Re: [ECD] Recordings of music

Here's my REVISED AND IMPROVED third dance, one that's fun and easy, <= /DIV>

and the music is great -- my own arrangement of a familiar traditional= tune=20 (and

song) from South Wales, a song often used in the Christmas=20 Revels. I've called

it a few times, and it's worked well. Others have called it= at=20 various venues,

before Christmas AND at other times, and it has been well received=20 (with

suggestions for some minor improvements). Below is my updated,=20 improved

*really* final version. The major change, taking hands = immediately=20 before the

balances and half circles. (And the optional dips have been = deleted=20 entirely.)

Also below are the words of the song (with accented syllables in=20 CAPS). Since

the dance is easy, calls can stop early, allowing singers to join in = on the=20 ending,

if that's what you'd like to do, with one or more stanzas.

In a separate posting, I'll send the music (unchanged). If = that=20 posting doesn't work,

email me off-line, and I'll snail mail it to you. Enjoy. = Let me=20 know if you call it, and

any comments. And let me know, off-line, if you're = interested=20 in my first two dances,

Crazy Marie (Part A, great Norwegian tune; Part B, Jonathan Jensen) = and=20 Trip to

Africa (music by William Billings)

Sol Weber

. GOWER WASSAIL -- = English=20 style dance

. Long ways, duple,=20 proper. Waltz, lively

Dance, Sol=20 Weber &= nbsp; =20 Tune, trad'l (South Wales)

Dotted quarter =3D=20 144 = =20 30 seconds per repetition

A 2 note intro

Meas.

1-2 Facing corner, take hands in circle (in groups of= =20 4)

. &= nbsp; =20 BALANCE IN AND OUT

3-4 CIRCLE LEFT , =20 halfway

5-6 MEN LEAD THRU , = between=20 women (Men keep hands)

7-8 MEN =20 CAST around partner (Back to = opposite=20 side)

9-10 Again, facing corner, take hands in= =20 circle

. &= nbsp; &= nbsp;=20 BALANCE IN AND OUT

11-12 CIRCLE LEFT , halfway

13-14 WOMEN LEAD THRU=20 , between men

15-16 WOMEN =20 CAST around partner (Back to opposite side. =20 Everyone is back home.)

. &= nbsp; &= nbsp; =20 All FACE NEIGHBOR

17-20 Starting with neighbor,= =20 FOUR CHANGES, circular hey (No hands, lively, 3 counts per change)

21-23 ARM =20 RIGHT with neighbor, 1-1/2 X

24 =20 PROGRESS to new neighbor.

. &= nbsp; =20 All =20 FACE NEW CORNER (= Those=20 progressing on the inside FLIP to face in.)

1. a WASsail, a WASsail, thruOUT all this TOWN.

. Our CUP it is WHITE and our ALE it is=20 BROWN.

. Our WASsail is MADE of the GOOD ale and=20 TRUE,

. Some NUTmeg and GINger, it's the BEST we can= =20 BREW

CHORUS Fol the DOL, fol the dol de DOL, fol the dol de DOL,= fol=20 the dol de DEE.

. Fol the DER-o, fol the DAD-dy, sing TU-re-lye-O=20 !!

2. Our WASsail is MADE of he ELderberry BOUGH,

. and SO, my good NEIGHbors, we'll DRINK= unto=20 THOU.

. BeSIDES all on EARTH, you'll have = APples in=20 STORE;

. pray LET us come IN, for it's COLD by = the=20 DOOR, CHORUS

3. There's a MASter and a MIStress sitting DOWN by = the=20 FIRE

. while WE poor wasSAILers do WAIT in = the=20 MIRE.

. And IF we're aLIVE for anOTHER=20 New YEAR,

. perHAPS we may CALL and see WHO do = live=20 HERE, CHORUS

4. We KNOW by the MOON that we ARE not too SOON,

. we KNOW by the SKY that we ARE not too= =20 HIGH,

. we KNOW by the STAR(S) that= we=20 ARE not too FAR,

. we KNOW by the GROUND that we ARE = within=20 SOUND, CHORUS

Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little=20 time"
25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after=20 11am)
SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums,=20
& misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com;
web: http://roundz.tripod.com &= nbsp;=20 (DON'T use 'www')

----__JNP_000_0e61.4cb0.04ca-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 16:45:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:41:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: [ECD] Gower Wassail music FINAL To: Sol Weber CC: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01M26RU1WYXYCPPIDI-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sol -- The last time you posted a PDF to the mailing list I asked you privately not to do that. This time, I'm telling you (and everybody else) in public. DO NOT SEND PDFS TO THE ECD LIST. DO NOT SEND ATTACHED FILES OF ANY KIND. It messes up the digests something fierce. You have a website that you plug in your signature file. Put your PDFs up on your website and post a link. -- Alan (getting cranky about it now) -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:01:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 20:31:35 -0400 From: Alan Simpson-Vlach Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Goose and Gridiron Message-ID: <20060508203135.5f000bc5.simplach-AT-sbcglobal.net> References: <20060503014020.21493.qmail-AT-web33001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone tell me, please: What is the original source of the dance Goose and Gridiron. Maybe Tom Cook says in "Come Let's Be Merry," but that book is long out of print, and I don't have a copy. My source is "A Cook's Tour" by John Stapledon, who only says "from 18th century sources". Many thanks, --Alan =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alan Simpson-Vlach simplach-AT-sbcglobal.net 734.528.3501 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:18:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: winston-AT-slac.stanford.edu CC: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:14:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [ECD] Gower Wassail music FINAL Message-ID: <20060508.211455.3324.16.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sol Weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu OOPS My humble apologies. It's been a while and I forgot. I attached a memo to my pc, so it won't happen again. I'll send a post saying that interested parties should contact me off line. Sol On Mon, 08 May 2006 17:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes: > Sol -- > > The last time you posted a PDF to the mailing list I asked you > privately not to > do that. > > > This time, I'm telling you (and everybody else) in public. > > DO NOT SEND PDFS TO THE ECD LIST. DO NOT SEND ATTACHED FILES OF ANY > KIND. > It messes up the digests something fierce. > > You have a website that you plug in your signature file. Put your > PDFs up on > your website and post a link. > > -- Alan (getting cranky about it now) > > > > -- > ========================================================================= ====== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 > Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park > CA 94025 > ========================================================================= ====== > > > Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; web: http://roundz.tripod.com (DON'T use 'www') ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:30:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: BHFrancis-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <30a.42bedb2.31914a86-AT-aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:29:42 EDT Subject: Re: [ECD] Goose and Gridiron To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147138182" -------------------------------1147138182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Alan. Come Let's Be Merry has this to say about "The Goose and Gridiron" -- The date 1768 is given. Source: Thompson's Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances, Volume 3 (where it is almost certainly a reprint from C and S Thmpson's "Twenty Four Dances for the year 1768") Note: "The Installation" published in "Again Let's Be Merry" is from the same source, probably originating in the annual collection for 1772. Beverly Francis -------------------------------1147138182 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings, Alan.

Come Let's Be Merry has this to say about "The Goose and Gridiron" --

The date 1768 is given.

Source: Thompson's Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country=20 Dances, Volume 3 (where it is almost certainly a reprint from C and S Thmpso= n's=20 "Twenty Four Dances for the year 1768")

Note: "The Installation" published in "Again Let's Be Merry" is f= rom=20 the same source, probably originating in the annual collection for 1772.

Beverly Francis

-------------------------------1147138182-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:38:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:37:06 -0400 Subject: [ECD] Gower Wassail music Message-ID: <20060508.213709.3324.17.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sol Weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Hi, all Re the music for the Gower Wassail dance, the pdf with the notation *can't* be posted here -- my error ; sorry, Alan. If you'd like me to send it to you directly, please contact me, off-line. solweber-AT-juno.com Thanks. Sol Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; web: http://roundz.tripod.com (DON'T use 'www') ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 19:49:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <446010F1.1000802-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:48:01 -0700 From: Kalia Kliban Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Goose and Gridiron References: <20060503014020.21493.qmail-AT-web33001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060508203135.5f000bc5.simplach-AT-sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Simpson-Vlach wrote: > Can anyone tell me, please: > > What is the original source of the dance Goose and Gridiron. > > Maybe Tom Cook says in "Come Let's Be Merry," but that book is long out > of print, and I don't have a copy. My source is "A Cook's Tour" by > John Stapledon, who only says "from 18th century sources". I've recently been trying to find a number of dances that seem to only have been printed in that book. What's the likelihood of it ever being reprinted? Kalia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 22:12:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605090611.k496BgSl013147-AT-nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Goose and Gridiron Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:11:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67337.D9DF8DA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67337.D9DF8DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom used to call at the Neston club on the Wirral (20 miles or so from Liverpool). I dance at the nearby Stockton Heath club, and it was one of our members, Olive Taylor, who lent him the book. I've seen it, very fragile, you hardly dare open it wide enough to read. _____ From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of BHFrancis-AT-aol.com Sent: 09 May 2006 02:30 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Goose and Gridiron Greetings, Alan. Come Let's Be Merry has this to say about "The Goose and Gridiron" -- The date 1768 is given. Source: Thompson's Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances, Volume 3 (where it is almost certainly a reprint from C and S Thmpson's "Twenty Four Dances for the year 1768") Note: "The Installation" published in "Again Let's Be Merry" is from the same source, probably originating in the annual collection for 1772. Beverly Francis ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67337.D9DF8DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tom used to call at the Neston club on the Wirral (20 miles or so = from Liverpool). I dance at the nearby Stockton Heath club, and it was one of our members, = Olive Taylor, who lent him the book. I’ve seen it, very fragile, you = hardly dare open it wide enough to read.

From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu = [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of = BHFrancis-AT-aol.com
Sent: 09 May 2006 = 02:30
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: [ECD] Goose = and Gridiron

Greetings, = Alan.

Come Let's Be Merry has this to say about "The Goose and Gridiron" = --

The date 1768 is = given.

Source: Thompson's Compleat Collection of 200 = Favourite Country Dances, Volume 3 (where it is almost certainly a reprint = from C and S = Thmpson's "Twenty Four Dances for the year = 1768")

Note: "The = Installation" published in "Again Let's Be Merry" is from the same source, probably originating in the annual collection for = 1772.

Beverly = Francis

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67337.D9DF8DA0-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 03:18:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:16:51 -0300 From: Lydia Hedge Subject: [ECD] Dance in Montreal? To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4461A173.30694.3E1782-AT-lydiahedge.accesswave.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi An ECD dancer from Halifax will be in Montreal from Sat/13 May to Thurs/18 May. Can you recommend any classes or events he could attend? ECD, SCD, Contra, whatever... (I do have the URL for the Montreal Branch of the RSCDS, but am having trouble finding anything for ECD) Thank you for your help. Lydia Hedge Nova Scotia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:32:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:30:49 -0400 From: DavBarnert-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu CC: solweber-AT-juno.com Subject: [ECD] Re: Gower Wassail music MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <338DD110.553440F1.0ACF18CD-AT-aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sol wrote: > Hi, all Re the music for the Gower Wassail dance, the pdf with > the notation *can't* be posted here -- my error ; sorry, Alan. Actually, I was able, with the appropriate software, to reconstruct the pdf from the gobbledy-gook that appeared in the digest. But Alan's right: don't do that. > If you'd like me to send it to you directly, please contact me, > off-line. Why not post it on http://roundz.tripod.com and post a link here (again, as Alan says)? David Barnert Albany NY ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:14:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <446354A2.2060709-AT-uiuc.edu> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:13:38 -0500 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD List Subject: [ECD] Playford Ball June 3 in Urbana, IL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Central Illinois English Country Dancers Invite You To An E N G L I S H C O U N T R Y D A N C E P L A Y F O R D B A L L The Central Illinois English Country Dancers will be holding their eleventh annual Playford Ball on Saturday, June 3, 2006. The dance will be held at the Channing-Murray Foundation, 1209 W. Oregon, Urbana, IL, on the campus of the University of Illinois. There will be a warm up session from 7:00 to 8:00, followed by the Ball from 8:00 to 11:00 p.m. Fans and finery are encouraged and we will be holding a costume contest to choose a King and Queen of the Ball. There will be a $7.00 suggested donation to help cover the cost of the Ball. We ask that dancers wear soft soled shoes to help protect the dance floor and avoid using excessive amounts of perfume for the benefit of others who may experience allergic reactions. All dances will be taught and all lovers of English Country dance and music are welcome. Dances Led By: Susan Burt, Jane Hobgood and Jonathan Sivier Music Provided By: The Flatland Consort Dance Warmup: 7:00 p.m. Playford Ball: 8:00 to 11:00 p.m. Date: Saturday, June 3, 2006 Location: Channing-Murray Foundation, 1209 W. Oregon, Urbana, IL Suggested Donation: $7.00 There will be refreshments at the break and a party following the dance. Dances for the evening will be taken from the following list: Apley House - duple minor longways The Geud Man of Ballangigh - duple minor longways A Grand March - longways Heartsease - 2 couples facing Hunsdon House - 4 couples in a square Indian Queen - duple minor longways Jenny Pluck Pears - 3 couples in a circle La Tempete - 4 facing 4 longways The Queen's Jig - duple minor longways Shrewsbury Lasses - 3 couples longways Soldier's Joy - Sicilian circle Steamboat - duple minor longways Waltz Cotillion - 4 couples in a square Waterfall Waltz - Sicilian circle The instructions for the dances are on the webpage (see below). However all dances will be taught so it isn't necessary to know them in advance. For further information contact Jonathan Sivier (jsivier-AT-uiuc.edu) at 217/359-8225 or Jane Hobgood (jbhob-AT-shout.net) at 217/328-1708 or check the webpage at - http://www.prairienet.org/ciecd/playford.html For those who are interested, the Urbana Country Dancers will be holding a contra dance on Friday, June 2, from 8 to 11 p.m. at the Phillips Recreation Center, 505 W. Stoughton, Urbana. Scott Meyer will be calling and the band will be Chicory. ----- Jonathan Sivier Beckman Institute Flight Simulation Lab jsivier AT uiuc.edu Home Page: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jsivier/www/ ----- Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? A: It depends on what dance you call. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:44:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20060511173557.036216d0-AT-pop.together.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:40:58 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Tom & Val Medve Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] "Across the Lake" Dance Weekend June 23-25, 2006 in Vermont MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Please join the Burlington Country Dancers in northern Vermont for the group's 4th annual ECD Weekend, June 23-25, 2006: "Across the Lake" Dance Weekend English Country Dancing on the Vermont Side of Lake Champlain with Bruce Hamilton & Bare Necessities Elley-Long Music Center 223 Ethan Allen Ave., Colchester, Vermont, U.S.A. (near Burlington) FRI. JUNE 23 ~ 8pm to 11pm Dance for experienced dancers SAT. JUNE 24 ~ 10am to noon Dance musicians' workshop with Jacqueline Schwab By advance registration only Limited to 17 participants SAT. JUNE 24 ~ 1:30pm to 4:30pm Dance workshop for all SAT. JUNE 24 ~ 5pm Supper at nearby Chinese restaurant By advance registration only SAT. JUNE 24 ~ 8pm to 11pm Gala dress-up dance party for all SUN. JUNE 25 ~ 9:30am to 12:30pm Brunch at home of local dancers, with (weather permitting) dancing outdoors from 11:30 to 12:30 Prices, registration form, directions, lodging suggestions (with discounts offered by some hotels/motels if booked before 5/23), dance lists, tune list (for Jacqueline's musicians' workshop) can be found at: www.peter.burrage.net/dance and www.thedancegypsy.com/events/acrossTheLake.pdf Registration forms must be received by June 9th, but tickets for individual sessions/events (with the exception of the musicians' workshop and the Chinese supper) can be purchased at the door. No one will be turned away. The hall is very spacious (with wonderful acoustics and a very nice, comfortable wooden floor). Val Medve Essex Junction, Vermont 802-899-2378 valandtom-AT-together.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 18:07:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 18:54:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: [ECD] Classes at dance camp To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii ECDers -- I'm looking for programming advice for my daily English session at a summer camp. I've always thought this was an interesting topic, but now it's personally pretty relevant to me. I've been hired for my first camp; I'll be the English dance leader at BACDS Family Week this summer, with a daytime class (for 13+), some participation in a caller workshop, and some evening dance responsibilities. I figure that a class for teenagers and adults who want to be there will be within my skills, and I shouldn't need massive class management skills or the ability to handle more-fleeting attention spans than I have to deal with now. I guess there are going to be some neophytes, some folks (young and old) who've been doing English at Family Week for years, but otherwise not doing much of it, and maybe a few old pros. There's only one session (per day; six sessions altogether). It seems that it's going to have to simultaneously fulfill the functions of being "Intro to English" for newcomers and satisfying the jones of the experienced English dancers who've gotten to camp and want good stuff. And of course I'll need to be flexible enough to deal with whoever actually turns up for the class, so it's not as though I could put my programs to bed before camp. (I've been going to Mendocino English Week for many, many years, and paid attention to how classes are put together, but there - when there are three or four ECD classes a day- one class doesn't have to fulfill so many goals, and I can see better how to put those together.) Any thoughts or advice? I'd be happy to hear from dancer and musicians as well as leaders, and interested in hearing about what doesn't work as well as what does. Thanks! -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:04:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-ID: <9f2ca42475c5ce77ccedbcaaf98e9a2d-AT-alumni.williams.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carl Friedman Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:03:02 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Great question. I'm sure it will inspire a lot of interesting replies. Here are some random thoughts, from one who has been to innumerable such sessions as a dancer, but who has never led one. (Though, incidentally, also a "local" caller and musician). I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as if it were an evening dance rather than a "class": SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the verbal teaching to a minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn something, so much the better, but it's not school, even if we speak of "classes." Don't start the sessions with a "set dance" unless you can be confident that nearly everyone who will eventually be there is there at the beginning - allow stragglers to add on to the end of longways dances, even if that seems to encouraging campers to come late. Know what your musicians are good at playing and like to play - even at a dance camp, the talent may be high, but it will be variable. Bring out the best in the musicians, and the dancers will appreciate them and you more. If you want to work on a given challenging dance or dances through the week, keep in mind that tastes vary a lot in ECD, so it's easy to choose a dance to do every day that many of your dancers hate. Either pick a sure winner, or be a very good salesman. One tactic that I think works is having a "something" dance of the day each day: e.g., one traditional dance each day, or one "nobody around here does it but it's a great dance" dance each day, or whatever. If there's a "show and tell" at the end of the week, and the organizers ask you to have your class prepare a dance to perform, find a way to decline. Nobody wants to watch ECD. And I don't think I'm the only dancer who doesn't want to do the same dance repeatedly to prepare it for performance for people who don't want to watch it. You can probably lead an "English dance for all" at the show and tell session instead. Carl On May 11, 2006, at 9:54 PM, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > ECDers -- > > I'm looking for programming advice for my daily English session at a > summer > camp. > > I've always thought this was an interesting topic, but now it's > personally > pretty relevant to me. I've been hired for my first camp; I'll be the > English > dance leader at BACDS Family Week this summer, with a daytime class > (for 13+), > some participation in a caller workshop, and some evening dance > responsibilities. > > I figure that a class for teenagers and adults who want to be there > will be > within my skills, and I shouldn't need massive class management skills > or the > ability to handle more-fleeting attention spans than I have to deal > with now. > > I guess there are going to be some neophytes, some folks (young and > old) who've > been doing English at Family Week for years, but otherwise not doing > much of > it, and maybe a few old pros. There's only one session (per day; six > sessions > altogether). It seems that it's going to have to simultaneously > fulfill the > functions of being "Intro to English" for newcomers and satisfying the > jones of > the experienced English dancers who've gotten to camp and want good > stuff. And > of course I'll need to be flexible enough to deal with whoever > actually turns > up for the class, so it's not as though I could put my programs to bed > before > camp. > > (I've been going to Mendocino English Week for many, many years, and > paid > attention to how classes are put together, but there - when there are > three or > four ECD classes a day- one class doesn't have to fulfill so many > goals, and I > can see better how to put those together.) > > Any thoughts or advice? I'd be happy to hear from dancer and > musicians as well > as leaders, and interested in hearing about what doesn't work as well > as what > does. > > Thanks! > > -- Alan > > -- > ======================================================================= > ======== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 > Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA > 94025 > ======================================================================= > ======== > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:43:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605120542.k4C5gZGD026334-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Classes at dance camp Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:42:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can I put in a plea for a little blind-eye-turning. I don't know anything about your summer camps but dance at some UK weekend festivals. At one of these there was a problem of uncontrolled children in the ceilidhs, a risk to everyone. So it was decide to start the evening with a family ceilidh, then an adult ceilidh. So at the appointed time the caller announce that the children should be taken away to bed, but as an aside made it clear that he wouldn't notice well behaved, sensible dancers. A nine year old with dancing parents may well be a better dancer than a fourteen year old dragged unwilling by parents, or come with friends to muck about. And if they cause problems the age limit is there. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Sent: 12 May 2006 02:55 To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Classes at dance camp ECDers -- I'm looking for programming advice for my daily English session at a summer camp. I've always thought this was an interesting topic, but now it's personally pretty relevant to me. I've been hired for my first camp; I'll be the English dance leader at BACDS Family Week this summer, with a daytime class (for 13+), some participation in a caller workshop, and some evening dance responsibilities. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:20:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.1.20060511233815.02b872a0-AT-mail.oz.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 00:21:12 -0700 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Paul / Victoria Bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Show and Tell for ECD References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <9f2ca42475c5ce77ccedbcaaf98e9a2d-AT-alumni.williams.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mo said: >If there's a "show and tell" at the end of the week, and the organizers >ask you to have your class prepare a dance to perform, find a way to >decline. Nobody wants to watch ECD. Gee, Nonesuch English Country Dancers is just two weeks from performing at Folklife. I sure hope you are wrong about nobody wanting to watch us!. Actually we usually have 200-400 people watching, even though there are a dozen other stages and a few participatory dances at the same time. Of course we don't do the same longways dance umpteen times-- three at the max and then transition to another dance. And we do a lot of set dances, especially those with several different verses. I have taken to heart Gene's comment that "from the audience's point of view there are two English dances-- the longways one and the other one" and worked to find a lot of variety of formation, meter, mode, energy, pattern. There are plenty of dances that look good without any tinkering for a demo, and kids really like pattern dances-- they like the teamwork of them. Because English footwork is easy, (walk, skip, slide, set) kids can learn some of the really beautiful dances of the repertoire quite easily. My 4th-6th graders performed Gathering Peascods, Thady You Gander and Rufty Tufty. (Rufty Tufty looks really good with the sets at right angles to each other so the lead outs lead into the space made by the next set). My middle school classes did Newcastle (lovely patterns, three very different verses) and Fandango (exuberant skipped heys and slipping circles) My advanced classes (dancing 3 hours a week for a year and a half) performed Dutch Crossing and Step Stately along with a Spanish Jota, Philippine Tinikling, Chinese Ribbon Dance, Hungarian Verbunk, Irish jig, Indian story-dance with mudras, a Bulgarian Chestoto, and a silent kolo from Bosnia. With all that to choose from, one of my fellow teachers liked Dutch Crossing the best. (He was the math teacher of course, and English dance is math made visible. ) In my experience (34 years teaching dance to kids as artist-in-=schools) kids sometimes don't see the point of working toward perfection for its own sake. But if others are invited to see them dance, they will make sure they aren't going to look foolish by making mistakes. Teens think in groups, want to dress like their friends, do everything the same as their friends and this makes them fabulous ensemble dancers. They will get the circles round, make sure their friends all arm with the correct arm, and get the goof-off to shape up ("come ON, Michelle, get it right or you're going to make us all look dumb!"). They would rather dance with their best friend than with a good dancer, so the weaker dancers often have a peer tutor helping them out. They dance with more enthusiasm than adults, and with better ensemble. Their joy shows. >And I don't think I'm the only >dancer who doesn't want to do the same dance repeatedly to prepare it >for performance .... The good news is that kids learn a lot faster than adults and remember what they learn a lot better. All you have to do is get their attention and teach it once. Then review it once and let them dance it. They'll remember it five years from now. So drilling them on dances is a mistake-- they'll get bored and the magic will go out of it. Catch them while the dance is still new enough to be magic for the demo, even if it isn't perfect. The excitement of performance produces a state of intense focus that will get them through just fine. >You can probably >lead an "English dance for all" at the show and tell session instead. This is another option of course. But I'd be inclined to let them do a demonstration. They know they are learning neat stuff and they are proud of themselves and want to show off for parents. Don't call it a performance-- that's scary. Call it "show and tell" or a "demonstration." Oh yeah, someone just said to me this week (explaining why they didn't go to May Day) "There are only two Morris dances-- the stick one and the hanky one. It's boring to watch." But if show and tell at camp has a varity of styles, the boredom goes away. One English set dance with interesting patterns. One Morris dance with stick bashing. One clog dance with noise and rhythms and complex footwork. The fact that there are different classes with different dance types builds in the variety for the demo. And its family camp. What parent doesn't want to watch their kid perform? Victoria ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 04:05:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:04:33 -0400 From: susan-AT-elegantarts.org Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp Message-ID: <20060512120433.GB4553-AT-lse.org> References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <9f2ca42475c5ce77ccedbcaaf98e9a2d-AT-alumni.williams.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl Friedman wrote: > I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as if it were an evening > dance rather than a "class": > SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the verbal teaching to a > minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn something, so much the > better, but it's not school, even if we speak of "classes." Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance camps/weeks. I don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other forms of dance I do, the last thing I want is hours of social dancing each day. I want that in the evening (every evening, very late, with informal afters for those of us with more energy), but in the classes, I want to learn something that I will NOT be able to pick up through osmosis at regular dances and weekend festivals - complex patterns, new research, exotic steps, whatever. I'd prefer this to be material that is socially useful: something I can take back home and teach and do with others, or have the opportunity to do at regular dances. It's possible to tip too far toward the challenging and exotic side - a highly-choreographed uber-quadrille for thirty-two with difficult steps and a very long pattern is something that will just never get done again after that one week - but I'd be disappointed to go to dance camp and just do the same stuff I can do at home. Maybe I'm just different. That wouldn't be a first on this list. :) Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 05:23:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:23:43 -0400 From: Dorothy Olsson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Historical Dance Classes, Memorial Day Weekend To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20060512092307.01b388a0-AT-pop-server.nyc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Join us for=85 Renaissance and Baroque Dance Classes at the Amherst Early Music Memorial Day Weekend Workshop Friday, May 26 to Monday, May 29, 2006 Dominican College, Orangeburg, New York Late Morning Class (11:00-12:30): Theme and Variations (For Recorder Players and Dancers, taught by Pat Petersen & Dorothy=20 Olsson). Theme and variations: the art of embellishment in Renaissance=20 dance and dance music. Pavanes, galliards, bransles and passo e mezzo. For= =20 dancers, learning and refining the basic steps and exploring their=20 variations; for musicians, exploring ways to vary and ornament not just the= =20 tune but also bass and internal lines. (3 classes: Saturday, Sunday, Monday) Early Afternoon Class (2:00-3:30): La Forlana (For Dancers, taught by Dorothy Olsson). Learn this charming Baroque dance= =20 for two dancers from the original notation. (2 classes: Saturday, Sunday) Late Afternoon Class (3:45-5:15): Courtly Pastimes (For Dancers, taught by Dorothy Olsson). Enjoyable dances from the courts=20 of late Renaissance Europe, including the pavan, branles, and Italian=20 balletto. (2 classes: Saturday, Sunday) No prior experience is necessary for these dance classes; bring comfortable= =20 shoes. Other events at the workshop include a faculty concert, English country=20 dancing, instrumental and vocal ensemble classes, notation and more! Faculty concert: Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque & contemporary music=20 performed by workshop faculty; Sunday, May 28, 8:00 pm at St. Paul's=20 Methodist Church; Corner of South Broadway & Division Avenue, South Nyack,= =20 NY; Free to workshop participants ($12 for others) Tuition: $150 for all 7 dance classes, or $25 per individual class. Room & Board: $215 covers three days' room with nine meals, etc. Single=20 rooms cost $60 extra. All off-campus students pay a $20 campus-use fee. For more information, email us at: info-AT-amherstearlymusic.org Amherst Early Music, Inc., 47 Prentiss St., Watertown, MA 02472 617-744-1324; fax: 617-744-1327; www.amherstearlymusic.org ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 05:45:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060512134407.68536.qmail-AT-web31315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:44:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Melanie Axel-Lute Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'll have to agree with Susan. At camp, evenings are for social dancing, but I really do expect to get something out of a class. Family camp may be different. But even with a mixed bag of dancers, by age and experience, you can work on style. You can make time for questions. ("Why do we do this?") You can do a dance (not more than one a day!) that takes longer to teach. I'd have a theme a day--giving weight, casting, whatever, and do dances to work on that. It can still be mostly dancing, but why not take the opportunity to encourage better dancing? Melanie --- susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG wrote: > On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl > Friedman wrote: > > I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as > if it were an evening > > dance rather than a "class": > > SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the > verbal teaching to a > > minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn > something, so much the > > better, but it's not school, even if we speak of > "classes." > > Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance > camps/weeks. I > don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other > forms of dance I do, > the last thing I want is hours of social dancing > each day. I want > that in the evening (every evening, very late, with > informal afters > for those of us with more energy), but in the > classes, I want to learn > something that I will NOT be able to pick up through > osmosis at > regular dances and weekend festivals - complex > patterns, new research, > exotic steps, whatever. > > I'd prefer this to be material that is socially > useful: something I > can take back home and teach and do with others, or > have the > opportunity to do at regular dances. It's possible > to tip too far > toward the challenging and exotic side - a > highly-choreographed > uber-quadrille for thirty-two with difficult steps > and a very long > pattern is something that will just never get done > again after that > one week - but I'd be disappointed to go to dance > camp and just do the > same stuff I can do at home. > > Maybe I'm just different. That wouldn't be a first > on this list. :) > > Susan > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 05:53:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <446492ED.3020401-AT-bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:51:41 -0400 From: Judith Simon Muse Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can see that you do have a challenge, and will have to be flexible depending on who shows up. I'm going to put my "two-cents" in only from my own personal experience; I have been an English Country dancer for over 25 years, and attended many weeks of camp, and also lots of weekends. Even as a novice, my main reason for attending such events was to become a better dancer. I want to push the limits of my skills, try new and hard stuff, and hear what the teachers have to say about dancing. I still remember some of the things that my early teachers said, and I continue find these teachings inspiring. I get a huge high when I feel that I've taken what was said, and successfully put it into my dancing. Often, focusing on basic good dancing habits in the context of specific dances is the most satisfying thing to me. I expect the daytime classes to be substantially different than the evening dances, and I would be quite disappointed if a class was mostly dancing with little else. I do love the evening dances, but expect something different in each context. Good luck. Judith Simon Muse ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:02:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060512135800.41151.qmail-AT-web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:58:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Deborah Denenfeld Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1192302269-1147442280=:40271" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1192302269-1147442280=:40271 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with Susan. I attend several dance camps each year and primarily it is for the classes. I expect to learn new material or refine my skills among others who take classes seriously (but have fun at it). The age range of 13 and up will not usually mean mostly kids, but a good mix. I often like one challenging dance per workshop per day, if that helps. Good luck! Deborah susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG wrote: On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl Friedman wrote: > I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as if it were an evening > dance rather than a "class": > SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the verbal teaching to a > minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn something, so much the > better, but it's not school, even if we speak of "classes." Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance camps/weeks. I don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other forms of dance I do, the last thing I want is hours of social dancing each day. I want that in the evening (every evening, very late, with informal afters for those of us with more energy), but in the classes, I want to learn something that I will NOT be able to pick up through osmosis at regular dances and weekend festivals - complex patterns, new research, exotic steps, whatever. I'd prefer this to be material that is socially useful: something I can take back home and teach and do with others, or have the opportunity to do at regular dances. It's possible to tip too far toward the challenging and exotic side - a highly-choreographed uber-quadrille for thirty-two with difficult steps and a very long pattern is something that will just never get done again after that one week - but I'd be disappointed to go to dance camp and just do the same stuff I can do at home. Maybe I'm just different. That wouldn't be a first on this list. :) Susan --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --0-1192302269-1147442280=:40271 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I agree with Susan. I attend several dance camps each year and primarily it is for the classes. I expect to learn new material or refine my skills among others who take classes seriously (but have fun at it). The age range of 13 and up will not usually mean mostly kids, but a good mix. I often like one challenging dance per workshop per day, if that helps. Good luck!

Deborah

susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG wrote:

On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl Friedman wrote:
> I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as if it were an evening
> dance rather than a "class":
> SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the verbal teaching to a
> minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn something, so much the
> better, but it's not school, even if we speak of "classes."

Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance camps/weeks. I
don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other forms of dance I do,
the last thing I want is hours of social dancing each day. I want
that in the evening (every evening, very late, with informal afters
for those of us with more energy), but in the classes, I want to learn
something that I will NOT be able to pick up through osmosis at
regular dances and weekend festivals - complex patterns, new research,
exotic steps, whatever.

I'd prefer this to be material that is socially useful: something I
can take back home and teach and do with others, or have the
opportunity to do at regular dances. It's possible to tip too far
toward the challenging and exotic side - a highly-choreographed
uber-quadrille for thirty-two with difficult steps and a very long
pattern is something that will just never get done again after that
one week - but I'd be disappointed to go to dance camp and just do the
same stuff I can do at home.

Maybe I'm just different. That wouldn't be a first on this list. :)

Susan

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --0-1192302269-1147442280=:40271-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:19:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <44649934.9080104-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:18:28 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp References: <200605120542.k4C5gZGD026334-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mo wrote: > Can I put in a plea for a little blind-eye-turning. I don't know anything > about your summer camps but dance at some UK weekend festivals. At one of > these there was a problem of uncontrolled children in the ceilidhs, a risk > to everyone. So it was decide to start the evening with a family ceilidh, > then an adult ceilidh. So at the appointed time the caller announce that the > children should be taken away to bed, but as an aside made it clear that he > wouldn't notice well behaved, sensible dancers. This isn't actually an issue at BACDS Family Camp. The segregation of the kids from the adults is handled really masterfully. There's plenty of time for everyone-in-the-family activities, and plenty of time for the grown-ups to dance together too. Which leads me to my point. Alan, my take on Family Camp is that you're not going to find a lot of people complaining that your class has failed to sufficiently advance their ECD skills. This isn't English Week, and the people who come to Family Week aren't the self-selected high-end dancers that you get there. Some of them might be, but there's a real consciousness among the campers that this camp is about being people with kids, not about being super dancers. I would expect a pretty minimal number of eyes rolling heavenwards if you decide you need to call "Indian Queen" or "Sellenger's Round." The main feeling that pervades those adult classes, in my view, is a lot less "Look, here we are doing an extremely complicated dance that we'd never get the opportunity to do back home," and more like "Look, here we are actually dancing and nobody is screaming at us or making us listen to knock-knock jokes." -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:22:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060512142128.4206.qmail-AT-web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:21:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article in CDSS News To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1981479027-1147443688=:98608" --0-1981479027-1147443688=:98608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey, Allison - Enjoyed your thorough and detailed Maypole article (though I'd love to know what 'pagan sex' is and how it differs). I wondered why you didn't have anything about the historic/religious linkage between the Maypole and Yggdrasil or Irminsul. Your 'Origin of the Maypole' was limited to the British Isles, ignoring the Norse/Germanic/Saxon roots. Also, your 'dismissal-as-baloney' conclusions seemed unnecessarily disrespectful & dismissive. Symbolism, after all, is in the eye of the beholder. All symbolism are invented. Eggs & bunnies, decorated trees & mistletoe, crucifixes and swastikas, for example, have differing meanings to different religions. Anyway, I enjoyed it, especially as I prepare to teach a Maypole dance tomorrow (using Sellenger's Round) as part of a Beltane celebration. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent Demon Prince (retired) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --0-1981479027-1147443688=:98608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hey, Allison -

Enjoyed your thorough and detailed Maypole article (though I'd love to know what 'pagan sex' is and how it differs).

I wondered why you didn't have anything about the historic/religious linkage between the Maypole and Yggdrasil or Irminsul. Your 'Origin of the Maypole' was limited to the British Isles, ignoring the Norse/Germanic/Saxon roots.

Also, your 'dismissal-as-baloney' conclusions seemed unnecessarily disrespectful & dismissive. Symbolism, after all, is in the eye of the beholder. All symbolism are invented. Eggs & bunnies, decorated trees & mistletoe, crucifixes and swastikas, for example, have differing meanings to different religions.

Anyway, I enjoyed it, especially as I prepare to teach a Maypole dance tomorrow (using Sellenger's Round) as part of a Beltane celebration.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
Demon Prince (retired)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

--0-1981479027-1147443688=:98608-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:02:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4464A347.9030504-AT-uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:01:27 -0500 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <9f2ca42475c5ce77ccedbcaaf98e9a2d-AT-alumni.williams.edu> <20060512120433.GB4553-AT-lse.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG wrote: > On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl Friedman wrote: > >>I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as if it were an evening >>dance rather than a "class": >>SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the verbal teaching to a >>minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn something, so much the >>better, but it's not school, even if we speak of "classes." > > Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance camps/weeks. I > don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other forms of dance I do, > the last thing I want is hours of social dancing each day. I want > that in the evening (every evening, very late, with informal afters > for those of us with more energy), but in the classes, I want to learn > something that I will NOT be able to pick up through osmosis at > regular dances and weekend festivals - complex patterns, new research, > exotic steps, whatever. I agree with Susan. In a workshop at a dance weekend or week I prefer to learn new things, that can be applied when I get home. While you need to balance the talking/dancing during the workshop to make sure there is sufficient dancing, I feel this is the time to point out those details that often get passed over during an evening's dance. One suggestion for organizing the class. I've had some luck leading a week long class for high school students. These were mostly novices so you will need to make modifications, but here is what I did. On the first day we did an introduction to the basics of ECD. Then on subsequent days we concentrated on particular formations. One day it was small set dances, on another day longways dances, on another circles, squares on another. Also I chose a couple of dances to do every day of the week so that by the end of the week the kids were able to do them without calls, and with some very nice style as well I might add. Jonathan ----- Jonathan Sivier Beckman Institute Flight Simulation Lab jsivier AT uiuc DOT edu Home Page: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jsivier/www/ ----- Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? A: It depends on what dance you call. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:54:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:53:02 -0400 From: Ruth Scodel Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp Message-ID: <4301CD96C4B6A827EFD17626-AT-astr-ah5180a-018.dhcp.lsa.umich.edu> References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like Carl, I have been to a lot of ECD classes at Family Week (Buffalo Gap), so I speak from experience. One question I have is about "want to be there." At Buffalo Gap, there were periods when all the teenagers had to be in a class. That meant that "want to be there" was qualified. Some of them would rather do ECD than whatever else was on offer, but that didn't mean they were enthusiasts. So the schedule you are on really matters. If your class is at the same time as a draw for teenagers, your class will be easier in some ways. Carl is right that people don't want to watch ECD at a dance week where they have all been dancing it themselves every evening, unless it's really special, and you don't want to spend the time to have something really special at a Family Week. This has nothing to do with whether demos work well on some other occasions. Second, those who have said that you want to learn something at a class are right. I have often found the ECD frustrating because I didn't really learn anything. Third, however, those who have said that you can't do a lot of style work at a class at family week are also right. At least some of the teenagers will be pretty experienced dancers, but they are often not very patient with a lof of teaching. So, a few tips: Teenagers tend (of course this is a generalization) not to like slow and elegant dances. Don't do more than one a session. (One exception is "Smithy Hill," which they like a lot if it is played in a very bluesy style; at Buffalo Gap they called it "the sexy dance"). But they don't mind slightly difficult dances, if they can see the fun and they aren't overtaught. "Gude Man of Cambridge" was a big, big hit one year. Actually, they often like challenges about being in the right place (a class on using momentum to find your way might go over). They don't like dances where one couple stands around a lot. They like dances where they can be wild and crazy. "Yellow stockings" is a favorite. A theme for each class could work well. Maybe an old dance and a dance that does some really interesting variation on one of its figures. Themes that I have never seen and would really be helpful at a family week would be how to combine craziness and being on time, or how to dance in a way that is fun both for the overenergetic teenager and the folks with arthritis. Ruth S --On Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:54 PM -0700 Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > ECDers -- > > I'm looking for programming advice for my daily English session at a > summer camp. > > I've always thought this was an interesting topic, but now it's personally > pretty relevant to me. I've been hired for my first camp; I'll be the > English dance leader at BACDS Family Week this summer, with a daytime > class (for 13+), some participation in a caller workshop, and some > evening dance > responsibilities. > > I figure that a class for teenagers and adults who want to be there will > be within my skills, and I shouldn't need massive class management skills > or the ability to handle more-fleeting attention spans than I have to > deal with now. > > I guess there are going to be some neophytes, some folks (young and old) > who've been doing English at Family Week for years, but otherwise not > doing much of it, and maybe a few old pros. There's only one session > (per day; six sessions altogether). It seems that it's going to have to > simultaneously fulfill the functions of being "Intro to English" for > newcomers and satisfying the jones of the experienced English dancers > who've gotten to camp and want good stuff. And of course I'll need to be > flexible enough to deal with whoever actually turns up for the class, so > it's not as though I could put my programs to bed before camp. > > (I've been going to Mendocino English Week for many, many years, and paid > attention to how classes are put together, but there - when there are > three or four ECD classes a day- one class doesn't have to fulfill so > many goals, and I can see better how to put those together.) > > Any thoughts or advice? I'd be happy to hear from dancer and musicians > as well as leaders, and interested in hearing about what doesn't work as > well as what does. > > Thanks! > > -- Alan > > -- > ========================================================================= > ====== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, > Menlo Park CA 94025 > ========================================================================= > ====== > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:08:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "allisonthompson-AT-juno.com" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:06:17 GMT To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article in CDSS News Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary="--__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M" Message-ID: <20060512.090656.744.9317-AT-webmail65.nyc.untd.com> ----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Hi Tom Thanks for the comments. It is true that my paper & my hopefuly-forthcom= ing book are focused on the celebration of the Anglo-American maypole. I= know that there are a few Swedes & Norskis in places like Minnesota, wh= o have similar but different customs, but I wasn't looking at them. Let's see, with regard to connection of the English maypole to Yggdrasil= ....well, where's the source? And I don't mean somebody like dear Sir Ja= mes Frazer averring same in The Golden Bough (or, indeed, any similar av= owal by any other nineteenth- or early twentieth century folklorist). I = mean a dated, historical document written by somebody in England who say= s, in effect, " we put up a maypole in my village this year and every ye= ar because we are Yggdrasil-believers." There's been too much detailed h= istorical work in diaries, letters and parish records in the last 20 yea= rs for such a smoking gun to go unnoticed. = True, perhaps the "symbolism is baloney" statement was a tad over the to= p; I noticed that I had to wipe the spittle off the keyboard and it hasn= 't been the same since. I wouldn't care if the books & websites that I c= ited said things like "Today, in my village we believe that the weaving = of the maypole's ribbons represents the lengthening of the days", but w= hat really makes me rabid are the books aimed at elementary school teach= ers (I think I cited 2 of them in the footnote) that say, that such-and-= such was absolutely TRUE in "The Olden Days" (like the statement about t= he maidens of each village having a different weaving pattern, or that b= reaking the ribbons brought bad luch to the crops. False false false fal= se.). This stuff--however momentarily charming--is on a par with the old= morris Beansetting tale. = Symbolilsm is an issue when it is forced upon one, and children are a pa= rticularly vulnerable target: as a result, in my kidgs' school not only = are Xmas carols that refer to Jesus or Bethlehem excised in favor of vag= ue ditties about lights and candles, but at Thanksgiving the kids don't = even make Indian headdresses & those turkeys that you draw of the outlin= e of your hand and fingers, as this is somehow deemed disrespectful to N= ative Americans. This is an extreme, but not unusual, response. I'm just= asking that the maypole get the same respect, and not get burdened by s= entimental claptrap.Calling it a phallic symbol or averring that the wea= ving of the ribbons represents the travelling down the birth canal is th= e lamentably-enduring legacy of those 19th century folklorists and we sh= ould actively protest against it. = Allison Thompson = = Hey, Allison - Enjoyed your thorough and detail= ed Maypole article (though I'd love to know what 'pagan sex' is and how = it differs). I wondered why you didn't have anything about the historic/= religious linkage between the Maypole and Yggdrasil or Irminsul. Your '= Origin of the Maypole' was limited to the British Isles, ignoring the No= rse/Germanic/Saxon roots. Also, your 'dismissal-as-baloney' conclusions = seemed unnecessarily disrespectful & dismissive. Symbolism, after all, = is in the eye of the beholder. All symbolism are invented. Eggs & bunn= ies, decorated trees & mistletoe, crucifixes and swastikas, for example,= have differing meanings to different religions. Anyway, I enjoyed it, e= specially as I prepare to teach a Maypole dance tomorrow (using Sellenge= r's Round) as part of a Beltane celebration. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent Demon Prince (retired) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one t= hat's already here. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* = ----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/html

Hi Tom

Thanks for the comments. It is true that my paper & my hopefuly-f= orthcoming book are focused on the celebration of the Anglo-American may= pole. I know that there are a few Swedes & Norskis in places like Mi= nnesota, who have similar but different customs, but I wasn't looking at= them.

Let's see, with regard to connection of the English maypole to Yggdra= sil....well, where's the source? And I don't mean somebody like dear Sir= James Frazer averring same in The Golden Bough (or, indeed, any similar= avowal by any other nineteenth- or early twentieth century folklorist).= I mean a dated, historical document written by somebody in England= who says, in effect, " we put up a maypole in my village this year and = every year because we are Yggdrasil-believers." There's been too much de= tailed historical work in diaries, letters and parish records in the las= t 20 years for such a smoking gun to go unnoticed.

True, perhaps the "symbolism is baloney" statement was a tad over the= top; I noticed that I had to wipe the spittle off the keyboard and it h= asn't been the same since. I wouldn't care if the books & websites t= hat I cited said things like "Today, in my village we = believe that the weaving of the maypole's ribbons represents the lengthe= ning of the days", but what really makes me rabid are the books ai= med at elementary school teachers (I think I cited 2 of them in the foot= note) that say, that such-and-such was absolutely TRUE in "The Olden Day= s" (like the statement about the maidens of each village having a differ= ent weaving pattern, or that breaking the ribbons brought bad luch to th= e crops. False false false false.). This stuff--however momentarily char= ming--is on a par with the old morris Beansetting tale.

Symbolilsm is an issue when it is forced upon one, and children are a= particularly vulnerable target: as a result, in my kidgs' school not on= ly are Xmas carols that refer to Jesus or Bethlehem excised in favor of = vague ditties about lights and candles, but at Thanksgiving the kids don= 't even make Indian headdresses & those turkeys that you draw of the= outline of your hand and fingers, as this is somehow deemed disres= pectful to Native Americans. This is an extreme, but not unusual, respon= se. I'm just asking that the maypole get the same respect, and not get b= urdened by sentimental claptrap.Calling it a phallic symbol or averring = that the weaving of the ribbons represents the travelling down the birth= canal is the lamentably-enduring legacy of those 19th century folk= lorists and we should actively protest against it.

Allison Thompson

Hey, Allison -

Enjoyed your thorough and detailed Maypole article (though I'd= love to know what 'pagan sex' is and how it differs).

I wondered why you didn't have anything about the historic/rel= igious linkage between the Maypole and Yggdrasil or Irminsul. Your= 'Origin of the Maypole' was limited to the British Isles, ignoring= the Norse/Germanic/Saxon roots.

Also, your 'dismissal-as-baloney' conclusions seemed unnecessa= rily disrespectful & dismissive. Symbolism, after all, is in t= he eye of the beholder. All symbolism are invented. Eggs &am= p; bunnies, decorated trees & mistletoe, crucifixes and swastikas, f= or example, have differing meanings to different religions.

Anyway, I enjoyed it, especially as I prepare to teach a Maypo= le dance tomorrow (using Sellenger's Round) as part of a Beltane ce= lebration.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
Demon Prince (= retired)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation form= erly known as the United States!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Want kids? Do = this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already = here.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* =

----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:40:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:39:02 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I think the suggestion was that a class should "stand on its own." Since one doesn't have 3 hours to work with, it takes some effort for those of us who rarely teach at camps to achieve what we would like to in 1/3 the time or less. Nonetheless, a 45 minute class should still be organized to have an intro, a build up, a climax, and an ending just as we try to achieve in an evening dance. As a leader or as a dancer, I always notice and feel unsatisfied with a workshop that has clearly been ended on account of time rather than intent. Also, many of the things we would like to teach can be approached from within the context of the music and dancing (in my opinion with far greater effect than when relying primarily on words). I think the maxim of keeping words to a minimum and dancing to a maximum is appropriate in the dance camp setting and does not preclude teaching/learning a lot more than one expects to at a regular dance. (-that is, unless the class has been billed as a discussion or lecture and even then it wouldn't hurt to end with a last waltz or something to tie us back to the common thread that joins us). I guess what I find peculiar is the implication that we attend evening dances for "social" reasons and not for "learning" (which is something we go to camp to do). I would expect that a good leader puts both into every event but varies the dynamic to suit the participants. If the majority seem eager to learn stylistic pointers, we modify the presentation to give them that. If they crave intricate figures, we give them more involved dances but we don't omit an ending dance (e.g., final waltz). On the other hand I think what Susan, Melanie, and others are saying is that at a camp, people want something different from the same old same old. When I am on staff, I write to individuals in the area where most of the campers come from and ask what they love, what they are sick of, and what they expect to get out of the camp and then put together a program accordingly. I try to give them some of what will make it a worthwhile experience for them and at the same time try to stay true to my own philosophies and leadership style (since that is presumably part of the reason I was invited). (Actually I do the same when I travel to call a regular evening dance in a different locality). Cheers, Cammy Melanie Axel-Lute Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 12-May-2006 09:44 AM Please respond to ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message Size: 4.7 KB To ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu cc Subject Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp I'll have to agree with Susan. At camp, evenings are for social dancing, but I really do expect to get something out of a class. Family camp may be different. But even with a mixed bag of dancers, by age and experience, you can work on style. You can make time for questions. ("Why do we do this?") You can do a dance (not more than one a day!) that takes longer to teach. I'd have a theme a day--giving weight, casting, whatever, and do dances to work on that. It can still be mostly dancing, but why not take the opportunity to encourage better dancing? Melanie --- susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG wrote: > On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl > Friedman wrote: > > I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as > if it were an evening > > dance rather than a "class": > > SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the > verbal teaching to a > > minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn > something, so much the > > better, but it's not school, even if we speak of > "classes." > > Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance > camps/weeks. I > don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other > forms of dance I do, > the last thing I want is hours of social dancing > each day. I want > that in the evening (every evening, very late, with > informal afters > for those of us with more energy), but in the > classes, I want to learn > something that I will NOT be able to pick up through > osmosis at > regular dances and weekend festivals - complex > patterns, new research, > exotic steps, whatever. > > I'd prefer this to be material that is socially > useful: something I > can take back home and teach and do with others, or > have the > opportunity to do at regular dances. It's possible > to tip too far > toward the challenging and exotic side - a > highly-choreographed > uber-quadrille for thirty-two with difficult steps > and a very long > pattern is something that will just never get done > again after that > one week - but I'd be disappointed to go to dance > camp and just do the > same stuff I can do at home. > > Maybe I'm just different. That wouldn't be a first > on this list. :) > > Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:56:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--505410179 Message-ID: <8A37693E-C5A1-4143-80EC-E4DC1F3909CF-AT-alumni.williams.edu> From: Carl Friedman Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:56:37 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu --Apple-Mail-1--505410179 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Perhaps I should clarify some of my initial comments, in response to several responses. I agree very much with what Cammy says (below). Interestingly, I received two separate off-list responses expressing 100% agreement with what I said. I was specifically speaking of the "13 and up", Family Week only ECD of the day session that Alan said he will be leading. There is little or no issue of parents wanting to watch their kids perform at show and tell. Show-and-tell at the end of Family Week is not a folk festival with performances of long-prepared dance for the attending masses. I, too, want to learn something at dance camp sessions. I want to bring home dances and ideas for my own home dance. But at a Family Week session for everyone of all skill levels, ages 13 and up, if that happens, great, but I think the focus should be on a fun session that makes ECD converts of the dancers who don't do much ECD, or never did it before. They will learn plenty from a session that maximizes dancing and minimizes walk-throughs and standing and listening. And the experienced dancers will enjoy that too. If you concentrate on the teaching, you will reinforce the image of ECD as all teaching and no dancing. Save most (no, not all) of the teaching for English Week. I was first turned on to ECD at Family Week (Pinewoods) 1985. I had thought it boring and stuffy at home prior to that. Then I danced to Bare Necessities in C# and my world has never been the same since. If anyone taught me something intentionally at the ECD session that week I don't remember it. It was the music and dance. Had I stood around listening to a "teacher," I might never have done ECD again. Carl On May 12, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Campbell Kaynor wrote: > I think the suggestion was that a class should "stand on its own." > Since one doesn't have 3 hours to work with, it takes some effort for > those of us who rarely teach at camps to achieve what we would like > to in > 1/3 the time or less. Nonetheless, a 45 minute class should still be > organized to have an intro, a build up, a climax, and an ending > just as we > try to achieve in an evening dance. As a leader or as a dancer, I > always > notice and feel unsatisfied with a workshop that has clearly been > ended on > account of time rather than intent. > > Also, many of the things we would like to teach can be approached from > within the context of the music and dancing (in my opinion with far > greater effect than when relying primarily on words). I think the > maxim of > keeping words to a minimum and dancing to a maximum is appropriate > in the > dance camp setting and does not preclude teaching/learning a lot > more than > one expects to at a regular dance. (-that is, unless the class has > been > billed as a discussion or lecture and even then it wouldn't hurt to > end > with a last waltz or something to tie us back to the common thread > that > joins us). > > I guess what I find peculiar is the implication that we attend evening > dances for "social" reasons and not for "learning" (which is > something we > go to camp to do). I would expect that a good leader puts both into > every > event but varies the dynamic to suit the participants. If the majority > seem eager to learn stylistic pointers, we modify the presentation > to give > them that. If they crave intricate figures, we give them more involved > dances but we don't omit an ending dance (e.g., final waltz). > > On the other hand I think what Susan, Melanie, and others are > saying is > that at a camp, people want something different from the same old same > old. When I am on staff, I write to individuals in the area where > most of > the campers come from and ask what they love, what they are sick > of, and > what they expect to get out of the camp and then put together a > program > accordingly. I try to give them some of what will make it a worthwhile > experience for them and at the same time try to stay true to my own > philosophies and leadership style (since that is presumably part of > the > reason I was invited). (Actually I do the same when I travel to call a > regular evening dance in a different locality). > > Cheers, Cammy > > > > > > > Melanie Axel-Lute > Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > 12-May-2006 09:44 AM > Please respond to > ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > Message Size: 4.7 KB > > To > ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > cc > > Subject > Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp > > > > > > > I'll have to agree with Susan. At camp, evenings are > for social dancing, but I really do expect to get > something out of a class. Family camp may be > different. But even with a mixed bag of dancers, by > age and experience, you can work on style. You can > make time for questions. ("Why do we do this?") You > can do a dance (not more than one a day!) that takes > longer to teach. > I'd have a theme a day--giving weight, casting, > whatever, and do dances to work on that. It can still > be mostly dancing, but why not take the opportunity to > encourage better dancing? > Melanie > > --- susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG wrote: > >> On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl >> Friedman wrote: >>> I suggest treating each session, albeit short, as >> if it were an evening >>> dance rather than a "class": >>> SO... Keep the dancing time to a maximum, the >> verbal teaching to a >>> minimum. We go to camp for fun - if we learn >> something, so much the >>> better, but it's not school, even if we speak of >> "classes." >> >> Wow. That's not my motivation for going to dance >> camps/weeks. I >> don't go to ECD ones (so far), but for the other >> forms of dance I do, >> the last thing I want is hours of social dancing >> each day. I want >> that in the evening (every evening, very late, with >> informal afters >> for those of us with more energy), but in the >> classes, I want to learn >> something that I will NOT be able to pick up through >> osmosis at >> regular dances and weekend festivals - complex >> patterns, new research, >> exotic steps, whatever. >> >> I'd prefer this to be material that is socially >> useful: something I >> can take back home and teach and do with others, or >> have the >> opportunity to do at regular dances. It's possible >> to tip too far >> toward the challenging and exotic side - a >> highly-choreographed >> uber-quadrille for thirty-two with difficult steps >> and a very long >> pattern is something that will just never get done >> again after that >> one week - but I'd be disappointed to go to dance >> camp and just do the >> same stuff I can do at home. >> >> Maybe I'm just different. That wouldn't be a first >> on this list. :) >> >> Susan > --Apple-Mail-1--505410179 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Perhaps I should clarify some of = my initial comments, in response to several responses.=A0

I agree very much with what = Cammy says (below).=A0Interestingly, I received two separate off-list = responses expressing 100% agreement with what I said.=A0

I was specifically speaking = of the "13 and up", Family Week=A0only ECD of the day session that Alan = said he will be leading.=A0

There is little or no issue = of parents wanting to watch their kids perform at show and = tell.

Show-and-tell at the end of = Family Week is not a folk festival with performances of long-prepared = dance for the attending masses.=A0

I, too, want to learn = something at dance camp sessions. I want to bring home dances and ideas = for my own home dance. But at a Family Week session for everyone of all = skill levels, ages 13 and up, if that happens, great, but I think the = focus should be on a fun session that makes ECD converts of the dancers = who don't do much ECD, or never did it before. They will learn plenty = from a session that maximizes dancing and minimizes walk-throughs and = standing and listening. And the experienced dancers will enjoy that too. = If you concentrate on the teaching, you will reinforce the image of ECD = as all teaching and no dancing. Save most (no, not all) of the teaching = for English Week.=A0

I was first turned on to = ECD at Family Week (Pinewoods) 1985. I had thought it boring and stuffy = at home prior to that. Then I danced to Bare Necessities in C# and my = world has never been the same since. If anyone taught me something = intentionally at the ECD session that week I don't remember it. It was = the music and dance. Had I stood around listening to a "teacher," I = might never have done ECD again.=A0=A0

Carl

On May = 12, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Campbell Kaynor wrote:

I think the suggestion was that a class should = "stand on its own."
Since one doesn't have 3 = hours to work with, it takes some effort for
those of us who rarely teach at camps to achieve = what we would like to in
1/3 the time = or less. Nonetheless, a 45 minute class should still be
organized to have an intro, a build up, a climax, = and an ending just as we
try to = achieve in an evening dance. As a leader or as a dancer, I = always
notice and feel unsatisfied with = a workshop that has clearly been ended on
account = of time rather than intent.

Also, many of the things we = would like to teach can be approached from
within = the context of the music and dancing (in my opinion with far
greater effect than when relying primarily on = words). I think the maxim of
keeping words = to a minimum and dancing to a maximum is appropriate in the
dance camp setting and does not preclude = teaching/learning a lot more than
one expects = to at a regular dance. (-that is, unless the class has been
billed as a discussion or lecture and even then it = wouldn't hurt to end
with a last waltz or = something to tie us back to the common thread that
joins us).

I guess what I find peculiar is = the implication that we attend evening
dances = for "social" reasons and not for "learning" (which is something = we
go to camp to do). I would expect that a good = leader puts both into every
event but = varies the dynamic to suit the participants. If the majority
seem eager to learn stylistic pointers, we modify = the presentation to give
them that. If = they crave intricate figures, we give them more involved
dances but we don't omit an ending dance (e.g., = final waltz).

On the other hand I think what Susan, Melanie, and = others are saying is
that at a camp, people want = something different from the same old same
old. = When I am on staff, I write to individuals in the area where most = of
the campers come from and ask what they love, = what they are sick of, and
what they = expect to get out of the camp and then put together a program
accordingly. I try to give them some of what will = make it a worthwhile
experience for them and at = the same time try to stay true to my own
reason I was invited). (Actually = I do the same when I travel to call a
regular = evening dance in a different locality).

Cheers, = Cammy

Melanie = Axel-Lute <maxellute-AT-YAHOO.COM>
Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.s= tanford.edu
12-May-2006 09:44 AM
Please respond to
ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu<= /A>
Message Size: 4.7 KB

ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu<= /A>
cc

Re: [ECD] Classes at dance = camp

I'll = have to agree with Susan. At camp, evenings are
for social dancing, but I really do expect to = get
something out of a class. Family = camp may be
different. But even with a mixed = bag of dancers, by
age and experience, you can = work on style. You can
make time for questions. = ("Why do we do this?") You
can do a = dance (not more than one a day!) that takes
longer = to teach.
I'd have a theme a day--giving = weight, casting,
whatever, and do dances to work = on that. It can still
be mostly dancing, but why = not take the opportunity to
encourage = better dancing?
Melanie

--- susan-AT-ELEGANTARTS.ORG = wrote:

=
On Thu, May 11, 2006 at = 11:03:02PM -0400, Carl
Friedman wrote:
=
I suggest treating each = session, albeit short, as

if it = were an evening

dance = rather than a "class":
SO... Keep the dancing time = to a maximum, the

verbal = teaching to a

minimum. = We go to camp for fun - if we learn

something, so much the

better, but it's not school, = even if we speak of

Wow.=A0 = That's not my motivation for going to dance
camps/weeks.=A0 = I
don't go to ECD ones (so far), = but for the other
forms of dance I do,
the last thing I want is hours of social = dancing
each day.=A0 I want
that in the evening (every evening, very late, = with
informal afters
for those of us with more energy), but in = the
classes, I want to = learn
something that I will NOT be = able to pick up through
osmosis = at
regular dances and weekend festivals - = complex
patterns, new = research,
exotic steps, = whatever.

I'd prefer this to be material that is = socially
useful: something I
can take back home and teach and do with others, = or
have the
opportunity = to do at regular dances.=A0 = It's possible
to tip too far
toward the challenging and exotic side - a
highly-choreographed
and a very long
pattern is = something that will just never get done
again = after that
one week - but I'd be = disappointed to go to dance
camp and just = do the
same stuff I can do at = home.

Maybe I'm just different.=A0 That wouldn't be a = first
on this list.=A0 :)

Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:58:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article in CDSS News To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-867882987-1147456698=:38656" --0-867882987-1147456698=:38656 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'll see what I can find, but Christianity (like its predecessors and successors) has been particularly & cruelly brutal to the icons, documents, creations -- and especially followers -- of its vanquished competitors (the rise of Christianity wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing). It's more likely to find something in Iceland, Scandinavia or Germany than in England, anyway, I suspect. I recall seeing an statue in England that had Odin on one side and Jesus on the other, I think. Perhaps there are Saxon artifacts that lend credence to the possible ancient roots of the Maypole. I've also seen so many Roman & Asian phallic art pieces that it's very easy to see other contemporaneous (and contemporary!) religions having an equal fascination. Here's are some possibilities: http://www.kingarthurbanner.com/artifacts.htm Look for 'Irish King Statue?' http://www.eutopia.no/Volvewitch.htm I'm as opposed as you to false histories or puffed up claims, but what someone wishes to see in a candle, tree, cross or flower is really up to them and I take it all with a grain of salt anyway. I only raise a skeptical eyebrow when reviewing their 'documentation'. As for symbolism: Try to see Christmas through the eyes of a Jew or Thanksgiving through the eyes of a Navajo and perhaps you'll understand what it's like to be subjected to the constant pounding of someone else's religion. By the way, headdresses were not worn by indigenous people in the Northeast part of North America, but in the plains region, so they aren't even appropriate for *any* Thanksgiving re-creation. That's like building igloos in Florida. They may be 'vague ditties' to what you want to promote, to your Christian eyes & ears, but they're respectful of the diversity which is the modern US nation. I for one am glad that American children are being brought up to be aware of other religions...maybe it'll help them be more critical & skeptical of *all* of them. :) It makes it tougher to marginalize others when you see them as following 'one path among many, like me' rather than just 'different from me'. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent Demon Prince (retired) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ----- Original Message ---- From: "allisonthompson-AT-juno.com" To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:06:17 PM Subject: Re: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article in CDSS News Hi Tom Thanks for the comments. It is true that my paper & my hopefuly-forthcoming book are focused on the celebration of the Anglo-American maypole. I know that there are a few Swedes & Norskis in places like Minnesota, who have similar but different customs, but I wasn't looking at them. Let's see, with regard to connection of the English maypole to Yggdrasil....well, where's the source? And I don't mean somebody like dear Sir James Frazer averring same in The Golden Bough (or, indeed, any similar avowal by any other nineteenth- or early twentieth century folklorist). I mean a dated, historical document written by somebody in England who says, in effect, " we put up a maypole in my village this year and every year because we are Yggdrasil-believers." There's been too much detailed historical work in diaries, letters and parish records in the last 20 years for such a smoking gun to go unnoticed. True, perhaps the "symbolism is baloney" statement was a tad over the top; I noticed that I had to wipe the spittle off the keyboard and it hasn't been the same since. I wouldn't care if the books & websites that I cited said things like "Today, in my village we believe that the weaving of the maypole's ribbons represents the lengthening of the days", but what really makes me rabid are the books aimed at elementary school teachers (I think I cited 2 of them in the footnote) that say, that such-and-such was absolutely TRUE in "The Olden Days" (like the statement about the maidens of each village having a different weaving pattern, or that breaking the ribbons brought bad luch to the crops. False false false false.). This stuff--however momentarily charming--is on a par with the old morris Beansetting tale. Symbolilsm is an issue when it is forced upon one, and children are a particularly vulnerable target: as a result, in my kidgs' school not only are Xmas carols that refer to Jesus or Bethlehem excised in favor of vague ditties about lights and candles, but at Thanksgiving the kids don't even make Indian headdresses & those turkeys that you draw of the outline of your hand and fingers, as this is somehow deemed disrespectful to Native Americans. This is an extreme, but not unusual, response. I'm just asking that the maypole get the same respect, and not get burdened by sentimental claptrap.Calling it a phallic symbol or averring that the weaving of the ribbons represents the travelling down the birth canal is the lamentably-enduring legacy of those 19th century folklorists and we should actively protest against it. Allison Thompson Hey, Allison - Enjoyed your thorough and detailed Maypole article (though I'd love to know what 'pagan sex' is and how it differs). I wondered why you didn't have anything about the historic/religious linkage between the Maypole and Yggdrasil or Irminsul. Your 'Origin of the Maypole' was limited to the British Isles, ignoring the Norse/Germanic/Saxon roots. Also, your 'dismissal-as-baloney' conclusions seemed unnecessarily disrespectful & dismissive. Symbolism, after all, is in the eye of the beholder. All symbolism are invented. Eggs & bunnies, decorated trees & mistletoe, crucifixes and swastikas, for example, have differing meanings to different religions. Anyway, I enjoyed it, especially as I prepare to teach a Maypole dance tomorrow (using Sellenger's Round) as part of a Beltane celebration. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent Demon Prince (retired) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --0-867882987-1147456698=:38656 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I'll see what I can find, but Christianity (like its predecessors and successors) has been particularly & cruelly brutal to the icons, documents, creations -- and especially followers -- of its vanquished competitors (the rise of Christianity wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing). It's more likely to find something in Iceland, Scandinavia or Germany than in England, anyway, I suspect.

I recall seeing an statue in England that had Odin on one side and Jesus on the other, I think. Perhaps there are Saxon artifacts that lend credence to the possible ancient roots of the Maypole. I've also seen so many Roman & Asian phallic art pieces that it's very easy to see other contemporaneous (and contemporary!) religions having an equal fascination.

Here's are some possibilities:

http://www.kingarthurbanner.com/artifacts.htm Look for 'Irish King Statue?'

http://www.eutopia.no/Volvewitch.htm

I'm as opposed as you to false histories or puffed up claims, but what someone wishes to see in a candle, tree, cross or flower is really up to them and I take it all with a grain of salt anyway. I only raise a skeptical eyebrow when reviewing their 'documentation'.

As for symbolism: Try to see Christmas through the eyes of a Jew or Thanksgiving through the eyes of a Navajo and perhaps you'll understand what it's like to be subjected to the constant pounding of someone else's religion.

By the way, headdresses were not worn by indigenous people in the Northeast part of North America, but in the plains region, so they aren't even appropriate for *any* Thanksgiving re-creation. That's like building igloos in Florida.

They may be 'vague ditties' to what you want to promote, to your Christian eyes & ears, but they're respectful of the diversity which is the modern US nation.

I for one am glad that American children are being brought up to be aware of other religions...maybe it'll help them be more critical & skeptical of *all* of them. :) It makes it tougher to marginalize others when you see them as following 'one path among many, like me' rather than just 'different from me'.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
Demon Prince (retired)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

----- Original Message ----
From: "allisonthompson-AT-juno.com" <allisonthompson-AT-juno.com>
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:06:17 PM
Subject: Re: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article in CDSS News

Hi Tom

Thanks for the comments. It is true that my paper & my hopefuly-forthcoming book are focused on the celebration of the Anglo-American maypole. I know that there are a few Swedes & Norskis in places like Minnesota, who have similar but different customs, but I wasn't looking at them.

Let's see, with regard to connection of the English maypole to Yggdrasil....well, where's the source? And I don't mean somebody like dear Sir James Frazer averring same in The Golden Bough (or, indeed, any similar avowal by any other nineteenth- or early twentieth century folklorist). I mean a dated, historical document written by somebody in England who says, in effect, " we put up a maypole in my village this year and every year because we are Yggdrasil-believers." There's been too much detailed historical work in diaries, letters and parish records in the last 20 years for such a smoking gun to go unnoticed.

True, perhaps the "symbolism is baloney" statement was a tad over the top; I noticed that I had to wipe the spittle off the keyboard and it hasn't been the same since. I wouldn't care if the books & websites that I cited said things like "Today, in my village we believe that the weaving of the maypole's ribbons represents the lengthening of the days", but what really makes me rabid are the books aimed at elementary school teachers (I think I cited 2 of them in the footnote) that say, that such-and-such was absolutely TRUE in "The Olden Days" (like the statement about the maidens of each village having a different weaving pattern, or that breaking the ribbons brought bad luch to the crops. False false false false.). This stuff--however momentarily charming--is on a par with the old morris Beansetting tale.

Symbolilsm is an issue when it is forced upon one, and children are a particularly vulnerable target: as a result, in my kidgs' school not only are Xmas carols that refer to Jesus or Bethlehem excised in favor of vague ditties about lights and candles, but at Thanksgiving the kids don't even make Indian headdresses & those turkeys that you draw of the outline of your hand and fingers, as this is somehow deemed disrespectful to Native Americans. This is an extreme, but not unusual, response. I'm just asking that the maypole get the same respect, and not get burdened by sentimental claptrap.Calling it a phallic symbol or averring that the weaving of the ribbons represents the travelling down the birth canal is the lamentably-enduring legacy of those 19th century folklorists and we should actively protest against it.

Allison Thompson

Hey, Allison -

Enjoyed your thorough and detailed Maypole article (though I'd love to know what 'pagan sex' is and how it differs).

I wondered why you didn't have anything about the historic/religious linkage between the Maypole and Yggdrasil or Irminsul. Your 'Origin of the Maypole' was limited to the British Isles, ignoring the Norse/Germanic/Saxon roots.

Also, your 'dismissal-as-baloney' conclusions seemed unnecessarily disrespectful & dismissive. Symbolism, after all, is in the eye of the beholder. All symbolism are invented. Eggs & bunnies, decorated trees & mistletoe, crucifixes and swastikas, for example, have differing meanings to different religions.

Anyway, I enjoyed it, especially as I prepare to teach a Maypole dance tomorrow (using Sellenger's Round) as part of a Beltane celebration.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
Demon Prince (retired)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Welcome to EXXONISTAN, the nation formerly known as the United States!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Want kids? Do this horribly over-populated world a favor and adopt one that's already here.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

--0-867882987-1147456698=:38656-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:10:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Ric Goldman" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: [ECD] Evolution of Dance video (see if you can spot the 1.5 seconds of ECD) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:09:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://gorillamask.net/evdance.shtml ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:48:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:47:10 -0400 From: Ruth Scodel Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp Message-ID: <7CC4B164D3DA4B91362A38FC-AT-astr-ah5180a-018.dhcp.lsa.umich.edu> References: <10628166.1147455003416.JavaMail.root-AT-mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.ear thlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is right on the point that "this will make you look competent" is a ploy teenagers like, and that weight and timing do that. But my experience is that most teenagers don't like covering ground to use up time, and find very slow dances really boring. They like the "this will work anywhere" gimmick, but they hate doing a dance they don't enjoy in order to learn a skill. That will turn them off more than anything, and the thing we really don't want to do is to convince the young people that ECD is not fun. RS --On Friday, May 12, 2006 1:30 PM -0400 Read wrote: > I'll make a comment about teaching teens--older teens are likely to be at > a stage of learning "mastery" (in developmental psych lingo), and if you > frame the teaching in those terms, you may get their attention. "Even if > you screw everything else up, if you do X people will think you've been > dancing for years" is a ploy, if you believe it's true. > > The 'X' for me is two things: a) giving weight and b) being right on the > beat. The way to effectively teach both, especially the latter, is to do > some very slow dances. Make the point that "if you can do it in this > dance you can do it in any dance." It's also worth saying that (if there > is actually room) slow dances are an opportunity to take up lots of space. > > And if there were a c) for me, it would be dancing in synch with everyone > else--but I think that may be harder to convince teens of. > > (I'm not suggesting, of course, only doing slow dances in a session. But > do some, and introduce them as an opportunity to learn something > specific, which will serve them in all dances.) > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:13:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512190240.03781ec0-AT-mail.panix.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:03:37 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Evolution of Dance video (see if you can spot the 1.5 seconds of ECD) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-633C3FBB Whenever I click the "play" controls, I get an instant of "loading", then back to the play/share screen. I hate Flash. I hate Flash I hate Flash At 02:09 PM 5/12/06 -0400, you wrote: >http://gorillamask.net/evdance.shtml > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/335 - Release Date: 5/9/06 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/335 - Release Date: 5/9/06 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:24:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <446518F6.6060002-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:23:34 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp References: <01M2B1LCQY1GCP2TK0-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <4301CD96C4B6A827EFD17626-AT-astr-ah5180a-018.dhcp.lsa.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Scodel wrote: > Like Carl, I have been to a lot of ECD classes at Family Week (Buffalo > Gap), so I speak from experience. One question I have is about "want to be > there." At Buffalo Gap, there were periods when all the teenagers had to > be in a class. That meant that "want to be there" was qualified. Some of > them would rather do ECD than whatever else was on offer, but that didn't > mean they were enthusiasts. So the schedule you are on really matters. If > your class is at the same time as a draw for teenagers, your class will be > easier in some ways. Let me chime in again with some actual experience from the actual camp Alan is asking about. Generally, the adult ECD class is in the first-thing-after-breakfast time slot, and generally the camp managers are understanding about teenagers who just want to pass on doing anything at all at that time of day. (Would that they'd be equally understanding about adult staff members with those preferences...) So there aren't typically a lot of teens in the adult classes who are there because it's the least of the evils; there's a certain amount of openness to the general concept of teens just hanging out in their cabin, amusing themselves, and not making trouble. We can all probably imagine nightmare scenarios that might result from this sort of policy, but back in the day that I used to do the camp, they never did, because these were the GOOD kind of teenager. Anyway, my prediction would be that (a) the number of teenagers in the adult ECD class will be somewhere between vanishingly small and zero, and (b) any that are there will be really, truly motivated. Doesn't always happen, but that's the general rule. The adult classes are technically open to the 13+'ers, but they're mostly one of the opportunities for adults to hang out with each other and let someone else deal with the kids. Alan, you could see if Jerry (camp boss) agrees with me, but that was always my perception, FWIW. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:26:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:25:39 -0700 From: "Gary Shapiro" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Evolution of Dance video (see if you can spot the 1.5 seconds of ECD) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: I think he's doing the Pony for a few microseconds. That's a lot like setti= ng. (This URL might work better for some: Then again it might not.) On 5/12/06, Ric Goldman wrote: > http://gorillamask.net/evdance.shtml > > > --=20 Gary ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:49:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060512234823.17766.qmail-AT-web80222.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:48:23 -0700 (PDT) From: SUSAN Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Having danced around a few Maypoles and played for a few Maypole dances in my time, I very much enjoyed Allison's well-researched and entertaining article about the history of Maypoles in the United States. I was sorry to read the fault-finding with Allison's work, as the objections don't appear to be very logical or well-taken. So, at the risk of being found didactic, here are a few more points to consider: In regard to "igloos in Florida" - what do Plains Indians (or should that be the more politically correct if a tad too inclusive, "Native Americans of the Plains"), their headdresses, turkeys, the wrongs of Christianity towards other religions, Judaism, Navajos, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other such off-topic topics have to do with Maypoles? How do references to each of these oddly assorted cultural icons, religions and holy days support the theory that the historic Maypole in the United States had its origins as a recognized phallic symbol in the Dark Ages of continental Europe and Britain? Moving beyond American Indians, headdresses, etc. for the moment, the early missionary, Saint Augustine of Kent, is well-remembered for urging that pre-Christian British holy sites, notably standing stones, holy wells, and sacred mounds and groves, continue to be used for spiritual - and Christian - purposes for and by new converts to Christianity whenever possible. St. Augustine urged that churches be built in places already deemed holy, and that pre-Christian symbolism be incorporated into the architecture and rituals of the church whenever possible. St. Augustine's wise, inclusive, and gentle teaching was that as much in the religion of pre-Christian Britain was striving toward the good, then new Christian converts should be encouraged in what was good about their earlier religious beliefs and practices, even as they learned (and one hopes put into practice) the teachings of Christ. St. Augustine recognized that the transition to Christianity was eased by continuing the familiar whenever possible. Hundreds of years later, Charles Wesley did something very similar when he set hymns to dance music (when criticized for it, his response was, "Why should the Devil have all the pretty tunes?"). An enduring example of the practice of incorporating pre-Christian or secular symbols into the church would be carvings of "the Green Man", which can still be seen in early cathedrals and churches throughout England as well as in continental Europe. No longer portraying a pagan deity, the Green Man symbolizes the Christian God's gift of creation - life on the earth. He can also be viewed as symbolizing the "new birth" of Christian believers and the resurrection of Christ, as green returns to the earth in spring. With these examples in mind (and there are many others), it is not accurate to claim that early Christianity destroyed the symbols of the religions which preceded its introduction into Britain and Ireland. The symbols were not destroyed - just reinterpreted, or in other cases, more fully interpreted. As Tom notes, sometimes standing stones were converted to crosses. We have not only documentation for this sort of thing, we have the converted standing stones themselves. In regard to the church's role during the Dark Ages, Irish monks preserved manuscripts and books of all kinds, both religious and secular, during this time, as did monks on Lindisfarne, just off the coast of northeastern England. The church certainly did not cause the Dark Ages - the Dark Ages were preceded and precipitated by the fall of the Roman Empire to successive invasions of tribal peoples from Eastern Europe, resulting in the loss of organized government leadership and security for the peoples of the Roman Empire. The Dark Ages were not caused by persecution of anyone by the Christian Church, although the evil of such persecution followed in later years. None of this history of the Dark Ages or of the methods of the early church in winning new converts accounts for the recent claims for the supposed symbolism of the Maypole...claims which are yet to be documented by valid scholarly research, according to Allison, whose methods and work I completely respect. Sometimes, a standing stone is just a standing stone - and a Maypole is just a Maypole. Some of the arguments to the contrary make about as much sense as that notorious igloo in Florida... Thanks again, Allison. Susan Booker ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:26:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 15:25:09 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article It would be helpful to keep in mind the difference between something being "real" in the historical sense and being "real" in the cultural sense. One can say that much of the popular image of the Pilgrims and Indians sitting down to eat a turkey dinner is historically wrong, and at the same time say that it is true that the popular belief in that image is the reason Americans feel obliged to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. The historian and the folklorist will end up talking past each other if they don't recognize the difference between the historical reasons for the origins of a custom and the cultural reasons that cause people to practice it. If there are communities today that have Maypole dances (even if they didn't in the previous century) because some people in them believe that they are perpetuating some ancient, pre-Christian tradition, then that is the "real" reason they are doing it, even if their belief is founded on Victorian speculations. If there are dancers whose goal is to perform a maypole dance as closely as possible to the way it was done in a certain village, then discussions about the symbolism of maypole dancing are worthless to them and just get in the way of the "real" information about how the dance was originally done. Understanding the historical origin of a custom does not necessarily undermine its cultural validity. Using a custom as a symbol of community unity does not necessarily depend on whether it is founded on history or myth. The problem is that symbols do carry a lot of weight. Even something as innoculous as a Maypole can conjure up a religious debate that goes far beyond the weight that can be borne by a mere dance. Perhaps we should give it a rest. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:43:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu References: MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] 90th anniversary celebration continues at Arlington Mass, thanks for the memories! Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:42:46 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Dear Friends, The last event in the celebration of the Boston Centre's 90th anniversary is coming up this Wednesday, May 17 at the Park Avenue Congregational Church in Arlington Mass. In the Fall we had a party dance looking at the English side of the first 45 years of the Boston Center's life. This Wednesday we celebrate from 1960 to the present. This is about the period that Helene Cornelius has been leading our English program, so it is also a celebration of her contributions. Dances will be led by Barbara Finney and Rich Jackson; Barbara and Rich have been looking over dances popular during this period, so the program should be 45 years of favorites. Music will be provided by Peter Barnes, Mary Lea and Jacqueline Schwab. Besides dances from the past, we are also looking for memories from the past; if you have been part of the Boston Centre's activities during this period, we'd love to hear from you. Just send a couple of paragraphs to me at gaff-AT-neu.edu. Our plan is mount them all on poster boards so everybody can read them. Even if you can't come to the dance we'd love to read your contributions. This wednesday we will also have a dinner before the dance organized by Jacqueline Schwab. We meet at 6:15 at Sala Thai restaurant (i.e. the former Rama Thai), 1379 Massachusetts Ave. If you'd like to come, please e-mail Jacqueline at Jaspianist-AT-aol.com. The dance begins at 7:30 and goes to 10:30, for more details on location please see our web site at http://www.cds-boston.org/english- wed.html Best Regards, Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:50:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: Daniel J Walkowitz To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:49:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the record, hisrorians have long been interested in the history of cultural proactices and consider them no more or less 'real' than 'facts.' d/ Daniel J. Walkowitz Director of College Honors Professor of History and Metropolitan Studies New York University 285 Mercer St., 7th fl. New York, New York 10003 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Railing Date: Saturday, May 13, 2006 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article > It would be helpful to keep in mind the difference between something > being "real" in the historical sense and being "real" in the cultural > sense. One can say that much of the popular image of the Pilgrims and > Indians sitting down to eat a turkey dinner is historically wrong, > and at > the same time say that it is true that the popular belief in that > image is > the reason Americans feel obliged to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. The > historian and the folklorist will end up talking past each other if > theydon't recognize the difference between the historical reasons > for the > origins of a custom and the cultural reasons that cause people to > practiceit. > If there are communities today that have Maypole dances (even if > theydidn't in the previous century) because some people in them > believe that > they are perpetuating some ancient, pre-Christian tradition, then > that is > the "real" reason they are doing it, even if their belief is > founded on > Victorian speculations. > If there are dancers whose goal is to perform a maypole dance as > closelyas possible to the way it was done in a certain village, > then discussions > about the symbolism of maypole dancing are worthless to them and > just get > in the way of the "real" information about how the dance was > originallydone. > Understanding the historical origin of a custom does not necessarily > undermine its cultural validity. Using a custom as a symbol of > communityunity does not necessarily depend on whether it is founded > on history or > myth. The problem is that symbols do carry a lot of weight. Even > somethingas innoculous as a Maypole can conjure up a religious > debate that goes far > beyond the weight that can be borne by a mere dance. Perhaps we > should give > it a rest. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:48:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 16:46:42 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Yes Mary! I have often wondered why the absence of far historical precedent meant that I should not consider that my personal goal in dancing the Morris (for example) was to imbue the audience with good luck, prosperity, and fertility if that should be their inner desire. I didn't need historical validation to believe that this is why I dance and what I achieve through dancing the ritual dances. I didn't need to find some medieval manuscript to document that these dances were done for aught other than entertainment, to feel that our dances have a deeper meaning to many in the crowd. I can see it in the eyes and faces of the audience. I can see it in the vehemence of the farmer who asks us to dance for a neighbor because his barn burned down last year and he could use some good luck. And I can feel it in the beauty of the cycles of death and rebirth that are most evident in the Spring. The best part of the deeper meanings of the May celebrations and the ritual dances is that we needn't discuss nor debate them. For some, these celebrations are all superficial folk traditions without any mysterious underpinnings. For some of us, the spirits of the earth and the air speak to us loud and clear - calling us to reconnect with the ancient elements. Hence, for us these dances are magical, compelling, and gratifying. I need nothing more ancient than the elements of earth, fire, water, and air to feel there is historical validation. Fortunately, the celebrations of May, the Morris, and the countless other rituals of springtime can be fun and fulfilling to everyone no matter where they (as individuals) stand on these questions. Cheers, Cammy Mary Railing Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 13-May-2006 03:25 PM Please respond to ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message Size: 4.0 KB To ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu cc Subject Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article It would be helpful to keep in mind the difference between something being "real" in the historical sense and being "real" in the cultural sense. One can say that much of the popular image of the Pilgrims and Indians sitting down to eat a turkey dinner is historically wrong, and at the same time say that it is true that the popular belief in that image is the reason Americans feel obliged to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. The historian and the folklorist will end up talking past each other if they don't recognize the difference between the historical reasons for the origins of a custom and the cultural reasons that cause people to practice it. If there are communities today that have Maypole dances (even if they didn't in the previous century) because some people in them believe that they are perpetuating some ancient, pre-Christian tradition, then that is the "real" reason they are doing it, even if their belief is founded on Victorian speculations. If there are dancers whose goal is to perform a maypole dance as closely as possible to the way it was done in a certain village, then discussions about the symbolism of maypole dancing are worthless to them and just get in the way of the "real" information about how the dance was originally done. Understanding the historical origin of a custom does not necessarily undermine its cultural validity. Using a custom as a symbol of community unity does not necessarily depend on whether it is founded on history or myth. The problem is that symbols do carry a lot of weight. Even something as innoculous as a Maypole can conjure up a religious debate that goes far beyond the weight that can be borne by a mere dance. Perhaps we should give it a rest. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 14:36:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060514223446.86409.qmail-AT-web50806.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:34:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Giovanni De Amici Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] 2006 Southern California Ball - first announcement To: ecdlist ecdlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hear ye, hear ye, ... South Bay English Country Dance and the California Dance Cooperative present their 6th annual Southern California Ball:=20 Playford's Playford. Music will be provided by Interfolk Goes Baroque: Kriss Larson on spinet, Bonnie Insull on flute, Mary Ann Sereth on violin and Carter Dewberry on cello. Master of Ceremonies will be Giovanni De Amici The dances (all published by the Playfords during the 17th century) will be selected from this list: Anna Maria Bellamira the Chestnut Confess (*) De=92il Take the Wars Emperor of the Moon Fine Companion Grimstock Heartsease the Hole in the Wall=20 Jamaica Jenny Plucked Pears Kettledrum=20 Lull me Beyond Thee Never Love Thee More the Old Mole (*) Parson=92s Farewell (*) Playford=92s Circle Row Well Ye Mariners Sellenger=92s Round Sion House Wa=92 is Me, What Mun I Do? the Whirligig (*) (*) =3D for those who know; will not be prompted The Ball will take place at Bethany Lutheran Church, 4644 Clark Ave, Long Beach, CA on Saturday, 21 October, 2006, from 7:00 - 11:00 pm.=20 Festive attire ("your" definition) is encouraged. Advance Registration Required: =09 $28 for registrations postmarked by 28 September 2006 $35 for registrations postmarked after 28 September 2006 $12 for non-dancing guests a copy of the registration form is appended. Dances will be briefed and minimally prompted; dances will not be walked-through. =20 An afternoon practice session (same location as the Ball) will be offered to help attendees master the most unusual dances. All dancing attendees should know the basic figures of ECD, and be able to dance them when prompted. For further information, check the web page at www.geocities.com/sbecd/schedule/dancecalendar.html, or call Giovanni De Amici at (310) 793 7499 (calls between the hours of 9 a.m. and 9 p.m. (PDT) will be answered most cheerfully), or reply to the sender of this announcement (not to the entire list, please) A splendid time is promised to all. I look forward to seeing many of you there! Giovanni De Amici +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Registration form for SBECD's and CDC's 6th Annual Southern California Ball PLAYFORD's PLAYFORD Bethany Lutheran Church 4644 Clark Ave, Long Beach CA=20 21 October 2006 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +=20 NAME(s) - please print LEGIBLY First: ________________________ Last: ______________________________________ =20 First: ________________________ Last: ______________________________________ Street: ____________________________________________________________________ City: ____________________________ State: _______Zip: _________ Contact information (phone. or email, or ....): ____________________________ Reserve ______ places at $28 (if mailed before 28 September) Reserve ______ places at $35 (if mailed on or after 28 september) Reserve ______ places at $12 for non-dancers Overnight hospitality needed [ ] =20 Other special needs: _______________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= ___ I can provide overnight hospitality for __________ visitors=20 (Please provide your email address). I can help - before the Ball (food coordination/preparation, decoration =20 preparation, advertizing, ...) [ ] - on the day of the Ball (food serving, setup/takedown of =20 =20 decorations, ...) [ ] ENCLOSE A CHECK, payable to SBECD. Booklets will be mailed about 6 weeks before=20 the Ball, or one week after receiving the reservation, whichever is later. Your booklet is your admission ticket. Send registration to: Giovanni De Amici 19506 Flavian Ave Torrance CA 90503 More info including flyer with program of dances:=20 www.geocities.com/sbecd/playford06/playford_front.html for information about English Country Dance=20 in and around Los Angeles, please check our web page at: www.geocities.com/sbecd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 http://mail.yahoo.com=20 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:41:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu CC: scorrsin-AT-nypl.org, AllisonThompson-AT-juno.com Subject: RE: ECD Digest V1 #1978 Real History vs Fluffy Heritage Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:40:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It may feel nice, but it sure isn't history. Call it, otherwise, what you want. Please note that you are referring to what you are feeling in the present; and what you think you see in others, in the present; but you have no reasonable grounds to state that this is the way it always, or ever before, was. It's Heritage, it's Sentiment, but it's not history. Allison is 100% right. As usual. (Quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus, but not this time.) And I dance because I enjoy it, and I've morrised and sworded (?) because I enjoy being part of amateur performance practices -- not because I feel all awash with warm'n'fuzzy pseudo-paganism, invented in modern times, to make up for the real or alleged losses of community and faith associated with modernity. (See Max Weber's discussion of the "disenchantment of the world." Citation available on request.) Chacun a son gout, said the old lady when she kissed the cow; or, If horses were turnips, then beggars would eat. (I'm quoting a social worker from Burlington, VT, but that's another story.) Steve Corrsin Home: 531 Hill St Mamaroneck NY 10543 (914) 777-0282 ----Original Message Follows---- From: system-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-DIGEST-AT-ECD Subject: ECD Digest V1 #1978 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:00:04 PST Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 16:46:42 -0400 From: Campbell Kaynor Subject: [ECD] Allison's Maypole Article Message-ID: Yes Mary! I have often wondered why the absence of far historical precedent meant that I should not consider that my personal goal in dancing the Morris (for example) was to imbue the audience with good luck, prosperity, and fertility if that should be their inner desire. I didn't need historical validation to believe that this is why I dance and what I achieve through dancing the ritual dances. I didn't need to find some medieval manuscript to document that these dances were done for aught other than entertainment, to feel that our dances have a deeper meaning to many in the crowd. I can see it in the eyes and faces of the audience. I can see it in the vehemence of the farmer who asks us to dance for a neighbor because his barn burned down last year and he could use some good luck. And I can feel it in the beauty of the cycles of death and rebirth that are most evident in the Spring. The best part of the deeper meanings of the May celebrations and the ritual dances is that we needn't discuss nor debate them. For some, these celebrations are all superficial folk traditions without any mysterious underpinnings. For some of us, the spirits of the earth and the air speak to us loud and clear - calling us to reconnect with the ancient elements. Hence, for us these dances are magical, compelling, and gratifying. I need nothing more ancient than the elements of earth, fire, water, and air to feel there is historical validation. Fortunately, the celebrations of May, the Morris, and the countless other rituals of springtime can be fun and fulfilling to everyone no matter where they (as individuals) stand on these questions. Cheers, Cammy Mary Railing Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 13-May-2006 03:25 PM Please respond to ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message Size: 4.0 KB To ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu cc Subject Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article It would be helpful to keep in mind the difference between something being "real" in the historical sense and being "real" in the cultural sense. One can say that much of the popular image of the Pilgrims and Indians sitting down to eat a turkey dinner is historically wrong, and at the same time say that it is true that the popular belief in that image is the reason Americans feel obliged to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. The historian and the folklorist will end up talking past each other if they don't recognize the difference between the historical reasons for the origins of a custom and the cultural reasons that cause people to practice it. If there are communities today that have Maypole dances (even if they didn't in the previous century) because some people in them believe that they are perpetuating some ancient, pre-Christian tradition, then that is the "real" reason they are doing it, even if their belief is founded on Victorian speculations. If there are dancers whose goal is to perform a maypole dance as closely as possible to the way it was done in a certain village, then discussions about the symbolism of maypole dancing are worthless to them and just get in the way of the "real" information about how the dance was originally done. Understanding the historical origin of a custom does not necessarily undermine its cultural validity. Using a custom as a symbol of community unity does not necessarily depend on whether it is founded on history or myth. The problem is that symbols do carry a lot of weight. Even something as innoculous as a Maypole can conjure up a religious debate that goes far beyond the weight that can be borne by a mere dance. Perhaps we should give it a rest. ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #1978 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:05:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT-ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: scorrsin-AT-nypl.org Subject: Invention of tradition Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:04:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes, the topic of assumed, developed, cultural heritage is an area of historical study, as in "the invention of tradition." (Hobsbawm and Ranger 1983). That's as in, "The morris or sword dance plus mumming are symbols of solemn pagan religious ritual survivals, because we think they ought to be, because someone suggested it, and others repeated it, and they sure kind of look that way to us, and since we haven't bothered to consider the historical record, we figure we can say what we like." It's a very lively topic, in fact, about which I've written in this connection. The whole so-called "ritual or folk dance revival," in fact, falls into that area. (Even though the activities were not rituals, there were no distinguishable social categories that could be termed "folk" in the sense used, and they didn't represent actual revivals -- heck, at least they were dances, pretty much. One two three hop. On your right foot no no the other right foot.) But that doesn't mean that, ca.1000/ 1500/ 1600/ 1800 etc., for that matter BC or BCE as you prefer, morris dance/ maypole dance/ Sellinger's RoundandRoundandRoundWeGo were, in fact, solemn pagan religious ritual survivals. Steve Corrsin Home: 531 Hill St Mamaroneck NY 10543 (914) 777-0282 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:38:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] RE: ECD Digest V1 #1978 Real History vs Fluffy Heritage MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:36:51 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Steve, I DO feel I have reasonable grounds to suspect that others in history have felt as I do in the springtime. In fact I doubt there is much of anything I do, have done, felt, or danced that is truly unique in the sense that nobody else has thought of it, done it (assuming they had the means), felt it, or been in a similar state of mind and psyche. I would call THAT unreasonable! -- as unreasonable as anyone thinking they know ALL of history enough to say that anything is categorically "NOT history." We present as "history" what we know and can reasonably conjecture from evidence in the record but only the most arrogant would assert that there is nothing to add or learn about things that happened in the years gone by. I expect that this is why we continue to research and browse the record for undiscovered clues. 2 buts: 1) You missed my point. Neither Mary nor I were speaking of historical significance. I (and I think she) were speaking of how we feel and one of the reasons why we dance these dances TODAY (and perhaps for the last 30 plus years. This discussion reminds me of the debate about when and whether we call the revival of ECD that followed the work of C# "historical"). 2) I'll repeat what I said at the end of the previous Email: "Fortunately, the celebrations of May, the Morris, and the countless other rituals of springtime can be fun and fulfilling to everyone no matter where they (as individuals) stand on these questions." So I hope there is a place for both of us to enjoy dancing in the May. Cammy "Stephen D. Corrsin" Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 15-May-2006 02:40 PM Please respond to ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message Size: 7.7 KB To ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu cc scorrsin-AT-nypl.org, AllisonThompson-AT-JUNO.COM Subject RE: ECD Digest V1 #1978 Real History vs Fluffy Heritage It may feel nice, but it sure isn't history. Call it, otherwise, what you want. Please note that you are referring to what you are feeling in the present; and what you think you see in others, in the present; but you have no reasonable grounds to state that this is the way it always, or ever before, was. It's Heritage, it's Sentiment, but it's not history. Allison is 100% right. As usual. (Quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus, but not this time.) And I dance because I enjoy it, and I've morrised and sworded (?) because I enjoy being part of amateur performance practices -- not because I feel all awash with warm'n'fuzzy pseudo-paganism, invented in modern times, to make up for the real or alleged losses of community and faith associated with modernity. (See Max Weber's discussion of the "disenchantment of the world." Citation available on request.) Chacun a son gout, said the old lady when she kissed the cow; or, If horses were turnips, then beggars would eat. (I'm quoting a social worker from Burlington, VT, but that's another story.) Steve Corrsin Home: 531 Hill St Mamaroneck NY 10543 (914) 777-0282 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:51:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060515195028.20940.qmail-AT-web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:50:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Deborah Denenfeld Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Origin of Haymaker's Jig, etc. To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-650507902-1147722627=:20168" --0-650507902-1147722627=:20168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by nospam3.slac.stanford.edu id k4FJoS5d022334 Does anyone know the earliest reference to Haymaker's Jig or Strip the Wi= llow or Drops of Brandy? A source would be helpful. Thanks. =20 Deborah =09 --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2=A2= /min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --0-650507902-1147722627=:20168 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by nospam3.slac.stanford.edu id k4FJoS5d022334
Does anyone know the earliest reference to Haymaker's Jig or Strip t= he Willow or Drops of Brandy? A source would be helpful. Thanks.
<= div>

Deborah

Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2=A2= /min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. --0-650507902-1147722627=:20168-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:26:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009301c678a0$9e5af760$c68d4a0c-AT-compaq14453453> From: "Paul Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "ecd list" Subject: [ECD] Caller & musicians, Chicago area? Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:24:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks: Anyone know of an ECD caller & musicians in or near the Chicago area who could play for a wedding August 11th? My correspondent has already spoken with Tom Senior, who won't be available on that date. Thanks in advance! You should probably reply off-list. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:35:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060516093435.41519.qmail-AT-web53413.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:34:35 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Brady Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Re: Invention of tradition To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-574985989-1147772075=:40415" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-574985989-1147772075=:40415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aha - another person who is wise to the myths of 'tradition' - great posting. That's a hobbyhorse of mine and years ago I alerted the Scottish contingent on rec.folk-dancing about the invention of many aspects of Scottish culture, largely by the English. This included clan tartans (invented by 18'th c. Yorkshire/Lancashire mill owners wishing to increase trade and profits), Scottish Country Dancing (which in Scotland actually used to be called English Country Dancing or Dance Anglais), etc. See the book "Invention of Tradition" for more examples. Also in the book the invention of romantic Welsh culture (Druids et al) is also taken apart. But I think Ren. Fairs are the worst at portraying 'tradition' as true historical fact. We have them in the U.K. too. But apparently they are a million dollar / pound industry. So there are always going to be people willing to strecth the historical fact (even invent it) to earn big bucks by organising or appearing in same. But we get the 'invention of tradition' in the ECD scene in the UK. An example is the private publication of ECDs called 'Kentish Hops.' They were simply ECDs with names related to places in Kent (a county in the S.E. of England). Of course they actually had nothing to do with Kent itself or any kind of dance tradition there. Unfortunately these dances set a trend of creating county ECD 'traditions' based purely on the names of the dances - every single one invented. The English ceilidh scene also has a penchant for ascribing newly composed dances to regional county traditions where none actually ever existed. But there is a negative aspect to the invention of tradition. In Southern Ireland the whole aspect of any influence on the folk culture by the English is deliberately ignored - indeed erased. Whilst I do not for one minute condone what went on there over the millenia, there is a complete rejection of all things English - including English Country dancing and quadrilles of which there was a considerable amount up to the early 1900s. Even common English tunes are invariably renamed to obscure Irish ones. The penchant for the "Invention of Tradition" - deliberate or accidental - causes immense problems when trying to disentangle fact from fiction when researching folk topics CJB - London, UK (Just my 2d worth). "Stephen D. Corrsin" wrote: Yes, the topic of assumed, developed, cultural heritage is an area of historical study, as in "the invention of tradition." (Hobsbawm and Ranger 1983). That's as in, "The morris or sword dance plus mumming are symbols of solemn pagan religious ritual survivals, because we think they ought to be, because someone suggested it, and others repeated it, and they sure kind of look that way to us, and since we haven't bothered to consider the historical record, we figure we can say what we like." It's a very lively topic, in fact, about which I've written in this connection. The whole so-called "ritual or folk dance revival," in fact, falls into that area. (Even though the activities were not rituals, there were no distinguishable social categories that could be termed "folk" in the sense used, and they didn't represent actual revivals -- heck, at least they were dances, pretty much. One two three hop. On your right foot no no the other right foot.) But that doesn't mean that, ca.1000/ 1500/ 1600/ 1800 etc., for that matter BC or BCE as you prefer, morris dance/ maypole dance/ Sellinger's RoundandRoundandRoundWeGo were, in fact, solemn pagan religious ritual survivals. Steve Corrsin Home: 531 Hill St Mamaroneck NY 10543 (914) 777-0282 --0-574985989-1147772075=:40415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Aha - another person who is wise to the myths of 'tradition' - great posting.

That's a hobbyhorse of mine and years ago I alerted the Scottish contingent on rec.folk-dancing about the invention of many aspects of Scottish culture, largely by the English. This included clan tartans (invented by 18'th c. Yorkshire/Lancashire mill owners wishing to increase trade and profits), Scottish Country Dancing (which in Scotland actually used to be called English Country Dancing or Dance Anglais), etc. See the book "Invention of Tradition" for more examples.

Also in the book the invention of romantic Welsh culture (Druids et al) is also taken apart.

But I think Ren. Fairs are the worst at portraying 'tradition' as true historical fact. We have them in the U.K. too. But apparently they are a million dollar / pound industry. So there are always going to be people willing to strecth the historical fact (even invent it) to earn big bucks by organising or appearing in same.

But we get the 'invention of tradition' in the ECD scene in the UK. An example is the private publication of ECDs called 'Kentish Hops.' They were simply ECDs with names related to places in Kent (a county in the S.E. of England). Of course they actually had nothing to do with Kent itself or any kind of dance tradition there. Unfortunately these dances set a trend of creating county ECD 'traditions' based purely on the names of the dances - every single one invented. The English ceilidh scene also has a penchant for ascribing newly composed dances to regional county traditions where none actually ever existed.

But there is a negative aspect to the invention of tradition. In Southern Ireland the whole aspect of any influence on the folk culture by the English is deliberately ignored - indeed erased. Whilst I do not for one minute condone what went on there over the millenia, there is a complete rejection of all things English - including English Country dancing and quadrilles of which there was a considerable amount up to the early 1900s. Even common English tunes are invariably renamed to obscure Irish ones.

The penchant for the "Invention of Tradition" - deliberate or accidental - causes immense problems when trying to disentangle fact from fiction when researching folk topics

CJB - London, UK

(Just my 2d worth).

"Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

Yes, the topic of assumed, developed, cultural heritage is an area of
historical study, as in "the invention of tradition." (Hobsbawm and Ranger
1983). That's as in, "The morris or sword dance plus mumming are symbols of
solemn pagan religious ritual survivals, because we think they ought to be,
because someone suggested it, and others repeated it, and they sure kind of
look that way to us, and since we haven't bothered to consider the
historical record, we figure we can say what we like."

It's a very lively topic, in fact, about which I've written in this
connection. The whole so-called "ritual or folk dance revival," in fact,
falls into that area. (Even though the activities were not rituals, there
were no distinguishable social categories that could be termed "folk" in the
sense used, and they didn't represent actual revivals -- heck, at least they
were dances, pretty much. One two three hop. On your right foot no no the
other right foot.)

But that doesn't mean that, ca.1000/ 1500/ 1600/ 1800 etc., for that matter
BC or BCE as you prefer, morris dance/ maypole dance/ Sellinger's
RoundandRoundandRoundWeGo were, in fact, solemn pagan religious ritual
survivals.

Steve Corrsin
Home: 531 Hill St
Mamaroneck NY 10543
(914) 777-0282

--0-574985989-1147772075=:40415-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 04:03:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) References: <20060515195028.20940.qmail-AT-web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-ID: <08C9C952-902E-4427-A154-7BA839CFDCC6-AT-cox.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dustin & Christi Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Origin of Haymaker's Jig, etc. Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:02:41 -0500 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Try Trenchmore (Playford, 1653), unless you are looking for something by name Haymaker's Jig or Strip the Willow. Trenchmore has that arming part like Strip the Willow. Dustin Cooper On May 15, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Deborah Denenfeld wrote: > Does anyone know the earliest reference to Haymaker's Jig or Strip > the Willow or Drops of Brandy? A source would be helpful. Thanks. > > Deborah ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 05:53:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605161352.k4GDqGWC014453-AT-nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Origin of Haymaker's Jig, etc. Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:52:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trenchmore is also published by EFDSS in "Country Dance book anew series" 1979 -----Original Message----- Try Trenchmore (Playford, 1653), unless you are looking for something by name Haymaker's Jig or Strip the Willow. Trenchmore has that arming part like Strip the Willow. Dustin Cooper On May 15, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Deborah Denenfeld wrote: > Does anyone know the earliest reference to Haymaker's Jig or Strip > the Willow or Drops of Brandy? A source would be helpful. Thanks. > > Deborah ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:37:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Patricia Ruggiero" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "English Dance" Subject: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 20:35:46 -0400 Message-ID: <003601c67949$d7333a30$972df804-AT-g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is on the Washington Spring Ball program. I'm looking at the music, with time signature of 2/2. I'm reading the instructions, which don't seem to fit bars of two beats each. Are there *four* steps to the bar? Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:32:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:31:39 -0400 From: "Gene Murrow" Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst To: Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002001c67951$a6448ca0$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <003601c67949$d7333a30$972df804-AT-g9tfz> Yup. Should be 4/4. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Ruggiero" To: "English Dance" Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst > This is on the Washington Spring Ball program. I'm looking at the music, > with time signature of 2/2. I'm reading the instructions, which don't > seem > to fit bars of two beats each. Are there *four* steps to the bar? > > Pat > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:37:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Patricia Ruggiero" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:36:29 -0400 Message-ID: <003701c67952$529edd20$972df804-AT-g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks! Pat > > Yup. > > Should be 4/4. > > Gene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:52:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Antony Heywood" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "ECD" Subject: [ECD] Pengwerne Gallop Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:51:21 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn and David Wiright of Lichfield (who are not members of this list) asked me the following question which I cannot answer: Several years ago, we did a Sicilian Circle dance with Ken Alexander which Ken attributed to Pat Shaw. We noted it down as Pengwerne Gallop (Pengwerne being a mediaeval name for Shrewsbury, the town of David's birth). Talking to Ken recently, he said that he had it down as Pen Gwyn Gallop, thought it was Pat's, but had no idea when or how he got it. We've never come across it anywhere else and of course it's not in any of the books of Pat's dances. We're also not aware of it being in the Welsh repertoire (albeit that Shrewsbury is in England!). They also sent me the instructions for the dance (done to a 24-bar jig) which give the date they collected it from Ken Alexander as Christmas 1982. I am unwilling to publish these instructions on the list but will send them privately if it helps anyone to identify the dance. By the way, it's nothing like Shropshire Gallop by Pat Shaw. Antony Heywood The Netherlands ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:30:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:29:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Message-ID: References: <003601c67949$d7333a30$972df804-AT-g9tfz> <002001c67951$a6448ca0$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Just to muddy the waters a bit, the composer (Kathy Talvitie) of the tune (Red Star Line) has said to me that she feels the *tune* in a slow 2/2; hence the way it's notated in Barnes vol. 2. However, the dance, Autumn in Amherst, definitely requires 4 steps to the bar. Gene is correct, and if Philippe Callens (choreographer) is listening, he can confirm that. (I've suggested to Peter Barnes that he put a note to that effect in the next printing of vol. 2...) Thanks, Patricia, for putting such a lovely tune into my mind's ear this morning! - Susie Lorand (who has played the tune with Kathy and danced the dance to Philippe's calling, but not at the same time...) On Tue, 16 May 2006, Gene Murrow wrote: > Yup. > > Should be 4/4. > > Gene > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Ruggiero" > To: "English Dance" > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:35 PM > Subject: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst > >> This is on the Washington Spring Ball program. I'm looking at the >> music, with time signature of 2/2. I'm reading the instructions, which >> don't seem to fit bars of two beats each. Are there *four* steps to >> the bar? >> >> Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:08:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:07:06 -0400 From: "Gene Murrow" Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst To: Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <000701c67a28$2627f070$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <003601c67949$d7333a30$972df804-AT-g9tfz> <002001c67951$a6448ca0$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> Not to worry, Susie, the waters are quite muddy already, as you know... Dance leaders should look at Holborn March in Barnes 1. It's notated in 4/4 but it's danced with 2 steps per bar. Furthermore, the tune sure _looks_ and sounds like 2/2. Same with Faithless Nancy Dawson, and a few others. OTOH, Bar a Bar is notated in so-called "cut time," commonly treated as 2/2, but the dance demands 4 steps per bar, as if it were in 4/4. So we have totally consistent inconsistency in our beloved repertoire (and have had since the 17th century or before). "Red Star Line," Kathy's tune for Autumn in Amherst, may be one of those tunes that says one thing when played alone, and something else when used to support a particular dance. Others are Colin Hume's "Elizabeth," which many people hear as a waltz (and which Colin is happy to have played as a waltz for waltzing), but which, for the dance itself, should be a slower, even triple and _not_ a waltz. Conversely, Well Hall by itself wants to go at a slower, schmaltzier tempo than that which works best for the dance. When played for Philippe's dance, Red Star Line is, IMHO, the quintessential 4/4 flowing MECD tune, with a strong pulse on the quarter-note (crotchet). Its sweep and grandeur, and the shape of the choreography, give every 4/4 beat a privileged place. Interestingly enough, Kathy herself played for us last weekend at the John C. Campbell Folk School ECD weekend, and her solo piano rendition accompanying the dance had exactly(!) this characteristic. Perhaps she does think of it differently when playing it simply as an air; works of genius often have that characteristic. Peter Barnes's dilemma is whether to try to follow a convention that 4/4 indicates 4 steps per bar, and 2/2 indicates 2, or to go with the composer's intentional or possibly negligent notation. That a superb leader as experienced as Pat Ruggiero could be confused certainly argues for some consistency. It'll probably never happen, so we all have to stay alert... Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan R. Lorand" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst > Just to muddy the waters a bit, the composer (Kathy Talvitie) of the tune > (Red Star Line) has said to me that she feels the *tune* in a slow 2/2; > hence the way it's notated in Barnes vol. 2. > ... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:08:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:07:27 -0400 From: Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Classes at dance camp To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2d678b84.ba2af109.81a3a00-AT-ms05.lnh.mail.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan: I have two suggestions in response to your dance camp teaching question that relate to teaching elements of style. If, as Jon predicts, you have few or no unwilling teens, you may still have some relative beginners and infrequent English dancers. As I've never been to a Family Week, I have no idea if the campers will want mostly to relax and have a good time, not improve their dancing, but the writers of some earlier responses noted they _like_ to learn something at camp, and maybe your campers will, too. When I started dancing, I remember how much there was to learn, and how I had to learn it all simultaneously, so of course I made mistakes. I felt awkward at each mistake, disappointed that I couldn't dance as confidently and smoothly as the good dancers, some of whom were intimidatingly good. On style, if I saw someone do something that looked especially graceful, say, casting into a hey for three, I'd try to figure out how they did that, so I could, too. And I'd promptly get confused -- should I cast right or left? -- then do it wrong and not be able to figure out if there's a logical rule for that, because we had to go on to the next dance. Two things helped. One was Liz Snowden mentioning while calling that Good Dancers can help the less experienced by guiding them with body language and eye contact while dancing, without ever talking or pushing them where they should get to. Maybe she was only cautioning against those bad habits, but I thought this was a great idea, and I noticed that a lot of dancers would usher me into, say, a first corners cross with eyes, a way of holding hands and arms and turning the body slightly, and maybe a head gesture, too, __if__ I looked for it (or was even minimally alert and looking at the other dancers). Or they would look at me and raise a right hand a beat or two before a right-hand turn so that I didn't even have a chance of realizing that I'd forgotten what to do next. Here's the move, silver platter and all. The second thing was that I realized that the good dancers were not really intimidating, and I could ask them for advice. So I did, and they seemed flattered, and they gave good advice, even if I couldn't always implement it immediately. So my first suggestion is to point out the first day something in this general area, tailored of course to how you like to teach. I would note that dancing is, after all, a community exercise, and you can learn from other good dancers, as well as the leader, suggest Liz's advice, ask the good dancers to do it that way (without pushing or talking), solicit questions after a dance if someone had difficulty with a particular move, and ask the more experienced dancers that if anyone asks them for advice about something, they let you know so you're aware of problems you could address in the next class. I am aware that some dance leaders do not favor such openness, and prefer that all instruction of any kind come solely from them, not from other dancers (and perhaps you may even feel that way yourself), so this may open up a new thread of discussion on this list. But I like it. My second suggestion derives in part from that early overwhelming feeling that there was so much to learn, and all at once. But also in part from the general experience that I find it hard to interrupt learning the pattern of a dance, how the whole thing flows, with teaching style points. Sometimes it is even a little disruptive to interrupt to teach a mechanical point, like walking through a double figure of eight, necessary as that may be. In general, I find that I most like it when a leader will finish teaching the pattern, and THEN make note of a particular style point for a particular move in that dance. Maybe that works best for more experienced dancers, I don't know. But the essence of the suggestion is to separate style from pattern. It occurs to me that a way to do this is to put all the style or mechanics at the start of the class. You could identify, say, three dances that have casts that take different amounts of time, maybe six beats, eight beats and nine beats. Teach all three casts at the start, maybe with the moves that precede and follow the casts, for continuity and flow, but nothing more, though you might contrast it to turns single (regular and cloverleaf). Then go on to teach the complete dances in the class. You could do the same with: a circular hey, four changes of rights and lefts, four changes where the first two are fast and the third slow, a circular hey giving right hand, left hand, no hands, two hands (1-1-0-2 mnemonic) and a circle dance with three changes; a half figure of eight, full figure of eight, hey across the set, double figure of eight; right hand turn, gate, slipping circle, circle left 3/4. Well, five moves is probably a bit much all at the start of a single class -- three would probably be better and keep the teaching time less obtrusive, with a goal of maybe keeping it down to five minutes of teaching. But you could use all five dances with the moves, even if you don't teach two of the moves at the start. I don't believe I've ever seen a similar system used anywhere, so I haven't the faintest idea if it would work, but it would seem to make it easier to teach the actual dances during the class itself (now here come the three moves that we did at the start of this class), and that would make it seem like the dance teaching part is really zipping along. This may be the world's worst idea in a long time, I don't know, but it seems that it might be an experiment that people would be willing to try, at least for the first three days, then you could put it to a vote. And maybe others on this list will have a reaction, or suggest improvements. At any rate, good luck with the camp, whatever you decide to do. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 05:49:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Patricia Ruggiero" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:47:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c67a81$a792bf60$ce21f804-AT-g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gene wrote: > Peter Barnes's dilemma is whether to try to follow a > convention that 4/4 indicates 4 steps per bar, and 2/2 > indicates 2, or to go with the composer's intentional or > possibly negligent notation. That a superb leader as > experienced as Pat Ruggiero could be confused certainly > argues for some consistency. It'll probably never happen, so > we all have to stay alert... Gene, thank you for your kind words. My difficulty with the dance arose because I'd never done it or even heard the tune, and we're planning on attending the Washington Spring Ball on Saturday. When I read the instructions, I immediately thought, "Oh, 4/4 time." When I looked at the tune (in the red Barnes) notated as 2/2, I immediately said, "Uh oh." I figured it had to be a good and popular dance or it wouldn't be on the Ball program. If I'd been introduced to it in a weekly dance, this confusion likely would not have arisen. > "Red Star Line," Kathy's tune for Autumn in Amherst, may be one of > those tunes that says one thing when played alone, and something else > when used to support a particular dance. Ah, so you think so, too. I expressed the same idea in a private note to Tom Spilsbury (one of the Ball organizers), while wondering if it was a valid point. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:06:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) References: <000a01c67a81$a792bf60$ce21f804-AT-g9tfz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-ID: <85C95401-5CE9-4C3B-BE1A-B640940C16A7-AT-research.neu.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:05:50 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Dear Friends, For those of you who don't know the dance, it's a great one. It includes a figure where after working with the other couple, you and your partner have a solitary up a double and back, which feels like being in your own private space, with all this romantic music being shared. Then, as if the intimacy is too much, the man casts away from partner only to find her following; as he turns around, there she is, and you re-connect with her through eye contact as you slowly pass by to change sides. "Darling, we'll always have Amherst" Best, Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "michael.barraclough" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:38:42 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that if I repeated this in your average UK Folk Dance Club I = would probably be commited to the local lunatic asylum - not just = separated by a common language, but by an uncommon culture also! Michael Barraclough Itinerant C17 & C21 Dancing Master, Contra, ceilidh and ECD caller http://www.Michael Barraclough.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Terence Gaffney To: "" Sent: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:05:50 GMT Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst > Dear Friends, > For those of you who don't know the dance, it's a great one. It > includes a figure where after working with the other couple, you > and > your partner have a solitary up a double and back, which feels like > being in your own private space, with all this romantic music being > shared. Then, as if the intimacy is too much, the man casts away > from > partner only to find her following; as he turns around, there she > is, and you re-connect with her through eye contact as you slowly > pass by to change sides. > > "Darling, we'll always have Amherst" > > Best, > Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:01:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:00:49 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Michael, you just need the right surroundings. Try it after the dance at the local pub after you and your club members have had a pint. I believe I could pull it off with the Cambridge Round in this setting. best, terry On May 18, 2006, at 12:38 PM, michael.barraclough wrote: > I think that if I repeated this in your average UK Folk Dance Club > I would probably be commited to the local lunatic asylum - not just > separated by a common language, but by an uncommon culture also! > > Michael Barraclough > Itinerant C17 & C21 Dancing Master, Contra, ceilidh and ECD caller > http://www.Michael Barraclough.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terence Gaffney > To: "" > Sent: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:05:50 GMT > Subject: Re: [ECD] Autumn in Amherst > >> Dear Friends, >> For those of you who don't know the dance, it's a great one. It >> includes a figure where after working with the other couple, you >> and >> your partner have a solitary up a double and back, which feels like >> being in your own private space, with all this romantic music being >> shared. Then, as if the intimacy is too much, the man casts away >> from >> partner only to find her following; as he turns around, there she >> is, and you re-connect with her through eye contact as you slowly >> pass by to change sides. >> >> "Darling, we'll always have Amherst" >> >> Best, >> Terry > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:18:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Antony Heywood" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "ECD" Subject: [ECD] RE: Pengwerne Gallop Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:16:44 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently asked the list if anyone knew the source of Pengwerne Gallop. Derek Appleing (Folk Sales UK) replied privately: "Have been in touch with Marjorie Fennessy and I copy part of her reply to me. It is Carlam Nant Pengwern (Pengwern Valley Galop) ("Welsh" Galop) by P. N. Shuldham-Shaw 1966. If it is printed anywhere, it will be by the Welsh Folk Dance Society. Music suggested: 24 bar jig such as "Hela'r Sgwarnog" with B music repeated Sicilian circle formation - but men facing counter-clockwise and women facing clockwise" So there's the answer Antony Heywood ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 00:43:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "ecdscd-AT-yahoo.com using getitfree.net" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] please do this, for a free PC-cillin Internet Security 2004 Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 01:42:17 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_074ec67e55cc5df67e1f85d3977ec833" Message-ID: To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu --=_074ec67e55cc5df67e1f85d3977ec833 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey, go here and we both get a free PC-cillin Internet Security 2004 pretty pretty please :) http://www.getitfree.net/xhmgmdhku http://www.getitfree.net/xhmgmdhku This was sent by ecdscd-AT-yahoo.com via GetItFree, 540 University Ave 50, Palo Alto CA 94301 Visit this page http://www.getitfree.net/index.php?target=unsubscribe&u=hmgmdhku to prevent delivery of future GetItFree.net referral emails --=_074ec67e55cc5df67e1f85d3977ec833 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hey, go here and we both get a free PC-cillin Internet Security 2004

pretty pretty please :)

http://www.getitfree.net/xhmgmdhku=20

This was sent by ecdscd-AT-yahoo.com via GetItFree, 540 University Ave 50, Palo Alto CA 94301
Visit this page to prevent delivery of future GetItFree= .net referral emails --=_074ec67e55cc5df67e1f85d3977ec833-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 07:13:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <446F0C66.8090709-AT-yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 08:32:38 -0400 From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu" Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As apparently traumatic encountering dissent was for you, rest assured it was all an illusion. I praised her article, asked a couple of questions and had one point (both logical AND well-taken, fortunately) of contention. Hardly qualifies as global 'fault-finding'. If you read the previous two posts of the discussion, you'd see that you missed the connecting discussion between Maypoles and the other topics, but to briefly explain it: The distance between the native groups who participated in the first Thanksgiving and the people who actually wore feathered headdresses is about 1,000 miles. Imagine an Irish person depicted wearing a turban or fez, if that helps. And there was nothing about Christian forced 'conversions' that remotely resembles 'gentle' or 'inclusive'. In stark contrast to that fantasy, like so many other religious or political conversions, they're always accompanied by bloodbaths, torture, theft, rape, cultural decimation, slavery and corruption. I find that it's always best to avoid the fruit of poisoned trees. It looks like most of us *do* agree with one thing: Sometimes a Maypole is just a Maypole. Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults Saturday to much delight & gratitude. Many of the adults in their 50s had never done a Maypole dance and none of the people had ever done ECD before, so I may have interested a few of them in trying out one of our monthly dances. Tom SUSAN wrote: > Having danced around a few Maypoles and played for a > few Maypole dances in my time, I very much enjoyed > Allison's well-researched and entertaining article > about the history of Maypoles in the United States. I > was sorry to read the fault-finding with Allison's > work, as the objections don't appear to be very > logical or well-taken. > > So, at the risk of being found didactic, here are a > few more points to consider: > > > -- *********** Tom Vincent *********** The new Tom Hanks film is based on a book full of lies, deceit & corruption. It's also based on Dan Brown's "The daVinci Code" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 08:35:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605201634.k4KGYOp3001378-AT-nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 17:34:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance, or something else with the same tune? I can't imagine "our" dance having a maypole in it, but the tune is worth re-using. Just come back from watching the maypole dancers at the school where we dance. Very neatly wound ribbons, and 2 teachers holding on to the rocking maypole. Their summer fete and it stayed dry most of the afternoon. The class I've been helping with did 2 traditional English barn dances too, then our club. If all 3 people who were interested come to club we'll have a 10% increase. Hope yours turn up too. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Vincent Sent: 20 May 2006 13:33 To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults Saturday to much delight & gratitude. Many of the adults in their 50s had never done a Maypole dance and none of the people had ever done ECD before, so I may have interested a few of them in trying out one of our monthly dances. Tom ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:49:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060521034828.51063.qmail-AT-web80215.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 20:48:28 -0700 (PDT) From: SUSAN Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Maypoles, etc., yet again... To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am getting weary of this increasingly off-topic topic, but would like to point out that I am not given to either "illusion" or "fantasy", nor do I find "encountering dissent" "traumatic". I would not read or post here, were either the case. I do prefer intellectual debate which is well-researched, civil, and to the point rather than ad hominem, especially when it is conducted in a public forum. Having read Allison's very fine article, and read and re-read all of the related posts on the ECD list, I stand by my previous message. I'd refer those who'd like to pursue this topic on their own to take a look at the writings of the Venerable Bede about King Ethelbert of Kent's encounter with St. Augustine ("of Kent"), and at Augustine's correspondence with Pope Gregory, back in the sixth and seventh centuries, Common Era. Or A.D., whichever you prefer. Be sure to read the letter to Mellotus, written in 601 CE/AD, about recycling temples as churches, and the reasons this was considered a good idea, and just how they intended to go about it. You won't find anything about atrocities or hatred of the "heathen" natives of Britain, and you won't find black and white thinking or descriptions. You won't find extreme terms like "always" or "never". You won't find projection, or gaslighting. Not at this time; not in this place; not by these people. The missionaries of the early church in Britain saw things very clearly, and had some extremely practical - and compassionate - notions of how to go about spreading the good news and making converts. Too bad that didn't last... That's all. May is more than half over; can we please put this increasingly tiresome debate to rest? Thank you. Susan B. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:50:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605212048.k4LKmhKF019747-AT-nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: [ECD] Aunt Hessies white horse (was Aunt Nessie's White Horse) Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:48:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C67D20.54A5B810" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C67D20.54A5B810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had difficulty finding this long gone thread (white horse got it!), and then it didn't answer my question. Hanny D. Budnick says The swing in Tant Hessie was originally a 'Tikkidrie' (love that word!) where both dancers stand right shoulders adjacent and hands crossed behind their backs for the buzz swing. Mighty dangerous in crowded halls though, because the elbows stick out. I've always used the swing recommended by JHMTurner, men's hands on women's waist, women's hands on partner's shoulders, but I remember being told to bob up and down. Can anyone tell me how. Both down then up, or seesaw fashion or what? ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C67D20.54A5B810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I had difficulty finding this long gone thread = (white horse got it!), and then it didn’t answer my = question.

Hanny D. Budnick says

The swing in Tant Hessie was originally a = 'Tikkidrie' (love that word!)
where = both dancers stand right shoulders adjacent and hands crossed = behind
their = backs for the buzz swing. Mighty dangerous in crowded halls = though,
because = the elbows stick out.

I’ve = always used the swing recommended = by JHMTurner, men’s hands on women’s waist, women’s hands = on partner’s shoulders, but I remember being told to bob up and down. = Can anyone tell me how. Both down then up, or seesaw fashion or what?

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C67D20.54A5B810-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 13:08:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605212106.k4LL6e2h019012-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: [ECD] Terpsichore 3rd figure Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 22:06:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C67D22.D6F8AFA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C67D22.D6F8AFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whenever I've called this dance I've used the instructions in the booklet with the West Kirby Band tape. For the second part of the 3rd figure this is B1 1-6 Middle couples (2& 3), cross right shoulder with partner and face the nearest end couple on the line..All set R & L..2 changes of a circular hey So I've expected middle dancers to go straight across, then turn to face end. But when I've danced it in E Yorkshire, the crossing is done diagonally towards the end couple, lady in front of man, like you do in a figure 8. (shoulder varies) Is this how most people dance it? It certainly feels right. Does anyone know what Charles Bolton put in his book "Not all my own work"? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C67D22.D6F8AFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Whenever I’ve called this dance = I’ve used the instructions in the booklet with the West Kirby Band tape. =

For the second part of the 3^rd = figure this is

B1 1-6 Middle couples (2& 3), cross right shoulder with partner and face the nearest end couple on the = line……All set R & L….2 changes of a circular = hey

So I’ve expected middle dancers to go = straight across, then turn to face end.

But when I’ve danced it in E Yorkshire, the crossing is done diagonally towards the end = couple, lady in front of man, like you do in a figure 8. (shoulder = varies)

Is this how most people dance it? It certainly = feels right. Does anyone know what Charles Bolton put in his book “Not = all my own work”?

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C67D22.D6F8AFA0-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 14:39:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4470EC13.1000800-AT-yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 18:39:15 -0400 From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] References: <200605201634.k4KGYOp3001378-AT-nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, it is. I simplified it spectacularly for the kids...I've taught the dance to kids before and they're okay with it for the most part, but this group was a bit younger and had been running around for several hours so their few functioning brain circuits just weren't going to get it, so all I did was the Grand Hey at the end, which works just great for doing a Maypole. For the adults, they did just fine and really enjoyed it. I've always pictured Druids or Wiccans doing a dance like Sellenger's Round, especially with the 'in for a double, hoot-and-holler' (well, okay, that last part's an Arizona thing :) ) It's a great way to sneak in some dancing for people who weren't expecting it, huh, Mo? :) Tom Mo wrote: > Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance, or something else with the same > tune? I can't imagine "our" dance having a maypole in it, but the tune is > worth re-using. > Just come back from watching the maypole dancers at the school where we > dance. Very neatly wound ribbons, and 2 teachers holding on to the rocking > maypole. Their summer fete and it stayed dry most of the afternoon. The > class I've been helping with did 2 traditional English barn dances too, then > our club. If all 3 people who were interested come to club we'll have a 10% > increase. > Hope yours turn up too. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Vincent > Sent: 20 May 2006 13:33 > To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] > > > > Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults > Saturday to much delight & gratitude. > Many of the adults in their 50s had never done a Maypole dance and none of > the people had ever done ECD > before, so I may have interested a few of them in trying out one of our > monthly dances. > > Tom > > > > > > > -- *********** Tom Vincent *********** The new Tom Hanks film is based on a book full of lies, deceit & corruption. It's also based on Dan Brown's "The daVinci Code" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:38:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Terpsichore 3rd figure Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:37:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: The way I have always danced it, even when Charles has called it, with middles passing partner right shoulder then face nearer end couple. However, I did it just recently with the variation and it did not feel right. Charles is an experienced enough dance writer to have put exactly what he wanted into his instructions and I have never known him to call it with a diagonal cross. Graham Knight mjw-AT-MOWADDINGTON.PLUS.COM wrote: > Whenever I've called this dance I've used the instructions in the booklet > with the West Kirby Band tape. > For the second part of the 3rd figure this is > B1 1-6 Middle couples (2& 3), cross right shoulder with partner and face the > nearest end couple on the line..All set R & L..2 changes of a circular hey > > So I've expected middle dancers to go straight across, then turn to face > end. > But when I've danced it in E Yorkshire, the crossing is done diagonally > towards the end couple, lady in front of man, like you do in a figure 8. > (shoulder varies) > Is this how most people dance it? It certainly feels right. Does anyone know > what Charles Bolton put in his book "Not all my own work"? > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:39:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605220838.k4M8cFjA001997-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:38:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mo says I don't think it can be, we (in UK) never put a hey in A Circle L&R,/Fwd a double & back x2/siding/arming/(circle L&R again sometimes) B Fwd 2 singles, back a double, set and turn single B2 repeat B1 Tom wrote Yes, it is. I simplified it spectacularly for the kids...... all I did was the Grand Hey at the end Mo wrote: > Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance, Tom started it > Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults > Saturday to much delight & gratitude. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 01:04:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605220903.k4M93KXx003359-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Terpsichore 3rd figure Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:03:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Graham I started calling it before I'd danced it (the music on the tape took my fancy, and I liked the look of the dance that went with it) so I wondered if I'd got it wrong. I felt that the diagonal version gave smoother transition from chain to crossing, but I shall keep calling it the old way, or say something like "middles cross, the instructions say R shoulder" and leave it to partners to decide. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk Sent: 22 May 2006 09:37 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Terpsichore 3rd figure The way I have always danced it, even when Charles has called it, with middles passing partner right shoulder then face nearer end couple. However, I did it just recently with the variation and it did not feel right. Charles is an experienced enough dance writer to have put exactly what he wanted into his instructions and I have never known him to call it with a diagonal cross. Graham Knight mjw-AT-MOWADDINGTON.PLUS.COM wrote: > Whenever I've called this dance I've used the instructions in the booklet > with the West Kirby Band tape. > For the second part of the 3rd figure this is > B1 1-6 Middle couples (2& 3), cross right shoulder with partner and face the > nearest end couple on the line..All set R & L..2 changes of a circular hey > > So I've expected middle dancers to go straight across, then turn to face > end. > But when I've danced it in E Yorkshire, the crossing is done diagonally > towards the end couple, lady in front of man, like you do in a figure 8. > (shoulder varies) > Is this how most people dance it? It certainly feels right. Does anyone know > what Charles Bolton put in his book "Not all my own work"? > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 08:02:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060522160136.83091.qmail-AT-web52614.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:01:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-763742251-1148313696=:80810" --0-763742251-1148313696=:80810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You're right...before I induce any more illusory distress, I'll have to track down the source of the version I used! :) It simply replaces the ending L&R slipping steps (A5 in some listings) with the Grand Hey. I then just kept repeating the music (which by this point becomes mere background music accompanying laughter, silliness & traffic-directing rather than an actual tempo-keeping tool) until the Maypole was finished. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government. -- Tom Paine ----- Original Message ---- From: Mo To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:38:15 AM Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Mo says I don't think it can be, we (in UK) never put a hey in A Circle L&R,/Fwd a double & back x2/siding/arming/(circle L&R again sometimes) B Fwd 2 singles, back a double, set and turn single B2 repeat B1 Tom wrote Yes, it is. I simplified it spectacularly for the kids...... all I did was the Grand Hey at the end Mo wrote: > Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance, Tom started it > Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults > Saturday to much delight & gratitude. --0-763742251-1148313696=:80810 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

You're right...before I induce any more illusory distress, I'll have to track down the source of the version I used! :)

It simply replaces the ending L&R slipping steps (A5 in some listings) with the Grand Hey. I then just kept repeating the music (which by this point becomes mere background music accompanying laughter, silliness & traffic-directing rather than an actual tempo-keeping tool) until the Maypole was finished.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government.
-- Tom Paine

----- Original Message ----
From: Mo <mjw-AT-MOWADDINGTON.PLUS.COM>
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:38:15 AM
Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article]

Mo says
I don't think it can be, we (in UK) never put a hey in
A Circle L&R,/Fwd a double & back x2/siding/arming/(circle L&R again
sometimes)
B Fwd 2 singles, back a double, set and turn single
B2 repeat B1

Tom wrote
Yes, it is.  I simplified it spectacularly for the kids......
all I did was the Grand Hey at the end

Mo wrote:
> Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance,

Tom started it
> Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults
> Saturday to much delight & gratitude.
--0-763742251-1148313696=:80810-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:05:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605221703.k4MH3rJs013574-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:03:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DCA.16A07C80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DCA.16A07C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds fun _____ From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of tom.vincent-AT-yahoo.com Sent: 22 May 2006 17:02 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] You're right...before I induce any more illusory distress, I'll have to track down the source of the version I used! :) It simply replaces the ending L&R slipping steps (A5 in some listings) with the Grand Hey. I then just kept repeating the music (which by this point becomes mere background music accompanying laughter, silliness & traffic-directing rather than an actual tempo-keeping tool) until the Maypole was finished. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government. -- Tom Paine ----- Original Message ---- From: Mo To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:38:15 AM Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole Article] Mo says I don't think it can be, we (in UK) never put a hey in A Circle L&R,/Fwd a double & back x2/siding/arming/(circle L&R again sometimes) B Fwd 2 singles, back a double, set and turn single B2 repeat B1 Tom wrote Yes, it is. I simplified it spectacularly for the kids...... all I did was the Grand Hey at the end Mo wrote: > Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance, Tom started it > Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & adults > Saturday to much delight & gratitude. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DCA.16A07C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sounds = fun

From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu = [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of = tom.vincent-AT-yahoo.com
Sent: 22 May 2006 = 17:02
To: = ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: = Allison's Maypole Article]

You're right...before I induce any more illusory distress, I'll = have to track down the source of the version I used! :) =

It simply replaces the ending L&R slipping steps (A5 in some listings) with the Grand Hey. I then just kept repeating the music = (which by this point becomes mere background music accompanying laughter, silliness & traffic-directing rather than an actual tempo-keeping tool) until the Maypole was finished.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; = neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes = not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of = its constitution and government.
-- Tom Paine

----- Original Message ----
From: Mo <mjw-AT-MOWADDINGTON.PLUS.COM>
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:38:15 AM
Subject: RE: [ECD] Re: Allison's Maypole = Article]

Mo says
I don't think it can be, we (in UK) never put a hey in
A Circle L&R,/Fwd a double = & back x2/siding/arming/(circle L&R again
sometimes)
B Fwd 2 singles, back a double, set and turn single
B2 repeat B1

Tom wrote
Yes, it is.  I simplified it spectacularly for the = kids......
all I did was the Grand Hey at the end

Mo wrote:
> Is this the Sellenger's Round that we dance,

Tom started it
> Anyway, I taught a Maypole dance (Sellenger's Round) to kids & = adults
> Saturday to much delight & = gratitude.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DCA.16A07C80-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:25:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:22:39 -0400 Subject: [ECD] Updated musical terminology Message-ID: <20060522.132241.3116.11.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sol Weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Hi, all To help assist dance composers, musicians and callers to keep abreast of the ever-developing world of musical terminology, here's the latest (from Tom Hurd on piano-teachers-AT-yahoo.com ). Some definitely apply to the dance world. My thanks to John A and Cynthia S. Sol ALLREGRETTO When you're 16 measures into the piece and realize you took too fast a tempo ANGUS DEI To play with a divinely beefy tone A PATELLA Accompanied by knee-slapping APPOLOGGIATURA A composition that you regret playing APPROXIMATURA A series of notes not intended by the composer, yet played with an "I meant to do that" attitude APPROXIMENTO A musical entrance that is somewhere in the vicinity of the correct pitch CACOPHANY [aka CACOUGHONY -psl] A composition incorporating many people with chest colds CORAL SYMPHONY A large, multi-movement work from Beethoven's Caribbean Period DILL PICCOLINI An exceedingly small wind instrument that plays only sour notes FERMANTRA A note held over and over and over and over and . . . FERMOOTA A note of dubious value held for indefinite length FIDDLER CRABS Grumpy string players FLUTE FLIES Those tiny mosquitos that bother musicians on outdoor gigs FRUGALHORN A sensible and inexpensive brass instrument GAUL BLATTER A French horn player GREGORIAN CHAMP The title bestowed upon the monk who can hold a note the longest GROUND HOG Someone who takes control of the repeated bass line and won't let anyone else play it PLACEBO DOMINGO A faux tenor SCHMALZANDO A sudden burst of music from the Guy Lombardo band THE RIGHT OF STRINGS Manifesto of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Violists SPRITZICATO An indication to string instruments to produce a bright and bubbly sound TEMPO TANTRUM What an elementary school orchestra is having when it's not following the conductor TROUBLE CLEF Any clef one can't read: e.g., alto clef for pianists VESUVIOSO An indication to build up to a fiery conclusion VIBRATTO Child prodigy son of the concertmaster Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; web: http://roundz.tripod.com (DON'T use 'www') ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:55:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <441.149c02c.31a354b9-AT-aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:54:01 EDT Subject: Re: [ECD] Updated musical terminology To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1148320441" -------------------------------1148320441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm on the ECD list, so got that, too. I'm already trying to think about who I should send it to. :+) -- Deborah Forest Hart Musician, Artist, Quilter Hartmusik, Nutmeg Consort, Home Brood, Evergreenhttp://hometown.aol.com/dfhart24/myhomepage/profile.html When Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought of Western Civilization he said "I think it would be a good idea." -------------------------------1148320441 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i'm on the ECD list, so got that, too.

I'm already trying to think about who I should send it to. :+)

--
Deborah Forest Hart
Musician, Artist, Quilter
Hartmus= ik, Nutmeg Consort, Home Brood, Evergreenhttp://hometown.aol.com/dfhart24/myhomepage/profi= le.html

When Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought=20= of Western
Civilization he said "I think it would be a good idea."
-------------------------------1148320441-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:18:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060522201658.38079.qmail-AT-web50803.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Giovanni De Amici Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] wonderful Ball - many thanks to FSGW To: ecdlist ecdlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good day all. just wanted to be the first one on this list to say what a wonderful experience was the Spring Ball in Washington (D.C.) last saturday. We had perfect weather, a nice hall, scrumptious refreshments, inspired (and inspiring) music, a well-rounded program, and (rarest of all treats) competent dancing that was walk-through-free. For one fleeting evening I was again dancing to the music, rather than to someone's voice. Priceless! So many thanks to those who worked at putting the event together, and a special mention to the spirit of hospitality of the D.C. community: it appears that, every time I am visiting, they organize a Ball :-))). Maybe I should visit more often? Giovanni De Amici (from Los Angeles, CA) for information about English Country Dance in and around Los Angeles, please check our web page at: www.geocities.com/sbecd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:15:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4472625A.4030905-AT-sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:16:10 -0400 From: Blank Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Aunt Hessies white horse (was Aunt Nessie's White Horse) References: <200605212048.k4LKmhKF019747-AT-nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030909080308080604020408" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030909080308080604020408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mo writes: > I've always used the swing recommended by JHMTurner, men's hands on > women's waist, women's hands on partner's shoulders, but I remember > being told to bob up and down. Can anyone tell me how. Both down then > up, or seesaw fashion or what? The bobbing is not a studied action in the swing but is incidental to the foot work, as it is in the traveling country dance waltz. In the buzz step swing, assuming the feet are close together as they should be in any fast couple turn, the bush off from the left foot yields an uplift and the following step on the right, a fall. In the traveling waltz, a long forward step is followed by two short forward steps. The long forward step yields a drop relative to the rise in the first short step which is maintained in the second. -- Albert Blank --------------030909080308080604020408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mo writes:

I’ve always used the swing recommended by JHMTurner, men’s hands on women’s waist, women’s hands on partner’s shoulders, but I remember being told to bob up and down. Can anyone tell me how. Both down then up, or seesaw fashion or what?
The bobbing is not a studied action in the swing but is incidental to the foot work, as it is in the traveling country dance waltz. In the buzz step swing, assuming the feet are close together as they should be in any fast couple turn, the bush off from the left foot yields an uplift and the following step on the right, a fall. In the traveling waltz, a long forward step is followed by two short forward steps. The long forward step yields a drop relative to the rise in the first short step which is maintained in the second.

-- Albert Blank
--------------030909080308080604020408-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:24:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9f752a3f0605231022l3ec0aa55id8d4d3649e1f9ce2-AT-mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:22:42 -0400 From: "Country Dancers of Westchester" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "ECD List" Subject: [ECD] Ice Cream Social MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1150_26083691.1148404962915" ------=_Part_1150_26083691.1148404962915 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Country Dancers of Westchester ends its 2005-2006 season with the annual "Ice Cream Social" featuring emcees Fried Herman, Carol Martinez, Gene Murrow, and Paul Ross. Music by the house band and guest musicians, all led by Leah Barkan. Great fun & refreshments at the break. Dance from 8pm to 11pm, Saturday, May 27, in White Plains, NY. Get directions & other information at the C.D.W. website: http://www.geocities.com/cdwestchester/ ------=_Part_1150_26083691.1148404962915 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Country Dancers of Westchester ends its 2005-2006 season with the
annual= "Ice Cream Social" featuring emcees Fried Herman, Carol
Marti= nez, Gene Murrow, and Paul Ross. Music by the house band and
guest music= ians, all led by Leah Barkan. Great fun & refreshments at
the break.

Dance from 8pm to 11pm, Saturday, May 27, in White Pl= ains, NY. Get
directions & other information at the C.D.W. website:<= br> http://www.geocities.com/cdwestchester/ ------=_Part_1150_26083691.1148404962915-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:46:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> From: "Mo" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:45:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do people think we should call dances the way they were written, or should the "folk process" be allowed. E.g. I dance (and sometimes call) Shandy Hall at 2 clubs. One does it as written; Circle half way for 3 couples, the end couple R hand turn. At the other it is called with a 2 hand turn, so that you do not let go of partner. Then there is "I care not for these Ladies" which Tom Cook published in 2 versions, 'as written' and 'as danced' -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Mo Sent: 22 May 2006 10:03 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: [ECD] Terpsichore 3rd figure Thanks Graham I started calling it before I'd danced it (the music on the tape took my fancy, and I liked the look of the dance that went with it) so I wondered if I'd got it wrong. I felt that the diagonal version gave smoother transition from chain to crossing, but I shall keep calling it the old way, or say something like "middles cross, the instructions say R shoulder" and leave it to partners to decide. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk Sent: 22 May 2006 09:37 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Terpsichore 3rd figure The way I have always danced it, even when Charles has called it, with middles passing partner right shoulder then face nearer end couple. However, I did it just recently with the variation and it did not feel right. Charles is an experienced enough dance writer to have put exactly what he wanted into his instructions and I have never known him to call it with a diagonal cross. Graham Knight mjw-AT-MOWADDINGTON.PLUS.COM wrote: > Whenever I've called this dance I've used the instructions in the booklet > with the West Kirby Band tape. > For the second part of the 3rd figure this is > B1 1-6 Middle couples (2& 3), cross right shoulder with partner and face the > nearest end couple on the line..All set R & L..2 changes of a circular hey > > So I've expected middle dancers to go straight across, then turn to face > end. > But when I've danced it in E Yorkshire, the crossing is done diagonally > towards the end couple, lady in front of man, like you do in a figure 8. > (shoulder varies) > Is this how most people dance it? It certainly feels right. Does anyone know > what Charles Bolton put in his book "Not all my own work"? > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:09:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:53:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) To: Mo CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01M2RKS6LVK6CPOAZF-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Mo wrote: > Do people think we should call dances the way they were written, or should > the "folk process" be allowed. > E.g. I dance (and sometimes call) Shandy Hall at 2 clubs. One does it as > written; Circle half way for 3 couples, the end couple R hand turn. At the > other it is called with a 2 hand turn, so that you do not let go of partner. > Then there is "I care not for these Ladies" which Tom Cook published in 2 > versions, 'as written' and 'as danced' Whether or not the folk process is 'allowed', it's inevitable. In a historical sense, dancing dances as 'interpreted' (sometimes rather fancifully) isn't going to be the same as dancing dances as written. A more accurate interpretation will appear to be a variation to those who only know the less-accurate interpretation. Nonetheless, some communities will choose one interpretation, some another. When dances are transmitted by paper rather than by experience, changes between authorial intent and caller understanding will inevitably creep in. ECD doesn't have the goal that, say, modern Western squares, do, of letting anybody who's passed the course for a particular level being able to dance that level, without surprises, anywhere in the world. Would there be any gain for the people at your second club if you changed the dance from the way they know and like it to the 'correct' way? Are they likely to go to a no-calling ball somewhere and be embarrassed by doing it differently from anyone else? My guess is that the answers to both questions are "No", so why sweat it? Furthermore, the imperative to the caller in most circumstances is to present something that will work for the people who are there at the time. My usual approach is to pick dances that were designed at the correct level for the particular crowd, but it's also perfectly legitimate to adjust an existing dance to make it easier. Further, callers are allowed to have personal aesthetics, and to prefer to do dances in particular ways, although I think they're obliged to try to understand the choices made by the choreographer/interpreter and not reject them out of ignorance. (There's a reason the four changes in "Collier's Daughter" is done without hands.) If you're a traveling caller it's a good idea to be sensitive to how dances are done in the community you're calling in, and to have a reason for doing it some other way than they're used to (which is better than just appearing to have make a mistake about how the dance goes). [If your personal aesthetics are sufficiently in opposition to that of your dancers, you won't get many repeat gigs, but having a distinct - and agreeable, if unexpected - aesthetic and the ability to communicate it makes a caller distinctive and memorable (in good ways). -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:18:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:16:35 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I ascribe to the principle that if one is trying to recreate something, strive for fidelity to the instructions unless you have some evidence that the instructions are faulty. If you are maintaining a tradition of social dance and using repertoire from history, let the tastes and the capabilities of the participants dictate which and how many alterations from the "written" instructions to incorporate into the dance. The musicians may also play a role in altering the written instructions as may the dancing space (shape, size, surface, etc.). CK "Mo" Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 23-May-2006 05:45 PM Please respond to ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message Size: 4.9 KB To cc Subject Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) Do people think we should call dances the way they were written, or should the "folk process" be allowed. E.g. I dance (and sometimes call) Shandy Hall at 2 clubs. One does it as written; Circle half way for 3 couples, the end couple R hand turn. At the other it is called with a 2 hand turn, so that you do not let go of partner. Then there is "I care not for these Ladies" which Tom Cook published in 2 versions, 'as written' and 'as danced' ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:27:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: From: "Marge Cramton" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: References: <01M2RKS6LVK6CPOAZF-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:26:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions about this question: How important is it that callers call a dance "correctly"? Where's the line between the license we give people who have developed a personal style and might be making changes in a coherent and thoughtful manner (as I think Alan is describing) and callers who may not have extensive calling experience and credentials and are (we think) just plain wrong about how the dance goes? Or is this dancing all just a folk thing and we (as dancers or as organizers) should be nonjudgmental, since we've asked the caller to call? Marge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing" To: "Mo" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:53 PM Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) > Mo wrote: > >> Do people think we should call dances the way they were written, or >> should >> the "folk process" be allowed. >> E.g. I dance (and sometimes call) Shandy Hall at 2 clubs. One does it as >> written; Circle half way for 3 couples, the end couple R hand turn. At >> the >> other it is called with a 2 hand turn, so that you do not let go of >> partner. >> Then there is "I care not for these Ladies" which Tom Cook published in 2 >> versions, 'as written' and 'as danced' > > Whether or not the folk process is 'allowed', it's inevitable. In a > historical > sense, dancing dances as 'interpreted' (sometimes rather fancifully) isn't > going to be the same as dancing dances as written. A more accurate > interpretation will appear to be a variation to those who only know the > less-accurate interpretation. Nonetheless, some communities will choose > one > interpretation, some another. > > When dances are transmitted by paper rather than by experience, changes > between > authorial intent and caller understanding will inevitably creep in. > > ECD doesn't have the goal that, say, modern Western squares, do, of > letting > anybody who's passed the course for a particular level being able to dance > that > level, without surprises, anywhere in the world. Would there be any gain > for > the people at your second club if you changed the dance from the way they > know > and like it to the 'correct' way? Are they likely to go to a no-calling > ball > somewhere and be embarrassed by doing it differently from anyone else? My > guess is that the answers to both questions are "No", so why sweat it? > > Furthermore, the imperative to the caller in most circumstances is to > present > something that will work for the people who are there at the time. My > usual > approach is to pick dances that were designed at the correct level for the > particular crowd, but it's also perfectly legitimate to adjust an existing > dance to make it easier. > > Further, callers are allowed to have personal aesthetics, and to prefer to > do > dances in particular ways, although I think they're obliged to try to > understand the choices made by the choreographer/interpreter and not > reject > them out of ignorance. (There's a reason the four changes in "Collier's > Daughter" is done without hands.) If you're a traveling caller it's a > good > idea to be sensitive to how dances are done in the community you're > calling in, > and to have a reason for doing it some other way than they're used to > (which is > better than just appearing to have make a mistake about how the dance > goes). > [If your personal aesthetics are sufficiently in opposition to that of > your > dancers, you won't get many repeat gigs, but having a distinct - and > agreeable, > if unexpected - aesthetic and the ability to communicate it makes a caller > distinctive and memorable (in good ways). > > > -- Alan > > > -- > =============================================================================== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 > Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA > 94025 > =============================================================================== > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:52:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:51:32 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" "Marge Cramton" Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 23-May-2006 06:26 PM Please respond to ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message Size: 6.8 KB To cc Subject [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions about this question: How important is it that callers call a dance "correctly"? Where's the line between the license we give people who have developed a personal style and might be making changes in a coherent and thoughtful manner (as I think Alan is describing) and callers who may not have extensive calling experience and credentials and are (we think) just plain wrong about how the dance goes? Or is this dancing all just a folk thing and we (as dancers or as organizers) should be nonjudgmental, since we've asked the caller to call? Marge The first question - how important is it that the dance be called "correctly" depends on how you define it. "Correctly" to me usually means that the calls are what the particular crowd at that specific event needed or desired (and those are not always the same thing). As callers we usually try to "educate" as well as gratify the dancers and sometimes they can be in conflict. The proportions of those two things varies on the event. At a one time wedding I am mostly trying to gratify and at a workshop I am mostly trying to educate and in between is every shade of gray. If one is uncertain whether careful thought or ignorance is the source of the differences, I see nothing wrong with approaching the caller (at a separate time like at the end of the evening) to discuss it. Suggest that you learned it differently or interpret the original instructions as such and such and then ask how they came up with their version. If it was modified for specific reasons, you allow the person to explain. If it is simply personal preference, then you know. If it was learned through the folk process and the caller doesn't know the other version, they may be grateful to learn of it. If they just plain forgot how it was supposed to go, they can confide this to you outside the public arena of the dance event itself. I think it is good to offer your own knowlege and preferences to the caller but it needs to be done in a tactful way or defensiveness may ruin the potential for it to have a beneficial effect on their calling in the future. I have to say that I have often witnessed a school teacher for example getting the instructions all wrong but if the kids are having a great time, I just let it continue. In such cases where things are such a mess you don't know where to start I generally invite the leader to attend a local dance "to get more repertoire to use for next year's event." CK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:08:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <000601c67ebd$94bed190$0301000a-AT-DavidDell> From: "David Green" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: References: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:06:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few comments off the top of my head about changes to dances: a) The "folk process" does not generally improve what it processes; it tends (always with exceptions) to homogenize things and make them less interessting. b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. c) I'd adhere much more strictly to the details of dances worked out and published on paper by careful modern choreographers (Pat Shaw, Gary Roodman, Fried Herman, to name a few) and to "canonical" collections of reconstructions (e.g. Keller & Shimer, Andrew Shaw's Kynaston) than to less carefully produced material. There's generally a very good reason for the dances to be as they are published. d) With such a huge reportory available, there's little (not "no") need to simplify more complex dances to fit the needs of less experienced dancers. And there may be a downside: if they learn an adapted dance, they may have an unpleasant surprise when they encounter the unadapted version. -- David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mo" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:45 PM Subject: [ECD] Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) > Do people think we should call dances the way they were written, or should > the "folk process" be allowed. > E.g. I dance (and sometimes call) Shandy Hall at 2 clubs. One does it as > written; Circle half way for 3 couples, the end couple R hand turn. At the > other it is called with a 2 hand turn, so that you do not let go of > partner. > Then there is "I care not for these Ladies" which Tom Cook published in 2 > versions, 'as written' and 'as danced' > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:17:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:16:04 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" David Green makes some good points. One comment about an instance where I may feel the urge to adapt an inappropriate dance to suit the capabilities of the crowd: Occasionally I decide that a particular tune needs to happen (I recall one instance when it was Nonesuch) regardless of the inexperience of the dancers. In such cases, I instruct a reduced variant that they will find satisfying. I do not neglect to point out what I have done so they are not "surprised" when they encounter the real thing. If there are experienced dancers in the crowd I explain at the beginning so they know what I am up to whereas if it's all beginners, I wait until they have done the "dumbed-down" variant so they don't get worried. CK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:31:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:11:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) To: David Green CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01M2RNN1TITSCQ58OB-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original References: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> David Green wrote: > A few comments off the top of my head about changes to dances: > a) The "folk process" does not generally improve what it processes; it tends > (always with exceptions) to homogenize things and make them less > interessting. (The tendency for any folk processing is to make the thing being processed more like the rest of the stuff the group doing the processing does. Folk processed variations from different groups may be less-homogenized; the folk-processing done by, eg, Merrye Pryanksters (RenFaire performance team) makes things less like CD*NY or BACDS dances, while making them more like Pryanksters dances.) > b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, > Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. In order to make this a statement that can be agreed with, you need a definition of "folk dancing" that's universally accepted. Good luck! [My claim when the list argued about this, sometime in the last century, was that dances that started out in the performance/dancing-master/high aesthetic realm, with a small industry that supported them, are now transmitted by non-professionals to non-professionals, in a folk-like manner. We shouldn't be confused by "country dancing" into thinking that this is, historically, the dance of poor farmers, but I haven't seen a convincing-to-me argument that it's not folk-dancing now. (One argument that _really_ failed to convince me was Julia Sutton's statement that it can't be folk dancing because the people who do it are literate members of the middle class.) > c) I'd adhere much more strictly to the details of dances worked out and > published on paper by careful modern choreographers (Pat Shaw, Gary Roodman, > Fried Herman, to name a few) and to "canonical" collections of > reconstructions (e.g. Keller & Shimer, Andrew Shaw's Kynaston) than to less > carefully produced material. There's generally a very good reason for the > dances to be as they are published. Keller&Shimer were pretty clear that they were recording how the dances were done in a specific place at a specific time, rather than setting down "the right way". Because they did such an excellent job, TPB has become prescriptive for many callers outside of New York, but that doesn't mean that it _should_ be. (I applaud them for including original dance texts, incidentally, but this only makes obvious some changes that are historically dubious, eg starting Northdown Waltz with M1&W2 rather than W1&M2, and having ballroom-position-waltz a few years before it was legitimized in England, instead of the whole poussette that belongs there. So I have no issues - especially at "Regency" dances, even in modern English style - in doing what the text plainly says instead of the interpretation K&S published, and I don't believe makes it wrong. (I don't think it's wrong to do it their way, either.) > d) With such a huge reportory available, there's little (not "no") need to > simplify more complex dances to fit the needs of less experienced dancers. > And there may be a downside: if they learn an adapted dance, they may have > an unpleasant surprise when they encounter the unadapted version. Agreed, certainly, and I'm personally very hesitant to adapt complex dance. The example of the "not no need" is when you're stuck with either a few recorded tunes or a band that can only play the stuff on the set list you sent them a month ago, and then you've not got much choice. Horses for courses on the "encountering the unadapted version" problem. I think Mo's dance-club dancers probably don't dance much outside their own clubs, so it's not doing them much disservice. And on the other hand, there are enough carefully produced and published variants (Childgrove: Sharp, Kennedy (like Sharp but improper), Shaw?) that this experience can't be avoided altogether by dancers who dance in other communities on occasion. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:18:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:47:59 -0400 Subject: [ECD] speaking of Collier's Daughter... Message-ID: <20060523.201712.-384339.0.FFuerst-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fae Fuerst Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Alan wrote: > I think they're obliged to try to understand the choices made by the choreographer/interpreter and not > reject them out of ignorance. (There's a reason the four changes in "Collier's Daughter" is done without hands.) What is it? I thought it just followed the common pattern of fast changes/no hands, slow changes/hands. I'd like to put in a plug for the slightly-changed version of Collier's Daughter that Mary Kay Friday taught in Ann Arbor just before she died. I'd never seen it before and don't know where she got it, and have only danced it once since then, though C's D is being done more these days. It has the twos move up both times when the ones cross and go below (thus removing the fudge of the dance's conversion from a triple minor). Then they lead down to meet their ones for the circle, which has a really nice feel (IMO) and gives the twos something more to do. Fae Fuerst ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:18:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:17:04 -0400 Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) Message-ID: <20060523.201712.-384339.1.FFuerst-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fae Fuerst Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu With everyone and their sister writing dances these days, I think there's more awareness of what makes good choreography, which is a great thing. It's probably unfortunate that this is accompanied by an increased tendency to second-guess the choices of living choreographers, but the genie's not going back in the bottle any time soon. Some choreographers are open to improvements and this can lead to multiple versions...it's a messy world. Quite often the "classic" versions of dances -- the ones many of us learned first -- have turned out to be creative rather than solidly accurate reconstructions. Frustrating for purists! After discovering umpteen times that the horrible "new" version is actually a more faithful reconstruction, and also seeing dances being written and changed day-to-day, I can't find a guiding principle -- I just go with what I like best. So I don't see why the dumbed-down version of Barham Down needs to exist, but in Tallis' Canon I dance my own version of the progression. (And fantasize that Pat Shaw would have fixed it that way if he'd had time.) Fae Fuerst ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:38:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:31:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: [ECD] speaking of Collier's Daughter... To: Fae Fuerst CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01M2RPYDRBD6CP6BXR-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Fae wrote: > > > I think they're obliged to try to understand the choices made by the > choreographer/interpreter and not > > reject them out of ignorance. (There's a reason the four changes in > "Collier's Daughter" is done without hands.) > What is it? I thought it just followed the common pattern of fast > changes/no hands, slow changes/hands. That's pretty much it, although I think I'd internalized that pattern as "walking - hands; skipping - no hands"; in fact, this is an extreme case of the fast walking circular hey. > I'd like to put in a plug for the slightly-changed version of Collier's > Daughter that Mary Kay Friday taught in Ann Arbor just before she died. > I'd never seen it before and don't know where she got it, and have only > danced it once since then, though C's D is being done more these days. It > has the twos move up both times when the ones cross and go below (thus > removing the fudge of the dance's conversion from a triple minor). Then > they lead down to meet their ones for the circle, which has a really nice > feel (IMO) and gives the twos something more to do. Hmm. I think I need a fuller explanation; aren't the 2s then leading down _while_ the 1s are leading up, and at the time that happens, isn't there a couple interpolated between each original pair of 1s and 2s? (I could imagine a Punchbowl-esque "1s bulge out and go up while 2s go down the middle; 2s continue down while 1s meet and lead up to their own 2s". What was actually done?) -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:16:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:15:20 -0400 From: susan-AT-elegantarts.org Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) Message-ID: <20060524041520.GB21467-AT-lse.org> References: <20060523.201712.-384339.1.FFuerst-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Interesting topic. Calling in a historical workshop setting, I call dances as written in the original sources, to the best of my ability to determine what was meant. If I have to make a change because I just can't make the dance work as written, I state that I've done so, with whatever amount of detail is appropriate to the audience. If I don't have the original source and thus the ability to make my own reconstruction, I don't call a dance. I don't make changes just to make it more fun or more aesthetically pleasing; if I feel a dance is not a good one, I just don't do it. There are plenty of others to be done instead. If I am calling in historical character at a ball, I don't do the footnoting except as I can work it into a period style - I might say we are doing Mrs. Henderson's double quadrille or one the latest new dances from Mr. Wilson. If for some reason I were to be calling a MECD evening - and people are not exactly breaking down my door begging me to do this - then I would take the same approach, crediting the other reconstructor or choreographer as the case may be and noting if I've made changes. I probably wouldn't do many/any of my own reconstructions just because it's tiring/tiresome to have to try to break peoples' habits. (It's easier if my reconstruction is really, really different; small changes are harder than large ones, as I always discover when I go to MECD events.) So there would be a difference for me between calling "Female Saylor, from 1706" and "Pat Shaw's reconstruction of Female Saylor" and "Pat Shaw's reconstruction of Female Saylor, and we're going to try it a little differently tonight..." (Example picked because I happen to know who reconstructed the MECD version of that one without looking it up.) If I were to call a modern choreography, I'd probably go to the trouble of tracking down the original so I can know if whatever version I'd picked up had been folk-processed. I wouldn't necessarily go back to the original if I liked the folk-processed one better, but I'd feel better for being able to give the proper credit and note that it's evolved a bit. For me, making changes is less the issue than knowing that one has done so (ignorance is not bliss for me) and being straightforward with others about it. The latter is especially important to me because people who hire me generally know I do historical work, so they have certain expectations about things NOT having been folk-processed. I thus feel an obligation to point out when I'm making changes (and explain why if anyone wants to ask me later, and people do ask) if I can do so without harming a reenactment atmosphere. Random example (not a country dance): I'm to call an 1880's ball in a couple of weeks. I'm using a mid-1880's quadrille with changes as follows: - I'm not calling all five figures lest the ball grind to a halt in teaching them all. Doing three figures instead of all five is typical at Victorian-recreation social events since most people don't have the advantage of having entire quadrilles already memorized, as would have been the preference in the 19th century. - I've taken the first two figures and made one change: substituting two normal ladies' chains (heads and sides) for a double ladies' chain and "same for the gents", first because "same for the gents" is a little unclear to me in this particular context and secondly because a double ladies' chain is more difficult than a normal one for newbies to perform in the time given. There's no workshop and I've been warned that the newbie-percentage will be high. Again, I don't want to either grind the event to a halt by taking extra time to teach it or sacrifice some quadrille sets to chaos because people can't get through it in time with the music. - For a third figure, I'm using a fancy figure found in a variety of period sources. Substituting a fancy figure for a final figure is legitimate period practice, though more typical in a plain quadrille than a specialized one like this. I'm doing it because the other three figures all present choreographic challenges of one sort of another and the fancy figure is a) fun and b) easy for newbies. Since I'm calling in moderate historical character, I will announce it by name and composer (not by year), and I won't announce any changes except the fancy figure (since that's period, and I may call it a "promiscuous figure" if I feel the need to lighten the mood). If anyone asks me about the quadrille, and someone probably will, I'll also tell them that I tweaked the ladies' chain figure for ease of dancing at a non-workshop event. If they want to geek about it, they can email me after the event and I'll send 'em my notes. And all that was probably way more than anyone wanted to know... Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 23:21:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.1.20060524001318.02b6b460-AT-mail.oz.net> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:22:19 -0700 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Paul / Victoria Bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] English Dance Performance at Folklife References: <6.2.1.2.0.20060502100712.02a33ba8-AT-pop.sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi For those of you attending the Northwest Folklife Festival Nonesuch will be performing a program of English dances in the Center House at noon on Monday May 29th. The performance will be followed by a brief dance workshop, taught by Russell Owen. Musicians for both events are Kimberly McKittrick, Charles Coldwell and Julie King. We'd love to see you all there! Victoria Bestock ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 03:19:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 07:17:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [ECD] speaking of Collier's Daughter... Message-ID: <20060524.071729.-296737.0.FFuerst-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fae Fuerst Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Also, I now see that the twos probably "move" down rather than leading down, taking hands once they can. Fae > Then they lead down to meet their ones for the circle >> aren't the 2s then leading down _while_ the 1s are leading up ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:52:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:50:35 -0400 From: "Gene Murrow" Subject: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) To: Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <00b801c67f52$2f166340$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <000601c67ebd$94bed190$0301000a-AT-DavidDell> David Green wrote: > b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, > Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context of my original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by "dancing masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, deportment, etc and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that could afford the time and money to pursue it. Today, English country dancing in its full sense (including the historical, but also barn dances, "knees up" community events, ceidlidh, and modern English country dances) certainly could fit a reasonable definition of folk dancing. Indeed, in England it's _all_ called "folk dancing," for better or worse. Gene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:03:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) References: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <000601c67ebd$94bed190$0301000a-AT-DavidDell> <00b801c67f52$2f166340$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> Message-ID: <05949662-5E3B-4458-9811-F7F667FAF4CB-AT-research.neu.edu> From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 13:02:34 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On May 24, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Gene Murrow wrote: > David Green wrote: > >> b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in >> your mouth, >> Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. > > Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context > of my > original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- > 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by > "dancing > masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, > deportment, etc > and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that > could > afford the time and money to pursue it. Well, I can't resist. How do you account for the way "steps" fit into this process Gene? Although much was controlled by an internal hierarchy, the use and development of steps seems to be a folk process. Perhaps this accounts for why nobody documented them. Best, Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:28:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Daniel J Walkowitz" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 13:32:28 -0400 Message-ID: <004901c67f58$07697840$c63b7a80-AT-nyuwwxi0083eh8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an historian I am less interested in whether Gene (or the rest of us) is right or wrong then in how he understands folk dancing. [That is the current discourse on the folk and folk dance.] My sense is that the folklorists (and Stephanie can weigh in) themselves disagree. The traditionalists would reflect Gene's view that rejects instructed dances by elites as folk dance; the more prevalent tendency at present is to see all these as folk forms embraced by different 'folk': so I would suggest that the historical Playford dances (and much of what is done in the US today) as folk dance by urban (a term in the new millenuium that urbanists use to include what where earlier distinguished from suburban) villagers -- it is what professional-technical middle-class folk do. danny Director of College Honors Professor of Social and Cultural Analysis Professor of History 41 E. 11th Street, rm 715 New York University New York, New York 10003 tel. 212-998-8091 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Gene Murrow Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:51 PM To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) David Green wrote: > b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, > Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context of my original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by "dancing masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, deportment, etc and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that could afford the time and money to pursue it. Today, English country dancing in its full sense (including the historical, but also barn dances, "knees up" community events, ceidlidh, and modern English country dances) certainly could fit a reasonable definition of folk dancing. Indeed, in England it's _all_ called "folk dancing," for better or worse. Gene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:38:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <004101c67f58$acbc29a0$0200a8c0-AT-trevormo> From: "Trev" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: References: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <000601c67ebd$94bed190$0301000a-AT-DavidDell> <00b801c67f52$2f166340$0200a8c0-AT-DELLLAPTOP> Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:36:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gene wrote:- > Today, English country dancing in its full sense (including the historical, > but also barn dances, "knees up" community events, ceidlidh, and modern > English country dances) certainly could fit a reasonable definition of folk > dancing. Indeed, in England it's _all_ called "folk dancing," for better or > worse. > Or "country dancing" or "barn dancing" or "ceilidh dancing" to add but a few! Trev ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:07:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started now that we're started) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:05:47 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Danny, Generally the ECD I do is "folk dance" in the way I use the term. It fits into our lives as Swedish folk dances do in Sweden, for example. We do it for fun, recreation, and social reasons and it fills some sort of gap of something we are missing in the rest of our lives. Much of the ECD repertoire (90% of mine) may be from the Playford collections but that is just personal taste - I love the tunes and the dances of that period. Although I enjoy history and the feeling of tracing a pattern on the floor that pleased people from a different century, this is not the reason I dance. It is to reground myself, take a respite from the rat race of the rest of my life, and to meet other nice people. These dances are "owned" by the people who do them and they are in constant state of slow evolution with the changes often reverting to previous interpretations (i.e., undoing previous alterations) so that they don't really become wholly new dances. Although I know that many people think of Folk dancing as the performances they see by troupes in costume, when we perform or when we endeavor to recreate a historical rendition of an ECD, it no longer feels like "folkdancing" to me. The styling and the enthusiasm is no longer a product of my daily life, but a more contrived effort to demonstrate something for the education of ourselves and others. This is the work rather of academicians and performers and it has its own attraction. "Traditional" is as convoluted a term as "folk" and is also used for opposite meanings. I'm sure everyone else definitions will be unique. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:20:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060524181911.53153.qmail-AT-web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1165113117-1148494750=:50191" --0-1165113117-1148494750=:50191 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context of my original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by "dancing masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, deportment, etc and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that could afford the time and money to pursue it." Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government. -- Tom Paine --0-1165113117-1148494750=:50191 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

"Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context of my
original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th-
18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by "dancing
masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, deportment, etc
and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that could
afford the time and money to pursue it."

Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about?

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government.
-- Tom Paine

--0-1165113117-1148494750=:50191-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:17:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060524191635.59406.qmail-AT-web53406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:16:35 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Brady Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-661062817-1148498195=:57839" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-661062817-1148498195=:57839 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought that it had been well established that ECD did NOT mean 'dancing from the country'. Is it not that 'country' is a derivation of the French 'contre' i.e. opposite as in longways dances with your partner opposite you. But we love to invent traditions so what people are told they will believe. CJB. tom.vincent-AT-yahoo.com wrote: "Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context of my original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by "dancing masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, deportment, etc and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that could afford the time and money to pursue it." Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Tom Vincent -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government. -- Tom Paine --0-661062817-1148498195=:57839 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought that it had been well established that ECD did NOT mean 'dancing from the country'. Is it not that 'country' is a derivation of the French 'contre' i.e. opposite as in longways dances with your partner opposite you. But we love to invent traditions so what people are told they will believe. CJB.

tom.vincent-AT-yahoo.com wrote:

"Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context of my
original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th-
18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by "dancing
masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, deportment, etc
and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that could
afford the time and money to pursue it."

Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about?

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Tom Vincent
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government.
-- Tom Paine

--0-661062817-1148498195=:57839-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:25:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:24:23 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Tom asks: Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? Partial reply from Cammy - There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk spent time at their "country" estates. There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had folk origins. There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of humor). From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to see some from the dance leaders. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:44:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:42:58 -0400 From: DavBarnert-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2D755AFB.41E0A8C9.0ACF18CD-AT-aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marge Cramton wrote: > I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions about this > question: How important is it that callers call a dance > "correctly"? There's another side to calling dances differently than written, which (admittedly) is probably pretty uncommon, but an example of it came to mind immediately when I saw the question stated as Marge puts it. I speak not of the instructions for a dance in terms of what the dancers are to do, but of the instructions for a dance in terms of how they are phrased. My example concerns not an ECD but a contra dance. Twenty some-odd years ago, I first heard Tony Parkes call his "Inflation Reel." As many know, Tony takes pride in calling dances with a rhythmic patter that is perfectly timed to anticipate the needs of the dancers. This dance has a figure that Tony called thus: "All join hands, circle four. Once around and a quarter more." He taught the dance, he started calling it, and round after round, as the dancers became more and more familiar with it, he called less and less. Long after he stopped calling the rest of the dance, though, he continued to call the above quoted line intact. Then he dropped all the calling except the words "... and a quarter more." He never stopped calling that one phrase, all the way to the end of the dance, every 32 bars, "and a quarter more." Get it? Inflation Reel. A quarter more. A quarter more. A quarter more. Once, years later, I heard a well-known caller call the same dance. She taught it "once and a quarter around to the left" or something like that, and nothing in her calling suggested that the got the joke. I pointed it out to her later (of course) and, indeed, she had no clue. ______ /\/\/\/\ <______> | | | | | David Barnert <______> | | | | | <______> | | | | | Albany, NY <______> \/\/\/\/ Ventilator Concertina Bellows Bellows (Vocation) (Avocation) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:44:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060524194319.72770.qmail-AT-web53412.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:43:19 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Brady Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2105025782-1148499799=:70034" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-2105025782-1148499799=:70034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steps did indeed get incorporated into ECD, quadrilles and other 'folk dances' and they WERE recorded and collected and published - by people like Tom & Joan Flett for a start. It was the formal dance societies (EFDSS, RSCDS) that couldn't be bothered to teach them and perpetuate them. The old peripatetic dancing masters certainly did. I refer you to Trad. Dancing in Lakeland and Trad. Social Dancing in Scotland and Trad. Step Dancing in Scotland - all by the Fletts. CJB. Terence Gaffney wrote: On May 24, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Gene Murrow wrote: > David Green wrote: > >> b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in >> your mouth, >> Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. > > Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context > of my > original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- > 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by > "dancing > masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, > deportment, etc > and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that > could > afford the time and money to pursue it. Well, I can't resist. How do you account for the way "steps" fit into this process Gene? Although much was controlled by an internal hierarchy, the use and development of steps seems to be a folk process. Perhaps this accounts for why nobody documented them. Best, Terry --0-2105025782-1148499799=:70034 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steps did indeed get incorporated into ECD, quadrilles and other 'folk dances' and they WERE recorded and collected and published - by people like Tom & Joan Flett for a start. It was the formal dance societies (EFDSS, RSCDS) that couldn't be bothered to teach them and perpetuate them. The old peripatetic dancing masters certainly did. I refer you to Trad. Dancing in Lakeland and Trad. Social Dancing in Scotland and Trad. Step Dancing in Scotland - all by the Fletts. CJB.

Terence Gaffney <gaff-AT-research.neu.edu> wrote:

On May 24, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Gene Murrow wrote:

> David Green wrote:
>
>> b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in
>> your mouth,
>> Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing.
>
> Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context
> of my
> original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th-
> 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by
> "dancing
> masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style,
> deportment, etc
> and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that
> could
> afford the time and money to pursue it.

Well, I can't resist. How do you account for the way "steps" fit into
this process Gene? Although much was controlled by an internal
hierarchy, the use and development of steps seems to be a folk
process. Perhaps this accounts for why nobody documented them.

Best,
Terry

--0-2105025782-1148499799=:70034-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:00:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060524195904.6247.qmail-AT-web53402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:59:04 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Brady Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1934357582-1148500744=:5871" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1934357582-1148500744=:5871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates." What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular. The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times. And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord. Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research. CJB. Campbell Kaynor wrote: Tom asks: Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? Partial reply from Cammy - There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk spent time at their "country" estates. There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had folk origins. There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of humor). From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to see some from the dance leaders. Cammy --0-1934357582-1148500744=:5871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
"There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates."

What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular.

The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times.

And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord.

Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research.

CJB.

Campbell Kaynor <campbell.kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM> wrote:

Tom asks:
Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances
in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes?
Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about?

Partial reply from Cammy -
There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is
that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk
spent time at their "country" estates.
There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done
by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had
folk origins.
There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to
imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of
humor).

From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me
that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance
choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that
it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's
melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master
to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing
from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to
see some from the dance leaders.

Cammy

--0-1934357582-1148500744=:5871-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:09:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:07:15 -0400 Subject: [ECD] Add'l musical terms. Message-ID: <20060524.160719.2228.6.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sol Weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Re new musical terms, some folks responded by sending some add'l ones.... Basso Profoundo - a singer who can actually discuss Kafka without embarrassing himself. Tessi Tura - a stripper from Gypsy Allegro non Trippo - walking at a lively but careful pace onto the stage Any more out there? Do send them to me, off line. Tried out my Gower Wassail the other night, with the final improvements. Worked well. If interested, do contact me (again, off line). Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; web: http://roundz.tripod.com (DON'T use 'www') ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:13:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:14:54 -0400 From: susan-AT-elegantarts.org Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Message-ID: <20060524201454.GA6798-AT-lse.org> References: <20060524195904.6247.qmail-AT-web53402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, May 24, 2006 at 08:59:04PM +0100, Chris Brady wrote: > What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from > the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term > contra dancing). Was "contre danse" in use prior to "country dance", which is used in the title of first ed. Playford, and crops up in manuscript sources well prior to that? Is there any evidence that "country" derives from "contre"? I think the terms are related or at least intertwined historically, but I think I really want to see a cite for the derivation you are claiming so definitively. Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:14:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4474D6C2.9060205-AT-yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:57:22 -0400 From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [ECD] Re: Changing minor details of dances (was Terpsichore 3rd figure) References: <200605232145.k4NLj1CH025408-AT-nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got about 5 different versions of 'Childgrove', for example, and at least as many recordings, so that gives me 25 possible combinations, each of which could have a slightly different feel. None of those versions, by the way, are accurate to the original! A slow recording with a simple version is quite different than a quick recording with a complex version. Likewise, I have two very different recordings of 'Duke of Kents Waltz', I think, that are very different: One is slow & stately, the other is perky and feels more like something from Austria. I like encountering new interpretations of dances. I've danced three different versions of 'Newcastle' in one month. Tom Mo wrote: > Do people think we should call dances the way they were written, or should > the "folk process" be allowed. > E.g. I dance (and sometimes call) Shandy Hall at 2 clubs. One does it as > written; Circle half way for 3 couples, the end couple R hand turn. At the > other it is called with a 2 hand turn, so that you do not let go of partner. > Then there is "I care not for these Ladies" which Tom Cook published in 2 > versions, 'as written' and 'as danced' > -- *********** Tom Vincent *********** The new Tom Hanks film is based on a book full of lies, deceit & corruption. It's also based on Dan Brown's "The daVinci Code" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:14:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4474D89E.8020408-AT-yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:05:18 -0400 From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This reminds me of a current discussion on a Medieval/Renaissance cooking e-list I'm on: Whether terms such as 'Swiss Cheese', 'Virginia Ham', 'Canadian Bacon', 'Vidalia Onions' or the like have any meaning other than a vague (or clear) commonality between competing products with the same name. So, 'English Country Dance' is primarily English, mostly *not* from the Country and most definitely Dance. :) Discuss! Tom Campbell Kaynor wrote: > Tom asks: > Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances > in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? > Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? > > Partial reply from Cammy - > There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is > that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk > spent time at their "country" estates. > There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done > by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had > folk origins. > There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to > imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of > humor). > > >From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me > that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance > choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that > it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's > melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master > to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing > from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to > see some from the dance leaders. > > Cammy > > -- *********** Tom Vincent *********** The new Tom Hanks film is based on a book full of lies, deceit & corruption. It's also based on Dan Brown's "The daVinci Code" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:14:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4474D216.8050803-AT-yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:37:26 -0400 From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) References: <20060524191635.59406.qmail-AT-web53406.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can't it be both? I know the *name* 'country' probably came from 'contre', but I also thought that Playford got some of the dances from villages. He didn't just invent them out of thin air, right? Some of the dances have a very 'courtly' feel, some have a very 'country' feel. Tom Chris Brady wrote: > I thought that it had been well established that ECD did NOT mean > 'dancing from the country'. Is it not that 'country' is a derivation > of the French 'contre' i.e. opposite as in longways dances with your > partner opposite you. But we love to invent traditions so what people > are told they will believe. CJB. > > */tom.vincent-AT-yahoo.com/* wrote: > > "Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the > context of my > original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- > 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by > "dancing > masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, > deportment, etc > and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes > that could > afford the time and money to pursue it." > Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the > dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & > style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? > > -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Tom Vincent > -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are > happy; neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my > jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are > not in want, the taxes not oppressive; the rational world is my > friend because I am friend of its happiness; when these things can > be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and > government. > -- Tom Paine > > > > -- *********** Tom Vincent *********** The new Tom Hanks film is based on a book full of lies, deceit & corruption. It's also based on Dan Brown's "The daVinci Code" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:15:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) References: <20060524194319.72770.qmail-AT-web53412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:09:49 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On May 24, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Chris Brady wrote: > Steps did indeed get incorporated into ECD, quadrilles and other > 'folk dances' and they WERE recorded and collected and published - > by people like Tom & Joan Flett for a start. It was the formal > dance societies (EFDSS, RSCDS) that couldn't be bothered to teach > them and perpetuate them. The old peripatetic dancing masters > certainly did. I refer you to Trad. Dancing in Lakeland and Trad. > Social Dancing in Scotland and Trad. Step Dancing in Scotland - all > by the Fletts. CJB. > I don't think this affects my point as the Fletts are modern writers. What I was getting at was that the dance manuals of the time such as the various editions of Playford codified the dances but did not mention the stepping. There must have been a reason for this. My guess is that it was something which was too much a matter of taste to write down. Had there been an accurate and reproducible account of the steps in Playford or other manuals, I'm sure we would be doing them. Do you have support for your statement that "It was the formal dance societies (EFDSS, RSCDS) that couldn't be bothered to teach them "? > Terence Gaffney wrote: > On May 24, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Gene Murrow wrote: > > > David Green wrote: > > > >> b) As Gene Murrow has said (correct me if I'm putting words in > >> your mouth, > >> Gene), ECD is not a form of folk dancing. > > > > Yes, I'll stand by that statement, noting that "ECD" in the context > > of my > > original utterance here in America means Playford, Historical, 17th- > > 18th-century dancing, which was conceived of and promulgated by > > "dancing > > masters" who instructed dancers on figures, proper style, > > deportment, etc > > and which was considered a learned art appropriate for classes that > > could > > afford the time and money to pursue it. > > > Well, I can't resist. How do you account for the way "steps" fit into > this process Gene? Although much was controlled by an internal > hierarchy, the use and development of steps seems to be a folk > process. Perhaps this accounts for why nobody documented them. > > Best, > Terry > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:15:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:46:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Message-ID: <20060524.174614.-647081.1.FFuerst-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_717d.2000.11ea From: Fae Fuerst Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_717d.2000.11ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's no need to leap to disagree here. I don't see any claims that villagers were holding country dance balls or that the dances were originating from the common folk, at least in these posts. Perhaps you're misinterpreting what's actually been said in your haste to air a pet peeve? While we're at it, can we address another element: the distinction between country and court dances. Fae Fuerst On Wed, 24 May 2006 20:59:04 +0100 (BST) Chris Brady writes: "There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates." What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular. The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times. And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. ----__JNP_000_717d.2000.11ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There's no need to leap to disagree here. I don't see any claims=20 that villagers were holding country dance balls or that the dances = were=20 originating from the common folk, at least in these posts. Perhaps you're=20 misinterpreting what's actually been said in your haste to air a pet=20 peeve?

While we're at it, can we address another element: the=20 distinction between country and court dances.

Fae Fuerst

On Wed, 24 May 2006 20:59:04 +0100 (BST) Chris Brady <chrisjbrady-AT-YAHOO.COM> writes:=

"There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country = Dance is=20 that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk = pent=20 time at their "country" estates."

What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for = this=20 blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this=20 whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the = French=20 term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). = These=20 dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed = in=20 the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long = rooms=20 when the longways sets became popular.

The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from = the=20 Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, = Berlin,=20 etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to = teach=20 these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl= .=20 possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included = bed=20 and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the=20 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the=20 fashionable ballrooms of the times.

And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a = room=20 large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance.=20
----__JNP_000_717d.2000.11ea-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:16:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20060524213722.49063.qmail-AT-web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1332323771-1148506642=:46073" --0-1332323771-1148506642=:46073 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I reject any derivation of Country Dances, in the sense in which the early Playford (and other mentions) use the word, from the French "contre." It would be much easier to make the case that French dancing masters, trying to make sense of the category, hit upon the vaguely homonymous "contre" as an equivalent, seeing the descriptive advantages of the word ("See? you're *across* from your lady...."). At the time the English seem to have been cooking up these early dances, the French were more likely to dance bransles (in a "social" context) or pavans and galliards (as "solitude a deux")--it does not stand the test of reason that the English, grasping for terminology, would turn to the French, who were executing dances that operated quite differently. However--this very "false kinship" of country and *contre* suggests, perversely, something akin to both Cammy's & Chris' descriptions. I can't but wonder if Lorin and his ilk said to themselves, "Well, they *can't* mean rural or rustic; they seem to be a phenomenon of city life more than country...so we'll call it something reminiscent of "country."' I agree that "country" does not and did not connote anything in the hempen and homespun line--it may instead have meant chiefly "not at Court." Of course, they *did* sneak into Court settings (vide the famous mention of Elizabeth I's fondness for them; or fast-forward to Charles II's fondness for them), and some of them may have been intended to suggest "rural sports" or the life of the ordinary folk, but in about the same way that Marie Antoinette played shepherdess. Graham Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit. ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Brady To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:59:04 PM Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) "There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates." What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular. The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times. And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord. Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research. CJB. Campbell Kaynor wrote: Tom asks: Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? Partial reply from Cammy - There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk spent time at their "country" estates. There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had folk origins. There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of humor). From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to see some from the dance leaders. Cammy --0-1332323771-1148506642=:46073 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I reject any derivation of Country Dances, in the sense in which the early Playford (and other mentions) use the word, from the French "contre." It would be much easier to make the case that French dancing masters, trying to make sense of the category, hit upon the vaguely homonymous "contre" as an equivalent, seeing the descriptive advantages of the word ("See? you're *across* from your lady...."). At the time the English seem to have been cooking up these early dances, the French were more likely to dance bransles (in a "social" context) or pavans and galliards (as "solitude a deux")--it does not stand the test of reason that the English, grasping for terminology, would turn to the French, who were executing dances that operated quite differently.

However--this very "false kinship" of country and *contre* suggests, perversely, something akin to both Cammy's & Chris' descriptions. I can't but wonder if Lorin and his ilk said to themselves, "Well, they *can't* mean rural or rustic; they seem to be a phenomenon of city life more than country...so we'll call it something reminiscent of "country."'

I agree that "country" does not and did not connote anything in the hempen and homespun line--it may instead have meant chiefly "not at Court." Of course, they *did* sneak into Court settings (vide the famous mention of Elizabeth I's fondness for them; or fast-forward to Charles II's fondness for them), and some of them may have been intended to suggest "rural sports" or the life of the ordinary folk, but in about the same way that Marie Antoinette played shepherdess.
Graham
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit.

----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Brady <chrisjbrady-AT-yahoo.com>
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:59:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!)

"There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates."

What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular.

The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times.

And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord.

Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research.

CJB.

Campbell Kaynor <campbell.kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM> wrote:

Tom asks:
Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances
in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes?
Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about?

Partial reply from Cammy -
There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is
that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk
spent time at their "country" estates.
There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done
by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had
folk origins.
There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to
imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of
humor).

From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me
that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance
choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that
it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's
melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master
to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing
from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to
see some from the dance leaders.

Cammy

--0-1332323771-1148506642=:46073-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:16:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <380-2200653242213203-AT-mindspring.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "porterwm-AT-mindspring.com" To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:13:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_219011224259682213203" ------=_NextPart_219011224259682213203 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Well Chis, I was going to leave this to the cognoscenti, but I can't help but make a few observations on your comments. > What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). Firstly, the nobility engaged in a good deal of "romantic rubbish" about the peasantry during the time of Playford and after. Hence not surprising that they might tack the name "country" on whatever they supposed was charmingly simple, perhaps in comparison to court dances, whether there was a factual connection or not. And there may indeed have been. It is easier to borrow than invent. Secondly, your statment about the derivation of the term "country" dancing, as extending initially from "contre" meaning opposite, seems the opposite direction from what we mostly hear - that this was a corruption en francais of the English term. But do also consider the following under the derivation of our word "country": [Middle English countre, from Old French contree, from Vulgar Latin *(terra) contrata, (land) opposite, before, from Latin contra, opposite.] Now it could be that "contra" or "contree" is a direct translation into (or from?) Old French, but that appears to have died out by 1300. However, I will leave the question to any interested linguists to say whether *all* terms of OF died out at the same time in all places - I strongly suspect not. In any case, we do know without question that during Playford's time, the English courtly classes aped French customs and their French peers aped many English customs, although they might have been more loath to admit it. So there was a lot of back and forth, maybe the only thing we can say for sure. > The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times. Ahem...and your factual, historical bases for this statement are...? Well certainly they came from fashionable sources, but does that preclude sophisticated modifications to something they found the country folk doing? How do we know? > And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Perhaps they had no barns in Playford's day. Maybe those were invented later. As I understand it, as documented a century or so later, a lot of dancing in Scotland and Ireland was in fact done out of doors. The steps documented in one of the Fletts' books, which I owned at one time, were especially well suited to rough ground as opposed to smooth ballroom floors. IIRC. Also Cammy mentions something you do not comment on, but is interesting and persuasive to me. Musical borrowing. If they did indeed borrow tunes and songs from the riff-raff, why not dances or at the least, steps and formations? From my readings, I suspect that these cultural boundaries weren't so water-tight as in later days or in some present imaginations. Just a guess. = Bill (in Atlanta) ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Sent: 5/24/2006 4:04:59 PM Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) "There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates." What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular. The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times. And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord. Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research. CJB. ------=_NextPart_219011224259682213203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Well Chis, I was going to leave this to the cognoscenti, but I can't help but make a few observations on your comments.

> What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing).

Firstly, the nobility engaged in a good deal of "romantic rubbish" about the peasantry during the time of Playford and after. Hence not surprising that they might tack the name "country" on whatever they supposed was charmingly simple, perhaps in comparison to court dances, whether there was a factual connection or not. And there may indeed have been. It is easier to borrow than invent.

Secondly, your statment about the derivation of the term "country" dancing, as extending initially from "contre" meaning opposite, seems the opposite direction from what we mostly hear - that this was a corruption en francais of the English term. But do also consider the following under the derivation of our word "country":

[Middle English countre, from Old French contree, from Vulgar Latin *(terra) contrata, (land) opposite, before, from Latin contra, opposite.]

Now it could be that "contra" or "contree" is a direct translation into (or from?) Old French, but that appears to have died out by 1300. However, I will leave the question to any interested linguists to say whether *all* terms of OF died out at the same time in all places - I strongly suspect not. In any case, we do know without question that during Playford's time, the English courtly classes aped French customs and their French peers aped many English customs, although they might have been more loath to admit it. So there was a lot of back and forth, maybe the only thing we can say for sure.

> The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times.

Ahem...and your factual, historical bases for this statement are...? Well certainly they came from fashionable sources, but does that preclude sophisticated modifications to something they found the country folk doing? How do we know?

> And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance.

Perhaps they had no barns in Playford's day. Maybe those were invented later. As I understand it, as documented a century or so later, a lot of dancing in Scotland and Ireland was in fact done out of doors. The steps documented in one of the Fletts' books, which I owned at one time, were especially well suited to rough ground as opposed to smooth ballroom floors. IIRC.

Also Cammy mentions something you do not comment on, but is interesting and persuasive to me. Musical borrowing. If they did indeed borrow tunes and songs from the riff-raff, why not dances or at the least, steps and formations? From my readings, I suspect that these cultural boundaries weren't so water-tight as in later days or in some present imaginations. Just a guess.

= Bill (in Atlanta)

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Brady

To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu

Sent: 5/24/2006 4:04:59 PM

Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!)

"There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates."

What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular.

The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times.

And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord.

Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research.

CJB.
------=_NextPart_219011224259682213203-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:17:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Daniel J Walkowitz" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:20:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c67f77$d1cd5b50$c63b7a80-AT-nyuwwxi0083eh8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67F56.4ABBBB50" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67F56.4ABBBB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What of Sellingers' Round, Peascods, Maid Peeped Out, etc. Would these have not had village origins before the 17th century? danny Director of College Honors Professor of Social and Cultural Analysis Professor of History 41 E. 11th Street, rm 715 New York University New York, New York 10003 tel. 212-998-8091 _____ From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Brady Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:59 PM To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as folk dance (don't get us started!) "There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk pent time at their "country" estates." What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms when the longways sets became popular. The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times. And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their landlord. Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the upper classes of Britain (and Scotland and Ireland) became very wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from historical research. CJB. Campbell Kaynor wrote: Tom asks: Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the dances in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style classes? Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about? Partial reply from Cammy - There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich folk spent time at their "country" estates. There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were done by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably had folk origins. There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying to imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source of humor). From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to me that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting that it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court composer's melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing master to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much borrowing from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising to see some from the dance leaders. Cammy ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67F56.4ABBBB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What of Sellingers’ Round, = Peascods, Maid Peeped Out, etc. Would these have not had village origins = before the 17^th century?

danny
=

Director of College = Honors

Professor of Social and Cultural = Analysis

Professor of = History

41 E. 11th = Street, rm 715

New York University

New York, New York 10003

tel. = 212-998-8091

From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu = [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Brady
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, = 2006 3:59 PM
To: = ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: [ECD] ECD as = folk dance (don't get us started!)

"There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called = Country Dance is that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when = rich folk pent time at their "country" = estates."

What utter romantic rubbish. Where's your historical sources for = this blanket statement? Actually there's no historical evidence for this = whatsoever. What we now call 'country' dancing was derived from the French term = 'contre' (aka simiar to what we now-a-days term contra dancing). These dances = were indeed taught by travelling dancing masters and enjoyed in the big = houses of the upper classes and usually in specially built long rooms = when the longways sets became popular.

The dancing masters used to visit the ballrooms and assemblies = from the Royal Courts to the Spa Towns (e.g. Bath, Bristol, Brighton, Paris, = Berlin, etc., etc.) to collect the latest dances and then to bring them back to = teach these (and the steps) to their clients (the owners of the big houses = incl. possibly the estate workers) in return for a fee (which usually included = bed and board). The dances enjoyed by the 'rich folk' did NOT come from the 'country folk' whoever they are/were - the dances came from the fashionable ballrooms of the times.

And there is NO WAY any villager could have afforded a house = with a room large enough to hold a formal (or informal) dance. Most lived in = thatched hovels being taxed out of existence by their = landlord.

Incidently it may be pertinant to mention at this stage that the = upper classes of Britain = (and Scotland and Ireland) became very = wealthy indeed from the cotton - slave trade. Now that has been 'proved' from = historical research.

CJB.

Campbell Kaynor <campbell.kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM> = wrote:

Tom asks:
Gene, can you elaborate on that? Are you saying that none of the = dances
in Playford were done in villages, without deportment & style = classes?
Isn't that what the term 'Country Dance' is all about?

Partial reply from Cammy -
There is no doubt that one of the reasons it was called Country Dance = is
that it is a type of dancing that was popular recreation when rich = folk
spent time at their "country" estates.
There is also no doubt that some figures and dances of this type were = done
by much lower class folk and a few of the Playford dances probably = had
folk origins.
There also seemed to be some trading with lower class people trying = to
imitate the dances of the wealthy and vice versa (often as a source = of
humor).

From a musical standpoint, the same stuff was going on and it seems to = me
that there is a correlation between the level of refined dance
choreography and the level of sophistication of the melody suggesting = that
it was rare for lower class folk to invent a dance to a court = composer's
melody and perhaps less rare but still not so common for a dancing = master
to compose a dance to a peasant song. However, there was much = borrowing
from the lower classes by the court composers so it is not surprising = to
see some from the dance leaders.

Cammy

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67F56.4ABBBB50-- ============================================================================