Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:32:05 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040501093144.26106.qmail-AT-web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 02:31:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: line dance To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- allisonthompson-AT-JUNO.COM wrote: > Interesting thesis! One little thing: the paragraph where you say > that country dances are still practiced in Anglo-American > traditions in the form of "line dances and square dances"....in > America "line dances" are something done to popular country-western > music. I always think of those things from Eastern Europe done by international dancers as "line dances", more related to what the Norwegians call "langdans". How did that evolve into Country and Western line dancing? Andy in Portland __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 08:31:28 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: catiegeist-AT-att.net Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: line dance Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:31:04 +0000 Message-ID: <050120041531.14135.4093C2B800021372000037372160280748FF8B8C969A989A968B9E-AT-att.net> Dear Andy, The line dances in International Folk Dancing are more like semi-circles (or serpentine lines) where there is a leader and everyone is holding hands in one long line, watching what the leader is doing with his/her feet and arms and hands, etc. Country and Western line dancing is done with everyone as a separate entity, facing the same way in lines, not holding hands. The C&W dancers need to be separate because many times the dancers take a quarter turn at the end of each time through the dance to face another "wall" to do the dance again, and then turn to face the next wall after that time through. It just occurred to me that folk dancing is more of a community dance, done in villages and groups, and C&W line dancing is more individual dancing, done in conjunction with other dancers, but it could be done "all by my lonesome." You could certainly do an international folk dance by yourself, but it's much more fun and social to have a long line of dancers holding hands. Catie Condran Geist (Palm Bay, Florida) > --- allisonthompson-AT-JUNO.COM wrote: > > Interesting thesis! One little thing: the paragraph where you say > > that country dances are still practiced in Anglo-American > > traditions in the form of "line dances and square dances"....in > > America "line dances" are something done to popular country-western > > music. > > I always think of those things from Eastern Europe done by > international dancers as "line dances", more related to what the > Norwegians call "langdans". > > How did that evolve into Country and Western line dancing? > > Andy in Portland > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:54:04 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4093E427.8010707-AT-uiuc.edu> Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 12:53:43 -0500 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD List Subject: looking for dance leader suggestions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are in the planning stages for our English-American dance weekend in Urbana, IL, in March of 2005 and I'm looking for suggestions for dance leaders we might want to consider. In the past 3 years we have had Tom Senior, Joseph Pimentel and Scott Higgs. I've got a few thoughts on other possibilities, but I thought it might be worth consulting the great net.wisdom for additional suggestions. I would be glad to hear suggestions and recomendations for dance leaders we might consider. Thanks. Jonathan jsivier-AT-uiuc.edu https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jsivier/www/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 11:24:57 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <1083435879.4093eb6778ace-AT-webmail.uvm.edu> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 14:24:39 -0400 From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: looking for dance leader suggestions References: <4093E427.8010707-AT-uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Jonathan Sivier : > We are in the planning stages for our English-American dance weekend > in Urbana, IL, in March of 2005 and I'm looking for suggestions for > dance leaders we might want to consider. In the past 3 years we have > had Tom Senior, Joseph Pimentel and Scott Higgs. I've got a few > thoughts on other possibilities, but I thought it might be worth > consulting the great net.wisdom for additional suggestions. > > I would be glad to hear suggestions and recomendations for dance > leaders we might consider. Brad Foster comes to mind immediately if you are looking for someone who can do both English and American. For engllish only, or english and Scottish, I would recommend Bruce Hamilton. Leet me know what other suggestions you get. thanks, pb ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 12:22:11 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:20:24 GMT To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: looking for dance leader suggestions Content-Type: text/plain From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040501.122104.21608.14446-AT-webmail17.nyc.untd.com> Sue Dupre is super at both ECD and contra--we have enjoyed having her several times in Pittsburgh--can't say enough good things about her. Allison Thompson -- "Priscilla M. Burrage" wrote: Quoting Jonathan Sivier : > We are in the planning stages for our English-American dance weekend > in Urbana, IL, in March of 2005 and I'm looking for suggestions for > dance leaders we might want to consider. In the past 3 years we have > had Tom Senior, Joseph Pimentel and Scott Higgs. I've got a few > thoughts on other possibilities, but I thought it might be worth > consulting the great net.wisdom for additional suggestions. > > I would be glad to hear suggestions and recomendations for dance > leaders we might consider. Brad Foster comes to mind immediately if you are looking for someone who can do both English and American. For engllish only, or english and Scottish, I would recommend Bruce Hamilton. Leet me know what other suggestions you get. thanks, pb ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 19:41:59 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:41:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: looking for dance leader suggestions Message-ID: References: <20040501.122104.21608.14446-AT-webmail17.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i second allison and priscilla's suggestions. i'd also like to enthusiastically recommend david millstone. he may be better known as a contra caller (rum & onions had the pleasure of working with him for our 2002 halloween dance), but the wednesday night english dance that he called in princeton in january was among the best we've had in the recent past. i should add that the wednesday night series here is unusual because we do contras (etc.) most weeks, and english only about 8 times a year; the english nights draw a mix of contra dancers who didn't look at the schedule before showing up, and others of every level of experience with ECD - from pinewoods regulars to actual and perpetual beginners. susie lorand princeton, NJ, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:51:12 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:48:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L9O2059IDM9ERK4E-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii [Forwarded for Ridge Kennedy] Dear Dance Organizing Colleagues, The J. Appleseed Society is organizing a listserve to serve the needs and interests of dance organizers. "What"? you say. "Who is J. Appleseed?" Another listserve? More e-mail? J. Appleseed is you, if you're involved in running a dance series or special dance events. Answers to the other questions: yes and yes and if you give the idea a chance, I think you'll see it is really worthwhile. Purpose of the List To give dance organizers (Contra, Square, American, English, International, Scandinavian - all forms of participatory dance) an e-mail discussion list where we can compare notes, ask for advice and benefit from the experience of others. Agenda What problems do you have that you'd like to discuss with other organizers? What tips would you like to share? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I have two projects that I want to involve people in: a research effort first and later, an idea for developing a structured approach for enrolling participants as evangelists for their dance. The research project would involve creating a way to get thoughtful feedback from dancers - especially first-time dancers - about what they think and feel about the experience of going to one of our dances. What I have seen, countless times, is that newcomers arrive at a dance, tell us they have had a great time (and we know it's true because we can see them having a great time) and then they never come back. My goal is to get thoughtful feedback from them if at all possible. First, to try to understand what's happening better. Second (there's some principle of physics or some other scientific field related to this - if you measure something you change it) if we reach out to people this way, they may indeed be more likely to come back. I have a process in mind that would use e-mail and a web-based survey tool what would eliminate all of the manual labor involved in research. The response rate would probably be low, but if we got any responses, we would know more than we know now. On the outreach side, there's a marketing idea created by some folks in Chicago called 'creating customer evangelists.' The big idea is to enroll your customers as part of your sales team. That's already how we get many new dancers - friends invite friends and so on. We usually refer to it as 'word of mouth.' So - are there ways we can stimulate this process, add a catalyst and encourage it? My guess is yes. How to join us Two ways: 1) Send a blank e-mail message (no subject, no message) to: mailto:j-appleseed-dance-subscribe-AT-yahoogroups.com 2) Send a regular old message directly to me at mailto:ridge.kennedy-AT-j-appleseed.org and say you'd like to subscribe. If you want to know more about the J. Appleseed Society, go to the website at www.j-appleseed.org and you can read a copy of the 'plan' for a fairly ambitious, non-profit organization dedicated to the encouragement of greater involvement in all kinds of participatory art and cultural activities. Since I wrote the plan, I've discovered that it's pretty darn difficult to get something this ambitious started. But maybe, on step at a time, it could come to pass. We have the non-profit corporation established. We've got a bank account. And now, if you'll join us, maybe we can put together one really terrific listserve for dance organizers. Hey. Ya never know. Thank you very much for your time and consideration. Sincerely, Ridge Ridge Kennedy West Orange, NJ [Exit 145] When you stumble, make it part of the dance. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:57:33 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:52:55 -0700 (PDT) From: MEIER-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: MEIER-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01L9O8I6MIR49F1UR4-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii > Dear Alan, > I'd appreciate it if you'd consider posting the following message to the ECD > list. > Sincerely, > Ridge Kennedy Ridge - Is there any way in the world this list could be set up on something besides Yahoo, home of web bugs, unrequested commercial sharing of email addresses, and cookie depositor for third party businesses of the world? How about Quicktopic (www.quicktopic.com)? They don't ask for anything more than your name and an email address to start a bulletin board, and non-registrants can post freely. Quicktopic also allows people to post via email or web. Best, Vanessa (long-time dance organizer who also values privacy and lack of spam) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 04:40:04 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <83E4F2276C3B2441B7588B87F21C322A2E1736-AT-camntx.cbr.ugs.com> From: "Stewart, Hugh" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "'ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu'" Subject: Anyone know anythin g about the dance Pool's Hole? Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 04:39:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Anyone have any answers to this query? > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Michael Clement" > To: > Subject: Pool's Hole > Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 23:53:15 +0100 > > Hello, > > I am trying to find out historical information regarding the > dance 'Pool's Hole' and was hoping you could help. > > I work at Poole's Cavern (formerly Pool's Hole) and was > wondering if the dance was connected to the cave. > > Any info. available? > > Regards, > > Michael Clement > Marketing Manager > Poole's Cavern > www.poolescavern.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 07:29:43 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4097A8DE.AFB99E46-AT-earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:29:52 -0400 From: "Veronica L. Lane" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Independence Day Weekend with Colin Hume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The English Country Dancers of Jacksonville, Florida, invite you to attend the Independence Day Weekend English Country Dance and Contra Dance featuring Colin Hume. On Saturday, July 3rd, Colin will lead an all-day English dance and evening ball at the Good Shepherd Episcopal Church in Jacksonville. Live music by Full Circle. Cost is $20 before June 19, $23 after and at the door. On July 4th, he will call the regular first Sunday contra dance in Gainesville from 4-7pm at the Thelma Boltin Center. Admission is $6. Details of the weekend and a simple registration form can be found at: http://chdyer.tripod.com/colinhume.html Charlie Dyer chdyer-AT-aya.yale.edu 904-731-7058 home pages: www.DanceFlorida.com http://home.earthlink.net/~full_circle_band/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 08:08:56 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD, Contra, Scandinavian in Minneapolis To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:08:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If you are a good source of info on ECD, Contra, Scandinavian in Minneapolis, contact me off list. I will be there for a conference in early June and would like to sample the local scene in spare moments. Thanks to Roger Broseaus for doing the same for me in DC last year! Thanks, Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 08:18:28 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4097B42E.1010900-AT-uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:18:06 -0500 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general References: <01L9O8I6MIR49F1UR4-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MEIER-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote: >Is there any way in the world this list could be set up on something besides >Yahoo, home of web bugs, unrequested commercial sharing of email addresses, and >cookie depositor for third party businesses of the world? > > I would like to second this sentiment. I'm subscribed to a few Yahoo email lists and get the messages fine, but I have always had trouble posting to them. It's probably just me, but after creating multiple Yahoo accounts and joining the various lists as instructed I am still unable to post messages to them. For the most part I have given up trying to deal with Yahoo. For me there just seem to be too many hoops to jump through. After a while it just isn't worth the effort. Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 09:00:47 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <111C7A5AB1BCD411918A000103212474013C3D21-AT-MAIL1> From: Marge Cramton Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: "'ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu'" Subject: yahoo groups Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:56:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I second what Jonathan said. I've just tried to sign up for the j-appleseed group and now seem to be in an endless loop of confirming my info (and each time they turn on all the marketing email message choices I turned off the time before). Previously I've tried to set up yahoo groups for another group and I was really turned off then, as well. I really like the idea of a dance organizer group, though. Marge Cramton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:02:59 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040504170236.2059.qmail-AT-web12210.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And now for an opposing viewpoint: Hundreds of thousands of people use Yahoogroups daily without problems. It's easy, reliable and powerful. It's a great portal with plenty of space for sharing links, files & photos, searching through posts, scheduling events & meetings, sending out reminders, creating and storing small databases and even taking polls. For example, we had a dance in Dover, DE, Saturday. That evening, I uploaded all the photos I took to our group's Yahoogroup site and sent out an announcement to everyone. All in less than an hour. Try doing *that* with a non-commercial or privately run website or portal. I've never encountered any 'web bugs' and cookies are just fine for helping speed up certain tasks lke logging in or remembering preferences. You can always turn them off if they frighten you. And you can even limit the sharing of your e-mail address as well. In fact, with Yahoo's spam filtering, I actually get *less* spam than I used to. I don't work for Yahoo, I don't own any Yahoo stock and much of what I'm saying applies equally to a number of commercial portals. Do you think that servers and networks are cheap? Just where does QuickTopic get its funding? We have different expectations of volunteer musicians and callers than for paid ones. If we don't support them financially, they'll become unreliable and have to find something else to do. The same should hold for websites. Tom Vincent --- Jonathan Sivier wrote: > MEIER-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > > >Is there any way in the world this list could be > set up on something besides > >Yahoo, home of web bugs, unrequested commercial > sharing of email addresses, and > >cookie depositor for third party businesses of the > world? > > > > > > I would like to second this sentiment. I'm > subscribed to a few Yahoo > email lists and get the messages fine, but I have > always had trouble > posting to them. It's probably just me, but after > creating multiple > Yahoo accounts and joining the various lists as > instructed I am still > unable to post messages to them. For the most part > I have given up > trying to deal with Yahoo. For me there just seem > to be too many hoops > to jump through. After a while it just isn't worth > the effort. > > Jonathan > ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:14:21 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:10:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L9OY8QT7MS9ERK4E-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Tom Vincent wrote: > For example, we had a dance in Dover, DE, Saturday. > That evening, I uploaded all the photos I took to our > group's Yahoogroup site and sent out an announcement > to everyone. All in less than an hour. Try doing > *that* with a non-commercial or privately run website > or portal. Huh? I mean, trivially, you can't upload photos to a Yahoogroup site without it being a Yahoogroup site, but I completely don't understand the claim that you can't upload stuff to a website and send an announcement to a mailing list on a non-commercial or privately-run web site in less than an hour. Surely the limiting factor - given an adequately well-connected server - is the bandwidth to the system you're uploading _from_, which will be the same no matter what server you're uploading to. - Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 10:28:30 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <00e301c431fd$0d925fc0$dd904a0c-AT-compaq14453453> From: "Paul Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: References: <20040504170236.2059.qmail-AT-web12210.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:27:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Vincent" <> How does one do that if one is a member of a Yahoo Group listserv rather than a Yahoo subscriber? Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 11:05:54 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040504180532.3748.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:05:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You can edit your profile. You can also set up a free yahoo account and turn off the marketing preferences, or use that account strictly for group posts, which makes filtering e-mails into folders much easier (this ECD list is a bit more irritating to filter because there are several e-ddresses, no subject line list indicator and every once in a while some joker cc's the list rather than sends to it directly). Anything that doesn't filter into one or more defined buckets can be automatically deleted (or at least stored elsewhere for later examination). You can even turn off the distribution of group posts and just browse the group posts online. Very handy for e-groups that have a high noise ratio. I've used this yahoo account for years even though I've changed ISPs several times (like what you're probably doing with pobox.com). After the first time sending out e-mails to everyone to let them know about my pending e-ddress change (which is an irritating imposition on everyone else), I decided never to do that again. I lost contact with some people who didn't read the message or somehow lost it (or probably just decided they didn't want to stay in contact :) ). Once my then-ISP went out of business, which was troublesome as well. --- Paul Stamler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Vincent" > > < address as well.>> > > How does one do that if one is a member of a Yahoo > Group listserv rather > than a Yahoo subscriber? > > Peace, > Paul > ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 11:34:41 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:35:01 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Jack Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general >Huh? I mean, trivially, you can't upload photos to a Yahoogroup site >without it being a Yahoogroup site, but I completely don't understand >the claim that you can't upload stuff to a website and send an announcement >to a mailing list on a non-commercial or privately-run web site in less >than an hour. Surely the limiting factor - given an adequately >well-connected server - is the bandwidth to the system you're uploading _from_, >which will be the same no matter what server you're uploading to. We can upload material to greenmanreview.com in seconds. And we're non-commercial! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 11:58:35 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040504185813.71010.qmail-AT-web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:58:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Actually, the limiting factor is whether the website/portal has the architecture/infrastructure software to easily support the addition, storage, organization and display of photos. If I had to send in a request for the owner to create a new page to store the photos from an event and then wait for that to be done before sending out an announcement to everyone that the pictures were on a website...well, that would just be too slow and inconvenient for everyone. Same for adding links. Self-service portal is the way to go. Personally, I enjoy seeing pictures of other people's events and activities, particularly the annual period costume balls or Halloween dances. It's fun to see the creativity of others and get inspired. --- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Tom Vincent wrote: > > > > For example, we had a dance in Dover, DE, > Saturday. > > That evening, I uploaded all the photos I took to > our > > group's Yahoogroup site and sent out an > announcement > > to everyone. All in less than an hour. Try doing > > *that* with a non-commercial or privately run > website > > or portal. > > Huh? I mean, trivially, you can't upload photos to > a Yahoogroup site > without it being a Yahoogroup site, but I completely > don't understand > the claim that you can't upload stuff to a website > and send an announcement > to a mailing list on a non-commercial or > privately-run web site in less > than an hour. Surely the limiting factor - given an > adequately > well-connected server - is the bandwidth to the > system you're uploading _from_, > which will be the same no matter what server you're > uploading to. > > - Alan ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 12:31:20 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040504193100.92672.qmail-AT-web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:31:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Okay, another innovation I've recently developed (besides using a 40gb pocket MP3 player to dramatically increase the quantity and variety of dance tunes available to me at any time) is one I'm even more proud of: The Portable Dance Instruction Library. Now, I have well over 850 dance instructions available to me at all times without carrying around a wagon full of dance manuals. This is what I put together: - A Palm Tungsten E PDA ($200) - A 128 MB Secure Digital Card ($50) - A Secure Digital Card reader ($20) - TealDoc (www.tealpoint.com) ($20) - A scanner ($100) [optional] - OmniPage OCR software ($150) [optional] Total cost: about $550, max I scan in the instructions, use OmniPage to read the text, save it as a text file on the SD card and then use TealDoc to bring it up on the Palm PDA, which has excellent contrast and a bright, readable screen. Now, the scanner and OCR are optional, because you can simply get the instructions for many dances off of various websites, but there are hundreds of dances you might not find anywhere. Or you could type them in, but your fingers would fall off after a while. :) So now, with a 40GB MP3 player in one pocket and nearly 1,000 dances in another pocket, I'm pretty much a portable ECD studio! :) Now if only I could find a pocket-sized speaker system... ;> Tom ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 14:07:00 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) From: MEIER-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: MEIER-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01L9P6D4D5T89FCICZ-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii >Tom Vincent wrote: >And now for an opposing viewpoint: For a snippy post, a snippy answer. >Hundreds of thousands of people use Yahoogroups daily >without problems. It's easy, reliable and powerful. Without any problems that they _think_ about. >It's a great portal with plenty of space for sharing >links, files & photos, searching through posts, >scheduling events & meetings, sending out reminders, >creating and storing small databases and even taking >polls. >For example, we had a dance in Dover, DE, Saturday. >That evening, I uploaded all the photos I took to our >group's Yahoogroup site and sent out an announcement >to everyone. All in less than an hour. Try doing >*that* with a non-commercial or privately run website >or portal. Actually, that's quite easy. This-here HP digital camera permits me to upload my new photos wherever I wish -- just plop it down, push the button, and let the software wave its magic wand, and it's not a top of the line camera either. (In real life I never do it that quickly because I almost always massage the pictures with Photoshop first, but the software assumes instant upload is my goal from the moment I start downloading.) Then I send out an announcement to everyone on a listserver just like this one, saying "Here are the photos, compadres." Less than half an hour, maybe less than 15 minutes from start to finish. Did I miss anything? >I've never encountered any 'web bugs' and cookies are >just fine for helping speed up certain tasks lke >logging in or remembering preferences. You can always >turn them off if they frighten you. >And you can even limit the sharing of your e-mail >address as well. I recommend reading Yahoo's actual privacy policy, as I did before posting to the ECD list. Web bugs are _standard_ on Yahoo pages, so you've encountered them whether you know it or not. (Yahoo has attempted to wield the power of renaming, and calls them "web beacons," but that's not the general-use name.) While I also decry many uses of cookies in general, in this case, as I said, I was talking about the *third-party cookies* that Yahoo permits to be set. Here's what Yahoo says about those: "Yahoo! lets other companies that show advertisements on some of our pages set and access their cookies on your computer. Other companies' use of their cookies is subject to their own privacy policies, not this one." Yahoo requires cookies to use almost any service, so you can't turn them off "if they frighten you" -- again, I suggest reading their page for their policies. >In fact, with Yahoo's spam filtering, I actually get >*less* spam than I used to. I don't know what ISP's services you used before, but Yahoo and Hotmail are among the most spammed services around, so your previous service must have been quite troublesome. >I don't work for Yahoo, I don't own any Yahoo stock >and much of what I'm saying applies equally to a >number of commercial portals. Do you think that >servers and networks are cheap? Just where does >QuickTopic get its funding? I don't work for QuickTopic or own any stock either, but I went to their page and read their information -- checking for myself is one of my favorite hobbies, which I recommend to everyone; did you look at the QuickTopic site before you asked that question? QuickTopic puts text-only ads on pages of topics with 20 or more posts. >We have different expectations of volunteer musicians >and callers than for paid ones. If we don't support >them financially, they'll become unreliable and have >to find something else to do. The same should hold >for websites. >Tom Vincent Well, this paragraph makes several assumptions. But I'll stick to the part about websites: I never said I thought all these services should be entirely free. But there are several ways for paying for the services far preferable to what Yahoo requires. - Vanessa ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 14:43:34 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040504142045.0107c9f8-AT-popserver.panix.com> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 14:43:07 -0700 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Calling/Playing for Pay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:50 PM 5/4/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >We have different expectations of volunteer musicians > >and callers than for paid ones. If we don't support > >them financially, they'll become unreliable and have > >to find something else to do. > > >Tom Vincent Dear Tom, Arguments based on analogies don't always hold up. For the past several years I've accepted no pay for calling. Instead, I've suggested that, depending on their finances, the groups for which I call make a donation to one of the organizations that had a hand in my training--CDSS, CDNY, CDW, North Jersey English Country Dancers--or to my current home group, BACDS. I seem to be calling at least as much nowadays as in previous years, and, as to my reliability, well, you can ask the dancers and organizers with whom I work. There's still room in the world for labors of love. Cheers, Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 15:32:01 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: References: <01L9O2059IDM9ERK4E-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:32:06 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: "Linda M. Nelson" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >[Forwarded for Ridge Kennedy] > >The J. Appleseed Society is organizing a listserve to serve the needs and >interests of dance organizers. I like the idea, and am sure it would be useful. So often we end up re-inventing the wheel; better to share information than stumble over the same old problems time and again. Yahoogroups are indeed annoying to log into, but i'm already part of one and it works fairly well. (Yes, i get oodles of spam per day now, but can't trace it to yahoo, so who knows. I've used the same email address for everything over the past 7 years.) Of course, it would make sense to discuss the same issues (organizing and promoting new groups) here on this list as well. Just my 2 cents - Linda -- __________________________________________________ "Oh, yes. It's vital to remember who you really are. It's very important. It isn't a good idea to rely on other people or things to do it for you, you see. They always get it wrong." (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery") __________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:13:04 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:12:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: (fwd from Ridge) To: ecd-AT-ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L9PARHE87O9EHSVO-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii [Ridge Kennedy writes] Dear All, Regarding yahoogroups and related concerns, I understand why using them as a listserve provider might be an issue for some folks. My long-term goal is to have this operated from its own web site with its own list engine. If you look at the proposal document at j-appleseed.org you'll see the vision. But that's not going to happen very soon, if ever, so time to get on with what is do-able. There is another list I work with for American dance callers that was not manageable, because it was on an elderly majordomo and very limited. We recently discussed possible options for migration on the list and yahoogroups was the clear winner. From a list management perspective, it has lots of advantages. For the time being, I think it's best to stick with it. If you create a yahoogroups ID, which you have to do to sign up on the web site, you do risk missing a checkbox and possibly getting unwanted messages. I don't like that. I cannot, however, find any instances of my receiving spam as a result of any of my yahoogroups subscriptions. But I share the concerns expressed about the possibility. My understanding is that people can subscribe fairly easily by sending a blank message to the subscribe address, and it seems to be working for some folks. If anyone wants to subscribe but is having trouble, just send me a message and I'll do it manually. Sent it to: mailto:ridge.kennedy-AT-j-appleseed.org I realize it's not a perfect solution, but it was the best choice for me at this time, and I hope the choice won't deter too many people from participating. Sincerely, Ridge -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:13:10 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <003801c4322d$52435cc0$6ec35244-AT-Hercules> From: "Tom Vincent" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040504142045.0107c9f8-AT-popserver.panix.com> Subject: Re: Calling/Playing for Pay Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:03:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I absolutely agree. I rarely get paid for calling and that's just fine with me. But I think that a group that pays a few hundred dollars for a caller or a band is going to expect more than they do from their 'house band' or local callers. That's just human nature. And I don't mind paying for a Colin Hume or Scott Higgs or Bruce Hamilton or Allison Thompson or Brad Foster or Gene Murrow or Steve Howe or Sarah Mead or Dorothy Olsson or Ellen Tepper or Bare Necessities or Hillbillies from Mars or Wild Asparagus or Baltimore Consort or Piffaro because I know I'm getting quality, creative and experienced talent. But in no way does that mean I don't also appreciate and respect volunteer musicians or callers. We all depend upon them. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Green" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:43 PM Subject: Calling/Playing for Pay > At 01:50 PM 5/4/2004 -0700, you wrote: > > >We have different expectations of volunteer musicians > > >and callers than for paid ones. If we don't support > > >them financially, they'll become unreliable and have > > >to find something else to do. > > > > >Tom Vincent > > Dear Tom, > Arguments based on analogies don't always hold up. > For the past several years I've accepted no pay for calling. Instead, I've > suggested that, depending on their finances, the groups for which I call > make a donation to one of the organizations that had a hand in my > training--CDSS, CDNY, CDW, North Jersey English Country Dancers--or to my > current home group, BACDS. I seem to be calling at least as much nowadays > as in previous years, and, as to my reliability, well, you can ask the > dancers and organizers with whom I work. > There's still room in the world for labors of love. > Cheers, > Sharon Green > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 17:43:32 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009601c43239$f3039740$6ec35244-AT-Hercules> From: "Tom Vincent" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: References: <01L9P6D4D5T89FCICZ-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 20:22:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem is that now you've got to keep a list of e-ddresses current on hpphoto.com (or whatever other photo portal you're using). That's a real hassle that's removed when the announcement goes out to everyone currently a member of a group. Posting the photos to a general-purpose portal allows *other* people to post photos in the same place. Whether that's important for you, I can't say, but I see it as a benefit: The photos are all in one place, making browsing easy. I run Spy Sweeper to limit cookies and spyware. Part of the endless spiral of companies trying to get our information without our permission. There may be some benefit to cookies and getting targeted ads, but I prefer it to be done above board and not surreptitiously. If people think QuickTopic is a viable listserver option, I say let's try it out and see. I'm certainly open to new ideas. I've seen a few people criticize Yahoo without offering any alternatives and with, I think, unfair criticism of Yahoo. I didn't see much in QuickTopic beyond simple e-mail. Maybe that's enough for some, but I prefer the wealth of accessories within Yahoogroup. As with everything else, your mileage may vary. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general > Actually, that's quite easy. This-here HP digital camera permits me to upload > my new photos wherever I wish -- just plop it down, push the button, and let > the software wave its magic wand, and it's not a top of the line camera either. > (In real life I never do it that quickly because I almost always massage the > pictures with Photoshop first, but the software assumes instant upload is my > goal from the moment I start downloading.) Then I send out an announcement to > everyone on a listserver just like this one, saying "Here are the photos, > compadres." Less than half an hour, maybe less than 15 minutes from start to > finish. Did I miss anything? > > >I've never encountered any 'web bugs' and cookies are > >just fine for helping speed up certain tasks lke > >logging in or remembering preferences. You can always > >turn them off if they frighten you. > > >And you can even limit the sharing of your e-mail > >address as well. > > I recommend reading Yahoo's actual privacy policy, as I did before posting to > the ECD list. > > Web bugs are _standard_ on Yahoo pages, so you've encountered them whether you > know it or not. (Yahoo has attempted to wield the power of renaming, and calls > them "web beacons," but that's not the general-use name.) While I also decry > many uses of cookies in general, in this case, as I said, I was talking about > the *third-party cookies* that Yahoo permits to be set. Here's what Yahoo says > about those: "Yahoo! lets other companies that show advertisements on some of > our pages set and access their cookies on your computer. Other companies' use > of their cookies is subject to their own privacy policies, not this one." > > Yahoo requires cookies to use almost any service, so you can't turn them off > "if they frighten you" -- again, I suggest reading their page for their > policies. > > > >In fact, with Yahoo's spam filtering, I actually get > >*less* spam than I used to. > > I don't know what ISP's services you used before, but Yahoo and Hotmail are > among the most spammed services around, so your previous service must have been > quite troublesome. > > > >I don't work for Yahoo, I don't own any Yahoo stock > >and much of what I'm saying applies equally to a > >number of commercial portals. Do you think that > >servers and networks are cheap? Just where does > >QuickTopic get its funding? > > I don't work for QuickTopic or own any stock either, but I went to their page > and read their information -- checking for myself is one of my favorite > hobbies, which I recommend to everyone; did you look at the QuickTopic site > before you asked that question? QuickTopic puts text-only ads on pages of > topics with 20 or more posts. > > > >We have different expectations of volunteer musicians > >and callers than for paid ones. If we don't support > >them financially, they'll become unreliable and have > >to find something else to do. The same should hold > >for websites. > > >Tom Vincent > > Well, this paragraph makes several assumptions. But I'll stick to the part > about websites: I never said I thought all these services should be entirely > free. But there are several ways for paying for the services far preferable to > what Yahoo requires. > > - Vanessa ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:11:22 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <40984004.3010502-AT-just.net> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 21:14:44 -0400 From: "Roger W. Broseus" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library References: <20040504193100.92672.qmail-AT-web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Vincent wrote: >Okay, another innovation I've recently developed >(besides using a 40gb pocket MP3 player to >dramatically increase the quantity and variety of >dance tunes available to me at any time) is one I'm >even more proud of: The Portable Dance Instruction >Library. > > [snip] Well, Tom: the obvious question springs to mind: are you willing to share this treasure trove? How big is it, Mb-wise? /roger . . . the master of packing rats . . . er . . . rat packing . . . er . . . pack ratting . . .. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:36:26 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505123605.56763.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 05:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm not sure what you mean, Roger. Share it? I couldn't possibly do that, but you can buy one. I chose the Nomad Zen Xtra Jukebox by Creative because of the size, capacity and screen size (twice what my older 20gb Archos has). Forty gigs easily holds all my ECD tunes. I just checked and it has 2,047 songs in a bit over 7gb. Plenty of room for other music. --- "Roger W. Broseus" wrote: > Tom Vincent wrote: > > >Okay, another innovation I've recently developed > >(besides using a 40gb pocket MP3 player to > >dramatically increase the quantity and variety of > >dance tunes available to me at any time) is one I'm > >even more proud of: The Portable Dance Instruction > >Library. > > > > > [snip] > > Well, Tom: the obvious question springs to mind: are > you willing to > share this treasure trove? How big is it, Mb-wise? > > /roger . . . the master of packing rats . . . er . . > . rat packing . . . > er . . . pack ratting . . .. ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:38:50 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Margherita Davis" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 14:38:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: >I'm not sure what you mean, Roger. Share it? I >couldn't possibly do that, but you can buy one. Is this the time to inject a comment that if there is copywrited material in that collection, any transfer might be problematic? Margherita _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:16:19 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: References: Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:13:14 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:38 PM +0000 5/5/04, Margherita Davis wrote: >>I'm not sure what you mean, Roger. Share it? I >>couldn't possibly do that, but you can buy one. Presumably Tom meant Roger could buy the PDA and other equipment on which Tom keeps all this data. Purchasing the files from Tom might run afoul of copyright infringment. >Is this the time to inject a comment that if there is copywrited >material in that collection, any transfer might be problematic? > >Margherita I wonder whether Tom's usage classifies as fair use. It might be good to find out. Incidentally, the "right" in copyright has no connection to writing. It's got to do with intellectual property rights. So both the past tense and adjectival forms are "copyrighted". Although the comprehensiveness of Tom's project has some attractions, I would caution against just speeding through a project like this. Instructions are often no longer a representation of common practice, and personally I find Sharp's descriptions of heys very difficult to parse when actually leading a dance. -- Emily L. Ferguson mailto:elf-AT-cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:30:12 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505152954.20024.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:29:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Not problematic: Ethically impossible. --- Margherita Davis wrote: > > >I'm not sure what you mean, Roger. Share it? I > >couldn't possibly do that, but you can buy one. > > Is this the time to inject a comment that if there > is copywrited material > in that collection, any transfer might be > problematic? > > Margherita > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself with the new version of MSN > Messenger! Download today - > it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:46:44 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505154622.52692.qmail-AT-web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:46:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I thought Roger was asking about the MP3 player. If he was talking about the PDA library, I think most if not all of the instructions I have are public domain. I think that if I bought a copyrighted book and then OCRd the instructions for use on my PDA, that would classify as 'fair use', just like copying a CD for archival purposes (as opposed to selling it or giving it away). Maybe a few people that have actually published a book of dance instructions could respond (if any are on this list). But the vast majority of DIs I've collected have been off of web-sites and are at least 150 years old (though the redaction might not be). I understand that a published collection of redacted DIs can be copyrighted (as a variant interpretation), but the DIs on a web-site that don't seem to be copyrighted (or maybe don't qualify)? I just don't know. I certainly don't want to step on anyone's toes (or legal rights, for that matter). By the way, Emily, I have a number of different DIs for the same dance, so there's plenty of flexibility, if that's what your last sentence refers to. --- "Emily L. Ferguson" wrote: > At 2:38 PM +0000 5/5/04, Margherita Davis wrote: > >>I'm not sure what you mean, Roger. Share it? I > >>couldn't possibly do that, but you can buy one. > > Presumably Tom meant Roger could buy the PDA and > other equipment on > which Tom keeps all this data. Purchasing the files > from Tom might > run afoul of copyright infringment. > > >Is this the time to inject a comment that if there > is copywrited > >material in that collection, any transfer might be > problematic? > > > >Margherita > > I wonder whether Tom's usage classifies as fair use. > It might be > good to find out. > > Incidentally, the "right" in copyright has no > connection to writing. > It's got to do with intellectual property rights. > So both the past > tense and adjectival forms are "copyrighted". > > > > Although the comprehensiveness of Tom's project has > some attractions, > I would caution against just speeding through a > project like this. > > Instructions are often no longer a representation of > common practice, > and personally I find Sharp's descriptions of heys > very difficult to > parse when actually leading a dance. > -- > Emily L. Ferguson > mailto:elf-AT-cape.com > 508-563-6822 > New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, > press photography > http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf/ > ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:10:36 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: References: <20040505154622.52692.qmail-AT-web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:07:34 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" As a creator of intellectual property I can say with a lot of assurance that a very large amount of material on web sites is not marked with any copyright information, but still remains under copyright. Much of the unmarked material is infringing, both by being on the site and by being unmarked with the copyright holder's information. Creatives spend a couple hours a week looking for infringers as well. Beware. -- Emily L. Ferguson mailto:elf-AT-cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:28:24 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:26:31 GMT To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Content-Type: text/plain From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505.092714.28651.95912-AT-webmail19.nyc.untd.com> Collecting dance descriptions from websites can also be problematic--many RenFair type sites post alternate versions of dances; also some sites are just plain wrong. Allison THompson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 10:22:03 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:21:41 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 May 2004, Margherita Davis wrote > Is this the time to inject a comment that if there is copywrited material > in that collection, any transfer might be problematic? Sure. Just please don't start the copywrite vs. fair use arguement up again folks. I've seen this list go ballistic over this subject too often... --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 10:34:11 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:33:52 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 May 2004, Tom Vincent wrote: > Now if only I could find a pocket-sized speaker > system... ;> For the most bang for the buck, try try the Altec-Lansing 220 powered speakers. Not quite pocket-sized, but smaller and a lot lighter than carrying around a boombox, and only $30 for twice the power of anything else in the under $100 price range. If you have $100+ Bose makes a set of two small powered speakers. Ipod users should check out the Altec-Lansing In Motion speakers: two speakers and an ipod dock in a fold-up stand. At 8"x5.4"x1.2", that would fit in some people's pockets. --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 10:40:02 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:39:42 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Since the message regarding the J. Appleseed Society's mission was forwarded to this list by the moderator, I don't think Ridge Kennedy is a subscriber to this list. Therefore, suggestions as to where and how he should set up his listserve would be more helpfully sent directly to him, rather than being debated here. --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:29:37 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Listserver for dance organizers in general To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L9QF5E2EVC9F9MIG-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Mary Railing wrote: > Since the message regarding the J. Appleseed Society's mission was > forwarded to this list by the moderator, I don't think Ridge Kennedy is a > subscriber to this list. Therefore, suggestions as to where and how he > should set up his listserve would be more helpfully sent directly to him, > rather than being debated here. An entirely plausible conclusion to draw from the fact of the message being forwarded, but not a correct one. Ridge gets ECD list postings. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:32:49 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505183230.60386.qmail-AT-web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii So is it the responsibility of the visitor to determine the copyright status of something found on a website? Again, I understand clearly marked new DIs and new redactions (though just how much of a new interpretation of an 18th century dance is really copyrightable is unknown to me), especially if the visitor tries to republish, but that's not what's happening here. None of us are trying to sell the DIs, just distribute ones we've discovered in a portable format. --- "Emily L. Ferguson" wrote: > As a creator of intellectual property I can say with > a lot of > assurance that a very large amount of material on > web sites is not > marked with any copyright information, but still > remains under > copyright. Much of the unmarked material is > infringing, both by > being on the site and by being unmarked with the > copyright holder's > information. > > Creatives spend a couple hours a week looking for > infringers as well. > > Beware. > -- > Emily L. Ferguson > mailto:elf-AT-cape.com > 508-563-6822 > New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, > press photography > http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf/ > ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:36:26 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505183606.61828.qmail-AT-web12209.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii But so do some books. Determining which DIs are 'right' and which are 'wrong' can sometimes be quite challenging. I've seen some that have just a slight resemblance to the original, but some change the dance from a triple to a duple or a 4-couple square to a circle, etc. Who's to say which is 'right', 'wrong', a variant or something completely different with the same name (gee, like *that's* not historically accurate)? --- allisonthompson-AT-juno.com wrote: > > Collecting dance descriptions from websites can also > be problematic--many RenFair type sites post > alternate versions of dances; also some sites are > just plain wrong. > > Allison THompson ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:39:15 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:33:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L9QFHDEEBA9F9MIG-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Tom wrote: > So is it the responsibility of the visitor to > determine the copyright status of something found on a > website? > Again, I understand clearly marked new DIs and new > redactions (though just how much of a new > interpretation of an 18th century dance is really > copyrightable is unknown to me), especially if the > visitor tries to republish, but that's not what's > happening here. None of us are trying to sell the > DIs, just distribute ones we've discovered in a > portable format. I think this underscores that every poster so far is in violent agreement (and yet it seems like we're starting to squabble anyway). If I understand what you've been saying so far, you're not even trying to "distribute ones you've discovered in a portable format" - you're trying to carry around and make use of ones you've discovered, which is different than distribution (or at least than redistribution). I don't think there's any question whatsoever that what you're doing with dance instructions is fair use. What you're doing with MP3s (from music you've bought fair and square) is no different than using tapes of albums you own rather than the albums themselves, which hasn't raised any hackles here previously. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:55:58 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 14:56:21 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Jack Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library >So is it the responsibility of the visitor to >determine the copyright status of something found on a >website? Any decent website should have a copyright notice on it. We use this as ours: All contents of this site are Copyright 1995-2004 The Green Man Review. Permission is granted to a review's author to reprint the review on the author's own Web site (but not in a periodical or along with collected reviews by other writers). When the author so reprints his or her own review on his or her own Web site, it is sufficient to include our copyright/link (as below). All other reprints may only be used at the sole discretion and with express permission of The Green Man Review. The author may not grant reprint rights to others. To request other reprint use, contact Cat Eldridge. All reprints must be accompanied by the following, including the link back to GMR: Reprinted with permission from The Green Man Review. Copyright (year of review) The Green Man Review. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:07:05 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:05:54 GMT To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library Content-Type: text/plain From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505.120625.12812.98007-AT-webmail04.nyc.untd.com> Tom wrote: Who's to say which is 'right', 'wrong', a variant or something completely different with the same name (gee, like *that's* not historically accurate)? The answer? Me. Ok, well if not me, then I nominate Sharon Green, who seems to know everything. The thing is, it's not enough to just be able to *call* a dance. To be a good dance leader I think you need to know quite a bit about the background of the dance and its reconstruction history. We can teach alternates, but we have to be sure we identify them as such. Do we want 10 versions of Newcastle floating around Out There? Probably not. My point about the website arose from a situation a few months ago when I was helping a puzzled novice caller figure out Take A Dance. Her notes from a website (I don't know whose) was missing 8 bars--hence her puzzlement in fitting the dance to the tune clearly marked as a 32 bar tune. Prescriptively yrs Allison Thompson P.S. Having thus laid down the law (ok, my law) in no uncertain terms, I want to add that a few weeks ago I taught a bunch of 60 homeschooled adolescents some simple colonial/regency dances for their "prom" (at which they will dress up). I had no qualms about substituting, say, a full poussette for 4 changes of a hey--these kids in this situation just wanted to have fun in the easiest way possible and there is some historical precedent for that change. But if I were dealing with "real" ECDers I would either not do this or would at least clearly describe what I was doing & why. (Best of both worlds!) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:45:15 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040505124304.011e6ad0-AT-popserver.panix.com> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:44:05 -0700 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:05 PM 5/5/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Tom wrote: Who's to say which is 'right', 'wrong', a variant or >something completely different with the same name >(gee, like *that's* not historically accurate)? > >The answer? Me. Ok, well if not me, then I nominate Sharon Green, who >seems to know everything. And I nominate Kitty Keller, who _does_ know everything! Cheers, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:29:16 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505202854.88323.qmail-AT-web12201.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yet in another section of your website, the notice is: "Green Man Review has exclusive rights, unless otherwise specified, for all materials in this magazine: all other rights are reserved by the author. Permission must be secured in writing from the author before materials may be reprinted in any form." These two notices contradict each other somewhat. --- Jack wrote: > >So is it the responsibility of the visitor to > >determine the copyright status of something found > on a > >website? > > Any decent website should have a copyright notice on > it. > > We use this as ours: > > All contents of this site are Copyright 1995-2004 > The Green Man Review. Permission is granted to a > review's author to reprint the review on the > author's own Web site (but not in a periodical or > along with collected reviews by other writers). When > the author so reprints his or her own review on his > or her own Web site, it is sufficient to include our > copyright/link (as below). All other reprints may > only be used at the sole discretion and with express > permission of The Green Man Review. The author may > not grant reprint rights to others. To request other > reprint use, contact Cat Eldridge. All reprints must > be accompanied by the following, including the link > back to GMR: > > Reprinted with permission from The Green Man Review. > Copyright (year of review) The Green Man Review. ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:49:49 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040505204912.71414.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:49:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Do I mind having 10 versions of Newcastle? No, not at all. I think we all grow by appreciating diversity and that includes interpreting dance steps. I've got 5 slightly different versions myself and have done three of them in the past couple of years. I use one 'Childgrove' and other callers use another. I think it's a perky number with more 2nd-couple moves, others see it as a durge with 1st couple doing just about everything. None of us, however, are doing it 'right', according to the original text. I set left-then-right, another does right-then-left and another does left-then-right and right-then-left (when in pairs separated by another step). I happen to 'know' that my way is historically accurate; Do I pout when callers do it differently? No. Some callers prefer Sharp siding to simple siding. No big deal. I learned some dances in AZ, a variant in CA, a variant in DE and a variant in PA! It's like getting Dance Alzheimers: I keep learning the same dance over and over again! :) These DIs weren't carved in stone and it's interesting to try different versions. Hell, I've got 3-5 versions of several dance tunes, each with a different feel, different tempo, different instruments, different timing, different number of reps. I don't think a leader has to know *anything* about the background of the dance and its reconstruction history! It's great and I personally enjoy it enormously, but it certainly doesn't replace good communication skills, which derive from a comfortable knowledge of the subject matter. --- allisonthompson-AT-JUNO.COM wrote: > > Tom wrote: Who's to say which is 'right', 'wrong', > a variant or > something completely different with the same name > (gee, like *that's* not historically accurate)? > > The answer? Me. Ok, well if not me, then I nominate > Sharon Green, who seems to know everything. The > thing is, it's not enough to just be able to *call* > a dance. To be a good dance leader I think you need > to know quite a bit about the background of the > dance and its reconstruction history. We can teach > alternates, but we have to be sure we identify them > as such. Do we want 10 versions of Newcastle > floating around Out There? Probably not. > > My point about the website arose from a situation a > few months ago when I was helping a puzzled novice > caller figure out Take A Dance. Her notes from a > website (I don't know whose) was missing 8 > bars--hence her puzzlement in fitting the dance to > the tune clearly marked as a 32 bar tune. > > Prescriptively yrs > > Allison Thompson > > P.S. Having thus laid down the law (ok, my law) in > no uncertain terms, I want to add that a few weeks > ago I taught a bunch of 60 homeschooled adolescents > some simple colonial/regency dances for their "prom" > (at which they will dress up). I had no qualms about > substituting, say, a full poussette for 4 changes of > a hey--these kids in this situation just wanted to > have fun in the easiest way possible and there is > some historical precedent for that change. But if I > were dealing with "real" ECDers I would either not > do this or would at least clearly describe what I > was doing & why. (Best of both worlds!) ===== Tom Vincent "There also was a yank from Connecticut Who utterly lacked any etiquette. He claimed Texas blood, Threw the truth in the mud, Think his word is his bond? Don't bet on it." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 14:04:18 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 17:04:37 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Jack Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library >Yet in another section of your website, the notice is: > >"Green Man Review has exclusive rights, unless >otherwise specified, for all materials in this >magazine: all other rights are reserved by >the author. Permission must be secured in writing from >the author before materials may be reprinted in any >form." > >These two notices contradict each other somewhat. Yeah, I know. We need to update the copyright section to reflect the use of material like this: greenmanreview.com/summerqueen_speech_2003.html as the the langauge in place now predates those pieces. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:25:16 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Michael Barraclough" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: Anyone know anythin g about the dance Pool's Hole? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:58:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c432f4$84a177c0$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know anything about the history of Pool's Hole. I do know, = however, that the transcription in the Country Dance Book (Vol,4 Sharp & = Butterworth) is not correct. For some reason the transcriber has ignored the fact = that the last 4 bars in the B music have to be repeated. I suggest: A1 1-4 Ones cast down and A2 1-4 half figure up B 1-2 First corners (places) change 3-4 Second corners (places change 5-8 circle left 9-12 3 changes of right & left (ones start alone) Regards - Michael Barraclough http://www.michaelbarraclough.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart, Hugh Sent: 04 May 2004 12:40 To: 'ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu' Subject: Anyone know anythin g about the dance Pool's Hole? Anyone have any answers to this query? >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Michael Clement" > To: > Subject: Pool's Hole > Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 23:53:15 +0100 >=20 > Hello, >=20 > I am trying to find out historical information regarding the > dance 'Pool's Hole' and was hoping you could help. >=20 > I work at Poole's Cavern (formerly Pool's Hole) and was > wondering if the dance was connected to the cave. >=20 > Any info. available? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Michael Clement > Marketing Manager > Poole's Cavern >=20 www.poolescavern.co.uk --- All messages scanned by AVG 7.0 Anti-Virus scanner and UBEBlock Anti-Spam filter. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 01:56:34 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Paul Davis" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: Portable Dance Instruction Library Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:56:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Certainly under UK law, all information published is copyright without the need for an express copyright notice. If you want to use that information in some form, then you need to contact the copyright holder for permission - which is where the copyright notice helps. Changing media is not sufficient for you to claim copyright - in fact digitising something previously permitted on paper requires additional permissions to be obtained. In theory printing a web page is infringement of copyright, and is expressly forbidden on some mapping sites to enforce this in law. Paul Paul Davis Who unfortunately has to get teaching material onto the web and steer clear of lawyers! Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library So is it the responsibility of the visitor to determine the copyright status of something found on a website? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:44:31 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <409A4F21.8040200-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:43:45 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Portable Dance Instruction Library References: <20040505204912.71414.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Vincent wrote: > I don't think a leader has to know *anything* about > the background of the dance and its reconstruction > history! It's great and I personally enjoy it > enormously, but it certainly doesn't replace good > communication skills, which derive from a comfortable > knowledge of the subject matter. Iconoclastic though this point of view may be, I'd like to weigh in in support of it. In my view (which, admittedly, is usually from the vantage point of the band, since I don't dance very much, but I do go to a hell of a lot of dances), someone who has a decent-sized repertoire of dances, has the ability to teach them promptly to dancers with varying skill levels, picks programs that are varied with respect to music, dance style, and aerobicness level and are appropriate to the size and skill level of the crowd, and works well with the band is a good caller, regardless of whether he or she knows everything there is to know about the history of the reconstructions or thinks the dances were all composed yesterday by a computer program. Indeed, I'd go further: there can be a tendency among those who've taken great pains to study the history of the dances to share each and every fascinating detail, and that's something that I think is emphatically *not* the characteristic of a good caller. I've worked with callers (who shall remain nameless and genderless) who have the habit of going on and on and on and on and on about where the dance comes from, and where that version came from, and which edition of which book it's published in, and who taught it at Pinewoods at which camp in which year, and who's modified it since then, to the point where dancers are visibly starting to chew their own legs off in an attempt to escape to someplace where there's actual dancing going on. I've also worked with plenty of callers who are encyclopedically knowledgeable about dance history, but who shut up about it -- our venerated list owner, for example, is a fine example of this breed -- so there's not *necessarily* any correlation between knowledge of the history and the verbal-diarrhea syndrome, but it's something that those with historical expertise should, at least in the opinion of this non-dancing musician, watch out for in their calling. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 09:10:48 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <4.2.2.20040506111137.00de7410-AT-shell.shore.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:12:14 -0500 To: ECD List From: Mark R Dobyns Jones Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The copyright issue in relation to social dance arises again. There is a post in the ECD archive: dated November 17, 2003 from me, with the subject: "Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA" which engendered some controversy and more than 25 posts of comment and criticism, all of which are still unanswered. I'll review that criticism and attempt to post a response...eventually. The brief is that, in the USA, a Supreme Court decision in the 1800's specifically denied the existence of copyright in dance choreography, because the copyright law failed to contemplate the subject area. In the 20th Century, prior 1978, an exceedingly few published balletic works, as an "integral part of a dramatic work," (dramatic works being an explicitly recognized subject area) were successfully copyrighted. The amendments to USA copyright law coming into effect on January 1, 1978, explicitly recognized copyright in choreography and overturned the old Supreme Court decision, but also the legislative history reported by the drafting committee also explicitly excluded copyright coverage of "social dance steps," as distinct from performance choreography. There is reason to believe that social dance steps are equal to social dance choreography as we know it, and hence in the USA, not a protected intellectual property in the USA. A useful web link about the topic of USA copyright and choreography (especially performance choreography as a distinct and separate category of authorship and work from social choreography): "Copyright of Choreographic Works" by Julie Van Camp, a chapter in the book: "1994-95 Entertainment, Publishing and the Arts Handbook" edited by Stephen F. Breimer, Robert Thorne, and John David Viera New York: Clark, Boardman, and Callaghan, 1994 (pp. 59-92) http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/copyrigh.html ~Mark Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 09:19:08 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040506161847.74510.qmail-AT-web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Showing What You Know, &c. To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As one of those callers who *either* displays in-depth knowledge *or* goes on and on, depending, probably, on the auditor's perspective, I say this: Some dancers bristle with resentment at *any* data beyond the merest indication of the track--not just background, but style, hints, *anything*. These dancers are often sure they're just super at all times, and that they need nothing--they're the *likeliest* to make weak hand-turns and crummy gate-turns and tread on their partners' feet. Candidly, I think such dancers are in the long run a poor match for English Country Dance. There are dance types without a "leader," or wherein the leader may as well be coin-operated--not ECD. These dances have a long and venerable history--an ancient (that is, Renaissance and Baroque) history, and a modern history. Even new dances--perhaps especially new dances--come from somewhere. If, however, I choose to mention something about a dance, I try not to let that mention interfere with the speed and clarity of my instruction. Why *not* mention that the dance was written for Madame X, if she is in the room? Likewise, I will often say: "The title of the dance seems to mean thus-and-so," especially if I can go on to say: "--and here is how we see it in the dance." Some information may actually *shape* our dancing. If I see fit to mention something that is just a Fun Fact, I'll make a jest of that too. As dancers, we want to move, so callers do have an obligation to be brief and relevant--but *some* information, well-delivered, can improve the dancing that follows. ===== Graham Christian "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 09:23:30 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: ECD Digest V1 #1549 on copyright Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:22:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: Now doing my bit to generate more heat than light... After spending most of the last few months doing a comprehensive review of my library's 100+ license agreements concerning access to and use of electronic (online) resources... Electronic journals and books, databases, and the like. I can fairly report that there is a lot of confusion out there and many people -- publishers and their lawyers as well as librarians and their readers -- have very little idea of what they are doing, at least judging by these licenses. But one point: someone referred to "distribution" as different from selling, I think, in this ECD context. Sorry, no. Giving it away free can violate as many rules as selling it. Keeping it to yourself, however, or using it only for your private purposes, is not very likely to get you into trouble. (There's a lesson there, somewhere, but I can't think what it is. Could anyone enlighten me?) I believe that in the U.S. as well that there does not need to be a copyright statement on a piece, for it to be considered under copyright. Actually, I think this discussion needs to be had and re-had in the ECD and similar contexts. My own concern is for the creators -- the people who make the music, write/ compose the dances, make (legal) recordings which are openly sold and distributed, and also those who write books about sword dance and other arcane topics -- too often it's assumed that the material they have created is just out there, free for the pickin' (and distributin'). It's not and it shouldn't be. (Back to the licenses... what on god's green earth are they trying to do, anyhow?) Steve Corrsin Steve Corrsin 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel 248-661-6283 fax 248-661-6288 Soon to be moving back to Greater NYC. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 10:00:19 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040506165955.31051.qmail-AT-web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Mark R Dobyns Jones wrote: > The amendments to USA copyright law coming into effect on January > 1, 1978, explicitly recognized copyright in choreography and overturned the old Supreme Court decision, but also the legislative history reported by the drafting committee also explicitly excluded copyright coverage of "social dance steps," as distinct from performance choreography. There is reason to believe that social dance steps are equal to social dance choreography as we know it, and hence in the USA, not a protected intellectual property in the USA. What about the written instructions however? Wouldn't that be copyrightable? Barbara Not a lawyer and asking not arguing (but please no one come back with the "you can't copyright the telephone book" example - that's been dealt with in these discussions and was a very specific and not applicable ruling.) ===== The choice is ours: http://www.moveonpac.org/warrecord/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 10:38:51 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: References: <20040506165955.31051.qmail-AT-web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:38:13 -0400 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu From: Michael Bergman Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA CC: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu, Barbara Ruth Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:59 AM -0700 06-5-04, Barbara Ruth wrote: >--- Mark R Dobyns Jones wrote: > > The amendments to USA copyright law coming into effect on January > > 1, 1978, explicitly recognized copyright in choreography and >overturned the old Supreme Court decision, but also the legislative >history reported by the drafting committee also explicitly excluded >copyright coverage of "social dance steps," as distinct from >performance choreography. There is reason to believe that social >dance steps are equal to social dance choreography as we know it, and >hence in the USA, not a protected intellectual property in the USA. > >What about the written instructions however? Wouldn't that be >copyrightable? In general, with no knowledge of specific exceptions or special cases such as Mark cites, and not being a lawyer, but having asked similar questions of several lawyers, I would expect a newly written description of a choreography to be copywritable, and a printed version of even a public domain description to be copywritable in a more limited sense -- in the former case, it would be illegal to xerox it, or to reprint it without permission (verbatim); in the latter case, it would be illegal to xerox it, but reprinting it would be OK. By "reprint", I mean newly typeset, i.e. if you type it into your computer and print it on your laser printer, that would be OK, but not if you scan it in and print out the image. For the case of the hypothetical choreography found on the web, I would take this to mean that one could print it out and use it as an aide memoire while teaching, but not read from it verbatim nor pass out copies to the class (ignoring, for the moment, one-shot rules for fair use and teaching). -- --Mike Bergman "Of course he has a website. We *all* have websites. It's the dawn of the 21st century, and we're all barbarians!" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:45:47 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <409A95AE.4090502-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:44:46 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA References: <4.2.2.20040506111137.00de7410-AT-shell.shore.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark R Dobyns Jones wrote: > > There > is reason to believe that social dance steps are equal to social dance > choreography as we know it, and hence in the USA, not a protected > intellectual property in the USA. That, right there, is the thing that I'm still waiting to hear a fuller explanation of. What, specifically, is the reason that anyone should believe that a "social dance step" is equal to "social dance choreography"? That's not the way anyone I've every heard of uses the word "step." A set and turn single is a step (or perhaps two steps); a waltz step is a step; a minuet step is a step. If you make up a new thing that's like a set and turn single or a waltz step or a minuet step, then it's not protected by copyright. "Newcastle," on the other hand, is a dance. It's not a step. I can't imagine that anyone would refer to "Newcastle" as a step. If you make up a new thing that's like "Newcastle," then that too is a dance, not a step, so it's protected by the portion of the copyright law that protects dances. As an analogy, I strongly suspect (though I don't know any case law on this) that there's no copyright protection in words. Here, I'll make up a word: glifmerkanism. The word "glifmerkanism" is my original work of authorship, but I believe that the Supreme Court would say, if anyone were to ask them, that there's no copyright protection for individual words. Now, novels are simply sets of words arranged in a particular order. Would my hypothetical Supreme Court decision about individual words mean that there's no copyright protection in novels? Of course not. Novels are different than words. They're composed of words, but the creative expression that's protected by the copyright laws doesn't protect the words, it protects the particular order that the words are arranged in. Similarly, dances are made up of steps, but they're not the SAME as steps. The next time I hear a caller say "Everybody form a longways set; the next step we're going to do is Hambleton's Round-O," I may change my views on this, but I haven't heard it yet and I don't anticipate hearing it real soon. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:58:25 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <409A98C9.1020000-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:58:01 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #1549 on copyright References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen D. Corrsin wrote: > But one point: someone referred to "distribution" as different from > selling, I think, in this ECD context. Sorry, no. Giving it away free > can violate as many rules as selling it. Keeping it to yourself, > however, or using it only for your private purposes, is not very likely > to get you into trouble. (There's a lesson there, somewhere, but I can't > think what it is. Could anyone enlighten me?) > > I believe that in the U.S. as well that there does not need to be a > copyright statement on a piece, for it to be considered under copyright. Correct and correct. "I'm not making any money on this so it can't be copyright infringement" is just dead wrong. And there's no need for a copyright notice (although there are some very good reasons to have one, which I won't go into right now); a work is protected by copyright laws the moment it's "fixed," which means recorded in some tangible form. This means that a dance, for example, might very well not be protected by copyright if the author just makes it in his head up and then proceeds to call it without notes, but as soon as anyone (not necessarily the author) writes down the choreography, the copyright laws cut in. > Actually, I think this discussion needs to be had and re-had in the ECD > and similar contexts. My own concern is for the creators -- the people > who make the music, write/ compose the dances, make (legal) recordings > which are openly sold and distributed, and also those who write books > about sword dance and other arcane topics -- too often it's assumed that > the material they have created is just out there, free for the pickin' > (and distributin'). It's not and it shouldn't be. An illustrative anecdote: I used to belong to a small but moderately successful band, which spent a lot of time on the road, playing at small venues for crappy pay. Of course, we sold CDs, some of which were self-produced, and some of which were produced by entities which purported to be record labels but which paid us really minuscule amounts of money. The income from the CD sales was pretty much what made it possible for us to do these tours -- and I should add that this is true for pretty much all small-time touring folk music acts. Well, one night we were all sitting behind the merchandise table at a little dive called Club Fred in Fresno, and a couple of young women came up to the table and started looking through the CDs. "We just LOVE your music!," they exclaimed. "We've never heard you before, but we think you're just GREAT! Which CD is XYZ on?," one of them asked, naming a song we'd done in the previous set. One of us handed her the appropriate CD. "How about WXY?," said the other one, naming a different song. That, it turned out, was on a different CD. "Ok, tell you want," said one of them to her friend. "I'll buy this CD, and you buy that one, and then I'll make you a tape and you make me one, and then we'll both have both of them! Isn't that a great idea?" This was with the entire band sitting right there listening, with no attempt whatsoever to keep us from hearing it, and, obviously, with no thought at all about the fact that we were trying to make a living selling the damn things, and that if each of them had copies of two CDs then we'd like to be paid for four CDs. We sold them what they wanted to buy and didn't say anything, but to this day I wish I'd sat them down, bought them a beer, and explained what copyright laws were for. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:11:27 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <409A9BCE.80401-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:10:54 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Showing What You Know, &c. References: <20040506161847.74510.qmail-AT-web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham Christian wrote: > As dancers, we want to move, so callers do have an > obligation to be brief and relevant--but *some* > information, well-delivered, can improve the dancing > that follows. I don't disagree. However, I think there's a line between information that's delivered for the purpose of improving the dancing and information that's delivered for the purpose of impressing the dancers with the caller's level of erudition. I don't know if I could define precisely where that line lies, but I think that for a lot of callers there would be pretty general agreement about which side they stand on. I also think that it's entirely possible to call a successful and enjoyable dance without one single solitary reference to the historical backgrounds of the dances. They might be fun, and they might add a certain degree of interest and enlightenment when used in moderation as Graham suggests, but I don't think they're a sine qua non. The assertion that I think both Tom and I were reacting to was the one that you just can't be a good caller without knowing all the historical details. I don't really think that's true. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:40:08 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040506203946.25784.qmail-AT-web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:39:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Showing What You Know, &c. To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I respectfully, if slightly, disagree with Mr. Berger's last statement. It *is* possible to have a perfectly fine evening of dance without making any explicit historical references. Some events and crowds necessitate doing just this--sometimes you can look out into the faces and say to yourself, "They're not going to give a flap about X, Y, or Z." However. If you are a caller, it is helpful to know at least broadly if the dance is mid-17th century, late 17th, 18th c., modern, and so on. Dances from different periods are apt to feel somewhat different, one from another; likewise, different modern dance-choreographers have slightly different stylistic expectations, and that too is good to know before teaching their dances. I suspect that dancers benefit from the caller's knowledge, *even* if that knowledge is not made explicit at the time of the teaching. ===== Graham Christian "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:47:40 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: How much should the dance leader know? - (was portable dance instruction library) To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:47:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Here are a couple thoughts on the topic. Apologies in advance - I can't seem to find the right words, but hopefully my intended points will reach you anyway: I sort of agree with Jon. As far as the dance leader is concerned, it suffices that they do a good job of drawing people in. Once they are hooked, they will gravitate towards the style and manner of dances they prefer. I don't like innovations purely for the sake of innovation (which I occasionally observe amongst performing groups). In my opinion, it helps if the leader is knowledgeable because their judgement is enhanced by experience and a depth of understanding. One should always have a reason for selecting one choice of interpretation over another. The reason might be that this adaptation suits these dancers on the floor now better than another. It might be that a particular interpretation brings an aura of years past to an evening that would respond to this flavor. It might be that the leader is attempting to satiate the desire of a group of re-enactors for authenticity. Whatever the rationale, there should BE a rationale. Generally, I don't consider the dancers need to know or understand the whys of the leader, but what if someone asks? A knowledgeable caller has already articulated the rationale to oneself so the response sounds well-founded and this is important insofar as it helps to build the dancers' confidence in the leader. I feel that this confidence is integral to a smoothly run evening. This brings me to another point that is related to the confidence the dancers have in their leader of the evening. I'm sure we all often find ourselves in situations where we on the dance floor are more knowledgeable (or at least we think we are) than the leader; especially the members on this list. In such situations, I feel it is best to try to keep one's mouth shut and let the leader lead. Unless they are explicitly sought, even "helpful" suggestions can undermine the perception of authority. This can lead to chaotic evenings if the dancers lose confidence in the leader. If it really seems there is impending disaster, I feel one should attempt to approach the leader one-on-one before the music starts to make one's suggestion rather than to holler it out publicly from the dance floor. Part of being helpful and courteous is to approach the dance with the assumption that each leader has their own wisdom and their own knowledge base that may or may not line up with one's own experience and to some degree, that is why one is attending this particular evening. Each of us has a distinct wealth of knowledge derived from research and experience. Occasional anecdotes, or infrequent explanations as to why (for example why one is teaching something differently than is commonly done) can pique the dancers' interest in reconstruction and perhaps remind them that they are dancing the results of careful thought and judgement as well as the creative spirit that initiated this tune and dance. Sometimes it is helpful in getting the dancers to try something that is different from their previous experience if one adds that there is a reason why you want them to do it thus rather than just let them think you got it wrong. This can easily be overdone as Jon so eloquently described. On the other hand, I fear sometimes that I have erred in under-explanation so that many have attributed my style to ignorance rather than calculated judgement. But if the dancers are having fun and enjoying the evening, it seems that this is what matters most; far more than how ignorant they think I am! Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 13:53:23 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040506205302.72544.qmail-AT-web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:53:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Showing What You Know, &c. To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Graham love, I believe you may be taking this one a tad too personally. Of course there are some callers who natter on incessantly - in what realm of life isn't there? But, and I say this for all to hear (metaphorically that is), I don't know any caller in the ECD community who provides dance commentary that is as consistantly entertaining, and deliciously illuminating with regard to the heart of a dance as you do. Listening to what Graham has to say about a dance is almost as much fun as dancing it. --- Graham Christian wrote: > As one of those callers who *either* displays in-depth > knowledge *or* goes on and on, depending, probably, on > the auditor's perspective, I say this: > Some dancers bristle with resentment at *any* data > beyond the merest indication of the track--not just > background, but style, hints, *anything*. These > dancers are often sure they're just super at all > times, and that they need nothing--they're the > *likeliest* to make weak hand-turns and crummy > gate-turns and tread on their partners' feet. > Candidly, I think such dancers are in the long run a > poor match for English Country Dance. There are dance > types without a "leader," or wherein the leader may as > well be coin-operated--not ECD. > These dances have a long and venerable history--an > ancient (that is, Renaissance and Baroque) history, > and a modern history. Even new dances--perhaps > especially new dances--come from somewhere. If, > however, I choose to mention something about a dance, > I try not to let that mention interfere with the speed > and clarity of my instruction. > Why *not* mention that the dance was written for > Madame X, if she is in the room? Likewise, I will > often say: "The title of the dance seems to mean > thus-and-so," especially if I can go on to say: "--and > here is how we see it in the dance." Some information > may actually *shape* our dancing. If I see fit to > mention something that is just a Fun Fact, I'll make a > jest of that too. > As dancers, we want to move, so callers do have an > obligation to be brief and relevant--but *some* > information, well-delivered, can improve the dancing > that follows. > > ===== > Graham Christian > "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ===== The choice is ours: http://www.moveonpac.org/warrecord/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:09:57 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Showing What You Know, &c. To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:09:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jon said: I also think that it's entirely possible to call a successful and enjoyable dance without one single solitary reference to the historical backgrounds of the dances. They might be fun, and they might add a certain degree of interest and enlightenment when used in moderation as Graham suggests, but I don't think they're a sine qua non. The assertion that I think both Tom and I were reacting to was the one that you just can't be a good caller without knowing all the historical details. I don't really think that's true. Cammy's reply: I should clarify that when I said that I felt a leader ought to have a "rationale" for how they lead the evening and how they want the dancers to do the various dances, it need not have a historical basis at all. The reason could simply be that one felt it was just the thing for these dancers now. I agree that it is perfectly possible for someone who is completely unversed in the background to do a swell job of leading an evening of dances. (On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to have that education even if it does not alter the product and in many instances I believe a caller will glean benefit from this knowledge). Sometimes I wonder if an education in psychology might be as good preparation for a caller as dance history. Perhaps sociology would make a better caller - one who was particularly adept at managing group dynamics. Certainly being a teacher, a musician, an artist, and many other attributes help to shape us and to improve on our efforts as dance leaders. These are all tools to help us shape an evening and the more tools we have, the more freedom we have to shape it for maximum enjoyment of the dancers. Hopefully, all of us are some of all these things and more. The issue that Jon seems to be raising is the distinction between whether the motivation behind the elaboration of historical background is to flaunt one's training or to enhance the dancers' experience. No amount of dance history training can excuse a caller who is driving the dancers to distraction with long-winded explanations! That is an error in judgement that comes about by not being sensitive and observant enough to have seen the signs. I'm sure I'm guilty of such errors but hopefully only occasionally. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:29:01 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20040506222842.36842.qmail-AT-web13606.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:28:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: glifmerkanism To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And a lovely word it is. Do you have a definition to go with it, or are we all invited to submit suggestions? --- Jon Berger wrote: > Here, I'll make up a > word: glifmerkanism. The word "glifmerkanism" is my original work > of > authorship, but I believe that the Supreme Court would say, if > anyone were > to ask them, that there's no copyright protection for individual > words. ===== The choice is ours: http://www.moveonpac.org/warrecord/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:52:20 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu From: "Tony Lewis" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: Subject: RE: Showing What You Know, &c. Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:50:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, so I'm getting a lot of these e-mail and need to know how to get off of this list. I did not subscribe to this and do not care about it. Please let me know how to unsubscribe. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu]On Behalf Of Campbell Kaynor Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 5:10 PM To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Showing What You Know, &c. Jon said: I also think that it's entirely possible to call a successful and enjoyable dance without one single solitary reference to the historical backgrounds of the dances. They might be fun, and they might add a certain degree of interest and enlightenment when used in moderation as Graham suggests, but I don't think they're a sine qua non. The assertion that I think both Tom and I were reacting to was the one that you just can't be a good caller without knowing all the historical details. I don't really think that's true. Cammy's reply: I should clarify that when I said that I felt a leader ought to have a "rationale" for how they lead the evening and how they want the dancers to do the various dances, it need not have a historical basis at all. The reason could simply be that one felt it was just the thing for these dancers now. I agree that it is perfectly possible for someone who is completely unversed in the background to do a swell job of leading an evening of dances. (On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to have that education even if it does not alter the product and in many instances I believe a caller will glean benefit from this knowledge). Sometimes I wonder if an education in psychology might be as good preparation for a caller as dance history. Perhaps sociology would make a better caller - one who was particularly adept at managing group dynamics. Certainly being a teacher, a musician, an artist, and many other attributes help to shape us and to improve on our efforts as dance leaders. These are all tools to help us shape an evening and the more tools we have, the more freedom we have to shape it for maximum enjoyment of the dancers. Hopefully, all of us are some of all these things and more. The issue that Jon seems to be raising is the distinction between whether the motivation behind the elaboration of historical background is to flaunt one's training or to enhance the dancers' experience. No amount of dance history training can excuse a caller who is driving the dancers to distraction with long-winded explanations! That is an error in judgement that comes about by not being sensitive and observant enough to have seen the signs. I'm sure I'm guilty of such errors but hopefully only occasionally. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:24:32 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <409AC910.4060209-AT-sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:24:00 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: glifmerkanism References: <20040506222842.36842.qmail-AT-web13606.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara Ruth wrote: > And a lovely word it is. Do you have a definition to go with it, or > are we all invited to submit suggestions? You should feel free to use it to mean anything you like. And that won't infringe my copyright. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:25:33 PDT Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <409ACA90.9030004-AT-verizon.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:30:24 -0400 From: Stephanie Smith Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Showing What You Know, &c. References: <20040506203946.25784.qmail-AT-web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm with you, Graham. I agree that you can have a fine evening of dance without the references, and there are some occasions which call for it, that extra "verbiage" is just that, not needed. But there are other types of dance evenings. I personally enjoy the tidbits of information that callers provide about the dances, and as a c