Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 15:57:59 PST
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Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 18:57:38 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-aol.com
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Subject: No Subject
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Aidan Broadbridge, Graduate of Trinity College of Music, and Annette Cable, 
Graduate of Berea College, KY, were married in Berea on Monday December 22nd. 
It was a beautiful and very special service in Union Church, conducted by 
Pastor Kent Gilbert in front of a congregation of about a hundred.
    Afterwards, the Wedding Feast was held in the Folk Centre, and was 
followed by dancing, with a mix of Contra, Scottish Ceilidh and English Country 
Dances (the latter including the Dorset Triumph, traditional wedding dance). Music 
was provided by Al and Alice White and Elise Melbrood, with occasional visits 
to the platform by the two Broadbridge gentlemen!

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 16:40:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 20:37:54 -0400
From: John Wood <johnwood-AT-accesscable.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: No Subject [2]
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <111.2cc6177b.2d28b0f2-AT-aol.com>

Congratulations to the Bridal pair and to you for
inheriting a daughter-in-law!

Happy playing and dancing to you all.

Sincere regards, John
Bedford, Nova Scotia

Subject: No Subject


> Aidan Broadbridge, Graduate of Trinity College of Music, and Annette
Cable,
> Graduate of Berea College, KY, were married in Berea on Monday December
22nd.
> It was a beautiful and very special service in Union Church, conducted by
> Pastor Kent Gilbert in front of a congregation of about a hundred.
>     Afterwards, the Wedding Feast was held in the Folk Centre, and was
> followed by dancing, with a mix of Contra, Scottish Ceilidh and English
Country
> Dances (the latter including the Dorset Triumph, traditional wedding
dance). Music
> was provided by Al and Alice White and Elise Melbrood, with occasional
visits
> to the platform by the two Broadbridge gentlemen!

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:40:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:38:35 -0500
From: martha c davey <marthacd-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What's the Deal with the Fair Quaker?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040104.103838.-156163.0.marthacd-AT-juno.com>
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 In New York, I began dancing around the time the PB book came out and I 
hadn't danced Fair Quaker of Deal in the KH version, only the PB version.
I learned the KH version a few years ago and I didn't like it as well.
To understand why, one must experience the woman's part as
both versions feel essentially the same for the men.
The man in first position essentially sets, turns single and casts.
The pleasure is in winding and unwinding- turning single
to the right, then casting to the left.

In the PB version, where this is done by the first corners,
both gender roles get to do this. In addition the inactive
corners curl up or down the inside of the set while the
active corners cast and have an extra eye contact opportunity.
 
In the KH version, the woman in 1st corner position sets,
turns single, then leads up. The woman in 2nd corner position
waits, then casts; neither are as satisfying as in the PB and
the flirt opportunity is missing for the 2nd corner positions.

The PB book was compiled/interpreted by two women who
probably made an aesthetic choice.

Be well!
Martha


Tom Roby wrote:
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:35:30 -0800


  A fellow caller pointed out to me that the versions of *Fair Quaker 
 of  Deal* in Kentish Hops (Second picking) and The Playford Ball 
 differ,  even though the latter lists the former as the modern source. 
The 
 major difference is in the A's, where PB has the  corners casting into 
their neighbors places after setting and turning single WHILE KH (2P) has

the top couple casting down.  KH clearly agrees with the original 
facsimile quoted in PB.  

So I'm wondering if anyone can shed any light on the modern history 
of  this dance.  PB generally seems to be codifying the common practice 
 of  at least some "villages".  What has the general practice been in 
 your  area?  
 
 Best wishes to everyone for a New Year filled with dance!
 
                                      Tom 
 Tom Roby                                      
> 


Be well!
Martha
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:49:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:49:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Shoe Thoughts
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040105194902.53563.qmail-AT-web13603.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- Dan Pearl <daniel_pearl-AT-YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Shower Caps with elastic brims.  VERY compact.  "FREE!" from the
> toiletries at hotels.  If you need something more robust to stand
> up to urban streets, maybe a heavier duty cap would do the job.
> 
> Or rubbers. I like that idea!

Aha - a great marketing campaign: "Safe Shoes!"



=====
It is in the nature of tyranny to deride the will of the people as the voice of the mob, and to denounce the cry for freedom as the roar of anarchy.
 --William Safire,  1989

__________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:22:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 16:22:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Shoe Thoughts
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1a4.1e7d2dab.2d2b2f87-AT-aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 1/5/2004 3:05:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
barbararuth-AT-ROCKETMAIL.COM writes:
If you need something more robust to stand
> up to urban streets, maybe a heavier duty cap would do the job.
> 
> Or rubbers. I like that idea!

Aha - a great marketing campaign: "Safe Shoes!"
Oh yah-- "Safe Steps"

or, killing two birds with one stone:  "Wear your rubbers; take safe steps."

Deborah

--Boundary_(ID_XBWwiUQ5JGSm3swF+xMb2A)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/5/2004 3:05:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, barbararuth-AT-ROCKETMAIL.COM writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>If you need something more robust to stand<BR>&gt; up to urban streets, maybe a heavier duty cap would do the job.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Or rubbers. I like that idea!<BR><BR>Aha - a great marketing campaign: "Safe Shoes!"</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Oh yah-- "Safe Steps"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>or, killing two birds with one stone:&nbsp; "Wear your rubbers; take safe steps."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Deborah</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_XBWwiUQ5JGSm3swF+xMb2A)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 00:28:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:30:05 -0500
From: jbgrun <jbgrun-AT-berk.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Shoe Thoughts
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM

take safe steps

as in the complex early dance, STEP SAFELY?

Judy G

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:31:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:02:09 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Companions by Vic Skowronski
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040106.230215.-229701.11.gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
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Just had a look at this site, which has Victor's final version of the
dance and wording as it was worked out at the Open Mic session at
Pinewoods English Week last summer. 

For those who'd like to try this great new dance but have not seen or
done it, there might be a bit of confusion in the B1.  Where it instructs
the 1st corner people to finish the chevron by backing into neighbor's
place, he means backing _across_ the set, not along the line...  This
flows directly into the half-pousette (clockwise, with partner).  

Hoping this prevents some possible confusion,

Gene

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:34:29 -0800 Alan Ackerman
<alan.ackerman-AT-EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: M.G. Mudrey, Jr. <mgmudrey-AT-MHTC.NET>
> >
> ><<Tom Roby has posed the Music and Directions for Victor's dances 
> with
> >Victor's permission
> >
> >http://seki.mcs.csuhayward.edu/~troby/Skowronski/companions.pdf
> >>>
> >

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Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:19:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:19:05 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fair Quaker of Deal
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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<<Tom Roby wrote:
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:35:30 -0800


  A fellow caller pointed out to me that the versions of *Fair Quaker 
 of  Deal* in Kentish Hops (Second picking) and The Playford Ball 
 differ,  even though the latter lists the former as the modern source. 
The 
 major difference is in the A's, where PB has the  corners casting into 
their neighbors places after setting and turning single WHILE KH (2P) has

the top couple casting down.  KH clearly agrees with the original 
facsimile quoted in PB.  

So I'm wondering if anyone can shed any light on the modern history 
of  this dance.  PB generally seems to be codifying the common practice 
 of  at least some "villages".  What has the general practice been in 
 your  area?  
 
 Best wishes to everyone for a New Year filled with dance!
 
                                      Tom >>
I have always used Pat Shaw's transcription of this dance, which I learnt at 
The Round in Cambridge in 1960 (only discovering it was Pat's interpretation 
year's later!), and this is the version I published in the Booklet of our 
recording 'Pat Shaw's Playford'. 
    I cannot see any reason for the 1st CORNERS to cast, reading the 
original, which seems very clear in the A music.
    The difference between KH and Pat is in the B music: I seriously believe 
Pat's to be the logical transcription.


Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:20:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 22:20:27 -0500 (EST)
From: CPChurchOffice-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: ECD in Japan?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Hello dancers,
I have just helped three young ladies from Japan to become enamored with ECD 
while they were visiting Maryland. I was under the faint impression that I had 
heard it is popular in Japan but I can't remember where I received that 
impression and my search for a Japanese ECD group has proven futile thus far. I am 
hopeful that this posting will find a connection for them.
Many thanks, in advance.

Margaret Talbot
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 00:01:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 00:02:50 -0800
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD in Japan?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040107233939.0696d360-AT-popserver.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 10:20 PM 1/7/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello dancers,
>I have just helped three young ladies from Japan to become enamored with ECD
>while they were visiting Maryland. I was under the faint impression that I 
>had
>heard it is popular in Japan but I can't remember where I received that
>impression and my search for a Japanese ECD group has proven futile thus 
>far. I am
>hopeful that this posting will find a connection for them.

Mr. Hiroyuki Ikema, who visited the San Francisco Bay Area last June to 
attend the Flying Romanos weekend, has been working to popularize English 
country dancing in Japan.  Ikema-san can be reached by mail as follows:
Hiroyuki Ikema
Aobadai 1-11-4-12-308
Aoba-ku Yokohama
Japan
I hope your new dancers enjoy meeting Ikema-san and dancing with him.  We 
certainly did!
Cheers,
Sharon Green 


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:35:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:33:31 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD in Japan?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040108.073346.25056.1526594-AT-webmail20.nyc.untd.com>
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I'm not sure about ECD, but Scottish is big in Tokyo--sopme years ago my chum was a member of the SBBC (pronounced ess b b shee, standing for Scottish Blue Bell Club) & when I went to visit her I was privileged to dance a couple of times with them--great fun!--and even attend a ball. I lugged a ball gown & ghillies around Japan for 3 weeks! The ball started at 3 pm, broke for a nasty, western style dinner with white soup & salad with french dressing, resumed and then ended at 9 so that we could all take baths before they closed at 10. Then we sat around in a small room on the floor & drank beer. If your young friends want a contact person for SCD, let me know off line.

Allison Thompson
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:24:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:23:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike White <dangnabbit_2-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Companions by Vic Skowronski
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040109182332.7091.qmail-AT-web13606.mail.yahoo.com>
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We did this dance in Cincinnati last night.  The dance
met with high acclaim here as well and requests were
made to do the dance again at our next meeting.  

We had 8 couples doing the dance and we discovered
quickly that the change in movements from being a
first couple to a second couple were quite daunting. 
I will need to work out a way to get everyone familiar
with all of the movements without dragging out the
walk through.  

Our biggest trouble with the instructions from the web
site was the description of getting to the line of
four to begin the hey.  Once that problem was figured
out, the rest of the dance was entirely wonderful.

All agreed it was a unique and different piece of
choreography that was very, very pleasing.

One of our musicians is a renaissance music enthusiast
and she noted that a recording she has of that tune
was played at a slow, stately pace.  What was the
intended speed for the tune when the dance was
written?

Mike White
Cincinnati English Country Dancers



--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-JUNO.COM> wrote:
> Just had a look at this site, which has Victor's
> final version of the
> dance and wording as it was worked out at the Open
> Mic session at
> Pinewoods English Week last summer. 
> 
> For those who'd like to try this great new dance but
> have not seen or
> done it, there might be a bit of confusion in the
> B1.  Where it instructs
> the 1st corner people to finish the chevron by
> backing into neighbor's
> place, he means backing _across_ the set, not along
> the line...  This
> flows directly into the half-pousette (clockwise,
> with partner).  
> 
> Hoping this prevents some possible confusion,
> 
> Gene
> 
> On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:34:29 -0800 Alan Ackerman
> <alan.ackerman-AT-EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: M.G. Mudrey, Jr. <mgmudrey-AT-MHTC.NET>
> > >
> > ><<Tom Roby has posed the Music and Directions for
> Victor's dances 
> > with
> > >Victor's permission
> > >
> >
>
>http://seki.mcs.csuhayward.edu/~troby/Skowronski/companions.pdf
> > >>>
> > >
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-post.harvard.edu> - for
> your Address book
> ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>         -
> "Reply" button
> destination


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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:05:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:05:01 -0500
From: Frederic Emigh <frederic.emigh-AT-verizon.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Companions by Vic Skowronski (the music thereof)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BC248FBD.8243%frederic.emigh-AT-verizon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Mike White wrote:
> One of our musicians is a renaissance music enthusiast and she noted that a
> recording she has of that tune was played at a slow, stately pace. What was
> the intended speed for the tune when the dance was written?

I don't know the original intention for mode of playing, and did not
recognize Susato's Ronde II as it was played when I first encountered
Companions in Boston.   I had heard recordings of it before indeed as
stately, if not downright sombre.  It took Sharon Green's prompting on this
list for me to recognize the tune.  The Boston dance musicians played it
faster, with more energy and drive - in a manner perfect for the mood and
movement of Companions.  Because that way of playing worked so well, I would
guess that such was the original intention of the dance composer.   It also
occurs to me that 'A Trip to Killburn' might work almost as well for the
dance.   Haven't tried to match 'Trip' to 'Companions' dance directions yet,
however, to confirm.

Fred Emigh
Montpelier, Vermont

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:53:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:00:35 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Companions by Vic Skowronski (the music thereof)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040109.200041.-229701.14.gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:05:01 -0500 Frederic Emigh
<frederic.emigh-AT-VERIZON.NET> writes:
> Mike White wrote:
> > One of our musicians is a renaissance music enthusiast and she 
> noted that a
> > recording she has of that tune was played at a slow, stately pace. 
> What was
> > the intended speed for the tune when the dance was written?
> 
> I don't know the original intention for mode of playing, and did 
> not
> recognize Susato's Ronde II as it was played when I first 
> encountered
> Companions in Boston.   I had heard recordings of it before indeed 
> as
> stately, if not downright sombre.  

Susato used the word "ronde" to indicate a dance in the round or circle
dance, i.e. a French bransle.  Generally, those dances were pretty
lively, with vigorous stepping and sometimes miming actions.   But all
generalizations are false :-)  of course.  My hunch is that the famous
recording in question reflects some non-dance considerations of the tempo
(see last paragraph), and that a quick tempo suitable for Companions may
be closer to the intent of the 16th-century composer and consumers of the
original dance tune.

When Victor brought the dance to the Pinewoods workshop, he had the
slower tempo in mind!  The opening sequence's similarity to Nat'l.
Kynaston's now popular "Softly Good Tummas" prompted me to suggest a
similarly quick tempo.  Victor and we guinea pigs preferred it that way,
so that's where we left it.

Jonathan Jensen and I had a discussion about the harmonies in Susato for
these rondes.  In Susato, the harmonic changes are quick, on the
quarter-note (crotchet), suggesting a slower tempo (sounds like we're
going 'round in circles, eh?).  But these are Susato's _arrangements_ of
popular dance tunes, intended for consort playing by amateurs... they
were not professional "fake books" for the working bandsman, who would
have known all those tunes by memory no doubt.  So the paradox is... the
original dance tune, for a bransle, probably went at a fast tempo.  But
if one plays from Susato's 4-part arrangements, the tempo probably should
be on the slow side (as recorded).  My conclusion is that for Companions,
use just the melody, harmonize it as you like on the fly with drones and
simple changes on the half-note (minim) or measure as would have been
done in the 16th century, and let 'er rip.  As to whether bransle tunes
are right for longways dances... well that's a whole other bone to chew
on.

Gene
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:00:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:00:20 -0500
From: Louis Vosteen <lvosteen1-AT-cox.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Companions by Vic Skowronski
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20A32852-4319-11D8-AFA8-0003936D91D2-AT-cox.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
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On Friday, January 9, 2004, at 01:23 PM, Mike White wrote:
> ...
>
> One of our musicians is a renaissance music enthusiast
> and she noted that a recording she has of that tune
> was played at a slow, stately pace.  What was the
> intended speed for the tune when the dance was
> written?
>
> Mike White
> Cincinnati English Country Dancers
>

Can you share with us what this recording was? I have one by the 
Canadian Brass that plays the music AABC and with lots of retards - not 
too suitable for dancing (or suited to the structure of "Companions").

Lou

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:27:21 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:25:03 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ecd list <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Hi folks:

Someone asked at the dance tonight, and I had no clue. Does anyone out there
know why Pat Shaw named his tune/dance "Bare Necessities"?

Peace,
Paul

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:53:41 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:53:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ecd list <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Paul Stamler wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
> Someone asked at the dance tonight, and I had no clue. Does anyone out there
> know why Pat Shaw named his tune/dance "Bare Necessities"?

After a hardware store in Bare, England.

Cheers,

Susie Lorand
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:59:59 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:59:41 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Companions by Vic Skowronski
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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They may not be the best musicians, but they're hardly retards. :)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Vosteen" <lvosteen1-AT-COX.NET>
To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Companions by Vic Skowronski


> >
> 
> Can you share with us what this recording was? I have one by the 
> Canadian Brass that plays the music AABC and with lots of retards - not 
> too suitable for dancing (or suited to the structure of "Companions").
> 
> Lou
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:51:19 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:50:59 +0000
From: catiegeist-AT-att.net
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Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
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I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when I was in Atlanta in 
September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a strip club called "Bare 
Necessities" on my way to and from the church where the workshop and dances 
were held!

Catie Condran Geist, Palm Bay, Florida
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:55:08 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:54:43 -0500 (EST)
From: HARVBCOHEN-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Pat had some friends who owned a hardware store in the town of Bare. I do not 
currently have access to my dance books, but I believe the original gives 
their name which I think starts with B. I also believe the store's name was 
Necessities and did not include Bare. Another reason for owning the original of the 
sources.

Harvey Cohen
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:22:18 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:23:42 -0800
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 09:54 AM 1/10/2004 -0500, Harvey wrote:
>Pat had some friends who owned a hardware store in the town of Bare. I do not
>currently have access to my dance books, but I believe the original gives
>their name which I think starts with B. I also believe the store's name was
>Necessities and did not include Bare. Another reason for owning the 
>original of the
>sources.

 From The Pat Shaw Collection, v.1

Composed in 1974 for Gladys and Joe Muschamp who live at Bare in 
Cheshire.  They run a hardware shop which Pat suggested should be called 
'Bare Necessities,' an idea that they readily accepted.  


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:48:18 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:48:59 -0500
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-erols.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when I was in Atlanta in
> September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a strip club called "Bare
> Necessities" on my way to and from the church where the workshop and
dances
> were held!

Were they performing to ECD music?

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:10:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:10:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Pat Shaw sources (was Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?)
To: ECD mailing list <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401101227510.2107-AT-phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Sharon Green wrote:

>  From The Pat Shaw Collection, v.1
>
> Composed in 1974 for Gladys and Joe Muschamp who live at Bare in
> Cheshire.  They run a hardware shop which Pat suggested should be called
> 'Bare Necessities,' an idea that they readily accepted.

According to vol. 2, in that same year he also wrote a rant for them (tune
& dance) entitled Muschamp's Maggot.  Has anyone on the list tried it?

I agree with Harvey about the value of having the sources.  Pat Shaw lived
from 1917 to 1977; this collection of his dances was compiled and edited
by Marjorie Fennessey and published in 1986 by Harry Styles (Carshalton,
Surrey, but the title page says London).

ISBNs:
vol. 1, 0-9509457-6-5
vol. 2, 0-9509457-7-3 (contains the beautiful 2nd tune for Margaret's
                       Waltz, i.e., Farewell to Devon)
vol. 3, 0-9509457-8-1 (includes a cumulative index)
3-volume set, 0-9509457-5-7

I know of two other Pat Shaw dance books: New Wine in Old Bottles (54
dances to Old Dutch tunes) and Pat Shaw's Pinewoods (originally two
volumes, Between Two Ponds and Among the Pines).

Bibliographically yours,

Susie Lorand, Princeton, NJ (procrastinating about going out into the cold)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:37:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:37:33 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: mk-AT-fennessy.fsnet.co.uk
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In a message dated 10/1/04 3:03:10 pm, system-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu writes:

<< Someone asked at the dance tonight, and I had no clue. Does anyone out 
there
know why Pat Shaw named his tune/dance "Bare Necessities"?

Peace,
Paul >>

Joe and Gladys Muschamp (pronounced "musham") lived at Bare, a suburb of 
Morecambe in Lancs. They made their house available to Pat Shaw as a staging post 
for overnights when he was travelling between London and Edinburgh.
    The Muschamps opened a hardware shop, and Pat suggested they call it 
"Bare necessities", a name they enthusiastically adopted.
    In 1974, as a gift for their hospitality, Pat composed a set of four 
dances which he gave the overall title "Muschamps' Mushrooms" for Joe and Gladys: 
the four dances in the set are Muschamp's Maggot, Bare Necessities, Gladys's 
Galop - or Gladsome Gladys, Joseph's Jig - or Jovial Joe. Numbers 1,3 and 4 are 
all available on our two Pat Shaw CDs "Long Live London" and "Walpole 
Cottage".
    The statement in the Pat Shaw Cllection that they lived at Bare in 
Cheshire is erroneous, and the only error I have ever found in Marjorie Fennessy's 
work!
    The Muschamps are both now dead, but the shop still trades under the name 
"Bare Necessities". 

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:57:45 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:57:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- catiegeist-AT-ATT.NET wrote:
> ....when I was in Atlanta in September for the ECD
> workshop weekend, I passed a strip club called "Bare

> Necessities" on my way to and from the church where
> the workshop and dances were held!

There was an ad in a travel magazine for a beach camp
vacation for nudists. I cut it out and passed it on to
the band of the same name. 

Lyrl 





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:56:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:56:16 +0000
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Pat Shaw sources (was Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001901c3d7b3$cf96f300$048b4e51-AT-default>
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Hi
Re the comment on Carshalton, Surrey and the title page saying London.

Where Harry Styles lives is locally known as Carshalton Beeches (the posh
end of Carshalton - used to be referred to as Wallington). Since the
introduction of the Greater London Council to enlarge London, this part of
Surrey was swallowed up into outer London as part of the London Borough of
Sutton, which it still is.

I think they still like to think of Carshalton as being Surrey postal area
but in fact it has a post code with the letters SM showing that it has
Streatham, London as its postal HQ.

Hope that helps

Alan Corkett
(Born in Carshalton 1936 now living in Somerset UK.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan R. Lorand <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
To: ECD mailing list <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Date: 10 January 2004 18:22
Subject: Pat Shaw sources (was Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?)


On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Sharon Green wrote:

>  From The Pat Shaw Collection, v.1
>
> Composed in 1974 for Gladys and Joe Muschamp who live at Bare in
> Cheshire.  They run a hardware shop which Pat suggested should be called
> 'Bare Necessities,' an idea that they readily accepted.

According to vol. 2, in that same year he also wrote a rant for them (tune
& dance) entitled Muschamp's Maggot.  Has anyone on the list tried it?

I agree with Harvey about the value of having the sources.  Pat Shaw lived
from 1917 to 1977; this collection of his dances was compiled and edited
by Marjorie Fennessey and published in 1986 by Harry Styles (Carshalton,
Surrey, but the title page says London).

ISBNs:
vol. 1, 0-9509457-6-5
vol. 2, 0-9509457-7-3 (contains the beautiful 2nd tune for Margaret's
                       Waltz, i.e., Farewell to Devon)
vol. 3, 0-9509457-8-1 (includes a cumulative index)
3-volume set, 0-9509457-5-7

I know of two other Pat Shaw dance books: New Wine in Old Bottles (54
dances to Old Dutch tunes) and Pat Shaw's Pinewoods (originally two
volumes, Between Two Ponds and Among the Pines).

Bibliographically yours,

Susie Lorand, Princeton, NJ (procrastinating about going out into the cold)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:13:50 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:13:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 1/10/2004 1:04:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mjoconor-AT-EROLS.COM writes:
> I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when I was in Atlanta in
> September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a strip club called "Bare
> Necessities" on my way to and from the church where the workshop and
dances
> were held!

Were they performing to ECD music?
Perhaps Scottish:  "The Silver Tassie"

-Deborah

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/10/2004 1:04:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, mjoconor-AT-EROLS.COM writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>&gt; I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when I was in Atlanta in<BR>&gt; September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a strip club called "Bare<BR>&gt; Necessities" on my way to and from the church where the workshop and<BR>dances<BR>&gt; were held!<BR><BR>Were they performing to ECD music?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps Scottish:&nbsp; "The Silver Tassie"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-Deborah</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_NTUjqUgOGx5GlYdT91ZjAg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:25:04 PST
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:24:43 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Morris News
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF0ABC2D0D.D9696871-ON85256E17.006FD34F-85256E17.00701222-AT-biogenidec.com>
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If any of you who are also Morris Dancers, you may have encountered Howie
Seidel.
(We honored Howard for 50 years of dance this year).

It with great sadness that I relay that our good and old
friend Howard Seidel passed away during the afternoon of
Monday January 5.
If you wish for more information, contact me off list.
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:08:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:06:16 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: comments from Victor re Companions-dance & music
To: ECD list <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <40008567.3EB1D7F1-AT-wi.mit.edu>
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: Companions by Vic Skowronski (the music thereof)]
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:16:57 -0800
From: "Skowronski, Victor J." <victor.skowronski-AT-ngc.com>
To: 'Deb Karl' <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>

Deb,

Thanks for passing this on. 

Gene is correct about what happened at Pinewoods and about my original
intent that Companions be done at a slower tempo. I had changed my mind
about the tempo before Pinewoods, however. The first time that we tried
Companions at Second Saturday, Ken Allen played at the faster tempo. I
remember thinking "Wow, that's great!" and since then I have thought
that it
should be played at a faster tempo. I did not do that at Pinewoods
because I
am a lousy caller and did not communicate my intent to the band (I was also
concentrating on teaching the dance, and did not notice the slower tempo
until Gene pointed it out.)

You may want to pass that on to the reflector so that Ken gets some credit
for the idea of the faster tempo.

As far as recordings go, the Canadian Brass have recorded Ronde II at the
slower tempo on their CD "Renaissance Men." I also have another
recording of
a brass quintet at the slower tempo. This appears to be the standard in
classical music circles. I do wonder what the Canadian Brass would do if
they ever heard the faster tempo. It could become a jazz piece very easily.

What happened with Ronde II is similar to what I think happened to The Cutty
Wren, the tune for Rafe's Waltz. When I finally saw the words, I thought
that this was a song that you sang in a tavern after you have had one too
many. Ralph Vaughn Williams saw the tune differently, however, and that was
what I was reacting to when I wrote Rafe's Waltz.

Victor
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:27:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:22:52 -0500
From: nonesuch-AT-si.umich.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1073834572.40016a4c8231b-AT-krusty.si.umich.edu>
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References: <00A2BB99.008E763F.5-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu>

Lyrl remarked
 
> --- catiegeist-AT-ATT.NET wrote:
> > ....when I was in Atlanta in September for the ECD
> > workshop weekend, I passed a strip club called "Bare
> 
> > Necessities" on my way to and from the church where
> > the workshop and dances were held!
> 
> There was an ad in a travel magazine for a beach camp
> vacation for nudists. I cut it out and passed it on to
> the band of the same name. 
> 
> Lyrl 

Also a bath-stuff store (eight bazillion kinds of soap and shower caps
with quotes from Voltaire on them, you know the kind of place) on Castro
St. in San Francisco.  This is beginning to sound like a photo-op, to me.

And, while I'm on the air....Hi everybody, I've changed my email
address.  The old one <Tideswell-AT-aol.com> is about to be released to the
secular arm, so please update your address books to show me at
<Nonesuch-AT-umich.edu>

But just to be absolutely clear, that does *not* mean that I'm attending
grad school in Shirley and Howard's bus!

Cheers

Nilos
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:05:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:05:11 -0800 (PST)
From: SUSAN <susantiq-AT-prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Whence Came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040111180511.20522.qmail-AT-web80211.mail.yahoo.com>
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...Not to mention a Canadian dog food bearing ("dogged by"?) this name. Hmmm. 
 
Are there connections here? As in, scantily clad or sky-clad vacationers, basking in aromatic, beach-side hot tubs, with well-fed Labrador retrievers dining nearby from doggy dishes from the hardware store, all to the accompaniment of the BNs, playing their signature tune...(have to get ECD content in somewhere, you know...).
 
Now, THERE'S a photo-op!
 
Susan Booker
 


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<DIV>
<DIV>...Not to mention a Canadian dog food&nbsp;bearing ("dogged by"?)&nbsp;this name. Hmmm. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Are there connections here? As in, scantily clad or sky-clad vacationers, basking in aromatic, beach-side hot tubs, with well-fed Labrador retrievers dining nearby from doggy dishes from the hardware store, all to the accompaniment of the BNs, playing their signature tune...(have to get ECD content in somewhere, you know...).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now,&nbsp;THERE'S a photo-op!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Susan Booker</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>

--Boundary_(ID_fRayMu1M8zp4DnAh4nl3gg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:05:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:54:57 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040111.225507.-229701.17.gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
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Tom's recent post re:Companions reminded me of his earlier response to
something I had written and the unfinished reply sitting in my "drafts"
folder.  The immodesty of my thinking that anyone might care to read my
tardy reply is outweighed by my desire to avoid the impression of
rudeness by not writing anything.  So here goes...

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:45:50 -0800 (PST) Tom Vincent
<tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com> writes:
> Gene, I don't see how you can compare one contemporary
> interpretation to another and say one is more
> 'authentic' than another.
> 
> Until we steal a Time Machine from Area 51 (please
> stop in 11/2000 and fix Florida first!), we'll never
> know what inflections, tempo, improvisations, or
> 'lifts and lilts', if any, period musicians used.  
> 
> And that doesn't account for culture, setting, season,
> training or mood differences.  
> 
> A performance of a tune by a quartet in Germany for a
> summer wedding in a garden probably was completely
> different than the same piece done by a small
> orchestra in England for a winter's feast at a Duke's
> palace.
> 
> Just as looking at a 17th century recipe gives you
> nothing about measurements, times or temperatures,
> looking at 17th century sheet music gives you nothing
> about tempo, accents or mood.  We'll never know the
> variances an individual piece went through.
> 
> Shouldn't it just be satisfying enough that people are
> doing them -at all- as well as with a sincere pleasure
> in appreciating history?
> 
> Tom Vincent
> 
Tom raises several of the important questions that dog efforts at
authentic or historically informed re-creation of music and dance from
centuries ago, and that we've discussed occasionally in this forum.

But just because we don't know _everything_, doesn't mean we don't know
_something_ (sorry if this sounds like Donald Rumsfield).  We _do_ know
how 17th- and 18th-century century composers arranged dance tunes (nearly
all Baroque composers wrote dance suites), and we have some pretty
detailed choreographies and descriptions of Baroque dance.  The
arrangements (harmonies, counterpoint, written-out ornamentation, even
orchestrations) and the steps match each other, but they don't match the
way we dance "Playford" or "historical-style" country dances now.

Presumably, anyone attempting to reproduce 17th century style is working
from the available evidence, which means the written arrangements and
choreographies that have survived.  That's a noble endeavor when applied
to music _and_ dance together.  We did that at Amherst Assembly for a
week in 1996-- learned the historical steps from Dorrie Olsson, Kitty
Keller and others, and did country dances with those steps to harpsichord
accompaniment by Jacqueline Schwab.  Very worthwhile and indeed a
"sincere pleasure."

What I said in my post was that I was skeptical of attempts to reproduce
the style of 17th- and 18th-century dance music for today's social
English country dance events.  It has a deadening effect on the dance,
accentuating even more the dreaded "Playford plod," something we can do
without, IMHO.  I also said that the style the best current ECD musicians
have evolved works better for "how we dance now" than historically
informed re-creations of 17th century style.  I did not say that any
particular interpretation was more authentic than any other (I think you
misquoted me, Tom).  Indeed, what the folks I mentioned do isn't
authentic (in its historical sense) at all, and they'd be the first to
admit it. 

[sliding his soapbox out from under his desk and erecting his flame
shields...] I think that one of the most unfortunate influences on the
ECD revival was the attention to historical re-creation which absorbed
many teachers and dancers in the mid-1970's.  Suddenly the focus shifted
from learning the spirited style of dance invented and promoted by Sharp
and his followers as appropriate for 20th-century social dancers, to
discussions of thorny points of interpretation, working out alternative
or new interpretations of country dances and walking through the patterns
on the dance floor, and generally unsuccessful attempts by amateurs to
learn Baroque style.  It was a change from "dancing" to "dances." Many
people, especially young people, lost interest, and it's from that point
that I mark the graying and slowing of ECD.  The genre had already lost
the vigor it once had in the 17th & 18th centuries based on the Baroque
style, and now it lost the new vigor it had in the 20th century based on
the revival style.  That's what's behind my curmudgeonly(?) objection to
applying 17th/18th-century musical styles to today's social ECD.  We need
more energy in much of our dancing, not less...  and, once again, music
played in 17th/18th-century styles for 21st-century dancers is
enervating, not invigorating.

Gene 
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Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:55:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:55:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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I heard of a strip club that was doing Shakespeare in
the nude to get around local laws that prohibited
nudity on stage unless it was in a theatrical
performance.  

Perhaps that's an untapped market for ECD as well. ;>

--- "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-EROLS.COM> wrote:
> > I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when
> I was in Atlanta in
> > September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a
> strip club called "Bare
> > Necessities" on my way to and from the church
> where the workshop and
> dances
> > were held!
> 
> Were they performing to ECD music?
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:53:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:50:53 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>

<<I heard of a strip club that was doing Shakespeare in
the nude to get around local laws that prohibited
nudity on stage unless it was in a theatrical
performance.  >>

I imagine they must have stuck to the history plays and the tragedies; all
the comedies seem to involve cross-dressing, and with no clothes...

Peace,
Paul (once more unto the breeches, dear friends)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:59:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:59:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Whence came "Bare Necessities"?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Other good ECD for a strip club:

- Gathering Peascods
- Johney Cock Thy Beaver
- Red and All Red
- The Pleasures of the Town
- The Lasses of Portsmouth
- A School for Scandal
- Once a Night
- Sally in Our Alley
- Kit Cat Club
- Juice of Barly
- The Old Batchelor
- Man was for Woman Made
- Measured Obsession
- Cold and Raw
- The Fit's Come on me Now
- Hey Boys, Up go We
- Scotch Measure
- Marriage Hater
- Hey Ho for my Honey
- The Belles of New York
- Lady's Breast Knot
- Soldier's Joy
- Drive the Cold Winter Away
- Up Tails All

--- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 1/10/2004 1:04:04 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> mjoconor-AT-EROLS.COM writes:
> > I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when
> I was in Atlanta in
> > September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a
> strip club called "Bare
> > Necessities" on my way to and from the church
> where the workshop and
> dances
> > were held!
> 
> Were they performing to ECD music?
> Perhaps Scottish:  "The Silver Tassie"
> 
> -Deborah
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
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Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:21:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:21:05 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Fw: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFE8166177.19B1276C-ON85256E19.004EEFAE-85256E19.006A404E-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Despite the fact I'm sure it will be viewed as contentious, here is how I
respond to Gene Murrow's recent posting on the topic:

"...and we have some pretty detailed choreographies and descriptions of
Baroque dance."

Yes, but 99.9% of it having to do with the social dance of the elite.

"The arrangements (harmonies, counterpoint, written-out ornamentation, even
orchestrations) and the steps match each other, but they don't match the
way we dance "Playford" or "historical-style" country dances now."

I presume you are speaking of the "we" = CDS/CDSS/EFDSS ECD? Hopefully
there is some healthy variety in the field!

"Presumably, anyone attempting to reproduce 17th century style is working
from the available evidence, which means the written arrangements and
choreographies that have survived."

There are some among us who distrust the limited resources that have
survived through time and feel that interpretations based upon such
evidence are GUARANTEED to be far from the standard practices. From those
resources, we gain hints of what to look for, but:
1) the anecdotes are as likely to describe what a particular writer felt
"ought" to be the standard as they are to be representative. For example,
if there is an editorial in a newspaper from colonial America stating that
it is wrong to dance on Sundays, I believe that it is more likely that
dancing was happening on Sundays than that it was not. Even the "how-to"
treatises on playing the recorder, on improvising counterpoint, on proper
etiquette, etc... tend to be written by authors who wish to leave their
mark or win acclaim.
2) Most often the accounts we DO have that are more believable (e.g., a
letter from Shropshire describing oddities in the style of ECD that was
published in the EFDSS journal sticks out in my mind) are written by
outsiders or travellers who viewed the activities as a curiosity and
present a very biased perspective through the eyes of a stranger to the
genre.
3) I am convinced that ECD was far more dialectic throughout history than
it is in our modern society (with our far more cosmopolitan tendencies).
Therefore most detailed descriptions of actual country dancing incorporate
dialectic anomalies and if interpreted as generalities can lead to some
very distorted conclusions. It would be as if I were to claim to be
instructing Swedish dance when 90% of my experience in Sweden was in a 3
village radius. (I am awfully careful to at least qualify my instructions
as being derived from Western Dalarna and anyone who has experience with
Swedish dancing in a more general way will tell you that my style points
are very peculiar).

Fortunately we have many more resources than those you mentioned. The
greatest of these are the intuitions of musicians and dancers. The
resources you mentioned are only meaningful if combined with a heavy dose
of sensitivity to what the music says about the choreography and what the
choreography says about the music. (I believe that Cecil Sharp would
probably agree with me on this since he seemed to rely on a fair amount of
intuition himself).

All the rest of what you say about the "deadening effect" and the
unfortunate shift from the inspiration of C# in the mid-70s are as you say
- "IMHO." I suspect that my opinions are the opposite of yours on some of
those points.
One thing is certain - my love of the Playford Dances arose in the mid '70s
exactly BECAUSE I was fortunate enough to meet up with a number of
individuals who were brave enough to challenge the dogma of the previous 70
years. Along with most of us contradancers, I had spent several years
detesting ECD as it had been evolving from the beginning of the 20th
century. We groaned when a contra caller inserted ECD in the night's
repertoire, and there was very little overlap between the contra-goers and
the EC dancers. Since the early '80s, I have been leading evenings of
combined ECD/Contra on a regular basis and for the most part they do not
draw separate clientele, but have served to broaden the tastes of those who
felt they preferred one over the other. This is not what I would call
"graying or slowing" but rather a broadening of the dancer base.

So there's MY soapbox!
Cheers,
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:23:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:31:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: mab-AT-tgis.co.uk
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:59:07 -0800 (PST), Tom Vincent
<tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com> wrote:
> Other good ECD for a strip club:
> 
> - Gathering Peascods
> - Johney Cock Thy Beaver
> - Red and All Red
> - The Pleasures of the Town
> - The Lasses of Portsmouth
> - A School for Scandal
> - Once a Night
> - Sally in Our Alley
> - Kit Cat Club
> - Juice of Barly
> - The Old Batchelor
> - Man was for Woman Made
> - Measured Obsession
> - Cold and Raw
> - The Fit's Come on me Now
> - Hey Boys, Up go We
> - Scotch Measure
> - Marriage Hater
> - Hey Ho for my Honey
> - The Belles of New York
> - Lady's Breast Knot
> - Soldier's Joy
> - Drive the Cold Winter Away
> - Up Tails All
> 
> --- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
>> In a message dated 1/10/2004 1:04:04 PM Eastern
>> Standard Time, 
>> mjoconor-AT-EROLS.COM writes:
>> > I don't know where Pat Shaw got the name, but when
>> I was in Atlanta in
>> > September for the ECD workshop weekend, I passed a
>> strip club called "Bare
>> > Necessities" on my way to and from the church
>> where the workshop and
>> dances
>> > were held!
>> How about

Green Stockings
Parson Upon Dorothy (Gay strip club, Dorothy is C17 slang for homosexual)
Joans Placket (Placket was C17 slang for a prostitute)
Night Piece
Bobbing Joe
Woodycock
Fain I would
Passionate Lover (alternative title for Lavena)
Petticoat Wag
Cuckolds All Arow
Lady Lie Near Me
Under and Over
What You Please
Lady in the Dark
Sweet Kate
Catching of Fleas
Ladies Delight
Hey Boys Up Go We
All Together One After Another]
As Quick As You Please
Black Mary's Hole
Bonny Lass
Fickle Polly
Boys and Girls Come Out to Play
Bump Her Belly
Maidens Blush
Harlequin in the Mud (Nude wrestling?)
Wanton Bess
Cock and Bull
Complete Willy
Devil in the Bush

That's probably more than enough for now, but I'm only 1/3 of the way
through the Playford titles!

Michael Barraclough
http://www.michaelbarraclough.com

>> Were they performing to ECD music?
>> Perhaps Scottish:  "The Silver Tassie"
>> 
>> -Deborah
>> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Tom Vincent
> 
> "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
> -- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the 
> +Pentagon refuses 
> +to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 
> 
> http://www.deanforamerica.com
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:58:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:58:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Next year NOMAD dates
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040112195813.34837.qmail-AT-web13608.mail.yahoo.com>
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The NOMAD Organizing Committee is now reviewing potential dates for
next fall.  Would those of you knowing about geographically near
events taking place in October or November please let me know.  Reply
on-list if events would be of interest to the rest of the group,
otherwise private response.

Thanks.

=====
It is in the nature of tyranny to deride the will of the people as the voice of the mob, and to denounce the cry for freedom as the roar of anarchy.
 --William Safire,  1989

__________________________________
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Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:04:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:34:53 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fw: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040112.153457.-289475.1.gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:21:05 -0500 Campbell Kaynor
<Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM> writes:
> 
> Despite the fact I'm sure it will be viewed as contentious...

Not contentious to me!  We all learn by grappling with these issues and
with differing perspectives.

Actually, I think we are in agreement on some basic issues; differences
are on the surface and arise from some misinformation and
misinterpretation, viz:


>"...and we have some pretty detailed choreographies and descriptions 
> of Baroque dance."
> 
> Yes, but 99.9% of it having to do with the social dance of the 
> elite.

Not so.  The bulk of the documentation concerns theatrical dance; there
is precious little on the social dance (aside from Playford's maddeningly
incomplete aides memoires).  The biggest lacunae are in descriptions of
the actual steps used in the social dance, of which we know little.

More importantly, the dances I think we're all talking about (Childgrove,
Juice of Barley, Prince William, etc., etc.) WERE the social dance of the
elite!  You don't think the villagers out in the provinces were doing
those dances (let alone Siege of Limerick or Argeers), do you?
> 
> "The arrangements (harmonies, counterpoint, written-out 
> ornamentation, even orchestrations) and the steps match each other, but
they don't match the way we dance "Playford" or "historical-style"
country dances now."
> 
> I presume you are speaking of the "we" = CDS/CDSS/EFDSS ECD? 
> Hopefully there is some healthy variety in the field!

No, I'm speaking about all 21st century "Playford" or "historical" ECD
done as social or folk dance (i.e. everyone but the Baroque dance
companies and others attempting actual recreations)..  I'd be absolutely
amazed if you or any of the groups you lead dance in anything resembling
the style that the tunes and arrangements were written for-- a "social
elite" that spent considerable time at dancing lessons learning the
proper style.
> 
> "Presumably, anyone attempting to reproduce 17th century style is 
> working from the available evidence, which means the written
arrangements 
> and choreographies that have survived."
> 
> There are some among us who distrust the limited resources that 
> have survived through time and feel that interpretations based upon
such
> evidence are GUARANTEED to be far from the standard practices. From 
> those resources, we gain hints of what to look for, but:
> 1) the anecdotes are as likely to describe what a particular writer 
> felt
> "ought" to be the standard as they are to be representative. For 
> example,
> if there is an editorial in a newspaper from colonial America 
> stating that
> it is wrong to dance on Sundays, I believe that it is more likely 
> that
> dancing was happening on Sundays than that it was not. Even the 
> "how-to"
> treatises on playing the recorder, on improvising counterpoint, on 
> proper
> etiquette, etc... tend to be written by authors who wish to leave 
> their
> mark or win acclaim.

Boy, this is thin ice!  There's some truth to what you say, but I'm not
ready to throw out lots of careful and honest contemporary documentation.
 I am very familiar with the recorder treatises you mention, and there is
often great pains taken to distinguish between description, prescription,
and the ideal.  The extensive documentation of ECD by Andre Lorain,
dispatched from France in the late 1680's, suffers from the sins you
mention, but others seem straightforward enough.

> ...
> 3) I am convinced that ECD was far more dialectic throughout history 
> than it is in our modern society (with our far more cosmopolitan 
> tendencies)...

What do you mean by "dialectic" in this context?  

> ...Fortunately we have many more resources than those you mentioned. 
> The greatest of these are the intuitions of musicians and dancers. 
> THe resources you mentioned are only meaningful if combined with a
heavy 
> dose of sensitivity to what the music says about the choreography and 
> what the choreography says about the music. (I believe that Cecil Sharp

> would probably agree with me on this since he seemed to rely on a fair 
> amount of intuition himself).

Exactly what I'm trying to say.  Let the intuitions of musicians and
dancers, enjoying this material NOW, guide what we do.  Attempts to
re-create "authentic" 17th/18th-century style, which is where this thread
started, cause problems!  And let's not kid ourselves into thinking that
the intuitions of 21st century musicians and dancers had much in common
with the intuitions of 17th century musicians and dancers.  OTOH, running
on pure intuition, with no knowledge of the roots of this material, will
get one into equally dangerous waters.
> 
> All the rest of what you say about the "deadening effect" and the
> unfortunate shift from the inspiration of C# in the mid-70s are as 
> you say - "IMHO." I suspect that my opinions are the opposite of yours
on 
> some of those points.

Actually, I think we agree.  I didn't disparage all challenges to the C.
Sharp/EFDSS/CDSS "canon," many of which did occur in the 1970's, and
which opened new vistas for us (including opportunities to write new
dances in the genre, or that "allowed" Dudley Laufman to include ECD at
his contra dance evenings. Another challenge which I think was very
healthy was the non-EFDSS/CDSS dancing done at the Renaissance Faires in
CA and later elsewhere.  When I first participated in a Ren Faire in CA
in 1972, the country dancing looked NOTHING like what I had learned in
CDSS circles, but it was great, and fun to do, and right for the
setting.)  My critical comments were directed solely at the efforts at
"historical accuracy."

> ...Since the early '80s, I have been leading evenings of combined
ECD/Contra on a regular basis and for the most part they do not draw
separate clientele, but have served to broaden the tastes of those who
felt they preferred one over the other. This is not what I would call
"graying or slowing" but rather a broadening of the dancer base.

This is what I and I think many others would like to see more of!  And
I'd bet that you're not attracting all those dancers with studied
attempts to re-create 17th century dance style!!
> 
> So there's MY soapbox!

Fair enough... thanks!

Gene
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Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:15:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:16:56 -0800
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Next year NOMAD dates
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040112131415.029b8cb0-AT-popserver.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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California's not geographically near, but I'm MCing the BACDS Fall Ball on 
November 20, 2004, and I hope that won't conflict with NOMAD, because I 
_love_ calling at NOMAD!
Frequently flying,
Sharon


At 11:58 AM 1/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>The NOMAD Organizing Committee is now reviewing potential dates for
>next fall.  Would those of you knowing about geographically near
>events taking place in October or November please let me know.  Reply
>on-list if events would be of interest to the rest of the group,
>otherwise private response.
>
>Thanks.
>
>=====
>It is in the nature of tyranny to deride the will of the people as the 
>voice of the mob, and to denounce the cry for freedom as the roar of anarchy.
>  --William Safire,  1989
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
>http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:37:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:37:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Terence Gaffney <gaff-AT-neu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Next year NOMAD dates
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.03.10401121635001.6909-100000-AT-research.neu.edu>
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Here in Boston we are hoping to have our "Fall Favorites" dance on
Saturday October 30. The dance features all four members of "Bare
Necessities"--this is the dance where you get to vote on the program if
you register in advance.  
Best,
 Terry


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:44:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:44:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Next year NOMAD dates
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401121636210.13818-AT-phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
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References: <20040112195813.34837.qmail-AT-web13608.mail.yahoo.com>

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Barbara Ruth wrote:

> The NOMAD Organizing Committee is now reviewing potential dates for
> next fall.  Would those of you knowing about geographically near
> events taking place in October or November please let me know.  Reply
> on-list if events would be of interest to the rest of the group,
> otherwise private response.

I selfishly hope that NOMAD will avoid the weekends of...

October 30-31 (Rum & Onions will be Saturday Oct 30 - costumed contra
dancing in Princeton, NJ, with a 35-piece band - no ECD content)

and

November 12-14 (Head for the Hills, the Princeton Country Dancers'
friendly and affordable weekend in the Poconos, *includes ECD* as well
as contra & various other sorts of dance, music, song, revelry...)

...since I greatly enjoyed attending NOMAD for the first time in 2003,
when it conflicted with neither of the above!

Cheers,

Susie Lorand
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:00:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:58:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Whence came
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040112.135838.10660.1794819-AT-webmail04.lax.untd.com>
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:31:48 +0000 (GMT) mab-AT-TGIS.CO.UK writes:
> 
> 
> 
> At Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:59:07 -0800 (PST), Tom Vincent
> <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Other good ECD for a strip club:
> > 
> > - Gathering Peascods
> > - Johney Cock Thy Beaver
> > - Red and All Red
> > - The Pleasures of the Town
> > - The Lasses of Portsmouth
> > - A School for Scandal
> > - Once a Night
> > - Sally in Our Alley
> > - Kit Cat Club
> > - Juice of Barly
> > - The Old Batchelor
> > - Man was for Woman Made
> > - Measured Obsession
> > - Cold and Raw
> > - The Fit's Come on me Now
> > - Hey Boys, Up go We
> > - Scotch Measure
> > - Marriage Hater
> > - Hey Ho for my Honey
> > - The Belles of New York
> > - Lady's Breast Knot
> > - Soldier's Joy
> > - Drive the Cold Winter Away
> > - Up Tails All
> 
> Green Stockings
> Parson Upon Dorothy (Gay strip club, Dorothy is C17 slang for 
> homosexual)
> Joans Placket (Placket was C17 slang for a prostitute)
> Night Piece
> Bobbing Joe
> Woodycock
> Fain I would
> Passionate Lover (alternative title for Lavena)
> Petticoat Wag
> Cuckolds All Arow
> Lady Lie Near Me
> Under and Over
> What You Please
> Lady in the Dark
> Sweet Kate
> Catching of Fleas
> Ladies Delight
> Hey Boys Up Go We
> All Together One After Another]
> As Quick As You Please
> Black Mary's Hole
> Bonny Lass
> Fickle Polly
> Boys and Girls Come Out to Play
> Bump Her Belly
> Maidens Blush
> Harlequin in the Mud (Nude wrestling?)
> Wanton Bess
> Cock and Bull
> Complete Willy
> Devil in the Bush
> 
> That's probably more than enough for now, but I'm only 1/3 of the 
> way
> through the Playford titles!

Here's some more:

How Shall I Keep My Maidenhead
An Old Man is a Bed Full of Bones

Dawn Culbertson (Baltimore, MD)

________________________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:19:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:19:04 -0500
From: Susan <susan-AT-generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Regency Dance Workshops Series - Connecticut
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: susan-AT-generalist.org
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I haven't decided if Gene is meaning to be disapproving of what
I'm doing or not but it's not going to stop me.  :)

I will thus announce (only once) a new weekly series of
Regency dances - yes, weekly - in New Haven, Connecticut.
Six Mondays, starting, um, tonight (yes this is late; computer
trouble).  Dates are January 12, 19, 26 and February 2, 9, 16.
7:15-9:15.  $9 per person or $42 for the whole series.  The
last will be a brief review of what's been learned in the first
five followed by social Regency dancing.  This is intended as
an opportunity to really work on the steps and figures needed 
to dance early 19th-century country dances, quadrilles, reels,
and waltzes.  The technique for these is best learned over
time with regular practice.  To the best of my knowledge, a
series like this has not been tried in the northeastern U.S. 
before; don't know about elsewhere.

More information may be found at:

http://www.elegantarts.org/ctclasses.html

Dances, as usual, are researched and taught by yours truly; more
information about this can be found on our webpage,

http://www.elegantarts.org

Happy New years!

Susan
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:28:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:27:59 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFBF773F70.DF62DF70-ON85256E19.00829BE6-85256E1A.000801D7-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Dear Gene,
I think it is as you say - that we agree more than disagree. Perhaps I rely
more on intuition (shaped by studying cultural aesthetics) than actual
direct notations, in compiling my vision of what the earlier ECD might have
looked like, but I think we concur that both of these are important.

The theatrical dance is yet another genre in my view. It would be like
learning dancing from Revels or River Dance.
My main point is that nobody I know of writes "I went to the store for a
loaf of bread today" in their journal. Rather they write about the
note-worthy and perhaps extraordinary events of their day. If you tried to
construct a view of today's life from a few journals it would probably be
quite funny. The same is true of the written record of dance - even of
today's contemporary trends (and you would think that we might know better,
considering how we rue the paucity of reliable sources from history).

My only point about
> "The arrangements (harmonies, counterpoint, written-out
> ornamentation, even orchestrations) and the steps match each other, but
they don't match the way we dance "Playford" or "historical-style"
country dances now."
is that you make it sound as though there is one way that we dance Playford
now. Amongst the (at least dozens of) styles currently being danced in
social settings, surely some of them match the baroque arrangements fairly
well at times, even when they are not trying to emulate historical dancing.

On the point about many of the dances that are clearly written for an elite
clientele, you are correct - I make no attempt to get my "gang of peasants"
to dance them in an authetic aristocratic style. Instead we muddle through
(as a 17th century villager might have, if they encountered one of these at
the local shin-dig), in small ways feeling the grandeur of a more elegant
lifestyle and in large ways feeling the absence of a lifetime of training
in posture and movement. And of course we make use of the greater range of
movement our clothing allows so long as it fits the musical context (again
- something I'm sure villagers of yesteryear would have done).

I am not ready to "throw out lots of careful and honest contemporary
documentation" either. What I tried to convey is that this documentation
gives us clues, lets us know what to look for, but should not be used as
the foundation on which we build our vision of what was done because there
is no chance that it will be other than distorted. By combining it with
everything else we know and by listening to trained intuitions, then there
IS a chance that we might strike closer to the mark.

What I meant by dialectic is that this example of a letter from Shropshire
recounts in some detail the figures as done at a local social dance. The
same figures would likely have been done quite differently in other places
around the countryside. If one wishes to have a sense of the contemporary
style, one needs to have a sense of the breadth of stylistic variation and
not rely on accounts that document a local variant.

You say - "Let the intuitions of musicians and
dancers, enjoying this material NOW, guide what we do.  Attempts to
re-create "authentic" 17th/18th-century style, which is where this thread
started, cause problems!"
The thread started with a query from David Brown:
"... I have had the opportunity to try a bit of arranging, adding a 2nd
part and
active bass part to some of the dance tunes. I've been trying to write
these
parts in the style of the late Baroque and early Classical period.
I was wondering is anyone else has been doing this sort of thing? ..."
I did not interpret this to mean "authentic" but rather baroque/classical
s.l., employing the common principles of music composition and
improvisation that shaped the idioms of that era in our construction of
harmony lines today. I may have old-fashioned tastes, but I believe (as I
think David does) that even today it is possible to enjoy baroque music, to
feel compelled to move in relation to that music, and to savor even the
17th century dances themselves when done to instrumentation and styles that
are more baroque sounding than the Victorian music of Sharp and the (what
sounds to me like romantic-period-influenced) music of many of the hot ECD
bands of today.

Right now I am writing some dances to music by Telemann. These dances are
NOT intended for the social elite and they ARE intended to be enjoyed by
social dancers of all experience levels, drawing upon the figures and
styles that the people who come to my dances favor. Although I am not
qualified to play these melodies in an authentic baroque style (if anyone
is), I have no intention of playing them in the style that many other
country dance bands of our day employ! THAT would not suit the choreography
either.

Finally, I don't know if I agree that intuitions over the centuries are
miles apart. It seems to me that most things in life that we set about to
create or invent are not unique but hundreds of others in similar
circumstances have had the same inspiration. I'll stop because it would
take another chapter to explain what I'm getting at on this topic!!

Thanks for absorbing my comments so positively!
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:30:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:58:56 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Regency Dance Workshops Series - Connecticut
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040112.205903.-289475.3.gmurrow-AT-juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:19:04 -0500 Susan <susan-AT-GENERALIST.ORG> writes:
> 
> I haven't decided if Gene is meaning to be disapproving of what
> I'm doing or not but it's not going to stop me.  :)

Uh-oh, now I'm in trouble...  I do not want to be in the position of
approving or disapproving anything; this is supposed to be fun!!

As it happens, I totally approve of what you do (and have participated,
as you know), because you are teaching dancing in historical style, based
on your own very considerable research and experience.  And your classes
do a lot of dancing in that style, not merely "marking" the patterns.  My
objection, going w-a-a-y back to the original posting on this thread, was
expending effort on 17th/18th-century technique/style of playing music
for ordinary ECD (MECD, that is) events.   What we should do is combine
those musicians who want to learn or experiment with that style with your
dancers.  You need the live music, they need to see dancers doing all
that fancy stepping, to see how the Baroque style and aesthetic fits
neatly with the steps!  Somebody should organize a weekend...

Gene  
> 
> I will thus announce (only once) a new weekly series of
> Regency dances - yes, weekly - in New Haven, Connecticut.
> Six Mondays, starting, um, tonight (yes this is late; computer
> trouble).  Dates are January 12, 19, 26 and February 2, 9, 16.
> 7:15-9:15.  $9 per person or $42 for the whole series.  The
> last will be a brief review of what's been learned in the first
> five followed by social Regency dancing.  This is intended as
> an opportunity to really work on the steps and figures needed 
> to dance early 19th-century country dances, quadrilles, reels,
> and waltzes.  The technique for these is best learned over
> time with regular practice.  To the best of my knowledge, a
> series like this has not been tried in the northeastern U.S. 
> before; don't know about elsewhere.
> 
> More information may be found at:
> 
> http://www.elegantarts.org/ctclasses.html
> 
> Dances, as usual, are researched and taught by yours truly; more
> information about this can be found on our webpage,
> 
> http://www.elegantarts.org
> 
> Happy New years!
> 
> Susan
> 
> 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>         - "Reply" button
destination
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:40:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:38:24 -0500
From: Carl Friedman <carlfriedman-AT-alumni.williams.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: NOMAD scheduling conflicts
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <529703BE-4582-11D8-AD83-000393C225F4-AT-alumni.williams.edu>
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Hi Barbara,

The Baltimore Playford Ball is tentatively scheduled for Saturday, 
October 16..

Carl

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:05:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:35:32 -0500
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Pat Shaw permission
To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040113.040256.-1094513.5.solweber-AT-juno.com>
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Hi    Someone asked me how to get permission to use a Pat Shaw
round (Duchess at Tea) in their upcoming Orff music book.  In the
past I got permission for my own book but no longer have the 
contacts.  Could someone give  me that info?  I'll pass it along.
Thanks.

Sol


Sol "Roundman" Weber  --- "So many rounds, so little time"
25-14  37 St,  Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
& misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; web: roundz.tripod.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:09:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:09:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Regency Dance Workshops Series - Connecticut
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040113190904.7566.qmail-AT-web13603.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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And having just attended the first session of this series, as well as
the recent Regency Assembly that Susan organized, I will add my
endorsement as well, and recommend that anyone within accessible
distance and at all interested in this era, or in learning more about
the roots of our contemporary ECD, should come.  Susan is an
excellent teacher and learning this stepping is fun. It will make you
a better dancer. Furthermore, it will open up a whole new world of
information about what people were doing in social dance during the
regency period, which will make it come more alive.  Just what
exactly were those Bennett sisters doing in the drawing room during
those evenings at home, and why was Lizzy so quick to turn down Mr.
Darcy's suggestion of doing a Scotch reel?  Come and learn.


--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-juno.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:19:04 -0500 Susan <susan-AT-GENERALIST.ORG>
> writes:
> > 
> > I haven't decided if Gene is meaning to be disapproving of what
> > I'm doing or not but it's not going to stop me.  :)
> 
> As it happens, I totally approve of what you do (and have
> participated, as you know), because you are teaching dancing in 
> historical style, based
> on your own very considerable research and experience.  


> > I will thus announce (only once) a new weekly series of
> > Regency dances - yes, weekly - in New Haven, Connecticut.
> > Six Mondays, starting, um, tonight (yes this is late; computer
> > trouble).  Dates are January 12, 19, 26 and February 2, 9, 16.
> > 7:15-9:15.  $9 per person or $42 for the whole series.  > > More
information may be found at:
> > 
> > http://www.elegantarts.org/ctclasses.html
> > 
> > Dances, as usual, are researched and taught by yours truly; more
> > information about this can be found on our webpage,
> > 
> > http://www.elegantarts.org
> > 


=====
It is in the nature of tyranny to deride the will of the people as the voice of the mob, and to denounce the cry for freedom as the roar of anarchy.
 --William Safire,  1989

__________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:18:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:17:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Shoe Thoughts
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040113191741.9177.qmail-AT-web13609.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 1/5/2004 3:05:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> barbararuth-AT-ROCKETMAIL.COM writes:
> If you need something more robust to stand
> > up to urban streets, maybe a heavier duty cap would do the job.
> > 
> > Or rubbers. I like that idea!
> 
> Aha - a great marketing campaign: "Safe Shoes!"
> Oh yah-- "Safe Steps"


How about "Safe Sox."


=====
It is in the nature of tyranny to deride the will of the people as the voice of the mob, and to denounce the cry for freedom as the roar of anarchy.
 --William Safire,  1989

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:43:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:42:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <21.394db5d1.2d35a42d-AT-aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6m8jXiXCqe/fXCsDC7yddQ)"


--Boundary_(ID_6m8jXiXCqe/fXCsDC7yddQ)
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In a message dated 1/12/2004 8:39:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM writes:
Right now I am writing some dances to music by Telemann. These dances are
NOT intended for the social elite and they ARE intended to be enjoyed by
social dancers of all experience levels, drawing upon the figures and
styles that the people who come to my dances favor. Although I am not
qualified to play these melodies in an authentic baroque style (if anyone
is), I have no intention of playing them in the style that many other
country dance bands of our day employ! THAT would not suit the choreography
either.
Hi Cammy,

I'm curious about just which Telemann compositions you are using since I play 
a good deal of Telemann on a regular basis (recorder/s, plus cello and 
harpsichord.)

I'd be very interested to learn what you come up with. 

It's often a hoot to stumble across a movement or piece that has long been 
familiar as an English Country Dance.  (Some of us have come to our involvement 
in Early Music by way of dance  :+)

Cheer,
Deborah

--Boundary_(ID_6m8jXiXCqe/fXCsDC7yddQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV>

<DIV>In a message dated 1/12/2004 8:39:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>Right now I am writing some dances to music by Telemann. These dances are<BR>NOT intended for the social elite and they ARE intended to be enjoyed by<BR>social dancers of all experience levels, drawing upon the figures and<BR>styles that the people who come to my dances favor. Although I am not<BR>qualified to play these melodies in an authentic baroque style (if anyone<BR>is), I have no intention of playing them in the style that many other<BR>country dance bands of our day employ! THAT would not suit the choreography<BR>either.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Cammy,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I'm curious about just which Telemann compositions you are using since I play a good deal of Telemann on a regular basis (recorder/s, plus cello and harpsichord.)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I'd be very interested to learn what you come up with.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It's often a hoot to stumble across a movement or piece that has long been familiar as an English Country Dance.&nbsp; (Some of us have come to our involvement in Early Music by way of dance&nbsp; :+)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheer,</DIV>
<DIV>Deborah</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_6m8jXiXCqe/fXCsDC7yddQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:21:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:21:29 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-heywood.nl>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Pat Shaw permission
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <COEDLPPOGOEMEHCDMDFLEEHNCHAA.antony-AT-heywood.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Sol Weber wrote:

Hi    Someone asked me how to get permission to use a Pat Shaw
round (Duchess at Tea) in their upcoming Orff music book.  In the
past I got permission for my own book but no longer have the 
contacts.  Could someone give  me that info?  I'll pass it along.

Permission to publish a Pat Shaw composition needs to be sought from:
Christopher Shuldham-Shaw
Holly Cottage
Wiggaton
Ottery St Mary
Devon
U.K. EX11 1PY
Tel.: +44 1404 814931

Antony Heywood
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:53:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:53:02 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFA9591F0D.E9473E26-ON85256E1A.007A7170-85256E1A.007DA832-AT-biogenidec.com>
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I am at work so I can't give you the details right away, but I'll get them
to you eventually. I have a collection of Telemann minuets etc... that are
all or mostly in 3/4 (alto and continuo), many of which seem to be begging
for dance accompaniment. There are several likely suspects in a several
other collections I have (not all Telemann) and I have recently been
playing around with several movements of the Suite in Am. If I decide to
actually complete any of these, I will probably rework the Suite for a
small ensemble as an orchestra would be a little unwieldy at the usual
dance hall.
I have also been chomping on some of the Fitzwilliam Virginal book and
other early English stuff.

By the way, in the absence of an orchestra for the suite, I usually play
the 1st Violin melody when the recorder has long stretches of rests and the
movement that springs to mind right now is one such. (I am typing this off
the top of my head so don't hold me to it. On Alto, I modify the tune
slightly to get around the low Es). I'll send the Pdf to you off-list.
CK


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:55:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:55:31 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
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Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:15:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:15:07 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 1/12/2004 8:27:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM writes:

> I have no intention of playing them in the style that many other
> country dance bands of our day employ! THAT would not suit 
> the choreography
> either.

Umm, and what is that?  Is there a fixed musical country dance band performance style?  If so, can you describe it?  Can anyone?  What musical style would suit the choreography of these dances that you've set to Teleman?  You don't feel "qualified" to perform in an "authentic Baroque style" (whatever that is) yet you don't want it played in modern "country dance band style" (which is...?).  What instruments do you feel would be appropriate?  What do you intend to tell your musicians about how you want the music played?  I'm not being snooty or elitist.  I'm really curious. 

BTW, I would be willing to bet that the harpsichord was used extremely infrequently, if at all, to accompany dances in the 17th and 18th C.  Not in a chamber ensemble.  Possibly as continue in a larger ensemble.  First, it doesn't make enough noise to carry.  Second, it's not portable.  Finally, from hacking out tunes so I can learn the dances, most of the Playford melodies are not idiomatic for the keyboard -- they don't finger well at all.  In my opinion they are mostly fiddle tunes -- or for wind instrument.  

Now you realize, this is purely my opinion, based on some empirical experience and other accumulated knowledge.  I could be convinced otherwise (depending on who was doing the convincing).  I am not trying to stamp out anyone else's creativity or musical exploration.  I've heard the Broadside Band, and I think they're great.  I'm dubious as to whether such a group would have existed for dances in Playford time.  But I'm not losing sleep over it.

Suzanne

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:17:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:17:27 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Telemann
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF7619C6EF.A26B77A2-ON85256E1A.007F30D9-85256E1A.007FE44A-AT-biogenidec.com>
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My Telemann post was meant for Deborah - not list at large - sorry.

I agree with Suzanne about the breadth of potentially acceptable
interpretations of baroque melodies. That is part of why I think one should
not characterize a baroque style as unsuitable for today's dancers. The
other part being the variety that exists in the styles of dancing prevalent
today. It seems to me that one would have to select a fairly narrow
interpretation of "baroque music" and an equally narrow sample of how
today's dancers like to dance before one could make that generalization.

CK

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:06:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:09:14 -0500
From: Stephanie Smith <dancesmith-AT-verizon.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: versions of Volpony
To: ECD-List <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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I'm going to be teaching Volpony at this week's Glen Echo, MD dance.  
I've discovered several different versions of the dance, including 
listmember Nicolas Broadbridge's version as well as Tom Cook's and 
Christine Helwig's.  I would be interested to hear from those who teach 
it or who have danced it if you have a version preference and why.  I 
remember dancing it at Pinewoods with Gene Murrow teaching, but do not 
remember the version.

All commentary welcome!

On another subject, the Washington Spring Ball  (May 15, 2004) program 
will include Victor Skowronski's "Companions."  He has been visiting our 
dance periodically while being in the area for his job, and I taught the 
dance in September.  Our local dancers really like it.  We obtained 
chords for the music from Jacqueline Schwab, and the comments about the 
dance on the list have been very helpful.

Thanks.

Stephanie Smith
Bethesda, MD


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:12:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:12:27 -0500
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: versions of Volpony
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BC2A0FBB.4891%joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
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> I've discovered several different versions of the dance, including
> listmember Nicolas Broadbridge's version as well as Tom Cook's and
> Christine Helwig's.

To add to your collection, Philippe Callens included his interpretation of
Volpony in his book of original and interpreted dances entitled "Belgian
Boutades."  Check it out if you can.

Volpony is a lovely minuet tune, one of many treasures from Henry Purcell.

Joyce Crouch
Amherst MA USA


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:24:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:24:14 -0500
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Next year NOMAD dates
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BC2A127E.4892%joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
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October 16-17, 2004, will be a special weekend of ECD in Amherst MA, with
Scott Higgs leading a Saturday evening dance open to all and a Sunday
afternoon Advanced Dance for experienced dancers who are completely familiar
with basic ECD figures.

In November 2004, the Brattleboro (VT) Playford Ball will be on Saturday,
Nov 20.

Good luck avoiding all the geographically-near conflicts, and thanks for
checking.  I hope to be at NOMAD again next year.

Joyce Crouch
Amherst MA USA



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:39:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:39:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: versions of Volpony
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040114023900.30322.qmail-AT-web20602.mail.yahoo.com>
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Stephanie:
I have a new interpretation of Volpony, with which I
am quite happy. 
I have not published it as yet, but if you are
attending the upcoming New Haven Ball, we will be
dancing it there; or you can send to me for a copy.
Best,
Graham

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:00:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:58:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040113.215935.10660.1827449-AT-webmail04.lax.untd.com>
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On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:42:37 -0500 (EST) Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM writes:
> In a message dated 1/12/2004 8:39:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM writes:
> Hi Cammy,
> 
> I'm curious about just which Telemann compositions you are using 
> since I play 
> a good deal of Telemann on a regular basis (recorder/s, plus cello 
> and 
> harpsichord.)
> 
> I'd be very interested to learn what you come up with. 

I've loved Telemann's music for years and have played & studied his recorder sonatas as well. A lof of his stuff seems very danceable, yet I've never heard of anyone setting any English dance to his music. So I'm curious too.

Dawn Culbertson
Baltimore, MD


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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:13:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:13:05 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <23BA044C.115DF97D.0078596C-AT-aol.com>
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Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc., maybe they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque composers.  There's no reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of phrase seemed suitable or could be adapted in some way.

Suzanne


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:32:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:32:16 -0800
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: More - arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <40057D20.9000200-AT-sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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SFORDNYC-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc., maybe they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque composers.  There's no reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of phrase seemed suitable or could be adapted in some way.

Someone should write a canon-type dance, a la John Tallis's Canon, to one 
of the Kanonische Sonaten.  Those are big fun to play.

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:26:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:25:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Telemann stripped
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <171.289f06b9.2d36e395-AT-aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_wRv8oCxhaAMP8IFgrcP9vg)"


--Boundary_(ID_wRv8oCxhaAMP8IFgrcP9vg)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 1/14/2004 12:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jberger-AT-SBCGLOBAL.NET writes:
> Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc., maybe 
they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque composers.  There's no 
reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of phrase seemed 
suitable or could be adapted in some way.

Someone should write a canon-type dance, a la John Tallis's Canon, to one 
of the Kanonische Sonaten.  Those are big fun to play.
Great fun, indeed.  I'm thinking those might be a bit overwhelming for a 
dance number, though there are plenty of other Telemann pieces/movements that 
would be fine.  Stripped down Telemann without all the [superfluous for ECD] 
ornamentation, that is.  Bare essentials, if not necessities.

If we are promoting here, I'd like to offer up Marin Marais for 
consideration-- especially pieces from his Suite in g minor-- which, in fact, is full of 
dance-entitled movements.

Cheer,
Deborah

--Boundary_(ID_wRv8oCxhaAMP8IFgrcP9vg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/14/2004 12:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jberger-AT-SBCGLOBAL.NET writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>&gt; Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc., maybe they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque composers.&nbsp; There's no reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of phrase seemed suitable or could be adapted in some way.<BR><BR>Someone should write a canon-type dance, a la John Tallis's Canon, to one <BR>of the Kanonische Sonaten.&nbsp; Those are big fun to play.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Great fun, indeed.&nbsp; I'm thinking those might be a bit overwhelming for a dance number, though there are plenty of other Telemann pieces/movements&nbsp;that would be fine.&nbsp; Stripped down Telemann without all the [superfluous for ECD] ornamentation, that is.&nbsp; Bare essentials, if not necessities.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If we are&nbsp;promoting&nbsp;here, I'd like to&nbsp;offer up&nbsp;Marin Marais for consideration-- especially pieces from his Suite in g minor-- which, in fact, is full of&nbsp;dance-entitled movements.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheer,</DIV>
<DIV>Deborah</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_wRv8oCxhaAMP8IFgrcP9vg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:45:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:44:37 -0800
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Telemann stripped
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <40058E15.6010705-AT-sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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References: <171.289f06b9.2d36e395-AT-aol.com>



Dfhart24-AT-aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/14/2004 12:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> jberger-AT-SBCGLOBAL.NET writes:
> 
>      > Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel,
>     etc., maybe they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque
>     composers.  There's no reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the
>     melody and length of phrase seemed suitable or could be adapted in
>     some way.
> 
>     Someone should write a canon-type dance, a la John Tallis's Canon,
>     to one
>     of the Kanonische Sonaten.  Those are big fun to play.
> 
> Great fun, indeed.  I'm thinking those might be a bit overwhelming for a 
> dance number, though there are plenty of other Telemann 
> pieces/movements that would be fine. 

I think it could work.  Not an entire movement, of course, any more than 
"Handel With Care" is done to the entire movement from "Water Music."  But 
I could certainly see adapting a couple of passages for dancing.

If anyone would like to have a shot at writing one of these canonic dances 
(admittedly a pretty daunting task), I'd be glad to volunteer to try doing 
an appropriate musical arrangement.

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:54:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:59:46 +0100
From: Simone Verheyen <simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Telemann stripped
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Hi everybody,

someone wrote :
  > Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc.,
maybe they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque composers.
There's no reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of
phrase seemed suitable or could be adapted in some way.

  This is my [Simone Verheyen] answer.

  Philippe Callens wrote a dance entitled "Alice".  It's set to "Siciliano"
from Concerto for oboe d'amore and string orchestra in A major, by Georg
Philipp Telemann (TWV 51).
  Nice piece of music, nice dance.

  Interested ?  Let me know.

  Simone

  simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be

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<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV><SPAN class=990534719-14012004>Hi everybody,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=990534719-14012004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=990534719-14012004>someone wrote :</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>&gt; Now that 
  choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc., maybe they'll turn 
  their attention to other later Baroque composers.&nbsp; There's no reason why 
  Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of phrase seemed suitable 
  or could be adapted in some way.<BR><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>This is my </SPAN><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>[Simone Verheyen] answer.</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>Philippe Callens wrote a dance entitled 
  "Alice".&nbsp;&nbsp;It's set to "Siciliano" from&nbsp;Concerto for oboe 
  d'amore and string orchestra in A major, by Georg Philipp Telemann (TWV 
  51).</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>Nice piece of music, nice dance.&nbsp; </SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>Interested ?&nbsp; Let me 
  know.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>Simone</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><SPAN 
  class=990534719-14012004>simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:14:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com
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Subject: Re: Telemann stripped
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I've rarely met a Siciliano I didn't like and don't see "Alice" in the 
Phillipe collections I have, so I would be interested to see/play this.  Is this a 
new dance?

Deborah

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<DIV>I've rarely met a Siciliano I didn't like and don't see "Alice" in the Phillipe collections I have, so I would be interested to see/play this.&nbsp; Is this a new dance?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Deborah</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:46:25 PST
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:46:06 -0500
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Telemann stripped
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Deborah and all,

>If we are promoting here, I'd like to offer up Marin Marais for consideration--
especially pieces >from his Suite in g minor-- which, in fact, is full of
dance-entitled movements.

Gary Roodman's 3-cpl longways dance "Kneeland Romp" (in Calculated Figures,
publ 1987) is set to the tune "Le  Basque" by Marais.  (Or is it La? there
seems to be some confusion)  Delightful!

Joyce Crouch
Amherst MA USA


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:37:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:37:17 -0500
From: Stephanie Smith <dancesmith-AT-verizon.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Telemann stripped
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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And we are doing "Alice" tonight at the Glen Echo, MD dance with the honoree present!  It is a lovely and easy dance that works well with people new to ECD.

Stephanie Smith
Bethesda, MD

> From: Simone Verheyen <simoneverheyen-AT-PI.BE>
> Date: 2004/01/14 Wed PM 02:59:46 EST
> To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
> Subject: RE: Telemann stripped
> 
> Hi everybody,
> 
> someone wrote :
>   > Now that choreographers have mined Purcell, O'Carolan, Handel, etc.,
> maybe they'll turn their attention to other later Baroque composers.
> There's no reason why Telemann wouldn't work -- if the melody and length of
> phrase seemed suitable or could be adapted in some way.
> 
>   This is my [Simone Verheyen] answer.
> 
>   Philippe Callens wrote a dance entitled "Alice".  It's set to "Siciliano"
> from Concerto for oboe d'amore and string orchestra in A major, by Georg
> Philipp Telemann (TWV 51).
>   Nice piece of music, nice dance.
> 
>   Interested ?  Let me know.
> 
>   Simone
> 
>   simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be
> 
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:36:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:34:17 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Telemann stripped
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Simone wrote:
Philippe Callens wrote a dance entitled "Alice".  It's set to
"Siciliano" from Concerto for oboe d'amore and string orchestra in A
major, by Georg Philipp Telemann (TWV 51).
Nice piece of music, nice dance.  

***
I just wanted to add that Graham Christian set the music for Philippe. 
Graham reports that he needed to modify the meter & the melody somewhat
for ECD purposes, and notes that, for example, some of Fried's Purcell
tunes are similarly adapted for the dance.

--Deb
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Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:50:52 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:48:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In addition to being a long-time English dancer, I'm also a 78 rpm record collector. Recently, I acquired 3 78s of English country dance tunes (Sharp arrangements) played by a group called the Mayfair Band. They're on the Victor label, and appear to date from the 1920s-30s. The person who sold me the records really didn't have any information about them. Does anyone know anything about the group or when/how the records were made? Any and all input would be appreciated. (The band, by the way, is largely brass and winds--a strange combo for English dance in the States--and are apparently intended for dancing, because they're at good dance tempos and take the correct number of repeats.)

Dawn Culbertson
Baltimore, MD

________________________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:22:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 02:20:05 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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<<In addition to being a long-time English dancer, I'm also a 78 rpm record
collector. Recently, I acquired 3 78s of English country dance tunes (Sharp
arrangements) played by a group called the Mayfair Band. They're on the
Victor label, and appear to date from the 1920s-30s. The person who sold me
the records really didn't have any information about them. Does anyone know
anything about the group or when/how the records were made? Any and all
input would be appreciated. (The band, by the way, is largely brass and
winds--a strange combo for English dance in the States--and are apparently
intended for dancing, because they're at good dance tempos and take the
correct number of repeats.)>>

Hi Dawn:

What are the record numbers? If there are matrix numbers, what are those?

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 02:02:17 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:01:56 +0000
From: Graham Knight <graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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A few years ago Peter Wilde from Oxford wrote a piece in the EFDSS
magazine on 78's and Sharp's involvement in getting them recorded in the
US. Might be worth following up. Sorry no further details as am at work.

Unfortunately, Peter suffered a stroke last year which has left him
slightly debilitated so I probably will not be able to check with him
what else he researched.

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Stamler
Sent: 15 January 2004 08:20
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s

<<In addition to being a long-time English dancer, I'm also a 78 rpm
record
collector. Recently, I acquired 3 78s of English country dance tunes
(Sharp
arrangements) played by a group called the Mayfair Band. They're on the
Victor label, and appear to date from the 1920s-30s. The person who sold
me
the records really didn't have any information about them. Does anyone
know
anything about the group or when/how the records were made? Any and all
input would be appreciated. (The band, by the way, is largely brass and
winds--a strange combo for English dance in the States--and are
apparently
intended for dancing, because they're at good dance tempos and take the
correct number of repeats.)>>

Hi Dawn:

What are the record numbers? If there are matrix numbers, what are
those?

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:43:16 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:39:00 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: English dance 78s & Victor
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Graham noted the articles in EFDSS on Sharp & his recordings, which were made in America, with both Victor and Columbia. The articles are very helpful indeed. The bands were indeed military-type brass bands...I don't think that Peter found out why this instrumentation was used--perhaps they were just available musicians or the studio musicians. Sharp directed the bands, and recorded a large number of tunes, including morris and sword tunes, during two of his trips to the U.S. As far as I recall, they would lay down about 20 tunes a day--of course there was little or no editing or mixing.

I have a copy (somewhere) of the Victor recording booklet produced in 1920 that not only lists the dances, marches, and drills that are found on each recording, but also includes a portrait photo of Sharp as well as of Elizabeth Burchenal, the leading spirit of (international) folk dance in the U.S., along with essays from both of them on the value of folk dance, *plus* photos of dancers--adults and children--and discussions of the successful use of the Victor phonograph in school and recreational settings. Some of the photos are rather funny, as when you see a huge, trumpet-mouthed victrola on a field in front of the school with 200 solemn children lined up in straight rows in front of it, preparing to drill.

If you google on Victor you should find somewhere a long & good essay on the Victor Recording Company and its early goals, which were to provide people with access to *good* music (not that dreadful jazz). In the first few years the company and its supporters dreamed that every farmwife could listen to Dvorak's Humoresque as she knitted, and that the children would hear recordings of Shakespeare. The country would be improved, uplifted, and edified by this democratic access to fine culture. Within a few years, however, it was apparent that most people just wanted recordings of popular music...alas for high ideals.


Allison Thompson
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 06:09:21 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:09:02 +0000
From: Graham Knight <graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: English dance 78s & Victor
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In the UK military bands were very popular in the Victorian era when
promenade concerts in parks and at the seaside were very popular. It is
possible the early folk dance recordings used them as a legacy of this
era. Also, works brass bands were also very popular. This was more so in
the industrial North and in the mining areas in particular. Some of
these bands still exist, e.g. Grimthorpe, Black Dyke Mills, etc., and
have featured in films (Brassed Off ?). The Morris Motors band here in
Oxford made some folk dance recording.

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of
allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Sent: 15 January 2004 13:39
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: English dance 78s & Victor


Graham noted the articles in EFDSS on Sharp & his recordings, which were
made in America, with both Victor and Columbia. The articles are very
helpful indeed. The bands were indeed military-type brass bands...I
don't think that Peter found out why this instrumentation was
used--perhaps they were just available musicians or the studio
musicians. Sharp directed the bands, and recorded a large number of
tunes, including morris and sword tunes, during two of his trips to the
U.S. As far as I recall, they would lay down about 20 tunes a day--of
course there was little or no editing or mixing.

I have a copy (somewhere) of the Victor recording booklet produced in
1920 that not only lists the dances, marches, and drills that are found
on each recording, but also includes a portrait photo of Sharp as well
as of Elizabeth Burchenal, the leading spirit of (international) folk
dance in the U.S., along with essays from both of them on the value of
folk dance, *plus* photos of dancers--adults and children--and
discussions of the successful use of the Victor phonograph in school and
recreational settings. Some of the photos are rather funny, as when you
see a huge, trumpet-mouthed victrola on a field in front of the school
with 200 solemn children lined up in straight rows in front of it,
preparing to drill.

If you google on Victor you should find somewhere a long & good essay on
the Victor Recording Company and its early goals, which were to provide
people with access to *good* music (not that dreadful jazz). In the
first few years the company and its supporters dreamed that every
farmwife could listen to Dvorak's Humoresque as she knitted, and that
the children would hear recordings of Shakespeare. The country would be
improved, uplifted, and edified by this democratic access to fine
culture. Within a few years, however, it was apparent that most people
just wanted recordings of popular music...alas for high ideals.


Allison Thompson

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:10:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:04:25 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: English dance 78s & Victor
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a06002001bc2c5a74036d-AT-[140.186.55.23]>
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Oh, what a wonderful thing to acquire.  I heard those 78s 35 years 
ago and made cassettes of them.   What a period piece they are.  And, 
miraculously, dancable too.

Study the history of Europe in the late 19th/early 20th century to 
understand Sharp and why brass band was the logical choice for those 
recordings.  Along the way you will come to understand some about the 
mindset that gave rise to two world wars and why it's still so hard 
for the English to willingly join the European Union - in fact why it 
took 50 years after the conclusion of the Second World War for Europe 
to even consider a European Union.

Nationalism was the most important political and cultural movement of 
the mid and late 19th c.  Without its spirit Sharp would never have 
been compelled (by his own internal logic) to seek out "real" English 
musical and cultural activity in the "countryside".  And, for that 
matter, neither would Bartok, Dvorak, Brahms, Sibelius, Grieg and a 
host of other creators in Europe.

Sadly it also led directly to Hitler and Mussolini and continues to 
stress the earth today.
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
mailto:elf-AT-cape.com
508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography 
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:41:22 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:42:06 -0500
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-erols.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s & Victor
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Allison wrote:
> I have a copy (somewhere) of the Victor recording booklet produced in
> 1920 that not only lists the dances, marches, and drills that are found
> on each recording, but also includes a portrait photo of Sharp as well
> as of Elizabeth Burchenal, the leading spirit of (international) folk
> dance in the U.S., along with essays from both of them on the value of
> folk dance, *plus* photos of dancers--adults and children--and
> discussions of the successful use of the Victor phonograph in school and
> recreational settings. Some of the photos are rather funny, as when you
> see a huge, trumpet-mouthed victrola on a field in front of the school
> with 200 solemn children lined up in straight rows in front of it,
> preparing to drill.

It would be interesting if you could somehow arrange to scan these materials
and post them to a web site.  Note that copyright protection has expired -- 
works created and published before 1978 can only retain that protection for
75 years from the date of publication, so anything first published before
12/31/28 is copyright-free (at least in the US).

And Graham wrote:
> In the UK military bands were very popular in the Victorian era when
> promenade concerts in parks and at the seaside were very popular. It is
> possible the early folk dance recordings used them as a legacy of this
> era. >
And Allison commented:
> Graham noted the articles in EFDSS on Sharp & his recordings, which were
> made in America, with both Victor and Columbia. The articles are very
> helpful indeed. The bands were indeed military-type brass bands...I
> don't think that Peter found out why this instrumentation was
> used--perhaps they were just available musicians or the studio
> musicians. Sharp directed the bands, and recorded a large number of
> tunes, including morris and sword tunes, during two of his trips to the
> U.S. As far as I recall, they would lay down about 20 tunes a day--of
> course there was little or no editing or mixing.
>
    Military bands used to be popular in the US, too, as an adjunct to
militia marching, an approved form of organized physical exercise for the
working classes.  An 1811 street plan for NYC called for parade grounds on
which citizens could demonstrate their commitment to defense of government,
their civic duty.  The original 1857 specifications in the design
competition for Central Park required that the park include a Parade Ground,
and almost half the designs submitted proposed a 45 to 50 acre space for
this purpose where the Metropolitan Museum now sits.  Olmstead and Vaux
first gave 25 acres to this purpose, but the park board whittled this down,
apparently agreeing with one contestant that "not one parade in fifty,
possibly not one in one hundred, would attract the class of people who would
make use of the drive."  The drive, now used on weekends and during non-rush
hour times weekdays for joggers, bikers and rollerbladers, was initially
restricted to carriages -- tradesmen's carts were banned.  The "public" that
the park was to welcome was that "class most fitted by education to enjoy
the beautiful in nature and art."  (Allison noted that Victrolas were first
marketed for their uplifting educational function; some things change only
slowly.)
    One authority on the park notes that "A majority of the gentlemen on the
[park] board wanted to exclude uses of public space, however linked to
republican traditions, that undermined their own concept of civic order
achieved through refinement of taste."  The Parade Ground then became the
Sheep Meadow (where sheep actually grazed up until the 1930's).
    I realize this has strayed from the list topic, but military bands
reminded me of the parade ground, and when I looked it up, I got carried
away, although of course the philosophical approach of improvement of
individuals through refinement of taste also underlies using a Victrola for
Dvorak's Humoresque and may also underlie Sharp's and Burchenal's essays,
though I haven't read them yet.
    To bring this back to topic, does everyone feel morally and spiritually
uplifted, more directly connected to a proper sense of the civic order, and,
like a bag of sugar, more refined after you have English country danced?
    Of course you do.  What a silly question.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:18:11 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:13:13 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: English dance 78s & Victor
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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<<Graham noted the articles in EFDSS on Sharp & his recordings, which were
made in America, with both Victor and Columbia. The articles are very
helpful indeed. The bands were indeed military-type brass bands...I don't
think that Peter found out why this instrumentation was used--perhaps they
were just available musicians or the studio musicians. >>

These recordings were made in the acoustic recording era, pre-1925, when
master recordings were made by placing the musicians in front of a large
recording horn, rather than using microphones and electric disc-cutting
heads. These recordings had severe restrictions on the frequencies they
could record, and severe resonances in the horns and cutting heads; as a
result, not all instruments were recorded equally well. The recording
engineers found that brass instruments recorded much better than strings or
most woodwinds, so they became quite popular. Pieces of orchestral music
were even re-scored for brass bands, to facilitate recording them. No doubt
brass bands were chosen for these recordings for that reason. (Plus, of
course, the ready availability of brass players, because they were in demand
for other recordings.)

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:19:24 -0500
From: Pat Petersen <patpetersen-AT-earthlink.net>
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Subject: Harpsichord in ECD
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In reply to Suzanne's message concerning the use of harpsichord in ECD:

> BTW, I would be willing to bet that the harpsichord was used extremely
> infrequently, if at all, to accompany dances in the 17th
> and 18th C.  Not in a chamber ensemble.  Possibly as continue in a larger
> ensemble.  First, it doesn't make enough noise to
> carry.  Second, it's not portable.  Finally, from hacking out tunes so I can
> learn the dances, most of the Playford melodies are
> not idiomatic for the keyboard -- they don't finger well at all.  In my
> opinion they are mostly fiddle tunes -- or for wind
> instrument.  

Our group loves dancing to Chuck Ward's highly energetic (not to say crazed)
rendition of Dublin Bay on solo harpsichord.  Give it a try some time!
Granted, flutes, recorders, and fiddles are more portable, and might carry
better; but consider that a harpsichord is certainly more portable than most
pianos...

Pat

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:34:49 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:32:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord in ECD
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An interesting book titled, I think, Music and Image in Society shows that a harpsichord was a lady's instrument (violins and flutes were a gentleman's instruments) and, of course, a lady does not perform in public and would not be engaged as a profesional musician (for anything but singing--and, if she were so engaged, she would not be a lady). It is apparently rare to see an 18th century painting or engraving that shows a girl or woman playing anything but a harpsichord or harp, whereas it is equally rare to see one of a boy or young man playing anything but a drum, flute, or violin. 

On the other hand, as Miss Austen deftly shows us, a lady could play upon the pianoforte in her home or the home of a friend to accompany informal dancing.

None of the literary sources or dancing manuals that I reviewed prior to about 1830 shows a piano/harpsichord as an accompaniment for a public assembly: violins, flutes, cellos, hautboys, serpents, pipe & tabor, and (oddly) harp(at least around 1800)were more common. By the 1830s you start to move into adding brass (trumpet, especially).


Allison Thompson
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:02:01 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:01:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord in ECD
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Allison, I think there's a slight logical flaw in the
argument of the book you cite--how can Handel & J.S.
Bach & the young Mozart have attained the reputation
they enjoyed as improvisers on the keyboard if they
weren't playing it? Nevertheless, there was, of
course, quite of bit of gender-role matching to
"suitable" instruments. As there still is...
As for Suzanne's remarks, I agree--I suspect that
harpsichordists were rarely carrying those
nonidiomatic melodies--they were improvising a bass
line and figures. 

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:22:08 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:21:19 -0500
From: Blank <fandango-AT-sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Dear Dawn,
There were a great number of  78s recorded by brass and winds in the 
early 20s up through the 30s, many by military bands. The recording 
technology of those days made that a very intelligent choice. The 
playback technology available to consumers was even worse. The 
recordings you have are undoubtedtly Victor 20444 - 6. There were a lot 
of those around when I began salvaging old 78s from the dustbin. The 
master numbers on 20444 tell me that it was originally recorded by HMV 
between June 1933 and April 1934.

The earliest such record I've seen comes from Genny Shimer's collection. 
This is by The Black Diamonds Band led by his nibs Cecil Sharp, dated 
November 1922.  It contains  My Lady Cullen and  The Mary and Dorothy.

Trust this is useful information.

Albert


dcculb-AT-JUNO.COM wrote:

>In addition to being a long-time English dancer, I'm also a 78 rpm record collector. Recently, I acquired 3 78s of English country dance tunes (Sharp arrangements) played by a group called the Mayfair Band. They're on the Victor label, and appear to date from the 1920s-30s. The person who sold me the records really didn't have any information about them. Does anyone know anything about the group or when/how the records were made? Any and all input would be appreciated. (The band, by the way, is largely brass and winds--a strange combo for English dance in the States--and are apparently intended for dancing, because they're at good dance tempos and take the correct number of repeats.)
>
>Dawn Culbertson
>Baltimore, MD
>

-- 
Albert Blank


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:24:27 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:21:02 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord in ECD
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Hmm. I've been reading Christoph Wolff's bio of Bach.  If the 
harpsichord had feminine implications, Bach certainly had a different 
point of view.  For him, I suspect, it was one of the two essential 
basic tools of his trade - analogous to ears and feet for dancers. 
Do you know that every study carrell (sp) in the Thomasschule in 
Leipzig had a harpsichord or clavicord in it for the student to 
practice?

Would that music were so central to our current educational system.
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
mailto:elf-AT-cape.com
508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography 
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:27:42 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:25:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord in ECD
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Hmm...Graham...I'll have to rethink Mozart. But wasn't Bach just a lowly kapelmeister? I wonder if, no matter how prodigiously talented these persons were, they weren't real "gentlemen." Would King Ludwig have dined with Mozart? Perhaps the Music & Image argument should be qualified to characteristics of the members of the middle & upper class ...oh, great, now I'll have to re-read it!

Allison
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:45:43 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:45:12 -0500
From: Blank <fandango-AT-sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s & Victor
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Dear friends,

	While military bans were certainly popular throughout the period    in which they were used for recording ECD and thereafter, they were not used as soon as recording techniques permitted. I think the technical explanation by Paul Stamler gets it just right. IMHO explanations that invoke the Zeitgeist are probably no more than blaue Nebel.

In a spirit of contentiousness,
Albert Blank


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:48:58 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:48:13 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord in ECD
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Thanks to electronics anything is possible today!

As for transporting a harpsichord, yes it's certainly more do-able than a modern grand piano.  A single keyboard spinet (Flemish or Italian) could fit into a reasonably sized station wagon or minivan with some help.  But you wouldn't want to schelp a French double on a regular basis (trust me, I did it!). And I doubt they were moved around much in the 17th or 18th C.  Once ensconced in home or hall, I'd bet they pretty much remained there (until they were burned for firewood when the piano took over -- sad but true).  Unlike like the pocket fiddle!

But it's a great sound so why not use it if you can.

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:56:42 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:56:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Benjamin Stein <ecdscd-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s & Victor
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--- "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-EROLS.COM> wrote:
> Allison wrote:
> > I have a copy (somewhere) of the Victor recording
> booklet produced in
> > 1920 that not only lists the dances, marches, and
> drills that are found
> > on each recording, but also includes a portrait photo
> of Sharp as well
> > as of Elizabeth Burchenal, the leading spirit of
> (international) folk
> > dance in the U.S., along with essays from both of them
> on the value of
> > folk dance, *plus* photos of dancers--adults and
> children--and
> > discussions of the successful use of the Victor
> phonograph in school and
> > recreational settings. Some of the photos are rather
> funny, as when you
> > see a huge, trumpet-mouthed victrola on a field in
> front of the school
> > with 200 solemn children lined up in straight rows in
> front of it,
> > preparing to drill.
> 
> It would be interesting if you could somehow arrange to
> scan these materials
> and post them to a web site.  Note that copyright
> protection has expired -- 
> works created and published before 1978 can only retain
> that protection for
> 75 years from the date of publication, so anything first
> published before
> 12/31/28 is copyright-free (at least in the US).
> 
> And Graham wrote:
> > In the UK military bands were very popular in the
> Victorian era when
> > promenade concerts in parks and at the seaside were
> very popular. It is
> > possible the early folk dance recordings used them as a
> legacy of this
> > era. >
> And Allison commented:
> > Graham noted the articles in EFDSS on Sharp & his
> recordings, which were
> > made in America, with both Victor and Columbia. The
> articles are very
> > helpful indeed. The bands were indeed military-type
> brass bands...I
> > don't think that Peter found out why this
> instrumentation was
> > used--perhaps they were just available musicians or the
> studio
> > musicians. Sharp directed the bands, and recorded a
> large number of
> > tunes, including morris and sword tunes, during two of
> his trips to the
> > U.S. As far as I recall, they would lay down about 20
> tunes a day--of
> > course there was little or no editing or mixing.
> >
>     Military bands used to be popular in the US, too, as
> an adjunct to
> militia marching, an approved form of organized physical
> exercise for the
> working classes.  An 1811 street plan for NYC called for
> parade grounds on
> which citizens could demonstrate their commitment to
> defense of government,
> their civic duty.  The original 1857 specifications in
> the design
> competition for Central Park required that the park
> include a Parade Ground,
> and almost half the designs submitted proposed a 45 to 50
> acre space for
> this purpose where the Metropolitan Museum now sits. 
> Olmstead and Vaux
> first gave 25 acres to this purpose, but the park board
> whittled this down,
> apparently agreeing with one contestant that "not one
> parade in fifty,
> possibly not one in one hundred, would attract the class
> of people who would
> make use of the drive."  The drive, now used on weekends
> and during non-rush
> hour times weekdays for joggers, bikers and
> rollerbladers, was initially
> restricted to carriages -- tradesmen's carts were banned.
>  The "public" that
> the park was to welcome was that "class most fitted by
> education to enjoy
> the beautiful in nature and art."  (Allison noted that
> Victrolas were first
> marketed for their uplifting educational function; some
> things change only
> slowly.)
>     One authority on the park notes that "A majority of
> the gentlemen on the
> [park] board wanted to exclude uses of public space,
> however linked to
> republican traditions, that undermined their own concept
> of civic order
> achieved through refinement of taste."  The Parade Ground
> then became the
> Sheep Meadow (where sheep actually grazed up until the
> 1930's).
>     I realize this has strayed from the list topic, but
> military bands
> reminded me of the parade ground, and when I looked it
> up, I got carried
> away, although of course the philosophical approach of
> improvement of
> individuals through refinement of taste also underlies
> using a Victrola for
> Dvorak's Humoresque and may also underlie Sharp's and
> Burchenal's essays,
> though I haven't read them yet.
>     To bring this back to topic, does everyone feel
> morally and spiritually
> uplifted, more directly connected to a proper sense of
> the civic order, and,
> like a bag of sugar, more refined after you have English
> country danced?
>     Of course you do.  What a silly question.
> 
Delighted to find somone who knew about 
Elizabeth Burchenal. My first introduction to 
English Country Dance, about 1941, was with the NY Branch
af the CDS, with Elizabeth Burchenal as the leader. The
illustrations in the ori8ginal editions of her books were
most charming-High School Girls, in Bloomers, dancing under
the iron roff protection on the roof tops of the New York 
city elementary Schools. I have one cop[y of one of her
books, but unfortunately in a later re-printing. I
understand that she had women's Morris Dance teams dancing
in central park about ten years before Sharp came over
here.

Ben Stein

Ben Stein


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Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:48:54 PST
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:48:26 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord in ECD
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It's true that prior to the 19th C (when artists became god-like creatures) musicians, painters, etc. were considered more "artisans" than "artists."  And it's likely that their royal patrons would not have socialized with them (but then they wouldn't have socialized with anyone below their own status).  

Bach was highly regarded in his own lifetime -- particularly for his skill as an improviser -- on organ, harpsichord, clavichord.  Though his music was considered somewhat old fashioned by the time he died.  It's true he was invited to the court of Frederick the Great not as a dinner guest but as a renowned musician.  But the King was eager to have Bach try out his new pianos -- and gave him a melody to improvise in a public entertainment (The Musical Offering is the result).

And it's equally true, that while Mozart entertained the courts of Europe as a child prodigy (harpsichord and violin), he struggled as an adult musician to find a royal patron.  

I would guess the images of women playing keyboard instruments probably reflect more genteel society than either the life of a professional musician or royalty.  The keyboard was such an integral part of the Baroque ensemble, it's impossible that men wouldn't have played it.  And it's well-known that they did.

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:13:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:13:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Naughty ECD Names
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Your final comment brings up a personal peeve/interest
of mine:  

"Dublin Bay's" real name is "We'll Wed and We'll Bed",
which is, ironically, apparently a bit randy/honest
for a few folk...yet this was a dance publicly done
and publicly published in upper class society of the
time, so it isn't like we're talking about the grunge
metal or rap music of the 17th century here. 
(Frankly, I'd like to rename it "We'll Bed and We'll
Wed...Maybe" ;> )

Other dances like "Would You Have a Young Virgin",
"Young Virgin of 15", "Virgin's Frolick" and "How Can
I Keep My Maidenhead" are also somewhat blunt.  Did
they all have a decidedly different meaning at an
upper class social gathering of the time or was the
... um, ... 'naughtiness' met with approval.

Personally, I'm fascinated by the historical and
social picture these dance names represent and what it
tells us about the social mores of the times.  I also
suspect that some folks have sanitized the historical
names because of discomfort with the original and its
implications.  Are there callers or musicians who
avoid the more blunt ECDs simply because of their
names?

If there's a prudish cell in my body, it's long since
starved to death, but even I hesitate to call "Would
You Have a Young Virgin", especially when
children/teens are present.  Just curious if others
feel likewise.


Tom Vincent
Delaware

PS: I remember the first time I saw a Three Stooges
short from the 30s where Moe suggested to a woman that
the three guys make love to her in order to make her
husband jealous.  Something told me then that the
phrase 'make love' had changed in meaning slightly
since the 30s ;>

--- Pat Petersen <patpetersen-AT-EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> 
> Our group loves dancing to Chuck Ward's highly
> energetic (not to say crazed)
> rendition of Dublin Bay on solo harpsichord.  Give
> it a try some time!
> Granted, flutes, recorders, and fiddles are more
> portable, and might carry
> better; but consider that a harpsichord is certainly
> more portable than most
> pianos...
> 
> Pat
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:04:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:55:03 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <20040111.225507.-229701.17.gmurrow-AT-juno.com>

Gene, you're comparing Oranges and Lemons (sorry...couldn't resist) when you
compare Baroque dance arrangements with country dances of the same time
period because, I believe, they were designed for different purposes, for
different audiences, for different performers, for different settings.  Just
because we know something about *another form of dance* doesn't mean we know
those same features about a *different* form of dance.  To torture your
Rumsfeld analogy (and that sounds like fun), it's like concluding that
Saddam Hussein worked with Al Qaeda just because they both had 'issues' with
the US Govt.

Virtually all the period scores I've seen have a single melody line with no
tempo, no inflections, no notation whatsoever to indicate the style with
which they were to be performed or even by what instruments.  They are
sparse, functional scores.  Redactions done in the 20th century include
additional 'information' -- really suggestions by the interpretor -- based
on their impressions, preferences and experiences.

I enjoy imagining how a dance was done in years gone by and indulging in the
fantasy of being in that timeperiod.  But different people have their own
fantasy re-creation and who am I to say which is more accurate.  In fact,
it's enjoyable experiencing other people's interpretations.

How we dance Playford dances now may or may not accurately reflect how they
were done in 1651, but they *do*, I believe, reflect how many people *enjoy*
doing them -today-, which *is*, I think, consistant with the popular
Playford dances of the timeperiod:  If the people in a village or court
hadn't enjoyed a dance, I doubt it would have survived long enough for
Playford to have discovered it nor would he have wanted to put it in print.

Frankly, I sincerely doubt that the harpsichord was present for very many
country dance sessions.  It's expensive, fragile and quiet...not at all what
would be desirable at a country dance...maybe at court, where the acoustics
of a stone/marble hall would be more favorable, but not in a town square,
barn or meadow.  I don't recall seeing *anyone* playing one in the woodcuts
and paintings I've seen of period dances.  Doesn't mean they weren't
used...I'm just suggesting that they don't really seem to fit either the
requirements and the setting.  They began to fall out of favor around 1800,
anyway.

I disagree with your position that we dance differently today from
Playford's time.  We don't know that.  We don't know *what* the
characteristics of Playford's music was or how the dances varied from
village to village or court to court.

I can imagine that after 6 very hard, long days of back-breaking peasant
labor, some of the folk at a country dance might have been happy with a slow
social dance rather than an evening of 'Rufty Tufty'-type perky dances.

As a further example, I study recipes from Medieval, Renaissance and
Colonial periods.  Here's one from 1380: "Take unpeeled almonds, wash, crush
very well, and steep in beef broth, wine and verjuice.  Add spices as for
Meat Rosy and Diapered, except that you need more cassia and cinnamon.  You
need chicken and veal fried in lard, and sufficient sugar.  It should be
sweet with sugar."  No measurements, no times, no temperatures...nothing
about how it was served or when.  That's because the reader was 'expected'
to know the rest (even if that knowledge was different than the author's).
Give that to 5 period-savvy cooks and you'll likely come up with 5 somewhat
different dishes.

Dances and songs from pre-18th century are likewise sparse.

And that is to be expected.  Dances, songs and recipes share one thing in
common:  They weren't published often and the published results weren't for
the masses.  Books weren't cheap and neither was publishing them.  They were
written for "Those in the Know".

So I'll stand by my position that we can't dismiss *any* contemporary
performance style or tempo as not being historically accurate -- 
intentionally or not -- because they may actually have been done that way in
one or more setting...'Playford Plod' (whatever *that* is) or not.

And I think there's room for slower, elegant dances as well as fiesty,
frisky ones as well.  It depends on the dancers.  The Ball I choreographed
for New Years two weeks ago had one slower dance preceeded by 2 perky dances
(including a perky version of Childgrove, which I think is usually done much
slower than it should).  I received no complaints.

Tom Vincent
(who enjoys and appreciates Italian Renaissance, ECD, SCD and Contra)

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Gene Murrow" <gmurrow-AT-JUNO.COM>
To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music


> Tom's recent post re:Companions reminded me of his earlier response to
> something I had written and the unfinished reply sitting in my "drafts"
> folder.  The immodesty of my thinking that anyone might care to read my
> tardy reply is outweighed by my desire to avoid the impression of
> rudeness by not writing anything.  So here goes...
>
> >
> Tom raises several of the important questions that dog efforts at
> authentic or historically informed re-creation of music and dance from
> centuries ago, and that we've discussed occasionally in this forum.
>
> But just because we don't know _everything_, doesn't mean we don't know
> _something_ (sorry if this sounds like Donald Rumsfield).  We _do_ know
> how 17th- and 18th-century century composers arranged dance tunes (nearly
> all Baroque composers wrote dance suites), and we have some pretty
> detailed choreographies and descriptions of Baroque dance.  The
> arrangements (harmonies, counterpoint, written-out ornamentation, even
> orchestrations) and the steps match each other, but they don't match the
> way we dance "Playford" or "historical-style" country dances now.
>
> Presumably, anyone attempting to reproduce 17th century style is working
> from the available evidence, which means the written arrangements and
> choreographies that have survived.  That's a noble endeavor when applied
> to music _and_ dance together.  We did that at Amherst Assembly for a
> week in 1996-- learned the historical steps from Dorrie Olsson, Kitty
> Keller and others, and did country dances with those steps to harpsichord
> accompaniment by Jacqueline Schwab.  Very worthwhile and indeed a
> "sincere pleasure."
>
> What I said in my post was that I was skeptical of attempts to reproduce
> the style of 17th- and 18th-century dance music for today's social
> English country dance events.  It has a deadening effect on the dance,
> accentuating even more the dreaded "Playford plod," something we can do
> without, IMHO.  I also said that the style the best current ECD musicians
> have evolved works better for "how we dance now" than historically
> informed re-creations of 17th century style.  I did not say that any
> particular interpretation was more authentic than any other (I think you
> misquoted me, Tom).  Indeed, what the folks I mentioned do isn't
> authentic (in its historical sense) at all, and they'd be the first to
> admit it.
>
> [sliding his soapbox out from under his desk and erecting his flame
> shields...] I think that one of the most unfortunate influences on the
> ECD revival was the attention to historical re-creation which absorbed
> many teachers and dancers in the mid-1970's.  Suddenly the focus shifted
> from learning the spirited style of dance invented and promoted by Sharp
> and his followers as appropriate for 20th-century social dancers, to
> discussions of thorny points of interpretation, working out alternative
> or new interpretations of country dances and walking through the patterns
> on the dance floor, and generally unsuccessful attempts by amateurs to
> learn Baroque style.  It was a change from "dancing" to "dances." Many
> people, especially young people, lost interest, and it's from that point
> that I mark the graying and slowing of ECD.  The genre had already lost
> the vigor it once had in the 17th & 18th centuries based on the Baroque
> style, and now it lost the new vigor it had in the 20th century based on
> the revival style.  That's what's behind my curmudgeonly(?) objection to
> applying 17th/18th-century musical styles to today's social ECD.  We need
> more energy in much of our dancing, not less...  and, once again, music
> played in 17th/18th-century styles for 21st-century dancers is
> enervating, not invigorating.
>
> Gene
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-post.harvard.edu> - for your Address book
> ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>         - "Reply" button
> destination

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:33:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:31:02 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000401c3dbf1$ef15f220$bc8f4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <20040115221318.36775.qmail-AT-web12203.mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>

<<Other dances like "Would You Have a Young Virgin",
"Young Virgin of 15", "Virgin's Frolick" and "How Can
I Keep My Maidenhead" are also somewhat blunt.  Did
they all have a decidedly different meaning at an
upper class social gathering of the time or was the
... um, ... 'naughtiness' met with approval.>>

They didn't call it "merry old England" for nothing. Consider that if modern
(post-WWI) mores were a reaction against Victorianism, Victorianism was a
reaction against something else. Oversimplifying a *whole* lot, there were
periods of repression (e.g., the Puritan era) interspersed with periods of
outright license (e.g., the Restoration era).

It's also usually been the case that the upper classes were granted certain
privileges in behavior, particularly sexual behavior, that were sternly
denied to the emerging middle class, whose mores were in the process of
being defined.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:41:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:36:43 -0500
From: Howard Carlberg <carlberg-AT-sonic.net>
Subject: [SPAM:#] Re:English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <40077844.E818F66C-AT-sonic.net>
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References: <00A2BEBD.AA74D758.1-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu>

Dawn,
I have a few 78's of country dances in my collection, Sharp
arrangements, also a few morris tunes, and some country
dances arranged by Percy Granger.  I have recently inherited
about 4 boxes of record catalogs from the teens into the
40s.  I am sure information useful to both of us is in
there.  I am, however, in the middle of moving from
Sebastopol, California to Berea Kentucky.  If you can wait,
I will contact you when my "stuff" and I are together again.

Howard
-- 
email -Howard:  carlberg-AT-sonic.net 
     -Shirley:  nonesuch_1998-AT-yahoo.com 
phone -Howard mobile: (707) 292-8571
     -Shirley mobile: (415) 871-1651

Howard & Shirley Carlberg
128 N. Broadway
Berea, KY 40403
(859) 985-5501

> In addition to being a long-time English dancer, I'm also a 78 rpm record collector. Recently, I acquired 3 78s of English
> country dance tunes (Sharp arrangements) played by a group called the Mayfair Band. They're on the Victor label, and appear to
> date from the 1920s-30s. The person who sold me the records really didn't have any information about them. Does anyone know
> anything about the group or when/how the records were made? Any and all input would be appreciated.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:58:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:56:25 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [SPAM:#] Re:English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <005c01c3dbf5$7a4ad1a0$bc8f4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <00A2BEBD.AA74D758.1-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu> <40077844.E818F66C-AT-sonic.net>

<<I have a few 78's of country dances in my collection, Sharp
arrangements, also a few morris tunes, and some country
dances arranged by Percy Granger.  I have recently inherited
about 4 boxes of record catalogs from the teens into the
40s.  I am sure information useful to both of us is in
there.  I am, however, in the middle of moving from
Sebastopol, California to Berea Kentucky.  If you can wait,
I will contact you when my "stuff" and I are together again.>>

I also have a "dating guide" for 78s, which sounds like tips for keeping
them entertained during dinner, but actually gives release dates (by catalog
number) and recording dates (by matrix number). Very useful little book, if
maddeningly incomplete.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:12:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:21:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: mab-AT-tgis.co.uk
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1074234116.52.58980-mab-AT-galahad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I am afraid that too many list readers have been watching too many "Disney"
films about history and have a completely unrealistic view about who
actually did the "Playford" dances.  Listen to Gene - he knows what he is
talking about.  Essentially these dances were done by a very small leisured
elite.  The rest of the population were far too busy to dance (at least
this sort of dance).  They had much more important things to do - like
staying alive.  These were the dances of the Court and the Inns of Court
(where the lawyers lived and worked).  These were NOT the dances of the
courtyard or the meadow.  The same musicians who played the works of
Purcell, Blows, Telemann etc played for the dancing.  Read the late 17th
century and early 18th century adverts for concerts - many were followed by
country dancing with the same musicians playing for both.  Look at the
frontispieces to the later volumes of Playford - see the musical ensemble
gathered around a harpsichord/spinet or whatever (played by a man).  

These dances were for the same audience, same setting, same performers as
the baroque music we have been discussing.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.michaelbarraclough.com

At Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:55:03 -0500, Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Gene, you're comparing Oranges and Lemons (sorry...couldn't resist) when 
> +you
> compare Baroque dance arrangements with country dances of the same time
> period because, I believe, they were designed for different purposes, for
> different audiences, for different performers, for different settings.  
> +Just
> because we know something about *another form of dance* doesn't mean we 
> +know
> those same features about a *different* form of dance.  To torture your
> Rumsfeld analogy (and that sounds like fun), it's like concluding that
> Saddam Hussein worked with Al Qaeda just because they both had 'issues' 
> +with
> the US Govt.
> 
> Virtually all the period scores I've seen have a single melody line with
no
> tempo, no inflections, no notation whatsoever to indicate the style with
> which they were to be performed or even by what instruments.  They are
> sparse, functional scores.  Redactions done in the 20th century include
> additional 'information' -- really suggestions by the interpretor --
based
> on their impressions, preferences and experiences.
> 
> I enjoy imagining how a dance was done in years gone by and indulging in 
> +the
> fantasy of being in that timeperiod.  But different people have their own
> fantasy re-creation and who am I to say which is more accurate.  In fact,
> it's enjoyable experiencing other people's interpretations.
> 
> How we dance Playford dances now may or may not accurately reflect how
they
> were done in 1651, but they *do*, I believe, reflect how many people 
> +*enjoy*
> doing them -today-, which *is*, I think, consistant with the popular
> Playford dances of the timeperiod:  If the people in a village or court
> hadn't enjoyed a dance, I doubt it would have survived long enough for
> Playford to have discovered it nor would he have wanted to put it in
print.
> 
> Frankly, I sincerely doubt that the harpsichord was present for very many
> country dance sessions.  It's expensive, fragile and quiet...not at all 
> +what
> would be desirable at a country dance...maybe at court, where the
acoustics
> of a stone/marble hall would be more favorable, but not in a town square,
> barn or meadow.  I don't recall seeing *anyone* playing one in the
woodcuts
> and paintings I've seen of period dances.  Doesn't mean they weren't
> used...I'm just suggesting that they don't really seem to fit either the
> requirements and the setting.  They began to fall out of favor around
1800,
> anyway.
> 
> I disagree with your position that we dance differently today from
> Playford's time.  We don't know that.  We don't know *what* the
> characteristics of Playford's music was or how the dances varied from
> village to village or court to court.
> 
> I can imagine that after 6 very hard, long days of back-breaking peasant
> labor, some of the folk at a country dance might have been happy with a 
> +slow
> social dance rather than an evening of 'Rufty Tufty'-type perky dances.
> 
> As a further example, I study recipes from Medieval, Renaissance and
> Colonial periods.  Here's one from 1380: "Take unpeeled almonds, wash, 
> +crush
> very well, and steep in beef broth, wine and verjuice.  Add spices as for
> Meat Rosy and Diapered, except that you need more cassia and cinnamon. 
You
> need chicken and veal fried in lard, and sufficient sugar.  It should be
> sweet with sugar."  No measurements, no times, no temperatures...nothing
> about how it was served or when.  That's because the reader was
'expected'
> to know the rest (even if that knowledge was different than the
author's).
> Give that to 5 period-savvy cooks and you'll likely come up with 5
somewhat
> different dishes.
> 
> Dances and songs from pre-18th century are likewise sparse.
> 
> And that is to be expected.  Dances, songs and recipes share one thing in
> common:  They weren't published often and the published results weren't
for
> the masses.  Books weren't cheap and neither was publishing them.  They 
> +were
> written for "Those in the Know".
> 
> So I'll stand by my position that we can't dismiss *any* contemporary
> performance style or tempo as not being historically accurate -- 
> intentionally or not -- because they may actually have been done that way

> +in
> one or more setting...'Playford Plod' (whatever *that* is) or not.
> 
> And I think there's room for slower, elegant dances as well as fiesty,
> frisky ones as well.  It depends on the dancers.  The Ball I
choreographed
> for New Years two weeks ago had one slower dance preceeded by 2 perky 
> +dances
> (including a perky version of Childgrove, which I think is usually done 
> +much
> slower than it should).  I received no complaints.
> 
> Tom Vincent
> (who enjoys and appreciates Italian Renaissance, ECD, SCD and Contra)
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Gene Murrow" <gmurrow-AT-JUNO.COM>
> To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
> 
> 
>> Tom's recent post re:Companions reminded me of his earlier response to
>> something I had written and the unfinished reply sitting in my "drafts"
>> folder.  The immodesty of my thinking that anyone might care to read my
>> tardy reply is outweighed by my desire to avoid the impression of
>> rudeness by not writing anything.  So here goes...
>>
>> >
>> Tom raises several of the important questions that dog efforts at
>> authentic or historically informed re-creation of music and dance from
>> centuries ago, and that we've discussed occasionally in this forum.
>>
>> But just because we don't know _everything_, doesn't mean we don't know
>> _something_ (sorry if this sounds like Donald Rumsfield).  We _do_ know
>> how 17th- and 18th-century century composers arranged dance tunes
(nearly
>> all Baroque composers wrote dance suites), and we have some pretty
>> detailed choreographies and descriptions of Baroque dance.  The
>> arrangements (harmonies, counterpoint, written-out ornamentation, even
>> orchestrations) and the steps match each other, but they don't match the
>> way we dance "Playford" or "historical-style" country dances now.
>>
>> Presumably, anyone attempting to reproduce 17th century style is working
>> from the available evidence, which means the written arrangements and
>> choreographies that have survived.  That's a noble endeavor when applied
>> to music _and_ dance together.  We did that at Amherst Assembly for a
>> week in 1996-- learned the historical steps from Dorrie Olsson, Kitty
>> Keller and others, and did country dances with those steps to
harpsichord
>> accompaniment by Jacqueline Schwab.  Very worthwhile and indeed a
>> "sincere pleasure."
>>
>> What I said in my post was that I was skeptical of attempts to reproduce
>> the style of 17th- and 18th-century dance music for today's social
>> English country dance events.  It has a deadening effect on the dance,
>> accentuating even more the dreaded "Playford plod," something we can do
>> without, IMHO.  I also said that the style the best current ECD
musicians
>> have evolved works better for "how we dance now" than historically
>> informed re-creations of 17th century style.  I did not say that any
>> particular interpretation was more authentic than any other (I think you
>> misquoted me, Tom).  Indeed, what the folks I mentioned do isn't
>> authentic (in its historical sense) at all, and they'd be the first to
>> admit it.
>>
>> [sliding his soapbox out from under his desk and erecting his flame
>> shields...] I think that one of the most unfortunate influences on the
>> ECD revival was the attention to historical re-creation which absorbed
>> many teachers and dancers in the mid-1970's.  Suddenly the focus shifted
>> from learning the spirited style of dance invented and promoted by Sharp
>> and his followers as appropriate for 20th-century social dancers, to
>> discussions of thorny points of interpretation, working out alternative
>> or new interpretations of country dances and walking through the
patterns
>> on the dance floor, and generally unsuccessful attempts by amateurs to
>> learn Baroque style.  It was a change from "dancing" to "dances." Many
>> people, especially young people, lost interest, and it's from that point
>> that I mark the graying and slowing of ECD.  The genre had already lost
>> the vigor it once had in the 17th & 18th centuries based on the Baroque
>> style, and now it lost the new vigor it had in the 20th century based on
>> the revival style.  That's what's behind my curmudgeonly(?) objection to
>> applying 17th/18th-century musical styles to today's social ECD.  We
need
>> more energy in much of our dancing, not less...  and, once again, music
>> played in 17th/18th-century styles for 21st-century dancers is
>> enervating, not invigorating.
>>
>> Gene
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>> Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-post.harvard.edu> - for your Address book
>> ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-juno.com>         - "Reply" button
>> destination
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 04:37:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:33:30 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a06002000bc2d897293d6-AT-[140.186.55.97]>
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At 6:21 AM +0000 1/16/04, mab-AT-TGIS.CO.UK wrote:
>I am afraid that too many list readers have been watching too many "Disney"
>films about history and have a completely unrealistic view about who
>actually did the "Playford" dances.  Listen to Gene - he knows what he is
>talking about.  Essentially these dances were done by a very small leisured
>elite.

Thanks, Mike.  Charming as Sharp's mythology about the "real" English 
folk doing their "real" folk activities is, I think I recall that 
even he figured out it wasn't quite so by the end of his life.  Sort 
of like Siding.
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
mailto:elf-AT-cape.com 
508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography 
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:21:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:21:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116152121.5868.qmail-AT-web20606.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think the question of the participants' identity is
a very tricky one to answer for all of England (and
later much of Europe and beyond) over at least 150
years. Not a Disney hootenanny, agreed. I often say to
my groups, "This is 'country' in approximately the
same way that Marie Antoinette liked to play
shepherdess." 
It is interesting, too, that at least some of the
dances suggest popular entertainment spots and popular
entertainments and even dances. Not that the dances in
Playford can be correlated with actual village or
"folk" dances (vide, for instance, how *unlike*
Playford's "Trenchmore" is to the earlier descriptions
of the dance)--but that the early choreographers may
have wanted to suggest a kinship with street and
village life (again, in the Meissen-shepherdess
manner).   
Preferably you have enough money for a dancing master
of your own, who will train you in all the best and
latest French and country dances--but the existence of
dancing "schools" suggests that there were always
people who wanted to get the same dance education more
cheaply (far cheaper if you're one of twenty pupils at
the DM's premises). 
So, I suggest that this is more or less the period
equivalent of the tennis-and-polo set--with a
predictable array of wannabes and hangers-on. Still,
it's a little hard to tell how purely "elite" the
population, say, of a military ball in New York or
Virginia in the 1750s or 1780s might have been.
  

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:00:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:59:58 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF52222BCB.F3C5EFC7-ON85256E1D.00541B7C-85256E1D.0057D7F6-AT-biogenidec.com>
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In reply to Tom's latest post:

Mostly I agree. Two things stand out though -
1) "...If the people in a village or court hadn't enjoyed a dance, I doubt
...Playford ... would he have wanted to put it in print."
As I have gone through the editions over the years, I have noted numerous
dances that in my opinion were "poor" and not consistent with the high
quality of others. I believe that these are unlikely to have been very
popular. It is my suspicion that John Playford was trying to publish as
much material as he could get his hands on without trying to select only
the most popular dances. I don't think he deliberately stuffed the book
with filler, but that he was interested in having this be as comprehensive
as possible.

2) Several of you have mentioned that you think the harpsichord is too
quiet for a country dance band. I agree that it was probably not used often
in its day for all of the other reasons, but why is volume an issue? I know
that some of the baroque instruments were quieter than their modern
counterparts (like violin) but I doubt that is the whole explanation.
Certainly there is lots of music written for harpsichord with other
instruments culminating in the Brandenburg Concertos a century later. I am
just wondering if those of you who think it is too quiet are expecting to
hear more of it than I do? When I listen to the Brandenburgs for example,
the harpsichord primarily provides what I would call "texture" (similar to
the role of the piano in contras which, in my opinion, provides "rhythm").
When the composer wants the audience to hear the notes, he gives the
harpsichord a solo.
I don't use the harpsichord for my regular English dances; just for the
annual ball (2/28 this year). On this occasion, I try to have it provide
some rhythm, some bass, and mostly texture. And on occasion when we want to
hear the individual notes of the harpsichord clearly, we give Lila a solo
(if she's playing melody) or more often it would be with a tenor or soprano
recorder. Once the Sackbuts, krummhorns, and rackett kick in (just joking)
the harpsichord recedes to its usual role of providing the sort of
accompaniment one would improvise from the figured bass and the dancers
hear mostly "texture."

Since some of the instruments are louder and others softer and dynamics are
restricted or absent on many, it is useful to take advantage of these
qualities and arrange the instrumentation accordingly. For example, rather
than have everyone play full blast every time through, look at the dance
and set it up so the smoother flowing parts are done to Cello/gamba and
tenor recorders, the phrase where the energy builds, add the harpsichord
and the soprano recorders/flutes, and when the dance has a more raucous
slipping step, bring on the concertina, fiddles, oboe, clarinet... In this
part, don't discount the Tenor recorder or harpsichord just because you
can't hear it! (And you might be surprised at how much you do hear them but
are unable to distinguish them from the general din).

CKaynor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:11:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:11:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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I have no idea what 'Disney films' you're referring to
or what that has to do with the topic, but if your
intent was to be condescending, you achieved that
goal.  Looks like you missed my points as well.

In any case, the period paintings and woodcuts I've
seen show villagers dancing in town squares and fields
(probably limited to Saturday evenings as just about
the only social activity their workloads would permit)
as well as fancy-dressed folks in court or other fancy
halls.  Additional period references and art (poetry,
song, plays, etc.) refer to town dances and musicians
too 'rural' to be exposed to Purcell and Telemann.  

So, yes, Playford dances were done by regular folk.

The frontispieces to the *first* edition of Playford
shows what looks like a violin and a couple of wind
instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm looking
at 
(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)
but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat Collection
of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon and
two violins.  Doesn't mean harpsichords weren't used
(I'm sure they were), but there are two widely viewed
counter-examples.  

I think your conclusions are far too myopic for me,
but you're certainly welcome to your opinions and your
own conclusions.  My experience and knowledge has lead
me to broaden my acceptable range of period dance
settings, participants and tempos.  Your mileage may
vary.

Tom Vincent

--- mab-AT-TGIS.CO.UK wrote:
> I am afraid that too many list readers have been
> watching too many "Disney"
> films about history and have a completely
> unrealistic view about who
> actually did the "Playford" dances.  Listen to Gene
> - he knows what he is
> talking about.  Essentially these dances were done
> by a very small leisured
> elite.  The rest of the population were far too busy
> to dance (at least
> this sort of dance).  They had much more important
> things to do - like
> staying alive.  These were the dances of the Court
> and the Inns of Court
> (where the lawyers lived and worked).  These were
> NOT the dances of the
> courtyard or the meadow.  The same musicians who
> played the works of
> Purcell, Blows, Telemann etc played for the dancing.
>  Read the late 17th
> century and early 18th century adverts for concerts
> - many were followed by
> country dancing with the same musicians playing for
> both.  Look at the
> frontispieces to the later volumes of Playford - see
> the musical ensemble
> gathered around a harpsichord/spinet or whatever
> (played by a man).  
> 
> These dances were for the same audience, same
> setting, same performers as
> the baroque music we have been discussing.
> 
> Michael Barraclough
> http://www.michaelbarraclough.com



=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:31:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:29:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Terence Gaffney <gaff-AT-neu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Graham wrote:



"I think the question of the participants' identity is
a very tricky one to answer for all of England (and
later much of Europe and beyond) over at least 150
years."


And 

"So, I suggest that this is more or less the period
equivalent of the tennis-and-polo set--with a
predictable array of wannabes and hangers-on."





I agree with the first statement ; I have problems with the second.
Consider the case of Samuel Pepys, born the son of a tailor, but having
the luck to get a good education and a job with a rising star in British
politics and government.  Not a member of the polo set, but a person of
intelligence and usefulness described at his death as " universally
belov'd, hospitable, generous, learned in many things, skilfd in music, a
very greate cherisher of learned men of whom he had the conversation."
 John Evelyn (http://www.pepys.info/pepbiog.html)

From his diary we know that he did country dancing. His case makes me
think that many people doing country dancing during the period of the
Restoration, would be at home dancing today with us in Boston, finding us
their cultural descendents.
Best,
 Terry

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:42:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:36:31 -0500
From: Mary Stafford <mes-AT-world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bawdy Titles
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <01C3DC25.985035C0-AT-ppp0a031.std.com>
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At least some (and I suspect many) of the dance tunes with bawdy titles have them because they were songs, also of course bawdy. Certainly "Would You Have a Young Virgin" is one. Thomas D'Urfey published many of them in a book called "Pills To Purge Melancholy", and the late great Ed MacCurdy recorded a number of LPs from this source, called "When Knighthood Was in Flower and Maidens Lost Their Heads". (And yes, I own them, and can sing, in my croaky voice, quite a number!) The songs range from rather delicately suggestive to outright obscene, though almost always euphemisms are used for actual acts.

Of course many of our dances have song texts- "Lili Burlero" and "Broom, the Bonny Bonny Broom" immediately come to mind for me, but there are I am sure hundreds of others.

Mary Stafford
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:51:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:51:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Dfhart24-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:21:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM writes:
The frontispieces to the *first* edition of Playford
shows what looks like a violin and a couple of wind
instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm looking
at 
(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)
but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat Collection
of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon and
two violins.  
My sister has just decided to learn to play the bassoon and I had been 
wondering if, or to what extent it may have been used as a continuo instrument.  

It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and playing I have never come 
across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  Is this an instance of an instrument's 
time which might be able to come around again? I'm also wondering if it would 
be possible to somehow utilize a bassoon with the likes of  softer instruments, 
such as recorder/s. 

Cheer,
Deborah

--Boundary_(ID_CY32ZlWQ1+XMVT6jJEz8dQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:21:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>The frontispieces to the *first* edition of Playford<BR>shows what looks like a violin and a couple of wind<BR>instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm looking<BR>at <BR>(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)<BR>but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat Collection<BR>of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon and<BR>two violins.&nbsp; </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>My sister has just decided to learn to play the bassoon and I had been wondering if, or to what extent it may have been used as a continuo instrument.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and playing I have never come across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.&nbsp; Is this an instance of an instrument's time which might be&nbsp;able to come&nbsp;around again? I'm also wondering if&nbsp;it would be&nbsp;possible to somehow&nbsp;utilize a bassoon with the likes of&nbsp; softer instruments, such as recorder/s.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheer,</DIV>
<DIV>Deborah</DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_CY32ZlWQ1+XMVT6jJEz8dQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:03:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:03:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Pepys: Yes, Terry--but he was also a famous
social-climber. The lovely testimonials tell us that
he was a *successful* climber. 

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
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Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:22:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:22:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Terence Gaffney <gaff-AT-neu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Graham Christian wrote:

> Pepys: Yes, Terry--but he was also a famous
> social-climber. The lovely testimonials tell us that
> he was a *successful* climber. 


One of my points is that there were (and are) different kinds of elites--
The" polo and tennis set" connotes as  vapid, self-absorbed and idle
while Pepys' circle was active, intelligent and interested in anything
human. Among other things he was president of the Royal Society.

My other point, is when we ask who did ECD back then, well there was a
group of people not that much different from us.

best,
 Terry
> 
> =====
> Graham Christian
> "They love dance well that will dance among thorns."
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:27:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:27:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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You make some good points, but remember that
publishing *anything* would have been expensive, so I
don't think adding fluff or filler (or
'comprehensive', if you will) is the answer.  

Clearly some of the dances fell in and out of favor as
the deletions and insertions from edition to edition
show (It would be fun to do some statistical analysis
to see if there was some pattern over time, but that's
just me :) ).

And there's no way of extrapolating *any* of our
judgments of a dance into its popularity in the
timeperiod.  What we denounce as 'poor' might have
been wildly popular at one time or in one village. 
Even today, I've seen some callers who love a
particular dance even though many of the dancers don't
particularly care for it.

Volume is important when you're dancing outside. 
Harpsichords just don't have the horsepower...and I
wouldn't want to subject one to the elements
unnecessarily, either.  Violins, recorders, sackbutts,
shawns, horns, drums...all are better at projecting
music in open spaces.

Personally, I love the sound of harpsichord and
cherish the fact that I have a harpsichordist for our
Balls here in DE and PA.  I just wouldn't want one for
a barn dance or at a Renaissance Faire.

Tom

--- Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM>
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In reply to Tom's latest post:
> 
> Mostly I agree. Two things stand out though -
> 1) "...If the people in a village or court hadn't
> enjoyed a dance, I doubt
> ...Playford ... would he have wanted to put it in
> print."
> As I have gone through the editions over the years,
> I have noted numerous
> dances that in my opinion were "poor" and not
> consistent with the high
> quality of others. I believe that these are unlikely
> to have been very
> popular. It is my suspicion that John Playford was
> trying to publish as
> much material as he could get his hands on without
> trying to select only
> the most popular dances. I don't think he
> deliberately stuffed the book
> with filler, but that he was interested in having
> this be as comprehensive
> as possible.
> 
> 2) Several of you have mentioned that you think the
> harpsichord is too
> quiet for a country dance band. I agree that it was
> probably not used often
> in its day for all of the other reasons, but why is
> volume an issue? I know
> that some of the baroque instruments were quieter
> than their modern
> counterparts (like violin) but I doubt that is the
> whole explanation.
> Certainly there is lots of music written for
> harpsichord with other
> instruments culminating in the Brandenburg Concertos
> a century later. I am
> just wondering if those of you who think it is too
> quiet are expecting to
> hear more of it than I do? When I listen to the
> Brandenburgs for example,
> the harpsichord primarily provides what I would call
> "texture" (similar to
> the role of the piano in contras which, in my
> opinion, provides "rhythm").
> When the composer wants the audience to hear the
> notes, he gives the
> harpsichord a solo.
> I don't use the harpsichord for my regular English
> dances; just for the
> annual ball (2/28 this year). On this occasion, I
> try to have it provide
> some rhythm, some bass, and mostly texture. And on
> occasion when we want to
> hear the individual notes of the harpsichord
> clearly, we give Lila a solo
> (if she's playing melody) or more often it would be
> with a tenor or soprano
> recorder. Once the Sackbuts, krummhorns, and rackett
> kick in (just joking)
> the harpsichord recedes to its usual role of
> providing the sort of
> accompaniment one would improvise from the figured
> bass and the dancers
> hear mostly "texture."
> 
> Since some of the instruments are louder and others
> softer and dynamics are
> restricted or absent on many, it is useful to take
> advantage of these
> qualities and arrange the instrumentation
> accordingly. For example, rather
> than have everyone play full blast every time
> through, look at the dance
> and set it up so the smoother flowing parts are done
> to Cello/gamba and
> tenor recorders, the phrase where the energy builds,
> add the harpsichord
> and the soprano recorders/flutes, and when the dance
> has a more raucous
> slipping step, bring on the concertina, fiddles,
> oboe, clarinet... In this
> part, don't discount the Tenor recorder or
> harpsichord just because you
> can't hear it! (And you might be surprised at how
> much you do hear them but
> are unable to distinguish them from the general
> din).
> 
> CKaynor
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:30:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:29:59 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I think a bassoon would be great
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:34:00 PST
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:33:23 +0000 (US/Eastern)
From: cedar-AT-interlog.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Deborah writes :
> It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and playing I have never 
> come across an ECD band that uses a bassoon. 

Although they are not a regular band, I have called ECD to a band 
that consisted of fiddle, piano, and bassoon.  I thought they sounded
great, but then I love the bassoon, and the person playing it is a 
Toronto legend, who plays bassoon for music as disparate as jazz 
and Renaissance dance.  (And *everything* else under the sun - 
there's a reason why everyone in Toronto knows him!)


Christine
(now getting ensconced in the Boston
scene)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:54:28 PST
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:52:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Contemporary evidence--such as the famous dancing scene from Goldsmith's Vicar of Wakefield--suggests that the peasants were dancing dances 20-60 years out-of-date compared to London: they were dancing the old rounds, gigs & reels when the well-to-do were dancing country dances and French dances. 

Country dances eventually slid down the social scale as the wealthy turned to waltzes and quadrilles, which then slid downwards as well (as in the famous 5th figure of The Lancers, which can be found in several folk versions in England and New England.)

Morris & sword followed a similar pattern of gradual declassee-ness, until they were "discovered" and "rescued" by Sharp et al.

Allison
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:59:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:57:27 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>

>>In any case, the period paintings and woodcuts I've
seen show villagers dancing in town squares and fields
(probably limited to Saturday evenings as just about
the only social activity their workloads would permit)
as well as fancy-dressed folks in court or other fancy
halls.  Additional period references and art (poetry,
song, plays, etc.) refer to town dances and musicians
too 'rural' to be exposed to Purcell and Telemann.

So, yes, Playford dances were done by regular folk.>>

But, Tom, that doesn't follow. That villagers were dancing, I have no doubt.
People everywhere dance whenever they can; that seems to be an
almost-universal trait of human beings, despite occasional attempts at
repressing it.

But were they dancing Playford dances? Or were they dancing something less
stylized, perhaps something which bears the same resemblance to Playford as
a North Carolina square dance from the 1850s bore to whatever the upper
crust folks in Philadelphia were dancing?

We have no way of being sure, since there wasn't a Cecil Sharp out there
collecting dances from villages, but my gut feeling is that they weren't
doing Playford dances. Those, with a few exceptions, have the feel of
courtly "tamings" of traditional dance styles, and newly-made dances using
moves from traditional dance styles (rather like the "zesty contras" now
being composed) along with influences and perhaps importations from the
Continent. (The exceptions include dances like "Nonesuch", almost certainly
a traditional dance with few alterations.)

Just my $.02, and with few data available at that. We have no info, really,
about how much of Playford came from genuine peasant dance sources, how much
he and other dancing masters messed with it, and how much filtered in the
other direction, from the aristocracy to the peasantry. My guess as to the
latter: not much, since the dancing-master books would not have been
accessible to peasants, who wouldn't have had the money to pay for them or,
in most cases, the literacy to read them. The one source of leakage might
have been musicians; Ali Anderson's comment that a musician would be likely
to play for the high folks at the manor at dinner-time, and for the lads at
the pub that night, and thereby earn his keep, indicates a possible path for
crossover.

Nothing like countering one's own argument, eh? But my gut feeling is still
that the peasants were dancing something only distantly related to
Playford's dances.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:04:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:01:49 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <004601c3dc5a$d0fb3fc0$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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----- Original Message -----
From: <Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM>

<<It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and playing I have never come
across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  Is this an instance of an
instrument's
time which might be able to come around again? I'm also wondering if it
would
be possible to somehow utilize a bassoon with the likes of  softer
instruments,
such as recorder/s. >>

Back in the early 1990s, the house band for the St. Louis ECD group had a
bassoonist who doubled on flute. It sounded absolutely lovely, but she moved
to Ohio and we lost her (something about a tenure-track position). Great
while it lasted, though.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:14:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:12:06 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <005c01c3dc5c$405637c0$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <Pine.OSF.4.03.10401161216090.9089-100000-AT-research.neu.edu>

----- Original Message -----
From: Terence Gaffney <gaff-AT-NEU.EDU>

<<One of my points is that there were (and are) different kinds of elites--
The" polo and tennis set" connotes as  vapid, self-absorbed and idle
while Pepys' circle was active, intelligent and interested in anything
human. Among other things he was president of the Royal Society.

My other point, is when we ask who did ECD back then, well there was a
group of people not that much different from us.>>

Well, that may depend on what we mean by "back then". Are we talking of
1651? Or 1720? Or 1780? Those are very different times. By many accounts,
the English middle class essentially developed in the "Long 18th Century",
and those would be the folks most like the ECDers I know -- middle-class,
for the most part. In my contact with the ECD world, I've met a few rich
folks and a few working-class folks, but most of the participants have been
in one or another part of the middle classes.

I can see the audience for Playford's books shifting as the new middle class
clamored to learn the dances they associated with the elite. Perhaps this
development of a new audience helped keep the books in print for so long.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:26:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:26:11 +0000 (US/Eastern)
From: cedar-AT-interlog.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <E1AhYfb-0006BO-00-AT-app3.nasc.inter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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http://www.setdance.com/archive/dance_and_quadrille.html

has an amusing poem about the country dance versus the quadrille,
during the transition period(s).


Christine


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:33:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:12:33 -0600
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116121144.025b6788-AT-mail.mhtc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <9.207e1fde.2d397090-AT-aol.com> <004601c3dc5a$d0fb3fc0$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam>


--Boundary_(ID_WGAMkLy0AEB+eV1GQDtt1Q)
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Our local band, the Wisconsin River Consort
has a bassoon.  Some of the tunes sound like they were written specifically 
for that instrument.




><<It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and playing I have never come
>across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.

Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail 
notification list
         <mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net%3E>"Mike 
- remove me from MECD"<mgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net>

Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing

The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM.

Dancing
         October through May at the Wilmar Center,
                 <http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif>953 
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin
         June through September West Steps of Memorial Library,  on the Mall
                 <http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif>University 
of Wisconsin-Madison
For more information, contact
         Mike (mgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net),
         Jean (608-231-1040) or
         Don (608-238-9951)
Website
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm

--Boundary_(ID_WGAMkLy0AEB+eV1GQDtt1Q)
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<html>
<body>
<font size=3>Our local band, the Wisconsin River Consort<br>
has a bassoon.&nbsp; Some of the tunes sound like they were written
specifically for that instrument.<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;&lt;It occurs to me that in my
years of dancing and playing I have never come<br>
across an ECD band that uses a bassoon. </blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail
notification list<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab></font><a href="mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net%3E"><font size=3 color="#00FF00"><b>&quot;Mike
- remove me from MECD&quot;&lt;mgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net&gt;<br><br>
</a></i></font><font size=3>Madison Wisconsin English Country
Dancing<br><br>
</b><i>The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets<br>
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Dancing <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>October
through May at the Wilmar Center, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif">953
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin</a><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>June
through September West Steps of Memorial Library,&nbsp; on the Mall<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif">University
of Wisconsin-Madison</a><br>
For more information, contact<br>
</i><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><i>Mike
(mgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net),<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Jean
(608-231-1040) or <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Don
(608-238-9951)<br>
</i>Website <br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm<br>
</a></font></b></body>
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_WGAMkLy0AEB+eV1GQDtt1Q)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:42:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:42:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116184224.95672.qmail-AT-web20610.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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"The "polo and tennis set" connotes as  vapid,
self-absorbed and idle while Pepys' circle was active,
intelligent and interested in anything human."
I plead innocent of the charge of having said anything
of the sort; I have not characterized the polo and
tennis set as vapid or self-absorbed or idle. Try
being idle AND playing tennis--your score will
certainly be love, love, and love. 
I suggest only that learning dance necessitated
disposable income, as tennis and polo do now. 
Terry, I think you're creating a kind of dichotomy
between the noble bourgeois and the wicked upper
classes that I have not (and indeed, I would reject,
at least as a simple dichotomy). The whole array of
human types can be found as readily among those with
great fortunes as among those with small fortunes, or
none.   

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:56:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:54:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 02:20:05 -0600 Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> writes:
> 
> Hi Dawn:
> 
> What are the record numbers? If there are matrix numbers, what are 
> those?

Here's the technical info, for you & whoever else is interested:

Victor 20444 A/B (The Black Nag & Grimstock/Newcastle & Sweet Kate) (Bb9458)
Victor 20445 A/B (Gathering Peascods/Sellenger's Round) (Bb9461)
Victor 20746 A/B (Confess & Lady in the Dark/Chelsea Reach) (Bb9454)

All performed by the Mayfair Band, arr. Cecil Sharp, recorded in England. No date of recording given.

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:01:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:58:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116.105925.9511.487213-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com>
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On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:13:18 -0800 (PST) Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM> writes:
> Your final comment brings up a personal peeve/interest
> of mine:  
> 
> "Dublin Bay's" real name is "We'll Wed and We'll Bed",
> which is, ironically, apparently a bit randy/honest
> for a few folk...yet this was a dance publicly done
> and publicly published in upper class society of the
> time, so it isn't like we're talking about the grunge
> metal or rap music of the 17th century here. 
> (Frankly, I'd like to rename it "We'll Bed and We'll
> Wed...Maybe" ;> )
> 
> Other dances like "Would You Have a Young Virgin",
> "Young Virgin of 15", "Virgin's Frolick" and "How Can
> I Keep My Maidenhead" are also somewhat blunt.  Did
> they all have a decidedly different meaning at an
> upper class social gathering of the time or was the
> ... um, ... 'naughtiness' met with approval.

No, it's just that at that time people seem to have been a lot more open and a lot less prudish about sex. Class didn't seem to have much to do with it. The prudish attitudes really didn't come into full force until the Victorian era. (And they were extremely hypocritical--it was considered indecent for a pregnant woman to show her face in public or for a woman to show her ankle, yet this was the era of Jack the Ripper and opium dens.)

> 
> PS: I remember the first time I saw a Three Stooges
> short from the 30s where Moe suggested to a woman that
> the three guys make love to her in order to make her
> husband jealous.  Something told me then that the
> phrase 'make love' had changed in meaning slightly
> since the 30s ;>

It has. I don't know when the meaning changed, but through the 20s and 30s it meant, basically, flirting.

Dawn Culbertson
Baltimore, MD

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:50:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:47:57 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <008601c3dc69$a4502b20$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: <dcculb-AT-juno.com>

<<Here's the technical info, for you & whoever else is interested:

Victor 20444 A/B (The Black Nag & Grimstock/Newcastle & Sweet Kate) (Bb9458)
Victor 20445 A/B (Gathering Peascods/Sellenger's Round) (Bb9461)
Victor 20746 A/B (Confess & Lady in the Dark/Chelsea Reach) (Bb9454)

All performed by the Mayfair Band, arr. Cecil Sharp, recorded in England. No
date of recording given.>>

The Online Discographical Project gives no recording dates, but the record
numbers (Confess, etc. is actually 20446) would indicate an issue date of
1927. From the matrix numbers, they were recorded in autumn of 1926.

Which makes the question of using brass instruments for technical reasons
contingent on when HMV (which cut the masters) switched from acoustical to
electrical recording. I'll make inquiries.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:56:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:53:58 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <009301c3dc6a$7bb35420$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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References: <20040116.105925.9511.487213-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: <dcculb-AT-JUNO.COM>

> PS: I remember the first time I saw a Three Stooges
> short from the 30s where Moe suggested to a woman that
> the three guys make love to her in order to make her
> husband jealous.  Something told me then that the
> phrase 'make love' had changed in meaning slightly
> since the 30s ;>

<<It has. I don't know when the meaning changed, but through the 20s and 30s
it meant, basically, flirting.>>

See, for example, "Duck Soup", where Groucho says to Chico and Harpo,
"Making love to Mrs. Teasdale [Margaret Dumont] is my job."

There's a "hillbilly" 78 reissued on one of Yazoo's "Times Ain't Like They
Used to Be" compilations called "How to Make Love", which is basically about
the art of courtship.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:21:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:12:27 -0500
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bawdy Titles
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040116151132.00a39650-AT-mail.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--Boundary_(ID_w/pbmdXv7nQunyEfgTH8MQ)
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Nobody has mentioned "An Old Man Is a Bed Full of Bones". I will not forget 
the Atelier Danse recording scored for "chant en diddeling".

--Boundary_(ID_w/pbmdXv7nQunyEfgTH8MQ)
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<html>
<font size=3>Nobody has mentioned &quot;An Old Man Is a Bed Full of
Bones&quot;. I will not forget the Atelier Danse recording scored for
&quot;chant en diddeling&quot;.</font></html>

--Boundary_(ID_w/pbmdXv7nQunyEfgTH8MQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:22:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:21:51 -0500
From: Blank <fandango-AT-sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <400847DF.6040600-AT-sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com>

Dear Dawn,

You wrote:

>Here's the technical info, for you & whoever else is interested:
>
>Victor 20444 A/B (The Black Nag & Grimstock/Newcastle & Sweet Kate) (Bb9458)
>Victor 20445 A/B (Gathering Peascods/Sellenger's Round) (Bb9461)
>Victor 20746 A/B (Confess & Lady in the Dark/Chelsea Reach) (Bb9454)
>
>All performed by the Mayfair Band, arr. Cecil Sharp, recorded in England. No date of recording given.
>
The numbers of the masters are the numbers you give in parentheses at 
the end of each record's data. These can often be found on the space 
between the label and the grooves as well as on the label. The Bb code 
was used by HMV. Many of the HMV recordings were marketed in the U.S. 
under the Victor label and the master numbers were always carried over. 
The numbers are in temporal sequence. By bracketing between masters with 
known dates, we can tell that these masters were made between June 1933 
and April 1934, as I've already written. If the disks were issued under 
the HMV label in England, I might be able to get you more precise dates. 
I'll check my information when I get a chance and let you know.

Albert Blank


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:33:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:33:06 -0500
From: Blank <fandango-AT-sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <40084A82.7060300-AT-sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com> <008601c3dc69$a4502b20$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam>

Paul,

Your matrix numbers are identical with my "master" numbers. My index 
comes from physical examination of the records and contemporary 
publications of EFDSS. The year 1927 makes more sense than 1933-4 from 
what I know of the technology so perhaps I have  the issue dates rather 
than the dates when the masters were cut.

The changeover from acoustical to electrical recording was accompanied 
by a changeover in the alpha prefix of the master numbers. You will 
probably be able to get that information before I can access my ancient 
files.

Thank you for investigating these things.

-- 
Albert Blank


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:08:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:08:18 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFD9C8CD2F.278FCEF3-ON85256E1D.0073AF12-85256E1D.00741292-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Dear Tom,
You say -
Volume is important when you're dancing outside.
Harpsichords just don't have the horsepower...and I
wouldn't want to subject one to the elements
unnecessarily, either.  Violins, recorders, sackbutts,
shawns, horns, drums...all are better at projecting
music in open spaces.

I agree that the harpsichord was an unlikely instrument for ECD except
perhaps in some chamber halls with an instrument already resident.
Certainly outdoors is not one of these. Poor portability, non-weather
resistant, constant tuning and action adjustments, etc... all argue for
only rare instances - like our annual ball. I just don't get it about
horsepower and volume. The baroque recorders do a poor job outdoors as well
and the wind tends to interfere with air passage over the fipple and yet I
don't hear people saying they are unlikely and/or inappropriate instruments
for ECD. If I need volume and horsepower, I usually use tabor pipe or fife.
This is a matter of common sense and necessity just as I might use
amplification to allow me to play a tenor recorder in situations where it
would otherwise be uselessly inaudible.

But the other instruments you mention are ones from which you expect to
hear melody (or rhythm in the case of the drum). Is that what you expect
the Harpsichord to "project." I guess that is where we disagree because as
I said before, I believe the role of this instrument is to provide mainly
"texture" to the sound of the ensemble. This is the quality it is suited to
project even in the presence of a string orchestra. If you want to hear
melody, give the harpsichordist a solo round.
Maybe the flip side is that this is why I dislike piano so much for ECD.
The pianists tend to "project" their music and change the baroque blend
more than any other modern instrument. Could it be that you are listening
for the piano in the playing of the harpsichord?

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:19:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:19:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040116211900.68479.qmail-AT-web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hmmm...you certainly make a valid point.  My
understanding of Playford's research is that he
travelled around English villages gathering dances
that were done there.  If that isn't true, then there
certainly wouldn't be a clear relationship between the
village dances and Playford's dances.

We certainly can't tell *what* dances people were
doing in woodcuts or paintings -- even if the title
included a name, we don't know if it was the same
dance Playford recorded.

Thanks for the explanation.  Good points.

Tom

--- Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> But, Tom, that doesn't follow. That villagers were
> dancing, I have no doubt.
> People everywhere dance whenever they can; that
> seems to be an
> almost-universal trait of human beings, despite
> occasional attempts at
> repressing it.
> 
> But were they dancing Playford dances? Or were they
> dancing something less
> stylized, perhaps something which bears the same
> resemblance to Playford as
> a North Carolina square dance from the 1850s bore to
> whatever the upper
> crust folks in Philadelphia were dancing?
> 
> We have no way of being sure, since there wasn't a
> Cecil Sharp out there
> collecting dances from villages, but my gut feeling
> is that they weren't
> doing Playford dances. Those, with a few exceptions,
> have the feel of
> courtly "tamings" of traditional dance styles, and
> newly-made dances using
> moves from traditional dance styles (rather like the
> "zesty contras" now
> being composed) along with influences and perhaps
> importations from the
> Continent. (The exceptions include dances like
> "Nonesuch", almost certainly
> a traditional dance with few alterations.)
> 
> Just my $.02, and with few data available at that.
> We have no info, really,
> about how much of Playford came from genuine peasant
> dance sources, how much
> he and other dancing masters messed with it, and how
> much filtered in the
> other direction, from the aristocracy to the
> peasantry. My guess as to the
> latter: not much, since the dancing-master books
> would not have been
> accessible to peasants, who wouldn't have had the
> money to pay for them or,
> in most cases, the literacy to read them. The one
> source of leakage might
> have been musicians; Ali Anderson's comment that a
> musician would be likely
> to play for the high folks at the manor at
> dinner-time, and for the lads at
> the pub that night, and thereby earn his keep,
> indicates a possible path for
> crossover.
> 
> Nothing like countering one's own argument, eh? But
> my gut feeling is still
> that the peasants were dancing something only
> distantly related to
> Playford's dances.
> 
> Peace,
> Paul
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:22:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:21:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: how elite?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040116212151.45181.qmail-AT-web12207.mail.yahoo.com>
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Also, as the price of published books decreased, they
would then have been available to a larger segment of
English society.

--- Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, that may depend on what we mean by "back
> then". Are we talking of
> 1651? Or 1720? Or 1780? Those are very different
> times. By many accounts,
> the English middle class essentially developed in
> the "Long 18th Century",
> and those would be the folks most like the ECDers I
> know -- middle-class,
> for the most part. In my contact with the ECD world,
> I've met a few rich
> folks and a few working-class folks, but most of the
> participants have been
> in one or another part of the middle classes.
> 
> I can see the audience for Playford's books shifting
> as the new middle class
> clamored to learn the dances they associated with
> the elite. Perhaps this
> development of a new audience helped keep the books
> in print for so long.
> 
> Peace,
> Paul
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:23:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:53:00 -0330
From: "Martin E. Mulligan" <mulligan-AT-morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04011706bc2e05f820cb-AT-[134.153.160.236]>
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Definitely not in the "bawdy" category but with our group of dancers, which
has at most 2 men among 20 women, we have simplified "I Care not for these
Ladies" to "These Ladies".

As the one who introduced the dance to the group, I could not in any good
conscience stand before them and announce that the next dance was called "I
Care not for these Ladies"!

martin
St. John's, Newfoundland.


=========================================================================
Martin E. Mulligan
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
mulligan-AT-morgan.ucs.mun.ca
=========================================================================
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:24:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:23:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040116212343.80732.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com>
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I should point out that I *think* it's a bassoon --
looks like it to me -- but it could also be a bass
recorder or some other instrument unknown to me.

--- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:21:18 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM writes:
> The frontispieces to the *first* edition of Playford
> shows what looks like a violin and a couple of wind
> instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm
> looking
> at 
>
(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)
> but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat
> Collection
> of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon and
> two violins.  
> My sister has just decided to learn to play the
> bassoon and I had been 
> wondering if, or to what extent it may have been
> used as a continuo instrument.  
> 
> It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and
> playing I have never come 
> across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  Is this an
> instance of an instrument's 
> time which might be able to come around again? I'm
> also wondering if it would 
> be possible to somehow utilize a bassoon with the
> likes of  softer instruments, 
> such as recorder/s. 
> 
> Cheer,
> Deborah
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:50:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:49:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names--Those Ladies
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116214940.31972.qmail-AT-web20610.mail.yahoo.com>
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I always attach a disclaimer--think of the Campion
poem and song that was Kitty Skrobela's inspiration. 
The point of contrast here is not the ladies in front
of us v. some other ladies--it's artificial or
affected women v. the country maid. 
There are some sexual-politics problems with this poem
too--why does the speaker assert that *no* means *yes*
(apparently because Amaryllis is perfectly willing to
give Her All *in private*--but that's tricky too)?
Plus, the speaker also seems to offer two
medium-unattractive choices--either the fine lady who
will cooperate for cash (scarcely better than a
prostitute, that is) or the nut-brown lass who's no
better than she ought to be.
Still, for what it's worth, here's Campion:
"I care not for these ladies  
That must be wooed and prayed; 
Give me kind Amaryllis,  
The wanton country maid. 
Nature Art disdaineth;  
Her beauty is her own. 
Her when we court and kiss,  
She cries, "Forsooth, let go!" 
But when we come where comfort is,  
She never will say no. 

If I love Amaryllis,
She gives me fruit and flowers; 
But if we love these ladies,
We must give golden showers. 
Give them gold that sell love,
Give me the nut-brown lass, 
   Who when we court and kiss,
   She cries, "Forsooth, let go!" 
   But when we come where comfort is,
   She never will say no. 

These ladies must have pillows,
And beds by strangers wrought; 
Give me a bower of willows, 
Of moss and leaves unbought, 
And fresh Amaryllis,
With milk and honey fed; 
   Who when we court and kiss,
   She cries, "Forsooth, let go!" 
   But when we come where comfort is,
   She never will say no." 

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

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Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:54:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:54:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Playford? Villages?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116215426.57879.qmail-AT-web20602.mail.yahoo.com>
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Tom says:
"hmmm...you certainly make a valid point.  My
understanding of Playford's research is that he
travelled around English villages gathering dances
that were done there."
Tom, I think you're confusing John Playford, the
17th-c. publisher, with Cecil Sharp. Sharp collected
folklorically; we don't know exactly how Playford
obtained his dances (except that some seem to have
been done "in Oxford")--but we have absolutely no
evidence that Playford himself went around remote
villages with notebook, pith-helmet, and
butterfly-net. Camden and a few others, in this
period, engaged in studies that might be considered
proto-sociological or proto-folkloric, but not, to our
knowledge, Playford. 

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:24:42 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Playford? Villages?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF0984CA24.44EB57F0-ON85256E1E.0001FE6A-85256E1E.00024118-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Without any factual info, I have always felt that Playford probably didn't
actually do that much collecting himself but had a "scout" or two and/or
perhaps a DM or several who would submit dances to him for publication.
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:48:46 -0800
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names--Those Ladies
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4009757E.9030003-AT-sbcglobal.net>
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Graham Christian wrote:


> If I love Amaryllis,
> She gives me fruit and flowers; 
> But if we love these ladies,
> We must give golden showers. 

Speaking of phrases whose meaning has changed over time . . .

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:35:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040118023537.27292.qmail-AT-web13801.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> wrote:
> We have no info, really, about how much of Playford
> came from genuine peasant dance sources, how much
> he and other dancing masters messed with it....

I am confused. I always thought Playford was a
publisher who saw a way to make a buck by publishing
dances; was he a dancing master as well? 

Lyrl





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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:41:32 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Randy titles
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <93.3826a325.2d3aa39c-AT-aol.com>
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In a message dated 16/1/04 3:03:57 pm, system-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu writes:

<< If there's a prudish cell in my body, it's long since
starved to death, but even I hesitate to call "Would
You Have a Young Virgin", especially when
children/teens are present.  Just curious if others
feel likewise. >>

Oddly enough, I taught that very dance last night! And, of course, the fact 
that Andrew shaw has just republished it ('Mr Kynaston's Famous Dance' - I 
think Vol. II) would seem to indicate that at least two of us over here lack the 
inhibitions which still seem to persist on the other side of the Atlantic :-)

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
<A HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
</A>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:37:40 -0800
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <400972E4.6070408-AT-sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <9.207e1fde.2d397090-AT-aol.com>

Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:

> It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and playing I have never 
> come across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  

My very very favorite ECD recording of all time, "7 to Midnight" by 
Pyewackett, features the bassoon very prominently.  Also hammer dulcimer, 
synth, drums, bass, recorders, fiddles . . . let's just say that anyone who 
entertains any notion that ECD music ought to sound like it did in the 18th 
century is probably not going to like this recording nearly as much as I 
do.  But I think it's brilliant.  Except for the first cut, which is just 
plain embarrassing.  But if you want to hear some top-notch farting-bedpost 
ECD tunes, get this one.

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:45:36 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Playford? Villages?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <007f01c3dc8a$e3d76e90$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040116215426.57879.qmail-AT-web20602.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, I guess I am. I see your point and surrender. :)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham Christian" <bray1699-AT-YAHOO.COM
>
> Tom, I think you're confusing John Playford, the
> 17th-c. publisher, with Cecil Sharp. Sharp collected
> folklorically; we don't know exactly how Playford
> obtained his dances (except that some seem to have
> been done "in Oxford")--but we have absolutely no
> evidence that Playford himself went around remote
> villages with notebook, pith-helmet, and
> butterfly-net. Camden and a few others, in this
> period, engaged in studies that might be considered
> proto-sociological or proto-folkloric, but not, to our
> knowledge, Playford. 
> 
> =====
> Graham Christian
> "They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:02:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:57:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bare Necessities in Pittsburgh PA February 20-22, 2004
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040119.115755.20461.425815-AT-webmail13.nyc.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The Country Dance & Song Society of Pittsburgh invites you to a workshop of English and contra dance with Bare Necessities on February 20-22, 2004. 

Friday, February 20, 8-11 PM: A contra dance called by Carol Kopp. Music by Peter Barnes and Mary Lea. At the Edgewood Club. 

Saturday, February 21, 1-4 PM: ECD workshop at SPCC. 

Saturday, February 21, 8-11 PM: ECD party at SPCC. The evening includes dancing (all dances taught), a pot-luck tea, a cake walk, and other fun. Festive attire is encouraged. 

Sunday, February 22, 11:30-2:30 PM: Advanced ECD workshop at SPCC. 

For more information, maps, and discounted pre-registration, visit our website at www.cdssp.org or contact Maro Avakian at 412-365-2001 (marovak-AT-earthlink.net). 

Hospitality available. We look forward to seeing you there!

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:03:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:30:07 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <616C7B6F.5BA82564.0078596C-AT-aol.com>
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The bassoon dates from the mid-1600s so was certainly found in ensembles of that time.  It was used as a continue instrument when the ensemble was primarily woodwind -- solo oboe or oboe d'amore with harpsichord and bassoon continuo.  Harpsichord and cello (also with violone or contrabass) were more common as continuo instruments especially with solo violin or strings.  Of course, this is especially true for the later Baroque -- Bach, Telemann, Vivaldi Handel.  In general wind and brass ensembles were more outdoor (ie noisy) -- think Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks (winds) or the Water Music (strings and winds). 

There's no reason historically why bassoon wouldn't be part of a dance ensemble.  And certainly no reason why it wouldn't work in our own time.  You'd just need to find a bassoonist who was interested in playing for dances.

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:03:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:20:15 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names--Those Ladies
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <003801c3dca8$d3cdc440$038e4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <20040116214940.31972.qmail-AT-web20610.mail.yahoo.com>

<<I always attach a disclaimer--think of the Campion
poem and song that was Kitty Skrobela's inspiration.
The point of contrast here is not the ladies in front
of us v. some other ladies--it's artificial or
affected women v. the country maid.
There are some sexual-politics problems with this poem
too--why does the speaker assert that *no* means *yes*
(apparently because Amaryllis is perfectly willing to
give Her All *in private*--but that's tricky too)?
Plus, the speaker also seems to offer two
medium-unattractive choices--either the fine lady who
will cooperate for cash (scarcely better than a
prostitute, that is) or the nut-brown lass who's no
better than she ought to be.>>

Of course, the latter, a peasant maid being importuned by a member of the
aristocracy, may have little real choice in the matter, the power
differential being what it was. See, more recently, Strom Thurmond.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:03:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:58:48 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Fw: HMV electrical?
To: ecd list <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000d01c3dd1b$2db380e0$9d904a0c-AT-paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I asked the British record collector Howard Rye when HMV might have switched
to electrical recording. His reply:

<<It's extremely unlikely that there is a single answer to this question
since
there was a worldwide conspiracy to conceal the introduction of electric
recording to avoid making the entire backcatalog simultaneously obsolete.

This may be just a fancy way of saying that none of the sources which I
expected would contain this information actually do!

However, matrix Bb-9458 was recorded between 16 and 23 November 1926 by
comparison with Jack Hylton recording dates. It was therefore certainly
recorded after the introduction of electric recording. The best way to
discover whether it actually is electric is to listen to it but I presume
you can't do that or you wouldn't be asking!

I don't actually have anything of HMV origin from this date to listen to
that I can think of. The Hylton titles on either side - I Must have Forty
Winks and I've Never Seen A Straight Banana - sound eminently resistible.>>

I will add that I've heard "I've Never Seen a Straight Banana", although not
in Hylton's version, and "eminently resistable" is an excellent description.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:03:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:02:19 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000d01c3dca6$52b23b40$038e4a0c-AT-paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com> <008601c3dc69$a4502b20$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam> <40084A82.7060300-AT-sprintmail.com>

<<Your matrix numbers are identical with my "master" numbers. My index
comes from physical examination of the records and contemporary
publications of EFDSS. The year 1927 makes more sense than 1933-4 from
what I know of the technology so perhaps I have  the issue dates rather
than the dates when the masters were cut.

The changeover from acoustical to electrical recording was accompanied
by a changeover in the alpha prefix of the master numbers. You will
probably be able to get that information before I can access my ancient
files.

Thank you for investigating these things.>>

Hi again:

I replied to your previous message before reading this one -- sorry! It may
be that you have the issue dates in the UK; for some reason HMV may have
waited several years while Victor in the USA put them out immediately.
Stranger things have happened!

According to Barr, the Bb series (10" masters, released on HMV) ran
continuously from March, 1921 (assuredly acoustical) to December, 1931
(presumably electrical), after which HMV's matrix numbering system turns
into a real mess. There was a 0B- series running from 1931 to 1934 (that's a
zero, not a letter O, as a prefix), but again according to Barr, they never
got beyond 0B-5900 before they petered out.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:03:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:46:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: yet more on elites
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040116.164706.21043.1003600-AT-webmail05.nyc.untd.com>
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Playford aimed his first publication of 1651 for the "Gentlemen of the Innes of Court," (young men reading law) though he knew full well that "the times" did not agree with the performance of dance (at least on stage at elaborate court masques, although he doesn't quite specify that--and, indeed, the Honored Protectorate, Mr. Cromwell, danced until dawn at his own daughter's (private) wedding). Playford was certainly *not* riding about collecting the dances of peasants--in fact, who in their right (rich) minds at that time would have thought that activity *at all* an interesting or useful thing to do?!--instead he was providing young Gentlemen, who, because of the interruption in their polite education due to the upheavals of the Reformation, might need some helpful tips and instruction in the Polite Arts. The fact that Playford refers to the Activities and Beneficialities of the dances of the Ancient Greeks is a dead giveaway that he is not transcribing the hoppings about o!
 f rural Jack and Joan. It was not till the last 3/4 of the 19th century that we see the (painful) rise of the middle class (hence all those novels of manners as well as etiquette books). Until then, there were pretty much the rich and the poor, with a very very very narrow band in between. And, it is not, in fact, until after WWI that we see the Lower Classes (Americans, Blacks, Jazz Musicians, and Tap Dancers) establishing the trends in dance, fashion and society. 

Allison 
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:03:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:52:16 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000401c3dca4$eb9eb560$038e4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com> <400847DF.6040600-AT-sprintmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Blank <fandango-AT-SPRINTMAIL.COM>

Dawn wrote:

>Here's the technical info, for you & whoever else is interested:
>
>Victor 20444 A/B (The Black Nag & Grimstock/Newcastle & Sweet Kate)
(Bb9458)
>Victor 20445 A/B (Gathering Peascods/Sellenger's Round) (Bb9461)
>Victor 20746 A/B (Confess & Lady in the Dark/Chelsea Reach) (Bb9454)
>
>All performed by the Mayfair Band, arr. Cecil Sharp, recorded in England.
No date of recording given.

And Albert wrote:

<<The numbers of the masters are the numbers you give in parentheses at
the end of each record's data. These can often be found on the space
between the label and the grooves as well as on the label. The Bb code
was used by HMV. Many of the HMV recordings were marketed in the U.S.
under the Victor label and the master numbers were always carried over.
The numbers are in temporal sequence. By bracketing between masters with
known dates, we can tell that these masters were made between June 1933
and April 1934, as I've already written. If the disks were issued under
the HMV label in England, I might be able to get you more precise dates.
I'll check my information when I get a chance and let you know.>>

Hi Albert:

Those dates are different from those in my dating guide (Barr, 1992
edition). He gives these dates for HMV Bb series matrices:

Bb-8480: June, 1926
Bb-10023: January, 1927

And for Victor record numbers:

20400: January, 1927
20650: June, 1927

These square up fairly well with each other; records cut in late 1926 would
likely be issued in early 1927. And it also squares with the dates in the
Online Discographical Project; the two sides of the immediately-preceding
Victor disc, 20443, were cut in January, 1927 and October, 1926,
respectively, while the two sides of the immediately following disc
(interestingly enough, two sides of Virginia Reels) were cut in January of
1927.

(Incidentally, the Online Discographer was clearly unfamiliar with ECD
music; he lists tune names including "Ruftly Tuftly" and "Gathering
Peacocks". But I digress.)

It sounds like I'm splitting hairs that are already split, and so, I guiess,
I am. In any case, C# was not involved with the recording directly, as he
had died in 1924. The only reason the date might matter is that in 1926 the
transition to electrical recording may not have been complete, so my
suggestion re. the use of brass for technical reasons may still have merit.
In 1933/34, however, everyone was recording electrically, so it would have
been an artistically-driven choice rather than a technically-driven one.

What are your sources for the 1933/34 dates, Albert? It may be that mine are
all wet.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:04:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:06:36 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Harpsichord for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <008b01c3dc8d$c6a69050$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
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References: <OFD9C8CD2F.278FCEF3-ON85256E1D.0073AF12-85256E1D.00741292-AT-biogenidec.com>

I don't really mind piano...in fact I enjoy it and neither confuse it with a
harpsichord nor think less of the harpsichord in comparison.  It *does* have
more volume than a harpsichord, but it isn't exactly portable or
weather-resistant, of course.  When I'm dancing outside, don't have a
kick-ass sound system available and have the treat of live musicians,
certain instruments just carry more of a punch that doesn't wither quickly
in the air.

If period authenticity isn't an issue, than modern acoustic instruments that
can be heard well outdoors are just fine with me.  But the period wind
instruments -- especially horns -- plus fiddles are a good balance between
period authenticity, volume and flexibility.

It depends on the setting and the purpose of the dance:  Is it a
demo/performance to show period clothing and dance to visitors at a
historical manor or a casual, monthly dance at a local hall?

I cherish good musicianship and performances -- hard to beat Bare
Necessities in either category -- so I'm saddened whenever good ECD
recordings are played on tinny boomboxes or crappy PA systems.  I invested
in a wonderful THX-certified set of speakers with a free-standing sub-woofer
and rip my MP3s at 160 kbps or better.  If you haven't heard Bare
Necessities or other high-quality ECD over a high-end set of speakers -- 
ESPECIALLY with a sub-woofer or 3-ways with a 12"+ bass speaker -- you don't
know what you're missing.

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Campbell Kaynor" <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM
>
>
> I agree that the harpsichord was an unlikely instrument for ECD except
> perhaps in some chamber halls with an instrument already resident.
> Certainly outdoors is not one of these. Poor portability, non-weather
> resistant, constant tuning and action adjustments, etc... all argue for
> only rare instances - like our annual ball. I just don't get it about
> horsepower and volume. The baroque recorders do a poor job outdoors as
well
> and the wind tends to interfere with air passage over the fipple and yet I
> don't hear people saying they are unlikely and/or inappropriate
instruments
> for ECD. If I need volume and horsepower, I usually use tabor pipe or
fife.
> This is a matter of common sense and necessity just as I might use
> amplification to allow me to play a tenor recorder in situations where it
> would otherwise be uselessly inaudible.
>
> But the other instruments you mention are ones from which you expect to
> hear melody (or rhythm in the case of the drum). Is that what you expect
> the Harpsichord to "project." I guess that is where we disagree because as
> I said before, I believe the role of this instrument is to provide mainly
> "texture" to the sound of the ensemble. This is the quality it is suited
to
> project even in the presence of a string orchestra. If you want to hear
> melody, give the harpsichordist a solo round.
> Maybe the flip side is that this is why I dislike piano so much for ECD.
> The pianists tend to "project" their music and change the baroque blend
> more than any other modern instrument. Could it be that you are listening
> for the piano in the playing of the harpsichord?
>
> Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:04:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:19:17 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF97D188FE.F238C790-ON85256E1E.0001B88C-85256E1E.0001C25F-AT-biogenidec.com>
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The basoon would be distinctive from its double reed sound.



                                                                                                                                  
                      Tom Vincent                                                                                                 
                      <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>        To:       ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu                                       
                      Sent by:                       cc:                                                                          
                      owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.s        Subject:  Re: bassoon for  ECD?                                              
                      tanford.edu                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                  
                      16-Jan-2004 04:23 PM                                                                                        
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                  




I should point out that I *think* it's a bassoon --
looks like it to me -- but it could also be a bass
recorder or some other instrument unknown to me.

--- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:21:18 AM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM writes:
> The frontispieces to the *first* edition of Playford
> shows what looks like a violin and a couple of wind
> instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm
> looking
> at
>
(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)
> but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat
> Collection
> of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon and
> two violins.
> My sister has just decided to learn to play the
> bassoon and I had been
> wondering if, or to what extent it may have been
> used as a continuo instrument.
>
> It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and
> playing I have never come
> across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  Is this an
> instance of an instrument's
> time which might be able to come around again? I'm
> also wondering if it would
> be possible to somehow utilize a bassoon with the
> likes of  softer instruments,
> such as recorder/s.
>
> Cheer,
> Deborah
>


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the
Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants.

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 03:15:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:14:40 +0000
From: Graham Knight <graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: yet more on elites
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAD+ekJyEdP02bYZMUrV+LCcKAAAAQAAAA33BzA/nJLk2jooD40gIViQEAAAAA-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>
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Just a matter of historical accuracy; these Gentlemen would have been
extremely old if they had had their education interrupted during the
Reformation!!! The Reformation was during the 16th Century in the reign
of Henry VIII (the Eighth).

The period of political upheaval in the 17th Century in Britain was the
English civil war followed by the Commonwealth (Interregnum)of Oliver
Cromwell.

Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of
allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Sent: 17 January 2004 00:47
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: yet more on elites


Playford aimed his first publication of 1651 for the "Gentlemen of the
Innes of Court," (young men reading law) though he knew full well that
"the times" did not agree with the performance of dance (at least on
stage at elaborate court masques, although he doesn't quite specify
that--and, indeed, the Honored Protectorate, Mr. Cromwell, danced until
dawn at his own daughter's (private) wedding). Playford was certainly
*not* riding about collecting the dances of peasants--in fact, who in
their right (rich) minds at that time would have thought that activity
*at all* an interesting or useful thing to do?!--instead he was
providing young Gentlemen, who, because of the interruption in their
polite education due to the upheavals of the Reformation, might need
some helpful tips and instruction in the Polite Arts. The fact that
Playford refers to the Activities and Beneficialities of the dances of
the Ancient Greeks is a dead giveaway that he is not transcribing the
hoppings about o!
 f rural Jack and Joan. It was not till the last 3/4 of the 19th century
that we see the (painful) rise of the middle class (hence all those
novels of manners as well as etiquette books). Until then, there were
pretty much the rich and the poor, with a very very very narrow band in
between. And, it is not, in fact, until after WWI that we see the Lower
Classes (Americans, Blacks, Jazz Musicians, and Tap Dancers)
establishing the trends in dance, fashion and society. 

Allison 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 05:49:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 05:48:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040120134852.34357.qmail-AT-web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

And just how would I 'hear' the instrument in a
woodcut? ;>

--- Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM>
wrote:
> 
> The basoon would be distinctive from its double reed
> sound.
>                         
>                       Tom Vincent                   
>                                                     
>                         
>                       <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>       
> To:       ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu              
>                         
>                       Sent by:                      
> cc:                                                 
>                         
>                       owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.s       
> Subject:  Re: bassoon for  ECD?                     
>                         
>                       tanford.edu                   
>                       16-Jan-2004 04:23 PM          
>                       Please respond to ECD         
> 
> I should point out that I *think* it's a bassoon --
> looks like it to me -- but it could also be a bass
> recorder or some other instrument unknown to me.
> 
> --- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> > In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:21:18 AM Eastern
> > Standard Time,
> > tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM writes:
> > The frontispieces to the *first* edition of
> Playford
> > shows what looks like a violin and a couple of
> wind
> > instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm
> > looking
> > at
> >
>
(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)
> > but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat
> > Collection
> > of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon
> and
> > two violins.
> > My sister has just decided to learn to play the
> > bassoon and I had been
> > wondering if, or to what extent it may have been
> > used as a continuo instrument.
> >
> > It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and
> > playing I have never come
> > across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  Is this
> an
> > instance of an instrument's
> > time which might be able to come around again? I'm
> > also wondering if it would
> > be possible to somehow utilize a bassoon with the
> > likes of  softer instruments,
> > such as recorder/s.
> >
> > Cheer,
> > Deborah
> >


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 05:52:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:48:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: yet more on elites
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040120.054954.25056.1727628-AT-webmail20.nyc.untd.com>
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oh, pooh! Reformation, Restoration, Protectorate....whatEVER!

You are quite right.

A
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 06:30:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 06:30:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names--Those Ladies
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040120143016.94537.qmail-AT-web20609.mail.yahoo.com>
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"Of course, the latter, a peasant maid being
importuned by a member of the aristocracy, may have
little real choice in the matter, the power
differential being what it was. See, more recently,
Strom Thurmond."
True--although we do have here an *imaginary* maid in
a rather idealized pastoral scene. Still, as I said,
the Campion has plenty of its own sexual-politics
problems. 

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 06:56:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 06:55:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Randy titles
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Well, good for you, Nicolas!  I have been studying it,
but just didn't get comfortable with it in time to
call -- last night (the 19th) as well.  I'm afraid I
just don't have the reputation/respect built up here
enough to risk alienating anyone by calling a dance
with a scandalous name -- much as it would tickle me
to do so!  And to go out of my way to do so would
probably brand me as creepy.  It can wait. :)

Maybe the edition is different over here in the
colonies, but it's in Vol. I here (the second volume
is 'The She Favourite').  I think it's amusing that
Belshazzar's Feast did a mirror image of the manual's
cover and then put a beard on the female dancer.  I'm
sure there's an inside joke there. :)

--- SallenNic-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 16/1/04 3:03:57 pm,
> system-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu writes:
> 
> << If there's a prudish cell in my body, it's long
> since
> starved to death, but even I hesitate to call "Would
> You Have a Young Virgin", especially when
> children/teens are present.  Just curious if others
> feel likewise. >>
> 
> Oddly enough, I taught that very dance last night!
> And, of course, the fact 
> that Andrew shaw has just republished it ('Mr
> Kynaston's Famous Dance' - I 
> think Vol. II) would seem to indicate that at least
> two of us over here lack the 
> inhibitions which still seem to persist on the other
> side of the Atlantic :-)
> 
> Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
> <A
>
HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
> </A>


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:27:31 PST
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:27:05 -0600 (CST)
From: jsivier-AT-uiuc.edu (Jonathan Sivier)
Subject: Re: Playford? Villages?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <200401201527.i0KFR5ee027890-AT-staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Campbell Kaynor writes:
> 
> Without any factual info, I have always felt that Playford probably didn't
> actually do that much collecting himself but had a "scout" or two and/or
> perhaps a DM or several who would submit dances to him for publication.

   I seem to recall, vaguely, reading somewhere that his wife was a dancing
master (or mistress).  Does anyone know more about that or am I just
imagining it?

Jonathan

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:44:59 PST
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:41:45 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Playfords wife
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040120.074207.25056.1729982-AT-webmail20.nyc.untd.com>
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I have never seen anything about Playford's wife being a dancing master & would find it hard to believe--I've never seen anything at all ever about female dancing masters (as in women who would advertise their services & be paid for them) until the early 20th century, with the women who graduated from Gilbert's School and/or the Columbia Teachers College and went on to teach physical education/dance.

Ladies just didn't work/perform in public. 

Allison 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:47:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:47:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mrs. Playford...
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Mrs. Playford did at one point run a school, the
curriculum of which did include dancing. It is a
little hard to know what sort of dancing that was, of
course, without more evidence. 
My subject header is an intentional gaffe, by the
way---in the period, "Mrs." was simply an abbreviation
for "Mistress," and might indicate a married or
unmarried woman.

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:14:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:11:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mrs. Playford...
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040120.081206.25056.1730714-AT-webmail20.nyc.untd.com>
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It is also hard to know if Mrs P taught--every reference I've seen to girls' finishing schools in 18th and 19th centuries refers to employing dancing and music masters in girls' schools (with the corresponding problem of the girls running off with them). *Possibly* French or Italian might be taught by a mistress. Certainly the use of the globes, needlework, crafts, etc. would be taught by a mistress (but, again, this is a lady teaching within the confines of a home-like atmosphere and teaching girls, not adult women and certainly not men.) And a "Mistress Playford's School for Girls" does not necessarily mean that Mrs P herself taught anything...think of horrible Miss Minchin and poor dear Sara Crewe.

Sticking to her "Ladies Never Work" Guns....

Allison

(Working in a lady-like fashion from the home with the heat off and fingers stiffening.)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:47:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:47:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mrs. Playford...&c &c
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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It's true that we can't know what La Playford's role
was vis-a-vis her school. As for women working as
educators, there was the tradition of the "Dame
School," reaching back at least to the seventeenth
century, in which even rather poor children, male and
female, might obtain at least the rudiments of
literacy. But we are getting beyond the scope of the
list--there is *no* evidence and very little
likelihood that these "Dames" ever taught any dance to
anyone, male, female, child, or adult.    

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:03:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:03:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mrs. Playford...
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Maybe both at the same time.  Married to one, mistress
to another. ;>

--- Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com> wrote:

> My subject header is an intentional gaffe, by the
> way---in the period, "Mrs." was simply an
> abbreviation
> for "Mistress," and might indicate a married or
> unmarried woman.



=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:07:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:07:33 +0000
From: Graham Knight <graham-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Playford? Villages?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAD+ekJyEdP02bYZMUrV+LCcKAAAAQAAAAidji8D5cjkySLAspUPBEiwEAAAAA-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>
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I seem to remember finding a reference to an Eleanor (?) Playford who
applied for permission to print books on Mathematics and Algebra. From
memory it was late in the 17th Century, about 1680. Off hand I cannot
remember when John died but had wondered whether she was continuing the
printing business in her own right after his death.

I would have thought it unlikely that she would have been a Dancing
Mistress due to the constraints on women at that time.

Graham Knight

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Sivier
Sent: 20 January 2004 15:27
To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Playford? Villages?

Campbell Kaynor writes:
> 
> Without any factual info, I have always felt that Playford probably
didn't
> actually do that much collecting himself but had a "scout" or two
and/or
> perhaps a DM or several who would submit dances to him for
publication.

   I seem to recall, vaguely, reading somewhere that his wife was a
dancing
master (or mistress).  Does anyone know more about that or am I just
imagining it?

Jonathan

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:38:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:35:25 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001401c3df7b$ca7f07c0$63904a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <OF97D188FE.F238C790-ON85256E1E.0001B88C-85256E1E.0001C25F-AT-biogenidec.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-BIOGENIDEC.COM>

(Talking about the illustration on the frontispiece of 1st ed. Playford):

<<I should point out that I *think* it's a bassoon --
looks like it to me -- but it could also be a bass
recorder or some other instrument unknown to me.>>

The player is blowing into the end, rather than using the hooked mouthpiece
I usually associate with a bassoon. Were bassoons in that era constructed
differently?  Could this perhaps be a serpent?

By the way, here's a corrected URL if you want to go look:

http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/

Peace,
Paul

--- Dfhart24-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
> In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:21:18 AM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM writes:
> The frontispieces to the *first* edition of Playford
> shows what looks like a violin and a couple of wind
> instruments (hard to tell from the picture I'm
> looking
> at
>
(http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/)
> but the 1780 cover of "Thompson's Compleat
> Collection
> of 200 Favourite Country Dances" shows a bassoon and
> two violins.
> My sister has just decided to learn to play the
> bassoon and I had been
> wondering if, or to what extent it may have been
> used as a continuo instrument.
>
> It occurs to me that in my years of dancing and
> playing I have never come
> across an ECD band that uses a bassoon.  Is this an
> instance of an instrument's
> time which might be able to come around again? I'm
> also wondering if it would
> be possible to somehow utilize a bassoon with the
> likes of  softer instruments,
> such as recorder/s.
>
> Cheer,
> Deborah
>


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the
Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants.

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:57:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:54:35 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Randy titles
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <004d01c3df7e$78119f40$63904a0c-AT-paulstam>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>

<<Maybe the edition is different over here in the
colonies, but it's in Vol. I here (the second volume
is 'The She Favourite').  I think it's amusing that
Belshazzar's Feast did a mirror image of the manual's
cover and then put a beard on the female dancer.  I'm
sure there's an inside joke there. :)>>

I've heard tales of the two Pauls dressing in spectacular drag, so I assume
the two figures are meant to represent them.

Peace,
Paul (the third one)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:01:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:02:04 -0800
From: Carl Friedman <carlsfriedman-AT-clinical-md.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: test - please ignore
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <E621BC03-4B8B-11D8-A35A-003065D15B12-AT-clinical-md.com>
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test

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:27:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:26:53 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD? - oops
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF7F4B3CFD.AB4F9E42-ON85256E21.00692013-85256E21.006ACAFE-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Tom says:
And just how would I 'hear' the instrument in a
woodcut? ;>

You have to listen really carefully, and it helps to have a wooden ear!

CK

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:59:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:56:05 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD? - oops
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a06002000bc33382e5aee-AT-[140.186.54.217]>
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So you need a tin ear to hear the bassoon on an etching?!
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
mailto:elf-AT-cape.com
508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography 
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:25:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:25:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD? - oops
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040120202535.76126.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com>
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I think a tin ear would work better for a flugelhorn
painted with lead paint on copper.  To hear a
double-reed instrument in an etching, I agree that a
wooden ear (maybe two) is more appropriate.

Not to egg any punster on or push this yolk any
further, but what about tempera-painted instruments? 


--- "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-CAPE.COM> wrote:
> So you need a tin ear to hear the bassoon on an
> etching?!
> -- 
> Emily L. Ferguson
> mailto:elf-AT-cape.com
> 508-563-6822
> New England landscapes, wooden boats and races,
> press photography 
> http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:49:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:25:03 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD? - oops
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <a0521062bbc334c7ee488-AT-[192.168.1.18]>
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At 12:25 PM -0800 1/20/04, Tom Vincent wrote:
>I think a tin ear would work better for a flugelhorn
>painted with lead paint on copper.  To hear a
>double-reed instrument in an etching, I agree that a
>wooden ear (maybe two) is more appropriate.
>
>Not to egg any punster on or push this yolk any
>further, but what about tempera-painted instruments?

Wood those be equally-tempera'd, or mean?  I thought we were talking 
about woodwinds, not strings.  I think an instrument painted with 
lead paint on copper would have a brassy sound, and if you used 
egg-tempera, it would also be rather dark.

-- 
--Mike Bergman

"Of course he has a website.  We *all* have websites.  It's the dawn 
of the 21st  century, and we're all barbarians!"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:08:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:07:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD? - oops
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040120220716.99209.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maybe a well-tempera'd Clavier, but let's get Bach to
the original question.

 
--- Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-mit.edu> wrote:
> At 12:25 PM -0800 1/20/04, Tom Vincent wrote:
> >I think a tin ear would work better for a
> flugelhorn
> >painted with lead paint on copper.  To hear a
> >double-reed instrument in an etching, I agree that
> a
> >wooden ear (maybe two) is more appropriate.
> >
> >Not to egg any punster on or push this yolk any
> >further, but what about tempera-painted
> instruments?
> 
> Wood those be equally-tempera'd, or mean?  I thought
> we were talking 
> about woodwinds, not strings.  I think an instrument
> painted with 
> lead paint on copper would have a brassy sound, and
> if you used 
> egg-tempera, it would also be rather dark.
> 
> -- 
> --Mike Bergman
> 
> "Of course he has a website.  We *all* have
> websites.  It's the dawn 
> of the 21st  century, and we're all barbarians!"


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:33:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:34:35 -0800
From: Carl Friedman <carlfriedman-AT-alumni.williams.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: test - please ignore - sorry
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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test 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:16:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:13:40 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: bassoon for  ECD? - oops
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000b01c3dff6$7b9ad780$908c4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <20040120202535.76126.qmail-AT-web12204.mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>

<<Not to egg any punster on or push this yolk any
further, but what about tempera-painted instruments? >>

Batter is not included.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:18:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:18:25 +0000 (GMT)
From: mab-AT-tgis.co.uk
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Randy titles
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1074691105.89.13089-mab-AT-galahad>
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Wou'd you have a young Virgin; Or, Poor Robin's Maggot
The Dancing Master, Vol, the Second, 3rd edn, 1719
Printed by John Pearson, Published by John Walsh

Michael Barraclough
http://www.michaelbarraclough.com


At Tue, 20 Jan 2004 06:55:40 -0800 (PST), Tom Vincent
<tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Well, good for you, Nicolas!  I have been studying it,
> but just didn't get comfortable with it in time to
> call -- last night (the 19th) as well.  I'm afraid I
> just don't have the reputation/respect built up here
> enough to risk alienating anyone by calling a dance
> with a scandalous name -- much as it would tickle me
> to do so!  And to go out of my way to do so would
> probably brand me as creepy.  It can wait. :)
> 
> Maybe the edition is different over here in the
> colonies, but it's in Vol. I here (the second volume
> is 'The She Favourite').  I think it's amusing that
> Belshazzar's Feast did a mirror image of the manual's
> cover and then put a beard on the female dancer.  I'm
> sure there's an inside joke there. :)
> 
> --- SallenNic-AT-AOL.COM wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 16/1/04 3:03:57 pm,
>> system-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu writes:
>> 
>> << If there's a prudish cell in my body, it's long
>> since
>> starved to death, but even I hesitate to call "Would
>> You Have a Young Virgin", especially when
>> children/teens are present.  Just curious if others
>> feel likewise. >>
>> 
>> Oddly enough, I taught that very dance last night!
>> And, of course, the fact 
>> that Andrew shaw has just republished it ('Mr
>> Kynaston's Famous Dance' - I 
>> think Vol. II) would seem to indicate that at least
>> two of us over here lack the 
>> inhibitions which still seem to persist on the other
>> side of the Atlantic :-)
>> 
>> Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland
>> <A
>>
>
HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
>> </A>
> 
> 
> =====
> Tom Vincent
> 
> "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
> -- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the 
> +Pentagon refuses 
> +to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 
> 
> http://www.deanforamerica.com
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:03:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:07:33 -0500
From: Albert Blank <fandango-AT-sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <400E87A5.EBB528E2-AT-sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com> <008601c3dc69$a4502b20$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam> <40084A82.7060300-AT-sprintmail.com> <000d01c3dca6$52b23b40$038e4a0c-AT-paulstam>

From Paul Stamler:

> Hi again:
> 
> I replied to your previous message before reading this one -- sorry! It may
> be that you have the issue dates in the UK; for some reason HMV may have
> waited several years while Victor in the USA put them out immediately.
> Stranger things have happened!
> 
> According to Barr, the Bb series (10" masters, released on HMV) ran
> continuously from March, 1921 (assuredly acoustical) to December, 1931
> (presumably electrical), after which HMV's matrix numbering system turns
> into a real mess. There was a 0B- series running from 1931 to 1934 (that's a
> zero, not a letter O, as a prefix), but again according to Barr, they never
> got beyond 0B-5900 before they petered out.
> 
> Peace,
> Paul
> 

Thanks for restimulating an old interest. I have copies of most of the
ECDs in the Bb series and am now tempted to listen to these to see
whether the changeover occurred before the transtion to OB, My
unreliable memory says, "No." I'm quite certain, though, that none of
the military band recordings were electrical, though some were musically
delightful. Somehow, I'll have to find the time for this. 

The dates I have come from the announcements of new issues in the EFDSS
journal, whatever its name in those days. Again, I need a little time to
research the references.

All the best
Albert Blank

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:55:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:54:31 -0500
From: Torbin Zimmerman <tzimmerman-AT-cogeco.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: A Tariff of Indulgences?
To: ECD List - Post <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <B8608A64-4C21-11D8-9838-000393ADEE78-AT-cogeco.ca>
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--Boundary_(ID_02Qe7NGjdgQKjPyljkFMRw)
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The following is from the Niagara (Canada) Herald, Jan. 24, 1801 under 
the heading "Miscellaneous from London Papers":

"The Public is very ungrateful to our fair country-women. It seems 
never to be contented with the portion of charms they think fit to 
conceal or to discover. A reverend divine has lately expressed his 
indignation  against naked elbows; and we lately read the complaint of 
a public writer against nett-gloves (sic). We recommend it therefore to 
the consideration of the committee for weights and measures, whether a 
common standard could not be hit upon for female dress throughout the 
kingdom. It would not be necessary that every handkerchief and 
petticoat should be full Winchester measure, but that every lady, 
whether tall or short, lusty or slender, should be obliged to wear a 
covering over the given part of a gross quantity of her beauty. What 
proportion the lawful charms shall bear to the contraband, might be 
settled by the commercial commissioners, as well as the penalties for 
contravention; and an absolute prohibition of the elbow, or any other 
spot equally offensive to tender brothers. There might also be a tarif 
(sic) of indulgences or commutations, by which any fair-trader, making 
oath that she has retrenched the full space of an inch upon the bosom, 
or over the ancle (sic) shall be allowed a drawback upon the arm or 
shoulder, ad valerem upon a scale to be adjusted upon the different 
importance of the commodities thus ware-housed or exposed."

I found this while researching dance in early Canada using the Paper of 
Record website (www.paperofrecord.com) , which offers - for a fee- 
digitized copies of over seven million newspaper pages from nine 
countries, including UK, USA, and Canada.

Torbin Zimmerman

--Boundary_(ID_02Qe7NGjdgQKjPyljkFMRw)
Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII
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The following is from the Niagara (Canada) Herald, Jan. 24, 1801 under
the heading "Miscellaneous from London Papers":


"The Public is very ungrateful to our fair country-women. It seems
never to be contented with the portion of charms they think fit to
conceal or to discover. A reverend divine has lately expressed his
indignation  against naked elbows; and we lately read the complaint of
a public writer against nett-gloves (sic). We recommend it therefore
to the consideration of the committee for weights and measures,
whether a common standard could not be hit upon for female dress
throughout the kingdom. It would not be necessary that every
handkerchief and petticoat should be full <italic>Winchester</italic>
measure, but that every lady, whether tall or short, lusty or slender,
should be obliged to wear a covering over the given part of a gross
quantity of her beauty. What proportion the lawful charms shall bear
to the contraband, might be settled by the commercial commissioners,
as well as the penalties for contravention; and an absolute
prohibition of the elbow, or any other spot equally offensive to
tender brothers. There might also be a tarif (sic) of indulgences or
commutations, by which any fair-trader, making oath that she has
retrenched the full space of an inch upon the bosom, or over the ancle
(sic) shall be allowed a drawback upon the arm or shoulder, <italic>ad
valerem</italic> upon a scale to be adjusted upon the different
importance of the commodities thus ware-housed or exposed."


I found this while researching dance in early Canada using the Paper
of Record website (www.paperofrecord.com) , which offers - for a fee-
digitized copies of over seven million newspaper pages from nine
countries, including UK, USA, and Canada.


Torbin Zimmerman

--Boundary_(ID_02Qe7NGjdgQKjPyljkFMRw)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:09:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:15:07 +0100
From: Simone Verheyen <simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: A Bob Lilley dance
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <LPBBLJBHNCEFOEMJDEALAEKMDIAA.simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi everybody,

who can help me ?

I'm looking for the instructions for a dance by Bob Lilley, entitled "the
Beginner's Nightmare", or "the Beginners' Nightmare".
Years ago, a friend gave them to me. It's a 4-couple longways dance.  It's
fun to do, it works, but I think there's something wrong in the progression.


If you have instructions for this dance, please send them to me.

Thanks a lot !

Simone Verheyen (Belgium)

simoneverheyen-AT-pi.be

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:32:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:29:32 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: English dance 78s
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001201c3e044$22bb3d00$565d4a0c-AT-paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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References: <20040116.105520.9511.487172-AT-webmail08.lax.untd.com> <008601c3dc69$a4502b20$268c4a0c-AT-paulstam> <40084A82.7060300-AT-sprintmail.com> <000d01c3dca6$52b23b40$038e4a0c-AT-paulstam> <400E87A5.EBB528E2-AT-sprintmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Albert Blank <fandango-AT-SPRINTMAIL.COM>

<<Thanks for restimulating an old interest. I have copies of most of the
ECDs in the Bb series and am now tempted to listen to these to see
whether the changeover occurred before the transtion to OB, My
unreliable memory says, "No." I'm quite certain, though, that none of
the military band recordings were electrical, though some were musically
delightful. Somehow, I'll have to find the time for this. >>

Has it occurred to anyone that these should not have been in the Bb series,
but rather in the C#?

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:31:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:31:49 -0500
From: Carolyn Worthing <worthing-AT-mindspring.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Shoe Covers, bulk resource
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <DFEGIGJHKDPBEPKCDDOJGEEMCLAA.worthing-AT-mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This for Sol, but should anyone else care to go into the "safe shoe" biz,
here a link and the crucial data:

S-7873    Shoe Covers - Universal (fits size 1-11) 150 pairs/case
Price Per CASE
Price $45.00

Description:  elasticized polypropylene booties slip on easily.
              non-skid bottom prevents slipping

 this from a catalog that mysteriously made it to my mailbox today, why I
haven't a clue!

Carolyn Worthing


http://www.uline.com/AdvSearchResult.asp?Ref=Pwrshp&Source=ALL&keywords=shoe
+covers

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The original executable file attached to this messsage
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If you were expecting this file please forward this
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and forwarded on to you if it is clean. 

Do _NOT_ request the file from us unless this is for
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:45:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:14:19 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <015101c3e089$534618b0$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040118023537.27292.qmail-AT-web13801.mail.yahoo.com>

You know, Paul, you bring up an excellent point...one I've fallen prey to as
well as other folk:  Playford didn't *collect* the dances, Playford didn't
*edit* the dances.  He simply *published* them.  Do we know -anything- about
the contributors to the work?  Or did the title of 'publisher' mean
something different in 1651?

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lyrl Ahern" <lyrl-AT-YAHOO.COM>
To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music


>
> --- Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> wrote:
> > We have no info, really, about how much of Playford
> > came from genuine peasant dance sources, how much
> > he and other dancing masters messed with it....
>
> I am confused. I always thought Playford was a
> publisher who saw a way to make a buck by publishing
> dances; was he a dancing master as well?
>
> Lyrl
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 02:52:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:52:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: mab-AT-tgis.co.uk
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1074768735.23.35546-mab-AT-galahad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As far as I can tell, the term "publisher" meant much the same in 1651 as
it does now.  However, the following analogy (from the late Tom Cook) with
the Penguin book of Crossword puzzles may help make some sense of what we
get in the 1st edition of the Dancing Master.

Penguin is the publisher, BUT ...
there are different editors over time
there are different contributors in one book
there are different standards of difficulty
there are different types of crossword

Playford (and successors) may also have been the editor, ie the person who
MODIFYS what was originally presented by the contributor.

There are definitely different contributors in the 1st edition of the
(English) Dancing Master.  We can tell this from the variety of language
used.

There are clearly different levels of difficulty.

There are certainly different types of dance.  Indeed, some of the may not
actually be "country dances" at all.  [Just because a book containing
recipies and some poems is called a Recipie Book does not make the poems
into recipies.]

Michael Barraclough
http://www.michaelbarraclough.com



At Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:14:19 -0500, Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
wrote:
> You know, Paul, you bring up an excellent point...one I've fallen prey to

> +as
> well as other folk:  Playford didn't *collect* the dances, Playford
didn't
> *edit* the dances.  He simply *published* them.  Do we know -anything- 
> +about
> the contributors to the work?  Or did the title of 'publisher' mean
> something different in 1651?
> 
> Tom
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lyrl Ahern" <lyrl-AT-YAHOO.COM>
> To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
> 
> 
>>
>> --- Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> wrote:
>> > We have no info, really, about how much of Playford
>> > came from genuine peasant dance sources, how much
>> > he and other dancing masters messed with it....
>>
>> I am confused. I always thought Playford was a
>> publisher who saw a way to make a buck by publishing
>> dances; was he a dancing master as well?
>>
>> Lyrl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
>> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:50:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:49:34 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: publishers then and now (was Re: arrangements for English Dance music)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401221043360.8941-AT-tucson.Princeton.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <1074768735.23.35546-mab-AT-galahad>

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 mab-AT-TGIS.CO.UK wrote:

> As far as I can tell, the term "publisher" meant much the same in 1651 as
> it does now.

Agreed. The main difference I see between publishers like Playford and
modern ones is that the latter identify their contributors and editors.

Susie Lorand
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 08:01:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 08:01:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040122160109.68970.qmail-AT-web12202.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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But does 'publisher' imply 'editor'?  I think it meant
today's 'bookseller' more than today's 'publisher'
(distributor/middleman).  The subtitle of the book
even says: 'Printed by Thomas Harper, and are to be
sold by John Playford, at his Shop in the Inner Temple
neere the Church doore, 1651'.

Here are some possible implications/postulates:

1.  JP was interested in dancing enough to publish a
book of dances.

2.  JP saw a market for a dance book and gambled on
making a profit, especially at the nearby Inns of
Court.  This is similar to a bookseller who isn't a
teacher but finds himself next to a college:  He's
going to stock textbooks...and maybe try to publish
one that fits an unmet need of his market.

3. JP was well-versed in teaching dance, so he was
intimately involved in editing the book he published.

As for the term 'Country Dances':  I think that it was
generic and described a style of dancing, just as
'Country Music' today doesn't reflect 'country music'
of years gone by.

--- mab-AT-TGIS.CO.UK wrote:

> As far as I can tell, the term "publisher" meant
> much the same in 1651 as
> it does now.  However, the following analogy (from
> the late Tom Cook) with
> the Penguin book of Crossword puzzles may help make
> some sense of what we
> get in the 1st edition of the Dancing Master.
> 
> Penguin is the publisher, BUT ...
> there are different editors over time
> there are different contributors in one book
> there are different standards of difficulty
> there are different types of crossword
> 
> Playford (and successors) may also have been the
> editor, ie the person who
> MODIFYS what was originally presented by the
> contributor.
> 
> There are definitely different contributors in the
> 1st edition of the
> (English) Dancing Master.  We can tell this from the
> variety of language
> used.
> 
> There are clearly different levels of difficulty.
> 
> There are certainly different types of dance. 
> Indeed, some of the may not
> actually be "country dances" at all.  [Just because
> a book containing
> recipies and some poems is called a Recipie Book
> does not make the poems
> into recipies.]
> 
> Michael Barraclough
> http://www.michaelbarraclough.com




=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:10:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:11:21 -0500
From: Jack <jack-AT-greenmanreview.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: publishers then and now (was Re: arrangements for English Dance music)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04011712bc35c294df00-AT-[10.0.1.34]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <1074768735.23.35546-mab-AT-galahad>

>Agreed. The main difference I see between publishers like Playford and
>modern ones is that the latter identify their contributors and editors.

Not always -- much of the sharecropped fantasy and sf fiction uses only the publisher as an identifier.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:26:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:25:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Dance Announcement
To: talkback-AT-whyy.org, englishcountrydance-AT-yahoogroups.com, ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, kwalker-AT-delawreonline.com, newpost-AT-dca.net, ud-wvud-AT-udel.edu, wdelnews-AT-wdel.com, devonuu-AT-mluc.org, uucdc-AT-msn.com, office-AT-ufwc.org, uufnewark-AT-aol.com, minister-AT-uusmc.org, reporter-AT-patuxent.com, sgcc-AT-delawareonline.com, grwillow-AT-dca.net, delarts-AT-juno.com, contact-AT-about-and-about.com, shominik-AT-delawareonline.com, editors-AT-delawaretoday.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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English Country Dance (plus) - Second Thursdays

Dates: Feb 12, Mar 11 and Apr 8.  

We'll be doing English Country Dancing, International
Folk Dancing and Italian Renaissance Dancing.  
Five hundred years or five thousand miles!

All are welcome, especially beginners!

Casual attire.  Please feel free to bring snacks and
soft drinks.

Location:  
First Unitarian Church
730 Halstead Rd
Wilmington DE 19803
478-2384

Time:
7-9:30pm

Directions (From I-95):
North on Concord Pike (202) to the light at Whitby
Road (If you see a shopping center on the left with a
Staple's, you went too far).  Make a left and go about
a block.  Church is on the left.  Plenty of parking on
street or across the street.  Go through the big
doors.

Cost:  
Free, but donations welcome

Contact:
Tom Vincent
302-379-6294



=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

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Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:46:39 PST
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:01:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Tom wrote:

> But does 'publisher' imply 'editor'?  I think it meant
> today's 'bookseller' more than today's 'publisher'
> (distributor/middleman).  The subtitle of the book
> even says: 'Printed by Thomas Harper, and are to be
> sold by John Playford, at his Shop in the Inner Temple
> neere the Church doore, 1651'.

I'm not sure it means 'bookseller' _more_ than it does today.
Playford had a shop; modern publishers have a catalog, reps who
sell to bookstores, magazine ads, relationships with paperback
distributors, etc, etc.  (The "Printed by Thomas Harper" is 
irrelevant to a 17th-century/21st-century comparison, since few
publishers nowadays own their own presses.)  Even aside from 
that comparison, it might be worth pointing out that Barnes & Noble
publishes books for sale in their own bookstore (largely cheaper reprint
editions, but some commissioned material including, to drag this 
paragraph back on topic, a social-dance book).


> Here are some possible implications/postulates:

> 1.  JP was interested in dancing enough to publish a
> book of dances.

This is either tautological (he published it and thus must have been
interested enough to publish it) or assuming its premise.  If Random
House under Bennett Cerf had published a book on fire safety, would
that necessarily mean Bennett Cerf had a special interest in fire 
safety?  It would mean Bennett Cerf thought Random House could make a 
buck off it.

We know of Playford as a dance publisher; he's also (perhaps more readily)
thought of as a music publisher.  Here's a bit from a bio I found online:

-------------------------------
Music publisher and bookseller, clerk to the Temple Church and Vicar-Choral of
St Paul's Cathedral. In 1639 he was apprenticed for seven years to John Benson,
a London publisher, and in 1647 became a member of the Yeomanry of the
Stationers' Company.

As a Royalist, Playford began publishing political tracts, culminating in "The
Perfect Narrative of the Tryal of the King". This was an age when music
publishing was part of the more general field of book publishing, a situation
changing by the time of his son Henry.
-------------------------------

A quick google on "Vicar-Choral" shows that this has often been a joint
appointment with "Organist" or "Choir Master", and it shows up in some composer
biographies.  I couldn't find a description of the duties, but I think it's 
pretty safe to say that Playford was interested in and knowledgeable about
music.  For his burial, Purcell wrote "An Elegy on my Friend, Mr. John
Playford", so it would appear that Playford was reasonably close to a major
musical figure (and I seem to recall Playford's publishing him).

At http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/centlib/wighton/jpms.htm is a list of music
books in the "Wighton Collection" published by Playford; I don't offhand know
how many others there were.  These include a virginal instruction book, the
treble fiddle for dummies ("short rules and directions for Practitioners on the
treble violin") book that grew into "Apollo's Banquet', a two-volume song and
viol book, a catch collection, a book of music from the theatre (I'm tempted to
say "show tunes"), and a psalm book. 

So it might possibly be more correct to say JP was interested and
knowledgeable about music and interested in printing music.  He may have been
interested in a dance book as a reason to print the tunes.


> 2.  JP saw a market for a dance book and gambled on
> making a profit, especially at the nearby Inns of
> Court.  This is similar to a bookseller who isn't a
> teacher but finds himself next to a college:  He's
> going to stock textbooks...and maybe try to publish
> one that fits an unmet need of his market.

I think we can go for this one.  He certainly didn't do it solely for
his health.


> 3. JP was well-versed in teaching dance, so he was
> intimately involved in editing the book he published.

Where do you get this?  What evidence supports this?  I'm not going to grant it
as a premise.  The dances show differences in terminology and description, so
it would appear that there were multiple contributors, and that nobody  went
over the contributions to enforce consistency.  First, if it had been edited by 
a knowledgeable dancing master, I would expect it to be more consistent.

I don't think they've all been play-tested, either.  I think the book was
clearly edited by somebody who knew about layout and the somewhat-relaxed
spelling and capitalization standards of the time, but there's little evidence
that the proofer/editor was  well-versed in teaching dance.

[I think bookseller is probably a more respectable career than dancing-master
during Playford's lifetime, but I'm not sure about it and won't use that in an
argument.  Dancing-masters become excessively respectable after Allen Dodsworth
in the 1850s, but they're figures of fun on stage through the 1700s.  Their
status is complicated by their role in inculcating gentility in the rising
middle classes - etiquette instruction as well as dance instruction.]


> As for the term 'Country Dances':  I think that it was
> generic and described a style of dancing, just as
> 'Country Music' today doesn't reflect 'country music'
> of years gone by.

Could be.

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:45:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:44:47 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements-instrumentation - another print from the mid 18th c
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At the moment, (while boning up on some early American stuff), I just
happen to be looking at a reprint of a nice engraving from the title page
of "Wright's Compleat Collection of Celebrated Country Dances" (Vol. I,
London: J. Johnson, [ca. 1742].

Besides the longways set, the instruments depicted appear to be
1 violin (or viola) and maybe a second at the right end of the band
1 viola da gamba (cello)
1 basoon (or bass recorder - difficult to distinguish as Tom pointed out)
1 alto or tenor recorder (but it could be a double reed like oboe) - the
hands appear opposite to the usual recorder position (negative typo?)
1 centrally positioned harpsichord (looks like a man playing but I could be
mistaken)

CK

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:22:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:21:32 +0000
From: Philippa Waite <p.waite3-AT-ntlworld.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Workshop on baroque dance steps (suitable for use in country dances)
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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A workshop on Baroque dance steps suitable for use in Country dances will be
held in the San Francisco Bay Area, April 17/18, as part of the Annual
Spring Baroque Dance Workshops  USA. Tutor: Philippa Waite Artistic Director
of Consort de Danse Baroque (UK).
For further information about this workshop and other west coast workshops
taught by Philippa please use link to website:
 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/p.waite3/spring/
Thank you, Philippa Waite


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:04:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:04:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: not one hand but many!
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I'd like to support Alan Winston's grave doubts
concerning Playford as any kind of knowledgeable
editor of dance texts, or indeed the presence of *any*
single knowledgeable editor of dance texts c.1650. 
I aver that one of the more apparent things about
Playford's dance collections is the array of little
differences in writing styles or approaches to
figure-description (*always* tricky, even now: just
read Arlene Croce or Joan Acocella try to depict
movement in words--and they're not even trying to
describe dance for what one might call reproducible
results). Imagine, if you will, the firm of Kalmus
suddenly deciding to publish a collection of a hundred
dance tunes with their dances, and getting a dogsbody
to copy down or cut-and-paste a mass of dances by Pat
Shaw, Fried Herman, Tom Cook, Colin Hume, and Gary
Roodman, plus a bunch of anonymous community dances,
and typesetting them all without doing more, let us
say, than altering Fried's * to "star" (just for
"consistency"!)--and picture the result (leaving
behind, for a moment, any copyright lawsuits).
Generally, all mutually intelligible--but "unified"?
"edited"? No.

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:11:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:11:14 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Regarding publishers and selling -- most, if not all, major publishing houses had their own stores until fairly recently.  In NYC alone, there were many on Fifth Avenue in the 40s and 50s (streets not years!), as I recall -- Scribner (a beautiful place that's now a Benetton), Doubleday, Rizzoli.  And I'm sure more that I can't think of now.  Music publishers had their own stores as well -- G Schirmer, Carl Fischer, Boosey & Hawkes, Oxford University Press.  It's really in the last 10 years that publishers have closed their retail outlets.

So while publishers today let the retail middlemen do all the work -- B&N, Borders, etc., it was not unusual in the past for publishers to sell directly.  And it would have been more common years ago -- before bookstores became the way to go. 

Suzanne


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Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:30:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:30:28 -0500
From: Mary Railing <mrailing-AT-kiva.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements-instrumentation - another print from the mid 18th c
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[SNIP]

>hands appear opposite to the usual recorder position (negative typo?)
>1 centrally positioned harpsichord (looks like a man playing but I could be
>mistaken)
>
>CK

Left and right are often reversed on woodcuts and engravings.  This is a
result of the artist cutting the plate with normal left/right orientation,
but the printings from the plate are of course reversed.  When there was
text involved engravers were careful to cut the letters backwards, but for
illustrations they often seem not to have cared.  there are many woodcuts
of people playing instruments "backwards".

--Mary Railing
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:26:24 PST
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Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 02:20:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Naughty ECD Names
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:53:58 -0600 Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com> writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dcculb-AT-JUNO.COM>
> 
> See, for example, "Duck Soup", where Groucho says to Chico and 
> Harpo,
> "Making love to Mrs. Teasdale [Margaret Dumont] is my job."

Actually, he said "Making love to Mrs. Teasdale is my racket, but you can take a whack at her if you'd like." But that's neither here nor there...

BTW, I was surprised--not to mention impressed--with the large number of replies to my query about my 78s, and the knowledge and help list members were willing to offer. Thanks so much!

Dawn Culbertson
Baltimore, MD


________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:06:45 PST
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:06:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: off-topic: publishers (was Re: arrangements for English Dance music)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401222256330.24821-AT-yuma.Princeton.EDU>
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References: <326E2283.4471CDB1.0078596C-AT-aol.com>

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 SFORDNYC-AT-AOL.COM wrote:

> So while publishers today let the retail middlemen do all the work --
> B&N, Borders, etc., it was not unusual in the past for publishers to
> sell directly.  And it would have been more common years ago -- before
> bookstores became the way to go.

the book publisher i work for does sell directly by mail (well, really by
fax/e-mail and UPS).  we have no retail store, but sell a lot of books at
academic conferences.

susie lorand
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:20:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 00:20:06 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: off-topic: publishers (was Re: arrangements for English Dance music)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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References: <326E2283.4471CDB1.0078596C-AT-aol.com> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401222256330.24821-AT-yuma.Princeton.EDU>

> So while publishers today let the retail middlemen do all the work --
> B&N, Borders, etc., it was not unusual in the past for publishers to
> sell directly.  And it would have been more common years ago -- before
> bookstores became the way to go.

And, of course, Barnes & Noble was originally a publisher, not a bookstore,
but shifted gears.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 03:00:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:52:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: Thomas Bending <t.bending-AT-mdx.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Beginner's Nightmare
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Simone Verheyen wrote

> I'm looking for the instructions for a dance by Bob Lilley, entitled "the
> Beginner's Nightmare", or "the Beginners' Nightmare".
> Years ago, a friend gave them to me. It's a 4-couple longways dance.  It's
> fun to do, it works, but I think there's something wrong in the progression.

I always assumed it was the first of these titles, but I'm not sure:

Beginner's Nightmare by Bob Lilley

Longways 4 couple set, 1s and 3s improper. 48-bar jigs.

A1 Lead up a double and back: back-to-back right shoulder.

A2 Lead down a double and back: back-to-back left shoulder.

B1 In fours at each end half right-and-left through (ie two changes): 
middle four half right-and-left through.

B2 Top four (only) half right-and-left through: middle women cross, 
take right hand with partner, and lead out a bit to form a square set.

C1 Grand chain halfway round, giving right hand to partner to start.

C2 Right hand turn partner halfway; left hand turn partner halfway: 
head ladies chain across, and the heads move in a bit.

If you now pair up with your *original* partner, then you're in a 
longways set with the head at the original ladies' wall, in the order 
2341. Repeat the dance with "up" in that direction throughout, and 
so on. Do the dance 4 times and you're home .. maybe!

All the rights-and-lefts start with your partner. C2 looks a bit odd but 
it really does make sense in the dance. Remember that when "up" 
changes direction so does "heads". A full stop (colon, semicolon) 
indicates an 8 (4, 2) bar phrase. Please ask if anything's still unclear. 
Have fun,

Thomas Bending

Thomas Bending

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 06:11:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 06:14:20 -0800
From: Ric Goldman <timelord-AT-rgoldman.org>
Subject: Revamping the ECD webring
To: List - ECD PLAYFORD <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAC1hXc4nK0hGkWxCfUcEAAMKAAAAQAAAAhqLq81xN2BG60AAEWqIMhgEAAAAA-AT-rgoldman.org>
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Folks,

I just inherited ownership of the English Country Dance webring and I'm in
the process of revamping it into a more active list.  I'm told some folk
(ECD group contacts within CDSS) have already been emailed and invited to
join up with the ring.  If you are interested, you can go to the ECD webring
"hub" page at

   http://d.webring.com/hub?ring=englishcountryda

The ring is fledgling at this point, but I hope folk will sign on.  If you
have a web presence you'd like included, just click on the "Join this Ring"
link on the right side of the page.

Over time, I'm hoping to include general and reference materials about ECD
(suggestions/submissions welcome) and starting up/maintaining an ECD
community.  Perhaps even an ECD FAQ?  I'm certainly open to ideas, but
meanwhile, I'd simply like to get more sites onto the list.

Feel free to pass any thoughts or considerations on to me.

Thanx, Ric Goldman
(new) ECD webring manager

timelord-AT-rgoldman.org
http://rgoldman.org/welcome.htm


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 07:21:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:20:33 -0500 (EST)
From: DavBarnert-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: arrangements for English Dance music
To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <c.20a19192.2d4295c1-AT-aol.com>
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--Boundary_(ID_rV2E69jfGEv6QXyk9Me0/w)
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Alan wrote:

 >So it might possibly be more correct to say JP was interested
 >and knowledgeable about music and interested in printing music.

Just as long as it didn't have too many ledger lines.    ;-)


     ______       /\/\/\/\
    <______>      | | | | |   David Barnert
    <______>      | | | | |   <davbarnert-AT-aol.com>
    <______>      | | | | |   Albany, NY
    <______>      \/\/\/\/

   Ventilator    Concertina
     Bellows       Bellows
   (Vocation)    (Avocation)

--Boundary_(ID_rV2E69jfGEv6QXyk9Me0/w)
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Courier" FAMILY="FIXED" SIZE="2">Alan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
 &gt;So it might possibly be more correct to say JP was interested<BR>
 &gt;and knowledgeable about music and interested in printing music.<BR>
<BR>
Just as long as it didn't have too many ledger lines.&nbsp;&nbsp;  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  ______&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  /\/\/\/\<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;  &lt;______&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  | | | | |&nbsp;  David Barnert<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;  &lt;______&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  | | | | |&nbsp;  &lt;davbarnert-AT-aol.com&gt;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;  &lt;______&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  | | | | |&nbsp;  Albany, NY<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;  &lt;______&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  \/\/\/\/<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;  Ventilator&nbsp;&nbsp;  Concertina<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  Bellows&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  Bellows<BR>
&nbsp;  (Vocation)&nbsp;&nbsp;  (Avocation)</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Courier" FAMILY="FIXED" SIZE="2"></FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_rV2E69jfGEv6QXyk9Me0/w)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:18:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:14:47 -0500
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: shoe covers again
To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040123.131500.-143619.5.solweber-AT-juno.com>
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(Public service not-for-profit message)
Re the following item from Carolyn, 30 cents a pair is high.
I got a much better price at my local surgical supply store.
If you'd like to get some from me in reasonable quantities, 
at 20 cents a pair plus shipping, contact me OFF LIST.

Sol

 
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:31:49 -0500
From: Carolyn Worthing <worthing-AT-mindspring.com>
Subject: Shoe Covers, bulk resource
 
This for Sol, but should anyone else care to go into the "safe shoe" biz,
here a link and the crucial data:
 
S-7873    Shoe Covers - Universal (fits size 1-11) 150 pairs/case
Price Per CASE
Price $45.00
 
Description:  elasticized polypropylene booties slip on easily.
              non-skid bottom prevents slipping
 
this from a catalog that mysteriously made it to my mailbox today, why I
haven't a clue!
 
Carolyn Worthing
 
Sol "Roundman" Weber  --- "So many rounds, so little time"
25-14  37 St,  Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
& misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; web: roundz.tripod.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:26:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:24:17 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <401182F2.ED4D05A1-AT-wi.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> and starting up/maintaining an ECD community. 

Ric,
I don't understand - I think we've proven again & again that we have a
pretty darn fine ECD community (Hi everybody!) connected thru this ECD List.

Perhaps I don't understand just what a webring is or how it works--how
will it differ from the NEFFA Linkfest (which links to all sorts of
dances, callers, etc) and from the CDSS Group Affiliate Web List?

[Looking at the ECD WebRing...does it sort in any way, or is it
organized by date joined?  and what do the thumbs up/thumbs down in
stoplight colors mean?]

thanks,

Deb
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:49:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:49:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040123204920.59775.qmail-AT-web12202.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Probably the biggest difference would be that some of
us don't even *know* about the NEFFA Linkfest!  A URL
would be handy.

Others would be that there is no library, links list,
photo area, calendar or easy way to search through old
posts.  That's why I created a EnglishCountryDance
group on Yahoogroups
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnglishCountryDance/)
to fill in those missing pieces.  Everyone's welcome!

Tom

--- Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-WI.MIT.EDU> wrote:
> > and starting up/maintaining an ECD community. 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I don't understand just what a webring is or
> how it works--how
> will it differ from the NEFFA Linkfest (which links
> to all sorts of
> dances, callers, etc) and from the CDSS Group
> Affiliate Web List?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Deb


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:07:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:05:30 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: NEFFA
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <40118C9A.C953270B-AT-wi.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tom Vincent wrote:
> Probably the biggest difference would be that some of
> us don't even *know* about the NEFFA Linkfest!  A URL
> would be handy.

don't know about NEFFA??  Horrors!
here's the NEFFA homepage URL:
http://www.neffa.org/

go to LinkFest->Folk Dancing->English Country Dancing.  A good spot to
look (in addition to CDSS links) if you're going to be travelling & want
to know what's available.

I see nothing's listed for Delaware...please send in your dance link!

It's a good spot to check for balls & festivals, too.

--Deb
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:07:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:07:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401231601400.18111-AT-tucson.Princeton.EDU>
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On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Tom Vincent wrote:

> Probably the biggest difference would be that some of
> us don't even *know* about the NEFFA Linkfest!  A URL
> would be handy.

the CDSS web page contains a link to the NEFFA linkfest. (you don't have
to be a member to use the CDSS page - though in my opinion anyone who's
interested in strengthening the ties among english country dancers should
be.)  go to <http://www.cdss.org/> and click on "related websites".

> Others would be that there is no library, links list,
> photo area, calendar or easy way to search through old
> posts.

have you tried <http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ECD.HTMLX>?
it may not have all you seek, but i believe it includes some of what you
think is missing.

susie lorand
princeton, nj, usa
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:10:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:01:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01L5QMNE8XFA91ZBB1-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tom wrote:

> Probably the biggest difference would be that some of
> us don't even *know* about the NEFFA Linkfest!  A URL
> would be handy.

http://www.neffa.org/Top/index.shtml

for ECD specifically:

http://www.neffa.org/Top/Folk_Dancing/English_Country_Dance/index.shtml

(and Early American)

http://www.neffa.org/Top/Folk_Dancing/Colonial/index.shtml

> Others would be that there is no library, links list,
> photo area, calendar or easy way to search through old
> posts.  That's why I created a EnglishCountryDance
> group on Yahoogroups
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnglishCountryDance/)
> to fill in those missing pieces.  Everyone's welcome!

Have you looked at the ECD list home page?  URL is in the signup message you
received, but it's currently
http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx

It's got a way to search through old posts.  Admittedly, the ECD Archive
search-by-subject-line is limited, but it seems pretty easy.

What would you have on a calendar?  It seems excessively hopeful to try to 
get every weekly-dance/ball/weekend/week/workshop in the English-speaking 
ECD world. If you can convince me of some use for this, it's easy enough to
add.

There's been a "useful links" list since approximately day one, and the 
hotbeds page has links to individual dance series pages, etc.

Not to be excessively competitive, but I'd rather be sure we're talking about
making up deficiencies that actually exist, and are felt needs rather than 
checklist items.  I could certainly supply some of these items if people 
want 'em.

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:01:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:01:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: NEFFA
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040123220117.5734.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Well, what's a horror to one is normal to others...

Yes, I will set about adding the DE dances to the
list.  I find very few of them listed *anywhere*!

--- Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-WI.MIT.EDU> wrote:
> 
> Tom Vincent wrote:
> > Probably the biggest difference would be that some
> of
> > us don't even *know* about the NEFFA Linkfest!  A
> URL
> > would be handy.
> 
> don't know about NEFFA??  Horrors!
> here's the NEFFA homepage URL:
> http://www.neffa.org/
> 
> go to LinkFest->Folk Dancing->English Country
> Dancing.  A good spot to
> look (in addition to CDSS links) if you're going to
> be travelling & want
> to know what's available.
> 
> I see nothing's listed for Delaware...please send in
> your dance link!
> 
> It's a good spot to check for balls & festivals,
> too.
> 
> --Deb


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:22:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:21:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NEFFA Links:  Thanks!  I do a lot of websurfing for
dance info and hadn't come across that one!  Very
nifty!

Calendar:  It *would* be nice to have a place to find
dances all over the country in a handy calendar
format.
Would also be useful to those planning a conference,
dance camp, etc. to help avoid conflicts.  

ECD list home page:  Didn't know there was one!  Ditto
with links.  

How would people know about these things?  Another
*major* advantage to yahoogroups is 'one-stop
shopping':  The homepage has a nice index for getting
to messages, calendar, photos, links, library, etc. 
All right there.

I'm *certainly* not 'making up' deficiencies and
there's nothing wrong with being competitive -- though
I prefer to be *constructive* and *cooperative* -- but
why re-invent the wheel when it's already been done
very nicely on yahoogroups?  Also, I've found that the
links, files, photos, calendar are *very* handy --
more so for local groups than national, but still nice
things to have.  As much as I love the ECD list, I
just felt it was lacking and, as a 'fix-it' kinda guy,
I set up something to complement it, not compete with
it.  As I said:  Why re-invent the wheel?

What I'd *really* like is a library of dance
instructions and MP3s!  I'm building my own (up to
about 1,200 MP3s so far), but the perpetual jigsaw
puzzle of finding a CD of dances that I've only got a
couple of instructions for -- or the reverse, finding
a book of interesting dances but no recordings seem to
exist! -- is challenging and fun...okay, it gets a bit
frustrating, but that's life!



--- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
<winston-AT-SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> Tom wrote:
> 
> > Probably the biggest difference would be that some
> of
> > us don't even *know* about the NEFFA Linkfest!  A
> URL
> > would be handy.
> 
> http://www.neffa.org/Top/index.shtml
> 
> for ECD specifically:
> 
>
http://www.neffa.org/Top/Folk_Dancing/English_Country_Dance/index.shtml
> 
> (and Early American)
> 
>
http://www.neffa.org/Top/Folk_Dancing/Colonial/index.shtml
> 
> > Others would be that there is no library, links
> list,
> > photo area, calendar or easy way to search through
> old
> > posts.  That's why I created a EnglishCountryDance
> > group on Yahoogroups
> >
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EnglishCountryDance/)
> > to fill in those missing pieces.  Everyone's
> welcome!
> 
> Have you looked at the ECD list home page?  URL is
> in the signup message you
> received, but it's currently
> http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx
> 
> It's got a way to search through old posts. 
> Admittedly, the ECD Archive
> search-by-subject-line is limited, but it seems
> pretty easy.
> 
> What would you have on a calendar?  It seems
> excessively hopeful to try to 
> get every weekly-dance/ball/weekend/week/workshop in
> the English-speaking 
> ECD world. If you can convince me of some use for
> this, it's easy enough to
> add.
> 
> There's been a "useful links" list since
> approximately day one, and the 
> hotbeds page has links to individual dance series
> pages, etc.
> 
> Not to be excessively competitive, but I'd rather be
> sure we're talking about
> making up deficiencies that actually exist, and are
> felt needs rather than 
> checklist items.  I could certainly supply some of
> these items if people 
> want 'em.
> 
> -- Alan



=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:51:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:51:32 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF3BA244B3.CBE0362C-ON85256E24.007CB730-85256E24.007D5E53-AT-biogenidec.com>
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1) The resources available at the NEFFA site are very useful. One that I
use frequently is to find out contact info on musicians, callers etc...  -
I think it is the performer directory.

2) I noticed the webring requires one to add "navigation code" to one's
webpage. Is it ok?

3) One shortcoming of this ECD list is that finding out about it seems to
be a matter of chance. (I am lucky that someone who came to my ball 3 years
ago was kind enough to tell me about it and send me info on it). Would the
Webring be more visible?

CKaynor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:05:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:03:27 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4011A840.9A040864-AT-wi.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com>


> What I'd *really* like is a library of dance
> instructions and MP3s!  

well, we'd all like that, but one starts running into copyright issues,
etc etc.

Short of a library, we'd all like an index of where to find all of the
dances & tunes.  Build THAT site, and they will come...

;-)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:08:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:08:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401231803120.23600-AT-tucson.Princeton.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com>

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Tom Vincent wrote:

> ECD list home page:  Didn't know there was one!  Ditto with links.
>
> How would people know about these things?

as alan said (see below), the welcome message that you receive upon
joining this list tells you about the ECD home page.

> why re-invent the wheel when it's already been done very nicely on
> yahoogroups?

please correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe that alan's page predates
your yahoogroups page, group, or whatever is the appropriate terminology.
in that sense, it would seem that you are the one doing the reinventing
and duplicating.

susie lorand

Alan wrote:
> > Have you looked at the ECD list home page?  URL is in the signup
> > message you received, but it's currently
> > http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx
> >
> > It's got a way to search through old posts.  Admittedly, the ECD
> > Archive search-by-subject-line is limited, but it seems pretty easy.
> >
> > There's been a "useful links" list since approximately day one, and
> > the hotbeds page has links to individual dance series pages, etc.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:11:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:10:21 -0700
From: "Ed St.Germain" <Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: ECD Yahoo list
To: ECD <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <BC36E9DD.946%Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I just looked at the "Links" page for the Yahoo ECD Group.

There were 3 links - one for a dating service, one for a growth hormone and
one for an ECD site.

Best regards,
Ed

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:20:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:05:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01L5QR6VVF3291ZBB1-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cammy wrote:

> 1) The resources available at the NEFFA site are very useful. One that I
> use frequently is to find out contact info on musicians, callers etc...  -
> I think it is the performer directory.

Yes, very cool.

> 2) I noticed the webring requires one to add "navigation code" to one's
> webpage. Is it ok?

Probably.  (You put in a little javascript.  There could be Trojan-horse
badness in there, but people would figure that out pretty quick.)

> 3) One shortcoming of this ECD list is that finding out about it seems to
> be a matter of chance. (I am lucky that someone who came to my ball 3 years
> ago was kind enough to tell me about it and send me info on it). 

I am not sure how the make the ECD list more generally known.  It's been
mentioned and quoted in CDSS news, I've submitted the home page to search
engines and you can find it via google search, discussed it at dance camps,
etc.  Those announcements tend not to impinge on people's consciousness unless
they're ready to get to it.  What makes a difference is people telling other
people that they ought to join up.  (And, I think it's fairly clear, the people
who'd like to discuss ECD in email are a smaller group than the people who
enjoy doing ECD, so a lot of those people probably _shouldn't_ join up if
they're not going to enjoy it.)

> Would the
> Webring be more visible?

The ring itself wouldn't be a lot more visible.  If you're the kind of person
who says "I'm interested in topic X, let's see if there's a Webring about it!"
then you could go to the webring home page and find out if there is one, and
then find the sites that have linked to it.   I think search engines are a much
likelier first step for most people.
 
The ring itself isn't an interactive forum; it links websites together; they
may themselves include or describe interactive fora.

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:31:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:20:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01L5QRKR81YK91ZBB1-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Tom wrote:

> NEFFA Links:  Thanks!  I do a lot of websurfing for
> dance info and hadn't come across that one!  Very
> nifty!

> Calendar:  It *would* be nice to have a place to find
> dances all over the country in a handy calendar
> format.
> Would also be useful to those planning a conference,
> dance camp, etc. to help avoid conflicts.


CDSS News has an upcoming events listing.

> ECD list home page:  Didn't know there was one!  Ditto
> with links.

> How would people know about these things?  

As I mentioned about the ECD list home page, they'd know about it because
it's referred to in the message they get when they sign up (if they bother
to read it).

> Another
> *major* advantage to yahoogroups is 'one-stop
> shopping':  The homepage has a nice index for getting
> to messages, calendar, photos, links, library, etc.
> All right there.

> I'm *certainly* not 'making up' deficiencies and
> there's nothing wrong with being competitive -- though
> I prefer to be *constructive* and *cooperative* -- but
> why re-invent the wheel when it's already been done
> very nicely on yahoogroups?  

Constructive and cooperative are nice. I didn't particularly enjoy my
experience of yahoogroups or onelist when my morris team was trying to use it,
and we found we couldn't get our members (most of them middle-aged computer
engineers) to use the very useful-seeming web-based collaborative tools - 
they'd answer polls by email, not go to a webpage to do it; they didn't use the
calendar, etc, etc.  And this was with a group that certainly wasn't
intimidated by the technology.

I've also heard stories - which may be false, who knows - of email address
leakage from yahoogroups to spammers, which make me nervous about encouraging
anybody else to sign up with them.


>Also, I've found that the
> links, files, photos, calendar are *very* handy --
> more so for local groups than national, but still nice
> things to have.  As much as I love the ECD list, I
> just felt it was lacking and, as a 'fix-it' kinda guy,
> I set up something to complement it, not compete with
> it.  As I said:  Why re-invent the wheel?

I kind of objected to your statement that the ECD list didn't have _any_
of that stuff, simply on a factual basis.  As to reinventing the wheel, if
we have to move everybody on the list to yahoo to get at those goodies (which 
list members have _not_ been asking me for, so I presume they're not high
priority) it hardly seems worth it.  If they did ask for it - if there were a
perceived use for them - we could get them without moving.


> What I'd *really* like is a library of dance
> instructions and MP3s!  I'm building my own (up to
> about 1,200 MP3s so far), but the perpetual jigsaw
> puzzle of finding a CD of dances that I've only got a
> couple of instructions for -- or the reverse, finding
> a book of interesting dances but no recordings seem to
> exist! -- is challenging and fun...okay, it gets a bit
> frustrating, but that's life!

Yes, such a library would be extremely cool. Getting rights clearances on 
the recorded music is really the brutal part.  There might be some utility
in a Wiki on dance instructions, so that you could get comments, experiences,
clarifications, etc, for each dance.

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:04:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:05:31 -0500
From: jbgrun <jbgrun-AT-berk.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Yahoo list
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BC372F0B.1976%jbgrun-AT-berk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org

> one for a dating service, one for a growth hormone and
> one for an ECD site.


There's gotta be a thematic connection...

Judy G

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:12:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:10:20 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Yahoo list
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4011C5FD.B30AFD95-AT-wi.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <BC372F0B.1976%jbgrun-AT-berk.com>

jbgrun wrote:
> 
> Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org
> 
> > one for a dating service, one for a growth hormone and
> > one for an ECD site.
> 
> There's gotta be a thematic connection...

"meet wonderful people & experience personal growth by dancing ECD?"
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:12:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:12:14 -0500
From: Frederic Emigh <frederic.emigh-AT-verizon.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: yahoo groups
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BC37309E.84F7%frederic.emigh-AT-verizon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Yahoo groups have some nice features, but I'm wary.   It was not long after
I joined a Yahoo Scand group that spam to my related Yahoo account changed
from a trickle to a flood - had to terminate that Yahoo account and start a
new one (without the Scand affiliation).  No spam so far on the new one,
even though I'm still subscribed to the Scand list (which doesn't know about
the new Yahoo account).   The above may be only _post hoc ergo propter hoc_
reasoning, but with the NEFFA and CDSS and Alan's ECD websites functioning
so well, not to mention the frequent posting of literate observations to
this listserv, I don't feel compelled at all to join the Yahoo group, as
well-meaning as it is.

Fred Emigh

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:43:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:39:35 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: yahoo groups
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a06002000bc377bb11bb4-AT-[140.186.55.27]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <BC37309E.84F7%frederic.emigh-AT-verizon.net>

Yahoo has a very "generous" optin policy, and also the habit of not 
reminding you when you enlist to go to the privacy terms page and opt 
out.

I get about 75 pieces of spam every day and I'm on 5 or 6 yahoo 
lists, some private and some public.

Although one can't really tell, anymore, where spammers are getting 
their addresses, I would think harvesting them from places like yahoo 
would be a waste of their time, since any good little computer can 
generate them by the skadillions just randomly and every day I get 
two or three offers of 500,000 addresses in my spam.

The internet is never going to be any more secure than your public 
mail box, which receives 5-6 pieces of spam every day in the form of 
grocery store fliers, offers for credit cards, subscription offers, 
Publisher's Clearing House offers and such junk.

Why do we object so to virtual spam when the real spam is so wasteful 
of natural resources?  Virtual spam can be winnowed out by your ISP 
without your every seeing it, whereas you have to handle each piece 
of junk mail to determine that it's a waste of trees and the energy 
to run printing presses.
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
mailto:elf-AT-cape.com
508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography 
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:45:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:45:18 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001c01c3e24e$0380b940$598f4a0c-AT-paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> <4011A840.9A040864-AT-wi.mit.edu>

----- Original Message -----
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-WI.MIT.EDU>

<<Short of a library, we'd all like an index of where to find all of the
dances & tunes.  Build THAT site, and they will come...>>

Not everything by any means, but a lot of that information is in the
references to the second edition of Barnes.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:53:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:53:12 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Yahoo list
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <006501c3e289$cab062a0$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <BC36E9DD.946%Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org>

Well, that's what happens when members are allowed to add links! :)  I've
removed the two oddball links.  Folks are welcome to add new ones, by the
way.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed St.Germain" <Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org>
To: "ECD" <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 5:10 PM
Subject: ECD Yahoo list


> I just looked at the "Links" page for the Yahoo ECD Group.
>
> There were 3 links - one for a dating service, one for a growth hormone
and
> one for an ECD site.
>
> Best regards,
> Ed

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:04:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:00:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040124.070153.22827.462101-AT-webmail11.nyc.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


There is a country dance index which is still helpful though now out of date for the plethora of new material written in the last 20 years.  I have here the third edition of Peter Rogers "Country Dance Index; an index to Sources of English & American Country Dances," dated 1986. He covered the basic books & records available at that time. I still use it to locate older dances & recordings.

And, speaking as one who has edited two books of dance (BTW, have you bought *your* copy of The Blind Harper Dances; 54 MECD set to tunes of Turlough O'Carolan by wonderful choreographers from four countries including Fried Herman, Ken Sheffield, Charles Bolton, Philippe Callens, Orly Krasner, John Wood, Dave Turner and many more....?) I would not be in favor of a massive site of dances, not just because then I wouldn't cover my printing costs, but because in the course of editing I discovered that there are (as we just mentioned in the Playford discussion) many many variances in how people describe their dances. In the course of preparing The Blind Harper Dances I found quite a difference between the Brits and the Yanks in terms of dance descriptions, uncovered some errors, had to define some terms that wouldn't necessarily make sense in our two forms of English, etc. Buying a book ensures (pretty much) that someone has thought everything through and has explained it clearl!
 y to the reader. Sites that people would contribute to at will would be rife with errors. A good example of this is the recent experience of an inexperienced caller friend of mine who pulled some English dances off a website...they were simultaneously ambiguous and either wrong or were the RenFair versions and she had no way of knowing the difference.

Allison Thompson
http:/www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:24:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:18:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Colin Hume <colin-AT-colinhume.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <2004124161817.095679-AT-colin-hume>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:00:05 PST, Tom Vincent wrote:
>> Calendar:  It *would* be nice to have a place to find  dances all
>> over the country in a handy calendar  format.
>> Would also be useful to those planning a conference,  dance camp,
>> etc. to help avoid conflicts.
>
Ana Alan Winston wrote
>
> CDSS News has an upcoming events listing.

I thought I had emailed Brad Foster  in December offering to write a
web site which would do exactly that - different groups, camps and
organisations would be able to update their own information, and you
could search for different events (English Dance, Contra Dance, Ball
or whatever) by Town, State or the whole country.  Looking at my
"Sent" messages I've discovered it's not there - so I've just sent it
to CDSS!

Colin Hume

Email colin-AT-colinhume.com      Web site http://www.colinhume.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:13:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:12:56 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <013901c3e2ae$1460f030$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <01L5QRKR81YK91ZBB1-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Alan -

First I wanted to reiterate how much I cherish the *current* ECD list and
have no aspirations or interest in replacing it or competing with it.  I
very much respect and appreciate the work you've done.

Here are my key points of improvement I value.  Again, nothing personal -in
any way- against what you've done:

It's great to find out about NEFFA Links, CDSS News (at
http://www.cdss.org/newsletter/events.html , by the way) and that you
mention the ECD list home page in the sign up message (though for some of us
who signed up quite some time ago, it may be asking quite a bit to remember
it or even find it).

But my point is that it is easier to browse than to continually ask for what
is available.

That's why a bookstore is fun when you can leasurely browse through it
(either in person or on the web) but it isn't much fun if you had to ask the
clerks for each and every title, subject or author.

Reminds me of the 'fun' I had with the recently immigrated French clerk at
the International Deli's cheese counter I went to this morning:  I'd ask for
a cheese, he'd look to see if they had any...they didn't...and I'd go on to
my next selection (shades of Monty Python).

So, for me personally, I prefer yahoogroups where I have all the features I
value.  I think the advantages are important:  Messages, photos, calendar,
links, document library.  All in one place that people can browse and
contribute as they see fit.

Also, I notice that your ECD mailing list page hasn't been updated in over a
year (if the 11-Sep-2002 date is accurate).  Now, since you're the only one
who can update it, you're the only one who can decide whether a article,
link or feature is 'worthy' of being added.  Now, granted, the spam links
added to the ECD yahoogroup were silly, but no real harm was done.  But
someone could have added the NEFFA link and many of us could have learned of
it by browsing through the links section.

I noticed you don't have NEFFA listed, so I guess you didn't know about it,
didn't think it was worth having on the web page or just didn't get around
to it.  Is there really not a single link or article you discovered over the
past year that merited inclusion on your website?

I also like to have descriptions with links.  Think this is redundant?
You've got 'Bay Area Country Dance Society' listed, but no description of
the group.  I'm from Los Angeles, so I think of 'Bay' as Santa Monica.  When
I lived in Phoenix, 'Bay' meant San Diego.  Now that I live in Delaware,
'Bay' means either 'Delaware Bay' or 'Chesapeake Bay'.  Others might think
Tampa.  Or Biscayne. Or Wisconsin. Even going to the BACDS website doesn't
immediately tell you *where* they are, as if the *only* Bay in the country
is San Francisco.  Anyway, links without descriptions gives one the 'where'
but not the 'why' or 'who'.  Now, if a group of people had access, they
could improve the links and add new ones.

See, I'm a believer in collaboration:  If everyone could add links, we'd see
a different prioritization of links.  Collaboration allows diversity as well
as growth.  It also helps to spread the workload.  Yahoogroups -- or
*whatever* the portal -- allows for collaboration.  Single-webmaster
websites are, I think, becoming obsolete.

Tom
 (who, for the record, is a middle-aged computer professional who embraces
new technology as well as treasures the people in my life and the beauty of
the natural world :) )

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing"
<WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
To: "Tom Vincent" <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Cc: <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring


> Tom wrote:
>
> > NEFFA Links:  Thanks!  I do a lot of websurfing for
> > dance info and hadn't come across that one!  Very
> > nifty!
>
> > Calendar:  It *would* be nice to have a place to find
> > dances all over the country in a handy calendar
> > format.
> > Would also be useful to those planning a conference,
> > dance camp, etc. to help avoid conflicts.
>
>
> CDSS News has an upcoming events listing.
>
> > ECD list home page:  Didn't know there was one!  Ditto
> > with links.
>
> > How would people know about these things?
>
> As I mentioned about the ECD list home page, they'd know about it because
> it's referred to in the message they get when they sign up (if they bother
> to read it).
>
> > Another
> > *major* advantage to yahoogroups is 'one-stop
> > shopping':  The homepage has a nice index for getting
> > to messages, calendar, photos, links, library, etc.
> > All right there.
>
> > I'm *certainly* not 'making up' deficiencies and
> > there's nothing wrong with being competitive -- though
> > I prefer to be *constructive* and *cooperative* -- but
> > why re-invent the wheel when it's already been done
> > very nicely on yahoogroups?
>
> Constructive and cooperative are nice. I didn't particularly enjoy my
> experience of yahoogroups or onelist when my morris team was trying to use
it,
> and we found we couldn't get our members (most of them middle-aged
computer
> engineers) to use the very useful-seeming web-based collaborative tools -
> they'd answer polls by email, not go to a webpage to do it; they didn't
use the
> calendar, etc, etc.  And this was with a group that certainly wasn't
> intimidated by the technology.
>
> I've also heard stories - which may be false, who knows - of email address
> leakage from yahoogroups to spammers, which make me nervous about
encouraging
> anybody else to sign up with them.
>
>
> >Also, I've found that the
> > links, files, photos, calendar are *very* handy --
> > more so for local groups than national, but still nice
> > things to have.  As much as I love the ECD list, I
> > just felt it was lacking and, as a 'fix-it' kinda guy,
> > I set up something to complement it, not compete with
> > it.  As I said:  Why re-invent the wheel?
>
> I kind of objected to your statement that the ECD list didn't have _any_
> of that stuff, simply on a factual basis.  As to reinventing the wheel, if
> we have to move everybody on the list to yahoo to get at those goodies
(which
> list members have _not_ been asking me for, so I presume they're not high
> priority) it hardly seems worth it.  If they did ask for it - if there
were a
> perceived use for them - we could get them without moving.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:20:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:20:13 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <014701c3e2af$178fa570$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> <4011A840.9A040864-AT-wi.mit.edu>

Actually, one other feature of yahoogroups I haven't explored much is the
database capability.  I'll try uploading a list of dances and recordings to
see how well it works.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the MP3s would be provided with the
authorization of or compensation to the artists.  I am very much opposed to
the unauthorized copying of available CDs, especially with the very limited
market for ECD musicians.  Same goes for dancebooks currently in print.  If
we don't support musicians, authors and callers, we'll lose some of them.

If we can't build an MP3 library, perhaps we could work something out with
iTunes to include ECDs.  That may actually expose the ECD musicians to a
much larger audience.

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deb Karl" <debkarl-AT-WI.MIT.EDU>
To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring


>
> > What I'd *really* like is a library of dance
> > instructions and MP3s!
>
> well, we'd all like that, but one starts running into copyright issues,
> etc etc.
>
> Short of a library, we'd all like an index of where to find all of the
> dances & tunes.  Build THAT site, and they will come...
>
> ;-)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:24:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:24:02 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <014d01c3e2af$a0230670$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401231803120.23600-AT-tucson.Princeton.EDU>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring


> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Tom Vincent wrote:
>
> > ECD list home page:  Didn't know there was one!  Ditto with links.
> >
> > How would people know about these things?
>
> as alan said (see below), the welcome message that you receive upon
> joining this list tells you about the ECD home page.

Which I joined some three years ago, I think.

>
> > why re-invent the wheel when it's already been done very nicely on
> > yahoogroups?
>
> please correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe that alan's page predates
> your yahoogroups page, group, or whatever is the appropriate terminology.
> in that sense, it would seem that you are the one doing the reinventing
> and duplicating.


The correct term is 'portal'.  What I said was that it seems redundant for
Alan to attempt to add all these features to his website (which he doesn't
seem to find important anyway) when it's already been done on yahoogroups.
I didn't create it:  I merely set up a portal page to *augment* what is
missing on Alan's.  That's neither reinventing nor duplicating.

Tom

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:39:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:39:24 -0500
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <016101c3e2b1$c5e5db10$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20040124.070153.22827.462101-AT-webmail11.nyc.untd.com>

Quite a dilemma.

Volunteer efforts can only go as far as the volunteer's skills, efforts and
pocketbooks are willing to go.    That's why collaboration and compensation
are important.

But I couldn't agree *less* with your claim that 'Buying a book ensures
(pretty much) that someone has thought everything through and has explained
it clearly to the reader':  Not in the least.  It completely depends on the
skills, efforts and pocketbook of a much smaller group of people...maybe
even one.

And your claim about 'in the course of editing' doesn't negate an online
database either.  In fact, it supports it.  How many times has someone
complained about this or that redaction because it's missing some new
interpretation, information or analysis?  And what if you had published your
book with the erroneous older info in it and then found the new info?  Your
old book may have been discredited and you'd have *no* way of recouping your
lost investment.

And a printed index goes out of date with each new discovery, translation or
CD release.

No, an online database would be easier to keep up-to-date, easier to expand,
easier to search, easier to correct.  And Paypal (or similar on-demand
financial system) makes paying for access -- should that be necessary -- a
breeze.  But I guess you didn't think of that. ;>

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <allisonthompson-AT-JUNO.COM>
To: <ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: dance index


>
> There is a country dance index which is still helpful though now out of
date for the plethora of new material written in the last 20 years.  I have
here the third edition of Peter Rogers "Country Dance Index; an index to
Sources of English & American Country Dances," dated 1986. He covered the
basic books & records available at that time. I still use it to locate older
dances & recordings.
>
> And, speaking as one who has edited two books of dance (BTW, have you
bought *your* copy of The Blind Harper Dances; 54 MECD set to tunes of
Turlough O'Carolan by wonderful choreographers from four countries including
Fried Herman, Ken Sheffield, Charles Bolton, Philippe Callens, Orly Krasner,
John Wood, Dave Turner and many more....?) I would not be in favor of a
massive site of dances, not just because then I wouldn't cover my printing
costs, but because in the course of editing I discovered that there are (as
we just mentioned in the Playford discussion) many many variances in how
people describe their dances. In the course of preparing The Blind Harper
Dances I found quite a difference between the Brits and the Yanks in terms
of dance descriptions, uncovered some errors, had to define some terms that
wouldn't necessarily make sense in our two forms of English, etc. Buying a
book ensures (pretty much) that someone has thought everything through and
has explained it clearl!
>  y to the reader. Sites that people would contribute to at will would be
rife with errors. A good example of this is the recent experience of an
inexperienced caller friend of mine who pulled some English dances off a
website...they were simultaneously ambiguous and either wrong or were the
RenFair versions and she had no way of knowing the difference.
>
> Allison Thompson
> http:/www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:51:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:51:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Playford? Villages?
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.58.0401241844020.133088-AT-elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAD+ekJyEdP02bYZMUrV+LCcKAAAAQAAAAidji8D5cjkySLAspUPBEiwEAAAAA-AT-gcknight.demon.co.uk>

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Graham Knight wrote:

> I seem to remember finding a reference to an Eleanor (?) Playford who
> applied for permission to print books on Mathematics and Algebra. From
> memory it was late in the 17th Century, about 1680. Off hand I cannot
> remember when John died but had wondered whether she was continuing the
> printing business in her own right after his death.
>
> I would have thought it unlikely that she would have been a Dancing
> Mistress due to the constraints on women at that time.

The Victorians neatly "disappeared" all the references and evidence of
women working for a living or owning property prior to the 19th century.
Certainly they (women) owned the breweries in England and made the beer in
the 17th and 18th centuries.  They also owned hotels and inns. They were
also the midwives until about the 1830s or so.  In the 12th century,
Eleanor of Aquitaine owned about 2/3 of what we now consider France.  the
right of women to own property gradually eroded from the 12th century to
19th, and the pendulum started to swing the other wayat the beginning of
the 20th century.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(Priscilla.Burrage-AT-uvm.edu)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:30:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 01:30:21 -0600
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001f01c3e315$174dd120$738f4a0c-AT-paulstam>
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References: <20040123222153.9846.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> <4011A840.9A040864-AT-wi.mit.edu> <014701c3e2af$178fa570$6ec35244-AT-Hercules>

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-YAHOO.COM>

<<If we can't build an MP3 library, perhaps we could work something out with
iTunes to include ECDs.  That may actually expose the ECD musicians to a
much larger audience.>>

Now that makes sense -- allowing folks to download a piece of music when
needed, while ensuring that the musicians get proper compensation. What also
might make sense is to have dance tunes that are in the public domain but
aren't in Barnes archived someplace as MIDI files, so they could be
downloaded and either heard or printed out as sheet music.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 04:48:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 04:48:06 -0700
From: "Ed St.Germain" <Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Jane Austen Ball photos
To: ECD <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <BC38FB06.97F%Patriot1-AT-AmericanRevolution.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If anyone is interested, I've uploaded four pages of photos from last nights
Jane Austen Ball in Pasadena, California, beginning at:

http://englishcountrydancing.org/austen.html

Best regards,
Ed

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 06:47:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:46:43 -0500 (EST)
From: David.Millstone-AT-valley.net (David Millstone)
Subject: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <36607585-AT-enfield.VALLEY.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Deb Karl wrote: "Short of a library, we'd all like an index of where to find all
of the dances & tunes.  Build THAT site, and they will come..."

One such site exists already in Hugh Stewart's Dance Database. Granted, it
doesn't list ALL the dances & tunes, but others can add to the database to make
it more complete:

http://ban.joh.cam.ac.uk/~abs21/dance.html

As for calendars, folks should be aware of Ted Crane's dance database, which has
a LOT of information about dances in the US:

http://www.tedcrane.com/DanceDB/

David Millstone
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:44:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:44:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040126154422.12708.qmail-AT-web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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As good as those are, the problem with both those
databases is that they're updated by only one person
(my assumption, based on the names).

And when they're under control of one person, what
happens if they neglected it, lost interest, forgot to
renew their webhost or domain, or had a fatal disk
crash without good backup?  Poof.

Collaborative databases allow a larger group of people
to contribute.  If we put something like that under
the control of CDSS, for example, we'd be virtually
guaranteed of having a reliable, robust, accurate,
growing, vital, safe and secure on-line library of
documents, calendars, MP3s, photos, etc.

Tom

--- David Millstone <David.Millstone-AT-valley.net>
wrote:
> Deb Karl wrote: "Short of a library, we'd all like
> an index of where to find all
> of the dances & tunes.  Build THAT site, and they
> will come..."
> 
> One such site exists already in Hugh Stewart's Dance
> Database. Granted, it
> doesn't list ALL the dances & tunes, but others can
> add to the database to make
> it more complete:
> 
> http://ban.joh.cam.ac.uk/~abs21/dance.html
> 
> As for calendars, folks should be aware of Ted
> Crane's dance database, which has
> a LOT of information about dances in the US:
> 
> http://www.tedcrane.com/DanceDB/
> 
> David Millstone


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:38:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:37:15 -0500
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040126113617.00a66590-AT-mail.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_lfPLzaqkHsB0NgwqtPlXRA)"


--Boundary_(ID_lfPLzaqkHsB0NgwqtPlXRA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

   Sounds like a case for a "wiki", which is one of the latest Big Things 
on the net. I am currently reading THE WIKI WAY, on how it is that a web 
database anyone can edit does NOT lead to chaos.

At 07:44 AM 1/26/04 -0800, you wrote:
>As good as those are, the problem with both those
>databases is that they're updated by only one person
>(my assumption, based on the names).
>
>And when they're under control of one person, what
>happens if they neglected it, lost interest, forgot to
>renew their webhost or domain, or had a fatal disk
>crash without good backup?  Poof.
>
>Collaborative databases allow a larger group of people
>to contribute.  If we put something like that under
>the control of CDSS, for example, we'd be virtually
>guaranteed of having a reliable, robust, accurate,
>growing, vital, safe and secure on-line library of
>documents, calendars, MP3s, photos, etc.
>
>Tom
>
>--- David Millstone <David.Millstone-AT-valley.net>
>wrote:
> > Deb Karl wrote: "Short of a library, we'd all like
> > an index of where to find all
> > of the dances & tunes.  Build THAT site, and they
> > will come..."
> >
> > One such site exists already in Hugh Stewart's Dance
> > Database. Granted, it
> > doesn't list ALL the dances & tunes, but others can
> > add to the database to make
> > it more complete:
> >
> > http://ban.joh.cam.ac.uk/~abs21/dance.html
> >
> > As for calendars, folks should be aware of Ted
> > Crane's dance database, which has
> > a LOT of information about dances in the US:
> >
> > http://www.tedcrane.com/DanceDB/
> >
> > David Millstone
>
>
>=====
>Tom Vincent
>
>"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
>-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the 
>Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants.
>
>http://www.deanforamerica.com
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
>http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

--Boundary_(ID_lfPLzaqkHsB0NgwqtPlXRA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<html>
<font size=3>&nbsp; Sounds like a case for a &quot;wiki&quot;, which is
one of the latest Big Things on the net. I am currently reading THE WIKI
WAY, on how it is that a web database anyone can edit does NOT lead to
chaos.<br><br>
At 07:44 AM 1/26/04 -0800, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As good as those are, the problem
with both those<br>
databases is that they're updated by only one person<br>
(my assumption, based on the names).<br><br>
And when they're under control of one person, what<br>
happens if they neglected it, lost interest, forgot to<br>
renew their webhost or domain, or had a fatal disk<br>
crash without good backup?&nbsp; Poof.<br><br>
Collaborative databases allow a larger group of people<br>
to contribute.&nbsp; If we put something like that under<br>
the control of CDSS, for example, we'd be virtually<br>
guaranteed of having a reliable, robust, accurate,<br>
growing, vital, safe and secure on-line library of<br>
documents, calendars, MP3s, photos, etc.<br><br>
Tom<br><br>
--- David Millstone &lt;David.Millstone-AT-valley.net&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
&gt; Deb Karl wrote: &quot;Short of a library, we'd all like<br>
&gt; an index of where to find all<br>
&gt; of the dances &amp; tunes.&nbsp; Build THAT site, and they<br>
&gt; will come...&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; One such site exists already in Hugh Stewart's Dance<br>
&gt; Database. Granted, it<br>
&gt; doesn't list ALL the dances &amp; tunes, but others can<br>
&gt; add to the database to make<br>
&gt; it more complete:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;
<a href="http://ban.joh.cam.ac.uk/~abs21/dance.html" eudora="autourl">http://ban.joh.cam.ac.uk/~abs21/dance.html</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As for calendars, folks should be aware of Ted<br>
&gt; Crane's dance database, which has<br>
&gt; a LOT of information about dances in the US:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;
<a href="http://www.tedcrane.com/DanceDB/" eudora="autourl">http://www.tedcrane.com/DanceDB/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; David Millstone<br><br>
<br>
=====<br>
Tom Vincent<br><br>
&quot;Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war.&quot;
<br>
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the
Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. <br><br>
<a href="http://www.deanforamerica.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.deanforamerica.com</a><br><br>
__________________________________<br>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!<br>
<a href="http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/" eudora="autourl">http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/</a></font></blockquote></html>

--Boundary_(ID_lfPLzaqkHsB0NgwqtPlXRA)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:02:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:02:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0401261156020.26956-AT-tucson.Princeton.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20040126154422.12708.qmail-AT-web12201.mail.yahoo.com>

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Tom Vincent wrote:

> As good as those are, the problem with both those databases is that
> they're updated by only one person (my assumption, based on the names).

actually, as david millstone pointed out (see below), others *can*
contribute to hugh stewart's.

my experience with ted crane's database is that he *does* allow others to
make updates.

if someone has different information (as opposed to assumptions) i'd be
interested to know.

> And when they're under control of one person, what happens if they
> neglected it, lost interest, forgot to renew their webhost or domain, or
> had a fatal disk crash without good backup?  Poof.

i think these are valid concerns - but different from the question of
whether more than one person can contribute.

susie lorand
princeton, nj, usa

> --- David Millstone <David.Millstone-AT-valley.net> wrote:
> >
> > One such site exists already in Hugh Stewart's Dance Database.
> > Granted, it doesn't list ALL the dances & tunes, but others can add to
> > the database to make it more complete:
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:42:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:42:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Mary Railing <mrailing-AT-kiva.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401261226200.26137-100000-AT-mayhem.kiva.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Tom Vincent wrote:

> As good as those are, the problem with both those
> databases is that they're updated by only one person
> (my assumption, based on the names).

  I think you will find that if you start another dance site it will be 
updated, if at all, by Mr. Tom Vincent. It's one thing to say, "Hey, kids, 
let's put on a show!" and quite another to generate an ongoing interest in 
keeping it current on the part of the community.
  I for one doubt I would even look at it.  I just don't have that much time 
to spend messing around on the web.

--Mary Railing

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:43:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:42:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040126184240.6636.qmail-AT-web12208.mail.yahoo.com>
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the idea is --
as I mentioned in the post -- to set up
*collaborative* databases accessible/updateable by
many and beyond the control of any one individual. 
That's why I suggested it would be good to have it in
the hands of CDSS or a similar organization.

--- Mary Railing <mrailing-AT-kiva.net> wrote:
> 
>   I think you will find that if you start another
> dance site it will be 
> updated, if at all, by Mr. Tom Vincent. It's one
> thing to say, "Hey, kids, 
> let's put on a show!" and quite another to generate
> an ongoing interest in 
> keeping it current on the part of the community.
>   I for one doubt I would even look at it.  I just
> don't have that much time 
> to spend messing around on the web.
> 
> --Mary Railing
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:09:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:06:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040126.110716.25056.1847245-AT-webmail20.nyc.untd.com>
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An index is one thing, but there is no way any dances not in the public domain (that is, everything written after roughly 1925--but the date is different in US, UK and Canada (right lawyers?)) should be entered & updated by anyone but the choreographers, their heirs, or assigns.

Allison


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:32:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:31:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Vincent <tomrvincent-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20040126193140.84586.qmail-AT-web12206.mail.yahoo.com>
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So, at the very least, that would allow the scope to
be pretty good:  That includes all the historical
dances and, I think maybe even Sharp's writings.

No way to include post-'25 material?  Sure there is: 
Copyrighted material could be included if there was a
way (Paypal, YahooPayDirect, etc.) to compensate the
composer/copyright-holder.

A good example of this is www.sheetmusicplus.com --
and similar websites -- where you can download sheet
music for a reasonable price.  Very handy last month
when I couldn't find sheet music for 'When Laura
Smiles' a week before I was to call it and needed to
send the score to my harpsichordist ASAP.  Also nice
when you don't have to buy a large book of scores when
one or two is all you need.  

No reason this couldn't be expanded to include dance
instructions, for example.  In fact, a mix of free
downloads of uncopyrighted work along with paid
downloads of copyrighted work is a model used by some
music sites...Amazon.com even has a free MP3 download
area.  I think of it as a way to get a taste of an
artist that's more than the usual 15-second
snippet/sample.


--- allisonthompson-AT-JUNO.COM wrote:

> 
> An index is one thing, but there is no way any
> dances not in the public domain (that is, everything
> written after roughly 1925--but the date is
> different in US, UK and Canada (right lawyers?))
> should be entered & updated by anyone but the
> choreographers, their heirs, or assigns.
> 
> Allison
> 
> 


=====
Tom Vincent

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." 
-- Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned as to why the Pentagon refuses to provide kill figures for enemy combatants. 

http://www.deanforamerica.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:20:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:17:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: allisonthompson-AT-juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040126.131758.22827.471267-AT-webmail11.nyc.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just buy the books, like all the rest of us have. It's not that big a deal and you easily support Living Artists without creating a lot of mess.

Allison
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:15:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:15:20 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF65AC1BD5.841AF50F-ON85256E27.0079C0BA-85256E27.007A0F21-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Not all of us can afford to buy books at will and are therefore limited in
what we can do to "support the artists."
Personally, I would rather support the artist a little for the pieces I
need (and give their work some exposure), than not at all.
Cammy



                                                                                                                                   
                      allisonthompson-AT-juno.co                                                                                      
                      m                              To:       ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu                                        
                      Sent by:                       cc:                                                                           
                      owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.s        Subject:  Re: dance index                                                     
                      tanford.edu                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      26-Jan-2004 04:17 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   





Just buy the books, like all the rest of us have. It's not that big a deal
and you easily support Living Artists without creating a lot of mess.

Allison


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:29:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:29:21 -0500
From: SFORDNYC-AT-aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <2C3E8F84.2E819055.0078596C-AT-aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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While I agree that inclusivity is important and we certainly shouldn't hide our light under a bushel (or whatever that phrase is)...

One of the wonderful and useful aspects of this list is that people don't come to it without some ECD experience (or, to be more positive, they come to it with because of some ECD experience).  It's sort of "for those who know" but once you know it's not for those with experience only.

I'm not saying we make it difficult for people to find us, but it wouldn't be the same if people wandered in who had no idea what we were talking about.  I've had that experience on message boards in the past, and it's just no fun.  You wind of having to explain yourself all the time -- and eventually the core group who established forum wander off.  I don't think of this group as a primary outreach for ECD. This group is for people with a serious (or not so serious) interest (passion) for ECD.  A place where we can talk, throw ideas around, ask serious questions, and goof off among friends.

There are plenty of places where people can find basic information about what we do -- CDSS or local group web sites.  Then come to this place after they have some experience.

Perhaps a webring can serve the purpose of getting the word out about ECD.  But I wouldn't want to lose this discussion forum in an effort to reach out to the immediate world.  

That's my opinion.
Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:09:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:08:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: the list--I'm with Suzanne...
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20040126230843.5878.qmail-AT-web20603.mail.yahoo.com>
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I concur entirely with Suzanne; if this list becomes
the front line of defense for ECD, we'll do nothing
but answer queries that will all say, more or less,
"What is this English Country Dancing? I've never
heard of it, but it sounds blablabla..." 

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:57:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:52:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: Christine Hogue <r823arw-AT-nutecnet.com.br>
Subject: [SPAM:######] Collection Action Pending
To: ecd-request-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_hBHwhnO/8Jk6kXTNHEI/Ig)"


--Boundary_(ID_hBHwhnO/8Jk6kXTNHEI/Ig)
Content-type: text/html
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<html>
<head>
<title>sortie</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>

<body>
<p>Take a survey and get paid for it. Find out more, follow the link below</p>
<p><a href="http://www.silverstate.co.sy-AT-click.net-click.net.ph/click.php?id=sicosyl">http://www.silverstate.co.sy-AT-click.net-click.net.ph/click.php?id=sicosyl</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><font size="2">to get off our database <a href="http://www.silverstate.co.sy-AT-click.net-click.net.ph/click.php?id=sicosyx">follow
  this link</a></font></p>
</body>
</html>
s zachhlxhrdfymsexc

--Boundary_(ID_hBHwhnO/8Jk6kXTNHEI/Ig)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:05:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:07:46 -0800
From: Mary Devlin <mary-AT-mdevlin.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Revamping the ECD webring
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BC3B3D82.8986%mary-AT-mdevlin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I share Suzanne's opinion.  Wholeheartedly.

Mary


on 1/26/04 2:29 PM, SFORDNYC-AT-AOL.COM at SFORDNYC-AT-AOL.COM wrote:

> While I agree that inclusivity is important and we certainly shouldn't hide
> our light under a bushel (or whatever that phrase is)...
> 
> One of the wonderful and useful aspects of this list is that people don't come
> to it without some ECD experience (or, to be more positive, they come to it
> with because of some ECD experience).  It's sort of "for those who know" but
> once you know it's not for those with experience only.
> 
> I'm not saying we make it difficult for people to find us, but it wouldn't be
> the same if people wandered in who had no idea what we were talking about.
> I've had that experience on message boards in the past, and it's just no fun.
> You wind of having to explain yourself all the time -- and eventually the core
> group who established forum wander off.  I don't think of this group as a
> primary outreach for ECD. This group is for people with a serious (or not so
> serious) interest (passion) for ECD.  A place where we can talk, throw ideas
> around, ask serious questions, and goof off among friends.
> 
> There are plenty of places where people can find basic information about what
> we do -- CDSS or local group web sites.  Then come to this place after they
> have some experience.
> 
> Perhaps a webring can serve the purpose of getting the word out about ECD.
> But I wouldn't want to lose this discussion forum in an effort to reach out to
> the immediate world.
> 
> That's my opinion.
> Suzanne

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:13:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:13:22 -0500
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance index
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a06002000bc3ba1a0980f-AT-[171.75.169.85]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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References: <20040126.131758.22827.471267-AT-webmail11.nyc.untd.com>

Allison writes:
>Just buy the books, like all the rest of us have. It's not that big 
>a deal and you easily support Living Artists without creating a lot 
>of mess.

The initial collection can be expensive and challenging to assemble. 
Adding new publications after that isn't a problem.  Out-of-print 
publications can be an issue, especially as so many of our dance 
"books" are in the book collectors realm of "ephemera"... small 
editions, often privately printed (xeroxed, mimeographed, plastic 
spiral-bound, etc), sometimes only available on the wrong side of the 
pond.  But all the challenge can add to the fun for a collector.

For those who just want the instructions, sheet music or MP3 tune, a 
database would still be most helpful!

I don't think the issue is either/or, but rather both/and...

Cheers - Linda
-- 


__________________________________________________
"Oh, yes.  It's vital to remember who you really are.
It's very important.  It isn't a good idea to rely on other
people or things to do it for you, you see.  They always
get it wrong."        (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery")
__________________________________________________
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:06:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:06:00 -0500
From: Susan <susan-AT-generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: NYC: Historical Dance Workshops Sunday 2/1/04
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: susan-AT-generalist.org
Message-ID: <E1Alt8a-0005dL-00-AT-black.generalist.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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(Regular monthly posting)


EAS Historical Dance Workshops - Sunday, February 1, 2004 - New York City

1:00-4:00pm	Regency	$15, or $10 for first-timers
4:30-6:30pm	1860's  $12, or $10 if you took the Regency class as well

PLEASE RSVP to: nyc-AT-elegantarts.org 
(so we have a vague idea of how many to expect)

*** NEW LOCATION FOR 2004 ***
Actors Movement Studio, 302 W. 37th Street, 6th floor (near 8th Ave.)
for directions, see our webpage, http://www.elegantarts.org/

The Regency workshop focuses on dances of the first quarter of the 19th 
century, the era of Jane Austen, Lord Byron, the Napoleonic Wars, etc.  
Dances include quadrille figures, country dances, waltz, and Scotch reel.  
This month we will look in particular at the second figures of the French 
and Royal Scotch Quadrilles.  No experience is needed.  These dances are
done with stepwork and are lively and bouncy.

The 1860's workshop focuses on dances of the era of Queen Victoria and
the American Civil War, including the waltz, gallop, schottische, and
polka, as well as contra dances and quadrille figures.  This month
we will focus particularly on the polka but will also review waltz,
gallop, and schottische from the previous two classes in this series.
(This is the third and last; next month we will jump forward almost
half a century to the Edwardian era.)  No previous experience is
needed.  

Both classes are taught by yours truly; email with any questions.

Street shoes are not allowed on the dance floor - please bring shoes to 
change into.  Flat dance shoes are strongly recommended; these dances
are extremely unsuited to high heels.

While we have never yet cancelled for weather and don't expect to, all 
of this is subject to last-minute changes; check our webpage
for the most up-to-date information:  http://www.elegantarts.org

Susan













================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:30:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:30:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Country Dancers of Westchester <cdw_ecd-AT-yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Frosty's Meltdown
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <20040128183032.65609.qmail-AT-web12206.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Scott Higgs emcees Country Dancers of Westchester's
Saturday dance party, "Frosty's Meltdown,"
at White Plains, NY. Music provided by Dan Beerbohm,
Barbara Greenberg, and Bill Peek. Dacing from 8 -
11pm.

Get complete information at the C.D.W. website:
http://www.geocities.com/cdwestchester/ 

Admission for the event is $12.00; it's $10.00 for
C.D.W. members.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:54:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:54:09 -0500
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Feb 21-22 weekend in Amherst MA
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <BC3DDFE2.4A46%joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello, dance friends (those within traveling distance of western
Massachusetts--the rest of you may wish to push delete now...my feelings
won't be hurt in the least, so go ahead :-) ),

 ----For the busy, I've made a synopsis at the end of this msg that skips
all my enthusiastic adjectives and descriptive sentences----

Tired of political ads & speeches? Tired of cold weather? Tired of whatever
you're tired of?

Well, come to a special two-dance weekend and forget about everything but
dancing in a great hall with wonderful partners to great music, all under
the leadership of one of the best at creating a relaxed, fun atmosphere.

Working backwards...

-- Leader: Mary Jones, coming all the way from Port Jervis, NY (!), is the
leader for both dances.  Need I say more to those who have experienced
Mary's humor & personality, great love of ECD, and rapport with the crowd?
I could also mention that Amherst is where Mary got her start as a caller
back in ancient times (c. 1995, I think); we know & love her; and it just
can't help but be a warm, fun time, here on the home court, so to speak.

-- Music:  Saturday night's music will be played by the sponsors of the
regular 3rd Saturday dance: Pleasures of the Town (Doug Creighton, flute &
melodeon, & Joyce Crouch, piano) joined by guest violinst lydia ievins.

Sunday afternoon's music will be played by Karen Axelrod, piano; Doug
Creighton (see above), and Jessica Murrow, oboe.   Since I'm not personally
in this band, I can express my opinion without restraint -- these three are
truly fine musicians and the music is guaranteed to be thrilling and highly
danceable!

-- Fellow dancers: These Amherst weekends (this will be our 18th; we began
in 1996 and do two a year) invariably attract skilled (meaning beautiful to
watch), congenial dancers who

1) are extremely friendly & helpful to less-skilled dancers at the Saturday
night dance, which is open to all and encourages beginners; and

2) are similarly friendly & helpful to each other at the Sunday afternoon
Advanced Dance, which is open to dancers ready for a program aimed at those
who are completely familiar with basic figures (which will not be taught)
and can generally hold their own in a challenging dance without undue
reliance on their partner.

-- Hall:  Munson Library Auditorium -- with its excellent wood floor, very
nice piano, warm atmosphere, architectural beauty and New England village
setting -- is the place.  Plenty of free parking.

Hope to see a goodly number of you there!

Regards to all,
Joyce Crouch
Did I mention the delicious refreshments on Sunday?  No, so see synopsis.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Here's the factual synopsis:

Saturday evening, Feb 21, 2004, at Munson Library* in South Amherst,
Massachusetts, 8-11 pm, $7 ($6 students).  Led by Mary Jones.  Music by
house band Pleasures of the Town and guest lydia ievins, violin.  Open to
all; beginners welcome & encouraged to come right at 8 pm for best
introduction to English country dancing.

Sunday afternoon, Feb 22, 2004, at Munson Library* in South Amherst,
Massachusetts, 2-5 pm, $10.  Dances taught and prompted by Mary Jones.
Music by Karen Axelrod, piano; Doug Creighton (see Sat evening), & Jessica
Murrow, oboe.  Refreshments and social time at the break.  Advanced Dance
limited to dancers completely familiar with basic ECD figures (which will
not be taught).

For directions to the hall, go to www.amherstecd.org and click on Pleasures
of the Town, then "Munson Library."

For a list of overnight lodging options, click on Advanced Dance, then
"bed-&-breakfasts."

For further information, contact Ruth at 413-253-3828 or madrobin-AT-rcn.com;
or Joyce at 413-549-4123 or joycecrouch-AT-pobox.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:25:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:25:09 -0500
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dancing Through Time - 2/8/04
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF9E479469.2AE8CC4E-ON85256E28.005EBD4A-85256E2A.004F045A-AT-biogenidec.com>
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Apologies to this list as the dancing is slightly off-topic; not "English"
but "New Englandish" and authenticity is not the objective. This event is
particularly geared to newcomers.
CK

Don't miss it!!!
Sunday, 2/8/04, 7-10PM
"Dancing Through Time" - dances selected from the 17th-21st centuries
Instruction: Cammy Kaynor with assistance from Veronica McClure
Music: Lissa Schneckenburger and Cal Howard

St. John's United Methodist Church
80 Mt. Auburn St.
Watertown, MA
USA

Newcomers and Sit-ins very welcome
Suggested Donation $6

We had a tiny crowd for my dance on Sunday 1/25. Nonetheless, I think every
one had a grand time. Lissa and Cal provided superb music and we managed to
pick our way through a fair number of dances.

Veronica brought a couple mid-18th century outfits and ladies to demo them
(Leslie and Crista) after the break. She also had four sets of paniers (the
metal hoops that held the dress out wide from the hips) to try on and some
tricorn hats for the guys. After I finished gawking at the metal hoops (mid
18th c lingerie) I tried one on to see how it would feel to be a mid-18th
century transvestite!

Needless to say, there was a fair amount of hilarity and it was interesting
to feel how this gear influenced the way we danced repertoire from that
period. As we moved into some late 18th c and early 19th c dances it became
evident that it was increasingly awkward to dance in the old-fashioned
garb. It really helped to emphasize the connection between
choreography/style and clothing fashions.

There was a chronology of country dance in New England (photos, books,
prints, dance manuals...) that stretched the length of the stage.

On Sunday evening, Feb 8 we will again  contradance our way from 1650
through 2004. One or two dances will be danced repeatedly (e.g., Sir Roger
de Coverley-VA Reel, Trip to Tunbridge-Chorus Jig). By so doing we will
test our understanding of the evolution of contradancing - one of New
England's folk traditions - over time.

(We are very fortunate that the Watertown Cultural Council has granted us
funding to help with the cost of the hall for this series. Your
participation is one way to show our appreciation and demonstrate that we
feel such ventures are worthwhile and deserving of such support).

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:21:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:16:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dancing Through Time - 2/8/04
To: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell.Kaynor-AT-biogenidec.com>
CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01L5YWLXCDT692Q8OV-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cammy wrote:

> Apologies to this list as the dancing is slightly off-topic; not "English"
> but "New Englandish" and authenticity is not the objective. This event is
> particularly geared to newcomers.

> Sunday, 2/8/04, 7-10PM
> "Dancing Through Time" - dances selected from the 17th-21st centuries
> Instruction: Cammy Kaynor with assistance from Veronica McClure
> Music: Lissa Schneckenburger and Cal Howard

I don't think that's off-topic in the slightest.  And it sounds like a really
marvelous event; I wish I could have attended. 

(If authenticity were _the_ objective, this would be a very different list.
And historical country dance is definitely on-topic.)

-- Alan

-- 
===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:32:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:26:32 +0000
From: trev <trevuk-AT-HotPOP.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: FISY (Folk in South Yorkshire)
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <005601c3e69e$9c7c02e0$1f3c0751-AT-trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In case anyone is unexpectantly in Sheffield this Saturday (or even not
unexpectantly)
Ian Jones and Cumbrian Gap will be at
St. Thomas More Church Hall
Parson Cross, Sheffield at 7.30 pm.

Please come along,
Trev

(See www.fisy.freeserve.co.uk for further details)




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:46:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:46:17 -0800
From: Beth Zekley <beth-AT-larkcamp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mendocino English Country Dance 2/7/04, Contra Dance, Lark Camp
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, ba-community-dance-AT-bacds.org
Message-ID: <v04210101bc4047c89e63-AT-[204.189.3.203]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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Mendocino English Country Dance - Mendocino, California

Saturday, February 7, 2004 at 8:00 pm
at the Caspar Community Center
$5 Admission * Kids Free

English Country Dance is fun, relatively easy, community-oriented dancing with
live music.

All Dances Are Taught * No Partner Required
Beginners Encouraged * No Special Dress Required

Potluck snacks and beverages to share during the break and after the 
dance. Please bring something.

We will have a volunteer signup sheet at the dance for a limited 
number of people willing to help clean up and do other jobs at the 
dance (free admission for volunteers.)

Mendocino English Country Dance Website
http://www.larkcamp.com/mendoengdance.htm

Live Music By "Take A Dance" English Country Dance Orchestra
http://www.larkcamp.com/takeadance.html

Instruction And Calling by Elizabeth Zekley, Lea Smith  & Will Wheeler

Call Mickie or Elizabeth for more information (707) 964-4826 or email 
englishdance-AT-larkcamp.com

Dances monthly at the Caspar Community Center
(between Mendocino & Fort Bragg, California)
Map to the Caspar Community Center
http://www.casparcommons.org/CCC/WheresCaspar.htm

Calendar Of Upcoming Mendocino English Country Dances:
Saturday, February 7, 2004 at 8:00 pm
Saturday, March 6, 2004 at 8:00 pm
Saturday, April 3, 2004 at 8:00 pm
Saturday, May Day, May 1, 2004 at 8:00 pm

****************************
Also available on the Mendocino English Country Dance website are 
downloadable tune books in PDF & ABC formats. 
http://www.larkcamp.com/mendoengdance.htm
****************************
What is English Country Dance?
English Country Dance is the dance form that was popular in England 
and America in the 1600's, 1700's and early 1800's. It is one of the 
dance forms from which modern contra and square dance are descended. 
If you like contra or square dancing you will love English country 
dancing.

When asked what makes English country dancing special or unique for 
him, Gene Murrow gave an expansive reply: "The beauty of the music; 
the intimate relationship of the music to the dance; the experiencing 
of artistic vision as a participant; the accessibility of fine art to 
almost everyone; the social interaction among individuals and the 
creation of community; the connection with the past; the continuing 
evolution of the genre."

****************************
CASPAR CONTRA DANCE
Friday, February 20, 8-11 PM
Caspar Community Center, Downtown Caspar, behind the old church
$7-10 sliding scale, Free beginner's session at 7:30
Bring potluck snacks
Caller: Lea Smith
Band: To Be Announced!

Contradances will be held at the Caspar Community Center for the rest 
of 2004 on the third Friday of the month (except for June).
For info on the Caspar Contra Dance contact Janet Ashford at 
707/937-4555, jashford-AT-jashford.com

****************************
Lark Camp World Music & Dance Staff 2004
July 30-August 7
At the Mendocino Woodlands

Dance Instructors & Workshops
Jason Adajian - English Country & Morris Dance
Jon Berger - English Band Workshop For The Dance, Student Dance 
Callers Encouraged To Lead Dances
Toby Blome - Scandinavian Folk Dance
Shirleigh Brannon - Irish Ceili & Step Dance
Gary Breitbard - French  Dance
Nicole Conti -  Flamenco Dance
Malaika Finkelstein - Beginning East Coast Swing &  Charleston, 
Intermediate Swing (Lindy Hop)
Deborah  Fischbach - Dancer's Morning Warm-Up, Belly Dance, Rhythms & 
Improvisation, Zils, Percussion, Veil Work
Erik Hoffman - Contras, Squares,  Waltzes, Couple Dances, Ham-Bone
Leslie Jackson  - Sean-Nos (old style) Irish Step Dance
Kalia Kliban - English Waltz Clog, Long Sword
Antonea Leftheriotis - Greek Dance
Janis Reynolds - Irish Set Dancing
Heidi Sapere - Informal Dance Jam For All Ages And Levels, Freedom in 
Movement to Music- For All Ages And Levels
Yael Schy - Appalachian Clogging, Cajun & Zydeco Dance
Elizabeth Strong - Strengthening and Middle Eastern, Belly Dance 
Floor Work, Turkish Gypsy Folk Dance
Sue Williard - Balkan Dance

About 70 music and vocal instructors also.

For more information
Lark Camp Website http://www.larkcamp.com
PO Box 1176 Mendocino, California 95460 USA
Lark Camp Phone (707) 964-4826
Lark Camp Fax (707) 964-8659
email registration-AT-larkcamp.com


Musically yours,
Beth Zekley

*** LARK CAMP ***
PO Box 1176 Mendocino, California 95460 USA
Lark Camp Phone (707) 964-4826
Lark Camp Fax (707) 964-8659
email beth-AT-larkcamp.com
Lark Camp Website http://www.larkcamp.com
Mickie & Elizabeth Website http://www.larkcamp.com/me
Lark Camp BBS http://bbs.mcn.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?category=3

*** MENDOCINO ENGLISH COUNTRY DANCES ***
http://www.larkcamp.com/mendoengdance.htm
Phone (707) 964-4826
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:12:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:12:15 -0500
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Hall Change for Boston English Dance on Feb. 4: Our First Lemonade Dance]
To: ECD list <ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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I thought I'd pass this message along to the List, in case any
out-of-towners are planning to dance at the Feb. 4th Wednesday Arlington
dance.

--Deb

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Hall Change for English Dance on Feb. 4: Our First Lemonade
         Dance
   Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 22:13:15 EST
   From: ACFerg-AT-cs.com
     To: undisclosed-recipients:;

Dear Members and Friends of CDS, Boston Centre,

I am forwarding the following message at the request of Terry
Gaffney, Chair of the English Dance Committee.

Best regards,
Arthur Ferguson
Membership Secretary

If you wish not to receive further email messages from CDS, please
notify me at acferg-AT-cs.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Friends,

Next Wednesday on Feb. 4, we've lost the use of our usual hall the Park
Avenue Church, which is being de-leaded. Instead of canceling the
dance, we'll be having our first lemonade dance at the Congregational
Church of West Medford located at 400 High St. (Directions to the
Church appear below. )

We're calling it a lemonade dance, because though life has handed us a
lemon, together we can turn it into lemonade. Parking appears easy, and
the Church is fairly close to Arlington, just down route 60. Please
help us to get the word out to the dance community about this change,
and please come and help make this evening a success.

We will serve lemonade at the break!

Best,
Terry

Directions to the Church:

From the North:
Take I-93 south; take Exit 32. Follow Route 60 west (which becomes High
St.) about 1.3 miles to church (on left).

From the South:
Take I-93 north through Boston; take Exit 32. Follow Route 60 west
(which becomes High St.) about 1.3 miles to church (on left).

From the West:
Take Route 2 east to Route 60. At end of exit ramp, turn left toward
Arlington. Continue on Route 60 through Arlington Center (1.0 mile from
Route 2), then through two rotaries (another 0.6 mile), and across
railroad tracks (another 0.6 mile). Continue 0.2 mile on Route 60 (High
St.) to church (on right).

By Public Transportation (MBTA):
Commuter rail (Boston/North Station - Lowell line) to West Medford
Station; walk 0.2 mile east to church.

Bus 94 (Davis Square / Red Line subway - Medford Square) stops on High
Street near the church.

Bus 95 (Sullivan Square / Orange Line subway - West Medford) stops on
High Street near the church.


See the Church website for maplinks etc.
http://www.ccwm-medford.org/Bindex_c.htm

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:04:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 05:04:37 +0000
From: Orly Krasner <okrasner-AT-hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: New York Playford Ball
To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <BAY1-F17ttbgcAKcDwV0002491f-AT-hotmail.com>
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It gives me great pleasure to invite you all to the 21st annual New York 
Playford Ball.

Date: Saturday, April 17, 2004
Time: 8 PM - Midnight  (Walk-through 3-5 PM)
Place: Synod Hall, Cathedral of St John the Divine, Amsterdam Avenue at 
110th St.
Emcees: Beverly Francis and Gene Murrow
Band: A Joyful Noise
Program:  Fabulous dances old and new

Please note that we're in a different venue this year.  Aside from that, 
there will be our usual sumptuous refreshment break and glorious dancing.  
Also new this year (because of an available gallery)--we will have space for 
non-dancers who wish to listen to the music and socialize during the break.  
Be careful walking on all of this ice, but if you do twist an ankle, you can 
still come to the ball!

For more details and a registration form, please visit our website:  
www.cdny.org
Some hospitality will be available.

I look forward to dancing with you all!
--Orly Krasner
Chair, Playford 2004

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