Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:54:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:51:40 -0600 (CST) From: mgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Well Hall MP3 download site To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3193.144.92.125.29.1067629900.squirrel-AT-webmail.mhtc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: mp3 down load site for Bare Necessities English Country Dances http://www.artistdirect.com/store/artist/album/0,,48429,00.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:54:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:30:19 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: Farewell Marian -- unrelated question To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031101.121759.-355763.16.gmurrow-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: tunes in Barnes suitable for final waltz (asked by Jon B.) On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:41:41 -0600 Paul Stamler writes: > > "Irish Lamentation". "Wood Duck". "Margaret's Waltz". > > Peace, > Paul "Ramsgate Assembly" "Bonny Cuckoo [aka "She begs for more"] Gene ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:54:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 10:07:36 +0000 From: trev Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Well Hall To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <002701c3a060$28a1c1e0$50360751-AT-trevormo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031031154912.17404.qmail-AT-web20607.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks to everyone for their prompt replies! I've found someone with Bare Necessites, and didn't realise it was on Broadside Band English Country Dances from Playford's Dancing Master which I already have, but have not got a filing system organised yet! Which has just made me think, is there a web based index of ecd recordings, much on the same line as Hugh Stewart's on-line index of where dances are published? Cheers, Trev --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 27/10/03 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:54:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:30:45 -0500 From: franch-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Well Hall To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031031.203045.-441753.5.franch-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There is a very fine version of Well Hall, at danceable length (4:24) on one of my favorite ECD discs, called Stepping into the 18th Century. It was produced by Gadsby's Tavern Museum in Alexandria, Va (US) by the museum. Marty Taylor, one of the musicians on the CD, has a supply of them and is willing to sell them via mail for the usual $15 plus postage. I recommended the CD on the list a few years ago, and I know she sold at least one that way--I hope to the list members satisfaction. Marty's email address is MWebbTaylor-AT-aol.com Other musicians are Ralph Gordon, Sue Richards, Steve Hickman, and Richard Irwin, who will be known to at least some on the list. Dances, in addition to Well Hall, are Irish Lamentation, The Bishop, Female Saylor, Successful Campaign, Sun Assembly, The Alderman's Hat, Scotch Morris, Stony Point, Red House, L'Amour Du Village, The Geud Man of Ballingigh, Flowers of Edinburg, Wakefield Hunt, Mr. Isaac's Maggot, Indian Queen, and Child Grove. Mike Franch ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:55:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:01:14 -0500 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Regency Dance workshop NYC Sunday 11/2 To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT-generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT (Regular monthly posting) Summary: New York City, Regency (1810's) dance workshop this Sunday. http://www.elegantarts.org/ Long version: For the New York City-accessible and historically curious, my first Sunday Regency dance workshop is this Sunday, November 2nd, from 1:00 to 4:00 pm. The Regency Dance workshop is my regular monthly workshop on dances suitable for early nineteenth century (Regency, Jane Austen, Napoleonic Wars) England. This month we will be reviewing dances specifically for our Regency Assembly, to be held in New Haven, CT, on Saturday, November 22nd. More information about that is at: http://www.elegantarts.org/ballindex.html. No prior experience needed. The full calendar for (mostly) first Sunday Regency workshops is at: http://www.elegantarts.org/calendar03.html. The 2004 calendar is coming very soon now. All material is taken directly from primary sources and reconstructed and taught by yours truly. If you have questions about it, email me directly. Cost: $15, or $10 for first-timers Shoes: flat shoes only, please. Heels are inappropriate. PLEASE RSVP to: meredith-AT-elegantarts.org - the number of people we are expecting affects how I prepare for the class! (But you can still show up if you don't RSVP.) Location: Hop, Swing, and a Jump, 132 Crosby Street #2 for directions, see our webpage, http://www.elegantarts.org/classprac.html/ This will be our last time at Hop-Swing as they are losing their space. New site next month! For more information about the Elegant Arts Society, please see our website: http://www.elegantarts.org To receive these announcements directly, please email info-AT-elegantarts.org to be added to our mailing list. Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:55:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:26:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Karina Oneill Subject: [SPAM:####] Italian-crafted Rolex - only $65 - $140! Free SHIPPING! jsmgvazmsjd To: ecd-request-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_FyhTZOc88KG71UlRLTNhrg)" --Boundary_(ID_FyhTZOc88KG71UlRLTNhrg) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT please note to send ALL REPLY e-mail direct to our Sales Representative at: Questions-AT-BargainWatches.biz Hi, Thank you for expressing interest in ATGWS watches. We would like to take this opportunity to offer you our fine selection of Italian crafted Rolex Timepieces. You can view our large selection of Rolexes (including Breitling, Tag Heuer, Cartier etc) at: http://www.BargainWatches.biz For all orders placed in the month of November, all shipping and handling charges will be free. As we are the direct manufacturers, you are guaranteed of lowest prices and highest quality each and every time you purchase from us. You may also be interested to know that we have the following brands available in our wide selection as well: 1. Rolex 2. Blancpain 3. Fortis 4. Jaeger LeCoutre 5. Longines 6. Mont Blanc 7. Movado 8. Oris 9. Roger Dubuis 10. Ulysse 11. Zenith 12. Audemar Piguet 13. Breitling 14. Bvglari 15. Cartier 16. Corum 17. Dunhill 18. Franck Muller 19. Gerard Perregaux 20. IWC 21. IWC 22. Panerai 23. Patek Philippe 24. Tag Heuer 25. Vacheron Constantin If you see anything that might interest you, or if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to visit our website at: http://www.BargainWatches.biz I certainly look forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Cal Division Sales Manager ATGWS You received this email because your have previous purchased from, or inquired about our product line under ATGWS. If you do not want to receive further mailings from ATGWS, unsubscribe by sending an email with the title heading: DELETE in the subject line to Unsubscribe-AT-bargainwatches.biz please note to send ALL REPLY e-mail direct to our Sales Representative at: Questions-AT-BargainWatches.biz f mwizqnlx omd hpol txgtjovard npk iicoo chk s aej hhcxhdqf --Boundary_(ID_FyhTZOc88KG71UlRLTNhrg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 15:33:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:33:53 -0500 (EST) From: SallenNic-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Betrothal To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <161.277cf575.2cd59ce1-AT-aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 6.00pm yesterday, October 31st, Aidan Broadbridge of Lanark, Scotland, and Annette Cable of Elizabethton, Tennessee announced their betrothal. Both families are highly delighted, needless to say. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:42:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Betrothal To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031102014328.77183.qmail-AT-web41511.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- SallenNic-AT-AOL.COM wrote: > At 6.00pm yesterday, October 31st, Aidan Broadbridge of > Lanark, Scotland, > and Annette Cable of Elizabethton, Tennessee announced > their betrothal. Both > families are highly delighted, needless to say. > > Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland > HREF="http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com">http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com > Congratulations to you all. HGope you gopt my sketch. Ben Stein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 08:52:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:50:22 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Betrothal To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <004201c3a161$689fab20$7e6d550c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <161.277cf575.2cd59ce1-AT-aol.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: <> And so are their travel agents, no doubt. :-)}}} Congratulations to the happy couple! Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:18:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:18:45 -0500 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: [SPAM:####] Italian-crafted Rolex - only $65 - $140! Free SHIPPING! jsmgvazmsjd To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000101c3a165$5fb06370$2250bc3f-AT-g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What in the world is this doing on the ECD list? And how did it get here? I certainly expressed no interested in Italian rolex watches. I'm happy with my $15 K-Mart special. Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Karina Oneill > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:26 PM > To: ecd-request-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > Subject: [SPAM:####] Italian-crafted Rolex - only $65 - $140! > Free SHIPPING! jsmgvazmsjd ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:38:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:35:42 +0000 From: trev Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Farewell Marian questions To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <003b01c3a263$6515dee0$433c0751-AT-trevormo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L2DOW7MSCW95MSJK-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <001901c39e24$b6439700$064479d5-AT-trevormo> Previously I wrote some details about Farewel Marion and its composer. On reading this again I realised that Gwyn Williams and W.S. Gwynnn Williams may not infact be the same person! The easiest way to check this was to write to the secretary of the WFDS, as he and his wife who we are still friendly with. The relevant section is reproduced below and shows that they are in fact 2 different people, and that he is still alive! He quotes:- With regard to the Gwyn(ne) Williams' - they are two entities, one sadly deceased the other still alive and kicking at Bangor. WS Gwynne Williams, as you rightly mentioned was the publisher and founder member of WFDS along with Lois Blake and others. He lived at Llangollen where he was also founder member of the Llangollen International Eisteddfod. His wife, Betty, died a couple of years ago The other is Gwyn Williams, Bangor, known in WFDS circles as Gwyn Bangor. He is the deviser/arranger of "Ffarwel i'r Marian" (Farewell to the shore) and other dances noteably "Clawdd Offa" (Offa's Dyke); Rhyd y Meirch (Stallion's Ford); and most recently a dance used at the Eisteddfod to greet the winner of a medal. I remember Gwyn Williams teaching "Y Gaseg Eira" (The Snowball - a 'Welsh "Morris" Dance') at a course held in Bangor in the 80's. This is "off the top of my head" - to translate a Welsh phrase. If you need any further information I would have to seek it elsewhere. End quote. So I hope that clears up the situation, especially for Beth (and Alan?). Trev (Monson) > Hi Beth, > > I can't add a lot to Alan's comments, but, > Looking through Dawns (the magazine of WFDS) W.S.Gwynn Williams was > chairman of Cymdeithas Ddawns Werin Cymru (The Welsh Folk Dance > Society) from 1949-1971, Vice-president from 1971-1975 and president > from 1975-1979. I don't know what happened to him after that. > > He was the Proprietor and General Editor of The Gwynn Publishing Co. > from Llangollen, and this company published many Welsh Folk Dance and > Song books. > "Welsh Morris and other Country Dances" which I have in front of me was > copyrighted 1938 which is over 10 years before the WFDS was started. > > The leaflet that Alan mentioned - "4 Welsh Barn Dances" states that > Ffarwel Marian was ARRANGED by Gwynn Williams. However, the next dance > "Clawdd Offa" or "Offa's Dyke" or "Oswestry Square" was DEVISED by him > (I never realised that before now - and I've been dancing and calling > that dance for years!) > So it looks like he has a composed at least one dance - and it is still > danced a lot. > As Ffarwel Marian was arranged by him he could have well found it in > some older collection? > > The dance is called Ffarwel Marian - Goodbye Marian. The tune is called > Ffarwel I'r Marian - Farewell to the Shore, so Alan is partly right - > but that's only because I have got the leaflet in front of me. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 27/10/03 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:10:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:10:05 -0700 From: jared gottlieb Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Final Dance at Well Hall To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT TUESDAY 11th November - is the last day of English dancing at Well Hall. To all interested in English Country Dancing, an invitation to dance in this fine dance hall on the last occasion we will be able to dance there. Please bring a plate of food to share. When - 7.45 pm Where - Well Hall, 11-13 Yann Street, Preston (Melbourne, Victoria (Australia)) Enquiries - George on (03) 9890 5650 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:41:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 16:41:32 -0500 From: Den Collins Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: =?8859_1?B?k0E=?= Flutter of Pleasure" ECD Holiday Ball in Greenwich Village, NYC To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031107214132.HZPR1420.out003.verizon.net-AT-outgoing.verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Saturday, December 6 “A Flutter of Pleasure” A Holiday English Country Dance Ball in Greenwich Village The New York Lesbian & Gay Contradance Series invites you to dance with us this holiday season at the FIRST EVER gender-role free English Country Dance Ball on Saturday, December 6. There will be a workshop in the afternoon from 2:00 to 5:00, the Ball from 7:30 to 10:30 that evening, and sumptuous desserts and refreshments served at the evening break. Graham Christian will be calling. You can check out his program and view the dance instructions at our website, www.lcfd.org/nyc (should be active by Monday, November 10th). Music will be by the Flying Romanos. Period, formal or festive attire is requested, but not required, so break out those pearls and opera gloves, the waistcoats and breeches, and come help us celebrate this inaugural event. Combined workshop and Ball, $15 Ball only, $10 RSVP appreciated, but not required. Room 301, The LGBT Community Center The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender Community Center is located in the heart of Greenwich Village at 208 West 13th Street, New York, NY 10011. You can reach the Center easily by subway: on the IRT Broadway/Seventh Avenue line, take the IRT 1, 2, 3 or 9 (the red line) to 14th Street at Seventh Avenue; on the IND line, take the A, C or E (the blue line) to 14th Street at Eighth Avenue. For more info, call Brooks, 718.796.4422, or Tom, 718.499.1936, or visit http://www.lcfd.org/nyc You can also e-mail Den Collins at den.collins-AT-verizon.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 19:48:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:40:26 -0600 From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Help Anna Maria - Fried's Dance To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031109213918.01be4e60-AT-mail.mhtc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT need a lead to acquire a copy of Ease and Elegance or the directions for Fried's Anna Maria...aka track 10 Bare Necessities at the Ball (Boston Centre vol 6) M.G. Mudrey 106 Ravine Road Mount Horeb, WI 53572 mgmudrey-AT-mhtc.net 608-437-3701 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:33:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:32:58 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Anna Maria: Help is on the way To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031110043258.82990.qmail-AT-web20602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT With all due respect to Fried's brilliance as a choreographer, I would like to squelch firmly any idea that she somehow *wrote* "Anna Maria." I don't think Mr. Mudrey said quite this, but some might misinterpret from a casual glance. "Anna Maria" is a dance that appeared in Playford in 1695 (that's B.F.: Before Fried). While she does include an interpretation in one of her volumes, I regard it as in no way difficult to interpret from Playford (and I expect she would say the same). The original text: "The 1. Cu. take hands and lead through the 2. Cu. and cast up into their own places:_The 2. Cu. lead up through the 1. Cu. and cast off into their own places:_ All four hands half round, then cross over with your own Partners:_The 1. Cu. being in the 2.Cu. place, go the figure thro' till the 1. Cu. comes into the 2. Cu. place." So: A1 1s lead down through the 2s and cast back up to places. A2 2d lead up through the 1s and cast back down to places. [These leads and casts are slow--12 beats! and dancers should be encouraged to use all the time. Originally perhaps courante steps or slow bouree steps] B1 1s and 2s circle half-way; partners change places, passing right shoulders: all end facing up. B2 Double figures-of-eight, 2s casting and 1s crossing to begin [much brisker movements!]. "The Anna Maria" that appears in Fallibroome 5 is an entirely different dance: it comes from the Thomas Budd collection of 1781. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:55:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:55:22 -0800 From: Michael Siemon Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Anna Maria: Help is on the way To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <16EBB9E4-133A-11D8-8646-000A9578B83A-AT-panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031110043258.82990.qmail-AT-web20602.mail.yahoo.com> On Nov 9, 2003, at 8:32 PM, Graham Christian wrote: > With all due respect to Fried's brilliance as a > choreographer, I would like to squelch firmly any idea > that she somehow *wrote* "Anna Maria." I don't think > Mr. Mudrey said quite this, but some might > misinterpret from a casual glance. > "Anna Maria" is a dance that appeared in Playford in > 1695 (that's B.F.: Before Fried). While she does > include an interpretation in one of her volumes, I > regard it as in no way difficult to interpret from > Playford (and I expect she would say the same). Certainly. Fried is very much concerned that early dances have a major part in the current repertoire, and she will call attention to them in the midst of her own dances, when they are not otherwise well-known. Most of her publications include a fair number of such cases. Sometimes there is major "reconstruction" -- but I think her main consideration is "here is a good dance which isn't well known". ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:59:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:59:01 -0800 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Anna Maria: Help is on the way To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031109204802.0249ccd8-AT-popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In response to Graham's note, let me add that Fried has never claimed the interpretation of Anna Maria in Ease & Elegance as her own, but in that book states it was "Contributed by Frank Van Cleef" to the Pinewoods Fund Dance Collection (where he called it Maria Anna, in an attempt to prevent its being confused with the Fallibroome dance). She does, however, enjoy calling the dance, and recommends a skipping step for the double figure of 8. Yours in the ongoing search for dance trivia, Sharon At 08:32 PM 11/9/2003 -0800, you wrote: >With all due respect to Fried's brilliance as a >choreographer, I would like to squelch firmly any idea >that she somehow *wrote* "Anna Maria." I don't think >Mr. Mudrey said quite this, but some might >misinterpret from a casual glance. >"Anna Maria" is a dance that appeared in Playford in >1695 (that's B.F.: Before Fried). While she does >include an interpretation in one of her volumes, I >regard it as in no way difficult to interpret from >Playford (and I expect she would say the same). >The original text: >"The 1. Cu. take hands and lead through the 2. Cu. and >cast up into their own places:_The 2. Cu. lead up >through the 1. Cu. and cast off into their own >places:_ >All four hands half round, then cross over with your >own Partners:_The 1. Cu. being in the 2.Cu. place, go >the figure thro' till the 1. Cu. comes into the 2. Cu. >place." >So: >A1 1s lead down through the 2s and cast back up to >places. >A2 2d lead up through the 1s and cast back down to >places. >[These leads and casts are slow--12 beats! and dancers >should be encouraged to use all the time. Originally >perhaps courante steps or slow bouree steps] >B1 1s and 2s circle half-way; partners change places, >passing right shoulders: all end facing up. >B2 Double figures-of-eight, 2s casting and 1s crossing >to begin [much brisker movements!]. > >"The Anna Maria" that appears in Fallibroome 5 is an >entirely different dance: it comes from the Thomas >Budd collection of 1781. > >===== >Graham Christian >"They love dance well that will dance among thorns." > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard >http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:10:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Anna Maria: Help is on the way, &c. &c. &c. To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031110161003.67777.qmail-AT-web20605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I wholly endorse what both Michael and Sharon have said: true on all counts. Which reminds me that Frank van Cleef's work as a reconstructor is too little known--his *Twenty-Four Country Dances from the Playford Editions* includes "Alchurch" and "Well-Hall," as well as "Bump Her Belly" (and it's a darned shame that the dance doesn't quite live up to the name, but that's not van Cleef's fault). About two years ago, I did a little investigation, and I think I have a good candidate for the identity of Anna Maria, but I won't bore the list with it. Interested parties may write to me privately for the dirt. G ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:15:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:10:55 +0000 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Anna Maria: Help is on the way To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <001a01c3a7a5$3c5a5020$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The interpretation provided by Graham for the B2 part of Anna Maria is: "B2 Double figures-of-eight, 2s casting and 1s crossing to begin" whereas the original says "The 1. Cu. being in the 2.Cu. place, go the figure thro' till the 1. Cu. comes into the 2. Cu. Place". My own interpretation would differ from this. I would either have the 1st couple only doing a whole figure of eight up through the 2nd couple or would have the 1st couple only doing a half figure of eight up through the second couple. The first of these alternatives has the disadvantage that it requires the dancers to cover twice the distance they cover to the same amount of music in the A parts. This is physically possible as the tune is in 3/2 but I am unsure that it is philosophically correct to have huge changes of dance speed within a dance. The second alternative leaves the first couple improper but this is of no consequence to the dance. Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:02:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:02:12 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Figuring Anna Maria To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031110170212.40506.qmail-AT-web20606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT With all respect to Mr. Barraclough, I hold my ground. The interpretation I offer is what van Cleef suggests and Fried (and many others, including me) have taught since. Yes, we all add the 2s' casting and figuring--but if you don't, and the 1s are doing a whole figure, their track is even harder--now they're figuring around inert bodies, rather than through space. An ornament, strictly speaking--but we are talking about 1695 here, and these dances are full of twirls and loops that are not necessary to the 1s' movements or to the progression (Trip to the Jubilee; Up with Aily [to either tune!]). If I may make an analogy to contemporary music, Corelli without ornaments is still Corelli, but perhaps missing something; Couperin without ornaments is actually incorrect--he has a tutorial of several pages on how to execute his ornaments. Nor can I imagine half-figuring and leaving the 1s improper every other round--how is that of no consequence? I think even in 1695 the dancers would have found that anomalous and problematic. There are rare instances of dances where the 1s begin and end each round improper (King of Poland; Bartlett House in Bray, &c.)--but I can't think of any that deposit them improper every *other* round. But my knowledge here may be incomplete. Nor do I find the change of speed unlikely--an easy parallel example occurs in Childgrove, where neighbors turn once and a half (4 bars) and then partners turn once (4 bars). Plus, Baroque style is all about sudden and even startling contrasts (Bernini, Vivaldi). I think Mr. Barraclough and I may have to agree to disagree here. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:34:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:30:38 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Anna Maria: Help is on the way, &c. &c. &c. To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L2V3NMACQK990RKG-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Graham wrote: > I wholly endorse what both Michael and Sharon have > said: true on all counts. Which reminds me that Frank > van Cleef's work as a reconstructor is too little > known--his *Twenty-Four Country Dances from the > Playford Editions* includes "Alchurch" and > "Well-Hall," as well as "Bump Her Belly" (and it's a > darned shame that the dance doesn't quite live up to > the name, but that's not van Cleef's fault). This "too little known" may have something to do with that book or booklet being out of print for years. (I'd love to be wrong about this so I could buy a copy, but I've checked several times in the last ten years.) I wonder whether some arrangement could possibly be made with the copyright holder to post scans of the book on the Web or otherwise make the content available. > About two years ago, I did a little investigation, and > I think I have a good candidate for the identity of > Anna Maria, but I won't bore the list with it. > Interested parties may write to me privately for the > dirt. Since I'm writing in public for the first part of the response, I'll express my interest in this here and invite you to reply off-list. Thanks, -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:59:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: van Cleef To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031110185943.20351.qmail-AT-web20604.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes, Alan--I myself bought the last copy (from the Hildebrands, if memory serves). I am not certain who holds copyright on the volume now. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:01:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:00:42 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Anna Maria: Help is on the way, &c. &c. &c. To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <00f701c3a7bc$f116cf40$f179550c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L2V3NMACQK990RKG-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing > About two years ago, I did a little investigation, and > I think I have a good candidate for the identity of > Anna Maria, but I won't bore the list with it. > Interested parties may write to me privately for the > dirt. <> Personally, I'd just as soon see it on-list; I suspect most of us are happily tantalized by the hint. Those who aren't can always hit "delete". Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:14:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Very well: scurrilous speculation about Anna Maria follows. To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031110191425.66203.qmail-AT-web20608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I suspect that our Anna Maria was Anna Maria Brudenell (1642-1702), the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Cardigan. She married the 11th Earl of Shrewsbury in 1659. He died in 1668 from wounds received in a duel with her lover, George Villiers, the 2nd Duke of Buckingham. According to rumor, Anna Maria attended the duel dressed as a page, and held Buckingham's horse. She was forced to break off her affair with Buckingham in 1673 after her son's trustees petitioned the House of Lords (whether because she was embarrassing the family name or because she was drawing too heavily on her son's inheritance my source does not specify: more likely the latter). She promptly entered a convent in Paris 1674, returned to England the following year, and by 1677 had married a George Rodney Bridges of Somerset. Anna Maria would have been in her fifties by the time this dance appeared, but her beauty remained proverbial well into the eighteenth century. And of course, we don't know by how long the dance's creation preceded its publication--there's nothing about it that says it couldn't have been a dance of the late 1670s. Anna Maria has always struck me as one of those people it's better to know from a distance--at least arm's length; several miles better. This is too small a nugget to bother publishing, but if you do mention it, give me a tiny credit: "Well, Graham C. thinks..." ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:15:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:06:15 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: van Cleef To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_vbupshbF1cooiaAo7i/8Zg)" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_vbupshbF1cooiaAo7i/8Zg) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6viExoCwcxnqRw88jME3GQ)" --Boundary_(ID_6viExoCwcxnqRw88jME3GQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Doesn't CDIC (Country Dance in Connecticut) still hold the copyright? I'll ask around. I finally sold off all but two copies about 5 years ago and I plan to keep those. Cammy Graham Christian Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu 10-Nov-2003 01:59 PM Please respond to ECD To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu cc: Subject: van Cleef Yes, Alan--I myself bought the last copy (from the Hildebrands, if memory serves). I am not certain who holds copyright on the volume now. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --Boundary_(ID_6viExoCwcxnqRw88jME3GQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Doesn't CDIC (Country Dance in Connecticut) still hold the copyright? I'll ask around. I finally sold off all but two copies about 5 years ago and I plan to keep those.
Cammy


Graham Christian <bray1699-AT-yahoo.com>
Sent by: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu

10-Nov-2003 01:59 PM
Please respond to ECD

       
        To:        ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu
        cc:        
        Subject:        van Cleef



Yes, Alan--I myself bought the last copy (from the
Hildebrands, if memory serves). I am not certain who
holds copyright on the volume now.

=====
Graham Christian
"They love dance well that will dance among thorns."

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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--Boundary_(ID_6viExoCwcxnqRw88jME3GQ)-- --Boundary_(ID_vbupshbF1cooiaAo7i/8Zg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:43:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:40:50 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Very well: scurrilous speculation about Anna Maria follows. To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L2V85W7O2U98BO66-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Graham wrote: > I suspect that our Anna Maria was Anna Maria Brudenell > (1642-1702), the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Cardigan. > She married the 11th Earl of Shrewsbury in 1659. He > died in 1668 from wounds received in a duel with her > lover, George Villiers, the 2nd Duke of Buckingham. > According to rumor, Anna Maria attended the duel > dressed as a page, and held Buckingham's horse. She > was forced to break off her affair with Buckingham in > 1673 after her son's trustees petitioned the House of > Lords (whether because she was embarrassing the family > name or because she was drawing too heavily on her > son's inheritance my source does not specify: more > likely the latter). She promptly entered a convent in > Paris 1674, returned to England the following year, > and by 1677 had married a George Rodney Bridges of > Somerset. > Anna Maria would have been in her fifties by the time > this dance appeared, but her beauty remained > proverbial well into the eighteenth century. And of > course, we don't know by how long the dance's creation > preceded its publication--there's nothing about it > that says it couldn't have been a dance of the late > 1670s. Anna Maria has always struck me as one of those > people it's better to know from a distance--at least > arm's length; several miles better. > This is too small a nugget to bother publishing, but > if you do mention it, give me a tiny credit: "Well, > Graham C. thinks..." Actually, this looks like a great size of nugget for the CDSS News, which does have several pages of good shortish bits. (But my editorial judgment has nothing to do with CDSS's editorial judgment, so my saying that may mean nothing.) I like this kind of stuff and think it enriches the ECD experience, so I'd encourage you to put this sort of nugget on the list. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:50:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:45:54 +0000 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Figuring Anna Maria To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <002c01c3a7dc$66708640$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Graham Christian makes some interesting comments on my suggestions for other interpretations of the original dance description of Anna Maria. I should have made clear that my offerings were solely for those who might be interested in authentic performance. I have no problem with modern interpretations, however far they may be from the likely original, if they are for modern consumption in a modern context (eg ECD, English folk dance clubs etc). However, if the intention is to perform these dances for an audience where the audience is expecting "authenticity" then I believe that we have a duty of care to be as reasonably authentic as we can. It is on this basis that I rule out the possibility that both couples are active in the B2 part of the dance (since the direction is solely for the 1st couple). Given that only one couple is to be active then we appear to have two choices, both of which present some difficulties. Graham makes some interesting challenges, my responses on which are as follows. I am not sure that the analogy with ornaments in music is valid. We are talking about dance figures here. A whole figure of eight is not an ornament of 1/2 a figure of eight - it is a different figure. In the same vein, a double figure of eight is not an ornamented single figure of eight it is a different figure. To take an analogy from contra dance - lines forward and back is not the same as dosido but spinning round in a dosido is an ornamented dosido. With regard to changes of speed, I defer to my mentor, the late Belinda Quirey. We discussed this concept on several occasions and she was quite firm in her view that (in baroque dance) changes of speed in performance were unlikely, except where the tune itself changed speed (eg Graies Inn Masque). Changes in speed of footwork (more divisions in the footwork) are definitely acceptable, but not significant changes of speed over the ground. The only changes of speed that I personally am happy with are where the dancers slow down in response to faster music. In Anna Maria this does not apply as it is the same music so I cannot see why the dancers should change speed. I am also at a loss to understand why the dancers should change step in B2 (skip change is suggested) compared to B1 which is the same music. Another reason to be concerned about requiring a change of speed relates to the clothing worn then. This was much heavier than now and even when modern dancers dress "authentically" this is often for theatrical effect and the clothes are not constructed authentically or use materials of appropriate weight. Sudden changes in direction or in speed when authentic clothing is worn will result in clothing doing one thing whilst the dancers do something else - I cannot believe that this would have been acceptable. The choreography also gives us another clue that change of speed was unlikely. The 'fast' B2, executed by the 1st couple is immediately followed by the 'slow' A1, executed by the 1st couple. There is, therefore, no opportunity for the clothing to come to equilibrium between the movements since the leading movement in A1 follows directly from the figuring movement (however one does it) in B2. I agree that leaving the 1st couple improper every other round may be anomalous although I recollect that I have seen other dances that could be interpreted in this way. I am not sure, however, why it is problematic. If one inspects the choreography, the only thing that the 1st couple does with the 2nd couple is circle half way round. Since there are many examples of circles where one couple is improper vis-à-vis the other (as well as where the same sexes are together) it clearly was of no consequence to the dancers as to who they held hands with in the circle. In reconstructing it the way he has, Frank van Cleef has provided an interesting dance for modern dancers. In the introduction to his book 'Twenty Four Country Dances from the Playford Editions' (1979) Frank states "The original directions are presented here so that the interested observer may note how the modern version varies from the original shorthand. I have tried to keep the movements of the active couple as close to the original directions, making changes only to clarify the text, fit the music, or increase the activity for inactive couples. ... These are not "historical" dances to be performed in the costume and style of the 17th century. These are modern dances to be enjoyed in modern dress, at modern tempos, with modern, unaffected footwork. .. They are for the pleasure of modern dancers, not the scrutiny of dance historians. They should be judged, not on whether they contain anachronisms or depart from the original, but rather than whether they give pleasure and artistic satisfaction to modern dancers." His comments are excellent and apply equally well to his interpretation of Anna Maria. An Anna Maria with walked A1/A2/B1 and skipped double figure in B2 is just fine for the dance club. To me it would be as unacceptable as using an accordion or piano in an authentic performance of seventeenth century country dances. Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Graham Christian Sent: 10 November 2003 17:02 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Figuring Anna Maria With all respect to Mr. Barraclough, I hold my ground. The interpretation I offer is what van Cleef suggests and Fried (and many others, including me) have taught since. Yes, we all add the 2s' casting and figuring--but if you don't, and the 1s are doing a whole figure, their track is even harder--now they're figuring around inert bodies, rather than through space. An ornament, strictly speaking--but we are talking about 1695 here, and these dances are full of twirls and loops that are not necessary to the 1s' movements or to the progression (Trip to the Jubilee; Up with Aily [to either tune!]). If I may make an analogy to contemporary music, Corelli without ornaments is still Corelli, but perhaps missing something; Couperin without ornaments is actually incorrect--he has a tutorial of several pages on how to execute his ornaments. Nor can I imagine half-figuring and leaving the 1s improper every other round--how is that of no consequence? I think even in 1695 the dancers would have found that anomalous and problematic. There are rare instances of dances where the 1s begin and end each round improper (King of Poland; Bartlett House in Bray, &c.)--but I can't think of any that deposit them improper every *other* round. But my knowledge here may be incomplete. Nor do I find the change of speed unlikely--an easy parallel example occurs in Childgrove, where neighbors turn once and a half (4 bars) and then partners turn once (4 bars). Plus, Baroque style is all about sudden and even startling contrasts (Bernini, Vivaldi). I think Mr. Barraclough and I may have to agree to disagree here. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:04:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:04:46 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Figuring Anna Maria, again... To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031111040446.77260.qmail-AT-web20608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am not entirely unacquainted with historical dance practice, and I respectfully disagree with Mr. Barraclough on all points. His perceptions (and his mentor's) about speed changes do not match my knowledge and observation of Baroque dance as I have seen it interpreted recently. Nor do I agree that silence with regard to the 2s is equivalent to stillness--it would be possible to infer from some sources--admittedly, all frustratingly non-specific--that the 2s (3s, 4s!) might well be moving in a frolic of their own, as long as they did not actively *interfere* with the 1s' track (see Tomlinson). Nor do I agree with his assertion about the nonparallelism of ornament in differing arts. Nor do I agree that the 1s end improper every other round: I truly know of *no* precedent in the Playford and contemporary sources that indicate such a progression in a longways dance (the early sets are admittedly a wholly different matter). Even a dance like "King of Poland" indicates that the 1s *begin* improper, and there is every indication that they end so. I know of no dance where it says, "At the end of the second Strain, the 1. man is Improper" or anything of the kind. Nor do I even agree with his perception about contemporary clothing. In the absence of recordings or metronome markings from the period, it is as likely that dancers anchored their clothing well, and then "devil take the hindmost. In the case of theatrical professionals, their costumery, even when they were portraying contemporary persons, was modified to enable their movement (slightly shorter skirts, for one example). I seem to recall that there was discussion either on this list or elsewhere on the Net, about speed in historical dance, and my recollection is that Wilson, in the 1810s, indicates something like 120 or so beats per minute on the half-measure (for a 6/8 jig rhythm) as a good tempo for a country dance--that's a pretty good clip. Was this a faster tempo than 1695? or 1750? We cannot know: but even in 1810, you still have hair-falls and watch-fobs and tight shoes to worry about. As I have said, I think Mr. Barraclough and I will simply have to agree to disagree here. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:05:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:04:45 -0700 From: Vickie Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT One of our group recently received the following from one of our novice dancers who went away to college and wanted to continue with ECD. Names have been omitted for obvious reasons. Food for thought, Ed ************************** "I want to come and give you the biggest hug right now!  Just to let you know how much I appreciate you.  ... and I and 2 friends went to the ball with ... on saturday and ... was running it.  We couldn't go to the practices because ... has a nursing newborn and the first dance we went out there to try it and we became the group that was picked on, pushed (literally, when I was out of place) and I felt like I was going to get my head cut off at any moment.  Later in the evening we did trip to paris and well hall because those were the only 2 I knew.  It was fun to dress up but the ball itself was such a negative experience.  So I just wanted to thank you for always being so welcoming and great.  I haven't been to the group since I came back from ... but I will soon ...  How thankful I am to be a part of the Riverside bunch!  I appreciate all of you!" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:37:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:37:03 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vincent Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20031111133703.70707.qmail-AT-web12203.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Of course, it's impossible to draw conclusions from only one side of the story, but let me ask question: Was it a called ball or were all the dancers expected to know all the dances? By ...'s own admission, ... only knew two of the dances. Not to excuse boarish behavior, but if two novices went in the wrong directions in a non-called dance that everyone else knew -- and all attendees were *expected* to know -- someone might guide/push them in the right direction. Was it just one person, one incident? Or was it a consistant problem, pinballing the novices like an ECD version of 'A Night at the Roxbury'? Anyway, I'd sure like to know where and when this happened so we could possibly hear from any other attendees for either corroborating or conflicting viewpoints. It really isn't fair to condemn an unknown and unidentified ball and, in fact, it puts all of them into suspicion. Also, how are attendees/organizers to know of problems in civility or maybe just miscommunication if they don't hear about them? --- Vickie wrote: > One of our group recently received the following > from one of our novice > dancers who went away to college and wanted to > continue with ECD. > > Names have been omitted for obvious reasons. > > Food for thought, > Ed > ************************** > "I want to come and give you the biggest hug right > now!  Just to let you > know how much I appreciate you.  ... and I and 2 > friends went to the ball > with ... on saturday and ... was running it.  We > couldn't go to the > practices because ... has a nursing newborn and the > first dance we went out > there to try it and we became the group that was > picked on, pushed > (literally, when I was out of place) and I felt like > I was going to get my > head cut off at any moment.  Later in the evening we > did trip to paris and > well hall because those were the only 2 I knew.  It > was fun to dress up but > the ball itself was such a negative experience.  So > I just wanted to thank > you for always being so welcoming and great.  I > haven't been to the group > since I came back from ... but I will soon ...  How > thankful I am to be a > part of the Riverside bunch!  I appreciate all of > you!" > ===== Tom Vincent I looked up the definition of 'liberal' in a Random House dictionary. It gave the synonyms for 'liberal' as 'progressive', 'broad-minded', 'unprejudiced', 'beneficent'. The antonyms it offered: 'reactionary' and 'intolerant'. -- Walter Cronkite www.deanforamerica.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:25:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:23:36 -0500 From: Deb Karl Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FB0F0E8.FBE1F9B0-AT-wi.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031111133703.70707.qmail-AT-web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Tom Vincent wrote: > > Not to excuse boarish behavior assume Tom means "boorish" behavior, but the mental picture of havoc caused by two wild boars making their way a longways set does call to mind what can happen when beginners (new or perpetual) are dancing.... --Deb ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:50:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:49:39 -0500 (EST) From: Russiababy-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <74.3521b9f4.2ce25103-AT-aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qMOxYgmfD4ScwQmvcR2jow)" --Boundary_(ID_qMOxYgmfD4ScwQmvcR2jow) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 11/11/2003 8:45:47 AM Central Standard Time, debkarl-AT-WI.MIT.EDU writes: Tom Vincent wrote: > > Not to excuse boarish behavior assume Tom means "boorish" behavior, but the mental picture of havoc caused by two wild boars making their way a longways set does call to mind what can happen when beginners (new or perpetual) are dancing.... It was a lovely mistake, visually speaking. I laughed when I read it, too. --Boundary_(ID_qMOxYgmfD4ScwQmvcR2jow) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
In a message dated 11/11/2003 8:45:47 AM Central Standard Time, debkarl-AT-WI.MIT.EDU writes:
Tom Vincent wrote:
>
> Not to excuse boarish behavior

assume Tom means "boorish" behavior, but the mental picture of havoc
caused by two wild boars making their way a longways set does call to
mind what can happen when beginners (new or perpetual) are dancing....
It was a lovely mistake, visually speaking.  I laughed when I read it, too.
--Boundary_(ID_qMOxYgmfD4ScwQmvcR2jow)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:01:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:01:24 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vincent Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20031111150124.76190.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ack! And I thought I caught that!! I know I've been accused of being a ham, but this is ridiculous! --- Deb Karl wrote: > > Tom Vincent wrote: > > > > Not to excuse boarish behavior > > assume Tom means "boorish" behavior, but the mental > picture of havoc > caused by two wild boars making their way a longways > set does call to > mind what can happen when beginners (new or > perpetual) are dancing.... > > --Deb ===== Tom Vincent I looked up the definition of 'liberal' in a Random House dictionary. It gave the synonyms for 'liberal' as 'progressive', 'broad-minded', 'unprejudiced', 'beneficent'. The antonyms it offered: 'reactionary' and 'intolerant'. -- Walter Cronkite www.deanforamerica.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:22:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:18:40 -0500 From: franch-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031111.101842.-437235.2.franch-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Civility to novices is very important. It is also important to remember that civility to novices is just a subset of civility to everyone. As an experienced dancer who sometimes becomes befuddled and welcomes help, I can tell you that the manner in which it is given makes all the difference. Mike Franch ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:37:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:35:09 -0500 From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: On Nov 10, 2003, at 11:04 PM, Vickie wrote: > One of our group recently received the following from one of our novice > dancers who went away to college and wanted to continue with ECD. > > Names have been omitted for obvious reasons. > > Food for thought, > Ed > This is clearly an unfortunate situation. It underlines the importance of being clear on the expectations of the dancers at the Ball. These expectations should be stated on the flyer, and on the letter of acceptance sent out by the registrar. It is also good to have practice sessions at a variety of times so that everybody within an hour's drive can make at least one of them. Novices should use the practice sessions to test the waters. In the past, we have had people from out of town come to our afternoon practice, and just realize that they didn't know the dances well enough to do the evening program. That said, from time to time you might still get a situation like the one described in Ed's letter. I like the idea of a group of local dance angels, who are used to working with beginners and with each other, stepping in and dividing up the responsibility of hosting our hapless guests. Everybody at the Ball is a guest of the whole community. The issue of giving guidance to lost dancers is not easy. I think people mean well, and they want to help, but if they are using most of their RAM on keeping to the pattern, then are suddenly surprised by a beginner taking a wrong turn, they are likely to grab at somebody. I think leaders can help if they see this going on, by trying to understand why people are doing it, and going over the causes they can see with the dancers, so as a community we work on other approaches. The worst cases are usually two inexperienced dancers dancing together; leaders should be willing to break pairs like this up. This, of course, is another place where a group of dance angels is a big help. Best, Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:48:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:44:45 -0500 From: Daniel Pentlarge Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Not wishing to bore anyone... To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Not being myself really a model of orthography, and having missed the spelling error until it was highlighted, I went direct to the question of civility or incivility to newcomers. In what circumstance is it permissible to lay hands on another person? I suppose when life or limb are endangered. Otherwise? Intimates, perhaps. Others? I can't see it. Competent dancers should be able to indicate direction with gesture or expression. Words should not even be necessary. I cannot see how anyone who lays hands on a stranger in a social dance (other than as *required* by the figures of the dance) could be considered anything but a boor (unless it would be a boar.) We, who know so much, sometimes mistake ignorance for discourtesy. It is not. A newcomer who somehow stumbles into a ball at which all dancers are expected to know all the dances is not at fault for so doing, rather it may be the fault of the person who invited them, or who designed or wrote the flyer and failed to use language clear to the uninitiated. Such a newcomer may be welcomed graciously, have their finery admired, introduced to expert dancers who may be able to smooth their way, may coached on the sidelines, may be guided to attempt one or two of the simpler dances from the evening's offering. Conceivably, in a *very* gracious and hospitable group, the program might be altered to include *calling* a few dances and even some instruction. It might even be felt to be a discourtesy for a really gracious group *not* to do so little as that. Here in New England we mark side street with street signs, but almost never mark the main streets, because, after all, if you don't know where you are, you probably shouldn't be there, should you? I often feel that some of our dances here in New England have a similar attitude. If you don't already know all our dances, and the way we do them here (heaven forefend someone should have learned a *variant* -i.e., incorrect- version of a dance in some less enlightened region), then you should regard yourself as a rank beginner, go only to beginner dances, and *expect* that people will shove you around on the dance floor. I am disappointed to gather that across the list we have no dances where courtesy and hospitality and graciousness are the hallmarks and that none of our dances are above suspicion when discourtesy is alleged. I think that if we work on that, newcomers will less often be repelled by our bad behavior, will more often be drawn to our groups, and English Country Dancing shall not perish from the earth. If we don't work on that, I have grave fears. Yours from the banks of the Charles, Daniel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:23:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:15:20 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Not wishing to bore anyone... To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Daniel, I bore this as long as I could until I just had to add my 2 cents: 1) As boorish as it may seem, I have managed to help quite a number of dancers to grasp a figure (e.g., circular hey) by standing behind them with my hands on their shoulders, steering them through the figure once or twice until they get the hang of it. This is done of course after exhausting alternative means (words, gestures, etc.... and of course I let them know what I intend and gaining some sort of acquiescence in the maneuver). So I believe that it is possible to be courteous, gracious, and physically helpful all at once. 2) I have always felt that the joy of including any newcomer who should happen to drop in, is of more value than the joy of clinging to some ideal of what my event should be. The appearance of novices at the more exclusive events such as the balls is not a rare accident. It is almost predictable that one or several will be there as guests of avid dancers, as chance passersby, or ignorant enough not grasp the nature of the event from the language in the publicity. And just think of it - what better introduction to some of the joys of ECD than a Ball! I am always prepared to alter the program to accommodate such people and the list of likely prospects contains enough dances of various technical challenge that it is not hard to accommodate and stay within the publicized repertoire. 3) I feel that today's dancers are being subjected to a larger accumulated repertoire of dances than was the case at any moment in time historically. Feeling thus, I consider it a little unfair to expect today's dancers to remember the figures and stylistic nuances (especially for those of us of little brain). Therefore I teach all the dances even at my balls. In other words, I take issue with your rather blanket assertion that "...across the list we have no dances where courtesy and hospitality and graciousness are the hallmarks." But I agree "...that none of our dances are above suspicion when discourtesy is alleged." None of our dances should be above suspicion. Neither I nor anyone I know is 100% courteous 100% of the time even when we mean to be. It is by being self-critical that we can at least feel the situation is improving! I teach the dances, I welcome the newcomers, I even invite sit-ins to join the band. So perhaps my balls are not balls in the sense that others' are and for this reason I label them Playford Parties to distinguish them from the "balls" that others run. And how is it different from a regular ECD? Partly the people who are no longer dancing on a regular basis who come out of the woodwork for these parties, partly the festive and period dress, partly the fact that the vast majority are familiar with the dances so the dancing quality and flow are a notch higher than the regular events, and partly that the musicians have had a list of tunes to rehearse for many weeks in advance so they can focus even more of their attention on the dancing while they play. Somehow it all comes out feeling like a ball in the end but I avoid the term because of the stereotype that has evolved at other dances. The word "ball" itself is enough to turn away some dancers. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:56:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:56:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Not wishing to bore anyone... To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Daniel Pentlarge wrote in part): > In what circumstance is it permissible to lay hands on another person? Never under social circumstances -- unless of course you are dancing with that person and thelaying of hands is part of the dance. But for a teacher to shove a dancer around in a social situaltion, I repeat, never. In a class? Only if the student asks for it. Musch better to tell the student to follow yo than to push them through the path. They'll be so busy being embarassed that they won't learn -- or so mad at you that they won't return. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (Priscilla.Burrage-AT-uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:59:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:57:47 -0500 From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Not wishing to bore anyone... To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <15BF5BE2-1492-11D8-9DA3-000393B84248-AT-research.neu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Good people behave badly for a reason. Unless you understand the reason, saying "no!" won't get you what you want. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:24:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:24:39 -0500 From: Tom Vincent Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Not wishing to bore anyone... To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01e001c3a97c$8772ea80$6ec35244-AT-Hawk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: I have to supply an extremely fresh counter-example. At a dance very recently, there were two extremely dim bulbs in our set and they just never got the moves to the dance, standing like deer caught in headlights. One wonderfully ascertive, experienced woman grabbed them by the shoulders and ascertively steered them in the right directions. (I use the word 'ascertive' repeatedly with deliberation, though an observer of the incident may have described it as 'aggressive') I think the two 'dancers' (and I use the term loosely!) actually appreciated it. I certainly got more than a little chuckle out of it, I must admit. Was the woman helpful? Yes. Was she exasperated? Yes. Cruel? Maybe...but don't the 'dancers' have a bit of a responsibility to learn their own limits and avoid ruining the dance for the other people? Bow out when they realize that the steps are just beyond them? I don't know...I certainly don't mind giving some additional attention to those in need: We've all been there at one time or another. One of them has been participating in the dances on and off for at least a year and is a train-wreck in all but the most simple dances. He certainly enjoys the dances he can handle, but quickly turns into a bumbling handicap far too often. At what point does one take the dance-inept aside and simply point out the obvious? I've had to deal with drunk newbies who think tossin' back a few will make the moves come easily, gym-rats who gorilla women into unexpected moves leading to strained wrists and a grossly obese man who sweated profusely to the point of causing severe cringing -- if not nausea -- in the women cursed with having to balance-and-swing him (think dancing with a 400-lb slug). As President of the dance organization and one of the primary callers, I was 'blessed' with the task of explaining the importance of personal hygiene to him. Not fun. So, pushing a newbie around? No, clearly. Pushing a relatively seasoned 'dancer' who doesn't know his own level of incompetency? Maybe not so clear. Tom Vincent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Not wishing to bore anyone... > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Daniel Pentlarge wrote in part): > > > In what circumstance is it permissible to lay hands on another person? > > Never under social circumstances -- unless of course you are dancing with > that person and thelaying of hands is part of the dance. > > But for a teacher to shove a dancer around in a social situaltion, I > repeat, never. In a class? Only if the student asks for it. Musch > better to tell the student to follow yo than to push them through the > path. They'll be so busy being embarassed that they won't learn -- or so > mad at you that they won't return. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Priscilla Burrage Vermont US > (Priscilla.Burrage-AT-uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:47:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:47:37 -0500 From: Daniel Pentlarge Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Tom, You raise so many issues! >One wonderfully ascertive, experienced woman grabbed them by the shoulders and ascertively steered them in the right directions. (I use the word 'ascertive' repeatedly with deliberation, though an observer of the incident may have described it as 'aggressive') Not really wishing either to revisit the issue of orthography (which Graham has had occasion to reprove me on this very morning), or to appear acerbic, I still feel the need to assert that even in the case of experienced but inept dancers who cannot discern which dances they're capable of assaying (which is really a lot to expect of someone who has only been dancing for a year), the laying on of hands should be reserved for healing ministries, not steering dancers. Gestures, skillfully wielded, must suffice, although not perhaps to assuage the frustration of obstructed dancers. >I think the two 'dancers' (and I use the term loosely!) actually appreciated it. The gracious or even grateful response of others does not excuse our rudeness, alas. >but don't the 'dancers' have a bit of a responsibility to learn their own limits and avoid ruining the dance for the other people? Bow out when they realize that the steps are just beyond them? It's very difficult to know in advance whether the dance just announced is going to be too difficult, unless the caller describes it as "advanced," or some such. Even walking through may not make that clear to the uninitiated, the inexperienced or the clueless. Once the dance has begun, at what point does one bow out? I don't believe I've ever received instruction on that point. >At what point does one take the dance-inept aside and simply point out the obvious? I completely sympathize with the question, but I think the answer remains "never." Nothing justifies a lack of kindness, and there doesn't seem to me to be a way to do what you suggest kindly. Yours in shared frustration, Daniel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:42:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:42:08 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031113174208.83540.qmail-AT-web41508.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Daniel Pentlarge wrote: > Dear Tom, > You raise so many issues! > >One wonderfully ascertive, experienced woman grabbed > them by the shoulders > and ascertively steered them in the right directions. (I > use the word > 'ascertive' repeatedly with deliberation, though an > observer of the incident > may have described it as 'aggressive') > > Not really wishing either to revisit the issue of > orthography (which > Graham has had occasion to reprove me on this very > morning), or to appear > acerbic, I still feel the need to assert that even in the > case of > experienced but inept dancers who cannot discern which > dances they're > capable of assaying (which is really a lot to expect of > someone who has only > been dancing for a year), the laying on of hands should > be reserved for > healing ministries, not steering dancers. Gestures, > skillfully wielded, > must suffice, although not perhaps to assuage the > frustration of obstructed > dancers. > > >I think the two 'dancers' (and I use the term loosely!) > actually > appreciated > it. > > The gracious or even grateful response of others does > not excuse our > rudeness, alas. > > >but don't the 'dancers' have a bit of a responsibility > to learn > their own limits and avoid ruining the dance for the > other people? Bow out > when they realize that the steps are just beyond them? > > It's very difficult to know in advance whether the > dance just announced > is going to be too difficult, unless the caller describes > it as "advanced," > or some such. Even walking through may not make that > clear to the > uninitiated, the inexperienced or the clueless. Once the > dance has begun, > at what point does one bow out? I don't believe I've > ever received > instruction on that point. > > >At what point does one take the dance-inept aside and > simply point out the > obvious? > > I completely sympathize with the question, but I think > the answer remains > "never." Nothing justifies a lack of kindness, and there > doesn't seem to me > to be a way to do what you suggest kindly. > Yours in shared frustration, > Daniel This brings up another interesting question. I am now 81 years old and having some physical problems which interfere with my ability to do some of the dances. I am familiar with most of the dances and know which ones I can do and which I should stay away from but callers rarely tell us what dance they are going to do until after we are on the floor. I find it most embarassing to have to apologize to my partner and leave the floor after getting up in a set. TO ALL CALLERS-PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT DANCE IS NEXT BEFORE WE GET ON THE FLOOR, RATHER THAN WAITING UNTIL AFTER WE ARE IN PLACE. It would be most helpful both to new dancers and experienced ones with physical problems and polite to both our partners and other fellow dancers. Ben Stein > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:43:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:43:02 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031113174302.74782.qmail-AT-web20603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As much as I dislike to disagree with so dear a friend as Daniel, I think there are no easy answers here. I would have said that my principle was--nay, my principal principle--not to touch (except where the figures indicate, as in hand-turns). But I've broken that rule myself, in the following way. I was teaching a more-or-less beginning level dance, and trying to guide a wholly new dancer through (as I recall) a half-figure-8. She just wasn't seeing it from the demonstration. I asked her if I could put my hands on her to guide her, and I put my hands on her shoulders and we walked together through the half-figure--she giggled, the room giggled. And she grasped it, and had no trouble with the figure for the remainder of the evening. However. I was the leader/teacher/caller--*and* I asked her permission before I touched her. And I had a pretty good sense that she'd say yes, and not be perturbed. I would never want to give the *dancers* (including myself, when I'm not leading) blanket permission to guide others in this way. So, generally, yes--absolutely no touching or pushing. In hindsight, I might have asked *her* to put her hands on *my* shoulders--that might have been more appropriate, and not intrusive. The other questions once again address the issue of the needs of the individual versus those of the community--something callers often talk about amongst themselves. Of course one ought to be welcoming and inclusive--both as a matter of principle and for the health of the community. If an event has been billed clearly as Advanced or Experienced, it's quite unfair to the community to permit one or two beginners (actual or perpetual) to throw over an entire program of dances. This does not excuse rudeness (or even touching), but I don't see why an organizer couldn't say to such a dancer (at the break, say), "I don't know if you are aware that this is a Ball, and these dancers have spent weeks learning these dances...Such-and-So after the break is an easier dance. Maybe you'd like to watch until that comes up, and then join us for that." I don't find this rude, if deftly done: it's a courtesy that may spare a dancer further embarrassment (or the wrath of fellow dancers, if they're not susceptible to embarrassment). ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:14:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:14:12 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002701c3aa11$f17d6a00$da8d4a0c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031113174302.74782.qmail-AT-web20603.mail.yahoo.com> At our local dance we've developed a culture where new folks are, if needed, aided through a complex maneuver by a couple of women (both callers) who act as "pilot fish". They always ask permission, and normally only do this during the walkthroughs, although once in a blue moon they do it during an actual dance. Two things are critical: the asking, and the fact that these are women doing the piloting, which obviates skittishness among new female dancers about being touched. It's worked out well, and no one has ever objected. Indeed, they usually take it as something of a game, part of our attempt to be welcoming to beginners. But the permission is absolutely crucial. On the side topic, Ben's right about announcing dances. "Take partners for _____" is the way we call folks onto the floor. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:07:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:07:37 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vincent Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20031113190737.96799.qmail-AT-web12205.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Those are all really good points, Dan. And thank you for not raking me over the coals for repeatedly misspelling 'assertive'. :) I think I tend to agree with your position, but I did want to point out some additional facts: 1. The man of the couple is a gentle fellow and certainly not above getting 'directed'. 2. The woman of the couple was someone I don't believe I'd ever seen before. 3. The woman who assertively/aggressively 'directed' (or [wo]manhandled) was someone I vaguely remember seeing before, though not at a recent dance (she is...um...top-heavy and dances with quite a bouncy step, resulting in a somewhat memorable visual image). So, it wasn't a well-known woman 'directing' a well-known couple, though for all I know, the 'directing' woman may be close with one or both of the 'directed' couple. If it had been a daughter shoving/dragging/directing her father around, would it be any better? I guess. With less familiarity, I would certainly agree it was a bold move, to say the least. (I must add parenthetically that I take great amusement at your limiting the 'laying of hands' to a useless setting while prohibiting it from one which would most certainly be effective. ;> ) As for bowing out, my thought was that folks would do so during the walk-through rather than once the dance started. Not the easiest thing to do, but humility never is. Take it from me. I tried it once. :) Tom (who would *never* really take someone aside and tell them they are too stupid to do a dance) --- Daniel Pentlarge wrote: > Dear Tom, > You raise so many issues! > >One wonderfully ascertive, experienced woman > grabbed them by the shoulders > and ascertively steered them in the right > directions. (I use the word > 'ascertive' repeatedly with deliberation, though an > observer of the incident > may have described it as 'aggressive') > > Not really wishing either to revisit the issue of > orthography (which > Graham has had occasion to reprove me on this very > morning), or to appear > acerbic, I still feel the need to assert that even > in the case of > experienced but inept dancers who cannot discern > which dances they're > capable of assaying (which is really a lot to expect > of someone who has only > been dancing for a year), the laying on of hands > should be reserved for > healing ministries, not steering dancers. Gestures, > skillfully wielded, > must suffice, although not perhaps to assuage the > frustration of obstructed > dancers. > > >I think the two 'dancers' (and I use the term > loosely!) actually > appreciated > it. > > The gracious or even grateful response of others > does not excuse our > rudeness, alas. > > >but don't the 'dancers' have a bit of a > responsibility to learn > their own limits and avoid ruining the dance for the > other people? Bow out > when they realize that the steps are just beyond > them? > > It's very difficult to know in advance whether > the dance just announced > is going to be too difficult, unless the caller > describes it as "advanced," > or some such. Even walking through may not make > that clear to the > uninitiated, the inexperienced or the clueless. > Once the dance has begun, > at what point does one bow out? I don't believe > I've ever received > instruction on that point. > > >At what point does one take the dance-inept aside > and simply point out the > obvious? > > I completely sympathize with the question, but I > think the answer remains > "never." Nothing justifies a lack of kindness, and > there doesn't seem to me > to be a way to do what you suggest kindly. > Yours in shared frustration, > Daniel > ===== Tom Vincent I looked up the definition of 'liberal' in a Random House dictionary. It gave the synonyms for 'liberal' as 'progressive', 'broad-minded', 'unprejudiced', 'beneficent'. The antonyms it offered: 'reactionary' and 'intolerant'. -- Walter Cronkite www.deanforamerica.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:05:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:05:26 -0500 From: Daniel Pentlarge Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: O ye of little faith To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Tom, I am grateful that this discussion is going as it is; I hoped it would. I can't help responding to a couple of points (no effective self-control with a keyboard, apparently.) >The woman who assertively/aggressively 'directed' (or [wo]manhandled) was someone I vaguely remember seeing before, though not at a recent dance (she is...um...top-heavy and dances with quite a bouncy step, resulting in a somewhat memorable visual image). I sure hope she's not on this list; between the actions and the physique described she'd be hard pressed not to recognize herself. >(I must add parenthetically that I take great amusement at your limiting the 'laying of hands' to a useless setting while prohibiting it from one which would most certainly be effective. ;> ) Several people have complained rather bitterly to me that the laying on of hands in a dance setting - particularly when it happened unexpectedly and/or without their explicit permission - had actually caused them to freeze up, and had actually reduced their ability in that moment to grasp what was or ought to be going on. (I can't actually testify of my own experience of its efficacy in "healing ministry.") >Tom (who would *never* really take someone aside and tell them they are too stupid to do a dance) Unlike the Baptists, or at least former President Carter, I do not hold that adultery in one's heart is as bad as the actuality (or as good, if it comes to that), so I would never fault you for *wanting* to tell them. Sometimes I want to smack them, but I try to keep my hands to myself. Yours in faith and hope, Daniel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:52:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:51:40 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031113205140.76088.qmail-AT-web20007.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Benjamin Stein wrote: > This brings up another interesting question. I am now 81 > years old and having some physical problems which interfere > with my ability to do some of the dances. I am familiar > with most of the dances and know which ones I can do and > which I should stay away from but callers rarely tell us > what dance they are going to do until after we are on the > floor. I find it most embarassing to have to apologize to > my partner and leave the floor after getting up in a set. > TO ALL CALLERS-PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT DANCE IS NEXT BEFORE > WE GET ON THE FLOOR, RATHER THAN WAITING UNTIL AFTER WE ARE > IN PLACE. It would be most helpful both to new dancers and > experienced ones with physical problems and polite to both > our partners and other fellow dancers. It also helps to announce it more than once, because some of us have trouble seperating words from the ambient noise and might not hear it the first time. Maybe it would even be good to announce, "After this, the next dance will be...," during a moment of relative quiet anticipation before starting the preceeding dance. Or write the next dance _clearly_ on an easel ahead of time (preferably with a non-toxic pen). Andy in Portland __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:34:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:10:43 -0500 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031113.163303.-78191.20.AllisonThompson-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As another observation, I've found when teaching children, especially really little ones, that a degree of physical contact is necessary. I just taught some longsword to 5th graders and in each set there's at least one child who doesn't know R from L. Turning "out" and "in" is also rather confusing to them; it's not an obvious directional command to a child who, while linked to others in a circle, still thinks only of itself as a dancer. I find that a little gentle tugging, or holding a hand or sword works well until they've developed a kinesthetic memory. But then I'm a Mom, and presented to the group as such. I agree with the other observations about the touching of adults, or those pretending to be same. BTW, the longsword was great fun & the kids loved it. The concept of teamwork is foreign to them, but 5th grade (10-11 yrs old for you Brits) is a good age to start to get it. When they finally made the lock we all started screaming with joy. Wicked cool. Allison Thompson On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:14:12 -0600 Paul Stamler writes: > At our local dance we've developed a culture where new folks are, if > needed, > aided through a complex maneuver by a couple of women (both callers) > who act > as "pilot fish". They always ask permission, and normally only do > this > during the walkthroughs, although once in a blue moon they do it > during an > actual dance. Two things are critical: the asking, and the fact that > these > are women doing the piloting, which obviates skittishness among new > female > dancers about being touched. It's worked out well, and no one has > ever > objected. Indeed, they usually take it as something of a game, part > of our > attempt to be welcoming to beginners. But the permission is > absolutely > crucial. > > On the side topic, Ben's right about announcing dances. "Take > partners for > _____" is the way we call folks onto the floor. > > Peace, > Paul > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:55:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:55:44 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vincent Subject: Re: O ye of little faith To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20031113215544.54202.qmail-AT-web12207.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Daniel Pentlarge wrote: > Dear Tom, > I am grateful that this discussion is going as it > is; I hoped it would. > I can't help responding to a couple of points (no > effective self-control > with a keyboard, apparently.) Likewise! Kindred Spirits, no doubt. ;> > >The woman who assertively/aggressively 'directed' > (or [wo]manhandled) was someone I vaguely remember > seeing before, though not at a recent dance (she > is...um...top-heavy and dances with quite a bouncy > step, resulting in a somewhat memorable visual > image). > > I sure hope she's not on this list; between the > actions and the physique > described she'd be hard pressed not to recognize > herself. Ah, but I don't think she knows me or is on the list and I never said when or where the dance was. I only mentioned the description to give some additional context to the situation, not to assist in identifying her...though I really don't see anything wrong with doing that, mind you: I think people have a right to defend themselves from shadowy descriptions -- which can tar the innocent -- of public events. I make no claims that my description of the events I saw are either complete nor unbiased. I'll *at least* do that! > >(I must add parenthetically that I take great > amusement at your limiting the 'laying of hands' to > a > useless setting while prohibiting it from one which > would most certainly be effective. ;> ) > > Several people have complained rather bitterly to me > that the laying on of > hands in a dance setting - particularly when it > happened unexpectedly and/or > without their explicit permission - had actually > caused them to freeze up, > and had actually reduced their ability in that > moment to grasp what was or > ought to be going on. (I can't actually testify of > my own experience of its > efficacy in "healing ministry.") I don't see how *gently* guiding a dance-bison could be taken offensively. They've just *got* to be aware of how lost they are and what they're doing to the flow of the dance! *All* of us gents are somewhat constantly gently guiding the ladies, though almost certainly with both their consent and expectation ('particularly when it happened unexpectedly and/or without their explicit permission': If they freeze at being touched under any other conditions, I think they're in the wrong hobby!). (I'm taking cruel pleasure in the amusing image of a aphenphosmphobe getting involved in ECD!) > > >Tom > (who would *never* really take someone aside and > tell > them they are too stupid to do a dance) > > Unlike the Baptists, or at least former President > Carter, I do not hold that > adultery in one's heart is as bad as the actuality > (or as good, if it comes > to that), so I would never fault you for *wanting* > to tell them. Sometimes > I want to smack them, but I try to keep my hands to > myself. It certainly not as satisfying. ;> (and yes, I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which previous sentence that was a comment on) Tom (who really is opposed to executing people who mess up a hey) ===== Tom Vincent I looked up the definition of 'liberal' in a Random House dictionary. It gave the synonyms for 'liberal' as 'progressive', 'broad-minded', 'unprejudiced', 'beneficent'. The antonyms it offered: 'reactionary' and 'intolerant'. -- Walter Cronkite www.deanforamerica.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:58:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:58:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Roger W. Broseus" Subject: New Book: The Richmond Assemblies, 1790-1797: Social Dances from 18th-Century Virginia To: ECD Mailing List Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bob Keller asked that I forward this info. Cheer, -- Roger W. Broseus +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ I [Bob] want you to know about the latest publication by Kate Van Winkle Keller and George Fogg. "The Richmond Assemblies, 1790-1797: Social Dances from 18th-Century Virginia". The Richmond Assemblies were founded soon after the seat of Virginia's government moved from Williamsburg to Richmond in 1780. The Rules for the Richmond Assemblies for 1790 were published before the season. More rules were added in 1797 and the scribe of these rules folded into them two more pieces of paper with fourteen dances written on them. In this book the Assembly rules are discussed and the 1797 dances have been reconstructed for today's dancers to enjoy. The music comes from two colonial American sources: the manuscript collection of minuets made by John Ormsby, a dancing master active in Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland in the 1750s, and a group of printed English minuet collections from about the same time that belonged to Thomas Jefferson. The book is available from The Colonial Music Institute, at http://www.colonialmusic.org/RA-bk.htm. Publication data: The Richmond Assemblies, 1790-1797 by Kate Van Winkle Keller & George A. Fogg Annapolis, Maryland. The Colonial Music Institute, 2003 24 pages *RA-bk: $6.00 Table of Contents: Corelli's Minuet, Countess of Eglington's Minuet, The Dutchess of Ancaster's Minuet, The Dutchess of Richmond's Minuet, Lord Cathcart's Minuet, A Minuet, A Minuet by Captain Read, A Minuet by S. Philpot, A Minuet by Reverd. Mr. Bacon, Miss Webster's Minuet, and Mrs. Hedges, Her Minuet. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:00:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:00:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT help ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:22:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:22:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: oops To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Susan R. Lorand wrote: > help sorry, folks, i was trying to sort out a problem with my subscription, and sent my request for a help file to the wrong address. but at least now i know i can post again! - susie lorand ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:36:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Benjamin Stein wrote: > This brings up another interesting question. I am now 81 > years old and having some physical problems which interfere > with my ability to do some of the dances. I am familiar > with most of the dances and know which ones I can do and > which I should stay away from but callers rarely tell us > what dance they are going to do until after we are on the > floor. I find it most embarassing to have to apologize to > my partner and leave the floor after getting up in a set. > TO ALL CALLERS-PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT DANCE IS NEXT BEFORE > WE GET ON THE FLOOR, RATHER THAN WAITING UNTIL AFTER WE ARE > IN PLACE. It would be most helpful both to new dancers and > experienced ones with physical problems and polite to both > our partners and other fellow dancers. a number of dancers in my communities in the NJ/phila area (myself included) have had temporary or ongoing physical impediments to doing dances with certain figures (e.g. slipping circles or lots of setting) or energy requirements. i've had a lot of success with approaching callers ahead of time (usually before the beginning of the evening) to ask for clues about which dances i would be able to handle & which i would want to sit out. sometimes a caller will make a general announcement that the next dance will be hard for people with knee problems; sometimes i'll go up to the stage in between dances to ask what the next one is. in the places where i dance most often, the callers might *like* to announce the name of a dance before people line up for it - we dancers just don't give them a chance! (but that's another thread...) susie lorand princeton, nj, usa ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:50:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:50:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: favorite waltzes in Barnes ECD book (was re: Farewell Marian) To: ECD mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT i'm responding belatedly to a thread about waltzes in the barnes ECD book... On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Jon Berger wrote: > So here's the question: is there anyone else who plays tunes from Barnes > for waltzes, I do, when I haven't planned anything else. > and what are your favorite tunes for this purpose? Besides Farewell Marian (insert alternate name/spelling here), the first ones that come to mind are, in no particular order, Nan's Waltz Golden Anniversary Waltz (tune is called Christine & Ed's) Margaret's Waltz Duke of Kent's Waltz Bare Necessities Draper's Gardens (the Margravine's Waltz) Heidenroeslein (no flames, please) Wood Duck - Susie Lorand Princeton, NJ, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:28:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:27:55 -0500 From: "Gordon, Judy" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Preannouncing Dances To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ZPXwjVZxvMjYTFkwJOvxSg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ZPXwjVZxvMjYTFkwJOvxSg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi. Generally at the New York ECD, we teachers try to prepare our program in advance, so that we can both provide copies to the musicians so they are prepared for what's coming next, and post copies at several spots along the walls so that dancers can check on what's coming next. Sometimes, the preselected dances are subject to change due to time constraints, or a special request, but we usually end up doing what we have planned. Of course, this won't help if someone looking at the list isn't familiar with the dances by name, but they can always ask. Last time I was up at the mike I announced that the next dance was a traditional dance, and that it did not have any ranting, but was fairly energetic. About a third of the room sat down. Yonina Gordon Judy Judy Gordon Managing Editor Securities Information Standard & Poor's 55 Water Street, 34th Floor Tel: (212) 438-7498 Fax: (212) 438-7537 judy_gordon-AT-standardandpoors.com -------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is intended only for the recipient, and may be a confidential attorney-client communication or may otherwise be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, please be aware that any dissemination or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you, Standard & Poor's -------------------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_ZPXwjVZxvMjYTFkwJOvxSg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Preannouncing Dances

Hi. Generally at the New York ECD, we teachers try to prepare our program in advance, so that we can both provide copies to the musicians so they are prepared for what's coming next, and post copies at several spots along the walls so that dancers can check on what's coming next. Sometimes, the preselected dances are subject to change due to time constraints, or a special request, but we usually end up doing what we have planned. Of course, this won't help if someone looking at the list isn't familiar with the dances by name, but they can always ask.

Last time I was up at the mike I announced that the next dance was a traditional dance, and that it did not have any ranting, but was fairly energetic. About a third of the room sat down.

Yonina Gordon




Judy
Judy Gordon
Managing Editor
Securities Information
Standard & Poor's
55 Water Street, 34th Floor
Tel: (212) 438-7498
Fax: (212) 438-7537
judy_gordon-AT-standardandpoors.com

The information contained in this message is intended only for the recipient, and may be a confidential attorney-client communication or may otherwise be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, please be aware that any dissemination or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
Thank you,
Standard & Poor's
--Boundary_(ID_ZPXwjVZxvMjYTFkwJOvxSg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:15:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:30:59 -0500 From: Mary Stafford Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Ben's Letter To: 'English Country Dance List' Message-ID: <01C3AAA0.77CB3040-AT-ppp0a113.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I must add a loud "amen" to Ben's request that callers identify a dance before we are all lined up. I am 70, but have some real restrictions because of illness, and it's always embarrassing to have to say I must drop out to someone when after we're all lined up, I find it's a rant or something else I cannot manage. As to civility, I think our weekly English dance here in Arlington, MA, has made great strides in working well with new dancers to help them feel comfortable, and that we (mostly) rely on word and gesture to get them through stuff, and do not take errors as huge social gaffes. We may need to work on either word of mouth or wording in flyers to let beginners know that special dances are more difficult, especially our Ball. Mary Stafford ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:40:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:35:22 -0400 From: John Wood Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Royal Albert -- Help please To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000a01c3aade$10fbb9a0$8492e018-AT-johnwood> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_yDTFtWXUb7zI+o8jqWzB5w)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_yDTFtWXUb7zI+o8jqWzB5w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ECD Dancers: Could someone enlighten me as to executing the D part of "Royal Albert" [Community Manual #7]. It is such a long time ago that I last danced it that I cannot remember if it is a 3/4 Hey or a dance round as in "Danish Double Quadrille"? Thanks in advance. Regards, John Bedford, Nova Scotia --Boundary_(ID_yDTFtWXUb7zI+o8jqWzB5w) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
ECD Dancers:
 
Could someone enlighten me as to executing the D part
of "Royal Albert" [Community Manual #7].
 
It is such a long time ago that I last danced it that I cannot remember if it is a 3/4 Hey or a dance round as in "Danish
Double Quadrille"?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Regards, John
Bedford, Nova Scotia
--Boundary_(ID_yDTFtWXUb7zI+o8jqWzB5w)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:57:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:56:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Royal Albert -- Help please To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200311142056.hAEKurOo023516-AT-mail.tgis.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The final part of the Royal Albert is "dance round the other couple 3/4 to change places". The dance step is a pas-de-bas (flattened polka). Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:02:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:02:22 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ben's Letter To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031114210222.3041.qmail-AT-web41507.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Mary Stafford wrote: > I must add a loud "amen" to Ben's request that callers > identify a dance before we are all lined up. I am 70, > but have some real restrictions because of illness, and > it's always embarrassing to have to say I must drop out > to someone when after we're all lined up, I find it's a > rant or something else I cannot manage. > > As to civility, I think our weekly English dance here in > Arlington, MA, has made great strides in working well > with new dancers to help them feel comfortable, and that > we (mostly) rely on word and gesture to get them through > stuff, and do not take errors as huge social gaffes. We > may need to work on either word of mouth or wording in > flyers to let beginners know that special dances are more > difficult, especially our Ball. > > Mary Stafford Thanks to Mary. Ben Stein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:53:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:14:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Colin Hume Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Looking for bookings To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: <20031117131450.369782-AT-colin-hume> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Next year I'm going to be in the States from Monday June 7th until Saturday July 10th when I'm calling at Buffalo Gap English-American Week. I would welcome some more bookings, either English or Contras and Squares. I'm willing to go anywhere provided somebody provides accommodation, food and enough money to cover my fare. Colin Hume Email colin-AT-colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:54:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:45:32 -0800 From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Constantly Gently Guiding To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FB6825C.9692AC0E-AT-opendoor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031113215544.54202.qmail-AT-web12207.mail.yahoo.com> Indeed?! How tiresome for both sexes. I much prefer a more mutual dance experience and for any guidance (which, yes, should always be gentle) to be occasional rather than constant and to come from/be given to as needed in the moment not based on one's sex or role. Brooke Ashland Oregon USA Tom Vincent wrote: > *All* of us gents are somewhat > constantly gently guiding the ladies, though almost > certainly with both their consent and expectation > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:54:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:36:38 -0500 (EST) From: FHdancenet-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: no subject To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <11e.2783757a.2ce7be26-AT-aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_nNomVahhgOCB6tN5KaL4tQ)" --Boundary_(ID_nNomVahhgOCB6tN5KaL4tQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Do not understand how this mail list works. I like ECD. This is test. --Boundary_(ID_nNomVahhgOCB6tN5KaL4tQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Do not understand how this mail list works. I like ECD. This is test. --Boundary_(ID_nNomVahhgOCB6tN5KaL4tQ)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:54:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:22:49 -0400 From: John Wood Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: TESTING TESTING To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: John Wood Message-ID: <002a01c3ac3c$5a099ae0$8492e018-AT-johnwood> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_dMhokiXn/vcP1PbDy86wEg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_dMhokiXn/vcP1PbDy86wEg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT No messages for 3 days -- testing testing --Boundary_(ID_dMhokiXn/vcP1PbDy86wEg) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
No messages for 3 days -- testing testing
--Boundary_(ID_dMhokiXn/vcP1PbDy86wEg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:54:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:56:03 -0700 From: Vickie Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Harvest Ball photos To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For those who enjoy photos of folks enjoying themselves, there are several pages of photos of last night's Harvest Ball in Riverside, CA at: http://englishcountrydancing.org/harvest1.html But a couple of explanatory notes are probably in order. There are several photos that look like a fellow proposing to his sweetie - he was. The fellow passing out blue folders is the President of the local Sons of the American Revolution, giving SAR certificates of appreciation to our dance mistress and band members for keeping 18th century music and dance alive and well. We didn't tell him we do everything ECD from the 16th to the 21st centuries. Speaking of the band (The Ladyslippers) - you'll note they've grown to five members. They've added (among other things) a harpsichord, albeit an electronic one, which gives a new dimension to the music. Best regards, Ed ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:55:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:34:02 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Chestnut/All Saint's Day Barnes/Legacy discrepancy To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L3495BLHWO98MHIT-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- I'm working on my program for Wednesday and thought I'd look through the excellent _Legacy_ to see if anything struck my fancy. I played through the first tune given in the book ("Chestnut" for "All Saint's Day"), and it sounded funny to me -- more funny than justified by how rusty I am on the recorder - and I checked it against Barnes. The discrepancy is in bar 4 of the B music. For that dotted quarter, eight, half note sequence, Legacy has D C C and Barnes has D F C, which is what I'm used to hearing. I tried googling up a scanned Playford page, but I couldn't read the dots well enough to see what the original publication said. Have I found an error, an interpretation difference, or what? Someone with easy access to a legible Playford might be able to shed more light on this. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:55:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:37:22 +0000 (GMT) From: dcculb-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fresh replies to fresh examples To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031116.003723.11279.827696-AT-webmail02.lax.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:42:08 -0800 (PST) Benjamin Stein writes: > > > This brings up another interesting question. I am now 81 > years old and having some physical problems which interfere > with my ability to do some of the dances. I am familiar > with most of the dances and know which ones I can do and > which I should stay away from but callers rarely tell us > what dance they are going to do until after we are on the > floor. I find it most embarassing to have to apologize to > my partner and leave the floor after getting up in a set. > TO ALL CALLERS-PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT DANCE IS NEXT BEFORE > WE GET ON THE FLOOR, RATHER THAN WAITING UNTIL AFTER WE ARE > IN PLACE. It would be most helpful both to new dancers and > experienced ones with physical problems and polite to both > our partners and other fellow dancers. > Ben Stein I agree absolutely, and to that end have always preannounced dances since I started calling (around 1996). Dawn Culbertson Baltimore, MD ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:55:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:45:45 -0500 From: Stephanie Smith Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Special Colin Hume Workshop and Evening Dance Nov. 29, Glen Echo, MD To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FB987D9.6040202-AT-verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If any of you happen to be visiting the Washington DC area over the Thanksgiving holiday, you might want to know about this special Colin Hume Afternoon Workshop and Evening Dance on Saturday the 29th. Please join us! Stephanie (contact info below) Folklore Society of Greater Washington (DC) Special Event English dance workshop and evening dance with English caller and choreographer Colin Hume Saturday November 29, Glen Echo Town Hall Afternoon English dance workshop 2-5 pm Evening Dance 8-11 pm Colin Hume is one of England's foremost callers and choreographers of both American and English Dance, including Playford dances from the 17th c., and his own "Dances with a Difference", many of which contain unusual combinations of figures to baffle and/or delight the dancers. In addition Colin is a fine composer and interpreter of dances. He has called at Folk Dance courses in Holland and Denmark, and for Dance Weeks in the US at Pinewoods, Mendocino, Brasstown, and Buffalo Gap. We are fortunate that a short trip to the East Coast allows him to share dances - the classic Playford dances, his own, and those of other contemporary choreographers - with us in an afternoon workshop and evening dance on Saturday, November 29th. Colleen Reed (flute) and Liz Donaldson (piano) will provide the music for the afternoon, and will be joined by Elke Baker (fiddle) for the evening dance. The workshop and evening dance will take place at the Glen Echo Town Hall, 6106 Harvard Avenue, Glen Echo, MD. Afternoon workshop $12/$10 (FSGW, BFMS, CDSS members); Evening dance $15/$12; Both events $24/$20. Information from Stephanie Smith, (301) 229-3577, dancesmith-AT-verizon.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:55:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:14:14 -0600 From: Mark R Dobyns Jones Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.2.2.20031117141837.02a4fc20-AT-shell.shore.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have been meaning for some time to post this item to the English Country Dance List, since there is among some of the many and varied United States English dance communities, a misunderstanding about the status of copyright of social dances (as well as for new interpretations of old social dances): a number of composers and interpreters wrongly believe that social dances are under copyright in the United States. There is a parallel conversation on this topic that seems to regularly recur on the The Traditional Callers Email List, , where the general tone is one of saving dances from being lost to history, and a concomitant worry that it is permissable to disseminate a copy of a particular the dance sequence. The short answer to the question is, in the USA, YES, it is permissable. The demands of courtesy to a living author are an entirely separate social, cultural and communities question, which I specifically do not address here or below. *** The amazing fact to take notice of, is that United States law does not recognize an intellectual property right (copy right) in what is termed SOCIAL DANCE STEPS, which amounts to, with some small legitimate room for dispute, social dance choreography. This is despite the fact that PERFORMANCE CHOREOGRAPHY, after nearly two centuries of copyright nullity and oblivion in the USA was recognized as expressly copyrightable under US Federal Law, only as recently as of January 1, 1978. *** Note that the copyright laws are different for each country on this topic, and Canadian, United Kingdom and European copyright laws probably permit significantly greater property rights to vest with the social dance composer than in the United States--which is part of the cause of the incorrect belief that in the USA the composer has similar control over the use and dissemination of his or her dances or interpretations of dances, since our various communities are often international. Once a dance escapes into the United States, those different rights applicable within other countries are not applicable within the USA. Despite what an author or publisher of a book or other publication published in the United States may assert or claim on the copyright page of a book or publication, "social dance steps" are not recognized at law as qualifying as copyrightable material. Other text in such a book is copyrightable, such as explanatory material, opinions, criticism and other artistic and intellectual contributions (for example: singing calls, which encompass a melody and song, and as musical composition are an artistic performance work and copyrightable, but not the underlying ideas that move people around on a social dance), and so forth. Typically USA dance authors and publishers are completely unaware of the status of social dance and put the standard, global and all-encompassing boilerplate assertion of copyright for everything in a publication...or as I have on occasion heard directly from the composer/dancing master introducing his or her creation at a social dance event. (I have to speculate that even if an author or publisher is aware of the public domain status of social dances in the US, it is a complicated bother to state on the copyright page that understanding, so you will never see such a properly stated advisory or assertion of rights on the copyright page.) Further below, are slightly fuller details describing the situation, which is a slightly edited re-posting I sent on September 19, 2003 to the email list . A very useful web link about the topic of US copyright and choreography (especially performance choreography as a very distinct and separate category of work from social choreography) is: "Copyright of Choreographic Works" by Julie Van Camp, a chapter in the book: "1994-95 Entertainment, Publishing and the Arts Handbook" edited by Stephen F. Breimer, Robert Thorne, and John David Viera New York: Clark, Boardman, and Callaghan, 1994 (pp. 59-92) http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/copyrigh.html ~Mark Jones Boston Massachusetts USA - - - - - The briefest summary - - - - - - - There is a surprising and fundamental fact that is of interest to social dance callers and composers and book publishers and editors, and ease the anxiety of those concerned on this list about exchanging, publicizing and posting dance transcriptions--and only dance transcriptions--(in the **USA**: other countries have different copyright laws). Apparently the ideas encompassed in a social dance that describe how people move around in a particular way ("social dance steps") not only not recognized as copyrightable property under current federal copyright law, but specifically excluded (Title 17 of the United States Code). "Social dance steps" amount to social dance as we know it. It might be reasonable to argue that the author's idiosyncratic and peculiar expression of describing a dance have a claim to copyright, but not the ideas that consist of the underlying "social dance steps" that they describe. An example might be a --singing square-- which strictly as a musical song and musical composition is a copywritable thing, but the underlying ideas that get people to move around in a formation during a singing square are not copywritable. Relatedly, in the US an author is not able to (enforcably) assert, or claim rights beyond those recognized by copyright law, in a copyright statement like "all rights are reserved". When a copyright in "social dance steps" does not exist, there's no legal standing to enforce or prevent use of such ideas by others, with or without author's permission. (There are some limited author rights related to state-level common-law and unpublished works, which will ultimately be extinguished by more recent amendments to US copyright law.) In any case, dance books usually contain much legitimate copyrighted material of a non-"social-dance-step" nature, which it is best not to infringe upon or copy, and for which copyright may be properly asserted. Just in case you might consider the comparison of copyright of social dance sequences to musical or recording copyrights as analagous, this would also be incorrect, since a copyright for "social dance steps" is a nullity. When no right exists for an author to reserve or give away, there is no "fair use" -- all may use such ideas, for social dance. Musical ideas, which are specifically and statutorily recognized and protected by copyright, have a privileged status compared to the status of "social dance steps". Similarly, there cannot be a forced licensing and fee process (as is statutorily defined for recordings in the US) for ideas that are excluded from copyright status, as are "social dance steps". How can this astonishing situation be possible? It can be found in the statute, and in the legislative intent and history that the congressional committee reported for the amendments to the copyright law of 1976. This legislative history is what is cited by articles in law journals in relation to social dance's non-copyright status. The Congressional committee drafting the law excluded from copyright coverage "social dance steps" at the moment that "choreographic works" were first included as an explicitly protected category of work. Choreographic works previously achieved copyright status only when they were an integral part of a "dramatic work," hence rarely. Prior to that, performance choreography recieved no copyright protection within the US. It is true that the term "social dance steps" is a vague one, that its meaning can be reasonably disputed, and further, has been left to us without further undefinition by both Congress and the federal courts, though a standard historical and typical legal usage can be discovered. - - - - US Federal Statute Extract - - - - - - - The sources: a particular section and subsection of the US copyright statute describes the subject matter of copyright. The "choreographic works" clause went into effect 1/1/78; but note the following legislative report. TITLE 17 - COPYRIGHTS CHAPTER 1 - SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT Sec. 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general (a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories: (1) literary works; (2) musical works, including any accompanying words; (3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music; (4) pantomimes and choreographic works; (5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works; (6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works; (7) sound recordings; and (8) architectural works. b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work. - - US Federal Legislative History, Committee Report Extract - - - Here's an excerpt from the legislative history, specifically excluding "social dance steps" from coverage within the term "choreographic works": HISTORICAL AND REVISION NOTES House Commission on the Judiciary HOUSE REPORT NO. 94-1476 94th Congress, 2nd Session (1976) ... Of the seven items listed, four are defined in section 101. The three undefined categories - ''musical works,'' ''dramatic works,'' and ''pantomimes and choreographic works'' - have fairly settled meanings. There is no need, for example, to specify the copyrightability of electronic or concrete music in the statute since the form of a work would no longer be of any importance, nor is it necessary to specify that ''choreographic works'' do not include social dance steps and simple routines. ... - - - - - end - - - - - - ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:21:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:21:22 -0800 From: Beth Zekley Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Chestnut/All Saint's Day Barnes/Legacy discrepancy To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L3495BLHWO98MHIT-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Alan, Even though we have this excellent historical source - Playford - the music he included in his books is by no means the one and only "correct" version. English Country Dance and music is - thank goodness! - a living tradition, and through the folk process tunes have a way of being played differently in different regions, or different eras. Peter Barnes has done wonderful work compiling the resource book for English music, and as dancers we have become accustomed to hearing versions of the tunes as Barnes notated them. It's nice to have a surprise once and a while - to hear a different version of the melody or chords - though being human we tend to prefer the familiar. In regards to the question, is it an "error" or interpretation difference, I suppose only the author could tell us. So how about deciding which one YOU like better? Regards, and thank you for all the wonderful work you do in the realm of ECD, Beth Zekley >ECDers -- > >I'm working on my program for Wednesday and thought I'd look through the >excellent _Legacy_ to see if anything struck my fancy. I played through the >first tune given in the book ("Chestnut" for "All Saint's Day"), and >it sounded >funny to me -- more funny than justified by how rusty I am on the recorder - >and I checked it against Barnes. > >The discrepancy is in bar 4 of the B music. For that dotted quarter, >eight, half note sequence, Legacy has D C C and Barnes has D F C, which is >what I'm used to hearing. > >I tried googling up a scanned Playford page, but I couldn't read the dots >well enough to see what the original publication said. Have I found an error, >an interpretation difference, or what? > >Someone with easy access to a legible Playford might be able to shed >more light >on this. > >-- Alan Musically yours, Beth Zekley *** LARK CAMP *** PO Box 1176 Mendocino, California 95460 USA Lark Camp Phone (707) 964-4826 Lark Camp Fax (707) 964-8659 email beth-AT-larkcamp.com Lark Camp Website http://www.larkcamp.com Mickie & Elizabeth Website http://www.larkcamp.com/me Lark Camp BBS http://bbs.mcn.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?category=3 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:15:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:04:40 -0400 From: John Wood Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Royal Albert Query To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <00b901c3ae06$d1ccc2c0$8492e018-AT-johnwood> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Os3Tmp3PUCTJCKcmbP7ykg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Os3Tmp3PUCTJCKcmbP7ykg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ECD Dancers: Could someone enlighten me as to executing the D part of "Royal Albert" [Community Manual #7]. It is such a long time ago that I last danced it that I cannot remember if it is a 3/4 Hey or a dance round as in "Danish Double Quadrille"? Thanks in advance. Regards, John Bedford, Nova Scotia --Boundary_(ID_Os3Tmp3PUCTJCKcmbP7ykg) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
ECD Dancers:
 
Could someone enlighten me as to executing the D part
of "Royal Albert" [Community Manual #7].
 
It is such a long time ago that I last danced it that I cannot remember if it is a 3/4 Hey or a dance round as in "Danish
Double Quadrille"?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Regards, John
Bedford, Nova Scotia
--Boundary_(ID_Os3Tmp3PUCTJCKcmbP7ykg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:20:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:17:56 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <006d01c3ae08$acc88660$379d4a0c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <4.2.2.20031117141837.02a4fc20-AT-shell.shore.net> Hi folks: All that being the case...if a sequence of social dance steps is not copyrightable, is a verbal description of that sequence copyrightable? In other words, if I had composed: A1 Circle to the left, back to the right A2 Left hand star, right hands back would it be a violation of copyright to reprint that, but not a violation to print: A1 All join hands and go left, then the other way back A2 Left hands across, then the other way back ?? It would seem, to this lay person, that I would have an intellectual-property right to the exact phrase-sequence in the first cited instance, although not to the underlying ideas. Rather as though, if Shakespeare was now alive and writing, he might have written: "What light from yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun" which would be covered by copyright, although if I should then write: "Hey! Lookit the light in the window And check out the babe on the balcony!" he couldn't sue me. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:25:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:22:36 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Question for the list To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <007301c3ae09$53b7d0c0$379d4a0c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks: We're working on setting up our annual winter ball, and were wondering: 1) What does your local group charge for a ball? 2) What's included in the fee besides the dancing (e.g., workshops, afternoon practice session, food, next-morning brunch) 3) How much do your musicians get paid? Feel free to reply off-list, and let me know if you'd rather the group remained anonymous (that is, I'd list something like "Group D: $20, afternoon walk-through, snacks, $100 per musician") Thanks in advance! Peace, Paul "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:52:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:50:53 -0500 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Chestnut/All Saint's Day Barnes/Legacy discrepancy To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031118.145054.-379963.6.AllisonThompson-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well, I'm the editor of Legacy, though not the music typesetter. I agree with Alan that the mystery measure is "wrong" as per Barnes' version that we are all most familiar with. I also agree with Beth about the, um, temporal, historic, regional, or personal migration of notes, accidentals, and spots or dots. That "F" note in Barnes could be regarded as a sort of passing tone or ornament, I suppose, tho' I think as written in Legacy, the lack of it is really a boo-boo, although sometimes I do play that measure /half note D half note C/ (Did all that come out clearly? Write the F eighth-note into your Legacy version if you like it better.) I saw this issue a lot when editing the Carolan tunes--as Ellen Tepper will aver, so many of his tunes, set on a fixed modal instrument, were later played by fiddlers & harpers who, in accordance with then current musical taste, found modes rather barbaric & distasteful, and had no hesitation adding in leading tones & other things that wouldn't have fit in Carolan's tuning. I found that I played them so much either way that my ear finally became used to both & I could no longer choose one as superior to the other. On the other hand, I don't know whether this exhibits superior musical sensibilities or a mind turned to mush. Allison Thompson On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:34:02 -0800 (PST) Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes: > ECDers -- > > I'm working on my program for Wednesday and thought I'd look through > the > excellent _Legacy_ to see if anything struck my fancy. I played > through the > first tune given in the book ("Chestnut" for "All Saint's Day"), and > it sounded > funny to me -- more funny than justified by how rusty I am on the > recorder - > and I checked it against Barnes. > > The discrepancy is in bar 4 of the B music. For that dotted > quarter, > eight, half note sequence, Legacy has D C C and Barnes has D F C, > which is > what I'm used to hearing. > > I tried googling up a scanned Playford page, but I couldn't read the > dots > well enough to see what the original publication said. Have I found > an error, > an interpretation difference, or what? > > Someone with easy access to a legible Playford might be able to shed > more light > on this. > > -- Alan > > > -- > ========================================================================= ====== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 > Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park > CA 94025 > ========================================================================= ====== > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:14:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:15:16 -0800 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Question for the list To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031118120707.0252adb0-AT-popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul, other factors you might want to include in your survey are hall rent, caller/MC pay, and number of paying dancers expected. Some groups charge big bucks [$30-$35/dancer] and pay their MC & musicians comparatively little; however, often these groups are paying exorbitant hall fees in the $1500-$3000 range. Good luck with the survey, and please do share the results with the list! Much love, Sharon Green At 01:22 PM 11/18/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Hi folks: > >We're working on setting up our annual winter ball, and were wondering: > >1) What does your local group charge for a ball? > >2) What's included in the fee besides the dancing (e.g., workshops, >afternoon practice session, food, next-morning brunch) > >3) How much do your musicians get paid? > >Feel free to reply off-list, and let me know if you'd rather the group >remained anonymous (that is, I'd list something like "Group D: $20, >afternoon walk-through, snacks, $100 per musician") > >Thanks in advance! > >Peace, >Paul > >"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change >the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:22:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:20:56 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Chestnut/All Saint's Day Barnes/Legacy discrepancy To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ... The discrepancy is in bar 4 of the B music. For that dotted quarter, eight, half note sequence, Legacy has D C C and Barnes has D F C, which is what I'm used to hearing. ======================================================================= Alan, The Illustrated Compendium on-line at UNH shows a pretty clear reading of G FF-. Of course the original is in the key of Dm so if you transpose it to Am as in the Barnes collection, it would be as you have from Legacy - D CC. Interestingly, my recollection from which I scripted my cheat sheet for musicians has a third variant which in your key would be D E C. In all 3 cases, the harmonic progression is probably not altered by the passing tone. If you think the tune is in the relative major here (in your case, C major) then the strong beats are probably Dominant Tonic (V I). I don't know if alternate versions appear in other editions or from other sources and I can't find out here at work at the moment. My advice is as Beth said, to "play what you like best." Cammy P.S. My cheat sheet includes a nice duo for melody and Cello. If you want to test that out, I could send you the pdf off line. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:30:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:24:48 +0000 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <002501c3ae12$0466dbc0$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I suspect not! Take for example the sequence A1 Star right and left A2 Circle left and right B (Actives) down the middle and back to 2nd place This makes a whole 24 bar dance. If I now come along with a 32 bar dance A1 Star right and left A2 Circle left and right B (Actives) down the middle and back to 2nd place C All swing Am I precluded from using your sequence since that is copyright? If that were the case, we wouldn't get many new dances. In fact, taken to its extreme, if I invent a new figure, eg a wazoo, if I write that down can I copyright it and stop anyone else from using it? Again, I am sure that the answer is no. Sadly, the folks who write the tunes can all earn royalties when other people use it (in the UK for sure), but if anyone writes a dance there is no protection at all. Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Stamler Sent: 18 November 2003 19:18 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA Hi folks: All that being the case...if a sequence of social dance steps is not copyrightable, is a verbal description of that sequence copyrightable? In other words, if I had composed: A1 Circle to the left, back to the right A2 Left hand star, right hands back would it be a violation of copyright to reprint that, but not a violation to print: A1 All join hands and go left, then the other way back A2 Left hands across, then the other way back ?? It would seem, to this lay person, that I would have an intellectual-property right to the exact phrase-sequence in the first cited instance, although not to the underlying ideas. Rather as though, if Shakespeare was now alive and writing, he might have written: "What light from yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun" which would be covered by copyright, although if I should then write: "Hey! Lookit the light in the window And check out the babe on the balcony!" he couldn't sue me. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:30:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:24:34 -0500 From: DavBarnert-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Preannouncing Dances To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4D7ED7DB.4A9C1429.0ACF18CD-AT-aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yonina wrote- >Last time I was up at the mike I announced that the next >dance was a traditional dance, and that it did not have any >ranting, but was fairly energetic. About a third of the room >sat down. What, one wonders, was the dance? David Barnert Albany, NY ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:45:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:44:03 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Question for the list To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <000401c3ae14$b4b8e160$fc8c4a0c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <5.2.0.9.0.20031118120707.0252adb0-AT-popserver.panix.com> Sharon Green wrote: <> Indeed; anyone who has those additional figures, please do send them along! Peace, Paul At 01:22 PM 11/18/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Hi folks: > >We're working on setting up our annual winter ball, and were wondering: > >1) What does your local group charge for a ball? > >2) What's included in the fee besides the dancing (e.g., workshops, >afternoon practice session, food, next-morning brunch) > >3) How much do your musicians get paid? > >Feel free to reply off-list, and let me know if you'd rather the group >remained anonymous (that is, I'd list something like "Group D: $20, >afternoon walk-through, snacks, $100 per musician") > >Thanks in advance! > >Peace, >Paul > >"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change >the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:48:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:46:52 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <000901c3ae15$196c9ac0$fc8c4a0c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <002501c3ae12$0466dbc0$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Barraclough <> So am I. But my question was not whether you're precluded from using the figure, but whether you're precluded from using my exact language to describe it? Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:28:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:23:34 +0000 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Royal Albert Query To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <002701c3ae1a$397111c0$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Is it just me getting a sense of deja-vu or did I dream answering this question a few days ago? It's a dance around the other couple 3/4 using a pas-de-bas step (flatened polka). Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of John Wood Sent: 18 November 2003 19:05 To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Royal Albert Query ECD Dancers: Could someone enlighten me as to executing the D part of "Royal Albert" [Community Manual #7]. It is such a long time ago that I last danced it that I cannot remember if it is a 3/4 Hey or a dance round as in "Danish Double Quadrille"? Thanks in advance. Regards, John Bedford, Nova Scotia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:01:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:00:25 -0800 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FBA9679.40700-AT-sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <4.2.2.20031117141837.02a4fc20-AT-shell.shore.net> Mark R Dobyns Jones wrote: > *** The amazing fact to take notice of, is that United States law does > not recognize an intellectual property right (copy right) in what is > termed SOCIAL DANCE STEPS, which amounts to, with some small legitimate > room for dispute, social dance choreography. Ok, since it's legitimate, I'm going to try to squeeze into the room for dispute, small though it may be. I dispute whether "social dance steps" are the same thing as either "social dances" or "social dance choreography." I believe that the point of the exception for "social dance steps" is that there's no copyright in STEPS. That is, after all, what it SAYS. If they'd meant "social dances," it would have been very easy to say that, but they didn't say it, so that strongly suggests (a) that they didn't mean it, and (b) that there's some difference between "social dance steps" and "social dances." It seems pretty clear to me that the difference between a dance step and a dance is that a dance is a collection of dance steps arranged in a particular order. As a general matter, it's entirely possible to create copyrightable collections of public-domain items. If I publish a collection of 16th-century sonnets, for example, my collection is protected by copyright; you can copy an individual sonnet from my book, because the sonnets themselves are in the public domain, but you can't copy my entire book, because choosing the sonnets and arranging them in order is a copyrightable "work of authorship." The fact that the individual steps aren't copyrightable doesn't mean that a collection of them in a particular order isn't, any more than the fact that individual words aren't copyrightable means that ordered collections of words aren't. This isn't just my opinion, by the way. A 1986 case called Horgan v. McMillan quoted with approval the following passage from the Compendium of Copyright Office Practices, which is published by the U.S. Copyright Office: "Social dance steps and simple routines are not copyrightable. . . . Thus, for example, the basic waltz step, the hustle step, and the second position of classical ballet are not copyrightable. However, this is not a restriction against the incorporation of social dance steps and simple routines, as such, in an otherwise registrable choreographic work. Social dance steps, folk dance steps, and individual ballet steps alike may be utilized as the choreographer's basic material in much the same way that words are the writer's basic material." I remain unconvinced that the restriction on copyright protection for dance steps has anything whatsoever to do with a restriction on copyright protection for dances. I am unaware of any case or statute which draws any distinction between social dances and performance dances for purposes of copyright protection. There could, of course, be cases or statutes I'm not aware of that do draw this distinction, and I'd be happy to have them brought to my attention. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:48:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:47:44 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jon quotes: "Social dance steps and simple routines are not copyrightable. . . ." Couldn't Paul's example: A1 Circle to the left, back to the right A2 Left hand star, right hands back be considered a simple routine? It is my understanding that in the scientific fields, patentable inventions are not allowed if they are considered "obvious." In other words, I would say that any reasonably proficient choreographer would have thought of putting these steps together and of describing them in this fashion. In fact I (and probably thousands of others) have thought of this sequence and written it in precisely those words (down to the "A1" and "A2") dozens of times. I know nothing of the law in these matters, but in the scientific world this would be considered obvious and public domain and not "novel" and worthy of protection. My own personal philosophy is that once I have called a dance or played a tune in a public setting, it becomes the property of the public. If I get around to and can afford to publish it before someone else does I guess I regain some ownership. On the other hand, when I say it belongs to the community, I mean that no one else should be able to copyright it either. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:10:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:09:37 -0800 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FBAC2D1.2030903-AT-sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Campbell Kaynor wrote: > Jon quotes: > "Social dance steps and simple routines are not copyrightable. . . ." > > Couldn't Paul's example: > > A1 Circle to the left, back to the right > A2 Left hand star, right hands back > > be considered a simple routine? Possibly. I gather that "simple routine" means something that's more than just a step, but which is such a standard combination that it's tantamount to a single step because it's part of the repertoire as a unit, and I think that's an excellent example of something like that. The one that occurs to me is "set and turn single," which is really two individual steps -- there are lots of examples where each occurs without the other one -- but which shows up as a group so often that it's LIKE an individual step. There's certainly always going to be a factual question as to whether something is so basic as to constitute a "step or simple routine." My point, however, was that a complete dance, with all the A's and the B's, is unlikely to be so standard as to constitute a "simple routine." There may be dances that are so simple that they'd qualify, but I'd say they'd be the exceptions rather than the rule. > It is my understanding that in the scientific fields, patentable inventions > are not allowed if they are considered "obvious." You'd think so, wouldn't you, but check out this patent: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,443,036.WKU.&OS=PN/5,443,036&RS=PN/5,443,036 (If you can't manage that ridiculously huge URL, just go to www.uspto.gov and look up patent number 5,443,036. Really. It's worth it.) > In other words, I would > say that any reasonably proficient choreographer would have thought of > putting these steps together and of describing them in this fashion. In > fact I (and probably thousands of others) have thought of this sequence and > written it in precisely those words (down to the "A1" and "A2") dozens of > times. I know nothing of the law in these matters, but in the scientific > world this would be considered obvious and public domain and not "novel" > and worthy of protection. The issue in the copyright arena is called "originality" rather than "non-obviousness," but it's closely related. Some things are just not sufficiently original to warrant copyright protection, and the Senate has made it clear that they consider dance steps to fall in that category. Another example is alphabetic listings of names in telephone books: that's not subject to copyright protection because there's just no originality to putting names together in alphabetical order. By the same token, I suppose, an alphabetic list of words, without any definitions or anything, just the words, probably wouldn't be copyrightable -- but of course that has no bearing on whether those same words arranged in a more original order, such as for example the way I arranged the words in this paragraph, is copyrightable. > My own personal philosophy is that once I have called a dance or played a > tune in a public setting, it becomes the property of the public. If I get > around to and can afford to publish it before someone else does I guess I > regain some ownership. On the other hand, when I say it belongs to the > community, I mean that no one else should be able to copyright it either. I think it's great that you want to make your dances and tunes the property of the public. By all means write "Released into the public domain" at the bottom of all printed copies of them, and verbally inform anyone who asks that you intend your works to be in the public domain. Of course, that means that if someone plays your tune for his Uncle Steve, who turns out to be Stephen Spielberg and who likes it so much that he makes it the main title music for his next blockbuster movie, then Uncle Steve doesn't have to give you a penny. If you're not ok with that, then maybe you should consider something like "Licensed for use at all social dance events and for any non-commercial use" on your sheet music and telling people that instead when they ask. The nice thing about the copyright laws is that the choice is yours, which is how I think it should be. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:57:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:56:41 -0500 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <003001c3ae40$69433ce0$2020bc3f-AT-g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cammy wrote: > It is my understanding that in the scientific fields, > patentable inventions are not allowed if they are considered > "obvious." I'm not qualified to discuss copyright law but I will point out that patent protection is a matter separate from copyright, the latter being the basis of protection in the current thread. "Nonobviousness" is one requirement for patent protection, yes. In the field of copyright, "ideas" are not protectable; rather, it is the "expression" of those ideas that give rise to copyright. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:02:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:02:21 -0500 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <003101c3ae41$2ba1ff10$2020bc3f-AT-g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jon suggested we look this up: > If you can't manage that ridiculously huge URL, just go to > www.uspto.gov > and look up patent number 5,443,036. Really. It's worth it. It certainly is! Gave me my laugh for the day! Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:03:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:02:59 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: TESTING TESTING To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031119020259.14664.qmail-AT-web41501.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- John Wood wrote: > No messages for 3 days -- testing testing OK Ben stein > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:41:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:42:31 -0500 From: Claire Schaffer Subject: Fw: Constantly Gently Guiding To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002101c3ae57$8c1ffc00$f72cf7a5-AT-dcudp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Constantly Gently Guiding I heartily agree with Brooke. I no more expect to be guided by a "gent" in ECD (or contra) than in crossing the street -- a quaint custom some older dancers may remember. Mutual attention and assistance to one's partner is a much more welcome and natural expression of considerateness. Claire, New York City Brooke Friendly wrote: > Indeed?! How tiresome for both sexes. I much prefer a more mutual dance experience and for any guidance (which, yes, should always be gentle) to be > occasional rather than constant and to come from/be given to as needed in the moment not based on one's sex or role. > > Brooke > Ashland Oregon USA > > Tom Vincent wrote: > > > *All* of us gents are somewhat > > constantly gently guiding the ladies, though almost > > certainly with both their consent and expectation > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:28:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:27:51 -0600 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <006801c3ae66$428f7160$92914a0c-AT-paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <3FBAC2D1.2030903-AT-sbcglobal.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Berger > It is my understanding that in the scientific fields, patentable inventions > are not allowed if they are considered "obvious." <> "A method for inducing cats to exercise consists of directing a beam of invisible light produced by a hand-held laser apparatus onto the floor or wall or other opaque surface in the vicinity of the cat, then moving the laser so as to cause the bright pattern of light to move in an irregular way fascinating to cats, and to any other animal with a chase instinct. " And the ability to see invisible light. Can cats see in IR or UV? Are we off-topic yet? Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:32:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:31:50 +0000 (GMT) From: dcculb-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031118.233213.11279.886743-AT-webmail02.lax.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm attempting a reconstruction of the dance "Bouzer Castle" and am running into some serious logistical problems. Here are the original instructions, from Playford: (Longways for as many as well, music in AABB structure, 2 strains of 8 measures each) "Honor to the Presence, then to your women. Lead up all forward and back, then again. Then the first man cast off into the second woman's place, and the second woman into the first man's place, and the second man do the same into the first woman's; so the first couple being in the second couple's place, go the figure of 8, the second couple being in the first place do the same, then hands round and turn single. Then the women take right hand and the men right hands, and change places, then change places with your own, the second couple being in the first couple's place cast off, the other leading up the middle, and cast off into the second couple's place and meet, then cast off into their own places again, and so lead down into the second place. Do this to the end." The first of these figures (which seems to be an introductory figure) fits once through the A music perfectly well, as does the casting figure, thusly: A 1-4 M1 and W2 cast off around partners to change places 5-8 M2 and W1 do the same But then the instructions for A2 basically seem to say: 1s do a whole figure 8 around the 2s 2s do the same All 4 circle once around and turn single. There's no way, outside of taking massive amounts of amphetemines, that the dancers can fit all that into only 8 measures! (And I wouldn't recommend that.) It WOULD work if the 1s and 2s only did a half figure eight, though, although they'd have to be done rather quickly. Has anyone else on the list tried to reconstruct this dance, and if so how did you deal with the A2 section? Dawn Culbertson (aka Puzzled) Baltimore, MD ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:13:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:13:32 -0800 From: Pat Corvini Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000101c3ae7d$679e2bb0$b2da5142-AT-PC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul, > "A method for inducing cats to exercise consists of directing a beam > of invisible light produced by a hand-held laser apparatus onto the > floor or wall or other opaque surface in the vicinity of the cat, > then moving the laser so as to cause the bright pattern of light to > move in an irregular way fascinating to cats, and to any other animal > with a chase instinct. " > > And the ability to see invisible light. > > Can cats see in IR or UV? Are we off-topic yet? My guess would be that the invisible light is UV and that the bright pattern of light is fluorescence in the visible. I wonder if that would work on a polished wood floor? If so, it suggests a completely new method for providing help to beginning dancers on where to go.... Maybe we can patent it. If not, at least we're back on topic. Pat Corvini ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:26:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:28:59 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: dcculb-AT-juno.com CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L3777LY4KU98MHIT-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >> I'm attempting a reconstruction of the dance "Bouzer Castle" and am running into some serious logistical problems. Here are the original instructions, from >Playford: > (Longways for as many as well, music in AABB structure, 2 strains of 8 >measures each) > "Honor to the Presence, then to your women. Lead up all >forward and back, then again. > Then the first man cast off into the second woman's place, and the second >woman into the first man's place, and the second man do the same into the first >woman's; so the first couple being in the second couple's place, go the figure >of 8, the second couple being in the first place do the same, then hands round >and turn single. > Then the women take right hand and the men right hands, and change places, >then change places with your own, the second couple being in the first couple's >place cast off, the other leading up the middle, and cast off into the second >couple's place and meet, then cast off into their own places again, and so lead >down into the second place. Do this to the end." > The first of these figures (which seems to be an introductory figure) fits once through the A music perfectly well, as does the casting figure, thusly: > A 1-4 M1 and W2 cast off around partners to change places > 5-8 M2 and W1 do the same > But then the instructions for A2 basically seem to say: > 1s do a whole figure 8 around the 2s > 2s do the same > All 4 circle once around and turn single. > There's no way, outside of taking massive amounts of amphetemines, that the >dancers can fit all that into only 8 measures! (And I wouldn't recommend that.) >It WOULD work if the 1s and 2s only did a half figure eight, though, although >they'd have to be done rather quickly. Has anyone else on the list tried to >reconstruct this dance, and if so how did you deal with the A2 section? I haven't before, but am intrigued. It seems to me that you can get some useful information by working through the last part of the dance (neighbors change by right, partners change, twos cast down with the ones leading up, casting down, casting up, leading down, while the subsequent actions of the twos aren't specified.) Going through this piece by piece, if everybody's going to come out proper and progressed, the starting position needs to be improper and unprogressed. After your A1, we're improper and progressed. Full figure eights and full circles won't change that, so the dance won't progress. Simultaneous half figure eights would get us proper and progressed; a circle _half_ and turn single would get us improper and unprogressed, while filling the music. So here's a reconstruction that fulfills the minimum requirements of being related to the instructions and actually working: Intro: A1: Slow step and honor right and left to the presence; step and honor right and left to partner. A2: Up a double and back; repeat. Figure: A1: 1-4 M1 and W2 cast off around partners to change places 5-8 M2 and W1 do the same A2: 1-2: 1s half-figure eight up 3-4: 2s half-figure eight down 5-6: Circle four hands half way 7-8: and turn single B1: 1-2: Neighbors change by right hand 3-4: Partners change 5-8: 2s cast down while 1s lead up B2: 1-4: 1s cast down (while 2s lead up) 5-6: 1s cast up briskly (while 2s lead down) 7-8: 1s lead down to progressed place. [Most of the the timing given is quite arbitrary.] My problem with this reconstruction is that it "corrects" too many errors and requires ignoring what the source plainly says. I don't believe Playford is likely to be wrong about the figure eights being full and seriatim. There are alternative interpretations; I can't comment on how likely they are. Here's the "Twenty-ninth of May" (double progression) theory: A1: as above A2: 1s full figure of eight up through the twos (You get 8 bars for this in "Childgrove") B1: 2s full figure of eight down through ones B2: 1-4: Circle four halfway (progressive) 5-8: Turn single (all progressed and improper) (The rest of the dance is done with the *next* couple, not the one you've been working with.) A1: 1: Men take right hand; 2: women take right hand; 3-4: turn halfway to change. 5: 1s take left hand 6: 2s take left hand 7-8: turn halfway to change. A2: 1-8: 2s cast down while 1s lead up B1: 1-8: 1s cast up while 2s lead down B2: 1-8: 2s cast up while 1s lead down (There's an awful lot of hand-waving in making the description fit the music, but this will at least work and comes closer to honoring the original description than the single-progression interpretation given above.) I hope this helps, or at least is interesting. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:17:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:44:48 -0500 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [SPAM:#] Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031119.081715.-379963.7.AllisonThompson-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Isn't this argument similar to one involving recipes? Everyone has a spaghetti & meatballs recipe--what's copyright is the language describing the food & the process, not the outcome or the ingredients. Allison Thompson On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:00:25 -0800 Jon Berger writes: > Mark R Dobyns Jones wrote: > > > > *** The amazing fact to take notice of, is that United States law > does > > not recognize an intellectual property right (copy right) in what > is > > termed SOCIAL DANCE STEPS, which amounts to, with some small > legitimate > > room for dispute, social dance choreography. > > Ok, since it's legitimate, I'm going to try to squeeze into the room > for > dispute, small though it may be. I dispute whether "social dance > steps" > are the same thing as either "social dances" or "social dance > choreography." I believe that the point of the exception for > "social dance > steps" is that there's no copyright in STEPS. That is, after all, > what it > SAYS. If they'd meant "social dances," it would have been very easy > to say > that, but they didn't say it, so that strongly suggests (a) that > they > didn't mean it, and (b) that there's some difference between "social > dance > steps" and "social dances." It seems pretty clear to me that the > difference between a dance step and a dance is that a dance is a > collection > of dance steps arranged in a particular order. > > As a general matter, it's entirely possible to create copyrightable > collections of public-domain items. If I publish a collection of > 16th-century sonnets, for example, my collection is protected by > copyright; > you can copy an individual sonnet from my book, because the sonnets > themselves are in the public domain, but you can't copy my entire > book, > because choosing the sonnets and arranging them in order is a > copyrightable > "work of authorship." The fact that the individual steps aren't > copyrightable doesn't mean that a collection of them in a particular > order > isn't, any more than the fact that individual words aren't > copyrightable > means that ordered collections of words aren't. > > This isn't just my opinion, by the way. A 1986 case called Horgan > v. > McMillan quoted with approval the following passage from the > Compendium of > Copyright Office Practices, which is published by the U.S. Copyright > Office: > > "Social dance steps and simple routines are not copyrightable. . . . > Thus, > for example, the basic waltz step, the hustle step, and the second > position > of classical ballet are not copyrightable. However, this is not a > restriction against the incorporation of social dance steps and > simple > routines, as such, in an otherwise registrable choreographic work. > Social > dance steps, folk dance steps, and individual ballet steps alike may > be > utilized as the choreographer's basic material in much the same way > that > words are the writer's basic material." > > I remain unconvinced that the restriction on copyright protection > for dance > steps has anything whatsoever to do with a restriction on copyright > protection for dances. I am unaware of any case or statute which > draws any > distinction between social dances and performance dances for > purposes of > copyright protection. There could, of course, be cases or statutes > I'm not > aware of that do draw this distinction, and I'd be happy to have > them > brought to my attention. > > -- > Jon Berger > http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:33:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:32:25 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Just another thought: Are you sure the music for this dance is complete? When the instructions don't appear to fit the melody, either could be suspect. CK ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:00:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:00:31 -0800 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FBB858F.2050403-AT-sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031119.081715.-379963.7.AllisonThompson-AT-juno.com> Allison M Thompson wrote: > Isn't this argument similar to one involving recipes? Everyone has a > spaghetti & meatballs recipe--what's copyright is the language describing > the food & the process, not the outcome or the ingredients. Actually, no, it's not. The thing that makes it different is that "choreographic works" are explicitly mentioned as being one of the things that are subject to copyright; see 17 USC 102(a)(4). If the statute said that "culinary works" were subject to copyright, then there would be very little question that the spaghetti and meatballs THEMSELVES -- not the recipe, but the actual dish -- were copyrightable. That still wouldn't mean, for example, that pasta was copyrightable; that is, if someone invented a new type of pasta, perhaps noodles cut into the shape of little hearts, there would be a strong argument that that person couldn't prevent others from using heart-shaped noodles, because mere ingredients are too unoriginal to qualify for copyright protection. But if "culinary works" were expressly protected the way "choreographic works" are, then you could come up with an original spaghetti-and-meatballs dish and sue anyone who copied it for copyright infringement, regardless of the fact that the dish was made up of non-copyrightable ingredients. (Note, by the way, that you couldn't sue someone for copyright infringement who just happened, independently, to cook the identical dish. Copyrights do NOT protect against independent creation. Patents do: if I could PATENT my spaghetti and meatballs dish, then I could go after someone who just happened to make an identical one without even knowing about mine. Copyrights, as the name suggests, are just about copying.) Anyway, the reason that the "outcome of the ingredients" isn't subject to copyright in the case of culinary works is that culinary works aren't protected by the statute. You'd probably find a lot of high-end professional chefs who will argue that they should be, but they're not. But "choreographic works" ARE. The folks the legislators had in mind when they wrote this provision were almost certainly the George Balanchines and Jerome Robbinses and Agnes de Milles of the world, not us folkies, but there's nothing I know of that draws a line between Balanchine's choreography for "Swan Lake" and an English country dance composed by someone on this list. Now, descriptions of things are, as Alison correctly points out, a whole different kettle of fish than the things themselves. Culinary works are not subject to copyright, but prose describing them can be. (It isn't always; as I understand it, the list of ingredients in a recipe is NOT subject to copyright, and the descriptions are only copyrightable if they're not "typical"; that is, "saute the onions until brown" isn't copyrightable, but "stir the onions lovingly over medium heat until they attain the color of the beautiful soft eyes of a basset hound" might be.) Similarly, an essay describing the San Francisco skyline as seen from the Marin headlands is certainly copyrightable, whereas the skyline itself is not. However, you can also have copyrightable descriptions of things that are themselves copyrightable: one obvious example would be a piece of literary criticism. In fact, the copyrightability of the subject matter has nothing whatsoever to do with the copyrightability of the description. So the notes for a dance may or may not be independently copyrightable -- I'd say that normally they probably aren't -- but that's a completely independent question from whether the underlying choreographic work is copyrightable, which I'd say it normally is. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:48:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:48:18 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031119154818.48725.qmail-AT-web20608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Alan: Here's a possibility. My directions are a bit compressed, and usually I wouldn't put the proper & progressed tags everywhere, but I was attempting to keep track. Please let me know if I've misallocated somewhere. A few more remarks below. A1 1-4 1st man & 2nd woman cast off, ending in each other’s places. 5-8 2nd man & 1st wo. the same. All improper and progressed. A2 1-4 Double half-figure of 8. All proper and progressed. 5-8 Circle left half and turn single left. All improper and unprogressed. B1 1-4 Neighbors change by the right hand and set to each other. 5-8 Partners change by the right should and set to each other. All proper and progressed. B2 Cast and lead variant: 1-4 2s cast off and lead up as the 1s lead up and cast off. 5-8 1s alone cast UP again and lead down to progressed places. Moving from the half-double-fig. to the circle is just a hair awkward for 2nd wo., but it's nothing to the inconveniences (mostly male) choreographers imposed on women dancers. We've declared the whiplash turn for 1st wo. in Sun Assembly a feature rather than a bug, but think about it... I have ADDED setting to each other in B1 3-4 and 7-8. In the 1670s they may have occupied the time with footwork while the turn was in progress; or had a "finishing" step sequence to partner at the end of B1. You could, for instance, accelerate the turn & change, and add a set-&-turn-single to partner in 5-8. Or you could have Hole-in-the-Wall style slow changes in B1 (which you can do with a hand as well as without). Now, for my taste, I don't love casting down and then immediately casting UP again and leading down. --but that's quite idiosyncratic--Irish Lamentation and Trip to Tunbridge and hundreds of others seem to demand just this, so it's clearly something that the full-bottomed-wig-and-mantua set thought was just groovy, so I suppose I'd make the best of it. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:00:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:00:08 -0800 (PST) From: Graham Christian Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle (bis) To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031119160008.37599.qmail-AT-web20607.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My apologies--the originating question was Dawn's, I believe, not Alan's. And yes, the double-half-fig. is brisk, but I think quite possible with a skip step or skip-change. ===== Graham Christian "They love dance well that will dance among thorns." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:09:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:11:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Colin Hume Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2003111917110.662897-AT-colin-hume> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The dance is interpreted by Bernard Bentley in Fallibroome 6, and despite the discussion over copyright I am NOT going to print his version verbatim. I will just note that he assumes the horizontal line separating the second and third figures is in the wrong place (as happens in other dances), and that each of the three figure requires one "A" and one "B". If you finish the second figure with the twos half figure eight half-way you should have no trouble fitting the remainder into one "A" and one "B". That's the way I've always danced it and called it in England. Bentley agrees that the first figure is an introduction, and we do this in reverse at the end of the dance, so that the final honour is to the presence. Colin Hume Email colin-AT-colinhume.com Web site http://www.colinhume.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:28:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:28:34 -0500 From: "Gordon, Judy" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Preannouncing Dances To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_D/EO9kVdKtvhXt39ZSFygg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_D/EO9kVdKtvhXt39ZSFygg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi. David Barnert asked: >What, one wonders, was the dance? A fun dance that Genny Shimer used to like to do: La Russe. Yonina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:24:34 -0500 From: DavBarnert-AT-aol.com Subject: Re: Preannouncing Dances Message-ID: <4D7ED7DB.4A9C1429.0ACF18CD-AT-aol.com> Yonina wrote- >Last time I was up at the mike I announced that the next >dance was a traditional dance, and that it did not have any >ranting, but was fairly energetic. About a third of the room >sat down. What, one wonders, was the dance? David Barnert Albany, NY ------------------------------ Judy Judy Gordon Managing Editor Securities Information Standard & Poor's 55 Water Street, 34th Floor Tel: (212) 438-7498 Fax: (212) 438-7537 judy_gordon-AT-standardandpoors.com -------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this message is intended only for the recipient, and may be a confidential attorney-client communication or may otherwise be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, please be aware that any dissemination or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you, Standard & Poor's -------------------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_D/EO9kVdKtvhXt39ZSFygg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Preannouncing Dances

Hi. David Barnert asked:


>What, one wonders, was the dance?

A fun dance that Genny Shimer used to like to do: La Russe.

Yonina

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:24:34 -0500
From: DavBarnert-AT-aol.com
Subject: Re: Preannouncing Dances
Message-ID: <4D7ED7DB.4A9C1429.0ACF18CD-AT-aol.com>

Yonina wrote-

>Last time I was up at the mike I announced that the next
>dance was a traditional dance, and that it did not have any
>ranting, but was fairly energetic. About a third of the room
>sat down.

What, one wonders, was the dance?

David Barnert
Albany, NY

------------------------------


Judy
Judy Gordon
Managing Editor
Securities Information
Standard & Poor's
55 Water Street, 34th Floor
Tel: (212) 438-7498
Fax: (212) 438-7537
judy_gordon-AT-standardandpoors.com

The information contained in this message is intended only for the recipient, and may be a confidential attorney-client communication or may otherwise be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, please be aware that any dissemination or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
Thank you,
Standard & Poor's
--Boundary_(ID_D/EO9kVdKtvhXt39ZSFygg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:48:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:48:21 -0500 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Regency Ball Saturday 11/22, New Haven, CT To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT-generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Greetings all. I've posted briefly on this as part of my class announcements, but I'll also mention it separately for anyone who isn't already going to one of the umpteen events this weekend. My group is holding a small Regency Assembly in New Haven, Connecticut, this Saturday night, November 22nd. Afternoon workshops will precede it in order to orient everyone to the dances and steps. The program will include country dances, waltzes, quadrilles, and reels. Live music by Spare Parts. Period refreshments at the breaks. Calling by myself and Patri J. Pugliese of the Commonwealth Vintage Dancers. This won't be a large event, but it should have an interesting mix of vintage, English, and Scottish dancers. Period costume is not required, although it is always welcome. More details may be found here: http://www.elegantarts.org/ballindex.html Feel free to email me with any questions. Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:53:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:53:21 +0000 From: Orly Krasner Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, All-- I have a vague recollection of actually doing Bouzer Castle at some point (or at least seeing the title someplace before), so on a lark I checked Hugh Stewart's database. According to that, there's a Bouzer Castle in Fallibroome 6. Anybody have a copy within reach? (Sharon G.--are you out there??) Is it the same dance Dawn is working on? --Orly (who is also enjoying the copyright thread. . . .) _________________________________________________________________ Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:13:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:13:51 -0800 From: kevin hughes Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: CD with ECD tunes available To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_N6o9mXZgx1opUl/pHKDJRQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_N6o9mXZgx1opUl/pHKDJRQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Some members of the Newcastle Country Dancers who play music have just released a CD with some ECD tunes on it. www.cdbaby.com/brunos Cheers, Kevin www.brunoband.com --Boundary_(ID_N6o9mXZgx1opUl/pHKDJRQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Some members of the Newcastle Country Dancers who
play music have just released a CD with some ECD tunes
on it. 
 
 
Cheers,
Kevin
 
--Boundary_(ID_N6o9mXZgx1opUl/pHKDJRQ)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:19:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:21:57 -0800 From: Norman Bradley Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD - Submit Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Pat and Paul, My understanding is that the reference to invisible light refers to the light beam before it hits something other than air. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu]On Behalf Of Pat Corvini Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 1:14 AM To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA Paul, > "A method for inducing cats to exercise consists of directing a beam > of invisible light produced by a hand-held laser apparatus onto the > floor or wall or other opaque surface in the vicinity of the cat, > then moving the laser so as to cause the bright pattern of light to > move in an irregular way fascinating to cats, and to any other animal > with a chase instinct. " > > And the ability to see invisible light. > > Can cats see in IR or UV? Are we off-topic yet? My guess would be that the invisible light is UV and that the bright pattern of light is fluorescence in the visible. I wonder if that would work on a polished wood floor? If so, it suggests a completely new method for providing help to beginning dancers on where to go.... Maybe we can patent it. If not, at least we're back on topic. Pat Corvini ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:40:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:38:48 +0000 (GMT) From: dcculb-AT-juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031119.103927.849.674098-AT-webmail06.lax.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:32:25 -0500 Campbell Kaynor writes: > > Just another thought: > Are you sure the music for this dance is complete? When the > instructions > don't appear to fit the melody, either could be suspect. It seems to be complete--2 strains of 8 measures each with indications that they be repeated. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:52:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:52:41 -0800 From: kevin hughes Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: CD with ECD tunes available To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Some members of the Newcastle Country Dancers who play music have just released a CD with some ECD tunes on it. www.cdbaby.com/brunos Cheers, Kevin www.brunoband.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:22:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:24:36 -0800 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031119111216.025868a8-AT-popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 05:53 PM 11/19/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, All-- > I have a vague recollection of actually doing Bouzer Castle at some > point (or at least seeing the title someplace before), so on a lark I > checked Hugh Stewart's database. According to that, there's a Bouzer > Castle in Fallibroome 6. Anybody have a copy within reach? (Sharon > G.--are you out there??) Is it the same dance Dawn is working on? Bouzer Castle in Fallibroome 6 is Bernard Bentley's interpretation of the dance found in The Dancing Master, Vol. I, 17th Edition, 1721. The 1721 text reads: Honour to the Prefence, then to your We. Lead up all forward and back, that again. __________________________________________________________________________ Then the 1. Man caft off into the 2. Wo. place, and the 2. Wo. into the 1. Man's place, and the 2. Man do the fame in the 1. Wo. place, then the firft cu. being in the 2. cu. place, go the Figure of 8, and the 2. cu. being in the 1. cu. place do the fame, then hands round and turn S. ___________________________________________________________________________ Then the We. take Right-hands, and the Men Right-hands, and change places, then change places with your own, the 2. cu. being in the 1. cu. place caft off, the other lead up in the middle, and caft off into the 2. cu. place and meet, then caft off into their own places again, and fo lead down into the 2. place. Do this to the end. Boy! My fpell-checker fure didn't like that! Much love, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:47:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:42:10 -0400 From: John Wood Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Not Receiving ECD Messages To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Message-ID: <026f01c3aed5$396519e0$8492e018-AT-johnwood> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L102N7OG7I8YHSYJ-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Dear Alan: I know you are a busy person, so I apologize for taking up your time. But for approximately a week I have not been receiving ECD messages. I thought at first there was no activity -- but apparently there was. I thought that somehow I had been "cut off" -- but when I tried to re-subscribe I received a message saying I was already subscribed. I have looked in my "filter" file and cannot see any rogue sorting file there. Can you help in some way, please? Regards, John ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:46:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:46:26 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just checked the Illustrated Compendium and I agree based on the cadence of the melody. (You had misinterpretted my question. In this case, someone was asking if a litteral interpretation of the instructions is too much dance for the tune. The question I was asking isn't how many measures in the tune, but rather whether there could be a phrase of melody accidentally ommitted. The best answer is usually found in the tune itself and it is my opinion that the B music as, written is exactly what one would expect to follow the A music and therefore it is unlikely that there was and error in the melody and the reconstruction should confine itself to trying to fit the choreography to the melody rather than vice versa). Thanks, Cammy dcculb-AT-juno.com Sent by: To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.s cc: tanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle 19-Nov-2003 01:38 PM Please respond to ECD On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:32:25 -0500 Campbell Kaynor writes: > > Just another thought: > Are you sure the music for this dance is complete? When the > instructions > don't appear to fit the melody, either could be suspect. It seems to be complete--2 strains of 8 measures each with indications that they be repeated. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:08:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:07:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bouzer Castle To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200311192307.hAJN7IFa013576-AT-mail.tgis.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I have never looked at Bouzer Castle before but here is my first attempt. I have deliberately not looked at the various other contributions so it may be the same or may differ! Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk The dance has three bits of text with horizontal rules between them. It looks like Text A ------ Text B ------ Text C The music clearly has two 8-bar phrases which are both repeated. I am assuming that the dance is duple minor. Text A is clearly an introduction and is not repeated Before trying to interpret B and C we need to determine whether they are separate figures, ie should we do B until everyone is back and then do C until everyone is back, or not. That this is so is suggested by the presence of the “Do this to the end” at the end of the C text. However, their being separate figures is unlikely because a) there is no corresponding instruction at the end of the B text, and b) because the C text either takes you from proper to improper or from improper to proper. My conclusion, therefore is that B leaves you improper and precedes C. If this is the case we are probably looking at 16 bars for B and 16 bars for C although there is an outside chance that it could be 32 bars for both B and C. However, whilst B looks as though it could well do with more than 16 bars, C definitely does not want more than 16 bars. This leads us to the conclusion that: The A text is done to the A music played twice, but only at the beginning of the dance The B text is done to the A music repeated The C text is done to the B Music repeated The B text ends with everyone in home places, but improper The C text ends with everyone proper and progressed There are 16 bars for the A music but we know that the last 2 must be a turn single. This leaves 14 bars for the casts, figures and circle! The casting instruction is clearly missing the bit for the 1st lady to go into the 2nd man’s place but we can safely assume this since because of the desire for symetry and because it says that the first couple is in the second couple’s place at the end of the casting. We therefore seem to be left with 2 choices. Either everyone moves at the same time in the casts or 2nd corners follow 1st corners. This gives us a choice of: 2 bar casts, all move = 2 bars 2 bar casts, consecutive moves = 4 bars 4 bar casts, all move = 4 bars 4 bar casts, consecutive moves = 8 bars 8 bars is unlikely because we only have 16 and we know that 2 are for the turn single and at least 2 are for the circle so we would only have 4 bars for both couples to “go the figure of 8” We therefore need either 2 or 4 bars for the casts. Since we are already improper after the casts and we need to be improper after the circle (to be improper at the beginning of the B music) we either need to do simultaneous whole figure of 8 plus a whole circle or we could do consecutive 1/2 figure of eight plus a circle 1/2 . The final set of castings and leadings is quite clear as to track but not so clear as to timing. The 2nd couple cast off from their current 1st couple place to 2nd couple place, and although not actually instructed so to do, lead/come back up the centre to this place. This could be done in six bars (and twelve are available). Meanwhile, the 1st couple has to lead up the middle from 2nd couple’s place, cast back to there and then cast back from there to the 1st couples place and lead down the middle. This is twice the track that the 2nd couple has to do and there are twelve bars available. This gives us something like: Introduction A1 1-4 Honour the presence A1 5-8 Honour your partner A2 1-8 Up a double and back twice Figure A1 1-4 All cast around right shoulder and travel clockwise into corner’s place A1 5-8 1st couple half figure of eight up A2 1-4 2nd couple half figure of eight down A2 5-6 Circle half left A2 7-8 Turn single (end facing along the side) B1 1-2 Change right with this person B1 3-4 Change left with partner 1st couple B1 5-8/ B2 1-8 couple lead up middle and cast off back to their new place, then cast off up the outside and lead back down through the 2nd couple to their new place. 2nd couple B1 5-8/ B2 1-8 cast off to 2nd couple’s place and return up the middle to their new place If you feel that there is too much time for the B music castings then you could do a Hole in the Wall change, also refered to as a paunch-to-paunch change (c) MAB term :) for the second change (takes up 2 bars, leaving 10 for leading/casts) or make both changes Hole in the Wall type changes leaving 8 bars for the leading/casts - too rushed for my taste but probably favoured by others. -- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:18:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:17:46 -0500 (EST) From: CPChurchOffice-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Requests re: Florida and New Jersey To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <65.1d029e71.2cee5f4a-AT-aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello Dancers, First, a small school in Stratford, New Jersey is seeking someone to teach a group of students some simple dances as part of their last day of school before Thanksgiving. Please reply off list to ViaCharis-AT-comcast.net if you are available on the morning of Wednesday, 11/26. Also, I will be visiting Cape Coral, Florida, near Fort Myers and Bradenton from 11/24-12/4 and hope to find a dance opportunity. If anyone can recommend anything I would be very grateful. Please reply off list to ViaCharis-AT-comcast.net Thank you, Margaret Talbot ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:55:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:53:46 -0800 From: Paul / Victoria Bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: civility to novices To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20031111100657.00af3dd0-AT-mail.oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, I'm tuning in late to the thread on civility. Here's my two cents. Even if a person is out of place, even if they are messing up the dance for everyone, even if they don't belong at a ball and don't know where they are going, PUSHING or PULLING them in the right direction is never the right thing to do. Its not just rude-- its dangerous. You don't know when a slight touch or push is going to strain a knee or sprain a wrist or dislocate an SI joint in an older or injured person. I'm a few months past getting my hip joint replaced, and I'm moving almost smoothly, but my muscles are still pretty weak (some were sliced through, some just atrophying from the long period with no exercise) . A tug or gentle push is enough to cause severe pain, or muscle spasms, or a dangerous fall. If someone is hopelessly in the wrong place, doesn't understand the calls or follow non-verbal cues maybe that is a good time to tell yourself Bruce Hamilton's mantra "Let go of what doesn't matter." That one round of that dance doesn't matter in the long history you will have of dancing ECD. Let go of trying to make the pattern "right". In just 32 bars you will be with someone who can dance with you in a more satisfying way. I suggest using the 32 bars you are with the hopeless beginner to smile and progress. Victoria in Seattle. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:00:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:00:43 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031121110043.23428.qmail-AT-web20012.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Jon Berger wrote: > Similarly, an essay describing the San Francisco skyline as seen > from the Marin headlands is certainly copyrightable, whereas the > skyline itself is not. But a photograph of that view _is_ copyrightable, and according to one source I've read, the copyright belongs to the photographer, no matter who retains the negative unless s/he sells the rights to it (often done for one specific use if there's a chance of selling it again). Andy in Portland __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:42:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:42:06 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: =?UNKNOWN?Q?ECD=A0list?= Message-ID: <20031121114206.67428.qmail-AT-web20004.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Michael Barraclough wrote: <> Paul Stamler replied: > So am I. But my question was not whether you're precluded from using > the figure, but whether you're precluded from using my exact > language to describe it? That would make it difficult to develop an understandable description of the dance if everyone had to use differet words to describe a given figure. Even if you are only using one figure from some other dance, the description needs similar in order to get the same result. Andy in Portland __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:06:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:04:56 -0500 (EST) From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Folks, Here is a test on this issue. Was anybody ever successful in copywriting the directions to such popular social dances as "The Electric Slide", "The Bus Stop", "The Twist", "The Watusi", "THe Mashed Pototoes" and "The Freddy"? If commercial successes like these do not have copyright protection, then it doesn't exist for social dances. Best, Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:33:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:33:42 -0500 From: Deborah Sheldon Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20031121093114.01d35128-AT-pop.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't know about those dances, but I do know that most Country Line Dances are copyrighted. That's one of the reasons those choreographers publish their dances in magazines - the copyright is easier to prove on a printed page. At 09:04 AM 11/21/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Folks, > Here is a test on this issue. Was anybody ever successful in copywriting >the directions to such popular social dances as "The Electric Slide", "The >Bus Stop", "The Twist", "The Watusi", "THe Mashed Pototoes" and "The >Freddy"? If commercial successes like these do not have copyright >protection, then it doesn't exist for social dances. > >Best, > Terry ---------- VTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVT Deborah A. Sheldon Alumni Publications, Virginia Tech Alumni Association (540) 231-2536 - dsheldon-AT-vt.edu Http://www.VaTechAlumni.com "A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand." ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:02:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:02:24 -0800 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FBE3710.6040604-AT-sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Terence Gaffney wrote: > Dear Folks, > Here is a test on this issue. Was anybody ever successful in copywriting > the directions to such popular social dances as "The Electric Slide", "The > Bus Stop", "The Twist", "The Watusi", "THe Mashed Pototoes" and "The > Freddy"? If commercial successes like these do not have copyright > protection, then it doesn't exist for social dances. Interesting point. For a lot of those dances -- I *think* the Twist was one, though I frankly wasn't paying too much attention to popular dances at the time -- the directions consisted of a song whose lyric described how to do the dance; there was a whole raft of songs like that. (Sort of like the Hokey Pokey.) The primary reason the dances were huge commercial successes is that their popularity drove up the sales of the recorded songs that explained how to do the dances, and I don't think there's any question at all that the recordings were copyright-protected. Now that you mention it, that's probably exactly why people wrote these dance-describing songs: to assure that the dance directions were protected by copyright. As to the dances themselves, as distinct from the directions, be aware that "choreographic works" have been subject to copyright only since 1978, which is when the somewhat confusingly named Copyright Act of 1976 took effect. -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:58 -0800 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FBE38D6.1030807-AT-sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031121114206.67428.qmail-AT-web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Andy Peterson wrote: > Michael Barraclough wrote: > < If that were the case, we wouldn't get many new dances. In fact, > taken to its extreme, if I invent a new figure, eg a wazoo, if I > write that down can I copyright it and stop anyone else from using > it? Again, I am sure that the answer is no.>> > > Paul Stamler replied: > >>So am I. But my question was not whether you're precluded from > > using > >>the figure, but whether you're precluded from using my exact >>language to describe it? > > > That would make it difficult to develop an understandable description > of the dance if everyone had to use differet words to describe a > given figure. Even if you are only using one figure from some other > dance, the description needs similar in order to get the same result. My take on dance directions is that they're probably similar to recipes: if they're just a concise, bare-bones description of the dance, they're not subject to copyright protection, but if they're independently creative works, then they are. For example, leaving aside the fact that it's in public domain, Dickens's description of "Sir Roger de Coverley" in "A Christmas Carol" would certainly be subject to copyright protection, but the usual "lines advance and retire, top M and btm W advance and retire" sort of description almost certainly doesn't contain sufficient originality to qualify for protection. These "originality" cases are obviously very fact-specific and there are no bright lines or hard and fast rules, but having read a few of them, that's my prediction of how they'd come out in the area of dance notes. Here's one, just for laughs: a shampoo manufacturer, I think L'Anza, at one point tried to assert copyright protection in "lather, rinse, repeat." They lost, although top points for lawyerly creativity. (This wasn't just pure silliness; there was an actual point to this case, having to do with gray-market reimportation.) -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:07:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:06:43 -0500 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jon Berger To: ECD-AT-ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu Sent by: cc: owner-ecd-AT-ssrl04.slac.s Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA tanford.edu 21-Nov-2003 11:02 AM Please respond to ECD .... there was a whole raft of songs like that. (Sort of like the Hokey Pokey.) The primary reason the dances were huge commercial successes is that their popularity drove up the sales of the recorded songs that explained how to do the dances, ... I'm sure you must have heard, about a year ago when the man who wrote that Hokey Pokey passed away they had a horrible time trying to get him into the coffin. First they put the right foot in but everytime they started to put the left foot in.... Sorry, Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:45:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:44:57 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Sir Roger To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031121154457.A16751-AT-uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT We are doing Sir Roger de Coverley for a Dickens festival next month. I would like to find some additional information on the dance. Was there a real person by this name? If so who was he? When was the dance first done? How has the dance (and it's name?) changed over the years? In a related vein does anyone have any good pointers to lists of dances that were done in the Victorian era? What would a typical dance program look like? Did they ever do Playford dances or had they been completely forgotten? Thanks for any information. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | | jsivier-AT-uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/jsivier | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:55:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Sir Roger To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L3APYB22I498BO66-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jonathan wrote: > We are doing Sir Roger de Coverley for a Dickens festival next month. > I would like to find some additional information on the dance. Was there > a real person by this name? If so who was he? When was the dance first > done? How has the dance (and it's name?) changed over the years? http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/htbin/hypermailnh/..ECDMAILFILE/ECD?thread=Roger (or, wrapped so you'll have to put it back together) http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/htbin/hypermailnh/..ECDMAILFILE /ECD?thread=Roger will get you the extensive discussion we had on this dance and its history in 1997, which I think will helpfully answer all these questions. > In a related vein does anyone have any good pointers to lists of dances > that were done in the Victorian era? What would a typical dance program > look like? Did they ever do Playford dances or had they been completely > forgotten? The answers are different depending on a number of specifics. 1) What part of the Victorian era? Answers for 1850 different from answers for 1890. 2) What country? 3) Public ball or private ball? Urban/rural? Upper class, middle class, farmer's frolick? Bit of a dance down the pub? Kitchen junket? In the thread cited above, Beverly Francis wrote: Philip Richardson, in his _Social Dances of the 19th Century in England_ says "Before the middle of the century the increasing popularity of the Quadrille and the more intimate Waltz and the invasion of our ballrooms by the Polka swept the Country Dance off the floor. The only one that lingered and remained popular, particularly as a "finishing dance" was "Sir Roger de Coverley" and long before the end of the century even this had been relegated to Christmas and children's parties. In America, however, this particular dance survived a long time as the Virginia Reel, and here to avoid long periods of inaction the full set was divided into "Duple Minor" sets, so that all couples were dancing all the time." Richardson's description of the dance being relegated to an item for jolly parties certainly fits in with Mr. Fezziwig's ball in Dickens' _Christmas Carol_ and the other sightings in relatively "rustic" novels. I have at least one dance manual from 1865 that lists Carillon au Dunkerque, Mony Musk, Chorus Jigg, and a few other 'contry' dances, pointing out that they're unfashionable and too merry for really good society, but people _will_ insist on doing them and enjoying them so you'd better know them. And a bit from a post I made in 2000 about what private balls in upper-class homes in England may have been like in 1870: I once read aloud the chapter on balls from "The Habits of Good Society - by the Man in the Club Window" (or something close to that); I read the second edition (1870, I think). It wasn't my book, so I can't quote the good stuff, but I hope paraphrases from imperfect memory will do. Along with many other fascinating details - he prescribes precisely how many waltzes, polkas, galops and quadrilles (and you can't do Lancer's more than twice!) there should be at the ball; laments the extirpation of footwork from quadrilles; analyzes the national character of significant European nations by how they dance (the Germans are the only ones who waltz for the love of it) - we have the etiquette of breaks and supper. Supper - which is the food break in the ball at midnight, after it's been going for two or three hours, and which lasts an hour or so before dancing resumes and goes on until 4:00 am - is in a separate room from the ballroom, but on the same floor. Ladies can't go in unescorted; gentlemen are churlish if they don't escort someone in. Once in, the lady sits in a chair at table, and advises the gentlemen what she'd like from the buffet. He goes and fills a plate for her, brings it back, and then stands behind her chair while she eats it. Gentlemen are churlish if they sit and eat while any lady in the place goes unfed. They are allowed to drink some of the refreshing punch while they stand. (The punch ingredients given were fairly alcoholic; my impression was that these guys were going to be fairly well swacked by the end of supper, what with drinking and not eating. This was, I thought, borne out by the author's remarks that only a fool proposes to someone he's only seen at a ball - they seem very different in the harsh light of day.) Looking at costume, one might note that the ladies of 1873 are carrying rather more weight of clothing than the gentlemen, what with hoops, multiple petticoats, and so on. So they'd have an excuse to be more fatigued than the gentlemen, as well as being less manageable in crowded quarters (which is probably part of why the men are crowding up to the buffet on their behalf). (I think I recall that there were something like seven each of polkas and galops and only a few waltzes, but it's been quite a while. Also, by this time the quadrilles are walked, so they're not particularly fatiguing, and because quite a lot of them have extensive stretches of "heads do something long while sides just stand there" there are good opportunities to schmooze with your partner.) There's no caller at a private ball of this kind. A public ball would have a 'floor manager' (or managers), who could review the figures of a country dance if necessary, as well as managing introductions, etc, so the program could have been, probably was, somewhat different, and may have included stuff like Sicilian/Circassian Circle, Fireman's Dance, La Tempete, Virginia Reel, and other easy material. There's a lovely array of dance cards online at http://www.drawrm.com/dance.htm and if they'd only let us see the insides, they'd provide a good example of Victorian ball programs. (They do seem to let us see the inside of some of the American ones.) I'm sure I'll be corrected by at least one of my correspondents if I've gotten anything grossly wrong. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:18:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:52:27 -0800 From: Alan Ackerman Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sir Roger To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L3APYB22I498BO66-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> I could not open that page in two different browsers. I cannot even get to . Perhaps they are down for the weekend? >Jonathan wrote: > >> We are doing Sir Roger de Coverley for a Dickens festival next month. >> I would like to find some additional information on the dance. Was there >> a real person by this name? If so who was he? When was the dance first >> done? How has the dance (and it's name?) changed over the years? > >http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/htbin/hypermailnh/..ECDMAILFILE/ECD?thread=Roger >(or, wrapped so you'll have to put it back together) > >http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/htbin/hypermailnh/..ECDMAILFILE >/ECD?thread=Roger > -- Alan Ackerman, alan.ackerman-AT-earthlink.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:57:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:55:02 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Sir Roger To: Alan Ackerman CC: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L3C05IJVPW985GJL-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L3APYB22I498BO66-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Alan Ackerman wrote: > I could not open that page in two different browsers. I cannot even > get to . Perhaps they are down > for the weekend? SLAC had a scheduled off-site network connectivity outage from 8:00 am to noon Saturday (today). Your mail couldn't even be delivered to the reflector until the network outage was over. So by the time your message reached the reflector the outage was over and those URLs are available. (At least they're working for me.) > >Jonathan wrote: > > > >> We are doing Sir Roger de Coverley for a Dickens festival next month. > >> I would like to find some additional information on the dance. Was there > >> a real person by this name? If so who was he? When was the dance first > >> done? How has the dance (and it's name?) changed over the years? > > > >http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/htbin/hypermailnh/..ECDMAILFILE/ECD?thread=Roger > >(or, wrapped so you'll have to put it back together) > > > >http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/htbin/hypermailnh/..ECDMAILFILE > >/ECD?thread=Roger > > -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:11:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:10:22 -0700 From: Vickie Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Sir Roger and ECD 1867 New York To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT The following are excerpts from Brooke¹s Modern Dancing, New York, 1867 pp.44-45 SIR ROGER DE COVERLY Known In America as the VIRGINIA REEL. This dance was composed expressly for a finishing country dance about one hundred and fifty years ago, and derived its name from Addison's Sir Roger De Coverly, so frequently mentioned by him in his popular essays in the Spectator (London). Two lines are formed, the one of gentlemen, the other of ladies, each gentleman opposite to and facing his partner. The dance is commenced by the top gentleman and bottom lady, both of whom forward toward each other and back. Then the bottom gentleman and top lady do the same. The top gentleman and bottom lady forward, give right hands, both turn and back to places. The top lady and bottom gentleman do the same. The top gentleman and bottom lady do the same with left hand. The top lady and bottom gentleman do the same. The top gentleman and bottom lady do the same with both hands. The top lady and bottom gentleman do the same. The top gentleman and bottom lady dod a dos and back to places. The top lady and bottom gentleman do the same. The top gentleman gives his right hand to his partner, turns, gives his left hand to next lady, turns, gives his right hand to his partner, turns, and in the same manner through the entire line. His partner does the same, turning the gentlemen instead of the ladies. When the top gentleman and lady reach the end of the line, they galop between the lines to their original places; then the gentleman turns to the left, followed by the other gentlemen, and the lady to the right, followed by the other ladies, and all march until they arrive at the extreme end, when the gentlemen join their partners and march to their places; then the top gentleman and his lady galop between the lines and take their places at the bottom; then the second gentleman and first lady go through the same, and so on until all have led the figure. The head or top of this, as well as all other English country dances, is to the ladies' right and gentlemen's left, when facing each other. This dance can be performed by any number of persons. pp. 91- 94 COUNTRY DANCES. Country Dances, says Sir John Weaver, I take to be an imitation of the Palilia, or feast of Pales, goddess of shepherds among the Romans, which were celebrated with song and dance, among the shepherds in the fields, to drive away wolves and diseases from, their cattle, or to implore the fruitfulness of their cattle and grounds. These dances were made around heaps of burning chaff, straw, or stubble called Palea. - Weaver's Essay, p. 105. The Country Dance, much practiced among the English, was thence transplanted into almost all the courts of Europe, and it became in the most august assemblies the favorite amusement. English Country Dances are now out of vogue in fashionable assemblies. They belong to a ruder age than the present, and a blither and merrier style of manner than that which prevails in the fashionable world at present, and therefore whatever merit they possess in the estimation of the cheerful, the gay, and the light-hearted, they hold a very inferior place in the programme of a modern festivity. In illustration of this we may quote the commencement of Tom Moore's ballad called ³Country Dance and Quadrille," in which he introduces the two dames battling for victory at the King's Head Inn in a country town. The victory at last is given to Country Dance, and she has one glorious triumph in her own native air. One night the nymph called Country Dance (Whom folks of late have used so Preferring a coquette from France, That mincing thing, Mamselle Quadrille,) ³Having been chased from London down To that most humble haunt of all She used to grace - a country town - Went smiling to the New Year's ball. ³'Here, here at least!' she cried, Œthough driven From London's gay and shining tracks Though like a Peri cast from heaven I've lost, forever lost, Almack's; ³¹Though not a London Miss aive Would now for her acquaintance own me, And spinsters, e'en of forty-five, Upon their honors ne'er have known me; ³¹Here, here at least, I triumph still, And spite of some new dandy Lancers, Who vainly try to preach Quadrille, See naught but true blue Country Dancers. ³¹Here still I reign, and fresh in charms, My throne like Magna Charta raise 'Mong sturdy free born legs and arms, That scorn the threaten'd Chaine Anglaise. ³¹Twas thus she said as 'mid the din Of footmen and the town sedan, She 'lighted at the King's Head Inn, And up the stairs triumphant ran." To her astonishment, however, she there met the nymph Quadrille, with whom she had a vehement quarrel, in the true Homeric style. The victory was hers; for she proved to the girls that Country Dance was more favorable to love and marriage than Quadrille was. ³She ceased - tears fell from every Miss, She now had touch'd the true pathetic; One such authentic fact as this Is worth whole volumes theoretic ³Instant the cry was 'Country Dance,' And the maid saw with brightening face The steward of the night advance, And lead her to her birthright place. ³The fiddles which awhile had ceased Now tuned again their summons sweet; And for one happy night at least Old England's triumph was complete.'' At what precise period English Country Dancing was first introduced, is not certain. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, great rivalry seemed to exist among the teachers of dancing, which caused the introduction of a great variety of curious figures and tunes. In Waylette's Collections, a book published in the year 1749, may be found quite a number of the figures alluded to. In some of the music books of that, and even of a later period, the same figures are to be found. The following are some of the extravagant movements introduced into the figures: - brush hands - clap hands - strike hands across - snap fingers - double hands - lead about your partner - foot and elbow - beckon your purtner - strike feet against the ground - stamp four times - give three jumps - give a little jump - hold up finger - put hats over your eyes - slide out of your places - slip up - slip down - fall back and slide in - pull your partner - walk to the wall - peep three times - cast up and kiss your partner - peep down and up - hold up finger - trot half and gallop half up and down - advance four steps, nod and retire - dart with your fingers - first man go about the woman, and point your fingers - change places with one woman, and act the cobbler - cross over and act the cobbler again - the leading couple make a pass at each other - hit your right elbows together, and then your left - tum your partner till the end. In many of the Northern and Eastern States, the following are a portion of the country dances still in vogue. --- RUSTIC REEL Each gentleman has two partners; form, one trio opposite the other. Each gentleman chassez out with right hand lady opposite, and back; chassez out with the left hand lady opposite, and back; all forward and back; pass through to the next trio. --- TEMPETE Form in two lines of six or eight couples on a side. First two couples down the centre (one couple from each line), four abreast; couples part at the bottom and up abreast, and each turn around opposite the next couple that was below them on starting - four on each side - right and left - ladies chain with the same couple - balance four hands round (on each ride), same four down the centre, etc. --- MONEY MUSK First couple join right hands and swing once and a half round; go below second couple (the first lady goes below second gentleman on the outside; first gentleman at the same time goes below and between second and third ladies;) forward and back six; first couple swing three-quarters round; first gentleman goes between second couple (on the inside), first lady goes between third couple (on the inside); forward and back six; first couple swing three-quarters round to place (below one couple); right and left four --- OPERA REEL. First couple balance down the centre to the foot of the set; second couple balance down the centre to the foot of the set; four right and left at the foot; both couples up the centre; first couple down the outside, and remain at the foot. --- FORE AND AFTER, OR A STRAIGHT FOUR. Music - Charley Over the Water. Two couples stand in a direct line (partners facing each other.) All balance, straight right and left, or Highland chain, (this repeated two or three times); a lady and gentleman stop in the centre and balance; straight right and left; other couple the same; repeat at pleasure. --- POP GOES THE WEASEL. First couple down the outside, back; down the centre, back; swing three hands once and a half round with second lady, (first couple, raise their hands); second lady passes under them to place; first couple swing three hands with second gentleman, (first couple raise their hands); second gentleman passes under to place. --- CHORUS JIG. First couple. down the outside, up; down the centre, up, (cast off); swing contra corners; balance and turn to places. --- HULL'S VICTORY. DEVIL'S DREAM. LADIES' TRIUMPH. HEWITT'S FANCY. PORTLAND FANCY. TWIN SISTERS. CIRCASSIAN CIRCLE. CAMPTOWN HORNPIPE. ETC., ETC., ETC. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:28:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:21:25 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Sir Roger and ECD 1867 New York To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01L3C9LEQU5A985GJL-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT > The following are excerpts from Brooke¹s Modern Dancing, New York, 1867 > pp.44-45 > SIR ROGER DE COVERLY > Known In America as the VIRGINIA REEL. > This dance was composed expressly for a finishing country dance about one > hundred and fifty years ago, and derived its name from Addison's Sir Roger > De Coverly, so frequently mentioned by him in his popular essays in the > Spectator (London). It's worth noting that authors could be mistaken, even in 1867. As my friend James Langdell has pointed out, Addison has his Roger de Coverly as a descendant of the one for whom the dance was named, making it clear that it was considered an old dance at the time Brooke assigns to its composition. (snippage also of extremely cool stuff about country dances, especially Thomas Moore's ballad "Country Dance and Quadrille.") > The following are some of the extravagant movements introduced into the > figures: - brush hands - clap hands - strike hands across - snap fingers - > double hands - lead about your partner - foot and elbow - beckon your > purtner - strike feet against the ground - stamp four times - give three > jumps - give a little jump - hold up finger - put hats over your eyes - > slide out of your places - slip up - slip down - fall back and slide in - > pull your partner - walk to the wall - peep three times - cast up and kiss > your partner - peep down and up - hold up finger - trot half and gallop half > up and down - advance four steps, nod and retire - dart with your fingers - > first man go about the woman, and point your fingers - change places with > one woman, and act the cobbler - cross over and act the > cobbler again - the leading couple make a pass at each other - hit your > right elbows together, and then your left - tum your partner till the end. It might be a fun exercise to identify examples of each of these figures. I happen to recognize "beckon" from "My Lord Byron's Maggot" and "give three jumps" from "The Happy Clown", but I don't even know what "the leading couple make a pass at each other" means. > FORE AND AFTER, OR A STRAIGHT FOUR. > Music - Charley Over the Water. > Two couples stand in a direct line (partners facing each other.) > All balance, straight right and left, or Highland chain, (this repeated two > or three times); a lady and gentleman stop in the centre and balance; > straight right and left; other couple the same; repeat at pleasure. Very very closely related to various four-hand reels. -- Alan -- =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:09:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:05:50 -0500 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sir Roger and ECD 1867 New York To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <005401c3b166$51f50ae0$eee17ad1-AT-oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01L3C9LEQU5A985GJL-AT-SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> > > The following are some of the extravagant movements introduced into the > > figures: - brush hands - clap hands - strike hands across - snap fingers - > > double hands - lead about your partner - foot and elbow - beckon your > > purtner - strike feet against the ground - stamp four times - give three > > jumps - give a little jump - hold up finger - put hats over your eyes - > > slide out of your places - slip up - slip down - fall back and slide in - > > pull your partner - walk to the wall - peep three times - cast up and kiss > > your partner - peep down and up - hold up finger - trot half and gallop half > > up and down - advance four steps, nod and retire - dart with your fingers - > > first man go about the woman, and point your fingers - change places with > > one woman, and act the cobbler - cross over and act the > > cobbler again - the leading couple make a pass at each other - hit your > > right elbows together, and then your left - tum your partner till the end. > > It might be a fun exercise to identify examples of each of these figures. > I happen to recognize "beckon" from "My Lord Byron's Maggot" and "give three > jumps" from "The Happy Clown", but I don't even know what "the leading couple > make a pass at each other" means. > And I suppose if I were to ask how to "act the cobbler" one might call it my last question. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:54:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:49:45 -0500 (EST) From: David.Millstone-AT-valley.net (David Millstone) Subject: Re: Sir Roger To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34121649-AT-enfield.VALLEY.NET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sir Roger de Coverly has also been the subject of many articles in The American Dance Circle, the quarterly publication of the Lloyd Shaw Foundation. (It's sometimes discussed as Sir Roger, and sometimes people look at the Virginia Reel, the American version.) Lee Ticknor has three articles on the dances (December, 2000; March, 2001; and December, 2001, discussing specifically how the movements work better when the tune used is the 9/8 slip jig. I vaguely recall some of the British contributors to this list commenting to the effect of "Well, of course you use the slip jig!") Perhaps the single most useful of these three articles is the Dec. 2001 one, where he includes "both the music for Sir Roger de Coverly and dance directions derived from old sources that fit this music." Ticknor continues, "Early versions of the Roger of Coverly tune have only two four-bar phrases, such as given in the 1659 edition of _The Dancing Master_. But the dance associated with the tune in _The Dancing Master_ is far different from the Virginia reel type dance and it requires only two four-bar phrases. Apparently the tune came before the dance. It is also known as The Maultman Comes a Monday, which is said by Wilson [A Companion to the Ballroom, London, 1816] to be an ancient Scottish tune. But in Wilson, Chappell [Popular Music of Olden Time, Vol. II, London, 1859] and Howe [Elias Howe, Fifty Contra Dances, date unknown], where the Virginia Reel type dance is given, the tune has three four-bar phrases. So included herewith is the Sir Roger de Coverly tune taken from Wilson. "The dance directions are mostly taken from Chappell. The formation is a longways set of six couples, all proper. The step is a walking step or light running step, depending on the tempo. There are _three_ [Ticknor's emphasis] counts or steps per bar." Ticknor then takes us through the figures for A1 A2 B1 B2 etc. up to C6, and adds, "Repeat the dance five more times. Note that the music should be placed three times AABBCC for each sequence. For six couples, the musicians would have to play the tune 18 times. They might like to have an alternate tune. The tempo should be modest." Glen Nickerson also weighs in with an article (March, 2003) in which he describes a version (published in 1917) "in what today we would call a Becket formation." Nickerson also mentions an earlier article that he submitted to the journal (Vol. 1, #4, 1980) in which he describes Sir Roger as it was recorded in an 1821 book. Hope this helps, David ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:58:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:58:41 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyright and Social Dance Choreography in the USA To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031123085841.98285.qmail-AT-web20004.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Jon Berger wrote: > Here's one, just for laughs: a shampoo manufacturer, I think > L'Anza, at one point tried to assert copyright protection in > "lather, rinse, repeat." They lost, although top points for lawyerly > creativity. (This wasn't just pure silliness; there was an actual > point to this case, having to do with gray-market reimportation.) There also was an attempt, I think in the late 1890s, to patent the automobile, by a man who claimed he had invented it. Never mind that it was some time after Benz built his first one. I can't remember the man's name and don't have the story readily at hand. Andy in Portland __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:50:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:37:34 +0000 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Sir Roger and ECD 1867 New York To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <002301c3b212$646b1280$0500a8c0-AT-ntworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Here are some of the sources for "some of the extravagant movements": - brush hands (Ackeroyde's Pad) - put hats over your eyes (The Dumps) - trot half and gallop half up and down (Ackeroyde's Pad) - the leading couple make a pass at each other (Smith's Rant, make a pass is a fencing movement) - hit your right elbows together, and then your left (Moll Peatley The New Way) Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:50:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:15:01 -0800 From: Mary Devlin Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Sir Roger at Fezziwig's Ball To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Last night eight young actors (and some parents) came to our English country dance in Portland. They are the group performing A Christmas Carol in Corbett (a small town up the Columbia Gorge east of Portland), and they'll be dancing Sir Roger de Coverley in the Fezziwig's Ball scene. Besides dancing Sir Roger, they joined us in Holborn March, The Hop Ground, Childgrove, Our Cheers, and Indian Queen. They learned quickly and had a great time, as did all of us. Thanks to everyone for your advice and help with this project! Mary ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:51:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:38:18 -0800 From: Michael Silver Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Sacramento ECD Holiday Dance Dec. 14 To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031123233818.009f87c0-AT-mail.lanset.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT We're celebrating the holiday season at our regular "Second Sunday" dance December 14 with two special features: --A Holiday High Tea with all sorts of goodies to munch and teas to enjoy. --A special guest caller and musicians from the Bay Area. The extraordinary duo of Jon Berger and Rebecca King will be playing. Jody McGeen, just returned from England, will be calling. SUNDAY, December 14 from 2 to 5 pm Masonic Hall in old downtown Roseville 235 Vernon Street Beginners and friends welcome. For directions or information, call (916)739-8906 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:45:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:44:56 -0500 (EST) From: Terence Gaffney Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Thanksgiving party this wednesday To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Friends, Thanksgiving is coming this week, bringing with it our annual pre-Thanksgiving party dance this Wednesday at the Park Avenue Congregational Church in Arlington, Mass. Traditionally this has been the Boston Centres homecoming dance, as friends return to Boston for the holidays. If list members are in town for the holiday, join the celebration with us! Our leaders this Wednesday include Helene Cornelius, Barbara Finney, Leslie Lassetter, Robin Rodgers-Browne and Jacqueline Schwab with music by members of Bare Necessities. Directions to the hall can be found at: http://www.cds-Boston.org/pacc_dirs.html Best wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving! Terry ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:15:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:15:17 -0500 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: NYC: 1860's dance workshops Dec-Jan-Feb To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT-generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Slightly off-topic, but does include country dancing of the mid-19th century, appropriate to the recent discussion of Victorian dance. :) The Elegant Arts Society will be offering a three-part series of monthly 1860's classes this winter. These classes are entry-level and cover the basics of the most popular dances - waltz, polka, schottische, gallop - as well as some contra (country) dances and quadrille figures. Variations will be introduced as the level of the dancers permits. At the end of the series, please join us for a group excursion to the 1860's Grand Ball in Branford, Connecticut, on February 7th. Classes are held in New York City, on the first Sunday of the month (December 7, January 4, February 1), from 4:30-6:30pm. The cost is $30 for the series if pre-registered by December 5th, or $12 per class at the door. Checks for pre-registration may be made payable to The Elegant Arts Society and sent to P.O. Box 8997, New Haven, CT 06532. The location for the December 7th class is the Sandra Cameron Dance Center, 199 Lafayette Street, New York, NY. Stay tuned for our new home for 2004, coming soon... More information may be found on our website, specifically on this page: http://www.elegantarts.org/vintageclasses.html If you have further questions, or would like a set of flyers mailed to you, please email me directly. Note that for those with stamina, we also continue our regular monthly Regency classes, also first Sundays, from 1:00-4:00pm; a number of people do take both classes. Information on these may likewise be found on our website, www.elegantarts.org, and is usually posted to this list as well. Happy Thanksgiving! Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:04:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:01:29 -0500 From: sol weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [SPAM:##] Happy Thanksgiving To: solweber-AT-juno.com Message-ID: <20031126.150139.-338595.1.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT H A P P Y T H A N K S G I V I N G __ __/-AT- \ __---__ |^|^> /___ \ / \ |^|^/^/^> J \ \ / __---_ \| /^/^/^> \ \/ -' > `> / / /^> \ > > ~ ' '~_> \___ \ __ > > __ ~ ~___> \ \_ __> / ---_____> \ / \ /--' / \ / __||_ <__ _> <_/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ / \ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ \ / _ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ \ / <' ) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ / {} \ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ / \ \ / / \_ \ / \________________/ | | | | /|\ /|\ ,+*^^*+___+++_ ,*^^^^ ) _+* ^**+_ +^ _ _++*+_+++_, ) _+^^*+_ ( ,+*^ ^ \+_ ) { ) ( ,( ,_+--+--, ^) ^\ { (-AT-) } f ,( ,+-^ __*_*_ ^^\_ ^\ ) Happy {:;-/ (_+*-+^^^^^+*+*<_ _++_)_ ) ) / ( / ( ( ,___ ^*+_+* ) < < \ Thanksgiving U _/ ) *--< ) ^\-----++__) ) ) ) ( ) _(^)^^)) ) )\^^^^^))^*+/ / / ( / (_))_^)) ) ) ))^^^^^))^^^)__/ +^^ ( ,/ (^))^)) ) ) ))^^^^^^^))^^) _) *+__+* (_))^) ) ) ))^^^^^^))^^^^^)____*^ \ \_)^)_)) ))^^^^^^^^^^))^^^^) (_ ^\__^^^^^^^^^^^^))^^^^^^^) ^\___ ^\__^^^^^^))^^^^^^^^)\\ ^^^^^\uuu/^^\uuu/^^^^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\ ___) >____) >___ ^\_\_\_\_\_\_\) ^^^//\\_^^//\\_^ ^(\_\_\_\) ^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^ Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; http://roundz.tripod.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:31:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:31:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: recordings? Dr Vincent's Delight; The Hare's Maggot; Up with Aily To: ECD mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT in preparation for the philadelphia ball, ECDers in central nj are rounding up recordings for a practice session. i was surprised to discover that no-one local had recordings of "dr vincent's delight" (which is danced fairly often in the mid-atlantic region). we also don't seem to have the original tune to "up with aily". (less surprising, since "the hare's maggot" was substituted for it by, i think, C#.) does anyone know of recordings of either of those? or, for that matter, of "the hare's maggot"? - susie lorand princeton, nj, usa ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:33:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:30:36 -0800 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: recordings? Dr Vincent's Delight; The Hare's Maggot; Up with Aily To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031126132141.023c06b0-AT-popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 03:31 PM 11/26/2003 -0500, you wrote: >in preparation for the philadelphia ball, ECDers in central nj are >rounding up recordings for a practice session. > >i was surprised to discover that no-one local had recordings of "dr >vincent's delight" (which is danced fairly often in the mid-atlantic >region). > >we also don't seem to have the original tune to "up with aily". (less >surprising, since "the hare's maggot" was substituted for it by, i >think, C#.) > >does anyone know of recordings of either of those? or, for that matter, >of "the hare's maggot"? Hi Susie, Harwood Avenue Callers' Library at your service: Up with Aily & Hair's Maggott are both on the Assembly Players CD Pat Shaw's Playford. Dr. Vincent's Delight is on 2 cassettes: Optimistic Dances v.1 with Peter Jenkins, and Not Quite Playford with the West Kirby Band. Happy Thanksgiving! Much love, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 11:33:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:33:07 -0500 (EST) From: SallenNic-AT-aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hairs Maggott / Up with Aily To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1e2.1464bb72.2cf7ab73-AT-aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Susan, Our recording, Pat Shaw's Playford, on which you will find these two as Sharon has said, should be available from CDSS; however, failing that, I can send easily if you need. Nicolas Broadbridge pp The Assembly Players Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:46:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 03:41:49 -0500 From: sol weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [SPAM:#] query To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031128.034335.-412935.4.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi: I'd like to locate and contact a fellow named Robertshaw, who writes songs and is a dancer (Morris?) in the D.C. area (?) Any help? Thanks. Sol Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; http://roundz.tripod.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:51:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:50:50 -0800 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [SPAM:#] query To: ECD-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3FC8098A.7030009-AT-sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20031128.034335.-412935.4.solweber-AT-juno.com> sol weber wrote: > Hi: I'd like to locate and contact a fellow named Robertshaw, > who writes songs and is a dancer (Morris?) in the D.C. area (?) > Any help? Thanks. Try looking here: http://www.paraglyph.com/concertinas/nickr.html -- Jon Berger http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:48:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:43:25 -0500 From: sol weber Reply-To: ECD-AT-playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: [SPAM:#] Peter Debin To: ecd-AT-SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20031130.024332.-831881.4.solweber-AT-juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just heard that Peter Debin, a dancer from the past, has died. He was also a previous Pinewoods Folk Music Club Board member, and we'd like to mention him and his passing. If anyone has info about his past activities and his death, please send them to me off list (or on list if appropriate) and I'll get them to the Club. Thanks. Sol Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" 25-14 37 St, Astoria NY 11103, 718-278-4389 (after 11am) SINGERS & musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, & misc. fun items. solweber-AT-juno.com; http://roundz.tripod.com