Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 21:18:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:18:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sue Wartell <swartell-AT-
cas.org>
Subject: Country Dance Weekend in Columbus OH - October 18-20, 2002
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Country Dance event in Columbus, Ohio

Date:    Oct. 18-20, 2002

Place:    OSU Student Union Ballroom, Columbus, OH 

Musicians: Bare Necessities

Cost:     $65  (before October 4; after that, $70)

Schedule:
                                                                                       
 Friday October 18 - American Contra Dance 8-11 PM 
     
 Saturday October 19 - English Country Dance Workshops 
       9:30 AM-12 noon and 1:30-4:00 PM 
        
     English Country Dance Ball 8-11:30 PM 
       Festive attire encouraged. 

 Sunday October 20 - Engish Country Dance Workshop 
       10 AM-12:30 PM. 
     
     Scottish Country Dance 1:30-4:00 PM. 
   
Contact:  swartell-AT-
cas.org

Web site:  http://www.bigscioty.com/shaw.html   (printable 
registration form available at web site.)



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:26:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:26:40 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: roguery rebellion and email lists
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
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Since Mary Beth Goodman refers to me as a "rogue and rebel" in the context 
of a discussion about email, I thought I'd explain something in roguish and 
rebellious fashion.

For each message I send to any email list, I start afresh with the "compose" 
(or whatever it is in your email) function. I use the "reply" function only 
for  messages to individuals.

My reason is this. I have seen too many personal messages ending up on email 
lists. I don't mean mere harmless ones, such as "don't forget to pick up the 
laundry on your way home," or "you swine, if you fail to acknowledge that I 
published first, I will see your head nailed to Traitor's Gate."

Rather, I mean ones like (speaking from memory here): a married colleague 
who had just started an extramarital affair with another colleague telling 
an international list of approx 300 professional colleagues, who were 
scratching their puzzled heads in offices from New York City to Vladivostok, 
that he "wish[ed] I were with you, I love you and many kisses"; another 
colleague, unmarried this time, intending to discuss her date of the 
previous evening with a single friend, accidentally sharing the dirt with 
several hundred people (she ran into my office after realizing what she had 
done, shouting, "Quick! How do you get an email message back!"); and, oh 
well this could go on all day.

I don't know whether my method is the recommended one, but it works for me. 
I also always set email lists to "digest." So besides preventing 
embarrassments (outside of the list's collective righteous indignation which 
is the consequence of my asinine and turgidly yet incoherently expressed 
opinions, that is), my method also keeps me from sending the entire day's 
digest back to the list when I am merely trying to teach an individual the 
error of his or her ways.

Roguishly and rebelliously yrs
Steve Corrsin

Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:48:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity in it's contexts
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020903164803.9336.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
wrote:
>   
> Anyway, my actual point is that "Modern" means different things in
> different disciplines, covers eras which may not even overlap in
time with other things called "Modern", and post-Modern doesn't
describe everything that comes after "Modern" forever, but initially
meant a reaction to the "Modern" movement. 

> (A really extreme example is computer science, where "antique
> programming languages" are ones that were around in 1970s and
1980s, and "modern" ones are ones under active development

--- Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
panix.com> wrote:
>  From the standpoint of a historian (or perhaps, an Historian...)
> the term "modern" applied to European history begins circa 1500
(e.g. in the _Cambridge Modern History_, which begins with Maximilian
> Hapsburg.)

--- "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net> wrote:
> Vaguely I remember a history course in college that had Modern
> European History starting in 1815.
> 
> As a geologist, modern is post 10,000 years bp.


And then of course, anatomically modern Homo sapiens first appeared
sometime between 200,000-100,000 years ago (replacing the late
archaic type commonly known as Neanderthals), but do not appear in
Europe until around 50,000-40,000 years ago making them rather late
moderns.  Presumably they were not doing English Country Dancing of
any vintage, given that England hadn't been invented yet.


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:16:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:20:49 -0700
From: Mary Luckhardt <mary-AT-
luckhardt.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Date for Portland Ball?
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E17mIDA-0001qN-00-AT-
harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
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Can someone give me the date of the 2002 Portland Ball?  

Thanks,
Mary Luckhardt
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:49:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:50:29 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Date for Portland Ball?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020903114956.00a43ec0-AT-
mail.oz.net>
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At 11:20 AM 9/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Can someone give me the date of the 2002 Portland Ball?
>
>Thanks,
>Mary Luckhardt

Nov 2.

Victoria




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:58:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:58:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: roguery rebellion and email lists
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0209032057140.7167-100000-AT-
panix2.panix.com>
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On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:
> I don't know whether my method is the recommended one, but it works for me.
> I also always set email lists to "digest." So besides preventing
> embarrassments (outside of the list's collective righteous indignation which
> is the consequence of my asinine and turgidly yet incoherently expressed
> opinions, that is), my method also keeps me from sending the entire day's
> digest back to the list when I am merely trying to teach an individual the
> error of his or her ways.

  My experience is that it not only fails to do this (consider how many
people neglect to edit "quoted" text anyway), but results in exasperating
recipients with subject lines like "ECD Digest #666".



Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.ecben.net/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:04:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: roguery rebellion and email lists
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KM2N6JYDRCIRIBLS-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Will Linden quoted:

> On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:
> > I don't know whether my method is the recommended one, but it works for me.
> > I also always set email lists to "digest." So besides preventing
> > embarrassments (outside of the list's collective righteous indignation which
> > is the consequence of my asinine and turgidly yet incoherently expressed
> > opinions, that is), my method also keeps me from sending the entire day's
> > digest back to the list when I am merely trying to teach an individual the
> > error of his or her ways.

And wrote:

>   My experience is that it not only fails to do this (consider how many
> people neglect to edit "quoted" text anyway), but results in exasperating
> recipients with subject lines like "ECD Digest #666".

I don't see how Steve's two methods - never "reply", always "send" and 
"always take the digest" - could, taken together, produce the result of which
you complain.  Taking them separately, yes.

But I really only replied to this so I could requote Steve on his "asinine and
turgidly yet incoherently expressed opinions" and suggest that he's not giving
himself enough credit; nobody with a dictionary (or a thesaurus, for that
matter) could call his expression of his opinions "turgid."

-- Alan




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:26:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:05:02 +1000
From: Earthly Delights <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dance Database
To: "ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <B99B995F.35F3%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
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I am looking for an internet site that features lots of English Country
Dance Descriptions/Instructions. Can anyone recommend any?
Regards, Aylwen

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:31:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:32:38 +0100
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugs.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance Database
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D7635A6.CA4CF11F-AT-
ugs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <B99B995F.35F3%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>

Earthly Delights wrote:

> I am looking for an internet site that features lots of English Country
> Dance Descriptions/Instructions. Can anyone recommend any?
> Regards, Aylwen

http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/round/dances/p-index.htm
gives brief instructions for what someone (in about 1960) deemed
to be the core Playford repertoire

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:35:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 12:32:40 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Dance Database
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <003f01c25439$18383100$926d550c-AT-
paulstam>
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References: <B99B995F.35F3%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au> <3D7635A6.CA4CF11F-AT-
ugs.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugs.com>

Earthly Delights wrote:

> I am looking for an internet site that features lots of English Country
> Dance Descriptions/Instructions. Can anyone recommend any?
> Regards, Aylwen

<< http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/round/dances/p-index.htm
gives brief instructions for what someone (in about 1960) deemed
to be the core Playford repertoire >>

You also might try:

http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/dances.cgi

Peace,
Paul



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:03:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020905090304.23044.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>
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> Gene wrote:
> > Any way you can program the "Reply to:" header to contain the
> > original sender's address?

--- Alan Winston wrote:
> And the answer is: Yes, I can, but I believe that to be the wrong
> choice.
> 
> This is a discussion list, and the default choice for replies
> should be to the list.  This is a conversation being conducted in
> public; if you have a reply to the speaker on the subject it should
> be heard.  If you want to hand the speaker a note on some other
> subject or some private aspect of the current subject, you can go
> to the trouble of addressing that note yourself.

I'm on a Scandinavian Dance and Music list that is set to reply only
to the sender and I find that very frustrating and annoying for
exactly the reasons that Alan gives; group discussions get squashed
because replies never get back to the entire group. I wouldn't want
this group to be changed to only reply to the sender. All other lists
I'm on are set to reply to the group.

Andy

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 03:53:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 06:53:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Steve Corrsin
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <167.135ca2f2.2aa89199-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/9/02 3:00:51 pm, system-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
writes:

>But I really only replied to this so I could requote Steve on his "asinine
>and
>turgidly yet incoherently expressed opinions" and suggest that he's not
>giving
>himself enough credit; nobody with a dictionary (or a thesaurus, for that
>matter) could call his expression of his opinions "turgid."

Hear,hear!

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland.   <A HREF="aol://1722:chathelp">
</A>http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:20:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:10:41 +0100
From: Colin Hume <colin-AT-
colinhume.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E17nMlr-0002Cc-00.2002-09-06-18-19-52-AT-
mail17.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Theme - Teaching and Learning

The Conference was at Etching Hill, Rugeley, Staffordshire on Sunday
September 1st, 10am-4pm, and 21 people took part, coming from places
as far away as Yorkshire and Sussex.  These are my personal opinions
on the day; I'm sure other people will have seen things differently.

The theme of the conference was teaching and learning, and the idea
was to discover how we and other dancers learn.  In the morning we
experimented with some radical methods of teaching dances and
thinking about what we learnt and what was difficult or impossible!

Wendy Knight introduced the Day and said it was really going to be
experimental - none of the leaders knew quite what was going to
happen, and she hoped it would be fun and we wouldn't take it all too
seriously. Her thesis was that people learn in three main ways - by
hearing, seeing and doing.  (There are more impressive words used by
psychologists, but they mean the same thing!)  The topic first came
up in conversation with Bruce Hamilton from California, who said he
had once listed these methods and one dancer had said he didn't learn
by any of them.

Alan Davies led the first session on learning by listening.  He
pointed out that ordinary English words like "cast" and "set" are
used in a totally different context when explaining dances.  A phrase
like "Box the gnat" doesn't mean anything until it is explained, and
the command "Men look up; ladies look down" means something quite
different to a dancer.

Alan wanted to get us feeling the way a complete beginner feels at a
dance, and to this end he walked through and called a dance in pidgin
German.  In this new vocabulary there was no mention of men and
women, and the groups of four people were arranged in a "compass set"
- one at each of the four points of the compass.

I didn't find this at all difficult.  It was indeed different
terminology, but when he had described a movement I thought "That's a
turn single" and when he called the word I did a turn single.  It was
somewhat like dancing to a caller using a foreign language, but it
wasn't really like being a beginner - we all knew the figures,
whatever strange name they might have, and we all knew how to dance
in time with the music.

Wendy Knight led the second session on learning by doing the moves.
We were split into three groups, and each group learnt a three couple
longways progressive dance.  We had to blindfold another group and
walk them through the dance without any words or other sounds.  The
idea was that we would dance it with them to the music, and then they
would remove the blindfolds and dance it without any helpers.

We discussed standing behind people versus standing beside them, and
decided that we would stay behind them the whole time, except for the
circle where we would pass them around from one helper to the next.

In the walkthrough we found that the biggest problem was getting
Cyril Jones to let go of hands - once he'd been given someone's hand
he held on with a vice-like grip!  Some people were willing to walk
with their hands out and be given hands to take; some seemed very
closed up, as if unwilling to be involved at all.

When it came to dancing it to the music, we rapidly discovered that
this wasn't possible with six helpers and six blindfold people.
Instead we walked it through from each of the three positions, with
Wendy giving them the additional information that "This is the start
of the second figure", etc.

When the set danced it without the helpers, Alan Davies and Cyril
Jones were each very inventive when they were first man.  Presumably
they didn't like being in a situation where they didn't know what was
going on.  They both called the dance very confidently (and
differently, and wrongly), then waited till the music caught up for
the next turn of the dance.  I'm sure a psychoanalyst would have
drawn all sorts of interesting conclusions about the personalities
involved!

Then it was my turn to be blindfolded.  I knew I was starting facing
my partner, but not what number I was.  I decided it started with
cross and cast, and therefore I was first man, which turned out to be
correct.  After that I thought it was half figure eight up, which is
a standard start to a three couple or triple minor dance, getting the
ones proper in middle place. In fact it was cross again and cast to
the bottom - I had never realised how similar the two tracks were.  I
worked out the half poussette, but didn't realise there were actually
two half poussettes to get the ones back to the top - so I was where
I thought I should be, but hadn't got there by the path I thought I
had taken.  The next move was totally beyond me.  In fact it was
"First corners cross; second corners cross", but without any contact
I couldn't work this out.  Circle half-way and fall back was fine, as
was the final three changes at the top and one at the bottom - but
when it came to dancing it to the music I was never in the right
place to execute those moves!  I was also somewhat thrown by the fact
that the tune was a slip-jig rather than a reel or jig, so I only had
six steps for each movement rather than the expected eight.

Cyril Jones led a session on learning by listening; he called two or
three Playford-style dances without a walkthrough and without any
instrumental music, by singing the call.  This is fine with American
Squares, but I don't like it at all with Playford or traditional
style dances.  I wasn't convinced that I learnt anything from this;
it just confirmed my prejudices!

The next session was learning purely visually.  Alan Davies, Ruth
Allmayer, Graham and Wendy Knight showed us a two couple Playford
-style dance with four figures.  They danced it up to speed, then to
a very slow tune, then up to speed again, while we all watched with
intense concentration.  Then we had to dance it.  My set did fairly
well - I didn't have time to see what any of the other sets were
doing.  There were the three Playford introductions to cling on to,
plus a fourth introduction of falling back on the diagonals and
coming forward, but each started with a step and honour, and you had
to remember who to honour, then do the introduction with the other
person, then reverse it.  Wendy had done a brilliant job of writing
the dance, and explained her philosophy afterwards.  The first figure
was reasonably straightforward, with leads and gates.  The second was
a half double figure eight and a handy-hand turn one and a half, then
the same again from new positions.  It flowed beautifully, but you
had to recognise what was going on before you had any chance of
reproducing it.  Perhaps because I'm a dance writer, I'm aware of the
whole shape of a dance - I don't just see it as a random collection
of figures.  I'm sure there are dancers who don't see the shape at
all, just blindly follow the caller's instructions, and they would
not have had a chance.  You also had to see where people started and
finished each movement, to be aware that the turns were one and a
half, and not just once around.  The third figure was deliberately
indescribable - I watched it all three times thinking "What on earth
is going on here?" and we didn't dance it at all well; the most you
could say was that we all got back to our starting position.  And the
final figure was not so bad.  The whole thing reminded me of the
first time I watched a display team dancing Kimberley Smith's
beautiful dance "The Merifest Central Square".  I was sitting with
Pat Skelton, who also writes complex dances, and we both said we
really hadn't worked out what was happening at all and certainly
couldn't go away and write it down!

Wendy's dance brought home to me the fact that in order to remember
something you have to give it a name, or a series of names.  If you'd
never danced a half double figure of eight before, you would have
found it impossible to memorise the second figure.

The dance is called "With GUSTO", and the instructions are with this
report on the GUSTO web site at
http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/conf2.htm in case you would like
to try it out.

Wendy led the next session which was again visual, this time asking
us to reconstruct an old dance printed in (simplified) Feuillet
notation, which was used in some books of French and English country
dances in the eighteenth century and indeed for figured minuets and
many other dances.  I've had some experience of studying this so I
didn't have much problem, though I still got one figure wrong because
I hadn't looked closely enough at the diagram.  It was interesting to
see different people's attitudes to this one.  Philip Price was a
less experienced dancer than most of the others present, and he said
he found it much easier to study the notation than to watch people
demonstrating the dance.  Madeleine Smith said she was greatly helped
by having the music for the dance playing while we were studying the
notation, whereas to me it was an unnecessary distraction.  Some
groups needed to stand up and walk everything through, whereas I
could see the dance just by looking at the paper.  Maybe that's
because I'm a dance writer, but I remember a workshop at a festival
where we were asked to work out dances from Playford's original
wording, and I found that David and Kathryn Wright also needed to
walk things through.

The conclusion is surely that as callers and teachers we need to be
able to explain the dances in different ways, rather than assuming
that our preferred method of learning is the "right" one and other
people should think in the same way.  Also, people may have a
preferred style of learning but also pick up clues using other
styles.  I've heard of someone who taught "Dutch Crossing" by first
drawing diagrams on a flip-chart, and some people obviously found
this helpful.  Ian McFarlane made the point that it takes him several
weeks of observing new dancers to work out how they learn.

The afternoon sessions focused on Progression - not the ones moving
down and the twos moving up, as I had assumed, but the idea that
workshops should be at different levels with a logical progression
-that's the "Structured" in "Grand Union Structured Training
Organisation".  Otherwise you can go to festivals and take a workshop
at the same level each time, without being given a chance to develop
further.

Val McFarlane showed us the sort of session she runs for people with
learning disabilities.  She reiterated that people have a preferred
style of learning, and also pointed out that movement stimulates the
brain, so she includes some dancing in every lesson she gives.  She
finds that people learn a lot by watching the other dancers, and are
very willing to help each other; the idea is "to enable our set to do
the dance".  She calls at a club for those with hearing impairment,
and she starts with a group of helpers demonstrating the dance.  Then
the helpers distribute themselves among the various sets, Val and Ian
give verbal instructions, and the helpers translate these into sign
language.  Whole families come along to support their hearing
-impaired member.

She started our session by explaining that we would do three dances
involving stars, and drew some simple diagrams on a whiteboard to
illustrate this.  She stuck red spots on the right hand of people who
felt they might have difficulties telling right from left - this
appeared to be most of the room - and started with a dance in a
circle.  This is ideal because the dancers can see each other and the
leader can see everyone. She also emphasised that this was a sociable
dance, since we changed partners every time.  The second was a
Sicilian circle - Ron Coxall's "How do you do".  The third, if she
had had time, would have been John Wood's "Crosses and Noughts".

It's always difficult calling to experienced dancers who are
pretending they are much less experienced, but people entered into
the spirit of the thing and we all felt that if we really had
learning difficulties Val would be our preferred teacher.

Madeleine Smith taught a session on Tension.  Again I had
misunderstood the topic in the publicity - it was about Giving
Weight, not the mental stresses and strains of dancing or calling.
She explained that in many movements - turns, stars, baskets,
swinging - we are dependent on other people for our enjoyment, and
giving weight is an important part of this. She taught turns (right
-hand, left-hand, two-hand, reverse two-hand) in a circle, and then
moved on to a Sicilian circle for circles and stars.  If it's circle
left and then circle right, people can get away with not giving
weight because the circles don't have to go all the way round, so she
put in a do-si-do after each circle or star.  You need reasonably
simple dances, so that people don't get bogged down in the figures.
A promenade is another move where people need to give weight, and
it's always useful to reverse roles so that the men find out what
it's like to be expected to scurry around on the outside without any
support.  She recommended some dances for giving weight, without
having the necessary time to do them all. "The Rifleman" is a good
test of giving weight in the promenade and also in the North Country
ladies chain - if the men don't help the ladies it becomes very
unsatisfactory.  Incidentally, I was amazed at how few people
actually knew the dance - our traditional dances seem to be an
endangered species.  We danced Pat Shaw's classic "Margaret's Waltz",
which again several people seemed not to know.  Brian Wedgbury's
"Dunham Oaks" has a circle and a star which have to go round all the
way, and I've seen people go wrong many times because of this.  Cecil
Sharp's interpretation of "Jacob Hall's Jig" has some very quick
turns, where again giving weight is essential.

Finally Barbara Kinsman gave a masterclass on the same sort of
material, this time aimed at experienced dancers.  She pointed out
that it is possible to have the right tension even between a very
tall and a very short person, and that in a really good group you can
feel that in the simple "lines forward and back" you are all moving
as one line - it can be very satisfying.  The same is true of a
slipped circle, but it's much harder to achieve with a walk or skip
-change step.  She finds that even if people are tired, there are
some dances such as "Wakefield Hunt" where the dancers alway slip the
circle - the music drives them and they can't help themselves.  A
back-to-back is not a physically connected movement, but the tension
is still there between the two dancers as they work together,
particularly at the anacrusis before the fall back.  I would make the
same point about a Hole-in-the-Wall cross.  Barbara said that in a
real masterclass she would start with Fried Merman's "Chocolate Round
O", which Fried refers to as her weight-giving dance.

Again there was not time to develop the session into a real
masterclass, but the idea was to show the people attending how you
would go about running classes at each of the three levels, and I'm
sure this objective was achieved.

In the final discussion Wendy said that it was important to have
objectives for a workshop, and for people to be able to decide
whether these had been achieved.  We talked about the problem of
making the level clear to potential attendees, and the perils of
people grading themselves.

I can't think of any other organisation in the country which would
have put on these workshops.  I suspect many "experienced" dancers
would have been totally baffled by the proceedings and thought it a
pointless exercise, but I'm sure the people attending didn't think
that at all.

The next conference will be on Sunday April 13th 2003 in Kent, on the
theme of Assessing your dancers.  The one after that will probably
again be at Etching Hill, on Sunday August 31th 2003.  Wendy is
considering a theme of "The tingle factor", but is open to other
suggestions.  Each conference will be preceded by a Dance on the
Saturday evening.  If you would like to come to both the Saturday
Dance and the Sunday Conference we can also give details of Bed and
Breakfast accommodation.

Colin Hume

Email colin-AT-
colinhume.com      Web site http://www.colinhume.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:38:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:40:42 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b99eed68d79b-AT-
[140.186.55.20]>
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References: <E17nMlr-0002Cc-00.2002-09-06-18-19-52-AT-
mail17.svr.pol.co.uk>

Wow.  Thanks so much, Colin, for this wonderful and thoroughly 
interesting report. 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:36:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 07:35:38 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000801c25638$c8cf95c0$b34086d9-AT-
default>
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Very interesting reading - I feel as though I was there!!
Alan Corkett


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:34:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Pearl <daniel_pearl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance Database
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020907153444.44418.qmail-AT-
web12304.mail.yahoo.com>
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The NEFFA LinkFest to the rescue!

http://www.neffa.org/~neffa/Top/Folk_Dancing/English_Country_Dance/Dance_Sequences/index.shtml


__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:02:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Andersen <cdw_ecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020907170216.95715.qmail-AT-
web12203.mail.yahoo.com>
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In his wonderful report on the GUSTO Conference, Colin
wrote:

 > Barbara said that in a real masterclass
 > she would start with Fried Merman's
 > "Chocolate Round O" . . .

Is that the one who's related to Ethel Herman?

Even though he made 'de Metz' of it, what a delicious
typo!

Carl [speaking this time only for himself, not C.D.W.]


=====
Carl E. Andersen, C.D.W. Herald
* This information about Country Dancers of Westchester is sent to you because we believe you are interested in knowing about our activities. If you prefer not to receive future notices, please reply asking to be removed from our list of addressees. Know anyone who'd like to receive these notices? Send us their e-mail addresses! *

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Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:10:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:17:46 -0700
From: Ric Goldman <timelord-AT-
rgoldman.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Possible ECD gig, Sacramento, 9/21
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <NCBBKEFLBLMHAGLCIJMKEEMKHCAA.timelord-AT-
rgoldman.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Folks,

As Alan requested...

It looks like I've gotten this gig, subject to my meeting their band.
FWIW, it's grown way past ECD to include some Irish, Ceilidh, and Morris
(again based on what the band is capable of).  <Whew!>

Thanx, Ric Goldman
timelord-AT-
rgoldman.org
http://connect.to/ric

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ecd-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Winston -
> SSRL Central Computing
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:43 AM
> To: ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Subject: Possible ECD gig, Sacramento, 9/21
>
>
>
> ECDers --
>
> I received the following note.  I know nothing more about
> this gig than is
> included in the note; it will avail nothing to ask me about
> it.  (I am busy
> that weekend so not even considering taking this myself.)
>
> Here's the note:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> I am the maid of honor for a September (21st - Harvest Moon)
> bride holding a
> Renaissance style wedding out of doors in Sacramento.  Much
> of the wedding has
> been hand-made (the beer, the mead, my dress, her dress) and
> we are currently
> polishing the tankards!  We would love to have someone there
> to lead English
> Country Dancing.  I know this is late notice, but could you
> point us in a
> direction?
>
> Thanks,
> Amy Seiwert
> aseiwert-AT-
speakeasy.net
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
>
> If you can help Amy out, please write to her directly (and cc
> me so I know
> what's going on).  It sounds as though they might want
> RenFaire-style ECD,
> so this might be appropriate for Pryanksters/Helena/Bruno.
> If you get the gig,
> write back to the list so other people know not to bother.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Alan
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL
> Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo
> Park CA   94025
> ==============================================================
> =================
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:40:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:36:51 +0100
From: Colin Hume <colin-AT-
colinhume.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Wednesday Workshops in London
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E17osgz-0005k4-00.2002-09-10-22-37-05-AT-
mail17.svr.pol.co.uk>
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I'm running a series of dance workshops on the second and fourth
Wednesdays of each month, starting October 23rd, in the Kennedy Hall
at Cecil Sharp House in London.  Music will be provided by a new
young band, The Whirligigs, consisting of Daniel Hollingshurst and
Caroline Wright.  Wednesday Workshops are aimed at good dancers who
like to tackle some more complicated material and would welcome the
chance to improve their Dance Technique.  If you think that sounds
like you, why not come along.  If you want more information, don't
contact me - I'll be in the States from September 12th to October
11th.  Email Judith Hanson on Judith.A.Hanson-AT-
btopenworld.com

Colin Hume


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:11:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:11:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Andersen <cdw_ecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: First Fling
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020912131124.88395.qmail-AT-
web12204.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear Dance Friends,

Please join us for "First Fling," the inaugural dance
party of Country Dancers of Westchester's 2002-2003
season. It's this Saturday, September 14, at Church in
the Highlands on Bryant Ave. in White Plains, NY.
Dancing begins at 8pm.
 
MCs for the event are Fried Herman, Carol Martinez,
and Paul Ross; music by Norma Castle, Sue Polansky,
and Robin Russell.

Admission is $12.00. CDW members pay $10.00. Annual
membership in CDW costs $12.00, and the membership
year is just now beginning. An application is
available online . . .
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/2225/membapp02.htm

A dance event, "Autumn Enters," is set for Saturday,
September 28. Judi Rivkin will emcee with music
provided by The Flying Romanos - Robin Russell, Marnen
Laibow-Koser, and Norma Castle.
 
Directions to the Church in the Highlands are
available at the CDW website:
 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2225/
 
For more information, call Susan at 914/762-8619 or
Leah at 914/693-5577.


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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:08:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Annette Kirk <akirk200-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020912190829.29211.qmail-AT-
web11708.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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What is the acceptable style for going from a
left-hand star into a right-hand star? I see some
dancers do what they call a "flourish" turn in between
stars.  

=====
Annette Kirk
23 Jefferson Ave
Northport NY 11768
631-757-3627

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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:27:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:38:20 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFD34C04A8.8FD3DEA2-ON85256C32.006B21B2-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
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This flourish--turning outward in preparation for return, rather than
inward--is exactly what Fried Herman has in mind when she denounces
"twiddling." You could do it, of course, but if Fried catches you, she may
snarl your name from the microphone.
This would hold true going from left-hand to right-hand or right-hand to
left-hand, and I wonder a little why the question has arisen in the former
case only.

A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
most are careful to use the ECD term first.

I don't see any thing wrong with some forms of ornamentation--and I'd be
surprised if dancers didnt' "ornament" dances ca. 1650-ca. 1800--but this
particular ornament, at least nowadays, has a contra flavor (like the word
"star")--so it may not be a good choice for English Country Dance except as
a joke.



Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."





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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:30:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEW5RYYVO8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Annette Kirk wrote:

> What is the acceptable style for going from a
> left-hand star into a right-hand star? I see some
> dancers do what they call a "flourish" turn in between
> stars.

I think this is your first post on the ECD list.  Welcome!

There is at present no official definition of acceptable style for ECD, so
the answer you're asking for is more or less a consensus of practitioners.
Acceptable style is usually very clean - devoid of extra twirls, etc.

In most cases the transition seen is from a right-hand star to a left-hand
star.  While I'm sure there are some, I can't offhand think of any left->right
transitions that don't also involve changing sets, in which case extra turns
are definitely not a feature.

In right->left transitions, the default behavior I've always seen is to turn in
180 degrees. In "Morpeth Rant", the explicit instruction is to turn _out_; this
confirms that the default is to turn in.  

I've never heard the term "flourish turn".

I'd be inclined to suspect that the dancers who do that are importing it from
some other dance form, or from some isolated implementation of ECD (eg,
performance team that learned it from a book).

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:43:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEWLXKQXQ8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Graham  wrote:

> This flourish--turning outward in preparation for return, rather than
> inward--is exactly what Fried Herman has in mind when she denounces
> "twiddling." You could do it, of course, but if Fried catches you, she may
> snarl your name from the microphone.
> This would hold true going from left-hand to right-hand or right-hand to
> left-hand, and I wonder a little why the question has arisen in the former
> case only.

> A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
> English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
> Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
> most are careful to use the ECD term first.

Hmmm.  As a person involved with computers, pronounce "*.*"
(I always read that as "star dot star".)

Am I to believe that Fried pronounces LH* as "Left Hands Across"?  Her notation
uses that abbreviation, which I've always read as "star".

I pretty much gave up on saying "Hands Across" when I realized that
experienced people and newcomers alike knew what I meant when I said "star" and
didn't when I said "Hands Across."  Even experienced dancers here wanted to
know "across what?  with who?"  Occasionally if you get a first-timer who's
been contra-dancing you need to fix the wrist-grip hold, but otherwise - well,
calling it "Hands Across" changes a figure they already know into one you have
to teach, and to what good purpose?  (There's a good purpose in "back to back"
instead of "dosido"; "dosido" invites contra people to twirl and then you have
to tell them not to, which isn't particularly welcoming; "dosido" or things
that sound like it are also overloaded with meanings for square dancers.) 

> I don't see any thing wrong with some forms of ornamentation--and I'd be
> surprised if dancers didnt' "ornament" dances ca. 1650-ca. 1800--but this
> particular ornament, at least nowadays, has a contra flavor (like the word
> "star")--so it may not be a good choice for English Country Dance except as
> a joke.

Or when explicitly called for in the instructions for that dance.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:49:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:46:05 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020912144247.00a8bec0-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
>English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
>Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
>most are careful to use the ECD term first.

And as such, to me if taught as a "star"  it is a pack-saddle or wrist grip 
rather than the "hand-shake" hands across

The various terminology, to me, tends to suggest the kind of style that the 
caller in seeking and I "generally" try to follow that teaching (at least 
for while!!)

Yes, I teach hands across and "then" prompt with "star"

Similarly, we can begin a discussion of "hey" versus "reel"!!!

Mike



Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail 
notification list
         <mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net%3E>"Mike 
- remove me from MECD"<mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>

Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing

The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM.

Dancing
         October through May at the Wilmar Center,
                 <http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif>953 
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin
         June through September in front of Memorial Library,
                 <http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif>University 
of Wisconsin-Madison
For more information, contact
         Mike (mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),
         Jean (608-231-1040) or
         Don (608-238-9951)
Website
images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm
no images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm

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<html>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=3><br>
A different, but related, style point: &quot;star&quot; is (to me) a
contra term. The<br>
English Country Dance term is &quot;right hands across&quot; or
&quot;left hands across.&quot;<br>
Some callers use &quot;star&quot; as a prompting shorthand *after*
teaching it--but<br>
most are careful to use the ECD term first.</blockquote><br>
And as such, to me if taught as a &quot;star&quot;&nbsp; it is a
pack-saddle or wrist grip rather than the &quot;hand-shake&quot; hands
across<br><br>
The various terminology, to me, tends to suggest the kind of style that
the caller in seeking and I &quot;generally&quot; try to follow that
teaching (at least for while!!)<br><br>
Yes, I teach hands across and &quot;then&quot; prompt with
&quot;star&quot;<br><br>
Similarly, we can begin a discussion of &quot;hey&quot; versus
&quot;reel&quot;!!!<br><br>
Mike<br><br>
<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail
notification list<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab></font><a href="mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net%3E"><font size=3 color="#00FF00">&quot;Mike
- remove me from MECD&quot;&lt;mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net&gt;<br><br>
</a></i></font><font size=3><b>Madison Wisconsin English Country
Dancing<br><br>
</b><i>The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets<br>
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Dancing <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>October
through May at the Wilmar Center, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif">953
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin</a><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>June
through September in front of Memorial Library, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif">University
of Wisconsin-Madison</a><br>
For more information, contact<br>
</i><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><i>Mike
(mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Jean
(608-231-1040) or <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Don
(608-238-9951)<br>
</i>Website <br>
images<br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm</a><br>
</b>no images<br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm</a><br>
</font></b></html>

--Boundary_(ID_NZgZMWLpgVPcHgbwLW5amA)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:59:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:59:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209121554480.75262-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, M.G. Mudrey, Jr. wrote (in reply to Graham & Alan):

> And as such, to me if taught as a "star"  it is a pack-saddle or wrist grip
> rather than the "hand-shake" hands across

I distinctly remember Ralph Page commenting, after he switched his cigar
to the other side of his mouth to empasize the point, that the wrist-grip
was adopted by New England square and contra dancers after they had seen
the Lithuanian dancers using it during one of the first NEFFA Folk festivals.

Makes you wonder where some of our "traditional" English country dance
movements came from, doesn't it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:00:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEX6WCE9Y8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Mike wrote:

> >A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
> >English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
> >Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
> >most are careful to use the ECD term first.

> And as such, to me if taught as a "star"  it is a pack-saddle or wrist grip
> rather than the "hand-shake" hands across

But that pack-saddle grip has only been in place in American dance since 
1948 or thereabouts (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance
display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was
cool, and picked it up.

> Similarly, we can begin a discussion of "hey" versus "reel"!

Which, if historically informed, will be even more confusing.  (Contra
invariably says "hey" these days; Early American dancers did three-hand,
four-hand, and six-hand reels; Playford has "hey" (or variant spellings);
Dorset has a four-hand reel; etcetera, etcetera.)

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:06:59 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020912150550.00a7b0f0-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
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>But that pack-saddle grip has only been in place in American dance since 
>1948 or thereabouts (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance
>display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was
>cool, and picked it up.


And in some German dances I have learned it as a backward pack saddle grip 
rather than the frontward grip!

Mike

M.G. Mudrey, Jr.
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey
University of Wisconsin-Extension
3817 Mineral Point Road
Madison, WI 53705-5100
USA

Voice: 608-263-5495
Fax:    608-262-8086
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu

Survey Web Site: http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/

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<html>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=3>But that pack-saddle
grip has only been in place in American dance since 1948 or thereabouts
(according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance<br>
display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it
was<br>
cool, and picked it up.</blockquote><br><br>
And in some German dances I have learned it as a backward pack saddle
grip rather than the frontward grip!<br><br>
Mike<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.<br>
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey<br>
University of Wisconsin-Extension <br>
3817 Mineral Point Road<br>
Madison, WI 53705-5100<br>
USA<br><br>
Voice: 608-263-5495<br>
Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 608-262-8086<br>
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu<br><br>
Survey Web Site:
<a href="http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/" eudora="autourl">http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/</a><br>
</font></i></html>

--Boundary_(ID_ofPvUsWsF+kMDP/jhWdzMQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:14:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:12:39 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF51DE9560.B94CC034-ON85256C32.006E6C01-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
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[To Alan, over Annette's head]:
Hmmm.
Strictly speaking, this: *
is an asterisk, not a star.
So, when I come across LH*, I don't pronounce it "Left-hand star." I just
say, "Bleaah!"
I don't remember what Fried *says* with the words of her mouth in these
cases, and I'm not certain she's consistent. But I am sure she
*disapproves* of the contra-ish turn-outward, whatever her terminology.
Plus, I tend to *explain* "right hands across" to new dancers from scratch
("Extend your right hand to your diagonal...") just so I don't get
wrist-grips, in the same way you resist "dosido" for "back to back."
[To Annette, over Alan's head]:
And you thought this was a simple question! Well, perhaps it is...
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:19:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:21:17 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, eceilidh-AT-
netservs.com, allceilidh-AT-
yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <200209122021.VAA18970-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>
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Since all the various flavours of dance (ECD, (M)ECD, COntra etc started their life over on this side of the pond it may be of interest for you to know what happens in the UK.  

Generally speaking (of course there will be exceptions) the term star is used irrespective of whether it is Playford, contra, traditional, modern, etc.  Star also means the opposite pairs holding hands and not as in modern american contra taking a wrist grip (which we tend to call a millwheel).  Use of the term hands across would probably be considered old fashioned.

There is considerable debate about whether one should turn out and/or clap in Morpeth Rant and other dances.  Because this was stated in the publication of Morpeth Rant it has been assumed that Morpeth Rant was an exception.  This is wrong.  If you look at the field notes of those who collected social dance in the North of England (Q1 C20) you will find that each village had its own tradition.  Thus in village X, all dances with a right and left hand star would be done with a clap and a turn out, in village Y there would be no clap but a turn out etc.  Because the EFDSS only published the odd dance from a village this never became apparent.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:25:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEY36X99E8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael Barraclough wrote:

> Since all the various flavours of dance (ECD, (M)ECD, COntra etc started
> their life over on this side of the pond it may be of interest for you to know
> what happens in the UK.

Yes, thank you.

> Generally speaking (of course there will be exceptions) the term star is used
> irrespective of whether it is Playford, contra, traditional, modern, etc.  Star
> also means the opposite pairs holding hands and not as in modern american
> contra taking a wrist grip (which we tend to call a millwheel).  

Interestingly, some 19th century American dance manuals use "mill" or
"moulinet" for what I must assume is the handshake star.  So this usage has 
evolved a bit.



> There is considerable debate about whether one should turn out and/or clap in
>Morpeth Rant and other dances.  Because this was stated in the publication of
>Morpeth Rant it has been assumed that Morpeth Rant was an exception.  This is
>wrong.  If you look at the field notes of those who collected social dance in
>the North of England (Q1 C20) you will find that each village had its own
>tradition.  Thus in village X, all dances with a right and left hand star would
>be done with a clap and a turn out, in village Y there would be no clap but a
>turn out etc.  Because the EFDSS only published the odd dance from a village
>this never became apparent.

As one who stated the assumption you mention here, I thank you for this
clarification.

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:32:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:34:00 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "Pack-saddle grip"...
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF580D34BD.FA254007-ON85256C32.0070C534-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As a high-spirited thoroughbred, I resist all attempts to throw
pack-saddles over me as a matter of policy. From *either* direction.
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:34:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:34:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Annette Kirk <akirk200-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020912203418.8428.qmail-AT-
web11702.mail.yahoo.com>
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Thanks to all who replied to my "simple" question.
BTW, I meant either way star-switch: L to R; or R to
L. 

Yes, Alan is correct. The group I dance with comes out
of contra and American & international folkdancing.
Uh-oh...hope I didn't start a thread on why I didn't
include American in "international." 

We are a new group on Long Island and really
appreciate your help. Our closest ECD is 50 miles away
in NYC and is difficult to get to at 7 pm midweek so
I'll be calling on your experience again. And again.


=====
Annette Kirk
23 Jefferson Ave
Northport NY 11768
631-757-3627

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:42:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:42:22 -0400
From: eba-AT-
umich.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Picky, picky...(was Re: Style Question..)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <26852093.1031848942-AT-
OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu>
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--On Thursday, September 12, 2002 4:12 PM -0400 
Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:

> Strictly speaking, this: *
> is an asterisk, not a star.

It is true that it is an asterisk, but it is not true that it is not a 
star, because an asterisk is a specific kind of star, and having its own 
name doesn't remove it from the more general class of objects called 
"star".  It is even implicit in that more specific name (as I'm sure you 
also know) asterisk = "little star" from its Greek origins.

As a word which is easily acquired into dance vocabularly on the basis of 
what suggests as a dance figure, it seems quite reasonable; differences in 
style affect far more than individual figures and it doesn't seem to me 
that it is really associated with a particular style.

The use of "mill" for the same figure in several European languages also is 
a powerful one since in includes the notation of the rotating figure, but 
that usage in English never got well established so far as I know and 
doesn't seem quite as intuitive (perhaps because we're not as accustomed to 
seeing mills in our landscape).  But real stars don't have prongs like our 
images of them do, either.

Eric Arnold
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:18:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:17:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200209122117.g8CLHxG01978-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes:
> 
> I pretty much gave up on saying "Hands Across" when I realized that
> experienced people and newcomers alike knew what I meant when I said "star" and
> didn't when I said "Hands Across."  Even experienced dancers here wanted to
> know "across what?  with who?"  Occasionally if you get a first-timer who's
> been contra-dancing you need to fix the wrist-grip hold, but otherwise - well,
> calling it "Hands Across" changes a figure they already know into one you have
> to teach, and to what good purpose?  (There's a good purpose in "back to back"
> instead of "dosido"; "dosido" invites contra people to twirl and then you have
> to tell them not to, which isn't particularly welcoming; "dosido" or things
> that sound like it are also overloaded with meanings for square dancers.) 

   Just to muddy the waters, so to speak, Jane Hobgood, who co-leads the
Central Illinois English Country Dancers with me, refers to stars/hands-across
as "mills".  That is Cumberland Reel begins with the top 2 couples doing a
right hand mill followed by a left hand mill.  She learned ECD in the 40's
and 50's, so perhaps there has been some changes in terminology over the
years.  I generally use "hand across" in ECD and "star" in contra, just
to help distinguish the two.  In the same way I would say "right and left
through" if calling contra and "2 changes of rights and lefts" in ECD.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:20:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:20:39 +0000 (US/Eastern)
From: Christine Robb <cedar-AT-
interlog.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <E17pcKF-0005se-00-AT-
app6.nasc.inter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but usually find the 
answer before I can hit 'send'.  I came across another example
the other night, and am trying *not* to think of a solution, so I 
can finally click that button.

I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use 
more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with 
much on the spot.  It's a dance for four couples in a square.  
The figure that gave me trouble was "head men cross, then 
head women cross".

Other examples might be the first man starting out in
The Bishop, or having all the men go into the center in a circle
or square.

What are some tips and tricks people use for various 
situations?  I've seen mentions of first and second corners,
right and left diagonals, references to geographical proximity 
to features of the room, and so forth.  Are there others that
people have found useful, particularly ones that don't require
mapping out the dancers' tracks in advance?  I'm usually
working on the fly, and have no idea of what dances I might
choose in advance.

I'm particularly looking for terms which are intuitive, so the
dancers don't have to stop and think, or look around the
room, and also for terms which are concise enough to use
while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
assigning yet more numbers or names).


Thanks,

Christine

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:40:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:39:42 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Alan writes:
>Which, if historically informed, will be even more confusing.  (Contra 
>invariably says "hey" these days; Early American dancers did three-hand,
>four-hand, and six-hand reels; Playford has "hey" (or variant spellings);  
>Dorset has a four-hand reel; etcetera, etcetera.) 

*unhelpfully*

There are 19thc reels which don't involve heys at all.

Susan
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:49:03 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
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Alan writes:
>(There's a good purpose in "back to back"
>instead of "dosido"; "dosido" invites contra people to twirl and then you have

>to tell them not to, which isn't particularly welcoming; 

Two things....

1. there's a reasonable chance that "turn back to back" is a 
different move from "back to back"/"dosido" in the earliest
Playford dances.  Colin Hume and I arrive at pretty close to
the same conclusion about it, and he conveniently wrote it
up in "Playford with a Difference".  I have notes that will
someday be a writeup from a slightly different angle.

2. if by "twirl" you mean to go back to back halfway then sort
of turn single as you do the other half (back to place....I'm
not explaining this well) then that is a legit 19thc variation.
I'd have to look to see if it crossed the water, but it was 
at least in one quadrille manual from 1822 (Strathy, Edinburgh).
I suppose it could be considered appropriate for only a Scottish
interpretation of a French country dance.

3. (okay, three things) Just to complicate matters, several sources
for "Sir Roger de Coverley" use "allemande" as the term for the move
in the dance which is "dosido" in other manuals.  It's unclear 
whether they mean to do a different sort of allemande or whether Wilson
was actually on to something when he diagrammed and described the
allemande as a dosido.

Kazoom.  :)

Susan
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:54:08 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Picky, picky...(was Re: Style Question..)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <OF51DE9560.B94CC034-ON85256C32.006E6C01-AT-
risk.sungard.com> <26852093.1031848942-AT-
OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu>

I am, for some reason, reminded of the following piece of doggerel:

  Mary's little lamb
  upon the grass did frisk.
  But Mary was afraid
  her little *

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:14:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Susan wrote:

> 1. there's a reasonable chance that "turn back to back" is a
> different move from "back to back"/"dosido" in the earliest
> Playford dances.  Colin Hume and I arrive at pretty close to
> the same conclusion about it, and he conveniently wrote it
> up in "Playford with a Difference".  I have notes that will
> someday be a writeup from a slightly different angle.

I'll have to look that up.

> 2. if by "twirl" you mean to go back to back halfway then sort
> of turn single as you do the other half (back to place....I'm
> not explaining this well) then that is a legit 19thc variation.

Nope, not what I mean.  Modern contra dancers often (in do-si-do and sometimes 
in gypsy, which blurs all distinction between the two figures) rotate like a
gyroscope upon their own axis as they orbit the other person, achieving eye
contact only in brief flashes.  (Many also do this during  heys.)

> 3. (okay, three things) Just to complicate matters, several sources
> for "Sir Roger de Coverley" use "allemande" as the term for the move
> in the dance which is "dosido" in other manuals.  It's unclear
> whether they mean to do a different sort of allemande or whether Wilson
> was actually on to something when he diagrammed and described the
> allemande as a dosido.

Oy, allemande - possibly the most overloaded (in the computer language sense)
word in the country/folk dance lexicon.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:41:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:39:58 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> I'm particularly looking for terms which are intuitive, so the
> dancers don't have to stop and think, or look around the
> room, and also for terms which are concise enough to use
> while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
> segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
> assigning yet more numbers or names).

A comment from the floor:
when I attend a dance with gender-reference-free teaching, I generally
find it so seamless that I don't even _notice_, unless I think about it,
that GRF is being used.  I'm sure some of those teachers will chime in
with tips for you--I just wanted to say that they do it so _well_, that
I don't have to stop and think.  I just dance.

Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never remember if I'm a
"moon" or a "star".....

--Deb
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:44:01 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Picky, picky...(was Re: Style Question..)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Then I suppose that


~    is Sharp siding on its side
^     is Fried's chevron siding
|      is Shaw siding
A    is Aluminum siding
V    is vinyl siding.
?      is indeterminant siding


*     is a little star

*   is a big star

=     is lines forward and back...

Great...we are now back to cryptic notation!

mm



--Boundary_(ID_hB2WaZ03bfrZ21vINvW4LA)
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<html>
<font size=3>Then I suppose that<br><br>
<br>
~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Sharp siding on its side<br>
^&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Fried's chevron siding<br>
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Shaw siding<br>
A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Aluminum siding<br>
V&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is vinyl siding.<br>
?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is indeterminant siding<br><br>
<br>
*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is a little star<br><br>
</font><font size=5>*&nbsp;&nbsp; is a big star<br><br>
</font><font size=3>=&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is lines forward and
back...<br><br>
Great...we are now back to cryptic notation!<br><br>
mm <br><br>
<br>
</font></html>

--Boundary_(ID_hB2WaZ03bfrZ21vINvW4LA)--
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:50:04 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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mail.mhtc.net>
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At 06:20 PM 9/12/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but usually find the
>answer before I can hit 'send'.  I came across another example
>the other night, and am trying *not* to think of a solution, so I
>can finally click that button.
>
>I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use
>more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with
>much on the spot.  It's a dance for four couples in a square.
>The figure that gave me trouble was "head men cross, then
>head women cross".

The only gender free terminology would be to refer to the geographic position

"left-side head cross"  etc  very cumbersome

Let the dancers form in any order that they wish, but tell them  that you 
will be using conventional terminology as a callers convenience and it does 
not imply gender except in an historical sense.

right-file, left-file does not work, as one has to establish whether one is 
looking up the line or down the line

colors are euphimisms for gender (blue, pink)

I am open to ideas for the ECD community..

mm



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<html>
<font size=3>At 06:20 PM 9/12/2002 +0000, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I've been wanting to ask this for a
while, but usually find the <br>
answer before I can hit 'send'.&nbsp; I came across another example<br>
the other night, and am trying *not* to think of a solution, so I <br>
can finally click that button.<br><br>
I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use <br>
more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with <br>
much on the spot.&nbsp; It's a dance for four couples in a square.&nbsp;
<br>
The figure that gave me trouble was &quot;head men cross, then <br>
head women cross&quot;.</font></blockquote><br>
The only gender free terminology would be to refer to the geographic
position<br><br>
&quot;left-side head cross&quot;&nbsp; <b><i>etc&nbsp; very
cumbersome<br><br>
</i></b>Let the dancers form in any order that they wish, but tell
them&nbsp; that you will be using conventional terminology as a callers
convenience and it does not imply gender except in an historical
sense.<br><br>
right-file, left-file does not work, as one has to establish whether one
is looking up the line or down the line<br><br>
colors are euphimisms for gender (blue, pink)<br><br>
I am open to ideas for the ECD community..<br><br>
mm<br><br>
<br>
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_SC+aaeuzmq+JKsYCO7Ep8g)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:04:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMF7S8XEO48WVZD2-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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References: <E17pcKF-0005se-00-AT-
app6.nasc.inter.net>

Deb wrote:

> A comment from the floor:
> when I attend a dance with gender-reference-free teaching, I generally
> find it so seamless that I don't even _notice_, unless I think about it,
> that GRF is being used.  I'm sure some of those teachers will chime in
> with tips for you--I just wanted to say that they do it so _well_, that
> I don't have to stop and think.  I just dance.

And indeed, global reference can help convey dance structure information
even without it being particularly gender-reference-free.  Nobody really
notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making the 
people in those positions go through gender translation.

It happens that just before the question came up, I'd added a link from the ECD
home page ( http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx ) to a nice
glossary which includes discussions of globally-based calling.  Anyone
interested is invited to check it out.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:34:03 PST
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:33:33 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
quiltr.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05101006b9a6f08a721d-AT-
[192.168.1.101]>
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>So, when I come across LH*, I don't pronounce it "Left-hand star." I just
>say, "Bleaah!"


Interesting.

I see LH in the context of ECD as being Left Hands (with the rest 
being understood as Across etc)

As one totally guilty of having merged all the shorthands of all my 
life trainings and experience, I guess I take it all as it comes.

Mary Beth
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:58:38 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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http://www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose/terms.html

Is a GREAT gender free terminology site......
Thanks for the pointer....(hmmmm.....tells you how long it has been since I 
visited the SLAC ECD pages!)

Will endeavor to incorporate some of the ideas.




>It happens that just before the question came up, I'd added a link from 
>the ECD
>home page ( http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx ) to a nice
>glossary which includes discussions of globally-based calling.  Anyone
>interested is invited to check it out.
>
>-- Alan

--Boundary_(ID_o4o+1dKy4Mjbqgu6Akm71g)
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<html>
<font size=3><a href="http://www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose/terms.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose/terms.html</a><br><br>
Is a GREAT gender free terminology site......<br>
Thanks for the pointer....(hmmmm.....tells you how long it has been since
I visited the SLAC ECD pages!)<br><br>
Will endeavor to incorporate some of the ideas.<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>It happens that just before the
question came up, I'd added a link from the ECD<br>
home page (
<a href="http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx" eudora="autourl">http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx</a>
) to a nice<br>
glossary which includes discussions of globally-based calling.&nbsp; Anyone<br>
interested is invited to check it out.<br><br>
-- Alan</font></blockquote></html>

--Boundary_(ID_o4o+1dKy4Mjbqgu6Akm71g)--
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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:58:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:58:34 -0700
From: Karsten <karsten-AT-
technotop.com>
Subject: Re: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3D80FFFA.8170.4D620D0-AT-
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Alan Winston wrote:
> There is at present no official definition of acceptable style for
> ECD, so the answer you're asking for is more or less a consensus of
> practitioners. Acceptable style is usually very clean - devoid of
> extra twirls, etc.
>
> In right->left transitions, the default behavior I've always seen is
> to turn in 180 degrees.

There are at least two widely appreciated stylistic goals at conflict in 
this transition. Turning in does keep the dancers in the foursome 
from facing fully away from each other but detracts from smooth 
forward flow to a greater degree than turning out does.

There are also at least two practical considerations.

First, if the turn inward is a small curl the dancers end up closer 
together as they start the reverse star, which can be a problem with 
larger dancers or elaborate costumes.

Second, if the turn is more of a pivot than a curl it can be harder on 
the knees.  

In theory both a turn inward and a turn outward should both be 180 
degrees (starting and ending forward motion tangent to the circle) 
but in my experience dancers usually lead the stars, facing 
somewhat toward the center, increasing the angle measure of an 
outward turn and decreasing that of an inward turn.  This being the 
case and all other things being equal, turning-in is therefore faster 
than turning-out.

That seems to be the reason most dancers I see turn-in - they allot 
little to no time for a turn in the first musical phrase, then take the 
quickest turn they can, without consideration for style, to catch up 
with the already started reverse star's musical phrase.  That turn is 
an abrupt inward pivot.

--Karsten
================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:18:22 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>
>I distinctly remember Ralph Page commenting, after he switched his cigar
>to the other side of his mouth to empasize the point, that the wrist-grip
>was adopted by New England square and contra dancers after they had seen
>the Lithuanian dancers using it during one of the first NEFFA Folk festivals.

When I learned to contra dance in Boston in the early 60's, stars were 
still done with hands across grip.  At that time western squares already 
used the wrist grip now favored by contra dancers.  My understanding was 
that it evolved from German dance traditions much earlier than Neffa, 
coming over with early German settlers.    (I think I got this from Jerry 
Helt, - but I'm not sure). I do know some 18th century German dances that 
use wrist grip on the "mill" figure .

Back in the 60's we were careful to keep the regional styles intact.  When 
we did contras, we used hands across stars, when we did squares, we did 
wrist grip.  We used buzz step swings for contras and walk around swings 
for some regions of squares.  Contra dance balances were silent setting 
steps or step-swings-- only Appalacchian dancers chugged, making noise on a 
balance.  Whether we took hands on a right and left through depended on 
where in the US the dance was from.

I have always assumed that contra dances acquired the wrist grip from 
square dancers, mooshing regional styles when contra dance moved out of its 
home environment of New England, and met the styles of other regions.   I 
have trouble believing  the whole country would have gone from hands across 
to wrist grip overnight after seeing one Lithuanian group perform at Neffa, 
but it makes a good story.

Victoria Bestock in Seattle


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 02:33:19 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com>

<<[To Alan, over Annette's head]:
Hmmm.
Strictly speaking, this: *
is an asterisk, not a star.
So, when I come across LH*, I don't pronounce it "Left-hand star." I just
say, "Bleaah!" >>

Little Nell put on her skates
Upon the ice to frisk
Now wasn't she a silly girl
Her little *


Peace,
Paul



================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:11:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209130906030.44656-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Paul / Victoria Bestock wrote:

> have trouble believing  the whole country would have gone from hands across
> to wrist grip overnight after seeing one Lithuanian group perform at Neffa,
> but it makes a good story.

Hadn't meant to imply that.  Just quoting from Ralph's observation of some
dancers in his YWCA weekly dance.  At that time (1950's) I don't recall
any German or German-American or Danish or Danish American groups in the
Boston area.   I was active in organizing the NEFFA performance programs
and would have loved to be able to add these groups to our shows.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:09:04 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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> while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
> segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
> assigning yet more numbers or names).

...
Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never remember if I'm a
"moon" or a "star".....


But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be easy to
remember!
CK


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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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Campbell Kaynor wrote:

> But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be easy to
> remember!
> CK


[loud sound of Disapproval from the List]
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:28:20 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Hands across versus wrist gripping in Contras. .
To: ECD-AT-
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Although I am a youngster so my contra experience only dates into the early
'70s, the oral lore at that time in Western Mass and Southern NH was that
the wrist grip was a style borrowed from the club-style square dancers and
the only ones doing the hands across were those who:
1) learned contra from books or other academic sources
2) dancers who belonged to dance clubs who had static defined ways of
dancing contra (CDS Boston and CDSS were considered such along with the
international FD groups etc...)
3) dancers who were trying to recreate the old-fashioned styles (I still
teach the hands across at contradances as the "old-fashioned star" when it
occurs in some of our newer dances, and it is often the only star I teach
at events like weddings where the entire crowd is new).
4) dancers who were from CT or Boston (which may have been regional or it
may have been for the reasons mentioned above).

This is all hearsay and personal experience from a rather confined
geographical area.
Cammy

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:53:51 -0700
From: Kalia Kliban <kalia-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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Christine Robb wrote:

> I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use
> more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with
> much on the spot.  It's a dance for four couples in a square.
> The figure that gave me trouble was "head men cross, then
> head women cross".

So after much list discussion and bandying of terminology
and pointing-to of web pages that are chock-full of useful
information that answers _other_ questions, no-one has
actually answered Christine's question.  Rooting through the
H&R site, the closest I could come to a solution was to
treat the 4 couple set as a small circle, designating the
"men" and "women" as ones and twos, but it's much the same
issue as with "moons" and "stars".  You'd just be
substituting one noun for another, without really changing
the structure of the call itself.  I've been waiting to hear
Graham or Chris or Brooke chime in on this one.  Any pearls
of wisdom, folks?

Kalia

-- 
Kalia Kliban
kalia-AT-
sbcglobal.net  <--- Note new email address!

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From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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In regards to Hunsdon House specifically, I define and then use "first
diagonal" and "second diagonal." I do the same in Picking Of Sticks and
many others. Where "corners" or gender descriptions are ambiguous or take
longer for dancers to grasp.

================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:24:47 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
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In the specific situation at hand, i.e., square, head couples, men doing X,
women doing X, I would say this:
"Inside the head couples--those are the couples either facing me or with
their backs to me--you have *right* diagonal people and *left* diagonal
people. OK, right diagonals change places. Now left diagonals change."

And when prompting: "Heads...right diagonals change...and lefts..."

Second time through the dance: "Heads...diagonal changes..."

You're in much more trouble with a dance like Hyde Park, where men weave
'round women and then women 'round men. What we usually end up doing is
saying, "Your partner is beside you. One of you partner on the right hand:
you're the left-side dancers. One of you has partner on the left: you're
the right-side dancers. Left-side dancers will weave in and out..." and so
forth. A little cumbersome: good to demonstrate.

To me, The Bishop is quite different: that's where geographical markers
help. "#1 dancer on the menhir side: cast..."

Some dances that ask for ballroom hold, waltzing, swing-and-change, &c. are
nearly impossible to do this way--or just quite unrewarding. So, I don't
attempt to teach *everything*.

Others' mileage may vary--Brooke may well have more to add.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:26:14 PST
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:25:41 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Calling Hilary
To: EngCountryDance <ECD-AT-
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Hilary would you please contact me off list re Halsway event.
Alan Corkett

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:39:05 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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Quoth Alan:
>Nobody really
>notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
>say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making the
>people in those positions go through gender translation.

But....but....first corners would mean the first lady and the
second gentleman.

:)

Susan
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:02:29 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
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Subject: ...
To: ECD-AT-
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"Quoth Alan:
>Nobody really
>notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
>say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making
the
>people in those positions go through gender translation.

But....but....first corners would mean the first lady and the
second gentleman.

:)"

In Regency dances, I don't doubt it. However, *if* calling for a
contemporary ECD crowd, trained in the Sharp/Shaw/Shimer and others
tradition, this is not at all their expectation--and one would have to
explain the difference, or expect collisions.



Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Fw: Calling Hilary HERBERT
To: EngCountryDance <ECD-AT-
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Hilary would you please contact me off list re Halsway event.
Alan Corkett



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From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Graham writes:
(re. differing definitions of first corners)
>In Regency dances, I don't doubt it. However, *if* calling for a
>contemporary ECD crowd, trained in the Sharp/Shaw/Shimer and others
>tradition, this is not at all their expectation--and one would have to
>explain the difference, or expect collisions

I'm aware of the MECD tradition, and I never call MECD so wouldn't
expect a problem except when MECD people assume that theirs is the
only way of doing things and try to apply that assumption in
inappropriate venues.

Having to constantly adjust to the assumptions of the majority (who
rarely make an effort to adjust the other direction) is just one of
those things people in a minority have to put up with.  It does
seem a little, um, humorless of you to not even allow me to make a
joke about it, though.

Susan
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:23:36 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: OK, I'm being a pill.
To: ECD-AT-
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Susan's right...I was a little humorless: my apologies.
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:19:25 +0100
From: francis2 <francis2-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.Because that is
what we all are wether we like it or not.
Francis2. A man and proud to be called that in any dance.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Campbell Kaynor" <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology


>
> > while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
> > segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
> > assigning yet more numbers or names).
>
> ...
> Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never remember if I'm a
> "moon" or a "star".....
>
>
> But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be easy to
> remember!
> CK
>
>

================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Francis wrote:

> This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
> call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.

Globally-based calling, as I've said in this very discussion, can benefit even
places where you refer to the people in one line as men and people in the other
line as ladies or women, since it often lets you tell more people their roles
in fewer words, encourages them to think about the big picture of the dance,
and suggests that everyone is an active dancer rather than passively having
things done to them.

"First corners turn two hands"

is in many ways preferable to 

"First man turns second woman two hands"  (pace, Susan).

This is true even for dance clubs consisting entirely of one-man one-woman
couples who only dance together.  In the US, at least, most social ECD - as
distinct from performance - is done in venues where anyone can pay their
admission and there's no guarantee that numbers of men and women will be even.
(For some reason, special events may be different, but your regular dance
series probably makes no attempt to gender balance.)

>Because that is
> what we all are wether we like it or not.

People of the same sex will dance together rather than sit out; that puts
someone in a line of a sex other than the one they brought in the door. Your
simple, logical, calling of men MEN and women WOMEN founders immediately;
you're calling men and women MEN.  It's not ridiculous to discuss other
alternatives. Would you rather that, for the sake of logical clarity, women
without male partners for a particular dance should just stay on the sidelines? 
Or is a woman dancing in the man's line a MAN, and she should just shut up and
take it like a man.

All of the above applies to, if you will, "gender-included" dancing.  There are
some excellent reasons that non-gender-based dancing should exist, including
primarily that it gets more people dancing, even ones who are uncomfortable
with traditional gender roles.

> Francis2. A man and proud to be called that in any dance.

-- Alan (A man, and happy to be called whatever makes the dance work best)


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
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From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Magic moments
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I wonder what your magic moments are.
I don't mean "anything - with my special partner" but rather those where a
particular dance figure or combination of figures just sends you to
dancers' heaven. I nominate 
a) the poussettes in Orleans Baffled, and 
b) the path of the second lady from the end of one sequence of Zephyrs
   and Flora to the beginning of the next.        
What are yours?

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

   
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From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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Or, like Ralph Page originally called "all Republicans - come back"...
It is a rare occasion when there are more men than women dancing, but a
frequent one where the ladies are dancing the man's part or are left out. I
call them "honorary men"... it works.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny
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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 02:26:50 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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<<This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.Because that is
what we all are wether we like it or not.>>

But not, necessarily, what we dance. Gender-free terminology arose for many
reasons, probably deserving a dissertation, but one of them is trying to
deal with the simple fact that the person dancing the man's role may be,
biologically, a woman, and vice versa. One way to deal with that is to
simply say, "Okay, if you're dancing the man's role, I'm calling you a man,
regardless of the contents of your chromosomes, and if you're dancing the
woman's role, I'm calling you a woman, ditto." That's what I usually do in
our not-very-gender-balanced group. Another way is to invent new names for
the roles that aren't the same as sex designations, which avoids the
imprecision of telling Rebecca, Anne and Sally "Okay, now you men..."

Which way's "better"? Arguments have raged about that for years, and I don't
particularly want to get into them, but I think the discussion is far from
ridiculous.

Peace,
Paul

PS Of course, there's the use of "man" as referring to the whole human race,
a separate discussion, about which I'll simply quote an old dancing friend,
"Any construction that allows such sentences as, 'Man is a mammal; he bears
his young alive from his womb and suckles them at his breasts' is suspect."

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Why not go Scottish and call it a Right or Left hand "wheel"
francis2
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: M.G. Mudrey, Jr. 
  To: ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
  Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:06 PM
  Subject: Re: Style Question..


    But that pack-saddle grip has only been in place in American dance since 1948 or thereabouts (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance
    display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was
    cool, and picked it up.


  And in some German dances I have learned it as a backward pack saddle grip rather than the frontward grip!

  Mike

  M.G. Mudrey, Jr.
  Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey
  University of Wisconsin-Extension 
  3817 Mineral Point Road
  Madison, WI 53705-5100
  USA

  Voice: 608-263-5495
  Fax:    608-262-8086
  Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu

  Survey Web Site: http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/



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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why not go Scottish and call it a Right or Left 
hand "wheel"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>francis2</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A href="mailto:mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu" 
  title=mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
  href="mailto:ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" 
  title=ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:06 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Style Question..</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite type="cite"><FONT size=3>But that pack-saddle 
    grip has only been in place in American dance since 1948 or thereabouts 
    (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance<BR>display team saw a 
    Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was<BR>cool, and picked 
    it up.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And in some German dances I have learned it as a 
  backward pack saddle grip rather than the frontward 
  grip!<BR><BR>Mike<BR><X-SIGSEP>
  <P></X-SIGSEP><I>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.<BR>Wisconsin Geological and Natural History 
  Survey<BR>University of Wisconsin-Extension <BR>3817 Mineral Point 
  Road<BR>Madison, WI 53705-5100<BR>USA<BR><BR>Voice: 
  608-263-5495<BR>Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 608-262-8086<BR>Email: 
  mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu<BR><BR>Survey Web Site: <A href="http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/" 
  eudora="autourl">http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/</A><BR></FONT></I></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:11:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:13:31 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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sbcglobal.net>
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References: <OF8B50476B.FBB793C3-ON85256C33.00531BCD-AT-
biogen.com> <000201c25b6b$84108a60$38463c3e-AT-
oemcomputer> <002401c25bc0$18633b00$e568550c-AT-
paulstam>

Paul Stamler wrote:
> Another way is to invent new names for
> the roles that aren't the same as sex designations . . .

I once played a summer-camp dance with a well-known California contra dance
caller named Erik Hoffman.  Erik had the dancers, who were almost entirely
kids, line up without regard to sex; he just said "get in two lines facing
each other."  Then he pointed at one of the lines and said "Ok, what do you
want to be called?"  They all shouted stuff, and he said "I heard
bumblebees.  You're the bumblebees."  Then he did the same with the other
line, who ended up being called something like "bears."  Then he did
han