Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 21:18:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:18:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sue Wartell <swartell-AT-
cas.org>
Subject: Country Dance Weekend in Columbus OH - October 18-20, 2002
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Country Dance event in Columbus, Ohio

Date:    Oct. 18-20, 2002

Place:    OSU Student Union Ballroom, Columbus, OH 

Musicians: Bare Necessities

Cost:     $65  (before October 4; after that, $70)

Schedule:
                                                                                       
 Friday October 18 - American Contra Dance 8-11 PM 
     
 Saturday October 19 - English Country Dance Workshops 
       9:30 AM-12 noon and 1:30-4:00 PM 
        
     English Country Dance Ball 8-11:30 PM 
       Festive attire encouraged. 

 Sunday October 20 - Engish Country Dance Workshop 
       10 AM-12:30 PM. 
     
     Scottish Country Dance 1:30-4:00 PM. 
   
Contact:  swartell-AT-
cas.org

Web site:  http://www.bigscioty.com/shaw.html   (printable 
registration form available at web site.)



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:26:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:26:40 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: roguery rebellion and email lists
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
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Since Mary Beth Goodman refers to me as a "rogue and rebel" in the context 
of a discussion about email, I thought I'd explain something in roguish and 
rebellious fashion.

For each message I send to any email list, I start afresh with the "compose" 
(or whatever it is in your email) function. I use the "reply" function only 
for  messages to individuals.

My reason is this. I have seen too many personal messages ending up on email 
lists. I don't mean mere harmless ones, such as "don't forget to pick up the 
laundry on your way home," or "you swine, if you fail to acknowledge that I 
published first, I will see your head nailed to Traitor's Gate."

Rather, I mean ones like (speaking from memory here): a married colleague 
who had just started an extramarital affair with another colleague telling 
an international list of approx 300 professional colleagues, who were 
scratching their puzzled heads in offices from New York City to Vladivostok, 
that he "wish[ed] I were with you, I love you and many kisses"; another 
colleague, unmarried this time, intending to discuss her date of the 
previous evening with a single friend, accidentally sharing the dirt with 
several hundred people (she ran into my office after realizing what she had 
done, shouting, "Quick! How do you get an email message back!"); and, oh 
well this could go on all day.

I don't know whether my method is the recommended one, but it works for me. 
I also always set email lists to "digest." So besides preventing 
embarrassments (outside of the list's collective righteous indignation which 
is the consequence of my asinine and turgidly yet incoherently expressed 
opinions, that is), my method also keeps me from sending the entire day's 
digest back to the list when I am merely trying to teach an individual the 
error of his or her ways.

Roguishly and rebelliously yrs
Steve Corrsin

Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:48:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity in it's contexts
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020903164803.9336.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
wrote:
>   
> Anyway, my actual point is that "Modern" means different things in
> different disciplines, covers eras which may not even overlap in
time with other things called "Modern", and post-Modern doesn't
describe everything that comes after "Modern" forever, but initially
meant a reaction to the "Modern" movement. 

> (A really extreme example is computer science, where "antique
> programming languages" are ones that were around in 1970s and
1980s, and "modern" ones are ones under active development

--- Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
panix.com> wrote:
>  From the standpoint of a historian (or perhaps, an Historian...)
> the term "modern" applied to European history begins circa 1500
(e.g. in the _Cambridge Modern History_, which begins with Maximilian
> Hapsburg.)

--- "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net> wrote:
> Vaguely I remember a history course in college that had Modern
> European History starting in 1815.
> 
> As a geologist, modern is post 10,000 years bp.


And then of course, anatomically modern Homo sapiens first appeared
sometime between 200,000-100,000 years ago (replacing the late
archaic type commonly known as Neanderthals), but do not appear in
Europe until around 50,000-40,000 years ago making them rather late
moderns.  Presumably they were not doing English Country Dancing of
any vintage, given that England hadn't been invented yet.


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:16:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:20:49 -0700
From: Mary Luckhardt <mary-AT-
luckhardt.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Date for Portland Ball?
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E17mIDA-0001qN-00-AT-
harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
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Can someone give me the date of the 2002 Portland Ball?  

Thanks,
Mary Luckhardt
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:49:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:50:29 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Date for Portland Ball?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020903114956.00a43ec0-AT-
mail.oz.net>
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At 11:20 AM 9/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Can someone give me the date of the 2002 Portland Ball?
>
>Thanks,
>Mary Luckhardt

Nov 2.

Victoria




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:58:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:58:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: roguery rebellion and email lists
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0209032057140.7167-100000-AT-
panix2.panix.com>
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On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:
> I don't know whether my method is the recommended one, but it works for me.
> I also always set email lists to "digest." So besides preventing
> embarrassments (outside of the list's collective righteous indignation which
> is the consequence of my asinine and turgidly yet incoherently expressed
> opinions, that is), my method also keeps me from sending the entire day's
> digest back to the list when I am merely trying to teach an individual the
> error of his or her ways.

  My experience is that it not only fails to do this (consider how many
people neglect to edit "quoted" text anyway), but results in exasperating
recipients with subject lines like "ECD Digest #666".



Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.ecben.net/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:04:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: roguery rebellion and email lists
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KM2N6JYDRCIRIBLS-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Will Linden quoted:

> On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:
> > I don't know whether my method is the recommended one, but it works for me.
> > I also always set email lists to "digest." So besides preventing
> > embarrassments (outside of the list's collective righteous indignation which
> > is the consequence of my asinine and turgidly yet incoherently expressed
> > opinions, that is), my method also keeps me from sending the entire day's
> > digest back to the list when I am merely trying to teach an individual the
> > error of his or her ways.

And wrote:

>   My experience is that it not only fails to do this (consider how many
> people neglect to edit "quoted" text anyway), but results in exasperating
> recipients with subject lines like "ECD Digest #666".

I don't see how Steve's two methods - never "reply", always "send" and 
"always take the digest" - could, taken together, produce the result of which
you complain.  Taking them separately, yes.

But I really only replied to this so I could requote Steve on his "asinine and
turgidly yet incoherently expressed opinions" and suggest that he's not giving
himself enough credit; nobody with a dictionary (or a thesaurus, for that
matter) could call his expression of his opinions "turgid."

-- Alan




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:26:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:05:02 +1000
From: Earthly Delights <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dance Database
To: "ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <B99B995F.35F3%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
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I am looking for an internet site that features lots of English Country
Dance Descriptions/Instructions. Can anyone recommend any?
Regards, Aylwen

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:31:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:32:38 +0100
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugs.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance Database
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D7635A6.CA4CF11F-AT-
ugs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <B99B995F.35F3%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>

Earthly Delights wrote:

> I am looking for an internet site that features lots of English Country
> Dance Descriptions/Instructions. Can anyone recommend any?
> Regards, Aylwen

http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/round/dances/p-index.htm
gives brief instructions for what someone (in about 1960) deemed
to be the core Playford repertoire

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:35:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 12:32:40 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Dance Database
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <003f01c25439$18383100$926d550c-AT-
paulstam>
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References: <B99B995F.35F3%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au> <3D7635A6.CA4CF11F-AT-
ugs.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugs.com>

Earthly Delights wrote:

> I am looking for an internet site that features lots of English Country
> Dance Descriptions/Instructions. Can anyone recommend any?
> Regards, Aylwen

<< http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/round/dances/p-index.htm
gives brief instructions for what someone (in about 1960) deemed
to be the core Playford repertoire >>

You also might try:

http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/dances.cgi

Peace,
Paul



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:03:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 02:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020905090304.23044.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>
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> Gene wrote:
> > Any way you can program the "Reply to:" header to contain the
> > original sender's address?

--- Alan Winston wrote:
> And the answer is: Yes, I can, but I believe that to be the wrong
> choice.
> 
> This is a discussion list, and the default choice for replies
> should be to the list.  This is a conversation being conducted in
> public; if you have a reply to the speaker on the subject it should
> be heard.  If you want to hand the speaker a note on some other
> subject or some private aspect of the current subject, you can go
> to the trouble of addressing that note yourself.

I'm on a Scandinavian Dance and Music list that is set to reply only
to the sender and I find that very frustrating and annoying for
exactly the reasons that Alan gives; group discussions get squashed
because replies never get back to the entire group. I wouldn't want
this group to be changed to only reply to the sender. All other lists
I'm on are set to reply to the group.

Andy

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 03:53:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 06:53:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Steve Corrsin
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <167.135ca2f2.2aa89199-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/9/02 3:00:51 pm, system-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
writes:

>But I really only replied to this so I could requote Steve on his "asinine
>and
>turgidly yet incoherently expressed opinions" and suggest that he's not
>giving
>himself enough credit; nobody with a dictionary (or a thesaurus, for that
>matter) could call his expression of his opinions "turgid."

Hear,hear!

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland.   <A HREF="aol://1722:chathelp">
</A>http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:20:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:10:41 +0100
From: Colin Hume <colin-AT-
colinhume.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E17nMlr-0002Cc-00.2002-09-06-18-19-52-AT-
mail17.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Theme - Teaching and Learning

The Conference was at Etching Hill, Rugeley, Staffordshire on Sunday
September 1st, 10am-4pm, and 21 people took part, coming from places
as far away as Yorkshire and Sussex.  These are my personal opinions
on the day; I'm sure other people will have seen things differently.

The theme of the conference was teaching and learning, and the idea
was to discover how we and other dancers learn.  In the morning we
experimented with some radical methods of teaching dances and
thinking about what we learnt and what was difficult or impossible!

Wendy Knight introduced the Day and said it was really going to be
experimental - none of the leaders knew quite what was going to
happen, and she hoped it would be fun and we wouldn't take it all too
seriously. Her thesis was that people learn in three main ways - by
hearing, seeing and doing.  (There are more impressive words used by
psychologists, but they mean the same thing!)  The topic first came
up in conversation with Bruce Hamilton from California, who said he
had once listed these methods and one dancer had said he didn't learn
by any of them.

Alan Davies led the first session on learning by listening.  He
pointed out that ordinary English words like "cast" and "set" are
used in a totally different context when explaining dances.  A phrase
like "Box the gnat" doesn't mean anything until it is explained, and
the command "Men look up; ladies look down" means something quite
different to a dancer.

Alan wanted to get us feeling the way a complete beginner feels at a
dance, and to this end he walked through and called a dance in pidgin
German.  In this new vocabulary there was no mention of men and
women, and the groups of four people were arranged in a "compass set"
- one at each of the four points of the compass.

I didn't find this at all difficult.  It was indeed different
terminology, but when he had described a movement I thought "That's a
turn single" and when he called the word I did a turn single.  It was
somewhat like dancing to a caller using a foreign language, but it
wasn't really like being a beginner - we all knew the figures,
whatever strange name they might have, and we all knew how to dance
in time with the music.

Wendy Knight led the second session on learning by doing the moves.
We were split into three groups, and each group learnt a three couple
longways progressive dance.  We had to blindfold another group and
walk them through the dance without any words or other sounds.  The
idea was that we would dance it with them to the music, and then they
would remove the blindfolds and dance it without any helpers.

We discussed standing behind people versus standing beside them, and
decided that we would stay behind them the whole time, except for the
circle where we would pass them around from one helper to the next.

In the walkthrough we found that the biggest problem was getting
Cyril Jones to let go of hands - once he'd been given someone's hand
he held on with a vice-like grip!  Some people were willing to walk
with their hands out and be given hands to take; some seemed very
closed up, as if unwilling to be involved at all.

When it came to dancing it to the music, we rapidly discovered that
this wasn't possible with six helpers and six blindfold people.
Instead we walked it through from each of the three positions, with
Wendy giving them the additional information that "This is the start
of the second figure", etc.

When the set danced it without the helpers, Alan Davies and Cyril
Jones were each very inventive when they were first man.  Presumably
they didn't like being in a situation where they didn't know what was
going on.  They both called the dance very confidently (and
differently, and wrongly), then waited till the music caught up for
the next turn of the dance.  I'm sure a psychoanalyst would have
drawn all sorts of interesting conclusions about the personalities
involved!

Then it was my turn to be blindfolded.  I knew I was starting facing
my partner, but not what number I was.  I decided it started with
cross and cast, and therefore I was first man, which turned out to be
correct.  After that I thought it was half figure eight up, which is
a standard start to a three couple or triple minor dance, getting the
ones proper in middle place. In fact it was cross again and cast to
the bottom - I had never realised how similar the two tracks were.  I
worked out the half poussette, but didn't realise there were actually
two half poussettes to get the ones back to the top - so I was where
I thought I should be, but hadn't got there by the path I thought I
had taken.  The next move was totally beyond me.  In fact it was
"First corners cross; second corners cross", but without any contact
I couldn't work this out.  Circle half-way and fall back was fine, as
was the final three changes at the top and one at the bottom - but
when it came to dancing it to the music I was never in the right
place to execute those moves!  I was also somewhat thrown by the fact
that the tune was a slip-jig rather than a reel or jig, so I only had
six steps for each movement rather than the expected eight.

Cyril Jones led a session on learning by listening; he called two or
three Playford-style dances without a walkthrough and without any
instrumental music, by singing the call.  This is fine with American
Squares, but I don't like it at all with Playford or traditional
style dances.  I wasn't convinced that I learnt anything from this;
it just confirmed my prejudices!

The next session was learning purely visually.  Alan Davies, Ruth
Allmayer, Graham and Wendy Knight showed us a two couple Playford
-style dance with four figures.  They danced it up to speed, then to
a very slow tune, then up to speed again, while we all watched with
intense concentration.  Then we had to dance it.  My set did fairly
well - I didn't have time to see what any of the other sets were
doing.  There were the three Playford introductions to cling on to,
plus a fourth introduction of falling back on the diagonals and
coming forward, but each started with a step and honour, and you had
to remember who to honour, then do the introduction with the other
person, then reverse it.  Wendy had done a brilliant job of writing
the dance, and explained her philosophy afterwards.  The first figure
was reasonably straightforward, with leads and gates.  The second was
a half double figure eight and a handy-hand turn one and a half, then
the same again from new positions.  It flowed beautifully, but you
had to recognise what was going on before you had any chance of
reproducing it.  Perhaps because I'm a dance writer, I'm aware of the
whole shape of a dance - I don't just see it as a random collection
of figures.  I'm sure there are dancers who don't see the shape at
all, just blindly follow the caller's instructions, and they would
not have had a chance.  You also had to see where people started and
finished each movement, to be aware that the turns were one and a
half, and not just once around.  The third figure was deliberately
indescribable - I watched it all three times thinking "What on earth
is going on here?" and we didn't dance it at all well; the most you
could say was that we all got back to our starting position.  And the
final figure was not so bad.  The whole thing reminded me of the
first time I watched a display team dancing Kimberley Smith's
beautiful dance "The Merifest Central Square".  I was sitting with
Pat Skelton, who also writes complex dances, and we both said we
really hadn't worked out what was happening at all and certainly
couldn't go away and write it down!

Wendy's dance brought home to me the fact that in order to remember
something you have to give it a name, or a series of names.  If you'd
never danced a half double figure of eight before, you would have
found it impossible to memorise the second figure.

The dance is called "With GUSTO", and the instructions are with this
report on the GUSTO web site at
http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/conf2.htm in case you would like
to try it out.

Wendy led the next session which was again visual, this time asking
us to reconstruct an old dance printed in (simplified) Feuillet
notation, which was used in some books of French and English country
dances in the eighteenth century and indeed for figured minuets and
many other dances.  I've had some experience of studying this so I
didn't have much problem, though I still got one figure wrong because
I hadn't looked closely enough at the diagram.  It was interesting to
see different people's attitudes to this one.  Philip Price was a
less experienced dancer than most of the others present, and he said
he found it much easier to study the notation than to watch people
demonstrating the dance.  Madeleine Smith said she was greatly helped
by having the music for the dance playing while we were studying the
notation, whereas to me it was an unnecessary distraction.  Some
groups needed to stand up and walk everything through, whereas I
could see the dance just by looking at the paper.  Maybe that's
because I'm a dance writer, but I remember a workshop at a festival
where we were asked to work out dances from Playford's original
wording, and I found that David and Kathryn Wright also needed to
walk things through.

The conclusion is surely that as callers and teachers we need to be
able to explain the dances in different ways, rather than assuming
that our preferred method of learning is the "right" one and other
people should think in the same way.  Also, people may have a
preferred style of learning but also pick up clues using other
styles.  I've heard of someone who taught "Dutch Crossing" by first
drawing diagrams on a flip-chart, and some people obviously found
this helpful.  Ian McFarlane made the point that it takes him several
weeks of observing new dancers to work out how they learn.

The afternoon sessions focused on Progression - not the ones moving
down and the twos moving up, as I had assumed, but the idea that
workshops should be at different levels with a logical progression
-that's the "Structured" in "Grand Union Structured Training
Organisation".  Otherwise you can go to festivals and take a workshop
at the same level each time, without being given a chance to develop
further.

Val McFarlane showed us the sort of session she runs for people with
learning disabilities.  She reiterated that people have a preferred
style of learning, and also pointed out that movement stimulates the
brain, so she includes some dancing in every lesson she gives.  She
finds that people learn a lot by watching the other dancers, and are
very willing to help each other; the idea is "to enable our set to do
the dance".  She calls at a club for those with hearing impairment,
and she starts with a group of helpers demonstrating the dance.  Then
the helpers distribute themselves among the various sets, Val and Ian
give verbal instructions, and the helpers translate these into sign
language.  Whole families come along to support their hearing
-impaired member.

She started our session by explaining that we would do three dances
involving stars, and drew some simple diagrams on a whiteboard to
illustrate this.  She stuck red spots on the right hand of people who
felt they might have difficulties telling right from left - this
appeared to be most of the room - and started with a dance in a
circle.  This is ideal because the dancers can see each other and the
leader can see everyone. She also emphasised that this was a sociable
dance, since we changed partners every time.  The second was a
Sicilian circle - Ron Coxall's "How do you do".  The third, if she
had had time, would have been John Wood's "Crosses and Noughts".

It's always difficult calling to experienced dancers who are
pretending they are much less experienced, but people entered into
the spirit of the thing and we all felt that if we really had
learning difficulties Val would be our preferred teacher.

Madeleine Smith taught a session on Tension.  Again I had
misunderstood the topic in the publicity - it was about Giving
Weight, not the mental stresses and strains of dancing or calling.
She explained that in many movements - turns, stars, baskets,
swinging - we are dependent on other people for our enjoyment, and
giving weight is an important part of this. She taught turns (right
-hand, left-hand, two-hand, reverse two-hand) in a circle, and then
moved on to a Sicilian circle for circles and stars.  If it's circle
left and then circle right, people can get away with not giving
weight because the circles don't have to go all the way round, so she
put in a do-si-do after each circle or star.  You need reasonably
simple dances, so that people don't get bogged down in the figures.
A promenade is another move where people need to give weight, and
it's always useful to reverse roles so that the men find out what
it's like to be expected to scurry around on the outside without any
support.  She recommended some dances for giving weight, without
having the necessary time to do them all. "The Rifleman" is a good
test of giving weight in the promenade and also in the North Country
ladies chain - if the men don't help the ladies it becomes very
unsatisfactory.  Incidentally, I was amazed at how few people
actually knew the dance - our traditional dances seem to be an
endangered species.  We danced Pat Shaw's classic "Margaret's Waltz",
which again several people seemed not to know.  Brian Wedgbury's
"Dunham Oaks" has a circle and a star which have to go round all the
way, and I've seen people go wrong many times because of this.  Cecil
Sharp's interpretation of "Jacob Hall's Jig" has some very quick
turns, where again giving weight is essential.

Finally Barbara Kinsman gave a masterclass on the same sort of
material, this time aimed at experienced dancers.  She pointed out
that it is possible to have the right tension even between a very
tall and a very short person, and that in a really good group you can
feel that in the simple "lines forward and back" you are all moving
as one line - it can be very satisfying.  The same is true of a
slipped circle, but it's much harder to achieve with a walk or skip
-change step.  She finds that even if people are tired, there are
some dances such as "Wakefield Hunt" where the dancers alway slip the
circle - the music drives them and they can't help themselves.  A
back-to-back is not a physically connected movement, but the tension
is still there between the two dancers as they work together,
particularly at the anacrusis before the fall back.  I would make the
same point about a Hole-in-the-Wall cross.  Barbara said that in a
real masterclass she would start with Fried Merman's "Chocolate Round
O", which Fried refers to as her weight-giving dance.

Again there was not time to develop the session into a real
masterclass, but the idea was to show the people attending how you
would go about running classes at each of the three levels, and I'm
sure this objective was achieved.

In the final discussion Wendy said that it was important to have
objectives for a workshop, and for people to be able to decide
whether these had been achieved.  We talked about the problem of
making the level clear to potential attendees, and the perils of
people grading themselves.

I can't think of any other organisation in the country which would
have put on these workshops.  I suspect many "experienced" dancers
would have been totally baffled by the proceedings and thought it a
pointless exercise, but I'm sure the people attending didn't think
that at all.

The next conference will be on Sunday April 13th 2003 in Kent, on the
theme of Assessing your dancers.  The one after that will probably
again be at Etching Hill, on Sunday August 31th 2003.  Wendy is
considering a theme of "The tingle factor", but is open to other
suggestions.  Each conference will be preceded by a Dance on the
Saturday evening.  If you would like to come to both the Saturday
Dance and the Sunday Conference we can also give details of Bed and
Breakfast accommodation.

Colin Hume

Email colin-AT-
colinhume.com      Web site http://www.colinhume.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:38:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:40:42 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b99eed68d79b-AT-
[140.186.55.20]>
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References: <E17nMlr-0002Cc-00.2002-09-06-18-19-52-AT-
mail17.svr.pol.co.uk>

Wow.  Thanks so much, Colin, for this wonderful and thoroughly 
interesting report. 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:36:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 07:35:38 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000801c25638$c8cf95c0$b34086d9-AT-
default>
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Very interesting reading - I feel as though I was there!!
Alan Corkett


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:34:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Pearl <daniel_pearl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance Database
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020907153444.44418.qmail-AT-
web12304.mail.yahoo.com>
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The NEFFA LinkFest to the rescue!

http://www.neffa.org/~neffa/Top/Folk_Dancing/English_Country_Dance/Dance_Sequences/index.shtml


__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:02:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Andersen <cdw_ecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: GUSTO Conference
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020907170216.95715.qmail-AT-
web12203.mail.yahoo.com>
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In his wonderful report on the GUSTO Conference, Colin
wrote:

 > Barbara said that in a real masterclass
 > she would start with Fried Merman's
 > "Chocolate Round O" . . .

Is that the one who's related to Ethel Herman?

Even though he made 'de Metz' of it, what a delicious
typo!

Carl [speaking this time only for himself, not C.D.W.]


=====
Carl E. Andersen, C.D.W. Herald
* This information about Country Dancers of Westchester is sent to you because we believe you are interested in knowing about our activities. If you prefer not to receive future notices, please reply asking to be removed from our list of addressees. Know anyone who'd like to receive these notices? Send us their e-mail addresses! *

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Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:10:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 21:17:46 -0700
From: Ric Goldman <timelord-AT-
rgoldman.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Possible ECD gig, Sacramento, 9/21
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <NCBBKEFLBLMHAGLCIJMKEEMKHCAA.timelord-AT-
rgoldman.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Folks,

As Alan requested...

It looks like I've gotten this gig, subject to my meeting their band.
FWIW, it's grown way past ECD to include some Irish, Ceilidh, and Morris
(again based on what the band is capable of).  <Whew!>

Thanx, Ric Goldman
timelord-AT-
rgoldman.org
http://connect.to/ric

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ecd-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Winston -
> SSRL Central Computing
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:43 AM
> To: ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Subject: Possible ECD gig, Sacramento, 9/21
>
>
>
> ECDers --
>
> I received the following note.  I know nothing more about
> this gig than is
> included in the note; it will avail nothing to ask me about
> it.  (I am busy
> that weekend so not even considering taking this myself.)
>
> Here's the note:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> I am the maid of honor for a September (21st - Harvest Moon)
> bride holding a
> Renaissance style wedding out of doors in Sacramento.  Much
> of the wedding has
> been hand-made (the beer, the mead, my dress, her dress) and
> we are currently
> polishing the tankards!  We would love to have someone there
> to lead English
> Country Dancing.  I know this is late notice, but could you
> point us in a
> direction?
>
> Thanks,
> Amy Seiwert
> aseiwert-AT-
speakeasy.net
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
>
> If you can help Amy out, please write to her directly (and cc
> me so I know
> what's going on).  It sounds as though they might want
> RenFaire-style ECD,
> so this might be appropriate for Pryanksters/Helena/Bruno.
> If you get the gig,
> write back to the list so other people know not to bother.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Alan
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL
> Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo
> Park CA   94025
> ==============================================================
> =================
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:40:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:36:51 +0100
From: Colin Hume <colin-AT-
colinhume.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Wednesday Workshops in London
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E17osgz-0005k4-00.2002-09-10-22-37-05-AT-
mail17.svr.pol.co.uk>
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I'm running a series of dance workshops on the second and fourth
Wednesdays of each month, starting October 23rd, in the Kennedy Hall
at Cecil Sharp House in London.  Music will be provided by a new
young band, The Whirligigs, consisting of Daniel Hollingshurst and
Caroline Wright.  Wednesday Workshops are aimed at good dancers who
like to tackle some more complicated material and would welcome the
chance to improve their Dance Technique.  If you think that sounds
like you, why not come along.  If you want more information, don't
contact me - I'll be in the States from September 12th to October
11th.  Email Judith Hanson on Judith.A.Hanson-AT-
btopenworld.com

Colin Hume


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:11:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:11:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carl Andersen <cdw_ecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: First Fling
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020912131124.88395.qmail-AT-
web12204.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear Dance Friends,

Please join us for "First Fling," the inaugural dance
party of Country Dancers of Westchester's 2002-2003
season. It's this Saturday, September 14, at Church in
the Highlands on Bryant Ave. in White Plains, NY.
Dancing begins at 8pm.
 
MCs for the event are Fried Herman, Carol Martinez,
and Paul Ross; music by Norma Castle, Sue Polansky,
and Robin Russell.

Admission is $12.00. CDW members pay $10.00. Annual
membership in CDW costs $12.00, and the membership
year is just now beginning. An application is
available online . . .
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/2225/membapp02.htm

A dance event, "Autumn Enters," is set for Saturday,
September 28. Judi Rivkin will emcee with music
provided by The Flying Romanos - Robin Russell, Marnen
Laibow-Koser, and Norma Castle.
 
Directions to the Church in the Highlands are
available at the CDW website:
 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2225/
 
For more information, call Susan at 914/762-8619 or
Leah at 914/693-5577.


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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:08:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Annette Kirk <akirk200-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020912190829.29211.qmail-AT-
web11708.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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What is the acceptable style for going from a
left-hand star into a right-hand star? I see some
dancers do what they call a "flourish" turn in between
stars.  

=====
Annette Kirk
23 Jefferson Ave
Northport NY 11768
631-757-3627

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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:27:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:38:20 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFD34C04A8.8FD3DEA2-ON85256C32.006B21B2-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
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This flourish--turning outward in preparation for return, rather than
inward--is exactly what Fried Herman has in mind when she denounces
"twiddling." You could do it, of course, but if Fried catches you, she may
snarl your name from the microphone.
This would hold true going from left-hand to right-hand or right-hand to
left-hand, and I wonder a little why the question has arisen in the former
case only.

A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
most are careful to use the ECD term first.

I don't see any thing wrong with some forms of ornamentation--and I'd be
surprised if dancers didnt' "ornament" dances ca. 1650-ca. 1800--but this
particular ornament, at least nowadays, has a contra flavor (like the word
"star")--so it may not be a good choice for English Country Dance except as
a joke.



Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."





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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:30:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEW5RYYVO8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Annette Kirk wrote:

> What is the acceptable style for going from a
> left-hand star into a right-hand star? I see some
> dancers do what they call a "flourish" turn in between
> stars.

I think this is your first post on the ECD list.  Welcome!

There is at present no official definition of acceptable style for ECD, so
the answer you're asking for is more or less a consensus of practitioners.
Acceptable style is usually very clean - devoid of extra twirls, etc.

In most cases the transition seen is from a right-hand star to a left-hand
star.  While I'm sure there are some, I can't offhand think of any left->right
transitions that don't also involve changing sets, in which case extra turns
are definitely not a feature.

In right->left transitions, the default behavior I've always seen is to turn in
180 degrees. In "Morpeth Rant", the explicit instruction is to turn _out_; this
confirms that the default is to turn in.  

I've never heard the term "flourish turn".

I'd be inclined to suspect that the dancers who do that are importing it from
some other dance form, or from some isolated implementation of ECD (eg,
performance team that learned it from a book).

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:43:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEWLXKQXQ8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Graham  wrote:

> This flourish--turning outward in preparation for return, rather than
> inward--is exactly what Fried Herman has in mind when she denounces
> "twiddling." You could do it, of course, but if Fried catches you, she may
> snarl your name from the microphone.
> This would hold true going from left-hand to right-hand or right-hand to
> left-hand, and I wonder a little why the question has arisen in the former
> case only.

> A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
> English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
> Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
> most are careful to use the ECD term first.

Hmmm.  As a person involved with computers, pronounce "*.*"
(I always read that as "star dot star".)

Am I to believe that Fried pronounces LH* as "Left Hands Across"?  Her notation
uses that abbreviation, which I've always read as "star".

I pretty much gave up on saying "Hands Across" when I realized that
experienced people and newcomers alike knew what I meant when I said "star" and
didn't when I said "Hands Across."  Even experienced dancers here wanted to
know "across what?  with who?"  Occasionally if you get a first-timer who's
been contra-dancing you need to fix the wrist-grip hold, but otherwise - well,
calling it "Hands Across" changes a figure they already know into one you have
to teach, and to what good purpose?  (There's a good purpose in "back to back"
instead of "dosido"; "dosido" invites contra people to twirl and then you have
to tell them not to, which isn't particularly welcoming; "dosido" or things
that sound like it are also overloaded with meanings for square dancers.) 

> I don't see any thing wrong with some forms of ornamentation--and I'd be
> surprised if dancers didnt' "ornament" dances ca. 1650-ca. 1800--but this
> particular ornament, at least nowadays, has a contra flavor (like the word
> "star")--so it may not be a good choice for English Country Dance except as
> a joke.

Or when explicitly called for in the instructions for that dance.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:49:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:46:05 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020912144247.00a8bec0-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
>English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
>Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
>most are careful to use the ECD term first.

And as such, to me if taught as a "star"  it is a pack-saddle or wrist grip 
rather than the "hand-shake" hands across

The various terminology, to me, tends to suggest the kind of style that the 
caller in seeking and I "generally" try to follow that teaching (at least 
for while!!)

Yes, I teach hands across and "then" prompt with "star"

Similarly, we can begin a discussion of "hey" versus "reel"!!!

Mike



Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail 
notification list
         <mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net%3E>"Mike 
- remove me from MECD"<mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>

Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing

The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM.

Dancing
         October through May at the Wilmar Center,
                 <http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif>953 
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin
         June through September in front of Memorial Library,
                 <http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif>University 
of Wisconsin-Madison
For more information, contact
         Mike (mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),
         Jean (608-231-1040) or
         Don (608-238-9951)
Website
images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm
no images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm

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<html>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=3><br>
A different, but related, style point: &quot;star&quot; is (to me) a
contra term. The<br>
English Country Dance term is &quot;right hands across&quot; or
&quot;left hands across.&quot;<br>
Some callers use &quot;star&quot; as a prompting shorthand *after*
teaching it--but<br>
most are careful to use the ECD term first.</blockquote><br>
And as such, to me if taught as a &quot;star&quot;&nbsp; it is a
pack-saddle or wrist grip rather than the &quot;hand-shake&quot; hands
across<br><br>
The various terminology, to me, tends to suggest the kind of style that
the caller in seeking and I &quot;generally&quot; try to follow that
teaching (at least for while!!)<br><br>
Yes, I teach hands across and &quot;then&quot; prompt with
&quot;star&quot;<br><br>
Similarly, we can begin a discussion of &quot;hey&quot; versus
&quot;reel&quot;!!!<br><br>
Mike<br><br>
<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail
notification list<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab></font><a href="mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net%3E"><font size=3 color="#00FF00">&quot;Mike
- remove me from MECD&quot;&lt;mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net&gt;<br><br>
</a></i></font><font size=3><b>Madison Wisconsin English Country
Dancing<br><br>
</b><i>The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets<br>
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Dancing <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>October
through May at the Wilmar Center, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif">953
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin</a><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>June
through September in front of Memorial Library, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif">University
of Wisconsin-Madison</a><br>
For more information, contact<br>
</i><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><i>Mike
(mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Jean
(608-231-1040) or <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Don
(608-238-9951)<br>
</i>Website <br>
images<br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm</a><br>
</b>no images<br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm</a><br>
</font></b></html>

--Boundary_(ID_NZgZMWLpgVPcHgbwLW5amA)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:59:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:59:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209121554480.75262-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, M.G. Mudrey, Jr. wrote (in reply to Graham & Alan):

> And as such, to me if taught as a "star"  it is a pack-saddle or wrist grip
> rather than the "hand-shake" hands across

I distinctly remember Ralph Page commenting, after he switched his cigar
to the other side of his mouth to empasize the point, that the wrist-grip
was adopted by New England square and contra dancers after they had seen
the Lithuanian dancers using it during one of the first NEFFA Folk festivals.

Makes you wonder where some of our "traditional" English country dance
movements came from, doesn't it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:00:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEX6WCE9Y8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Mike wrote:

> >A different, but related, style point: "star" is (to me) a contra term. The
> >English Country Dance term is "right hands across" or "left hands across."
> >Some callers use "star" as a prompting shorthand *after* teaching it--but
> >most are careful to use the ECD term first.

> And as such, to me if taught as a "star"  it is a pack-saddle or wrist grip
> rather than the "hand-shake" hands across

But that pack-saddle grip has only been in place in American dance since 
1948 or thereabouts (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance
display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was
cool, and picked it up.

> Similarly, we can begin a discussion of "hey" versus "reel"!

Which, if historically informed, will be even more confusing.  (Contra
invariably says "hey" these days; Early American dancers did three-hand,
four-hand, and six-hand reels; Playford has "hey" (or variant spellings);
Dorset has a four-hand reel; etcetera, etcetera.)

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:06:59 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020912150550.00a7b0f0-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
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>But that pack-saddle grip has only been in place in American dance since 
>1948 or thereabouts (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance
>display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was
>cool, and picked it up.


And in some German dances I have learned it as a backward pack saddle grip 
rather than the frontward grip!

Mike

M.G. Mudrey, Jr.
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey
University of Wisconsin-Extension
3817 Mineral Point Road
Madison, WI 53705-5100
USA

Voice: 608-263-5495
Fax:    608-262-8086
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu

Survey Web Site: http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/

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<html>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=3>But that pack-saddle
grip has only been in place in American dance since 1948 or thereabouts
(according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance<br>
display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it
was<br>
cool, and picked it up.</blockquote><br><br>
And in some German dances I have learned it as a backward pack saddle
grip rather than the frontward grip!<br><br>
Mike<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.<br>
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey<br>
University of Wisconsin-Extension <br>
3817 Mineral Point Road<br>
Madison, WI 53705-5100<br>
USA<br><br>
Voice: 608-263-5495<br>
Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 608-262-8086<br>
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu<br><br>
Survey Web Site:
<a href="http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/" eudora="autourl">http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/</a><br>
</font></i></html>

--Boundary_(ID_ofPvUsWsF+kMDP/jhWdzMQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:14:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:12:39 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF51DE9560.B94CC034-ON85256C32.006E6C01-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
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[To Alan, over Annette's head]:
Hmmm.
Strictly speaking, this: *
is an asterisk, not a star.
So, when I come across LH*, I don't pronounce it "Left-hand star." I just
say, "Bleaah!"
I don't remember what Fried *says* with the words of her mouth in these
cases, and I'm not certain she's consistent. But I am sure she
*disapproves* of the contra-ish turn-outward, whatever her terminology.
Plus, I tend to *explain* "right hands across" to new dancers from scratch
("Extend your right hand to your diagonal...") just so I don't get
wrist-grips, in the same way you resist "dosido" for "back to back."
[To Annette, over Alan's head]:
And you thought this was a simple question! Well, perhaps it is...
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:19:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:21:17 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, eceilidh-AT-
netservs.com, allceilidh-AT-
yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <200209122021.VAA18970-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>
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Since all the various flavours of dance (ECD, (M)ECD, COntra etc started their life over on this side of the pond it may be of interest for you to know what happens in the UK.  

Generally speaking (of course there will be exceptions) the term star is used irrespective of whether it is Playford, contra, traditional, modern, etc.  Star also means the opposite pairs holding hands and not as in modern american contra taking a wrist grip (which we tend to call a millwheel).  Use of the term hands across would probably be considered old fashioned.

There is considerable debate about whether one should turn out and/or clap in Morpeth Rant and other dances.  Because this was stated in the publication of Morpeth Rant it has been assumed that Morpeth Rant was an exception.  This is wrong.  If you look at the field notes of those who collected social dance in the North of England (Q1 C20) you will find that each village had its own tradition.  Thus in village X, all dances with a right and left hand star would be done with a clap and a turn out, in village Y there would be no clap but a turn out etc.  Because the EFDSS only published the odd dance from a village this never became apparent.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:25:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMEY36X99E8Y5LKF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael Barraclough wrote:

> Since all the various flavours of dance (ECD, (M)ECD, COntra etc started
> their life over on this side of the pond it may be of interest for you to know
> what happens in the UK.

Yes, thank you.

> Generally speaking (of course there will be exceptions) the term star is used
> irrespective of whether it is Playford, contra, traditional, modern, etc.  Star
> also means the opposite pairs holding hands and not as in modern american
> contra taking a wrist grip (which we tend to call a millwheel).  

Interestingly, some 19th century American dance manuals use "mill" or
"moulinet" for what I must assume is the handshake star.  So this usage has 
evolved a bit.



> There is considerable debate about whether one should turn out and/or clap in
>Morpeth Rant and other dances.  Because this was stated in the publication of
>Morpeth Rant it has been assumed that Morpeth Rant was an exception.  This is
>wrong.  If you look at the field notes of those who collected social dance in
>the North of England (Q1 C20) you will find that each village had its own
>tradition.  Thus in village X, all dances with a right and left hand star would
>be done with a clap and a turn out, in village Y there would be no clap but a
>turn out etc.  Because the EFDSS only published the odd dance from a village
>this never became apparent.

As one who stated the assumption you mention here, I thank you for this
clarification.

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:32:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:34:00 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "Pack-saddle grip"...
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF580D34BD.FA254007-ON85256C32.0070C534-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As a high-spirited thoroughbred, I resist all attempts to throw
pack-saddles over me as a matter of policy. From *either* direction.
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:34:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:34:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Annette Kirk <akirk200-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020912203418.8428.qmail-AT-
web11702.mail.yahoo.com>
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Thanks to all who replied to my "simple" question.
BTW, I meant either way star-switch: L to R; or R to
L. 

Yes, Alan is correct. The group I dance with comes out
of contra and American & international folkdancing.
Uh-oh...hope I didn't start a thread on why I didn't
include American in "international." 

We are a new group on Long Island and really
appreciate your help. Our closest ECD is 50 miles away
in NYC and is difficult to get to at 7 pm midweek so
I'll be calling on your experience again. And again.


=====
Annette Kirk
23 Jefferson Ave
Northport NY 11768
631-757-3627

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:42:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:42:22 -0400
From: eba-AT-
umich.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Picky, picky...(was Re: Style Question..)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <26852093.1031848942-AT-
OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu>
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--On Thursday, September 12, 2002 4:12 PM -0400 
Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:

> Strictly speaking, this: *
> is an asterisk, not a star.

It is true that it is an asterisk, but it is not true that it is not a 
star, because an asterisk is a specific kind of star, and having its own 
name doesn't remove it from the more general class of objects called 
"star".  It is even implicit in that more specific name (as I'm sure you 
also know) asterisk = "little star" from its Greek origins.

As a word which is easily acquired into dance vocabularly on the basis of 
what suggests as a dance figure, it seems quite reasonable; differences in 
style affect far more than individual figures and it doesn't seem to me 
that it is really associated with a particular style.

The use of "mill" for the same figure in several European languages also is 
a powerful one since in includes the notation of the rotating figure, but 
that usage in English never got well established so far as I know and 
doesn't seem quite as intuitive (perhaps because we're not as accustomed to 
seeing mills in our landscape).  But real stars don't have prongs like our 
images of them do, either.

Eric Arnold
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:18:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:17:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200209122117.g8CLHxG01978-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes:
> 
> I pretty much gave up on saying "Hands Across" when I realized that
> experienced people and newcomers alike knew what I meant when I said "star" and
> didn't when I said "Hands Across."  Even experienced dancers here wanted to
> know "across what?  with who?"  Occasionally if you get a first-timer who's
> been contra-dancing you need to fix the wrist-grip hold, but otherwise - well,
> calling it "Hands Across" changes a figure they already know into one you have
> to teach, and to what good purpose?  (There's a good purpose in "back to back"
> instead of "dosido"; "dosido" invites contra people to twirl and then you have
> to tell them not to, which isn't particularly welcoming; "dosido" or things
> that sound like it are also overloaded with meanings for square dancers.) 

   Just to muddy the waters, so to speak, Jane Hobgood, who co-leads the
Central Illinois English Country Dancers with me, refers to stars/hands-across
as "mills".  That is Cumberland Reel begins with the top 2 couples doing a
right hand mill followed by a left hand mill.  She learned ECD in the 40's
and 50's, so perhaps there has been some changes in terminology over the
years.  I generally use "hand across" in ECD and "star" in contra, just
to help distinguish the two.  In the same way I would say "right and left
through" if calling contra and "2 changes of rights and lefts" in ECD.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:20:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:20:39 +0000 (US/Eastern)
From: Christine Robb <cedar-AT-
interlog.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <E17pcKF-0005se-00-AT-
app6.nasc.inter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but usually find the 
answer before I can hit 'send'.  I came across another example
the other night, and am trying *not* to think of a solution, so I 
can finally click that button.

I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use 
more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with 
much on the spot.  It's a dance for four couples in a square.  
The figure that gave me trouble was "head men cross, then 
head women cross".

Other examples might be the first man starting out in
The Bishop, or having all the men go into the center in a circle
or square.

What are some tips and tricks people use for various 
situations?  I've seen mentions of first and second corners,
right and left diagonals, references to geographical proximity 
to features of the room, and so forth.  Are there others that
people have found useful, particularly ones that don't require
mapping out the dancers' tracks in advance?  I'm usually
working on the fly, and have no idea of what dances I might
choose in advance.

I'm particularly looking for terms which are intuitive, so the
dancers don't have to stop and think, or look around the
room, and also for terms which are concise enough to use
while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
assigning yet more numbers or names).


Thanks,

Christine

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:40:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:39:42 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Alan writes:
>Which, if historically informed, will be even more confusing.  (Contra 
>invariably says "hey" these days; Early American dancers did three-hand,
>four-hand, and six-hand reels; Playford has "hey" (or variant spellings);  
>Dorset has a four-hand reel; etcetera, etcetera.) 

*unhelpfully*

There are 19thc reels which don't involve heys at all.

Susan
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:49:03 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
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Alan writes:
>(There's a good purpose in "back to back"
>instead of "dosido"; "dosido" invites contra people to twirl and then you have

>to tell them not to, which isn't particularly welcoming; 

Two things....

1. there's a reasonable chance that "turn back to back" is a 
different move from "back to back"/"dosido" in the earliest
Playford dances.  Colin Hume and I arrive at pretty close to
the same conclusion about it, and he conveniently wrote it
up in "Playford with a Difference".  I have notes that will
someday be a writeup from a slightly different angle.

2. if by "twirl" you mean to go back to back halfway then sort
of turn single as you do the other half (back to place....I'm
not explaining this well) then that is a legit 19thc variation.
I'd have to look to see if it crossed the water, but it was 
at least in one quadrille manual from 1822 (Strathy, Edinburgh).
I suppose it could be considered appropriate for only a Scottish
interpretation of a French country dance.

3. (okay, three things) Just to complicate matters, several sources
for "Sir Roger de Coverley" use "allemande" as the term for the move
in the dance which is "dosido" in other manuals.  It's unclear 
whether they mean to do a different sort of allemande or whether Wilson
was actually on to something when he diagrammed and described the
allemande as a dosido.

Kazoom.  :)

Susan
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:54:08 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Picky, picky...(was Re: Style Question..)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <OF51DE9560.B94CC034-ON85256C32.006E6C01-AT-
risk.sungard.com> <26852093.1031848942-AT-
OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu>

I am, for some reason, reminded of the following piece of doggerel:

  Mary's little lamb
  upon the grass did frisk.
  But Mary was afraid
  her little *

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:14:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Susan wrote:

> 1. there's a reasonable chance that "turn back to back" is a
> different move from "back to back"/"dosido" in the earliest
> Playford dances.  Colin Hume and I arrive at pretty close to
> the same conclusion about it, and he conveniently wrote it
> up in "Playford with a Difference".  I have notes that will
> someday be a writeup from a slightly different angle.

I'll have to look that up.

> 2. if by "twirl" you mean to go back to back halfway then sort
> of turn single as you do the other half (back to place....I'm
> not explaining this well) then that is a legit 19thc variation.

Nope, not what I mean.  Modern contra dancers often (in do-si-do and sometimes 
in gypsy, which blurs all distinction between the two figures) rotate like a
gyroscope upon their own axis as they orbit the other person, achieving eye
contact only in brief flashes.  (Many also do this during  heys.)

> 3. (okay, three things) Just to complicate matters, several sources
> for "Sir Roger de Coverley" use "allemande" as the term for the move
> in the dance which is "dosido" in other manuals.  It's unclear
> whether they mean to do a different sort of allemande or whether Wilson
> was actually on to something when he diagrammed and described the
> allemande as a dosido.

Oy, allemande - possibly the most overloaded (in the computer language sense)
word in the country/folk dance lexicon.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:41:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:39:58 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> I'm particularly looking for terms which are intuitive, so the
> dancers don't have to stop and think, or look around the
> room, and also for terms which are concise enough to use
> while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
> segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
> assigning yet more numbers or names).

A comment from the floor:
when I attend a dance with gender-reference-free teaching, I generally
find it so seamless that I don't even _notice_, unless I think about it,
that GRF is being used.  I'm sure some of those teachers will chime in
with tips for you--I just wanted to say that they do it so _well_, that
I don't have to stop and think.  I just dance.

Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never remember if I'm a
"moon" or a "star".....

--Deb
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:44:01 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Picky, picky...(was Re: Style Question..)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Then I suppose that


~    is Sharp siding on its side
^     is Fried's chevron siding
|      is Shaw siding
A    is Aluminum siding
V    is vinyl siding.
?      is indeterminant siding


*     is a little star

*   is a big star

=     is lines forward and back...

Great...we are now back to cryptic notation!

mm



--Boundary_(ID_hB2WaZ03bfrZ21vINvW4LA)
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<html>
<font size=3>Then I suppose that<br><br>
<br>
~&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Sharp siding on its side<br>
^&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Fried's chevron siding<br>
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Shaw siding<br>
A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is Aluminum siding<br>
V&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is vinyl siding.<br>
?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is indeterminant siding<br><br>
<br>
*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is a little star<br><br>
</font><font size=5>*&nbsp;&nbsp; is a big star<br><br>
</font><font size=3>=&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is lines forward and
back...<br><br>
Great...we are now back to cryptic notation!<br><br>
mm <br><br>
<br>
</font></html>

--Boundary_(ID_hB2WaZ03bfrZ21vINvW4LA)--
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:50:04 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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mail.mhtc.net>
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At 06:20 PM 9/12/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but usually find the
>answer before I can hit 'send'.  I came across another example
>the other night, and am trying *not* to think of a solution, so I
>can finally click that button.
>
>I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use
>more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with
>much on the spot.  It's a dance for four couples in a square.
>The figure that gave me trouble was "head men cross, then
>head women cross".

The only gender free terminology would be to refer to the geographic position

"left-side head cross"  etc  very cumbersome

Let the dancers form in any order that they wish, but tell them  that you 
will be using conventional terminology as a callers convenience and it does 
not imply gender except in an historical sense.

right-file, left-file does not work, as one has to establish whether one is 
looking up the line or down the line

colors are euphimisms for gender (blue, pink)

I am open to ideas for the ECD community..

mm



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<html>
<font size=3>At 06:20 PM 9/12/2002 +0000, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I've been wanting to ask this for a
while, but usually find the <br>
answer before I can hit 'send'.&nbsp; I came across another example<br>
the other night, and am trying *not* to think of a solution, so I <br>
can finally click that button.<br><br>
I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use <br>
more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with <br>
much on the spot.&nbsp; It's a dance for four couples in a square.&nbsp;
<br>
The figure that gave me trouble was &quot;head men cross, then <br>
head women cross&quot;.</font></blockquote><br>
The only gender free terminology would be to refer to the geographic
position<br><br>
&quot;left-side head cross&quot;&nbsp; <b><i>etc&nbsp; very
cumbersome<br><br>
</i></b>Let the dancers form in any order that they wish, but tell
them&nbsp; that you will be using conventional terminology as a callers
convenience and it does not imply gender except in an historical
sense.<br><br>
right-file, left-file does not work, as one has to establish whether one
is looking up the line or down the line<br><br>
colors are euphimisms for gender (blue, pink)<br><br>
I am open to ideas for the ECD community..<br><br>
mm<br><br>
<br>
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_SC+aaeuzmq+JKsYCO7Ep8g)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:04:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMF7S8XEO48WVZD2-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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References: <E17pcKF-0005se-00-AT-
app6.nasc.inter.net>

Deb wrote:

> A comment from the floor:
> when I attend a dance with gender-reference-free teaching, I generally
> find it so seamless that I don't even _notice_, unless I think about it,
> that GRF is being used.  I'm sure some of those teachers will chime in
> with tips for you--I just wanted to say that they do it so _well_, that
> I don't have to stop and think.  I just dance.

And indeed, global reference can help convey dance structure information
even without it being particularly gender-reference-free.  Nobody really
notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making the 
people in those positions go through gender translation.

It happens that just before the question came up, I'd added a link from the ECD
home page ( http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx ) to a nice
glossary which includes discussions of globally-based calling.  Anyone
interested is invited to check it out.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:34:03 PST
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:33:33 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
quiltr.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05101006b9a6f08a721d-AT-
[192.168.1.101]>
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>So, when I come across LH*, I don't pronounce it "Left-hand star." I just
>say, "Bleaah!"


Interesting.

I see LH in the context of ECD as being Left Hands (with the rest 
being understood as Across etc)

As one totally guilty of having merged all the shorthands of all my 
life trainings and experience, I guess I take it all as it comes.

Mary Beth
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:58:38 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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http://www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose/terms.html

Is a GREAT gender free terminology site......
Thanks for the pointer....(hmmmm.....tells you how long it has been since I 
visited the SLAC ECD pages!)

Will endeavor to incorporate some of the ideas.




>It happens that just before the question came up, I'd added a link from 
>the ECD
>home page ( http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx ) to a nice
>glossary which includes discussions of globally-based calling.  Anyone
>interested is invited to check it out.
>
>-- Alan

--Boundary_(ID_o4o+1dKy4Mjbqgu6Akm71g)
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<html>
<font size=3><a href="http://www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose/terms.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose/terms.html</a><br><br>
Is a GREAT gender free terminology site......<br>
Thanks for the pointer....(hmmmm.....tells you how long it has been since
I visited the SLAC ECD pages!)<br><br>
Will endeavor to incorporate some of the ideas.<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>It happens that just before the
question came up, I'd added a link from the ECD<br>
home page (
<a href="http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx" eudora="autourl">http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx</a>
) to a nice<br>
glossary which includes discussions of globally-based calling.&nbsp; Anyone<br>
interested is invited to check it out.<br><br>
-- Alan</font></blockquote></html>

--Boundary_(ID_o4o+1dKy4Mjbqgu6Akm71g)--
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Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:58:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:58:34 -0700
From: Karsten <karsten-AT-
technotop.com>
Subject: Re: Style Question
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3D80FFFA.8170.4D620D0-AT-
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Alan Winston wrote:
> There is at present no official definition of acceptable style for
> ECD, so the answer you're asking for is more or less a consensus of
> practitioners. Acceptable style is usually very clean - devoid of
> extra twirls, etc.
>
> In right->left transitions, the default behavior I've always seen is
> to turn in 180 degrees.

There are at least two widely appreciated stylistic goals at conflict in 
this transition. Turning in does keep the dancers in the foursome 
from facing fully away from each other but detracts from smooth 
forward flow to a greater degree than turning out does.

There are also at least two practical considerations.

First, if the turn inward is a small curl the dancers end up closer 
together as they start the reverse star, which can be a problem with 
larger dancers or elaborate costumes.

Second, if the turn is more of a pivot than a curl it can be harder on 
the knees.  

In theory both a turn inward and a turn outward should both be 180 
degrees (starting and ending forward motion tangent to the circle) 
but in my experience dancers usually lead the stars, facing 
somewhat toward the center, increasing the angle measure of an 
outward turn and decreasing that of an inward turn.  This being the 
case and all other things being equal, turning-in is therefore faster 
than turning-out.

That seems to be the reason most dancers I see turn-in - they allot 
little to no time for a turn in the first musical phrase, then take the 
quickest turn they can, without consideration for style, to catch up 
with the already started reverse star's musical phrase.  That turn is 
an abrupt inward pivot.

--Karsten
================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:18:22 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>
>I distinctly remember Ralph Page commenting, after he switched his cigar
>to the other side of his mouth to empasize the point, that the wrist-grip
>was adopted by New England square and contra dancers after they had seen
>the Lithuanian dancers using it during one of the first NEFFA Folk festivals.

When I learned to contra dance in Boston in the early 60's, stars were 
still done with hands across grip.  At that time western squares already 
used the wrist grip now favored by contra dancers.  My understanding was 
that it evolved from German dance traditions much earlier than Neffa, 
coming over with early German settlers.    (I think I got this from Jerry 
Helt, - but I'm not sure). I do know some 18th century German dances that 
use wrist grip on the "mill" figure .

Back in the 60's we were careful to keep the regional styles intact.  When 
we did contras, we used hands across stars, when we did squares, we did 
wrist grip.  We used buzz step swings for contras and walk around swings 
for some regions of squares.  Contra dance balances were silent setting 
steps or step-swings-- only Appalacchian dancers chugged, making noise on a 
balance.  Whether we took hands on a right and left through depended on 
where in the US the dance was from.

I have always assumed that contra dances acquired the wrist grip from 
square dancers, mooshing regional styles when contra dance moved out of its 
home environment of New England, and met the styles of other regions.   I 
have trouble believing  the whole country would have gone from hands across 
to wrist grip overnight after seeing one Lithuanian group perform at Neffa, 
but it makes a good story.

Victoria Bestock in Seattle


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 02:33:19 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com>

<<[To Alan, over Annette's head]:
Hmmm.
Strictly speaking, this: *
is an asterisk, not a star.
So, when I come across LH*, I don't pronounce it "Left-hand star." I just
say, "Bleaah!" >>

Little Nell put on her skates
Upon the ice to frisk
Now wasn't she a silly girl
Her little *


Peace,
Paul



================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:11:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209130906030.44656-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Paul / Victoria Bestock wrote:

> have trouble believing  the whole country would have gone from hands across
> to wrist grip overnight after seeing one Lithuanian group perform at Neffa,
> but it makes a good story.

Hadn't meant to imply that.  Just quoting from Ralph's observation of some
dancers in his YWCA weekly dance.  At that time (1950's) I don't recall
any German or German-American or Danish or Danish American groups in the
Boston area.   I was active in organizing the NEFFA performance programs
and would have loved to be able to add these groups to our shows.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:09:04 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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> while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
> segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
> assigning yet more numbers or names).

...
Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never remember if I'm a
"moon" or a "star".....


But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be easy to
remember!
CK


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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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Campbell Kaynor wrote:

> But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be easy to
> remember!
> CK


[loud sound of Disapproval from the List]
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:28:20 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Hands across versus wrist gripping in Contras. .
To: ECD-AT-
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Although I am a youngster so my contra experience only dates into the early
'70s, the oral lore at that time in Western Mass and Southern NH was that
the wrist grip was a style borrowed from the club-style square dancers and
the only ones doing the hands across were those who:
1) learned contra from books or other academic sources
2) dancers who belonged to dance clubs who had static defined ways of
dancing contra (CDS Boston and CDSS were considered such along with the
international FD groups etc...)
3) dancers who were trying to recreate the old-fashioned styles (I still
teach the hands across at contradances as the "old-fashioned star" when it
occurs in some of our newer dances, and it is often the only star I teach
at events like weddings where the entire crowd is new).
4) dancers who were from CT or Boston (which may have been regional or it
may have been for the reasons mentioned above).

This is all hearsay and personal experience from a rather confined
geographical area.
Cammy

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:53:51 -0700
From: Kalia Kliban <kalia-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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Christine Robb wrote:

> I was teaching Hunsdon House, and would have liked to use
> more gender-free terminology, but wasn't able to come up with
> much on the spot.  It's a dance for four couples in a square.
> The figure that gave me trouble was "head men cross, then
> head women cross".

So after much list discussion and bandying of terminology
and pointing-to of web pages that are chock-full of useful
information that answers _other_ questions, no-one has
actually answered Christine's question.  Rooting through the
H&R site, the closest I could come to a solution was to
treat the 4 couple set as a small circle, designating the
"men" and "women" as ones and twos, but it's much the same
issue as with "moons" and "stars".  You'd just be
substituting one noun for another, without really changing
the structure of the call itself.  I've been waiting to hear
Graham or Chris or Brooke chime in on this one.  Any pearls
of wisdom, folks?

Kalia

-- 
Kalia Kliban
kalia-AT-
sbcglobal.net  <--- Note new email address!

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From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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In regards to Hunsdon House specifically, I define and then use "first
diagonal" and "second diagonal." I do the same in Picking Of Sticks and
many others. Where "corners" or gender descriptions are ambiguous or take
longer for dancers to grasp.

================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:24:47 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
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In the specific situation at hand, i.e., square, head couples, men doing X,
women doing X, I would say this:
"Inside the head couples--those are the couples either facing me or with
their backs to me--you have *right* diagonal people and *left* diagonal
people. OK, right diagonals change places. Now left diagonals change."

And when prompting: "Heads...right diagonals change...and lefts..."

Second time through the dance: "Heads...diagonal changes..."

You're in much more trouble with a dance like Hyde Park, where men weave
'round women and then women 'round men. What we usually end up doing is
saying, "Your partner is beside you. One of you partner on the right hand:
you're the left-side dancers. One of you has partner on the left: you're
the right-side dancers. Left-side dancers will weave in and out..." and so
forth. A little cumbersome: good to demonstrate.

To me, The Bishop is quite different: that's where geographical markers
help. "#1 dancer on the menhir side: cast..."

Some dances that ask for ballroom hold, waltzing, swing-and-change, &c. are
nearly impossible to do this way--or just quite unrewarding. So, I don't
attempt to teach *everything*.

Others' mileage may vary--Brooke may well have more to add.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:26:14 PST
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:25:41 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Calling Hilary
To: EngCountryDance <ECD-AT-
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Hilary would you please contact me off list re Halsway event.
Alan Corkett

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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:39:05 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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Quoth Alan:
>Nobody really
>notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
>say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making the
>people in those positions go through gender translation.

But....but....first corners would mean the first lady and the
second gentleman.

:)

Susan
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:02:29 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
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Subject: ...
To: ECD-AT-
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"Quoth Alan:
>Nobody really
>notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
>say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making
the
>people in those positions go through gender translation.

But....but....first corners would mean the first lady and the
second gentleman.

:)"

In Regency dances, I don't doubt it. However, *if* calling for a
contemporary ECD crowd, trained in the Sharp/Shaw/Shimer and others
tradition, this is not at all their expectation--and one would have to
explain the difference, or expect collisions.



Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Fw: Calling Hilary HERBERT
To: EngCountryDance <ECD-AT-
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Hilary would you please contact me off list re Halsway event.
Alan Corkett



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From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Graham writes:
(re. differing definitions of first corners)
>In Regency dances, I don't doubt it. However, *if* calling for a
>contemporary ECD crowd, trained in the Sharp/Shaw/Shimer and others
>tradition, this is not at all their expectation--and one would have to
>explain the difference, or expect collisions

I'm aware of the MECD tradition, and I never call MECD so wouldn't
expect a problem except when MECD people assume that theirs is the
only way of doing things and try to apply that assumption in
inappropriate venues.

Having to constantly adjust to the assumptions of the majority (who
rarely make an effort to adjust the other direction) is just one of
those things people in a minority have to put up with.  It does
seem a little, um, humorless of you to not even allow me to make a
joke about it, though.

Susan
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:23:36 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: OK, I'm being a pill.
To: ECD-AT-
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Susan's right...I was a little humorless: my apologies.
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:19:25 +0100
From: francis2 <francis2-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.Because that is
what we all are wether we like it or not.
Francis2. A man and proud to be called that in any dance.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Campbell Kaynor" <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology


>
> > while calling during the dance.  I want to avoid terms which
> > segregate the dancers (such as bare arms and armbands, or
> > assigning yet more numbers or names).
>
> ...
> Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never remember if I'm a
> "moon" or a "star".....
>
>
> But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be easy to
> remember!
> CK
>
>

================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Francis wrote:

> This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
> call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.

Globally-based calling, as I've said in this very discussion, can benefit even
places where you refer to the people in one line as men and people in the other
line as ladies or women, since it often lets you tell more people their roles
in fewer words, encourages them to think about the big picture of the dance,
and suggests that everyone is an active dancer rather than passively having
things done to them.

"First corners turn two hands"

is in many ways preferable to 

"First man turns second woman two hands"  (pace, Susan).

This is true even for dance clubs consisting entirely of one-man one-woman
couples who only dance together.  In the US, at least, most social ECD - as
distinct from performance - is done in venues where anyone can pay their
admission and there's no guarantee that numbers of men and women will be even.
(For some reason, special events may be different, but your regular dance
series probably makes no attempt to gender balance.)

>Because that is
> what we all are wether we like it or not.

People of the same sex will dance together rather than sit out; that puts
someone in a line of a sex other than the one they brought in the door. Your
simple, logical, calling of men MEN and women WOMEN founders immediately;
you're calling men and women MEN.  It's not ridiculous to discuss other
alternatives. Would you rather that, for the sake of logical clarity, women
without male partners for a particular dance should just stay on the sidelines? 
Or is a woman dancing in the man's line a MAN, and she should just shut up and
take it like a man.

All of the above applies to, if you will, "gender-included" dancing.  There are
some excellent reasons that non-gender-based dancing should exist, including
primarily that it gets more people dancing, even ones who are uncomfortable
with traditional gender roles.

> Francis2. A man and proud to be called that in any dance.

-- Alan (A man, and happy to be called whatever makes the dance work best)


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
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From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Magic moments
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I wonder what your magic moments are.
I don't mean "anything - with my special partner" but rather those where a
particular dance figure or combination of figures just sends you to
dancers' heaven. I nominate 
a) the poussettes in Orleans Baffled, and 
b) the path of the second lady from the end of one sequence of Zephyrs
   and Flora to the beginning of the next.        
What are yours?

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

   
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From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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Or, like Ralph Page originally called "all Republicans - come back"...
It is a rare occasion when there are more men than women dancing, but a
frequent one where the ladies are dancing the man's part or are left out. I
call them "honorary men"... it works.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny
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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 02:26:50 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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<<This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.Because that is
what we all are wether we like it or not.>>

But not, necessarily, what we dance. Gender-free terminology arose for many
reasons, probably deserving a dissertation, but one of them is trying to
deal with the simple fact that the person dancing the man's role may be,
biologically, a woman, and vice versa. One way to deal with that is to
simply say, "Okay, if you're dancing the man's role, I'm calling you a man,
regardless of the contents of your chromosomes, and if you're dancing the
woman's role, I'm calling you a woman, ditto." That's what I usually do in
our not-very-gender-balanced group. Another way is to invent new names for
the roles that aren't the same as sex designations, which avoids the
imprecision of telling Rebecca, Anne and Sally "Okay, now you men..."

Which way's "better"? Arguments have raged about that for years, and I don't
particularly want to get into them, but I think the discussion is far from
ridiculous.

Peace,
Paul

PS Of course, there's the use of "man" as referring to the whole human race,
a separate discussion, about which I'll simply quote an old dancing friend,
"Any construction that allows such sentences as, 'Man is a mammal; he bears
his young alive from his womb and suckles them at his breasts' is suspect."

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Why not go Scottish and call it a Right or Left hand "wheel"
francis2
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: M.G. Mudrey, Jr. 
  To: ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
  Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:06 PM
  Subject: Re: Style Question..


    But that pack-saddle grip has only been in place in American dance since 1948 or thereabouts (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance
    display team saw a Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was
    cool, and picked it up.


  And in some German dances I have learned it as a backward pack saddle grip rather than the frontward grip!

  Mike

  M.G. Mudrey, Jr.
  Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey
  University of Wisconsin-Extension 
  3817 Mineral Point Road
  Madison, WI 53705-5100
  USA

  Voice: 608-263-5495
  Fax:    608-262-8086
  Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu

  Survey Web Site: http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/



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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why not go Scottish and call it a Right or Left 
hand "wheel"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>francis2</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A href="mailto:mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu" 
  title=mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
  href="mailto:ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" 
  title=ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:06 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Style Question..</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite type="cite"><FONT size=3>But that pack-saddle 
    grip has only been in place in American dance since 1948 or thereabouts 
    (according to Dan Pearl, anyway); an American dance<BR>display team saw a 
    Danish dance display team do it at NEFFA, thought it was<BR>cool, and picked 
    it up.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And in some German dances I have learned it as a 
  backward pack saddle grip rather than the frontward 
  grip!<BR><BR>Mike<BR><X-SIGSEP>
  <P></X-SIGSEP><I>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.<BR>Wisconsin Geological and Natural History 
  Survey<BR>University of Wisconsin-Extension <BR>3817 Mineral Point 
  Road<BR>Madison, WI 53705-5100<BR>USA<BR><BR>Voice: 
  608-263-5495<BR>Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 608-262-8086<BR>Email: 
  mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu<BR><BR>Survey Web Site: <A href="http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/" 
  eudora="autourl">http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/</A><BR></FONT></I></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:11:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:13:31 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D83602B.A0968A41-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <OF8B50476B.FBB793C3-ON85256C33.00531BCD-AT-
biogen.com> <000201c25b6b$84108a60$38463c3e-AT-
oemcomputer> <002401c25bc0$18633b00$e568550c-AT-
paulstam>

Paul Stamler wrote:
> Another way is to invent new names for
> the roles that aren't the same as sex designations . . .

I once played a summer-camp dance with a well-known California contra dance
caller named Erik Hoffman.  Erik had the dancers, who were almost entirely
kids, line up without regard to sex; he just said "get in two lines facing
each other."  Then he pointed at one of the lines and said "Ok, what do you
want to be called?"  They all shouted stuff, and he said "I heard
bumblebees.  You're the bumblebees."  Then he did the same with the other
line, who ended up being called something like "bears."  Then he did
hands-four-and-cross-over and proceeded to call some simple contras, using
"bumblebees" and "bears" rather than "men" and "women."  This may be a
little too cutesy for grown-ups, and it does require some advanced mental
agility on the part of the caller, but it worked great in this case.

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:53:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender free calling
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <14f.140cd1a4.2ab5260d-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 14/9/02 3:00:20 pm, system-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
writes:

>Or is a woman dancing in the man's line a MAN, and she should just shut
>up and
>take it like a man.
In our group in Edinburgh, yes, that is the case; just as, equally, when, as 
sometimes happens, two men dance together the one dancing on the side of the 
women/ladies takes instruction as one of them.
    However, I believe this is not nearly as delicate a matter this side of 
the Atlantic.
                                    Nicolas - not really wishing to enter 
this discussion!

Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland.   <A HREF="aol://1722:chathelp">
</A>http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:30:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020915003000.86240.qmail-AT-
web13802.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
wrote:
> Unlike dances where names are assigned...I can never
> remember if I'm a "moon" or a "star".....
But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys
Ed should be easy to remember!

We didn't use "shirts" and "skins" in *girls'* PE!!

Lyrl

PS - Actually, we were forced to wear blue one-piece
outfits. 




__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:33:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:32:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1a2.8a39cbe.2ab55968-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Graham wrote:

 >In the specific situation at hand, i.e., square, head couples,
 >men doing X, women doing X, I would say this:
 >"Inside the head couples--those are the couples either facing me
 >or with their backs to me--you have *right* diagonal people and
 >*left* diagonal people. OK, right diagonals change places. Now
 >left diagonals change."

I hope you make it *very* clear whether by "right diagonals" you
mean the people standing on the right of each couple (i.e., what
we MECD'ers would call "second corners") or the other folks, who
can look diagonally to their right to see their corner ("first
corners"). Either seems to me a reasonable assumption.

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:47:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:47:00 -0700
From: Kalia Kliban <kalia-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D84B984.6C88882B-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <1a2.8a39cbe.2ab55968-AT-
aol.com>

DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> 
> Graham wrote:
> 
>  >In the specific situation at hand, i.e., square, head couples,
>  >men doing X, women doing X, I would say this:
>  >"Inside the head couples--those are the couples either facing me
>  >or with their backs to me--you have *right* diagonal people and
>  >*left* diagonal people. OK, right diagonals change places. Now
>  >left diagonals change."
> 
> I hope you make it *very* clear whether by "right diagonals" you
> mean the people standing on the right of each couple (i.e., what
> we MECD'ers would call "second corners") or the other folks, who
> can look diagonally to their right to see their corner ("first
> corners"). Either seems to me a reasonable assumption.

While for the most part the global terminology is more
streamlined than conventional calls, sometimes dramatically
so, in this case it's hard to think of anything more compact
and informative than "head men" or "head ladies".  I agree
with Dave that in a square set the use of "diagonals" is
open to a great deal of interpretation, and wouldn't be
intuitively obvious, for the reasons he mentioned above, and
also for the possibility of looking to one's
corner/neighbor, who is also on a diagonal. It would take
some serious deftness on the part of the caller to insert
the explanation of precisely which diagonals were meant
without bogging everything down.  If ever there was a person
able to explain his way through these semantic difficulties
with grace it would be Graham I'm sure, but for this
situation, I, linguistic peasant that I am, may have to
stick with "head ladies and men" for just a little bit
longer.

Kalia 

-- 
Kalia Kliban
kalia-AT-
sbcglobal.net  <--- Note new email address!

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:09:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:08:02 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020915150612.00b9e3a0-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
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David... not clear

>I hope you make it *very* clear whether by "right diagonals" you
>mean the people standing on the right of each couple (i.e., what
>we MECD'ers would call "second corners") or the other folks, who
>can look diagonally to their right to see their corner ("first
>corners"). Either seems to me a reasonable assumption.


I always thought that first corners were the right diagonal, second the 
left, third, etc continuing counter clockwise.

Draw me picture based on both two couple set and three couple set.

mm


Please send me an email if you wish to be moved from this mail notification 
list
         "Mike - remove me from MECD"<mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>

Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing

The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM.

Dancing
         October through May at the Wilmar Center,
                 953 Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin
         June through September in front of Memorial Library,
                 University of Wisconsin-Madison,
For more information, contact
         Mike (mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),
         Jean (608-231-1040) or
         Don (608-238-9951)
Website
images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm
no images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm

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<html>
<font size=3>David... not clear<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I hope you make it *very* clear
whether by &quot;right diagonals&quot; you<br>
mean the people standing on the right of each couple (i.e., what<br>
we MECD'ers would call &quot;second corners&quot;) or the other folks,
who<br>
can look diagonally to their right to see their corner (&quot;first<br>
corners&quot;). Either seems to me a reasonable
assumption.</font></blockquote><br><br>
I always thought that first corners were the right diagonal, second the
left, third, etc continuing counter clockwise.<br><br>
Draw me picture based on both two couple set and three couple
set.<br><br>
mm<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font size=3><i>Please send me an email if you wish to be moved from this
mail notification list<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>&quot;Mike
- remove me from MECD&quot;&lt;mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net&gt;<br><br>
</i><b>Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing<br><br>
</b><i>The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets<br>
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Dancing <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>October
through May at the Wilmar Center, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>953
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>June
through September in front of Memorial Library, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>University
of Wisconsin-Madison,<br>
For more information, contact<br>
&nbsp;</i><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><i>Mike
(mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Jean
(608-231-1040) or <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Don
(608-238-9951)<br>
</i>Website <br>
images<br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm</a><br>
</b>no images<br>
<b><a href="http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm" eudora="autourl">http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm</a><br>
</font></b></html>

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:42:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:42:26 -0700
From: Janet <jimjanet-AT-
cox.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002401c25cf8$673c11f0$9865fea9-AT-
CX980032A>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a 3 couple set, for example, Prince William, would the first diagonals be the 1st man and 3rd women position for the corner partner turns (Oops, I slipped a little Scottish calling into the mix at the end).
Janet

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In a 3 couple set, for example, Prince William, 
would the first diagonals be the 1st man and 3rd women position for the corner 
partner turns (Oops, I slipped a little Scottish calling into the mix at the 
end).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Janet</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_mESqxFyoYU52NkWBtk11nA)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:52:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:54:25 -0700
From: Robin Hayden <robinhayden-AT-
earthlink.net>
Subject: threat to Pinewoods
To: ecd list <ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3D8555F2.7E5F72AF-AT-
earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Friends,

This is a message for those of you who know Pinewoods well; many of you
probably got a letter from Pinewoods Camp, Inc, with much of the
information below -- however, you probably also noticed that it said the
deadline for action was Sept 9, the date most of us received the
letter.  In fact THERE IS STILL TIME TO ACT.

It's important for the credibility of our response that letters come
from people who actually do know Pinewoods, so all of you sympathetic
altruists our there restrain yourselves.  :)

I'm forwarding this from Paul and Marcelle Lipke, articulate social
activists who live and dance here in Western Massachusetts.

Robin Hayden

* * *

Dear Pinewoods Camper,

Please help oppose the proposed development of a very special property
very close to Pinewoods, detailed below. If it occurs, Pinewood's quiet
and seclusion will largely disappear. We hope  you will write a letter
this THIS WEEK BEFORE THE 10/20/02 DEADLINE HAS PASSED.  A letter you
can copy or adapt will be found below.

Please Help Make Makepeace Undergo Environmental Review. Since January
2002, the Makepeace company has focused on developing 1,800 acres of
land in Plymouth on the south and west side of Halfway Pond and on a
large block of land along the Agawam River that is bisected by Wareham
Road. These 1,800 acres were being reviewed in a public workshop process
with the Plymouth Planning Board. However, on July 31st, the company
announced that it would do as-of-right development on a 60 acre portion
of  the 1,800 acres on the south side of Halfway Pond Road just past the
white church. The company subsequently announced that it would grant the
houselots  on the 60 acres deeded shorefront access to Halfway Pond. The
Makepeace  Company is trying to avoid any environmental review of its
proposed  development.

The Wildlands Trust, Coalition for Buzzards Bay, and the Conservation
Law Foundation with 10 local citizens have filed a petition with the
Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act (MEPA) office asking for
environmental review of the entire 1,800 acres, including the sixty
acres  proposed for immediate development, prior to any development
activity.

We urge you to write in your own words to

Jay Wickersham, Director of MEPA, 251 Causeway St., Suite 900, Boston,
MA 02114 (fax 617-626-1181) to ask that  the Executive Office of
Environmental Affairs require Makepeace to undertake an environmental
review prior to developing the 60 acres or any other  portion of
the1,800 acres.

Points to make in your letter urging environmental review under the MEPA

regulations:

· This area includes part of the largest unprotected pine barrens in the
world;

· There are known rare species in the area, including Plymouth redbelly
turtles, rare mussels, rare plants, and rare moths. There may well be
rare species on the 60 acres.

· There are known Native American archeological sites on the 1,800 acres
and may well be an important site on the 60 acres proposed for immediate
development.

· The area is entirely within the second largest sole source aquifer in
Massachusetts, and the area proposed for development is within the known
drawdown area for water supply wells.

· If you have ever walked the area, talk about how beautiful and
pristine the area is and how Makepeace should not be allowed to violate
this without review.

· If you live in the area, have a summer home, or regularly visit,
mention your relationship to the area and how important the character of
the area is to you.

· It would be very helpful if you sent a copy of your letter to the
Plymouth selectmen and, if you live in Massachusetts, to your state
representative and senator, asking for their help.

Ken Tavares, Chairman, Board of Selectmen, 11 Lincoln St., Plymouth, MA
02360, Fax: 508-830-4140

To find who your state representatives and senator are go to:
www.wheredoivotema.com/electedofficials.php

If you don't have time to draft your own letter, here's one you can
adapt:

Mr. Jay Wickersham, Director of MEPA,
251 Causeway St., Suite 900,
Boston, MA 02114

9/15/02

Dear Director Wickersham

Please act to demonstrate that EOEO/MEPA is a forward thinking agency
with interests of the people and natural capital of the Commonwealth as
its first priorities. I urge you to require Makepeace to undertake a
full environmental review prior to developing their 60 acres on the
south side of Halfway Pond Road --or any other portion of the 1,800
acres they are proposing to develop in Plymouth.

As you are well aware, the area under proposed development is part of
the largest unprotected pine barrens in the world, with known rare
species such as redbelly turtles, and rare mussels, plants, and moths.
Known and suspected Native American archeological sites would be
destroyed. Most importantly, the area is entirely within a critical sole
source aquifer, the 2nd largest in Massachusetts, and is fully within
the known drawdown area for local wells. If MEPA will not act to review
(and presumably protect) a site of this importance, what will it review
and protect?

I am a frequent visitor to the area immediately adjacent to the 60 acres
under discussion. If it is destroyed by 3 acre lot development under
Makepeace's plans, I will probably stop visiting the area. Instead of
speaking glowingly of its pristine beauty and it's quiet, I will have
only sad things to say. I will have only a memory of what could have
been saved but was destroyed out of greed, political gamesmanship, and
lack of foresight.  Many organizations and individuals have worked
together to try repeatedly to purchase the land from Makepeace; rather
like Enron they appear only to be interested in lining the pockets of a
few people as much and as fast as possible, at the expense of the many.
They are in a hurry and playing political games with our shared
priceless heritage, and our childrens' futures. You have the opportunity
and obligation to stop such idiocy.

I simply cannot imagine a place less appropriate for the unsustainable
actions Makepeace is proposing. If Makepeace is allowed by MEPA to go
ahead without review, I ask that you do me the courtesy of sending a
personal letter justifying the decision with respect to MEPA's mission
and enabling legislation. --I actually believe such a letter cannot be
written in an honest way; MEPA's obligation in such matters is very
clear.

Respectfully,

Marcelle and/or Paul Lipke
31 South Street
Montague, MA 01351
(413) 367-2731

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:56:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:56:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Baltimore Playford Ball Oct 19
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4e.1124a641.2ab6a25d-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi folks, 

In response to several queries: 
Yes, there still is room for you at the Baltimore Playford Ball.  
We do not gender balance.
We will prompt the dances the first 2-3 times through.

The Ball will be Saturday, October 19, at Church of the Redeemer, Charles and 
Melrose Sts. in Baltimore. Music will be by The Flying Romanos. You can 
obtain a pdf of the registration flyer at www.bfms.org/eventIndex.html. Send 
it in by Sept 19 and save $2. For more info, e-mail us at playford-AT-
bfms.org. 

Hope to see many of you in Baltimore on Oct 19!

Carl and Diane Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:02:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:01:31 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D85498C.6A17449D-AT-
opendoor.com>
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biogen.com> <000201c25b6b$84108a60$38463c3e-AT-
oemcomputer>

Chris and I just got back from a long weekend at the coast - here come several
replies...

francis2 wrote:

> This 'gender free 'so called discussion is ridiculous. What is wrong with
> call ing men MEN and ladies LADIES or Women if you so wish.

Gosh...do you really want to force even numbers of each so you can avoid
calling women men (or visa versa)?

I think there is great value in using language that helps people to dance
together if they are both men or both women (and not just because there are
uneven numbers but because they choose to dance together!) or one of each
dancing on the nontraditional side for fun.

Brooke in Ashland OR


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:23:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:23:24 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D854EAC.F0F5CE04-AT-
opendoor.com>
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mail.mhtc.net>

more thoughts from Brooke...

"M.G. Mudrey, Jr." wrote:

> Let the dancers form in any order that they wish, but tell them  that
> you will be using conventional terminology as a callers convenience
> and it does not imply gender except in an historical sense.

While it might be more welcoming to invite people to dance where they
wish, it still has the disadvantage of making (some) people translate.

> right-file, left-file does not work, as one has to establish whether
> one is looking up the line or down the line

Actually I have found it to work quite well. You need to take a just a
minute to define terms if the group is unfamiliar (standing facing your
partner in a set, right file has right shoulder to the top - likewise if
you are standing next to your partner facing the top, right file is on
the right of partner). Yes I know there are always a few dyslexic
dancers in the room and helpful strategies vary. Room geography can be
very helpful - Gene Murrow used hillside and porchside with great effect
this summer at Mendocino English week.

> colors are euphimisms for gender (blue, pink)

I have found that anything not intrinsic to the set (right file, left
file) or room (hillside, porchside) just adds another layer for dancers
to translate/confuse


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:55:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:55:46 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D855642.BDB785A5-AT-
opendoor.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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CX980032A>

No - we use diagonals for groups of 4 (the 4 in a duple or top 2 couples
in longways set of 3 couples or top and bottom 4somes in longways set of
4 couples...). We use the term corners the same way they are used in
Scottish country dance.

So for Prince William...we would not say '1st left file/man/hillside
turn 3rd right file/woman/porchside while 1st right file...' We would
say '1s turn your first corner' (they start the turn from top place
which is a slight complication in this particular dance no matter how
it's called, but the concept works). This is perfect example of what
Alan W was talking about when he said that using global terminolgy is
good practice regardless of your feelings about gender language - just
look at the syllables removed!

Brooke

Janet wrote:

> In a 3 couple set, for example, Prince William, would the first
> diagonals be the 1st man and 3rd women position for the corner partner
> turns (Oops, I slipped a little Scottish calling into the mix at the
> end).Janet

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:57:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Pearl <daniel_pearl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020916035712.18500.qmail-AT-
web12305.mail.yahoo.com>
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> From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
> Hadn't meant to imply that.  Just quoting from Ralph's observation of
> some
> dancers in his YWCA weekly dance.  At that time (1950's) I don't
> recall
> any German or German-American or Danish or Danish American groups in
> the
> Boston area.   I was active in organizing the NEFFA performance
> programs
> and would have loved to be able to add these groups to our shows.
1944: Lithuanian Folk Dance Group
      Swedish Folk Dance Club
1945: Lithuanian Folk Dance Group
      Finnish Dances (Quincy Co-op Folk Dancers)
      Swedish Folk Dance Club
1946: Bavarian Schuhplattler (Hanover NH Group)
      Swedish Dances (Unity Club-Vasa Order of America-Cambridge)
      Finnish Dances (Quincy...)
1947: Swedish Dances (Unity...)
      Lithuanian Folk Dance Group of Boston
      Swedish Folkdance Group of Boston
no Festival in 1948
1949: Lithuanian FD Group of Boston - Juniors/Seniors
      Swedish FD Group of Boston
1950: Lithuanian FD Group
      Latvian FD Ensemble
      Swedish FD Group
      Latvian FD Group "Rota"
1951: Latvian Dances (Jantrais Paris, Sikais Dancis, Perkon Deja)
      Lithuanian (Kelvelis, Suktines, Mikita, Ruguicia, Zekelis,
Malunas)
      Swedish (Dal Dans, Skrolot, Sjallnas Polska)

No mention of Danish.

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:58:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:58:45 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D856505.653F79FE-AT-
opendoor.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <OF3A3362FA.CE5F4E74-ON85256C33.0063FE95-AT-
risk.sungard.com>

In a square set (or a Sicillian circle for that matter) the geography of 1st
and 2nd diagonal remains the same as within a duple (or top two couples in
triple, set of three couples...). Your partner is next to you rather than
across from you but once you get people to see the relationships of the four
people (eg head couples) it falls together rather easily. Here are the
relationships: someone across from you (partner in duple or opposite in
square/Sicillian), someone next to you (neighbor in duple or partner in
square/Sicillian) and someone diagonally across from you (your diagonal).

In a square set there are two groups of these foursomes - head couples and
side couples - so you can have 'heads, 1st diagonals change, 2nd diagonals
change; sides the same' and you can have something like '1st diagonals right
hands across' (star, mill or what have you).

Graham uses right and left diagonal rather than 1st and 2nd - both work and
have some drawbacks (dyslexia issues versus having an assigned number being
what I see as the primary challenges).

To move to Graham's Hyde Park example, I would say 1st diagonals weave... This
avoids the chief challenge I see with what Graham does which is that sometimes
the same position is called a right diagonal and at other times a left hand
person. (In H&R groups in Oregon we will use 1st diagonal and 'lefties' as
synonomous terms).

This is a lot easier to explain and do with bodies in a room.

Brooke


Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:

> In the specific situation at hand, i.e., square, head couples, men doing X,
> women doing X, I would say this:
> "Inside the head couples--those are the couples either facing me or with
> their backs to me--you have *right* diagonal people and *left* diagonal
> people. OK, right diagonals change places. Now left diagonals change."

(snip)

>
>
> You're in much more trouble with a dance like Hyde Park, where men weave
> 'round women and then women 'round men. What we usually end up doing is
> saying, "Your partner is beside you. One of you partner on the right hand:
> you're the left-side dancers. One of you has partner on the left: you're
> the right-side dancers. Left-side dancers will weave in and out..." and so
> forth. A little cumbersome: good to demonstrate.

(snip)

> Others' mileage may vary--Brooke may well have more to add.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:49:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:49:02 -0700
From: Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100300b9ab1fb7ddfc-AT-
[166.84.193.89]>
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References: <E17pwHR-0002f5-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>

>Quoth Alan:
>>Nobody really
>>notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
>>say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making the
>>people in those positions go through gender translation.
>
>But....but....first corners would mean the first lady and the
>second gentleman.
>
>:)
>
>Susan

Not in the usual contemporary ECD. I seem to recall an earlier
discussion involving this, but to be clear -- are you saying that
historical (and if so, _what_ precise historical period?) sources
name the "first corners" as 1st woman and second man? I have never
in any ECD venue I have been involved in heard your usage, and
would be totally disoriented by it. (This is not intended to be
confrontational -- I am just assuring you that I would be totally
flummoxed by your usage, unless it were clearly and explicitly
detailed during teaching [and even then, I'd probably revert in
dancing to the opposite usage.])
================================================================================
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Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:06:17 -0700
From: Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ...
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100301b9ab219a4f62-AT-
[208.201.230.81]>
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>Graham writes:
>(re. differing definitions of first corners)
>>In Regency dances, I don't doubt it. However, *if* calling for a
>>contemporary ECD crowd, trained in the Sharp/Shaw/Shimer and others
>>tradition, this is not at all their expectation--and one would have to
>>explain the difference, or expect collisions
>
>I'm aware of the MECD tradition, and I never call MECD so wouldn't
>expect a problem except when MECD people assume that theirs is the
>only way of doing things and try to apply that assumption in
>inappropriate venues.
>
>Having to constantly adjust to the assumptions of the majority (who
>rarely make an effort to adjust the other direction) is just one of
>those things people in a minority have to put up with.  It does
>seem a little, um, humorless of you to not even allow me to make a
>joke about it, though.

Umm, Susan, your "joke" assumes people are _aware_ of the difference.
And your comments about "majority" and "minority" are highly context-
dependent. If I, as a newcomer to a dance you were calling, heard
"first corners" without any clue that it meant what _I_ understand
as "second corners", then indeed as Graham noted, there might well
be a collision. Through no fault of mine (or yours -- save possibly
the responsibility to acculturate newcomers to what is, after all,
a totally arbitrary set of conventions.)

You seem to assume that an "M"ECD dancer would not be willing to
adjust to your context (that, at least, is how I read your rather
nasty comment about "rarely make an effort to adjust"). But I have
to have a clue that a "common" vocabulary item is used differently,
or I haven't got a _chance_ to adjust. Please do not assume malice,
arrogance or stupidity when a cultural difference is actually to
blame. I assure you that I would soon understand that there was a
problem if everyone in the room acted in what I thought was the
"wrong" way -- but it might still take a note from a sympathetic
caller to keep me from wanting to fall through the floor or just
leave the hall in shame at my obvious, but totally unintentional,
gaffe.

Michael
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:56:53 PST
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:56:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ...
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMJQG03PL695MM5N-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Michael Siemens writes:

<quoting Susan>

>Graham writes:
>(re. differing definitions of first corners)
>>In Regency dances, I don't doubt it. However, *if* calling for a
>>contemporary ECD crowd, trained in the Sharp/Shaw/Shimer and others
>>tradition, this is not at all their expectation--and one would have to
>>explain the difference, or expect collisions
>

<Susan>

>I'm aware of the MECD tradition, and I never call MECD so wouldn't
>expect a problem except when MECD people assume that theirs is the
>only way of doing things and try to apply that assumption in
>inappropriate venues.
>
>Having to constantly adjust to the assumptions of the majority (who
>rarely make an effort to adjust the other direction) is just one of
>those things people in a minority have to put up with.  It does
>seem a little, um, humorless of you to not even allow me to make a
>joke about it, though.

<Michael>

>Umm, Susan, your "joke" assumes people are _aware_ of the difference.

Her joke was originally directed at me; Susan knows I'm the house caller for
the Bay Area English Regency Society, so the context is the Regency period.
(Or close to it, anyway, like 1801.  If you turn to your copy of The Playford
Ball, you'll notice that "The Northdown Waltz" explicitly says that the first
lady and second man are the corners that move first.  (And the modern
interpretation explicitly makes that into first man and second woman.  I don't
think you often find "first corners" - that is, the words - in dance manuals.))


>And your comments about "majority" and "minority" are highly context-
>dependent. If I, as a newcomer to a dance you were calling, heard
>"first corners" without any clue that it meant what _I_ understand
>as "second corners", then indeed as Graham noted, there might well
>be a collision. Through no fault of mine (or yours -- save possibly
>the responsibility to acculturate newcomers to what is, after all,
>a totally arbitrary set of conventions.)

There are certainly more MECDers than people doing more straightforwardly
reconstructed ECD, so MECD is a majority.

>You seem to assume that an "M"ECD dancer would not be willing to
>adjust to your context (that, at least, is how I read your rather
>nasty comment about "rarely make an effort to adjust"). But I have
>to have a clue that a "common" vocabulary item is used differently,
>or I haven't got a _chance_ to adjust. Please do not assume malice,
>arrogance or stupidity when a cultural difference is actually to
>blame. I assure you that I would soon understand that there was a
>problem if everyone in the room acted in what I thought was the
>"wrong" way -- but it might still take a note from a sympathetic
>caller to keep me from wanting to fall through the floor or just
>leave the hall in shame at my obvious, but totally unintentional,
>gaffe.

Why do you assume that Susan doesn't tell people at her dance classes what  her
terminology means?  I define my terms at my dance classes, and I've still
occasionally gotten arguments.  (If you Regency dance in Los Angeles you'll
have been taught that siding is Sharp siding except not quite as parenthetical
and without much eye contact.  I tend to teach shoulder-to-shoulder siding. 
I've had people tell me I'm _wrong_.  [Where I'm wrong is to do siding at a
"Regency" dance at all, but oh well.]  So I have certainly seen examples of
people refusing to adjust and taking anything contrary to their experience to
date as wrong.  I won't argue with them, and have had good luck with "that's
how we do it here" or "that's how we're doing it tonight" or "indulge me" (in a
tone of voice that makes it clear it's not a request), but I still have gotten
extra trouble out of them. (I'm then happy to bore them silly at the break with
a disquisition about how Cecil Sharp *made up* that kind of siding.  Along
about the time I'm explaining about Recuils de Contredanses their eyes glaze
over completely and they don't give me any more trouble.  But the real work is
getting them to recognize that local customs can differ without shattering
their worlds.)

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:09:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020916080936.42749.qmail-AT-
web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com> wrote:
> But "shirts" and "skins" that we used to use in Phys Ed should be
> easy to remember!
> CK

Dare I ask who gets to wear the shirts??

Andy

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Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:53:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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web20007.mail.yahoo.com>
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-- Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:
> >
> >I distinctly remember Ralph Page commenting, after he switched his
> >cigar to the other side of his mouth to empasize the point, that
> >the wrist-grip was adopted by New England square and contra
dancers 
> >after they had seen the Lithuanian dancers using it during one of
> >the first NEFFA Folk festivals.
> 
> When I learned to contra dance in Boston in the early 60's, stars
> were still done with hands across grip.  At that time western
> squares already used the wrist grip now favored by contra dancers.
> My understanding was that it evolved from German dance traditions
> much earlier than Neffa, coming over with early German settlers.
> (I think I got this from Jerry Helt, - but I'm not sure). I do know
> some 18th century German dances that use wrist grip on the "mill"
> figure.

I remember Danish teachers at Berea and Brasstown in the early 70's
using the term "mill" and there have been discussions of whether a
particular instance should be a "front mill" or a "back mill".
Nordlys usually uses "star" to mean "mill" in Danish dances, whereas
I seem to remember "mill" being the wrist grip and "star" being used
to mean a hands across star as is common in ECD. There are Danish
quadrilles where I've done a mill as one figure, followed by a
chorus, and a star as another one.

> Contra dance balances were silent setting steps or step-swings--
> only Appalacchian dancers chugged, making noise on a balance.

And modern Contra dancers, having seen a few people (like me) doing
clogging have interpreted a "chug" as a "stomp". 

> Whether we took hands on a right and left through depended on 
> where in the US the dance was from.

I remember Dudley Laufman (at Pinewoods in '70 or '71) once teaching
a styling from what was being done in Southern New Hampshire; this
was in proper sets, rather than the improper sets that are the modern
norm. The women would cross on the rights and lefts and turn, as
though around a pole between them. At the same time the first man
would cross and sort of angle to where he was going to end up, while
the second man would hesitate, until the center was clear, and then
clog/step/show-off across the set to his ending position. Dudley
taught this as just something that some people liked to do. I know
that a few years later, when I lived in NH, I found some people doing
this.

In Hartford, a right and left through, as Jim Gregory taught it, was
basically a circular hey with hands. Some places the turn on the
opposite side is done by the two people putting an arm around each
other and turning or just pivoting shoulder to shoulder without
touching. I think that it's probably only since the improper set has
become the norm that the courtesy turn has come into predominant use
in the right and left through.

> I have always assumed that contra dances acquired the wrist grip
> from square dancers, mooshing regional styles when contra dance
> moved out of its home environment of New England, and met the
styles
> of other regions.

I know I saw this happening within New England when I moved there in
1973, as young dancers coming into Contra, without any real links to
the traditions of the past, started "doing their own thing". I
certainly saw this at Dudley's dances. I seem to remember Duke
Miller's dances tending to not have as much of the DYOT. Ralph Page
wasn't calling regularly by that time, but from what I've heard, he
probably wouldn't have tolerated some of the things that were making
their way into dances run by others. I can only remember dancing to
Ralph's calling one time at NEFFA.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 03:44:11 PST
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:40:27 -0400
From: Jim Joyner <jajoyner-AT-
erols.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Baltimore Playford Ball Oct 19
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Marian.Lapp-AT-
fcps.edu
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020916064014.02011380-AT-
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At 10:56 PM 9/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>In response to several queries:
>Yes, there still is room for you at the Baltimore Playford Ball.
>We do not gender balance.
>We will prompt the dances the first 2-3 times through.
>
>The Ball will be Saturday, October 19, at Church of the Redeemer, Charles and
>Melrose Sts. in Baltimore. Music will be by The Flying Romanos. You can
>obtain a pdf of the registration flyer at www.bfms.org/eventIndex.html. Send
>it in by Sept 19 and save $2. For more info, e-mail us at playford-AT-
bfms.org.
>
>Hope to see many of you in Baltimore on Oct 19!
>
>Carl and Diane Friedman


================================================================================
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From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
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Quoting excessively for context:

Michael writes:
>>Quoth Alan:
>>>Nobody really
>>>notices that you're not addressing "first man and second woman" when you
>>>say "first corners", so you've saved three syllables and avoided making the
>>>people in those positions go through gender translation.
>>
>>But....but....first corners would mean the first lady and the
>>second gentleman.
>>
>>:)
>>
>>Susan
>
>Not in the usual contemporary ECD. I seem to recall an earlier
>discussion involving this, but to be clear -- are you saying that
>historical (and if so, _what_ precise historical period?) sources
>name the "first corners" as 1st woman and second man? 

The term "first corners" is meaningless in a historic sense; the
manuals very sensibly spell out who moves first.  Given that, 
just about any early 19thc source and some late 18thc source will
spell it out with the first pair to move being the first lady and
second gent.

Here's a couple of manual cites, plucked randomly from the nearest pile:

several dances in "Twenty-Four Country Dances for the Year 1814"
several dances in "Le Sylph" (1815)
anything by Thomas Wilson (many of which are available on the LOC site)

Here is a diagram from Wilson which spells it out in detail:

http://memory.loc.gov/musdi/168/0116.gif

Note that this changed over time - certainly earlier dances (Hole in
the Wall being the obvious example) had it the other way 'round.
Calling anything "first corners" is standardizing something that
cannot be standardized over the entire history of country dance.

>I have never
>in any ECD venue I have been involved in heard your usage, and
>would be totally disoriented by it. (This is not intended to be
>confrontational -- I am just assuring you that I would be totally
>flummoxed by your usage, unless it were clearly and explicitly
>detailed during teaching [and even then, I'd probably revert in
>dancing to the opposite usage.])

Well, I would never call "first corners", since it's not a clear call
- I would call "first lady turns second gent" or perhaps just "first
lady...."  If that is confusing, I'm not sure what else I can do to
clarify it.  As I've said before, I don't call MECD, and I certainly
make quite clear that I am NOT calling MECD.  And if for some reason I
DID call MECD, I would probably avoid dances where the historical and
modern versions clash noticeably, so it wouldn't arise at all.

As to flummoxing, if it's any comfort, when I do MECD, I have an
ongoing "dyslexia" problem with things like corners change and setting
- I constantly want to go the wrong way or move at the wrong time, and
have varying amounts of success in cutting off my own reflexes.

This is an awful lot to load onto what was a throwaway joke.  Note
to self: do not make jokes on the ECD list.

Susan






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Michael writes (quoting my response to Graham):
>>Having to constantly adjust to the assumptions of the majority (who
>>rarely make an effort to adjust the other direction) is just one of
>>those things people in a minority have to put up with.  It does
>>seem a little, um, humorless of you to not even allow me to make a
>>joke about it, though.
>
>Umm, Susan, your "joke" assumes people are _aware_ of the difference.

I thought we had had this discussion on the list before; I could be
wrong.  I also thought that I'd posted enough that folks who didn't
get the joke would sorta roll their eyes and think "oh, there goes
Susan prosing on about silly historical things again" and not worry
too much about it.  Obviously I misjudged in feeling comfortable
enough here to make a joke.

>And your comments about "majority" and "minority" are highly context-
>dependent. 

Context: this list, which is noticeably majority-MECD.

>If I, as a newcomer to a dance you were calling, heard "first corners"

Fortunately you won't hear that.  I can't use that term when it
means different things for different dances.

>You seem to assume that an "M"ECD dancer would not be willing to
>adjust to your context (that, at least, is how I read your rather
>nasty comment about "rarely make an effort to adjust"). But I have

You misread.  The context is this list, where people posting about
MECD rarely acknowledge that other forms of ECD exist, which is a
luxury that people posting about historical dance do not have here.
As you demonstrated in your earlier post, I cannot make a simple
assertion about, say, which corners change first without being
requested to footnote it.  I don't *mind* footnoting, and it's good
for me to have to constantly go back to sources to check things, but
this is a burden that people posting about MECD do not have.  It
also affects how much I join in list discussions, since I know I
have to be prepared to do minor research projects to back up
anything I say, and that consumes time I don't always have.  On
the bright side, when I do have time to participate, I am often
stimulated to research interestng details I hadn't thought much
about before (when did set and turn single go out of fashion as a 
figure?)

MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal" and everyone
who doesn't do it that way is "weird", or perhaps "wrong."  Part of
this is due to the nature of the MECD form, wherein "because we just
decided to do it that way" is really all the explanation needed.  I
don't ask for that explanation every time someone makes an unsupported
assertion about a MECD figure because I can pretty much assume it.
Perhaps I should start asking y'all to justify why Sharp made the
decisions he did, and you can go check Sharp manuals for me for
references?

Why does MECD make "first corners" the first man's corners?  Please
cite specific sources.

(No, I'm not serious.  But wouldn't it be really *annoying* if I was,
and I did that every single time anyone discussed an MECD figure?)

The general impression this gives is that this is a list for MECD
people, and anyone who wishes to discuss other forms of ECD needs to
constantly explain and justify themselves.  This is comparable to
other experiences I have had where I am in the minority, which is why
I used those terms.  I made the obvious error of making a minority
joke in front of the majority, and have been duly jumped on.  I will
not be doing *that* again.

I hope this clarifies my response to Graham.  If you feel that I 
should explain the joke in detail, I can do that as well.

Susan



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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:34:51 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
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Subject: Brooke's remarks
To: ECD-AT-
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I like Brooke's suggestion about a dance like Hyde Park--it's at least as
elegant and effective as anything I've suggested. As for my "right
diagonals" as opposed to her "first diagonals" (the people who would be
"men" in a square set), like Brooke, I see pluses and minuses both ways. I
could see myself using either term.
In a triple or a set, when I say "first diagonal," I still mean what in a
gendered dance would be M1 and W2. If I need to specify M1 and W3, I say,
"The looong first diagonals."

If the 1s get into second place, I will use the term "first corners" to
indicate M1, W3/W1, M2--as in a contra corners figure. "Second corners"
indicates M1, W2/W1, M3. I try to reserve the word *corner* for this usage,
and use the word *diagonal* in other situations, as above.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:23:33 PST
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From: BSDieter-AT-
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Joyce:

Any room left for the weekend?

Beverly.
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:29:08 -0700
From: Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
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References: <E17qvVm-0008G4-00-AT-
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...
>
>The term "first corners" is meaningless in a historic sense; the
>manuals very sensibly spell out who moves first.  Given that,
>just about any early 19thc source and some late 18thc source will
>spell it out with the first pair to move being the first lady and
>second gent.

Thank you.

...


>Note that this changed over time - certainly earlier dances (Hole in
>the Wall being the obvious example) had it the other way 'round.
>Calling anything "first corners" is standardizing something that
>cannot be standardized over the entire history of country dance.

Agreed. (With the reservation that within the Sharp-derived form,
it is by now pretty much standardized, though I _do_ remember the
earlier discussion where people even in that tradition argue that
it ambiguous. :-))


>Well, I would never call "first corners", since it's not a clear call
>- I would call "first lady turns second gent" or perhaps just "first
>lady...."  If that is confusing, I'm not sure what else I can do to
>clarify it.

That would be entirely satisfactory, I should think.

>...



>As to flummoxing, if it's any comfort, when I do MECD, I have an
>ongoing "dyslexia" problem with things like corners change and setting
>- I constantly want to go the wrong way or move at the wrong time, and
>have varying amounts of success in cutting off my own reflexes.

Yep; that's roughly what I meant -- even if carefully primed in
advance by the caller, I'd have some amount of habitual wrong-wayism.

>This is an awful lot to load onto what was a throwaway joke.  Note
>to self: do not make jokes on the ECD list.

I don't really think there was anything wrong with the joke -- just
not enough context for those of us who _don't_ know how you actually
call, or what your dance context is.
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:38:14 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
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Andy said:
In Hartford, a right and left through, as Jim Gregory taught it, was
basically a circular hey with hands. Some places the turn on the
opposite side is done by the two people putting an arm around each
other and turning or just pivoting shoulder to shoulder without
touching. I think that it's probably only since the improper set has
become the norm that the courtesy turn has come into predominant use
in the right and left through.

The pivoting shoulder to shoulder and the arm around the waist wheeling
round were in wide usage in S. NH, VT, and western MA in the early '70s. I
was taught to do it these ways by southern NH dancers at that time (as well
as the wrist hold star). The majority of dances at that time were still in
the proper formation so I don't think the arm around the waist was
connected to the prevalence of improper sets.
Cammy

PS It doesn't matter who are "the skins" as the distinction has to do with
clothing and not anatomy. The suggestion was intended as a crude joke that
oddly enough would solve problems of remembering whether one is a Gent or a
Lady, a Moon or a Star, a Bee or a Bear, etc...

================================================================================
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--Boundary_(ID_wCbYGSbmpOssQWH10UvlYw)
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In a message dated 9/16/2002 9:31:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
susan-AT-
generalist.org writes:

> MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal" and everyone
> who doesn't do it that way is "weird", or perhaps "wrong."  

Susan, this seems quite an assumption on *your* part.  Yes, "our way" may 
feel normal to us in the sense that "MECD" is what most of us on this list 
have learned, become accustomed to and enjoyed.  At the same time, most of us 
realize that the ECD we have come to love has evolved from an early 20th 
century revival, and that we do dances as interpreted by Cecil Sharp and 
other reconstructors to this day,  adapted for the pleasure of contemporary 
dancers.  The fact that this is our perspective certainly doesn't make me 
consider other approaches either weird or wrong. 
> 
> The general impression this gives is that this is a list for MECD
> people, and anyone who wishes to discuss other forms of ECD needs to
> constantly explain and justify themselves.

No, but it does happen to be a list mainly *of* MECD people.  This means 
comments from your different perspective are very likely to arouse interest 
and questions, and it's true this may put a burden on you and make you feel 
"jumped on."   Do give us enough credit to allow that questions are asked out 
of interest, rather than to put you on the defensive, and that your 
historical perspective and research are appreciated and add to our 
understanding.  
  
Carol Martinez, casting off (from 1st corner position?  poolside?  cliffside?)


--Boundary_(ID_wCbYGSbmpOssQWH10UvlYw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 9/16/2002 9:31:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, susan-AT-
generalist.org writes:
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal" and everyone
<BR>who doesn't do it that way is "weird", or perhaps "wrong." &nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Susan, this seems quite an assumption on *your* part. &nbsp;Yes, "our way" may feel normal to us in the sense that "MECD" is what most of us on this list have learned, become accustomed to and enjoyed. &nbsp;At the same time, most of us realize that the ECD we have come to love has evolved from an early 20th century revival, and that we do dances as interpreted by Cecil Sharp and other reconstructors to this day, &nbsp;adapted for the pleasure of contemporary dancers. &nbsp;The fact that this is our perspective certainly doesn't make me consider other approaches either weird or wrong. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>The general impression this gives is that this is a list for MECD
<BR>people, and anyone who wishes to discuss other forms of ECD needs to
<BR>constantly explain and justify themselves.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">No, but it does happen to be a list mainly *of* MECD people. &nbsp;This means comments from your different perspective are very likely to arouse interest and questions, and it's true this may put a burden on you and make you feel "jumped on." &nbsp;&nbsp;Do give us enough credit to allow that questions are asked out of interest, rather than to put you on the defensive, and that your historical perspective and research are appreciated and add to our understanding. &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR>Carol Martinez, casting off (from 1st corner position? &nbsp;poolside? &nbsp;cliffside?)</FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_wCbYGSbmpOssQWH10UvlYw)--
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Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:58:28 PST
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: kalia-AT-
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I wrote:

 >I hope you make it *very* clear whether by "right diagonals" you
 >mean the people standing on the right of each couple (i.e., what
 >we MECD'ers would call "second corners") or the other folks, who
 >can look diagonally to their right to see their corner ("first
 >corners"). Either seems to me a reasonable assumption.

Kalia wrote:

 >I agree with Dave that in a square set the use of "diagonals" is
 >open to a great deal of interpretation, and wouldn't be
 >intuitively obvious, for the reasons he mentioned above, and
 >also for the possibility of looking to one's corner/neighbor,
 >who is also on a diagonal.

Thanks, but I was actually refering to a standard longways type
arrangement. Vide infra.

MM wrote:

 >David... not clear 
 >
 > [snip]
 >
 >I always thought that first corners were the right diagonal,
 >second the left, third, etc continuing counter clockwise.
 >
 >Draw me picture based on both two couple set and three couple
 >set.

OK: M is man 1, m is man 2, W is woman 1, and w is woman 2. This
may be seen as part of a longways duple or triple minor, or a set
for two or more couples or a sicilian circle. But not a square.

     W w (... repeated for as many as will)
     M m (... repeated for as many as will)

The question is: Which diagonal is the "right" diagonal?

M and w might think it is them because when they look to the right
along the diagonal, they see each other. Meanwhile (I just put
that word in to avoid having to start this sentence with a small
m), m and W might think it is them because they are standing in
the right-hand position with respect to the person next to them.

Therefore, the expressions "right diagonal" and "left diagonal"
are ambiguous without explanation. 

Clear now?

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:10:38 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: winston-AT-
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  David Barnert

little drawing made clear what I think many of use understand./

In ECD I would not use the SCD terminology.. (second corners) but use other 
terminology,...person to the right...

My use of terminology is to refer to the position...not the individual in 
that position...

ie..
first corner is always the right diagonal..
in a duple minor, look right if there is someone there change places, if 
there is no one in your set there..wait....

But, having read the thread now for a week..I thinks that the right 
diagonal is a much better descriptor.

Mike

(ps to Alan and others)
...Yes.. I am checking my mail readers and configuring so they send plain 
text andnot also html text.
Alan...is my reconfiguring working or do I still have a few mailers to 
modifiy!!

mm




Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail 
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Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing

The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets
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Subject: for Dave
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Dave,
I think if I were going to designate dancers who were standing on the right
side of partner in a square, I'd say, right-hand or right-side dancers. But
that's not wunderbar either, since dancers hear the word "right" a great
deal (rights and lefts, r-h-turn, yadda yadda). It may be that Brooke's
policy is best: 1st diagonals=dancers on (as it happens) a right diagonal.

So in a duple longways, "First diagonals" stands in for M1+W2; in a
soi-disant Sicilian circle, M1+ M2; in a square, M1+M3, M2+M4...



Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:31:33 -0400
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Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology: $.02
To: ECD-AT-
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DavidB said:

OK: M is man 1, m is man 2, W is woman 1, and w is woman 2. This
may be seen as part of a longways duple or triple minor, or a set
for two or more couples or a sicilian circle. But not a square.

     W w (... repeated for as many as will)
     M m (... repeated for as many as will)

The question is: Which diagonal is the "right" diagonal?

M and w might think it is them because when they look to the right
along the diagonal, they see each other. Meanwhile (I just put
that word in to avoid having to start this sentence with a small
m), m and W might think it is them because they are standing in
the right-hand position with respect to the person next to them.


You might also mention that if one is facing neighbors (up and down the
set) rather than across the set at partners, the people facing along the
right diagonal are now what used to be left diagonals etc... and the people
on the right side are now on the left - so the definitions have to be
customized for each occurence of the figures in each dance. This is why I
prefer to define the diagonals in relation to the dance hall and name them
1st and 2nd.

This entire discussion WAS had starting with the missive below and
continuing throughout the following month.
ammy

----- Forwarded by Campbell Kaynor/Cambridge/Biogen on 09/16/02 12:22 PM
-----
                                                                                                                                            
                      Paul / Victoria Bestock                                                                                               
                      <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>                To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                             
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                                  
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  people vs places                                                           
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                            
                      03-Apr-2002 02:05 PM                                                                                                  
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                            




Hi,

In my dance description for Scotch Morris it says the second corners cross
first.  It does not state whether this is original second corner people who

are in first corner position at this point in the dance, or whether this
means the second corner position, or origianl first corners.

What do the rest of you prefer here?

Victoria in Seattle




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Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:

> soi-disant Sicilian circle, 

uh, Graham, would you be so kind as to translate "soi-disant"?

in case there are others on the list scratching heads & saying, "huh?"
(I assume it means couple-facing-couple)

thanks
Deb
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From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
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Subject: Re: Graham: translation?
To: ECD-AT-
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Deb wrote:

> Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:

> > soi-disant Sicilian circle,

> uh, Graham, would you be so kind as to translate "soi-disant"?

> in case there are others on the list scratching heads & saying, "huh?"
> (I assume it means couple-facing-couple)

"Soi-disant" = "so-called" or "so-named"; Graham is acknowledging that the
Sicilian-ness of a Sicilian circle is specious or at best unknown.  (Not that
he couldn't explain that himself.)

-- Alan

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"soi-disant"="so-called."
Sources I trust tell me that the proud island of Sicily wants nothing to do
with couple-facing-couple social dances. I have also heard that this is a
corruption of "Circassian circle," but have been unable to confirm this.
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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> 
> "Soi-disant" = "so-called" or "so-named"; Graham is acknowledging that the
> Sicilian-ness of a Sicilian circle is specious or at best unknown. 

thanks, Graham & Alan, for the definition.
--Deb
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As some one whose grandparents (and father) were born in Sicily, and an MECD 
dancer for getting on to (can it be?) twenty years, I'd be very interested in 
any reliable information on the origin or evolution of the term Sicilian 
Circle. And if not here, then where?

Art
> 
> "soi-disant"="so-called."
> Sources I trust tell me that the proud island of Sicily wants nothing to do
> with couple-facing-couple social dances. I have also heard that this is a
> corruption of "Circassian circle," but have been unable to confirm this.
> Graham Christian
> Technical Writer, Product Management
> Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
> Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
> Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
> SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
> 3 Post Office Square
> Boston, MA  02109
> 
> "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:34:05 -0700
From: Howard Carlberg <nsuch-AT-
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Subject: local variations
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <E17pweY-0002hq-00-AT-
black.generalist.org> <p05100301b9ab219a4f62-AT-
[208.201.230.81]>

I just wanted to add another example of a local variation. I
first met the SCA (Society for Creative Anacronism) dancers
at Lillies War near Kansas City, they were putting on a Rose
Ball which included some ECD, first edition Playford dances,
some of which I knew. This part will be easy I thought.  The
first thing I see is that everybody else does a set and turn
single starting setting to the left. "What?!" My feet tell
me that setting is "right and left" that is the only thing
they have seen before.

 

Susan wrote:

> Why does MECD make "first corners" the first man's corners?  Please
> cite specific sources.
> 
> (No, I'm not serious.  But wouldn't it be really *annoying* if I was,
> and I did that every single time anyone discussed an MECD figure?)

Why not be serious? If that is what you want to know.  I am
familar with the dances I do and am familar with. I don't
need to be on this list for that. I come here to learn
something beyond that.

For instance, what I am grappling to understand, is when did
ECD as we (I) know it loose its stepping and styling?  I see
hints of it in colonial period American dancing, and
different hints in Scottish Country dancing, which has had a
different history of preservation and revival. I guess
everybody elas already knows when and why ECD changed, but
I'm still learning.

> 
> The general impression this gives is that this is a list for MECD
> people, and anyone who wishes to discuss other forms of ECD needs to
> constantly explain and justify themselves. 

Please don't take offense, we just want to know more, help
us out. We value your knowledge and perspective, it can help
me, and all of us. Perhaps we can help you in some way too. 

cheers,
Howard
-- 
Howard & Shirley Carlberg
878 Pauline Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401

(707) 528-2310    - phone in house
(707) 292-8571    - Howard's cellular phone
(415) 871-1651    - Shirley's cellular phone
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Graham wrote:

> Sources I trust tell me that the proud island of Sicily wants nothing to do
> with couple-facing-couple social dances. I have also heard that this is a
> corruption of "Circassian circle," but have been unable to confirm this.
>

I doubt it's a corruption of Circassian. The Circassian circle is a
single circle or at least starts that way. Circassia is in the Caucasus,
a long way from Sicily.

Ciao,
Al



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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Graham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>Sources I trust tell me that the proud island of Sicily wants nothing to do
with couple-facing-couple social dances. I have also heard that this is a
corruption of "Circassian circle," but have been unable to confirm this.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>I doubt it's a corruption of Circassian. The Circassian circle is
a single circle or at least starts that way. Circassia is in the Caucasus,
a long way from Sicily.
<p>Ciao,
<br>Al
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_AIEbhPg19iBqttDMVrxS3A)--
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"I doubt it's a corruption of Circassian. The Circassian circle is a single
circle or at least starts that way. Circassia is in the Caucasus, a long
way from Sicily."
There, you see? the Caucasus denies any responsibility as well. *Mighty*
suspicious. No-one seems to want this baby.
Next you'll be telling me that, contrary to popular belief, jazz is a
native *Armorican* art form...
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:39:21 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: local variations
To: ECD-AT-
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I teach and dance ambidextrous setting. One selects which direction to set
as it relates to the figures before and after the setting and as it relates
to what one's partner is doing. For example, in dances where one sets to
partner before casting down I would set with my partner first up (towards
the band) then down, then cast unless the figure that preceeds the setting
prohibits this. Similarly prior to clover leaf TS, I find mirror setting
pleasant. And then in dances where the setting is followed by kissing or
"kifsing" as they are wont to spell it...
Cammy
----- Forwarded by Campbell Kaynor/Cambridge/Biogen on 09/16/02 03:29 PM
-----
                                                                                                                                   
                      Howard Carlberg                                                                                              
                      <nsuch-AT-
ix.netcom.com>            To:       ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  local variations                                                  
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      16-Sep-2002 02:34 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




I just wanted to add another example of a local variation. I
first met the SCA (Society for Creative Anacronism) dancers
at Lillies War near Kansas City, they were putting on a Rose
Ball which included some ECD, first edition Playford dances,
some of which I knew. This part will be easy I thought.  The
first thing I see is that everybody else does a set and turn
single starting setting to the left. "What?!" My feet tell
me that setting is "right and left" that is the only thing
they have seen before...

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:32:52 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: How it is over here
To: ECD-AT-
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ECD, MECD, contra ....  Over here in the UK the terminology is a little
different.  The fundamental divide is between the Early Dance world, the
(English) Folk World, Scottish Country Dance and Old Time dance.  

The Early Dance World seeks to achieve authentic (as it would have been
done at the time) performance and its domain includes “Playford”
(anything from 1651 to 1830ish which has a similar form to the dances
published in the Playford’s [English] Dancing Master, 1651).  Most of
these groups tend to stop around 1750 but some cover cotillions and
quadrilles as well as the couple ballroom dances of the 19th century.
Key organisations are the Dolmetsch Society, the Early Dance Circle and
the Dance Research Committee of the Imperial Society of Teachers of
Dance (ISTD).

The Folk World has major divisions between ritual dance and social
dance.  

Ritual dance encompasses Cotswold Morris, Border Morris, NW Morris,
Molly Dancing, Rapper Sword, Long Sword and a few specific dance
traditions such as the Bacup Britannia Coco-nut Dancers and the Abbots
Bromley Horn Dance.  It does not include Carnival Morris which is
widespread in the North of England and consists primarily of 5-16 year
old girls performing a mix of marching and gymnastics.  Ritual dance can
be divided into two main streams, the traditional teams (eg Bampton,
Abingdon, Bacup etc) and the revivalists (the overwhelming majority).
The revivalists in turn can be divided into those who, do or would like
to, belong to the Morris Ring (all male, predominantly older dancers,
less energetic) and those who belong to other morris organisations such
as the Morris Federation which encompasses, male, female and mixed teams
and whose members tend to be younger and more energetic.  There is also
a group of innovatory teams who have effectively created new ways of
dancing (based in the tradition but not of it) such as Hammersmith
Morris (Cotswold), Seven Champions (Molly) and Shropshire Bedlams/Martha
Rhodens Tuppeny Dish (Border) who have inspired countless look-alike
teams.

Social dance is now polarising into folk dancers and ceilidh dancers.  

Folk dancers primarily attend folk dance clubs and go to (some) folk
festivals.  Folk dancers are more likely to be older and/or female and
the majority of folk dance clubs use recorded rather than live music.
Most folk dance clubs are affiliated to the English Folk Dance and Song
Society and whilst some have good attendances, 20-30 members attending
at club night, usually on a weekday evening, is probably typical.  Most
clubs hold one or 2 major dances a year where well-known bands and
callers appear and are likely to attract people from other clubs up to
20 or 30 miles away.  Folk dances typically are held in halls with
little atmosphere and operating theatre style lighting.  Tea is
typically the interval drink. In the folk dance world it is generally
the caller that is the main draw.  Individual folk dance clubs can vary
in what material they cover.  The choices are: traditional (better
described as collected early 20th century), Playford (better described
as dances transcribed by Sharp and others), American Contra (Ralph Page
1950/60 style, NOT zesty) and Modern (Hume, Shaw, Meechan, Bolton etc).
There is now very little stepping/skipping (the older age group dictates
this) although this was not the case in the 1960/70s. 

Ceilidhs are much livelier, less controlled events which have developed
over the last 30 years or so (the word is of course much older and
Gaelic but it was hijacked by the English folk world to distinguish a
dance event with entertainment).  There are very few ceilidh clubs.
Most ceilidhs are organised by individuals or small groups of people as
public events, usually monthly, mostly on Saturday.  Other ceilidhs are
organised by, for example, morris teams or folk song clubs and at most
folk festivals, ceilidhs are now the predominant form of dance.
Ceilidhs almost always use live music (ceilidh bands typically charge a
lot more than folk dance bands) and almost invariably have a bar.  For
ceilidh goers it is the band that is the main consideration in deciding
whether to attend a ceilidh and a good band can cause people to travel
100 miles or more to get to a ceilidh.  The other major difference
between ceilidhs is the hall atmosphere.  Ceilidhs are generally held in
venues which have some atmosphere and where the lights can be dimmed
and/or include coloured light.  Ceilidh music is typically much louder
than folk dance music and makes greater use of brass and electronic
instruments.  Ceilidh music is also typically melodeon driven (folk
dance bands are most often accordion led) and is slower (to allow for
stepping).  Ceilidh programmes typically consist of about 50% drawn from
a well-know repertoire of around 30 dances (Nottingham Swing seems to be
obligatory and Clopton Bridge almost so) and 50% from the caller’s
preference.  Dances tend to be much simpler than at a folk dance with
the emphasis on dancing/stepping to the music rather than being
cerebral.

It is probably worth pointing out that there is probably far more
folk/ceilidh dancing going on outside the folk world in “one night
stands” for Parent Teacher Associations, Churches and other groups which
have their own community of interest and where the dancing is a social
activity for that group rather than the reason for existing.

There are also some signs that a 3rd strand in English Folk Dance may be
emerging.  Some folk dancers who also enjoy ceilidhs are looking for
something that combines the dance skills and some of the cerebral
pleasure to be found in the folk dance world with the energy and
enjoyment of moving to and expressing the music that is to be found in
the ceilidh world.  The American development of zesty contras seems to
be just what is wanted.  Only time will tell whether this will become
something significant or just a passing phase.  In fact, it desperately
needs to happen.  Folk dance clubs are declining both in number and
attendance as membership gets older and participation by new younger
members is rare.  It is not too far fetched to suggest that the folk
dance club may soon become an endangered species and without this new
development, only the ceilidhs will be left.  It is interesting to note
that the Saturday night gathering at Cecil Sharp House on the day of the
EFDSS AGM is to be a ceilidh rather than a dance and that ceilidhs at
Sidmouth Festival had better attendances than folk dances this year.
The writing is on the wall.

Scottish Country Dance also splits into two broad groups.  By far and
away the biggest group is Scottish Country Dance as taught by the Royal
Scottish Country Dance Society (RSCDS).  This is the same the world over
with consistency achieved through syllabi and examinations. This is a
20th century creation and like much of English folk dance is mainly
based on modern interpretation of previously published dances.  However,
it differs considerably from English folk dance in that the formation is
standardised (predominantly) into longways triple minor sets of four
couples.  The style is fixed and there are a variety of steps (whose
origin can reasonably be traced back to baroque dance).  The other group
is “traditional” Scottish country dance where groups continue to do
country dancing as they always have done.  Scottish country dance music
is recognisably different and is mainly fiddle and accordion led.  There
are some ceilidh type bands but nowhere nearly as many as in the UK.
Most Scots seem to believe that they can do their dances (or at least
the Eightsome Reel and Drops of Brandy) but when push comes to shove,
most of those who do not dance in RSCDS clubs have forgotten how the
dance goes when they actually try to do it.

Finally there is “Old Time Dance”.  This term is used to distinguish the
ballroom dances of the nineteenth and early 20th centuries from
gavottes, mazurkas, quick (Viennese) waltz, saunters, swings and tangos
from more modern ballroom dances such as the foxtrot, quickstep and
Latin American rhythms such as samba and rumba.   These dances are more
often than not couple dances performed in a circular fashion around the
dance floor.  They can also be squares.  Typical examples might be the
Barn Dance, Military Two Step and Lambeth Walk.  New dances continue to
be written in this style which is regulated by the Imperial Society of
Teachers of Dance and other non-folk dance organisations.  There are
many similarities between venues, ages, use of recorded music etc with
the folk dance world except that old time dancers seem to be rather
better dancers than most folk dancers.  What is different is the
concentration on footwork and style as opposed to patterns.

All these different worlds come together when one looks at the dance La
Russe.  You can do it the RSCDS way (its Scottish). You can do it the
Old Time way (its Old Time).  You can even do it “properly” as
researched and reconstructed by the Early Dance World.  Or, of course,
you could do it the English Folk Dance way (its English) – but which
way?  As collected and originally danced it contained a crossing over
figure which had no arches and was the “Waves of the Ocean”
cotillion/quadrille figure.  By the time I learned it at a folk dance
club in the early 1970s the figure had changed to arches and right now
if you go to a ceilidh you’ll find the arches figure doubled up so that
sides cross immediately after heads and vice versa. [Actually, it’s a
French ballroom dance that made its way to Britain in the 1840s, was
danced in polite society and then trickled its way out geographically
and socially.]

So much for labels!!!!!!!!

Of course I have omitted to mention Irish dancing, Indian dancing,
Egyptian dancing and the dancing of the many other cultures that make up
multicultural Britain.

Hope this is of some interest to somebody!  Lots of generalisations but
I believe that what I have said paints a reasonably accurate picture of
the folk dance world in Britain.  Please feel free to disagree.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk





-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU] On Behalf Of
MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com
Sent: 16 September 2002 16:48
To: ECD-AT-
ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: ...

In a message dated 9/16/2002 9:31:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
susan-AT-
generalist.org writes: 


MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal" and everyone 
who doesn't do it that way is "weird", or perhaps "wrong."  


Susan, this seems quite an assumption on *your* part.  Yes, "our way"
may feel normal to us in the sense that "MECD" is what most of us on
this list have learned, become accustomed to and enjoyed.  At the same
time, most of us realize that the ECD we have come to love has evolved
from an early 20th century revival, and that we do dances as interpreted
by Cecil Sharp and other reconstructors to this day,  adapted for the
pleasure of contemporary dancers.  The fact that this is our perspective
certainly doesn't make me consider other approaches either weird or
wrong. 


The general impression this gives is that this is a list for MECD 
people, and anyone who wishes to discuss other forms of ECD needs to 
constantly explain and justify themselves.


No, but it does happen to be a list mainly *of* MECD people.  This means
comments from your different perspective are very likely to arouse
interest and questions, and it's true this may put a burden on you and
make you feel "jumped on."   Do give us enough credit to allow that
questions are asked out of interest, rather than to put you on the
defensive, and that your historical perspective and research are
appreciated and add to our understanding.   
  
Carol Martinez, casting off (from 1st corner position?  poolside?
 cliffside?)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:04:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:04:36 -0400
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Across the Atlantic 2002, Sept 21-22
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B9ABCDB4.2B12%joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

on 9/16/02 10:23 AM, BSDieter-AT-
aol.com at BSDieter-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> Joyce:
> 
> Any room left for the weekend?
> 
> Beverly.


Beverly,

advance registrations have closed, but anyone may come and pay at the door
at any of the 3 events.  Be warned, however, that there may be quite a
crowd, because we have an impressive number pre-registered, mostly from far
away.

We've ordered a tent for outside (for socializing & refreshments, not
dancing) to take some of what we expect will be an overflow for the Sat
events at Munson   Think we'll be ok at the Grange on Sunday.

if you're not deterred by possible crowded conditions on Saturday, you're
welcome to brave it!

gotta run!
Joyce






=================================================================
Joyce B Crouch                Telephone: 413-549-4123
95 Pulpit Hill Road                 Fax: 413-549-7096
Amherst MA 01002                  email: joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:35:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:32:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Across the Atlantic 2002, Sept 21-22
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0209161829310.26410-100000-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Joyce Crouch wrote:

> We've ordered a tent for outside (for socializing & refreshments, not
> dancing) to take some of what we expect will be an overflow for the Sat
> events at Munson   Think we'll be ok at the Grange on Sunday.

i'll be in boston this saturday for a wedding and hope to attend the
sunday afternoon dance in greenfield.  anyone going on sunday from the
boston area and interested in carpooling?  (i may or may not have my car.)
please contact me off-list by thursday...

thanks,

susie lorand
609-252-0248 or 609-921-6824
srl-AT-
princeton.edu, srlorand-AT-
monmouth.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:44:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:37:56 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Graham: translation?
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200209161841_MC3-1-10A8-1AB8-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I don't remember where I learned it, but my understanding is that
'Sicilian' is a corruption of 'Cecilian' - Sanct Cecilia being the
patroness of music...

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:43:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:35:54 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ...
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D8678EA.205CA7D7-AT-
opendoor.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <E17qvwC-0008J1-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>


Susan wrote:

> MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal" and everyone
> who doesn't do it that way is "weird", or perhaps "wrong."

Not all MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal". For
example, there are plenty of people who don't consider using global
terminology/gender-reference-free calling normal (though fewer than in the
past) so when posting about it there is often extra explanation to do.
Likewise for the groups that invite people to dance on either side of the
dance with whomever of whatever gender they like.

I'm not sure where the MECD 1st corners/diagonals came to be 1st - perhaps
(wild guess here) because it was the first man who was involved, stemming
from directions being given to only the men in all sorts of instances (eg
pousette - men push rather than women pull). Certainly within MECD there
are dances where the diagonals to do something first are not in the1st
man/2nd woman position. The numbering of diagonals is an arbitrary
designation perhaps but useful once you've defined terms.

> Part of
> this is due to the nature of the MECD form, wherein "because we just
> decided to do it that way" is really all the explanation needed.  I
> don't ask for that explanation every time someone makes an unsupported
> assertion about a MECD figure because I can pretty much assume it.

It was more than a random "because we just decided to to it that way" for
the way we dance in H&R groups and in other groups in say Boston and N
Carolina. There was a great deal of thoughtful discussion and testing
based on some compelling social and community reasons. I imagine that at
the root of the source books you have, the authors/publishers are putting
into print things that evolved from someone(s) "deciding to do that way"
based on the social... reasons of the times.

Brooke

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:00:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:01:54 +1000
From: John Garden <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dance Posters & Info
To: "ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <B9ACBC22.4397%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Dear Friends,
I've just added dance posters, registration forms, discount earlybird ticket
offers to the website:
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/upcoming.htm
If you live nearby, please feel free to copy the posters and put them up
and/or hand them out!

Many thanks, Aylwen Garden

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:04:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:05:45 +1000
From: John Garden <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Christmas Carol Dances
To: "ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
CC: Aus-Worldfolk <aus-worldfolk-AT-
edfac.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <B9ACBD09.439C%garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Dear Friends, 
I have added more of John Garden's dances to the Christmas Carol Page, so
please do have a look and let us know what you think!
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/xmas.htm
**** Also, those who have already placed orders for the book, can you please
get in touch with me a.s.a.p. I need to confirm your details.
Cheers, Aylwen Garden

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:36:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:29:14 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <037FE4E7.29D76A45.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:12:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:12:57 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF1466B4F6.C822713F-ON85256C37.000F6E26-AT-
biogen.com>
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Dear Suzanne,
Very nicely said! But don't feel that all this discussion is a divisive
thing. I for one have grown curious about a much wider range of ECD than I
was when I found out about the list just a few months ago. For the most
part, we each have our specialties I'm sure, but by hearing opinions from
the various camps, we are enticed to broaden our horizons.
So far I haven't heard anyone claim to achieve historical accuracy in their
dancing. There are lots of sources cited, but we all know that the written
record is as likely to record the prejudice of the writer as the norm of
the period. I don't allow a piano in my ECD bands but do encourage
harpsichord because I like it that way - it sets a tone that I wish to
achieve - it blends better with the softer instruments and it might even be
closer to what one would have heard when the dance was published - or not -
who cares as long as people enjoy it and enjoy moving together as a
community.

I love history and I like to reach back and bring morsels of interest to
today's community of dancers. I do so with more or less of the trappings,
but with no pretence that I nor anyone knows whether there is anything
authentic in what we do.

When I first started Morris dancing, I was drawn to the idea that I might
be creating magic through dance  - bringing abundance to the farmers we
danced for and fertility to the couples who wished for children. Every time
I dance I can see that it brings happiness and positive attitudes to the
onlookers - a joy in life - and that alone should be able to create such
magic. Then "scholars" in the morris world began to discourage us from
making such claims since the historical tradition was so clearly one of
entertainment and not ritual. I paused for only one moment and then went
right on with my magic because - whether there were spiritual meanings and
magical power in yesteryear is irrelevant to the fact that I believe I can
create magic with my dance right here today.
(I guess I thought this was related because if someone thinks or feels that
they are doing something historical - I feel we should let them. The fact
that we can never know if it is also means we can never know if it isn't).
CK



                                                                                                                                   
                      SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com                                                                                             
                      Sent by:                         To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        cc:                                                                         
                      TANFORD.EDU                      Subject:  Re: MECD                                                          
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      16-Sep-2002 10:29 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




I have to say I'm a little discouraged (not to say fed up) with the
increasing use of MECD as distinct from ECD in our ongoing discussions.
Not the term per se, but the fact that it has the potential to divide us
into artificial camps -- taking an already small entity and cutting it up
into smaller and smaller parts.  For what purpose?  Philosophically, I'm
with Steve Corrsin on this (assuming I understood the essence of his post
though I wouldn't presume to speak for him).  It's all modern or certainly
contemporary.
...


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:34:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:26:19 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender-free terminology
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020916.232625.-303449.0.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Whew!   I just returned from the annual ECD weekend in Atlanta,
Georgia(*), where I was expecting to be stranded in the airport by the
tropical storm that had developed and was heading our way.  The storm
fizzled, thankfully, but now I know where all that energy actually went--
the ECD list discussion!!

Flying in from 33,000 feet to this entire discussion sprawled across
acres of my email in-box, I'll offer these simple observations for what
they might be worth:

1) Susan, people weren't reacting to your joke (the list loves jokes,
especially when we understand 'em), but to the perhaps overly defensive
response you sent to Graham.  

2) Carol Martinez has it right, IMHO. Without exception, the challenges
and questions to Susan and others representing "minority" or different
viewpoints are motivated by a desire to learn more from sources more
knowledgeable than ourselves, rather than blind rigidity or a desire to
attack non-comformist views.  

3) Many, many thanks to Michael Barraclough for his thorough description
of the scene in England... very illuminating.  Many parallels here in the
States, and elsewhere, I suspect.  I for one would be interested to hear
from other UK ECD-listers with reactions.  Alan C.? Colin? Graham K? Nic?
Trevor? 

So... more jokes, and more disputations!

Gene Murrow, heading for what Orly Krasner has dubbed the Featherbed
Ball...

(*) [shameless plug]  Terrific, huge dance floor (air conditioned); great
music (Daron Douglas, Earl Gaddis, Jacqueline Schwab playing a concert
grand rented just for the occasion), professional-quality sound system,
*amazing* nearby restaurants, Southern hospitality on and off the floor,
80+ great people/dancers.  Kudos to David Woolf and the Atlanta ECD
community!! Thanks, y'all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-
post.harvard.edu> - for your Address book
ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>         - "Reply" button
destination
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:21:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 07:21:17 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Regency Dance Workshop Sunday 9/22
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: susan-AT-
generalist.org
Message-ID: <E17rGPt-0003bU-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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(Regular monthly posting)


For the NYC-accessible and Regency-curious:

Regency Dance Workshop
Sunday September 22, 2002

My regular monthly dance workshop this month will be all Regency (Jane
Austen, Napoleonic Wars, etc.)  material.  This will be a mildly
experimental session as I try mixing up several dance forms in one
workshop and see how it works.  I am still playing with the mix a little
bit.  Willing guinea pigs welcome.  

This will be the last Regency class until January; the rest of the
year will be 1860's material.

The workshop is in two parts:

1:00-2:00 - Intermediate; Regency set dances with all the nifty steps
added in.  This is open to anyone, but I only review the basic steps
and step combinations before moving on to slightly more difficult
ones, so if you aren't quick at picking up steps you may get a bit lost.
This is bouncy and mildly strenuous - more akin to modern Scottish
Country Dance than ECD.

2:00-4:00 - Basic; this will be a mad combination of English and
French country dance and waltz.  Most likely, that will imply dancing
a couple of the finishing dances (Sir Roger de Coverley and La
Boulangere) and some improvisational country dance, and then playing
around with the Slow French Waltz.  The set dances will be done either
walking or chasse'-ing - no fancy steps will be taught, although some
style points will be emphasized.

Cost is $15 in general; $10 if this is your first time at one of
our workshops.  Generally it's a very small group - Regency dance
is exotic even in the weird-dance-forms realm.

PLEASE RSVP to: meredith-AT-
elegantarts.org - the number of people we
are expecting affects how I prepare for the class!

Time:
1:00-2:00pm - Intermediate (steps)
2:00-4:00pm - Basic (no steps)

Location:
Hop, Swing, and a Jump, 132 Crosby Street #2
for directions, see our webpage, http://www.elegantarts.org/classprac.html

EAS offers monthly historical social dance classes of the 15th through
early 20th centuries - Renaissance, 17th century country dance,
Regency/Jane Austen/1810's, American Civil War/1860's, Belle
Epoque/1890's, and Ragtime/1910's.  See our website for more
information.  http://www.elegantarts.org/.

To receive these announcements consistently, please email
info-AT-
elegantarts.org to be added to our mailing list - I only announce
on the ECD list the workshops a) that include something that resembles
country or set dance, and b) that I remember to post.

Susan




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:32:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 07:31:39 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: susan-AT-
generalist.org
Message-ID: <E17rGZv-0003cw-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>
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This is cribbed from Campbell's response since I deleted the original
post (which arrived in binary form).  So I have no context for it and
no knowledge of whether this was the whole thing or just a part:

>I have to say I'm a little discouraged (not to say fed up) with the
>increasing use of MECD as distinct from ECD in our ongoing discussions.
>Not the term per se, but the fact that it has the potential to divide us
>into artificial camps -- taking an already small entity and cutting it up
>into smaller and smaller parts.  For what purpose?  Philosophically, I'm
>with Steve Corrsin on this (assuming I understood the essence of his post
>though I wouldn't presume to speak for him).  

The purpose would be to make a distinction between different forms of
country dance - the modern living tradition form and the various
historical forms.  You may not care about that distinction or feel that
is worth making.  Others differ.

A similar distinction would be between ECD and contra; do you feel
that is divisive or artificial?  How about between ECD and SCD?
Between ECD and square dance?  These are all variants on a theme,
dancewise, but I have not noted complaints about the use of different
terms for them.

Giving something a label to acknowledge a division which already exists
is not the same as creating a division.

>It's all modern or certainly
>contemporary.

This is simply not the case and I am startled that you would make such
a comment.

I think that's all I have to say for awhile.

Susan
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 05:17:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 05:17:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Benjamin Stein <ecdscd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Graham: translation?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020917121757.36867.qmail-AT-
web20703.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> I don't remember where I learned it, but my understanding
> is that
> 'Sicilian' is a corruption of 'Cecilian' - Sanct Cecilia
> being the
> patroness of music...
> 
>   _-AT-
_      {)/'
>  /\ /\_._,<_/
> '  \      /_\
>    />    /<  Hanny
> 
Thank you Hanny. al;ways wondered about this, eer since my
ASDG days in the early 1940's.

Ben Stein
Burlington, Vt.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:11:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:11:38 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  John Kirkpatrick Address
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: pat-AT-
cdss.org
Message-ID: <20020917.091144.-2045131.1.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
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Anybody have a current address for John?

Thanks,

Allison Thompson
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:12:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:12:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dfhart24-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: St. Cecilia's Day (was Sicilian Circle)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <c5.2914e845.2ab8844b-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--Boundary_(ID_kcsFxX+CdatNk4bDJtmhWQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 9/17/2002 8:19:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ecdscd-AT-
yahoo.com writes:


> > I don't remember where I learned it, but my understanding
> > is that
> > 'Sicilian' is a corruption of 'Cecilian' - Sanct Cecilia
> > being the
> > patroness of music...
> 
Which brings me to the question of-- Is there any tradition of dances or 
musical events held on, November 22, St. Cecilia's Day?  And if not, why not? 
 Surely, we could use a day that paid homage to the Muse of Music.  Without 
which, where would any of us be???  I'd like to remember and commemorate 
*that* date for something other than the JFKennedy assassination.  (It's also 
my birthday!)

Cheer,
Deborah, an admittedly, interested party

--Boundary_(ID_kcsFxX+CdatNk4bDJtmhWQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 9/17/2002 8:19:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ecdscd-AT-
yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I don't remember where I learned it, but my understanding<BR>
&gt; is that<BR>
&gt; 'Sicilian' is a corruption of 'Cecilian' - Sanct Cecilia<BR>
&gt; being the<BR>
&gt; patroness of music...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Which brings me to the question of-- Is there any tradition of dances or musical events held on, November 22, St. Cecilia's Day?&nbsp; And if not, why not?&nbsp; Surely, we could use a day that paid homage to the Muse of Music.&nbsp; Without which, where would any of us be???&nbsp; I'd like to remember and commemorate *that* date for something other than the JFKennedy assassination.&nbsp; (It's also my birthday!)<BR>
<BR>
Cheer,<BR>
Deborah, an admittedly, interested party<BR>
</FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_kcsFxX+CdatNk4bDJtmhWQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:42:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:41:49 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: St. Cecilia's Day (was Sicilian Circle)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b9ace1767955-AT-
[140.186.55.60]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <c5.2914e845.2ab8844b-AT-
aol.com>

It's also Sharp's namesake's day.  Hmm.  I think I recall, also, that 
it was his birthday??? 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:21:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:21:37 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: modernity and its discontents
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <F697vtT2UcxNlrrAcHI00012f28-AT-
hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Who started this MECD thing? I don't recall hearing that expression except 
on this list, and that only recently. "M"?? ECD, sure, but "M"? I guess M is 
for the Many pains it gives us.

OK I'll be serious. Speaking as an academically trained and publishing 
historian (my latest ISBN = 1874312257), I say that "MECD" with "M" = 
"Modern" is a misnomer. Cast your minds back to your college history 
surveys. "Modern" usually is regarded as beginning (depending on what's 
being discussed) anywhere from the 16th to the 18th cs. And lasting up to 
some time in the 20th century, or even it's still going on. Cecil Sharp, the 
Aluminum Siding King, and John and John Jr "Mad Jack" Playford are Moderns. 
Hell's bells, they only lived about 200-250 years apart. That's nothing. A 
drop in the bucket. Pittance city.

The early 20th century "revival" (which was, historically speaking, nothing 
of the kind, but rather something new) of ECD, Playford, etc., actually 
smacks of the typical smackings of cultural postmodernity. That is, it's 
chockablock with pick-and-choose, self-referential reconstructions, wild 
eyed anachronisms, a soupcon of soi distant honi soit qui mal y pense, not 
to mention swiety boze nie pomoze, and the like.

Rather like music "with original instruments" and such, it is best regarded 
as postmodernity. That is, it may be music, and those may be instruments, 
but the resemblance to the wild and crazy rock'n'roll of several centuries 
ago ends there.

Personally, I don't care if we get split up into "Moderns" vs "Unmoderns" 
(UECD?). How about "Postmodern ECD"? I think that'd be a good name. Remember 
what that great thinker, Groucho Marx, said about joining clubs.

I just think if we're going to invoke history we should get real about it. 
Of course, that is, one must recognize that history is anything you can get 
away with, as is nomenclature. Or even Nomenklatura.

yrs,
Steve Corrsin









Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:35:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:35:29 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Heys and Reels. Was: Style Question..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002801c25e5f$da71f280$85c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Susan wrote:

>There are 19thc reels which don't involve heys at all.

Hey, don't leave us hanging!  Tell us more!  I'm reeling from the
implications....

Pat

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:39:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:45:26 +0100
From: Howard Mitchell <howard-AT-
stradivarious.co.uk>
Subject: Re: How it is over here
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3D875C26.7557.44F884-AT-
localhost>
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On 17 Sep 2002 at 7:00, Michael Barraclough wrote:
.....
> ECD, MECD, contra ....  Over here in the UK the terminology is a little
> different.  The fundamental divide is between the Early Dance world, the
> (English) Folk World, Scottish Country Dance and Old Time dance.
>
......
>
> The Folk World has major divisions between ritual dance and social
> dance.
>
.....
> Social dance is now polarising into folk dancers and ceilidh dancers.
>

I think there are a number of people who span some or all of these types.

>
> It is probably worth pointing out that there is probably far more
> folk/ceilidh dancing going on outside the folk world in “one night
> stands” for Parent Teacher Associations, Churches and other groups which
> have their own community of interest and where the dancing is a social
> activity for that group rather than the reason for existing.

You might also add weddings, birthdays and anniversaries to this list. For all of these
groups the divisions between the types of dances do not exist.  To put a scale on this,
bands that I've played in from 1970 onwards have probably averaged 10 non-folk-world
dances for every 1 in the folk world and that's in different parts of the UK from London to
Manchester and with as many as 50 bookings a year in the 1980s.


There are also differences from the musicians' point of view.
It is usual for musicians in all genres to be in recognisable bands and, except for a few
celebrities, dancers will recognise the name of a band rather than individual musicians.

Playing for ceilidhs requires a repertoire of jigs, reels, polkas, hornpipes and waltzes and
as most ceilidh bands work with their own caller, the repertoire can be worked out with
the caller. A lot of ceilidh bands play without music.

Playing for Folk Dancing for club dances or at festivals requires a repertoire of common
dances, a good general tune repertoire of English and American jigs, reels etc and the
ability to play specific tunes at the caller's request, mostly with forewarning but
sometimes without.  Most bands have their own library of tunes. In general Barnes is not
popular.

There are some bands which work across boundaries and some which can transform by
changing musicians or instruments.  There are very few bands which go for a "period"
sound.


regards
Howard Mitchell
http://www.stradivarious.co.uk

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:40:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:45:25 +0100
From: Howard Mitchell <howard-AT-
stradivarious.co.uk>
Subject: Re: John Kirkpatrick Address
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3D875C25.5327.44F7E7-AT-
localhost>
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On 17 Sep 2002 at 7:00, system-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote: 

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:11:38 -0400 
> From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com> 
> Subject: Re: John Kirkpatrick Address 
>  
> Anybody have a current address for John? 
>  
> Thanks, 
>  
> Allison Thompson 

John has a web site - http://www.johnkirkpatrick.co.uk which contains the following  
contacts: 
For mail order, theatre projects and all matters relating to Squeeze-Up,  please write to 
Squeezer
PO Box 531 
Craven Arms 
Shropshire SY9 5WB 

For bookings, enquiries, information, publicity, school appearances, house concerts and  
workshops, please contact my sole agent 

Chris Jaeger 
Speaking Volumes 
Huntingdon Hall 
Crowngate 
Worcester WR1 3LD 
Tel: 01905 611323 
Fax: 01905 619958 
Email:chris-AT-
speakingvolumes.co.uk 
Web: www.speakingvolumes.co.uk 


regards 
Howard Mitchell 
http://www.stradivarious.co.uk 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:59:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:59:49 +0100
From: Bob Taberner <Bob.Taberner-AT-
btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: John Kirkpatrick Address
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001401c25e6b$a2dd02e0$5a44063e-AT-
yourudvgq1w43i>
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References: <20020917.091144.-2045131.1.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>

Allison,
His phone number is (44)1588 638531,
Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Allison M Thompson" <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Cc: <pat-AT-
cdss.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: John Kirkpatrick Address


> Anybody have a current address for John?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Allison Thompson

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:01:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:02:22 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020917.130114.-2045131.21.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
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BTW, if any one is getting tired of the *M*ECD debate and wants to really
sink their teeth in a topic and Educate The Public as well, do note that
in an article on the topic of western club squares in this past Sunday's
New York Times, it was stated confidently that such dancing was a direct
descendant of "English morris dancing and the French minuet."

!!

Another letter-writing campaign is clearly called for.
 
Allison Thompson 
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:07:34 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: John Kirkpatrick Address
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b9ad11c0d32e-AT-
[140.186.55.118]>
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At 4:45 PM +0100 9/17/02, Howard Mitchell wrote:
>Craven Arms

Sounds like John, for sure!
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:14:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:14:28 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: corners
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003801c25e76$0f94b130$85c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Susan wrote:
>Why does MECD make "first corners" the first man's corners? .....[snip to
end]

I've wondered about that for years.  When I began noticing that in original
instructions it was W1 and M2 who moved first, I was puzzled as to why the
reconstructions put it the other way.  I've not found any explanation in
Sharp's six Country Dance books (possibly I overlooked it?), which are the
only Sharp writings I have, so I assumed (hoped?) that he or other
reconstructors had explained this change in some other writings.  Is this
so?  Does anyone know why this particular change has occurred?

One convoluted idea that I had works its way backward from triple minor sets
where the 1s are in 2d position and thus each has a first and a second
corner.  Original instructions have W1 turn M2 while M1 turns W3, and then
W1 turns M3 while M1 turns W2.  Modern reconstructors, looking for shorthand
terminology, would shorten this arrangement to "first corners" and "second
corners."  This shorthand language was then applied to a duple minor set,
keeping the orientation the same (that is, 1st corners are the people
standing on the right diagonal), while ignoring the fact that this brings
different people into play.

In this scheme, the fact that "1st corners" in a duple minor set are "first
man" and his corner is not a bias toward M1, but rather a result of
maintaining a right diagonal orientation for first corners, adopted from
triple minor corners.

Let me repeat that this is *pure speculation* on my part.

RSCDS Scottish uses "1st corners" and "2d corners" only in triple minor
dances and *never* in duple minors.  For duple minors, the people are always
specified ("First woman and second man set advancing," etc.).  This may seem
wordy; well, actually, it *is* wordy....but then it's worth remembering that
SCD isn't called once the music starts.

Pat

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:14:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:14:31 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003a01c25e76$11746db0$85c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Allison wrote:

>....on the topic of western club squares in this past Sunday's New York
Times, it was stated confidently that such dancing was a direct descendant
of "English morris dancing and the French minuet."

Especially when it comes to phrasing and footwork....

Pat

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:37:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:36:31 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: corners
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b9ad2675b14e-AT-
[140.186.55.37]>
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At 2:14 PM -0400 9/17/02, Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
>Susan wrote:
>>Why does MECD make "first corners" the first man's corners? .....[snip to
>end]
>
Male chauvinism of Sharp's generation and age?
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:50:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:48:20 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: corners
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020917134525.00aced80-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
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g9tfz>

My two cents...

I do not particularly car except as history for the origin...but my approach

look right, that is your first corner....if no one is there then stand!

Work for duple, two couple, triple minor and triplets.

Does not require a multiple vocabulary.

W hether or not it was male chauvinism (and lets not let female chauvinism 
enter the equation) is immaterial..../
Sharp and dead...Long live ECD.

Lets dance from here and not in the past

mm


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:59:45 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
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Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:54:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Benjamin Stein <ecdscd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020917205438.37888.qmail-AT-
web20709.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com> wrote:
> BTW, if any one is getting tired of the *M*ECD debate and
> wants to really
> sink their teeth in a topic and Educate The Public as
> well, do note that
> in an article on the topic of western club squares in
> this past Sunday's
> New York Times, it was stated confidently that such
> dancing was a direct
> descendant of "English morris dancing and the French
> minuet."

My recollection is that "Western Style" square dancing was
pretty much an invention of Lloyd "Pappy" Shaw in Colorado
in the 1940's. He felt that old tyme square dancing might
be fun to do but was boring to watch and took all the two
couple and four couple figures that he could find, renamed
them (in many cases-usin spanish rther than french
derivations) and combined them so that everyone was dancing
at the same time-a better demonstration form. Not a lot
happened with this until the 50's when somone (gosh knows
who) found that this style of dancing fit to currently
popular music, mostly recorded on 45 rpm records and the
damn thing "took off". If anyone has more detail or other
sources feel free to let me know in a direct message if you
don't wish to burden the list with unwanted information.

Ben Stein
Burlington, vt.
ecdscd-AT-
yahoo.com
> 
> !!
> 
> Another letter-writing campaign is clearly called for.
>  
> Allison Thompson 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:10:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:10:47 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF7FD99539.05187B03-ON85256C37.00741D23-AT-
biogen.com>
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Duke Miller, Ralph Sweet, and several others have recounted to me either
first or second hand, the splash that the appearance of Western Style
square dancing made when it hit the stage at the 1939 World's Fair in NY -
brought there by a performing group whose name and leader I can't recollect
but Lloyd Shaw may well have been in on it. The style was greeted with
astonishment and enthusiasm. I got the impression they thought that this
was the first time it was encountered in the East, but I would not be at
all surprised if there were less known venues that preceeded this highly
visible one.
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:49:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:49:16 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF633495EB.311BDCE2-ON85256C37.007D19BB-AT-
biogen.com>
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To SFORDNYC

Dear Suzanne,
You have now several times mentioned Mr. Isaac. For example,
"Unless you have a video of Mr. Isaac (or someone else of your choice)
dancing, there is no way to know how close any of this would be to the
"real" 17th (or 18th) century thing."

I would be very reluctant to base "real" on a video of one dancer (even Mr.
Isaac), one whole dance, one evening, or even one community,.... unless you
were specifically trying to re-enact what Mr. Isaac did at that moment in
time. To my way of thinking, most of those who attempt to recapture
historical dance is that they rely all too heavily on such tidbits and fail
to recognize how distorted a picture this may produce. I'll give you one
humorous example from an Email I received off-line.
(Picture yourselves 200 years in the future trying to reconstruct 2000th
century contradance from the following account!)

>I love history and I like to reach back and bring morsels of interest to
>today's community of dancers. I do so with more or less of the trappings,
>but with no pretence that I nor anyone knows whether there is anything
>authentic in what we do."...
Hi Cammy,
I know it is not what you intended to produce, but in my mind I
conjured up a picture of you in "all the trappings" of bare chest,
feather boa and cigar held between toes on bare feet.  Instead of
asking if you remember the occasion, I'll remind you that it was with
the Foregone Conclusions in 1984 at the Charlottesville Fall Dance
Festival.  Your authenticity was showing that night for sure!!!

etc...

Well there you have it! At least we now know the proper dress for this
ancient form of contradancing!

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:24:40 PST
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:25:18 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com
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Darlings, darlings, darlings,

Yes, Cammy and Benjamin have recently many interesting facts to add to
the accretion of detail around the development of Western Club Squares in
the U.S. in the 1940s and 1950s, a period which certainly reveals one of
the more modern developments of M*ECD--but one which draws its roots from
the French cotillon (sometimes anglicized to cotillion) of about 1770 for
four couples in a square-ish formation, as well as to the more developed
quadrille of the 1820s plus. And NOT--at least directly--from any sort of
French minuet or English morris dance.

So my point is that however delightful and instructive and deliciously
quarrelsome it is for us experts to argue over how many angels can dance
on a head of a pin in *M*ECD or any of its variants, what we really must
do is Unite and Blast the Infidels of Un-Knowledge as represented in the
popular press who would like to believe that such a patter-called square
dance Is Divinely Born from a combination of a English folk performance
dance of really an un-known date (see Judge, et al.)  and a French
one-couple-at -time court dance of the 1700s. Of course, it is true that
all of these activities indeed had their subtle and
not-readily-to-be-explored effects upon the differing layers of social
dance in America, 1770-2002, but these complexities will not easily be
dealt with in a single newspaper piece.  However, we can all unite in
trying to educate journalists a little bit....and a good first start is
to not try to link minuet, morris and square dance in an easy breath!

When we've successfully accomplished this task, we may then tackle those
legions who would like to believe that maypole dances date back to the
Garden of Eden or perhaps beyond and that the Green Man is with us
wherever we turn.


Allison Thompson

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:42:34 PST
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:42:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: ACFerg-AT-
cs.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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cs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--Boundary_(ID_uCSGVLH6i0OaNCBleISkkg)
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   Personally, I don't have any problems with the designation MECD.  I think 
we all know what we mean by it.  However, as the son and nephew of historians 
I know the kind of flea in the ear that issues of periodization can be for 
members of that profession.  Therefore, maybe we should adopt the more 
cumbersome and inelegant designation PSECD for Post-Sharp ECD, thereby 
sidestepping both the morass surrounding the term "modern" and the question 
of whether Sharp "revived" an older dance form called ECD or created 
something largely new.

Best regards,
Arthur Ferguson
Framingham, MA

--Boundary_(ID_uCSGVLH6i0OaNCBleISkkg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Personally, I don't have any problems with the designation MECD.&nbsp; I think we all know what we mean by it.&nbsp; However, as the son and nephew of historians I know the kind of flea in the ear that issues of periodization can be for members of that profession.&nbsp; Therefore, maybe we should adopt the more cumbersome and inelegant designation PSECD for Post-Sharp ECD, thereby sidestepping both the morass surrounding the term "modern" and the question of whether Sharp "revived" an older dance form called ECD or created something largely new.<BR>
<BR>
Best regards,<BR>
Arthur Ferguson<BR>
Framingham, MA</FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_uCSGVLH6i0OaNCBleISkkg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:11:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918041156.68662.qmail-AT-
web20010.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com> wrote:
> I would be very reluctant to base "real" on a video of one dancer
> (even Mr. Isaac), one whole dance, one evening, or even one
> community,....

This made me think of a dance that Nordlys performed at the Astoria
Midsummer Festival this year. A Finnish group from Seattle was on
just before us and they did one of the dances that we were
performing, but the interpretation was _very_ different. The
interesting thing is, both our leaders learned it at the same
workshop in Vancouver BC. Our director had it on video and sat down
and reconstructed our dance instructions from the video. I'm not sure
if the other group had a video, but they had the advantage of having
someone in their group who was able to read the Finnish syllabus.
Maybe the syllabus had figures that weren't taught at the workshop,
and of course it would all be subject to their interpretation of the
instructions.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:33:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:33:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0209180032460.29144-100000-AT-
panix2.panix.com>
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On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:
> Personally, I don't care if we get split up into "Moderns" vs "Unmoderns"
> (UECD?). How about "Postmodern ECD"? I think that'd be a good name. Remember
> what that great thinker, Groucho Marx, said about joining clubs.

W.S. Gilbert said it first.


Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.ecben.net/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:33:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: corners
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918043332.76372.qmail-AT-
web20008.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net> wrote: 
> Lets dance from here and not in the past

Isn't what we do _all_ in the past, except for newly written dances??

Andy

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Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:41:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918044112.94040.qmail-AT-
web20009.mail.yahoo.com>
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> Allison wrote:
> > ....on the topic of western club squares in this past Sunday's
New
> > York Times, it was stated confidently that such dancing was a
> > direct descendant of "English morris dancing and the French
> > minuet."

--- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> Especially when it comes to phrasing and footwork....

...in the Bledington tradition:

Heads up a double and sides half-gyp,
All hook-leg and let 'er rip...

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Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:51:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:51:07 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
quiltr.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05101002b9adb6240167-AT-
[192.168.1.101]>
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>
>>  Allison wrote:
>>  > ....on the topic of western club squares in this past Sunday's
>New
>>  > York Times, it was stated confidently that such dancing was a
>>  > direct descendant of "English morris dancing and the French
>  > > minuet."


Interesting.  Subscribers on another list I am on just finished with 
a Wall Street Journal reporter who wrote a rather stupid article 
about quilts as museum exhibits.  Let's just say - don't call art 
quilts "blankies" and infer that they have bed bug infestations! LOL.

Maybe the regular writers are still at the beach?

We got some good letters to the editor published and raised some 
awareness, so have at!

Mary Beth
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:57:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: St. Cecilia's Day (was Sicilian Circle)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918045736.95723.qmail-AT-
web20009.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Dfhart24-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> Which brings me to the question of-- Is there any tradition of
> dances or musical events held on, November 22, St. Cecilia's Day?  

Maybe it's too close to Thanksgiving??

Andy

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Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:57:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:57:38 -0700
From: Pat Corvini <corvini-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: how to learn (current) style(s)    [was:  Re: MECD]
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001c01c25ecf$eca59130$ea69c043-AT-
PC1>
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Cammy Kaynor writes (in context of this week's discussion on
bases for and possibility of historical reconstruction),
 
> I would be very reluctant to base "real" on a video of
> one dancer (even Mr. Isaac), one whole dance, one evening,
> or even one community,.... 

This reminds me of the exchange last month about how to learn
style.  [Many thanks to all who replied to my question on that!] 
A couple of people, Cammy included, recommended camps, festivals,
etc., citing the nonlinearly beneficial effect, for learning,
of being surrounded by many people all employing a given style.

I wondered if the cognitive benefit of this being surrounded
by many good dancers comes in part from its offering one the
opportunity to abstract away from the particular idiosyncracies
(or just the specific details) of individual dancers' movements,
and thus more easily to absorb the essence of that elusive
quality--the style--that they all have in common.

I think this kind of abstraction can happen subconsciously;
maybe it helps explain that feeling of learning by osmosis.

Pat Corvini



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:09:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:09:50 -0700
From: Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: corners
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100300b9adb39aa519-AT-
[208.201.230.81]>
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>--- Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net> wrote:
>>  Lets dance from here and not in the past
>
>Isn't what we do _all_ in the past, except for newly written dances??

I would say, rather, that all we do is (inescapably!) in the _present_,
whatever its relation to the past might be. That is part of Suzanne
Ford's position -- whether we are personally engaged in a historical
reconstruction activity, or just attending an aging English folkdance
club (_pace_ Michael Barraclough's "How it is over here"), and whatever
names we may apply to it (to ourselves in our local contexts, or for
disambiguation on the ECD list or whatever). All forms and traditions
of "English Country Dance" currently done, by members of this list or
any others, are unquestionably _current_ 21st Century activities --
and all of them derive in complex ways from a "past" which includes
both the stuff we connect to and the stuff we _don't_ connect to, in
our individual dancing lives.

The range of _current_ "ECD" is much larger than any one of us could
claim expertise (or even familiarity) with. That's why context matters,
whether in the intensive discussions or in jokes. No two of us have
_exactly_ the same context in this. Susan (generalist) is right that
a majority in this group (at least, of those posting -- it's always
hard to account for lurkers!) come from the current USA scene of
CDSS-affiliated dancing, with its roots in the Cecil Sharp movement.

But many of us have had SCA or other involvement with Renaissance
dance (as reconstructed/understood currently!) either of the Arbeau
sort or the Italian (Carosso, etc.) varieties. Many, including both
Susan and our estimable list-maintainer, also have a deep involve-
ment with (current "recreations" of) 19th Century dancing. All the
strands of the past converge here: for the simple reason that SOME
of us do things NOW related to all these various pasts.

We are all, in some ways, "celebrating" the past (as it filters
into our own activities.) For some of us, the fascination of the
past _as such_ may play a larger role. For others, that is simply
the ground from which the things they enjoy happen to emerge. For
myself, I can get deeply interested in 16th and 17th century roots,
but tend to find no engagement at all in late 18th and 19th century
stuff -- without, I hope, thereby indulging in a supercilious
dismissal of the interests of those who _are_ absorbed by the
Regency period or others around it. That this period does not
engage me is a purely subjective statement -- there is far too
much in the "past" for any of us to devote ourselves equally to
"all" of it!

And, as a "bottom line" there simply is no need for dancers to
"know" more about the past than is needed to enjoy an evening of
dance at whatever venue they happen upon, either by chance or by
long habit. And _that_ past is what is conveyed at the particular
occasion and by the particular odd assortment of people who are
present as the vehicles of transmission from past to present that
_is_ "tradition".

Michael, in pedantically discursive mode...
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:54:56 PST
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:51:35 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle-AT-
earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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ACFerg-AT-
cs.com wrote:

>    Personally, I don't have any problems with the designation MECD.  I
> think we all know what we mean by it.  However, as the son and nephew
> of historians I know the kind of flea in the ear that issues of
> periodization can be for members of that profession.  Therefore, maybe
> we should adopt the more cumbersome and inelegant designation PSECD
> for Post-Sharp ECD, thereby sidestepping both the morass surrounding
> the term "modern" and the question of whether Sharp "revived" an older
> dance form called ECD or created something largely new.

For each discipline (history, art, architecture, fiction, etc.) the
definition of "modern" will vary .  How about "CECD" - contemporary?

--Charlene

-- 
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases
to be serious when they laugh. -- George Bernard Shaw
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:21:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: local variations
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMMSTKOWD09FMMVH-AT-
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References: <E17pweY-0002hq-00-AT-
black.generalist.org> <p05100301b9ab219a4f62-AT-
[208.201.230.81]>

ECDers --

Boy, turn my back for a minute ...  I'm on vacation (at the Oregon Shakespeare
Festival in Ashland); I didn't see email between 9:30 am Monday and about 2:00
am Wednesday, and some 47 ECD messages had arrived in that time.  Wow.

I don't have all the editing capability I normally do.  (I can't find the right
keys on my girlfriend's laptop.)  

Anyway, Howard Carlberg wrote:


> For instance, what I am grappling to understand, is when did
> ECD as we (I) know it loose its stepping and styling?  I see
> hints of it in colonial period American dancing, and
> different hints in Scottish Country dancing, which has had a
> different history of preservation and revival. I guess
> everybody elas already knows when and why ECD changed, but
> I'm still learning.

I didn't see this question answered yet, so I'll have a bash: ECD pretty much
died out in the 1820s and 1830s.   (And so, in the written-about ballroom, did
"Early American" and "Scottish".  In each case, vernacular cousins of those
dance genres survived in smaller and more isolated communities.)

Quadrilles and couple dances replaced ECD in the ballroom.  Quadrilles started
out with lots of footwork - stepping and styling - but from mid-century dancing
masters seem to be trying to eradicate stepping, exuberant setting steps, etc,
and turning them into sets of walked or dance-walked figures.  (My theory is
that at this point, industrialists and large merchants who hadn't grown up
wealthy or noble were the patrons of the dancing masters.  They hadn't had
lessons since the age of five; their feet had never been put horizontal frames
so they could have proper turnout, and the dancing-masters didn't think these
guys or their wives could look anything but ridiculous doing the balletic
footwork of the early 1800s; therefore, they redefined the footwork to what
their patrons could do.)  

We get to the early 1900s.  Sharp sees some village dances (vernacular cousins
of dance-manual-type ECD), likes 'em, draws some (unwarranted) conclusions
about the proper style for ECD (vigorous, uncomplicated), and applies those
conclusions to ECD dances from published sources.  Important points: (1) SHARP 
WAS NOT A DANCE HISTORIAN. (2) SHARP HAD AN AGENDA OTHER THAN ACCURATE
RECONSTRUCTION OF COUNTRY DANCES.  Avoiding for the moment the bigger
questions of what this was about, he was certainly interested in making the
dances accessible to modern tastes.  It was also important to his agenda that
they be folk dances.  (3) SHARP WAS NOT AN OPEN, SHARING MEMBER OF THE
COMMUNITY OF SCHOLARS.  He asserted ownership of collected material, and he
used it - if I read Georgina Boyes correctly - to cement his position of
leadership in the EFDS.  He certainly didn't put forth interpretations to have
them challenged, counter-interpretations offered, etc; he got the dances the
way he wanted them and then he taught them, published them, and trained other
people to teach them.  (4) SHARP WAS INEVITABLY INFLUENCED BY VICTORIAN IDEAS
OF THE BALLROOM.  I don't think he consciously said "quadrilles are walked with
no fancy footwork and therefore country dances are", but I think it had to have
helped form his tastes; he 'knew' he had it right when it looked familiar.


So pick a date for when the footwork went out of country dancing: 1830, when
country dancing in England essentially died out?  1860 (say), when footwork has
largely been relegated to couple dances in the formal ballroom?  The early
1900s, when Sharp started a "revival" movement that consciously left out
footwork and stepping?

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:28:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ...
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMMT25K1IM9FMMVH-AT-
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black.generalist.org>

Brooke quoted Susan:


> > MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal" and everyone
> > who doesn't do it that way is "weird", or perhaps "wrong."

> Not all MECD posters can simply assume that their way is "normal". For
> example, there are plenty of people who don't consider using global
> terminology/gender-reference-free calling normal (though fewer than in the
> past) so when posting about it there is often extra explanation to do.
> Likewise for the groups that invite people to dance on either side of the
> dance with whomever of whatever gender they like.

This bears out the phenomenon Susan is seeing while clarifying that she's
misidentifying where the boundaries lie.  The list does seem to have a
preponderance of "mainstream" dancers posting on it; when we talk about stuff
that's out of the mainstream (whether through gender-reference-free-calling or
reconstruction done without reference to Sharp's conventions) we get a lot more
people who need explanations of what we're on about it and why it's worthwhile
- needs sometimes demonstrated by misunderstandings of what we're on about or
claims that it's not worthwhile.

I don't think we've seen enough RenFaire/SCA posting on the list to demonstrate
that this phenomenon applies to those non-mainstream groups as well.  I've
definitely gotten some of it talking about "Regency."

[The rest isn't snipped because it would take forever with the editing setup
I'm currently using.  Everything below my signature is repeated verbatim from
Brooke's post.]

-- ALan




> I'm not sure where the MECD 1st corners/diagonals came to be 1st - perhaps
> (wild guess here) because it was the first man who was involved, stemming
> from directions being given to only the men in all sorts of instances (eg
> pousette - men push rather than women pull). Certainly within MECD there
> are dances where the diagonals to do something first are not in the1st
> man/2nd woman position. The numbering of diagonals is an arbitrary
> designation perhaps but useful once you've defined terms.

> > Part of
> > this is due to the nature of the MECD form, wherein "because we just
> > decided to do it that way" is really all the explanation needed.  I
> > don't ask for that explanation every time someone makes an unsupported
> > assertion about a MECD figure because I can pretty much assume it.

> It was more than a random "because we just decided to to it that way" for
> the way we dance in H&R groups and in other groups in say Boston and N
> Carolina. There was a great deal of thoughtful discussion and testing
> based on some compelling social and community reasons. I imagine that at
> the root of the source books you have, the authors/publishers are putting
> into print things that evolved from someone(s) "deciding to do that way"
> based on the social... reasons of the times.

> Brooke



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:37:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: MECD, etc
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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ECDers --

This is in reply to Suzanne's post.  Forgive me for not quoting it here; my
inability to figure out how the keypad on my girlfriend's laptop maps to the
VT100 keypad restricts my editing capabilities severely.  (It also doesn't help
that the markings on about a third of the keys has worn off from lots of use.)

Suzanne, if I misstate your arguments, please correct me.

(Oh, and first a sidenote. Steve, "modern" in different disciplines isn't all
aligned on the same date.  "Modern dance" doesn't begin with the formation of
nation-states in Europe - why should "Modern ECD" do so?)

Suzanne makes the correct (but, I hope to show, irrelevant) point that whatever
we do, we are all modern people so what we do is modern ECD.  

In the absence of video/audio footage of historical dance, she says, we can't 
hope to reproduce it accurately, and it's pointless to try.

One might as well say that in the absence of noise-suppressed Dolby recordings
of first performances of Handel's music, we can't hope to produce it
accurately, and it's pointless to try.  (Oh, wait - I think she does say that.)
This suggests that the historically-informed performance movement is wasting
its time, because they can't get - or won't know if they do get - a 100%
accurate reproduction of initial performances.  I disagree.  If you learn more
about historical performance practice; if you use instruments with period
characteristics and period tuning; if you read what contemporaries said about
the performances, you're going to get closer to the historical experience than
just letting a modern orchestra with modern tuning and instruments that weren't
even invented in Mozart's time have at it.  Closer.  That's interesting, at
least for the people who find it interesting, and it sometimes makes it much
clearer what the composer was getting at.  That's not pointless.  (Note that
this argument claims no moral superiority for historically-informed
performance; it just says that it's likelier to produce something closer to the
historical experience than blindly musing modern performance practice,
amplification, etc.)

In dance, too, if you're interested in getting as close as possible to the
original historical experience - as close as scholarship and finance will 
take you - you can get a good deal closer, in ECD, then if you take Sharp's 
interpretations to a bunch of people in t-shirts in a school gym and have a
piano, an accordion, and a saxophone play the music.  *It's not all the same.*
(Is there anything morally wrong with the school gym,, the shirts, the modern
instruments, or Sharp's interpretations?  Nope.  They're just things that are
different from the historical experience.)

It's very different to say "it would be pointless *for me* to go to any trouble
to get closer to the historical experience" than to say "it is pointless to go
to any trouble"; the latter disrespects the efforts of a whole flock of dance s
scholars and teachers.

I believe Suzanne goes on to suggest that we all do stuff following Sharp, even
reconstructors going back to primary sources post-Sharp.  I think this too is
wrong; by analogy again, it's like saying that anyone who's done any
stage dance since 1915 is "following in the footsteps of Isadora Duncan",
even if they're reconstructing stage dances from 17th century masques.   It's
trivially true, but it's wrong.

Finally, she objects to any ECD/MECD distinction as creating artificial
division.  I'm not sure we have the terminology right; maybe it should (as
someone suggested later) be CECD, or maybe we need HIECD and HUECD, or maybe we
could recognize that ECD-as-most-of-the-list-knows-it is a real grabbag anyway,
full of things that don't in historical fact go together.  (Not that there's
anything wrong with that.)  I know that whenever I say CDSS-style ECD, Robin
Hayden pops up to remind me that CDSS hasn't endorsed any particular style for
ECD, so I won't call it that; I won't call it Sharp-style ECD (mostly) because
most US ECD really isn't as vigorous as Sharp would have had it.  My suggestion
would be MECD where the M stands for "mainstream", but I certainly have no
problem with people on the list saying "ECD" for the stuff they do, provided
they don't insist that other people agree with them.

However, the nomenclature correctly suggests enterprises with different
purposes.  Sharp had a purpose about national identity giving the folk cultgure
back to the folk.  (This didn't work out.)  We have purposes about having a
good time moving to music, about building community, about sharing joy.  My
"Regency" (in quotes because it's primarily MECD) group intends to dance in the
spirit of the English Regency (but we can't dance effortlessly and controlledly
in the *style* of the Regency because we didn't have dance lessons from the age
of five.  Others have purposes about getting as close as possible to the
historical experience, or about putting on a dramatic show that's fun to watch.
It does everybody a disservice to insist that all those things are the same
thing.

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:14:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:13:45 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: St. Cecilia's Day (was Sicilian Circle)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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biogen.com>
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My Double Dance on 4th Fridays falls on Nov. 22:
7-9 17th century (mostly) ECD
9-11 New England Contras
I also have a contra in the same hall on Thanksgiving (23rd annual) so
"it's too close to Thanksgiving" is probably not the explanation for the
dirth of dances. Last year these dances were on adjacent evenings and we
still had a large crowd at both.
CK


                                                                                                                                   
                      Andy Peterson                                                                                                
                      <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>             To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Re: St. Cecilia's Day (was Sicilian Circle)                       
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      18-Sep-2002 12:57 AM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




--- Dfhart24-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> Which brings me to the question of-- Is there any tradition of
> dances or musical events held on, November 22, St. Cecilia's Day?

Maybe it's too close to Thanksgiving??

Andy

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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:03:55 -0400
From: eba-AT-
umich.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: corners
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu>
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--On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 9:33 PM -0700 Andy Peterson 
<lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:

> Isn't what we do _all_ in the past, except for newly written dances??

No -- what we do is all in the present; what we've done is all in the past.

(;-)

Eric Arnold
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:51:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:49:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: New Challenge
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com> wrote:

> When we've successfully accomplished this task, we may then tackle
> those
> legions who would like to believe that maypole dances date back to
> the
> Garden of Eden or perhaps beyond and that the Green Man is with us
> wherever we turn.

I am reminded of a Yale English Professor (expert in Hardy)I happened
to meet once, who confidently explained to me that maypole dances
were an old fertility rite, the point of the dance being that when
originally done in English villages, the laddies and lasses who found
themselves next to each other by the tangling of the ribbons would
then go off together into the woods to consummate the ritual. 

Would anyone who knows more on the subject have an idea of where she
got that particular embellishment?

Barbara 

=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:03:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:12:01 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Alive, alive-o!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Alan--
I think you've misunderstood Suzanne a bit. She precisely says that the
necessary impossibility of a full reconstruction of the experience of 1670
or whatever is no reason not to try our best and to enjoy it--just not to
kid ourselves.

I will remind us all that dance is *especially* elusive--perhaps more so
even than music or drama or other arts that we might be inspired to perform
or "re-perform." For instance, at this very moment, the surviving
traditions of both George Balanchine and Martha Graham are hotly disputed.
There are onlookers who vow that the dancers or companies who have the
chief "right" to perform their works have already lost that certain special
something. I believe it is Joan Acocella who has (not so long ago) wrung
her hands while averring that during the acrimony following Martha Graham's
death, crucial time was lost at the end of which Graham's good dancers and
disciples had scattered or died, with the result that Graham's company is
guessing about the true Graham style as much as anybody else. Several
recent essays by Acocella and others have suggested that Balanchine's
company is not doing his works "right."

And I am referring here to famous and acclaimed choreographers who were
living in living memory; whose works, *during their lifetimes*, have
probably been seen by many contributors to this list. If this is the case,
how can we hope to present anything better than respectful *tributes* to
much older choreographies?

And *if* we could drop Master Isaac (or, since Cammy seems to feel that he
might be too prescriptive, would we prefer John Essex? or perhaps Giovanna
Baccelli? Barbarina Campanini?) into a very sincere evening of English
Country Dances presented, say, by Ken Pierce's Baroque Dance Company (I
cite Ken because I happen to know that he does not look down his
well-trained nose at English Country Dances)--that is, with every effort at
pas de bouree and the rest, he--or she--might still sigh and shake his/her
head (or whack somebody on the noggin with a tambourine), and view the
dancing as degraded or debased. The *feeling* would be wrong, I'd
warrant--it would be something indescribable about the set of the shoulders
or the angle of the arm...something, in other words, having to do with
having been trained by the best masters when just out of leading-strings.

But also, perhaps, having to do with having been born in 1665 or 1712, and
the condition of one's teeth, and the latest turn of the War of the Spanish
Succession, and the experience of scratchy underclothes and a cheap corset,
and on and on. Having to do, in other words, with influences we can't
recreate in full. Even the attempt to do so can end in madness, as in
certain Borges stories.

What is *exciting*, I think, and good news, is that English Country Dance
is a *living* form. Of course we dance it in our own manner, secretly
influenced by Astaire and Rogers, the Watergate scandal, vinyl, and
strawberry-scented shampoo. It is laudable to reach back, to make as near
an approach as we can to the dances of 1650 and 1788--but we inevitably
change them. After all, *they* did, without much shame: La Barbarina (had
she stooped to 'social dancing,' which seems doubtful) would very likely
have deemed Essex's dances bizarre, and a bore to boot.

All of that said [he said, carefully attaching Lady Suzanne's favor to his
helmet], Suzanne doesn't deem the search for authenticity pointless: she
simply reminds us that you come to an endpoint eventually.

In truth, what we are suffering from now is an embarrassment of riches: we
have moved out of the era of the pioneers.  When Cecil Sharp interpreted
dances, there was nary a one who could have disputed his readings or
offered an alternative (Kidson perhaps? one or two others in the *world*
then?). Now, in this astonishing renaissance of the form, there are many
more authorities and resources that can inform (and occasionally confuse)
us: kinetics and kinaesthetics and historically-informed performance and
new research and convincing studies on differing learning styles and...

It isn't just up to Mr. Sharp anymore, as the only one who knew anything.
It's up to all of us: it's a *living* form--our burden and our privilege.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:13:43 PST
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:13:39 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Alive, alive-o!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Love it, Graham!
Thanks, CK

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:36:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:35:17 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Maypole Baloney
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918.113654.-1740247.4.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
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Barbara wrote:

> I am reminded of a Yale English Professor (expert in Hardy)... who
confidently explained to me that maypole dances
> were an old fertility rite, the point of the dance being that when
> originally done in English villages, the laddies and lasses who 
> found themselves next to each other by the tangling of the ribbons
would
> then go off together into the woods to consummate the ritual. 

> Would anyone who knows more on the subject have an idea of where she
> got that particular embellishment?


From her fertile brain.

I am really aggravated by the amount of romantic hooey on the topic of
English traditional customs that is published and promulgated every day
in children's books on holidays, in many popular reference sources and on
the web. In one recently-published children's book that I looked
at--lovely photos & pictures, including one of a group of women clearly
dancing clog morris (they had clogs, no bells & twiddlers) under which
was printed a lengthy discussion of classic Cotswold morris with its
bells, sticks & hankies--which stated confidently that the untwining and
the consequent lengthening of the ribbons represented the lengthening of
the days towards the solstice.  Since most maypole dances end with the
ribbons plaited, this must mean a shortening of the days....?! Bleagh!

On the other hand, from a wincing perusal of some Pagan websites, it
appears that some modern Pagans celebrate Beltane (May 1) in a fashion
similar to that suggested by your professor.  Perhaps this is life
imitating fancy?

And, finally, back to your prof, it is true that many of the Puritan
critics of May Day customs wrote extensively & rather pruriently on their
belief that scarcely a maid who went out to the woods to gather may
(greens) came home undefiled--a belief not apparently supported by birth
statistics...but since the plaited dance in England was a early-Victorian
introduction (see Roy Judge's work on this topic), they were not in a
position to connect the two concepts of ribbons & naughtiness, though
doubtless they would of if they could of.

Allison (needing to practice Yoga breathing now) Thompson




   
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:45:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:45:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200209181545.g8IFjG102546-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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ACFerg-AT-
cs.com writes:
> 
>    Personally, I don't have any problems with the designation MECD.  I think 
> we all know what we mean by it.  However, as the son and nephew of historians 
> I know the kind of flea in the ear that issues of periodization can be for 
> members of that profession.  Therefore, maybe we should adopt the more 
> cumbersome and inelegant designation PSECD for Post-Sharp ECD, thereby 
> sidestepping both the morass surrounding the term "modern" and the question 
> of whether Sharp "revived" an older dance form called ECD or created 
> something largely new.

   Would earlier versions then be referred to as "BSECD" for Before Sharp
ECD?

Jonathan

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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
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Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:50:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:49:58 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100302b9ae50d44d0e-AT-
[140.186.55.52]>
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At 10:45 AM -0500 9/18/02, Jonathan Sivier wrote:
>    Would earlier versions then be referred to as "BSECD" for Before Sharp
>ECD?

Oh, yes, yes!!!!  Let's be a precise as we possibly can so that we 
can finally get to enjoying dancing, after this discussion.

;-)
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:00:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:56:27 -0400
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: antiquated dance forms
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b9ae4fae3af0-AT-
[192.168.1.101]>
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risk.sungard.com>

All this talk of old vs new has reminded me -- if you live in the 
Boston area, and have kids in the 12-17 year old range, you might be 
interested in the "Young Person's Civil War Ball" this Saturday 
(9/21/02) 7-10 pm, in Somerville on the Fellsway.  It's free!

More information can be found at www.vintagedancers.org, along with 
info about upcoming Balls and workshops oriented toward adults and 
costing money, but I do feel I should add that while the YPCWB is 
free, reservations (in the form of a phone call) are required.  Yes, 
you can call at the last minute (though we'd rather have you call 
earlier) but DO call.

--Mike Bergman

p.s.  There are a moderate number of similarities between 
mid-nineteenth century dances and MECD (or HUECD, or PMECD, or PSECD, 
or ECDTWWDIH,NTWTDIOT (ECD The Way We Do It Here, Not The Way They Do 
It Over There :-)).  As has been mentioned recently, CS was probably 
influenced by Victorian dance styles when he developed his 
reconstructions, and (not recently mentioned) later interpreters have 
added, at least in some areas, for example, waltz steps, bringing 
(some) MECD even closer to CW dance (where a mix of couple dances and 
set dances is normal XXX MAINSTREAM and well documented historically).

Have I put in enough disclaimers to avoid making people feel I am 
unfairly mischaracterizing their particular local forms of ECD?  I 
certainly hope so!

--Michael
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:02:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:56:14 -0400
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Maypole Baloney
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4C1BAED1.1B4C9EE7.0003FAAA-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:35:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com> writes:

>Barbara wrote:
>
>> I am reminded of a Yale English Professor (expert in Hardy)... who
>confidently explained to me that maypole dances
>> were an old fertility rite, the point of the dance being that when
>> originally done in English villages, the laddies and lasses who 
>> found themselves next to each other by the tangling of the ribbons
>would
>> then go off together into the woods to consummate the ritual. 
...
>
>I am really aggravated by the amount of romantic hooey on the topic of
>English traditional customs that is published and promulgated every day
>in children's books on holidays, in many popular reference sources and on
>the web. ...
>Allison (needing to practice Yoga breathing now) Thompson


According to Stan Rogers, morris dancing is a fertility rite, and he had "seen whole audiences impregnated" as a result of performances. Sorry he's not around so we can question his sources. 

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
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Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:01:35 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: antiquated dance forms
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020918105949.00aa68a0-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <OF75FB842A.02A2E4D5-ON85256C38.004DDB89-AT-
risk.sungard.com>


>
>
>p.s.  There are a moderate number of similarities between mid-nineteenth 
>century dances and MECD (or HUECD, or PMECD, or PSECD, or 
>ECDTWWDIH,NTWTDIOT (ECD The Way We Do It Here, Not The Way They Do It Over 
>There :-)).  As has been mentioned recently, CS was probably influenced by 
>Victorian dance styles when he developed his reconstructions, and (not 
>recently mentioned) later interpreters have added, at least in some areas, 
>for example, waltz steps, bringing (some) MECD even closer to CW dance 
>(where a mix of couple dances and set dances is normal XXX MAINSTREAM and 
>well documented historically).
>
>Have I put in enough disclaimers to avoid making people feel I am unfairly 
>mischaracterizing their particular local forms of ECD?  I certainly hope so!
>
>--Michael
GREAT!!!

>In Madison we have several ECDTWWDIH,NTWTDIOT but have troupble 
>occasionally when one of our dances reminds us that  IYDECDTIWBD is 
>proper  (If You Do ECD There It Will Be Different)).




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:17:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:15:01 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mr. Isaac
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <7E90E3BE.24B38907.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just to clarify...

I was using Mr. Isaac as a generic example -- a rhetorical flourish -- not as the ideal or only model.  And I did qualify with << or dancer of choice >> since he would only be representative of country dancing at a particular time and even then not the only representative.  It's just that there aren't many specific names to associate with country dance (at least that I know of) -- and he is at least referenced in Pepys (and perhaps other places).  So I merely took his in vain.

Suzanne

 the Dancing Master
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:22:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:22:15 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: modernity and its discontents, take 2
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <F588cobC32qU4Z5flHg000086d3-AT-
hotmail.com>
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Somewhere (it seems) in the wilds of Oregon, desperately trying to 
re-program his laptop despite the grizzly bears and such critters gnawing at 
his ankles, Prof Dr Winston stated:

***

"Oh, and first a sidenote. Steve, "modern" in different disciplines isn't 
all aligned on the same date.  "Modern dance" doesn't begin with the 
formation of nation-states in Europe - why should "Modern ECD" do so?)"

***

I didn't refer to a single start date or even century. I said it typically 
is defined as beginning from 16th-18th cs, depending on what is being 
discussed. But regardless, I would argue that practically any European 
cultural/ social historian interested in the past few centuries -- which is 
the historical context of ECDism -- would regard Whacky Jack Playford and 
Beany Cecil Sharp as both moderns. A pretty broad range of moderns, true, 
but still both are European moderns. Unless you class Beany as more 
"postmodern." Seems unlikely, but then those postmodernistas will try 
anything.

My impression is that "modern dance" as a style/ type/ form has less to do 
with "when" than "what" or "who." That is, modern dance... I'm about to put 
my foot into it now... Is Martha Grahamarian and her ilk. While obviously 
therefore modern dance has a start date -- when MG and her ilk developed the 
style, it doesn't really have an end date, any more than, oh, morris dance 
does. The point in "modern dance" is what it is, not when it is, within 
those bounds. I probably explained that badly. In fact I am certain of it. 
Oh well.

And I still haven't heard when / where the expression "Modern" ECD was 
originated/ perpetrated/ etc. Any volunteers? That is a serious question -- 
what is "modern" ECD and why? I don't see any obvious, intuitive answer. But 
I would suspect that the term "Modern ECD" is an attempt to differentiate 
between the Sharpie Revival and Other Revivals. Terminologically speaking, I 
vote for "PMECD" meaning other "postmodern ECD" or "pointlessly muddled 
ECD." Depending on circumstances.

And then there is Allison Thompson, vainly and bravely trying to pull us 
back from the collective disputatious disaster which looms ahead like a... 
a... oh nuts. She said something about an article proclaiming that Western 
squares developed from a combo of Morris dances and cotillions. This is 
certainly wrong. Western squares developed from sword dances and nothing 
else. Actually, a common expression used by German and Dutch sword dance 
writers is "chain sword dances" (reizwaarddans, in Dutch, or so I've seen it 
written) for what Anglos tend to call "linked" s.d. And since "chain" is a 
common expression in squares... I need go no further. Nor farther. It's 
obvious.

yrs
Steve C.



Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:28:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Found ECD Barbara (Re: Alive, alive-o!)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918162811.44787.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:

> La Barbarina (had
> she stooped to 'social dancing,' which seems doubtful) would very
> likely
> have deemed Essex's dances bizarre, and a bore to boot.

Graham,
Shouldn't that be the Countess Barbara Rina?

(for the puzzled many, that also is a joke).


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:37:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:33:36 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <7778B21E.73DA34B0.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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One could argue that there is no Before Sharp ECD for us.  Since without his work we all wouldn't be here.  Or at least we'd be having a different discussion.  I suppose you could have HECD -- historically informed ECD.  But I have no idea what you'd call the mishmash we do at the average dance -- or even at Pinewoods.  MECD -- mongrel ECD?

I'm really kidding now.  Really. Kidding. Honest. OK?

And I apologize for the weird format my posts seem to be taking in various people's computers.  Does anyone have an idea why this could be happening?

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:39:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:40:20 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Alive, alive-o!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5E668420.47A26B8A.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wow.  I am humbled by this post.  He said it all.

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:05:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:54:42 +0100
From: Trev <trevuk-AT-
hotpop.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: How it is over here
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000001c25f3d$f549e660$a64279d5-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <000001c25dc0$3be28480$0200a8c0-AT-
ntworld.com>

After a weekend away (dancing - would you believe?) what an ECD list of
mailing to come back to!  After a quick browse, I think it may be
pertinent to add the following.

In England I have hardly heard our dancing called "ECD" and I have never
heard of "MECD" except on this list.  I think if you asked any English
folk dancer (of any variety, age or brand) what MECD was they may think
it a new cereal or washing powder.

At a normal club night, or at a dance with big name caller and band,
they would not know the difference between English longways or American
contra, English squares or American square, Playford published, Sharp or
any one else researched or recently composed dances - the caller calls
them and we dance them, whatever they are, without even thinking about
any differentiation between them.  It is only the odd fanatic that
enjoys topics such as these on the ECD list (and I think we are few and
far between).

Michael's comment "Tea is typically the interval drink."  At many dances
you can now get coffee as well, and sometimes orange squash is available
too.

And his comments about people travelling up to 20-30 miles for a well
known caller & band.  I think this should really be increased up to
120 -130 miles nowadays. When putting on dances in Sheffield, we now get
people regularly travelling from Barrow, Liverpool, Blackpool,
Ross-on-Wye, Lincoln, Birmingham etc. etc., as well as some from a lot
closer - who all have local clubs.  We also travel to their dances, and
think nothing of travelling 100 miles or so for a dance.

As well as folk festivals, which are still well attended for many
reasons, another activity which seems to be increasing is the
"Residential Weekend" were a caller or group organises a whole weekend
of (ECD/MECD??) dance normally with just one caller and one band.
Numbers are normally limited to about 50-70 depending on the actual
venue, and everything is included on site from dancing to eating to
beds.  These weekend ventures to seem to be on the increase (or am I
just hearing more about them as we have started going on them?)

And to Suzanne who stated "Unless you have a video of Mr. Isaac (or
someone else of your choice) dancing, there is no way to know how close
any of this would be to the "real" 17th (or 18th) century thing."  may I
add the following?  For the historians amongst you, I do not know how
true this is, but if any one could confirm the following....!!

I am a member of the Grenoside Sword Dance Team, and have been told that
there is at least one American sword dance team who do some of our
figures the wrong way round - going anti-clockwise instead of clockwise.
On asking them why, the answer was "because that is how the video of the
team do it!"  On further investigation it was found that Cath Mitchell
 who taught me folk dance in school in the 50's) had filmed Grenoside
with her cine camera - she did a lot of recording.  When video recording
became popular, EFDSS put some of her cine film onto video, but had
managed to put a couple of the reels in the projector the wrong way
round, which recorded these figures as a mirror image!!  These other
teams then used the videos to learn the dance, not knowing they were
dancing half of it completely the wrong way round.

So, if you are that team - please let me know.

Trevor Monson


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:13:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020918181337.2650.qmail-AT-
web13806.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Dear Cammy, 

> When I first started Morris dancing, I was drawn to
> the idea that I might be creating magic through
dance
> ....Then "scholars" in the morris world began to
> discourage us from making such claims since the
> historical tradition was so clearly one of
> entertainment and not ritual. I paused for only one
> moment and then went right on with my magic....

I have always felt that dancing is magic. It goes back
to religion that is non-verbal and doesn't come out of
a book. The "scholars" are only people who are hung up
on other people seeing things their way, but I am my
own authority. I take joy in finding the sacred in the
ordinary.

Lyrl




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Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:18:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:16:48 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: How it is over here
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <787B6856.5D581A88.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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So the term, "Let's go to the video tape" should be taken with a grain (or two) of salt!  OY!

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:28:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:30:06 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Maypole Baloney
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D88C62E.F4CE1DF6-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <4C1BAED1.1B4C9EE7.0003FAAA-AT-
aol.com>

CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> According to Stan Rogers, morris dancing is a fertility rite, and he had "seen whole audiences impregnated" as a result of performances. Sorry he's not around so we can question his sources.

A side issue having nothing to do with springtime luncheon meats, but
according to my spies -- ok, fine, according to Alistair Brown -- Stan's
odd, half-but-only-half-joking issues about morris dancing spring from the
days, waaaaay back in the mists of time, when he'd show up at Toronto
Morris rehearsals with his guitar, wanting to play with the band, and get
turned away for having a non-traditional instrument. 

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:48:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:48:27 -0700
From: bruce_hamilton-AT-
agilent.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Formats
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <FC0B9DA2600ED4118F76009027AA5DDD038D66AA-AT-
ALEX2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

When Suzanne Ford posts, I see a zillion lines like:

V2hpbGUgSSBkaWRuJ3QgaW50ZW5kIHRvIHNheSBtb3JlIG9uIHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0
LCBJIGRvIGZlZWwgSSBzaG91bGQgY2xhcmlmeSBteSBwb2ludC4gIEluIGRvaW5n
IHRoaXMsIEkgYW0gbm90IHNldHRpbmcgbXlzZWxmIHVwIGluIG9wcG9zaXRpb24g
...

I really do want to hear what she has to say.  Can anyone suggest what she or I ought to do to change this?  I'm reading on MS Outlook.

  -Bruce Hamilton
(without his .sig because he's writing on a borrowed laptop in a classroom in Florida)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:17:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:17:24 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mr. Isaac
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF334107B5.D7396D2A-ON85256C38.006DE182-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Dear The Dancing Master,
I did not mean to imply that Mr. Isaac expressed himself as I might, but it
sure made a good example! The serious part of my reply was that focusing
attention on the video of anyone (your dancer of choice included) is a
really risky way to try to arrive at a hypothesis about how dance was done
at a moment in time. To put it another way, I applauded and agreed with
everything you up to the sentence:
Unless you have a video of Mr. Isaac (or someone else of your choice)
dancing, there is no way to know how close any of this would be to the
"real" 17th (or 18th) century thing.
It is my opinion that this could only result in a very individualized and
distorted hypothesis of the real style at that moment in time and in that
place and is hardly better than the other tactics we employ in absence of
video footage. For one thing, I feel as certain as I do about anything,
that aside from the personal differences in styling of individuals, the ECD
genres of the past were as dialectic and diverse as the styles are today
but much more so.
Cammy




                                                                                                                                   
                      SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com                                                                                             
                      Sent by:                         To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        cc:                                                                         
                      TANFORD.EDU                      Subject:  Re: Mr. Isaac                                                     
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      18-Sep-2002 12:15 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




Just to clarify...

I was using Mr. Isaac as a generic example -- a rhetorical flourish -- not
as the ideal or only model.  And I did qualify with << or dancer of choice
>> since he would only be representative of country dancing at a particular
time and even then not the only representative.  It's just that there
aren't many specific names to associate with country dance (at least that I
know of) -- and he is at least referenced in Pepys (and perhaps other
places).  So I merely took his in vain.

Suzanne

 the Dancing Master




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:30:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:27:57 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Formats
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <246EDA92.1368194B.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

This is making me feel quite self-conscious.  Am I the only one this happens to?

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:39:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:41:29 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mr. Isaac
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <30244B70.23B89BD1.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Well, I'd respond that you have to take in any experience -- visual, audio or virtual -- with your mind engaged.  If you look at (or experience in some way) something and think it's the ultimate or only representation as opposed to one of many that's your problem. 

Not that I'm talking about *you* specifically, but *one* generally.  

:-) Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:00:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:00:45 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Formats
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF39F06EB1.ADCDD4EF-ON85256C38.0078AC95-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


Bruce and the others who had trouble with Suzanne's posts,
They are well worth reading. Lest you miss out until the problem is
resolved I will forward the two with the most content.
CK


                                                                                                                                   
                      bruce_hamilton-AT-
agilent.co                                                                                    
                      m                                To:       ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Formats                                                           
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      18-Sep-2002 02:48 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




When Suzanne Ford posts, I see a zillion lines like:

V2hpbGUgSSBkaWRuJ3QgaW50ZW5kIHRvIHNheSBtb3JlIG9uIHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0
LCBJIGRvIGZlZWwgSSBzaG91bGQgY2xhcmlmeSBteSBwb2ludC4gIEluIGRvaW5n
IHRoaXMsIEkgYW0gbm90IHNldHRpbmcgbXlzZWxmIHVwIGluIG9wcG9zaXRpb24g
...

I really do want to hear what she has to say.  Can anyone suggest what she
or I ought to do to change this?  I'm reading on MS Outlook.

  -Bruce Hamilton
(without his .sig because he's writing on a borrowed laptop in a classroom
in Florida)




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:02:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:02:03 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MECD (Suzanne's first post on this topic)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF72DD9D96.465E781F-ON85256C38.00787CE5-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Does this work?

----- Forwarded by Campbell Kaynor/Cambridge/Biogen on 09/18/02 05:56 PM
-----
                                                                                                                                   
                      SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com                                                                                             
                      Sent by:                         To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        cc:                                                                         
                      TANFORD.EDU                      Subject:  Re: MECD                                                          
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      16-Sep-2002 10:29 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




I have to say I'm a little discouraged (not to say fed up) with the
increasing use of MECD as distinct from ECD in our ongoing discussions.
Not the term per se, but the fact that it has the potential to divide us
into artificial camps -- taking an already small entity and cutting it up
into smaller and smaller parts.  For what purpose?  Philosophically, I'm
with Steve Corrsin on this (assuming I understood the essence of his post
though I wouldn't presume to speak for him).  It's all modern or certainly
contemporary.

We do English Country Dancing -- as revived by Cecil Sharp who rediscovered
dances from the volumes of John Playford (and other 17th and 18th century
sources), further developed by his disciples and followers, and expanded in
new ways up to the present. In the 100 or so years since Sharp, there have
been many refinements, modifications, increased understandings of the
historical contexts, reinterpretations, additions to the repertoire, etc.,
etc.  Perhaps I'm alone, but I assumed all this fell under the general
umbrella of English Country Dance.  Even though it's old, we're doing it
now not then.  It is by definition modern / contemporary.

Though I've experienced contemporary ECD only in its social dance context,
I realize that there are other contexts in which some other forms
(interpretations?)of ECD are performed, taught and danced -- SCA, Star Trek
conventions, historical recreations, other?  Is one more authentically ECD
than the other?  I'm not prepared to go there and I hope we don't try.
What you do is MECD.  What I do is ??? (Or vice versa.)

To my mind it's all modern ECD -- the dances Sharp reconstructed with his
limited (one could say) knoweledge, the dances created today using new and
old tunes and figures in the common ECD vocabulary, and the most thoughtful
and informed efforts to recreate the "historical" dance as it might have
been done at the court of Charles II, the Restoration theater -- or
anywhere else during its historical lifetime.

So, what is authentic or historical?  How authentic can we get given that
we can't channel someone who was actually there for instruction.  Does it
even matter?

I spent some years as a harpsichordist (early music person)wrestling with
these very issues.  Absolutely, playing music written for the harpsichord
(or baroque flute or baroque violin, etc.) brings you (the performer and
the audience) closer to the origins of the music.  Dealing with the
physical and acoustic properties of the "thing that produces the music" as
well as exploring the possibilities on the printed page (ie the music) and
it's historical context is definitely exciting,  ear-opening, challenging
and worth doing.  It's certainly possible to pretend that you've time
traveled.  But is it authentic?  To my mind, the most historically informed
performance on the closest possible historical instrument in the most
historically accurate performance space will only get you so far.  To
presume that hearing even the most completely realized historically
informed performance today is anything remotely like hearing what Bach or
Handel or Mozart or Beethoven or Mr. Isaac heard or experienced back in the
17th, 18th or even 19th centuries is an absolute fantasy.  A profound
disservice to the people making the music.  And a pointless exercise as
well.  The important thing is to make music.  Can we even forget our own
time and somehow get back there for an authentic experience?  Doubtful.
Our sound world is completely different, there's the intervening 200 years
of music since, our venues are different, the entire context we bring to
the listening experience is different.  Can we appreciate it, love it, and
continue to make valid, exciting music?  Absolutely.  Are we back in the
18th century just because we play a Bach keyboard suite on a harpsichord?
Is it remotely like what Bach heard?  Probably not.  Is that any reason to
stop doing it.  Absolutely not.

The same thing applies to this pointless issue of ECD vs MECD.  More
historically correct than thou.  No one today is dancing country dance the
way it was done in its own time.  No matter how much research or mental
leaping we try to do -- we can only get so close.  And we still have only
the fuzziest idea of how close is close.  Though it's certainly
intellectually stimulating and exciting to try and the journey can be
completely valid and worthwhile.  But in any event, we don't have the
social context or any of those external trappings.  And we bring other
social conventions of our own time that will always set us apart -- no
matter how hard we try to project (or pretend) ourselves back in time. I
suppose you can pretend to be Lord or Lady Teazel -- however one imagines
they might have been -- but that hardly makes for an authentic historical
context.

So why tie ourselves in knots with these ever more refined distinctions
which may have meaning for only some of us.  It's all ECD -- developed in
the last 100 years of the modern revival -- brand new, Sharp and
modifications of Sharp, searching for the historical basis with ever
increasing knowledge and understanding.  But unless someone can zap Mr.
Isaac (or historical dancer of choice) into the present so he/she can show
us what and how it was done -- it's only a guess.  A wonderful, fun guess.
Even a highly informed guess.  But still fundamentally a guess.  Even if
one interpretation is closer to some imagined reality than the other, one
person's definitive is another person's conjecture.

But looking at it another way, with joy of discovery and invention in the
modern evolution of ECD, perhaps the least historically informed is the
closest to the actual spirit of ECD.  We'll never know.  But at least it's
still a living thing.

Suzanne // I don't care, it's all ECD to me







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----- Forwarded by Campbell Kaynor/Cambridge/Biogen on 09/18/02 06:02 PM
-----
                                                                                                                                   
                      SFORDNYC-AT-
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                      Sent by:                         To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        cc:                                                                         
                      TANFORD.EDU                      Subject:  Re: MECD                                                          
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      17-Sep-2002 03:59 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




While I didn't intend to say more on the subject, I do feel I should
clarify my point.  In doing this, I am not setting myself up in opposition
to anyone.  My opinion is informed in its own way -- I am merely expressing
it fully.

In a message dated Tue, 17 Sep 2002 6:31:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
susan-AT-
generalist.org writes:

> The purpose would be to make a distinction between different forms of
> country dance - the modern living tradition form and the various
> historical forms.  You may not care about that distinction
> or feel that
> is worth making.  Others differ.

It's not that I don't care about the distinction or feel it's not worth
making -- my point is that there is no distinction and creating one is
artificial.  The "modern living tradition form" and the "various historical
forms" are both points on the continuum of ECD as danced throughout its
revival in the 20th century, right this very minute in the year 2002, and
on into the future.  I do not accept the proposition that "historical
forms" of ECD are somehow "real" ECD or more real than other forms.
However it's done, it's a modern construct -- an interpretation of primary
sources coupled with an informed, creative imagination.  Unless you have a
video of Mr. Isaac (or someone else of your choice) dancing, there is no
way to know how close any of this would be to the "real" 17th (or 18th)
century thing.  To claim it is not to be it.  And I further submit, that
the alternative "modern living tradition" (as you call it) is not some
"other" ECD, less real, and somehow farther away from its historical past.
It is simply another form of reconstructed dance -- equally creative and
constantly evolving.  Which is also true of our understanding of ways to
reconstruct in the historical sense -- this has also evolved and continues
to do so.  So how could it be definitive?

And as I also said previously, my fundamental belief that there is no
definitive historical truth -- does not mean that the efforts of historical
reconstruction are exercises in futility or not worth doing.  They are
eminently worthwhile in themselves -- and for the understanding of the
historical form that we can glean and learn from -- not to say enjoy.

I just don't need to make a clear cut distinction between all these
incarnations of ECD as we know it.  And I do resist being put into an
intellectual box by someone else.  But I wouldn't argue with your right to
do it (pace Voltaire).

Suzanne // enjoyer of ECD on as many levels as possible



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Oh, yes, yes!!!!  Let's be a precise as we possibly can so that we 
can finally get to enjoying dancing, after this discussion.

;-)
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson

Which brings me right back to my question - unanswered as yet - about your
favorite 'Magic Moments' in ECD, B-, M-, BS- and other interpretations.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny


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Trevor,
Sibyl Clark also taught Grenoside the 'wrong way' at Berea in the 70s...

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:23:24 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle-AT-
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Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents, take 2
To: ECD-AT-
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"Stephen D. Corrsin" wrote:

> And I still haven't heard when / where the expression "Modern" ECD was
> originated/ perpetrated/ etc. Any volunteers? That is a serious question --
> what is "modern" ECD and why? I don't see any obvious, intuitive answer. But

I'll take a SWAG...  Back in the mists of time there wasn't a separate
ECD list.  Many ECD dancers hung out on the Rendance list.  The Rendance
scholars would often get annoyed with the ECD and point out the ECD,
even historically-informed ECD, is not a Renaissance dance form.  After
awhile Alan spawned this list (thank you!) so the ECD community could
discuss all aspects of ECD.  So, if I had to guess, I'd say "MECD"
probably came about from those days to distinguish as-now-danced ECD
from the historical forms that belonged on the Renaissance dance list. 
Had I more time I'd do an archive dive for both lists and see when it
first appeared.

--Charlene

-- 
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases
to be serious when they laugh. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Subject: Re: Calling Graham & Wendy (with apologies to the List)
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I apologize for imposing this individual message on the assembled multitude -- especially since many of you receive them in some weird form, BUT...

If Graham or Wendy Knight see this post would one of you please reply to me directly.  I'll be in Oxford next week -- September 25-28.  I've tried to email you directly a couple of times but messages to each using the addresses from this year's English Week list have been bounced back as undeliverable.  I don't know what else to do.  It looks like I'll be free on Friday evening the 27th if that works with your plans -- the rest of the time I'll be occupied with my OUP colleagues.  

I realize this is more than anyone on this list wanted to know, but it's a last resort.  (Until I get to the UK when I could call, of course.)

Thanking the List for it's indulgence...
Suzanne
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Subject: Re: How it is over here
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No - it's just a wonderful example of PMFT - Post Modern Folk Tradition.

John Meechan

John Meechan Training
024 76 744211
john-AT-
jmtraining.org
www.jmtraining.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
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Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: How it is over here


> So the term, "Let's go to the video tape" should be taken with a grain (or
two) of salt!  OY!
>
> Suzanne


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From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
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Subject: Re: Alive, alive-o!
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Graham wrote:

> I think you've misunderstood Suzanne a bit. She precisely says that the
> necessary impossibility of a full reconstruction of the experience of 1670
> or whatever is no reason not to try our best and to enjoy it--just not to
> kid ourselves.

I am a big fan of not kidding ourselves.  I disagree with her that a 
distinction between Sharp-inspired ECD and historically-informed ECD is
pointless (which is the word she used for the distinction).  The _purposes_
are different, the decisions are different, the outcomes are different.

Since I'm here in Oregon at the Shakespeare Festival, I'll use the treatment of
Shakespeare as an analogy; Shakespeare's plays have served nearly as many
cultural purposes as ECD.  

We cannot know exactly how Shakespeare's plays were originally presented.  The
earliest publication has some texts that we know are corrupt.  The style of the
day was to be chary with stage directions and leave out "how to play this"
directions altogether.  We've got pretty good research on the design of open
air theatres (the World, if not the Globe); we've got some ideas about
performance practices; we've got the account books of some acting companies and
can draw inferences.  Can we stage a performance of a Shakespearean play that
is 100% authentic?  No.  If we could, would it have the same meaning to today's
audience that it had then?  No.  (Yes, I'm making the same points back to
Graham that he just made to me; I hope this shows I'm reading him - and they
were Suzanne's intended points too.)

Everybody who uses Shakespearean materials adapts them, to lesser or greater
degree.  Scripts are commonly cut, even in the most historically-informed
productions.  Adaptations range from using costumes and props to set the plays
in post-Shakespearean times (WWII, Victorian era, the 1960s) while keeping the
basic scripts roughly intact to musical adaptations of the texts ("Boys
From Syracuse", "Two Gentlemen of Verona", "Catch My Soul") to stories with
new scripts and new characters suggested by particular Shakespeare plays ("West
Side Story", "O", "King of Texas", "Joe Macbeth", and other movies - it's
usually movies, for some reason) to, well, books and films suggested by
Shakespeare's life, not to mention ballets, operas, bowdlerized texts and
children's stories derived from Shakespeare.

I don't think it would be constructive to insist that this is all
"Shakespeare", and that a distinction like saying "West Side Story" is "derived
from Shakespeare" is pointless - in fact, I think it actively harmful to
discourse to insist that different things are the same thing.  And that's my
problem with Suzanne's claim that the MECD/ECD distinction is a pointless one.

Yes, we're all moderns, so everything we do, no matter how much research is
involved, is modern interpretation of Shakespeare, but there's still a real,
significant distinction between  Shakespeare's, Verdi's, and Tim Blake Nelson's 
Othellos.  (This is extra true when we're just talking about texts, but I think
the point still holds for competent, respectful productions of the three
texts.)

If people want to call the Sharp-inspired dance stuff ECD and the
do-your-best-to-get-historical-accuracy stuff something else (HECD), that's
okay with me too.  But I don't think there's any point in claiming that, eg,
Keller & Sweet's Early American dance reconstruction, which had the purpose of
being presented as accurate historical recreation in the context of a
historical recreation project, is the very same stuff as material where
delighting modern participants is the goal and historical accuracy is not, and
that it's even unhelpful to do so.

(One might now say "I don't enjoy Early American because it's so
hippety-hoppety that it wears me out and the steps are complicated, but I
enjoy mainstream ECD."  If the distinction between "Early American" - which,
after all, uses steps and styles that we think were common in England and
France at that time, so it's really HECD - and modern or mainstream or
Sharp-style ECD - is pointless, then you can't make the distinction being made
in that sentence.  What is the benefit of not being able to make that
distinction?)


[In the current setup I'm using to post from my hotel room in Oregon, snipping
lots of text is extremely tedious.  So I won't do it.  I don't disagree with
the points Graham makes below.]


> I will remind us all that dance is *especially* elusive--perhaps more so
> even than music or drama or other arts that we might be inspired to perform
> or "re-perform." For instance, at this very moment, the surviving
> traditions of both George Balanchine and Martha Graham are hotly disputed.
> There are onlookers who vow that the dancers or companies who have the
> chief "right" to perform their works have already lost that certain special
> something. I believe it is Joan Acocella who has (not so long ago) wrung
> her hands while averring that during the acrimony following Martha Graham's
> death, crucial time was lost at the end of which Graham's good dancers and
> disciples had scattered or died, with the result that Graham's company is
> guessing about the true Graham style as much as anybody else. Several
> recent essays by Acocella and others have suggested that Balanchine's
> company is not doing his works "right."

> And I am referring here to famous and acclaimed choreographers who were
> living in living memory; whose works, *during their lifetimes*, have
> probably been seen by many contributors to this list. If this is the case,
> how can we hope to present anything better than respectful *tributes* to
> much older choreographies?

> What is exciting*, I think, and good news, is that English Country Dance
> is a *living* form. Of course we dance it in our own manner, secretly
> influenced by Astaire and Rogers, the Watergate scandal, vinyl, and
> strawberry-scented shampoo. It is laudable to reach back, to make as near
> an approach as we can to the dances of 1650 and 1788--but we inevitably
> change them. After all, *they* did, without much shame: La Barbarina (had
> she stooped to 'social dancing,' which seems doubtful) would very likely
> have deemed Essex's dances bizarre, and a bore to boot.

I loved the writing in that last paragraph, incidentally.  

I am not even arguing that it _is_ laudable "to make as near an approach as we
can to the dances of 1650 and 1788"; I'm just arguing that to do so is
_different_ from what Sharp-following ECD does.  Not morally superior, but a
different enterprise. (I think I've managed not to say "authentic" in this
posting so far, because Camus and that crowd have managed to make
"authenticity" a moral virtue; indeed, the only moral virtue.)


> All of that said [he said, carefully attaching Lady Suzanne's favor to his
> helmet], Suzanne doesn't deem the search for authenticity pointless: she
> simply reminds us that you come to an endpoint eventually.

No argument with that, of course, although that's true with most searches for
absolutes.  I claim - now I know I'm beating this into the ground - that this
was a search that Sharp was not engaged in with country-dance reconstruction. 
He was doing a different thing. It's useful to have a different name for it
than for what Keller&Sweet were doing, or Ken Pierce is doing, and objecting to
having a different name for it is an obstruction to not kidding ourselves.

That's the end of the new material in this post.

-- Alan


> In truth, what we are suffering from now is an embarrassment of riches: we
> have moved out of the era of the pioneers.  When Cecil Sharp interpreted
> dances, there was nary a one who could have disputed his readings or
> offered an alternative (Kidson perhaps? one or two others in the *world*
> then?). Now, in this astonishing renaissance of the form, there are many
> more authorities and resources that can inform (and occasionally confuse)
> us: kinetics and kinaesthetics and historically-informed performance and
> new research and convincing studies on differing learning styles and...

> It isn't just up to Mr. Sharp anymore, as the only one who knew anything.
> It's up to all of us: it's a *living* form--our burden and our privilege.

> Graham Christian
> Technical Writer, Product Management
> Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
> Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
> Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
> SunGard T


> **********************************************************************
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===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
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 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
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Dear Hanny,
I am having a VERY difficult time trying to identify any moment as my
"favorite" since most of my ECD experiences are pleasurable and all moments
are so different that it is like comparing Apples and Oranges or Oranges
and Lemons (Limons). There is, however, a momentus occasion that stands out
above all others as the point in time that I became an instant convert to
ECD and that was at my first ECD while learning the Sheepskin Hey in
Picking of Sticks from Frank and Joy Van Cleef at the Footprints Gallery in
Manchester CT.
Cammy

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Subject: The point of ECD (was: Re: Alive, alive-o!)
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--On Thursday, September 19, 2002 2:36 AM -0700 Alan Winston - SSRL Central 
Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote:

> I am a big fan of not kidding ourselves.  I disagree with her that a
> distinction between Sharp-inspired ECD and historically-informed ECD is
> pointless (which is the word she used for the distinction).  The
> _purposes_ are different, the decisions are different, the outcomes are
> different.

One concept that I haven't seen surface yet in this discussion is that some 
of these considerations can very well be pointless for some and very 
significant for others; people naturally have a wide range of interests and 
the various forms of ECD attract (and repel) for a correspondingly wide 
range of reasons.  The whole field is enriched by this, but as the range of 
reasons enlarges, so does the range of aspects of it that particular 
individuals are _not_ interested in.

That's fine; there's no way everybody can be interested in all parts of it, 
except perhaps as a chronicler of what is taking place, especially when the 
principles guiding one branch are in part in contradiction to those guiding 
another.  As long as folks are willing to acknowledge that other folks who 
share some interests with them can still differ in the reason for that 
interest and therefore for the emphasis that they put on different aspects 
of their dance activity, they should still be able to share some common 
information and perhaps broaden their knowledge, if not their interests, 
about the subject as a whole.  But if they look down their noses at others 
who enjoy it differently, then there is little opportunity for them to 
share the enjoyment of what they have in common.

But it sometimes happens that even without deliberate disrespect for those 
who have different interests, the amount to which their interests overlap 
may be so small that the benefit of sharing information is, or appears to 
be, overwhelmed by the difficulty in establishing reliable methods of 
communication, and then the different groups tend to become isolated from 
each other.  I think we see all degrees of this, between the various 
interest groups within generic ECD (GECD?!) as practiced in the US, the UK, 
& elsewhere, and between that and American contra & squares (E. & W.), 
English ceilidh, and other variants.

Eric Arnold

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Subject: Re: How it is over here
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Hanny said "> Sibyl Clark also taught Grenoside the 'wrong way' at Berea
in the 70s..."

Thanks for that - another one for the records?

With all these letters being bandied around - can anyone (Alan?) tell me
what "ECD" is please?  Is it a style, a period, a time or what?

Cheers,
Trev




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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:22:10 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Magic Moments
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
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Hi Cammy,
those are EXACTLY the 'magic moments' I'm referring to! So, we have
Sheepskin Hey in 'Picking up sticks'
Poussettes in    'Orleans Baffled'
2nd lady's path  'Zephyrs and Flora' at the transition from one to the
                 next sequence
Any other nominations anyone?

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

                 
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:42:05 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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The moment just before the two ladies cast or dance up in Aily.  The 
precious moment is frequently completely eviscerated by either the 
second lady failing to return to her home place after the advance and 
retire, or by her failing to comprehend that she's supposed to follow 
the first lady into her new position.  Just trudging up the side 
really saps the entire figure of its shape, as well as of it's 
intimacy and flow.  Failing to make eye contact with the first lady 
so that the two begin moving tout ensemble also destroys the whole 
situation.

The magic moment is that of the eye contact when so many aspects of 
the rendition of the figure are resolved.

Being as how I'm a lady I cite that moment from my perspective.  Not 
being a gent I don't know whether it's a special moment for the gents 
on their side. 
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:40:44 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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<<those are EXACTLY the 'magic moments' I'm referring to! So, we have
Sheepskin Hey in 'Picking up sticks'
Poussettes in    'Orleans Baffled'
2nd lady's path  'Zephyrs and Flora' at the transition from one to the
                 next sequence
Any other nominations anyone?>>

The forming and unforming of the star in "John Tallis's Canon".

Peace,
Paul
                 


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:51:32 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The point of ECD (was: Re: Alive, alive-o!)
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As I think Arnold says,
I am one who doesn't think it is "pointless" to designate but I don't place
a lot of importance on the distinctions. I had never thought of segregating
ECD in this way with MEDC, PMEDC... I have often spoken of "Playford-style"
dances (which just happen to be my favorite of the ECD) when referring to
the dances in the Dancing Master (up until 1728) and everything since that
emulates that genre. I do this usually so that people who attend won't be
expecting repertoire I am unlikely to provide. Until this list I thought
ECD meant ALL ECD.
The only confusion for me about that designation is that I personally do
not consider dances written in the style of American dance as functionally
ECD even if the author is British, though many others do. (For example, I
do Pat Shaw dances such as Levi Jackson Rag and Walpole Cottage during the
contradances and not at my English dances. Conversely I lead many dances
written by Americans in the English style during the ECD dances so - the
origin of the author/composer/choreographer is less important to me than
the style of the work).

I do not object to and in fact I enjoy learning about the other
subdivisions of ECD. That one person's specialty or personal preference is
from another place or time does not make there contributions any the less
valid or useful to me. Often I find them more so. And on the other hand, I
do not feel we NEED to identify ourselves as from a particular subset
before our opinions are heard. It is exciting to gradually learn who does
Morris, Contra, Scandinavian, Swing, Regency, Victorian, MECD, etc... after
the fact.

Now, that said, I have a suggestion that hence forth we use the acronym
supplied by Suzanne and forwarded by Bruce:

V2hpbGUgSSBkaWRuJ3QgaW50ZW5kIHRvIHNheSBtb3JlIG9uIHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0
LCBJIGRvIGZlZWwgSSBzaG91bGQgY2xhcmlmeSBteSBwb2ludC4gIEluIGRvaW5n
IHRoaXMsIEkgYW0gbm90IHNldHRpbmcgbXlzZWxmIHVwIGluIG9wcG9zaXRpb24g

to describe those of us who - oh this will be fun to invent!
CK


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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:40:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: gmurrow-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re:Re: How it is over here
To: ECD-AT-
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CC: 
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---------- Trev <trevuk-AT-
hotpop.com> writes:

> ...

> With all these letters being bandied around - can anyone (Alan?) tell > me what "ECD" is please?  Is it a style, a period, a time or what?

At the moment, it's "Extended Contentious Discussion"   :-)

Gene




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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:24:19 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyecd1-AT-
primate.mailshell.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 5:31 PM -0400, on 9/13/02, Hanny D. Budnick wrote:

>I don't mean "anything - with my special partner" but rather those where a
>particular dance figure or combination of figures just sends you to
>dancers' heaven. I nominate
>a) the poussettes in Orleans Baffled, and
>b) the path of the second lady from the end of one sequence of Zephyrs
>    and Flora to the beginning of the next.
>What are yours?

<pop Zen ON>

Warning: "Magic Moments" can occur at any time, without warning, when 
you least expect it.

I believe when we have no expectations is when we are most open to 
magic moments.

They can happen during the sheepskin hey. They can happen anywhere 
else in that dance or any dance. They can happen between dances. They 
can happen at the supermarket. Even while having root canal surgery.

Why, I had a magic moment right here at my desk just thinking about 
some magic moments at Mendocino and elsewhere.

<pop Zen OFF>

I will now go brush and floss (don't want root canal surgery).
-- 
Gary "I'd rather be here now" Shapiro
My email address is temporary
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:53:29 PST
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:53:02 -0400
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Alive, alive-o!
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T1khICBXaGF0IGEgdGFuZ2xlZCB3ZWIgd2Ugd2VhdmUsIHdoZW4gd2UgdHJ5IHRv
IHNheSBhbnl0aGluZyBpbiB3cml0aW5nLi4uLg0KDQpFdmVuIHRob3VnaCBJIG1h
ZGUgYSBkZWZpbml0aXZlIHN0YXRlbWVudCBhYm91dCBob3cgSSBmZWVsIGFib3V0
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ZQ0K
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Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:55:44 PST
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:52:41 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: How it is over here
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Hi Trevor -
you KNOW how acronym-happy our world has become.....
What Americans, particularly in writing to an 'in' audience, call ECD
stands for English Country Dance. As opposed to SCD, the Scottish kind of
country dancing. There's a perfectly good German word 'Volkstanz'. Lately
I've seen it rendered as 'Folktanz', perhaps with a nod toward 'folklore'.
And so it goes.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

 
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:24:19 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyecd1-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 5:31 PM -0400, on 9/13/02, Hanny D. Budnick wrote:

>I don't mean "anything - with my special partner" but rather those where a
>particular dance figure or combination of figures just sends you to
>dancers' heaven. I nominate
>a) the poussettes in Orleans Baffled, and
>b) the path of the second lady from the end of one sequence of Zephyrs
>    and Flora to the beginning of the next.
>What are yours?

<pop Zen ON>

Warning: "Magic Moments" can occur at any time, without warning, when 
you least expect it.

I believe when we have no expectations is when we are most open to 
magic moments.

They can happen during the sheepskin hey. They can happen anywhere 
else in that dance or any dance. They can happen between dances. They 
can happen at the supermarket. Even while having root canal surgery.

Why, I had a magic moment right here at my desk just thinking about 
some magic moments at Mendocino and elsewhere.

<pop Zen OFF>

I will now go brush and floss (don't want root canal surgery).
-- 
Gary "I'd rather be here now" Shapiro
My email address is temporary
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:10:36 +0000
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
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I have been pondering the still-unanswered question of when/where the "M" 
came in.

As far as I can remember, my first encounter with it was in a discussion 
with Susan, drawing a distinction between the social dancing most of us do 
and the historical reconstructions from manuals that she has been doing. For 
the sake of convenience, _as shorthand in the discussion at hand_, I thought 
the term was coined then. Does anyone remember that?

(I tried scrolling through the archives, but haven't had any luck. The first 
time it came up in the subject listing was in early Jan 2002, by Charlene 
Charette, but it seems that the term was known before then.)

Margherita



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:54:30 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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<<I have been pondering the still-unanswered question of when/where the "M"
came in.

As far as I can remember, my first encounter with it was in a discussion
with Susan, drawing a distinction between the social dancing most of us do
and the historical reconstructions from manuals that she has been doing. For
the sake of convenience, _as shorthand in the discussion at hand_, I thought
the term was coined then. Does anyone remember that?>>

I do, and that was also my first encounter with the term -- but its aptness
is perhaps shown by the fact that I instantly understood what was meant, by
analogy with MWSD.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:13:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:15:05 -0400
From: Carolyn Worthing <worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <EKEBJNKEEFDMIIJBIHDHCEFJCPAA.worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>
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and what pray tell is MWSD?
carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]On Behalf Of Paul Stamler
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 12:55 AM
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"


<<I have been pondering the still-unanswered question of when/where the "M"
came in.

As far as I can remember, my first encounter with it was in a discussion
with Susan, drawing a distinction between the social dancing most of us do
and the historical reconstructions from manuals that she has been doing. For
the sake of convenience, _as shorthand in the discussion at hand_, I thought
the term was coined then. Does anyone remember that?>>

I do, and that was also my first encounter with the term -- but its aptness
is perhaps shown by the fact that I instantly understood what was meant, by
analogy with MWSD.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:20:09 -0700
From: Michael Siemon <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100301b9b05e62e2f9-AT-
[208.201.230.81]>
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paulstam>

><<I have been pondering the still-unanswered question of when/where the "M"
>came in.
>
>As far as I can remember, my first encounter with it was in a discussion
>with Susan, drawing a distinction between the social dancing most of us do
>and the historical reconstructions from manuals that she has been doing. For
>the sake of convenience, _as shorthand in the discussion at hand_, I thought
>the term was coined then. Does anyone remember that?>>
>
>I do, and that was also my first encounter with the term -- but its aptness
>is perhaps shown by the fact that I instantly understood what was meant, by
>analogy with MWSD.
>
>Peace,
>Paul

... About which there was recently a long, and occasionally acrimonious,
thread on rec.arts.folk-dancing :-).

There are two types of people in this world -- "splitters" and "lumpers"
(and mathematicians like me, who by definition can't count...). Each
type tends to go a bit off the rails when engaged in serious discussion
with the other. This phenomenon is _not_ unique to ECD, nor to dance,
nor to humanistic endeavors (it is a big issue of major turf-wars in
biology, for example) -- it is part of our allzumenschlich nature that
_both_ perspectives are important, but each tends to take a statement
of the other perspective as an attack on its own. It ain't necessarily
so...

Michael
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:28:56 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <006401c26066$9e62c900$8b69550c-AT-
paulstam>
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References: <EKEBJNKEEFDMIIJBIHDHCEFJCPAA.worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>

<<and what pray tell is MWSD?>>

Modern Western Square Dancing, sometimes called "Club Square Dancing".
Popular in the USA since about 1950; these are the folks who typically wear
cowboy outfits (men) and multiple petticoats (women), and take classes to
learn moves until they can do upwards of a hundred or two (experienced
dancers, anyway), with no need for a walkthrough. A culture that runs
parallel to contra and MECD in the USA, but there aren't many who do all
three. The style basically came from Lloyd Shaw and his spiritual
descendants.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:25:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:18:37 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020919.232926.-406757.20.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
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On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:40:44 -0500 Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
writes:
> <<those are EXACTLY the 'magic moments' I'm referring to! So, we have
> Sheepskin Hey in 'Picking up sticks'
> Poussettes in    'Orleans Baffled'
> 2nd lady's path  'Zephyrs and Flora' at the transition from one to 
> the
>                  next sequence
> Any other nominations anyone?>>

I vote for the moment in "Jacob Hall's Jig" when, after the 2nd woman is
turned, the 1st woman joins her and the 1st man to make a circle of 3.
I'm not explaining it very well, but when it's done by dancers who really
know they're stuff, it's fantastic.

Dawn Culbertson
Baltimore, MD



________________________________________________________________

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:12:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:10:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMPCPDODT09FNPPT-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Hi Cammy,
> those are EXACTLY the 'magic moments' I'm referring to! So, we have
> Sheepskin Hey in 'Picking up sticks'
> Poussettes in    'Orleans Baffled'
> 2nd lady's path  'Zephyrs and Flora' at the transition from one to the
>                  next sequence

Open ladies' chain in "Elizabeth."
Down the middle, flip, and continue backwards in "Miss de Jersey's", although
what the twos are doing at that time is pretty magical if they have a good
connection.

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:11:45 PST
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:11:42 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: initialisms
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <F69Uu2o8q3p9PcwDYWW00019570-AT-
hotmail.com>
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... when I first saw "MECD" I assumed it was something to do with "middle 
English" and wondered why it was being discussed. Like the massive "middle 
English dictionary" project that has been going on for decades at the Univ 
of Michigan, just a little ways down highway 94 from where I sit.

As for "MWSD" -- Middle Wallop Sloppy Dentures?

Steve C.


Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:22:51 PST
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:22:25 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Origins of "MWSD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF61C53B5C.39F630C6-ON85256C3A.004ED65A-AT-
biogen.com>
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and what pray tell is MWSD?
carolyn


Mild Weather Social Dance obviously - with hurricanes and winter in the
offing this distinction.....

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:26:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:26:38 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFCDBC9D69.C493C004-ON85256C3A.004F08BF-AT-
biogen.com>
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Michael said "...there are two types of people in this world -- "splitters"
and "lumpers"

I had always heard that there were two types of people in the world - those
you can be designate as one or the other of two types and those who can't.
Cammy



                                                                                                                                   
                      Michael Siemon                                                                                               
                      <mls-AT-
panix.com>                  To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Re: Origins of "MECD"                                             
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      20-Sep-2002 01:20 AM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   


...

Michael




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:56:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:57:59 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D8B3777.7308987D-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
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biogen.com>

Campbell Kaynor wrote:
> 
> Michael said "...there are two types of people in this world -- "splitters"
> and "lumpers"
> 
> I had always heard that there were two types of people in the world - those
> you can be designate as one or the other of two types and those who can't.

There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and
those who don't.

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:29:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:25:46 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle-AT-
earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3D8B844A.D0E9863-AT-
earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hotmail.com>

Margherita Davis wrote:

> (I tried scrolling through the archives, but haven't had any luck. The first
> time it came up in the subject listing was in early Jan 2002, by Charlene
> Charette, but it seems that the term was known before then.)

Unfortunately, searching subject lines won't give much of an indication
of when anything was first used on a list.  I was able to pulled up the
monthly archives and there's a header in March 1996 (at the list's
inception) that states:  "X-ListName: Discussion of modern and
historical English Country Dance <ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu>".  The
earliest use in a message I found was 11 Mar 1996:  "When I do 'modern'
English country dance...".  So, as far as this list goes, the term has
been around from the beginning.

I finally had time today to do a dive into the Rendance archives.  I
searched from the archive beginnings in 1993 through roughly 1996. 
Although the archives are publicly available, I don't feel comfortable
posting people's names without their permission so I've not included
attributions.  Some highlights from what I found.  Comments, although
trimmed, are verbatim with any comments from me in square brackets [].


Many terms were used to describe different styles of ECD:  "17th C",
"18th C", "early" (meaning pre-Playford); "pre-Restoration"; "colonial";
"later" (meaning early Playford); "late" (meaning 17th C).


1993 - the terms "modern contra" and "Cecil Sharp style ECD" appear


1994

"I don't think any modern English Country Dancers (as opposed to
historic dancers) ... "

"modern contra"

"... I love English Country dance in the Sharp style, and while I've
found it interesting to try baroque steps to ECD, I really enjoy the
modern style more."

"Sharp ECD"

"I have done EC both in the SCA and with modern english country dancers,
and in my experience ther isn't much overlap. the modern dancers very
seldom do dances from the first edition, the SCA seldom does any thing
else."  [The poster then points out other differences.]

"... but I think I can answer with how Nonesuch is done among modern
English country dancers, although I make no claim for the historical
validity of this interpretation."; [The poster later references to "ECD
people" as opposed to historical dancers.]

"Don't get me wrong, incidentally.  As I think I've said here before, I
love Sharp's esthetics, and I love modern ECD - but no claim should be
made about authenticity.  It's essentially a 20th Century invention
using materials scavenged from the preceding three centuries."


In Oct 1994 there was a bit of discussion about splitting ECD out of the
Rendance list:
"Doesn't seem useful to me. Our volume isn't so high that a split is
especially warranted, and there's a lot of useful cross-pollination
between the fields. I suppose if there's a pent-up demand for discussion
of modern country dance it might be warranted, but I haven't seen a lot
of sign of that yet."


This finally came to a head in 1996 when the ECD list traffic did
finally become high enough to warrant a separate list.  From Alan's Mar
1996 announcement of the new ECD list:
 
"This list is for discussion of any aspect of English Country Dance,
modern or historical, participatory or performance, whether it's
newly-composed dances, interpretation, step descriptions, announcements
of workshops or camps, reviews of books and recordings, or anything else
in this field."


1996

"As for comparing Sharp to Playford, some folks in the modern ECD
community are interested in this question, and books such as _The
Playford Ball_ contain facsimile editions for the dances. It can be very
interesting to compare them and note the differences."

"Remember that [The Playford Ball] is targeted at the modern ECD revival
community, and thus does not only reconstruct the oldest Playford
dances."

"I've been reading the list quietly for a week or two, and thought I'd
introduce myself.  My name is ... .  Mostly I'm an amateur
early-and-folk-music musician (not that I think they're the same thing,
but I do some of both) and a folk dancer (including international folk
dance performance and recreational modern ECD)." [The term "modern ECD"
wasn't used in the time he claims to have lurked; he either read it in
the archives (not very likely) or was familiar with the term from
another venue.]


1996 - Rendance discography

"Good for modern English country; limited SCA use because not much
period stuff, modern  sounding music."

"Choreography for these dances appeared in Playford (in the 7th edition
and later), Walsh, Bray, and Neal.  Companion books include instructions
for the dances, and arrangements of the music,  as well as some
additional information on dances of this period.  Well worth getting if
you are interested in later English country dances."


So it would appear my initial SWAG may be correct and the term came to
the ECD list with the dancers who migrated from the Rendance list.

--Charlene

-- 
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases
to be serious when they laugh. -- George Bernard Shaw
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:52:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:52:33 -0700
From: Laurie Buchanan <laurieb-AT-
otsys.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Suzanne's posts
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100301b9b1450d8e9f-AT-
[128.223.40.51]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <00A14332.A559B96C.14-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu>

Suzanne's messages are coming through on the digest as either of 
these configurations:

>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:41:29 -0400
>From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mr. Isaac
>Message-ID: <30244B70.23B89BD1.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
>
>Well, I'd respond that you have to take in any experience -- visual, 
>audio or virtual -- with your mind engaged.  If you look at...

or

>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:53:02 -0400
>From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
>Subject: Re: Alive, alive-o!
>Message-ID: <31462AE9.1001051F.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
>
>T1khICBXaGF0IGEgdGFuZ2xlZCB3ZWIgd2Ugd2VhdmUsIHdoZW4gd2UgdHJ5IHRv
>IHNheSBhbnl0aGluZyBpbiB3cml0aW5nLi4uLg0KDQpFdmVuIHRob3VnaCBJIG1h...

It's my belief that the problem lies somewhere between her AOL server 
and the SLAC server.  I could be totally wrong, but I think that the 
digest is the digest no matter what machine you use on the receiving 
end.  So, when Alan returns from the "wilds of Oregon", he might be 
able to do something about it at the SLAC end.  Thanks to Cammy for 
translating her posts for us.

Laurie Buchanan
Eugene, OR (Where we are enjoying a "Northwest of Normal" Eugene 
Celebration, featuring the Slug Queen this week.)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:29:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: metis-AT-
seki.mcs.csuhayward.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Source for "Take a Dance"
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200209202228.g8KMS4M08913-AT-
seki.mcs.csuhayward.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


Could someone please tell me the source(s), for the dance "Take a
Dance"?  

Thanks, 

                                    Tom
Tom Roby                                      Department of Math & CS
metis-AT-
seki.mcs.csuhayward.edu                 California State University
[Fax] 510-885-4314,4169                       25800 Carlos Bee Blvd.
[Off] 510-885-2691,3591                       Hayward, CA 945423092
                   http://seki.csuhayward.edu 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:29:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:29:22 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Suzanne's posts
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF7203EE70.B83FB3D4-ON85256C3A.007B2D0B-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


I have not received anything unintelligible from Suzanne (example 2 below)
so something is different about my receiving end. I didn't translate
anything but simply forwarded the Emails as they came to me which indicates
it also has something to do with the sending end as well since everyone
seemed able to read the stuff forwarded from my Mac.



                                                                                                                                   
                      Laurie Buchanan                                                                                              
                      <laurieb-AT-
otsys.com>              To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Suzanne's posts                                                   
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      20-Sep-2002 05:52 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




Suzanne's messages are coming through on the digest as either of
these configurations:

>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:41:29 -0400
>From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mr. Isaac
>Message-ID: <30244B70.23B89BD1.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
>
>Well, I'd respond that you have to take in any experience -- visual,
>audio or virtual -- with your mind engaged.  If you look at...

or

>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:53:02 -0400
>From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
>Subject: Re: Alive, alive-o!
>Message-ID: <31462AE9.1001051F.0078596C-AT-
aol.com>
>
>T1khICBXaGF0IGEgdGFuZ2xlZCB3ZWIgd2Ugd2VhdmUsIHdoZW4gd2UgdHJ5IHRv
>IHNheSBhbnl0aGluZyBpbiB3cml0aW5nLi4uLg0KDQpFdmVuIHRob3VnaCBJIG1h...

It's my belief that the problem lies somewhere between her AOL server
and the SLAC server.  I could be totally wrong, but I think that the
digest is the digest no matter what machine you use on the receiving
end.  So, when Alan returns from the "wilds of Oregon", he might be
able to do something about it at the SLAC end.  Thanks to Cammy for
translating her posts for us.

Laurie Buchanan
Eugene, OR (Where we are enjoying a "Northwest of Normal" Eugene
Celebration, featuring the Slug Queen this week.)





================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:34:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:26:16 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Maypole Baloney
To: allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020920.212955.-178473.5.franch-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:35:17 -0400 Allison M Thompson
<allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com> writes:
> Barbara wrote:
> On the other hand, from a wincing perusal of some Pagan websites, 
> it  appears that some modern Pagans celebrate Beltane (May 1) in a 
> fashion  similar to that suggested by your professor.  Perhaps this is
life
> imitating fancy?

I'm replying privately, as the ECD list is the ECD list not the MWR
(Modern Wiccan Rites) list (which I just made up), but I've often
wondered about these neo-Pagan rituals.  How continuous they are with
"historic" usage is an interesting question.  I think you're probably
right about life imitating fancy.   My bet is that a lot of this is newly
made up, which is, in my book, okay. From the little I know about their
rituals, I think they've come up with some expressive forms.  Too bad
they can't just go forward from there.  

Mike Franch
Baltimore, Md.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:48:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:45:44 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000801c2613a$83a94060$416a550c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <F31TM9wGmAf0MjkatwD0000018e-AT-
hotmail.com> <3D8B844A.D0E9863-AT-
earthlink.net>

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle-AT-
earthlink.net>

[good research snipped]

<<So it would appear my initial SWAG may be correct and the term came to
the ECD list with the dancers who migrated from the Rendance list.>>

Clearly the expressions "modern English Country Dance" and "modern ECD"
indeed seem to be fairly common within the past decade, as you've shown. But
I note that none of your citations capitalizes "modern" or uses the
abbreviation "MECD"; I think that's a good deal more recent, possibly within
the past year. The *concept* of "modern English Country Dance" (i.e., as
interpreted by Sharp and successors) has been established for a while; the
*naming* of it (denoted by a capital M) and the acronym are, I think, more
recent.

Does it matter? Maybe; naming something has magical powers in many cultures.
In ours, I think it signifies the crystalization of an idea.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:18:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:17:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020921091757.96871.qmail-AT-
web20007.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com> wrote:
> The moment just before the two ladies cast or dance up in Aily. 
> The precious moment is frequently completely eviscerated by either
> the second lady failing to return to her home place after the
> advance and retire, or by her failing to comprehend that she's
> supposed to follow the first lady into her new position.  Just
> trudging up the side really saps the entire figure of its shape, as
> well as of it's intimacy and flow.  Failing to make eye contact
with
> the first lady so that the two begin moving tout ensemble also
> destroys the whole situation.

First, I would like to thank Margherita for pointing out to me many
years ago that the figure eights and heys in Fandango can be done
without losing eye contact with your partner for but a few brief
instances when someone passes across your path. I'd always loved the
flow of those movements, but never found that much eye contact in
them before.

Since Emily has decided to complain about a magic moment that goes
awry, I'll put in my two cents, too:

A magic moment for me is the opening of St. Margaret's Hill, when the
ones cast to second place and turn 3/4, falling back at the end of
the turn to pick up the twos and threes as they continue falling
back. It seems that the last few years, every time someone has taught
the dance they have insisted that the twos and threes move forward
into the center of the set to form lines before the ones begin
falling back. Having the inactive couples move in destroys the magic
moment when the ones separate and become individuals for that brief
interval before they take hands with the people on either side of
them and sweep them backward in a line.

One of the reasons that I really like the opening part of this dance
is because it was in one of Reel Nutmeg's suites, following on the
heels of the ending of Parson's Farewell. Going from that mad
skipping around, I had only a moment in home position to gather
myself before transitioning into that slow cast. What a rush... to
force yourself to slow down while your heart is pounding. As the ones
finished their turn and backed out of the center of the set, the man
(me) was joined by the third couple entering the set from the wings.

Andy

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:08:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:06:56 +0100
From: Trev <trevuk-AT-
hotpop.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Source for "Take a Dance"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000c01c26156$e6736880$e54679d5-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <200209202228.g8KMS4M08913-AT-
seki.mcs.csuhayward.edu>



> Could someone please tell me the source(s), for the dance "Take a
> Dance"?
>
> Thanks, Tom


The version I use is from "Wright's Humours" - Nine Country Dances from
18th Century Printed Collections Selected and Edited by Kathryn and
David Wright.
In this booklet they say Take a Dance is from Thompson's "Compleat
Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances", Volume II.

Trev


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:39:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:36:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KMQY4DL6WK9FOF14-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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References: <F31TM9wGmAf0MjkatwD0000018e-AT-
hotmail.com>


Charlene gave some interesting results from the Rendance list (and I could
swear at least one of those quotes was from me).  

A search of the ECD archives - not available via the web, sorry - shows that
susan-AT-
generalist.org was the first to use the MECD acronym on 9/10/2001, just
over a year ago.  (This was in the context of discussing which way the 
poussettes go in "Cuckolds All A-Row.")

If you care, do a web-based archive search on "pousettes".  MECD was used in
the context of making the relevant distinction between common practice in 
Sharp-following ECD and what the manuals actually say.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:17:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:17:33 +0000
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <F129UIEAOeIiGXix4A200000013-AT-
hotmail.com>
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Thanks, Alan. This jibes with my memory (which, gratefully, isn't totally 
faulty).

At the time, I saw the coinage of this term as a convenient short-hand way 
of facilitating discussion, and not as a way of creating divisions amongst 
us. I still feel that way, although the suggestions of "C" for contemporary 
or "S" for social dancing may be more apt.

Margherita

----Original Message Follows----
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Origins of "MECD"
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:36:11 -0700 (PDT)


Charlene gave some interesting results from the Rendance list (and I could
swear at least one of those quotes was from me).

A search of the ECD archives - not available via the web, sorry - shows that
susan-AT-
generalist.org was the first to use the MECD acronym on 9/10/2001, 
just
over a year ago.  (This was in the context of discussing which way the
poussettes go in "Cuckolds All A-Row.")

If you care, do a web-based archive search on "pousettes".  MECD was used in
the context of making the relevant distinction between common practice in
Sharp-following ECD and what the manuals actually say.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  
650/926-3056
  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   
94025
===============================================================================




********************************************************
Margherita Modica Davis              NYC: (212) 724-1707
margheritad1-AT-
hotmail.com         Upstate: (518) 828-6181
mandgdavis-AT-
earthlink.net              mmodica1-AT-
yahoo.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~mandgdavis/
********************************************************


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:42:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:43:55 -0700
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Anyone in the Denver area?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D8E2B8B.D92F29B6-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <F129UIEAOeIiGXix4A200000013-AT-
hotmail.com>

If there are any readers in the vicinity of Denver, Colorado, could you get
in touch privately?  Thanks.

(My apologies for this non-*ECD-related use of the list.  Alan, I'm
prepared for the near-inevitable six dozen with the rope's end to be
administered by the ECD list bosun's mate.)

-- 
Jon Berger
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:16:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:18:13 -0700
From: Robin Cohen <rcohen-AT-
idiom.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020922151416.00ae8130-AT-
pop.idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ah yes, I have experienced that sublime feeling.

On the other hand, when the women have to fuss about which way their hands 
go (who has the "privilege" of palms down), it brings up one of my pet 
peeves...

Robin Cohen
Menlo Park, CA


>I vote for the moment in "Jacob Hall's Jig" when, after the 2nd woman is
>turned, the 1st woman joins her and the 1st man to make a circle of 3.
>I'm not explaining it very well, but when it's done by dancers who really
>know they're stuff, it's fantastic.
>
>Dawn Culbertson
>Baltimore, MD

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:46:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:43:46 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
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Message-ID: <200209221845_MC3-1-1208-F773-AT-
compuserve.com>
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Hi Robin -
long time no hear from one another...
But WHERE are those magic moments for you? Does any particular moment in a
specific dance come up? It's easy enough to come up with lots of pet
peeves, specific and non-, but why dwell on those?

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:20:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:23:59 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Early One Morning
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020922142106.00a08ea0-AT-
mail.oz.net>
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Hi Folks,

Our Mezzo wants to sing Early one Morning, but the 5 couple dance is a bit 
too challenging for our group.  I've heard that there are two other dances 
to this tune.  Anybody have a source?  Can you send me the directions or 
tell me where I can find directions for one of the other dances.

Thanks for your help

Victoria in Seattle



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:10:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:13:40 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Early One Morning
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF9B368C59.3FEC9C31-ON85256C3D.004DE308-AT-
risk.sungard.com>
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You may well want to use Scott Higgs' dance of this name, published in his
pamphlet of the same name...
Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."




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Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:35:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:35:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Terence Gaffney <gaff-AT-
neu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.03.10209231134070.13276-100000-AT-
research.neu.edu>
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Hanny's question is difficult, because where do you stop?  As Gary points
out, the magic is also related to your partner, the band, the ensemble,
sometimes to a new perspective on an old dance.

With this in mind some nominations:

1) The leads for the actives through the top and bottom of the set on St.
Margaret's Hill.

2) The heys from the active position in "Song of the Harpist".

3) The cross for the first corners in "Michael and All Angels".

4) On nights when our Wednesday ensemble of dancers are hot , all of
"Hudson Barn" particularly the stars and leads, and the active role in
"From Aberdeen".

5) Doing "Whirligig" with The Round in Cambridge.

6) Particular partners have transfigured "Quite Carried Away", "The Old
Mill", "Trip to Kilburn", "Rafe's Waltz" , "Astoria Lass" and "The
Chestnut". Thanks to all of you!
( A dance is in part a vehicle of communication--these dances have
tremendous carrying capacity. Just because, whether the current flows or
not , depends on the couple is no reason to exclude them!)

7)  I forget which leader did this for me, but someone gave me a new
perspective on "Mr. Issacs' Maggot"--She suggested trying to focus as much
of your attention on your partner as possible when you're active, so that
the turns with corners become only a momentary eclipse of your partner.
That was magical.

best,
 Terry




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:03:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:02:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200209231602.g8NG2vk00928-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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   This thread has caused me to think (I'm not sure if that's a good thing
or not) and I've realized that lately I've been spending so much time
leading dances that I haven't really taken the time to relax and just
enjoy dancing.  Half the time when I am dancing I'm also leading the
dance so my attention is focused on the other dancers rather than on
what I'm doing.  I guess I'll have to try to do something about this.

   A couple of nice moments in dances that come to my mind are

- In Prince William, when the 1's turn in the middle and then flip around
to face one side (and then the other) and lead out at the sides.

- In Fair Quaker of Deal in the B part when corners come into the middle
back to back and form an inside out ring, set and circle left half way.
It always reminds me of a washing machine agitator.

- In Dublin Bay when the lines are going down the hall and everyone twirls
around and continues down the hall backwards.

- The simultaneous gates and gypsies in The Bishop

- The continuous movement in the A part of Geud Man of Ballangigh

- The B part of Mad Robin, maintaining eye contact with your partner

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:46:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:16:08 -0400
From: "Martin E. Mulligan" <mulligan-AT-
morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v0401170ab9b5150e0280-AT-
[134.153.108.151]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'd like to ask the list for clarification of the directions to Apley House.

After the right hands across half way, the instructions (in the Playford
Ball) say to face partner, turn single, and then into the casting movement.
Do all four turn single to the right?   Should it be a turn single to right
on women's side, turn single to left on men's side?  Or is it a cloverleaf
turn single?

Thanks for your help.

Martin





=========================================================================
Martin E. Mulligan
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
mulligan-AT-
morgan.ucs.mun.ca
=========================================================================
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:51:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:50:54 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b9b50477b361-AT-
[140.186.55.47]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <v0401170ab9b5150e0280-AT-
[134.153.108.151]>

At 3:16 PM -0400 9/23/02, Martin E. Mulligan wrote:
>I'd like to ask the list for clarification of the directions to Apley House.
>
>After the right hands across half way, the instructions (in the Playford
>Ball) say to face partner, turn single, and then into the casting movement.
>Do all four turn single to the right?   Should it be a turn single to right
>on women's side, turn single to left on men's side?  Or is it a cloverleaf
>turn single?

The community decides.  In the Playford Ball, for sure, it means that 
everyone ts clockwise whether it's totally clumsy or not.

But time and a few smart alecks change things..........
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:17:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:25:47 -0700
From: Mary Devlin <mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B9B4AAA8.4161%mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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For me all of Elizabeth is a magic moment as long as my partner and I are in
sync with each other (and our neighbors).  I love the continuous movement
for the 1's, and the drama of not-quite-continuous movement for the 2's.
I've a very fond memory of one of my best-ever dance experiences -- dancing
Elizabeth with Mary K Friday.  Dancing with her elevanted a great dance to a
transporting experience.

Mary 

Mary Devlin
mary-AT-
mdevlin.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:23:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:20:43 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020923131905.00a90850-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
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References: <v0401170ab9b5150e0280-AT-
[134.153.108.151]>

Dancers are turning by the right hand,
the logical turn single for all is to the left in the direction of travel.

followed by the 2nd couple (in first place) continuing the turn to cast
the 1st couple (in second place) meet, lead up and cast to the end of the 
line for the advance.

mm



my 2cents


At 01:50 PM 9/23/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 3:16 PM -0400 9/23/02, Martin E. Mulligan wrote:
>>I'd like to ask the list for clarification of the directions to Apley House.
>>
>>After the right hands across half way, the instructions (in the Playford
>>Ball) say to face partner, turn single, and then into the casting movement.
>>Do all four turn single to the right?   Should it be a turn single to right
>>on women's side, turn single to left on men's side?  Or is it a cloverleaf
>>turn single?
>
>The community decides.  In the Playford Ball, for sure, it means that 
>everyone ts clockwise whether it's totally clumsy or not.
>
>But time and a few smart alecks change things..........
>--
>Emily L. Ferguson
>elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
>New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
>Beetle cats on the web at:
>http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
>http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook

Please send me an email if you wish to be removed from this mail 
notification list
         <mailto:%20%22Mike%20-%20remove%20move%20from%20MECD%22%3Cmgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net%3E>"Mike 
- remove me from MECD"<mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>

Madison Wisconsin English Country Dancing

The Madison (Wisconsin) English Country Dance Society meets
on the first and third Mondays of the month from 7:30-9:30 PM.

Dancing
         October through May at the Wilmar Center,
                 <http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/Wilmarmap.gif>953 
Jenifer St., Madison, Wisconsin
         June through September in front of Memorial Library,
                 <http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/Memorial/images/street.gif>University 
of Wisconsin-Madison
For more information, contact
         Mike (mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net),
         Jean (608-231-1040) or
         Don (608-238-9951)
Website
images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/home.htm
no images
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/mecds/hometext.htm

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:00:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:56:11 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200209231458_MC3-1-1226-D1F4-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hmmmmm,
I disagree with the suggestion of doing the turn single to left. Turning
single to the RIGHT pulls the group together before the 'explosion' away
from the set and reassembling for the lead up.
Interesting, that turning single to the left supposedly sets up the second
couple 'continuing the turn to cast...'. Yeah, for the MAN it would do
it...

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:00:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:59:46 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3D8F649E.595A3C2C-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <B9B4AAA8.4161%mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>



Mary Devlin wrote:
> 
> For me all of Elizabeth is a magic moment as long as my partner and I are in
> sync with each other (and our neighbors). 

Colin Hume called "Elizabeth" last Friday night at the Scout House in
Concord, MA.  The entire hall was in sync & in time.  The two sets
filled the width of the hall with wide loops.

It was one of those dances you don't want to end.  We let out a
collective sigh when it did.  Truly a magical moment for the entire
hall, followed by an incredible weekend in Amherst/Greenfield with
Philippe Callens and Brad Foster.

--Deb, still replaying all of the great dances of the weekend.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:12:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:11:41 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF74AFB86F.E531697F-ON85256C3D.006E16CF-AT-
biogen.com>
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I like to have everyone do the "logical thing"- turn single starting up the
set. It brings the 2s without falter into a cast and the 1s leading up to
cast.
With right hands joined, the dancers draw together, drop hands and catch
their partner's eye as they turn up and out (We. right, Me. left). Regain
eye contact - momentarily for the 2s and exquisitely longer for the 1s -
before casts.
My 2p.
CK


                                                                                                                                   
                      Mike Mudrey                                                                                                  
                      <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>              To:       ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Re: Apley House                                                   
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      23-Sep-2002 02:20 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




Dancers are turning by the right hand,
the logical turn single for all is to the left in the direction of travel.

followed by the 2nd couple (in first place) continuing the turn to cast
the 1st couple (in second place) meet, lead up and cast to the end of the
line for the advance.

mm



my 2cents

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:19:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:19:19 +0000
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: How to Be Happy
To: ECD-AT-
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There's an article on today's editorial page of the Wall Street Journal,  
written by Digby Anderson, entitled "How to Be Happy". In it, the author 
interviewed Michael Argyle, an Oxford-based psychologist who for the last 20 
years has been interviewing people on what makes them happy. The article is 
not available online except to subscribers, so I'll just excerpt a piece of 
it to whet your appetite:

<snip>He favored the source of happiness which is within our power to do 
something about. This is a leisure or charitable pursuit which we devote 
ourselves to fairly thoroughly, such as golf or the Rotary Club. The best 
source of happiness among these, he finds consistently, is country dancing: 
"Workers of the world, oppressed and damned of the earth, join your 
partners, here we go."
<snip>

Margherita Davis



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:24:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic moments
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In a message dated 9/23/02 3:02:27 PM, debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu writes:

<< followed by an incredible weekend in Amherst/Greenfield with
Philippe Callens and Brad Foster.

--Deb, still replaying all of the great dances of the weekend. >>

Deb, do you remember the name of the dance we did in Greenfield Sunday which 
starts with circles of 3? The transition from the end of the dance sequence 
to where the first couple flows down to join either the 2nd woman or man is 
another -- recent --  mm. (esp if the six hands meet exactly on the beat.)

Judy Grunberg
================================================================================
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From: JBGrun-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
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In "The Old Mill" when the first woman returns to the top of the set & 
reaches behind her, hopefully without looking back, to find her partner's 
hand ready to turn her. It' s all about trust & anticipation. 

Judy Grunberg
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:00:10 -0400
From: eba-AT-
umich.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
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--On Monday, September 23, 2002 4:11 PM -0400 Campbell Kaynor 
<Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com> wrote:

>
> I like to have everyone do the "logical thing"- turn single starting up
> the set. It brings the 2s without falter into a cast and the 1s leading
> up to cast.

Since Cammy proposes to do the "logical thing," it seems appropriate to 
offer some thoughts about that.  There are several different logical 
arguments for doing one or another of the offered solutions, and perhaps 
deciding what you want to do is clarified by examining them with the 
expectation, or at least hope, that it will provide an extended basis for 
the choice.

One reason that there are several ideas for what to do with this turn 
single is that the symmetry of the dance figures changes somewhere in their 
vicinity -- the right-hand star has clockwise rotational symmetry, while 
the lead-and-cast figure has mirror symmetry across the set (i.e. the 
"mirror" runs up and down in the center).  The different proposals for the 
turn single give different choices when and how to make this change:  if 
everyone turns single right, the rotational symmetry is preserved; it might 
be argued that the angular momentum possessed by the dancers in the star is 
thus preserved in the turn single, since the direction of rotation is the 
same.  In the turn single upwards, the mirror symmetry of the lead-and-cast 
is anticipated, preparing for that transition, and making the choice on the 
basis of the transition from the turn-single to the lead-and-cast.  In the 
cloverleaf turn single, a symmetry different from either the preceeding or 
the following figure is employed -- it has mirror symmetry both up and down 
and across -- and so it doesn't tie in to the symmetry of either figure, 
but it does give symmetry between men and women with the variety of 
turns-single in both directions.

In my own thinking about this dance, symmetry considerations are important 
since I particularly enjoy the way symmetry plays various roles in dances; 
the places where symmetry changes, or where figures are highly asymmetric, 
are often very distinctive and memorable parts of the dance (consider e.g. 
the opening figures of "The Merry Salopians," better known by the name of 
it's tune, "The Old Mill").  In this case, on the basis of connecting the 
dance with the music, I find that I like to consider that the turn single 
is the end of the dance phrase that starts with the right-hand star, and 
the musical phrasing corresponds to that.  Since the musical phrasing is 
quite strong, I like to fit the places where the symmetry of the dance 
figure changes to the places where the music changes, too.

That way (if I remember correctly), the star & turn single fits to B1, the 
lead & cast into lines in B2, pointing to the very dramatic moment of lines 
up a double with C1 etc.

Eric Arnold



>
>
>
>                        Mike Mudrey
>                        <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>              To:
> ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Sent by:                         cc:
>                        owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Re:
> Apley House
> TANFORD.EDU
>
>
>                        23-Sep-2002 02:20 PM
>                        Please respond to ECD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dancers are turning by the right hand,
> the logical turn single for all is to the left in the direction of travel.
>
> followed by the 2nd couple (in first place) continuing the turn to cast
> the 1st couple (in second place) meet, lead up and cast to the end of the
> line for the advance.
>
> mm
>
>
>
> my 2cents


================================================================================
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From: eba-AT-
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playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: oops!
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--On Monday, September 23, 2002 5:00 PM -0400 eba-AT-
UMICH.EDU wrote:

> by the name of it's tune, "The Old Mill").  In this case, on the

I meant "its,", not "it's."   Got to watch those fingers more carefully... 
(;-)

Eric
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:49:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Terence Gaffney wrote:

> 5) Doing "Whirligig" with The Round in Cambridge.

i'll second that!

susie lorand
princeton, nj

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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:59:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 JBGrun-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> Deb, do you remember the name of the dance we did in Greenfield Sunday which
> starts with circles of 3? The transition from the end of the dance sequence
> to where the first couple flows down to join either the 2nd woman or man is
> another -- recent --  mm. (esp if the six hands meet exactly on the beat.)

1st couple joins the 2nd man.  i forget the name of the dance, but i think
it was interpreted by andrew shaw, and i'm pretty sure we did it in the
2nd half.  the tune was completely new to me.

susie lorand
princeton, nj

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:10:24 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyecd1-AT-
primate.mailshell.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Thinking about a new Playford Ball-type event in Santa Barbara
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Here in Santa Barbara we are blessed with a fantastic dance facility, 
the Carrillo Ballroom and its large sprung dance floor.

Some of us have become excited of late, thinking about having a 
Playford Ball-type event there.

But there are problems:  every Saturday is taken (by the Ballroom 
dancers) in perpetuity except for fifth Saturdays. That means we 
could not have the same month every year. For example, for 2003 the 
fifth Saturdays are March (date of Bay Area Playford Ball), May (one 
week after our own Sprung Floor Dance Festival), August (Labor Day 
weekend), and November (Thanksgiving weekend).

The Sunday of a Monday holiday weekend would be okay, I suppose, 
except we have a contra dance every Sunday, except for two Sundays in 
the summer, when the contra dance is at an outdoor facility. And 
those are not Monday-holidays Sundays.

A four-hour Sunday dance would have to start at 1:30.

A four-hour Saturday dance could possibly start a little later, like 2:00.

So it looks like a Saturday or Sunday afternoon dance. I'm told that 
an afternoon dance is not a "Ball" and that the women would not wear 
the same elaborate costumes.  It would have to be a "Tea Dance." 
Could it be a Tea Ball? Or a Tea Dance Ball? A Ball in the Afternoon? 
Ah, how about "A Playford Afternoon" or "A Playford Afternoon Ball"?

When, if any, would be a good time of year? We don't want to be close 
in time to the other Playford Balls: Bay Area Playford in March, 
their Fall Ball in October, L.A.'s Ball in September, Portland in 
November(?) or to the Jane Austen Evening in L.A. Other conflicts to 
avoid: certain Bay Area or L.A. Regency special events, Fiddling Frog 
Festival (late February/early March), Harvest Moon (September), Monte 
Toyon (March and October), Alta Sierra (Labor Day), Sierra Swing, 
BACDS Family Week, Mendocino English Week, perhaps even English and 
English/American Weeks at Pinewoods and Buffalo Gap. Perhaps all of 
summer should be written off. For an afternoon dance, perhaps winter 
would be best.

Or perhaps the answer is that there are enough Playford Balls in 
California each year. If the Carrillo Ballroom didn't exist, I might 
agree.

So when should we have our Ball or Tea Dance? And what shall we wear?
-- 
Gary
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:51:04 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Thinking about a new Playford Ball-type event in Santa Barbara
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>Gary asked,


>When, if any, would be a good time of year? We don't want to be close in 
>time to the other Playford Balls:

Very thoughtful.   THe Seattle Ball (Martin Luther King Weekend) , the 
Cascadia English Dance weekend (first weekend in May-- this year Philippe 
Callens guest teacher) and the and the Portland Ball (usually the second 
weekend in Nov but this year the first weekend in Nov and) draw many Bay 
Area dancers and a few southern California dancers.  We would really miss 
our California friends if you conflicted with any of our events!  And we 
wouldn't be able to come to your event to drool over your gorgeous floor 
and dance with you.   How about the presidents day weekend in February to 
dispell the gloom of winter?

Victoria in Seattle






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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:30:30 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
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"Susan R. Lorand" wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 JBGrun-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> > Deb, do you remember the name of the dance we did in Greenfield Sunday which
> > starts with circles of 3? The transition from the end of the dance sequence
> > to where the first couple flows down to join either the 2nd woman or man is
> > another -- recent --  mm. (esp if the six hands meet exactly on the beat.)
> 
> 1st couple joins the 2nd man.  i forget the name of the dance, but i think
> it was interpreted by andrew shaw, and i'm pretty sure we did it in the
> 2nd half.  the tune was completely new to me.
> 
> susie lorand

per Graham (since I didn't remember.  In fact, I don't think I heard the
name):  
"Fop's Fancy." Kynaston dance, 1710 or thereabouts; reconstruction in
Shaw's new book, *The She-Favorite*.

--Deb
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:49:11 -0700
From: Kalia Kliban <kalia-AT-
sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Anyone in the Denver area?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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Jon Berger wrote:
> 
> If there are any readers in the vicinity of Denver, Colorado, could you get
> in touch privately?  Thanks.
> 
> (My apologies for this non-*ECD-related use of the list.  Alan, I'm
> prepared for the near-inevitable six dozen with the rope's end to be
> administered by the ECD list bosun's mate.)

Shall I?  I'm right here...

K

-- 
Kalia Kliban
kalia-AT-
sbcglobal.net  <--- Note new email address!

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:24:37 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: Magic moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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References: <B9B4AAA8.4161%mary-AT-
mdevlin.com> <3D8F649E.595A3C2C-AT-
wi.mit.edu>

We danced Elizabeth tonight too, and again it was magical...we had new
dancers, and they were caught up in it. I was playing under a handicap, with
a bandage on my left hand (tape gun -- oops), but somehow that tune sailed
out of the instruments and into the air. Colin, if you're on line, thank you
twice, for the dance and the melody.

Peace,
Paul (typing with one hand)

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:31:42 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: How to Be Happy
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <002201c26383$48e30ba0$9e79550c-AT-
paulstam>
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<<There's an article on today's editorial page of the Wall Street Journal,
written by Digby Anderson, entitled "How to Be Happy". In it, the author
interviewed Michael Argyle, an Oxford-based psychologist who for the last 20
years has been interviewing people on what makes them happy. >>

I'm sure not by coincidence, there was a guest on NPR's "Talk of the Nation"
this afternoon talking about that, possibly Argyle himself (I only caught
about three minutes worth, not including any guest identifications). You
could hear it by going to www.npr.org and going to TOTN's page; it should be
archived there. Don't know if he talked about dancing, though.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:02:01 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
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Subject: Re: Thinking about a new Playford Ball-type event in Santa Barbara
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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----- Original Message -----
From: Gary D. Shapiro <garyecd1-AT-
primate.mailshell.com>

<<So when should we have our Ball or Tea Dance? >>

We've become the victims of our own successes -- there are enough events
that it's hard to schedule without conflicts. Although that presents
annoyances, I call it very good news.

<<And what shall we wear?>>

If it's a Tea Dance, obviously you should wear Tea Shirts.

Peace,
Paul

(or should that be "Pekoe"?)

================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andy Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Robin Cohen <rcohen-AT-
idiom.com> wrote:
> Ah yes, I have experienced that sublime feeling.
> 
> On the other hand, when the women have to fuss about which way
> their hands go (who has the "privilege" of palms down), it brings
> up one of my pet peeves...
>
> Dawn Culbertson wrote:
> > I vote for the moment in "Jacob Hall's Jig" when, after the 2nd
> > woman is turned, the 1st woman joins her and the 1st man to make
> > a circle of 3.

The joining person should take the others hands as they are offered.
That makes for the least amount of fuss.

Andy

__________________________________________________
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New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:59:33 -0400
From: Campbell Kaynor <Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Thinking about a new Playford Ball-type event in Santa Barbara
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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As for 5th Saturdays- I once had a very successful contra series on 5th
Sat.s and an even more successful dance on "Last Fridays" (which through
organizers off but the dancers had less confusion than when I have run
events on the 4th Friday).

I think an afternoon "ball" is OK. Another option is to call it a "Playford
Party" as I do with my annual event (to distinguish it from the surrounding
"Balls" and yet to retain the idea of it being a special event).
Cammy

================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:03:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Jonathan Sivier wrote:

>    This thread has caused me to think (I'm not sure if that's a good thing
> or not) and I've realized that lately I've been spending so much time
> leading dances that I haven't really taken the time to relax and just
> enjoy dancing.  Half the time when I am dancing I'm also leading the
> dance so my attention is focused on the other dancers rather than on
> what I'm doing.  I guess I'll have to try to do something about this.

Why?  My magic moments occur when dancers who are not my partner or the
one person I'm dancing with at the time imclude me in their dancing.  for
example, in the reels across in Fandango, when the dancer mirroring my
movements recognizes that we are danincg together and that there arre four
other dancers in the figure.

As you can guess, I'm bothered by these magic moments examples: doesn't
anyone get exhilerated when they are able to dance with the whole set?
all the sets on the floor?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:04:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Benjamin Stein <ecdscd-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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When it com es to Mr Issac I find the dance fully
satisfying when the active person (be it man or woman)
takes all the music to get back to place, even though the
person he is turning has a longer route to go-and when he
or she maintains eye contact as long as possible. It is not
only possible, but desireable to phrase the steps so as to
use all the music in returning to place, even though it is
a short distance.

Ben stein
Burlington, Vt. USA
ecdscd-AT-
yahoo.com

> > 
> 



> 
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Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:29:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:29:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Martin E. Mulligan wrote:

> I'd like to ask the list for clarification of the directions to Apley House.
>
> After the right hands across half way, the instructions (in the Playford
> Ball) say to face partner, turn single, and then into the casting movement.
> Do all four turn single to the right?   Should it be a turn single to right
> on women's side, turn single to left on men's side?  Or is it a cloverleaf
> turn single?

Hi, Martin,

First rule:  English isn't Scottish:  there is no one correct way to do
any movement.  English is a series of choices to be made each time one
dances the dance and each time one repeats the sequence in a dance.  Thus,
if a figure "should" done with skip or skip change and any of the dancers
in your little group has physical limitations, it's polite to calm the
figure down for that person (for that round).  A sense of community and a
sensitivity to the other dancers are what matters.

For Apley House, it certainly does feel "right" turn single away from each
other and then to cast away from each other. But if the leader insists
that's the only way to do it, that leader will find some dancers prone to
dizziness will sit out the dance.  How much better to offer the option of
turning the other way once in a while.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)



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Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:31:30 PST
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:29:09 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Priscilla wrote:

English isn't Scottish:  there is no one correct way to do
any movement. 

Poor Cecil must be spinning (clockwise) in his grave.  What an
interesting observation and one which shows how English dance in America
(perhaps to be termed AMECD--with regional variations such as NEAMECD or
SAMECD--in order to distinguish these interpretations or styles from how
it's performed in the Olde Country, known as EMECD, or, if one wants to
be PC and include the rest of the Commonwealth, GBMECD) has changed since
Sharp's disciple May Gadd was alive and there was, indeed, only one
correct way to turn in Apley House.

Allison Thompson

P.S.  Everyone to the right, as I recall.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:31:32 PST
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:29:09 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
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CC: ECD-AT-
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Priscilla wrote:

English isn't Scottish:  there is no one correct way to do
any movement. 

Poor Cecil must be spinning (clockwise) in his grave.  What an
interesting observation and one which shows how English dance in America
(perhaps to be termed AMECD--with regional variations such as NEAMECD or
SAMECD--in order to distinguish these interpretations or styles from how
it's performed in the Olde Country, known as EMECD, or, if one wants to
be PC and include the rest of the Commonwealth, GBMECD) has changed since
Sharp's disciple May Gadd was alive and there was, indeed, only one
correct way to turn in Apley House.

Allison Thompson

P.S.  Everyone to the right, as I recall.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:52:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:52:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Thinking about a new Playford Ball-type event in Santa Barbara
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Paul Stamler writes:
> 
> <<So when should we have our Ball or Tea Dance? >>
> 
> We've become the victims of our own successes -- there are enough events
> that it's hard to schedule without conflicts. Although that presents
> annoyances, I call it very good news.

   While this may indeed be true in this case, I think that it sometimes
happens that venues increase faster than dancers in which case it is
actually bad news.  We have noticed this somewhat here in the midwest.
The number of dance events has increased noticeably over the years, but
the number of dancers has not kept up, so attendance at some events has
gone down, since there are so many conflicting events for people to choose
from.  Our local contra dance group has a special dance on October 5 at
a great old dance hall in a small town in central Illinois.  In the past
it was the only thing going on that evening for quite a long radius and
so we drew people from several states.  Lately however more groups are
holding their own dances on the same evening so attendance has dropped.

   Here in Champaign-Urbana I've noticed this happening in the arts
in general (which does effect our local dance groups).  Several new
venues for live music and theatre have opened up in the past couple of
years.  This is great as far as it goes, however these additional
venues are drawing from the same audience pool as all the others.
There has been quite a bit of effort and money put into starting new
clubs and theatres, but very little put into bringing in additional
audience members.  So attendance at existing theatres, etc. has gone
down.  Our dance groups have seen this as well.  There are many more
opportunities for people interested in music, dance and theatre, so
more of our dancers choose alternate activities rather than coming
to the dances.  Not the same ones each time, but statistically it
results in lower attendance over time.

   I think the answer is that if you are going to start a new event or
venue you need to put as much time, effort and money into developing
new audience members (rather than just pulling some away from the
existing pool) as you do in developing the new event.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:57:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:56:40 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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At 10:29 AM -0400 9/24/02, Allison M Thompson wrote:
>Priscilla wrote:
>
>English isn't Scottish:  there is no one correct way to do
>any movement.
>
>Poor Cecil must be spinning (clockwise) in his grave.

<snip>

>has changed since
>Sharp's disciple May Gadd was alive and there was, indeed, only one
>correct way to turn in Apley House.

What a wonderful example of how this dancing has become a living, 
contemporary organism!

But the real question to me has been for a long time: where does the 
slippery slope begin and how do we broach the edge without going 
over?  Is it possible to abandon skipping in favor of the skip 
change, do cloverleaf turn singles or logical turn singles in Apple 
House, call a "hands across" a "star" and eventually a "back-to-back" 
a "do-si-do", abandon gender roles in the calls and still avoid 
morphing into something less differentiated in style and content from 
the other sorts of set dancing that attract so many possible 
participants?

Sure, I agree, the turn single clockwise makes not one shred of sense 
physically or visually in Apple House..  It's unbelievably 
inconvenient to do for 3/4th of the positions at that point in the 
dance.  But is there a point at which these adaptations lead to 
something other than what many of us think as distinctive to the 
dancing we love?

Already the set dances are suffering from not being inclusive where I 
dance.  Helene's rule of alternation has been attacked on many sides 
such that one can now dance there and do two or three longways before 
and after each set dance.  This is what happened to contra dancing 
and we're the vastly poorer for it. Does anyone improvise the breaks 
in squares still except Tony Parkes and Dan Pearl?  How many contra 
dancers have never done Chorus Jig now, being as how it's 
inconvenient and leaves people out.

As a discussion list mostly populated by people who are in a position 
to consider the wider perspective, I think we need to talk about this 
big picture as well as the details we enjoy attending to here.
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook

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Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:04:23 PST
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:51:48 -0400
From: Marge Cramton <marge-AT-
logiclink.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Apley House
To: "'ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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I have a more basic question: do you do Apley House as a spritely dance, or
as an elegant (slower) dance? At Pinewoods A&E this summer, the very slow
music made us try to do it elegantly. I was put off because at home we do it
as a lively dance and the slow version changed the character of the dance
and seemed quite flat to me. Maybe lively is just our habit. But it made me
wonder: does this group think a slow Apley House is the standard, or is it a
regional variation, an experiment, or an oddity? I didn't get a chance to
ask anyone while I was there, but this discussion made me think of it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Allison M Thompson [mailto:allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:29 AM
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Cc: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Apley House


Priscilla wrote:

English isn't Scottish:  there is no one correct way to do
any movement. 

Poor Cecil must be spinning (clockwise) in his grave.  What an
interesting observation and one which shows how English dance in America
(perhaps to be termed AMECD--with regional variations such as NEAMECD or
SAMECD--in order to distinguish these interpretations or styles from how
it's performed in the Olde Country, known as EMECD, or, if one wants to
be PC and include the rest of the Commonwealth, GBMECD) has changed since
Sharp's disciple May Gadd was alive and there was, indeed, only one
correct way to turn in Apley House.

Allison Thompson

P.S.  Everyone to the right, as I recall.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:09:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:09:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Magic Moments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Priscilla M. Burrage writes:
> 
> On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Jonathan Sivier wrote:
> 
> >    This thread has caused me to think (I'm not sure if that's a good thing
> > or not) and I've realized that lately I've been spending so much time
> > leading dances that I haven't really taken the time to relax and just
> > enjoy dancing.  Half the time when I am dancing I'm also leading the
> > dance so my attention is focused on the other dancers rather than on
> > what I'm doing.  I guess I'll have to try to do something about this.
> 
> Why?  My magic moments occur when dancers who are not my partner or the
> one person I'm dancing with at the time imclude me in their dancing.  for
> example, in the reels across in Fandango, when the dancer mirroring my
> movements recognizes that we are danincg together and that there arre four
> other dancers in the figure.
> 
> As you can guess, I'm bothered by these magic moments examples: doesn't
> anyone get exhilerated when they are able to dance with the whole set?
> all the sets on the floor?

   I guess I misstated my message and examples.  What I meant was that
lately (the past few years) when I'm dancing I am often also the dance
leader so I'm thinking about things other than enjoying the dance.  I'm
concentrating on (among other things): Is the tempo too fast or too slow?
Do I need to signal the band?  How many more times should I let the dance
run?  When can I slip out of the dance to run up to the band and signal them
that the next time is the last time through?  Are the other sets doing OK?
Can I stop calling?  When not calling are other dancers in my set or
other sets having trouble?  Do I need to come in calling again?  Are there
any little tips I can announce to help with the dancers style and/or
enjoyment of the dance?  Do the dancers look like they are getting tired?
Do the band look like they are getting tired?  Should I end the dance now
and try to squeeze one more in before the break or should I let it go a bit
longer and take an early break?  Etc., etc., etc. ...

   Also, while I didn't explicity state it, several of my examples are
"magic moments" in my opinion because the whole room is doing the same
thing.  One example I gave was the point in Dublin Bay where everyone
turns around at the same time (here locally we also clap twice with the
music as we turn) and then continue to fall back down the hall.  One reason
this is special is that the whole room is turning (and clapping) at the
same time.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:11:23 PST
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:59:45 +0100
From: Trev <trevuk-AT-
hotpop.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Thinking about a new Playford Ball-type event in Santa Barbara
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <004c01c263dc$b6726360$594579d5-AT-
trevormo>
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References: <p05111a02b9b52d061878-AT-
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If you want/expect people to dress up, how about a
"Costumed Playford Event"?

Trev

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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:11:26 +0100
From: Trev <trevuk-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Apley House
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <004d01c263dc$b74c96c0$594579d5-AT-
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> Priscilla wrote:
>
> English isn't Scottish:  there is no one correct way to do
> any movement.
>
Exactly!!

I get some Scottish dancers to my monthly English workshops, and they
have great difficulty in understanding that they may dance an English
dance differently each time they dance it.  After years of dancing
Scottish in a "robotic" way, it takes them ages to get the feel of
English dancing.  Whichever country you are in, whoever you are dancing
with, and whatever the band, Scottish is made to be danced the same -
hence the teachers examinations by the RSCDS, and that RSCDS classes
should only have qualified teachers?!  But I do find Scottish dancers
are a lot better at timing English figures, and do not get back too soon
like many of the English dancers!
(This is not a dig at Scottish dancing - which I participate in, and
have done for over 30 years, and enjoy - but a difference.)

Trev

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Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:50:35 PST
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:50:28 -0400
From: Maryn McKenna <mmckenna-AT-
mindspring.com>
Reply-