Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:11:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:11:02 -0400 From: Joyce Crouch Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Across the Atlantic 2002, Sept 21-22 To: ECD List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear ECD List Friends, A few months ago I sent an early alert about the 2nd (annual? we don't know, but it sure was a success last year) "Across the Atlantic" English country dance weekend in the Amherst, MA area, featuring the superb teaching of Philippe Callens and Brad Foster, plus gorgeous music and beautiful New England dance halls with excellent wood floors for your dancing pleasure. We've been getting inquiries and advance registrations from people (in CA, NC, NY, PA, & even MA!) who've come across the flyer or called for information. It seems only fair to let the rest of you know the nitty-gritty. :) So (trumpet fanfare...!!!), here are the details about the cool, fall-weather, no-mosquito, September 2002 version of "Across the Atlantic!" Contact Info and information on hospitality, Advance Registration Discount, and Directions to the halls are toward the end of this msg. We look forward to seeing some of you there! Joyce Crouch, Email Publicity Chair Amherst MA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Across the Atlantic 2002 September 21-22, 2002 Celebrate autumn with a special weekend of English Country Dancing in scenic Amherst and Greenfield, MA, to be led by the internationally renowned Philippe Callens of Belgium and Brad Foster of the United States Join us for *any or all three* events! [Register for all 3 events by Sept. 14 and save $5. See below for details] **************************************************************************** Event # 1 -- Saturday afternoon -- A Workshop of Dances Composed and Reconstructed by Philippe Callens Called by Philippe Callens Music by Mary Lea, violin, & Karen Axelrod, piano September 21 -- 2:00-5:00 PM -- Munson Library -- Amherst, MA Admission: $10.00 at the door -- Open to all __________________________________ Event #2 -- Saturday evening -- The Pleasures of the Town English Country Dance Called by Brad Foster Music by Mary Lea, violin; Chris Rua, oboe & recorders; Joyce Crouch, piano September 21 -- 8:00-11:00 PM -- Munson Library -- Amherst, MA Admission: $7.00 -- Open to all -- Beginners are welcome __________________________________ Event #3 -- Sunday afternoon -- An Afternoon for Advanced Dancers -- Challenging dances selected specifically for experienced dancers Called by Philippe Callens Music by Mary Lea, violin; Chris Rua, oboe & recorders; Karen Axelrod, piano September 22, -- 2:00-5:00 PM -- Guiding Star Grange -- Greenfield, MA Admission: $10.00 (includes delectable refreshments) -- Limited to experienced dancers **************************************************************************** General Information: No partner necessary -- but please bring clean, soft-soled shoes for dancing. Staying overnight? Some hospitality is available. For more information about the events or about hospitality, please contact Robin Hayden at: >robinhayden-AT- earthlink.net or phone her at 413-256-8260. This weekend is sponsored by the Pleasures of the Town dance series, member of Amherst Area English Country Dancers, affiliated with Country Dance & Song Society. **************************************************************************** Advance Registration Discount Information for "Across the Atlantic 2002" No advance registration is required, but we offer an Advance Registration Discount, all 3 dances for $22.00, saving $5.00 on admission for the weekend. To register for the whole weekend, simply print out the form below or write the equivalent information on a piece of paper, and send along with a check payable to "Pleasures of the Town" by September 14, 2002. Please print your information clearly! Sorry, no discounts at the door. Cancellation policy: Full refund if cancellation is received by Sept 14. (cut here) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Advance Registration for "Across the Atlantic 2002" Mail payment to: Roger Webb, Registrar 1141 South East Street Amherst, MA 01002 Name(s): ___________________________________________________________________ How many -AT- $22.00 each: _________ Total enclosed: $________________________ For email confirmation of receipt of your registration, please print (very clearly!) your email address: ____________________________________________________________________ (cut here) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - **************************************************************************** Directions to the weekend events [Saturday in Amherst, Sunday in Greenfield] 1) Munson Library -- South East Street, [South] Amherst, MA -- Saturday afternoon and evening From I-91, Exit 19 (Route 9, Amherst): Go east approximately 5+ miles on Route 9. Go past Amherst town common, under the railroad overpass, and TURN RIGHT at the next light onto SOUTHEAST ST. Continue on this road and bear left at the fork as you approach the South Amherst town common. Munson Library is on the left. Free Parking at the church next door or on the street. 2) Guiding Star Grange -- 401 Chapman Street, Greenfield, MA -- Sunday afternoon From the south on I-91 or from the west on Rt 2: On I-91, take EXIT #26 to the rotary (Route 2 east enters the rotary as well). Take Rte 2A east toward Greenfield center. You will come to a traffic light with Dunkin' Donuts on your right. Continue STRAIGHT ascending up the hill to MAIN ST. After about 1/2 mile TURN LEFT onto CHAPMAN ST (after Conway and Wells Sts). Travel a bit more than a mile to the Guiding Star Grange (401 Chapman); it's on the right just before the street ends at Silver St. Free Parking in the Grange lot and lot across the street. From the north on I-91 or from the east on Rt 2: From I-91, exit to Route 2 East towards Boston, and then take your immediate first exit (it will be Rte 5 & 10). At the exit, take a right on Rte. 5 & 10 South. Travel south towards Greenfield center and in less than a half mile you will come to traffic lights with convenience stores on both far corners. TURN RIGHT here onto SILVER ST. Travel about a mile. TURN LEFT onto CHAPMAN ST. The second building on the left is the Guiding Star Grange (401 Chapman). Free Parking in the Grange lot and lot across the street. ================================================================= Joyce B Crouch Telephone: 413-549-4123 95 Pulpit Hill Road Fax: 413-549-7096 Amherst MA 01002 email: joycecrouch-AT- pobox.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:40:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 16:40:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Tideswell-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The quiet hall... dancing without amplification To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT We had good advice from... >Gene Murrow >EC Dancer, Musician, and power-free, scent-free, and gender-free caller >as appropriate I hear Gene is also high-fiber and rich in natural antioxidants, but maybe I shouldn't believe everything I read on bathroom walls. Nilos ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:56:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:59:06 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Frank Kidson To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020801.165702.-1954219.3.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just came across a copy of Frank Kidson's English Country Dances (Curwen, 1914). It includes 12 very easy dances, arranged for children, all but one in a 3 couple set. Kidson points out that the dance changed over the generations, and that one reason for its discontinuance was that when the dance included many couples, most of these had to remain stationary while the top couple performed the figure. "To obviate this disagreeable point a form where three couples only made up the set was introduced." The dances include Gavotte The Guitar The Ladies' Delight The Tangle Jack in a Cage Hornpipe Ligrum Cush Money in Both Pockets The Steam Boat Sukey Bids Me The Merry Sailor The Opera Hat Kidson does not name his source, nor discuss how much he modified the dances. Some of his descriptions are rather clunky, such as this one: "The top boy takes the hand of second girl (both right hands). The second boy takes the hand of the top girl, and they all four go completely round (towards the left hand) until they reach their own places." Kidson was a colleague of Neal, which may explain why he seems unaffected by Sharp's clearer terminology. But does anyone know more about Mr. Kidson? Allison Thompson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:39:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 17:30:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Roger W. Broseus" Subject: Re: Frank Kidson To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <41558.148.184.176.32.1028237440.squirrel-AT- www.weitzman.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020801.165702.-1954219.3.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Allison: I've been told, again and again: Google is your friend. Try searching at google.com for "frank kidson". I struck-out at the LOC site. /Roger > I just came across a copy of Frank Kidson's English Country Dances > (Curwen, 1914). It includes 12 very easy dances, arranged for children, > all but one in a 3 couple set. Kidson points out that the dance > changed over the generations, and that one reason for its > discontinuance was that when the dance included many couples, most of > these had to remain >stationary while the top couple performed the figure. "To obviate this >disagreeable point a form where three couples only made up the set was >introduced." > > The dances include > Gavotte > The Guitar > The Ladies' Delight > The Tangle > Jack in a Cage > Hornpipe > Ligrum Cush > Money in Both Pockets > The Steam Boat > Sukey Bids Me > The Merry Sailor > The Opera Hat > > Kidson does not name his source, nor discuss how much he modified the > dances. Some of his descriptions are rather clunky, such as this one: > "The top boy takes the hand of second girl (both right hands). The > second boy takes the hand of the top girl, and they all four go > completely round (towards the left hand) until they reach their own > places." > > Kidson was a colleague of Neal, which may explain why he seems > unaffected by Sharp's clearer terminology. > > But does anyone know more about Mr. Kidson? > > > Allison Thompson -- Roger W. Broseus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 17:54:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:52:06 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The quiet hall... dancing without am To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <200208012054_MC3-1-967-32DE-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Particularly at the gigs from hell and almost-purgatory, to Gene's fine list I'd add the suggestion to ASK the participants before the dance/music starts, whether anybody has need for any more clarification... _-AT- _ {)/' /\ /\_._,<_/ ' \ /_\ /> /< Hanny ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:35:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:35:39 -0400 From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Peek at Peak To: ecd-digest-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU BCC: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear colleagues, I've been musing about references to "peak" experiences which appear in regard to ECD. I don't know what that means. My personal view, as I have said in my typically tiresome and annoying fashion, is that pleasant recreation is what I look for and find in ECD. I don't think I'm unusual in looking for pleasant recreation rather than something more overwhelming, and I'd assume that recreation can't typically be equated with "peak" experiences. I've heard some contraites refer to something like that, I guess, but it seems unlikely to me in that area as well. Guess I'm just not susceptible. Some of you all may know that I'm a sword dancer. I certainly look for accomplishment, achievement, etc., in that area more than in ECD. But "peak" in sword dancing, for me at least? No, that is too much. It seems to me, fundamentally, to be high-falutin' rhetoric applied to recreational activity. But de gustibus non est disputandum, or something like that. (It's been a long time since junior high Latin.) "Peak" experience... it seems to me that is something that I might discuss most satisfactorily with my wife, but not on this list. Steve Corrsin Steve Corrsin 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel 248-661-6283 fax 248-661-6288 _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:11:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 16:11:27 -0400 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Peek at Peak To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Steven, I'm not sure what you mean by "peak" experiences. I think perhaps your description of "pleasant recreation" might be called a peak in the sense that it is a worthy goal and one that I would assume is quite ubiquitous to all of us who lead dances. I think the responses that stimulated your 2 cents were in reference to digressions from the question - "should caller-less ECD be considered and ideal?" Ideals (peak experiences?) are not the sort of thing that one EXPECTS to encounter, but rather they are the visions that help us to develop our goals and priorities and help us to organize our time management and strategies. For example, I have a vision that it would be wonderful if we could in fact listen to music and it would tell us how to move. Bearing this in mind, I play music that is far better suited to the dance figures than what I might have played if I were doing it for a listening audience. This can contribute significantly to a "pleasant recreational experience" in that the dancers don't have to concentrate so much and can more easily just relax and enjoy themselves. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:22:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 16:39:39 -0400 From: Graham.Christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: No peeking! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There is a flood tide of written material about the ecstatic experience in dance (from the heights of Valery on down)--to which I will not add my own ill-considered blather...not least because I think our dear Dr. Corrsin is being provocative--and perhaps *only* that. Graham Christian Technical Writer, Product Management Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247 Email address: graham.christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Group web address: http://www.risk.sungard.com SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare 3 Post Office Square Boston, MA 02109 "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 23:59:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 01:58:03 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Peek at Peak To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <001f01c23abb$1d28be60$45284b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen D. Corrsin <> P'raps not. I can testify as a musician to having had a couple of experiences that, looking back, qualified as peaks in my book. There was a time at Kimmswick, playing "Duke of Kent's Waltz" with Pam Carson & Margaret Ann Goodman, where, after we'd played for a solid ten or twelve minutes without anyone (musicians or dancers) flagging, you could have scraped me off the moon. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:07:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 02:06:30 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Fw: the U. City Happy Birthday song X-MX-Warning: Warning -- Invalid "To" header. To: Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <004101c23abc$4b9035c0$45284b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks: I'm not sure this is exactly the place to post this, but I'm curious...has this folk custom shown up where you are? (I've heard it a few times, always in University City, MO.) Peace, Paul This originally came from John Uhlemann, international folk dancer and radio programmer: This can be filed under modern folklore, I suppose. University City has a tradition (at least 40 years old, I'm told) of singing Happy Birthday to the tune of the "Song of the Volga Boatmen". Newcomers are often surprised to hear us regale some poor soul with: "Happy Birthday.... Oh, happy birthday.... Children Crying, People dying happy birthday" I now find that other communities have similar versions. I had a chance to compare these at Balkan Camp recently when Petur Iliev was serenaded with the East Coast version: "Happy birthday oh Happy birthday, One more day closer to death happy birthday" No internal rhyme scheme, but punchy, nonetheless. It was enhanced by a stamp and a loud "Unhhh!" after the first line. A discussion followed, during which it appears that the Philadelphia crown has a large repertoire of largely scatological rhymed couplets which they insert in the middle section. This requires repetition of that part of the melodic line, breaking the classic structure, but the couplets themselves have a certain cachet, e.g., "now you've reached the age you are your demise cannot be far" "may the candles on your cake burn like cities in your wake" "May your deeds with sword and ax rival those with sheep and yaks" Etc. The things you learn at Balkan camp.... -John Uhlemann ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:18:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 03:07:27 -0400 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fw: the U. City Happy Birthday song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803030323.022cc040-AT- popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The one I know goes: "Doom destruction and despair, People dying everywhere, Happy birthday, Uhhh! Oh, happy birthday..." Put all the versions together and you'd really have a depressing anthem. Happy dancing--and gloomy singing, if you choose-- Sharon Green At 02:06 AM 8/3/2002 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote: >Hi folks: > >I'm not sure this is exactly the place to post this, but I'm curious...has >this folk custom shown up where you are? (I've heard it a few times, always >in University City, MO.) > >Peace, >Paul > >This originally came from John Uhlemann, international folk dancer and radio >programmer: > > >This can be filed under modern folklore, I suppose. University City has a >tradition (at least 40 years old, I'm told) of singing Happy Birthday to the >tune of the "Song of the Volga Boatmen". Newcomers are often surprised to >hear >us regale some poor soul with: > >"Happy Birthday.... >Oh, happy birthday.... >Children Crying, People dying >happy birthday" > >I now find that other communities have similar versions. I had a chance to >compare these at Balkan Camp recently when Petur Iliev was serenaded with >the >East Coast version: > >"Happy birthday >oh Happy birthday, >One more day closer to death >happy birthday" > >No internal rhyme scheme, but punchy, nonetheless. It was enhanced by a >stamp and a loud "Unhhh!" after the first line. > >A discussion followed, during which it appears that the Philadelphia crown >has a large repertoire of largely scatological rhymed couplets which they >insert in the middle section. This requires repetition of that part of the >melodic line, breaking the classic structure, but the couplets themselves >have a certain cachet, e.g., > >"now you've reached the age you are >your demise cannot be far" > >"may the candles on your cake >burn like cities in your wake" > >"May your deeds with sword and ax >rival those with sheep and yaks" > >Etc. > >The things you learn at Balkan camp.... > >-John Uhlemann ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:20:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:16:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Fw: the U. City Happy Birthday song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKUAZGE5AGHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul wrote: > I'm not sure this is exactly the place to post this I'm not sure either, but I'll play along. >, but I'm curious...has > this folk custom shown up where you are? (I've heard it a few times, always > in University City, MO.) It's well entrenched in Bay Area morris dance circles, which used to overlap country dance circles very extensively and still somewhat do. Alisa Dodson used to compose new couplets tailored to the birthday girl/boy (and perhaps still does, but now she's an out-of-towner). > "May your deeds with sword and ax > rival those with sheep and yaks" I prefer this to the version in common use here: "Hear the women wail and weep kill them all but save the sheep" -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 01:05:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 01:05:38 -0700 From: Howard Carlberg Subject: Re: Fw: the U. City Happy Birthday song To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D4B8EC4.36E041FF-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <004101c23abc$4b9035c0$45284b0c-AT- paulstam> Paul Stamler wrote: > "Happy birthday > oh Happy birthday, > One more day closer to death > happy birthday" > "now you've reached the age you are > your demise cannot be far" > > "may the candles on your cake > burn like cities in your wake" This sounds like the norm for the west coast morris crowd, and has crept into other venues (Mendocino English Week) populated by morris folk. cherio, Howard -- Howard & Shirley Carlberg 878 Pauline Court Santa Rosa, CA 95401 (707) 528-2310 - phone in house ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 01:22:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:23:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Oh, I get it now To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKUD5TAI4OHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- This will be discursive, perhaps rambling, and may not get anywhere. You have been warned. Gene Murrow led what amounted to a caller's symposium at Mendocino English Week, and did a fine job of it. Anyway, we were on the subject of the historical background of the revival. As we've said before, Sharp looked at village dances ("Bonnets So Blue", etc, as seen in Country Dance Book 1 and the Community dances manual), derived a dance style from that, and then applied it (in an historically-inappropriate way) to Playford dances. [Usually this is where I go off on the rant about how RenFaire peasants doing first-edition Playford dances in hyper-Sharp mode may well be doing the best they can, but those weren't peasant dances and running flat out is unlikely to have been the country dance footwork, and I use the word "bogus" to describe the historical-ness of Sharp style. This is a different thought, if related.] (I know Gene reads the list, so he can correct me if I mis-paraphrase him.) Gene's point was that Sharp tripped himself up in his intended purpose of bringing pure English folk culture back to the folk by filling up his repertoire with complicated non-folk dances that are hard to learn with a pint of beer in you. The Playford-derived (or inspired) ECD repertoire is not the most congenial material for the one-night-stand, the wedding reception where you want to involve the family as well as the dancers, or the village celebration. (And in fact, Douglas Kennedy realized this and eventually more-or-less forswore that repertoire in favor of what went into the Community Dance Manuals project, which [I add now] is very much the same kind of thing that appears at English ceilidh dances now.) I've been thinking about this sporadically since; the rest of this is the result of my ruminations. (Blame me, not Gene.) We have an ECD repertoire that contains: 1) Dances that people went to dancing school to learn how to do 2) Dances that people practiced extensively to perform for others (whether or not the small-set Playford dances were used like Italian court dances in that regard, certainly Bray's theatrical afterpieces fall in this category) 3) Dances that don't fit the music clearly because a) Mr. Sharp didn't like the music that came with it and attached other music ("Hit and Miss", for example) or b) we don't do the stepping that _made_ it fit the music ("Draper's Maggot") or c) we don't play it as it was meant to be played 4) Dances that, taken cumulatively, require us to know 350 years' worth of different figures, some of which only show up in a handful of dances 5) Dances that blithely expect us to do closed-couple waltz ("Heidenroslein", "Margaret's Waltz", modern interpretation of "Northdown Waltz") or polka (every swing-and-change dance) whether or not we know it 6) Dances that fall to pieces if you turn the wrong way or get the timing wrong 7) Dances whose choreographers assume that in addition to the entire ECD lexicon we're also on top of the contra and square dance lexicon as well ("Levi Jackson", my own "MM") and 8) Easy, simple, vigorous dances, some of which the experienced dancers refuse to do. (If you doubt that last, think "rant".) There's clearly some effect from having this kind of repertoire, and from making a conscious effort to keep up this kind of repertoire. (Compared, say, to contra dancing, where the repertoire in common use is mostly recently-composed dances with similar esthetic qualities, and callers/choreographers happily tweak existing dances to make them fit the tastes of the people who are dancing now.) Put like this, it's kind of amazing that there are as many people who dig the whole range of ECD as there are. Or to put it another way, it's not surprising that ECD is a minority interest, even compared to contra dancing, which itself is certainly a minority interest compared to NASCAR racing (or curling, for that matter). So long as ECD is constituted the way it is, it'll always be a fractional, fringe, minority interest. (Which is fine; it just suggests that one should find some other mission in life than trying to make ECD as popular as birdwatching, let alone football.) Is it surprising that a lot of English dancers came to it with backgrounds in other kinds of dance? How many did ECD first and only? Is it surprising that many people who only go to their local ECD series never get very good? (The imperatives of running a dance as distinct from a class may mean that there isn't a lot of coaching; if you haven't taken other dance classes and haven't learned how to learn style, you're unlikely to learn it at your regular series. [In the Bay Area there's a spectrum; Jody McGeen is, thank heaven, not afraid to have her dance sometimes be a class, but this doesn't happen anywhere near as much at the other dances I frequent.] For a lot of people, developing good style is an extra-credit activity that you get from going to a stand-alone style workshop, or to dance camp, or by being on a performing team and getting coaching there - and a lot of people never do that. The sheer variety of dances keep plenty of dancers busy without having to think about falling forward if somebody shoots them, or lifting the egg out of the egg cup. (Now, this is also true for contradancing, and there are plenty of longtime contradancers who aren't very good, but there are also more first-timers or short-timers who are good almost immediately.) Is there a conclusion here? Maybe so. Some people (Don Bell, I think, is one) have simply started classes which are acknowledged as such. Give people a six-week course in ECD where they're actually expecting to pay attention and learn, rather than shut up and dance, and perhaps those people can join the wider ECD community filled with deserved confidence, and even being examples to others. Perhaps this would be a good recruiting approach for more communities. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 06:37:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 09:36:03 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan writes: >Anyway, we were on the subject of the historical background of the revival. As >we've said before, Sharp looked at village dances ("Bonnets So Blue", etc, as >seen in Country Dance Book 1 and the Community dances manual), derived a dance I was wondering....does anyone know where Ardern Holt's work fits into this picture? His 1907 work includes a bunch of country dances, along with some stunningly bad reconstructions of earlier material. I know nothing about him. Was he deriving from Sharp? Working independently? Deriving from someone else? Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 06:58:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 09:57:55 -0400 From: Maryn McKenna Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fw: the U. City Happy Birthday song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803095242.00a346a0-AT- mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <004101c23abc$4b9035c0$45284b0c-AT- paulstam> At 01:05 AM 8/3/02 -0700, Howard Carlberg wrote: [Volga Boatmen Birthday etc.] <and has crept into other venues (Mendocino English Week) populated by >morris folk.>> ditto for the East Coast, probably for the same reason (evidence of n=1: i learned it at ales but have heard it at Pinewoods weeks). here in the South, though, i have found almost no one who knows it who isn't also a transplant. that may be due to the concomitant lack of morris here, imagining morris as the vector for this. local dancer/folkies are more likely to sing a round such as "God danced the day you were born," which certainly swings more though is perhaps less, ummm, *traditional.* maryn atlanta, regrettably ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 07:17:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 06:45:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKUPJ6PZF4HOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susan(-AT- generalist.org) wrote: > Alan writes: > >Anyway, we were on the subject of the historical background of the revival. As > >we've said before, Sharp looked at village dances ("Bonnets So Blue", etc, as > >seen in Country Dance Book 1 and the Community dances manual), derived a dance > I was wondering....does anyone know where Ardern Holt's work fits into > this picture? His 1907 work includes a bunch of country dances, along > with some stunningly bad reconstructions of earlier material. I > know nothing about him. I never heard of him before this very second. A quick google search suggests that he was publishing as early as 1887. http://www.civilization.ca/hist/balls/i-4d1eng.html shows a fashion plate from the fifth edition of Holt's "Fancy Dresses Described", 1887, and pairs it with a photo of someone actually wearing a version of this amazing costume. The Maypole dance text quoted at http://www.geocities.com/pagan_rosehawk/maypole_dance.htm is too Merrie Englande to live; it amusingly contrasts introductory material about lusty peasants tramping off to the woods to get the Maypole with instructions for Maypole dancing referring to ladies (who "trip to the centre") and gentlemen. (And of course backdates the Maypole ribbon-plaiting to the dawn of time; I'd understood Maypoles to go back a long way but ribbon-plaiting to appear in England only in late Victorian times, possibly introduced by Mr. Ruskin.) He had a piece called "The Home Beautiful" in Ladies' Realm Magazine in 1901; although this is in a list that claims to be a list of fiction titles, other entries are non-fiction. and I'm inclined to think this is too. I see the writeup at the LoC page says "Holt's interpretations bear no resemblance to the originals; however, they do clearly illuminate the romanticized aura that began to surround such dances as the minuet during the nineteenth century." Stunningly bad, indeed - but illustrated with amusing photographs including some extremely Edwardian versions of Renaissance court dress. There are various books about reviving the "ancient dances" around 1900-1910; I don't know why that was such a hot topic then. (Rebellion against the telegraph and internal combustion engine?) In retrospect from here, Edwardian life seems pretty good. >Was he deriving from Sharp? Working > independently? Deriving from someone else? Looking at his Dargason reconstruction (where he explains that the Hay is described in Arbeau) it's pretty clear that he's not deriving from Sharp. He's got hold of a 1665 Playford and is using it as he's using any other source materials. Interestingly, the Playford dances are "Old English Dances"; a separate chapter on "Country Dances" includes The Maypole Dance, The Furry Dance, and "the cotillon", which is just an opportunity to plug another book of his: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has always been a fashionable dance, but dates no further back than the reign of Charles X., originating, as so much connected with dancing does, in France. The waltz is its most important movement, though sometimes now associated with the polka. It is very much the mode in Society, and by its means many beautiful gifts are distributed. But there are several simple figures that can be given without accessories. There are, however, so many varieties of figures that they demand a volume to themselves, and one has been already issued* in which many hundreds are so minutely described and illustrated that they can be carried out quite easily. "The Cotillon." By Ardern Holt. Price 2s. 6d. London: Horace Cox, Windsor House, Bream's Buildings, E-C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (I always thought cotillions were French and cotillons ("or, The German") were German, but he could be right.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 08:59:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 11:58:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fw: the U. City Happy Birthday song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Then there is the Dark Horde version: "May the cities in your wake/Burn like candles on your cake..." Will Linden wlinden-AT- panix.com http://www.ecben.net/ Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:51:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:51:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020803235107.2375.qmail-AT- web13801.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > We have an ECD repertoire that contains: .... > 8) Easy, simple, vigorous dances, some of which the > experienced dancers refuse to do. (If you doubt that last, > think "rant".) It is not that we "refuse" to do them. We are just getting older, and we have bad knees, feet that get re-injured if we bounce around too much, too much weight to dance energeti- cally, etc. Myself, I can't dance half-heartedly. At this point, rants and such are out of the question, because I can't physically dance them full-out anymore, and I find it impossible to do any less. I remember Nicolas Broadbridge complaining in a post that when he was calling here in Boston, we refused to do a skipchange of step. Well, if I do that, I re-injure the right metatarsal arch, and I don't get to dance at all for a few weeks. > Is it surprising that a lot of English dancers came to it > with backgrounds in other kinds of dance? How many did > ECD first and only? I was going to say I did, but then I remembered the Mexican Hat Dance in third grade in Seattle and and the square dance classes after school at the American School in Japan (Tokyo), taught by another Pan Am couple whose hobby it was. > Is it surprising that many people who only go to their > local ECD series never get very good? (The imperatives > of running a dance as distinct from a class may mean that > there isn't a lot of coaching....) [In the Bay Area > there's a spectrum; Jody McGeen is, thank heaven, not > afraid to have her dance sometimes be a class, but this > doesn't happen anywhere near as much at the other dances > I frequent.] I am glad to have learned from May Gadd, Genny Shimer, and others during that era. > The sheer variety of dances keeps plenty of dancers busy > without having to think about falling forward if somebody > shoots them, or lifting the egg out of the egg cup. I don't understand why anybody "learns dances" anymore, exept for demos. It made sense when the repertoire was small (in many cases, limited to what was recorded), but it is at least 4 times bigger now, and probably more (maybe 6 or 8?). It's more important, as my brother Andy often says, to learn danc*ing.* > Give people a six-week course in ECD where they're > actually expecting to pay attention and learn, rather than > shut up and dance.... I wish we could do something like that here. I think Barbara Finney did a course through Cambridge Adult Ed. a few years ago, but I wish we could do something regular through the Centre. It's hard to see people floundering and left to pick things up on the fly. Years ago I took a college friend to a dance weekend. Before we left home, I stood her up in the living room and taught her the basic figures. People at the weekend were amazed to hear that she had never danced before at all. Lyrl Ahern Boston Centre __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:29:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:29:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020804032931.3721.qmail-AT- web20005.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Lyrl Catherine Ahern wrote: > It's more important, as my brother Andy often says, > to learn danc*ing.* And that means learning how to do the figures so that you can put them together in any of the myriad of combinations available. I _do_ know many dances from memory (if the right tune is played), but I also have the ability to execute figures on the fly, e.g. in a Contra Medley at NEFFA. I couldn't do that if I didn't know the basic terminology. Knowing what a particular term means is more important than knowing what figure follows what in a specific dance. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:39:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:41:14 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: birthday dirge To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Wow, it's not often I get to contribute to ECD. Here's what I send to my friends on their birthdays: >and then the birthday dirge. The sound of 100 people pounding wooden >tables in an open air dining hall for the is impressive. >Here you go, from the Birthday Dirge FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/birthday-dirge-faq/ THE BIRTHDAY DIRGE tune: "Volga Boatmen" Happy Birthday! Happy Birthday! 1. Now you've aged another year Now you know that Death is near Happy Birthday! Happy Birthday! 1a. So you've aged another year Now you know that Death is near 2. Children dying far and near They say that cancer's caused by bheer 2a. Children dying everywhere Women crying in despair 3. Death, destruction, and despair People dying everywhere 3a. Doom and gloom and dark despair People dying everywhere! 3b. Doom, destruction, and despair Grief and sorrow fill the air 3c. Doom, destruction, and despair People dying everywhere 3d. Death and gloom and black despair People dying everywhere 3e. Pain destruction and despair People dying everywhere 4. Typhoid, plague and polio Coffins lined up in a row 5. Now that you're the age you are Your demise cannot be far 5a. Now you are the age you are Your demise cannot be far 5b. When you've reached the age you are Your demise cannot be far Other Common Verses: 6. Black Death has just struck your town You yourself feel quite run-down 6a. Pestilence has struck your town You yourself feel quite run-down 7. Birthdays come but once a year Marking time as Death draws near 8. Long ago your hair turned grey Now it's falling out, they say 8a. Soon your hair will all turn grey Then fall out (or so they say) The Viking/Barbarian Verses: 9. Burn the castle and storm the keep Kill the women, but save the sheep 9a. Hear the women wail and weep Kill them all, but spare the sheep 9b. May the women wail and weep kill them all, but save the sheep 10. Burn, then rape by firelight Add _romance_ to life tonight 11. Indigestion's what you get From the enemies you 'et 12. May the candles on your cake Burn like cities in your wake. 12a. May the cities in your wake Burn like candles on your cake, 13. May the children in the street Be your barbequeing meat 13a. We love children, yes we do Baked or broiled or in a stew 14. May your deeds with sheep and yaks Equal those with sword and axe 14a. May your deeds with sword and axe Equal those with sheep and yaks 15. They stole your sword, your gold, your house Took your sheep but not your spouse 16. This one lesson you must learn First you pillage, then you burn 17. While you eat your birthday stew We will loot the town for you, The SCA Verses: 18. We brought linen, white as cloud Now we'll sit and sew your shroud 19. You're a period cook, its true Ask the beetles in the stew 20. Your servants steal, your wife's untrue Your children plot to murder you Other Verses: 21. Fear and gloom and darkness but No one found out you-know-what 21a. Just be glad the friends you've got Haven't found out you-know-what 22. I'm a leper, can't you see Have a birthday kiss from me 23. It's your birthday never fear You'll be dead this time next year 24. Now another year has passed Don't look now they're gaining fast! 24a. So far Death you have bypassed Don't look back, he's gaining fast 25. Now you've lived another year Age to you is like stale beer 26. Now your jail-bait days are done Let's go out and have some fun 27. See the wrinkles on your face Like the pattern of fine lace 28. Were I sitting in your shoes I'd go out and sing the blues 29. So you're 29 again Don't tell lies to your good friend 29a. Tho you're turning 29 Age to you is like fine wine 30. You must marry very soon Baby's due the next full moon 31. When you've reached this age you know That the mind is first to go ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:58:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:58:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020804035823.5318.qmail-AT- web20010.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alan Winston wrote: > Is it surprising that many people who only go to their local ECD > series never get very good? That is a very generalized statement, as it depends upon the group and the teacher(s) in that group, as well as individuals. I've certainly danced with very good dancers who never go to other venues, as well as there being people that I see _everywhere_ who are just as bad a dancer as they were 20 years ago. > (The imperatives of running a dance as > distinct from a class may mean that there isn't a lot of coaching; > if you haven't taken other dance classes and haven't learned how to > learn style, you're unlikely to learn it at your regular series. I have _always_ contended that teaching dancING does not have to be exclusive from teaching dancES. It all depends upon _how_ you teach. I have an issue with "experienced" dancers who think it's boring and insulting when a caller/teacher takes a little extra time to teach people how to execute a figure or movement. (I use the quotes there because there are many who consider themselves experienced who still don't really have a clue because they don't bother to pay attention; especially true of some Contra dancers I know.) The idea is that the more people who know how to do it well, the more pleasure there is for everyone on the floor. Wouldn't you rather dance with a bunch of people who know what they are doing than have to struggle through a dance with people who haven't got a clue where they are going? Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:18:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:05:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKVTE85S6IHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > --- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing > wrote: > > We have an ECD repertoire that contains: > .... > > 8) Easy, simple, vigorous dances, some of which the > > experienced dancers refuse to do. (If you doubt that > last, > > think "rant".) > It is not that we "refuse" to do them. We are just getting > older, and we have bad knees, feet that get re-injured if > we bounce around too much, too much weight to dance > energeti- > cally, etc. > Myself, I can't dance half-heartedly. At this point, > rants and such are out of the question, because I can't > physically dance them full-out anymore, and I find it > impossible to do any less. > I remember Nicolas Broadbridge complaining in a post > that when he was calling here in Boston, we refused to do a > skipchange of step. Well, if I do that, I re-injure the > right metatarsal arch, and I don't get to dance at all for > a few weeks. I didn't mean to imply any moral failure or lack of cooperative spirit in "refuse to do"; I just mean that all of you have to say is "and here's the beloved Morpeth Rant" and a lot of people sit down. (And if a caller insists on calling more than a couple of those, that caller will get booked less often.) From the point of view of the new person, who can more easily get his head around CDM-type material (which tends to be in the hard-on-the-joints end of the spectrum), he sees a lot of tribal elders sitting out the dances he can understand. > > Is it surprising that a lot of English dancers came to it > > with backgrounds in other kinds of dance? How many did > > ECD first and only? > I was going to say I did, but then I remembered the Mexican > Hat Dance in third grade in Seattle and and the square > dance classes after school at the American School in Japan > (Tokyo), taught by another Pan Am couple whose hobby it > was. Similarly, I had some square dance lessons in fourth grade and one semester of tap in college, and then found Regency dancing and dug it. (The limited repertoire of Regency-as-promulgated-by-John-Hertz evaded some of the problems I mention in the original post, and I was a confident country dancer by the time I came to mainstream ECD.) > > Is it surprising that many people who only go to their > > local ECD series never get very good? (The imperatives > > of running a dance as distinct from a class may mean that > > there isn't a lot of coaching....) [In the Bay Area > > there's a spectrum; Jody McGeen is, thank heaven, not > > afraid to have her dance sometimes be a class, but this > > doesn't happen anywhere near as much at the other dances > > I frequent.] > I am glad to have learned from May Gadd, Genny Shimer, and > others during that era. Indeed, but we're mostly not there now. I'm glad I went to Genny's classes at my first Mendocino week in 1987. > > The sheer variety of dances keeps plenty of dancers busy > > without having to think about falling forward if somebody > > shoots them, or lifting the egg out of the egg cup. > I don't understand why anybody "learns dances" anymore, > exept for demos. It made sense when the repertoire was > small (in many cases, limited to what was recorded), but it > is at least 4 times bigger now, and probably more (maybe 6 > or 8?). It's more important, as my brother Andy often says, > to learn danc*ing.* I didn't mean to suggest that people were too busy memorizing dances to learn dancing; rather, that people who aren't being taught dancing (as distinct from figures) can get as much mental work as they want just by trying to comprehend a new program every week. > > Give people a six-week course in ECD where they're > > actually expecting to pay attention and learn, rather > than > > shut up and dance.... > I wish we could do something like that here. I think > Barbara Finney did a course through Cambridge Adult Ed. a > few years ago, but I wish we could do something regular > through the Centre. It's hard to see people floundering and > left to pick things up on the fly. > Years ago I took a college friend to a dance weekend. > Before we left home, I stood her up in the living room and > taught her the basic figures. People at the weekend were > amazed to hear that she had never danced before at all. Again, learning figures before getting to a dance party helps calm anxious newcomers and helps reduce teaching time. But I think figures are getting successfully conveyed at most ECD evenings anyway; style is what's not getting across as well. (I'm talking about poor dancing because those are the points Lyrl responded to in my original post, but I think that was actually a sideline in my original post, which, while muddled, was more concerned with what we're offering newcomers than with how well they take it up.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:26:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:18:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKVTOI515GHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > --- Lyrl Catherine Ahern wrote: > > It's more important, as my brother Andy often says, > > to learn danc*ing.* > And that means learning how to do the figures so that you can put > them together in any of the myriad of combinations available. I _do_ > know many dances from memory (if the right tune is played), but I > also have the ability to execute figures on the fly, e.g. in a Contra > Medley at NEFFA. I couldn't do that if I didn't know the basic > terminology. Knowing what a particular term means is more important > than knowing what figure follows what in a specific dance. In general, I agree with that (although I can think of exceptions; some RenFaire-oriented groups dance first-edition Playford socially without prompting, so it's "Eight up for Confess!" and then the music starts; those people need to know the order of the figures in the specific dance. Of course that's fallout from their performing the dances in public. However, you can teach figures on the fly in an ECD evening. (Heys may be troublesome, although I had pretty good results in Berkeley the other night with a bunch of newcomers and double figure eights, mirror heys, and then heys for three. We crashed and burned in a dance with heys for four, but it was going really well up 'til then.) What people need to dance this stuff well is good carriage, a sense of the musical phrase, appropriate degrees of arm tension, the ability to tell left from right, a willingness to connect with the partner of the moment, and the ability to remember names of figures. (That may not be an exhaustive list, but I'm exhausted at the moment.) What they get at regular dances, in my experience, is occasional discussion about arm tension and lots of geography. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 04:35:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:34:37 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I keep circling this thread with great interest looking for a line to tag on to. I'm wildly unqualified to talk about the typical evening of modern ECD. My assigned vocation in life appears to be teacher-of- beginners, though, and I'm about to embark on a series of monthly workshops on Regency (1810's) dancing which will include a significant amount of country dancing. So, rambling all over the place to no special point... Alan writes: >However, you can teach figures on the fly in an ECD evening. (Heys may be >troublesome, although I had pretty good results in Berkeley the other night >with a bunch of newcomers and double figure eights, mirror heys, and then heys >for three. We crashed and burned in a dance with heys for four, but it was >going really well up 'til then.) What people need to dance this stuff well is >good carriage, a sense of the musical phrase, appropriate degrees of arm >tension, the ability to tell left from right, a willingness to connect with the >partner of the moment, and the ability to remember names of figures. (That may >not be an exhaustive list, but I'm exhausted at the moment.) What they get at >regular dances, in my experience, is occasional discussion about arm tension >and lots of geography. I'm looking at the requirements needed for Regency country dancing, and along with Alan's list above, coming up with two or three others: - knowledge of the basic step-sequences and a couple of decent setting steps - ability to apply those steps to the figures - ability to learn a dance on the fly by which I mean: - the dancing-master says the figures once - the lead couple [only] begins the dance - everyone else picks it up by watching as it "comes down" and, for at least a selected group of people, - the ability to make up dances on the fly, or memorize created ones, since the leading lady (or gent, depending on source) "calls" the dance - Regency styling (which is not the same as MECD styling) Obviously this makes knowing a set repertoire of figures absolutely critical - I think if you are trying for the rest of the above, you do not have the luxury of teaching figures during an actual evening. There's too much else for people to handle without having to deal with unfamiliar ones. Luckily, Regency country dance had a relatively limited number of figures that were commonly used (as opposed to the lovely fancy ones you see in the manuals, which almost never show up in actual dances.) The dances themselves are interchangeable; I have at least one manual that spells this out explicitly (paraphrasing: that you can dance any dance of a given length to any tune of the same length.) This is reinforced by the recycling of dances in the manuals to go with multiple different tunes. I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that all those manuals of "Twenty New Country Dances" are misleading to the modern ear in the way they use the word "dance". They don't mean dance choreographies; those are noticeably not-new in most of them (sometimes the same choreography is assigned to multiple dances in the same manual!) They mean new tunes to dance to. This impression is reinforced by the common subtitle "with their figures", which says to me that "dance" refers to the tune, not the figures. So I don't want people to learn particular dances - in fact, that's a problem, since if you program yourself to a particular piece of music it would throw you to then have to do a different dance to it every time. I'm trying to figure out how to teach this flexibility, and - worse yet - how to apply it in a formal ball situation where I will likely have walk-ins with little or no experience. One doesn't need a large step-repertoire for this; you can master only five or six and be an adequate if not especially stylish Regency dancer. And while I'm teaching the steps to people who show up to learn them (before the regular class), I know from experience that a combination of people stepping and people just walking or skipping through these dances does work, so my priority for the beginners is the format: learning the figures well enough to do them with no walk-through and not being terrified at having random recombinations of figures thrown at them. So, part of this involves ruthlessly limiting even the already-limited repertoire of figures so that I can concentrate on getting what's almost more of a psychological attitude than a dance skill into people. I also have to teach dance-composition to at least a group of clever ladies, and I'm finding Wilson's pages and pages of charts suddenly useful for this, but I'm also setting a modest goal of getting people to compose just 32-bar dances on the spot with a selection of my limited figure repertoire. I guess where this ties loosely into this thread is Alan's (or Gene's via Alan's) comment about the need to learn a 350-year repertoire of figures. I've made a decision that even to learn a one-decade repertoire is not a suitable short-term goal for this project, and am limiting the figures even more strictly in the interest of achieving the format. A 350-year repertoire of figures, even leaving aside the need to learn three or four distinct styles of dancing to do them, strikes me as an utter impossibility if one wishes to perform the dances in a historic format (context? setting? I keep digging for a suitable label for what I'm trying for. Style is not it.) I can see why that would lead to a lessening of emphasis on other elements of dancing. But my tradeoff is that I want to emphasize other elements and am doing it at the expense of the figure repertoire. I wonder if this would mean MECD'ers would find it dull? My experience with the occasional MECD'er who turns up at a workshop is that they are very, very good at figures, both the ones they know and at picking up new ones fast, but have a lot of trouble, or perhaps a lack of interest, in adapting their style - notably, in turning off the "flow" of figures from one into the other, which I do not think is not particularly characteristic of this era of dance. To summarize: I think that one cannot do (1) a huge variety of figures in (2) constantly changing new combinations and (3) still work on teaching much style. One of the three is going to get de-emphasized. I'm making it variety; there appears to be an observation that in MECD it's style. I am not offering any opinion on whether this is a valid observation or not, so please don't transmute this into "Susan knocks MECD for lack of style." Finally, as to the reason why I'm working these choices and on making Regency a live and functioning format for dancing: Because We Think It's Fun To Do Historic Dance As Correctly As We Can. I expect some people won't get that, or will actively disagree, but I'd love to be spared snide comments on why on earth anyone would bother, 'kay? I promise not to ask you the same question. Susan (and if anyone's interested in becoming part of this project, I'm looking at first (mostly) Sundays in NYC starting in January. And it won't just be country dancing. Wanna sauteuse?) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:21:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:06:09 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re:Ardern Holt To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020804.102041.-2057543.4.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't know much about Holt, but from reading between the lines of his Ancient Dances, I suspect that he was a fashionable dancing master who worked with Nellie Chaplin, who was an earlier reconstructor of court dances (branles, galliards, etc.) as well as country dances--she beat Sharp to publication on at least a few of these, such as Chelsea Reach. Allison ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:21:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:20:41 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Maypole dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020804.102041.-2057543.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Roy Judge has shown in his work, “Tradition and the Plaited Maypole Dance,” in Traditional Dance, vol. 2, edited by Theresa Buckland, (Crewe and Alsager College of Higher Education, 1983), pp. 1-21, that the plaited maypole dance was developed by Victorian theatre dancing masters around 1837. The dance, often performed on the stage in conjunction with morris, proved to be a big hit, and gradually moved out to other venues, such as well-dressings and other public and private festivals. John Ruskin, whose musings on art and life were very popular in England and America, developed connections with the principal of Whitelands Teachers' Training College in Chelsea, London. In 1888 he persuaded the principal to transform the annual prize-giving event to a May Queen event. The nicest or “likeablest” senior girl was to be secretly elected by her classmates. Ruskin awarded the winner a gold cross and a complete bound set of his works, of which she was to keep one volume (Sesame and Lilies) and give the others to her friends. The Queen wore an elaborate & unique gown (most of which are still owned by the College.) The event gradually added a procession of the previously elected queens, all decked in their elaborate gowns. As part of the festivities, the girls danced the maypole dance for the Queen. Ruskin (and the principal of Whitelands, who quickly perceived what a great advertising stunt this all was) did much to popularize the maypole dance and connect it to a may queen, but Ruskin did not invent or import the dance. This may be a good point for a shameless self-plug for my article, "I'm to be Queen of the May, Mother! May Day Festivals in America, 1875-1993," which should appear later this year or early next in a volume tentatively titled, Calendar Customs, edited by Georgina Boyes and to be published by Francis Boutles. Allison Thompson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:45:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:45:38 -0400 From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: McLuhan was right about ECD To: ecd-digest-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU BCC: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is a response, sort of, to Mr Winston's survey of how many different types or styles of dances and dancing get stuffed into the ECD bag these days. I would suggest that Marshall McLuhan was right on the money when he said about ECD: It's anything you can get away with.* Now, to set up a simple "if/ then" statement. This perhaps can be interpreted in this context as: if the crowd of dancers, expecting ECD per the flyer or other mode of advertising, does *NOT* rise up in fury, rush the stage, and rend the caller/ teacher/ leader limb from limb; then you've got ECD. I feel better now, too. xxxo Steve C. Steve Corrsin 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel 248-661-6283 fax 248-661-6288 *ps Of course, McLuhan is supposed to have said that about Art in general. pps Not ECD. ppps Nor Munisteri, I guess. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 08:22:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:21:36 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Maypole dancing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Allison Thompson writes: >Roy Judge has shown in his work, Tradition and the Plaited Maypole >Dance, in Traditional Dance, vol. 2, edited by Theresa Buckland, ( >Crewe and Alsager College of Higher Education, 1983), pp. 1-21, that >the plaited maypole dance was developed by Victorian theatre dancing >masters around 1837. A particular dance, yes, but ribbon-plaiting around a pole or tree as a dance goes back at least three centuries further in Europe. I don't know if they were reinventing the wheel or drawing on an unbroken folk tradition, but it *had* been done before. Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 09:00:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 09:00:42 -0700 From: Paul / Victoria Bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: dancing the dances well To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020803195127.00a2d7c0-AT- mail.oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Alan said, > > > Give people a six-week course in ECD where they're > > actually expecting to pay attention and learn, rather > > than shut up and dance.... and again quoting Alan, " learning figures before getting to a dance party helps calm anxious newcomers and helps reduce teaching time. But I think figures are getting successfully conveyed at most ECD evenings anyway; style is what's not getting across as well." Agreed! This seems like a good time to mention that if you are in the Seattle area this fall and winter, you can come to classes where good dancing will be taught. These classes will be evenings of dancing to great music, but the focus is on dancing WELL, and not just on learning figures. Style is taught as an integral part of the figure, and dances for each evening are selected for their opportunity to practice the skill being taught that evening. The classes are Tuesday nights starting Sept. 24. from 7:30-9:30 PM at the University Friends Center. They are taught by Charlene Kern and myself. (Charlene is the mezzo for whom you sent me song words last year so some classes will include dancing to her divine singing) Three special evenings are planned during the series: Oct 15 will be focused on Portland ball dances and will be taught by Mary Devlin of Portland. Nov 19 is an evening of dances to Purcell tunes some of which will be sung by Charlene. Nov. 5 is a class in Scottish dances for English dancers and will be taught by Irene Paterson. There is no class Dec 17,21 or Jan 1. The series ends Jan 14, by which time you will be able to stun everyone with your magnificent dancing at the Seattle English Coutnry Ball which occurs the following weekend (MLK weekend) Laurie Andres, Julie King, Anita Anderson, Dave Bartley, Joe Bowbeer, Kimberley McKittrick and Sande Gillette are band leaders for the classes. So if you already know all about ECD style, you'll probably want to come anyway, just to have more opportunities to dance to glorious music. And we do love to have experienced dancers modeling beautiful dancing for and with the beginners, so we make efforts to keep the teaching efficient, so experienced dancers enjoy themselves too. All classes are fragrance-free. See the Seattle Ball or Cascadia websites for more info on how to accomplish this. Victoria Bestock, Seattle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:19:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Maypole dancing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKWGHZ87VIHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- I'd like to thank Allison Thompson for her correction about the origins of the plaited maypole dance in England and the connection with John Ruskin. I was going from the top of my head and I'm glad to have someone who knows whereof she speaks produce the facts. > This may be a good point for a shameless self-plug for my article, "I'm > to be Queen of the May, Mother! May Day Festivals in America, > 1875-1993," which should appear later this year or early next in a volume > tentatively titled, Calendar Customs, edited by Georgina Boyes and to be > published by Francis Boutles. I shall look forward to it. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:08:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:19:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKWI7FUC4OHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susan(-AT- generalist.org) wrote: > I'm looking at the requirements needed for Regency country dancing, and > along with Alan's list above, coming up with two or three others: > - knowledge of the basic step-sequences and a couple of decent setting steps > - ability to apply those steps to the figures > - ability to learn a dance on the fly by which I mean: > - the dancing-master says the figures once > - the lead couple [only] begins the dance > - everyone else picks it up by watching as it "comes down" > and, for at least a selected group of people, > - the ability to make up dances on the fly, or memorize created ones, > since the leading lady (or gent, depending on source) "calls" the dance > - Regency styling (which is not the same as MECD styling) I think this is a fabulous project, and I wish I could participate. (NYC is a little far from SF to make that likely.) When I lead a Regency ball, I'm keenly conscious of the anomalousness of my position. (If it were a public ball at Bath there'd be a master of ceremonies, but you wouldn't have a _caller_, and you certainly wouldn't at a private event (like Mr. Bingley's ball at Netherfield).) We usually come up with some rationale to excuse my presence. > Obviously this makes knowing a set repertoire of figures absolutely > critical - I think if you are trying for the rest of the above, you do > not have the luxury of teaching figures during an actual evening. Indeed. > There's too much else for people to handle without having to deal with > unfamiliar ones. Luckily, Regency country dance had a relatively > limited number of figures that were commonly used (as opposed to the > lovely fancy ones you see in the manuals, which almost never show up > in actual dances.) So you won't be doing the true lover's knot? Darn. (You get the idea of which were commonly used by comparing the figures in published dances to the figures in, eg, Wilson?) > I guess where this ties loosely into this thread is Alan's (or Gene's > via Alan's) comment about the need to learn a 350-year repertoire of > figures. I've made a decision that even to learn a one-decade > repertoire is not a suitable short-term goal for this project, and am > limiting the figures even more strictly in the interest of achieving > the format. Seems entirely sensible. >A 350-year repertoire of figures, even leaving aside the > need to learn three or four distinct styles of dancing to do them, > strikes me as an utter impossibility if one wishes to perform the > dances in a historic format (context? setting? I keep digging for a > suitable label for what I'm trying for. Style is not it.) Fashion? Manner? Spirit? Flavor? Flava? > But my tradeoff is that I want to emphasize other elements and am > doing it at the expense of the figure repertoire. I wonder if this > would mean MECD'ers would find it dull? It would depend on the MECDer. (That's obvious, of course, but what I mean is that this is a different enough activity from mainstream ECD that I don't think one's feeling about mainstream ECD will be closely correlated to whether you enjoy this or not. I think I would really dig it, but for a set of reasons that only partially overlap the reasons I enjoy a Playford Ball.) > My experience with the > occasional MECD'er who turns up at a workshop is that they are very, > very good at figures, both the ones they know and at picking up new > ones fast, but have a lot of trouble, or perhaps a lack of interest, > in adapting their style - notably, in turning off the "flow" of > figures from one into the other, which I do not think is not > particularly characteristic of this era of dance. I think for the recreational dancer, style is what you do without thinking about it. (The facility to change styles as appropriate is part of the qualitative difference between recreational and professional.) This makes it extremely difficult to change, because you need to bring it up to the level of consciousness and do something else. It's easier to do things in a different style if they're very different kinds of things. (Thus, morris teams that do a bunch of different traditions but they somehow all look the same, or at least show occasional problems like starting a Ducklington dance with a Bampton single step. There's enough contextual difference between morris and sword that the same guys have no problems with a different carriage and step for sword.) (Vintage dance seems to select for people who can manage this kind of change well; the same dancers will use different styling for 'teens foxtrot and thirties foxtrot.) Your environment -figures with the same names, the same kind of tunes, the fact that it _is_ ECD- is probably contextually similar enough that it gives the MECD person little help in changing style. > To summarize: I think that one cannot do (1) a huge variety of figures > in (2) constantly changing new combinations and (3) still work on > teaching much style. One of the three is going to get de-emphasized. > I'm making it variety; there appears to be an observation that in MECD > it's style. I am not offering any opinion on whether this is a valid > observation or not, so please don't transmute this into "Susan knocks > MECD for lack of style." This is something like "Fast, Cheap, Good: Choose any two." > Susan > (and if anyone's interested in becoming part of this project, I'm > looking at first (mostly) Sundays in NYC starting in January. And > it won't just be country dancing. Wanna sauteuse?) I wish I could (become part of this project, that is; I've already sauteused [and jeteused]). I'd also kind of like to try it out here, but I think having an existing Regency group that expects something different is almost a handicap in starting such a project. Please let us know how this goes; maybe I can piggyback on your work later. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 15:00:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:07:00 -0400 From: Tom Siess Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: a catch up To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000801c23c03$42378b20$13044443-AT- sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi there, Haven't heard from you in a while (excepting the ecd list which I don't usually read) and this is not regarding the birthday dirge! We have bought a lot and hope to be building by the end of Aug - or early Sept. It's all quite exciting and we look forward to having you visit the new house for New Years, or whenever! We leave on Fri. for Pinewoods and we hope, on our return, to find the building permit nearly "there" so we can get on with it. We'll keep you posted! Mr. Isaac had an adventure last week: he, somehow, got out on Thursday am and we didn't get him back until Sun. evening. We had put posters up on utility poles and fortunately, a very kind lady saw it and when she and her friend were out walking, they saw Isaac, went back to the poster, got our phone number, etc. He was quite scared, had lost about 3 lbs., had diarrhea for a few days but seems to have recovered now. It was awful for us! Lilli was beside herself, we were terrified that someone would steal him or hurt him, it rained and thundered and he hates that, it was awful. But, all seems well now. We hope never to have another adventure like that again, and I'm sure he feels the same way! So, how are you guys? How's the job, quilting, mountain climbling, cats, let us hear from you. Love, Anne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 15:35:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:35:33 -0400 From: Blank/DeVore Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3D4DAC35.3E43CBB3-AT- sprintmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_wjhsdgcxoz7AnweBOhwIYw)" References: --Boundary_(ID_wjhsdgcxoz7AnweBOhwIYw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Susan, Here's what the Library of Congress has to say about Holt, in agreement with your assessment: > How to dance the revived ancient dances. By Ardern Holt. > > Holt, Ardern. > > CREATED/PUBLISHED > London, H. Cox, 1907. > > SUMMARY > Holt begins his discussion with a history of "chorography" and the work of famed eighteenth-century dancing masters and choreographers Guillaume-Louis Pecour, > Pierre Beauchamps, and Raoul-Auger Feuillet. Several pages of dances written in the dance notation system devised by Feuillet are included. Holt's "reconstruction" > of the pavan includes the appropriate music from Thoinot Arbeau's 1588 manual, Orchesographie. For decades, the inclusion of the notation and music was > deceiving to many unsuspecting people who used Holt's manual to reconstruct dances for the Renaissance and Baroque. Holt's interpretations bear no resemblance > to the originals; however, they do clearly illuminate the romanticized aura that began to surround such dances as the minuet during the nineteenth century. Line > drawings and photographs enhance Holt's manual. > I've never found anything to associate Holt with Sharp. Also, I've seen Holt referred to as feminine. Holt seems to have been a scrivener who turned his/her hand to anything that might have turned a penny. A writer of short stories, a book on fancy dress for the ball, a collection of dances (morris) for children's parties. I've found no biographical information, only writings spanning the two decades from 1897 to 1907. Please let me know if you discover anything. Albert --Boundary_(ID_wjhsdgcxoz7AnweBOhwIYw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Susan,

Here's what the Library of Congress has to say about Holt, in agreement with your assessment: 

How to dance the revived ancient dances. By Ardern Holt.

Holt, Ardern. 

CREATED/PUBLISHED
London, H. Cox, 1907.

SUMMARY
Holt begins his discussion with a history of "chorography" and the work of famed eighteenth-century dancing masters and choreographers Guillaume-Louis Pecour,
Pierre Beauchamps, and Raoul-Auger Feuillet. Several pages of dances written in the dance notation system devised by Feuillet are included. Holt's "reconstruction"
of the pavan includes the appropriate music from Thoinot Arbeau's 1588 manual, Orchesographie. For decades, the inclusion of the notation and music was
deceiving to many unsuspecting people who used Holt's manual to reconstruct dances for the Renaissance and Baroque. Holt's interpretations bear no resemblance
to the originals; however, they do clearly illuminate the romanticized aura that began to surround such dances as the minuet during the nineteenth century. Line
drawings and photographs enhance Holt's manual.


I've never found anything to associate Holt with Sharp. Also, I've seen Holt referred to as feminine.

Holt seems to have been a scrivener who turned his/her hand to anything that might have turned a penny. A writer of short stories, a book on fancy dress for the ball, a collection of dances (morris) for children's parties. I've found no biographical information, only writings spanning the two decades from 1897 to 1907.

Please let me know if you discover anything.

Albert --Boundary_(ID_wjhsdgcxoz7AnweBOhwIYw)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 15:51:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: a catch up To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020804225059.99818.qmail-AT- web20701.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Tom Siess wrote: > Hi there, > > Haven't heard from you in a while (excepting the ecd list > which I don't > usually read) and this is not regarding the birthday > dirge! > > We have bought a lot and hope to be building by the end > of Aug - or early > Sept. It's all quite exciting and we look forward to > having you visit the > new house for New Years, or whenever! We leave on Fri. > for Pinewoods and we > hope, on our return, to find the building permit nearly > "there" so we can > get on with it. We'll keep you posted! > > Mr. Isaac had an adventure last week: he, somehow, got > out on Thursday am > and we didn't get him back until Sun. evening. We had > put posters up on > utility poles and fortunately, a very kind lady saw it > and when she and her > friend were out walking, they saw Isaac, went back to the > poster, got our > phone number, etc. He was quite scared, had lost about 3 > lbs., had diarrhea > for a few days but seems to have recovered now. It was > awful for us! Lilli > was beside herself, we were terrified that someone would > steal him or hurt > him, it rained and thundered and he hates that, it was > awful. But, all > seems well now. We hope never to have another adventure > like that again, > and I'm sure he feels the same way! > > So, how are you guys? How's the job, quilting, mountain > climbling, cats, > let us hear from you. > Love, > Anne > Dear Anne: Retired fiove years ago. Dot was the spinner, quilter (a bit) and knitter in the family and, as you probably know, passed away four years afo this month. With two artificial knees I am afraid my mountin climbing days are somewhat over though I do a bit of hiking now and then. Still traveling and painting watercolors as well as teaching Scottish Country dance and occassional teaching of English CD. Had heart by pass surgery in December but doing fine and expect to be back skiing this winter (actually got in eigh days of skiing late last winter though stuck to novice trails). Otherwise fine. Have been remodeling my house since Dot's death, loved her dearly but god she was a pack rat! Ben Stein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:53:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 21:42:55 -0400 From: "Linda M. Nelson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020803235107.2375.qmail-AT- web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Lyrl Ahern wrote: >... It's hard to see people floundering and >left to pick things up on the fly. Some version of floundering may be necessary to learning any completely new activity, although it's helpful to have a better option available. A class is good, *if* people will come. (I think earlier discussions on this list pointed out that those who really need the classes are unlikely to attend.) The best bet i've seen is good modelling: that is, the experienced dancers are (hopefully) setting the example for others to follow... nothing can substitute for that, in any case... more is "caught" than "taught". It's also possible, if not overdone, for a dance leader to put in one or two small style points per evening. Not much and perhaps not very noticeable, but if the same group attends for a while, the effect can be cumulative. Just my two cents worth - Linda ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:59:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 21:59:18 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: a catch up To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000801c23c23$b5afbb70$a5c4c943-AT- g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It's reassuring to know that the person to whom Anne's post was directed recognized himself! Nice to hear your news, Anne. Sorry Howard and I won't be at Pinewoods this year. Pat Ruggiero (and Howard Markham) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:07:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:09:14 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: a catch up To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <000801c23c23$b5afbb70$a5c4c943-AT- g9tfz> >It's reassuring to know that the person to whom Anne's post was directed >recognized himself! > >Nice to hear your news, Anne. Sorry Howard and I won't be at Pinewoods this >year. > >Pat Ruggiero >(and Howard Markham) LOL -- I hope Anne was talking to me -- I sent her a long email in response! I'm sorry I won't be at Pinewoods this year too. It's been a few years due to employment issues. Hope to get back on track soon with a good combination of paycheck and vacation time. Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:32:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020805053221.13518.qmail-AT- web20004.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alan Winston wrote: > ...I had pretty good results in Berkeley the other night with a > bunch of newcomers and double figure eights, mirror heys, and then > heys for three. We crashed and burned in a dance with heys for > four, but it was going really well up 'til then.) Interestingly, most contra dancers would have trouble with anything other than a four person hey. I was taught that you keep passing alternate sholders until you come out on the end, turn toward the shoulder that you came out with, come back in with the same shoulder and make a big enough loop at the end that you don't crash into the next person coming at you. This instruction works no matter how many people are in the hey. Once you learn the formation, a simple "Hey" from the caller works for any number of people. > ...the ability to tell left from right... Granted, it helps, but I've had some favorite partners who've had trouble with this one. I just have to give them extra directional attention if they're having trouble. I particularly remember Shrewsbury Lasses when Reel Nutmeg turned it into a duple-minor for as many as will in the middle of one of our NEFFA suites. It started out as a three couple set as it is usually done, then we added couples. I think the whole group had to work harder than usual on that dance but my partner had particular problems. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 00:00:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:59:23 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <004e01c23c4d$a1b77b60$b02a4b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020805053221.13518.qmail-AT- web20004.mail.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Peterson <> Not any more, I suspect; there's at least one, maybe two "double contras" making the rounds, where two contra-lines (four columns total) merge and do a hey for eight across the hall. To add to the fun, one alternates between positions every time through. The folks at our local contra picked it up without fuss. Other parts of the dance were tougher, really. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 04:06:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:05:07 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT (This is starting to drift seriously off-topic, but I plead that the list-owner is encouraging me!) Alan writes: >I think this is a fabulous project, and I wish I could participate. (NYC is a >little far from SF to make that likely.) When I lead a Regency ball, I'm >keenly conscious of the anomalousness of my position. (If it were a public >ball at Bath there'd be a master of ceremonies, but you wouldn't have a >_caller_, and you certainly wouldn't at a private event (like Mr. Bingley's >ball at Netherfield).) We usually come up with some rationale to excuse my >presence. I think Wilson mentions the use of floor managers, whose apparent function is to assist the Master of the Ceremonies in seeing that thing go smoothly. That isn't the term he uses, but I don't have time right this sec to go look it up. The model I am using is one of Wilson's public assemblies, not a ball in a private home (funny, no one I know has a ballroom big enough for this...) And you think *you* have a problem....I'm female! Gack. Mistress of the Ceremonies is even worse than caller. :) I've thought about bringing in an experienced ball preceptor to take the role, but this creates the significant danger that the event will be perceived as *his* event (he being prominent for putting on balls and such), and I would sort of like to get credit for my project. (Mine! Mine!) This is a typical problem for women doing historical dance, alas; I'll have to deal with it over and over. >So you won't be doing the true lover's knot? Darn. (You get the idea >of which were commonly used by comparing the figures in published >dances to the figures in, eg, Wilson?) Yes. And even Wilson almost never uses his own fancy figures - I think I've only actually seen the knot once or twice. Non-Wilson manuals are even more limited in repertoire. I wish Keller would become interested in doing a figure database for early 19thc English manuals as he did for Playford and American ones; it's a needed project but I find it totally uninspiring. I'm doing figure databasing for waltz country dances, but that's quite enough for me. (And waltz c.d.'s are a very interesting problem. It's not clear to me that they are properly done with waltz steps, or even in triple time for that matter. And won't *that* throw the Duke of Kent's Waltzers into a tailspin! Pardon me while I ooze raw research theories here.) >> dances in a historic format (context? setting? I keep digging for a >> suitable label for what I'm trying for. Style is not it.) > >Fashion? Manner? Spirit? Flavor? Flava? Manner, perhaps. >It would depend on the MECDer. (That's obvious, of course, but what I >mean is that this is a different enough activity from mainstream ECD >that I don't think one's feeling about mainstream ECD will be closely >correlated to whether you enjoy this or not. I think I would really >dig it, but for a set of reasons that only partially overlap the >reasons I enjoy a Playford Ball.) I've had complaints before that boil down in essence to "this isn't MECD." Which is of course inarguable. It's not intended to be. It just strikes me as an unfair basis for complaint, like complaining that baseball isn't football. >I think for the recreational dancer, style is what you do without thinking >about it. (The facility to change styles as appropriate is part of the >qualitative difference between recreational and professional.) This makes it >extremely difficult to change, because you need to bring it up to the level of >consciousness and do something else. It's easier to do things in a different >style if they're very different kinds of things. (Thus, morris teams that do a >[snip] >sword.) (Vintage dance seems to select for people who can manage this kind of >change well; the same dancers will use different styling for 'teens foxtrot and >thirties foxtrot.) Your environment -figures with the same names, the same >kind of tunes, the fact that it _is_ ECD- is probably contextually similar >enough that it gives the MECD person little help in changing style. Hmm, perhaps, and I do have a similar problem when I do MECD; I keep shifting between historic styles, none of which precisely match MECD style. I can't seem to get MECD into my head as a separate style; the range of the dances undermines me. I've also seen vintage dancers who have trouble style-shifting, most often coming in from modern ballroom and bringing its mannerisms along, and there's at least one who comes to mind who is *always* dancing the same sort of tangolike dance, no matter what dance he is actually doing. He's a superb dancer and leader, so he's fun to dance with regardless, but it's always one dance. I can't figure out exactly what its roots are - maybe Argentine tango. And of course the tendency of vintage dancers (self included) to munge their 1890's waltzing into 1860's waltzing is notorious - once you get spinning the sensation is so similar it's easy to just shift your feet into the other, and most of us learned 1860's first, and much more intensely than 1890's, so it becomes the default. >I wish I could (become part of this project, that is; I've already >sauteused [and jeteused]). I'd also kind of like to try it out here, >but I think having an existing Regency group that expects something >different is almost a handicap in starting such a project. Please let >us know how this goes; maybe I can piggyback on your work later. I think having an existing Regency group doing what is in effect MECD is probably a big handicap - you have to get people to change what they are doing within the same context. Tough nut to crack, especially since they presumably *like* what they're doing. I'm starting to cautiously experiment with the dances at conventions, but only ones with no prior Regency tradition - people don't know enough in general to realize that what they are doing is not what John teaches. (I don't try for steps, just different dances.) This would probably send John into conniptions. In your position I think I would look into doing such a project using a different group of dancers and then attempt to bring in the ones who already do the Regency events later, so there will be some social pressure to adopt the correct style/format/manner/whaddevuh. I envy you the concentration of dancers there, though. Maybe I'll get a chance to dance while I'm out there in a few weeks - anything going on over Labor Day weekend? The $10,000 question: in what rhythm did you learn the sauteuse, and do you know whose reconstruction it is? The question is, is it a duple or triple time dance? (step-step-step or quick-quick-slow for each demi-tour?) This is one I've been spending much thought on lately and arguing with other reconstructors on. And if I haven't drifted inexcusably off-topic, how exactly did you perform the jete' waltz? Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 04:14:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 03:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKXBR5OYTKHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020803235107.2375.qmail-AT- web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Linda wrote: > Lyrl Ahern wrote: > >... It's hard to see people floundering and > >left to pick things up on the fly. > Some version of floundering may be necessary to learning any > completely new activity, although it's helpful to have a better > option available. Yes. A problem is that a lot of people don't want to be seen floundering, and if they aren't good enough at something right away, won't keep on going. (Contra dances manage somewhat better at getting people good enough right away. "Good enough" isn't the same as "good"; it means good enough to have fun. This is partly because of the evolution of the modern contra; when every dance has a partner swing in it, that part of the dance will soon seem familiar to the newcomer, and it provides a place to get your bearings and try to remember what to do next. Also, modern contras have a lot of figures where you're touching somebody, who can lead to some extent: circles, promenades, box the gnat, down the hall four in line, assisted cast off, courtesy turn, etc. I've seen experienced contra dancers have real difficulty with a half figure eight. And also, the heels-down contra style is more akin to the way most people walk normally, and contra dancers never get asked to skip or skip-change or rant or step-hop. They never have to think which way they'd fall if they were shot.) Some people are more willing to flounder when surrounded by other flounderers, and classes are useful for them. (My excellent-couple-dancer girlfriend was more comfortable at the local dance that has quite a few perpetual beginners because floundering didn't stand out than she was at the idea of going to the local dance with a high percentage of good dancers, even if it'd be easier to learn when everybody else was doing it right.) >A class is good, *if* people will come. (I think > earlier discussions on this list pointed out that those who really > need the classes are unlikely to attend.) At least once they've been to regular dances. If the gateway they'd encountered first was a class, they might go to class. >The best bet i've seen is > good modelling: that is, the experienced dancers are (hopefully) > setting the example for others to follow... nothing can substitute > for that, in any case... more is "caught" than "taught". > It's also > possible, if not overdone, for a dance leader to put in one or two > small style points per evening. Not much and perhaps not very > noticeable, but if the same group attends for a while, the effect can > be cumulative. Provided that they're _different_ style points. I see the "spaghetti arms" style point show up a lot, and most others not so much. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 04:31:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 04:17:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKXCCZIYM6HOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susan wrote: > I think Wilson mentions the use of floor managers, whose apparent > function is to assist the Master of the Ceremonies in seeing that > thing go smoothly. That isn't the term he uses, but I don't have time > right this sec to go look it up. The model I am using is one of > Wilson's public assemblies, not a ball in a private home (funny, no > one I know has a ballroom big enough for this...) I really have to sit down and read through Wilson some time. Every time I dip in I find some astonishing thing. > And you think *you* have a problem....I'm female! Gack. Mistress of > the Ceremonies is even worse than caller. :) I've thought about > bringing in an experienced ball preceptor to take the role, but this > creates the significant danger that the event will be perceived as > *his* event (he being prominent for putting on balls and such), and I > would sort of like to get credit for my project. (Mine! Mine!) This > is a typical problem for women doing historical dance, alas; I'll have > to deal with it over and over. And I don't suppose you want to do drag. (Viz: Georgette Heyer's _The Masqueraders_, a very entertaining drag comedy/romance/historical, although it's Georgian rather than Regency.) > >So you won't be doing the true lover's knot? Darn. (You get the idea > >of which were commonly used by comparing the figures in published > >dances to the figures in, eg, Wilson?) > Yes. And even Wilson almost never uses his own fancy figures - I > think I've only actually seen the knot once or twice. A version of it appears in John Hertz's "Want of Management", the 96-bar triple-minor for those who think "Mutual Promises" (a 64-bar triple minor) isn't long and complicated enough. (If I ever had any idea of calling it in MECD circles, which I don't, mercy to musicians would stay my hand.) >Non-Wilson > manuals are even more limited in repertoire. I wish Keller would > become interested in doing a figure database for early 19thc English > manuals as he did for Playford and American ones; it's a needed > project but I find it totally uninspiring. I'm doing figure > databasing for waltz country dances, but that's quite enough for > me. (And waltz c.d.'s are a very interesting problem. It's not > clear to me that they are properly done with waltz steps, or even > in triple time for that matter. And won't *that* throw the > Duke of Kent's Waltzers into a tailspin! Pardon me while I ooze > raw research theories here.) Okay, I've heard the idea that "waltz" at one time meant any circulating ballroom-hold dance, but not recently. I don't know what the original Draper's Garden tune sounded like - or what time signature it was in - but Northdown Waltz is definitely a triple-time dance, even if the original has poussettes rather than ballroom-position waltz. So, basically, I'd like to hear more > And of course the tendency of vintage dancers (self included) to munge > their 1890's waltzing into 1860's waltzing is notorious - once you get > spinning the sensation is so similar it's easy to just shift your feet > into the other, and most of us learned 1860's first, and much more > intensely than 1890's, so it becomes the default. I really don't know the difference once ballroom position comes into play. > In your position I think I would look into doing such a project using > a different group of dancers and then attempt to bring in the ones who > already do the Regency events later, so there will be some social > pressure to adopt the correct style/format/manner/whaddevuh. I envy > you the concentration of dancers there, though. Maybe I'll get a > chance to dance while I'm out there in a few weeks - anything going on > over Labor Day weekend? Not Regency-wise. There's supposed to be some chance of my leading a second Regency dance session at the WorldCon ("second" to John's, that is) and if I do it'll have live music and feature my repertoire rather than his. > The $10,000 question: in what rhythm did you learn the sauteuse, and > do you know whose reconstruction it is? The question is, is it a > duple or triple time dance? (step-step-step or quick-quick-slow for > each demi-tour?) This is one I've been spending much thought on > lately and arguing with other reconstructors on. I've only done the waltz sauteuse; Stan Isaacs taught it and said it was Richard Powers' reconstruction (and similarly for the jeteuse). I seem to remember step-step-step, but it's been several years. (We several times had Stan come to the February Regency dance party (with a Valentine's theme) and teach that waltz sequence; in more recent years it's fallen just before the Cyprians' Ball and it's seemed a good idea to use the whole evening to review the dances for that.) > And if I haven't drifted inexcusably off-topic, how exactly did you > perform the jete' waltz? It seems to me to have involved some hopping and kicking - I never got comfortable enough with it to find it very plausible. This is not the kind of off-topicness I want to quash. Admittedly, the country dance connection resembles the reason a raven is like a writing desk (because Poe wrote on both), but we're still in the period ballroom, so I'll take it. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 04:40:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:47:05 -0400 From: Tom Siess Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Apology To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <001201c23c75$d2d96d20$13044443-AT- sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sorry - a posting for Mary Beth Goodman inadvertantly got sent to the whole list. I'm sure that few of you are interested in our house building plans or our dog's adventure. Anne Siess ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:56:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:56:25 -0400 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I agree with most of your ruminations. Here is how I address some of these in my attempt to make the ECD accessible to a wider audience. 1) Dances that people went to dancing school to learn how to do I feel that we often under-estimate the capability of the common people to encompass and experience some joy in dancing some of this repertoire even without the schooling required to do them more perfectly. 2) Dances that people practiced extensively to perform for others (whether or not the small-set Playford dances were used like Italian court dances in that regard, certainly Bray's theatrical afterpieces fall in this category) Again, I have found that with the skill that many of today's callers bring to the instruction of these dances, one can find that some portion of these are fun to dance even when there is no audience and when the quality is below what anyone would want to see. 3) Dances that don't fit the music clearly because a) Mr. Sharp didn't like the music that came with it and attached other music ("Hit and Miss", for example) or b) we don't do the stepping that _made_ it fit the music ("Draper's Maggot") or c) we don't play it as it was meant to be played I try to avoid all such dances. Either I don't do them at all or I do them to the original intended tune and I strive to play the music on instruments and in a manner that gives meaning to the choreography. 4) Dances that, taken cumulatively, require us to know 350 years' worth of different figures, some of which only show up in a handful of dances I tend to confine the repertoire at my dances to a particular time-frame (no more than 50-60 years) rather than to span the 350 years of evolution in ECD. The exceptions are dances that I deem to fit within the style and repertoire of the evening no matter what the date of authorship. Dances such as Levi Jackson, Margaret's Waltz, Bare Necessities, Walpole Cottage, etc... I would never mix in with my Playford repertoire, but I am likely to do these as oddities during an evening of contra. 5) Dances that blithely expect us to do closed-couple waltz ("Heidenroslein", "Margaret's Waltz", modern interpretation of "Northdown Waltz") or polka (every swing-and-change dance) whether or not we know it I don't do these except perhaps in a contra setting. 6) Dances that fall to pieces if you turn the wrong way or get the timing wrong I do many of these, but I spend some time teaching the dancers how NOT to fall apart. For example, I try to make it clear where they should be at the end of the dance and ready to start again with the next couple, I emphasize that whether they pass by the right or the left, the object is to end on the other side, and if there are moments where they spend time with their partners, I point these out as times to regroup, since most dancers can spot the familiar face of their partner from some distance away.... 7) Dances whose choreographers assume that in addition to the entire ECD lexicon we're also on top of the contra and square dance lexicon as well ("Levi Jackson", my own "MM") Many of my dancers are familiar with basic contra/square figures. If saying Grand Squares will mean something to 75% of the people in the hall, I use it (e.g., in Hunsdon House) and then they can assist me in teaching the figure to the other 25%. Often a room full of people will instantly respond to dos-a-dos but turn to you in bafflement if you say back-to-back. As the evening wears on I can familiarize them with the Playford lingo, but my first objective is to get them hooked on how fun the dances are. Authenticity in terminology etc... take a back-seat unless I am teaching a "workshop." 8) Easy, simple, vigorous dances, some of which the experienced dancers refuse to do. (If you doubt that last, think "rant".) Not all the simple dances are vigorous and there are some "vigorous" dances that need not be done vigorously. Right now I am thinking of Trip to Paris. I teach the B as: 1s cross, cast down one, cross, cast up one,... (which can be done with bad knees, conservation of energy, and elegant style) and then observe that some athletic dancers like to take advantage of my unwillingness to police the hall, by skipping whither they will during this portion of the dance. (I do insist they understand when the music says to turn single and be in position to do this all together). I find that those who enjoy a graceful dance and shun the active ones can participate without fear. This example doesn't treat the issue of rants - I seldom do these since they are more typical of a period I rarely include in my evenings. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:07:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:07:38 +1000 From: Earthly Delights Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: New Dance Discussion Board To: "ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I found an interesting dance discussion board that only started a few days ago - http://www.voy.com/101083/. English Country Dance, Contra, Australian Bush Dance, Vintage and more.. Seems a great idea if you don't want to receive any more emails! Cheers, Aylwen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:26:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:26:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020806012602.45758.qmail-AT- web20007.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Campbell Kaynor wrote: > 5) Dances that blithely expect us to do closed-couple waltz > ("Heidenroslein", "Margaret's Waltz", modern interpretation of > "Northdown Waltz") or polka > > (every swing-and-change dance) whether or not we know it > > I don't do these except perhaps in a contra setting. Quite frankly, in my experience English dancers are more likely to be able to do these dances than contra dancers. Many Contra dancers do not know how to do a turning waltz. > 7) Dances whose choreographers assume that in addition to the > entire ECD lexicon we're also on top of the contra and square dance > lexicon as well > ("Levi Jackson", my own "MM") > > Many of my dancers are familiar with basic contra/square figures. > If saying Grand Squares will mean something to 75% of the people in > the hall, I use it (e.g., in Hunsdon House) and then they can assist > me in teaching the figure to the other 25%. Often a room full of > people will instantly respond to dos-a-dos but turn to you in > bafflement if you say back-to-back. Grand Square seems to baffle most people around here, even if the caller takes considerable time to teach it. I happen to enjoy squares when called well, but often in contra settings the teaching isn't very good and the calling is often worse. Guess I've been spoiled by Ralph Sweet, who does great singing squares, and Bob Dalsemer, not to mention Otto Wood, for the old timers among us. There's nothing worse than someone who can't sing trying to do singing squares or calling it like they would a contra. It just doesn't feel like the same dance. > 8) Easy, simple, vigorous dances, some of which the experienced > dancers refuse to do. (If you doubt that last, think "rant".) I find it interesting that many people find the rant more difficult as they get older, but the people who do Finnish polka at Scandinavian dances (which I find to be a _very_ similar step) tend to be the old timers. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:55:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:54:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oh, I get it now To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020806015458.95836.qmail-AT- web20005.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Linda wrote: > > > Lyrl Ahern wrote: > > > >... It's hard to see people floundering and > > >left to pick things up on the fly. > > > Some version of floundering may be necessary to learning any > > completely new activity, although it's helpful to have a better > > option available. > > Yes. A problem is that a lot of people don't want to be seen > floundering, and if they aren't good enough at something right away, > won't keep on going. I heard a comment some time ago that one of the problems with getting men in our general population to dance is that they are used to being competent at sports (especially the ones that they started learning when they were 6-8 years old) and when they try dancing they aren't instantly good at it. Then they aren't willing to try it a second time. OTOH, I've known people who started dancing to become better at sports, and they still dance but don't do sports any more. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:52:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 00:50:56 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: U. City Birthday Song To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <005101c23d0d$3c87d800$da2a4b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks: We've established, through links on another list, that the Happy Volga Boatmen Birthday Song dates back at least to 1983-1984, when the author of the filk faq first heard it. But my original queryer, John Uhlemann, recalls it as being considerably older than that. So -- when did *you* first run across it? Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 23:11:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 23:11:15 -0700 From: Bill Richard Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020805230708.00b5c7c0-AT- pop.queernet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul Stamler writes, in a message sent 12:50 AM 8/6/02 -0500: >Hi folks: > >We've established, through links on another list, that the Happy Volga >Boatmen Birthday Song dates back at least to 1983-1984, when the author of >the filk faq first heard it. But my original queryer, John Uhlemann, recalls >it as being considerably older than that. So -- when did *you* first run >across it? This subject came up several years ago on the Morris Dancing Discussion List. At that time my friend Kayta, who is an old time SCA member wrote the following: --begin quote-- >From: CarolynKayta Barrows >Subject: Re: Mongolian Birthday Chant? The "Mongolian Birthday Song" was written in the mid '70s by Fannish SCA folk who knew about "The Dark Horde", an 'SCA-spinoff' group involving Mongols and Robert Lynn Asprin, now a Science fiction writer. I first heard it, in San Diego, with the following three verses: Death, destruction, and despair, People dying everywhere, etc (ALWAYS the first verse, always 'death' not 'doom', from the phrase 'death and destruction') May the candles on your cake, Burn like cities in our wake, etc (usually the second verse, still Mongol) (I can never remember if it's cities burning like candles or candles burning like cities, but I think I got the order right)) Now that you're the age you are, Your demise cannot be far, etc (usually the third verse) While this song was new, a fourth verse was added, the 'Gregory of York' verse, allegedly about one of the SCA fighters in San Diego: Make the women wail and weep, slay them all but SPARE THE SHEEP! etc (always sung fourth as our add-on, especially around Gregory) It amazed us when we found out how far the song had spread, probably thru Science Fiction Fandom. I remember someone saying he had heard some bikers at a Denny's singing it. He had the courage to ask them where the had heard it, and they didn't know. They only knew the first three verses, he said. We knew of several by then, but I don't remember any but the first four. --end quote-- -- Bill Richard White Rat's (Experimental) Morris http://www.whiterats.org San Francisco, CA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 23:27:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:28:33 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <005101c23d0d$3c87d800$da2a4b0c-AT- paulstam> At 12:50 AM -0500 8/6/02, Paul Stamler wrote: >So -- when did *you* first run >across it? Back in Girl Scout camp in the early 1950s. -- Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 23:49:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 23:48:36 -0700 From: Pat Corvini Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: I still don't get it (how to learn style) To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000101c23d15$610f85d0$eb69c043-AT- PC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan wrote, parenthetically, > if you haven't taken other dance > classes and haven't learned how to learn style, I found that comment hugely intriguing. Can you elaborate on "how to learn style" as a learnable skill? Apart from explicit teaching by various callers [which works best, for me, as words + demo of desired effect + contrasting demo of undesired effect] I'd say I've learned something about style (a) by imitation, and (b) from advice offered by partners, either verbally or with a physical lead. But my sense is still that it's easier to give and get help (during a dance, by glance or word or gesture or example) on figures, than it is to give and get help on style. Hoping for flood of counterexamples, Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 03:27:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 03:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: I still don't get it (how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKYOF8OA30HOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Alan wrote, parenthetically, > > if you haven't taken other dance > > classes and haven't learned how to learn style, > I found that comment hugely intriguing. Can you elaborate > on "how to learn style" as a learnable skill? Uh, no. (I hope somebody out there can. This is the kind of topic Victoria Bestock often has something good to say on. I don't claim any skill at this myself.) I think it _is_ a skill, or a talent, or something, which some people have. There are more opportunities to see this on display at a vintage week than at an English dance week. (Not to valorize vintage dancers beyond reason; there are plenty of not-very-good vintage dancers; just that there are more significant style changes over either the course of a hundred years or in the difference between, say, foxtrot and tango.) (I once watched Angela Amarillis, Richard Powers' demo partner, do this in a remarkable way. He'd scheduled her to co-lead the Charleston session without finding out whether she'd ever done the Charleston, which she hadn't. Luckily they figured out this before the class started, and in the break before that session, she learned steps _and_ style. I was watching in amazement. Richard only discussed steps, but she just absorbed by observation and imitation how to hold the body and how much to wiggle and how high to kick, and then demoed the women's part for the class as though she'd been doing it all her life. But thinking about it, it seems any stage dancer needs to have this skill, so maybe it's something they teach in performance dance programs.) Me, if I look at somebody doing something, I can relatively well analyze _what_ they're doing, and I may be able to take that away and practice it, but I have a lot of trouble analyzing and reproducing what it is that makes it look distinctively the way it does. (I speculate that some people can imitate without conscious analysis, or at least without laborious analysis. The annoying mime who caricatures the people walking down the street clearly has this skill. If you can just see it and then do it, or see it and think about how it feels and then do it.) > Apart from explicit teaching by various callers [which > works best, for me, as words + demo of desired effect + > contrasting demo of undesired effect] I'd say I've learned > something about style (a) by imitation, and (b) from advice > offered by partners, either verbally or with a physical lead. I need words, demo, coaching, more words, my own words, and practice time. (And sometimes I discover physical limitations that keep me from doing it well; before I got physical therapy for my knee issues and starting stretching fairly regularly, I really wasn't loose enough to tango well. Not that I tango well now, but at least the theoretical possibility is there.) > But my sense is still that it's easier to give and get help > (during a dance, by glance or word or gesture or example) > on figures, than it is to give and get help on style. I agree with this, and I think there are a bunch of reasons. (A major one is that people who need help with figures know they need help and are looking for it.) > Hoping for flood of counterexamples Not from me. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 09:36:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 12:35:56 -0400 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: I still don't get it (how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan said: I need words, demo, coaching, more words, my own words, and practice time.... One other thing to add - I have often found that the essence of a style escapes me until I am thrust into the midst of a group in which everyone (except me) is employing that style. Then through something other than direct observation and explicit instruction - I feel like it's a kind of osmosis - delivers to my soul an aspect that had proved elusive in other settings. I have experienced this both in dance and music and imagine that it is common to all the arts. A few examples: 1) No one could make my fiddling sound Irish until I spent time in "sessions" surrounded by real irish musicians. 2) Swedish music will never sound like it does in the town it comes from until you have been there, in the midst of their own indigenous spelmanslag and "FELT" the music as opposed to simply "HEARING" it on LPs of that spelmanslag. Once I am back home and removed from the context, I can never recapture the full extent of the style, but I can often visualize/hear what it should be and can continue to strive for it. I have had similar experiences in dance; 1) I only began to feel really at one with the Scandinavian dances at around 5AM on the second day of continuous dancing at various Spelmanstama. 2) Morris figures and steps I was able to learn at CDSS workshops, but the fine points of style and feel of the dances only became unambiguous in the Morris side situation. This is in part because the side has its own style that builds by consensus independently of the foreman and the practised features. Workshops tend not to have enough continuity to develope style beyond the broad, general, and supperficial manifestations. Cammy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:04:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 12:04:19 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ecd list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT They used to sing it in my dorm, and I graduated in 1980. --Mary Railing On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Paul Stamler wrote: > Hi folks: > > We've established, through links on another list, that the Happy Volga > Boatmen Birthday Song dates back at least to 1983-1984, when the author of > the filk faq first heard it. But my original queryer, John Uhlemann, recalls > it as being considerably older than that. So -- when did *you* first run > across it? > > Peace, > Paul > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:09:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:09:23 -0400 From: Deb Karl Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3D5002C2.3C192166-AT- wi.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Girl Scout Camp. 1960's Mary Railing wrote: > > They used to sing it in my dorm, and I graduated in 1980. > > --Mary Railing > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Paul Stamler wrote: > > > Hi folks: > > > > We've established, through links on another list, that the Happy Volga > > Boatmen Birthday Song dates back at least to 1983-1984, when the author of > > the filk faq first heard it. But my original queryer, John Uhlemann, recalls > > it as being considerably older than that. So -- when did *you* first run > > across it? > > > > Peace, > > Paul > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:30:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 12:30:21 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It strikes me as possible that the Horde invented their own *version* of the song. The lyrics I remember learning in my dorm before I heard the song in the SCA differed significantly from those given below. (I joined the SCA in the Midrealm while Robert Asprin was still active, and I never got the idea that the song was invented by him). Isn't this getting rather far away from ECD? --Mary Railing On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Bill Richard wrote: > Paul Stamler writes, in a message sent 12:50 AM 8/6/02 -0500: > >Hi folks: > > > >We've established, through links on another list, that the Happy Volga > >Boatmen Birthday Song dates back at least to 1983-1984, when the author of > >the filk faq first heard it. But my original queryer, John Uhlemann, recalls > >it as being considerably older than that. So -- when did *you* first run > >across it? > > This subject came up several years ago on the Morris Dancing Discussion > List. At that time my friend Kayta, who is an old time SCA member wrote the > following: > > --begin quote-- > > >From: CarolynKayta Barrows > >Subject: Re: Mongolian Birthday Chant? > > The "Mongolian Birthday Song" was written in the mid '70s by Fannish SCA > folk who knew about "The Dark Horde", an 'SCA-spinoff' group involving > Mongols and Robert Lynn Asprin, now a Science fiction writer. I first > heard it, in San Diego, with the following three verses: > > Death, destruction, and despair, > People dying everywhere, > etc > (ALWAYS the first verse, always 'death' not 'doom', from the phrase 'death > and destruction') > > May the candles on your cake, > Burn like cities in our wake, > etc > (usually the second verse, still Mongol) > (I can never remember if it's cities burning like candles or candles > burning like cities, but I think I got the order right)) > > Now that you're the age you are, > Your demise cannot be far, > etc > (usually the third verse) > > While this song was new, a fourth verse was added, the 'Gregory of York' > verse, allegedly about one of the SCA fighters in San Diego: > > Make the women wail and weep, > slay them all but SPARE THE SHEEP! > etc > (always sung fourth as our add-on, especially around Gregory) > > It amazed us when we found out how far the song had spread, probably thru > Science Fiction Fandom. I remember someone saying he had heard some bikers > at a Denny's singing it. He had the courage to ask them where the had > heard it, and they didn't know. They only knew the first three verses, he > said. We knew of several by then, but I don't remember any but the first > four. > > --end quote-- > > -- > Bill Richard > White Rat's (Experimental) Morris http://www.whiterats.org > San Francisco, CA > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:49:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:52:20 -0400 From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020806.145306.-79917.10.dcculb-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 12:04:19 -0500 (EST) Mary Railing writes: > They used to sing it in my dorm, and I graduated in 1980. > > --Mary Railing I have the feeling that this goes way back, and probably has origins in the same place as parodies I remember from my childhood, like "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school..." The comedian Bill Cosby had an interesting take on this--he suggested that there's some guy out there who's 2000 years old but looks like a kid, and goes all over the country teaching kids this stuff. Considering how many of these songs we all seem to know, he might have a point. :-) Dawn Culbertson (Baltimore, MD) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:42:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:37:56 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Pourparler - the grand exchange To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <200208061640_MC3-1-A1D-ABAA-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Some of you may be aware of the existence of Pourparler - the informal annual meeting of those involved in the teaching and sharing of folk, square, contra, country dancing in schools and/or in the community. This year the event is happening at the Folklore Village in Dodgeville, Wisconsin from October 10 - 13. Sharing dances, discussing relevant topics, alerting to resources, networking etc. Folks from all parts of the country have participated in the past and will again. If anyone on this list is interested in receiving an electronic registration form, please send me an email. _-AT- _ {)/' /\ /\_._,<_/ ' \ /_\ /> /< Hanny ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:15:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:15:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: [fwd from Antony Heywood] Pat Shaw, a celebration To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KKZD4GNQQMHOV13H-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-path: Received: from smtp1.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (SMTP1.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [134.79.18.82]) by SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V6.0-025 #37499) with ESMTP id <01KKXQUA9JTEHOWY7C-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ORCPT WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.smtp1.slac.stanford.edu by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) id <0H0D00901V86VW-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu> for WINSTON-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu (ORCPT WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from directory-daemon.smtp1.slac.stanford.edu by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) id <0H0D00901V86VV-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu> for WINSTON-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu (ORCPT WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu (SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [134.79.33.14]) by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) with SMTP id <0H0D005QGV86JT-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu> for WINSTON-AT- SLAC.Stanford.EDU; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.SLAC.Stanford.EDU by ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu (MX V4.2 AXP) with SMTP; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.smtp1.slac.stanford.edu by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) id <0H0D00901V81VE-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu> for owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eowyn.vianetworks.nl (eowyn.vianetworks.nl [212.61.25.227]) by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) with ESMTP id <0H0D0086WV80OO-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu> for owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tanta (pm17d272.iae.nl [212.61.5.18]) by eowyn.vianetworks.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F84820FDA for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:26:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:24:20 +0200 From: Antony Heywood Subject: Pat Shaw -- a Celebration To: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-to: antony-AT- heywood.nl Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Original-recipient: rfc822;WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Pat Shaw was a frequent visitor to the Netherlands as shown by his publications "New Wine in Old Bottles" and "Holland as seen in the English Country Dance" (See also my articles on Pat Shaw in Holland in the "EFDSS Members' Quarterly Newsletter" summer 2002 and in "Set and Turn Single"). On the occasion of the 25th anniversary of his untimely death, there will be a celebration of his life and work in Eindhoven, the Netherlands. On Saturday November 16 there will be workshops, a song session, an exhibition and a ball. The band is the famous Assembly Players from Glasgow and the callers are Nicolas Broadbridge and Antony Heywood. In the afternoon two parallel workshops will take dancers through dances from the ball programme or enable them to dance some of the more challenging Pat Shaw dances. In the middle of the afternoon, we will be singing some of the songs and rounds taught us by Pat Shaw during the more than 25 Christmas Courses which he led. The programme for the ball (which includes a recently rediscovered Pat Shaw dance "La Ronde de L'Amour") has been published on the NVS website www.nvs-dance.nl and those who register will receive a booklet with brief dance descriptions. This and the opportunity to dance some of the dances in the workshops should enable us to get through the evening smoothly with only minimal reminders or walk-throughs. The Assembly Players will be releasing TWO new CDs of music by Pat Shaw (including first recordings of many dances including "La Ronde de l'Amour") during the autumn. One of these recordings will be launched at the day in Eindhoven, the other will appear three weeks earlier at a Pat Shaw dance in London. The exhibition will include Pat Shaw memorabilia and the opportunity to listen to recordings of Pat Shaw singing and teaching. Full details of prices and how to register for this event will appear on the NVS website www.nvs-dance.nl at the end of August. Maximum numbers may soon be reached so early booking is advised. Antony Heywood Eindhoven, The Netherlands =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 22:04:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 00:02:44 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <000901c23dcf$aab04ac0$e02b4b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Railing <> Getting? It *started* far away -- although, interestingly, it converged briefly, sort of, when it developed that the song was popular among our morris-dancing cousins. But in the process of being off-topic, we've shed valuable light on the folk custom I've been researching. Indeed, a member of this group has given the oldest cite unearthed thus far. And the entries keep pouring in... Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:59:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:52:54 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020807.075304.-789407.4.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Girl Scout Camp in the 50's? Girl Scout Camp in the 60's? Morris dancers? The Dark Horde? All fingers point to... Helen Osborne Storrow!! Early leader of the American Girl Scout movement, owner of the property that is now Pinewoods Camp (originally Pine Tree Camp, Girl Scout training camp), well-known philanthropist (Storrow Drive in Boston, etc.), world traveler. I knew the old gal had a wild and crazy streak in her. Gene Murrow Candidate for the first Stephen D. Corrsin endowed lecture series in speculative folk history honoring Cecil Sharp. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:18:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:20:44 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807.075304.-789407.4.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> At 7:52 AM -0400 8/7/02, Gene Murrow wrote: >Girl Scout Camp in the 50's? Girl Scout Camp in the 60's? Morris >dancers? The Dark Horde? > >All fingers point to... Helen Osborne Storrow!! Early leader of the >American Girl Scout movement, owner of the property that is now Pinewoods >Camp (originally Pine Tree Camp, Girl Scout training camp), well-known >philanthropist (Storrow Drive in Boston, etc.), world traveler. > >I knew the old gal had a wild and crazy streak in her. Naw. C'mon now. We're dealing with pre-teen boy humor here, gallows humor. Mix that with a '50s world that included the first music video (Fantasia) and a much more monolithic musical culture among the general populace and whaddaya get? The Volga Boatmen birthday song! What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that John and Tony used to do: Why was he born so beautiful? Why was he born at all? He's no bloody good to anyone He's no bloody good at all. in 3-part harmony at the cadence.... -- Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:37:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:39:20 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807.075304.-789407.4.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> > >Why was he born so beautiful? >Why was he born at all? > >He's no bloody good to anyone >He's no bloody good at all. > >in 3-part harmony at the cadence.. This is the sort of thing that when I talk about "my week at summer vacation aka dance camp" makes people start to look at me strangely. More strangely. Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:10:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:10:13 -0400 From: eba-AT- umich.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Generic/geriatric BD party at PW English week (was Re: U. City Birthday Song) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5012843.1028715013-AT- OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: To any and all of you headed to Pinewoods next week for English Dance Week: Bring your versions of Happy Birthday, the Volga Boatmen, and other appropriate ditties, along with your accordian/lawyer/roadkill jokes and any other gallows humor which you would like to contribute and be remembered for... to a generic/geriatric birthday party on Sunday afternoon, August 11, at Pinewoods. Celebrate a birthday that happened any time of the year which wasn't properly celebrated or which you'd like to celebrate again, or any one or more from past years, or ones from future years which you might not get another chance at, or celebrate an unbirthday with Elizabeth Cave, a new camper at PW who will be celebrating her 60th BD this coming week and is sponsoring this event. Contributions of party comestibles, as well as appropriate decorations, will be very welcome (but completely optional) since there will be little time to organize this after arrival at camp, and because it is hard to bring much over the Atlantic. Humble apologies to list readers to whom this isn't relevant. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor --On Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:39 AM -0400 Mary Beth Goodman wrote: > > > > Why was he born so beautiful? > > Why was he born at all? > > > > He's no bloody good to anyone > > He's no bloody good at all. > > > > in 3-part harmony at the cadence.. > > > This is the sort of thing that when I talk about "my week at summer > vacation aka dance camp" makes people start to look at me strangely. More > strangely. > > Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:29:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:28:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Emily L. Ferguson asked: > What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that John > and Tony used to do: > > Why was he born so beautiful? > Why was he born at all? > > He's no bloody good to anyone > He's no bloody good at all. > > in 3-part harmony at the cadence.... we're crossing over into morris dance territory again - my team and probably many others inflict the above (with the words "no bloody use") on anyone unwise enough to reveal their birthdates to us. the larger contra- & english dance community here has heard it enough times to join in if someone instigates. there's 4-part harmony (with a melody almost but not quite identical to what i think of as the "morris" version) in many hymnals under the tune name "ellacombe". the above words use up only half the tune & i've often though it would be fun to set words to the rest of it. susie lorand millstone river morris, princeton, NJ, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:44:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:48:17 -0700 From: Jon Berger Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3D513331.8D710E59-AT- sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Emily L. Ferguson asked: > > > What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that John > > and Tony used to do: > > > > Why was he born so beautiful? > > Why was he born at all? > > > > He's no bloody good to anyone > > He's no bloody good at all. > > > > in 3-part harmony at the cadence.... > > we're crossing over into morris dance territory again - my team and > probably many others inflict the above (with the words "no bloody use") on > anyone unwise enough to reveal their birthdates to us. the larger contra- > & english dance community here has heard it enough times to join in if > someone instigates. My teams have typically used a different two-syllable adjective in place of "bloody." Did John and Tony actually sing in three-part harmony? If so, I'm really impressed. :^) -- Jon Berger Business: jeb-AT- jonbergerlaw.com Personal: jberger-AT- sbcglobal.net http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:05:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:04:46 -0400 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My teams have typically used a different two-syllable adjective in place of "bloody." Did John and Tony actually sing in three-part harmony? If so, I'm really impressed. :^) -- Jon Berger Business: jeb-AT- jonbergerlaw.com Personal: jberger-AT- sbcglobal.net http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jberger Arlo Guthrie sings Alice's Restaurant in 3-part, 4-part, and 5-part harmony so what's the big deal. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:45:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:45:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020807164507.4650.qmail-AT- web13608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Emily L. Ferguson asked: > > > What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that > John > > and Tony used to do: > > > > Why was he born so beautiful? > > Why was he born at all? > > > > He's no bloody good to anyone > > He's no bloody good at all. So that's where that came from. It was de rigueur among Morris dancers in the days when I wore bells. Barbara ===== "There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack." Molly Ivins __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:24:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:32:16 -0700 From: Suzanne Frank Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <003501c23e40$c210b8a0$8fd6b3d1-AT- rjiredff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807164507.4650.qmail-AT- web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Alisa Dodson choreographed a Morris dance in the Lichfield tradtion to this tune."Just for Jody" honors Jody McGeen. Suzanne Frank ----- > > > > > > > > Why was he born so beautiful? > > > Why was he born at all? > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:34:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:34:04 -0400 From: mmckenna-AT- mindspring.com Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Rose Galliard (women's Northwest) sings a twice as long (and half as snarky) version; i don't know the derivation but it probably bears some resemblance to the "true" original. I have been in Atlanta exile almost 7 years, so anyone out there with better knowledge plase correct me, but it's more or less like: Why was she born so beautiful Why was she born so dear So we can sing this song to her And tell her we're glad she's here. It's her birthday and we'll celebrate With harp and ?joyous song She is the joy of Rose Galliard The team to which we belong. maryn (currently hunting mosquitos in Louisiana) On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:28:25 -0400 (EDT) "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: ... there's 4-part harmony (with a melody almost > but not quite identical to > what i think of as the "morris" version) in > many hymnals under the tune > name "ellacombe". the above words use up only > half the tune & i've often > though it would be fun to set words to the rest > of it. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:41:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:41:45 -0400 From: mmckenna-AT- mindspring.com Subject: oh and, was Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT also, the short-snarky version isn't limited to morrispersons; one finds it in non-dance circles in England. exemplia gratia: it was used in an episode of Prime Suspect (Helen Mirren BBC/"Mystery" series) several years ago; the squad room sings it to her i think. journalists (ahem) know it too. maryn (ex-morrisperson and current journalist) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:55:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:54:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: oh and, was Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 mmckenna-AT- mindspring.com wrote: > also, the short-snarky version isn't limited to morrispersons; one finds > it in non-dance circles in England. exemplia gratia: it was used in an > episode of Prime Suspect (Helen Mirren BBC/"Mystery" series) several > years ago; the squad room sings it to her i think. yes; i recall them singing it to her in a pub. - susie lorand (who's now happily TV-less in princeton, but did enjoy "mystery" in the early 90s...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:36:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:17:40 -0400 From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020807.174155.-79917.12.dcculb-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:48:17 -0700 Jon Berger writes: > "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Emily L. Ferguson asked: > > > > > What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that > John > > > and Tony used to do: > > > > > > Why was he born so beautiful? > > > Why was he born at all? > > > > > > He's no bloody good to anyone > > > He's no bloody good at all. > > > > > > in 3-part harmony at the cadence.... > > > > we're crossing over into morris dance territory again Actually, from what I understand (i.e. someone I know from the UK) this song is sung lustily at rugby matches every time one of the players commits a gaffe on the field. Why morris dancers decided to appropriate it for birthday use is just another one of life's little mysteries. :-) Dawn Culbertson Baltimore, MD ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:22:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:21:55 -0400 From: Michael Siemon Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807164507.4650.qmail-AT- web13608.mail.yahoo.com> >--- "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Emily L. Ferguson asked: >> >> > What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that >> John >> > and Tony used to do: >> > >> > Why was he born so beautiful? >> > Why was he born at all? >> > >> > He's no bloody good to anyone >> > He's no bloody good at all. > >So that's where that came from. It was de rigueur among Morris >dancers in the days when I wore bells. > It is a common rugby song, as well (I hestitate to speculate on the relative dates of usage in these two immemorial and ancient ritual activities...) Michael ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:08:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Reminder: ECD list unavailable this weekend To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KL0ZJIQLQ6HOV13H-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- As I mentioned last week, SLAC is taking a complete power outage in its computer center starting at 3:00 pm PDT Friday, August 9th; everything is expected to be back by Monday morning. All ECD mail goes through one of the SLAC mail gateway systems; those systems are in the computer building. (Worse than that, all external network connectivity - the ability to talk to the Internet - is funneled through the comnputer building.) So even though playford, the node that runs the list, will be up, it won't be able to send or receive mail. If you send _to_ the ECD list your ISP will probably retry delivery occasionally over the course of three days. If you don't get a message back that it's given up trying, assume that it will eventually succeed, and don't re-send. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:47:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:47:50 -0400 (EDT) From: DavBarnert-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: U. City Birthday Song To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1bd.a152b71.2a8335d6-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Emily wrote: >The Volga Boatmen birthday song! > >What I want to know is what happened to the birthday song that John >and Tony used to do: > >Why was he born so beautiful? >Why was he born at all? > >He's no bloody good to anyone >He's no bloody good at all. > >in 3-part harmony at the cadence.... Whenever anybody on my Morris team has a birthday, the rest sing a medley of the traditional birthday song (copyright still active, and owned by Michael Jackson, I believe), followed by the above, followed by the Volga version. ______ /\/\/\/\ <______> | | | | | David Barnert <______> | | | | | Pokingbrook Morris <______> | | | | | Albany, N.Y. <______> \/\/\/\/ Ventilator Concertina Bellows Bellows (Vocation) (Avocation) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:48:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:48:10 -0700 From: Alisa Dodson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: why were they born so beautiful? (minimal ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807164507.4650.qmail-AT- web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Just a note about this dance -- first, it's Lichfield for 6, rather than the usual 8, and second, the A music is the "why were you born... etc", and the B music was written by Bill Jensen. Hmm -- and I'll also add that Jody McGeen is the founder of Mayfield Morris & Sword (as well as an ECD leader!). Alisa >Alisa Dodson choreographed a Morris dance in the Lichfield tradtion to this >tune."Just for Jody" honors Jody McGeen. > >Suzanne Frank >----- >> >> > > > >> > > Why was he born so beautiful? >> > > Why was he born at all? >> > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:53:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:53:30 -0700 From: Alisa Dodson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: birthday dirge To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gee Mary Beth, that's a lot of verses! As Alan wrote earlier, yes, I used to make up verses for the person being honored. But then people on my morris team began making objections to using the song -- too morbid, they thought. Is this because we are getting older, or are we losing our sense of humor? I don't know, but I quit starting the Dirge or adding to it, at least in the SF Bay Area. Alisa, who is now a Michigander New address for those interested: Allen & Alisa Dodson 5072 N. Gilmore Rd. Weidman, MI 48893 (989) 644-3336 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:02:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:02:42 -0400 From: eba-AT- umich.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: birthday dirge To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3049140.1028800962-AT- OphthyElecGX260.med.umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: --On Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:53 AM -0700 Alisa Dodson wrote: > Alisa, who is now a Michigander Or Michigoose -- but welcome in any case! Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:14:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:12:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: michiganders/geese (no ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 eba-AT- umich.edu wrote: > --On Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:53 AM -0700 Alisa Dodson > wrote: > > > Alisa, who is now a Michigander > > Or Michigoose -- but welcome in any case! > > Eric didn't the term officially become "michiganian" a decade or two ago? - susie lorand former michigan resident, whatever you call us... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:55:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:54:23 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: michiganders/geese (no ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002a01c23eeb$7c5b7380$bd294b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan R. Lorand > > Alisa, who is now a Michigander > > Or Michigoose -- but welcome in any case! > > Eric <> A little close to "meshugenah" for comfort. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:23:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:23:34 -0700 From: Howard Carlberg Subject: Re: birthday dirge To: ECD list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D5351C0.DCD095A3-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul, and now for something completely different, here is what one of the Ren. Faire ECD groups sent to a member. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [newcastle-ecd] to Ginny on her 27th birthday Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:42:38 -0700 From: "Tom DiPasquale" Reply-To: newcastle-ecd-AT- yahoogroups.com To: newcastle-ecd-AT- yahoogroups.com, skunkman-bs-AT- yahoogroups.com Once a year we celebrate with stupid hats and plastic plates The fact that you were able to make another trip around the sun And the whole clan gathers round and gifts and laughter do abound And we let out a joyful sound and sing that stupid song Happy birthday, now you're one year older Happy birthday, your life still isn't over Happy birthday, you did not accomplish much But you didn't die this year I guess that's good enough So let's drink to your fading health and hope you don't remind yourself The chance of finding fame and wealth decrease with every year Does it feel like you're doing laps and eating food and taking naps And hoping that someday perhaps your life will hold some cheer Happy birthday, what have you done that matters Happy birthday, you're starting to get fatter Happy birthday, it's downhill from now on Try not to remind yourself your best years are all gone If cryogenics were all free then you could live like Walt Disney And live for all eternity inside a block of ice But instead your time is set this is the only life you get And though it hasn't ended yet sometimes you wish it might Happy birthday, you wish you had more money Happy birthday, your life's so sad it's funny Happy birthday, how much more can you take But your friends are hungry so just cut the stupid cake _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/5O1qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: newcastle-ecd-unsubscribe-AT- yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:24:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:24:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: michiganders/geese (no ECD content) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020809052448.83773.qmail-AT- web20006.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: > - susie lorand > former michigan resident, whatever you call us... Maybe Michigoner? andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:42:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:42:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: birthday dirge To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020809054213.52479.qmail-AT- web20003.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alisa Dodson wrote: > my morris team began making objections to using the song -- too > morbid, they thought. Is this because we are getting older, or are > we losing our sense of humor? I don't know, but I quit starting the > Dirge or adding to it, at least in the SF Bay Area. > > Alisa, who is now a Michigander Oh Boy!!! A whole new group of victims... Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:24:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:24:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Fwd: SF Bay Area Swedish Folk Music Concert and Dance August 15 To: =?UNKNOWN?Q?ECD=A0list?= Message-ID: <20020809062436.1513.qmail-AT- web20002.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Some of you in the Bay area might find this of interest. It came from the SCAND (Scandinavian Music and Dance) list. Swedish fiddler Björn Nylander will be in the Bay area August 12-15. Björn is last year's recipient of the Tällberg Foundation award, given each year by Dalarnas Spelmans Förbund (in Sweden) to a promising musician. The stipend is to be spent on a tour of the U.S. for the purpose of spreading Swedish culture and folk music and to meet U.S. musicians. He started his tour in early July in New York and is wending his way west. On Thursday 8/15, Björn will be featured at a concert and dance: 7:30-8:00 Concert 8:00-10:00 Dance (music by Björn and other local musicians) Oakland Nature Friends 3115 Butters Dr, Oakland $6 Directions: Take the Joaquin Miller Rd. exit off of Highway 13 (can be reached either from Hwy 24 or Interstate 580). Go east (if you pass the Mormon Temple, you went west) up the hill. Go right on Butters (should be the second or third street after the freeway) and go about 1/2 mile (the road is very curvy). After a hairpin turn, the second driveway on the right will go down a steep hill to the parking arear for the Oakland Nature Friends Lodge. For more info, call Fred or Toby at (510) 215-5974 Björn grew up near Grangärde in Southern Dalarna, where he started playing classical violin at the age of 10. Later in his school years he played with a couple of local symphony orchestras, but at the same time he developed his interest in the local folk music, which he heard his father and sister play at home. He plays violin and double bass with Saxdalingarna, the group led by Olle Wallman. Since moving to Uppsala for his university education, he has played with spelmanslags there as well and has developed a wide repertoire. He has formed the group Kolsyra (carbon dioxide--implying carbonated or bubbly) with three friends. He teaches fiddle playing and organizes courses as well. In 1999 Björn received the Zorn bronze medal for his playing of Grangärde tunes. In his non-musical life, Björn is studying in the Natural Resources masters program at the Swedish Agricultural University in Uppsala, with the aim of becoming a biologist. His special interest in birds and birding have taken him to Southeast Asia and Australia as well as parts of Europe. Björn likes to stay up late and, he says, is known for his ability to fall asleep anywhere. You can read more about Björn at his web site Other events during his Bay Area visit: Monday 8/12 (7:30-10:00) Fiddle workshop at the home of Fred Bialy, El Cerrito, 510-215-5974, fee $10 for participants. Tuesday 8/13 (7:30-10:00) Fiddle workshop at the home of Karen Myers, San Carlos, 650-593-5191 (home) or 408-242-5580 (cell), fee $10 for participants. For directions to these events, call (or email) the hosts or Carolyn Hunt (925-443-7471). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:34:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:34:29 -0700 From: Howard Carlberg Subject: Re:(how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D536251.61647CD2-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Campbell Kaynor wrote: > One other thing to add - I have often found that the essence of a style > escapes me until I am thrust into the midst of a group in which everyone > (except me) is employing that style. Then through something other than > direct observation and explicit instruction - I feel like it's a kind of > osmosis - delivers to my soul an aspect that had proved elusive in other > settings. yes, yes! Well said. Some steps can be taught, some style pointers taught, some style can be learned, but only up to a point, beyond which one must be surrounded by the experienced performers of that style, to absorb the details and nuances which cannot be individually described. At some level, you will be adjusting to the style of the dancers (or musicians) around you, and to some extent they will be adjusting to you and your abilities. Just as Cammy said relative to a Morris side. > Morris side situation. This is in part because the side has its own style > that builds by consensus independently of the foreman and the practised > features. On the other hand, if all you ever dance with is a group of fumbling beginners in Timbuktu, with no consistancy, then that is what you will look like and that is as good as you will get. You can learn dances from a book, but you won't learn style from a book and you are unlikely to learn it all from any single expert. That is the beauty of a dance (and music) community. Go to different dances all around. Go to a dance camp or festival. Once you have the basics, the finer points have to be experienced. Howard -- Howard & Shirley Carlberg 878 Pauline Court Santa Rosa, CA 95401 (707) 528-2310 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:54:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 01:52:44 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: birthday dirge To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <004f01c23f71$5dd21aa0$552b4b0c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <3D5351C0.DCD095A3-AT- ix.netcom.com> Gosh, what do they sing to someone they don't like? Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:17:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re:(how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KL2OND4JEQHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Howard wrote: > yes, yes! Well said. > Some steps can be taught, some style pointers taught, some > style can be learned, but only up to a point, beyond which > one must be surrounded by the experienced performers of that > style, to absorb the details and nuances which cannot be > individually described. Yes, but no. (Yes, if you've never seen Argentine Tango you're not gonna be doing Argentine Tango, no matter how good a description you read. No, because, to pick an example not entirely at random, the English Country Dance style we started out talking about was synthetic. The demo team Sharp trained was never surrounded by people who were already doing it that way. The people May Gadd introduced to it weren't surrounded by people already doing it that way.) A strong leader with a real vision, and a lot of individual coaching, can in some cases communicate a style. > On the other hand, if all you ever dance with is a group of > fumbling beginners in Timbuktu, with no consistancy, then > that is what you will look like and that is as good as you > will get. You can learn dances from a book, but you won't > learn style from a book and you are unlikely to learn it all > from any single expert. Indeed. But actually, I heard that Barleycorn (the guys who became Holyrood) learned morris from a book, and the first time I ever saw them they had beautiful style - unlike anything else around. Once they got embedded in the morris community (and became Holyrood), their style went to hell. [In my opinion, of course, and it may have been because of a conscious decision to emphasize their bigness and strongness - but it seemed to me that their motion lost the extraordinary purity it had when I first saw them at the first PterodactAle in 1989. And I could be wrong about their having learned Morris from a book - I heard that secondhand.] > That is the beauty of a dance (and music) community. Go to > different dances all around. Go to a dance camp or festival. > Once you have the basics, the finer points have to be experienced. I'll agree that this is generally true. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:18:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:18:59 -0700 From: Howard Carlberg Subject: Re: (how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D5388B2.360A78-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01KL2OND4JEQHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > The demo team Sharp trained was never > surrounded by people who were already doing it that way. The people May Gadd > introduced to it weren't surrounded by people already doing it that way.) > > A strong leader with a real vision, and a lot of individual coaching, can in > some cases communicate a style. Ah, but now I think you are not talking of learning a given style as much as inventing a new one, or a variation. Sharp could teach his demo team style, only up to a point, after that they will have to work out the finer points and details by concensus. A group that dances together consistantly can develop a consistent style. But they have not learned "the style" of ECD, more they have developed (synthesized) "a style". Sharp had his vision of the dancing, and he can lead the dancers in that direction, but I think the dancers put the finishing touches on the style themselves. I think the same is true for the example you gave of Barleycorn, if they learned morris from a book or whatever source, they made their own beautiful style. This is good and fine, and a natural and historic folk process. But it is seperate from the question of how to learn (or teach) style. It seems to me Pat originally asked how does one learn style, not create one. Then again, maybe it doesn't matter. Howard -- Howard & Shirley Carlberg 878 Pauline Court Santa Rosa, CA 95401 (707) 528-2310 - phone in house ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:44:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:44:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: michiganders/geese (no ECD content) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200208091444.g79EimD17304-AT- staff2.cso.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy Peterson writes: > > --- "Susan R. Lorand" wrote: > > - susie lorand > > former michigan resident, whatever you call us... > > Maybe Michigoner? How long can you be gone from Michigan and still be considered a Michgananianer? ;-) I lived in Ann Arbor for 5 years in the mid-sixties, does that count? Jonathan "Now living in the sucker state" Sivier ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:29:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:29:28 -0400 From: Campbell Kaynor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re:(how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Alan, I was not suggesting that it is impossible to develop style in isolation nor that some aspects that could be considered "style" cannot be taught. I was referring more to my attempts to pick up A PARTICULAR style such as the Boda (town in Western Dalarna) Polskor. What you described in the example of the C# entourage is reminiscent of my second Morris team who learned Bucknell from the Bacon book and the tidbits I knew from my experience on NCMM. It was some 12 years before we went to Bucknell and we had developed quite a distinctive style (deliberately letting it evolve to suit the dancers more than the written record and hence unlikely to be much like the Bucknell of the past or present). Certainly we (and the C# dancers) had a well honed style that may have been more or less close to what we set out to revive. However, for new members to learn our special style, I have always found it expedient to thrust them into the midst of an experienced side. We can work all we want on steps and movements in isolation but there is a something that they pick up when in the middle of the whole group that is (in my opinion) best learned that way. Cammy Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re:(how to learn style) Sent by: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.S TANFORD.EDU 09-Aug-2002 03:10 AM Please respond to ECD Alan wrote: Yes, but no. (Yes, if you've never seen Argentine Tango you're not gonna be doing Argentine Tango, no matter how good a description you read. No, because, to pick an example not entirely at random, the English Country Dance style we started out talking about was synthetic. The demo team Sharp trained was never surrounded by people who were already doing it that way. The people May Gadd introduced to it weren't surrounded by people already doing it that way.) A strong leader with a real vision, and a lot of individual coaching, can in some cases communicate a style. > On the other hand, if all you ever dance with is a group of > fumbling beginners in Timbuktu, with no consistancy, then > that is what you will look like and that is as good as you > will get. You can learn dances from a book, but you won't > learn style from a book and you are unlikely to learn it all > from any single expert. Indeed. But actually, I heard that Barleycorn (the guys who became Holyrood) learned morris from a book, and the first time I ever saw them they had beautiful style - unlike anything else around. Once they got embedded in the morris community (and became Holyrood), their style went to hell. [In my opinion, of course, and it may have been because of a conscious decision to emphasize their bigness and strongness - but it seemed to me that their motion lost the extraordinary purity it had when I first saw them at the first PterodactAle in 1989. And I could be wrong about their having learned Morris from a book - I heard that secondhand.] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:14:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re:(how to learn style) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KL3BKVAU9GHOWR10-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cammy wrote: > I was not suggesting that it is impossible to develop style in isolation > nor that some aspects that could be considered "style" cannot be taught. I > was referring more to my attempts to pick up A PARTICULAR style such as the > Boda (town in Western Dalarna) Polskor. What you described in the example > of the C# entourage is reminiscent of my second Morris team who learned > Bucknell from the Bacon book and the tidbits I knew from my experience on > NCMM. It was some 12 years before we went to Bucknell and we had developed > quite a distinctive style (deliberately letting it evolve to suit the > dancers more than the written record and hence unlikely to be much like the > Bucknell of the past or present). Certainly we (and the C# dancers) had a > well honed style that may have been more or less close to what we set out > to revive. > However, for new members to learn our special style, I have always found it > expedient to thrust them into the midst of an experienced side. We can work > all we want on steps and movements in isolation but there is a something > that they pick up when in the middle of the whole group that is (in my > opinion) best learned that way. I don't dispute this at all; in fact, I strongly agree with it. (If there's a correct model everywhere you look, it's much easier to fit in with it than it is to call forth a quality of motion in isolation. I was just, feeling contrarian, pointing out a counterexample to Howard's claim that this was the _only_ way to learn style. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:03:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:54:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: If you can read this ... To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KL7YQUWJPIHP5241-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT . . . you're driving too close. Er, I mean, the ECD list has reopened for business. Apparently people actually read their email and refrained from posting during the outage, so there was no backlog of messages waiting to go. (Incidentally, even if SLAC hadn't shut down the computer center and the mail gateway machines, the list would, as it turns out, have been off this weekend. The air-conditioning in my building is off for the month of August because of cooling tower maintenance (yes, that scheduling is as stupid as it sounds) and on Friday, when it got over 95 degrees in my office the over-temperature sensor in the UPS tripped, and after beeping for an hour shut off the power. I was there for it, but couldn't do much about it except take it as a sign from heaven to leave the building - I knew it would be even hotter on Saturday.) -- Alan (extremely glad that there's an icemaker in the lunch room here) =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:03:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:03:46 -0700 (PDT) From: barbararuth-AT- rocketmail.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020813020346.62350.qmail-AT- mta408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I will be away from email from August 9-19. -------------------- Original Message: X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from 134.79.18.82 (EHLO smtp1.SLAC.Stanford.EDU) (134.79.18.82) by mta408.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 19:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.smtp1.slac.stanford.edu by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) id <0H0R00E01F1Y6S-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu> for barbararuth-AT- ROCKETMAIL.COM; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu (SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [134.79.33.14]) by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) with SMTP id <0H0R00DB4F1WC6-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu>; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:54:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: If you can read this ... Sender: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Errors-to: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Warnings-to: <> Reply-to: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Mes _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:50:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:50:36 +1000 From: Earthly Delights Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: FW: I had trouble posting last week.... To: "ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT So I'm not sure if this message got through. I found a new forum discussing all social dance from ECD to Contra to Vintage. Thought you might be interested in visiting. http://www.voy.com/101083/ Cheers, Aylwen Garden ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:15:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:15:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Pearl Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Volume 6 CDS Boston Bare Necessities CD is now available To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020813151542.76926.qmail-AT- web12302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Volume 6 of the Boston Centre's English Country Dance Collection, entitled "At The Ball" is shipping to our dealers today! The latest entry, again featuring Bare Necessities, is a collection of longways dances, and serves as a counterpoint to the previous volume (set dances). The selection of dances was drawn from the band's long series of appearances at the Philadelphia Playford Ball. About the Series: The series was started in 1999 with the goal of providing recordings primarily for dancing. We are of the opinion that great dance music also makes for great listening, and this series confirms that notion. Part of the goal of the series was to bring English Country Dancing to areas that could not sustain live musicians, and we are gratified to hear that this has indeed come to pass. "At The Ball" will be available first from the domestic US sources (CDSS, Folk Arts Center, the performers, and Gene Murrow (the producer)). Shipments will be reaching the usual dealers abroad in the next few weeks (AADS, Cotswold Music, etc.) Selections on "At The Ball": Amarillis • Anna Maria • Bar a Bar • Corelli's Maggot • King of Poland • Leather Lake House • Mount Hills • Mulberry Garden • Never Love Thee More • Northdown Waltz • Prince George's Birthday • Pursuit • Red House • Sadler's Wells • Young Widow In the next few weeks, sound samples will be put up on the CDS Boston recording page: http://cds-boston.org/ecdc/ Thank you for your continuing support for this series. Dan Pearl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:12:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:09:18 -0400 From: SUSAN B BOOKER Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Too hot to dance? Try a cave! To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <003a01c24348$5d9753e0$5b02ffd1-AT- oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT While surfing for information concerning Fayette County, Kentucky's Russell's Cave, above which stands the historic and structurally sound 1792 12 room Greek Revival mansion, "Mount Brilliant", now in immediate danger of demolition by its present owner, I discovered a fascinating article about "cave dancing", a popular pastime of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Written by Joseph C. Douglas and titled "Dancing in the Cool of a Cave: Historic Social Use of the American Underground", this well-documented and very readable article can be found at http://webwhisper.com/tcs/DancinginCaves%20(1).pdf Enjoy! Susan Booker, who dances above ground in Lexington, KY when she's not trying to save endangered mansions...and who occasionally combines the two activities. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:57:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:02:55 -0700 From: Ric Goldman Subject: The Bonny Grayeyed Morn To: List - ECD PLAYFORD Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <000401c24360$9d133bc0$6401a8c0-AT- nsr.hp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene Morrow recently called this out at a benefit here in the Bay Area last month, and I've had a request to call it at an upcoming dance. Could I trouble the group mind for a copy of the dance notes and the tune (or pointers to same). Feel free to reply to me off list if you prefer. Thanx, Ric Goldman timelord-AT- rgoldman.org http://connect.to/ric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:21:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:21:26 +0100 From: Alan Corkett Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: CONTRA SPECIAL AT HALSWAY To: EngCountryDance Message-ID: <00bb01c2451f$71a2e9c0$7f3d86d9-AT- default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT STOP PRESS URGENT - I have set up a new event for 20-22 Sept 2002 at Halsway to replace a cancelled event. I am sending a special mention for this as I hope it would help us to sell it in 38 days!! Stop Press - New Contra Special Weekend 20-22 Sept 2002. with Mike Courthold and top musicians play for him- including Rod & Fran Stradling, Rachel Taylor and Howard Mitchell. ------------------------------ New Manor Event Application form - Send to Halsway Manor Crowcombe TA4 4BD Names ................................................... Tel........................ Postal Address..................................................................... ....... .............................................................Post Code................................... Accommodation required single - twin/double - Large sharing rooms (£10 discount) For full weekend enclose payment of £110 (one hundred & ten UK pounds) per person for sharing in large rooms. £120 for singles and doubles or twins. For dinner, Ceilidh, B/B send £35 per person. For Dinner & Ceildh send £15 per person For Ceildh Tickets only send £5 each. Details of weekend workshops to follow. ----------------------------------------- Regards Alan Corkett Tel 01278 732202 Halsway Office 01984 618 274 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:23:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:23:07 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Baltimore Playford Ball - October 19 To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <191.b9c50f4.2a8e9d0b-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Hi all, Announcing: The 2002 Baltimore Playford Ball, to be held Saturday, October 19, at Church of the Redeemer, Charles and Melrose Streets, Baltimore. We are delighted to have The Flying Romanos playing music for us. For info, e-mail us at Playford-AT- bfms.org Download a pdf registration flyer at www.bfms.org  The program will be: The Bishop The Black Nag Dublin Bay Fair and Softly The Fandango The Haymakers Jack’s Health Joy After Sorrow Knives and Forks Mad Robin Mister Beveridge’s Maggot The Dunant House Waltz Picking Up Sticks Round About Our Coal Fire Shrewsbury Lasses Softly Good Tummas Sun Assembly Up With Aily Well Hall The Young Widow Hope to see you all there. Now walking out the door for Pinewoods Campers' Week... I expect we will pass (going the other way) many of you who have been at English Week. Carl and Diane Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:36:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:36:15 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Norman Bett To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, BPrent-AT- aol.com, strathspey-AT- strathspey.org Message-ID: <3a.2b18a34f.2a8f028f-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It is with great sorrow that I report the death last Sunday of Norman Bett, the Scottish Accordionist who lived for the last 44 years in Cambridge. He remained closely in touch with his friends in Scotland from many years ago and he and Jane visited Scotland two or three times a year, always calling on one set of friends or another on their way to the cottage on Loch Lomond. I was privileged to call him my friend since 1960 when we began playing together, and it was partly from me that he developed a great love of the Playford music as well as Scottish, organizing the Band and playing for the Playford Ball in Cambridge for a number of years. A man of great kindness and humility, he was an inspiration to many aspiring musicians all over Britain, and all who played with him were greatly helped and enriched by the experience. Although a very fine Accordionist, his first instrument was the Violin /Fiddle, and he returned very much to it in latter years, playing String Quartets with Jane and two other friends on a regular basis. He was also a more than competent pianist, accompanying Jane as she played for childrens' Scottish dancing until very recently. He also wrote piano arrangements of considerable quality for my own ECD compositions for which I shall always be glad as a very personal reminder of a fine musician. Those of us who knew him will miss his gentle humour, generosity with music and advice and great kindness. We shall not see his like again. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:59:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:02:31 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: thanks Bare Necessities! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've been listening to assorted BN recordings while finishing my latest quilt (on deadline of course!). Thank goodness for compelling, impelling music up close and personal. The combination of iPod and noise cancelling ear pieces really do it for me. The needle just flies and things get done. So, I was flashing back to my first year at Pinewoods and wondering how all the tired English week campers are. I remember having this tune and a fragment of a dance stuck in my head. I can still remember doing the dance with Genny Shimer. whoa. Pat Talbot had taken me under her wing, giving me good advice on the porch - things like - you don't have to take a class every period! The things you learn! Anyway, after camp, with this tune rumbling around in my head, I wrote Pat, asking for help identifying the dance and music. I don't remember what I said about it, but the answer came back: Quite Carr-ied Away. Ahhhhhhh Hoping for camp reports from happy campers. Mary Beth <-- with her finished quilt, two weeks ahead of deadline. Now just the photography remains to do. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:48:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:47:51 +0100 From: Alan Corkett Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: thanks Bare Necessities! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Mary Beth Goodman Message-ID: <002f01c2475d$1af83540$c66f86d9-AT- default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes! Pinewoods - something I intend to do one day!! Alan Corkett Nether Stowey Somerset UK -----Original Message----- From: Mary Beth Goodman To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Date: 19 August 2002 06:00 Subject: thanks Bare Necessities! I've been listening to assorted BN recordings while finishing my latest quilt (on deadline of course!). Thank goodness for compelling, impelling music up close and personal. The combination of iPod and noise cancelling ear pieces really do it for me. The needle just flies and things get done. So, I was flashing back to my first year at Pinewoods and wondering how all the tired English week campers are. I remember having this tune and a fragment of a dance stuck in my head. I can still remember doing the dance with Genny Shimer. whoa. Pat Talbot had taken me under her wing, giving me good advice on the porch - things like - you don't have to take a class every period! The things you learn! Anyway, after camp, with this tune rumbling around in my head, I wrote Pat, asking for help identifying the dance and music. I don't remember what I said about it, but the answer came back: Quite Carr-ied Away. Ahhhhhhh Hoping for camp reports from happy campers. Mary Beth <-- with her finished quilt, two weeks ahead of deadline. Now just the photography remains to do. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:34:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:33:13 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Regency Dance/New York City/Sunday 8-25 To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For the NYC-accessible and Regency-curious: Regency Dance Workshop Sunday August 25, 2002 My regular monthly dance workshop this month will be all Regency (Jane Austen, Napoleonic Wars, etc.) material. This will be a mildly experimental session as I try mixing up several dance forms in one workshop and see how it works. I will be playing with this mix this month and next in preparation for next year's Regency series and ball. Willing guinea pigs welcome. The workshop is in two parts: 1:00-2:00 - Intermediate; Regency set dances with all the nifty steps added in. This is open to anyone, but I only review the basic steps and step combinations before moving on to slightly more difficult ones, so if you aren't quick at picking up steps you may get a bit lost. This is bouncy and mildly strenuous - more akin to modern Scottish Country Dance than ECD. 2:00-4:00 - Basic; this will be a mad combination of English and French country dance and waltz. Most likely, that will imply dancing the Triumph, some improvisational country dance, and La Trenise, and then playing around with the Slow French Waltz. The specific dances are subject to change, as Newport Dance Week ate my brain and I am still toying around with class plans. The set dances will be done either walking or chasse'-ing - no fancy steps will be taught, although some style points will be emphasized. Cost is $15 in general; $10 if this is your first time at one of our workshops. Generally it's a small group - historic social dance is exotic even in the weird-dance-forms realm. PLEASE RSVP to: meredith-AT- elegantarts.org - the number of people we are expecting affects how I prepare for the class! Time: 1:00-2:00pm - Intermediate (steps) 2:00-4:00pm - Basic (no steps) Location: Hop, Swing, and a Jump, 132 Crosby Street #2 for directions, see our webpage, http://www.elegantarts.org/classprac.html EAS offers monthly historical social dance classes of the 15th through early 20th centuries - Renaissance, 17th century country dance, Regency/Jane Austen/1810's, American Civil War/1860's, Belle Epoque/1890's, and Ragtime/1910's. See our website for more information. http://www.elegantarts.org/. To receive these announcements consistently, please email info-AT- elegantarts.org to be added to our mailing list - I only announce on the ECD list the workshops a) that include something that resembles country or set dance, and b) that I remember to post (and it's always at the last minute - the Tuesday before is some sort of record!) Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 03:51:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 03:51:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: annapolis trip To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020821105153.13630.qmail-AT- web20707.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I will be in annapolis Md. on Sept 1 for a wedding. Will be staying in the area the previous evening Aug 31 and wonder if there is any english country dance activity that evening. I will have a car available and will be in Jessup, Md. Please reply direct to me if there is any dancing going on that night (Aug 31). Ben Stein Burlingotn, vt. 05401 ecdscd-AT- yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:58:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:58:05 -0400 (EDT) From: RbnRussell-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_rWKpK22py+CdZU69rOXdjw)" --Boundary_(ID_rWKpK22py+CdZU69rOXdjw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all, I am hoping someone can provide me with source and publication date for the version of Halfe Hannikin that matches the tune as printed in Barnes (AAB: 4 bars in each A; 8 bars in the B; 16 bars in all). Thanks! Robin Russell --Boundary_(ID_rWKpK22py+CdZU69rOXdjw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all,
I am hoping someone can provide me with source and publication date for the version of Halfe Hannikin that matches the tune as printed in Barnes (AAB: 4 bars in each A; 8 bars in the B; 16 bars in all).  
Thanks!
Robin Russell --Boundary_(ID_rWKpK22py+CdZU69rOXdjw)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:02:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:02:04 +0100 From: Alan Corkett Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Halsway Contra Special To: EngCountryDance Message-ID: <001201c24956$01fbf5e0$1c5786d9-AT- default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Contra Dancers ... Hear This! For the new weekend event at Halsway Manor, Somerset, UK., 20-22 Sept 2002, If you are interested and available, details and booking form on ;-www.halswaymanor.org.uk panel on home page. Only 30 days to go :-) Best wishes Alan Corkett ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:10:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:08:04 -0500 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D648DD4.3725C48E-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: RbnRussell-AT- aol.com wrote: > I am hoping someone can provide me with source and publication date > for the version of Halfe Hannikin that matches the tune as printed in > Barnes (AAB: 4 bars in each A; 8 bars in the B; 16 bars in all). The original is a longways dance in 1st edition Playford. There's a circular / mixer version in Millar's "Elizabethan Country Dances". I've danced both and find the circular version more "pleasing". I also like to teach it to new dancers -- it has the basic USA elements and not much else to cause confusion. --Charlene -- It is not so much our friends' help that help us as the confident knowledge that they will help us. --Epicurus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 03:13:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:12:58 -0400 (EDT) From: RbnRussell-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <136.12cfb91c.2a96132a-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_dSluZNdT31dZRyUTlFDptQ)" --Boundary_(ID_dSluZNdT31dZRyUTlFDptQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Charlene, Thanks so much! We (The Flying Romanos) and our producers are in the final throes of writing liner notes for a cd which we hope will be ready for early October. We would like to cite sources for the dance steps to each tune so that folks who want to dance to the music can begin to track down those steps. our opening tune is Halfe Hannikin-- so cheerful. I have danced this as a longways mixer, but never as a circle mixer. We could cite the Millar reference for the circle mixer. Would that be the Hugh Mellor edition of John Playford's English Dancing Master? ... It's listed on CDSS's book list. Would you by chance know the reference for the longways mixer? Many thanks for any help you can offer. Robin > Subj: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin > Date: 8/22/02 3:11:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: perronnelle-AT- earthlink.net (Charlene Charette) > Sender: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Reply-to: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > > > > > RbnRussell-AT- aol.com wrote: > > > I am hoping someone can provide me with source and publication date > > for the version of Halfe Hannikin that matches the tune as printed in > > Barnes (AAB: 4 bars in each A; 8 bars in the B; 16 bars in all). > > The original is a longways dance in 1st edition Playford. There's a > circular / mixer version in Millar's "Elizabethan Country Dances". I've > danced both and find the circular version more "pleasing". I also like > to teach it to new dancers -- it has the basic USA elements and not much > else to cause confusion. > > --Charlene > > -- > It is not so much our friends' help that help us as the confident > knowledge that they will help us. --Epicurus > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) > by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id MAILINZA31-0822031119; Thu, > 22 Aug 2002 03:11:19 -0400 > Received: from smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (smtp1.slac.stanford.edu > [134.79.18.82]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id > MAILRELAYINZA46-0822031110; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 03:11:10 -0400 > Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.smtp1.slac.stanford.edu by > smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) > id <0H1800E01H95NS-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu>; Thu, > 22 Aug 2002 00:10:18 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu > (ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [134.79.33.14]) by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu > (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) with SMTP id <0H1800DCVH9391-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu>; > Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:10:17 -0700 (PDT) > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:08:04 -0500 > From: Charlene Charette > Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin > Sender: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Errors-to: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Warnings-to: <> > Reply-to: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Message-id: <3D648DD4.3725C48E-AT- earthlink.net> > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > References: > X-Listname: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance > > > > --Boundary_(ID_dSluZNdT31dZRyUTlFDptQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Charlene,
Thanks so much!

We (The Flying Romanos) and our producers are in the final throes of writing liner notes for a cd which we hope will be ready for early October.  We would like to cite sources for the dance steps to each tune so that folks who want to dance to the music can begin to track down those steps.  

our opening tune is Halfe Hannikin-- so cheerful.  I have danced this as a longways mixer, but never as a circle mixer.  We could cite the Millar reference for the circle mixer.   Would that be the Hugh Mellor edition of John Playford's English Dancing Master? ... It's listed on CDSS's book list.

Would you by chance know the reference for the longways mixer?

Many thanks for any help you can offer.
Robin
 

Subj: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin
Date: 8/22/02 3:11:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From:    perronnelle-AT- earthlink.net (Charlene Charette)
Sender:    owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-to: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
To:    ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU




RbnRussell-AT- aol.com wrote:

> I am hoping someone can provide me with source and publication date
> for the version of Halfe Hannikin that matches the tune as printed in
> Barnes (AAB: 4 bars in each A; 8 bars in the B; 16 bars in all).

The original is a longways dance in 1st edition Playford.  There's a
circular / mixer version in Millar's "Elizabethan Country Dances".  I've
danced both and find the circular version more "pleasing".  I also like
to teach it to new dancers -- it has the basic USA elements and not much
else to cause confusion.

--Charlene

--
It is not so much our friends' help that help us as the confident
knowledge that they will help us.  --Epicurus


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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:08:04 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle-AT- earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin
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X-Listname: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance
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--Boundary_(ID_dSluZNdT31dZRyUTlFDptQ)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:18:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:18:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Charlene Charette wrote: > RbnRussell-AT- aol.com wrote: > > > I am hoping someone can provide me with source and publication date > > for the version of Halfe Hannikin that matches the tune as printed in > > Barnes (AAB: 4 bars in each A; 8 bars in the B; 16 bars in all). > > The original is a longways dance in 1st edition Playford. There's a > circular / mixer version in Millar's "Elizabethan Country Dances". I've > danced both and find the circular version more "pleasing". I also like > to teach it to new dancers -- it has the basic USA elements and not much > else to cause confusion. Do you teach a mixer to beginners? Or just the circular version? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:36:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:35:57 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200208221635.RAA07510-AT- galahad.tgis.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The original dance (Playford's Dancing Master, 1651) is a 24 bar (AABB) longways whole set dance with all the men on one side and all the women on the other side. After one turn of the dance there is a man left out at the top and a woman left out at the bottom. They miss out one turn and then join in on the other side of the dance for the next turn. This is similar to a longways duple minor dance as done today except that it is one person who stays out rather than one couple. Tom Cook produced a version of the dance for 20th century dancers such that the dance starts improper and no-one stands out, you just move straight over to the end of the other line. This stops men having to hold hands, side and turn other men (and women likewise). Barlow (The Complete Country Dance Tunes) shows Halfe Hannikin as a 24 bar tune. I do not know why Barnes has decided to ignore the second B music. As soon as I get a chance I will put my interpretation up on my web site. Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:21:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:19:27 -0500 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D652B2F.594186F0-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <136.12cfb91c.2a96132a-AT- aol.com> Michael Barraclough has already answered you about the longways version. >>> We could cite the Millar reference for the circle mixer. Would that be the Hugh Mellor edition of John Playford's English Dancing Master? ... It's listed on CDSS's book list. >>> The Hugh Mellor edition is a transcription of the 1st edition of Playford. As with most transcriptions there are errors, but overall it's a good book. The circular mixer is in John Fitzhugh Millar's "Elizabethan Country Dances." From an historical standpoint, use his book with caution. From a "let's have fun and dance" standpoint it's not bad. --Charlene -- It is not so much our friends' help that help us as the confident knowledge that they will help us. --Epicurus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:23:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:21:07 -0500 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: Source for Halfe Hannkin To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D652B93.6C1CE95F-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: "Priscilla M. Burrage" wrote: > Do you teach a mixer to beginners? Or just the circular version? The circular version from Millar is a mixer version. I've not found the mixer aspect too confusing for beginners. I've even taught the version to children. The circular mixer is the version I see done most often. Are MECDers not familar with it? Which version do they dance? --Charlene -- It is not so much our friends' help that help us as the confident knowledge that they will help us. --Epicurus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:47:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:42:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Possible ECD gig, Sacramento, 9/21 To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KLLIJ8G5MIHP9J7A-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- I received the following note. I know nothing more about this gig than is included in the note; it will avail nothing to ask me about it. (I am busy that weekend so not even considering taking this myself.) Here's the note: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am the maid of honor for a September (21st - Harvest Moon) bride holding a Renaissance style wedding out of doors in Sacramento. Much of the wedding has been hand-made (the beer, the mead, my dress, her dress) and we are currently polishing the tankards! We would love to have someone there to lead English Country Dancing. I know this is late notice, but could you point us in a direction? Thanks, Amy Seiwert aseiwert-AT- speakeasy.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can help Amy out, please write to her directly (and cc me so I know what's going on). It sounds as though they might want RenFaire-style ECD, so this might be appropriate for Pryanksters/Helena/Bruno. If you get the gig, write back to the list so other people know not to bother. Thanks, -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:54:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:07:35 -0400 From: Graham.Christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ' "Tom Cook produced a version of the dance for 20th century dancers such that the dance starts improper and no-one stands out, you just move straight over to the end of the other line. This stops men having to hold hands, side and turn other men (and women likewise)." Despite Tom Cook's easily-demonstrated brilliance, I have long been appalled at such retroactive super-straightenings of English Country Dances (as in Childgrove; as in Kill Him With Kindness). "Improper" is not Halfe Hannikin's formation; nor that of the other two I've cited. Perhaps one of the distinctions of HH is--in addition to its "single minor" progression--the surprise of dancing a few rounds with your own gender. Mind you, I am not interested in rewriting the past such that there would seem to be more same-gender contact than there was. But neither does it make sense to me so that there is even *less* than there was. In 1651 and 1698 and 1730, dancers did not seem to fear that the moral fabric of society would begin to unravel just because last night Lord B--- did a two-hand turn with Lord M--, and Lady M-- with Lady R--in the same manner at the same time--why should we be less bold? Moreover, no matter *what* you do, there is *some* same-gender contact. In every circle. In many lead-away-n-backs. In many lead-across-n-castbacks. I have heard and understood many friends and acquaintances who remarked to me, "I didn't come here to dance with [my own gender]; I came here to dance with [that other gender]." Very well, but ECD involves not just the way of a man with a maid, but your neighbor, diagonal, set, line, and room. Graham Christian Technical Writer, Product Management Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247 Email address: graham.christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Group web address: http://www.risk.sungard.com SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare 3 Post Office Square Boston, MA 02109 "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:13:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:14:18 -0400 From: Alixe Dancer Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thank you, Graham. Gendered and Free, Alixe > > ' "Tom Cook produced a version of the dance for 20th century dancers such > that the dance starts improper and no-one stands out, you just move > straight over to the end of the other line. This stops men having to hold > hands, side and turn other men (and women likewise)." > > Despite Tom Cook's easily-demonstrated brilliance, I have long been > appalled at such retroactive super-straightenings of English Country Dances > (as in Childgrove; as in Kill Him With Kindness). "Improper" is not Halfe > Hannikin's formation; nor that of the other two I've cited. Perhaps one of > the distinctions of HH is--in addition to its "single minor" > progression--the surprise of dancing a few rounds with your own gender. > > Mind you, I am not interested in rewriting the past such that there would > seem to be more same-gender contact than there was. But neither does it > make sense to me so that there is even *less* than there was. In 1651 and > 1698 and 1730, dancers did not seem to fear that the moral fabric of > society would begin to unravel just because last night Lord B--- did a > two-hand turn with Lord M--, and Lady M-- with Lady R--in the same manner > at the same time--why should we be less bold? > > Moreover, no matter *what* you do, there is *some* same-gender contact. In > every circle. In many lead-away-n-backs. In many lead-across-n- castbacks. > > I have heard and understood many friends and acquaintances who remarked to > me, "I didn't come here to dance with [my own gender]; I came here to dance > with [that other gender]." Very well, but ECD involves not just the way of > a man with a maid, but your neighbor, diagonal, set, line, and room. > > Graham Christian > Technical Writer, Product Management > Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247 > Email address: graham.christian-AT- risk.sungard.com > Group web address: http://www.risk.sungard.com > SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare > 3 Post Office Square > Boston, MA 02109 > > "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." > > > > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify > the system manager. > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by > MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. > > > ********************************************************************** > > > -- Alixe Dancer alixed-AT- options.org Mon-Fri cell # 541 643-4193 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:55:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:54:44 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Graham wrote: >Despite Tom Cook's easily-demonstrated brilliance, I have long been >appalled at such retroactive super-straightenings of English Country Dances >(as in Childgrove; as in Kill Him With Kindness). "Improper" is not Halfe >Hannikin's formation; nor that of the other two I've cited. Last time I taught Childgrove I taught it with all couples proper and no one fussed. It was a young, non-MECD crowd, though, and only a few had any idea there was a "straightened" version. But I had just been wondering over the last month or so....where did the improper setup for country dances in general come from? It's noticeably NOT a feature of Wilson's Regency-era "System", but by mid-19th century you have a whole slew of dances with "Sicilian circle" type setups with half the couples improper. I'm very slim on 18thc resources; was this a common setup then as well? Or even a substantial minority setup? I'm totally failing to bring to mind ANY dance before 1800 that employs it, but I'm sure there must be one somewhere - can anyone point me to one, or better yet, many? (Note: I'm looking for historical references, not modern ones - as seen with Childgrove, just because it says "17xx" doesn't mean it was quite like that in the original....) Any pointers appreciated! Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:09:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:27:14 -0400 From: Graham.Christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There are some. King of Poland; The Woman's the Man; Bartlett House. Lincoln or Bolton; 3s and 4s in Lulle Me. A few others (I think there may be another Bray). But not many. Graham Christian Technical Writer, Product Management Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247 Email address: graham.christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Group web address: http://www.risk.sungard.com SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare 3 Post Office Square Boston, MA 02109 "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:37:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KLLOGPOPSAHPBT1Z-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susan-AT- generalist.org writes: > But I had just been wondering over the last month or so....where > did the improper setup for country dances in general come from? > It's noticeably NOT a feature of Wilson's Regency-era "System", > but by mid-19th century you have a whole slew of dances with > "Sicilian circle" type setups with half the couples improper. > I'm very slim on 18thc resources; was this a common setup then > as well? Or even a substantial minority setup? I'm totally > failing to bring to mind ANY dance before 1800 that employs it, > but I'm sure there must be one somewhere - can anyone point me to > one, or better yet, many? I can't, off the top of my head, point to a longways country dance pre-1800 that employs an improper setup. (I think you'll find improperness in two-couple Playford dances, though.) More relevantly to Sicilian circles, however, are cotillions and then quadrilles, where the head and foot couples (viewed as a minor set) are improper, and the same for the sides. Here's the earliest Sicilian Circle notation I have handy. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Hillgrove, 1865: SICILIAN CIRCLE (called Sicilienne Circle in the table of contents) Music in Two-Four Time - Four Parts 1. Right and Left - 8 bars. 2. Balance to Partners, and turn " [This balance is a seven step chasse.] 3. Ladies' Chain " 4. All Promenade - Passing once and a half round, and finish facing the next couple, with whom the same figure is again repeated. ------------------------------------------------------------------- (Incidentally, Wirth's 1903 Circassian Circle is the same as Hillgrove's Sicilian Circle except that figure 1 is "hands across.") These figures are familiar to anybody doing quadrilles, and a lot of quadrille figures involve just the heads and then just the sides, so it seems likely to me that improperness in longways country-dance is completely irrelevant to improperness in Sicilian circles; they're just interacting in the same formation two couples interact in a quadrille, using similar figures, and for an audience that's familiar with quadrilles. (Okay, the promenade isn't ordinarily progressive, but that's not that big a deal.) It wouldn't be that surprising if there were a later back-formation of improper longways country dances from Sicilian circle. I don't know when contradances became mostly improper, but the ones that appear in Victorian dance manuals are still proper. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:47:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:47:35 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200208222147.WAA27308-AT- galahad.tgis.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Chivers Modernd Dancing Master, London, 1822 describes Sicillian Circles. I also recollect seing a Wilson Manual describing the formation amd referring to it as a means of relieving the boredom of only having the top couple start a dance. Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:37:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:36:53 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Improper formation. Was Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000101c24aba$e819e9a0$43c4c943-AT- g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susan wrote: "...where did the improper setup for country dances in general come from?" and "I'm totally failing to bring to mind ANY dance before 1800 that employs it, but I'm sure there must be one somewhere - can anyone point me to one, or better yet, many?" Not a precedent, but perhaps of some interest, is "A Health to Betty" in 1651 Playford, a longways progressive dance in three parts, in proper formation to start. The chorus of Part I reads: First Cu. sides, turne her once and a halfe about. Sides each with the 2. and turne them. Doe thus to the last, the rest following and doing the like. For a time, then, the 1s dance on the improper side, dancing with the opposite sex, as they move down the line. (If I have my wits about me, I think the 1s also dance with the opposite sex as they move back up the line, since all couples would have crossed over as they reached the top...?) (This sequence puts me in mind of the *entire* setup for Dargason; it's as if Dargason's devisor had decided to dispense with The Figures and create a dance consisting entirely of The Choruses.) Other dances in 1651 Playford that look as if they might operate the same way are "The Punk's Delight," "Souldiers life," "The London Gentlewoman, or the Hemp-Dresser" (last chorus), "Irish Trot." There may be others among the "longways for as many as will." Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:16:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:11:48 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Improper formation. Was Hannikin Halved To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001c24ae9$b627eb20$0aa601d5-AT- michael> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There are 20 or more longways single minor dances in Playford (eg, the 1st figure in A Health to Betty as described below) and the early C18 French orseographic sources. However, these dances are not "duple minor improper" dances. Just as a duple minor dance needs two couples and a triple minor dance needs 3 couples, so a single minor (I started using the term 30 years ago, can anyone better that?) dance needs just one couple. As there is only one couple the progression is achieved by the people changing places. Thus the first couple dance with each other and change. Then the 1st woman dances with the second man and the first man with the second woman., and so on. This is very different from a duple minor improper. If I recollect correctly, there are some dances where at the end of the first time through the dance the 1st couple end improper below the 2nd couple. This formation is not described anywhere so we have to guess as to whether the next couple also start improper so as to create a mirrored image of the first time through the dance or whether they remain proper and the dancers dance as though the first couple is still proper. Michael Barraclough http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU] On Behalf Of Patricia Ruggiero Sent: 23 August 2002 16:37 To: ECD-AT- ssrl04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Improper formation. Was Hannikin Halved Susan wrote: "...where did the improper setup for country dances in general come from?" and "I'm totally failing to bring to mind ANY dance before 1800 that employs it, but I'm sure there must be one somewhere - can anyone point me to one, or better yet, many?" Not a precedent, but perhaps of some interest, is "A Health to Betty" in 1651 Playford, a longways progressive dance in three parts, in proper formation to start. The chorus of Part I reads: First Cu. sides, turne her once and a halfe about. Sides each with the 2. and turne them. Doe thus to the last, the rest following and doing the like. For a time, then, the 1s dance on the improper side, dancing with the opposite sex, as they move down the line. (If I have my wits about me, I think the 1s also dance with the opposite sex as they move back up the line, since all couples would have crossed over as they reached the top...?) (This sequence puts me in mind of the *entire* setup for Dargason; it's as if Dargason's devisor had decided to dispense with The Figures and create a dance consisting entirely of The Choruses.) Other dances in 1651 Playford that look as if they might operate the same way are "The Punk's Delight," "Souldiers life," "The London Gentlewoman, or the Hemp-Dresser" (last chorus), "Irish Trot." There may be others among the "longways for as many as will." Pat --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.362 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 07/05/02 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:50:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:50:06 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Improper formation To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001c24b10$9210ce10$40c4c943-AT- g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Michael wrote: >... so a single minor (I started using the term 30 years ago, can anyone better that?) dance needs just one couple. No, I can't. I first used the term in the mid-90s when teaching "The Black Alman" to our MECD group, as part of occasional interjections of historical information. >As there is only one couple the progression is achieved by the people changing places. It hadn't occurred to me to describe these longways dances in 1651 Playford as "single minors," owing to the necessity of there being at least one other couple with whom the 1s change places. Upon further reflection I would agree with you, except that I would characterize "The Black Alman" as a single-minor, nonprogressive dance, and those in Playford as single-minor progressive dances. >This is very different from a duple minor improper. Yes, it is, and I hope that you didn't think I was saying otherwise. My intent was to alert Susan to a point of historical interest. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:51:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:52:16 -0700 From: Robin Hayden Subject: Legacy To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3D68FD2F.F5BA6D67-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353; x-mac-type=54455854; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear friends, I'm writing on behalf of CDSS Publications Coordinator Pat MacPherson to announce that our beautiful new book, Legacy: 50 Years of Dance and Song (Allison Thompson, editor), is now available! From our web page: "Legacy compiles an estimated 75% of the songs and dances published from 1940 to the arbitrary cutoff date of 1993. It contains 52 American dances (mostly New England contra style), 46 English dances (mostly in the historical or "Playford" style, with music), 18 songs with music, and 13 tunes. Among the dances are essays, and remembrances, poems, letters and interviews. This book is more than just the sum of these parts; it is a photograph of the Country Dance and Song Society and its members over the last half century. The word, Legacy, speaks to the art that we have inherited, that we mold to suit our present tastes and needs and that we pass on to the next generation for their own use. Tempos speed up or slow down, dances are modified to suit prevailing trends, song verses are forgotten and dropped or else rewritten, but the quality of the material endures. Included are many dances by well-known contemporary composers and dance interpreters. You will find such English dances as Jack's Health, Soho Square, The Punch Bowl and Mistwold; songs such as the Good Ale, The Miller's Will and The Soldier's Return; American dances such as Fairfield Fancy, Mary Cay's Reel, many other great contras and some classic square dances from the 1950's; plus tunes by Jay Ungar, Larry Unger and Paul Prestopino and others." More details, plus ordering information, at http://www.cdss.org/sales/legacy.html Take a look! This is (IMHO, of course) the most useful and informative compendium since Keller and Shimer's Playford Ball book. Testimonials from any of you who caught a glimpse of it at English Week, or (lucky devils) have already received your contributor's copy? Robin Hayden wearing a sweater in Amherst, MA, where it has FINALLY cooled off enough to think ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:04:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:03:40 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Regency dance experiment To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Only Alan actually requested this, but I thought I'd inflict it on the entire list. This is entirely about my little adventure today in trying to do Regency country dance as-she-were-done-back-then. If you have no interest in this or can't imagine why anyone would want to do this (which is not explained herein, it's a given), move along now, nothing to read here.... Short version: it worked, and I'm very bouncy about it. Long version: I'd never done anything quite like this before, attempting to not just follow dance style but follow Regency "format" as well. In fact, I'm not sure this has actually all been tried simultaneously since it was last fashionable in the first quarter of the 19th century - certainly none of my workshop group had done it before. Here are the elements that are typical of Regency-era country dance and un-typical of MECD (in my admittedly limited experience of that form, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I have the wrong impression) that I was testing: - any music of suitable length can go with any dance - all dances made up on the spot by leading lady - all triple minor sets, and without teaching "twos and threes" - start with the top couple and progress "virally" down the set, ending with everyone back to original spots - dances not walked through, just said once and then called briefly - Regency steps "for those who know" So, to prepare for this: First, I wanted to keep it short and simple. I was worried about general confusion with the made-up dances and the fact that most people would learn it by watching rather than walking through it. So I decided in advance that for a first try, we'd limit it to 16-bar dances, in a combination of figures either long-short(P)-short or short-short-short(P)-short. (P) indicated the progressive figure. A short figure is four bars, a long figure is eight bars. I then skimmed through my manuals looking for the simplest figures possible - things like "turn your partners" and "cast off one couple". No heys, no rights and lefts of any variety, absolutely NO "true lover's knot", etc. Dead easy stuff. I made up a "cheat card" with Wilson-style charts of the "pick one from column A" variety and listed the possible figures for each part of the dance. Before we started dancing I did about five minutes of "here are different figures" and had everyone walk through them very quickly so everyone knew them all. How it worked in practice: as each lady moved up to the top of the set, I gave her the card and let her assemble a dance; she muttered it to me, and I announced it to the group. We did five dances, with five ladies getting calls. The ladies had earlier made the happy discovery that Regency waltzing is pretty egalitarian (symmetrical hold, less lead/follow than later style), and the chance to be in charge even more in the country dancing made them pretty frisky. The first dance, we walked through three progressions, then I called. The second dance, we walked through twice and I called off and on. The third dance, we didn't walk through at all, I just called. By the fifth dance, I was only calling when a new couple started down the set. We had a few minor problems - people not alert to their turn coming, or occasionally confusing a figure (two hands or just right hands) - but never had to actually restart; they were able to catch the mistakes and go on. The on-the-spot dance composition was the major "weirdness" relative to most ECD, but here's a few other details: I didn't change the music, partly because I wanted people to not associate particular music with particular dances, and partly because I have a limited number of pieces looped to be long enough to dance like this to. I'm going to have to loop some others, obviously. Being a tiny little group, we had a short set, which is useful in some ways - no one waits long to get into the dance, and we could move through dances very, very quickly. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy having more people! It just means fewer ladies would get calls - but to some degree a call is an honor; the first call would go to the most socially senior woman dancing at a ball. Given how long large sets can take, I fully expect that not every lady would get one at a typical ball. For the most part, we were walking through the figures, but for the final dance I told them that anyone who knew the proper steps could use them if their partner or the person they were figuring with also knew them - no mowing down the folks who were just walking through. This worked out nicely, with people shifting back and forth from steps to walking depending on who they were dancing with. Finally, on the triple minor thing. I hate how triple minors are sometimes taught, with a lot of fuss about changing from twos to threes to twos to threes and so on. Confuses the heck out of me. So I pretty much ignored those little details in favor of a constant refrain of "know who your actives are!" I told people they were part of a set when either of the two couples above them were active, and if not, they were out. Some of the figures included all three couples; most were two couples only or just the actives (an unavoidable result of choosing Really Easy Figures - the three-couple ones skew harder). I had them watch the actives closely and put the burden on the actives to really lead the dance. There was not the slightest confusion: when an active couple was right above you, you danced with 'em. When the active couple progresses below you, look up for another active couple to come down the set. When you arrive at the top, wait til two couples assemble below you, then go active. Whether one was a "two" or a "three" was irrelevant - one simply did what was necessary to help the active couple do the figure. And it seems to have worked. Less relevant to ECD, we also did the fourth figure of the French Quadrille, "La Trenise" (wherein the men get to be frisky by dancing eight-bar solos) and a bit of the Slow French Waltz, with march steps to lead in and four arm positions (two alternates each for marching and turning). We devoted about 75 minutes to those and about 40 minutes to the country dancing. So, next month (September 22nd, to be precise) we continue the experiment. I will teach waltz again and another quadrille figure or something. And for the country dancing, I'll make up new cheat cards with slightly harder figures and probably move on to 24-bar country dances. Eventually I'd like to work up to 32-bar; the standard lengths for Regency seem to be 32 and 48, with a few wacko ones as high as 64 or 96 bars (and we just will NOT go there...) But I can work up to that slowly; I'd rather people felt confident. I also want to be able to move the progression around - typically, it's somewhere in the middle of the dance, but I do find the occasional one where the progression is at the very end, or even at the very beginning and people were already asking about doing more figures post-progression so they could satisfy an aesthetic urge for symmetry. ("But we want to lead through the top AND bottom!") I would like to encourage all the ladies, at least, to develop aesthetic preferences in figure combinations, so this is a good sign. My final three (Oct-Nov-Dec) workshops of the year will shift to 1860's waltz, polka, country dances, and quadrille, but the Regency will then resume in January for a full year culminating in a ball at the end of 2003. Comments and suggestions and - of course - more people welcome. Susan Tentative NYC workshop dates: Sep 22 - Regency Oct 20 - 1860's polka & country dance Nov 3 - 1860's waltz & country dance Dec 8 - 1860's quadrille each workshop is *pre*ceded by a one-hour lesson in Regency stepping. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:32:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:32:12 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Regency dance experiment To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000201c24cb9$8c85e0c0$fdc4c943-AT- g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Very enjoyable and informative recounting, as to How They Did It Then and How to Make It Work Now. Wish I could be there for your classes, but central Virginia is a bit far......I try to take comfort from your comment that SCD is like Regency, but that doesn't quite make up for it. Pat Susan wrote: "If you have no interest in this or can't imagine why anyone would want to do this (which is not explained herein, it's a given), move along now, nothing to read here...." ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 04:53:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:51:23 -0300 From: John Wood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Regency dance experiment To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3D6A163B.EF0DAF94-AT- accesscable.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Hi, Susan: Just to say thank you for sharing your experience. I found it very interesting indeed and it goes to show that the knowledge of the dances by the "leading" ladies had to be considerable. So different from the modern-day approach to dancing "ancient" dances! Best wishes, John Bedford, Nova Scotia > . . . . . I thought I'd inflict it on the entire list. > This is entirely about my little adventure today in > trying to do Regency country dance as-she-were-done-back-then. If you > have no interest in this or can't imagine why anyone would want to do > this (which is not explained herein, it's a given), move along now, > nothing to read here.... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 05:28:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:27:23 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Regency dance experiment To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John writes: >I found it very interesting indeed and it goes to >show that the knowledge of the dances by the >"leading" ladies had to be considerable. It's a real pleasure for the ladies to get to "lead" in any way - it doesn't happen all that much in historical social dancing. Well, there were also complaints at the time that no one ever called for really long dances or difficult figures! The published manuals pretty much support this - the overwhelming majority are relatively short and use a very limited figure vocabulary. My vague working theory is that all the manuals of "New Country Dances for the Year xxxx" really didn't include any new *dances*, in the sense of actual figures, at all - they were books of new dance *music* which, if one looks carefully, contained duplicates of all the same old dance figures. I think that was less true in the 18th century, but by the Regency era country dancing was in many ways in either its decline or its last wild roar of decadence before going mostly out of fashion in the ballroom. (Replaced by the quadrille and the round dances - waltz, polka, etc.) I am told, but have never personally seen, that sets of cards existed that one could use as a sort of parlor game of dance reconstruction - each card had a figure and one could shuffle them around until a dance was created. I'd love to get my hands on a set, or even a picture of a set. >So different from the modern-day approach to dancing >"ancient" dances! In-deeeeed. I wonder if I can make it catch on? :) Susan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:41:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:41:10 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Regency dance experiment To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <001001c24d17$007d6680$fdc4c943-AT- g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susan wrote: >I am told, but have never personally seen, that sets of cards existed that one could use as a sort of parlor game of dance reconstruction - each card had a figure and one could shuffle them around until a dance was created. I'd love to get my hands on a set, or even a picture of a set. You probably know someone who attended the Amherst Assembly in 1996 (or thereabouts). We each received a sourcebook. Page 113 is a photocopy from Karl Heinz Taubert's _Die Anglaise mit dem Portefeuille Englischer Tanze von Joseph Lanz_, Berlin, 1784 (Zurich: Musikhaus Pan A.G., 1983). Shows 20 cards from each of 4 suits ("A card is drawn from each suit....") Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:48:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:52:54 -0400 From: David Woolf Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Atlanta's annual Contra/English Weekend is just around the corner! To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225230.03408568-AT- pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4ogLMenQFw0l33MtWE+BkQ)" --Boundary_(ID_4ogLMenQFw0l33MtWE+BkQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Atlanta's premiere weekend of dance is less than three weeks away! - September 13-15. All details can be found at http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~dwoolf/weekend.html. If you have trouble getting to that site for any reason, send me your address and I'll send you a flyer. Highlights: Exquisite music by: Earl Gaddis Jacqueline Schwab Daron Douglas Superlative teaching and calling by Gene Murrow Contra dance Friday night English dancing Saturday morning through Sunday afternoon The most fun you can have standing up. If you haven't signed up yet, now's the time! Write me with any questions. Hope to see you there! -David Woolf ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ English Country Dance Atlanta --Boundary_(ID_4ogLMenQFw0l33MtWE+BkQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Atlanta's premiere weekend of dance is less than three weeks away! - September 13-15. All details can be found at http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~dwoolf/weekend.html. If you have trouble getting to that site for any reason, send me your address and I'll send you a flyer.

Highlights:

Exquisite music by:

Earl Gaddis
Jacqueline Schwab
Daron Douglas


Superlative teaching and calling by Gene Murrow

Contra dance Friday night
English dancing Saturday morning through Sunday afternoon

The most fun you can have standing up. If you haven't signed up yet, now's the time!

Write me with any questions. Hope to see you there!

-David Woolf


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
English Country Dance Atlanta
--Boundary_(ID_4ogLMenQFw0l33MtWE+BkQ)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:48:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:48:46 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Returned mail - user unknown To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <62.24d6b194.2a9cdd3e-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have just had returned no less than five messages I sent to this list in July! Can anyone explain why they should have bounced back, with a message that the address 'djb-AT- macguys.com' (think that's right) had fatal errors when they had already appeared on this digest anyway?!!! Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:58:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 03:38:18 -0400 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Returned mail - user unknown To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827033548.01dc8b08-AT- popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I also had the 2 messages I sent to the list come back to haunt me, Nic--looks like some sort of virus at work. Alan, any words of advice? Sharon Green At 09:48 AM 8/27/2002 -0400, you wrote: >I have just had returned no less than five messages I sent to this list in >July! Can anyone explain why they should have bounced back, with a message >that the address 'djb-AT- macguys.com' (think that's right) had fatal errors when >they had already appeared on this digest anyway?!!! > >Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. >http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:59:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:59:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Returned mail - user unknown To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 SallenNic-AT- aol.com wrote: > I have just had returned no less than five messages I sent to this list in > July! Can anyone explain why they should have bounced back, with a message > that the address 'djb-AT- macguys.com' (think that's right) had fatal errors when > they had already appeared on this digest anyway?!!! > > Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. > http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com Hi! Nic: We had an interesting virus aournd in July. Your system failed to process it, recognizing it as a virus address. I had the same experience, but got caught by another, which used my son as the sender. A few days later, I had updates my virus-protect setup and was running again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 07:00:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:00:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Returned mail - user unknown To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Sharon Green wrote: > I also had the 2 messages I sent to the list come back to haunt me, > Nic--looks like some sort of virus at work. Alan, any words of advice? > Sharon Green Update your virus protect. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:23:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:17:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KLSAVGPSF8HPGMHB-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- Roger Broseus was kind enough to forward one of the bounce messages he received; this is essential in debugging this kind of problem. Short answer: No virus, nothing wrong with the mailing list; the software at macguys.com is screwed up. The headers show Roger's original message went out August 1; it left playford (SSRL04), left SLAC, and was given to the appropriate message exchange machine for macguys.com, which held onto it for four weeks and then decided that djb was never going to be a good alias and bounced the message. However, the macguys.com mail software didn't honor the Errors-to: header, which would have brought the bounces back to me; it instead figured out the original poster (Roger, in this case) and bounced back to him. Everyone who posted to the ECD list in August might get bounces of this kind for the next four weeks. There's nothing I can do about it - the bounces originate at macguys.com, which is not under my control. My advice: Just delete the bounces and don't worry about it. If you feel like doing something about it, forward your bounce message to postmaster-AT- macguys.com and tell them to get a mailer that honors the Errors-to: header. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:51:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:51:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Returned mail - user unknown To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020827175102.1230.qmail-AT- web20709.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Sharon Green wrote: > I also had the 2 messages I sent to the list come back to > haunt me, > Nic--looks like some sort of virus at work. Alan, any > words of advice? > Sharon Green > > At 09:48 AM 8/27/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >I have just had returned no less than five messages I > sent to this list in > >July! Can anyone explain why they should have bounced > back, with a message > >that the address 'djb-AT- macguys.com' (think that's right) > had fatal errors when > >they had already appeared on this digest anyway?!!! > > > >Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. HREF="aol://1722:chathelp"> > >http://www.nicolasbroadbridge.com Same here: Ben Stein > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:54:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:58:08 +0100 From: Mike Courthold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Zesty Contra Dance on 7/9/02 in Chippenham, Wilts, UK To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827164243.043629c0-AT- sirius.asd1.rl.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT What: Zesty Contra Dance When: Saturday 7/9/02 at 8 - 11:30pm Where: Hardenhuish School, Hardenhuish Lane, Chippenham, Wiltshire, SN14 6RJ, UK Who: Mike Courthold & Alterations Food: American Supper - so please bring a plate of food to share Drinks: Soft drinks available, otherwise bring your own Tcks: £5.50 on the door £5.00 in advance Map: http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?X=391000&Y=174500&scale=10000&coordsys=gb Sponsored by: Wiltshire Folk Association Further details and/or tickets from: Geoff Elwell 3 Sarum Way, Melksham, SN12 6BJ 01225-703650 or Mike Courthold 01488-684232 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:10:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:58:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Roger W. Broseus" Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <58820.148.184.176.32.1030471091.squirrel-AT- www.weitzman.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01KLSAVGPSF8HPGMHB-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> > ECDers -- > > Roger Broseus was kind enough to forward one of the bounce messages he > received; this is essential in debugging this kind of problem. Thanks for the acknowledgement . . . not needed but appreciated. Appreciated even more, Alan: your efforts on our behalves (behalfs?). /Roger > Short answer: No virus, nothing wrong with the mailing list; the > software at macguys.com is screwed up. > > The headers show Roger's original message went out August 1; it left > playford (SSRL04), left SLAC, and was given to the appropriate message > exchange machine for macguys.com, which held onto it for four weeks and > then decided that djb was never going to be a good alias and bounced > the message. > > However, the macguys.com mail software didn't honor the Errors-to: > header, which would have brought the bounces back to me; it instead > figured out the original poster (Roger, in this case) and bounced back > to him. > > Everyone who posted to the ECD list in August might get bounces of this > kind for the next four weeks. There's nothing I can do about it - the > bounces originate at macguys.com, which is not under my control. > > My advice: Just delete the bounces and don't worry about it. > > If you feel like doing something about it, forward your bounce message > to postmaster-AT- macguys.com and tell them to get a mailer that honors > the Errors-to: header. > > -- Alan > > =============================================================================== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, > Menlo Park CA 94025 > =============================================================================== -- Roger W. Broseus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:10:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:02:15 -0400 From: franch-AT- juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Center for Fawkesian Pursuits To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020827.210417.-324179.7.franch-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is off topic, I suppose, but of possible interest to list subscribers. A fellow in Baltimore named Conrad Bladey runs the Center for Fawkesian Pursuits. It has a fine web site, noted below. Mr. Bladey describes his organization thusly: "This is an organization, loose, of folks interested in Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot of 1605. We conduct all types of research. To date we have published the definitive book of chants related to the holiday. We are now working on a Guy Fawkes Treasury which will contain the chants as well as all major literary works mentioning or derived from the plot and or celebration. Toward this end we are now transcribing all plays produced for the London stage from 1605 through the 19th century on the topic. "For more on the plot and on our work go to: http://www.bcpl.net/~cbladey/guy/html/mainz.html." List subscribers will recongize some bobos in his descriptions (see Morris dancing) and he verges close to anti-Catholicism, but he does pay attention to dance, and although I'm opposed to capitol punishment, the animation of Fawkes being burned at the stake is clever. November 4th is coming. Be ready. Mike Franch Baltimore Md. USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:27:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:26:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Center for Fawkesian Pursuits To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KLSVXM5VV0HPH2AQ-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mike Franch writes: > November 4th is coming. Be ready. Indeed. (It's my birthday, so prepare to burn me in effigy, etc.) On the other hand, Guy Fawkes Day is the Fifth of November. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:52:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:55:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: FS: Elizabethan Country Dances (Millar) To: English Country Dance List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am not a regular member of this list, but Alan Winston has given me permission to post this notice here. (Thanks, Alan!) I have four hardcover copies of John Fitzhugh Millar's "Elizabethan Country Dances" for sale. For those of you who don't know the book, here's part of the back-cover blurb: "This book contains a brief history of Country Dancing, instructions in the basic figures, and music and directions for 86 dances with about 100 tunes -- including 16 400-year-old Square Dances and 18 Contras -- with song-words to accompany the tunes, plus a bibliography and discography. The dances are graded from easy to difficult." Most of the dances are from Playford. (I'm sure most of the people reading this list know more about the book than I do -- my field is actually costume, not dance.) These copies are hardbound, 114 pages, 9x12 inches, and essentially in new condition. I bought them the year the book was published (1985) from the publisher's rep who was marketing them. The books were probably intended to be trade-show samples, but there's no evidence they were ever so much as opened. The bindings have some scuff marks from repeated packing and unpacking, but the inside is pristine. The cover is basic green library-style binding with the front and back paper covers glued over that; I'm not sure if that's the way all the hardbacks looked, or whether these copies were prepared for sales samples before the full hardback run was completed and bound. I'm asking $30 for each, plus shipping (to be determined from actual cost of postage and padded envelope). If you're interested, please email me directly. I'll sell them first-come first-served, one per person, and I'll post to the list when the copies are all spoken for. --Robin Netherton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:20:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:20:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Returned mail - user unknown To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Odd. The prevalent virus these days is getting messages I did NOT send bounced back (because it forges addresses). Will Linden wlinden-AT- panix.com http://www.ecben.net/ Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:27:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:20:52 -0400 From: franch-AT- juno.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Center for Fawkesian Pursuits To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020828.002333.-815963.0.franch-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT One gets ready for the 5th on the 4th. On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes: > Mike Franch writes: > > > November 4th is coming. Be ready. > > Indeed. (It's my birthday, so prepare to burn me in effigy, etc.) > > On the other hand, Guy Fawkes Day is the Fifth of November. > > -- Alan > > ========================================================================= ====== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: > 650/926-3056 > Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park > CA 94025 > ========================================================================= ====== > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:22:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:20:04 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Center for Fawkesian Pursuits To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <005401c24e52$917d7bc0$1a68550c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20020828.002333.-815963.0.franch-AT- juno.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: <> No, one gets ready for the Firth on the 4th. Peace, Paul (beginning to splutter) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:11:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:10:11 -0400 From: Mary Stafford Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Knoxville Dancing? To: 'English Country Dance List' Message-ID: <01C24E83.C8BE6B40-AT- ppp0c026.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I plan to be in the Knoxville area from the 17th through the 22nd of September. Any ECD dancing to be had during that time? Mary Stafford (a Boston Centre dancer) mes-AT- theworld.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:31:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:33:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: FS: Elizabethan Country Dances (Millar) To: English Country Dance List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT All the copies I have of this book are now spoken for. I'm glad they'll be going to people who can use them! --Robin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:22:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:23:18 -0400 From: Carolyn Worthing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: MECD To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The term MECD has been showing up lately...what does the M stand for? thanks, carolyn worthing chapel hill, NC ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:35:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:43:16 -0400 From: Graham.Christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ... To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT "Modern." As in "Thoroughly Modern Millie." Graham Christian Technical Writer, Product Management Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247 Email address: graham.christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Group web address: http://www.risk.sungard.com SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare 3 Post Office Square Boston, MA 02109 "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:44:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:49:42 +0100 From: Trev Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Please Ignore - just testing! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <009f01c24ed4$749bdc40$a84479d5-AT- trevormo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If this gets through - yippee! My previous email messages to the list have been rejected for the last few months. At last I have got round to getting another email supplier, so hope this works! Trev ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:22:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:20:16 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: MECD To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <001601c24f1b$c309b5e0$736b550c-AT- paulstam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <> Modern. The term is a parallel usage with "Modern Western Square Dancing", or "MWSD". It refers to the modern (20th century and, now, 21st) interpretations of ECD by folks like Sharp, Shaw, Herman and all the other folks who have contributed to the revival. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:44:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:44:24 -0400 From: JoAnne Rawls Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ... To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU BCC: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Oops! Sorry, Graham...should have kept the cloak on!

Regards,

JoAnne


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================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:50:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:50:17 -0400 From: JoAnne Rawls Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ... To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU BCC: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_tHcs8tb+RtX8FY10E1TrMg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_tHcs8tb+RtX8FY10E1TrMg) Content-type: text/html Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Well, that made no sense at all. My apologies to the list. I had replied to Carolyn's question about MECD before I saw Graham's response, and told her I was lifting the cloak of invisibility to respond, since no one else had. You seem to have received my olive branch to Graham, without my response to Carolyn. Technology...bah!

Re-cloaking now...

JoAnne


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--Boundary_(ID_tHcs8tb+RtX8FY10E1TrMg) Content-type: message/rfc822 Return-path: Received: from mc2-f38.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.237.45]) by mc2-s19.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:46:36 -0700 Received: from smtp1.slac.stanford.edu ([134.79.18.82]) by mc2-f38.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:45:21 -0700 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.smtp1.slac.stanford.edu by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) id <0H1M00001KE8TE-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu>; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu (ssrl04.slac.stanford.edu [134.79.33.14]) by smtp1.slac.stanford.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #37665) with SMTP id <0H1M00IKYKE6PV-AT- smtp1.slac.stanford.edu>; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:44:24 -0400 From: JoAnne Rawls Subject: Re: ... Sender: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Bcc: Errors-to: owner-ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Warnings-to: <> Reply-to: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Listname: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2002 21:45:21.0972 (UTC) FILETIME=[6010FF40:01C24FA5]

Oops! Sorry, Graham...should have kept the cloak on!

Regards,

JoAnne


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--Boundary_(ID_tHcs8tb+RtX8FY10E1TrMg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:26:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:26:24 -0400 From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: modernity and its discontents To: ecd-digest-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU BCC: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT So, are we all supposed to say "modern" now, "MECD" instead of "ECD"? In officially sanctioned conversations and communications. Be warned: the "modern" era of western culture is generally regarded by academics as being long over, perhaps finished by WW2 or else the 1950s, with the invention of the Edsel I suppose. Then comes "postmodern." I'm not sure if we are alleged to be at present in the "postmodern", "postpostmodern," "posttoastiemodern", or "what?" era. Steve C. Steve Corrsin 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel 248-661-6283 fax 248-661-6288 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:37:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:39:36 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: At 10:26 AM -0400 8/30/02, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote: >Be warned: the "modern" era of western culture is generally regarded >by academics as being long over, Amazing that academic training has been so poor for so long that such a term would even been used for the concept! What an astounding inability to comprehend the basic concept of time! -- Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:37:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:39:36 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: At 10:26 AM -0400 8/30/02, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote: >Be warned: the "modern" era of western culture is generally regarded >by academics as being long over, Amazing that academic training has been so poor for so long that such a term would even been used for the concept! What an astounding inability to comprehend the basic concept of time! -- Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 07:42:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 11:00:18 -0400 From: Graham.Christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Stephen (and others): I myself would never insist on the M before the E, C, and D--I simply supplied information. I see that it is used primarily by list contributors who do some amount of what we might call historical or historically-informed dance (Renaissance, Baroque, Regency, 19th-c. ballroom, etc.) with every effort at sincere recreation, including features we simply do not observe (triple minors with wholly inactive 3s, rigaudon steps, and so forth). Graham Christian Technical Writer, Product Management Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247 Email address: graham.christian-AT- risk.sungard.com Group web address: http://www.risk.sungard.com SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare 3 Post Office Square Boston, MA 02109 "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:49:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:48:42 -0400 From: Susan Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: susan-AT- generalist.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >So, are we all supposed to say "modern" now, "MECD" instead of "ECD"? In >officially sanctioned conversations and communications. Steve has such a sweet sense of humor. I find "MECD" much shorter than referring to it as "the melange of dances both historically-inspired and newly choreographed created by the folk revival movement begun by Cecil Sharp and his coterie and continuing on as a living tradition to the present day" But maybe you could suggest a better phrasing. The relevant distinction is what Graham explained. Susan (20thccd? Hmmm. aHECD? Nah. CSIECD? Definitely not. NMCoTotECDLECD? Maybe....) This has been an unsanctioned communication from the Fairmont Hotel, San Jose, California. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:42:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:42:38 -0400 From: Michael Siemon Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: >At 10:26 AM -0400 8/30/02, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote: >>Be warned: the "modern" era of western culture is generally >>regarded by academics as being long over, > >Amazing that academic training has been so poor for so long that >such a term would even been used for the concept! > >What an astounding inability to comprehend the basic concept of time! ??? I hope that's intended to be playful, as Steve's original note was. From the standpoint of a historian (or perhaps, an Historian...) the term "modern" applied to European history begins circa 1500 (e.g. in the _Cambridge Modern History_, which begins with Maximilian Hapsburg.) I'd rather put Steve's point the other way around -- all English Country Dance is "Modern" from the perspective of historical study. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:23:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:48:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KLWYHJLEBEIB9JO2-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Michael quoted and wrote: > >At 10:26 AM -0400 8/30/02, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote: > >>Be warned: the "modern" era of western culture is generally > >>regarded by academics as being long over, > > > >Amazing that academic training has been so poor for so long that > >such a term would even been used for the concept! > > > >What an astounding inability to comprehend the basic concept of time! > ??? I hope that's intended to be playful, as Steve's original note was. > From the standpoint of a historian (or perhaps, an Historian...) the > term "modern" applied to European history begins circa 1500 (e.g. in > the _Cambridge Modern History_, which begins with Maximilian Hapsburg.) > I'd rather put Steve's point the other way around -- all English Country > Dance is "Modern" from the perspective of historical study. You know, this whole "Post-Modern" thing started with art and architecture. In architecture, there actually was a school called "Modern" (as opposed to Classical, Neo-Classical, etc) and that school was the default style for big buildings from maybe the 50s - 70s; post-Modern architecture said "this is not the only way to build things" and was in many ways a reaction to "Modern". Rather than big featureless blocks, a Post-Modern building might be a big featureless block with a Greek temple on the top or some other elements of whimsy. In art, postmodernism was stuff that was in many ways reactive to and commenting on the existing style; it actually assumed that the viewer knew enough art history to get the joke. In different disciplines, there have been schools and eras called "modern", either by the practitioners or in retrospect; they don't all fall at the same time. Culturally, the period of almost unanimous approval of the new and modern (ooh, it's streamlined and has chrome!) seems (to me, anyway) to from maybe the 1910s to the early 1960s; after which a lot of middle-class people started saying out loud that maybe wood was nicer than wood-grained Formica, and experiencing a lot of nostalgia for an imagined simpler life which tended to be mentally located as no later than the 1930s. (But then the 1990s went retro-crazy for the 40s, 50s, and 70s - and 2002 is doing 1960s styles without all the rest of the zeitgeist. [The WTO protesters, etc, aren't in my opinion doing 60s-retro; they're having an authentic response to current conditions.] I think 50s or 70s retro don't particularly have to do with the actualities of living in those periods, but rather with it being far enough back that the people enjoying them in retrospect have no personal memories of the complexities and unhappiness of those particular times. But I ramble.) Anyway, my actual point is that "Modern" means different things in different disciplines, covers eras which may not even overlap in time with other things called "Modern", and post-Modern doesn't describe everything that comes after "Modern" forever, but initially meant a reaction to the "Modern" movement. Indeed, the whimsy has flowed out again from most big buildings. (A really extreme example is computer science, where "antique programming languages" are ones that were around in 1970s and 1980s, and "modern" ones are ones under active development, except that Fortran is automatically antique even if the the Fortran 9x compilers have only been out for a couple of years.) So Steve is having ze little joke, and he's right - the whole history of ECD takes place within "modern history". But he might consider the title of a useful reference book: "Modern English Usage." It doesn't mean "since 1500." Windily, -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:11:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:11:20 -0500 From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020830191024.00b37570-AT- mail.mhtc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UtZSYCfhmW9bO/2/OfffLg)" References: --Boundary_(ID_UtZSYCfhmW9bO/2/OfffLg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Vaguely I remember a history course in college that had Modern European History starting in 1815. As a geologist, modern is post 10,000 years bp. --Boundary_(ID_UtZSYCfhmW9bO/2/OfffLg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Vaguely I remember a history course in college that had Modern European History starting in 1815.

As a geologist, modern is post 10,000 years bp. --Boundary_(ID_UtZSYCfhmW9bO/2/OfffLg)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:18:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:28:34 -0400 From: PeterVermilya Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: modernity and its discontents To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: >So Steve is having ze little joke, and he's right - the whole history of ECD >takes place within "modern history". But he might consider the title of a >useful reference book: "Modern English Usage." It doesn't mean "since 1500." >Alan Hmm, to be strictly accurate, one should use CECD (C1 = Contemporary...) in reference to the contributions of Fried deMetz Herman, Colin Hume, Gary Roodman, et. al. Offering a ha'penny's worth, Peggy Vermilya ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:43:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:19:03 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20020830.223628.-790763.6.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan, While we're on the subject... Messages from the ECD server display the _original_ sender's name in the "From" column of my email software, yet the "Reply" function sends the reply to the ECD list, not the sender. This is obviously true for many others, given the regular appearance of obviously personal replies on the list and the bandwidth-eating apologies. Any way you can program the "Reply to:" header to contain the original sender's address? Just asking... Gene Murrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:57:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:45:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01KLXED7RSKSIB9EXK-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene wrote: > While we're on the subject... > Messages from the ECD server display the _original_ sender's name in the > "From" column of my email software, yet the "Reply" function sends the > reply to the ECD list, not the sender. This is obviously true for many > others, given the regular appearance of obviously personal replies on the > list and the bandwidth-eating apologies. > Any way you can program the "Reply to:" header to contain the original > sender's address? > Just asking... And the answer is: Yes, I can, but I believe that to be the wrong choice. This is a discussion list, and the default choice for replies should be to the list. This is a conversation being conducted in public; if you have a reply to the speaker on the subject it should be heard. If you want to hand the speaker a note on some other subject or some private aspect of the current subject, you can go to the trouble of addressing that note yourself. (I could also give the unhelpful but true response, which is that I also have the option of making the reply-to contain the original sender address _and_ the list address, so that the sender gets two copies of every reply. Experience on another list shows that this will please no-one.) In addition, there are enough flakey mail clients (and users, for that matter) that don't do the right thing with headers that the problem would still exist for some people no matter what settings I used. Some mail clients reply to the Errors-to: or Sender: header (which is the only reason I can think of for owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu to get replies that were intended for the list, which happens). Further, ECD shows up in the From: column on _my_ mail client (almost always; Graham seems to have some setting on his mailer that overrides that). I am, I fear, obdurate on this point. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 06:54:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 08:53:59 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > > And the answer is: Yes, I can, but I believe that to be the wrong choice. > [SNIP] > > I am, I fear, obdurate on this point. > > -- Alan Yeah1 Thank you. --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 09:44:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:44:40 -0400 (EDT) From: DavBarnert-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: winston-AT- SLAC.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <16e.1303ed4e.2aa24c78-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan wrote: >(I could also give the unhelpful but true response, which is >that I also have the option of making the reply-to contain the >original sender address _and_ the list address, so that the >sender gets two copies of every reply. Experience on another >list shows that this will please no-one.) Never say "never." I read this list (and several others) in digest form. When I respond to a post, I click "reply" and then paste the sender's address in as a "cc" (I also paste the subject, as appropriate, so it doesn't come out as "Re: ECD Digest V1 #1251"). That way I know the original sender will see my response ASAP, even if (s)he gets the digest or has turned off the list for whatever reason. I also support, BTW, the "reply goes to list" option. It's so much fun reading the unintended posts. ______ /\/\/\/\ <______> | | | | | David Barnert <______> | | | | | <______> | | | | | Albany, N.Y. <______> \/\/\/\/ Ventilator Concertina Bellows Bellows (Vocation) (Avocation) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:02:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:02:14 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: bounces, replies and reports To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01KLXED7RSKSIB9EXK-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> At 11:45 PM -0700 8/30/02, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >Further, ECD shows up in the From: column on _my_ mail client (almost always; >Graham seems to have some setting on his mailer that overrides that). Well, my email filters put Graham's message in the correct folder. That rogue and rebel Stephen Corrsin was the escapee in my case. This morning I went to see how he avoided filtering and found it's because he sends his mail to the ecd-digest address. Ah! that was easily fixed by widening the filter rule a bit. I don't mind reply-to-list at all. When you're on lots of lists like I am, you learn very quickly to look at the "TO" line of each and every email you are sending in reply. Good habit, quickly learned -- and it avoids a lot of embarrassment. And as Alan said -- when the purpose of the list is discussion, it's important that the discussion take place on the list! So nu, I'm still waiting for reports from ED week at Pinewoods! Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:06:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:06:42 -0400 From: Maryn McKenna Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT another list i am on was, over three months, killed stone dead - from very talkative to one post per week - when the default was changed from "reply to list" to reply to sender only." i perfer this one as it is currently set. maryn atlanta -+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+- M.A.J. McKenna mmckenna-AT- ajc.com Staff writer, science and medicine mmckenna-AT- mindspring.com The Atlanta Journal-Constitution 404.526.5987 vox 72 Marietta St. NW, 6th floor 404.526.5509 fax Atlanta, GA 30303 USA 404.285.1175 cel -+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+-+=+- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:42:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:42:47 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: "Reply to". Was: Recent spate of bounces To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <001601c25161$419c8710$a4c4c943-AT- g9tfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene wrote: > Messages from the ECD server display the _original_ sender's name in the "From" column of my email software.... That's how my system works, too. But that's not my primary reason for writing -- On the Strathspey List, the "Reply to" function automatically sends replies back to the List, but in the *message area*, in the particulars included in the "Original Message" section, the *sender's* email address is given, rather than the List's address. So one has the choice of replying privately by clicking on the sender's address, which action opens a new, and blank, message screen. I *think* that is different from what Alan means when he says -- >I also have the option of making the reply-to contain the original sender address _and_ the list address, so that the sender gets two copies of every reply... --- because the Strathspey List arrangement does not result in the sender's receiving two copies of every reply. Is this possible with the ECD list? Pat