Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:15:40 PST
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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:11:15 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Day as Child Health Day
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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It may not be generally known, but in 1924, May Day was named Child
Health Day.  Communities all around the U.S. held parades, fetes and
celebrations to raise public awareness of the importance of drinking milk
from t.b.-tested cows, fresh air, doctor's visits, etc.  Some of the
celebrations were traditional May Day type things; others involved the
staging of  purity plays such as "Marching to Wellville" or "Baby's
Godmothers."  These extolled the virtues named above. 

So for all of those who get up early tomorrow, please burst into the
rousing song that concluded the play, "Marching to Wellville."  It is
sung to the tune of Marching through Georgia.


Sing a song of healthy folks who have a happy life,
Free from all the ills and pains that fill some days with strife
Free from these diseases which we hear are often rife
     While we are marching to Wellville.

Chorus:  Hurrah!  Hurrah!  Pure food and water too!
Hurrah!  Hurrah!  No time for feeling blue!
So we sing and so we hope you'll all be singing too
     While we are marching to Wellville.

Sing a song of vegetables that in the garden grow,
Carrots and potatoes and the things we all love so
That they'll bring us rosy cheeks sure everyone should know
     While we are marching to Wellville.

Chorus

Sing a song of exercise that makes our muscles strong,
Sing a song of everything that helps the work along,
Don't you want to join our band and sing our happy song?
     While we are marching to Wellville.


Allison ("I'm not making this up") Thompson


P.S.  We still celebrate Child Health Day, but it is now in October, for
reasons unknown.
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Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 15:42:37 PST
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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:26:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Roger W. Broseus" <roger-AT-
just.net>
Subject: A Few Choice Spaces Left: Washington (DC) Spring Ball (fwd)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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ever>
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OK: maybe more than a few choice spaces! We've got a large hall and lotsa
space. This is REALLY a reminder. The 16th Annual, Washington Spring Ball
is right around the corner on May 18th.

Highlights:

Afternoon Practice Session
Followed by potluck (out-of-towners: just bring yourselves) and place to change
Reception at 7:30 followed by Ball at 8:00
Did I say: Friendly dancers?
Talk-thrus and prompting of dances for a few rounds

INFO, including program of dances, directions and an easily printed 
registration form: http://www.just.net/~roger/ball2002/

-- Roger W. Broseus
   Registrar, 16th Annual Washington Spring Ball


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 21:35:18 PST
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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 01:27:57 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
with regard to this:

1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
at the dance's conclusion.

2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
Robin.'")

3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
(longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.

In the interest of impartiality, I won't say which of these categories I
fall into. But I'd be curious to know others' opinions on this.

Dawn Culbertson

________________________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:31:17 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 06:30:06 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Date: 02 May 2002 05:36 Subject: Announcing dances


Dawn wrote...How do you feel about callers announcing the dance's title in
advance?

As a musician, I watch a great deal from the stage and see who sits out, as
much as I notice those who dance.

It seems that for much of the time and for many people who are going to get
up and do every dance it probably really makes little difference.

To those, like my wife, who wish to be selective, due to physical reasons of
arthritis, or restricted energy, hard of hearing, etc., it would be useful
to be able to enter into the dances you know you can or fell able to do.

Finding out late on in the call for instance that you have to "dance" this
one instead of walk, may be a reason for needing to drop out again, if one
is unable to rant or step or skip-change.

Similarly, having sat out for an hour, if a dance comes up that is one that
can be coped with, it would be nice to know in advance, rather than putting
one's coat on and going home early.

It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals its true number
only when it has arrived at the stop or after you have got on! We all like
to go to the right place, but not necessarily the same place.
Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:19:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:11:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KH8DUMNY2I8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Dawn wrote:

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
> doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
> with regard to this:

> 1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
> title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
> at the dance's conclusion.

> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")

> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.

I sometimes find myself calling with groups of a dozen people, half of whom
might suddenly decide to sit out.  So I'll say "take partners and form up and
I'll tell you what we're dancing when I see how many we have."  (It's
particularly fun to get three couples up, pick a three-couple dance, tell the
band what dance it is, and as you start to teach the three-couple dance have
a fourth couple join.)

I do try to make clear whether the next thing has skipping, slipping, or
ranting in it.

But slightly more directly-related to the question: I've found that almost
invariably the cases where people ask me the name of the dance are the cases
where I've already said it two or three times and they either weren't paying
attention or just didn't have a referent for it.  For a new dancer, "make a
longways set for Ore Boggy" doesn't really tell them anything; after they've
danced it, if they get the name again they have something to associate it with.

And to actually answer the question, as a dancer, I like to hear

"Form a [formation] for [dance name]", or possibly "the next dance is [dance
name]; take partners and make a [formation]".

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:31:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:20:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Talking about 3/2
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KH8EAP31IQ8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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ECDers (especially leaders, or analytical dancers) --

It's relatively easy to understand dancing in duple time - people can hear the
beats clearly, it lines up well with setting steps, phrasing is usually pretty
clear, and I think it's usually a good idea to start off evenings, or to start
off new dancers, with duple time dances - jigs, reels, etc.  It's also fairly
intuitive to dance in waltz time; the most correction needed for how new
dancers do it is to persuade them to put one foot _in front_ of the other and
to keep fairly flat.  A contra dancer who's never done English can deal with
all of that.

3/2 time is different.  Phrasing is often different - something that shows up
fairly often is "neighbors lead out for one bar, turn and lead back in for one
bar", which is often a surprise.  Even in a dance-walk, you may step
differently for triple time.  (Some of the best dancers still take two steps
for most measures and throw in an occasional three-step to "catch up".)  It's
just not obvious.  I've internalized this well enough, but I haven't
articulated it with ideal clarity.  Now I sometimes want to use 3/2 tunes at
Regency dancing, where there are a lot of new dancers, and I need to explain it
to them in a clear and non-misleading way.

(Most recently I tried to convey the idea of shorter phrases by suggesting that
you may not have as much time as you expect to do things.  This, of course,
resulted in excessive scurrying without particular reference to the music. 
Oops.)

One very useful thing I once saw was Bruce Hamilton pointing out exactly where
the first footfall happens in "Sally in Our Alley".  Do any of you have other
things to say that seem to promote understanding how to dance either
triple-time dances in general or specific 3/2 dances in particular; have you
heard somebody say something that made you understand it?

(I don't mean to limit the universe of explanation to the verbal.  If you do
demos or have seen demos that really helped, and can write them up, that
would be lovely too.)

Thanks in advance,

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:42:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Administrivia: hotmail is bouncing a lot of ECD mail
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KH8ENNDVOC8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
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ECders --

It appears that hotmail has decided to reject ECD list mail, although the
message I'm getting is not "we rejected your mail" but rather a list of 
a dozen ECD subscribers and a note that it was impossible to deliver to them.

It's unusual to get this for a dozen on a service at a time; I think the most
I've seen is two.

If you're reading this on hotmail, let me know.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 03:47:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:46:53 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021046.LAA30514-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>
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Dawn

I try to fall into Class 2 and generally achieve this.  In the UK, I suspect that most callers fall into Classes 2 or 3 if they are calling for an audience which has some knowledge (folk dancers, ceilidhs etc).  If you are calling for audiences that have little or no knowledge (one night stands, eg church social or PTAs) then Class 4 (announce the shape but never give the title) is not unusual.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


On Wednesday, May 01, 2002 at 01:27:57 AM, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
> doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
> with regard to this:
> 
> 1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
> title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
> at the dance's conclusion.
> 
> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")
> 
> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.
> 
> In the interest of impartiality, I won't say which of these categories I
> fall into. But I'd be curious to know others' opinions on this.
> 
> Dawn Culbertson
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 
> 


--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:26:43 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:26:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: David.Millstone-AT-
valley.net (David Millstone)
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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I'd like to second (or cry "Amen!") to Alan's observation: "I've found that
almost invariably the cases where people ask me the name of the dance are the
cases where I've already said it two or three times and they either weren't
paying attention or just didn't have a referent for it."

I announce titles at the start ("Form longways sets for 'Jack's Health' ") if
it's a dance that I think many of the dancers will recognize by title. If it's
less familiar, I'll ask for the desired formation and then, when folks are in
place, I'll announce, "We're going to dance 'Miss Cumquat's Maggot,' a recent
composition from the febrile brain of Vasilitis Romaneasceau." I usually repeat
the title after giving the directions, and sometime again at the conclusion of
having danced a less familiar one, so that the title has a chance of sinking in
now that the dancers have experienced it.

David "Sorry, I don't do Balkan" Millstone
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:45:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:43:44 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000f01c1f1e7$cd656c00$6602ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think we've discussed this, or a closely-related issue previously, but it
bears further discussion, since we've surely picked up new readers/posters
since.

I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
dances. The only places I've seen dances posted consistently are at various
Playford Balls, dance weekends, and evening events at recent Christmas
Country Dance Schools. The size and visibility of the various dance posters
has varied from a pencil-jotted note kept in the musicians'/caller's areas
to large, clearly printed signs visible from one end of the hall to the
other. The latter is a _lot_ more dancer-friendly!

And why do I prefer to know what's coming up? Same old problems: bad
shoulder; tricky back. I can do most dances without any trouble, given a
partner who is aware and considerate. And I do let my partners know my
abilities and limitations.

Formation of the dance isn't a problem  for me, but certain figures are,
particularly those requiring "duck and dive" figures, or facing-out circles,
or that figure whose name I can't recall which requires partners to link
arms behind backs while facing in opposite directions. In other words,
anything which torques my bad shoulder or places undue strain on my lower
back. And please, no California twirls or twirled ladies' chains! I do try
to firmly keep my arm low when someone tried to twirl me, but I often
encounter surprised looks when this happens - as if I'm being unfriendly and
uncooperative not to go along with someone else's idea of fun. That's not it
at all! So, rather than subject myself to a dance which I need to alter, or
to perturb partners or others, I'd rather just sit out and admire....if I
knew what was coming.

I can alter footwork - skipping depends on the floor surface and
supportability, for example, and a quick walk-step can be substituted if
need be. There are a few dances during which I'd prefer to sit out and enjoy
the music. Not knowing which category is likely to be called next is
extremely frustrating and limiting, as previously noted.

A caller once told me it "spoiled her sponteneity" to announce or post
dances. Given a choice, I'd far rather have "spoiled sponteneity" than a
spoiled rotator cuff or lower back.

So here's a vote for announcing and/or prominently and legibly posting
dances. If only one can be done, I'd favor the latter - it's a lot more
user-friendly.

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Dawn. I'm presently skipping a couple of
local contra dances because of this very issue.

Susan Booker
Lexington, KY

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:46:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:01:17 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFD5470740.2445C64D-ON85256BAD.00520108-AT-
infinity.com>
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Ideally, I say, "Form a [*] for [name]," and then perhaps specify
hands-four or -six (or say, Keep your hands-# and take them somewhere in
the room for a set dance).
But at least as often, I'll have the band play a bit of it while the
dancers are approaching sethood to change the mood and give them
information (jig? duple?); some dancers will recognize the tunes.

And no matter what, I get someone who (partway through the teaching) will
say, What is this called?

But *after* the name, by far the most common question during the
announcement segment is: Is there a lot of slip-step in this dance?

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:50:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021450.g42Eo9R04561-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dawn C. Culbertson writes:
> 
> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")
> 
> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.

   I fall into both of these categories I suppose.  I always announce the
name of the dance before we dance it, but I'm not real strict about the
timing of the announcement.  When I'm calling contra dances I'm definitely
in the 3rd group (I also announce the author of the dance).  When calling
ECD I tend towards the 2nd group and I would say that is my goal, but
I don't always remember to do it that way.  I come from a contra dance
background where as a dancer it isn't necessary to know what the dance is
in advance, you learn it during the walkthrough.  However in our ECD group
we have quite a few people from the local international folk dance group
and they tend to want to know what the dance is in advance.  Their tradition
is to just announce the name of the dance and have everyone know not only how
it goes, but what the formation is without having to be told.  I don't
expect that to happen with our ECD group, but I do hope that the dancers
will come to recognise the names of the dances and perhaps remember some
of the details of some of them.

Jonathan

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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:33 -0700
From: "Klein, Anita" <Anita.Klein-AT-
alza.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing dances
To: "'ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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nt44.alza.com>
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Another reason, as a dancer, I like to know dances in advance:  I go to a
regular dance that usually has more women than men.  I don't mind dancing
the man's part sometimes but I can't waltz as a man.  If it's a dance with a
waltz I want to know in advance so I can choose an appropriate partner.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Corkett [mailto:alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:30 PM
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Announcing dances


Date: 02 May 2002 05:36 Subject: Announcing dances


Dawn wrote...How do you feel about callers announcing the dance's title in
advance?

As a musician, I watch a great deal from the stage and see who sits out, as
much as I notice those who dance.

It seems that for much of the time and for many people who are going to get
up and do every dance it probably really makes little difference.

To those, like my wife, who wish to be selective, due to physical reasons of
arthritis, or restricted energy, hard of hearing, etc., it would be useful
to be able to enter into the dances you know you can or fell able to do.

Finding out late on in the call for instance that you have to "dance" this
one instead of walk, may be a reason for needing to drop out again, if one
is unable to rant or step or skip-change.

Similarly, having sat out for an hour, if a dance comes up that is one that
can be coped with, it would be nice to know in advance, rather than putting
one's coat on and going home early.

It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals its true number
only when it has arrived at the stop or after you have got on! We all like
to go to the right place, but not necessarily the same place.
Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Another reason, as a dancer, I like to know dances in advance:&nbsp; I go to a regular dance that usually has more women than men.&nbsp; I don't mind dancing the man's part sometimes but I can't waltz as a man.&nbsp; If it's a dance with a waltz I want to know in advance so I can choose an appropriate partner.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Alan Corkett [<A HREF="mailto:alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk">mailto:alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:30 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: Announcing dances</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Date: 02 May 2002 05:36 Subject: Announcing dances</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Dawn wrote...How do you feel about callers announcing the dance's title in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>advance?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>As a musician, I watch a great deal from the stage and see who sits out, as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>much as I notice those who dance.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>It seems that for much of the time and for many people who are going to get</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>up and do every dance it probably really makes little difference.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>To those, like my wife, who wish to be selective, due to physical reasons of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>arthritis, or restricted energy, hard of hearing, etc., it would be useful</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to be able to enter into the dances you know you can or fell able to do.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Finding out late on in the call for instance that you have to &quot;dance&quot; this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>one instead of walk, may be a reason for needing to drop out again, if one</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>is unable to rant or step or skip-change.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Similarly, having sat out for an hour, if a dance comes up that is one that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>can be coped with, it would be nice to know in advance, rather than putting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>one's coat on and going home early.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals its true number</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>only when it has arrived at the stop or after you have got on! We all like</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to go to the right place, but not necessarily the same place.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)</FONT>
</P>

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 15:52:25 +0100
From: Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
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Dawn wrote:-

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the
list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about
callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important
or
> doesn't it matter?......... >>


I must admit I like to hear the title of the dance before getting up to
dance (even though I may fall into the category of "talking too much and
miss it"!)  I also like the band to play at least the first phrase of
the tune (or play the start of the CD/tape) as this also jogs the mind
into knowing what dance may be (I am terrible for remembering names) or
the timing of the music. The music also registers when finishing off
your sentence when you don't hear the caller announcing it.

And, the most important to me, please repeat the name of the dance AFTER
dancing it - it is then that you know if you if you like it or not - and
if you want to remember the name in order to find out more details about
it (or ignore it next time?)

So, when calling, I try to carry out all the above, except if calling at
a function when the name will mean nothing to anyone. But I still think
it important to play some of the tune - this lets most people know the
type/feel  of dance coming next.

Trevor Monson

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:01:07 -0700
From: Mary Devlin <mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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My preference as a dancer is to hear something like what Alan Winston
suggests:  "Form a [formation] for [dance name]", or possibly "the next
dance is [dance name]; take partners and make a [formation]".  As I think
back, I hope that's what I've usually said when announcing the next dance
(and if it's not, it will be now!).

As both a caller and dancer, I believe it is very important to give the name
of the dance (and attribution).  My practice is to give this information
(again) just before the dance starts.  How else can we help people start
making connections between dances and their names?  This is helpful for
people looking at ball programs, for those who want to avoid certain
figures, and for everyone -- we're a species that names things.  Names help
us make connections and remember.

I also feel that giving dancers the tune information before the dance is
critical, and this is something I very much want as a dancer.  I like the
musicians to play the tune through as dancers line up, or just before
teaching it.  Granted, this doesn't tell new dancers much in the way of the
name of the dance, but it does carry a lot of information for people who've
been dancing a while or who are starting to "get" the tune/dance
relationship (how quickly we might be moving;, "OH!  THIS dance!!; Gosh, a
slip jig, etc.)  (There are other benefits from this too for the musicians,
but that would be another thread.)

Mary


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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 15:59:13 +0100
From: Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Administrivia: hotmail is bouncing a lot of ECD mail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Alan,

Could it be that Hotmail have changed there policy recently and if you
have used up your 2KB it now simply ignores anything else until you
delete some emails.  With the amount of junk mail arriving, even if
filtered into the junkmail folder (this is only deleted automatically
after 2 weeks I think) your allocation can be filled in a couple of days
if you do not access your account to delete everything.

Trev


> ECders --
>
> It appears that hotmail has decided to reject ECD list mail, although
the
> message I'm getting is not "we rejected your mail" but rather a list
of
> a dozen ECD subscribers and a note that it was impossible to deliver
to them.
>
> It's unusual to get this for a dozen on a service at a time; I think
the most
> I've seen is two.
>
> If you're reading this on hotmail, let me know.
>
> -- Alan
>
>


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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:59:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:59:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Administrivia: hotmail is bouncing a lot of ECD mail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes:
> 
> It appears that hotmail has decided to reject ECD list mail, although the
> message I'm getting is not "we rejected your mail" but rather a list of 
> a dozen ECD subscribers and a note that it was impossible to deliver to them.
> 
> It's unusual to get this for a dozen on a service at a time; I think the most
> I've seen is two.

   I've seen this happen periodically for the email lists that I run
(2 on dancing, 1 on rocketry).  It tends to last for a few days and then
resume working as normal.  Everyone on my lists who have hotmail will start
bouncing and then a few days later will start working again.  I've also
seen it happen for other email services.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:04:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:03:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Michael Barraclough writes:
> 
> I try to fall into Class 2 and generally achieve this.  In the UK, I suspect that most callers fall into Classes 2 or 3 if they are calling for an audience which has some knowledge (folk dancers, ceilidhs etc).  If you are calling for audiences that have little or no knowledge (one night stands, eg church social or PTAs) then Class 4 (announce the shape but never give the title) is not unusual.

   I still announce the title (and author) when I'm doing one night stands.
I figure it only takes a couple of seconds and I want the participants to
know that these dances come from somewhere.

Jonathan

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:59:26 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about 3/2
To: ECD-AT-
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Alan,
I try to say nothing about it unless it appears necessary. When it seems
necessary, I prefer to demo.
I often play the tune for a 3/2 dance while I walk around the dance floor
so that people can SEE how my foot-falls articulate the beats. I find the
usual error for dancers unfamiliar with this tempo is to scurry with no
reference to the beat so I tend to over-compensate by urging them to be
RELAXED but EFFICIENT because there may be fewer steps than they expect for
the figures (of course in some dances/figures they have extra time compared
to the analagous 2/4 figure - e.g., 6 steps rather than 4).

I've written several 3/2 contras in which I actively discourage
embellishments because most of the figures are shorter. For example, a
Ladies Chain across (half chain) in 6 rather than 8 steps pretty much
requires an assisted courtesy turn to be ready for the next figure at the
beginning of the next phrase.

Cammy

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:45:16 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Dawn,
Most dancers ask me "what was that dance" AFTER they are done, when the
pleasure of dancing it is fresh in their minds and often even though I had
announced it prior to dancing it. So I think the most effective time to
name a dance is after. The announcement before was meaningless to those who
didn't recognize the title and they generally don't remember it when they
decide after dancing that it was a title they want to learn to recognize.
That's from the perspective of the caller, but I am just like those dancers
described above - I struggle with names to start with and until I know that
I really want to learn the name for a person or a dance, I don't bother
trying

However, (I always have exceptions) if I know that there are dancers out
there who wouldn't want to miss the up-coming dance (and I see them not
getting partners, not paying attention, socializing at the back of the
hall, etc...) or on the contrary if there are people who can't stand to do
the dance that I have in mind, I make a point of forewarning them.
Sometimes I even name the intended dance in advance such as -
"we'll start with Dargason after the break" (because there are some who
really dislike this dance and the fact that they interact so little with
their carefully chosen partner but there are some who revel in its
venerable mystique and would be heart-broken to miss it).
or
"we'll do one more contra and then a waltz" (for those who want to find a
particular partner for the waltz and those who are trying to decide whether
to call it a night now or wait for another 15 minutes to get in a last
waltz).

Cammy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:13:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:13:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021513.g42FDOS14195-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
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SUSAN B BOOKER writes:
> 
> I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
> dances. The only places I've seen dances posted consistently are at various
> Playford Balls, dance weekends, and evening events at recent Christmas
> Country Dance Schools. The size and visibility of the various dance posters
> has varied from a pencil-jotted note kept in the musicians'/caller's areas
> to large, clearly printed signs visible from one end of the hall to the
> other. The latter is a _lot_ more dancer-friendly!

   This is probably a worthy goal, but not practical at many dances.  At our
balls we have a prepared order of dances which is listed in the programs, 
along with the formation and some other tidbits of info on the dances.

   However at our regular monthly dances it would be impossible to prepare
a list of dances to be done in a particular order in advance and then stick
to it.  The variation in attendance, both in numbers and experience make that
impossible.  We come up with a list of possible dances in order to let the
band know which ones to prepare, but it is always much larger than we will
have time for.  Then we evaluate how many dancers we have and what their
skill level is and choose dances from the list on the fly.  Since this
can change during the course of the evening, as people arrive or leave,
we have to be able to adapt to the changing situation.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:08:20 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 01:27 AM 5/1/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
>When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
>announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
>doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
>with regard to this:


me...

"Form a longways set for Mr Smith's Maggot"

"Hand four, duple minor"

"Walk as I talk it"

"Listen to the tune for tempo, etc"

"Mr Smiths Maggot begins with first couple crossing..."


....


"That was Mr. Smith's Maggot"








(Dawn...in a nutshell I do like like callers/briefs that make me guess at 
the dance.....!!!"

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<html>
<font size=3>At 01:27 AM 5/1/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I'd like to pose a question to all
you good folks out there on the list:<br>
When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about
callers<br>
announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important
or<br>
doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3
categories<br>
with regard to this:</blockquote><br><br>
me...<br><br>
&quot;Form a longways set for Mr Smith's Maggot&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Hand four, duple minor&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Walk as I talk it&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Listen to the tune for tempo, etc&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Mr Smiths Maggot begins with first couple
crossing...&quot;<br><br>
<br>
....<br><br>
<br>
&quot;That was Mr. Smith's Maggot&quot;<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
(Dawn...in a nutshell I do like like callers/briefs that make me guess at
the dance.....!!!&quot;<br>
</font></html>

--Boundary_(ID_CDKjJ8qVYxD+NyQERI7s0A)--
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:35:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:36:38 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b8f70b97801b-AT-
[140.186.54.234]>
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>SUSAN B BOOKER writes:
>>
>  > I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
>  > dances.

Then At 10:13 AM -0500 5/2/02, Jonathan Sivier wrote:

>    This is probably a worthy goal, but not practical at many dances.

It's really not that difficult.  All it takes is a piece of 
black/white board and chalk or some whiteboard markers.  Rest the 
board up against the piano or something at the top of the room and 
write in the name of the dance as the sets are assembling.
People who don't like to rant will know when to sit out, people who 
can't stand some specific dance will then not get trapped in to it, 
and everyone will start to learn the names, which is essential to 
ECD, to me.  After all, we have names attached to melodies to dance 
figure sequences - 3 cues to remembering.

And remembering is what permits better dancing because it frees the 
mind to anticipate and prepare to be on time for the next figure.  It 
also frees the mind to attend to the music so that the dancers dance 
with the music - a really important thing for good dancing.  In 
addition it frees the leader from having to prompt the entire dance 
and both add to the noise level and keep the dancers from hearing the 
music.

-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.beetlecat.com/gft-pics/ef-notes.htm
http://www.beetlecat.org/results/99champs.html
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook
landscape at:
http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:36:49 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:32:49 -0400
From: Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net>
Subject: On Announcing dances  - a comment from one with physical limitations
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
Due to physical problems, there are some dances I cannot do, do only with
difficulty, or prefer&nbsp; to avoid so as not to "drag down" others. &nbsp;As I've
been English dancing for a while (since 1955) I'm familiar enough with the
repertory that for the most part, I can decide upon hearing the name of the
dance whether I can do it or not. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
So I'd <i>very much</i> like the caller to announce the dance in advance.
&nbsp;That's preferable, for example, to dropping out of the middle of a set during
teaching, always getting in at the bottom, spoiling the dance for others,
or hurting myself. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
Some callers let me see the program in advance but some appear insulted when
I ask. &nbsp;Even explaining why appears to some to be an imposition. &nbsp;My physical
limitations are not apparent so I've even been accused of lying to get a
peek at a program.<br>
<br>
To be honest, I'd like to see programs posted and have callers announce a
change as early as possible.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regards<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dick Wexelblat<br>
<br>
P.S. &nbsp;I know she was just trying to be kind, but I really hated it a few
years ago when one caller "helped me" by announcing over the mike, "Dick,
you don't want to do this one." &nbsp;(...Without bothering to tell us the name
of the dance.)<br>
</body>
</html>

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:40:53 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:07:57 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I forgot to say,
1) Announcing a title before dancing a dance, can scare a newcomer by
giving the impression that one is expected to recognize the name and know
the figures even if this is not the case. At the least, it makes it
terribly obvious the gap that exists between those who do know the dance
(by their exclamations of dismay or pleasure) and the newer dancers who
already are feeling somewhat uncertain and self-conscious.

2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things like -
"the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or "more difficult
so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing." As Alan said, it
is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,
arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected to
accomodate their special needs.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:48:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:41:07 -0400
From: Anne Lowenthal <annel-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002a01c1f1f0$6eedae40$8a8cfea9-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20020502.003327.-112359.5.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>

Friends,

For the past few years at our regular Tuesday English dances in New York,
we've been posting the program.  Either I or the caller for that dance will
prepare about six copies, which we'll put on the walls around the hall.
Thus, in addition to hearing an announcement of a given dance's title either
as the sets are forming or in the course of the walk-through, dancers can
scan the program at any point in the evening.  They do that frequently,
especially at the beginning of the dance, or sometimes even quickly breaking
out of a set to check a name--and the programs disappear from the walls
after the dance is over.

We began to do this in hopes that knowing the names of the dances would add
enjoyment and increase familiarity with the repertoire. Then, in addition to
the immediate practical advantage of enabling dancers to plan ahead, either
to guard or spend their energies, there's our annual Gotham Assembly to
think about.  At the beginning of the fall season, all CD*NY members vote on
their five favorite dances from a list of the hundreds we did the previous
year.  Knowing the names helps!

But there's another advantage to knowing the name of a dance you're about to
do. It provides a kind of jump start, with kinetic memory (or whatever kind
of memory works for you) helping you through the patterns associated with
the title.  More efficient teaching and a higher level of dancing can be
among the rewards.

Anne Lowenthal

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:35:26 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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biogen.com>
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Susan Booker said:
I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
dances. The only places I've seen dances posted consistently are at various
Playford Balls, dance weekends, and evening events at recent Christmas
Country Dance Schools. The size and visibility of the various dance posters
has varied from a pencil-jotted note kept in the musicians'/caller's areas
to large, clearly printed signs visible from one end of the hall to the
other. The latter is a _lot_ more dancer-friendly!

And why do I prefer to know what's coming up? Same old problems: bad
shoulder; tricky back. I can do most dances without any trouble, given a
partner who is aware and considerate. And I do let my partners know my
abilities and limitations....

1) I consider it one of the obligations of any dance leader to constantly
assess the dancers as to their capabilities, likes, and dislikes in order
to send them home as satisfied with their evening as possible. If I can't
tell, in short order, that person X hates to twirl, person Y has a shoulder
problem, person Q finds it difficult to steer person R (who has motor and
conceptualization problems) through a circular hey, then I have failed in
my obligation. I think that I may be able to change someone's dislikes so I
take some risks that may or may not pan out.

2) We all make mistakes, but in my opinion none could be worse than
devising a program for the evening in advance without consideration to any
of the above concerns. My program is determined by what I already know
about the regulars through previous encounters, which of the regulars
happen to be there on this night, and what I learn as I watch each dance
through the evening. Having someone approach me early in the evening and
say "can you tell me when you're doing a dance that doesn't have swinging"
or "one that is especially good for children" is a great luxury. Most
dancers are far more subtle and one has to search the faces for fleeting
expressions of anticipation, delight, dismay, disappointment, etc... In any
dance crowd, there are always conflicting desires, but the talent in dance
leadership really shows when the leader crafts the evening repertoire to
satisfy everyone present as best it can be done - this includes the
musicians. Knowing that the sit-ins struggled with the last tune figures in
my decision about the next in which I try to ask for something they know
well.

3) On top of all of this, I have my own preferences and tastes and even
philosophical tenets that color the choices I make and gradually dancers of
similar taste are attracted, some who are open-minded evolve a similar
taste, and some who don't "prefer" my approach still enjoy variety and come
for a dose of a different approach and different repertoire.

Cammy

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:09:44 -0400
From: Anne Lowenthal <annel-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <005201c1f1f3$c707ab00$8a8cfea9-AT-
oemcomputer>
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References: <200205021513.g42FDOS14195-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu> <a05100300b8f70b97801b-AT-
[140.186.54.234]>

Our posted programs are printed out, not graven in stone, and callers can
add, subtract, and substitute dances in response to the unexpected, such as
a sizeable influx of new dancers.  But we have found it useful to plan
programs so as to concentrate teaching early in the evening, put the most
difficult dances where energy and attention levels are likely to be high,
and save the end of the evening for just dancing.

Anne L.

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:11:25 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 11:07 AM 5/2/02 -0400, you wrote:

>2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things like -
>"the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or "more difficult
>so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing." As Alan said, it
>is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,
>arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected to
>accomodate their special needs.
>
>Cammy

As long as you tell them the name of the dance.  If we do not let them know 
that is being danced, dancers are in no position to request a 
particuar/specific dance.

Easier or more difficult is not useful.  No dance is hard if you know it; 
no dance is easy if you have not seen it.

It would be more instructive to say "why" you think it is harder or 
easier.  Is it because of the number of figure, length of the dance, 
complexity of the tune, etc.

When novice and skilled dancers are all being taught a new dance, then all 
are on the same knowledge level. In that case, I have found that there is 
not necessarily a distinction among among the dancers.  I recall a long, 
contorted Scottish dance that we learned in the beginners group before the 
more skilled dancers came, and we ended up doing the teaching demo for them!

Jonathan mentioned another item that I forgot....write the dance name down 
before or during forming of the set (I use a small, dry erase board with 
easel ...perhaps with a note (key figure, history, etc to help recall).

I have some mild cognitive memory problems, and I have become more aware of 
verbal, kinesthetic, and demo learning.  Use all of them to be 
effective...tell them what you are going to do, do it, tell them what they 
did (to paraphrase teaching tell what what you are going to tell them, tell 
them, tell them what you told them).

mm

M.G. Mudrey, Jr.
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey
University of Wisconsin-Extension
3817 Mineral Point Road
Madison, WI 53705-5100
USA

Voice: 608-263-5495
Fax:    608-262-8086
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu

Survey Web Site: http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/

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<html>
<font size=3>At 11:07 AM 5/2/02 -0400, you wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>2) Rather than give the title
beforehand, I very often say things like -<br>
&quot;the next dance is easier,&quot; or &quot;faster and more
active,&quot; or &quot;more difficult<br>
so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing.&quot; As Alan
said, it<br>
is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,<br>
arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected
to<br>
accomodate their special needs.<br><br>
Cammy</blockquote><br>
As long as you tell them the name of the dance.&nbsp; If we do not let
them know that is being danced, dancers are in no position to request a
particuar/specific dance.<br><br>
Easier or more difficult is not useful.&nbsp; No dance is hard if you
know it; no dance is easy if you have not seen it.<br><br>
It would be more instructive to say &quot;why&quot; you think it is
harder or easier.&nbsp; Is it because of the number of figure, length of
the dance, complexity of the tune, etc.<br><br>
When novice and skilled dancers are all being taught a new dance, then
all are on the same knowledge level. In that case, I have found that
there is not necessarily a distinction among among the dancers.&nbsp; I
recall a long, contorted Scottish dance that we learned in the beginners
group before the more skilled dancers came, and we ended up doing the
teaching demo for them!<br><br>
Jonathan mentioned another item that I forgot....write the dance name
down before or during forming of the set (I use a small, dry erase board
with easel ...perhaps with a note (key figure, history, etc to help
recall).&nbsp; <br><br>
I have some mild cognitive memory problems, and I have become more aware
of verbal, kinesthetic, and demo learning.&nbsp; Use all of them to be
effective...tell them what you are going to do, do it, tell them what
they did (to paraphrase teaching tell what what you are going to tell
them, tell them, tell them what you told them).<br><br>
mm<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.<br>
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey<br>
University of Wisconsin-Extension <br>
3817 Mineral Point Road<br>
Madison, WI 53705-5100<br>
USA<br><br>
Voice: 608-263-5495<br>
Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 608-262-8086<br>
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu<br><br>
Survey Web Site:
<a href="http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/" eudora="autourl">http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/</a><br>
</font></i></html>

--Boundary_(ID_c7HFB7NZdMRkFymoCo2afQ)--
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:16:07 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:18:57 -0500
From: Larry Stout <lstout-AT-
iwu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD166F1.CD14AEE3-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>
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As a musician I need for the dance to be announced before people start
forming sets so I can find the relevant music (We have arrangements of
some pieces which, alas, often might be in any one of four or five
different notebooks--if I organized my music collection it might be more
efficient, but it still takes a little time.)  I also like to know if
the dance coming up is one that I want to dance rather than playing.

Saying what the formation is is essential for ECD, particularly if the
group has become so used to contras that they automatically line up in
duple minor improper longways formation.  As a dancer I prefer the
pattern "Form two couple sets for Heliotrope Maggot" with the music
played once through the tune while the sets form.  Information about the
source of the dance and a reminder of its name at the end are also nice
to have.  At my favorite dance camps that pattern is common.

When I do contra dances I assume that every dance will have the same
formation, interchangeable music (not quite-- as a musician I've been in
on the "balances in B1--a lively bouncy jig would be good" discussion
for the choice of tunes immediately before the dance starts) and not
enough distinct variation for the names to matter much.  Even there I
would like to be warned that the next dance is a triple progression
Beckett (which I might want to avoid) or a triple minor (which I'd want
to be in).

Larry
-- 
Lawrence Neff Stout
Professor of Mathematics
Illinois Wesleyan University
http://www.iwu.edu/~lstout

"Fiddling is a viol habit."  Anon?
"Dancing is necessary in a well ordered society." Thoinot Arbeau
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:29:35 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:48:43 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I agree with Emily and Susan - that seeing the name of a dance written out
is helpful in learning to recognize it. Very often I cannot hear what the
caller said so it is helpful to see it written on a board.

However, I wouldn't recommend a board that has lists of requests, lists of
what's done and the name of what's coming up all on the same one. I can
never find the name of a dance at the Boston Wednesday nights because there
is so much on the board and I always have to ask someone to assist me in
discovering it.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:48:52 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk> wrote:

> I must admit I like to hear the title of the dance before getting
> up to dance. 

>I also like the band to play at least the first phrase of
> the tune as this also jogs the mind into knowing what dance may be 
> 
> And, the most important to me, please repeat the name of the dance
> AFTER dancing it - it is then that you know if you if you like it
or >not - and if you want to remember the name in order to find out
more >details about it (or ignore it next time?)

As a dancer I second all three points.  I've never liked or quite
understood the English dance rationale for not revealing programs or
refusing to announce dances until after people are lined up for it
(with contra dancing nowadays it doesn't matter, because all the
dances are the same).  It's like the Whitman's chocolate sampler box
approach - you aren't allowed to know what you've chosen until you
bite into it, and then you're not allowed to spit it out, or put the
rest back no matter how much you may dislike it.  I've always thought
there was something mean-spirited about the way those boxes always
included things that nobody would possibly choose (does anyone like
those jelly-filled things?) but gave you no clue as to what they are,
sort of "ha-ha, you think you're about to taste something wonderful
and we've got you."  There's that same mean-spiritedness in the, "We
don't give out the program because then dancers would make their own
choices about what they want to dance, and with whom", approach. 
It's legitimate for callers to not have a whole program that they can
list in advance because they are adapting to the particular dancers
who are attending each evening - "I'm in charge and the program is
for me to know and you to find out" is not.  In any case, there is no
excuse for not announcing the name of the upcoming dance immediately,
even if one doesn't have an entire evening programed.  Repeating the
name of the dance at the end of it, as Trevor and others have
suggested also helps people to associate a name with with a
particular dance.

Of course, if we Americans could get out of the habit of grabbing new
partners and forming up sets the nannosecond a dance ends, and adopt
the British custom as I understand of taking a few minutes between
dances and only forming up once the new dance is announced, it would
also help alleviate some of the problems of people having to commit
to a dance without knowing whether it's one they might have problems
with, or even just don't enjoy doing.

Finally, to Trevor's middle point, it's hugely helpful as a dancer to
hear the music first.  In addition to jogging the memory when a name
doesn't, it's really a requirement for learning a new dance.  In the
New Haven dances, the custom has always been to "hear a few bars of
the music" first, but I have been in other situations where there is
no musical preview and the entire walk-through is taught without any
music.  Thus when the dance starts you have no idea of tempo, or how
to time sequences to the music. 


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:16:35 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502171626.18086.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com wrote:
> 1) Announcing a title before dancing a dance, can scare a newcomer
> by giving the impression that one is expected to recognize the name
> and know the figures even if this is not the case.

I find this doubtful.  There is a lot going on for newcomers, and
much of it is intimidating, but it becomes obvious after one dance
that each dance is taught, regardless of whether it's name is
announced first.

> 
> 2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things
> like - "the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or
> "more difficult so try to find a partner who knows what they are >
doing." 

These provide very little information if one is trying to avoid
particular dances due to physical limitations.  For me, when my knee
is bothering me there are some dances I can't do.  There are other
times when my sinuses act up which gives me dizzy spells.  In that
case I might be just fine with everything except "Trip to Paris" or
"Long Odds".  Someone with a back or shoulder problem would have
entirely different dances that they shouldn't do.  Each individual
has a much better idea of what dances are good for them and what
aren't than the caller possibly could.

Barbara


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dfhart24-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 5/2/2002 12:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:


> 
> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? 

My preference is to have the dance's title announced twice.  First along with 
the call to line up (in which formation) for the next dance, and then again 
after the teaching is completed and just before the dance begins.

Deborah

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 5/2/2002 12:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:<BR>
When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers<BR>
announcing the dance's title in advance? </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
My preference is to have the dance's title announced twice.&nbsp; First along with the call to line up (in which formation) for the next dance, and then again after the teaching is completed and just before the dance begins.<BR>
<BR>
Deborah</FONT></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Join us on May Day morning to dance up the sun
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502180804.67124.qmail-AT-
web13802.mail.yahoo.com>
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> Portland area Morris Dancers will be dancing at 5:00am at
> the Rose Test Garden in Washington Park (not at the
> original Rose Garden in Peninsula Park a block down the
> street from me.) ;-{(

I didn't know you danced Morris anymore. Is this your once-
a-year event?

--L.




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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:11:24 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:14:50 -0700
From: Ruth Temple <ruthtemple-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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My opinion, cheerfully engaged!
I happen to be in favor of 2 or 3, and am one of those who will ask the 
name of a dance if it hasn't been told after we've done it, because I 
like to know -- even though I have a rotten short-term memory for names 
on the fly; if I then want to go back home and learn the tune for XYZ, 
it will have at least that familiarity for me and sink more easily into 
my longer term memory.
I don't have a preference for whether the form or the title is announced 
first, though I do like having both those pieces of information.
My best preference is for folks who'll give a one-sentence history or a 
word about the author of a modern dance, so folks can get, or build up 
over time, that sense of fitting into the larger pattern of dancers, and 
those who make dances, in the world.
When a caller forgets give the name of the dance, and never mentions 
sources, they've left out some of what makes this dance, and this 
community, so special to me, and I feel that lack when it happens.
Thank you for the query!
Ruth Temple
in San Francisco


Dawn C. Culbertson wrote:

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
> doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
> with regard to this:
> 
> 1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
> title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
> at the dance's conclusion.
> 
> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")
> 
> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.
> 
> In the interest of impartiality, I won't say which of these categories I
> fall into. But I'd be curious to know others' opinions on this.
> 
> Dawn Culbertson
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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> 
> 


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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:54:04 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> dance as the sets are assembling.

Last night at the Boston Centre dance, while the whiteboard
listed the dances, the red marker was on its way out, so it
was pink and totally illegible from halfway down the hall. 

The other problem is that people write in all caps.
Typographers have informed us that people read by the
patterns made by the ascenders and descenders of lower case
letters -- the classic example in graphics classes are the
outlines of dog and DOG (Guess which one we can read?). 

> People who don't like to rant will know when to sit
out...

Unfortunately, the announcement comes after the set has
formed, since we are in the habit of forming new sets as
soon as one dance ends. Several years ago when I had a
severe problem with my energy level, I had to leave
partners in the lurch on a number of occasions; I felt
badly and was a bit embarassed. Now I have a foot injury
which gives me no problem as long as I don't rant or skip
on it.

Recently, some of our callers have started saying at the
end of a dance "That was X, and the next dance will be a
rant." I want to thank them. 

Lyrl




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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:06:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- SUSAN B BOOKER wrote:
> Formation of the dance isn't a problem for me, but
certain 
> figures are, particularly....facing-out circles....

Perfectly painless if done with hands down. Who was it
decided that they should be done up? Did this person have a
sadistic streak, or was he only 24? 

This discussion is revealing how many of us are starting to
fall apart--I'm not the only one. However, it beats the
alternative.

Lyrl



 


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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 14:45:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:00:39 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Announcing Dances &c.
To: ECD-AT-
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I have known both callers who share projected programs and callers who
don't, and I can't (frankly) fathom the latter, except as an instance of
control issues. I'm always delighted to show a dancer my program--it might
*whet* their appetite for the evening--with the caveat, "Of course, this
could all go out the window if twenty beginners arrive."
And my feeling is that if we grab partners and rush to form sets, we're
pretty well *obliged* to dance the next, whatever it may be (unless health
concerns really prevent, in which case--if, say, I were Lyrl's partner for
a rant or Barbara's for TtoP--I'd be obliged to sit out with him/her unless
he/she specifically urged me to dance with another). If people are going to
book ahead, in my experience they will do so whether they know the content
of the evening or not. When calling, I can't stop them; perhaps I shouldn't
try.

I cannot guard *all* dancers against every sort of pitfall--*and* get the
dance started. It is desirable to offer the name & a tidbit of background,
a taste of the tune, the formation, &c. I might well be able to say, "It's
a rant/waltz/jig." But if I keep going & offer more--about levels & figures
&c. I will hear complaints about over-talking and over-teaching faster than
you can say "Fenterlarick." In the course of the teaching, I will try to
say, You don't *have* to "slip" here; or, You can get through this fig-8
with a fast walking step. There are dances where you must skip (or not get
there) but not many.

As for these back-ring concerns:

'Perfectly painless if done with hands down. Who was it
decided that they should be done up? Did this person have a
sadistic streak, or was he only 24?'

As far as I'm concerned, this "hands-up" thing is *not* a back-ring: it's
the Funky Chicken.





Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



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Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:45:51 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
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|---------+------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|         |            "M.G. Mudrey, Jr."      |                                                                                    |
|         |            <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.|      To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                              |
|         |            edu>                    |      cc:                                                                           |
|         |            Sent by:                |      Subject:  Re: Announcing dances                                               |
|         |            owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.|                                                                                    |
|         |            STANFORD.EDU            |                                                                                    |
|         |                                    |                                                                                    |
|         |                                    |                                                                                    |
|         |            02-May-2002 12:11 PM    |                                                                                    |
|         |            Please respond to ECD   |                                                                                    |
|---------+------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|







At 11:07 AM 5/2/02 -0400, you wrote:

      2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things
      like -
      "the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or "more
      difficult
      so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing." As Alan
      said, it
      is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,
      arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected
      to
      accomodate their special needs.

      Cammy

As long as you tell them the name of the dance.  If we do not let them know
that is being danced, dancers are in no position to request a
particuar/specific dance.

Easier or more difficult is not useful.  No dance is hard if you know it;
no dance is easy if you have not seen it.

It would be more instructive to say "why" you think it is harder or easier.
Is it because of the number of figure, length of the dance, complexity of
the tune, etc.



Dear M. G. Mudrey, Jr. et alia,
Based on the responses of a number of you, I see I should have been more
explicit with my examples.

2a) When I perceive that a new dancer has finished a dance feeling
frustrated, inadequate, and inclined to think that the skills required to
do these dances are beyond their capability, I say "the next dance will be
an easier one" in an attempt to dissuade them from calling it an evening
but rather to stick around and try one more. I make sure it IS one that
they can encompass although whether it is actually easier or not is
debatable. I absolutely agree that what makes a dance easy or hard has
little to do with the choreography and far more to do with how it is
taught, how the tune is played, and how much confidence the dancers have in
whether the caller can get them through it or not. The words "the next
dance will be easier" is far more informative than anything else I can
think of to the dancer in the predicament I just described. Announcing "the
next dance is Trip to Paris" would simply drive them out the door because
they hear this as confirmation that this is beyond them - they don't
recognize the name of the dance (never having heard it), a number of the
other dancers (who look like they are experienced to the newcomer, whether
they are or not) just said "Yeah!" which means THEY recognize it....
To tell such a dancer WHY I think the next will be easier is pointless
because they are not informed enough to understand that it was too many
figures or awkward timing or whatever that made them feel like they had to
struggle through the previous dance. To attempt to explain would only make
the situation worse.

2b) When I say "the next dance is more active" it is because I perceived
during the last dance that some dancers felt bored or uninspired and I
sense the urge to get off some energy. Once again, it may simply have a
livelier tune and not really be more active if I am trying to balance
keeping them happy with another who doesn't like too bouncy dances because
of arthritis, but at least I make sure it has opportunities for the
energetic dancers to embellish as in Trip to Paris without requiring lots
of vigor.

2c) When I say "the next dance is more difficult (or challenging)" once
again it is only in direct response to signals I picked up during the last
one that indicate many of the dancers felt under-challenged and are craving
something that will make them think.

I could go on with the criteria that bring out such announcements, but the
idea is that my dancers DO find these informative in that they sense that I
know how they feel at that moment and I am addressing the situation with a
choice of dance that should gratify what they felt the last one lacked.
This is not a substitute for naming the dance. At the point that I make
these announcements, I have no idea what the next dance will be because I
don't know whether the over-extended newcomer will in fact get a partner
for the next dance (I don't want to be accommodating someone who isn't even
in the dance) nor do I know how many will be lined up to dance, and I may
not have picked up the sense of the musicians for what they are itching
for.
Once the dancers are in fact lined up and ready to begin, I usually say
"this dance is Hunsdon House, it was first published in 1651, here is a
picture of the place it is named after (The Playford Ball is a good
reference to hold up for the dancers to come over and ogle the picture) and
here is how it goes"... This kind of intro is informative but avoids the
Ooos and Ahs that can cow a newcomer when the caller says "form square sets
for Hunsdon House." After the dance is over is when I am inundated with
people who say "what was the name of that dance?" This is why I feel it is
more meaningful to them after they find out that they enjoy it.

Although it is nice to have a knowledgeable dance community, ECD in
particular has a reputation for cliquishness and snootiness. To infer that
there is an "in crowd" or that the dancers ought to be able to recognize
and recall dances by their names by announcing them in such a manner can
only exacerbate this reputation. Because there is so little overlap between
my favorite repertoire and those done by the CDS dances in Arlington Mass.,
I rarely recognize a dance by name and even I (by no means a newcomer) feel
intimidated by such announcements. (Fortunately, in my experience the
dancers tend to be quite helpful and I can usually fumble through OK and
being a caller I can learn the figures pretty quickly but without faith
based on such experience, I would probably leave). In 1976 when I was too
poor to pay admission to Ted Sannella's contradances, I sat by the exit
door and collected repertoire. In this position I was had a golden
opportunity to observe numerous first-timers leaving the hall and often
overheard their discussions. It was the same kind of thing - the caller
gave the impression that they should recognize the dances by name. He would
announce the next dance is Ted's Triplet number 9 and there would be wild
applause and the beginners would leave.
This technique worked well for him at this dance (as does the announcing of
titles at the Boston CDS English) because these dances were/are well
attended by a large core of experienced dancers.  Ted was too good a caller
to use this technique at a dance where he was trying to attract newcomers.
The point is that it is a technique that caters to the experienced dancers
and makes them stand out as different from the run of the mill dancers who
only attend on occasion and who have little interest in mastering the
titles of a core repertoire.

I like to have a large co-erasable board near me when I call to write the
name of the dance that we are doing in large letters for all to see. I like
to print out calls, title, and authorship information in large black print
which I paste on shirt card type cardboard for dancers to pick up and look
at on the edge of the stage and sometimes I have the dancers take a card
and try their hand at teaching a dance. I always try to include both music
and calls on every notebook I have for musicians so that they understand
that the real prompting for the choreography should come from them (I
merely assist where the musicians have been unclear). There are countless
ways to try to impress the dancers with the depth of the field, to
familiarize them with the titles of dances and music, etc... and all of
them should be employed except where the effect might be to drive potential
participants away.

Anyway, that's my take on it, Cammy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:03:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:
> This discussion is revealing how many of us are starting to
> fall apart--I'm not the only one. However, it beats the
> alternative.

Are you telling me what I have to look forward to? After all,
you have five years on me.  ;-})

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:09:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Join us on May Day morning to dance up the sun
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Portland area Morris Dancers will be dancing at 5:00am at
> > the Rose Test Garden in Washington Park (not at the
> > original Rose Garden in Peninsula Park a block down the
> > street from me.) ;-{(
> 
> I didn't know you danced Morris anymore. Is this your once-
> a-year event?

Actually, I never got past _thinking_ about going since I woke
up at 4:30am one day too early and decided to get a good night's
sleep Tuesday night.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:34:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:32:47 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances etc.
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000701c1f23a$0de1a080$0802ffd1-AT-
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Cammy indicates that new dancers may be intimidated by perceiving the
enthusiastic response of more experienced dancers to announced dances. Isn't
it equally likely that such enthusiasm would whet new dancers' curiousity
and interest in learning such enjoyable dances?

For me, it's not a matter of "hard" or "easy" dances - I've been a dancer
for over 20 years. It's not the complexity of the dance - it's the
particular figures which may be injurious. Without knowing what dances are
upcoming, I have no way of knowing what they may include.

Of course I encounter dances which are new to me...and to most other
dancers. Like everyone else, I learn them as they are taught. But the old
favorites recurr frequently on  typical dance nights, and while most of them
are wonderful dances, some of them are better for me than others. I don't
like being limited by physical concerns - but if I disregard such limits, I
will only acquire more limits, and that I refuse to do.

So it appears to be a question of teaching anonymous dances whose advance
naming might _possibly_ put-off new, easily intimidated dancers, who _might_
be unfamiliar with the names of the old favorites which are enthusiastically
welcomed by more experienced dancers, or discouraging experienced but
physically vulnerable dancers from taking the floor for fear of likely
injury. Must concern for one group or the other necessarily preclude concern
and caring for the other?

I question the idea that naming dances and others' resulting enthusiastic
welcome for such dances is somehow intimidating for new dancers. This is an
assumption made for others - whereas the chronic injuries and/or
less-than-optimal physical conditions with which many of us live  and dance
are all too real.

Thanks to everyone for some very interesting and thought-provoking posts on
this topic.

Susan Booker
Lexington, KY

...and I always thought the invariable applause for "Ted's Triplet Number
Whatever" was an in-joke! I never can keep them all straight...whereas if
they had real _names_...

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:48:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:47:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> --- Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk> wrote:
> > I must admit I like to hear the title of the dance before
> > getting up to dance. 
> 
> > I also like the band to play at least the first phrase of
> > the tune as this also jogs the mind into knowing what dance
> > may be 

I found years ago that it took me a long time to remember a
dance by name, but if you play the tune my mind generally
acknowledges familiarity. I find this is even more true of
Scandinavian dances because of the foreign names. There are
dances I've been performing for over ten years that still have
evaded being remembered by name, but play the music and it comes
back. I especially tend to remember the ones that I like, as
well as those I particularly dislike.
 
> > And, the most important to me, please repeat the name of the
> > dance AFTER dancing it - it is then that you know if you if 
> > you like it or not - and if you want to remember the name in
> > order to find out more details about it (or ignore it next
> > time?)

Repetition does help.
 
--- Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:
> As a dancer I second all three points.  I've never liked or
> quite understood the English dance rationale for not revealing
> programs or refusing to announce dances until after people are
> lined up for it (with contra dancing nowadays it doesn't
> matter, because all the dances are the same).  

When they line up immediately after the previous dance, people
tend to congregate into longways sets, which then have to be
undone into the correct formation. Then there are those who
still aren't listening when the teacher repeats for the third or
fourth time that it is a three couple set, etc.

> It's like the Whitman's chocolate sampler box
> approach - you aren't allowed to know what you've chosen until
> you bite into it, and then you're not allowed to spit it out,
> or put the rest back no matter how much you may dislike it.

Of course one of the hard and fast rules of set dancing is that
you can't drop out in the middle of the dance. Occasionally some
overwhelmed beginner will, and causes complete confusion for
most of the rest of the set. I can only remember dropping out in
the middle of a set once, and it was a medical emergency of
sorts, someone who was not a regular dancer had given my partner
a bloody nose during a Contra at a Folklife participant's party.



> ...There's that same mean-spiritedness in the, "We
> don't give out the program because then dancers would make
> their own choices about what they want to dance, and with
> whom", approach.

I don't condone booking way ahead and rarely do unless there is
a particular person that I want to dance with and am having
trouble "catching" between dances. If I know the program and
there is a dance I particularly enjoy doing with a particular
person, I will ask them for that dance. I've also been left
standing out by partners who forgot that they had agreed to do a
particular dance about three or four dances ago.

> It's legitimate for callers to not have a whole program that
> they can list in advance because they are adapting to the
> particular dancers who are attending each evening - "I'm in
> charge and the program is for me to know and you to find out"
> is not.  

It's understandable to adjust a predetermined program to better
fit the audience, but in any case is courteous to let the
dancers know well ahead of time what the program will be. I
especially appreciate callers who will announce what the next
dance will be in between teaching and dancing the current one.
That practice gives people with restrictive
injuries/disabilities plenty of time to know _not_ to line up
for a dance that they know they can't do.

> In any case, there is no excuse for not announcing the name of

> the upcoming dance immediately, even if one doesn't have an 
> entire evening programed.

There also is not really any excuse for turning your back on the
current dance so that you can get out your cards and plan what
you are going to do next. You should be a bit further ahead of
yourself than that in your planning. I'm thinking of one
particular caller who rarely knew when there was a problem on
the floor because he wasn't paying attention.


> ...I have been in other situations where there is no musical
> preview and the entire walk-through is taught without any
> music.  Thus when the dance starts you have no idea of tempo,
> or how to time sequences to the music. 

I've also run into callers who don't have relationship between
the dance and music set in their head well enough to get the
phrasing right when they start calling it. Thinking it through
while the band is playing it would also help the caller.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:54:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020503005449.40622.qmail-AT-
web20005.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com wrote:
> However, I wouldn't recommend a board that has lists of
> requests, lists of what's done and the name of what's coming
up
> all on the same one. I can never find the name of a dance at
> the Boston Wednesday nights because there is so much on the
> board and I always have to ask someone to assist me in
> discovering it.
 
At our Scandinavian dances we have a card, about 4"x15" with the
name of each dance on it. All dances that have been taught over
the years have a card, although if it hasn't been taught
recently there are often few people who know it. The cards are
put on a board several dances ahead so that everyone knows what
is coming up. Dances are graded by difficulty and also have the
flag of the country of origin.

Andy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:11:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:07:04 -0400
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b8f790966cd3-AT-
[165.247.6.244]>
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>2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
>line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
>Robin.'")

I like, and opt for, a variation on this.  Yes, I announce the dance 
name (and other relevant info) with the formation.  A dance list is 
also posted in a few locations around the hall (with the caveat that 
actual mileage *might* vary), so the dancers who need to know have 
some idea of what to expect.

Wherever possible, I also have the musicians play the music for the 
upcoming dance while the dancers are assembling.  That cues the 
knowledgeable while setting the mood and pace for all of the dancers. 
(Can also function as timing check for music.)  ECD music is rich and 
varied... one of the reasons some of us are drawn to dance... why not 
make every possible use of it?

Cheers - Linda
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:31:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:20:31 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF54FF4B44.9DF71F34-ON85256BAE.0004C896-AT-
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...and I always thought the invariable applause for "Ted's Triplet Number
Whatever" was an in-joke! I never can keep them all straight...whereas if
they had real _names_...

That is precisely my point. I doubt any of the experienced dancers knew the
triplets by number. It was the "in-joke"-ness of the event that the
beginners were discussing as they left the dance.

Cammy indicates that new dancers may be intimidated by perceiving the
enthusiastic response of more experienced dancers to announced dances.
Isn't
it equally likely that such enthusiasm would whet new dancers' curiousity
and interest in learning such enjoyable dances?

In my experience it is not "equally likely" but less likely.  An
uninhibited newcomer CAN be carried along by the excitement of those in the
know, but these are few and far between compared to the newcomers who think
they need lessons before they can even try to do it.

So it appears to be a question of teaching anonymous dances whose advance
naming might _possibly_ put-off new, easily intimidated dancers, who
_might_
be unfamiliar with the names of the old favorites which are
enthusiastically
welcomed by more experienced dancers, or discouraging experienced but
physically vulnerable dancers from taking the floor for fear of likely
injury. Must concern for one group or the other necessarily preclude
concern
and caring for the other?

I am not suggesting that one CANNOT announce the name of a dance ahead of
time for the sake of those who wish to be selective. I am suggesting that
if it is done it should be in a way least likely to segregate the
experienced dancers from the less experienced.
"Form sets for XXX" implies that some in the crowd know this dance (at
least to the timid newcomer)
"The next dance is XXX, published by so-and-so on such and such a date"
gives the impression that I don't EXPECT anyone to know it - i.e. beginners
and experienced will learn this dance together.

I question the idea that naming dances and others' resulting enthusiastic
welcome for such dances is somehow intimidating for new dancers. This is an
assumption made for others - whereas the chronic injuries and/or
less-than-optimal physical conditions with which many of us live  and dance
are all too real.

This is NOT "an assumption made for others." I take the time to talk to
newcomers who are leaving any dance (mine or anyone else's), to invite them
back some other time and express how important their presence is to us, to
offer to be their partner and coach them with personal tutorial, to convey
in whatever way seems most appropriate that these dances are healthy on
many levels and enjoyable to nearly everyone. In the process, I glean their
first impressions, their disappointments, what they were hoping for, etc...
Sometimes they had the time of their life and they were just tired.
Sometimes they just needed a friendly face to invite them back. Sometimes I
steer them to another venue more suitable for what they want.

Being sensitive to those who are reluctant to speak their minds on the
dance floor in the midst of strangers is a no-brainer as far as I'm
concerned, but then again - my dance experience is mostly based in the
small community countryside dances where each individual counts and one has
to endeavor to keep them all coming back for more.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:00:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:25:30 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: music
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF8FC5C002.312C2136-ON85256BAE.0007A3BA-AT-
biogen.com>
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 preview and the entire walk-through is taught without any
> music.  Thus when the dance starts you have no idea of tempo,
> or how to time sequences to the music.

I've also run into callers who don't have relationship between
the dance and music set in their head well enough to get the
phrasing right when they start calling it. Thinking it through
while the band is playing it would also help the caller.

Andy


Andy,
I have a very difficult time teaching a dance if I can't think of the tune.
When I look back at my book it is usually to get the tune so I can remember
how the dance goes rather than to get the calls.
CK

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:53:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:54:49 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD1FBF9.3FC152BB-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--Boundary_(ID_7S8O2id5K2etH2nExBhCnQ)
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Cammy wrote:

> He would
> announce the next dance is Ted's Triplet number 9 and there would be wild
> applause and the beginners would leave.
>

Too bad the newcomers didn't understand that this was a big joke. The
people who were applauding so wildly usually didn't have the faintest as
to what the next dance was.

Ciao,
Al


--Boundary_(ID_7S8O2id5K2etH2nExBhCnQ)
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Cammy wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>He would
announce the next dance is Ted's Triplet number 9 and there would be wild
applause and the beginners would leave.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>Too bad the newcomers didn't understand that this was a big joke.
The people who were applauding so wildly usually didn't have the faintest
as to what the next dance was.
<p>Ciao,
<br>Al
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_7S8O2id5K2etH2nExBhCnQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:05:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:05:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <89.17729255.2a035872-AT-
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In a message dated 5/3/02 1:55:47 AM, lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com writes:

<< At our Scandinavian dances...also have the
flag of the country of origin.

Andy >>

That would get a bit repetitive in ECD, don't you think?
Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:14:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:50:14 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Physical Limitations (was Announcing Dances)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502.231028.-430199.0.franch-AT-
juno.com>
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I've changed the subject line because I think that we need to move one of
the underlying themes to the surface.  One of the reasons some people
like to know the dances in advance is because they have physical
limitations.  Knowing what the dance is going to be allows them to
participate or not, depending on the stress the dance would cause them.

Another way to consider the issue is to ask, "what modifications are
possible in the way the dance is done?"  This might require support from
the caller and also calls for consensus among the dancers.  Consider The
Fandango (or any other slipping circle dance).  When everyone's knees,
hips, and body parts are in good shape, a full bore attempt at all 12
feet off the floor at once is fun.  But one can also do a circle at a
walk and, done with style and proper tension, be in the spirit of the
dance.  I've also seen dancers (prior agreement very important here!)
step either outside or inside the circle while the remaining five dancers
slip around with zoom and verve.  Similarly, an individual might be able
to abstain from ranting and do the rest of the dance.  I'm sure the List
could provide other examples of dances in which dancers could make
adjustments that made an otherwise inaccessible dance accessible to a
member of the community.

Mike Franch
Baltimore, Md. USA
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:46:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:44:31 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations (was announcing dances)
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000f01c1f254$d6c9ab40$0802ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
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Cammy, it is certainly commendable that you are so sensitively concerned
about the well-being of your novice dancers. Would that all callers and
group organizers, in large communities or small, were so welcoming.

And it is interesting that correct phrasing of one's announcement of an
upcoming dance's name and other relevant information (formation, brief
history, dance composer, etc.) seems more welcoming and/or all-inclusive to
any who might consider taking the floor for such a dance. As far as I, and
perhaps other experienced dancers with mild physical wear and tear are
concerned, the point is not in _how_ such announcements are phrased - it's
whether or not they are made at all.

As previously noted, posting dances is a great help. So is identifying
dances by name _before_ dancers take the dance floor. Others have noted
feeling self-conscious, embarrassed, and distressed for one's partner and
set at having to excuse oneself belatedly from the dance floor. It's almost
equally difficult to miss a much-loved dance because it isn't announced in
time to find a partner.

So really, I have no preference whatsoever as to how such dance
announcements are made - just make them in time for me to decide what is
best for me. That's all.

Susan Booker

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:00:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:59:25 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD2273E.202ADE11-AT-
opendoor.com>
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References: <20020502164843.12973.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>



Barbara Ruth wrote:...

> Of course, if we Americans could get out of the habit of grabbing new
> partners and forming up sets the nannosecond a dance ends, and adopt
> the British custom as I understand of taking a few minutes between
> dances and only forming up once the new dance is announced, it would
> also help alleviate some of the problems of people having to commit
> to a dance without knowing whether it's one they might have problems
> with, or even just don't enjoy doing.
>

What she said!

It was very funny at Graham Christian's session at NEFFA - it was (before) the beginning of the session, the musicians were just getting settled and he hadn't even stepped up to the mic
yet and there was the whole room lined up in longways sets. When he did get up to the mic he very cheerfully said something such as 'well actually the first dance is a big circle'...

Brooke in Ashland OR

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:28:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:27:50 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about 3/2
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD22DE7.B431E06D-AT-
opendoor.com>
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SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

I like have the music playing - with less experienced dancers I'll start moving to
it to give people a sense of how to move and then invite them to do likewise. That
gives people a chance to get the feel of the music and appropriate movement for it
without the stress of fitting figures to it.

Then when I start teaching the dance I make sure to doodle or talk rhythmically as
they walk it through - 'lead out, deedle-dee, dum; & back, deedle-dee, dum' (each
bit separated by a comma being one beat) or 'lead out, deedle, and turn (with
enthusiam on the 'and turn' part to give them the idea that they do something
different than keep going for a 4th beat); lead back, deedle, to place' - argh,
this is hard to do sitting at a computer...

If I notice people not getting it I will do a quick demo of said figure with
dancers who are, while doodling.

Sometimes the figures can take longer than in duple time - there are some 3/2
dances with, for example, rights and lefts where it is actually 6 steps per hand
rather than 4 (or a faster 3). This is just as problematic as 'not having as much
time so people scurry through' because you don't want people shuffling along
because you said it takes longer. Another example - Lady William's Delight by Rich
Galloway has lines of 4 doing long leads down/up - I might do something like 'lead
down, deedle-keep, going; dum-pa, deedle-dee, dum' (I sure hope I don't sound as
silly when I do this live as it looks typed out.)

I don't like to count steps and I try for as few explanatory words as possible -
relying rather on the music and practicing/showing movement.

Brooke in Oregon

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> ECDers (especially leaders, or analytical dancers) --
>
> It's relatively easy to understand dancing in duple time - people can hear the
> beats clearly, it lines up well with setting steps, phrasing is usually pretty
> clear, and I think it's usually a good idea to start off evenings, or to start
> off new dancers, with duple time dances - jigs, reels, etc.  It's also fairly
> intuitive to dance in waltz time; the most correction needed for how new
> dancers do it is to persuade them to put one foot _in front_ of the other and
> to keep fairly flat.  A contra dancer who's never done English can deal with
> all of that.
>
> 3/2 time is different.  Phrasing is often different - something that shows up
> fairly often is "neighbors lead out for one bar, turn and lead back in for one
> bar", which is often a surprise.  Even in a dance-walk, you may step
> differently for triple time.  (Some of the best dancers still take two steps
> for most measures and throw in an occasional three-step to "catch up".)  It's
> just not obvious.  I've internalized this well enough, but I haven't
> articulated it with ideal clarity.  Now I sometimes want to use 3/2 tunes at
> Regency dancing, where there are a lot of new dancers, and I need to explain it
> to them in a clear and non-misleading way.
>
> (Most recently I tried to convey the idea of shorter phrases by suggesting that
> you may not have as much time as you expect to do things.  This, of course,
> resulted in excessive scurrying without particular reference to the music.
> Oops.)
>
> One very useful thing I once saw was Bruce Hamilton pointing out exactly where
> the first footfall happens in "Sally in Our Alley".  Do any of you have other
> things to say that seem to promote understanding how to dance either
> triple-time dances in general or specific 3/2 dances in particular; have you
> heard somebody say something that made you understand it?
>
> (I don't mean to limit the universe of explanation to the verbal.  If you do
> demos or have seen demos that really helped, and can write them up, that
> would be lovely too.)
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> -- Alan
>
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
> ===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 07:48:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:48:52 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: announcing dances
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F78wsXZZTHfyQg0000ada3-AT-
hotmail.com>
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I speak as someone who has no ambition ever to be an ECD caller/ teacher/ 
whatever, and if he had such ambition, no dance group or series in its 
collective right mind would ever allow me to fulfill said ambitions.

I'd just as soon not know what the forthcoming dance is. That way everything 
is an interesting surprise. And to be honest, I expect to be fully and 
entirely occupied with chattering away with my partner or neighbors and 
generally genially socializing, while the caller is trying to shuffle 
through his/ her notes, or muttering the name of the dance into the mike.

It can be interesting to learn what the hell the dance was afterwards, 
however. In fact, that's what I usually consult the chart for. (When there 
is a chart or list of dances posted.) On the occasions when I think a new 
dance is worth remembering.

yrs
Steve C.

Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 23:31:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 21:36:08 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020503183807.00a4a4c0-AT-
mail.oz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 12:53 PM 5/2/02 -0700, Lyrl wrote

> > All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> > some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> > dance as the sets are assembling.

All it takes is some whiteboard markers to get 20% of our musicians and 
dancers scurrying for their inhalers! Or for the exit door.

(Overheard at a dance by a band-member,   "How can I play the recorder if I 
can't breathe?")

I love to have the program posted, but solvent-based products such as 
whiteboard markers and permanent marking pens cause serious health problems 
for me and many others with asthma or MCS.

For a healthier environment in which all will be able to breathe 
comfortably,  use butcher paper and either crayons or water-based marking 
pens.

Blackboard and chalk are second best (asthmatics have trouble with chalk 
dust) but greatly preferable to whiteboard marking pens or permanent 
markers which cause cardiac and neurological problems as well as breathing 
difficulty.

Victoria Bestock,
         consultant with the Americal Lung Association's Master 
Home     Environmentalist program and supporter of dancing in clean air.




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 02:48:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:46:20 +1000
From: Earthly Delights music & dance <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: New Website
To: aus-worldfolk-AT-
edfac.unimelb.edu.au, lochac <lochac-AT-
sca.org.au>, ECD <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <021f01c1f5ac$0cba4ac0$75ecfea9-AT-
webone.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

You are invited to check out our new web-site at
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au. There's lots of band,
instrument and event info, audio samples, pictures
(including from last month's English Country Dance!).
There's also dance tips, costume links, instructions for
over 100 dances and a big 500-year dance history. We plan to
develop it into a web resource. Do let us know what you
think!

Warmest Regards,
Aylwen Garden
PS.The links page is still under construction  - please send
us your links.

Earthly Delights - Music and Dance
87 Schlich Street
Yarralumla ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA
Ph +61 +2 +62811098
Website: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au
Dances & Gigs:
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/upcoming.htm
Audio Samples: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/audio.htm

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 05:34:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 05:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507123440.70319.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Victoria,
Thanks for keeping us informed about things like this.  I know my
consciousness has been raised concerning pefumed or scented personal
products, but it wouldn't have occured to me to worry about something
like magic markers.
Barbara


--- Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:
> At 12:53 PM 5/2/02 -0700, Lyrl wrote
> 
> > > All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> > > some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> > > dance as the sets are assembling.
> 
> All it takes is some whiteboard markers to get 20% of our musicians
> and 
> dancers scurrying for their inhalers! Or for the exit door.
> 
> (Overheard at a dance by a band-member,   "How can I play the
> recorder if I 
> can't breathe?")
> 
> I love to have the program posted, but solvent-based products such
> as 
> whiteboard markers and permanent marking pens cause serious health
> problems 
> for me and many others with asthma or MCS.
> 
> For a healthier environment in which all will be able to breathe 
> comfortably,  use butcher paper and either crayons or water-based
> marking 
> pens.
> 
> Blackboard and chalk are second best (asthmatics have trouble with
> chalk 
> dust) but greatly preferable to whiteboard marking pens or
> permanent 
> markers which cause cardiac and neurological problems as well as
> breathing 
> difficulty.
> 
> Victoria Bestock,
>          consultant with the Americal Lung Association's Master 
> Home     Environmentalist program and supporter of dancing in clean
> air.
> 
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:08:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:08:14 -0700
From: Howard Carlberg <nsuch-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: people vs places
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CD809F2.7E8176A6-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <E170sTT-0003m2-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>

4/25/02 Susan wrote:
> 
> Someone named "Emily L. Ferguson" wrote:
> >I, too, am aware that there are many printed dance manuals from quite
> >a few centuries now.  And it's interesting, indeed, that the first
> >woman is the one who initiates corner activities in many 19th c.
> >longways dance, but, of course, there's nothing inherent in that
> >situation which would confirm that the 1st woman and the 2nd man are,
> >therefore, first corners.
> 
> This is a bit too obscure for me.  What is the definition of "first
> corners" if not the corners which move first?  

In my experience, the definition of first corners is the
positions of man 1 and woman 2 in a duple minor set, (often
synonymous with first diagonals, but not always).  It is
perfectly fine and common to call "second corners set and
cross, then first corners set and cross" for example.  It is
not who moves first, it has a separate unique definition.
But as Susan already pointed out, the terms of corners did
not exist in 19th century notation so there is nothing to
argue about there.

Howard
-- 
Howard & Shirley Carlberg
878 Pauline Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 528-2310    - phone in house
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:30:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:30:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507173012.55817.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> At 12:53 PM 5/2/02 -0700, Lyrl wrote
> > > All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> > > some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> > > dance as the sets are assembling.
> 

--- Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:
> All it takes is some whiteboard markers to get 20% of our
> musicians and dancers scurrying for their inhalers! Or for the
> exit door.
> 
> (Overheard at a dance by a band-member,   "How can I play the
> recorder if I can't breathe?")
> 
> I love to have the program posted, but solvent-based products
> such as whiteboard markers and permanent marking pens cause
> serious health problems for me and many others with asthma or
> MCS.
> 
> For a healthier environment in which all will be able to
> breathe comfortably,  use butcher paper and either crayons or
> water-based marking pens.
> 
> Blackboard and chalk are second best (asthmatics have trouble
> with chalk dust) but greatly preferable to whiteboard marking
> pens or permanent markers which cause cardiac and neurological
> problems as well as breathing difficulty.

My problems with solvents have been primarily skin contact, but
the more fragrance-free my life is, the more sensitive I am to
airborn chemicals. Some perfumes cause me repiratory distress,
but nowhere near as severely as Vicki experiences. I can have
skin problems from other chemicals in hand creams and soaps that
aren't a problem for people with airborne solvent sensitivities.

...But the chalk dust might be more of a problem for me than the
perfumes. My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that we
swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used to
dance at in West Hartford. 

Don't even _think_ of coming near me with that bale of hay...
Andy

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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:46:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:46:33 -0700
From: Howard Carlberg <nsuch-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:Dance sources / three-twos
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CD812E4.9E41DB4C-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <200204301517.QAA04540-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>

Michael Barraclough wrote:

> Its not a missing figure - the curent figure (dip-and-dive) has been substituted for the original figure (waves of the ocean/sea).  

I didn't know that was a modern substitution, I thought it
was just a variation. I have danced La Russe a number of
times in various places (US), and only once, (last Sunday)
seen dip-and-dive.

Howard
-- 
Howard & Shirley Carlberg
878 Pauline Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 528-2310    - phone in house
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:16:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about 3/2
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507181615.29563.qmail-AT-
web20003.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
wrote:
> If I notice people not getting it I will do a quick demo of
> said figure with dancers who are, while doodling.

The important thing here is doing the demo with dancers who
_are_ getting it. I have often seen callers, even local ones who
know the crowd, randomly pick a foursome to use for a demo, and
at least one person in the group is a beginner who is completely
clueless!!! If you must, pick individuals from different sets
who know the figure. they can find their way back...
 
> (I sure hope I don't sound as silly when I do this live as it
> looks typed out.)

Probably, but just stay on pitch so it sounds good...  ;-})

> I don't like to count steps and I try for as few explanatory
> words as possible - relying rather on the music and
> practicing/showing movement.

I learned a long time ago that the music really does tell you
what to do. My Scandinavian performing group uses recorded music
and I have learned to rely on variations in the music to cue me
for the next figure. I recently realized that I have been
getting irritated with my partner for audibly counting out the
steps on one of the new dances we are learning. In this
particular dance there are long clockwise and counterclockwise
closed (shoulder-waist hold) turns with your partner after each
"verse" and on some the turn is eight or twelve clockwise and
sixteen counterclockwise. I'm looking for the musical cues and
my partner's counting is distracting me from finding them and
setting them in my head.

Last night was the Monday night Scandi groups annual "Birthday
Ball" celebrating the founding of the group, and we had a
wonderful new band consisting of Sally White, who has played for
many years for the dances in Salem, Ellen Hansen, who plays for
ECD and Contra with various people, piano repairman Denis
Wilkinson, making his public debut on fiddle as well as playing
his accordion and clarinet (not all at the same time), and a
bass player, whose name escapes me (aren't they alwyas the
forgotten ones?). The music was wonderful. For some dances they
played different tunes than those we usually use and I noticed
that many people had difficulty remembering how the dance goes
without those musical cues that they usually have. 

Then there's the problem I had with using the tune associated
with The Chestnut for All Saints Day a couple years ago at the
Portland Ball; the music was telling me to do something
completely different.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:24:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507182447.17972.qmail-AT-
web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
wrote:
> It was very funny at Graham Christian's session at NEFFA - it
> was (before) the beginning of the session, the musicians were
> just getting settled and he hadn't even stepped up to the mic
> yet and there was the whole room lined up in longways sets.
> When he did get up to the mic he very cheerfully said
> something such as 'well actually the first dance is a big
> circle'...

I noticed many years ago that English dancers tend to form
longways sets no matter what the next dance is going to be
(sometimes even if they know in advance). Sometimes it is
difficult to get them to change the formation. I've also noticed
that when dancers form a circle some of them insist upon taking
hands around the large circle, even if the dance starts with
couples facing LOD or couple facing couple in subsets.

Qndy

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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:34:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:34:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507183400.70640.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/3/02 1:55:47 AM, lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com
> writes:
> 
> << At our Scandinavian dances...also have the
> flag of the country of origin.
> 
> Andy >>
> 
> That would get a bit repetitive in ECD, don't you think?
> Carl Friedman

True...
But not all ECD comes from England.  ;-})
Having the dances posted ahead allows one to see that there is a
particular dance that you like doing with a certain person and
affords the opportunity to ask them in advance to save that
dance. On the other hand, sometimes potluck leads to some
wonderful surprises.

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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:23:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 15:20:54 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about demos
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF43D3F62B.B02EF729-ON85256BB2.006984AD-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


Andy's note -
--- Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
wrote:
> If I notice people not getting it I will do a quick demo of
> said figure with dancers who are, while doodling.

The important thing here is doing the demo with dancers who
_are_ getting it. I have often seen callers, even local ones who
know the crowd, randomly pick a foursome to use for a demo, and
at least one person in the group is a beginner who is completely
clueless!!! If you must, pick individuals from different sets
who know the figure. they can find their way back...

Another viewpoint on demos:
Occasionally, I purposely pick someone who hasn't a clue for the demo.
Although this is risky, my intent is to teach the dance to the other person
in front of the rest of the dancers. Seeing how an experienced dancer does
something may be less informative than observing the instruction of someone
who is at the novice level. I've used this technique when teaching couples
dances.
May day morn, while teaching Haste to the Wedding to a bunch of novices in
Cambridge, I chose to teach the whole dance to one half of the circle then
the other. In that large outdoor venue, nobody could hear well (fortunately
the dance is so easy you don't have to hear so it went OK). However, it
occurred to me later that I could have saved time if I had taken a 4some to
the middle where all could see and had everyone imitate while I quietly
taught the 4-some.
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:28:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:28:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507192803.27171.qmail-AT-
web20007.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals
> its true number only when it has arrived at the stop or after
> you have got on! We all like to go to the right place, but not
> necessarily the same place. 

I got on the bus downtown the other day headed for school and
just before the bus pulled away a young man ran up and got on.
He sat near me and pulled out his school books and started
writing intently. About ten minutes into the ride, he turned and
asked me if this was the bus to Sylvania (the college campus)
and I assured him that it was. He said he'd run for the bus and
jumped on without even confirming that it was the right one.

> Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)

Alan, rest assured that there is no such thing as a "mere"
musician. Those of us who dance value you highly.

Andy
> 


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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 13:59:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:59:21 -0600
From: Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Dance sources / three-twos
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05010402b8fde654e897-AT-
[155.99.169.34]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <200204301517.QAA04540-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk> <3CD812E4.9E41DB4C-AT-
ix.netcom.com>

>Michael Barraclough wrote:
>
>>  Its not a missing figure - the curent figure (dip-and-dive) has 
>>been substituted for the original figure (waves of the ocean/sea). 
>
>I didn't know that was a modern substitution, I thought it
>was just a variation. I have danced La Russe a number of
>times in various places (US), and only once, (last Sunday)
>seen dip-and-dive.


How do you do  waves of the ocean?  We did La Russe last Thursday, 
with dip-and-dive.  I'm pretty sure I got that version from the 
community dance manual.

Emma
-- 
-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:32:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:29:14 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Dance sources / three-twos
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000501c1f60e$3ce1f1a0$69267ad5-AT-
michael>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Emma Rushton wrote
How do you do  waves of the ocean?  We did La Russe last Thursday, 
with dip-and-dive.  I'm pretty sure I got that version from the 
community dance manual.

As I recollect it has exactly the same track as doing a dip-and dive
except that hands are not joined.  

The instruction in the Community Dance Manual (originally published
1949) is for the leading couple to cross over with the opposite couple
(passing inside), and then to change with partner.  Then cross back in
the same way with the opposite couple passing inside.

This is described as " as danced in the Border villages; collected by
Peter Kennedy) and accords with the original instruction as contained in
C19 ballroom guides.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk





Emma
-- 
-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu

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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:37:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:31:39 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Standard repertoire
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200205071934_MC3-FD21-D9C6-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi all -
I haven't read the accumulated-during-my-Germany-tour 800 emails yet, so
I'm not aware what has been discussed on this subject before. But when I
started dancing ECD in the USA as of 1960, the choice of ANY repertoire was
limited to what was available on recordings, almost exclusively imports
from the UK. Noble exceptions were Pinewoods and the centers in Boston and
New York. If one was fortunate enough to get hold of Sharp's piano scores
or those interesting "Old English Dance" renditions in recorder tutorial
booklets (and recognised the tune as belonging to xyz dance), only then was
the selection larger. With the advent of the plethora of books of old and
new tunes in addition to the blue bible for musicians and the electronic
distribution of ever more stuff the notion of a 'standard' repertoire is
rather elusive.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 18:34:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 21:35:51 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD880F7.9DF25CAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)"
References: <20020507173012.55817.qmail-AT-
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--Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Andy,
    That fine dust is probably from an application of liquid wax. The
junk scuffs up awfully easily and is a powerful irritant to many,
including yours truly.
    To and insult to injury, some years ago my group in Pittsburgh lost
the use of a fine dance space because we tracked gray dust from a heavy
application of the stuff on the hall runners on our way out when we
left.

Your brother in misery,
Al

Andy Petersen wrote (in part):

> My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
> to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that we
> swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used to
> dance at in West Hartford.
>
--
Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
102 Loring Avenue
Pelham, NY 10803

Tel. 914 738-7678
Fax: 718 405-8037


--Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Andy,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That fine dust is probably from an application of
liquid wax. The junk scuffs up awfully easily and is a powerful irritant
to many, including yours truly.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To and insult to injury, some years ago my group
in Pittsburgh lost the use of a fine dance space because we tracked gray
dust from a heavy application of the stuff on the hall runners on our way
out when we left.
<p>Your brother in misery,
<br>Al
<p>Andy Petersen wrote (in part):
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that we
swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used to
dance at in West Hartford.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p>--
<br>Albert Blank &amp; Nancy DeVore
<br>102 Loring Avenue
<br>Pelham, NY 10803
<p>Tel. 914 738-7678
<br>Fax: 718 405-8037
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:33:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:33:45 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: cloverleaf turn single
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000401c1f638$c6ddf140$f5c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the 20th century,
or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th centuries anytime four people
turned single?

Thanks.

Pat
Charlottesville, VA

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:33:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:33:46 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Sheepskin Hey
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000501c1f638$c78c0b90$f5c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The SCD list is discussing this and someone asked about the origin of the
term.  All I know is what I've read in _The Playford Ball_ (Keller and
Shimer) in the notes to Picking Up Sticks:

"Although it is quite different from the hey described in 'The Three
Sheepskins' (DM I: 1698-1728), the movement in the last figure...has become
known as the 'sheepskin hey.'"

Anyone have any additional information?

Pat
Charlottesville, VA


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 20:45:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:45:57 +1000
From: Earthly Delights music & dance <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: Re: Sheepskin Hey
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <006101c1f642$dd1e27e0$75ecfea9-AT-
webone.com.au>
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References: <000501c1f638$c78c0b90$f5c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>

Have a look at John Garden's dance terms page -
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/terms.htm .
Warmest Regards,
Aylwen Garden

Earthly Delights - Music and Dance
87 Schlich Street
Yarralumla ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA
Ph +61 +2 +62811098
Website: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au
Dances & Gigs:
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/upcoming.htm
Audio Samples: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/audio.htm

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:38:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 05:36:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ecd-digest-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507.223747.11016.75969-AT-
webmail2.wlv.untd.com>
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Good grief! I've been without a computer since last Wed. due to major software problems (in fact, I'm still without it--I'm writing this on someone else's computer) and had no idea my simple query would get so many responses! But it's great to get so much input and a lot of thought-provoking points have been raised here, in my opinion.

I figure, in the interest of fairness, I might as well come out of the closet (as it were) & tell which category of caller I fall into: the 2nd. I feel it's important to announce a dance before it's done (i.e. "Make [formation] for [name of dance]"). I also announce the name of the dance at the end, and if I think there's something important the dancers need to know in advance (i.e. the dance is a little tricky if you don't already know it, etc.). I also prepare a program in advance, with a backup list of about 5 dances that can be substituted for them if necessary.

I think these things are important because I think it's a form of consideration and respect for the dancers. As pointed out, many dancers have injuries or other physical problems that make various types of dances difficult. And I've also found from experience that almost everyone has at least one dance they really don't like and would just as soon avoid. Keeping a program or the name of a dance secret, to me, only reinforces the unfortunate perception some people have of ECD as being snobbish and cliqueish and could well be perceived as a type of power play. I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in advance and have never been able to think of one. Even if the caller doesn't have a prepared program, it still wouldn't preclude them from announcing the name of the dance before actually beginning to teach it.

Special note to Barbara Ruth: Re your comment on chocolates: Yeah, I've never understood why makers of chocolate assortments don't tell you what's inside--what if you're allergic to nuts or cocoanut and you get one with that inside? And I've never understood why anyone would put some disgusting jelly inside a perfectly good chocolate exterior. But the Whitman's Sampler is one of the few chocolate assortments that DOES tell you what's inside (there's a little diagram on the inside lid). And there is a general way to tell what's inside a chocolate--if it's round, it's probably a cream; if square, chewy (caramel, nougat, etc.); if oblong, crunchy. In fact, some chocolate makers actually put a design on the top that tells you what's inside (an O for orange, V for vanilla)--unfortunately, in my experience, they all seem to look alike!




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:38:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 05:36:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ecd-digest-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507.223747.11016.75969-AT-
webmail2.wlv.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good grief! I've been without a computer since last Wed. due to major software problems (in fact, I'm still without it--I'm writing this on someone else's computer) and had no idea my simple query would get so many responses! But it's great to get so much input and a lot of thought-provoking points have been raised here, in my opinion.

I figure, in the interest of fairness, I might as well come out of the closet (as it were) & tell which category of caller I fall into: the 2nd. I feel it's important to announce a dance before it's done (i.e. "Make [formation] for [name of dance]"). I also announce the name of the dance at the end, and if I think there's something important the dancers need to know in advance (i.e. the dance is a little tricky if you don't already know it, etc.). I also prepare a program in advance, with a backup list of about 5 dances that can be substituted for them if necessary.

I think these things are important because I think it's a form of consideration and respect for the dancers. As pointed out, many dancers have injuries or other physical problems that make various types of dances difficult. And I've also found from experience that almost everyone has at least one dance they really don't like and would just as soon avoid. Keeping a program or the name of a dance secret, to me, only reinforces the unfortunate perception some people have of ECD as being snobbish and cliqueish and could well be perceived as a type of power play. I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in advance and have never been able to think of one. Even if the caller doesn't have a prepared program, it still wouldn't preclude them from announcing the name of the dance before actually beginning to teach it.

Special note to Barbara Ruth: Re your comment on chocolates: Yeah, I've never understood why makers of chocolate assortments don't tell you what's inside--what if you're allergic to nuts or cocoanut and you get one with that inside? And I've never understood why anyone would put some disgusting jelly inside a perfectly good chocolate exterior. But the Whitman's Sampler is one of the few chocolate assortments that DOES tell you what's inside (there's a little diagram on the inside lid). And there is a general way to tell what's inside a chocolate--if it's round, it's probably a cream; if square, chewy (caramel, nougat, etc.); if oblong, crunchy. In fact, some chocolate makers actually put a design on the top that tells you what's inside (an O for orange, V for vanilla)--unfortunately, in my experience, they all seem to look alike!




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:40:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020508074022.90652.qmail-AT-
web20005.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the
> 20th century, or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th
> centuries anytime four people turned single?

The way I learned was that all turn singles are to the right
unless specified in the dance instructions. That said, I find
that there are times where a turn to the left helps the flow of
the dance. The cloverleaf turn is an interpretation/invention of
the last thirty years.

Andy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:54:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:54:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020508075415.97294.qmail-AT-
web20010.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Al,

Ron also speculated as to whether we were actually getting
particles of the floor tiles themselves, which on some of the
older floors could have asbestos in them. Investigations have
found that any industry that creates extremely fine dust
particulates can have problems with "brown lung", which I
understand was first identified among workers in the cotton
mills. Fiberglass, which has replaced asbestos in some
insulating applications, has been found to be just as dangerous
to the lungs of people who are constantly exposed to it. My
father's Uncle Dave suffered from emphysema, primarily as a
result of many years of working a dusty wheat farm west of
Spokane. The last few years he was on the farm he had other
people working the place and about the only thing he did was
check for eggs in the chicken coop.

Andy

--- Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com> wrote:
>     That fine dust is probably from an application of liquid
> wax. The junk scuffs up awfully easily and is a powerful
> irritant to many, including yours truly.
>     To and insult to injury, some years ago my group in
> Pittsburgh lost the use of a fine dance space because we
> tracked gray dust from a heavy application of the stuff on the
> hall runners on our way out when we left.
> 
> Your brother in misery,
> Al
> 
> Andy Petersen wrote (in part):
> > My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
> > to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that
> > we swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used
> > to dance at in West Hartford.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 03:47:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 11:47:36 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205081047.LAA15054-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The "rule" that "all turn singles are to the right unless specified in the dance instructions" is entirely spurious and is a twentieth century invention.  The only safe guidance is to do what seems right (this applies to setting as well) based on direction of movement, where weight is etc.

The term cloverleaf turn single may be modern, but the choreographgic unit is not.  It can be found in La Charpentier which was written my Monsieur Charpentier and published in Recueil De Nouvelles Contredances by Monsiuer Dezais, Paris, 1712.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab/tgis.co.uk


On Wednesday, May 08, 2002 at 12:40:22 AM, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:

> --- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the
> > 20th century, or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th
> > centuries anytime four people turned single?
> 
> The way I learned was that all turn singles are to the right
> unless specified in the dance instructions. That said, I find
> that there are times where a turn to the left helps the flow of
> the dance. The cloverleaf turn is an interpretation/invention of
> the last thirty years.
> 
> Andy
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> 
> 


--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 06:31:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:31:42 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Sheepskin Hey
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000201c1f694$b0b0e420$b7c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks, Aylwen, but the definition doesn't mention the *origin* of the term.
Did I overlook something?

Pat

Aylwen offered:

Have a look at John Garden's dance terms page -
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/terms.htm .

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 06:31:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:31:43 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000301c1f694$b16232c0$b7c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael wrote:

"The term cloverleaf turn single may be modern, but the choreographgic unit
is not.  It can be found in La Charpentier which was written my Monsieur
Charpentier and published in Recueil De Nouvelles Contredances by Monsiuer
Dezais, Paris, 1712."

Would this be a publication wherein the dances were diagrammed?

What about the dance instruction books without diagrams, the Playfords,
Walshes, etc?  Written instructions are brief, and without accompanying
diagrams.  What I was wondering was whether treatises of the time addressed
this, with something like:

Being a Complete Explanation of the Turn Single and Its Variations
.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect of
having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....

Thusly, folks under a dancing master's instruction, or at home with Treatise
in hand, would know to do this, without its being specified each time in a
dance.  I know that many on this list are familiar with Wilson's works; I
thought he, or writers in earlier times, might have set out a rule or
guidance or this.

Pat

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 07:46:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:46:10 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFBF57DAA2.84196AA6-ON85256BB3.004DB179-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pat,
I base my interpretation of the Playford dances on the tune and the tastes
of the people of the period rather than specific written accounts which
(when available) tend to be anecdotal and capture the opinion of the writer
rather than the common practice. Based on my sense of the tastes of the
Playford era, the cloverleaf TS would have been the preferred figure when
the instructions call for turn single. It is my opinion that only if the
cloverleaf was incompatible with the choreography that preceded and
followed the turn, would the dancers deviate from the pleasure they found
in symmetrical choreography and extended eye-contact.

Cammy


                                                                                                                                   
                      Patricia Ruggiero                                                                                            
                      <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>        To:       English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  cloverleaf turn single                                            
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      07-May-2002 10:33 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the 20th century,
or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th centuries anytime four people
turned single?

Thanks.

Pat
Charlottesville, VA





================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 07:52:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:47:27 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200205081050_MC3-FD3C-7C73-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi all,
I do agree that it is important to announce a dance prior to doing it. Most
dancers I know have lots of different 'hooks' onto which they hang their
dance knowledge: the name, the tune, a signature figure, the formation...
And then there are those decisions to either make absolutely sure to do or
not to do a specific dance. The more of these 'hooks' the leader provides,
the more successful the dancers can be.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:19:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:18:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: Martha Davey <marthacd-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: 
Message-ID: <20020508.131906.2363.1256-AT-
wm15.nyc.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 Hello, All-
     I am 1200 miles away from home and my dance books at the moment
so I can't look at them, but doesn't an older dance, "Well Hall" have cloverleaf turn singles or is that a modern interpretation?




Martha
Martha Davey 
temporary phone 941 792 9323  

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:28:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:23:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.3.07.10205081349.A2272-9100000-AT-
acme>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 8 May 2002, Martha Davey wrote:

>      I am 1200 miles away from home and my dance books at the moment
 so I can't look at them, but doesn't an older dance, "Well Hall" have
cloverleaf turn singles or is that a modern interpretation? 


"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."

	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
unreasonable.


						--Ian


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:08:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:05:19 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: people vs places
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200205081608_MC3-FD4D-2236-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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So, "Susan Generalist" -
whom or what are you afraid of that lets you remain so secretive about your
identity? The nosy strangers perhaps on whom you lavish your innuendo,
right along with condescention?

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny, who has encouraged you before to stand up -
figuratively speaking - and be counted.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:11:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:05:18 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: POTLUCK?
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200205081608_MC3-FD4D-2235-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi Aylwen -
potlucks I've been to where NO prior hints were given have resulted in
  six different tuna casseroles at the same event
  delicious soups - and no containers for the 'users'
  homemade breads - and no knives to cut them with
  and similar quasi-disasters.
Potlucks WITH suggestions usually work better!
And those suggestions include
  everyone whose phone number ends with digit ' ' is encouraged to
     bring .... and the suggestions then specify salad or main dish or
     meat or cooked veggie or bread or dessert.
Cutlery, containers and napkins are usually provided by the organizer,
  same as drinks.
Whoever brings food also provides the necessary utensils for
preparation/serving.
Labels in front of the various concoctions help those with allergies. And
not everyone is willing to share recipes...
The option of biscuits, crackers or fruit should make it easier for the
non-cooks to make worthwhile contributions (or the commitment to provide
paper plates, plastic cutlery, or help with cleaning up).
Have fun - and don't let too many chips, pretzels etc. appear unless you
have gallons of drink!

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

      
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:52:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:52:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <1ac.1f125cf.2a0aea12-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 5/8/02 1:39:16 AM, dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:

<< I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in 
advance and have never been able to think of one.  >>

During this discussion it occurred to me that there is ONE, though it's 
doubtful that it would outweigh the reasoned & reasonable opinions on the 
other side (which I share.) I was once at a weekly dance somewhere where the 
leader seemed to be *purposely* witholding the information (name of dance, 
letting us hear a few bars of the tune, etc.) The walk-thru was well under 
way before it suddenly became clear & many of said "Oh it's (name-of-dance), 
why didn't s/he SAY so? (Obviously it took a while because the usual clues 
were absent.) Well, if s/he had, the experienced dancers in the crowd (at 
least in the opinion of the caller) would have figured they knew it (it was 
actually a pretty well-known dance) & actually cease to LISTEN to the 
directions. I think this caller wanted -- in that case -- to have even the 
more jaded dancers approach the dance with fresh minds & possibly leave off 
some sloppy habits they may have picked up along the way. Well, I'm not sure, 
but it might have worked. In that case.

Judy-devil's advocate-Grunberg
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:12:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0205081702020.21651-100000-AT-
tucson.Princeton.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 8 May 2002 JBGrun-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/8/02 1:39:16 AM, dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:
>
> << I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in
> advance and have never been able to think of one.  >>
>
> ...if s/he had, the experienced dancers in the crowd (at least in the
> opinion of the caller) would have figured they knew it (it was actually
> a pretty well-known dance) & actually cease to LISTEN to the directions.
> I think this caller wanted -- in that case -- to have even the more
> jaded dancers approach the dance with fresh minds & possibly leave off
> some sloppy habits they may have picked up along the way...

a related reason would be to try to prevent dancers who know the dance
from competing (vocally) with the caller during the teaching.  i've seen
it happen more than once that experienced dancers (usually dancers who are
also callers, but not the designated callers) try to teach
less-experienced partners or minor sets the dance *while* the caller is
speaking to the whole group.

(another thing i've noticed at several recent events is dancers on the
floor whistling or doodling the tune while the caller is doing the same
over the mic.  when i can hear both, and they're out of sync, i find it
most distracting.)

susie lorand
ecd musician (not caller) in princeton, nj, usa

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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 00:41:51 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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Patricia Ruggiero wrote

Would this (Recueil De Nouvelles Contredances by Monsiuer
Dezais, Paris, 1712) be a publication wherein the dances were
diagrammed?

What about the dance instruction books without diagrams, the Playfords,
Walshes, etc?  Written instructions are brief, and without accompanying
diagrams.  What I was wondering was whether treatises of the time
addressed
this, with something like:

....

Yes, the book contains orseographic rather than text instructions.   As
for instructions in the form you are describing, no such luck.

We have the Lorin mss (Paris, 1685, 1688), Feuilet (Paris, 1706) and
Dezais (Paris, 1712) which provide orseographic instructions.  The
Playfords, Walshes etc only describe Doubles, singles, set & Turn
single, the Figure half round and the Whole Figure.  Mathew Welch
provides further orseographic material (1757?) and then we are into the
Wilsons etc (19 century) which do describe more figures.

Perhaps someone who is more familiar with books providing instructions
that have been found in America could add further examples.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 19:59:53 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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Michael Barraclough writes:
>Perhaps someone who is more familiar with books providing instructions 
>that have been found in America could add further examples. 

Wandering briefly through:  Saltator's earlier manual (Boston, 1802)
gives step-sequences for some moves, which if you deciper properly
give clues as to direction, but he doesn't have diagrams.

One thing I note with Wilson and other 19thc manuals is that the
"turn single" figure pretty much vanishes.  It not only isn't
in the diagrams, it isn't in the dances of the period.  I' mot
sure how early it started dropping out  (over to you, Rich,
for 18thc?)  but by the Regency era it seems to be out
of fashion.

Susan
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From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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Compound response to lotsa different folks; apologies if I muff up
the attributions somewhere.

Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk> writes:
>The "rule" that "all turn singles are to the right unless specified in
>the dance instructions" is entirely spurious and is a twentieth
>century invention.  The only safe guidance is to do what seems right
>(this applies to setting as well) based on direction of movement,
>where weight is etc.

I think that is a going a little far.  My sense is that the ideal
of symmetry shifted in the 17th century.  Earlier material has a
very definite bias, and it is *against* mirror-symmetry like
everyone turning away from each other.  It doesn't default to
turning right, either, it defaults to left, and gives some helpful
details on the "set and turn" figure one sees in Playford:

"2 singles syde and a d. rounde on your lefte hande"
"sett and turne with the Left Legg"
"set and turne with the left legg"
"two singles sydes the first with the left legg, the second with
the right"

These are quotes from mid to late 17th-century English manuscripts.
They aren't describing country dances, but I would find it a little
bizarre if dance styles from the same time and place using such a
similarly titled figure were done opposite ways.

Likewise, in the 16th and early 17th century Italian manuscripts, there
is a distinct bias.  99% of the time, when one turns single (and
they did it a lot), it is to the left.  And everyone turns to their
own left - it's not meant to be mirror symmetry.

The period ideal of symmetry was *different* from ours.  If you
had two people side by side, both of them turning left was considered
symmetrical.  Ditto facing.

This drives me nuts when I am doing the early Playford stuff in a
MECD context; all my experience tells me to go left when setting or
turning single, when everyone else is going right.  It's the little
things that trip me up (not usually literally).

Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> optimistically hopes for:
>Being a Complete Explanation of the Turn Single and Its Variations
>.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
>the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
>other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect of
>having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....
>
>Thusly, folks under a dancing master's instruction, or at home with Treatise
>in hand, would know to do this, without its being specified each time in a
>dance.  I know that many on this list are familiar with Wilson's works; I
>thought he, or writers in earlier times, might have set out a rule or
>guidance or this.

As I said in a previous post, he doesn't address the turn single at
all - it's just gone by that time.  That's a pity, since by that time
there's a definite bias in favor of starting with the right foot and
both mirror-symmetry and whatever one calls non-mirror-symmetry are
used in different figures.  But turn single and starting to the right
feels very strange to me - an old figure done in a "new" style.

My (limited) understanding of Baroque/18thc dances is that the symmetry
ideal shifted to a more mirror-image version, so for 18thc dances my
first instinct would be to have people turn in mirror image, but 
probably still not in cloverleaf format unless that was specifically called
for; in a proper set, I'd have the men turn left and the ladies right as
if casting off.  But boyoboy is baroque *not* my specialty.

Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com writes:
>rather than the common practice. Based on my sense of the tastes of the
>Playford era, the cloverleaf TS would have been the preferred figure when
>the instructions call for turn single. It is my opinion that only if the
>cloverleaf was incompatible with the choreography that preceded and
>followed the turn, would the dancers deviate from the pleasure they found
>in symmetrical choreography and extended eye-contact.

Well, as noted above, I disagree, and I think that the problem is that
we don't think of symmetry the same way they did.  The non-country
dance sources from 1675ish back are pretty unanimous in suggesting
non-mirror image and left-foot default to start.  Country dance did
not develop in a dance void; there are many similarities and probably
actual links in the figures and styles.  Take this dance segment:

Longways for as many as will.  [snip] Honor your partner.  Set to
partner.  Change places with right hands, change back with left, turn
single to the left, lines cast off.

It's not a country dance, and it wasn't originally in English. 

Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
[Well Hall]
>"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."
>
>	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
>unreasonable.

I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
ideal of symmetry.

Susan

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Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:23:54 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:24:46 +0100
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugs.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The UK dance festival calendar
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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ugs.com>
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m9.sprynet.com>

Someone asked me about UK dance festivals and having typed
it all in it strikes me this could be of more general interest

IVFDF (Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival)
End of February / early March
http://www.ivfdf.ceilidhsoc.org/

Eastbourne
First weekend of May
http://www.eiff.org.uk/

Chippenham
Last weekend of May
http://members.aol.com/chippfolk/index.html

Lichfield
Third weekend of June
http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/lichfolk/

Sidmouth
First week of August
http://www.sidmouthfestival.com/

Broadstairs
Second week of August
http://www.broadstairsfolkweek.com/

Whitby
Third week of August
http://www.folkwhitby.freeserve.co.uk/

Southam
Last weekend of August



IVFDF is not very ECD - more Contra in US-speak, aimed at the
lunatic student audience

IVFDF Eastbourne, Lichfield and Southam are purely dance festivals,
the others include other folk activities.  IVFDF and Lichfield are
just weekends, the others are week-long, or include a public holiday
Monday

I recommend Chippenham to people who want to sample a festival since
it has everything, but is only a weekend.  Sidmouth is enormous
(which you might regard as an advantage, or not); the other week-
long summer festivals are much smaller so you tend not to get much
choice of dance so if there is some band or caller you positively
hate then you might find it difficult to avoid them (but then,
why would a festival book anyone you hate?)

There are also various dance weekends, in particular at
Halsway Manor,
http://www.halswaymanor.co.uk/ but also at assorted Adult Education
residential centres and hotels.  From time to time people organise
days of dance with workshops in the day and evening dances, and of
course lots of clubs organise dances so you can usually find
somewhere to dance on a Saturday evening.

US visitors may want to see Bob Archer's page at
http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm
or Colin Hume's advice at
http://www.colinhume.com/american.htm


Hugh Stewart

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:47:24 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:47:15 +0100 (BST)
From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The UK dance festival calendar
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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To expand on Hugh's message
Lichfield is the weekend which includes the third Friday of June (this year 21-23 June)
Chippenham is the weekend which includes the last Monday of May (except for this year which is Jubilee year and covers first Monday in June)
Sidmouth is the week which includes the first Monday in August (the old bank holiday)
Eastbourne is the weekend preceding and including the first Monday in May

So basically all the above (except Lichfield) revolve around the Bank Holidays or old bank holidays

Paul

In message <3CDA405E.C09E2EBA-AT-
ugs.com> ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> Someone asked me about UK dance festivals and having typed
> it all in it strikes me this could be of more general interest
> 
> IVFDF (Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival)
> End of February / early March
> http://www.ivfdf.ceilidhsoc.org/
> 
> Eastbourne
> First weekend of May
> http://www.eiff.org.uk/
> 
> Chippenham
> Last weekend of May
> http://members.aol.com/chippfolk/index.html
> 
> Lichfield
> Third weekend of June
> http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/lichfolk/
> 
> Sidmouth
> First week of August
> http://www.sidmouthfestival.com/
> 
> Broadstairs
> Second week of August
> http://www.broadstairsfolkweek.com/
> 
> Whitby
> Third week of August
> http://www.folkwhitby.freeserve.co.uk/
> 
> Southam
> Last weekend of August
> 
> 
> 
> IVFDF is not very ECD - more Contra in US-speak, aimed at the
> lunatic student audience
> 
> IVFDF Eastbourne, Lichfield and Southam are purely dance festivals,
> the others include other folk activities.  IVFDF and Lichfield are
> just weekends, the others are week-long, or include a public holiday
> Monday
> 
> I recommend Chippenham to people who want to sample a festival since
> it has everything, but is only a weekend.  Sidmouth is enormous
> (which you might regard as an advantage, or not); the other week-
> long summer festivals are much smaller so you tend not to get much
> choice of dance so if there is some band or caller you positively
> hate then you might find it difficult to avoid them (but then,
> why would a festival book anyone you hate?)
> 
> There are also various dance weekends, in particular at
> Halsway Manor,
> http://www.halswaymanor.co.uk/ but also at assorted Adult Education
> residential centres and hotels.  From time to time people organise
> days of dance with workshops in the day and evening dances, and of
> course lots of clubs organise dances so you can usually find
> somewhere to dance on a Saturday evening.
> 
> US visitors may want to see Bob Archer's page at
> http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm
> or Colin Hume's advice at
> http://www.colinhume.com/american.htm
> 
> 
> Hugh Stewart
> 
> 
================================================================================
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From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The UK dance festival calendar
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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To expand on Hugh's message
Lichfield is the weekend which includes the third Friday of June (this year 21-23 June)
Chippenham is the weekend which includes the last Monday of May (except for this year which is Jubilee year and covers first Monday in June)
Sidmouth is the week which includes the first Monday in August (the old bank holiday)
Eastbourne is the weekend preceding and including the first Monday in May

So basically all the above (except Lichfield) revolve around the Bank Holidays or old bank holidays

Paul

In message <3CDA405E.C09E2EBA-AT-
ugs.com> ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> Someone asked me about UK dance festivals and having typed
> it all in it strikes me this could be of more general interest
> 
> IVFDF (Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival)
> End of February / early March
> http://www.ivfdf.ceilidhsoc.org/
> 
> Eastbourne
> First weekend of May
> http://www.eiff.org.uk/
> 
> Chippenham
> Last weekend of May
> http://members.aol.com/chippfolk/index.html
> 
> Lichfield
> Third weekend of June
> http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/lichfolk/
> 
> Sidmouth
> First week of August
> http://www.sidmouthfestival.com/
> 
> Broadstairs
> Second week of August
> http://www.broadstairsfolkweek.com/
> 
> Whitby
> Third week of August
> http://www.folkwhitby.freeserve.co.uk/
> 
> Southam
> Last weekend of August
> 
> 
> 
> IVFDF is not very ECD - more Contra in US-speak, aimed at the
> lunatic student audience
> 
> IVFDF Eastbourne, Lichfield and Southam are purely dance festivals,
> the others include other folk activities.  IVFDF and Lichfield are
> just weekends, the others are week-long, or include a public holiday
> Monday
> 
> I recommend Chippenham to people who want to sample a festival since
> it has everything, but is only a weekend.  Sidmouth is enormous
> (which you might regard as an advantage, or not); the other week-
> long summer festivals are much smaller so you tend not to get much
> choice of dance so if there is some band or caller you positively
> hate then you might find it difficult to avoid them (but then,
> why would a festival book anyone you hate?)
> 
> There are also various dance weekends, in particular at
> Halsway Manor,
> http://www.halswaymanor.co.uk/ but also at assorted Adult Education
> residential centres and hotels.  From time to time people organise
> days of dance with workshops in the day and evening dances, and of
> course lots of clubs organise dances so you can usually find
> somewhere to dance on a Saturday evening.
> 
> US visitors may want to see Bob Archer's page at
> http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm
> or Colin Hume's advice at
> http://www.colinhume.com/american.htm
> 
> 
> Hugh Stewart
> 
> 
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 09:21:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Wed, 8 May 2002, Susan wrote:
> Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
> [Well Hall]
> >"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."
> >
> >	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
> >unreasonable.
> 
> I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
> beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
> continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
> rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
> achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
> ideal of symmetry.

	Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over the
left shoulder out of the circle?

	Sigh, there's just an excess of Caroso in my training.  I'm far
too used to a clockwise motion being followed by counterclockwise turn. 
I've tried to embrace the earlier symmetries, but that Guglielmo stuff
just confuses me when I try to grok the patterns.  :-)


					--Ian


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From: CF1125-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated Wed, 8 May 2002  8:03:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org> writes:
 
but by the Regency era it seems to be out
>of fashion.

>Susan

Pardon my ignorance (and laziness in not looking it up somewhere), but I've been meaing to ask this for some time: Can someone define "Regency" both in terms of time and place, and in terms of dance style?
Thanks.
Carl Friedman
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:05:09 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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Ian writes:
>On Wed, 8 May 2002, Susan wrote:
>> Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
>> [Well Hall]
>> >"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."
>> >
>> >	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
>> >unreasonable.
>> 
>> I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
>> beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
>> continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
>> rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
>> achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
>> ideal of symmetry.
>
>	Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over the
>left shoulder out of the circle?

I was using Patricia's description:

>.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
>the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
>other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect of
>having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....

Head couple is "casting up", second couple "casting down".  I think.
Everyone turns away from their partner.  I personally don't find
that a pleasing effect at the end of a hands four round.  YMMV.

>	Sigh, there's just an excess of Caroso in my training.  I'm far
>too used to a clockwise motion being followed by counterclockwise turn. 
>I've tried to embrace the earlier symmetries, but that Guglielmo stuff
>just confuses me when I try to grok the patterns.  :-)

You and I are in violent agreement here; we're both seeing those
Caroso curves.  But I don't think that's what a MECD cloverleaf is; my
understanding of the MECD jargon is that they mean what Patricia
describes.  I could be wildly wrong on this.  Hopefully someone will
clarify.....

Susan


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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:21:11 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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generalist.org
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Carl writes:
>Pardon my ignorance (and laziness in not looking it up somewhere), bu=
>t I've been meaing to ask this for some time: Can someone define "Reg=
>ency" both in terms of time and place, and in terms of dance style?

Sorry.  I'm using it very carelessly.  Technically, the English
Regency refers to the period from 1811-1820 when the future George IV
was the Regent for George III (of American Rev. War fame), who had
finally gone permanently mad.

I am using the term to refer to the period from the end of the 18th
century (and I can't pick an exact date) to the 1820's, when the
country dance had its last big hurrah as a ballroom style, after which
it was mostly killed off by the quadrille and the round dances (waltz,
polka).  This period feels to me stylistically distinct, dramatically
so relative to the very early Playford material (pre-1700) and
somewhat, though less so, from the mid-18thc dances.  I am primarily
referring to English sources, since that's mostly what I work with.
American dance of the period seems to have been similar in style.

Historical-cultural references would include the Napoleonic wars and
Jane Austen's writings.

Susan





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From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single - the final word  (joking)
To: ECD-AT-
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I am not convinced, because (as I have noted before) I rely more heavily on
evidence in things that were made to last for the evidence of what a
society considered pleasing.
When you say that there was a bias against the mirror kind of symmetry in
earlier 17th century material, my response is that one needs only to browse
through a book on Elizabethan gardens to realize the bias was probably the
bias of a few individuals who felt strongly enough about their opinions to
write down careful instructions on how the figures were done. One should
always consider that one of the main reasons why anyone would go to the
trouble of writing down instructions for popular dance moves is that the
author feels they know better than the average instructor. Often such
instructions are designed to stem the tide of popular stylistic change.
There are many examples where this is the case. To mention a few through
history, there are the common assumptions that Country Dancing originated
in France, that puritans frowned on dancing, that one should never
embellish a Ladies Chain with twirls, etc... The recent writings of Ted
Sannella, Dan Pearl, Larry Jennings, and many others on the proper way to
organize, instruct, and lead contradancing are just such materials that
people in the future will look at as irrefutable proof of the way things
were done. However, the astute ones will recognize that there is a flip
side to everything. The only reason anyone would indicate that the Ladies
Chain should be done without twirls is that the move is common practice at
many contradances. Consequently, my approach is to absorb as much as I can
of the lifestyle, financial status, and artistic tastes of a people whose
dances I am trying to interpret because then I can use my own intuition in
association with the tune and arrive at an interpretation that I feel is
closer to the actual than any written accounts.

Back to the cloverleaf -
I am no expert on the written record of the period in Europe. This is in
part because I place little credence in the opinions of individuals but
strive rather for a "generalist" (no pun intended, Susan) view, that is
tempered by recognizing the fact that geographical dialectic styles were
more prevalent in the days when travel was limited or slow and electronic
media did not exist. However, in arriving at my interpretation of Playford
dances, I have found that MIRROR SYMMETRY is compatible with other artistic
efforts that demonstrate that this was a pleasing, not an awkward
attribute. This does not refute the fact that PARALLEL SYMMETRY was also
pleasing, and I often think that my own enjoyment of these dances is in the
way that the figures shift from one symmetry to the other. It is in the
transitions that the craft of the choreographer becomes evident. The
passion of this society included other attributes such as REPETITION and
when a choreographer can incorporate the moves that their audience finds
pleasurable in SEAMLESS FLOW (another fascination) and in ways that speak
the music and also perhaps emphasize the CONTRAST, then their dances became
popular. I also find that there is some satisfaction in the symmetry of a
whole dance. Dances like Juice of Barley where the instructions are the
same for everyone - everyone does every figure, the same choreography, and
yet you still progress - have a whole dance symmetry that is marvelous.

Let me describe just two figures of 2 dances to exemplify why I think they
were pleasing to the dancers then and now. (I will start with the last
figure followed by first).
Hole in the Wall contains 2 casts in a row (mirror symmetry and repetition)
but what makes these figures particularly interesting is that they span the
end of the music and the beginning of the next time through the tune. One
notices that the melody shifts particularly BECAUSE the choreography
repeats (contrast). This has the same appeal as dancing the same dance with
new partner or the common contradance habit of playing medleys of tunes so
that you have the same choreography and partner but different music. It is
the repetition and sameness that points up what is different.
Purcell's Maggot (Siege of Limerick) has a similar figure, but with a new
hitch - the first Lady stops after one cast while her partner continues the
repetition. Just when you thought she was not involved in the repetition,
you find that she has a delayed repeat that has turned her role from
simultaneous mirror symmetry to temporal symmetry and repetition such that
the dance gains a canonic feel for this first part.

I could go on and on but suffice it to say that I draw evidence that mirror
symmetry, exemplified in the cloverleaf turn single was pleasurable to the
Playford era dancers from multiple sources. Rarely are my sources the
written record nor are they from elsewhere in Europe because I think it is
quite conceivable that tastes may have varied considerably over distances
and fads amongst the nobility were transient. Here are a sampling of the
kind of evidence I used in concluding that the cloverleaf was a desirable
interpretation of Playford era dances:
1) The frequency of choreography such as casting which permeates the dances
to such an extent that I find it dubious to think that there was a bias
against this kind of symmetry (unless we are doing casting wrong).
2) The music of the period favors contrary motion to parallel motion in a
style that became known as counterpoint. (Repetition in the form of motifs
on different pitches were also very popular).
3) The Architecture and Landscaping of this period and the Elizabethan show
unusual dedication to mirror symmetry. It is the first thing to strike the
eye. (Once again repetition repetition was abundant).

Just as siding contains a portion of a gypsy, in my opinion turning single
should feel like casting but with the twist that you do not pass another
person but rather return to your starting position. (What becomes important
is what orientation you want for the next figure because the TS should send
you easily into the rest of the dance).

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 08:57:50 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:57:49 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I agree that a Turn Single over the left shoulder (turning OUT rather than
IN to the circle) after circling left (i.e., clockwise) is preferable to a
cloverleaf.
However, which is best to use in any particular situation is as much
determined by the figure that comes after as the figure that preceeds.



                                                                                                                                   
                      Susan                                                                                                        
                      <susan-AT-
generalist.org>           To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      Sent by:                         cc:       susan-AT-
generalist.org                                              
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Re: cloverleaf turn single                                        
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      09-May-2002 10:05 AM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   





Ian writes:
>On Wed, 8 May 2002, Susan wrote:
>> Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
>> [Well Hall]
>> >"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn
S."
>> >
>> >         A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not
be
>> >unreasonable.
>>
>> I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
>> beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
>> continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
>> rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
>> achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
>> ideal of symmetry.
>
>            Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over
the
>left shoulder out of the circle?

I was using Patricia's description:

>.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
>the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
>other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect
of
>having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....

Head couple is "casting up", second couple "casting down".  I think.
Everyone turns away from their partner.  I personally don't find
that a pleasing effect at the end of a hands four round.  YMMV.

>            Sigh, there's just an excess of Caroso in my training.  I'm
far
>too used to a clockwise motion being followed by counterclockwise turn.
>I've tried to embrace the earlier symmetries, but that Guglielmo stuff
>just confuses me when I try to grok the patterns.  :-)

You and I are in violent agreement here; we're both seeing those
Caroso curves.  But I don't think that's what a MECD cloverleaf is; my
understanding of the MECD jargon is that they mean what Patricia
describes.  I could be wildly wrong on this.  Hopefully someone will
clarify.....

Susan






================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:26:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020509172614.86843.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com>
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While it is Alan's role to chastise posters who go beyond acceptable
levels of courtesy on this list, I think the point has been reached
in the continued, public attacks on Susan by certain list members,
even after Alan's last post on this subject should have closed all
discussion completely, where it behooves others of us to stand up
publicly and make it clear that we as a community do not sanction
this behavior.  Frankly, I am ashamed to acknowledge that these
individuals are part of our community, and I apologize to Susan for
their behavior.  I would also add that since joining the list Susan
has been nothing but an asset.  With her impressively detailed
command of primary sources and her perspective as a researcher from
outside the strictly Playford period, she has added enormously to the
quality of discussion and knowledge of dance history on this list. 
It would be a great loss to us if the kind of personal attacks to
which she has been subjected were to discourage her from continued
participation, or others like her who might be disuaded from
participating after witnessing her treatment.

Barbara Ruth


--- "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> So, "Susan Generalist" -
> whom or what are you afraid of that lets you remain so secretive
> about your
> identity? The nosy strangers perhaps on whom you lavish your
> innuendo,
> right along with condescention?
> 
>   _-AT-
_      {)/'
>  /\ /\_._,<_/
> '  \      /_\
>    />    /<  Hanny, who has encouraged you before to stand up -
> figuratively speaking - and be counted.
> 


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:42:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:42:10 -0700
From: ruthtemple-AT-
ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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I agree with Barbara.

Shame on you, Hanny. Personal attacks do NOT belong in polite society, even if you disagree with someone's opinions or research.

You've driven me away from wanting to follow this list. ew.

Ruth 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:56:31 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:57:34 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I agree with Barbara for the most part. Susan has the right to be an
anonymous contribor if that is her wish. I do not view Hanny's message
as a personal attack, just a tactless display of curiosity. We usually
shrug off these things in ordinary conversation.
Al

--
Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
102 Loring Avenue
Pelham, NY 10803

Tel. 914 738-7678
Fax: 718 405-8037



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:13:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:14:08 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CDABC6F.ADF48171-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <E175oXd-000227-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>

Ian wrote:
>       Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over the

>left shoulder out of the circle?

Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.

In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,
Al



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:24:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:40:05 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: BEFORE the list goes down in flames..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF0F5EF9E1.C18E11CF-ON85256BB4.006393C6-AT-
infinity.com>
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Let's all remember that even people of good will can, in conscience,
disagree. They can even disagree about matters of deep and pervasive
importance to themselves and the world--and remain in relationship. For
example, my grandparents--my grandfather a good Democrat, my grandmother
forever muttering about how Roosevelt had ruined the country.
It is the style of our disagreement--not its occurrence--that matters here.
There are *two* disagreements here, one confused with another--which is why
things seem suddenly to have taken an ugly turn. The first concerns one of
the usual and appropriate topics of the list; the other concerns backing
one's opinions or claims with one's reputation and identity. If I may
indulge in a little mind-reading, I think in part Hanny is saying, "I don't
agree with you, but you seem to be wearing a mask, so how can I deal with
my points of disagreement?"

At earlier points, list members have been encouraged to use full names
rather than bylines, initials, or number strings. And certainly *I* am
inclined to delete messages from initials or number strings without reading
them. To me, it's always better to put your name to your views. A list like
this is a form of public meeting or continuing conference--and, anonymity
in email is always an illusion.

But certainly, courtesy--and, the benefit of the doubt--must be utilized,
even in the midst of principled disagreements.

My response--to *all* of us is:

Off with the mask! but also:

PAUSE before SEND.

Graham ['Arbiter Elegantiae'] Christian


"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:29:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:29:19 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100302b9006e002b36-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>
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References: <E175oXd-000227-00-AT-
black.generalist.org> <3CDABC6F.ADF48171-AT-
sprintmail.com>

At 2:14 PM -0400, on 5/9/02, Albert Blank wrote:

>Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
>(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.
>
>In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,

It doesn't disturb me but it does confuse me. Is the "right/left" 
distinction based on dancers facing up/down or is it based on dancers 
facing across?
-- 
Gary
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:35:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:31:38 -0400
From: Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net>
Subject: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CDAC08A.6070107-AT-
comcast.net>
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web13606.mail.yahoo.com> <3CDAB88D.2C0F0AAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>

First of all, I took the note referred to below as just Hanny being 
Hanny.  Years past, the late Philadelphia Bulletin did an aritcle on 
folk dancing in Philadelphia and referred to her as "the General Patton 
of Folk Dance".  That's a bit unfair to Hanny, but apt.

It's amusing to see this controversy recur yet again.  I've been using 
the internet since the late-70's -- long before the Web was invented -- 
and recall this controversy time and time again.  The first means for 
anonymous posting was then known as netnews or just plain news and every 
few weeks some news reader would get bent out of shape because someone 
else used a UID or other pseudonomic signature.

Plus ça change...

    Stay well; stay agile

    Dick Wexelblat

P.S.  Recall the oft quoted New Yorker cartoon: "On the Internet no one 
knows you're a dog."



Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore wrote:

>I agree with Barbara for the most part. Susan has the right to be an
>anonymous contribor if that is her wish. 
>--
>Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
>102 Loring Avenue
>Pelham, NY 10803
>
>Tel. 914 738-7678
>Fax: 718 405-8037
>
>
>
>


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:50:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:51:58 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CDAC54E.2E4FC044-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <E175oXd-000227-00-AT-
black.generalist.org> <3CDABC6F.ADF48171-AT-
sprintmail.com> <p05100302b9006e002b36-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>

Hello, Gary,

The "minor set" (in a longways set) implied below indicates that corners
(diagonals) refers to dancers facing across. A caller would have to be
very explicit if anything else was meant.
--
Al

"Gary D. Shapiro" wrote:

> At 2:14 PM -0400, on 5/9/02, Albert Blank wrote:
>
> >Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
> >(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.
> >
> >In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,
>
> It doesn't disturb me but it does confuse me. Is the "right/left"
> distinction based on dancers facing up/down or is it based on dancers
> facing across?
> --
> Gary


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:57:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:57:28 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFFDAF34EA.7E07B0AA-ON85256BB4.00674E18-AT-
biogen.com>
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Another way to describe it, is that one couple turns single starting up the
set and the other down as in "cast" but do not progress (but rather return
to one's starting place). I also use cloverleaf to describe the same figure
but opposite turns so that one starts toward one's neighbor then together
they TS out from the set, separate and around to place. My rule of thumb
for these is to look at what comes before and what comes after. If the
figure before does not strongly indicate which way to turn, ask whether the
figure that follows is one in which you want to be facing your neighbor or
your partner. If it is either of those, start the cloverleaf by turning
toward that person, together turn away from the others and peal off back to
place facing for the next figure.

Cammy (and by the way my last name is Kaynor though I'm not sure why that
should matter)



                                                                                                                                   
                      "Gary D. Shapiro"                                                                                            
                      <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>               To:       ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)                 
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      09-May-2002 02:29 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




At 2:14 PM -0400, on 5/9/02, Albert Blank wrote:

>Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
>(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.
>
>In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,

It doesn't disturb me but it does confuse me. Is the "right/left"
distinction based on dancers facing up/down or is it based on dancers
facing across?
--
Gary




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:27:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 15:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0205091523490.49190-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 9 May 2002, Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore wrote:

> Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
> (diagonals) turn single left while left corners turn right.

All of this turn single stuff has me going in circles.  My basic question
is, if the dances dervie from the 17th and 18th centuries, when most were
illiterate, how did they know right from left?  And why?  And if they
didn't have wrist watches or that many clocks, how did they know what was
clockwise?  Would these limitations have changed how they define the
turns?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:53:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 15:44:56 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: BEFORE the list goes down in flames..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFA1628D0D.59C1F37E-ON85256BB4.006B8BB4-AT-
biogen.com>
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Graham,
Despite your attempt to justify as curiosity what another views as
intrusion, I feel that respecting another's privacy is part and parcel of
what I call "common courtesy." I have found that by being courteous and
respectful, one can develop the kind of trust that can bring about pleasant
and productive communication that benefits both parties. Isn't that what we
strive to do as dancers, callers, musicians, etc... in every interaction?
After another list member's attempts to pry, I contacted Susan off-line and
here is one snippet of our very enjoyable correspondence that I feel proves
my point.

Susan says:
...Is that enough intro?  :)  I will note that I now know more about
you, and you more about me, than I know about the entire rest of the list
put together...

I don't know what she looks like, I suspect she is fun to dance with, I
know we differ in opinion on very basic aspects of ECD (e.g., the
cloverleaf TS), but nonetheless, I enjoy her E-company and contributions.
Give others the benefit of the doubt and be tolerant (and who has been more
tolerant than Susan who has chosen not to identify herself further, been
nagged for it, and STILL shares her insight with us?). Privacy is a very
important thing and it is equally important that we respect people's
privacy.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:55:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 16:10:49 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: turning
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF12989BDF.178C858F-ON85256BB4.006DE00E-AT-
infinity.com>
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Well, the *dancing masters* weren't illiterate, insofar as we can
tell--otherwise, what would the market have been for the Playfords and
Walshes and Wrights? And even the poorest would have seen a town clock, and
been able to observe the direction of the hands' motion, even if the
numbers looked like nonsense.
However.

Directions from the 17th and 18th c. do not say (for the most part)
"clockwise" or "corners" or "diagonals." They might say "go about" or "four
hands quite round"--but with no indication of direction. Hence the
controversies about the *direction* of a turn or a movement. *They* (that
is, the dance-composers, and their audience of other dancing-masters
[mistresses?]) took it for granted--but times have changed. Indeed, as
Susan observed, the left-default of the mid-17th c. seems to have become a
right-default by the late 18th c.

They say "1. man and 2. wo."--but not first corners or first diagonals.
That's a modern abbreviation. Why are the "firsts" first?--I *suspect*, for
sexist/dextrous reasons--because of that "first man", and because it does
make the "right" diagonal observed from the top of the hall.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:55:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:57:09 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001101c1f793$b4f828e0$c42a4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
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References: <20020509172614.86843.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com> <3CDAB88D.2C0F0AAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>

Hi folks:

I agree with Barbara; Susan's contributions have been fascinating and
scholarly, and I for one haven't felt condescended to. She has knowledge and
is willing to share it, and the perspective from another part of the dance
forest is illuminating.

As for anonymity...she's not anonymous. She's Susan. If she chooses to make
that the total of her name, it's her choice. And if she chooses to be
private about her group affiliations (if any) and address, that's her choice
too.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:22:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 16:20:08 -0400
From: "Green, David" <Green-AT-
gts.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Rights and Lefts
To: "ECD List (E-mail)" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <7348C1502B13F344843330794758CFD11D92DF-AT-
mail.GTS.EDU>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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For those having trouble with "right" and "left," or "clockwise" and "anticlockwise," there's the alternative of "dextrorotary" and "levorotary."  There's always another way to express something ...
 
-- David

--Boundary_(ID_T7xyOxfgRuKd0Qob2so2mg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=980111920-09052002><FONT face=Arial size=2>For those having 
trouble with "right" and "left," or "clockwise" and "anticlockwise," 
there's&nbsp;the alternative of "dextrorotary" and "levorotary."&nbsp; There's 
<STRONG>always</STRONG> another way to express something ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980111920-09052002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980111920-09052002><FONT face=Arial size=2>-- 
David</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_T7xyOxfgRuKd0Qob2so2mg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:05:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020509210549.91617.qmail-AT-
web13604.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net> wrote:
> First of all, I took the note referred to below as just Hanny being

> Hanny.  Years past, the late Philadelphia Bulletin did an aritcle
> on 
> folk dancing in Philadelphia and referred to her as "the General
> Patton 
> of Folk Dance".  That's a bit unfair to Hanny, but apt.
 
But it is Susan who is being insulted, and she is a newcomer to this 
group who can't be expected to know that Hanny is just being her own
irascible self.  Besides which, the fact that someone makes a habit
of being offensive and objectionable does not therefore make it more
acceptable coming from them.  Hanny has attacked Susan twice now on
this list, the second time after Susan made it quite clear that she
doesn't appreciate this direction of inquiry and after the list-owner
made it clear that there is no basis for the subject to be raised
again.  For anyone who has never been subject to these kinds of
attacks, I assure you it is a painful experience.  I am not willing
to assent by my silence to this being done to anyone, nor am I
willing to stand by while these attacks drive a valuable member off
the list.
B.


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:19:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 22:16:26 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000b01c1f79e$c7810760$c4b401d5-AT-
michael>
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And there was me thinking that Hanny was a male!!!

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU] On Behalf Of Barbara Ruth
Sent: 09 May 2002 22:06
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)


--- Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net> wrote:
> First of all, I took the note referred to below as just Hanny being

> Hanny.  Years past, the late Philadelphia Bulletin did an aritcle
> on 
> folk dancing in Philadelphia and referred to her as "the General
> Patton 
> of Folk Dance".  That's a bit unfair to Hanny, but apt.
 
But it is Susan who is being insulted, and she is a newcomer to this 
group who can't be expected to know that Hanny is just being her own
irascible self.  Besides which, the fact that someone makes a habit
of being offensive and objectionable does not therefore make it more
acceptable coming from them.  Hanny has attacked Susan twice now on
this list, the second time after Susan made it quite clear that she
doesn't appreciate this direction of inquiry and after the list-owner
made it clear that there is no basis for the subject to be raised
again.  For anyone who has never been subject to these kinds of
attacks, I assure you it is a painful experience.  I am not willing
to assent by my silence to this being done to anyone, nor am I
willing to stand by while these attacks drive a valuable member off
the list.
B.


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of
one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not
safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:24:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:17:12 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFC70B94E4.E72C2589-ON85256BB4.00745A89-AT-
biogen.com>
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Graham,
In rereading what I wrote on the ECD list, I realize it sounded as though I
was criticizing your message because it was addressed to you (the most
recent respondent). I did not intend it that way. I support your example of
assuming Hanny meant no harm and of being tolerant of slip-ups in
etiquette. I guess I was trying to add that such mistakes should be taken
as encouragement to pay more attention to tendencies to forget common
courtesy when we are consumed with curiosity.

I have been thinking about how often in my short sojourn here on the list I
have admonished people to think about the impact of things from the
perspective of the newcomer. On issues of courtesy, we must also be careful
not to turn away more experienced dancers. Example just today:
"...You've driven me away from wanting to follow this list..."

Recently my 6th grade boy was beaten up by bullies on the playground at
school. That was upsetting but what was really traumatic for me was the
frequency with which we heard "boys will be boys" as justification for the
episode from school administrators, local police, and school committee
members. Boys will be boys is an explanation, not a justification and
should not be used as an excuse for complacency. Let's not fall into the
trap of saying "Hanny will be Hanny" but rather do as has been done on the
list this day - remind her AND ourselves to be sensitive to all other
members of the group.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:43:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:43:20 -0400
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: BEFORE the list goes down in flames..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <6076277A.5805D4DC.0003FAAA-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated Thu, 9 May 2002 =A03:54:11 PM Eastern Daylight Tim=
e, Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com writes:

>
>Graham,
>Despite your attempt to justify as curiosity what another views as
>intrusion, I feel that respecting another's privacy is part and parc=
el of
>what I call "common courtesy." I have found that by being courteous =
and
>respectful, one can develop the kind of trust that can bring about p=
leasant
>and productive communication that benefits both parties. Isn't that =
what we
>strive to do as dancers, callers, musicians, etc... in every interac=
tion?
>After another list member's attempts to pry, I contacted Susan off-l=
ine and
>here is one snippet of our very enjoyable correspondence that I feel=
 proves
>my point.
>
>Susan says:
>...Is that enough intro? =A0:) =A0I will note that I now know more a=
bout
>you, and you more about me, than I know about the entire rest of the=
 list
>put together...
>
>I don't know what she looks like, I suspect she is fun to dance with=
, I
>know we differ in opinion on very basic aspects of ECD (e.g., the
>cloverleaf TS), but nonetheless, I enjoy her E-company and contribut=
ions.
>Give others the benefit of the doubt and be tolerant (and who has be=
en more
>tolerant than Susan who has chosen not to identify herself further, =
been
>nagged for it, and STILL shares her insight with us?). Privacy is a =
very
>important thing and it is equally important that we respect people's
>privacy.
>
>Cammy
>

As one who, several months ago, asked Susan (respectfully and gently,=
 I thought) who she is, I'd like to chime in at this point. First, wh=
en I asked the question originally, it didn't cross my mind that Susa=
n was intentionally being anonymous, or that anyone would have a reas=
on for being anonymous to this list. I assumed that she had her e-mai=
l program automatically sign her messages "Susan" and asked what I th=
ought was an ordinary, innocent question. I agree that everyone is en=
titled to all the e-mail anonymity and privacy they want (although I =
still can't imagine why anyone would feel the need), but I'd still li=
ke to know with whom I'm having a conversation. Given Susan's obvious=
ly informed, researched, and interesting insights into ECD, which cle=
arly come from a viewpoint different from mine and from most (all?) o=
ther list members, it seemed an appropriate question: of all the many=
 Susans I have met or will meet in the future on the dance floor, whi=
ch (if any) is this Susan? won't it be delightful when I
Carl Friedman

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:45:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:43:32 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: turning
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: susan-AT-
generalist.org
Message-ID: <E175vhE-0002PE-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>
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"Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu> writes:
>All of this turn single stuff has me going in circles.  My basic question
>is, if the dances dervie from the 17th and 18th centuries, when most were
>illiterate, how did they know right from left?  And why?  And if they
>didn't have wrist watches or that many clocks, how did they know what was
>clockwise?  Would these limitations have changed how they define the
>turns?

Graham has already observed that the term clockwise (among others)
wasn't used to describe moves.  Right and left, however, were
well known fairly early on, although I have no idea why.  Fascinating
question.

The earliest dance source I have handy is generally considered to be
pre-1455, and includes numerous mentions of left and right feet,
albeit in Italian: "...comenzando al pede sinistro e fazando fine al
drito..."[beginning on the left foot and ending on the right].  They
knew the terms and the concept.  So why leave them out?  Either
1) it didn't matter, or 2) it was unnecessary because "everyone knew."

I don't know what the literacy rate was in general, although I'm sure
someone has studied that question, but it seems a fair assumption that
the audience for dance manuals was literate, else the manuals are
useless, and middle class or better, since they had money for manuals
and time to look at them.  "Country dances" does not imply that these
are the dances of the illiterate peasantry - one of the earlier
references to them is of Queen Elizabeth I's ladies dancing them
for her entertainment.

Susan
Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:15:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:11:15 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Day as Child Health Day
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020501.101115.-1958079.1.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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It may not be generally known, but in 1924, May Day was named Child
Health Day.  Communities all around the U.S. held parades, fetes and
celebrations to raise public awareness of the importance of drinking milk
from t.b.-tested cows, fresh air, doctor's visits, etc.  Some of the
celebrations were traditional May Day type things; others involved the
staging of  purity plays such as "Marching to Wellville" or "Baby's
Godmothers."  These extolled the virtues named above. 

So for all of those who get up early tomorrow, please burst into the
rousing song that concluded the play, "Marching to Wellville."  It is
sung to the tune of Marching through Georgia.


Sing a song of healthy folks who have a happy life,
Free from all the ills and pains that fill some days with strife
Free from these diseases which we hear are often rife
     While we are marching to Wellville.

Chorus:  Hurrah!  Hurrah!  Pure food and water too!
Hurrah!  Hurrah!  No time for feeling blue!
So we sing and so we hope you'll all be singing too
     While we are marching to Wellville.

Sing a song of vegetables that in the garden grow,
Carrots and potatoes and the things we all love so
That they'll bring us rosy cheeks sure everyone should know
     While we are marching to Wellville.

Chorus

Sing a song of exercise that makes our muscles strong,
Sing a song of everything that helps the work along,
Don't you want to join our band and sing our happy song?
     While we are marching to Wellville.


Allison ("I'm not making this up") Thompson


P.S.  We still celebrate Child Health Day, but it is now in October, for
reasons unknown.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 15:42:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:26:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Roger W. Broseus" <roger-AT-
just.net>
Subject: A Few Choice Spaces Left: Washington (DC) Spring Ball (fwd)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205011824580.6629-100000-AT-
ever>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

OK: maybe more than a few choice spaces! We've got a large hall and lotsa
space. This is REALLY a reminder. The 16th Annual, Washington Spring Ball
is right around the corner on May 18th.

Highlights:

Afternoon Practice Session
Followed by potluck (out-of-towners: just bring yourselves) and place to change
Reception at 7:30 followed by Ball at 8:00
Did I say: Friendly dancers?
Talk-thrus and prompting of dances for a few rounds

INFO, including program of dances, directions and an easily printed 
registration form: http://www.just.net/~roger/ball2002/

-- Roger W. Broseus
   Registrar, 16th Annual Washington Spring Ball


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 21:35:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 01:27:57 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502.003327.-112359.5.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
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I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
with regard to this:

1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
at the dance's conclusion.

2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
Robin.'")

3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
(longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.

In the interest of impartiality, I won't say which of these categories I
fall into. But I'd be curious to know others' opinions on this.

Dawn Culbertson

________________________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:31:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 06:30:06 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000c01c1f19a$7be446a0$e23f86d9-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Date: 02 May 2002 05:36 Subject: Announcing dances


Dawn wrote...How do you feel about callers announcing the dance's title in
advance?

As a musician, I watch a great deal from the stage and see who sits out, as
much as I notice those who dance.

It seems that for much of the time and for many people who are going to get
up and do every dance it probably really makes little difference.

To those, like my wife, who wish to be selective, due to physical reasons of
arthritis, or restricted energy, hard of hearing, etc., it would be useful
to be able to enter into the dances you know you can or fell able to do.

Finding out late on in the call for instance that you have to "dance" this
one instead of walk, may be a reason for needing to drop out again, if one
is unable to rant or step or skip-change.

Similarly, having sat out for an hour, if a dance comes up that is one that
can be coped with, it would be nice to know in advance, rather than putting
one's coat on and going home early.

It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals its true number
only when it has arrived at the stop or after you have got on! We all like
to go to the right place, but not necessarily the same place.
Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:19:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:11:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KH8DUMNY2I8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Dawn wrote:

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
> doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
> with regard to this:

> 1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
> title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
> at the dance's conclusion.

> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")

> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.

I sometimes find myself calling with groups of a dozen people, half of whom
might suddenly decide to sit out.  So I'll say "take partners and form up and
I'll tell you what we're dancing when I see how many we have."  (It's
particularly fun to get three couples up, pick a three-couple dance, tell the
band what dance it is, and as you start to teach the three-couple dance have
a fourth couple join.)

I do try to make clear whether the next thing has skipping, slipping, or
ranting in it.

But slightly more directly-related to the question: I've found that almost
invariably the cases where people ask me the name of the dance are the cases
where I've already said it two or three times and they either weren't paying
attention or just didn't have a referent for it.  For a new dancer, "make a
longways set for Ore Boggy" doesn't really tell them anything; after they've
danced it, if they get the name again they have something to associate it with.

And to actually answer the question, as a dancer, I like to hear

"Form a [formation] for [dance name]", or possibly "the next dance is [dance
name]; take partners and make a [formation]".

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:31:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:20:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Talking about 3/2
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KH8EAP31IQ8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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ECDers (especially leaders, or analytical dancers) --

It's relatively easy to understand dancing in duple time - people can hear the
beats clearly, it lines up well with setting steps, phrasing is usually pretty
clear, and I think it's usually a good idea to start off evenings, or to start
off new dancers, with duple time dances - jigs, reels, etc.  It's also fairly
intuitive to dance in waltz time; the most correction needed for how new
dancers do it is to persuade them to put one foot _in front_ of the other and
to keep fairly flat.  A contra dancer who's never done English can deal with
all of that.

3/2 time is different.  Phrasing is often different - something that shows up
fairly often is "neighbors lead out for one bar, turn and lead back in for one
bar", which is often a surprise.  Even in a dance-walk, you may step
differently for triple time.  (Some of the best dancers still take two steps
for most measures and throw in an occasional three-step to "catch up".)  It's
just not obvious.  I've internalized this well enough, but I haven't
articulated it with ideal clarity.  Now I sometimes want to use 3/2 tunes at
Regency dancing, where there are a lot of new dancers, and I need to explain it
to them in a clear and non-misleading way.

(Most recently I tried to convey the idea of shorter phrases by suggesting that
you may not have as much time as you expect to do things.  This, of course,
resulted in excessive scurrying without particular reference to the music. 
Oops.)

One very useful thing I once saw was Bruce Hamilton pointing out exactly where
the first footfall happens in "Sally in Our Alley".  Do any of you have other
things to say that seem to promote understanding how to dance either
triple-time dances in general or specific 3/2 dances in particular; have you
heard somebody say something that made you understand it?

(I don't mean to limit the universe of explanation to the verbal.  If you do
demos or have seen demos that really helped, and can write them up, that
would be lovely too.)

Thanks in advance,

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:42:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Administrivia: hotmail is bouncing a lot of ECD mail
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01KH8ENNDVOC8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

ECders --

It appears that hotmail has decided to reject ECD list mail, although the
message I'm getting is not "we rejected your mail" but rather a list of 
a dozen ECD subscribers and a note that it was impossible to deliver to them.

It's unusual to get this for a dozen on a service at a time; I think the most
I've seen is two.

If you're reading this on hotmail, let me know.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 03:47:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:46:53 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021046.LAA30514-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dawn

I try to fall into Class 2 and generally achieve this.  In the UK, I suspect that most callers fall into Classes 2 or 3 if they are calling for an audience which has some knowledge (folk dancers, ceilidhs etc).  If you are calling for audiences that have little or no knowledge (one night stands, eg church social or PTAs) then Class 4 (announce the shape but never give the title) is not unusual.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


On Wednesday, May 01, 2002 at 01:27:57 AM, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
> doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
> with regard to this:
> 
> 1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
> title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
> at the dance's conclusion.
> 
> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")
> 
> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.
> 
> In the interest of impartiality, I won't say which of these categories I
> fall into. But I'd be curious to know others' opinions on this.
> 
> Dawn Culbertson
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 
> 


--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:26:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:26:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: David.Millstone-AT-
valley.net (David Millstone)
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <14658617-AT-
enfield.VALLEY.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'd like to second (or cry "Amen!") to Alan's observation: "I've found that
almost invariably the cases where people ask me the name of the dance are the
cases where I've already said it two or three times and they either weren't
paying attention or just didn't have a referent for it."

I announce titles at the start ("Form longways sets for 'Jack's Health' ") if
it's a dance that I think many of the dancers will recognize by title. If it's
less familiar, I'll ask for the desired formation and then, when folks are in
place, I'll announce, "We're going to dance 'Miss Cumquat's Maggot,' a recent
composition from the febrile brain of Vasilitis Romaneasceau." I usually repeat
the title after giving the directions, and sometime again at the conclusion of
having danced a less familiar one, so that the title has a chance of sinking in
now that the dancers have experienced it.

David "Sorry, I don't do Balkan" Millstone
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:45:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:43:44 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000f01c1f1e7$cd656c00$6602ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think we've discussed this, or a closely-related issue previously, but it
bears further discussion, since we've surely picked up new readers/posters
since.

I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
dances. The only places I've seen dances posted consistently are at various
Playford Balls, dance weekends, and evening events at recent Christmas
Country Dance Schools. The size and visibility of the various dance posters
has varied from a pencil-jotted note kept in the musicians'/caller's areas
to large, clearly printed signs visible from one end of the hall to the
other. The latter is a _lot_ more dancer-friendly!

And why do I prefer to know what's coming up? Same old problems: bad
shoulder; tricky back. I can do most dances without any trouble, given a
partner who is aware and considerate. And I do let my partners know my
abilities and limitations.

Formation of the dance isn't a problem  for me, but certain figures are,
particularly those requiring "duck and dive" figures, or facing-out circles,
or that figure whose name I can't recall which requires partners to link
arms behind backs while facing in opposite directions. In other words,
anything which torques my bad shoulder or places undue strain on my lower
back. And please, no California twirls or twirled ladies' chains! I do try
to firmly keep my arm low when someone tried to twirl me, but I often
encounter surprised looks when this happens - as if I'm being unfriendly and
uncooperative not to go along with someone else's idea of fun. That's not it
at all! So, rather than subject myself to a dance which I need to alter, or
to perturb partners or others, I'd rather just sit out and admire....if I
knew what was coming.

I can alter footwork - skipping depends on the floor surface and
supportability, for example, and a quick walk-step can be substituted if
need be. There are a few dances during which I'd prefer to sit out and enjoy
the music. Not knowing which category is likely to be called next is
extremely frustrating and limiting, as previously noted.

A caller once told me it "spoiled her sponteneity" to announce or post
dances. Given a choice, I'd far rather have "spoiled sponteneity" than a
spoiled rotator cuff or lower back.

So here's a vote for announcing and/or prominently and legibly posting
dances. If only one can be done, I'd favor the latter - it's a lot more
user-friendly.

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Dawn. I'm presently skipping a couple of
local contra dances because of this very issue.

Susan Booker
Lexington, KY

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:46:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:01:17 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFD5470740.2445C64D-ON85256BAD.00520108-AT-
infinity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ideally, I say, "Form a [*] for [name]," and then perhaps specify
hands-four or -six (or say, Keep your hands-# and take them somewhere in
the room for a set dance).
But at least as often, I'll have the band play a bit of it while the
dancers are approaching sethood to change the mood and give them
information (jig? duple?); some dancers will recognize the tunes.

And no matter what, I get someone who (partway through the teaching) will
say, What is this called?

But *after* the name, by far the most common question during the
announcement segment is: Is there a lot of slip-step in this dance?

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:50:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021450.g42Eo9R04561-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dawn C. Culbertson writes:
> 
> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")
> 
> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.

   I fall into both of these categories I suppose.  I always announce the
name of the dance before we dance it, but I'm not real strict about the
timing of the announcement.  When I'm calling contra dances I'm definitely
in the 3rd group (I also announce the author of the dance).  When calling
ECD I tend towards the 2nd group and I would say that is my goal, but
I don't always remember to do it that way.  I come from a contra dance
background where as a dancer it isn't necessary to know what the dance is
in advance, you learn it during the walkthrough.  However in our ECD group
we have quite a few people from the local international folk dance group
and they tend to want to know what the dance is in advance.  Their tradition
is to just announce the name of the dance and have everyone know not only how
it goes, but what the formation is without having to be told.  I don't
expect that to happen with our ECD group, but I do hope that the dancers
will come to recognise the names of the dances and perhaps remember some
of the details of some of them.

Jonathan

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|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:33 -0700
From: "Klein, Anita" <Anita.Klein-AT-
alza.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing dances
To: "'ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <7F0B0267D3BAD211A1A30010E37C16770759DB50-AT-
nt44.alza.com>
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Another reason, as a dancer, I like to know dances in advance:  I go to a
regular dance that usually has more women than men.  I don't mind dancing
the man's part sometimes but I can't waltz as a man.  If it's a dance with a
waltz I want to know in advance so I can choose an appropriate partner.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Corkett [mailto:alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:30 PM
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Announcing dances


Date: 02 May 2002 05:36 Subject: Announcing dances


Dawn wrote...How do you feel about callers announcing the dance's title in
advance?

As a musician, I watch a great deal from the stage and see who sits out, as
much as I notice those who dance.

It seems that for much of the time and for many people who are going to get
up and do every dance it probably really makes little difference.

To those, like my wife, who wish to be selective, due to physical reasons of
arthritis, or restricted energy, hard of hearing, etc., it would be useful
to be able to enter into the dances you know you can or fell able to do.

Finding out late on in the call for instance that you have to "dance" this
one instead of walk, may be a reason for needing to drop out again, if one
is unable to rant or step or skip-change.

Similarly, having sat out for an hour, if a dance comes up that is one that
can be coped with, it would be nice to know in advance, rather than putting
one's coat on and going home early.

It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals its true number
only when it has arrived at the stop or after you have got on! We all like
to go to the right place, but not necessarily the same place.
Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)

--Boundary_(ID_J3hg0nT7KOK+EyFu99wNuA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: Announcing dances</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Another reason, as a dancer, I like to know dances in advance:&nbsp; I go to a regular dance that usually has more women than men.&nbsp; I don't mind dancing the man's part sometimes but I can't waltz as a man.&nbsp; If it's a dance with a waltz I want to know in advance so I can choose an appropriate partner.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Alan Corkett [<A HREF="mailto:alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk">mailto:alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:30 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: Announcing dances</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Date: 02 May 2002 05:36 Subject: Announcing dances</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Dawn wrote...How do you feel about callers announcing the dance's title in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>advance?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>As a musician, I watch a great deal from the stage and see who sits out, as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>much as I notice those who dance.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>It seems that for much of the time and for many people who are going to get</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>up and do every dance it probably really makes little difference.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>To those, like my wife, who wish to be selective, due to physical reasons of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>arthritis, or restricted energy, hard of hearing, etc., it would be useful</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to be able to enter into the dances you know you can or fell able to do.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Finding out late on in the call for instance that you have to &quot;dance&quot; this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>one instead of walk, may be a reason for needing to drop out again, if one</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>is unable to rant or step or skip-change.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Similarly, having sat out for an hour, if a dance comes up that is one that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>can be coped with, it would be nice to know in advance, rather than putting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>one's coat on and going home early.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals its true number</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>only when it has arrived at the stop or after you have got on! We all like</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to go to the right place, but not necessarily the same place.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_J3hg0nT7KOK+EyFu99wNuA)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:50:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 15:52:25 +0100
From: Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <006d01c1f1e9$40219060$414579d5-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20020502.003327.-112359.5.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>

Dawn wrote:-

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the
list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about
callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important
or
> doesn't it matter?......... >>


I must admit I like to hear the title of the dance before getting up to
dance (even though I may fall into the category of "talking too much and
miss it"!)  I also like the band to play at least the first phrase of
the tune (or play the start of the CD/tape) as this also jogs the mind
into knowing what dance may be (I am terrible for remembering names) or
the timing of the music. The music also registers when finishing off
your sentence when you don't hear the caller announcing it.

And, the most important to me, please repeat the name of the dance AFTER
dancing it - it is then that you know if you if you like it or not - and
if you want to remember the name in order to find out more details about
it (or ignore it next time?)

So, when calling, I try to carry out all the above, except if calling at
a function when the name will mean nothing to anyone. But I still think
it important to play some of the tune - this lets most people know the
type/feel  of dance coming next.

Trevor Monson

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:55:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:01:07 -0700
From: Mary Devlin <mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B8F69F78.2FA8%mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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My preference as a dancer is to hear something like what Alan Winston
suggests:  "Form a [formation] for [dance name]", or possibly "the next
dance is [dance name]; take partners and make a [formation]".  As I think
back, I hope that's what I've usually said when announcing the next dance
(and if it's not, it will be now!).

As both a caller and dancer, I believe it is very important to give the name
of the dance (and attribution).  My practice is to give this information
(again) just before the dance starts.  How else can we help people start
making connections between dances and their names?  This is helpful for
people looking at ball programs, for those who want to avoid certain
figures, and for everyone -- we're a species that names things.  Names help
us make connections and remember.

I also feel that giving dancers the tune information before the dance is
critical, and this is something I very much want as a dancer.  I like the
musicians to play the tune through as dancers line up, or just before
teaching it.  Granted, this doesn't tell new dancers much in the way of the
name of the dance, but it does carry a lot of information for people who've
been dancing a while or who are starting to "get" the tune/dance
relationship (how quickly we might be moving;, "OH!  THIS dance!!; Gosh, a
slip jig, etc.)  (There are other benefits from this too for the musicians,
but that would be another thread.)

Mary


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:56:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 15:59:13 +0100
From: Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Administrivia: hotmail is bouncing a lot of ECD mail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <007601c1f1ea$05b565e0$414579d5-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <01KH8ENNDVOC8YEU84-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Alan,

Could it be that Hotmail have changed there policy recently and if you
have used up your 2KB it now simply ignores anything else until you
delete some emails.  With the amount of junk mail arriving, even if
filtered into the junkmail folder (this is only deleted automatically
after 2 weeks I think) your allocation can be filled in a couple of days
if you do not access your account to delete everything.

Trev


> ECders --
>
> It appears that hotmail has decided to reject ECD list mail, although
the
> message I'm getting is not "we rejected your mail" but rather a list
of
> a dozen ECD subscribers and a note that it was impossible to deliver
to them.
>
> It's unusual to get this for a dozen on a service at a time; I think
the most
> I've seen is two.
>
> If you're reading this on hotmail, let me know.
>
> -- Alan
>
>


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:59:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:59:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Administrivia: hotmail is bouncing a lot of ECD mail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021459.g42ExS708573-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes:
> 
> It appears that hotmail has decided to reject ECD list mail, although the
> message I'm getting is not "we rejected your mail" but rather a list of 
> a dozen ECD subscribers and a note that it was impossible to deliver to them.
> 
> It's unusual to get this for a dozen on a service at a time; I think the most
> I've seen is two.

   I've seen this happen periodically for the email lists that I run
(2 on dancing, 1 on rocketry).  It tends to last for a few days and then
resume working as normal.  Everyone on my lists who have hotmail will start
bouncing and then a few days later will start working again.  I've also
seen it happen for other email services.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:04:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:03:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021503.g42F3wR10517-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael Barraclough writes:
> 
> I try to fall into Class 2 and generally achieve this.  In the UK, I suspect that most callers fall into Classes 2 or 3 if they are calling for an audience which has some knowledge (folk dancers, ceilidhs etc).  If you are calling for audiences that have little or no knowledge (one night stands, eg church social or PTAs) then Class 4 (announce the shape but never give the title) is not unusual.

   I still announce the title (and author) when I'm doing one night stands.
I figure it only takes a couple of seconds and I want the participants to
know that these dances come from somewhere.

Jonathan

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:11:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:59:26 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about 3/2
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF6F4A457F.12952C37-ON85256BAD.00517121-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Alan,
I try to say nothing about it unless it appears necessary. When it seems
necessary, I prefer to demo.
I often play the tune for a 3/2 dance while I walk around the dance floor
so that people can SEE how my foot-falls articulate the beats. I find the
usual error for dancers unfamiliar with this tempo is to scurry with no
reference to the beat so I tend to over-compensate by urging them to be
RELAXED but EFFICIENT because there may be fewer steps than they expect for
the figures (of course in some dances/figures they have extra time compared
to the analagous 2/4 figure - e.g., 6 steps rather than 4).

I've written several 3/2 contras in which I actively discourage
embellishments because most of the figures are shorter. For example, a
Ladies Chain across (half chain) in 6 rather than 8 steps pretty much
requires an assisted courtesy turn to be ready for the next figure at the
beginning of the next phrase.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:12:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:45:16 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF0404F37A.49B88379-ON85256BAD.004F76B8-AT-
biogen.com>
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Dawn,
Most dancers ask me "what was that dance" AFTER they are done, when the
pleasure of dancing it is fresh in their minds and often even though I had
announced it prior to dancing it. So I think the most effective time to
name a dance is after. The announcement before was meaningless to those who
didn't recognize the title and they generally don't remember it when they
decide after dancing that it was a title they want to learn to recognize.
That's from the perspective of the caller, but I am just like those dancers
described above - I struggle with names to start with and until I know that
I really want to learn the name for a person or a dance, I don't bother
trying

However, (I always have exceptions) if I know that there are dancers out
there who wouldn't want to miss the up-coming dance (and I see them not
getting partners, not paying attention, socializing at the back of the
hall, etc...) or on the contrary if there are people who can't stand to do
the dance that I have in mind, I make a point of forewarning them.
Sometimes I even name the intended dance in advance such as -
"we'll start with Dargason after the break" (because there are some who
really dislike this dance and the fact that they interact so little with
their carefully chosen partner but there are some who revel in its
venerable mystique and would be heart-broken to miss it).
or
"we'll do one more contra and then a waltz" (for those who want to find a
particular partner for the waltz and those who are trying to decide whether
to call it a night now or wait for another 15 minutes to get in a last
waltz).

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:13:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:13:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205021513.g42FDOS14195-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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SUSAN B BOOKER writes:
> 
> I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
> dances. The only places I've seen dances posted consistently are at various
> Playford Balls, dance weekends, and evening events at recent Christmas
> Country Dance Schools. The size and visibility of the various dance posters
> has varied from a pencil-jotted note kept in the musicians'/caller's areas
> to large, clearly printed signs visible from one end of the hall to the
> other. The latter is a _lot_ more dancer-friendly!

   This is probably a worthy goal, but not practical at many dances.  At our
balls we have a prepared order of dances which is listed in the programs, 
along with the formation and some other tidbits of info on the dances.

   However at our regular monthly dances it would be impossible to prepare
a list of dances to be done in a particular order in advance and then stick
to it.  The variation in attendance, both in numbers and experience make that
impossible.  We come up with a list of possible dances in order to let the
band know which ones to prepare, but it is always much larger than we will
have time for.  Then we evaluate how many dancers we have and what their
skill level is and choose dances from the list on the fly.  Since this
can change during the course of the evening, as people arrive or leave,
we have to be able to adapt to the changing situation.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:16:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:08:20 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020502100613.00b0ab00-AT-
mail.mhtc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--Boundary_(ID_CDKjJ8qVYxD+NyQERI7s0A)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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At 01:27 AM 5/1/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
>When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
>announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
>doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
>with regard to this:


me...

"Form a longways set for Mr Smith's Maggot"

"Hand four, duple minor"

"Walk as I talk it"

"Listen to the tune for tempo, etc"

"Mr Smiths Maggot begins with first couple crossing..."


....


"That was Mr. Smith's Maggot"








(Dawn...in a nutshell I do like like callers/briefs that make me guess at 
the dance.....!!!"

--Boundary_(ID_CDKjJ8qVYxD+NyQERI7s0A)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<html>
<font size=3>At 01:27 AM 5/1/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I'd like to pose a question to all
you good folks out there on the list:<br>
When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about
callers<br>
announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important
or<br>
doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3
categories<br>
with regard to this:</blockquote><br><br>
me...<br><br>
&quot;Form a longways set for Mr Smith's Maggot&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Hand four, duple minor&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Walk as I talk it&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Listen to the tune for tempo, etc&quot;<br><br>
&quot;Mr Smiths Maggot begins with first couple
crossing...&quot;<br><br>
<br>
....<br><br>
<br>
&quot;That was Mr. Smith's Maggot&quot;<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
(Dawn...in a nutshell I do like like callers/briefs that make me guess at
the dance.....!!!&quot;<br>
</font></html>

--Boundary_(ID_CDKjJ8qVYxD+NyQERI7s0A)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:35:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:36:38 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b8f70b97801b-AT-
[140.186.54.234]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <200205021513.g42FDOS14195-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>


>SUSAN B BOOKER writes:
>>
>  > I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
>  > dances.

Then At 10:13 AM -0500 5/2/02, Jonathan Sivier wrote:

>    This is probably a worthy goal, but not practical at many dances.

It's really not that difficult.  All it takes is a piece of 
black/white board and chalk or some whiteboard markers.  Rest the 
board up against the piano or something at the top of the room and 
write in the name of the dance as the sets are assembling.
People who don't like to rant will know when to sit out, people who 
can't stand some specific dance will then not get trapped in to it, 
and everyone will start to learn the names, which is essential to 
ECD, to me.  After all, we have names attached to melodies to dance 
figure sequences - 3 cues to remembering.

And remembering is what permits better dancing because it frees the 
mind to anticipate and prepare to be on time for the next figure.  It 
also frees the mind to attend to the music so that the dancers dance 
with the music - a really important thing for good dancing.  In 
addition it frees the leader from having to prompt the entire dance 
and both add to the noise level and keep the dancers from hearing the 
music.

-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.beetlecat.com/gft-pics/ef-notes.htm
http://www.beetlecat.org/results/99champs.html
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook
landscape at:
http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:36:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:32:49 -0400
From: Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net>
Subject: On Announcing dances  - a comment from one with physical limitations
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CD15C21.2070901-AT-
comcast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20020502.003327.-112359.5.dcculb-AT-
juno.com> <006d01c1f1e9$40219060$414579d5-AT-
trevormo>

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
Due to physical problems, there are some dances I cannot do, do only with
difficulty, or prefer&nbsp; to avoid so as not to "drag down" others. &nbsp;As I've
been English dancing for a while (since 1955) I'm familiar enough with the
repertory that for the most part, I can decide upon hearing the name of the
dance whether I can do it or not. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
So I'd <i>very much</i> like the caller to announce the dance in advance.
&nbsp;That's preferable, for example, to dropping out of the middle of a set during
teaching, always getting in at the bottom, spoiling the dance for others,
or hurting myself. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
Some callers let me see the program in advance but some appear insulted when
I ask. &nbsp;Even explaining why appears to some to be an imposition. &nbsp;My physical
limitations are not apparent so I've even been accused of lying to get a
peek at a program.<br>
<br>
To be honest, I'd like to see programs posted and have callers announce a
change as early as possible.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regards<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dick Wexelblat<br>
<br>
P.S. &nbsp;I know she was just trying to be kind, but I really hated it a few
years ago when one caller "helped me" by announcing over the mike, "Dick,
you don't want to do this one." &nbsp;(...Without bothering to tell us the name
of the dance.)<br>
</body>
</html>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:40:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:07:57 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFC4F082E0.D82E9270-ON85256BAD.0052793D-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I forgot to say,
1) Announcing a title before dancing a dance, can scare a newcomer by
giving the impression that one is expected to recognize the name and know
the figures even if this is not the case. At the least, it makes it
terribly obvious the gap that exists between those who do know the dance
(by their exclamations of dismay or pleasure) and the newer dancers who
already are feeling somewhat uncertain and self-conscious.

2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things like -
"the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or "more difficult
so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing." As Alan said, it
is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,
arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected to
accomodate their special needs.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:48:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:41:07 -0400
From: Anne Lowenthal <annel-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002a01c1f1f0$6eedae40$8a8cfea9-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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juno.com>

Friends,

For the past few years at our regular Tuesday English dances in New York,
we've been posting the program.  Either I or the caller for that dance will
prepare about six copies, which we'll put on the walls around the hall.
Thus, in addition to hearing an announcement of a given dance's title either
as the sets are forming or in the course of the walk-through, dancers can
scan the program at any point in the evening.  They do that frequently,
especially at the beginning of the dance, or sometimes even quickly breaking
out of a set to check a name--and the programs disappear from the walls
after the dance is over.

We began to do this in hopes that knowing the names of the dances would add
enjoyment and increase familiarity with the repertoire. Then, in addition to
the immediate practical advantage of enabling dancers to plan ahead, either
to guard or spend their energies, there's our annual Gotham Assembly to
think about.  At the beginning of the fall season, all CD*NY members vote on
their five favorite dances from a list of the hundreds we did the previous
year.  Knowing the names helps!

But there's another advantage to knowing the name of a dance you're about to
do. It provides a kind of jump start, with kinetic memory (or whatever kind
of memory works for you) helping you through the patterns associated with
the title.  More efficient teaching and a higher level of dancing can be
among the rewards.

Anne Lowenthal

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:57:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:35:26 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF01F20F97.C66BFD61-ON85256BAD.00537985-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Susan Booker said:
I very much prefer dances to be announced, and even better is posting
dances. The only places I've seen dances posted consistently are at various
Playford Balls, dance weekends, and evening events at recent Christmas
Country Dance Schools. The size and visibility of the various dance posters
has varied from a pencil-jotted note kept in the musicians'/caller's areas
to large, clearly printed signs visible from one end of the hall to the
other. The latter is a _lot_ more dancer-friendly!

And why do I prefer to know what's coming up? Same old problems: bad
shoulder; tricky back. I can do most dances without any trouble, given a
partner who is aware and considerate. And I do let my partners know my
abilities and limitations....

1) I consider it one of the obligations of any dance leader to constantly
assess the dancers as to their capabilities, likes, and dislikes in order
to send them home as satisfied with their evening as possible. If I can't
tell, in short order, that person X hates to twirl, person Y has a shoulder
problem, person Q finds it difficult to steer person R (who has motor and
conceptualization problems) through a circular hey, then I have failed in
my obligation. I think that I may be able to change someone's dislikes so I
take some risks that may or may not pan out.

2) We all make mistakes, but in my opinion none could be worse than
devising a program for the evening in advance without consideration to any
of the above concerns. My program is determined by what I already know
about the regulars through previous encounters, which of the regulars
happen to be there on this night, and what I learn as I watch each dance
through the evening. Having someone approach me early in the evening and
say "can you tell me when you're doing a dance that doesn't have swinging"
or "one that is especially good for children" is a great luxury. Most
dancers are far more subtle and one has to search the faces for fleeting
expressions of anticipation, delight, dismay, disappointment, etc... In any
dance crowd, there are always conflicting desires, but the talent in dance
leadership really shows when the leader crafts the evening repertoire to
satisfy everyone present as best it can be done - this includes the
musicians. Knowing that the sit-ins struggled with the last tune figures in
my decision about the next in which I try to ask for something they know
well.

3) On top of all of this, I have my own preferences and tastes and even
philosophical tenets that color the choices I make and gradually dancers of
similar taste are attracted, some who are open-minded evolve a similar
taste, and some who don't "prefer" my approach still enjoy variety and come
for a dose of a different approach and different repertoire.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:12:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:09:44 -0400
From: Anne Lowenthal <annel-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <005201c1f1f3$c707ab00$8a8cfea9-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <200205021513.g42FDOS14195-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu> <a05100300b8f70b97801b-AT-
[140.186.54.234]>

Our posted programs are printed out, not graven in stone, and callers can
add, subtract, and substitute dances in response to the unexpected, such as
a sizeable influx of new dancers.  But we have found it useful to plan
programs so as to concentrate teaching early in the evening, put the most
difficult dances where energy and attention levels are likely to be high,
and save the end of the evening for just dancing.

Anne L.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:15:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:11:25 -0500
From: "M.G. Mudrey, Jr." <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020502105555.00afac90-AT-
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At 11:07 AM 5/2/02 -0400, you wrote:

>2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things like -
>"the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or "more difficult
>so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing." As Alan said, it
>is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,
>arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected to
>accomodate their special needs.
>
>Cammy

As long as you tell them the name of the dance.  If we do not let them know 
that is being danced, dancers are in no position to request a 
particuar/specific dance.

Easier or more difficult is not useful.  No dance is hard if you know it; 
no dance is easy if you have not seen it.

It would be more instructive to say "why" you think it is harder or 
easier.  Is it because of the number of figure, length of the dance, 
complexity of the tune, etc.

When novice and skilled dancers are all being taught a new dance, then all 
are on the same knowledge level. In that case, I have found that there is 
not necessarily a distinction among among the dancers.  I recall a long, 
contorted Scottish dance that we learned in the beginners group before the 
more skilled dancers came, and we ended up doing the teaching demo for them!

Jonathan mentioned another item that I forgot....write the dance name down 
before or during forming of the set (I use a small, dry erase board with 
easel ...perhaps with a note (key figure, history, etc to help recall).

I have some mild cognitive memory problems, and I have become more aware of 
verbal, kinesthetic, and demo learning.  Use all of them to be 
effective...tell them what you are going to do, do it, tell them what they 
did (to paraphrase teaching tell what what you are going to tell them, tell 
them, tell them what you told them).

mm

M.G. Mudrey, Jr.
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey
University of Wisconsin-Extension
3817 Mineral Point Road
Madison, WI 53705-5100
USA

Voice: 608-263-5495
Fax:    608-262-8086
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu

Survey Web Site: http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/

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<html>
<font size=3>At 11:07 AM 5/2/02 -0400, you wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>2) Rather than give the title
beforehand, I very often say things like -<br>
&quot;the next dance is easier,&quot; or &quot;faster and more
active,&quot; or &quot;more difficult<br>
so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing.&quot; As Alan
said, it<br>
is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,<br>
arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected
to<br>
accomodate their special needs.<br><br>
Cammy</blockquote><br>
As long as you tell them the name of the dance.&nbsp; If we do not let
them know that is being danced, dancers are in no position to request a
particuar/specific dance.<br><br>
Easier or more difficult is not useful.&nbsp; No dance is hard if you
know it; no dance is easy if you have not seen it.<br><br>
It would be more instructive to say &quot;why&quot; you think it is
harder or easier.&nbsp; Is it because of the number of figure, length of
the dance, complexity of the tune, etc.<br><br>
When novice and skilled dancers are all being taught a new dance, then
all are on the same knowledge level. In that case, I have found that
there is not necessarily a distinction among among the dancers.&nbsp; I
recall a long, contorted Scottish dance that we learned in the beginners
group before the more skilled dancers came, and we ended up doing the
teaching demo for them!<br><br>
Jonathan mentioned another item that I forgot....write the dance name
down before or during forming of the set (I use a small, dry erase board
with easel ...perhaps with a note (key figure, history, etc to help
recall).&nbsp; <br><br>
I have some mild cognitive memory problems, and I have become more aware
of verbal, kinesthetic, and demo learning.&nbsp; Use all of them to be
effective...tell them what you are going to do, do it, tell them what
they did (to paraphrase teaching tell what what you are going to tell
them, tell them, tell them what you told them).<br><br>
mm<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<i>M.G. Mudrey, Jr.<br>
Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey<br>
University of Wisconsin-Extension <br>
3817 Mineral Point Road<br>
Madison, WI 53705-5100<br>
USA<br><br>
Voice: 608-263-5495<br>
Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 608-262-8086<br>
Email: mgmudrey-AT-
wisc.edu<br><br>
Survey Web Site:
<a href="http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/" eudora="autourl">http://www.uwex.edu/wgnhs/</a><br>
</font></i></html>

--Boundary_(ID_c7HFB7NZdMRkFymoCo2afQ)--
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:16:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:18:57 -0500
From: Larry Stout <lstout-AT-
iwu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD166F1.CD14AEE3-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>
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As a musician I need for the dance to be announced before people start
forming sets so I can find the relevant music (We have arrangements of
some pieces which, alas, often might be in any one of four or five
different notebooks--if I organized my music collection it might be more
efficient, but it still takes a little time.)  I also like to know if
the dance coming up is one that I want to dance rather than playing.

Saying what the formation is is essential for ECD, particularly if the
group has become so used to contras that they automatically line up in
duple minor improper longways formation.  As a dancer I prefer the
pattern "Form two couple sets for Heliotrope Maggot" with the music
played once through the tune while the sets form.  Information about the
source of the dance and a reminder of its name at the end are also nice
to have.  At my favorite dance camps that pattern is common.

When I do contra dances I assume that every dance will have the same
formation, interchangeable music (not quite-- as a musician I've been in
on the "balances in B1--a lively bouncy jig would be good" discussion
for the choice of tunes immediately before the dance starts) and not
enough distinct variation for the names to matter much.  Even there I
would like to be warned that the next dance is a triple progression
Beckett (which I might want to avoid) or a triple minor (which I'd want
to be in).

Larry
-- 
Lawrence Neff Stout
Professor of Mathematics
Illinois Wesleyan University
http://www.iwu.edu/~lstout

"Fiddling is a viol habit."  Anon?
"Dancing is necessary in a well ordered society." Thoinot Arbeau
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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:29:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:48:43 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF3ED86BFC.7198D71A-ON85256BAD.00567133-AT-
biogen.com>
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I agree with Emily and Susan - that seeing the name of a dance written out
is helpful in learning to recognize it. Very often I cannot hear what the
caller said so it is helpful to see it written on a board.

However, I wouldn't recommend a board that has lists of requests, lists of
what's done and the name of what's coming up all on the same one. I can
never find the name of a dance at the Boston Wednesday nights because there
is so much on the board and I always have to ask someone to assist me in
discovering it.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:48:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502164843.12973.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk> wrote:

> I must admit I like to hear the title of the dance before getting
> up to dance. 

>I also like the band to play at least the first phrase of
> the tune as this also jogs the mind into knowing what dance may be 
> 
> And, the most important to me, please repeat the name of the dance
> AFTER dancing it - it is then that you know if you if you like it
or >not - and if you want to remember the name in order to find out
more >details about it (or ignore it next time?)

As a dancer I second all three points.  I've never liked or quite
understood the English dance rationale for not revealing programs or
refusing to announce dances until after people are lined up for it
(with contra dancing nowadays it doesn't matter, because all the
dances are the same).  It's like the Whitman's chocolate sampler box
approach - you aren't allowed to know what you've chosen until you
bite into it, and then you're not allowed to spit it out, or put the
rest back no matter how much you may dislike it.  I've always thought
there was something mean-spirited about the way those boxes always
included things that nobody would possibly choose (does anyone like
those jelly-filled things?) but gave you no clue as to what they are,
sort of "ha-ha, you think you're about to taste something wonderful
and we've got you."  There's that same mean-spiritedness in the, "We
don't give out the program because then dancers would make their own
choices about what they want to dance, and with whom", approach. 
It's legitimate for callers to not have a whole program that they can
list in advance because they are adapting to the particular dancers
who are attending each evening - "I'm in charge and the program is
for me to know and you to find out" is not.  In any case, there is no
excuse for not announcing the name of the upcoming dance immediately,
even if one doesn't have an entire evening programed.  Repeating the
name of the dance at the end of it, as Trevor and others have
suggested also helps people to associate a name with with a
particular dance.

Of course, if we Americans could get out of the habit of grabbing new
partners and forming up sets the nannosecond a dance ends, and adopt
the British custom as I understand of taking a few minutes between
dances and only forming up once the new dance is announced, it would
also help alleviate some of the problems of people having to commit
to a dance without knowing whether it's one they might have problems
with, or even just don't enjoy doing.

Finally, to Trevor's middle point, it's hugely helpful as a dancer to
hear the music first.  In addition to jogging the memory when a name
doesn't, it's really a requirement for learning a new dance.  In the
New Haven dances, the custom has always been to "hear a few bars of
the music" first, but I have been in other situations where there is
no musical preview and the entire walk-through is taught without any
music.  Thus when the dance starts you have no idea of tempo, or how
to time sequences to the music. 


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:16:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502171626.18086.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com wrote:
> 1) Announcing a title before dancing a dance, can scare a newcomer
> by giving the impression that one is expected to recognize the name
> and know the figures even if this is not the case.

I find this doubtful.  There is a lot going on for newcomers, and
much of it is intimidating, but it becomes obvious after one dance
that each dance is taught, regardless of whether it's name is
announced first.

> 
> 2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things
> like - "the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or
> "more difficult so try to find a partner who knows what they are >
doing." 

These provide very little information if one is trying to avoid
particular dances due to physical limitations.  For me, when my knee
is bothering me there are some dances I can't do.  There are other
times when my sinuses act up which gives me dizzy spells.  In that
case I might be just fine with everything except "Trip to Paris" or
"Long Odds".  Someone with a back or shoulder problem would have
entirely different dances that they shouldn't do.  Each individual
has a much better idea of what dances are good for them and what
aren't than the caller possibly could.

Barbara


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:42:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dfhart24-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <16c.d0e95a5.2a02d46c-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 5/2/2002 12:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:


> 
> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? 

My preference is to have the dance's title announced twice.  First along with 
the call to line up (in which formation) for the next dance, and then again 
after the teaching is completed and just before the dance begins.

Deborah

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 5/2/2002 12:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:<BR>
When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers<BR>
announcing the dance's title in advance? </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
My preference is to have the dance's title announced twice.&nbsp; First along with the call to line up (in which formation) for the next dance, and then again after the teaching is completed and just before the dance begins.<BR>
<BR>
Deborah</FONT></HTML>

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:08:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Join us on May Day morning to dance up the sun
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502180804.67124.qmail-AT-
web13802.mail.yahoo.com>
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> Portland area Morris Dancers will be dancing at 5:00am at
> the Rose Test Garden in Washington Park (not at the
> original Rose Garden in Peninsula Park a block down the
> street from me.) ;-{(

I didn't know you danced Morris anymore. Is this your once-
a-year event?

--L.




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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:11:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:14:50 -0700
From: Ruth Temple <ruthtemple-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CD1902A.3000501-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
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References: <20020502.003327.-112359.5.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>

My opinion, cheerfully engaged!
I happen to be in favor of 2 or 3, and am one of those who will ask the 
name of a dance if it hasn't been told after we've done it, because I 
like to know -- even though I have a rotten short-term memory for names 
on the fly; if I then want to go back home and learn the tune for XYZ, 
it will have at least that familiarity for me and sink more easily into 
my longer term memory.
I don't have a preference for whether the form or the title is announced 
first, though I do like having both those pieces of information.
My best preference is for folks who'll give a one-sentence history or a 
word about the author of a modern dance, so folks can get, or build up 
over time, that sense of fitting into the larger pattern of dancers, and 
those who make dances, in the world.
When a caller forgets give the name of the dance, and never mentions 
sources, they've left out some of what makes this dance, and this 
community, so special to me, and I feel that lack when it happens.
Thank you for the query!
Ruth Temple
in San Francisco


Dawn C. Culbertson wrote:

> I'd like to pose a question to all you good folks out there on the list:
> When you go to a regularly scheduled dance, how do you feel about callers
> announcing the dance's title in advance? Do you think it's important or
> doesn't it matter? In my area, callers seem to fall into 3 categories
> with regard to this:
> 
> 1. Callers who simply go ahead and call the dance without giving its
> title (unless someone specifically asks from the floor) or give the title
> at the dance's conclusion.
> 
> 2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
> line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
> Robin.'")
> 
> 3. Callers who give the formation they want the dancers to take
> (longways, 3-couple set, circle, etc.) and then announce the name.
> 
> In the interest of impartiality, I won't say which of these categories I
> fall into. But I'd be curious to know others' opinions on this.
> 
> Dawn Culbertson
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 
> 


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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:54:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502195355.66301.qmail-AT-
web13801.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> dance as the sets are assembling.

Last night at the Boston Centre dance, while the whiteboard
listed the dances, the red marker was on its way out, so it
was pink and totally illegible from halfway down the hall. 

The other problem is that people write in all caps.
Typographers have informed us that people read by the
patterns made by the ascenders and descenders of lower case
letters -- the classic example in graphics classes are the
outlines of dog and DOG (Guess which one we can read?). 

> People who don't like to rant will know when to sit
out...

Unfortunately, the announcement comes after the set has
formed, since we are in the habit of forming new sets as
soon as one dance ends. Several years ago when I had a
severe problem with my energy level, I had to leave
partners in the lurch on a number of occasions; I felt
badly and was a bit embarassed. Now I have a foot injury
which gives me no problem as long as I don't rant or skip
on it.

Recently, some of our callers have started saying at the
end of a dance "That was X, and the next dance will be a
rant." I want to thank them. 

Lyrl




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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:06:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502200612.39102.qmail-AT-
web13805.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- SUSAN B BOOKER wrote:
> Formation of the dance isn't a problem for me, but
certain 
> figures are, particularly....facing-out circles....

Perfectly painless if done with hands down. Who was it
decided that they should be done up? Did this person have a
sadistic streak, or was he only 24? 

This discussion is revealing how many of us are starting to
fall apart--I'm not the only one. However, it beats the
alternative.

Lyrl



 


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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 14:45:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:00:39 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Announcing Dances &c.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF860E3CD2.6EE8520B-ON85256BAD.0075C151-AT-
infinity.com>
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I have known both callers who share projected programs and callers who
don't, and I can't (frankly) fathom the latter, except as an instance of
control issues. I'm always delighted to show a dancer my program--it might
*whet* their appetite for the evening--with the caveat, "Of course, this
could all go out the window if twenty beginners arrive."
And my feeling is that if we grab partners and rush to form sets, we're
pretty well *obliged* to dance the next, whatever it may be (unless health
concerns really prevent, in which case--if, say, I were Lyrl's partner for
a rant or Barbara's for TtoP--I'd be obliged to sit out with him/her unless
he/she specifically urged me to dance with another). If people are going to
book ahead, in my experience they will do so whether they know the content
of the evening or not. When calling, I can't stop them; perhaps I shouldn't
try.

I cannot guard *all* dancers against every sort of pitfall--*and* get the
dance started. It is desirable to offer the name & a tidbit of background,
a taste of the tune, the formation, &c. I might well be able to say, "It's
a rant/waltz/jig." But if I keep going & offer more--about levels & figures
&c. I will hear complaints about over-talking and over-teaching faster than
you can say "Fenterlarick." In the course of the teaching, I will try to
say, You don't *have* to "slip" here; or, You can get through this fig-8
with a fast walking step. There are dances where you must skip (or not get
there) but not many.

As for these back-ring concerns:

'Perfectly painless if done with hands down. Who was it
decided that they should be done up? Did this person have a
sadistic streak, or was he only 24?'

As far as I'm concerned, this "hands-up" thing is *not* a back-ring: it's
the Funky Chicken.





Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



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From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Announcing dances
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|---------+------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|         |            "M.G. Mudrey, Jr."      |                                                                                    |
|         |            <mgmudrey-AT-
facstaff.wisc.|      To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                              |
|         |            edu>                    |      cc:                                                                           |
|         |            Sent by:                |      Subject:  Re: Announcing dances                                               |
|         |            owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.|                                                                                    |
|         |            STANFORD.EDU            |                                                                                    |
|         |                                    |                                                                                    |
|         |                                    |                                                                                    |
|         |            02-May-2002 12:11 PM    |                                                                                    |
|         |            Please respond to ECD   |                                                                                    |
|---------+------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|







At 11:07 AM 5/2/02 -0400, you wrote:

      2) Rather than give the title beforehand, I very often say things
      like -
      "the next dance is easier," or "faster and more active," or "more
      difficult
      so try to find a partner who knows what they are doing." As Alan
      said, it
      is helpful for children, people with physical constraints (e.g.,
      arthritis), etc... if they know that the next number will be selected
      to
      accomodate their special needs.

      Cammy

As long as you tell them the name of the dance.  If we do not let them know
that is being danced, dancers are in no position to request a
particuar/specific dance.

Easier or more difficult is not useful.  No dance is hard if you know it;
no dance is easy if you have not seen it.

It would be more instructive to say "why" you think it is harder or easier.
Is it because of the number of figure, length of the dance, complexity of
the tune, etc.



Dear M. G. Mudrey, Jr. et alia,
Based on the responses of a number of you, I see I should have been more
explicit with my examples.

2a) When I perceive that a new dancer has finished a dance feeling
frustrated, inadequate, and inclined to think that the skills required to
do these dances are beyond their capability, I say "the next dance will be
an easier one" in an attempt to dissuade them from calling it an evening
but rather to stick around and try one more. I make sure it IS one that
they can encompass although whether it is actually easier or not is
debatable. I absolutely agree that what makes a dance easy or hard has
little to do with the choreography and far more to do with how it is
taught, how the tune is played, and how much confidence the dancers have in
whether the caller can get them through it or not. The words "the next
dance will be easier" is far more informative than anything else I can
think of to the dancer in the predicament I just described. Announcing "the
next dance is Trip to Paris" would simply drive them out the door because
they hear this as confirmation that this is beyond them - they don't
recognize the name of the dance (never having heard it), a number of the
other dancers (who look like they are experienced to the newcomer, whether
they are or not) just said "Yeah!" which means THEY recognize it....
To tell such a dancer WHY I think the next will be easier is pointless
because they are not informed enough to understand that it was too many
figures or awkward timing or whatever that made them feel like they had to
struggle through the previous dance. To attempt to explain would only make
the situation worse.

2b) When I say "the next dance is more active" it is because I perceived
during the last dance that some dancers felt bored or uninspired and I
sense the urge to get off some energy. Once again, it may simply have a
livelier tune and not really be more active if I am trying to balance
keeping them happy with another who doesn't like too bouncy dances because
of arthritis, but at least I make sure it has opportunities for the
energetic dancers to embellish as in Trip to Paris without requiring lots
of vigor.

2c) When I say "the next dance is more difficult (or challenging)" once
again it is only in direct response to signals I picked up during the last
one that indicate many of the dancers felt under-challenged and are craving
something that will make them think.

I could go on with the criteria that bring out such announcements, but the
idea is that my dancers DO find these informative in that they sense that I
know how they feel at that moment and I am addressing the situation with a
choice of dance that should gratify what they felt the last one lacked.
This is not a substitute for naming the dance. At the point that I make
these announcements, I have no idea what the next dance will be because I
don't know whether the over-extended newcomer will in fact get a partner
for the next dance (I don't want to be accommodating someone who isn't even
in the dance) nor do I know how many will be lined up to dance, and I may
not have picked up the sense of the musicians for what they are itching
for.
Once the dancers are in fact lined up and ready to begin, I usually say
"this dance is Hunsdon House, it was first published in 1651, here is a
picture of the place it is named after (The Playford Ball is a good
reference to hold up for the dancers to come over and ogle the picture) and
here is how it goes"... This kind of intro is informative but avoids the
Ooos and Ahs that can cow a newcomer when the caller says "form square sets
for Hunsdon House." After the dance is over is when I am inundated with
people who say "what was the name of that dance?" This is why I feel it is
more meaningful to them after they find out that they enjoy it.

Although it is nice to have a knowledgeable dance community, ECD in
particular has a reputation for cliquishness and snootiness. To infer that
there is an "in crowd" or that the dancers ought to be able to recognize
and recall dances by their names by announcing them in such a manner can
only exacerbate this reputation. Because there is so little overlap between
my favorite repertoire and those done by the CDS dances in Arlington Mass.,
I rarely recognize a dance by name and even I (by no means a newcomer) feel
intimidated by such announcements. (Fortunately, in my experience the
dancers tend to be quite helpful and I can usually fumble through OK and
being a caller I can learn the figures pretty quickly but without faith
based on such experience, I would probably leave). In 1976 when I was too
poor to pay admission to Ted Sannella's contradances, I sat by the exit
door and collected repertoire. In this position I was had a golden
opportunity to observe numerous first-timers leaving the hall and often
overheard their discussions. It was the same kind of thing - the caller
gave the impression that they should recognize the dances by name. He would
announce the next dance is Ted's Triplet number 9 and there would be wild
applause and the beginners would leave.
This technique worked well for him at this dance (as does the announcing of
titles at the Boston CDS English) because these dances were/are well
attended by a large core of experienced dancers.  Ted was too good a caller
to use this technique at a dance where he was trying to attract newcomers.
The point is that it is a technique that caters to the experienced dancers
and makes them stand out as different from the run of the mill dancers who
only attend on occasion and who have little interest in mastering the
titles of a core repertoire.

I like to have a large co-erasable board near me when I call to write the
name of the dance that we are doing in large letters for all to see. I like
to print out calls, title, and authorship information in large black print
which I paste on shirt card type cardboard for dancers to pick up and look
at on the edge of the stage and sometimes I have the dancers take a card
and try their hand at teaching a dance. I always try to include both music
and calls on every notebook I have for musicians so that they understand
that the real prompting for the choreography should come from them (I
merely assist where the musicians have been unclear). There are countless
ways to try to impress the dancers with the depth of the field, to
familiarize them with the titles of dances and music, etc... and all of
them should be employed except where the effect might be to drive potential
participants away.

Anyway, that's my take on it, Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:03:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:
> This discussion is revealing how many of us are starting to
> fall apart--I'm not the only one. However, it beats the
> alternative.

Are you telling me what I have to look forward to? After all,
you have five years on me.  ;-})

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:09:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Join us on May Day morning to dance up the sun
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Portland area Morris Dancers will be dancing at 5:00am at
> > the Rose Test Garden in Washington Park (not at the
> > original Rose Garden in Peninsula Park a block down the
> > street from me.) ;-{(
> 
> I didn't know you danced Morris anymore. Is this your once-
> a-year event?

Actually, I never got past _thinking_ about going since I woke
up at 4:30am one day too early and decided to get a good night's
sleep Tuesday night.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:34:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:32:47 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances etc.
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000701c1f23a$0de1a080$0802ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
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Cammy indicates that new dancers may be intimidated by perceiving the
enthusiastic response of more experienced dancers to announced dances. Isn't
it equally likely that such enthusiasm would whet new dancers' curiousity
and interest in learning such enjoyable dances?

For me, it's not a matter of "hard" or "easy" dances - I've been a dancer
for over 20 years. It's not the complexity of the dance - it's the
particular figures which may be injurious. Without knowing what dances are
upcoming, I have no way of knowing what they may include.

Of course I encounter dances which are new to me...and to most other
dancers. Like everyone else, I learn them as they are taught. But the old
favorites recurr frequently on  typical dance nights, and while most of them
are wonderful dances, some of them are better for me than others. I don't
like being limited by physical concerns - but if I disregard such limits, I
will only acquire more limits, and that I refuse to do.

So it appears to be a question of teaching anonymous dances whose advance
naming might _possibly_ put-off new, easily intimidated dancers, who _might_
be unfamiliar with the names of the old favorites which are enthusiastically
welcomed by more experienced dancers, or discouraging experienced but
physically vulnerable dancers from taking the floor for fear of likely
injury. Must concern for one group or the other necessarily preclude concern
and caring for the other?

I question the idea that naming dances and others' resulting enthusiastic
welcome for such dances is somehow intimidating for new dancers. This is an
assumption made for others - whereas the chronic injuries and/or
less-than-optimal physical conditions with which many of us live  and dance
are all too real.

Thanks to everyone for some very interesting and thought-provoking posts on
this topic.

Susan Booker
Lexington, KY

...and I always thought the invariable applause for "Ted's Triplet Number
Whatever" was an in-joke! I never can keep them all straight...whereas if
they had real _names_...

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:48:07 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:47:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> --- Trev <tmonson-AT-
lycos.co.uk> wrote:
> > I must admit I like to hear the title of the dance before
> > getting up to dance. 
> 
> > I also like the band to play at least the first phrase of
> > the tune as this also jogs the mind into knowing what dance
> > may be 

I found years ago that it took me a long time to remember a
dance by name, but if you play the tune my mind generally
acknowledges familiarity. I find this is even more true of
Scandinavian dances because of the foreign names. There are
dances I've been performing for over ten years that still have
evaded being remembered by name, but play the music and it comes
back. I especially tend to remember the ones that I like, as
well as those I particularly dislike.
 
> > And, the most important to me, please repeat the name of the
> > dance AFTER dancing it - it is then that you know if you if 
> > you like it or not - and if you want to remember the name in
> > order to find out more details about it (or ignore it next
> > time?)

Repetition does help.
 
--- Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:
> As a dancer I second all three points.  I've never liked or
> quite understood the English dance rationale for not revealing
> programs or refusing to announce dances until after people are
> lined up for it (with contra dancing nowadays it doesn't
> matter, because all the dances are the same).  

When they line up immediately after the previous dance, people
tend to congregate into longways sets, which then have to be
undone into the correct formation. Then there are those who
still aren't listening when the teacher repeats for the third or
fourth time that it is a three couple set, etc.

> It's like the Whitman's chocolate sampler box
> approach - you aren't allowed to know what you've chosen until
> you bite into it, and then you're not allowed to spit it out,
> or put the rest back no matter how much you may dislike it.

Of course one of the hard and fast rules of set dancing is that
you can't drop out in the middle of the dance. Occasionally some
overwhelmed beginner will, and causes complete confusion for
most of the rest of the set. I can only remember dropping out in
the middle of a set once, and it was a medical emergency of
sorts, someone who was not a regular dancer had given my partner
a bloody nose during a Contra at a Folklife participant's party.



> ...There's that same mean-spiritedness in the, "We
> don't give out the program because then dancers would make
> their own choices about what they want to dance, and with
> whom", approach.

I don't condone booking way ahead and rarely do unless there is
a particular person that I want to dance with and am having
trouble "catching" between dances. If I know the program and
there is a dance I particularly enjoy doing with a particular
person, I will ask them for that dance. I've also been left
standing out by partners who forgot that they had agreed to do a
particular dance about three or four dances ago.

> It's legitimate for callers to not have a whole program that
> they can list in advance because they are adapting to the
> particular dancers who are attending each evening - "I'm in
> charge and the program is for me to know and you to find out"
> is not.  

It's understandable to adjust a predetermined program to better
fit the audience, but in any case is courteous to let the
dancers know well ahead of time what the program will be. I
especially appreciate callers who will announce what the next
dance will be in between teaching and dancing the current one.
That practice gives people with restrictive
injuries/disabilities plenty of time to know _not_ to line up
for a dance that they know they can't do.

> In any case, there is no excuse for not announcing the name of

> the upcoming dance immediately, even if one doesn't have an 
> entire evening programed.

There also is not really any excuse for turning your back on the
current dance so that you can get out your cards and plan what
you are going to do next. You should be a bit further ahead of
yourself than that in your planning. I'm thinking of one
particular caller who rarely knew when there was a problem on
the floor because he wasn't paying attention.


> ...I have been in other situations where there is no musical
> preview and the entire walk-through is taught without any
> music.  Thus when the dance starts you have no idea of tempo,
> or how to time sequences to the music. 

I've also run into callers who don't have relationship between
the dance and music set in their head well enough to get the
phrasing right when they start calling it. Thinking it through
while the band is playing it would also help the caller.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:54:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 17:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020503005449.40622.qmail-AT-
web20005.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com wrote:
> However, I wouldn't recommend a board that has lists of
> requests, lists of what's done and the name of what's coming
up
> all on the same one. I can never find the name of a dance at
> the Boston Wednesday nights because there is so much on the
> board and I always have to ask someone to assist me in
> discovering it.
 
At our Scandinavian dances we have a card, about 4"x15" with the
name of each dance on it. All dances that have been taught over
the years have a card, although if it hasn't been taught
recently there are often few people who know it. The cards are
put on a board several dances ahead so that everyone knows what
is coming up. Dances are graded by difficulty and also have the
flag of the country of origin.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:11:01 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:07:04 -0400
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[165.247.6.244]>
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juno.com>

>2. Callers who announce the dance's title as the dancers are starting to
>line up (i.e. they'll say something like "Make a longways set for 'Mad
>Robin.'")

I like, and opt for, a variation on this.  Yes, I announce the dance 
name (and other relevant info) with the formation.  A dance list is 
also posted in a few locations around the hall (with the caveat that 
actual mileage *might* vary), so the dancers who need to know have 
some idea of what to expect.

Wherever possible, I also have the musicians play the music for the 
upcoming dance while the dancers are assembling.  That cues the 
knowledgeable while setting the mood and pace for all of the dancers. 
(Can also function as timing check for music.)  ECD music is rich and 
varied... one of the reasons some of us are drawn to dance... why not 
make every possible use of it?

Cheers - Linda
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 18:31:30 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:20:31 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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...and I always thought the invariable applause for "Ted's Triplet Number
Whatever" was an in-joke! I never can keep them all straight...whereas if
they had real _names_...

That is precisely my point. I doubt any of the experienced dancers knew the
triplets by number. It was the "in-joke"-ness of the event that the
beginners were discussing as they left the dance.

Cammy indicates that new dancers may be intimidated by perceiving the
enthusiastic response of more experienced dancers to announced dances.
Isn't
it equally likely that such enthusiasm would whet new dancers' curiousity
and interest in learning such enjoyable dances?

In my experience it is not "equally likely" but less likely.  An
uninhibited newcomer CAN be carried along by the excitement of those in the
know, but these are few and far between compared to the newcomers who think
they need lessons before they can even try to do it.

So it appears to be a question of teaching anonymous dances whose advance
naming might _possibly_ put-off new, easily intimidated dancers, who
_might_
be unfamiliar with the names of the old favorites which are
enthusiastically
welcomed by more experienced dancers, or discouraging experienced but
physically vulnerable dancers from taking the floor for fear of likely
injury. Must concern for one group or the other necessarily preclude
concern
and caring for the other?

I am not suggesting that one CANNOT announce the name of a dance ahead of
time for the sake of those who wish to be selective. I am suggesting that
if it is done it should be in a way least likely to segregate the
experienced dancers from the less experienced.
"Form sets for XXX" implies that some in the crowd know this dance (at
least to the timid newcomer)
"The next dance is XXX, published by so-and-so on such and such a date"
gives the impression that I don't EXPECT anyone to know it - i.e. beginners
and experienced will learn this dance together.

I question the idea that naming dances and others' resulting enthusiastic
welcome for such dances is somehow intimidating for new dancers. This is an
assumption made for others - whereas the chronic injuries and/or
less-than-optimal physical conditions with which many of us live  and dance
are all too real.

This is NOT "an assumption made for others." I take the time to talk to
newcomers who are leaving any dance (mine or anyone else's), to invite them
back some other time and express how important their presence is to us, to
offer to be their partner and coach them with personal tutorial, to convey
in whatever way seems most appropriate that these dances are healthy on
many levels and enjoyable to nearly everyone. In the process, I glean their
first impressions, their disappointments, what they were hoping for, etc...
Sometimes they had the time of their life and they were just tired.
Sometimes they just needed a friendly face to invite them back. Sometimes I
steer them to another venue more suitable for what they want.

Being sensitive to those who are reluctant to speak their minds on the
dance floor in the midst of strangers is a no-brainer as far as I'm
concerned, but then again - my dance experience is mostly based in the
small community countryside dances where each individual counts and one has
to endeavor to keep them all coming back for more.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:00:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 21:25:30 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: music
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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 preview and the entire walk-through is taught without any
> music.  Thus when the dance starts you have no idea of tempo,
> or how to time sequences to the music.

I've also run into callers who don't have relationship between
the dance and music set in their head well enough to get the
phrasing right when they start calling it. Thinking it through
while the band is playing it would also help the caller.

Andy


Andy,
I have a very difficult time teaching a dance if I can't think of the tune.
When I look back at my book it is usually to get the tune so I can remember
how the dance goes rather than to get the calls.
CK

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 19:53:48 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:54:49 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
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Cammy wrote:

> He would
> announce the next dance is Ted's Triplet number 9 and there would be wild
> applause and the beginners would leave.
>

Too bad the newcomers didn't understand that this was a big joke. The
people who were applauding so wildly usually didn't have the faintest as
to what the next dance was.

Ciao,
Al


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Cammy wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>He would
announce the next dance is Ted's Triplet number 9 and there would be wild
applause and the beginners would leave.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>Too bad the newcomers didn't understand that this was a big joke.
The people who were applauding so wildly usually didn't have the faintest
as to what the next dance was.
<p>Ciao,
<br>Al
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_7S8O2id5K2etH2nExBhCnQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:05:31 PST
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:05:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <89.17729255.2a035872-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 5/3/02 1:55:47 AM, lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com writes:

<< At our Scandinavian dances...also have the
flag of the country of origin.

Andy >>

That would get a bit repetitive in ECD, don't you think?
Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:14:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:50:14 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Physical Limitations (was Announcing Dances)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020502.231028.-430199.0.franch-AT-
juno.com>
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I've changed the subject line because I think that we need to move one of
the underlying themes to the surface.  One of the reasons some people
like to know the dances in advance is because they have physical
limitations.  Knowing what the dance is going to be allows them to
participate or not, depending on the stress the dance would cause them.

Another way to consider the issue is to ask, "what modifications are
possible in the way the dance is done?"  This might require support from
the caller and also calls for consensus among the dancers.  Consider The
Fandango (or any other slipping circle dance).  When everyone's knees,
hips, and body parts are in good shape, a full bore attempt at all 12
feet off the floor at once is fun.  But one can also do a circle at a
walk and, done with style and proper tension, be in the spirit of the
dance.  I've also seen dancers (prior agreement very important here!)
step either outside or inside the circle while the remaining five dancers
slip around with zoom and verve.  Similarly, an individual might be able
to abstain from ranting and do the rest of the dance.  I'm sure the List
could provide other examples of dances in which dancers could make
adjustments that made an otherwise inaccessible dance accessible to a
member of the community.

Mike Franch
Baltimore, Md. USA
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 20:46:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:44:31 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations (was announcing dances)
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000f01c1f254$d6c9ab40$0802ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
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Cammy, it is certainly commendable that you are so sensitively concerned
about the well-being of your novice dancers. Would that all callers and
group organizers, in large communities or small, were so welcoming.

And it is interesting that correct phrasing of one's announcement of an
upcoming dance's name and other relevant information (formation, brief
history, dance composer, etc.) seems more welcoming and/or all-inclusive to
any who might consider taking the floor for such a dance. As far as I, and
perhaps other experienced dancers with mild physical wear and tear are
concerned, the point is not in _how_ such announcements are phrased - it's
whether or not they are made at all.

As previously noted, posting dances is a great help. So is identifying
dances by name _before_ dancers take the dance floor. Others have noted
feeling self-conscious, embarrassed, and distressed for one's partner and
set at having to excuse oneself belatedly from the dance floor. It's almost
equally difficult to miss a much-loved dance because it isn't announced in
time to find a partner.

So really, I have no preference whatsoever as to how such dance
announcements are made - just make them in time for me to decide what is
best for me. That's all.

Susan Booker

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:00:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:59:25 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD2273E.202ADE11-AT-
opendoor.com>
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web13601.mail.yahoo.com>



Barbara Ruth wrote:...

> Of course, if we Americans could get out of the habit of grabbing new
> partners and forming up sets the nannosecond a dance ends, and adopt
> the British custom as I understand of taking a few minutes between
> dances and only forming up once the new dance is announced, it would
> also help alleviate some of the problems of people having to commit
> to a dance without knowing whether it's one they might have problems
> with, or even just don't enjoy doing.
>

What she said!

It was very funny at Graham Christian's session at NEFFA - it was (before) the beginning of the session, the musicians were just getting settled and he hadn't even stepped up to the mic
yet and there was the whole room lined up in longways sets. When he did get up to the mic he very cheerfully said something such as 'well actually the first dance is a big circle'...

Brooke in Ashland OR

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:28:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:27:50 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about 3/2
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD22DE7.B431E06D-AT-
opendoor.com>
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SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

I like have the music playing - with less experienced dancers I'll start moving to
it to give people a sense of how to move and then invite them to do likewise. That
gives people a chance to get the feel of the music and appropriate movement for it
without the stress of fitting figures to it.

Then when I start teaching the dance I make sure to doodle or talk rhythmically as
they walk it through - 'lead out, deedle-dee, dum; & back, deedle-dee, dum' (each
bit separated by a comma being one beat) or 'lead out, deedle, and turn (with
enthusiam on the 'and turn' part to give them the idea that they do something
different than keep going for a 4th beat); lead back, deedle, to place' - argh,
this is hard to do sitting at a computer...

If I notice people not getting it I will do a quick demo of said figure with
dancers who are, while doodling.

Sometimes the figures can take longer than in duple time - there are some 3/2
dances with, for example, rights and lefts where it is actually 6 steps per hand
rather than 4 (or a faster 3). This is just as problematic as 'not having as much
time so people scurry through' because you don't want people shuffling along
because you said it takes longer. Another example - Lady William's Delight by Rich
Galloway has lines of 4 doing long leads down/up - I might do something like 'lead
down, deedle-keep, going; dum-pa, deedle-dee, dum' (I sure hope I don't sound as
silly when I do this live as it looks typed out.)

I don't like to count steps and I try for as few explanatory words as possible -
relying rather on the music and practicing/showing movement.

Brooke in Oregon

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> ECDers (especially leaders, or analytical dancers) --
>
> It's relatively easy to understand dancing in duple time - people can hear the
> beats clearly, it lines up well with setting steps, phrasing is usually pretty
> clear, and I think it's usually a good idea to start off evenings, or to start
> off new dancers, with duple time dances - jigs, reels, etc.  It's also fairly
> intuitive to dance in waltz time; the most correction needed for how new
> dancers do it is to persuade them to put one foot _in front_ of the other and
> to keep fairly flat.  A contra dancer who's never done English can deal with
> all of that.
>
> 3/2 time is different.  Phrasing is often different - something that shows up
> fairly often is "neighbors lead out for one bar, turn and lead back in for one
> bar", which is often a surprise.  Even in a dance-walk, you may step
> differently for triple time.  (Some of the best dancers still take two steps
> for most measures and throw in an occasional three-step to "catch up".)  It's
> just not obvious.  I've internalized this well enough, but I haven't
> articulated it with ideal clarity.  Now I sometimes want to use 3/2 tunes at
> Regency dancing, where there are a lot of new dancers, and I need to explain it
> to them in a clear and non-misleading way.
>
> (Most recently I tried to convey the idea of shorter phrases by suggesting that
> you may not have as much time as you expect to do things.  This, of course,
> resulted in excessive scurrying without particular reference to the music.
> Oops.)
>
> One very useful thing I once saw was Bruce Hamilton pointing out exactly where
> the first footfall happens in "Sally in Our Alley".  Do any of you have other
> things to say that seem to promote understanding how to dance either
> triple-time dances in general or specific 3/2 dances in particular; have you
> heard somebody say something that made you understand it?
>
> (I don't mean to limit the universe of explanation to the verbal.  If you do
> demos or have seen demos that really helped, and can write them up, that
> would be lovely too.)
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> -- Alan
>
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
> ===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 07:48:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:48:52 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: announcing dances
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F78wsXZZTHfyQg0000ada3-AT-
hotmail.com>
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I speak as someone who has no ambition ever to be an ECD caller/ teacher/ 
whatever, and if he had such ambition, no dance group or series in its 
collective right mind would ever allow me to fulfill said ambitions.

I'd just as soon not know what the forthcoming dance is. That way everything 
is an interesting surprise. And to be honest, I expect to be fully and 
entirely occupied with chattering away with my partner or neighbors and 
generally genially socializing, while the caller is trying to shuffle 
through his/ her notes, or muttering the name of the dance into the mike.

It can be interesting to learn what the hell the dance was afterwards, 
however. In fact, that's what I usually consult the chart for. (When there 
is a chart or list of dances posted.) On the occasions when I think a new 
dance is worth remembering.

yrs
Steve C.

Steve Corrsin
5166 Patrick Rd.
West Bloomfield MI 48322
tel 248-661-6283
fax 248-661-6288


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 23:31:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 21:36:08 -0700
From: Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020503183807.00a4a4c0-AT-
mail.oz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 12:53 PM 5/2/02 -0700, Lyrl wrote

> > All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> > some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> > dance as the sets are assembling.

All it takes is some whiteboard markers to get 20% of our musicians and 
dancers scurrying for their inhalers! Or for the exit door.

(Overheard at a dance by a band-member,   "How can I play the recorder if I 
can't breathe?")

I love to have the program posted, but solvent-based products such as 
whiteboard markers and permanent marking pens cause serious health problems 
for me and many others with asthma or MCS.

For a healthier environment in which all will be able to breathe 
comfortably,  use butcher paper and either crayons or water-based marking 
pens.

Blackboard and chalk are second best (asthmatics have trouble with chalk 
dust) but greatly preferable to whiteboard marking pens or permanent 
markers which cause cardiac and neurological problems as well as breathing 
difficulty.

Victoria Bestock,
         consultant with the Americal Lung Association's Master 
Home     Environmentalist program and supporter of dancing in clean air.




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 02:48:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:46:20 +1000
From: Earthly Delights music & dance <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: New Website
To: aus-worldfolk-AT-
edfac.unimelb.edu.au, lochac <lochac-AT-
sca.org.au>, ECD <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <021f01c1f5ac$0cba4ac0$75ecfea9-AT-
webone.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

You are invited to check out our new web-site at
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au. There's lots of band,
instrument and event info, audio samples, pictures
(including from last month's English Country Dance!).
There's also dance tips, costume links, instructions for
over 100 dances and a big 500-year dance history. We plan to
develop it into a web resource. Do let us know what you
think!

Warmest Regards,
Aylwen Garden
PS.The links page is still under construction  - please send
us your links.

Earthly Delights - Music and Dance
87 Schlich Street
Yarralumla ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA
Ph +61 +2 +62811098
Website: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au
Dances & Gigs:
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/upcoming.htm
Audio Samples: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/audio.htm

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 05:34:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 05:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507123440.70319.qmail-AT-
web13601.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Victoria,
Thanks for keeping us informed about things like this.  I know my
consciousness has been raised concerning pefumed or scented personal
products, but it wouldn't have occured to me to worry about something
like magic markers.
Barbara


--- Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:
> At 12:53 PM 5/2/02 -0700, Lyrl wrote
> 
> > > All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> > > some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> > > dance as the sets are assembling.
> 
> All it takes is some whiteboard markers to get 20% of our musicians
> and 
> dancers scurrying for their inhalers! Or for the exit door.
> 
> (Overheard at a dance by a band-member,   "How can I play the
> recorder if I 
> can't breathe?")
> 
> I love to have the program posted, but solvent-based products such
> as 
> whiteboard markers and permanent marking pens cause serious health
> problems 
> for me and many others with asthma or MCS.
> 
> For a healthier environment in which all will be able to breathe 
> comfortably,  use butcher paper and either crayons or water-based
> marking 
> pens.
> 
> Blackboard and chalk are second best (asthmatics have trouble with
> chalk 
> dust) but greatly preferable to whiteboard marking pens or
> permanent 
> markers which cause cardiac and neurological problems as well as
> breathing 
> difficulty.
> 
> Victoria Bestock,
>          consultant with the Americal Lung Association's Master 
> Home     Environmentalist program and supporter of dancing in clean
> air.
> 
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:08:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:08:14 -0700
From: Howard Carlberg <nsuch-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: people vs places
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CD809F2.7E8176A6-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
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References: <E170sTT-0003m2-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>

4/25/02 Susan wrote:
> 
> Someone named "Emily L. Ferguson" wrote:
> >I, too, am aware that there are many printed dance manuals from quite
> >a few centuries now.  And it's interesting, indeed, that the first
> >woman is the one who initiates corner activities in many 19th c.
> >longways dance, but, of course, there's nothing inherent in that
> >situation which would confirm that the 1st woman and the 2nd man are,
> >therefore, first corners.
> 
> This is a bit too obscure for me.  What is the definition of "first
> corners" if not the corners which move first?  

In my experience, the definition of first corners is the
positions of man 1 and woman 2 in a duple minor set, (often
synonymous with first diagonals, but not always).  It is
perfectly fine and common to call "second corners set and
cross, then first corners set and cross" for example.  It is
not who moves first, it has a separate unique definition.
But as Susan already pointed out, the terms of corners did
not exist in 19th century notation so there is nothing to
argue about there.

Howard
-- 
Howard & Shirley Carlberg
878 Pauline Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 528-2310    - phone in house
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:30:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:30:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507173012.55817.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> At 12:53 PM 5/2/02 -0700, Lyrl wrote
> > > All it takes is a piece of black/white board and chalk or
> > > some whiteboard markers.... write in the name of the
> > > dance as the sets are assembling.
> 

--- Paul / Victoria Bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:
> All it takes is some whiteboard markers to get 20% of our
> musicians and dancers scurrying for their inhalers! Or for the
> exit door.
> 
> (Overheard at a dance by a band-member,   "How can I play the
> recorder if I can't breathe?")
> 
> I love to have the program posted, but solvent-based products
> such as whiteboard markers and permanent marking pens cause
> serious health problems for me and many others with asthma or
> MCS.
> 
> For a healthier environment in which all will be able to
> breathe comfortably,  use butcher paper and either crayons or
> water-based marking pens.
> 
> Blackboard and chalk are second best (asthmatics have trouble
> with chalk dust) but greatly preferable to whiteboard marking
> pens or permanent markers which cause cardiac and neurological
> problems as well as breathing difficulty.

My problems with solvents have been primarily skin contact, but
the more fragrance-free my life is, the more sensitive I am to
airborn chemicals. Some perfumes cause me repiratory distress,
but nowhere near as severely as Vicki experiences. I can have
skin problems from other chemicals in hand creams and soaps that
aren't a problem for people with airborne solvent sensitivities.

...But the chalk dust might be more of a problem for me than the
perfumes. My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that we
swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used to
dance at in West Hartford. 

Don't even _think_ of coming near me with that bale of hay...
Andy

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:46:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:46:33 -0700
From: Howard Carlberg <nsuch-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:Dance sources / three-twos
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CD812E4.9E41DB4C-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <200204301517.QAA04540-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>

Michael Barraclough wrote:

> Its not a missing figure - the curent figure (dip-and-dive) has been substituted for the original figure (waves of the ocean/sea).  

I didn't know that was a modern substitution, I thought it
was just a variation. I have danced La Russe a number of
times in various places (US), and only once, (last Sunday)
seen dip-and-dive.

Howard
-- 
Howard & Shirley Carlberg
878 Pauline Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 528-2310    - phone in house
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:16:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about 3/2
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507181615.29563.qmail-AT-
web20003.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
wrote:
> If I notice people not getting it I will do a quick demo of
> said figure with dancers who are, while doodling.

The important thing here is doing the demo with dancers who
_are_ getting it. I have often seen callers, even local ones who
know the crowd, randomly pick a foursome to use for a demo, and
at least one person in the group is a beginner who is completely
clueless!!! If you must, pick individuals from different sets
who know the figure. they can find their way back...
 
> (I sure hope I don't sound as silly when I do this live as it
> looks typed out.)

Probably, but just stay on pitch so it sounds good...  ;-})

> I don't like to count steps and I try for as few explanatory
> words as possible - relying rather on the music and
> practicing/showing movement.

I learned a long time ago that the music really does tell you
what to do. My Scandinavian performing group uses recorded music
and I have learned to rely on variations in the music to cue me
for the next figure. I recently realized that I have been
getting irritated with my partner for audibly counting out the
steps on one of the new dances we are learning. In this
particular dance there are long clockwise and counterclockwise
closed (shoulder-waist hold) turns with your partner after each
"verse" and on some the turn is eight or twelve clockwise and
sixteen counterclockwise. I'm looking for the musical cues and
my partner's counting is distracting me from finding them and
setting them in my head.

Last night was the Monday night Scandi groups annual "Birthday
Ball" celebrating the founding of the group, and we had a
wonderful new band consisting of Sally White, who has played for
many years for the dances in Salem, Ellen Hansen, who plays for
ECD and Contra with various people, piano repairman Denis
Wilkinson, making his public debut on fiddle as well as playing
his accordion and clarinet (not all at the same time), and a
bass player, whose name escapes me (aren't they alwyas the
forgotten ones?). The music was wonderful. For some dances they
played different tunes than those we usually use and I noticed
that many people had difficulty remembering how the dance goes
without those musical cues that they usually have. 

Then there's the problem I had with using the tune associated
with The Chestnut for All Saints Day a couple years ago at the
Portland Ball; the music was telling me to do something
completely different.

Andy

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:24:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507182447.17972.qmail-AT-
web20006.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
wrote:
> It was very funny at Graham Christian's session at NEFFA - it
> was (before) the beginning of the session, the musicians were
> just getting settled and he hadn't even stepped up to the mic
> yet and there was the whole room lined up in longways sets.
> When he did get up to the mic he very cheerfully said
> something such as 'well actually the first dance is a big
> circle'...

I noticed many years ago that English dancers tend to form
longways sets no matter what the next dance is going to be
(sometimes even if they know in advance). Sometimes it is
difficult to get them to change the formation. I've also noticed
that when dancers form a circle some of them insist upon taking
hands around the large circle, even if the dance starts with
couples facing LOD or couple facing couple in subsets.

Qndy

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:34:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:34:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507183400.70640.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


--- CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/3/02 1:55:47 AM, lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com
> writes:
> 
> << At our Scandinavian dances...also have the
> flag of the country of origin.
> 
> Andy >>
> 
> That would get a bit repetitive in ECD, don't you think?
> Carl Friedman

True...
But not all ECD comes from England.  ;-})
Having the dances posted ahead allows one to see that there is a
particular dance that you like doing with a certain person and
affords the opportunity to ask them in advance to save that
dance. On the other hand, sometimes potluck leads to some
wonderful surprises.

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:23:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 15:20:54 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Talking about demos
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF43D3F62B.B02EF729-ON85256BB2.006984AD-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


Andy's note -
--- Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
wrote:
> If I notice people not getting it I will do a quick demo of
> said figure with dancers who are, while doodling.

The important thing here is doing the demo with dancers who
_are_ getting it. I have often seen callers, even local ones who
know the crowd, randomly pick a foursome to use for a demo, and
at least one person in the group is a beginner who is completely
clueless!!! If you must, pick individuals from different sets
who know the figure. they can find their way back...

Another viewpoint on demos:
Occasionally, I purposely pick someone who hasn't a clue for the demo.
Although this is risky, my intent is to teach the dance to the other person
in front of the rest of the dancers. Seeing how an experienced dancer does
something may be less informative than observing the instruction of someone
who is at the novice level. I've used this technique when teaching couples
dances.
May day morn, while teaching Haste to the Wedding to a bunch of novices in
Cambridge, I chose to teach the whole dance to one half of the circle then
the other. In that large outdoor venue, nobody could hear well (fortunately
the dance is so easy you don't have to hear so it went OK). However, it
occurred to me later that I could have saved time if I had taken a 4some to
the middle where all could see and had everyone imitate while I quietly
taught the 4-some.
Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:28:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:28:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Announcing dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507192803.27171.qmail-AT-
web20007.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> It's a bit like waiting for a bus, which changes or reveals
> its true number only when it has arrived at the stop or after
> you have got on! We all like to go to the right place, but not
> necessarily the same place. 

I got on the bus downtown the other day headed for school and
just before the bus pulled away a young man ran up and got on.
He sat near me and pulled out his school books and started
writing intently. About ten minutes into the ride, he turned and
asked me if this was the bus to Sylvania (the college campus)
and I assured him that it was. He said he'd run for the bus and
jumped on without even confirming that it was the right one.

> Regards Alan Corkett (a mere musician!)

Alan, rest assured that there is no such thing as a "mere"
musician. Those of us who dance value you highly.

Andy
> 


__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 13:59:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:59:21 -0600
From: Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Dance sources / three-twos
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05010402b8fde654e897-AT-
[155.99.169.34]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <200204301517.QAA04540-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk> <3CD812E4.9E41DB4C-AT-
ix.netcom.com>

>Michael Barraclough wrote:
>
>>  Its not a missing figure - the curent figure (dip-and-dive) has 
>>been substituted for the original figure (waves of the ocean/sea). 
>
>I didn't know that was a modern substitution, I thought it
>was just a variation. I have danced La Russe a number of
>times in various places (US), and only once, (last Sunday)
>seen dip-and-dive.


How do you do  waves of the ocean?  We did La Russe last Thursday, 
with dip-and-dive.  I'm pretty sure I got that version from the 
community dance manual.

Emma
-- 
-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:32:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:29:14 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Dance sources / three-twos
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000501c1f60e$3ce1f1a0$69267ad5-AT-
michael>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Emma Rushton wrote
How do you do  waves of the ocean?  We did La Russe last Thursday, 
with dip-and-dive.  I'm pretty sure I got that version from the 
community dance manual.

As I recollect it has exactly the same track as doing a dip-and dive
except that hands are not joined.  

The instruction in the Community Dance Manual (originally published
1949) is for the leading couple to cross over with the opposite couple
(passing inside), and then to change with partner.  Then cross back in
the same way with the opposite couple passing inside.

This is described as " as danced in the Border villages; collected by
Peter Kennedy) and accords with the original instruction as contained in
C19 ballroom guides.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk





Emma
-- 
-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu

---
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:37:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:31:39 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Standard repertoire
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200205071934_MC3-FD21-D9C6-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Hi all -
I haven't read the accumulated-during-my-Germany-tour 800 emails yet, so
I'm not aware what has been discussed on this subject before. But when I
started dancing ECD in the USA as of 1960, the choice of ANY repertoire was
limited to what was available on recordings, almost exclusively imports
from the UK. Noble exceptions were Pinewoods and the centers in Boston and
New York. If one was fortunate enough to get hold of Sharp's piano scores
or those interesting "Old English Dance" renditions in recorder tutorial
booklets (and recognised the tune as belonging to xyz dance), only then was
the selection larger. With the advent of the plethora of books of old and
new tunes in addition to the blue bible for musicians and the electronic
distribution of ever more stuff the notion of a 'standard' repertoire is
rather elusive.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 18:34:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 21:35:51 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CD880F7.9DF25CAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)"
References: <20020507173012.55817.qmail-AT-
web20002.mail.yahoo.com>


--Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Andy,
    That fine dust is probably from an application of liquid wax. The
junk scuffs up awfully easily and is a powerful irritant to many,
including yours truly.
    To and insult to injury, some years ago my group in Pittsburgh lost
the use of a fine dance space because we tracked gray dust from a heavy
application of the stuff on the hall runners on our way out when we
left.

Your brother in misery,
Al

Andy Petersen wrote (in part):

> My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
> to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that we
> swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used to
> dance at in West Hartford.
>
--
Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
102 Loring Avenue
Pelham, NY 10803

Tel. 914 738-7678
Fax: 718 405-8037


--Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Andy,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That fine dust is probably from an application of
liquid wax. The junk scuffs up awfully easily and is a powerful irritant
to many, including yours truly.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To and insult to injury, some years ago my group
in Pittsburgh lost the use of a fine dance space because we tracked gray
dust from a heavy application of the stuff on the hall runners on our way
out when we left.
<p>Your brother in misery,
<br>Al
<p>Andy Petersen wrote (in part):
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that we
swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used to
dance at in West Hartford.</pre>
</blockquote>

<p>--
<br>Albert Blank &amp; Nancy DeVore
<br>102 Loring Avenue
<br>Pelham, NY 10803
<p>Tel. 914 738-7678
<br>Fax: 718 405-8037
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_M5Aqfxzat339pIhU+fjViQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:33:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:33:45 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: cloverleaf turn single
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000401c1f638$c6ddf140$f5c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the 20th century,
or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th centuries anytime four people
turned single?

Thanks.

Pat
Charlottesville, VA

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 19:33:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:33:46 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Sheepskin Hey
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000501c1f638$c78c0b90$f5c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The SCD list is discussing this and someone asked about the origin of the
term.  All I know is what I've read in _The Playford Ball_ (Keller and
Shimer) in the notes to Picking Up Sticks:

"Although it is quite different from the hey described in 'The Three
Sheepskins' (DM I: 1698-1728), the movement in the last figure...has become
known as the 'sheepskin hey.'"

Anyone have any additional information?

Pat
Charlottesville, VA


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 20:45:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:45:57 +1000
From: Earthly Delights music & dance <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: Re: Sheepskin Hey
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <006101c1f642$dd1e27e0$75ecfea9-AT-
webone.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <000501c1f638$c78c0b90$f5c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>

Have a look at John Garden's dance terms page -
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/terms.htm .
Warmest Regards,
Aylwen Garden

Earthly Delights - Music and Dance
87 Schlich Street
Yarralumla ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA
Ph +61 +2 +62811098
Website: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au
Dances & Gigs:
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/upcoming.htm
Audio Samples: http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/audio.htm

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:38:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 05:36:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ecd-digest-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507.223747.11016.75969-AT-
webmail2.wlv.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Good grief! I've been without a computer since last Wed. due to major software problems (in fact, I'm still without it--I'm writing this on someone else's computer) and had no idea my simple query would get so many responses! But it's great to get so much input and a lot of thought-provoking points have been raised here, in my opinion.

I figure, in the interest of fairness, I might as well come out of the closet (as it were) & tell which category of caller I fall into: the 2nd. I feel it's important to announce a dance before it's done (i.e. "Make [formation] for [name of dance]"). I also announce the name of the dance at the end, and if I think there's something important the dancers need to know in advance (i.e. the dance is a little tricky if you don't already know it, etc.). I also prepare a program in advance, with a backup list of about 5 dances that can be substituted for them if necessary.

I think these things are important because I think it's a form of consideration and respect for the dancers. As pointed out, many dancers have injuries or other physical problems that make various types of dances difficult. And I've also found from experience that almost everyone has at least one dance they really don't like and would just as soon avoid. Keeping a program or the name of a dance secret, to me, only reinforces the unfortunate perception some people have of ECD as being snobbish and cliqueish and could well be perceived as a type of power play. I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in advance and have never been able to think of one. Even if the caller doesn't have a prepared program, it still wouldn't preclude them from announcing the name of the dance before actually beginning to teach it.

Special note to Barbara Ruth: Re your comment on chocolates: Yeah, I've never understood why makers of chocolate assortments don't tell you what's inside--what if you're allergic to nuts or cocoanut and you get one with that inside? And I've never understood why anyone would put some disgusting jelly inside a perfectly good chocolate exterior. But the Whitman's Sampler is one of the few chocolate assortments that DOES tell you what's inside (there's a little diagram on the inside lid). And there is a general way to tell what's inside a chocolate--if it's round, it's probably a cream; if square, chewy (caramel, nougat, etc.); if oblong, crunchy. In fact, some chocolate makers actually put a design on the top that tells you what's inside (an O for orange, V for vanilla)--unfortunately, in my experience, they all seem to look alike!




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:38:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 05:36:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: dcculb-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ecd-digest-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020507.223747.11016.75969-AT-
webmail2.wlv.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Good grief! I've been without a computer since last Wed. due to major software problems (in fact, I'm still without it--I'm writing this on someone else's computer) and had no idea my simple query would get so many responses! But it's great to get so much input and a lot of thought-provoking points have been raised here, in my opinion.

I figure, in the interest of fairness, I might as well come out of the closet (as it were) & tell which category of caller I fall into: the 2nd. I feel it's important to announce a dance before it's done (i.e. "Make [formation] for [name of dance]"). I also announce the name of the dance at the end, and if I think there's something important the dancers need to know in advance (i.e. the dance is a little tricky if you don't already know it, etc.). I also prepare a program in advance, with a backup list of about 5 dances that can be substituted for them if necessary.

I think these things are important because I think it's a form of consideration and respect for the dancers. As pointed out, many dancers have injuries or other physical problems that make various types of dances difficult. And I've also found from experience that almost everyone has at least one dance they really don't like and would just as soon avoid. Keeping a program or the name of a dance secret, to me, only reinforces the unfortunate perception some people have of ECD as being snobbish and cliqueish and could well be perceived as a type of power play. I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in advance and have never been able to think of one. Even if the caller doesn't have a prepared program, it still wouldn't preclude them from announcing the name of the dance before actually beginning to teach it.

Special note to Barbara Ruth: Re your comment on chocolates: Yeah, I've never understood why makers of chocolate assortments don't tell you what's inside--what if you're allergic to nuts or cocoanut and you get one with that inside? And I've never understood why anyone would put some disgusting jelly inside a perfectly good chocolate exterior. But the Whitman's Sampler is one of the few chocolate assortments that DOES tell you what's inside (there's a little diagram on the inside lid). And there is a general way to tell what's inside a chocolate--if it's round, it's probably a cream; if square, chewy (caramel, nougat, etc.); if oblong, crunchy. In fact, some chocolate makers actually put a design on the top that tells you what's inside (an O for orange, V for vanilla)--unfortunately, in my experience, they all seem to look alike!




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:40:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020508074022.90652.qmail-AT-
web20005.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the
> 20th century, or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th
> centuries anytime four people turned single?

The way I learned was that all turn singles are to the right
unless specified in the dance instructions. That said, I find
that there are times where a turn to the left helps the flow of
the dance. The cloverleaf turn is an interpretation/invention of
the last thirty years.

Andy

__________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:54:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 00:54:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: no whiteboards please
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020508075415.97294.qmail-AT-
web20010.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Al,

Ron also speculated as to whether we were actually getting
particles of the floor tiles themselves, which on some of the
older floors could have asbestos in them. Investigations have
found that any industry that creates extremely fine dust
particulates can have problems with "brown lung", which I
understand was first identified among workers in the cotton
mills. Fiberglass, which has replaced asbestos in some
insulating applications, has been found to be just as dangerous
to the lungs of people who are constantly exposed to it. My
father's Uncle Dave suffered from emphysema, primarily as a
result of many years of working a dusty wheat farm west of
Spokane. The last few years he was on the farm he had other
people working the place and about the only thing he did was
check for eggs in the chicken coop.

Andy

--- Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com> wrote:
>     That fine dust is probably from an application of liquid
> wax. The junk scuffs up awfully easily and is a powerful
> irritant to many, including yours truly.
>     To and insult to injury, some years ago my group in
> Pittsburgh lost the use of a fine dance space because we
> tracked gray dust from a heavy application of the stuff on the
> hall runners on our way out when we left.
> 
> Your brother in misery,
> Al
> 
> Andy Petersen wrote (in part):
> > My old housemate, Ron, who has asthma problems, used
> > to speculate on the unhealthy content of the fine dust that
> > we swept up off of the linoleum floor in the church we used
> > to dance at in West Hartford.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 03:47:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 11:47:36 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200205081047.LAA15054-AT-
galahad.tgis.co.uk>
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The "rule" that "all turn singles are to the right unless specified in the dance instructions" is entirely spurious and is a twentieth century invention.  The only safe guidance is to do what seems right (this applies to setting as well) based on direction of movement, where weight is etc.

The term cloverleaf turn single may be modern, but the choreographgic unit is not.  It can be found in La Charpentier which was written my Monsieur Charpentier and published in Recueil De Nouvelles Contredances by Monsiuer Dezais, Paris, 1712.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab/tgis.co.uk


On Wednesday, May 08, 2002 at 12:40:22 AM, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:

> --- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the
> > 20th century, or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th
> > centuries anytime four people turned single?
> 
> The way I learned was that all turn singles are to the right
> unless specified in the dance instructions. That said, I find
> that there are times where a turn to the left helps the flow of
> the dance. The cloverleaf turn is an interpretation/invention of
> the last thirty years.
> 
> Andy
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> 
> 


--

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 06:31:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:31:42 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Sheepskin Hey
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000201c1f694$b0b0e420$b7c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
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Thanks, Aylwen, but the definition doesn't mention the *origin* of the term.
Did I overlook something?

Pat

Aylwen offered:

Have a look at John Garden's dance terms page -
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/terms.htm .

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 06:31:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:31:43 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000301c1f694$b16232c0$b7c4c943-AT-
g9tfz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael wrote:

"The term cloverleaf turn single may be modern, but the choreographgic unit
is not.  It can be found in La Charpentier which was written my Monsieur
Charpentier and published in Recueil De Nouvelles Contredances by Monsiuer
Dezais, Paris, 1712."

Would this be a publication wherein the dances were diagrammed?

What about the dance instruction books without diagrams, the Playfords,
Walshes, etc?  Written instructions are brief, and without accompanying
diagrams.  What I was wondering was whether treatises of the time addressed
this, with something like:

Being a Complete Explanation of the Turn Single and Its Variations
.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect of
having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....

Thusly, folks under a dancing master's instruction, or at home with Treatise
in hand, would know to do this, without its being specified each time in a
dance.  I know that many on this list are familiar with Wilson's works; I
thought he, or writers in earlier times, might have set out a rule or
guidance or this.

Pat

================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:46:10 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFBF57DAA2.84196AA6-ON85256BB3.004DB179-AT-
biogen.com>
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Pat,
I base my interpretation of the Playford dances on the tune and the tastes
of the people of the period rather than specific written accounts which
(when available) tend to be anecdotal and capture the opinion of the writer
rather than the common practice. Based on my sense of the tastes of the
Playford era, the cloverleaf TS would have been the preferred figure when
the instructions call for turn single. It is my opinion that only if the
cloverleaf was incompatible with the choreography that preceded and
followed the turn, would the dancers deviate from the pleasure they found
in symmetrical choreography and extended eye-contact.

Cammy


                                                                                                                                   
                      Patricia Ruggiero                                                                                            
                      <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>        To:       English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  cloverleaf turn single                                            
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      07-May-2002 10:33 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




Does anyone know if this is a choreographic invention of the 20th century,
or did folks do this in the 17th and 18th centuries anytime four people
turned single?

Thanks.

Pat
Charlottesville, VA





================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 07:52:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:47:27 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
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Hi all,
I do agree that it is important to announce a dance prior to doing it. Most
dancers I know have lots of different 'hooks' onto which they hang their
dance knowledge: the name, the tune, a signature figure, the formation...
And then there are those decisions to either make absolutely sure to do or
not to do a specific dance. The more of these 'hooks' the leader provides,
the more successful the dancers can be.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:19:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:18:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: Martha Davey <marthacd-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: 
Message-ID: <20020508.131906.2363.1256-AT-
wm15.nyc.untd.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 Hello, All-
     I am 1200 miles away from home and my dance books at the moment
so I can't look at them, but doesn't an older dance, "Well Hall" have cloverleaf turn singles or is that a modern interpretation?




Martha
Martha Davey 
temporary phone 941 792 9323  

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:28:23 PST
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:23:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.3.07.10205081349.A2272-9100000-AT-
acme>
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On Wed, 8 May 2002, Martha Davey wrote:

>      I am 1200 miles away from home and my dance books at the moment
 so I can't look at them, but doesn't an older dance, "Well Hall" have
cloverleaf turn singles or is that a modern interpretation? 


"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."

	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
unreasonable.


						--Ian


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:08:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:05:19 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: people vs places
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200205081608_MC3-FD4D-2236-AT-
compuserve.com>
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So, "Susan Generalist" -
whom or what are you afraid of that lets you remain so secretive about your
identity? The nosy strangers perhaps on whom you lavish your innuendo,
right along with condescention?

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny, who has encouraged you before to stand up -
figuratively speaking - and be counted.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:11:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:05:18 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: POTLUCK?
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
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Message-ID: <200205081608_MC3-FD4D-2235-AT-
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Hi Aylwen -
potlucks I've been to where NO prior hints were given have resulted in
  six different tuna casseroles at the same event
  delicious soups - and no containers for the 'users'
  homemade breads - and no knives to cut them with
  and similar quasi-disasters.
Potlucks WITH suggestions usually work better!
And those suggestions include
  everyone whose phone number ends with digit ' ' is encouraged to
     bring .... and the suggestions then specify salad or main dish or
     meat or cooked veggie or bread or dessert.
Cutlery, containers and napkins are usually provided by the organizer,
  same as drinks.
Whoever brings food also provides the necessary utensils for
preparation/serving.
Labels in front of the various concoctions help those with allergies. And
not everyone is willing to share recipes...
The option of biscuits, crackers or fruit should make it easier for the
non-cooks to make worthwhile contributions (or the commitment to provide
paper plates, plastic cutlery, or help with cleaning up).
Have fun - and don't let too many chips, pretzels etc. appear unless you
have gallons of drink!

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny

      
================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:52:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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In a message dated 5/8/02 1:39:16 AM, dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:

<< I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in 
advance and have never been able to think of one.  >>

During this discussion it occurred to me that there is ONE, though it's 
doubtful that it would outweigh the reasoned & reasonable opinions on the 
other side (which I share.) I was once at a weekly dance somewhere where the 
leader seemed to be *purposely* witholding the information (name of dance, 
letting us hear a few bars of the tune, etc.) The walk-thru was well under 
way before it suddenly became clear & many of said "Oh it's (name-of-dance), 
why didn't s/he SAY so? (Obviously it took a while because the usual clues 
were absent.) Well, if s/he had, the experienced dancers in the crowd (at 
least in the opinion of the caller) would have figured they knew it (it was 
actually a pretty well-known dance) & actually cease to LISTEN to the 
directions. I think this caller wanted -- in that case -- to have even the 
more jaded dancers approach the dance with fresh minds & possibly leave off 
some sloppy habits they may have picked up along the way. Well, I'm not sure, 
but it might have worked. In that case.

Judy-devil's advocate-Grunberg
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:12:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Re:Announcing dances (& confession)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0205081702020.21651-100000-AT-
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On Wed, 8 May 2002 JBGrun-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/8/02 1:39:16 AM, dcculb-AT-
juno.com writes:
>
> << I've tried to think of a rationale for not giving the name of a dance in
> advance and have never been able to think of one.  >>
>
> ...if s/he had, the experienced dancers in the crowd (at least in the
> opinion of the caller) would have figured they knew it (it was actually
> a pretty well-known dance) & actually cease to LISTEN to the directions.
> I think this caller wanted -- in that case -- to have even the more
> jaded dancers approach the dance with fresh minds & possibly leave off
> some sloppy habits they may have picked up along the way...

a related reason would be to try to prevent dancers who know the dance
from competing (vocally) with the caller during the teaching.  i've seen
it happen more than once that experienced dancers (usually dancers who are
also callers, but not the designated callers) try to teach
less-experienced partners or minor sets the dance *while* the caller is
speaking to the whole group.

(another thing i've noticed at several recent events is dancers on the
floor whistling or doodling the tune while the caller is doing the same
over the mic.  when i can hear both, and they're out of sync, i find it
most distracting.)

susie lorand
ecd musician (not caller) in princeton, nj, usa

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:44:50 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 00:41:51 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000001c1f6e9$ee098a20$a5877ad5-AT-
michael>
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Patricia Ruggiero wrote

Would this (Recueil De Nouvelles Contredances by Monsiuer
Dezais, Paris, 1712) be a publication wherein the dances were
diagrammed?

What about the dance instruction books without diagrams, the Playfords,
Walshes, etc?  Written instructions are brief, and without accompanying
diagrams.  What I was wondering was whether treatises of the time
addressed
this, with something like:

....

Yes, the book contains orseographic rather than text instructions.   As
for instructions in the form you are describing, no such luck.

We have the Lorin mss (Paris, 1685, 1688), Feuilet (Paris, 1706) and
Dezais (Paris, 1712) which provide orseographic instructions.  The
Playfords, Walshes etc only describe Doubles, singles, set & Turn
single, the Figure half round and the Whole Figure.  Mathew Welch
provides further orseographic material (1757?) and then we are into the
Wilsons etc (19 century) which do describe more figures.

Perhaps someone who is more familiar with books providing instructions
that have been found in America could add further examples.

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:02:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 19:59:53 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <E175bLd-0001pM-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>
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Michael Barraclough writes:
>Perhaps someone who is more familiar with books providing instructions 
>that have been found in America could add further examples. 

Wandering briefly through:  Saltator's earlier manual (Boston, 1802)
gives step-sequences for some moves, which if you deciper properly
give clues as to direction, but he doesn't have diagrams.

One thing I note with Wilson and other 19thc manuals is that the
"turn single" figure pretty much vanishes.  It not only isn't
in the diagrams, it isn't in the dances of the period.  I' mot
sure how early it started dropping out  (over to you, Rich,
for 18thc?)  but by the Regency era it seems to be out
of fashion.

Susan
================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:48:27 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: susan-AT-
generalist.org
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Compound response to lotsa different folks; apologies if I muff up
the attributions somewhere.

Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk> writes:
>The "rule" that "all turn singles are to the right unless specified in
>the dance instructions" is entirely spurious and is a twentieth
>century invention.  The only safe guidance is to do what seems right
>(this applies to setting as well) based on direction of movement,
>where weight is etc.

I think that is a going a little far.  My sense is that the ideal
of symmetry shifted in the 17th century.  Earlier material has a
very definite bias, and it is *against* mirror-symmetry like
everyone turning away from each other.  It doesn't default to
turning right, either, it defaults to left, and gives some helpful
details on the "set and turn" figure one sees in Playford:

"2 singles syde and a d. rounde on your lefte hande"
"sett and turne with the Left Legg"
"set and turne with the left legg"
"two singles sydes the first with the left legg, the second with
the right"

These are quotes from mid to late 17th-century English manuscripts.
They aren't describing country dances, but I would find it a little
bizarre if dance styles from the same time and place using such a
similarly titled figure were done opposite ways.

Likewise, in the 16th and early 17th century Italian manuscripts, there
is a distinct bias.  99% of the time, when one turns single (and
they did it a lot), it is to the left.  And everyone turns to their
own left - it's not meant to be mirror symmetry.

The period ideal of symmetry was *different* from ours.  If you
had two people side by side, both of them turning left was considered
symmetrical.  Ditto facing.

This drives me nuts when I am doing the early Playford stuff in a
MECD context; all my experience tells me to go left when setting or
turning single, when everyone else is going right.  It's the little
things that trip me up (not usually literally).

Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> optimistically hopes for:
>Being a Complete Explanation of the Turn Single and Its Variations
>.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
>the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
>other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect of
>having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....
>
>Thusly, folks under a dancing master's instruction, or at home with Treatise
>in hand, would know to do this, without its being specified each time in a
>dance.  I know that many on this list are familiar with Wilson's works; I
>thought he, or writers in earlier times, might have set out a rule or
>guidance or this.

As I said in a previous post, he doesn't address the turn single at
all - it's just gone by that time.  That's a pity, since by that time
there's a definite bias in favor of starting with the right foot and
both mirror-symmetry and whatever one calls non-mirror-symmetry are
used in different figures.  But turn single and starting to the right
feels very strange to me - an old figure done in a "new" style.

My (limited) understanding of Baroque/18thc dances is that the symmetry
ideal shifted to a more mirror-image version, so for 18thc dances my
first instinct would be to have people turn in mirror image, but 
probably still not in cloverleaf format unless that was specifically called
for; in a proper set, I'd have the men turn left and the ladies right as
if casting off.  But boyoboy is baroque *not* my specialty.

Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com writes:
>rather than the common practice. Based on my sense of the tastes of the
>Playford era, the cloverleaf TS would have been the preferred figure when
>the instructions call for turn single. It is my opinion that only if the
>cloverleaf was incompatible with the choreography that preceded and
>followed the turn, would the dancers deviate from the pleasure they found
>in symmetrical choreography and extended eye-contact.

Well, as noted above, I disagree, and I think that the problem is that
we don't think of symmetry the same way they did.  The non-country
dance sources from 1675ish back are pretty unanimous in suggesting
non-mirror image and left-foot default to start.  Country dance did
not develop in a dance void; there are many similarities and probably
actual links in the figures and styles.  Take this dance segment:

Longways for as many as will.  [snip] Honor your partner.  Set to
partner.  Change places with right hands, change back with left, turn
single to the left, lines cast off.

It's not a country dance, and it wasn't originally in English. 

Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
[Well Hall]
>"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."
>
>	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
>unreasonable.

I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
ideal of symmetry.

Susan

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:23:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:24:46 +0100
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugs.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The UK dance festival calendar
To: ECD-AT-
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Someone asked me about UK dance festivals and having typed
it all in it strikes me this could be of more general interest

IVFDF (Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival)
End of February / early March
http://www.ivfdf.ceilidhsoc.org/

Eastbourne
First weekend of May
http://www.eiff.org.uk/

Chippenham
Last weekend of May
http://members.aol.com/chippfolk/index.html

Lichfield
Third weekend of June
http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/lichfolk/

Sidmouth
First week of August
http://www.sidmouthfestival.com/

Broadstairs
Second week of August
http://www.broadstairsfolkweek.com/

Whitby
Third week of August
http://www.folkwhitby.freeserve.co.uk/

Southam
Last weekend of August



IVFDF is not very ECD - more Contra in US-speak, aimed at the
lunatic student audience

IVFDF Eastbourne, Lichfield and Southam are purely dance festivals,
the others include other folk activities.  IVFDF and Lichfield are
just weekends, the others are week-long, or include a public holiday
Monday

I recommend Chippenham to people who want to sample a festival since
it has everything, but is only a weekend.  Sidmouth is enormous
(which you might regard as an advantage, or not); the other week-
long summer festivals are much smaller so you tend not to get much
choice of dance so if there is some band or caller you positively
hate then you might find it difficult to avoid them (but then,
why would a festival book anyone you hate?)

There are also various dance weekends, in particular at
Halsway Manor,
http://www.halswaymanor.co.uk/ but also at assorted Adult Education
residential centres and hotels.  From time to time people organise
days of dance with workshops in the day and evening dances, and of
course lots of clubs organise dances so you can usually find
somewhere to dance on a Saturday evening.

US visitors may want to see Bob Archer's page at
http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm
or Colin Hume's advice at
http://www.colinhume.com/american.htm


Hugh Stewart

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:47:24 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:47:15 +0100 (BST)
From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The UK dance festival calendar
To: ECD-AT-
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To expand on Hugh's message
Lichfield is the weekend which includes the third Friday of June (this year 21-23 June)
Chippenham is the weekend which includes the last Monday of May (except for this year which is Jubilee year and covers first Monday in June)
Sidmouth is the week which includes the first Monday in August (the old bank holiday)
Eastbourne is the weekend preceding and including the first Monday in May

So basically all the above (except Lichfield) revolve around the Bank Holidays or old bank holidays

Paul

In message <3CDA405E.C09E2EBA-AT-
ugs.com> ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> Someone asked me about UK dance festivals and having typed
> it all in it strikes me this could be of more general interest
> 
> IVFDF (Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival)
> End of February / early March
> http://www.ivfdf.ceilidhsoc.org/
> 
> Eastbourne
> First weekend of May
> http://www.eiff.org.uk/
> 
> Chippenham
> Last weekend of May
> http://members.aol.com/chippfolk/index.html
> 
> Lichfield
> Third weekend of June
> http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/lichfolk/
> 
> Sidmouth
> First week of August
> http://www.sidmouthfestival.com/
> 
> Broadstairs
> Second week of August
> http://www.broadstairsfolkweek.com/
> 
> Whitby
> Third week of August
> http://www.folkwhitby.freeserve.co.uk/
> 
> Southam
> Last weekend of August
> 
> 
> 
> IVFDF is not very ECD - more Contra in US-speak, aimed at the
> lunatic student audience
> 
> IVFDF Eastbourne, Lichfield and Southam are purely dance festivals,
> the others include other folk activities.  IVFDF and Lichfield are
> just weekends, the others are week-long, or include a public holiday
> Monday
> 
> I recommend Chippenham to people who want to sample a festival since
> it has everything, but is only a weekend.  Sidmouth is enormous
> (which you might regard as an advantage, or not); the other week-
> long summer festivals are much smaller so you tend not to get much
> choice of dance so if there is some band or caller you positively
> hate then you might find it difficult to avoid them (but then,
> why would a festival book anyone you hate?)
> 
> There are also various dance weekends, in particular at
> Halsway Manor,
> http://www.halswaymanor.co.uk/ but also at assorted Adult Education
> residential centres and hotels.  From time to time people organise
> days of dance with workshops in the day and evening dances, and of
> course lots of clubs organise dances so you can usually find
> somewhere to dance on a Saturday evening.
> 
> US visitors may want to see Bob Archer's page at
> http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm
> or Colin Hume's advice at
> http://www.colinhume.com/american.htm
> 
> 
> Hugh Stewart
> 
> 
================================================================================
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From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The UK dance festival calendar
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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To expand on Hugh's message
Lichfield is the weekend which includes the third Friday of June (this year 21-23 June)
Chippenham is the weekend which includes the last Monday of May (except for this year which is Jubilee year and covers first Monday in June)
Sidmouth is the week which includes the first Monday in August (the old bank holiday)
Eastbourne is the weekend preceding and including the first Monday in May

So basically all the above (except Lichfield) revolve around the Bank Holidays or old bank holidays

Paul

In message <3CDA405E.C09E2EBA-AT-
ugs.com> ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> Someone asked me about UK dance festivals and having typed
> it all in it strikes me this could be of more general interest
> 
> IVFDF (Inter Varsity Folk Dance Festival)
> End of February / early March
> http://www.ivfdf.ceilidhsoc.org/
> 
> Eastbourne
> First weekend of May
> http://www.eiff.org.uk/
> 
> Chippenham
> Last weekend of May
> http://members.aol.com/chippfolk/index.html
> 
> Lichfield
> Third weekend of June
> http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/lichfolk/
> 
> Sidmouth
> First week of August
> http://www.sidmouthfestival.com/
> 
> Broadstairs
> Second week of August
> http://www.broadstairsfolkweek.com/
> 
> Whitby
> Third week of August
> http://www.folkwhitby.freeserve.co.uk/
> 
> Southam
> Last weekend of August
> 
> 
> 
> IVFDF is not very ECD - more Contra in US-speak, aimed at the
> lunatic student audience
> 
> IVFDF Eastbourne, Lichfield and Southam are purely dance festivals,
> the others include other folk activities.  IVFDF and Lichfield are
> just weekends, the others are week-long, or include a public holiday
> Monday
> 
> I recommend Chippenham to people who want to sample a festival since
> it has everything, but is only a weekend.  Sidmouth is enormous
> (which you might regard as an advantage, or not); the other week-
> long summer festivals are much smaller so you tend not to get much
> choice of dance so if there is some band or caller you positively
> hate then you might find it difficult to avoid them (but then,
> why would a festival book anyone you hate?)
> 
> There are also various dance weekends, in particular at
> Halsway Manor,
> http://www.halswaymanor.co.uk/ but also at assorted Adult Education
> residential centres and hotels.  From time to time people organise
> days of dance with workshops in the day and evening dances, and of
> course lots of clubs organise dances so you can usually find
> somewhere to dance on a Saturday evening.
> 
> US visitors may want to see Bob Archer's page at
> http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm
> or Colin Hume's advice at
> http://www.colinhume.com/american.htm
> 
> 
> Hugh Stewart
> 
> 
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 09:21:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Wed, 8 May 2002, Susan wrote:
> Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
> [Well Hall]
> >"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."
> >
> >	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
> >unreasonable.
> 
> I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
> beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
> continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
> rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
> achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
> ideal of symmetry.

	Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over the
left shoulder out of the circle?

	Sigh, there's just an excess of Caroso in my training.  I'm far
too used to a clockwise motion being followed by counterclockwise turn. 
I've tried to embrace the earlier symmetries, but that Guglielmo stuff
just confuses me when I try to grok the patterns.  :-)


					--Ian


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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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In a message dated Wed, 8 May 2002  8:03:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org> writes:
 
but by the Regency era it seems to be out
>of fashion.

>Susan

Pardon my ignorance (and laziness in not looking it up somewhere), but I've been meaing to ask this for some time: Can someone define "Regency" both in terms of time and place, and in terms of dance style?
Thanks.
Carl Friedman
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:05:09 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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Ian writes:
>On Wed, 8 May 2002, Susan wrote:
>> Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
>> [Well Hall]
>> >"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn S."
>> >
>> >	A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not be
>> >unreasonable.
>> 
>> I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
>> beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
>> continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
>> rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
>> achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
>> ideal of symmetry.
>
>	Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over the
>left shoulder out of the circle?

I was using Patricia's description:

>.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
>the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
>other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect of
>having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....

Head couple is "casting up", second couple "casting down".  I think.
Everyone turns away from their partner.  I personally don't find
that a pleasing effect at the end of a hands four round.  YMMV.

>	Sigh, there's just an excess of Caroso in my training.  I'm far
>too used to a clockwise motion being followed by counterclockwise turn. 
>I've tried to embrace the earlier symmetries, but that Guglielmo stuff
>just confuses me when I try to grok the patterns.  :-)

You and I are in violent agreement here; we're both seeing those
Caroso curves.  But I don't think that's what a MECD cloverleaf is; my
understanding of the MECD jargon is that they mean what Patricia
describes.  I could be wildly wrong on this.  Hopefully someone will
clarify.....

Susan


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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:21:11 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
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Carl writes:
>Pardon my ignorance (and laziness in not looking it up somewhere), bu=
>t I've been meaing to ask this for some time: Can someone define "Reg=
>ency" both in terms of time and place, and in terms of dance style?

Sorry.  I'm using it very carelessly.  Technically, the English
Regency refers to the period from 1811-1820 when the future George IV
was the Regent for George III (of American Rev. War fame), who had
finally gone permanently mad.

I am using the term to refer to the period from the end of the 18th
century (and I can't pick an exact date) to the 1820's, when the
country dance had its last big hurrah as a ballroom style, after which
it was mostly killed off by the quadrille and the round dances (waltz,
polka).  This period feels to me stylistically distinct, dramatically
so relative to the very early Playford material (pre-1700) and
somewhat, though less so, from the mid-18thc dances.  I am primarily
referring to English sources, since that's mostly what I work with.
American dance of the period seems to have been similar in style.

Historical-cultural references would include the Napoleonic wars and
Jane Austen's writings.

Susan





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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:28:45 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single - the final word  (joking)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I am not convinced, because (as I have noted before) I rely more heavily on
evidence in things that were made to last for the evidence of what a
society considered pleasing.
When you say that there was a bias against the mirror kind of symmetry in
earlier 17th century material, my response is that one needs only to browse
through a book on Elizabethan gardens to realize the bias was probably the
bias of a few individuals who felt strongly enough about their opinions to
write down careful instructions on how the figures were done. One should
always consider that one of the main reasons why anyone would go to the
trouble of writing down instructions for popular dance moves is that the
author feels they know better than the average instructor. Often such
instructions are designed to stem the tide of popular stylistic change.
There are many examples where this is the case. To mention a few through
history, there are the common assumptions that Country Dancing originated
in France, that puritans frowned on dancing, that one should never
embellish a Ladies Chain with twirls, etc... The recent writings of Ted
Sannella, Dan Pearl, Larry Jennings, and many others on the proper way to
organize, instruct, and lead contradancing are just such materials that
people in the future will look at as irrefutable proof of the way things
were done. However, the astute ones will recognize that there is a flip
side to everything. The only reason anyone would indicate that the Ladies
Chain should be done without twirls is that the move is common practice at
many contradances. Consequently, my approach is to absorb as much as I can
of the lifestyle, financial status, and artistic tastes of a people whose
dances I am trying to interpret because then I can use my own intuition in
association with the tune and arrive at an interpretation that I feel is
closer to the actual than any written accounts.

Back to the cloverleaf -
I am no expert on the written record of the period in Europe. This is in
part because I place little credence in the opinions of individuals but
strive rather for a "generalist" (no pun intended, Susan) view, that is
tempered by recognizing the fact that geographical dialectic styles were
more prevalent in the days when travel was limited or slow and electronic
media did not exist. However, in arriving at my interpretation of Playford
dances, I have found that MIRROR SYMMETRY is compatible with other artistic
efforts that demonstrate that this was a pleasing, not an awkward
attribute. This does not refute the fact that PARALLEL SYMMETRY was also
pleasing, and I often think that my own enjoyment of these dances is in the
way that the figures shift from one symmetry to the other. It is in the
transitions that the craft of the choreographer becomes evident. The
passion of this society included other attributes such as REPETITION and
when a choreographer can incorporate the moves that their audience finds
pleasurable in SEAMLESS FLOW (another fascination) and in ways that speak
the music and also perhaps emphasize the CONTRAST, then their dances became
popular. I also find that there is some satisfaction in the symmetry of a
whole dance. Dances like Juice of Barley where the instructions are the
same for everyone - everyone does every figure, the same choreography, and
yet you still progress - have a whole dance symmetry that is marvelous.

Let me describe just two figures of 2 dances to exemplify why I think they
were pleasing to the dancers then and now. (I will start with the last
figure followed by first).
Hole in the Wall contains 2 casts in a row (mirror symmetry and repetition)
but what makes these figures particularly interesting is that they span the
end of the music and the beginning of the next time through the tune. One
notices that the melody shifts particularly BECAUSE the choreography
repeats (contrast). This has the same appeal as dancing the same dance with
new partner or the common contradance habit of playing medleys of tunes so
that you have the same choreography and partner but different music. It is
the repetition and sameness that points up what is different.
Purcell's Maggot (Siege of Limerick) has a similar figure, but with a new
hitch - the first Lady stops after one cast while her partner continues the
repetition. Just when you thought she was not involved in the repetition,
you find that she has a delayed repeat that has turned her role from
simultaneous mirror symmetry to temporal symmetry and repetition such that
the dance gains a canonic feel for this first part.

I could go on and on but suffice it to say that I draw evidence that mirror
symmetry, exemplified in the cloverleaf turn single was pleasurable to the
Playford era dancers from multiple sources. Rarely are my sources the
written record nor are they from elsewhere in Europe because I think it is
quite conceivable that tastes may have varied considerably over distances
and fads amongst the nobility were transient. Here are a sampling of the
kind of evidence I used in concluding that the cloverleaf was a desirable
interpretation of Playford era dances:
1) The frequency of choreography such as casting which permeates the dances
to such an extent that I find it dubious to think that there was a bias
against this kind of symmetry (unless we are doing casting wrong).
2) The music of the period favors contrary motion to parallel motion in a
style that became known as counterpoint. (Repetition in the form of motifs
on different pitches were also very popular).
3) The Architecture and Landscaping of this period and the Elizabethan show
unusual dedication to mirror symmetry. It is the first thing to strike the
eye. (Once again repetition repetition was abundant).

Just as siding contains a portion of a gypsy, in my opinion turning single
should feel like casting but with the twist that you do not pass another
person but rather return to your starting position. (What becomes important
is what orientation you want for the next figure because the TS should send
you easily into the rest of the dance).

Cammy

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Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
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I agree that a Turn Single over the left shoulder (turning OUT rather than
IN to the circle) after circling left (i.e., clockwise) is preferable to a
cloverleaf.
However, which is best to use in any particular situation is as much
determined by the figure that comes after as the figure that preceeds.



                                                                                                                                   
                      Susan                                                                                                        
                      <susan-AT-
generalist.org>           To:       ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                    
                      Sent by:                         cc:       susan-AT-
generalist.org                                              
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  Re: cloverleaf turn single                                        
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      09-May-2002 10:05 AM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   





Ian writes:
>On Wed, 8 May 2002, Susan wrote:
>> Ian Andrew Engle <ianengle-AT-
gcfn.org> writes:
>> [Well Hall]
>> >"Hands all together, and go half round into your own places and turn
S."
>> >
>> >         A figure that looks like a cloverleaf in this place would not
be
>> >unreasonable.
>>
>> I don't agree, actually.  Everyone is circling clockwise just
>> beforehand.  I think the best flow of the dance would come from
>> continuing to flow to your own left and all turn single that way
>> rather than half the people having to abruptly reverse direction to
>> achieve the cloverleaf.  The dance is 1686; I would follow an earlier
>> ideal of symmetry.
>
>            Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over
the
>left shoulder out of the circle?

I was using Patricia's description:

>.....and when four dancers are executing this figure all at the same time,
>the First Man and the Second Wo. turn over their Left Shoulder, whilst the
>other Two turn over their Right Shoulder.  This creates a pleasing effect
of
>having All Dancers turning away from the Center, blah, blah, blah....

Head couple is "casting up", second couple "casting down".  I think.
Everyone turns away from their partner.  I personally don't find
that a pleasing effect at the end of a hands four round.  YMMV.

>            Sigh, there's just an excess of Caroso in my training.  I'm
far
>too used to a clockwise motion being followed by counterclockwise turn.
>I've tried to embrace the earlier symmetries, but that Guglielmo stuff
>just confuses me when I try to grok the patterns.  :-)

You and I are in violent agreement here; we're both seeing those
Caroso curves.  But I don't think that's what a MECD cloverleaf is; my
understanding of the MECD jargon is that they mean what Patricia
describes.  I could be wildly wrong on this.  Hopefully someone will
clarify.....

Susan






================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:26:22 PST
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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While it is Alan's role to chastise posters who go beyond acceptable
levels of courtesy on this list, I think the point has been reached
in the continued, public attacks on Susan by certain list members,
even after Alan's last post on this subject should have closed all
discussion completely, where it behooves others of us to stand up
publicly and make it clear that we as a community do not sanction
this behavior.  Frankly, I am ashamed to acknowledge that these
individuals are part of our community, and I apologize to Susan for
their behavior.  I would also add that since joining the list Susan
has been nothing but an asset.  With her impressively detailed
command of primary sources and her perspective as a researcher from
outside the strictly Playford period, she has added enormously to the
quality of discussion and knowledge of dance history on this list. 
It would be a great loss to us if the kind of personal attacks to
which she has been subjected were to discourage her from continued
participation, or others like her who might be disuaded from
participating after witnessing her treatment.

Barbara Ruth


--- "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> So, "Susan Generalist" -
> whom or what are you afraid of that lets you remain so secretive
> about your
> identity? The nosy strangers perhaps on whom you lavish your
> innuendo,
> right along with condescention?
> 
>   _-AT-
_      {)/'
>  /\ /\_._,<_/
> '  \      /_\
>    />    /<  Hanny, who has encouraged you before to stand up -
> figuratively speaking - and be counted.
> 


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:42:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:42:10 -0700
From: ruthtemple-AT-
ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1020966130.0.20268500-AT-
webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I agree with Barbara.

Shame on you, Hanny. Personal attacks do NOT belong in polite society, even if you disagree with someone's opinions or research.

You've driven me away from wanting to follow this list. ew.

Ruth 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:56:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:57:34 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CDAB88D.2C0F0AAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <20020509172614.86843.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com>

I agree with Barbara for the most part. Susan has the right to be an
anonymous contribor if that is her wish. I do not view Hanny's message
as a personal attack, just a tactless display of curiosity. We usually
shrug off these things in ordinary conversation.
Al

--
Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
102 Loring Avenue
Pelham, NY 10803

Tel. 914 738-7678
Fax: 718 405-8037



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:13:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:14:08 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CDABC6F.ADF48171-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <E175oXd-000227-00-AT-
black.generalist.org>

Ian wrote:
>       Poor Uncle Sion is confused.  Isn't a cloverleaf a turn over the

>left shoulder out of the circle?

Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.

In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,
Al



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:24:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:40:05 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: BEFORE the list goes down in flames..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF0F5EF9E1.C18E11CF-ON85256BB4.006393C6-AT-
infinity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


Let's all remember that even people of good will can, in conscience,
disagree. They can even disagree about matters of deep and pervasive
importance to themselves and the world--and remain in relationship. For
example, my grandparents--my grandfather a good Democrat, my grandmother
forever muttering about how Roosevelt had ruined the country.
It is the style of our disagreement--not its occurrence--that matters here.
There are *two* disagreements here, one confused with another--which is why
things seem suddenly to have taken an ugly turn. The first concerns one of
the usual and appropriate topics of the list; the other concerns backing
one's opinions or claims with one's reputation and identity. If I may
indulge in a little mind-reading, I think in part Hanny is saying, "I don't
agree with you, but you seem to be wearing a mask, so how can I deal with
my points of disagreement?"

At earlier points, list members have been encouraged to use full names
rather than bylines, initials, or number strings. And certainly *I* am
inclined to delete messages from initials or number strings without reading
them. To me, it's always better to put your name to your views. A list like
this is a form of public meeting or continuing conference--and, anonymity
in email is always an illusion.

But certainly, courtesy--and, the benefit of the doubt--must be utilized,
even in the midst of principled disagreements.

My response--to *all* of us is:

Off with the mask! but also:

PAUSE before SEND.

Graham ['Arbiter Elegantiae'] Christian


"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:29:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:29:19 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p05100302b9006e002b36-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <E175oXd-000227-00-AT-
black.generalist.org> <3CDABC6F.ADF48171-AT-
sprintmail.com>

At 2:14 PM -0400, on 5/9/02, Albert Blank wrote:

>Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
>(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.
>
>In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,

It doesn't disturb me but it does confuse me. Is the "right/left" 
distinction based on dancers facing up/down or is it based on dancers 
facing across?
-- 
Gary
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:35:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:31:38 -0400
From: Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net>
Subject: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3CDAC08A.6070107-AT-
comcast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
References: <20020509172614.86843.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com> <3CDAB88D.2C0F0AAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>

First of all, I took the note referred to below as just Hanny being 
Hanny.  Years past, the late Philadelphia Bulletin did an aritcle on 
folk dancing in Philadelphia and referred to her as "the General Patton 
of Folk Dance".  That's a bit unfair to Hanny, but apt.

It's amusing to see this controversy recur yet again.  I've been using 
the internet since the late-70's -- long before the Web was invented -- 
and recall this controversy time and time again.  The first means for 
anonymous posting was then known as netnews or just plain news and every 
few weeks some news reader would get bent out of shape because someone 
else used a UID or other pseudonomic signature.

Plus ça change...

    Stay well; stay agile

    Dick Wexelblat

P.S.  Recall the oft quoted New Yorker cartoon: "On the Internet no one 
knows you're a dog."



Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore wrote:

>I agree with Barbara for the most part. Susan has the right to be an
>anonymous contribor if that is her wish. 
>--
>Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
>102 Loring Avenue
>Pelham, NY 10803
>
>Tel. 914 738-7678
>Fax: 718 405-8037
>
>
>
>


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:50:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:51:58 -0400
From: Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3CDAC54E.2E4FC044-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <E175oXd-000227-00-AT-
black.generalist.org> <3CDABC6F.ADF48171-AT-
sprintmail.com> <p05100302b9006e002b36-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>

Hello, Gary,

The "minor set" (in a longways set) implied below indicates that corners
(diagonals) refers to dancers facing across. A caller would have to be
very explicit if anything else was meant.
--
Al

"Gary D. Shapiro" wrote:

> At 2:14 PM -0400, on 5/9/02, Albert Blank wrote:
>
> >Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
> >(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.
> >
> >In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,
>
> It doesn't disturb me but it does confuse me. Is the "right/left"
> distinction based on dancers facing up/down or is it based on dancers
> facing across?
> --
> Gary


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:57:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:57:28 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFFDAF34EA.7E07B0AA-ON85256BB4.00674E18-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


Another way to describe it, is that one couple turns single starting up the
set and the other down as in "cast" but do not progress (but rather return
to one's starting place). I also use cloverleaf to describe the same figure
but opposite turns so that one starts toward one's neighbor then together
they TS out from the set, separate and around to place. My rule of thumb
for these is to look at what comes before and what comes after. If the
figure before does not strongly indicate which way to turn, ask whether the
figure that follows is one in which you want to be facing your neighbor or
your partner. If it is either of those, start the cloverleaf by turning
toward that person, together turn away from the others and peal off back to
place facing for the next figure.

Cammy (and by the way my last name is Kaynor though I'm not sure why that
should matter)



                                                                                                                                   
                      "Gary D. Shapiro"                                                                                            
                      <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>               To:       ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU                                      
                      Sent by:                         cc:                                                                         
                      owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.S        Subject:  "corners" jargon (was Re: cloverleaf turn single)                 
                      TANFORD.EDU                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                      09-May-2002 02:29 PM                                                                                         
                      Please respond to ECD                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




At 2:14 PM -0400, on 5/9/02, Albert Blank wrote:

>Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
>(diagonals) turn sigle left while left corners turn right.
>
>In trust my "corners" jargon no longer disturbs anyone,

It doesn't disturb me but it does confuse me. Is the "right/left"
distinction based on dancers facing up/down or is it based on dancers
facing across?
--
Gary




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:27:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 15:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: cloverleaf turn single
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0205091523490.49190-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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On Thu, 9 May 2002, Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore wrote:

> Briefly, the usual meaning in a minor set of four is: right corners
> (diagonals) turn single left while left corners turn right.

All of this turn single stuff has me going in circles.  My basic question
is, if the dances dervie from the 17th and 18th centuries, when most were
illiterate, how did they know right from left?  And why?  And if they
didn't have wrist watches or that many clocks, how did they know what was
clockwise?  Would these limitations have changed how they define the
turns?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:53:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 15:44:56 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: BEFORE the list goes down in flames..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OFA1628D0D.59C1F37E-ON85256BB4.006B8BB4-AT-
biogen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Graham,
Despite your attempt to justify as curiosity what another views as
intrusion, I feel that respecting another's privacy is part and parcel of
what I call "common courtesy." I have found that by being courteous and
respectful, one can develop the kind of trust that can bring about pleasant
and productive communication that benefits both parties. Isn't that what we
strive to do as dancers, callers, musicians, etc... in every interaction?
After another list member's attempts to pry, I contacted Susan off-line and
here is one snippet of our very enjoyable correspondence that I feel proves
my point.

Susan says:
...Is that enough intro?  :)  I will note that I now know more about
you, and you more about me, than I know about the entire rest of the list
put together...

I don't know what she looks like, I suspect she is fun to dance with, I
know we differ in opinion on very basic aspects of ECD (e.g., the
cloverleaf TS), but nonetheless, I enjoy her E-company and contributions.
Give others the benefit of the doubt and be tolerant (and who has been more
tolerant than Susan who has chosen not to identify herself further, been
nagged for it, and STILL shares her insight with us?). Privacy is a very
important thing and it is equally important that we respect people's
privacy.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:55:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 16:10:49 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: turning
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <OF12989BDF.178C858F-ON85256BB4.006DE00E-AT-
infinity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Well, the *dancing masters* weren't illiterate, insofar as we can
tell--otherwise, what would the market have been for the Playfords and
Walshes and Wrights? And even the poorest would have seen a town clock, and
been able to observe the direction of the hands' motion, even if the
numbers looked like nonsense.
However.

Directions from the 17th and 18th c. do not say (for the most part)
"clockwise" or "corners" or "diagonals." They might say "go about" or "four
hands quite round"--but with no indication of direction. Hence the
controversies about the *direction* of a turn or a movement. *They* (that
is, the dance-composers, and their audience of other dancing-masters
[mistresses?]) took it for granted--but times have changed. Indeed, as
Susan observed, the left-default of the mid-17th c. seems to have become a
right-default by the late 18th c.

They say "1. man and 2. wo."--but not first corners or first diagonals.
That's a modern abbreviation. Why are the "firsts" first?--I *suspect*, for
sexist/dextrous reasons--because of that "first man", and because it does
make the "right" diagonal observed from the top of the hall.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 247
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems, BancWare
3 Post Office Square
Boston, MA  02109

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."



**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.


**********************************************************************

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 12:55:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:57:09 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Unacceptable and outrageous personal attacks on this list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <001101c1f793$b4f828e0$c42a4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20020509172614.86843.qmail-AT-
web13606.mail.yahoo.com> <3CDAB88D.2C0F0AAA-AT-
sprintmail.com>

Hi folks:

I agree with Barbara; Susan's contributions have been fascinating and
scholarly, and I for one haven't felt condescended to. She has knowledge and
is willing to share it, and the perspective from another part of the dance
forest is illuminating.

As for anonymity...she's not anonymous. She's Susan. If she chooses to make
that the total of her name, it's her choice. And if she chooses to be
private about her group affiliations (if any) and address, that's her choice
too.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:22:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 16:20:08 -0400
From: "Green, David" <Green-AT-
gts.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Rights and Lefts
To: "ECD List (E-mail)" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <7348C1502B13F344843330794758CFD11D92DF-AT-
mail.GTS.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_T7xyOxfgRuKd0Qob2so2mg)"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_T7xyOxfgRuKd0Qob2so2mg)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

For those having trouble with "right" and "left," or "clockwise" and "anticlockwise," there's the alternative of "dextrorotary" and "levorotary."  There's always another way to express something ...
 
-- David

--Boundary_(ID_T7xyOxfgRuKd0Qob2so2mg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=980111920-09052002><FONT face=Arial size=2>For those having 
trouble with "right" and "left," or "clockwise" and "anticlockwise," 
there's&nbsp;the alternative of "dextrorotary" and "levorotary."&nbsp; There's 
<STRONG>always</STRONG> another way to express something ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980111920-09052002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980111920-09052002><FONT face=Arial size=2>-- 
David</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_T7xyOxfgRuKd0Qob2so2mg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:05:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20020509210549.91617.qmail-AT-
web13604.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


--- Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net> wrote:
> First of all, I took the note referred to below as just Hanny being

> Hanny.  Years past, the late Philadelphia Bulletin did an aritcle
> on 
> folk dancing in Philadelphia and referred to her as "the General
> Patton 
> of Folk Dance".  That's a bit unfair to Hanny, but apt.
 
But it is Susan who is being insulted, and she is a newcomer to this 
group who can't be expected to know that Hanny is just being her own
irascible self.  Besides which, the fact that someone makes a habit
of being offensive and objectionable does not therefore make it more
acceptable coming from them.  Hanny has attacked Susan twice now on
this list, the second time after Susan made it quite clear that she
doesn't appreciate this direction of inquiry and after the list-owner
made it clear that there is no basis for the subject to be raised
again.  For anyone who has never been subject to these kinds of
attacks, I assure you it is a painful experience.  I am not willing
to assent by my silence to this being done to anyone, nor am I
willing to stand by while these attacks drive a valuable member off
the list.
B.


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:19:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 22:16:26 +0100
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000b01c1f79e$c7810760$c4b401d5-AT-
michael>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

And there was me thinking that Hanny was a male!!!

Michael Barraclough
http://www.mab.tgis.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU] On Behalf Of Barbara Ruth
Sent: 09 May 2002 22:06
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)


--- Dick Wexelblat <dick.wexelblat-AT-
comcast.net> wrote:
> First of all, I took the note referred to below as just Hanny being

> Hanny.  Years past, the late Philadelphia Bulletin did an aritcle
> on 
> folk dancing in Philadelphia and referred to her as "the General
> Patton 
> of Folk Dance".  That's a bit unfair to Hanny, but apt.
 
But it is Susan who is being insulted, and she is a newcomer to this 
group who can't be expected to know that Hanny is just being her own
irascible self.  Besides which, the fact that someone makes a habit
of being offensive and objectionable does not therefore make it more
acceptable coming from them.  Hanny has attacked Susan twice now on
this list, the second time after Susan made it quite clear that she
doesn't appreciate this direction of inquiry and after the list-owner
made it clear that there is no basis for the subject to be raised
again.  For anyone who has never been subject to these kinds of
attacks, I assure you it is a painful experience.  I am not willing
to assent by my silence to this being done to anyone, nor am I
willing to stand by while these attacks drive a valuable member off
the list.
B.


=====
"There is no inverse relationship between freedom and security. Less of
one does not lead to more of the other. People with no rights are not
safe from terrorist attack."  Molly Ivins

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:24:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:17:12 -0400
From: Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Historical note on anonymity (no real ECD content)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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biogen.com>
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Graham,
In rereading what I wrote on the ECD list, I realize it sounded as though I
was criticizing your message because it was addressed to you (the most
recent respondent). I did not intend it that way. I support your example of
assuming Hanny meant no harm and of being tolerant of slip-ups in
etiquette. I guess I was trying to add that such mistakes should be taken
as encouragement to pay more attention to tendencies to forget common
courtesy when we are consumed with curiosity.

I have been thinking about how often in my short sojourn here on the list I
have admonished people to think about the impact of things from the
perspective of the newcomer. On issues of courtesy, we must also be careful
not to turn away more experienced dancers. Example just today:
"...You've driven me away from wanting to follow this list..."

Recently my 6th grade boy was beaten up by bullies on the playground at
school. That was upsetting but what was really traumatic for me was the
frequency with which we heard "boys will be boys" as justification for the
episode from school administrators, local police, and school committee
members. Boys will be boys is an explanation, not a justification and
should not be used as an excuse for complacency. Let's not fall into the
trap of saying "Hanny will be Hanny" but rather do as has been done on the
list this day - remind her AND ourselves to be sensitive to all other
members of the group.

Cammy

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:43:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:43:20 -0400
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: BEFORE the list goes down in flames..
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <6076277A.5805D4DC.0003FAAA-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated Thu, 9 May 2002 =A03:54:11 PM Eastern Daylight Tim=
e, Campbell_Kaynor-AT-
biogen.com writes:

>
>Graham,
>Despite your attempt to justify as curiosity what another views as
>intrusion, I feel that respecting another's privacy is part and parc=
el of
>what I call "common courtesy." I have found that by being courteous =
and
>respectful, one can develop the kind of trust that can bring about p=
leasant
>and productive communication that benefits both parties. Isn't that =
what we
>strive to do as dancers, callers, musicians, etc... in every interac=
tion?
>After another list member's attempts to pry, I contacted Susan off-l=
ine and
>here is one snippet of our very enjoyable correspondence that I feel=
 proves
>my point.
>
>Susan says:
>...Is that enough intro? =A0:) =A0I will note that I now know more a=
bout
>you, and you more about me, than I know about the entire rest of the=
 list
>put together...
>
>I don't know what she looks like, I suspect she is fun to dance with=
, I
>know we differ in opinion on very basic aspects of ECD (e.g., the
>cloverleaf TS), but nonetheless, I enjoy her E-company and contribut=
ions.
>Give others the benefit of the doubt and be tolerant (and who has be=
en more
>tolerant than Susan who has chosen not to identify herself further, =
been
>nagged for it, and STILL shares her insight with us?). Privacy is a =
very
>important thing and it is equally important that we respect people's
>privacy.
>
>Cammy
>

As one who, several months ago, asked Susan (respectfully and gently,=
 I thought) who she is, I'd like to chime in at this point. First, wh=
en I asked the question originally, it didn't cross my mind that Susa=
n was intentionally being anonymous, or that anyone would have a reas=
on for being anonymous to this list. I assumed that she had her e-mai=
l program automatically sign her messages "Susan" and asked what I th=
ought was an ordinary, innocent question. I agree that everyone is en=
titled to all the e-mail anonymity and privacy they want (although I =
still can't imagine why anyone would feel the need), but I'd still li=
ke to know with whom I'm having a conversation. Given Susan's obvious=
ly informed, researched, and interesting insights into ECD, which cle=
arly come from a viewpoint different from mine and from most (all?) o=
ther list members, it seemed an appropriate question: of all the many=
 Susans I have met or will meet in the future on the dance floor, whi=
ch (if any) is this Susan? won't it be delightful when I
Carl Friedman

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:45:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:43:32 -0400
From: Susan <susan-AT-
generalist.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: turning
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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generalist.org
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"Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu> writes:
>All of this turn single stuff has me going in circles.  My basic question
>is, if the dances dervie from the 17th and 18th centuries, when most were
>illiterate, how did they know right from left?  And why?  And if they
>didn't have wrist watches or that many clocks, how did they know what was
>clockwise?  Would these limitations have changed how they define the
>turns?

Graham has already observed that the term clockwise (among others)
wasn't used to describe moves.  Right and left, however, were
well known fairly early on, although I have no idea why.  Fascinating
question.

The earliest dance source I have handy is generally considered to be
pre-1455, and includes numerous mentions of left and right feet,
albeit in Italian: "...comenzando al pede sinistro e fazando fine al
drito..."[beginning on the left foot and ending on the right].  They
knew the terms and the concept.  So why leave them out?  Either
1) it didn't matter, or 2) it was unnecessary because "everyone knew."

I don't know what the literacy rate was in general, although I'm sure
someone has studied that question, but it seems a fair assumption that
the audience for dance manuals was literate, else the manuals are
useless, and middle class or better, since they had money for manuals
and time to look at them.  "Country dances" does not imply that these
are the dances of the illiterate peasantry - one of the earlier
references to them is of Queen Elizabeth I's ladies dancing them
for her entertainment.

Susan