Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:48:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:48:34 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: copyright and fair use discussion
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F128NwRC6HixqD00005af6-AT-
hotmail.com>
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One response to the E.Arnold/ J. Berger (chiefly) exchange might be 
summarized, "let's not talk about this, people get too upset." (I hope that 
is more or less accurate).

I would disagree. I have found it very informative -- and I think that 
people in the ECD community (and related communities) should be better 
informed on this and related topics: copyright, fair use, etc. As a 
librarian, moreover one whose days are increasingly caught up in licensing 
issues, I'd agree that it's a highly complex and often misunderstood area, 
which moreover is changing rapidly and won't get settled any time soon.

One way in which it impacts us is, of course, the issue of "collecting" 
others' work. The dance community has had a history of individuals, or 
groups, adopting others' creative work -- on the grounds that it's all the 
anonymous folk process, I suppose. (See Boyes, "Imagined Village," for some 
of this.) The Real McPlayford is perhaps in the public domain by now, but 
certainly a lot of individuals are out there composing and performing new 
music, dances, etc., and deserve acknowledgement and credit. (I'd like to 
see use of the word "collected" banned in application to dances/ music/ 
etc., but I understand others disagree.)

A final thought: I see nothing wrong in people disagreeing publicly. I think 
it's more productive to argue than sulk.

Steve Corrsin
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:32:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:28:24 -0400
From: Country Dance and Song Society <office-AT-
cdss.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: NEW DANCE PROGRAM FOR 2001
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.1.20010601112731.00a2cf00-AT-
crocker.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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Dear Friends,

Announcing a Special English Country Dance Session at Pinewoods at Folk
Music Week!

CDSS has a unique opportunity this summer. In large part because of its
position at the end of the summer this year, we have an unusually high
number of spaces still available at Folk Music Week. Similarly, due in part
to the move from those same dates, English Dance and English & American
Dance Weeks have painfully long waiting lists. The circumstances give us the
opportunity to join these two communities by adding a strong English Country
Dance program to the existing Folk Music Week. It is our hope that country
dancers will be introduced to folk song in a new way and that folk singers
and musicians will be delighted by these wonderful dances.

Please see the description page at
http://www.cdss.org/programs/2001/ed-at-fm.html

or call, write or email for more information.

We hope you will come explore this opportunity with us this summer!

Steve Howe
Program Coordinator
Country Dance and Song Society
camp-AT-
cdss.org
413-268-7426 ex3

Country Dance and Song Society
PO Box 338/132 Main St, Haydenville, MA 01039-0338
Phone: 413-268-7426	Fax:413-268-7471	http://www.cdss.org
office-AT-
cdss.org		sales-AT-
cdss.org		camp-AT-
cdss.org

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:48:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: copyright and fair use discussion
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010601194751.25171.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com> wrote:
> One way in which it impacts us is, of course, the issue of
> "collecting" others' work. The dance community has had a
> history of individuals, or groups, adopting others' creative
> work -- on the grounds that it's all the anonymous folk
> process, I suppose. (See Boyes, "Imagined Village," for some
> of this.) The Real McPlayford is perhaps in the public domain
> by now, but certainly a lot of individuals are out there
> composing and performing new music, dances, etc., and deserve
> acknowledgement and credit. (I'd like to see use of the word
> "collected" banned in application to dances/ music/ etc., but
I
> understand others disagree.)
> 
The question of "collecting" is very prevalent among Contras,
where a caller likes a dance called by someone else and writes
it out in a notebook or on a card. Often they try to talk to the
caller later and learn more about the dance, but not always. The
original choreographer often gets lost after this goes through
several generations. For better or worse, even the original
figures get changed over time. It is incumbent upon a caller to
credit the dance to the mastermind behind it, if known, but the
person they got it from may not know the originator. So does
this mean that the collector shouldn't use the dance if they
can't give proper credit for it?? My feeling is that if I write
a dance, I would rather people dance it and enjoy it without me
getting credit, rather than keeping it under lock and key and
only allowing those whom I know will give me credit for its use.

> A final thought: I see nothing wrong in people disagreeing
> publicly. I think it's more productive to argue than sulk.
> 
Isn't that part of the purpose of this group, to bring things
out in the open and (sometimes) disagree with each other?

Andy in Portland

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:08:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:08:21 -0300
From: John Wood <johnwood-AT-
accesscable.net>
Subject: Message Re Explanation of Copyright
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B181255.6AF24BC9-AT-
accesscable.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
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Hi Folks:

I do apologize for intruding, but found the explanation
about copyright greatly helpful.

But, unfortunately, in making every endeavour to preserve
that and other following messages about copyright , I fouled up.
Not only did I lose completely the explanation but the
follow-ups to it as well.

I am not sure who it was from. It  would be much appreciated
if someone would be good enough to send privately a repeat
of that message. It would be of great assistance.

Sorry about that, but I must admit I am "fishing" at
the moment.

Regards, John
Bedford, Nova Scotia
 
 
 
 
 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:12:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Message Re Explanation of Copyright
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K499EDVTP88WVZD8-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

John Wood wrote:

> I do apologize for intruding, but found the explanation
> about copyright greatly helpful.

> But, unfortunately, in making every endeavour to preserve
> that and other following messages about copyright , I fouled up.
> Not only did I lose completely the explanation but the
> follow-ups to it as well.

> I am not sure who it was from. It would be much appreciated
> if someone would be good enough to send privately a repeat
> of that message. It would be of great assistance.

If you have web access, you can get the discussion from the archives of 
the list.  Go to 

http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx  and follow the link
to the archives.  (You can either pick the monthly archive for May 2001 or
go for a subject line search and look for copyright.)

I post this to remind everybody that this is available.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:11:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:20:29 -0700
From: Marian Phillips <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: the ECD archive (was: Explanation of Copyright)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <00b901c0eb2c$3ca664c0$70bcb0d0-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <01K499EDVTP88WVZD8-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Alan Winston writes, of the ECD list archive:
> I post this to remind everybody that this is available.

And I'll say something that I said here a long time ago but that bears
repeating:  the archive is fascinating.  When I first discovered the archive
I wasted hours -- maybe totalling days -- of my employer's time thinking up
things I was interested in and then doing searches in the archive for the
topics.  It was like my own personal online Encyclopedia of English Country
Dance.  It was also sometimes a bit like reading one of those collections of
Wacky Letters to the Times.  Much, much fun.

Marian Phillips

PS -- I hope it's being backed up somewhere.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:13:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 02:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The Baker's Retreat
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4c.16282798.2849de03-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT



In a message dated 5/31/01 7:00:51 AM, mjones010-AT-
earthlink.net writes:

>Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:45:08 -0400
>From: Mary Jones <mjones010-AT-
earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: The Beau's Retreat
>Message-ID: <003c01c0e96a$f2145d80$b54e353f-AT-
cyir4>
>
>Hi Nilos!
>
>Looks like a fun dance, though I 've never danced or called it...a lot
>of
>someone following someone else.  Now for the perfect non sequitor:
>
>Will you be cooking at Pinewoods this summer?  Sure hope so  for all of
>us!!
>
>Mary (always looking for the Studmuffin set) Jones

Hi Mary!
Nope, not me.  (But I'll take the compliment.)  I'm just a lowly volunteer 
this year.  Jeremy "too young to be so effing talented" Morrison will be your 
Studmuffin du Cuisine at Pinewoods this summer.  

Be nice to him, ladies and gentlemen.  Praise him extravagantly.   Overlook 
any rough spots you might happen to encounter in his operation.  First summer 
as head cook is nerve-wracking enough without a bunch of people going on 
about how good it was *last* year.    

Swift reversion to topic:
I know it was customary for a Beau, after having run up vast debts at the 
gaming tables and in the pursuit of sartorial perfection, to flee his 
creditors and go live quietly in France somewhere.  Brummell did it, so it 
must have been The Thing....nor, apparently, did he lack company.  Do we have 
any way of knowing if that is the sort of retreat referred to?

Nilos, who will also not be making any tiny marzipan creditors or bailiffs 
any time in the near future.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:42:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 02:43:02 -0500
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Recipes
To: English Article <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <01cc01c0eb37$ab8c4840$eeef520c-AT-
pavilion>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

website at 
http://www.recipezaar.com/help/copyright.zsp

has a discussion about copyright of recipes.

Dianna

Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
Scottish Country Dancing and More
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
PMB 134, 1302 Waugh Drive
Houston, TX 77019-3908
phone: 713-522-1212
DANCE LOCATION:
Oddfellows Hall, 115 E. 14th St. (Heights), Houston, Texas 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 05:11:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 09:11:27 -0300
From: John Wood <johnwood-AT-
accesscable.net>
Subject: Re: Message Re Explanation of Copyright [2]
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B18D7EF.A45D61E2-AT-
accesscable.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <01K499EDVTP88WVZD8-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Thank you, once again Alan.

> > I do apologize for intruding, but found the explanation
> > about copyright greatly helpful.
> If you have web access, you can get the discussion from the archives of
> the list.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:17:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:16:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Baltimore Playford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <9.166e8ba9.284c579b-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Announcing: 
The 20th Annual Baltimore Folk Music Society Playford Ball, Saturday, 20 
October 2001.
Music by Bare Necessities, at The Church of the Redeemer in Baltimore. 

Program:  The Ashford Anniversary, Dick's Maggot, Dublin Bay, Barbarini's 
Tambourine, Elizabeth, The Fandango, Hambleton's Round O, Hudson Barn, The 
Irish Lamentation, Jacob Hall's Jig, Jaque Latin, King of Poland, Lilli 
Burlero, Mad Robin, Newcastle, The Parson's Farewell, Scotch Cap, Smithy 
Hill, Up With Aily, Easter Morn
     
Dance review from 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. 
Reception at 7:00 p.m.
Dance: 7:30-11:15 p.m. 
There will be minimal prompting following brief talk-throughs
Admission: $26 Members (BFMS, FSGW, CDSS, & ATDS); $30 Non-Member
Register by September 20th and deduct $2

Info: 410-321-8419; or e-mail: playford-AT-
bfms.org
On-line registration flyer at www.bfms.org/events/playfordball.html

We hope to see many of you here in Baltimore October 20th!

Carl and Diane Friedman
Ball Co-chairs  
 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:21:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:20:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Baltimore Playford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a6.14d8fca9.284c5891-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Dear friends, we are delighted to announce: 

The 20th Annual Baltimore Folk Music Society Playford Ball, Saturday, 20 
October 2001.
Music by Bare Necessities, at The Church of the Redeemer in Baltimore. 

Program:  The Ashford Anniversary, Dick's Maggot, Dublin Bay, Barbarini's 
Tambourine, Elizabeth, The Fandango, Hambleton's Round O, Hudson Barn, The 
Irish Lamentation, Jacob Hall's Jig, Jaque Latin, King of Poland, Lilli 
Burlero, Mad Robin, Newcastle, The Parson's Farewell, Scotch Cap, Smithy 
Hill, Up With Aily, Easter Morn
     
Dance review from 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. 
Reception at 7:00 p.m.
Dance: 7:30-11:15 p.m. 
There will be minimal prompting following brief talk-throughs
Admission: $26 Members (BFMS, FSGW, CDSS, & ATDS); $30 Non-Member
Register by September 20th and deduct $2

Info: 410-321-8419; or e-mail: playford-AT-
bfms.org
On-line registration flyer at www.bfms.org/events/playfordball.html

We hope to see many of you here in Baltimore October 20th!

Carl and Diane Friedman
Ball Co-chairs  
 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:30:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:29:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Baltimore Playford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <10d.dfa92a.284c5ab4-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Dear friends, we are delighted to announce: 

The 20th Annual Baltimore Folk Music Society Playford Ball, Saturday, 20 
October 2001.
Music by Bare Necessities, at The Church of the Redeemer in Baltimore. 

Program:  The Ashford Anniversary, Dick's Maggot, Dublin Bay, Barbarini's 
Tambourine, Elizabeth, The Fandango, Hambleton's Round O, Hudson Barn, The 
Irish Lamentation, Jacob Hall's Jig, Jaque Latin, King of Poland, Lilli 
Burlero, Mad Robin, Newcastle, The Parson's Farewell, Scotch Cap, Smithy 
Hill, Up With Aily, Easter Morn
     
Dance review from 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. 
Reception at 7:00 p.m.
Dance: 7:30-11:15 p.m. 
There will be minimal prompting following brief talk-throughs
Admission: $26 Members (BFMS, FSGW, CDSS, & ATDS); $30 Non-Member
Register by September 20th and deduct $2

Info: 410-321-8419; or e-mail: playford-AT-
bfms.org
On-line registration flyer at www.bfms.org/events/playfordball.html

We hope to see many of you here in Baltimore October 20th!

Carl and Diane Friedman
Ball Co-chairs  
 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 07:07:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 10:09:36 -0400
From: Carolyn Worthing <worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <EKEBJNKEEFDMIIJBIHDHGEGGCFAA.worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Our group has used cassettes for many of our weekly dances and slowly are
adding CDs to our collection.
The CD player we have plugged into our sound system is a basic level discman
type and we are now wanting to upgrade.
Any equipment recommendations out there?

Carolyn Worthing
Chapel Hill, NC

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:46:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:46:28 -0400
From: "Albert A. Blank" <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B1BE594.C67B7757-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <EKEBJNKEEFDMIIJBIHDHGEGGCFAA.worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>

Dear Carol:
    It depends on what you want. The quality of sound you get will depend little
on the player you use. The question is what features do you want. Do you want to
put an evening program together from several CDs?  Many players can do a  very
satisfactory job of that. If portability is a major factor, there is nothing
wrong with what you have. Consumer Reports has reviewed players. You might start
there for ideas. Get in touch with me off-site if you want to go into
particulars that the list won't generally care about.

Ciao

Carolyn Worthing wrote (in part):

> The CD player we have plugged into our sound system is a basic level discman
> type and we are now wanting to upgrade.
> Any equipment recommendations out there?

Albert Blank

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:00:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:50:04 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p04330101b741ac2755f2-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <EKEBJNKEEFDMIIJBIHDHGEGGCFAA.worthing-AT-
mindspring.com>

At 10:09 AM -0400, on 6/4/01, Carolyn Worthing wrote:
>Our group has used cassettes for many of our weekly dances and slowly are
>adding CDs to our collection.
>The CD player we have plugged into our sound system is a basic level discman
>type and we are now wanting to upgrade.
>Any equipment recommendations out there?

Consider using a laptop or notebook computer.

Advantages:

* You can convert your tapes to computer sound files (e.g., MP3).

* You can play CDs on the computer's CD player and/or convert CD 
tracks to computer sound files.

* Using the right software, you can slow the music down (without 
changing the pitch). Or you can change the pitch without changing the 
speed of the music, in case you want to change the key or just make 
it a little bit flat or sharp (say, if someone wants to accompany the 
recording and their instrument is tuned a little flat or sharp).

* It's an excuse to buy that laptop computer you wanted anyway.

* Possiblly less stuff to lug around (no cassette player, no CD 
player, not necessarily any CDs).

* People will ooh and aah at your high-tech setup.

Disadvantages:

* People will think you're just trying to impress them with your 
high-tech setup.

* It's just an excuse to buy that computer you don't really need.

* More computer crap to buy.

* More computer crap to learn.


Just last Saturday I taught Ashford Anniversary to a group of new 
dancers. They understood the dance, but just couldn't react in time. 
So I slowed the CD down a little and they were able to do the dance.

Disclosure: I'm a computer junkie.



-- 
"Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies
Gary Shapiro <http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:21:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:51:12 -0500
From: Bill McDonald <McDjr-AT-
swbell.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001201c0ed48$dbdd1020$99ccfea9-AT-
Laptop>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_scCjO07w9gUDjJJ7b4ElLQ)"
References: <EKEBJNKEEFDMIIJBIHDHGEGGCFAA.worthing-AT-
mindspring.com> <p04330101b741ac2755f2-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_scCjO07w9gUDjJJ7b4ElLQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Gary,

You're right on (and I'm not particularly a computer junkie).  Using even a cheap(er) used laptop works, so long as you don't load it up (I use a 233 Dell that I bought on Ebay for < $500 and it works fine).

One other advantage embedded in your list of benefits:  Once the files are recorded (I include 5 seconds of silence as a lead-in and 15 seconds at the end to allow for starting and stopping) and saved on the hard drive, I can create an evening's dance card in only the time it takes to drag and drop them into the MP3 player.  The transitions during the dance are simple--no fumbling around with multiple tapes and/or CDs.  Each piece of music is perfectly cued and ready to go in the proper order. And, the playlist is printable so that you have a hard copy to post/distribute at the dance.  Additionally the playlist file is labeled and saved so that I have a record of the dances we used in a particular evening, which makes it easy to keep track of where we've been and what dances in our repertoire may be over or under used.

A bit more technical benefit (with the correct software you described) is the ability to create seamless loops, extending the length of recorded music to allow for specific needs.  This software essentially does for music what a word processor does for text--you can cut, paste, format, change or duplicate.  Example: I have lots of recorded music for 3Co sets that is only played thru on the original recording one time.  I have looped these dances so that I now have multiple passes through the music to allow for longer dance time.

Finally, let me strongly resonate with the ability to slow the dances down (you folks with live music have this as an inherent advantage).  My teaching experience has been exactly the same as yours.  Newbies often struggle not so much with the complexity of the steps in a given dance, but the speed with which they come.  The ability to slow down pre-recorded music by 20% gives them the time they need to become familiar with the dance, at which time full-speed can be resumed with a much higher satisfaction and success level.

McDjr

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gary D. Shapiro 
  To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
  Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 4:50 PM
  Subject: Re: CD players for sound system


  At 10:09 AM -0400, on 6/4/01, Carolyn Worthing wrote:
  >Our group has used cassettes for many of our weekly dances and slowly are
  >adding CDs to our collection.
  >The CD player we have plugged into our sound system is a basic level discman
  >type and we are now wanting to upgrade.
  >Any equipment recommendations out there?

  Consider using a laptop or notebook computer.

  Advantages:

  * You can convert your tapes to computer sound files (e.g., MP3).

  * You can play CDs on the computer's CD player and/or convert CD 
  tracks to computer sound files.

  * Using the right software, you can slow the music down (without 
  changing the pitch). Or you can change the pitch without changing the 
  speed of the music, in case you want to change the key or just make 
  it a little bit flat or sharp (say, if someone wants to accompany the 
  recording and their instrument is tuned a little flat or sharp).

  * It's an excuse to buy that laptop computer you wanted anyway.

  * Possiblly less stuff to lug around (no cassette player, no CD 
  player, not necessarily any CDs).

  * People will ooh and aah at your high-tech setup.

  Disadvantages:

  * People will think you're just trying to impress them with your 
  high-tech setup.

  * It's just an excuse to buy that computer you don't really need.

  * More computer crap to buy.

  * More computer crap to learn.


  Just last Saturday I taught Ashford Anniversary to a group of new 
  dancers. They understood the dance, but just couldn't react in time. 
  So I slowed the CD down a little and they were able to do the dance.

  Disclosure: I'm a computer junkie.



  -- 
  "Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies
  Gary Shapiro <http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/>

--Boundary_(ID_scCjO07w9gUDjJJ7b4ElLQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Arial Narrow">Gary,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Arial Narrow">You're right on (and I'm not 
particularly a computer junkie).&nbsp; Using even a cheap(er) used laptop works, 
so long as you don't load it up (I use a 233 Dell that I bought on Ebay for &lt; 
$500&nbsp;and it works fine).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Arial Narrow">One other advantage embedded in 
your list of benefits:&nbsp; Once the files are recorded (I include 5 seconds of 
silence as a lead-in and 15 seconds at the end to allow for starting and 
stopping) and saved on the hard drive, I can create an evening's dance card in 
only the time it takes to drag and drop them into the MP3 player.&nbsp; The 
transitions during the dance are simple--no fumbling around with multiple tapes 
and/or CDs.&nbsp; Each piece of music is perfectly cued and ready to go in the 
proper order.&nbsp;And, the playlist is printable so that you have a hard copy 
to post/distribute at the dance.&nbsp;&nbsp;Additionally the playlist file is 
labeled and saved so that I have a record of the dances we used in a particular 
evening, which makes it easy to keep track of where we've been and what dances 
in our repertoire may be over or under used.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Arial Narrow">A bit more technical benefit (with 
the correct software you described) is the ability to create seamless loops, 
extending the length of recorded music to allow for specific needs.&nbsp; This 
software essentially does for music what a word processor does for text--you can 
cut, paste, format, change or duplicate.&nbsp; Example: I have lots of recorded 
music for 3Co sets that is only played thru on the original recording one 
time.&nbsp; I have looped these dances so that I now have multiple passes 
through the music to allow for longer dance time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Arial Narrow">Finally, let me strongly resonate 
with the ability to slow the dances down (you folks with live music have this as 
an inherent advantage).&nbsp; My teaching experience has been exactly the same 
as yours.&nbsp; Newbies often struggle not so much with the complexity of the 
steps in a given dance, but the speed with which they come.&nbsp; The ability to 
slow&nbsp;down pre-recorded music&nbsp;by 20% gives them the time they need to 
become familiar with the dance, at which time full-speed&nbsp;can be resumed 
with a much higher satisfaction and success level.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Arial Narrow">McDjr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A href="mailto:garyes-AT-
pobox.com" title=garyes-AT-
pobox.com>Gary D. Shapiro</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
  href="mailto:ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" 
  title=ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 04, 2001 4:50 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: CD players for sound 
  system</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>At 10:09 AM -0400, on 6/4/01, Carolyn Worthing 
  wrote:<BR>&gt;Our group has used cassettes for many of our weekly dances and 
  slowly are<BR>&gt;adding CDs to our collection.<BR>&gt;The CD player we have 
  plugged into our sound system is a basic level discman<BR>&gt;type and we are 
  now wanting to upgrade.<BR>&gt;Any equipment recommendations out 
  there?<BR><BR>Consider using a laptop or notebook 
  computer.<BR><BR>Advantages:<BR><BR>* You can convert your tapes to computer 
  sound files (e.g., MP3).<BR><BR>* You can play CDs on the computer's CD player 
  and/or convert CD <BR>tracks to computer sound files.<BR><BR>* Using the right 
  software, you can slow the music down (without <BR>changing the pitch). Or you 
  can change the pitch without changing the <BR>speed of the music, in case you 
  want to change the key or just make <BR>it a little bit flat or sharp (say, if 
  someone wants to accompany the <BR>recording and their instrument is tuned a 
  little flat or sharp).<BR><BR>* It's an excuse to buy that laptop computer you 
  wanted anyway.<BR><BR>* Possiblly less stuff to lug around (no cassette 
  player, no CD <BR>player, not necessarily any CDs).<BR><BR>* People will ooh 
  and aah at your high-tech setup.<BR><BR>Disadvantages:<BR><BR>* People will 
  think you're just trying to impress them with your <BR>high-tech 
  setup.<BR><BR>* It's just an excuse to buy that computer you don't really 
  need.<BR><BR>* More computer crap to buy.<BR><BR>* More computer crap to 
  learn.<BR><BR><BR>Just last Saturday I taught Ashford Anniversary to a group 
  of new <BR>dancers. They understood the dance, but just couldn't react in 
  time. <BR>So I slowed the CD down a little and they were able to do the 
  dance.<BR><BR>Disclosure: I'm a computer junkie.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>"Come 
  dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies<BR>Gary Shapiro &lt;<A 
  href="http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/">http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/</A>&gt;</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_scCjO07w9gUDjJJ7b4ElLQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:58:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 20:37:15 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: copyright and fair use discussion
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010604.205646.-1868247.2.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ok--I'm sorry, I was off-list for a while during the discussion of this
topic, but I think this is still helpful/interesting:

On 6/1, Andrew wrote  "The question of "collecting" is very prevalent
among Contras,
where a caller likes a dance called by someone else and writes
it out in a notebook or on a card. "

The last time that the Late Great Ted Sanella came to Pittsburgh, he was
painstakingly careful to announce the name and the writer of every dance
AND he said several times during the course of the dance that if anyone
was out there "notating" this dance, he would like that person to come up
& copy his card with the correct information AND NOT ONLY THAT, but as I
was out there shyly writing down a notation at the break and not doing
what he asked, he actually came up to me (and recognized me from long
ago, but  that's not really relevant) and invited/insisted that I copy
down the dance FROM HIS CARD and with all the correct author/title info,
etc.  This was both gratifying/flattering/humbling but also clearly meant
that he was interested in making sure that the recipient of the "oral"
information really knew whence it came.  Many callers of English dances
similarly will say that dance X comes from publication Y, but not,
perhaps, with such insistence on the correct degree of recognition (and,
incidentally, stressing that the recipient purchase the book from which
the quoted material comes from).  Anyway, I thought his example was a
very gentlemanly and fair way of handling the oral transmission of
printed material.

Allison
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Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:59:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 20:21:02 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyright? (oh no no no not again!)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010604.205646.-1868247.1.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jon recently wrote ...

For example, there's a wonderful novel called "Ahab's Wife," by Sena
Jeter
Naslund, that's derived from "Moby Dick" by Herman Melville.  "Moby Dick"
is in the public domain, but "Ahab's Wife" is subject to copyright; if it
weren't, nobody would publish it and nobody would get to read it and that
would be a Bad Thing.  


Oh, dear, I'm sorrry to reintroduce this topic:  I was off-line for a
week due to a horrible computer virus that required a complete lobotomy,
but I now note Jon's comment above, and then wonder if the recent
publicity surrounding the "continuation" or the "re-telling" of the "Gone
with the Wind" saga from the African-American POV (the novel in question
was suspended pre-publication due to flack from M. Mitchell's estate and
has now, I believe, been permitted) changes his mind any.

I have for many years been a member of a Jane Austen Society--her puny 6
novels have now had the distinction of having approx. **70 **
re-tellings, either from different POVs, or as continuations (as when the
children of some protagonists of one novel encounter those of another,
ec.) and I have to say that I think the issue of copyright tends to be
more of an issue when/if there is a is a 1) living heir or 2) an active
estate, jealously (and appropriately, according to the estate interests)
guarding the interests of the testator.   And just today I see that they
are going to produce more "Narnia" books without a) Mr. Lewis' consent or
b) the Christian content that is so integral to those works whether you
like it or not.  Pretty soon we'll have a continuation of the Lord of the
Rings and then civilization will be in the trashcan! 

But, since I was off-line for so long and the topic had already died
down, I only wish to comment on this issue, not really to re-introduce
it. Anyone who really wants to discuss it should probably contact me
directly, rather than the list.

Allison Thompson


http://www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress
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Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:04:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:04:26 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Copyright?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b741e06efd80-AT-
[140.186.54.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010604.205646.-1868247.1.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>

Civilization's already in the trashcan.

Living heir?  What about living creator?
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:17:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rwinslowdance-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At international folk dancing in St. Louis in the 1960’s, we did two English 
dances, Hole in the Wall and Picking Up Sticks.  I’ve since learned that this 
is the standard repertoire for some other international groups.  These dances 
did not move me to search for the nearest English dance community and I had 
to wait another 12 years to discover ECD.
 
Which 3 dances would you suggest to help international dancers fall in love 
with ECD?  Think instant excitement and intoxication.  Yummy music, 
preferably available on a current recording.  Easy for someone with little or 
no ECD experience to teach from written instructions to a group with some 
dance experience.  
 
My first thought -Take a dance. 
Not too many places to get lost.  Dancers always mirror their partner.  High 
energy recording by Bare Necessities.

Rachel-  now in Philadelphia




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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>At international folk dancing in St. Louis in the 1960’s, we did two English 
<BR>dances, Hole in the Wall and Picking Up Sticks.  I’ve since learned that this 
<BR>is the standard repertoire for some other international groups.  These dances 
<BR>did not move me to search for the nearest English dance community and I had 
<BR>to wait another 12 years to discover ECD.
<BR> 
<BR>Which 3 dances would you suggest to help international dancers fall in love 
<BR>with ECD?  Think instant excitement and intoxication.  Yummy music, 
<BR>preferably available on a current recording.  Easy for someone with little or 
<BR>no ECD experience to teach from written instructions to a group with some 
<BR>dance experience.  
<BR> 
<BR>My first thought -Take a dance. 
<BR>Not too many places to get lost.  Dancers always mirror their partner.  High 
<BR>energy recording by Bare Necessities.
<BR>
<BR>Rachel- &nbsp;now in Philadelphia
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_dxWE76rNwEdi86+yzTIzHQ)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:28:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:28:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rwinslowdance-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <60.f4bd981.284d9db0-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Re: CD players
Do any of them have speed control?
Peter Ogle

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Re: CD players
<BR>Do any of them have speed control?
<BR>Peter Ogle</FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_iBN6zpNEH7zmVTo17JkvJw)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 20:30:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:30:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: NY Playford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0106042328390.6016-100000-AT-
panix6.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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   I have video captures from the New York ball available at
http://www.ecben.net/ball2001.shtml

    Since Westhost will not let me use RealMedia files, I resorted to AVI
with "MPEG-4 compression" to get them to reasonable size. When I try
accessing them myself, it just pops up Windoze Media Player to handle
them.


Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.ecben.net/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:28:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 05:28:40 +0000
From: peter groblicki <pgroblic-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <F1774A2DreBBsQwY6YH00001d24-AT-
hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Recently I inquired about cassette and CD players with variable speed on 
both rec.folk-dancing and the contra sound forum.  Most replies encouraged 
the conversion to mini-disk or MP3.  The possibility of programming a 
multi-disk CD changer with a evening's program was also mentioned.

www.supremeaudio.com offers a large selection of variable speed cassette and 
CD players.

Converting the music to mini-disk or mp3 would not work out in my situation. 
  I have found a player whose specifications seem ideal for my application.  
It is a variable speed cassette / CD "boom box" made by Califone.  It has a 
built-in 10 watt amp and speakers, as well as line outputs for connection to 
a PA system.  It's reasonably priced at around $200.  It's a model 2455AV 
and more info is at www.califone.com/2400av.pdf.

Has anyone used one of these?  Do you have any info on reliability and 
convenience of operation?

Thanks -- Pete

>Re: CD players
>Do any of them have speed control?
>Peter Ogle

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:54:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:50:23 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <005d01c0ed83$6a9014e0$324e4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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References: <60.f4bd981.284d9db0-AT-
aol.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Rwinslowdance-AT-
aol.com>

<<Re: CD players
Do any of them have speed control?
Peter Ogle>>

Usually only pro-audio type players, designed for radio stations, DJs, etc..
Tascam, Sony, and Denon all make such. Numark probably does too.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:00:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:56:01 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <008f01c0ed84$33b46420$324e4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
References: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Rwinslowdance-AT-
aol.com>

<<At international folk dancing in St. Louis in the 1960â?Ts, we did two
English
dances, Hole in the Wall and Picking Up Sticks. Iâ?Tve since learned that
this
is the standard repertoire for some other international groups. These
dances
did not move me to search for the nearest English dance community and I had
to wait another 12 years to discover ECD.

Which 3 dances would you suggest to help international dancers fall in love
with ECD? Think instant excitement and intoxication. Yummy music,
preferably available on a current recording. Easy for someone with little
or
no ECD experience to teach from written instructions to a group with some
dance experience. >>

Hi Rachel:

I think Mount Hills is another good candidate...great tune, wonderful
recording available (from Pyewackett, on their classic "7 to Midnight" tape,
sold by CDSS still I think) and eminently danceable. If you have a live
band, even better, as it affords endless opportunities for musical
improvisation.

Peace,
Paul

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:26:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:23:44 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p04330100b74230a319c2-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <60.f4bd981.284d9db0-AT-
aol.com> <005d01c0ed83$6a9014e0$324e4b0c-AT-
paulstam>

Keep in mind when looking at variable-speed tape and CD players that 
many/most do not jump through the hoops required to keep the pitch 
the same. So if you slow the music down by 10%, a 440 ("American 
Standard" middle A) becomes 396 (close to G). Many of these players 
are in fact advertised as having "variable pitch."

Not that playing something at a different pitch is necessarily a 
problem. Perhaps I only think it's a problem to rationalize buying 
the variable speed/variable pitch software, when free variable pitch 
software is available.
--
Gary "oops, better send in my Mendocino balance" Shapiro
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 01:02:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:57:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K4E0W2SOR08X7WSG-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com>

Paul wrote:

> I think Mount Hills is another good candidate...great tune, wonderful
> recording available (from Pyewackett, on their classic "7 to Midnight" tape,
> sold by CDSS still I think) and eminently danceable. If you have a live
> band, even better, as it affords endless opportunities for musical
> improvisation.

I don't think CDSS carries "7 to Midnight" these days (but am not right now
in a position to fire up my web browser and find out).

Also, opinions vary on "Mount Hills."  Some really excellent musicians have
let me know that they don't like the tune much and don't feel they can do that
much with it.  (Piano and fiddle, if it matters.)  Me, I like it because it's
easy to pick out convincingly on recorder, but I'm such a marginal musician
that I not only don't mind if it sounds the same twice in a row, I'm actually
surprised and pleased.

Good dance, though.  

In the same vein of of easy teach, good tune, satisfying even without perfect
execution and distinctly different from non-ECD, I'd recommend "The
Accomplished Maid."  Don't know if that's recorded anywhere, but I think most
of the Fallibroome tunes have been covered.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 03:01:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:04:56 +0100
From: graham-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B1CAE45.2D4E-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com> <01K4E0W2SOR08X7WSG-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Alan,

I would be interested to know where "most of the Fallibroome tunes have
been covered"? As far as I am aware "The Beau's Retreat" and "Wild Thyme
plays Fallibroome", available as a double cassette "The Wild Thyme
Fallibroome Collection", are the only recordings of Fallibroome. A few
of the tunes, about 15, are recorded elsewhere, notably Marshall Barron
et al on "Step Stately".

These then cover about 41 of over 100 dances in the Fallibroome
collection!!

Graham
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 03:23:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 03:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K4E5SM4PZI8X7ZMS-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com> <01K4E0W2SOR08X7WSG-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Graham wrote:


> I would be interested to know where "most of the Fallibroome tunes have
> been covered"? As far as I am aware "The Beau's Retreat" and "Wild Thyme
> plays Fallibroome", available as a double cassette "The Wild Thyme
> Fallibroome Collection", are the only recordings of Fallibroome. A few
> of the tunes, about 15, are recorded elsewhere, notably Marshall Barron
> et al on "Step Stately".

> These then cover about 41 of over 100 dances in the Fallibroome
> collection!!

I clearly wrote without knowing what I was talking about.  I think I saw
listings of the Wild Thyme stuff and thought they were four different 
cassettes and more inclusive  than they evidently are.  I haven't heard them.

(Do they cover "The Accomplished Maid"?)

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 06:03:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:07:42 +0100
From: graham-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B1CD99E.5ECE-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com> <01K4E0W2SOR08X7WSG-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <01K4E5SM4PZI8X7ZMS-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Alan,

No, "The Accomplished Maid" is not covered.

Graham
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:51:29 PST
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyright? (oh no no no not again!)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106050711290.28767-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Allison M Thompson wrote:

> Jon recently wrote ...
> 
> For example, there's a wonderful novel called "Ahab's Wife," by Sena
> Jeter
> Naslund, that's derived from "Moby Dick" by Herman Melville.  "Moby Dick"
> is in the public domain, but "Ahab's Wife" is subject to copyright; if it
> weren't, nobody would publish it and nobody would get to read it and that
> would be a Bad Thing.  
> 
> 
> Oh, dear, I'm sorrry to reintroduce this topic:  I was off-line for a
> week due to a horrible computer virus that required a complete lobotomy,
> but I now note Jon's comment above, and then wonder if the recent
> publicity surrounding the "continuation" or the "re-telling" of the "Gone
> with the Wind" saga from the African-American POV (the novel in question
> was suspended pre-publication due to flack from M. Mitchell's estate and
> has now, I believe, been permitted) changes his mind any.

I haven't changed my mind about whether it would be a Bad Thing if "Ahab's
Wife" had never been published, if that's what you're asking.  I'm very
glad it was published, because I think it's a good book that deserved to be
published.  I'm also inclined to believe that "The Wind Done Gone" should
be published, although for different reasons: it's because, based on what
I've read, I agree with the Court of Appeals finding that it makes
legitimate fair use of the material from "Gone With the Wind."  However, I
may change my mind about that after I read the book.

> I have for many years been a member of a Jane Austen Society--her puny 6
> novels have now had the distinction of having approx. **70 **
> re-tellings, either from different POVs, or as continuations (as when the
> children of some protagonists of one novel encounter those of another,
> ec.) and I have to say that I think the issue of copyright tends to be
> more of an issue when/if there is a is a 1) living heir or 2) an active
> estate, jealously (and appropriately, according to the estate interests)
> guarding the interests of the testator.   And just today I see that they
> are going to produce more "Narnia" books without a) Mr. Lewis' consent or
> b) the Christian content that is so integral to those works whether you
> like it or not.  Pretty soon we'll have a continuation of the Lord of the
> Rings and then civilization will be in the trashcan! 

The real distinction is between works that are in the public domain and
works that aren't; it has nothing to do with the activity of the estate or
the livingness of the heir.  Copyrights aren't permanent; they last for a
very specific period of time.  The basic rule under the Copyright Act of
1976 (as amended) is that copyrights expire 70 years after the author's
death, but there are some exceptions to this, and there are some
appallingly arcane rules for computing the duration of copyrights in works
published before the 1976 Act went into effect -- which, just to further
complicate matters, was in 1978.  But the basic deal is that the author's
exclusive rights are only protected by the copyright laws for a limited
time.  After the copyright expires, the work is in the public domain, which
means that anyone who wants to can copy it, perform it, create derivative
works based on it, and so forth.  This is why, for example, Leonard
Bernstein and Steven Sondheim could produce "West Side Story" without
permission from the Shakespeare estate.  Whether that's how things should
be or not is another matter, but that's how things are.

> But, since I was off-line for so long and the topic had already died
> down, I only wish to comment on this issue, not really to re-introduce
> it. Anyone who really wants to discuss it should probably contact me
> directly, rather than the list.

You put me in a somewhat awkward position here.  I'll be happy to answer
any questions by private email that I'm asked by private email, and indeed
I'm involved in several such private discussions that have spun off from
this public one.  But I don't think it's entirely fair to ask me a question
in public and then specify that I have to answer it in private.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:38:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyright?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106050936380.29077-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

> Civilization's already in the trashcan.
> 
> Living heir?  What about living creator?

My father, who has had the dubious distinction of living long enough to see
some of his early works become public domain, would agree with you
wholeheartedly.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:48:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:48:17 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: copy rights and wrongs
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F118c3JPv4ucOK00009ac4-AT-
hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As long as the topic of copyrights and such is being discussed: does anyone 
see a difficulty with the coincident discussion of using recorded music for 
public (i.e., dance) events? For example, assuming that the original 
recordings were purchased in some routine way for personal enjoyment: should 
they then be re-used for public events?

Let us take a hypothetical dance band called Armadillos as an example. They 
perform at the Frostbite Falls annual Playford ball, and sell a copy of 
their smash hit cd to a tech savvy member of the local Frozen Wastes 
Playford Society. Who then splices (well, whatever) her favorite tracks, 
along with some other favorites (let's say, tracks from the smash hit 
recordings of the unlamented NYC group, the Earthworms) into a master cd for 
use at their weekly dances etc. Permission to do this has neither been asked 
for nor granted, explicitly nor implicitly. The cd doesn't have printed on 
it, "use me as you will."

Is this a practice that people propose to employ? Or are people using 
recordings acquired with the specific understanding of the performers/ 
publishers that they will be used for public events?

I admit I find it troubling, and not only because my wife is a professional 
musician. (Though for the record she doesn't play country/ contra etc. She 
has played the drum for sword dances, but without compensation beyond thanks 
of a grateful husband.)

Steve Corrsin
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:03:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:03:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyright? (oh no no no not again!)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010605170314.69540.qmail-AT-
web13609.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net> wrote:

>  ... author's  exclusive rights are only protected by the copyright
> laws for a limited time.  After the copyright expires, the work is
> in the public domain, which
> means that anyone who wants to can copy it, perform it, create
> derivative
> works based on it, and so forth.  This is why, for example, Leonard
> Bernstein and Steven Sondheim could produce "West Side Story"
> without
> permission from the Shakespeare estate.  Whether that's how things
> should be or not is another matter, but that's how things are.

So creative work, like living progeny, is only under the exclusive
control of the author for a limited time.  Once a creation is sent
out into the world, the world, willy-nilly the author's desire, will
have an effect on it.

Or, as W.H. Auden put it: "The words of a dead man/ Are modified in
the guts of the living."

=====
Don't blame me, I voted with the majority.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:26:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106051119150.29077-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
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On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Also, opinions vary on "Mount Hills."  Some really excellent musicians have
> let me know that they don't like the tune much and don't feel they can do that
> much with it.

I'm surprised to hear that.  I think it's a great tune and I wish the dance
were done more often.  The only time I ever get to play it is when I'm
playing for one of the Renaissance Faire groups that does a different
dance, "Uffington Horse," to the tune, and it's not as much fun to play at
the speed they like to dance it.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:38:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: copy rights and wrongs
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106051039260.29077-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:

> As long as the topic of copyrights and such is being discussed: does anyone 
> see a difficulty with the coincident discussion of using recorded music for 
> public (i.e., dance) events? For example, assuming that the original 
> recordings were purchased in some routine way for personal enjoyment: should 
> they then be re-used for public events?

Recordings protected by copyright laws (which is usually indicated by the
circle-P symbol) may be legally played in public if and only if the person
or organization playing them has purchased a license to do so from one of
the licensing organizations, ASCAP (the American Society of Composers,
Authors, and Publishers) or BMI (Broadcast Music, Inc., although ASCAP
diehards claim it really stands for Bad Music Instead).  The idea is that
the copyright holders join one of the licensing organizations, and the
organizations then collect the license fees and split them up among their
members.  The formula by which they calculate which member gets how much is
quite complicated, and tends to be very closely tied in with how much radio
air play a given piece has gotten; this is a bit unfair to people who write
the sort of music that doesn't get played on the radio very much, but it's
how the system works.

For a very thorough treatment of the subject of performance licensing, I
recommend ASCAP's FAQ page: <http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensing.html>.

The same rules apply to public live performances of copyrighted music,
incidentally.  This means that producers of dance events really ought to
acquire ASCAP/BMI licenses if their bands are going to play any original
tunes; to the best of my knowledge, no organization that produces contra or
ECD events has ever done so, but they should.  I heard rumors a few years
back that some contra got busted because the band played "Ashokan
Farewell"; Jay Ungar, who wrote it, probably wouldn't have bothered, but
he'd assigned the copyright when the tune was used as the theme music for
the Civil War series, and the new copyright holder (PBS, probably) was
somewhat less sanguine about having its copyright infringed.  Whether this
is true or not, this sort of thing is always a possibility, and the
licenses aren't all that expensive.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:52:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:52:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <44.e71b375.284eae9e-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 6/5/01 2:27:00 PM, jberger-AT-
monitor.net writes:

<< > Also, opinions vary on "Mount Hills."  Some really excellent musicians 
have
> let me know that they don't like the tune much and don't feel they can do 
that
> much with it.

I'm surprised to hear that.  I think it's a great tune and I wish the dance
were done more often.  >>

I'll throw in my vote with those who don't like it. I don't enjoy playing it, 
and I feel the dance is as generic as they come. Can't figure out what some 
see in it. 

BTW, apologies for the multiple posts about the Balto ball - my e-mail (AOL) 
did it - honest - I kept re-sending it because AOL said it hadn't gone out!

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:10:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 18:09:53 -0500
From: Roger Diggle <diggle-AT-
bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: copy rights and wrongs
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010605230953.KUDZ29822.lowblow-AT-
[204.71.145.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Modern Western square dance callers were quite surly about this 
about 10 years ago.  They use a lot of recorded music - much of 
it more modern than ours - and ASCAP/BMI were knocking on their 
various doors asking for the royalties.  They use a lot of pop 
tunes, and the records in their cases made those tunes pretty 
easy to identify.  

On the other hand, I can imagine the fate of some poor ASCAP 
snoop showing up at the local contra dance and discovering that 
there is no sheet music, only two of the musicians know the name 
of the tune they're playing, only one of them knows that it came 
from a field recording of Dolph Millarsson taped three weeks 
before he died.  Nobody knows where Dolph learned it.  As the 
snoop goes back to the office and tries to discover the genesis 
of the other tunes he taped the band playing that night, all but 
three are are unknown or in the public domain, and those three 
were written by band members, who are overjoyed that anyone is 
playing them at all.  Not a very good return on three days of 
work,  not to mention that he broke the law himself making an 
unauthorized recording.

Not that this means we don't have legal obligation to pay 
royalties.  A big problem for the ASCAP folks, as I see it, is 
in the very formula that gives most of the royalty money to the 
people whose music is broadcast.  Most folk artists are 
supporting each other better by providing venues for each other - 
and putting up with (and even buying!) each other's music at 
them - than they ever could by climbing on that ASCAP/BMI 
bandwagon.  So, much of the folk music world treats performance 
of copywrought material as a sort of black market, whether they 
understand it that way or not.

Roger Diggle


Jon Berger wrote:  

>Recordings protected by copyright laws (which is usually indicated by the
>circle-P symbol) may be legally played in public if and only if the person
>or organization playing them has purchased a license to do so from one of
>the licensing organizations, ASCAP (the American Society of Composers,
>Authors, and Publishers) or BMI (Broadcast Music, Inc., although ASCAP
>diehards claim it really stands for Bad Music Instead).  The idea is that
>the copyright holders join one of the licensing organizations, and the
>organizations then collect the license fees and split them up among their
>members.  The formula by which they calculate which member gets how much is
>quite complicated, and tends to be very closely tied in with how much radio
>air play a given piece has gotten; this is a bit unfair to people who write
>the sort of music that doesn't get played on the radio very much, but it's
>how the system works.
>
>For a very thorough treatment of the subject of performance licensing, I
>recommend ASCAP's FAQ page: <http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensing.html>.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:20:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 19:17:37 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: copy rights and wrongs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b74318ec716d-AT-
[140.186.55.207]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106051039260.29077-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>

>ECD events has ever done so, but they should.  I heard rumors a few years
>back that some contra got busted because the band played "Ashokan
>Farewell"; Jay Ungar, who wrote it, probably wouldn't have bothered, but
>he'd assigned the copyright when the tune was used as the theme music for
>the Civil War series, and the new copyright holder (PBS, probably) was
>somewhat less sanguine about having its copyright infringed.

Jeez.  Jay did that???  Who gave him that bad piece of advice?
-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.beetlecat.com/gft-pics/ef-notes.htm
http://www.beetlecat.org/results/99champs.html
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook
landscape at:
http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 18:56:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:34:42 -0400
From: pam-AT-
tedcrane.com (Pamela Goddard)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "Ashokan Farewell" copyright
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <01060521344203-AT-
tedcrane.com>
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In regards recent conversation:

>>ECD events has ever done so, but they should.  I heard rumors a few years
>>back that some contra got busted because the band played "Ashokan
>>Farewell"; Jay Ungar, who wrote it, probably wouldn't have bothered, but
>>he'd assigned the copyright when the tune was used as the theme music for
>>the Civil War series, and the new copyright holder (PBS, probably) was
>>somewhat less sanguine about having its copyright infringed.

>Jeez.  Jay did that???  Who gave him that bad piece of advice?

I just happend to be talking with someone here in central NY
about that tune & Jay's royalties... I don't believe that he's signed off
copyright to anyone else.  The info I have is that he's still getting
some small amount of money (2/10 of a cent, or something like that)
each time it's commercially used. (And it gets used for lots of odd things,
such as a marching band routine somewhere in this great US of A.)
He's in the fortunate position of being a folk musician 
who's actually making a good living from a tune
he wrote... was able to send his daughter to college on it.

The Ithaca dance (contra) has occasionally been hasseled by ASCAP/BMI
about royalty issues.  We have a clause in our musician's contract
to cover the question.  Considering the money (or lack of) involved,
our conversations with ASCAP/BMI have been along the lines of
"it's not really worth your time".  If there wasn't a certain level of
"fair use" understanding & generosity in our dance communities,
we would be limiting the vibrancy of the art.  One of the things I
hold most dear is the level of generosity and sharing that is
so integral to contra and English country dance.

That being said, I have similar concerns to Steve C's about the use
of recorded music.  It's one of the reasons that I insist on useing
live musicians for our English dances... even if it means we
don't dance as frequently.  I'd rather support local musicians
than use recordings in ways that don't necessarily match 
the artist's vision.  I understand that some dances have to make other 
choices... and that some recordings were designed to be used 
for dances.  I have strong feelings about supporting artists by
purchasing their recordings (rather than boot-legging a copy),
and encouraging local musicians to develop their feel for the tunes.
So this is the choice/compromise we've made here.

-Pamela

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 20:29:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:26:18 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010605.232621.-748265.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
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I've really enjoyed reading the discussion about copyright... add my vote
of thanks especially to Jon for his thorough and clear explanations of
the law.

The "problem" seems to me to be that the law doesn't appear to
distinguish between "supplantive" copying and occasional use of a portion
of a work in non-commercial settings.  For example, Gary Roodman
publishes books of his dances.  If someone photocopies his books and
sells them or even gives them away, I believe he would/should rightfully
seek legal redress under copyright law. But what about putting one of the
dances from his book on a Playford Ball program, and posting the
instructions on the Ball web site, or in a booklet sent to registrants? 
I know that Gary doesn't publish for the money (though he certainly ought
to recover his costs and make every dollar he can from his considerable
effort), but because he's proud of his creations and pleased that others
who share his love of ECD want to do his dances.  He and most other
choreographers I know publish mainly to get their stuff into the
community, and would be disappointed if their dances could not be done
because groups could not schedule them for special events because the
copyright law prohibits posting/copying/reprinting the instructions.

Jon, would a statement appearing in such publications along the lines of
"Users of this publication are granted permission to duplicate the
instructions for one or more individual dances as an aid to performance
of the dance(s)." clear the path and solve the problem without having to
ask our elected representatives to change the law?

Similar thinking for CD's.  "The copyright holder(s) grant permission to
users to make single copies of one or more individual tracks for the
purpose of teaching and performing the dances."  Does that work?  [BTW,
ECD-list readers might be interested to know that for all the Bare
Necessities Boston Centre CD's I've produced, standard royalties have
been paid to composers or to their estates for original dance tunes under
copyright, at significant cost to the Boston Centre.  So we've been
playing by the rules.]

These statements or their more proper equivalents would allow the ECD
community to use these works as we all (including the authors, I'm fairly
sure) would like, while protecting authors' rights and income.  I'm happy
to have ECD leaders copy selected tracks from our MGM/Fried Herman CD
into MP3 files for convenience of teaching, but if some director of a
"major motion picture" picks up a track from the CD and the movie
soundtrack becomes a huge hit, I certainly would like my share of the
royalties (though my "daughter" happens to be a mutt, and would not be
accepted at most colleges).

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, and Caller who often copies things wrong
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-
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ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:04:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:04:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CD players for sound system
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010606040415.28721.qmail-AT-
web3304.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- peter groblicki <pgroblic-AT-
hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have found a player whose specifications seem ideal for my
> application. It is a variable speed cassette / CD "boom box"
> made by Califone. It has a built-in 10 watt amp and speakers,
> as well as line outputs for connection to a PA system. It's
> reasonably priced at around $200. It's a model 2455AV 
> and more info is at www.califone.com/2400av.pdf.
> 
> Has anyone used one of these?  Do you have any info on
> reliability and convenience of operation?

The Scandinavian performing group that I dance with has a
kareoke boombox that we use. It gives us the option of cassettes
or CD's and it gives us a microphone for announcing. The
cassette has variable pitch on it. We use it weekly at
rehearsals and occassionally for performances that don't have
any other sound system available.

Andy in Portland OR

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:31:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:30:02 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b743588f672d-AT-
[140.186.54.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010605.232621.-748265.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>

Basically, as I understand it, the US copyright law provides the 
creator protection from infringment up to $150,000 and legal fees if 
the work is registered with the US Copyright office.  Barring that, 
the protection on a practical basis only extends to the actual costs 
of the creation, in my case of the piece of film containing the image 
in question.

Creators of intellectual property grant licenses for usage on any 
terms they can negotiate.  So a writer or composer or illustrator can 
grant a license for a usage like you're discussing here for whatever 
sum of money the buyer and seller can agree upon.

However, contracts are understood to be binding only when written 
out, dated and signed by the affected parties, so blanket public 
"contracts" or permissions, like the one you've mentioned, I believe, 
wouldn't really permit what they appear to permit, at least I don't 
think that would stand up in a court.

There is a slippery section of the copyright law pertaining to 
something called "fair use" which is often construed to mean 
something more along the lines of what you want.  But as the notion 
of "fair use" gets drawn into courts, it gets refined, and the 
refinements are reducing it to ever smaller and smaller bits of the 
copyrighted work.  Of course, the creators want to restrict fair use 
to quoting a couple of lines, or a section of a paragraph while the 
big publishing firms want to construe it to mean republishing 
reworked consolidations of their magazines (The National Geographic 
Society is embroiled in one of those) and their newspapers (The New 
York Times, which owns The Boston Globe and has created a database of 
everything published and sells the articles and photographs, is up 
before the Supreme Court right now for that).

So the penalty for infringing a copyright depends entirely on whether 
the creator registered the work.  If the creator did, the infringer 
usually just pays up.  If the creator didn't, the creator has 90 days 
from the first publication of the infringing work to get the 
protection of registration.

In effect this means that unless Gary and Peter Barnes and Bare 
Necessities and all those folks we love to play with registered their 
publications and recordings, we don't have a whole lot to get 
concerned about legally.

BUT

there are ethical considerations, may of which have been brought up 
here.  And we can subscribe to those considerations or not as our 
ethics leads us.

And you can be certain that some big corporation which wishes to use 
a tune or dance or illustration, or image, or story, or doctoral 
dissertation or any other piece of intellectual property, is not 
going to care about ethical considerations.

So if you're a creator, register your copyright and then pick your 
fights, and if you're a community dance leader, buy the CD or 
instruction booklet, and when you meet the dance creator, or some 
member of the band, make certain they understand that you enjoy what 
they've given, and check with them about ways you may disseminate it. 
And if you want to use one of Gary's dances, or Charles' or Colin's 
or Fried's or Pat's in your ball program, do them the courtesy of 
checking with them first.

Then honor their preferences.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:22:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:22:07 -0500
From: Roger Diggle <diggle-AT-
bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010606052208.MFRV9030.chruser-AT-
[204.71.145.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Emily L. Ferguson wrote:  

>   ...  Of course, the creators want to restrict fair use 
>to quoting a couple of lines, or a section of a paragraph while the 
>big publishing firms want to construe it to mean republishing 
>reworked consolidations of their magazines (The National Geographic 
>Society is embroiled in one of those) and their newspapers (The New 
>York Times, which owns The Boston Globe and has created a database of 
>everything published and sells the articles and photographs, is up 
>before the Supreme Court right now for that).


If anyone is interested in more information about the Times/Globe 
suit, I just listened to a very good "radio" program that Christopher 
Lydon has in his web archive.  It's at:
http://www.nesm.net/lydon/
look for the program that was webcast on March 27, 2001.

Roger Diggle
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:39:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:34:47 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <006101c0ee52$c86a1be0$392b4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
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References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106051119150.29077-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Also, opinions vary on "Mount Hills."  Some really excellent musicians
have
> let me know that they don't like the tune much and don't feel they can do
that
> much with it.

<<I'm surprised to hear that.  I think it's a great tune and I wish the
dance
were done more often.  The only time I ever get to play it is when I'm
playing for one of the Renaissance Faire groups that does a different
dance, "Uffington Horse," to the tune, and it's not as much fun to play at
the speed they like to dance it.>>

And we could play it for half an hour and not get tired, nor repeat
ourselves. People differ, yes?

Peace,
Paul



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:48:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106052250580.29077-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

> Basically, as I understand it, the US copyright law provides the 
> creator protection from infringment up to $150,000 and legal fees if 
> the work is registered with the US Copyright office.  Barring that, 
> the protection on a practical basis only extends to the actual costs 
> of the creation, in my case of the piece of film containing the image 
> in question.

That's somewhat inaccurate: the damages which can be collected in the case
of an unregistered copyright are the actual damages suffered by the
plaintiff due to the infringement.  This has nothing to do with the costs
of the creation; this has to do with the amount of money the author could
have made but was deprived of making due to the infringement.  As a
practical matter, this means any money the infringer made by exploiting the
infringed work, though there can be other approaches to computing damages.
So, if I spend $1,000,000 making a movie, and someone makes an unauthorized
copy, then he's infringed my copyright, but if he didn't sell any copies
and the market for my movie is unaffected, then my damages are zero, not
$1,000,000.

Someone who wants to enforce an unregistered copyright has another
potential angle of approach: he can seek an injunction, a court order
telling the infringer to stop infringing.  This is a real possibility and
shouldn't be discounted; it's common practice, for example, with infringed
web sites, since a lot of people don't bother registering copyrights in
their web sites.  I do agree, though, with the general notion that
infringing an unregistered copyright is a lot safer than infringing a
registered one, for those who like to play the odds.  The statutory damages
aren't the scary part, since the judge has the discretion to reduce them to
zero and might well do so if the infringement wasn't too egregious.  The
attorneys' fees are the scary part.  You'd be amazed how high those fees
can get when the guy your client just beat in court has to pay them.

> Creators of intellectual property grant licenses for usage on any 
> terms they can negotiate.  So a writer or composer or illustrator can 
> grant a license for a usage like you're discussing here for whatever 
> sum of money the buyer and seller can agree upon.

I agree with this.  Moreover, an author can grant a license to use the work
for one purpose (for example, teaching and performing at public dances) and
not another (for example, use in TV adaptations of Jane Austen novels made
by production companies with lots of money to throw around).

> However, contracts are understood to be binding only when written 
> out, dated and signed by the affected parties, so blanket public 
> "contracts" or permissions, like the one you've mentioned, I believe, 
> wouldn't really permit what they appear to permit, at least I don't 
> think that would stand up in a court.

This, in my opinion, is completely inaccurate, although I'd be happy to
change my opinion if I were shown any legal authority that contradicts it.
If this *is* accurate, then a sizeable segment of the software industry
known as the "open source community" has been deluding itself for quite a
number of years, since it's common practice among these folks to release
the source code for computer programs with a blanket license permitting the
code to be used under some circumstances but not others.  The operating
system Linux is probably the best-known example of a piece of software
distributed under such a license, but there have been many thousands (at
least) of others.  All open source licenses (the most popular ones may be
inspected at <http://www.opensource.org/licenses/index.html>) grant general
rights to use the licensed source code, but impose restrictions on the
user: for example, the GNU General Public License permits use of the code
by anyone who wants to incorporate it into other software to be released as
open source, but forbids the use of the licensed code by anyone who wants
to release the resulting program in a proprietary fashion (the so-called
"GNU virus").  A great many people would be very happy to discover that the
GNU GPL won't stand up in court.

The question of what, exactly, parties have to do to get into a contractual
relationship is a very large and vexing one, complicated by recent
technological developments like "click-through contracts" on web sites and
"shrink-wrap licenses" inside sealed boxes of software.  I won't go into
detail about it -- for one thing, going into detail would involve
mentioning UCITA, and if you think people get riled up about copyright
laws, that's *nothing* compared to the reactions to UCITA -- but suffice it
to say that "contracts are valid only when written out, dated, and signed
by both parties" is not strictly accurate.

> There is a slippery section of the copyright law pertaining to 
> something called "fair use" which is often construed to mean 
> something more along the lines of what you want.  But as the notion 
> of "fair use" gets drawn into courts, it gets refined, and the 
> refinements are reducing it to ever smaller and smaller bits of the 
> copyrighted work.

I, personally, don't believe that this generalization is true, but again,
I'd happily revisit that opinion if I were pointed toward a study or
article which analyzes the outcomes of a reasonable-sized sampling of
fair-use cases.  The Court of Appeals in the "Wind Done Gone" case, which
has been mentioned in this discussion more than once, has just held that
the novel made fair use of pretty much the entirety of "Gone With The
Wind," a not insubstantial book.  Fair use has to do with a number of
factors, of which the amount of material copied is only one, and not the
most important one by any means.  

> So if you're a creator, register your copyright and then pick your 
> fights, and if you're a community dance leader, buy the CD or 
> instruction booklet, and when you meet the dance creator, or some 
> member of the band, make certain they understand that you enjoy what 
> they've given, and check with them about ways you may disseminate it. 
> And if you want to use one of Gary's dances, or Charles' or Colin's 
> or Fried's or Pat's in your ball program, do them the courtesy of 
> checking with them first.
> 
> Then honor their preferences.

I agree with this 100%.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 05:00:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:23:03 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: copy rights and wrongs
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000c01c0ee59$8727b3c0$df2a4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20010605230953.KUDZ29822.lowblow-AT-
[204.71.145.48]>

----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Diggle <diggle-AT-
bigfoot.com>

<<On the other hand, I can imagine the fate of some poor ASCAP
snoop showing up at the local contra dance and discovering that
there is no sheet music, only two of the musicians know the name
of the tune they're playing, only one of them knows that it came
from a field recording of Dolph Millarsson taped three weeks
before he died.  Nobody knows where Dolph learned it.  As the
snoop goes back to the office and tries to discover the genesis
of the other tunes he taped the band playing that night, all but
three are are unknown or in the public domain, and those three
were written by band members, who are overjoyed that anyone is
playing them at all.  Not a very good return on three days of
work,  not to mention that he broke the law himself making an
unauthorized recording.>>

About ten years ago, a band I was in played at a joint called The Miller's
Daughter. One day the ASCAP fella came checking it out; I happily gave him
our set list, knowing full well that the only things in it that were under a
hundred years old were a few tunes I'd written myself. Well, he got back to
the owner and demanded she pay up, saying over half the titles on our list
were under copyright. Or, at least, he'd found the titles in his computer.
Apparently there are a lot of tunes with names like "Hole in the Wall". Or
someone, sometime, copyrighted a bunch of Playford tunes. Happened to a lot
of folk songs, too.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 05:00:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:31:34 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: "Ashokan Farewell" copyright
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <003e01c0ee5a$b7545ac0$df2a4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <01060521344203-AT-
tedcrane.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Goddard <pam-AT-
tedcrane.com>

<<The Ithaca dance (contra) has occasionally been hasseled by ASCAP/BMI
about royalty issues.  We have a clause in our musician's contract
to cover the question.>>

How does it read?

Peace,
Paul (in favor of writers getting their royalties -- hey, I *are* a
writer -- but deeply averse to a system that makes struggling venues pay
money to ASCAP and BMI so that when someone performing at the venue plays a
copyrighted tune by Larry Ungar, the organization pays a small royalty to
Garth Brooks)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 05:00:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:47:29 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <006c01c0ee5c$f0e03000$df2a4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20010605.232621.-748265.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com> <a05100300b743588f672d-AT-
[140.186.54.49]>

----- Original Message -----
From: Emily L. Ferguson <elf-AT-
cape.com>

<<And if you want to use one of Gary's dances, or Charles' or Colin's
or Fried's or Pat's in your ball program, do them the courtesy of
checking with them first.

Then honor their preferences.>>

Just got done doing that for the St. Louis Playford Ball. We posted most of
the dances on the website, but left out "Elizabeth" until we'd written to
Colin asking for permission. He gave it, we posted it (with copyright notice
and attribution, including the title of the book it was in), and then, after
the ball was over, we removed it, as he had requested. Simple, easy, and
only took two e-mails on my part and one on his, plus about five minutes of
website-futzing time.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 06:59:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:59:28 +0100
From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <005b01c0ee90$e722e920$2e0e01a3-AT-
oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
References: <20010605.232621.-748265.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com> <a05100300b743588f672d-AT-
[140.186.54.49]> <006c01c0ee5c$f0e03000$df2a4b0c-AT-
paulstam>

Here in the UK we have a system through the Phonographic Performance Licence
for recorded music.  It costs about £30 per year and allows use of recorded
music at club meetings.  So we pay our money and it goes to Garth Crooks or
whoever, BUT, each club is sent out a form to fill in which allows a return
of which recordings have been used (formally  records but it's now track
specific due to artist royalties).  I suspect most clubs don't bother, but
if we all took the trouble then the payments multiply up for the folk
musicians and a slight reduction for the pop people.

I suspect there may be similar through the US licensing bodies.

Paul
Dr Paul Davis


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:00:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:00:38 +0800
From: Cynthia A Neto <can210-AT-
nyu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Please take me off your e-mail list
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <29546eb2954725.295472529546eb-AT-
homemail.nyu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If someone could give me directions as how to unsuscribe myself, I'd appreciate 
it
Cynthia 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:05:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106060850460.810-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Gene Murrow wrote:

> Jon, would a statement appearing in such publications along the lines of
> "Users of this publication are granted permission to duplicate the
> instructions for one or more individual dances as an aid to performance
> of the dance(s)." clear the path and solve the problem without having to
> ask our elected representatives to change the law?

In my opinion, a limited-use license like that would be perfectly valid and
enforceable.  Emily raised the issue that limited-use licenses might not be
enforceable because they don't constitute contracts.  I disagree for a
number of reasons, some of which I listed in my reply to Emily.  The
underlying reasons why I think this is wrong are fairly technical, though,
and I don't want to go into them here.  If anyone would like me to expound
further on this issue, I'll be glad to do so by private email.

I might want to change the wording a bit from what you've suggested,
though.  It seems to me that your proposed language wouldn't provide a
sufficient safeguard against use of the dances by the people you really
WANT to safeguard against: people who will use them to make large
quantities of money and not share it with you.  The example that occurs to
me -- I've mentioned this before -- is someone who's making a TV adaptation
of some novel that involves country dancing, and who decides he wants to
use one of your original dances.  I think it's pretty reasonable to want to
charge this person some money for the privilege of using your work, so I
think the licensing language, if it's going to be anything other than "all
rights reserved," ought to draw an explicit distinction between the types
of use you're licensing and the types you aren't.  If anyone wants to
seriously consider publishing under a limited-use license, contact me by
private email and I'll be glad to consult on the wording.  (Caveat: this is
the sort of thing I do for a living.)

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:11:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:11:49 -0400
From: David Brightbill <djb-AT-
macguys.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Please take me off your e-mail list
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B743EAA3.FFFC%djb-AT-
macguys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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on 6/6/01 12:00 PM, Cynthia A Neto at can210-AT-
nyu.edu wrote:

> If someone could give me directions as how to unsuscribe myself, I'd
> appreciate 
> it
> Cynthia 


I have checked both the Macintosh hints/tips list, the Dog Island list, and
the Land Co-op list, and have not found you on any of them.  Those are the
only ones I administer.  Maybe you got the wrong dave brightbill.

Dave Brightbill

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:22:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:23:24 -0400
From: Loretta Holz <loretta-AT-
varisys.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD for international dancers
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <036001c0eec6$89e38ae0$776cd626-AT-
lorettapc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_frQLwK3u2iuyK+yLsYlCxA)"
References: <9d.166629fe.284d9b25-AT-
aol.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_frQLwK3u2iuyK+yLsYlCxA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

  Rachel asked:
  Which 3 dances would you suggest to help international dancers fall in love with ECD?  

  Since I teach the ECD done at Morristown Folk Dancers (now located in Bernardsville, NJ) on a weekly basis, I feel I'm in a good position to answer your question.  That is, I run the beginner teaching and since I like ECD and SCD I teach a dance from one of these every week.

  These are the dances I would rate as appealing to the dancers and fitting your request:
  Duke of Kent's Waltz
  Fenterlarick
  Freeford Gardens
  Childgrove
  Irish Lamenation (version that starts with corners setting).

  With the more challenging dances only some members of the group do the dances.  They do: Prince William, Fandango and Bare Necessities

  Also in the repertoire: Hole in the Wall, Black Nag, Drapers Garden, Jack's Maggot, Dargason, Geud Man of Ballangigh and more

  Another one I have not seen anywhere else is Lads of Kildare--is that an early contra??

  Hope this helps.
  Loretta Holz

--Boundary_(ID_frQLwK3u2iuyK+yLsYlCxA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rachel asked:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Which 3 dances would you suggest to help 
  international dancers fall in love with ECD?&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Since I teach the ECD done at Morristown Folk 
  Dancers (now located in Bernardsville, NJ) on a weekly basis, I feel I'm in a 
  good position to answer your question.&nbsp; That is, I run the beginner 
  teaching and since I like ECD and SCD I teach a dance from one of these every 
  week.</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">These are the dances I would rate as appealing 
  to the dancers and fitting your request:</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Duke of Kent's Waltz</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Fenterlarick</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Freeford Gardens</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Childgrove</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Irish Lamenation (version that starts with 
  corners setting).</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">With the more challenging dances only some 
  members of the group do the dances.&nbsp; They do: Prince William, Fandango 
  and Bare Necessities</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Also in the repertoire: Hole in the Wall, Black 
  Nag, Drapers Garden, Jack's Maggot, Dargason, Geud Man of Ballangigh and 
  more</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Another one I have not seen anywhere 
  else&nbsp;is&nbsp;Lads of Kildare--is that an early contra??</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Hope this helps.</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Loretta Holz</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_frQLwK3u2iuyK+yLsYlCxA)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:59:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:59:31 +0100
From: jmtraining <jmtraining-AT-
ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000901c0eecb$960bc760$76a468d5-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
References: <20010605.232621.-748265.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com> <a05100300b743588f672d-AT-
[140.186.54.49]> <006c01c0ee5c$f0e03000$df2a4b0c-AT-
paulstam> <005b01c0ee90$e722e920$2e0e01a3-AT-
oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>

Incidentaly, in the UK we have a classical music station Classic FM which is
the (?)3rd or 4th most listened to national radio station. Every Easter they
have a listeners vote at to the 'Classic Hall of Fame' - essentially a top
300 classics.

Last year the surprise entry was At no 100 - Ashokan farewell. In 2001 the
fastest climber was - you've guessed - Ashokan farewell. They play a version
by the Band of the Royal marines.

John Meechan

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!


> Here in the UK we have a system through the Phonographic Performance
Licence
> for recorded music.  It costs about £30 per year and allows use of
recorded
> music at club meetings.  So we pay our money and it goes to Garth Crooks
or
> whoever, BUT, each club is sent out a form to fill in which allows a
return
> of which recordings have been used (formally  records but it's now track
> specific due to artist royalties).  I suspect most clubs don't bother, but
> if we all took the trouble then the payments multiply up for the folk
> musicians and a slight reduction for the pop people.
>
> I suspect there may be similar through the US licensing bodies.
>
> Paul
> Dr Paul Davis
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:05:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 17:01:09 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bare Necessities recordings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, rdmg-AT-
rcn.com, Daniel_Pearl-AT-
yahoo.com, egaddis-AT-
bigfoot.com, Frank.Attanasio-AT-
hanscom.af.mil, jaspianist-AT-
aol.com, marylea-AT-
sover.net, emailbarnes-AT-
iname.com, gaff-AT-
neu.edu
Message-ID: <20010606.170120.-748265.13.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
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Dear friends,

The ever-prolific BN's are heading back to the studio next week to finish
the recording of Volume 6 of their Boston Centre series, and to begin
Volume 7.  [The program lists and release schedules for volumes 5 and 6
are appended at the end of this message for your information].

Volume 7, tentatively titled "By Request," is the album of "stuff which
should have been recorded by now but isn't."   We have the following
candidates on our list (thanks to many of you who responded to my request
earlier in the year for suggestions).  I'd appreciate any responses now
with:  1) additional suggestions and 2) citations of known recordings
already in existence.  Again, we wish to avoid unnecessary duplication of
effort.

Thanks!

Gene Murrow, Producer

Volume 7 "By Request" candidates:

Alderman's Hat
Cockle Shells
Cupid's Garden
Collier's Daughter
Dover Pier
Faithless Nancy Dawson
Fast Packet
Gigue for Genny
Gypsy Round
In the Fields of Frost and Snow
Indian Princess
Jaque Latin
Midnight Ramble
Mrs. Savage's Whim
Old Batchelor
Ore Boggy
Perpetual Motion
Red and All Red
Room for Ramblers
Ramsgate Assembly
Woodlark
------------------------

Volume 5: "At Home" (set dances suitable for dancing at home)  Release
late Summer '01

Astonished Archaeologist, The
Argeers
Broom, the Bonny Bonny Broom
Chelsea Reach
Epping Forest
Fain I Would
Gigue for Genny
Hunsdon House
Hyde Park
Installation, The
Jovial Beggars
Leah's Waltz
Love and a Bottle
Lull Me Beyond Thee
Merry Andrew (I) - lively version (East Coast tempo)
Merry Andrew (II) - stately version (slow West Coast tempo)
Merry, Merry Milkmaids
Mrs. Pomeroy's Pavane
Once A Night
Oxford Circus
Randolph Farewell
Shrewsbury Lasses
Sir Watkin's Jig

Volume 6: "At the Ball" (longways dances drawn from BN's 20 years'
experience playing for the Philadelphia Ball)  Release late Fall '01

Amarillis
Anna Maria
Bar a Bar
Corelli's Maggot
King of Poland
Leather Lake House
Mount Hills
Mulberry Garden
Never Love Thee More
Northdown Waltz
Prince George's Birthday
Pursuit
Red House
Sadler's Wells
Young Widow
----------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-
post.harvard.edu> - for your Address book
ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-
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destination
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:43:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:43:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mount Hills
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4c.1666538c.2850605c-AT-
aol.com>
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Jon said
>
On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
>
>> Also, opinions vary on "Mount Hills."  Some really excellent musicians have
>> let me know that they don't like the tune much and don't feel they can do 
that
>> much with it.
>
>I'm surprised to hear that.  I think it's a great tune and I wish the dance
>were done more often.  The only time I ever get to play it is when I'm
>playing for one of the Renaissance Faire groups that does a different
>dance, "Uffington Horse," to the tune, and it's not as much fun to play at
>the speed they like to dance it. >>

Permit me to interject a solid cheer for "Mount Hills", tune and dance.  I 
enjoyed it immensely at this year's Bay Area Ball.  Moreover, doing the 
half-figures of eight in a skip change leaves just time for one rant step in 
place at the end of the A music.  Jon, you can come play it at one of my 
dance teas anytime.

Nilos, entirely biased

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:05:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:07:21 +0200
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities recordings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: "Murrow, Gene" <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B1F2829.CE554DFF-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010606.170120.-748265.13.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>

> Volume 7 "By Request" candidates:
>
> Alderman's Hat

On EFDSS Apted recording.

> Cockle Shells
> Cupid's Garden

On Wild thyme double cassette for Maggot Pie

> Collier's Daughter
> Dover Pier
> Faithless Nancy Dawson
> Fast Packet
> Gigue for Genny
> Gypsy Round
> In the Fields of Frost and Snow

On Wild Thyme's tapes for Fallibroome

> Indian Princess

On the LP that goes with one of Colin's books.

> Jaque Latin
> Midnight Ramble
> Mrs. Savage's Whim
> Old Batchelor
> Ore Boggy
> Perpetual Motion

Excellent recording on Not Quite New.

> Red and All Red
> Room for Ramblers
> Ramsgate Assembly
> Woodlark

On Wild Thyme's tapes for Fallibroome.

Philippe Callens

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:55:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:59:26 +0100
From: graham-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities recordings
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B1F5DFE.769C-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <20010606.170120.-748265.13.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>

Volume 7 "By Request" candidates:

Alderman's Hat							Apted
Cockle Shells							Bolton, Retread ? (electronic)
Cupid's Garden							Wild Thyme, Maggot Pie
Collier's Daughter						Bolton, Retread ? (electronic)
Dover Pier								Ring O'Bells, Kentish Hops
Faithless Nancy Dawson
Fast Packet
Gigue for Genny
Gypsy Round
In the Fields of Frost and Snow			Wild Thyme, Fallibroome Collection
Indian Princess							Wild Thyme, Dances with a Difference, 2
Jaque Latin
Midnight Ramble
Mrs. Savage's Whim
Old Batchelor							Assembly Players, A Purcell Ball
Ore Boggy
Perpetual Motion						West Kirby, Not
Red and All Red							Bolton, Retreads ? (electronic)
Room for Ramblers						West Kirby, Not Quite the Same
Ramsgate Assembly						Ring O'Bells, Kentish Hops
Woodlark								Wild Thyme, Fallibroome Collection
------------------------

Volume 5: "At Home" (set dances suitable for dancing at home)  Release
late Summer '01

Astonished Archaeologist, The
Argeers									Several recordings available
Broom, the Bonny Bonny Broom			Several recordings available
Chelsea Reach							Several recordings available
Epping Forest							Several recordings available
Fain I Would							Playford Series
Gigue for Genny		?????? Are you recording this twice (cf. vol. 7)
Hunsdon House							Several recordings available
Hyde Park								Several recordings available
Installation, The						Falconers, Haphazard
Jovial Beggars							Wild Thyme, Maggot Pie
Leah's Waltz
Love and a Bottle						Bray version, Playford Consort (Marshall Barron);
Fallibroome version, Peter Jenkins, For Your Pleasure 3 (probably not
available now)
Lull Me Beyond Thee						Several recordings available
Merry Andrew (I) - lively version (East Coast tempo)	Wild Thyme, Maggot
Pie
Merry Andrew (II) - stately version (slow West Coast tempo)
Merry, Merry Milkmaids					Several recordings available
Mrs. Pomeroy's Pavane					Bolton, 
Once A Night							Apted
Oxford Circus							Is done to Parsons Farewell
Randolph Farewell
Shrewsbury Lasses						Several recordings available
Sir Watkin's Jig						West Kirby, Playford Plus

Volume 6: "At the Ball" (longways dances drawn from BN's 20 years'
experience playing for the Philadelphia Ball)  Release late Fall '01

Amarillis								Playford Series
Anna Maria								Which version? Playford (1721) West Kirby, Not Quite
Gold; 	Fallibroome	(Thomas Budd), Wild Thyme, Fallibroome Collection.
Bar a Bar								West Kirby, Playford Plus		
Corelli's Maggot
King of Poland							Several recordings available
Leather Lake House
Mount Hills								Two's Company, All Alive!
Mulberry Garden							Playford series
Never Love Thee More					Several recordings available
Northdown Waltz							Ring O'Bells, Kentish Hops
Prince George's Birthday				As King's Maggot (x3) Two's comapny, All
alive
Pursuit									Bolton, Charles Choice (electronic)
Red House
Sadler's Wells							Apted (LIB 1)
Young Widow								Playford Consort, Young Widow; Bolton, Retread ?
(electronic)


Note: This is by no means a comprehensive list of recordings.

Graham
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:57:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:01:31 +0100
From: graham-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Copyrights, yet again!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B1F5F06.3724-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
References: <20010605.232621.-748265.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com> <a05100300b743588f672d-AT-
[140.186.54.49]> <006c01c0ee5c$f0e03000$df2a4b0c-AT-
paulstam> <005b01c0ee90$e722e920$2e0e01a3-AT-
oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>

The £36 fee for a PPL licence is a special concession to EFDSS members
and affliates.

Graham
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:58:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:06:17 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mount Hills
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <85256A64.004DD819.00-AT-
Notes_SMTP.risk.sungard.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Oh, very well. Nilos' message has persuaded me to pitch in too. Having danced,
taught, and played Mount Hills, I'll say that I love it.
Of course, for the advanced dancer, there is nothing very surprising in its
figures--but not all dances are brain-teasers, nor should they have to be. My
feeling about MH, as about Hole in the Wall (I actually typed "Hold in the
Wall"--"It's an earthquake! Good God, man, Hold In The Wall!") or Take a Dance
or Dover Pier or The Schmatte, is that it is a pleasure at times just to move
musically. Similarly, it's a dance that a relatively new dancer can
master--Look, Ma, I'm dancing!

To my ears, it is one of the almost *offensively* happy, coltish tunes--the
challenge for the musician is that the melody is relatively busy, and the chord
changes *just* fast enough that it's hard to do more than follow them
(especially if done piano solo, as I have done). So, it is more difficult to
color outside the lines. Not impossible, just more difficult.

So, I don't even rant, and don't always skip or skip-change, and I still love
it.

The BancWare Client Conference
June 10th-June 14th, 2001
Westin Copley Hotel
Boston, MA  02116

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems
88 Broad Street, Boston, MA  02110
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 248
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
"Speak, that I may see thee." --Ben Jonson




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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:18:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:38:17 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bare Necessities duplicates
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010607.103842.-748265.16.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
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Thanks to Hugh, Graham, Philippe and others for the extensive
discographies.

The large number of duplications with previous recordings in our "By
Request" candidate list prompts the obvious question:

"If so many of these dances are already recorded, why are dance leaders
requesting that they be recorded?"

Many plausible reasons, I suppose:  some of the recordings are not
readily available (all are from U.K.), or are in less desirable formats
(LP's, or even tape cassettes), some are not of highest quality (either
technically or musically), or are not to current tastes (tempos, dated
styles, etc.).  Of course some people simply would like to have the Bare
Necessities version because of their unique approach; many of these
buyers are listeners, rather than dance leaders.  

My suspicion is, however, that many dance leaders just don't know about
these previous recordings (let alone what dances are actually on them),
and that the producers (often the musicians themselves) are not marketing
them well, making sure the world at large knows about them and that key
distributors like CDSS and Cotswold Music make it convenient to purchase
them.  

This is not good for our small community.  What do we do to fix it?  How
about a web site maintained by a competent volunteer listing all
available ECD recordings with playlists, band info, format, price,
purchase source, and perhaps a short audio clip or two? Might as well do
a complete index with printed sources of instructions and music as well. 
This is the kind of project I'm pretty certain CDSS (Gadd/Merrill Fund)
would consider for funding.  Cooperation with the U.K. folks who do "What
Was That Dance" and the CDSS index project in process would be desirable.
 All producers and publishers would forward information about new
publications to the webmaster.  

Any volunteers? Hugh  :-)?

Gene

P.S. Yes, Gigue for Genny was recorded for Volume 5.  Its appearance on
the By Request list was a copying error (I told you I'm not good at copy
rights).
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:18:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:33:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Subject: Re: Gene's Suggestion for a Grand Index
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <57924.148.184.176.32.991931598.squirrel-AT-
www.weitzman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010607.103842.-748265.16.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>

Gene: you suggested. . .

[snips, here and there]

> My suspicion is, however, that many dance leaders just don't know about
> these previous recordings (let alone what dances are actually on them),
> and that the producers (often the musicians themselves) are not
> marketing them well, making sure the world at large knows about them
> and that key distributors like CDSS and Cotswold Music make it
> convenient to purchase them.  
> 
> This is not good for our small community.  What do we do to fix it? 
> How about a web site maintained by a competent volunteer listing all
> available ECD recordings with playlists, band info, format, price,
> purchase source, and perhaps a short audio clip or two? Might as well
> do a complete index with printed sources of instructions and music as
> well.

I add: include info about: Is the piece recorded as 'danceable' or more for 
listening. If suitable for dancing, how many times thru?

The touchy part: how about a rating system of sorts? (Could this suggestion 
generate as much follow-up discussion as that on copy rights, given the 
inherent subjectivity of ratings of quality?)

Maintaining source info: this is a real bear as things to in-and-out of 
print and availability.

Thanks for all the effort put in on the Boston Centre series: you and Bare 
Necessities have done us all a tremendous service.

-- 
Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:58:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:54:56 -0400
From: Torbin Zimmerman <torbin-AT-
sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities duplicates
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B1FDC10.E3342A30-AT-
sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010607.103842.-748265.16.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>

Gene referred to, "key distributors like...Cotswold Music". Well, that
stimulated me to check their website where I discovered that the catalog
hasn't been updated since 1998 and the latest catalog update is dated
August 1999.

Are they still in business?

This would seem to reenforce Gene's point about poor marketing.

Torbin Zimmerman

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 14:59:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:58:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities recordings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <8e.16ac886a.28515310-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 6/6/01 3:00:55 pm, Gene Murrow writes:

"Volume 7, tentatively titled "By Request," is the album of "stuff which
should have been recorded by now but isn't."   We have the following
candidates on our list (thanks to many of you who responded to my request
earlier in the year for suggestions).  I'd appreciate any responses now
with:  1) additional suggestions and 2) citations of known recordings
already in existence.  Again, we wish to avoid unnecessary duplication of
effort."

Love and a Bottle has just been released by Diana Cruickshank on her double 
album "The Lovers Luck", comprising the complete Bray 20 beautifully played 
by Sociall Musick.

The Assembly Players have recorded the following:
    Old Batchelor - A Purcell Ball
    Ramsgate Assembly - Dance and Danceability
    The Young Widow - Dance and Danceability
    Never love thee more - Pat Shaw's Playford

all issued on CD within the last five years.
                                    Nicolas B. Lanark, Scotland.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 07:58:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:02:24 +0100
From: graham-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities duplicates
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B20E900.758F-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010607.103842.-748265.16.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com> <3B1FDC10.E3342A30-AT-
sympatico.ca>

Yes, they are very much in business. I will have a word with them with a
view to updating their website.

Graham
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 07:59:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:03:43 +0100
From: graham-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities duplicates
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B20E94E.6B67-AT-
gcknight.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010607.103842.-748265.16.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com> <3B1FDC10.E3342A30-AT-
sympatico.ca>

Torbin Zimmerman wrote:
> 
> Gene referred to, "key distributors like...Cotswold Music". Well, that
> stimulated me to check their website where I discovered that the catalog hasn't been updated since 1998 and the latest catalog update is dated August 1999.
> 
> Are they still in business?
> 
> This would seem to reenforce Gene's point about poor marketing.
> 
> Torbin Zimmerman

Yes, Cotswold Music Society are very much in business. I will have a
word with them with a view to updating their website.

Graham
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 08:31:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:30:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106081530.f58FUw025511-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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   Has anyone tried to hold an open mic ECD calling session?  It seems
that there would be some difficulties with this since most English dances
need a specific tune.  How have you worked it with the band?  Some
possibilities might be; if the band feels up to it limit the dance choices
to those with tunes in Barnes (or other readily available books), have
a list of dances from which the volunteer callers can choose or have callers
sign up for the open mic session well in advance so the band can look at
the tunes.  Any other ideas?  Has anyone done this sort of thing before?
How did it work out?

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:27:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:22:57 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <005e01c0f037$47a16180$94294b0c-AT-
paulstam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <200106081530.f58FUw025511-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>

<<   Has anyone tried to hold an open mic ECD calling session?  It seems
that there would be some difficulties with this since most English dances
need a specific tune.  How have you worked it with the band?  Some
possibilities might be; if the band feels up to it limit the dance choices
to those with tunes in Barnes (or other readily available books), have
a list of dances from which the volunteer callers can choose or have callers
sign up for the open mic session well in advance so the band can look at
the tunes.  Any other ideas?  Has anyone done this sort of thing before?
How did it work out?>>

We did it a few years ago; the callers almost entirely limited themselves to
dances in Barnes, or brought handouts; the band are good sight-readers.
Still, it only worked moderately well, and we quit after a couple of months.

Peace,
Paul



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:04:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:01:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106081801.f58I1Lm05205-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Paul Stamler writes:
> 
> <<   Has anyone tried to hold an open mic ECD calling session?  It seems
> that there would be some difficulties with this since most English dances
> need a specific tune.  How have you worked it with the band?  Some
> possibilities might be; if the band feels up to it limit the dance choices
> to those with tunes in Barnes (or other readily available books), have
> a list of dances from which the volunteer callers can choose or have callers
> sign up for the open mic session well in advance so the band can look at
> the tunes.  Any other ideas?  Has anyone done this sort of thing before?
> How did it work out?>>
> 
> We did it a few years ago; the callers almost entirely limited themselves to
> dances in Barnes, or brought handouts; the band are good sight-readers.
> Still, it only worked moderately well, and we quit after a couple of months.

   I'm thinking of it as a one-time event, so if it worked moderately well
that might be just fine.

Jonathan

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:46:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:45:44 -0400
From: gaff-AT-
neu.edu (Terence Gaffney)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v02130501b746f56662b3-AT-
[129.10.72.165]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>   Has anyone tried to hold an open mic ECD calling session? .....
>How did it work out?
>
>Jonathan
>
For the last three years in Boston we have had an open mike format at one
of our regular wednesday dances in May. The first year was a little rocky,
but the two since then have been good, and I think that this year was our
best ever. Some of the dances have been from our repertoire, but others
have been new dances or dances new to Boston.  Music is not a problem;
whether the tune is new or old, the band does a good job with it. (Callers
supply the band with sheet music.) New dances are vetted by Helene
Cornelius.  The process has been helped this year by a series of workshops
on Saturday afternoons where aspiring callers can try leading, and
choreographers can try new dances.  The best of these appeared on our
program this May.

Terry


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:54:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:54:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106082154.f58LsRq01106-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Terence Gaffney writes:
> 
> >   Has anyone tried to hold an open mic ECD calling session? .....
> >How did it work out?
> >
> >Jonathan
> >
> For the last three years in Boston we have had an open mike format at one
> of our regular wednesday dances in May. The first year was a little rocky,
> but the two since then have been good, and I think that this year was our
> best ever. Some of the dances have been from our repertoire, but others
> have been new dances or dances new to Boston.  Music is not a problem;
> whether the tune is new or old, the band does a good job with it. (Callers
> supply the band with sheet music.) New dances are vetted by Helene
> Cornelius.  The process has been helped this year by a series of workshops
> on Saturday afternoons where aspiring callers can try leading, and
> choreographers can try new dances.  The best of these appeared on our
> program this May.

   That sounds encouraging.  Hopefully our event will work out as well.

Jonathan

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:17:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:16:47 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003f01c0f068$b6f44260$ce87193e-AT-
default>
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Please clarify what is being referred to here when you say "English " bands.
Do you mean bands of British English musicians; or Americans playing English
Country Dance Music?
"Most bands need a specific tune"?  Perhaps I cannot comment for most bands,
but my view is that it was the callers or the dancers accustomed / used to
dancing to one particular recording who most need a particular tune and moan
if one plays a different tune; am I wrong?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Date: 08 June 2001 18:00
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:08:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:04:27 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <002f01c0f080$224b1540$a4284b0c-AT-
paulstam>
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<<Please clarify what is being referred to here when you say "English "
bands.
Do you mean bands of British English musicians; or Americans playing English
Country Dance Music?
"Most bands need a specific tune"?  Perhaps I cannot comment for most bands,
but my view is that it was the callers or the dancers accustomed / used to
dancing to one particular recording who most need a particular tune and moan
if one plays a different tune; am I wrong?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>>>

I think you're replying to someone else's posting that had a quote from my
previous posting in it. But virtually all dancers and callers in this
tradition are used to a particular tune going with a particular dance, yes.

Peace,
Paul (throwing in my 2p worth)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:27:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities recordings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106090126.SAA10666-AT-
mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN
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At 07:00 AM 06/07/2001 -0800, Gene Murrow wrote:

>The ever-prolific BN's are heading back to the studio next week to finish
>the recording of Volume 6 of their Boston Centre series, and to begin
>Volume 7.  [The program lists and release schedules for volumes 5 and 6
>are appended at the end of this message for your information].

>Fast Packet

Is there a specific tune for this dance, or have you just picked 
some nice hornpipes? Alternatively this could be a completely 
different dance / tune than the one I'm thinking of (which is by Bob 
Lilley).

Bob

----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:17:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 03:17:31 +0000
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <F72IT18olkDTM9wGmAf000192e3-AT-
hotmail.com>
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At Country Dance * New York we have been having open mic ECD dances for some 
years. Our latest a week ago Tuesday, was well received. (You can see the 
program at: http://www.cdny.org/dancelis.htm.)

One person usually coordinates the evening and provides balance in the 
program so we don't wind up with a string of minor tunes or triple minor 
sets in a row. The musicians hired for the evening are able to sight read so 
there is no problem, should an unfamiliar tune be requested.

We also do open mic dances at our summer dances where contra & English are 
mixed, and we usually hire musicians for that who play both. There is less 
advanced coordination done at that dance, summer being what it is & folks 
are spread out.

Margherita Davis

----Original Message Follows----
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: open mic ECD calling?
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:30:59 -0500 (CDT)

    Has anyone tried to hold an open mic ECD calling session?  It seems
that there would be some difficulties with this since most English dances
need a specific tune.  How have you worked it with the band?  Some
possibilities might be; if the band feels up to it limit the dance choices
to those with tunes in Barnes (or other readily available books), have
a list of dances from which the volunteer callers can choose or have callers
sign up for the open mic session well in advance so the band can look at
the tunes.  Any other ideas?  Has anyone done this sort of thing before?
How did it work out?

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:34:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:34:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rwinslowdance-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: open mic ECD calling
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <10e.ef122b.2852f346-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--Boundary_(ID_wbZpl9dN3KHpcl2p2zToUg)
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A variant on open mic calling is an evening prepared in advance of a 
potpourii of callers.  In the regular Germantoen Country Dancerss schedule 
are evenings for aspiring callers or those who'd like to call a dance 
occasionally.  These occur a couple times a year.  The aspiring callers are 
invited to submit a couple or three dances they'd like to call, the 
coordinator creates a program from the dances and the list goes to the band 
in advance.  GCD has done this for a number of years with success.

Peter Ogle

--Boundary_(ID_wbZpl9dN3KHpcl2p2zToUg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>A variant on open mic calling is an evening prepared in advance of a 
<BR>potpourii of callers. &nbsp;In the regular Germantoen Country Dancerss schedule 
<BR>are evenings for aspiring callers or those who'd like to call a dance 
<BR>occasionally. &nbsp;These occur a couple times a year. &nbsp;The aspiring callers are 
<BR>invited to submit a couple or three dances they'd like to call, the 
<BR>coordinator creates a program from the dances and the list goes to the band 
<BR>in advance. &nbsp;GCD has done this for a number of years with success.
<BR>
<BR>Peter Ogle</FONT></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_wbZpl9dN3KHpcl2p2zToUg)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:04:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:57:03 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010608.235926.-485127.3.franch-AT-
juno.com>
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The Baltimore Folk Music Society has an annual “Burn-off-the-Calories”
Dance on Thanksgiving night which is completely open-mic, open-band. 
I’ve “coordinated” it for the past three years.  I put “coordinated” in
quotes (or ‘inverted commas,’ if you will) because there’s not much
coordination.  I maintain a list of people who come up to me and ask to
call, and as it’s worked out, usually everyone has a chance to call.  The
evening is generally mixed English and contra, usually more contras
because there are more people who want to call contras.  It’s always
worked fine.

The caveat here, I suppose, is that this is a festive, community evening,
usually with a number of kids and often with some people new to dancing
who happened to have Thanksgiving dinner with some dancers.  If one’s
focus was on high-quality dancing, the evening might not pass muster. 
But it’s a grand evening!

Mike Franch
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 01:15:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 09:14:52 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: UK Folk Holidays
To: EngCountryDance <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
CC: Paul Bull <Paul-AT-
enjoyabull.freeserve.co.uk>, Euphine Bromell <euphine-AT-
euphine.freeserve.co.uk>, Glennie Heaton <glen-AT-
brambletye45.freeserve.co.uk>, Office Halsway <office-AT-
halswaymanor.co.uk>, Roger Conway <roger-AT-
folkcamp.com>
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ECD list members who are thinking of coming to SW England this summer, may
like to know of the splendid Halsway  Manor Folk Music Centre at Crowcombe
in Somerset. www.halswaymanor.co.uk

We are running a holiday week that has low numbers at present 27th July -
4th August 2001, so extra people, dancers, callers and singers would be
welcome to this relaxed do-it yourself holiday break. Leaders for social
activities - Joy Simmons and Paul Bull; Music- Alan Corkett; Crafts-
Christine Corkett. Email- office-AT-
halswaymanor.co.uk

Also Folk Camps Society organise a whole range of week long and weekend
events for dancers, singers and musicians. See website www.folkcamp.com for
the programme.

Regards Alan



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:28:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: rmkeller-AT-
ex-pressnet.com
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 11:30:41 -0400
From: Robert M Keller <rmkeller-AT-
ex-pressnet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: English Country Dance Database! WATCH THIS SPACE!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <20010607.103842.-748265.16.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>

Be of good cheer, dancers. A database of English Country Dance books,
records, tapes and other published dances IS COMING!!  SOON!! It has been "in
preparation" for several years and the author is making final changes before
it is put it on-line.
Bob Keller


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 10:11:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:11:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: open mic ECD calling?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106091711.f59HBLA28763-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Alan Corkett writes:
> 
> Please clarify what is being referred to here when you say "English " bands.
> Do you mean bands of British English musicians; or Americans playing English
> Country Dance Music?
> "Most bands need a specific tune"?  Perhaps I cannot comment for most bands,
> but my view is that it was the callers or the dancers accustomed / used to
> dancing to one particular recording who most need a particular tune and moan
> if one plays a different tune; am I wrong?

   I should have been more specific.  I was referring to English country
dances where nearly every dance has a specified tune as opposed to contra
dancing where usually most any tune the band cares to play will go with
whatever dance the caller chooses to call.  This means that open-mic
calling sessions for contra are fairly easy to work and quite common.
With ECD generally the band needs to be told which dances are to be done
in advance so they can prepare the tunes that will be needed.  This would
make open-mic calling problematical.  I was just wondering if other people
have tried this and how they arranged it and how will it worked.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:20:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:20:43 +0100
From: Alan Hartley-Smith <mcassah2-AT-
ist4.co.umist.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Playford conference
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106121120.f5CBKtb07644-AT-
servalan.co.umist.ac.uk>
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First to declare my interest  - I am a member of Greensleeves, Ann 
Kent's display team at the conference. 

I am a historical dancer rather than a folk dancer because one 
aspect I relish is the presentation of period dances. Certainly they 
were intended to be personally enjoyed, but they were also a form 
of "spectator sport" in all periods. Remember also that the ability to 
dance well was a considerable attribute in the social environment - 
in the political arena and the marriage market for example. 
Elizabeth I promoted a court official because of his dancing, and 
the stories of Jane Austen highlight the significance of balls in her 
time. So there should always be a sense of occasion and of 
presentation to the onlookers, which I believe also raises the level  
of enjoyment for the participants. 

This aspect is frequently ignored at many folk events, and a sense 
of this loss has I feel come through in many of the postings in this 
thread - the inherent reference to "style" in the Bray demonstration, 
for example, and the general comments about swinging for 
swinging's sake. In my personal opinion its presense was largely 
responsible for the undoubted success of the event, as Playford 
was publishing his material for just such a mixture of society. This 
is not to say that one has to wear full dress on every occasion, but 
to be aware of the original settings and to dance accordingly, 
whether at a ball or a club night. I look forward to more joint events 
and occasions, combining the exuberance and the quality of the 
conference.

Alan Hartley-Smith
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 05:25:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:14:59 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities recordings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010612.082002.-841003.5.gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>
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On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:26:58 -0700 (PDT) bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk writes:
> ... re: Fast Packet
> 
> Is there a specific tune for this dance, or have you just picked 
> some nice hornpipes? Alternatively this could be a completely 
> different dance / tune than the one I'm thinking of (which is by Bob 
> Lilley).

It's Bob Lilley's dance that was requested.  He recommends "Jacob, or
Enrico" and "The Green Cockade," as published with the dance in the CDSS
News #149.  So there will be a track with 2 good hornpipes, and one could
do any dance one liked.  (And I'd like to do some of the dances you
brought to Pinewoods in '99!).

Gene

P.S.  Several English folks, Graham Knight among others, requested "Red
and All Red" from Bolton's "Retread" series.  The BN's just recorded it
yesterday, and it is drop-dead gorgeous. It should do a lot for making
this beautiful dance and tune better known in the States. We sincerely
hope it will be useful for the English clubs, obsoleting the utilitarian
"electronic" recording that apparently is the only recorded version until
now.  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Permanent address: <gmurrow-AT-
post.harvard.edu> - for your Address book
ISP of the moment: <gmurrow-AT-
juno.com>         - "Reply" button
destination
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:17:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:26:52 +1000
From: Aylwen <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: *NEW* Australian Production of English Country Dances - Music, Dances and Historical Notes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <008901c0f34b$ba6a4f80$377f09d2-AT-
earthly1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Canberran Dance Teacher and Musician John Garden has recently released a
production of 4 CDs containing 5 hours of dance tunes and instructions and a
book containing musical notation for 64 dances and historical information.
For more information, including reviews from Australia and America, please
visit the website http://www.earthlydelights.com.au. The site also contains
MP3 sound files.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:43:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:43:25 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: history of cdss
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
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hotmail.com>
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I had understood that the CDSS began as the "Boston [or New York?] Centre of 
EFDS" in 1915. However, I found this at CDSS' web site:

"The Country Dance and Song Society was founded in 1915 with the help of 
Englishman Cecil Sharp, a musician who traveled in his own country and in 
the southern United States collecting folk dances and songs. Four years, 
earlier, he had helped found the English Folk Dance Society in London, and 
we began as a branch of that organization."

I think the CDSS name only appeared in the 1920s sometime, so strictly 
speaking the first part of the first sentence is not accurate.

Can anyone advise? Perhaps we should organize a seance. I think it's time 
for a history of Cdss. All will be glad to hear that I don't propose to 
write it myself. But someone, somewhere... who would be crazy enough...?

It might best be done in the same fashion as the 6th century Byzantine 
historian, Procopius, who wrote a long and tedious official history of the 
reign of the emperor Justinian. And also wrote his so-called "Secret 
History," which included all the bile, slanders, and general naughty parts 
that Procopius hadn't been able to put into the official version.

Steve Corrsin
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:34:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:34:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Tune problem (was: Re: Bare Necessities recordings)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0106121417420.2713-100000-AT-
pacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
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On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Gene Murrow wrote:

> P.S.  Several English folks, Graham Knight among others, requested "Red
> and All Red" from Bolton's "Retread" series.  The BN's just recorded it
> yesterday, and it is drop-dead gorgeous. It should do a lot for making
> this beautiful dance and tune better known in the States. We sincerely
> hope it will be useful for the English clubs, obsoleting the utilitarian
> "electronic" recording that apparently is the only recorded version until
> now.

... which prompted me to look at some of the other tunes in that volume as
well (Retreads #5), and I noticed in "Kingsale" (#48) that in the 3rd
measure of the tune, the notes given account for only 3/4 of that allotted
by the time signature (2/2).  I have two 1/16ths, a dotted 1/4, followed
by two 1/8ths.  I wonder if anyone on the list is familiar with this
problem and knows the "standard" (i.e. "correct") solution.  The most
obvious guess might be that the two final 1/8ths perhaps should have been
1/4ths, but the resulting rhythmic pattern then doesn't really fit in with
the rest of the tune.  A second guess might be that something has been
omitted (no other simple changes of note length seeming to solve the
problem).  Is this tune/dance familiar anywhere, and if so, what do you
do?

Eric Arnold
Ann Arbor


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:23:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010612192334.14900.qmail-AT-
web3302.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com> wrote:
> I had understood that the CDSS began as the "Boston [or New
> York?] Centre of 
> EFDS" in 1915. However, I found this at CDSS' web site:
> 
> "The Country Dance and Song Society was founded in 1915 with
> the help of Englishman Cecil Sharp, a musician who traveled in
> his own country and in the southern United States collecting
> folk dances and songs. Four years, earlier, he had helped
found
> the English Folk Dance Society in London, and we began as a
> branch of that organization."
> 
> I think the CDSS name only appeared in the 1920s sometime, so
> strictly speaking the first part of the first sentence is not
> accurate.
> 
> Can anyone advise? Perhaps we should organize a seance. I
> think it's time for a history of Cdss. All will be glad to
hear
> that I don't propose to  write it myself. But someone,
> somewhere... who would be crazy enough...?

There was a series of articles about the early history of the
Society in the CDSS annual magazine some years ago. As I recall
they were written by Genny Shimer. I also seem to recall
something written by May Gadd not too long before her death.

The origins of CDSS indeed started as individual branches of
EFDSS. There were six centers: New York (which became CDSS
headquarters when it became a seperate organization in the
twenties), Boston, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Philadelphia and one I
can't recall (possibly Washington, DC?). Not immediately at the
founding, but a few years later (can't remember the year), Cecil
Sharp brought May Gadd and Lillie Roberts over as teachers for
New York and Boston respectively. Pittsburgh center survived as
the current CDSS of Pittsburg. The Philadelphia center survived
into the seventies in Media, PA under the leadership of Perdue
Cleaver; I'm not sure if any of Philadelphia's current
affiliates are direct decendents of that group or not. CDS,
Boston Centre survives to this day, as well as the New York
headquarters center in the guise of Country Dance, New York,
formed when CDSS headquarters was moved to Northfield.

May Gadd became National Director when New York was made the
headquarters region of the new organization. There was a bit of
a rift at that time because there were many in the Society who
felt that Boston should have been the headquarters, and in my
view, Boston Centre has had a somewhat different and more
influential role in the development of CDSS than any other
center. Part of that influence has to do with Pinewoods Camp and
CDSS's long history there. Lillie Roberts met and married
Richard Conant and their neighbors in Lincoln MA were the
Storrows. Mrs. Storrow owned Pinewoods Camp and she offered it
as a dance and music camp for the use of CDSS. When Mrs. Storrow
died, she left the camp to Lillie Conant. The Conant's ran the
camp for many years until the formation of Pinewoods Camp, Inc.
To this day, the main focus of CDSS's headquarters during July
and August shifts from their offices to Pinewoods Camp.

I was fortunate to discover CDSS and Pinewoods while May Gadd
was still director. Lillie Conant was no longer able to teach
when I first visited Pinewoods, but I remember the family
bringing her to the evening dance one night and the love and
respect that surrounded her from the people who had known her
teaching. At that time most of the centers were on the east
coast. Mary Judson taught ECD in Pasadena and there was a small
enclave in the Bay Area organized mostly by people who had moved
there from New York and Boston. There was a lot more cross-over
between the Country Dance and the Song than I see in evidence
today. Contra was rarely seen outside of New England when I
first went to Pinewoods. I have seen a lot of growth, and
growing pains, over the last 30+ years, but I'm glad that I had
the opportunity to know the "Old Guard", those who were the
formers and early leaders of CDSS. My life has been richer for it.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:31:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K4OH0H1ER89JDMEQ-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Steve Corrsin writes:

> I had understood that the CDSS began as the "Boston [or New York?] Centre of
> EFDS" in 1915. However, I found this at CDSS' web site:

> "The Country Dance and Song Society was founded in 1915 with the help of
> Englishman Cecil Sharp, a musician who traveled in his own country and in
> the southern United States collecting folk dances and songs. Four years,
> earlier, he had helped found the English Folk Dance Society in London, and
> we began as a branch of that organization."

> I think the CDSS name only appeared in the 1920s sometime, so strictly
> speaking the first part of the first sentence is not accurate.

Well, it does say later on the same page: (www.cdss.org/history.html)
 
  In 1940, with a growing interest in the American versions of the English
  traditions, we changed our name to the Country Dance Society to honor both
  countries' traditions. Later, "and Song" was added. 

So the first paragraph should read "The Country Dance and Song Society was
founded in 1915 as the American branch of the EFDS . . . "  But doesn't 
seem substantively wrong with me.


> Can anyone advise? Perhaps we should organize a seance. I think it's time
> for a history of Cdss. All will be glad to hear that I don't propose to
> write it myself. But someone, somewhere... who would be crazy enough...?

I nominate either Georgina Boyes (no, wait, she reads the MDDL, not the  ECD
list) or Allison Thompson.  But what I really, really want to see is a
panoramic history of the country dance revival in the US,  going equally
in-depth with Lloyd Shaw and the other non-CDSS strains.

> It might best be done in the same fashion as the 6th century Byzantine
> historian, Procopius, who wrote a long and tedious official history of the
> reign of the emperor Justinian. And also wrote his so-called "Secret
> History," which included all the bile, slanders, and general naughty parts
> that Procopius hadn't been able to put into the official version.

Well, maybe you could write that part.

-- Alan
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:34:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:34:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss, a small detail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.33.0106121825200.144622-100000-AT-
gnu.uvm.edu>
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Mrs. Conant told me the following in the late 1950s:

She was asked to go to the US, had her boat ticket, and was scheduled to
sail the first week of May, 1915.  Her parents prevailed upon her to wait
a few years as she was so young (late teens, I think).  In 1915, she did
not take that boat, the Lusitania.  Instead she waited until World War 1
was over to come to this country.



On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Andrew Peterson wrote:

>
> --- "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I had understood that the CDSS began as the "Boston [or New
> > York?] Centre of
> > EFDS" in 1915. However, I found this at CDSS' web site:
> >
> > "The Country Dance and Song Society was founded in 1915 with
> > the help of Englishman Cecil Sharp, a musician who traveled in
> > his own country and in the southern United States collecting
> > folk dances and songs. Four years, earlier, he had helped
> found
> > the English Folk Dance Society in London, and we began as a
> > branch of that organization."
> >
> > I think the CDSS name only appeared in the 1920s sometime, so
> > strictly speaking the first part of the first sentence is not
> > accurate.
> >
> > Can anyone advise? Perhaps we should organize a seance. I
> > think it's time for a history of Cdss. All will be glad to
> hear
> > that I don't propose to  write it myself. But someone,
> > somewhere... who would be crazy enough...?
>
> There was a series of articles about the early history of the
> Society in the CDSS annual magazine some years ago. As I recall
> they were written by Genny Shimer. I also seem to recall
> something written by May Gadd not too long before her death.
>
> The origins of CDSS indeed started as individual branches of
> EFDSS. There were six centers: New York (which became CDSS
> headquarters when it became a seperate organization in the
> twenties), Boston, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Philadelphia and one I
> can't recall (possibly Washington, DC?). Not immediately at the
> founding, but a few years later (can't remember the year), Cecil
> Sharp brought May Gadd and Lillie Roberts over as teachers for
> New York and Boston respectively. Pittsburgh center survived as
> the current CDSS of Pittsburg. The Philadelphia center survived
> into the seventies in Media, PA under the leadership of Perdue
> Cleaver; I'm not sure if any of Philadelphia's current
> affiliates are direct decendents of that group or not. CDS,
> Boston Centre survives to this day, as well as the New York
> headquarters center in the guise of Country Dance, New York,
> formed when CDSS headquarters was moved to Northfield.
>
> May Gadd became National Director when New York was made the
> headquarters region of the new organization. There was a bit of
> a rift at that time because there were many in the Society who
> felt that Boston should have been the headquarters, and in my
> view, Boston Centre has had a somewhat different and more
> influential role in the development of CDSS than any other
> center. Part of that influence has to do with Pinewoods Camp and
> CDSS's long history there. Lillie Roberts met and married
> Richard Conant and their neighbors in Lincoln MA were the
> Storrows. Mrs. Storrow owned Pinewoods Camp and she offered it
> as a dance and music camp for the use of CDSS. When Mrs. Storrow
> died, she left the camp to Lillie Conant. The Conant's ran the
> camp for many years until the formation of Pinewoods Camp, Inc.
> To this day, the main focus of CDSS's headquarters during July
> and August shifts from their offices to Pinewoods Camp.
>
> I was fortunate to discover CDSS and Pinewoods while May Gadd
> was still director. Lillie Conant was no longer able to teach
> when I first visited Pinewoods, but I remember the family
> bringing her to the evening dance one night and the love and
> respect that surrounded her from the people who had known her
> teaching. At that time most of the centers were on the east
> coast. Mary Judson taught ECD in Pasadena and there was a small
> enclave in the Bay Area organized mostly by people who had moved
> there from New York and Boston. There was a lot more cross-over
> between the Country Dance and the Song than I see in evidence
> today. Contra was rarely seen outside of New England when I
> first went to Pinewoods. I have seen a lot of growth, and
> growing pains, over the last 30+ years, but I'm glad that I had
> the opportunity to know the "Old Guard", those who were the
> formers and early leaders of CDSS. My life has been richer for it.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:57:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:57:34 -0700
From: giovanni de amici <sbecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss, a small detail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B26BA7E.F35F827D-AT-
yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <Pine.A41.4.33.0106121825200.144622-100000-AT-
gnu.uvm.edu>

Nice story, 
but it has all the makings of an urban legend.
If Mrs Conant had a ticket to go from UK to USA in the first week of may
1915, it could NOT have been on the Lusitania. Either a different ship
or a different date, or both (bad memory cannot be ruled out, either).
In any case, the Lusitania was sank on her way FROM USA TO UK, so Mrs
Conant would not have been on the liner as she went down.
For the record, Lusitania sailed from New York city on 1 May 1915. She
was torpedoed off Ireland on 7 May 1915, on her way to dock at Liverpool
the next morning. Given the usual (at the time) turnaround of about one
week (for cleaning and resupplying the ocean liner), the Lusitania would
not have sailed from UK to USA before the third week of May 1915.
Happy dancing.
Giovanni De Amici


"Priscilla M. Burrage" wrote:
> 
> Mrs. Conant told me the following in the late 1950s:
> 
> She was asked to go to the US, had her boat ticket, and was scheduled to
> sail the first week of May, 1915.  Her parents prevailed upon her to wait
> a few years as she was so young (late teens, I think).  In 1915, she did
> not take that boat, the Lusitania.  Instead she waited until World War 1
> was over to come to this country.
> 

-- 
for information about ECD in the Los Angeles area, please check SBECD's
web page at:
www.geocities.com/sbecd


_________________________________________________________

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yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:34:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:20:44 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010612.233040.-543999.2.franch-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central
Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>But what I really, really want to see is  a  panoramic history of the
country dance revival in the US,  
>going equally in-depth with Lloyd Shaw and the other non-CDSS strains.

This would be very valuable.  I know that my own view is CDSS-centric,
and thus limited, and that there's a lot more out there than CDSS (even
though it is the center of my dance universe).  But even if someone did
only CDSS, it could be a rich exploration, and would have to touch on
other organizations.  While such a history wouldn't necessarily call for
the density that Georgina Boyes brought to bear on the English movement,
it shouldn't be a filiopietistic history--we've had enough of that.  One
would also want it to explore the role of folk dance and music in
American culture.  I wonder, for example, if there was ever any conflict
between what I assume (perhaps erroneously) was a pretty WASPy early
membership and the more diverse (that is to say, Eastern European and
Jewish) backgrounds of later members.

Mike Franch
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 05:47:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:47:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss, a small detail
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.33.0106130844370.131936-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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She bought the ticket for the return trip.  No wonder they returned her
monery so graciously.

Not an urban legend:  We were sitting in her house at Pinewoods when she
told me.  (I was invited there because I was on the CDSS board at the
time.)

On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, giovanni de amici wrote:

> Nice story,
> but it has all the makings of an urban legend.
> If Mrs Conant had a ticket to go from UK to USA in the first week of may
> 1915, it could NOT have been on the Lusitania. Either a different ship
> or a different date, or both (bad memory cannot be ruled out, either).
> In any case, the Lusitania was sank on her way FROM USA TO UK, so Mrs
> Conant would not have been on the liner as she went down.
> For the record, Lusitania sailed from New York city on 1 May 1915. She
> was torpedoed off Ireland on 7 May 1915, on her way to dock at Liverpool
> the next morning. Given the usual (at the time) turnaround of about one
> week (for cleaning and resupplying the ocean liner), the Lusitania would
> not have sailed from UK to USA before the third week of May 1915.
> Happy dancing.
> Giovanni De Amici
>
>
> "Priscilla M. Burrage" wrote:
> >
> > Mrs. Conant told me the following in the late 1950s:
> >
> > She was asked to go to the US, had her boat ticket, and was scheduled to
> > sail the first week of May, 1915.  Her parents prevailed upon her to wait
> > a few years as she was so young (late teens, I think).  In 1915, she did
> > not take that boat, the Lusitania.  Instead she waited until World War 1
> > was over to come to this country.
> >

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 05:58:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:58:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: steph-AT-
boo.net
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106131258.IAA08752-AT-
boo-mda02.boo.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I believe that Danny Walkowitz, who is currently not signed on to the List,
plans to address these elements that Alan and Mike mention in a forthcoming 
book.  Danny is particularly interested in the class and ethnic makeup of 
early ECD in the US and what it is now.  Some of our interviews in the 
English Country Dance Video Documentation project address ECD history in 
the US, including Sharp's influence (or stranglehold, depending on your 
point of view) in the revival, the role of CDSS, etc.  It's very interesting 
stuff, and it will eventually be available for research at both the 
Smithsonian (the Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage Archive where I 
work) and the CDSS collections at the University of New Hampshire.  

I am particularly interested in the influence of Pat Shaw and his 
repertoire on ECD here in the US, a topic which I'm researching (slowly).

Stephanie Smith
Bethesda, MD

> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central
> Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> writes:
> >But what I really, really want to see is  a  panoramic history of the
> country dance revival in the US,  
> >going equally in-depth with Lloyd Shaw and the other non-CDSS strains.
> 
> This would be very valuable.  I know that my own view is CDSS-centric,
> and thus limited, and that there's a lot more out there than CDSS (even
> though it is the center of my dance universe).  But even if someone did
> only CDSS, it could be a rich exploration, and would have to touch on
> other organizations.  While such a history wouldn't necessarily call for
> the density that Georgina Boyes brought to bear on the English movement,
> it shouldn't be a filiopietistic history--we've had enough of that.  One
> would also want it to explore the role of folk dance and music in
> American culture.  I wonder, for example, if there was ever any conflict
> between what I assume (perhaps erroneously) was a pretty WASPy early
> membership and the more diverse (that is to say, Eastern European and
> Jewish) backgrounds of later members.
> 
> Mike Franch


---------------------------------------------
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Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:43:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:39:06 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010613.203931.-1928553.4.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
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Alan wrote ...I nominate either Georgina Boyes (no, wait, she reads the
MDDL, not the  ECD
list) or Allison Thompson.  But what I really, really want to see is a
panoramic history of the country dance revival in the US,  going equally
in-depth with Lloyd Shaw and the other non-CDSS strains.


Wow, thank you for the compliment, Alan!  I have indeed been mulling over
the idea of doing this for some time, even going to the trouble of
creating (empty) color-coded folders to begin to amass the information,
but got a bit stuck at the point of obtaining a grant pittance to obtain
important photocopies or to visit the CDSS Archives...and then other
projects got in the way....

Furthermore, as I thought about it, the challenge was not so much to
collect the information to write a history of CDSS and its friends &
competitors, for such information is readily available, but to make such
a history relevant to the reader.  After all, why should anyone outside
our little circle care about the history of CDSS versus the history of
some other little Bohemian fringe group? In the early (pre-WWII) years, I
can find at least two other important social movements that the folk
revivalists were aligned with, however loosely; however, my sense of the
"greater relevance" of CDSS or ECD after WWII until, perhaps, the Great
Contra Revival, is much, much weaker.

Even further, what does CDSS or English CD'g mean today, sociologically
or anthropologically speaking?  For example, I think we could agree that
in their broadest points, ECDers in America are more like each other than
they are like other groups (such as Texas Quarterhorse Quadrille Riders,
Southern Baptists or Urban Hip-Hoppers).  But that's not the same as an
ideological platform.  In Sharp's day, his acolytes had a clearer sense
that they were 1) saving folk song/dance from the ravages of modern
culture and 2) were giving it back to the people to (variously) make them
more English or to make them more happy & productive (in a Fabian sense).
 Today, do We collectively have a Function, other than a general good
time? I tend to think not, though I'd be interested to hear arguments on
the point.

So when one looks at CDSS, what one sees is a group that has fairly
successfully existed for some 85+ years, adapting to changing
circumstances along the way (which alone gives it merit for a largely
volunteer organization).  The group represents an activity which is a
voluntary hobby, yet which has its roots in some perception of ideology
(that is, that is a *good thing* for people to be able to access or
recreate a more simple/primitive/historical level of their existence).  I
suppose if one wanted to study organizational behavior, one could examine
the organizational or behavioral factors that have made CDSS succeed
where other similar recreational groups (not just folk dance) have
failed. For example, CDSS successfully overcame the problem that many
groups (and businesses, too) have when the founder or visionary (Gadd)
dies.  I don't get a sense that the L. Shaw group made this transition. 
Or, if you want to study ideologies, you could try to find evidence that
CDSS has transcended its original purposes and repositioned itself as a
successful purveyor of what you might call hobby information, rather than
an ideological platform ("We must teach folk dance in our schools! How
else will the children learn about America's melting pot!"--which I'd
argue is no longer a prime part of CDSS's function, even if some members
engage in this activity).

In other words, I have been floundering on the thesis point(s).  Of
course, I don't have a monopoly on the topic, but I'd be interested in
hearing thoughts on these points.

Allison Thompson

________________________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:21:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:39:06 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010613.211750.-1955241.2.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
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Alan wrote ...I nominate either Georgina Boyes (no, wait, she reads the
MDDL, not the  ECD
list) or Allison Thompson.  But what I really, really want to see is a
panoramic history of the country dance revival in the US,  going equally
in-depth with Lloyd Shaw and the other non-CDSS strains.


Wow, thank you for the compliment, Alan!  I have indeed been mulling over
the idea of doing this for some time, even going to the trouble of
creating (empty) color-coded folders to begin to amass the information,
but got a bit stuck at the point of obtaining a grant pittance to obtain
important photocopies or to visit the CDSS Archives...and then other
projects got in the way....

Furthermore, as I thought about it, the challenge was not so much to
collect the information to write a history of CDSS and its friends &
competitors, for such information is readily available, but to make such
a history relevant to the reader.  After all, why should anyone outside
our little circle care about the history of CDSS versus the history of
some other little Bohemian fringe group? In the early (pre-WWII) years, I
can find at least two other important social movements that the folk
revivalists were aligned with, however loosely; however, my sense of the
"greater relevance" of CDSS or ECD after WWII until, perhaps, the Great
Contra Revival, is much, much weaker.

Even further, what does CDSS or English CD'g mean today, sociologically
or anthropologically speaking?  For example, I think we could agree that
in their broadest points, ECDers in America are more like each other than
they are like other groups (such as Texas Quarterhorse Quadrille Riders,
Southern Baptists or Urban Hip-Hoppers).  But that's not the same as an
ideological platform.  In Sharp's day, his acolytes had a clearer sense
that they were 1) saving folk song/dance from the ravages of modern
culture and 2) were giving it back to the people to (variously) make them
more English or to make them more happy & productive (in a Fabian sense).
 Today, do We collectively have a Function, other than a general good
time? I tend to think not, though I'd be interested to hear arguments on
the point.

So when one looks at CDSS, what one sees is a group that has fairly
successfully existed for some 85+ years, adapting to changing
circumstances along the way (which alone gives it merit for a largely
volunteer organization).  The group represents an activity which is a
voluntary hobby, yet which has its roots in some perception of ideology
(that is, that is a *good thing* for people to be able to access or
recreate a more simple/primitive/historical level of their existence).  I
suppose if one wanted to study organizational behavior, one could examine
the organizational or behavioral factors that have made CDSS succeed
where other similar recreational groups (not just folk dance) have
failed. For example, CDSS successfully overcame the problem that many
groups (and businesses, too) have when the founder or visionary (Gadd)
dies.  I don't get a sense that the L. Shaw group made this transition. 
Or, if you want to study ideologies, you could try to find evidence that
CDSS has transcended its original purposes and repositioned itself as a
successful purveyor of what you might call hobby information, rather than
an ideological platform ("We must teach folk dance in our schools! How
else will the children learn about America's melting pot!"--which I'd
argue is no longer a prime part of CDSS's function, even if some members
engage in this activity).

In other words, I have been floundering on the thesis point(s).  Of
course, I don't have a monopoly on the topic, but I'd be interested in
hearing thoughts on these points.

Allison Thompson

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:20:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:22:33 -0700
From: Robin Hayden <robinhayden-AT-
earthlink.net>
Subject: The Mission of CDSS
To: ecd list <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B290EF9.98E369A9-AT-
earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Friend,

May I humbly suggest that before we go too much further down Speculation
Lane as to what the contemporary mission of CDSS might be we take a look
at the current mission statement and prioritized list of objectives
painstakingly hammered out by the Governing Board over the last decade
or so?

Roger?  Alan?  Sandy?  Bruce?  Mary?  Rich?  Yonina?  Dan?  Anyone have
a copy of those hanging around?

Robin Hayden
(counting the minutes until Philippe's arrival in Amherst)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:56:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:51:51 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010614.225151.-436195.0.franch-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you Allison Thompson for the fine mini-essay about what seems to be
the movement from upper--case Movement to a group of hobbyists.  Perhaps
that's your missing hypothesis.

Robin Hayden raises the issue of "the current [CDSS] mission statement
and prioritized list of objectives
painstakingly hammered out by the Governing Board over the last decade or
so."  Perhaps I'm a bad CDSS member, but I haven't been aware of it, and
Robin doesn't seem to have the details in mind, which also might be
telling.  And there is, after all, a big difference between "Mission" and
"mission statement."

Which is not to say that any of this, if true, is good or bad.  Indeed,
maybe I'm more comfortable with an organization that wants to promote
very worthy activities for the pure joy they bring than one that is out
to change the world through folk music and dance.  

On the other hand, this list has given ample evidence of the vigorous
critique of current popular culture and entertainment held by some
(certainly articulate) ECDers, so something of the old countercultural
critique survives with vigor.

Mike Franch
who should be packing for Dance Week at Buffalo Gap 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:17:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:19:52 -0700
From: Mary Devlin <mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: History of CDSS
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B74ED4C8.F16%mary-AT-
mdevlin.com>
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I've mentioned to Paul Jordan-Smith in Seattle (he's a folklorist) about our
discussion of the history of CDSS.  And he said -- no surprise -- that
others who'd be very interested in such a history would be (ta da)
folklorists.

Just so we don't think we're the Only Ones who'd lap it up,

Mary

mary-AT-
mdevlin.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:14:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:15:43 -0400
From: Tom Siess <tfsiess-AT-
sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001401c0f5b0$226a1280$a90de440-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael Franch wrote:

>"Robin Hayden raises the issue of "the current [CDSS] mission statement and
prioritized list of >objectives painstakingly hammered out by the Governing
Board over the last decade or so."  >Perhaps I'm a bad CDSS member, but I
haven't been aware of it, and Robin doesn't seem to have >the details in
mind, which also might be telling.  And there is, after all, a big
difference >between "Mission" and "mission statement.""

The CDSS Mission Statement, along with the Long Range Plan, was published in
the CDSS News about six years ago, when it was first adopted by the Board.
The revised Long Range Plan was published in the News about a year ago (The
Mission Statement wasn't republished because it wasn't changed.  The whole
package is available from the CDSS Office, and it may be available on the
Web site (if it isn't, maybe it should be).  Robin was only saying that she
didn't have a copy in her hands at that moment - that doesn't mean that it's
not readily or easily available.

And "yes", there can be a difference between a "mission statement" and
"mission", if a Board is not mission or outcomes oriented.  The CDSS Board
has worked very hard to focus on what it is we are trying to achieve in the
world.  We probably aren't entirely there, and we probably never will be.
But our style of governance is such that we spend a very significant amount
of our time and energy trying to identify and define just why we, as an
organization, exist.  Our Mission Statement and Long Range Plan are the our
clearest statement, at present, of what we believe to be our long-term and
intermediate-term purposes.  More importantly, we keep working at it, and
our Board meetings always set aside a significant portion of the available
time to keep revisiting those questions - and we will continue to do so.  As
a result, we should get better and better at clarifying just what it is that
we want to achieve.  It may be that we need next to find a very brief but
powerful single statement that captures our sense of purpose - not just a
cute slogan, but a statement that serves as a driving force for our
activities.  We'll work on it.

In the meantime, the opening paragraph of the Mission Statement might be of
some help in the discussion.  It says, "The Country Dance and Song Society
is a national organization dedicated to the preservation and promotion of
English and Anglo-American traditional and historical folk dance, music and
song.  It is composed of individual members and affiliate groups, and it
functions both as an international service bureau and as a facilitator in
building and maintaining local and regional dance, music and song
communities.  It exists to meet needs for community-based activity, for
active participation, and for sharing and keeping historical and folk
traditions alive."

So, yes, there is an element of "supporting hobbyists" in this, but it
clearly goes beyond that.  In fact, providing entertaining recreation is
only one of a number of means of building and sustaining a rich history of
dance, music and song.  After all, if people don't enjoy it, it will simply
become a museum piece that is of interest only to historians, folklorists
and other scholars.  Our goal is to create the conditions that will allow
those activities to continue to enrich the lives of people, and to remain as
faithful as we can to the history that got us where we are today.

I hope this helps a bit.  I welcome this discussion, and I sincerely hope
that someone will take up the challenge of documenting the history of CDSS.
Maybe we can even help the process - although clearly we don't have the
resources "in house" to do it.

Tom Siess
President, CDSS

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:11:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:12:23 -0700
From: Marian Phillips <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <004f01c0f6c2$4db88300$a4beb0d0-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <001401c0f5b0$226a1280$a90de440-AT-
default>

While we're talking about unwritten histories and whatnot, I wonder if
anyone can tell me a little more about May Gadd.  I've heard a rumor that
she was a lesbian (or bisexual, I don't know which), and seeing as it's Gay
Pride Month, I thought I'd find out if anyone knew yea or nay on this.
(When I'm at the Dyke March on Saturday I can go around proudly telling
people about her . . . and be met with a blank stare, no doubt, but it'll
give me satisfaction, anyway.)

In the larger picture, does anyone know any other biographical stuff about
her?  All  I ever see is "came to America to teach, blah blah blah, and I'd
love to know more.

Marian Phillips
San Francisco

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:56:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 21:56:53 -0500
From: Roger Diggle <diggle-AT-
bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010617025652.KCNP10209.lowblow-AT-
[204.71.145.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Perhaps you're thinking of Gay Madd...

Marian Phillips wrote:  

>While we're talking about unwritten histories and whatnot, I wonder if
>anyone can tell me a little more about May Gadd.  I've heard a rumor that
>she was a lesbian (or bisexual, I don't know which), and seeing as it's Gay
>Pride Month, I thought I'd find out if anyone knew yea or nay on this.
>(When I'm at the Dyke March on Saturday I can go around proudly telling
>people about her . . . and be met with a blank stare, no doubt, but it'll
>give me satisfaction, anyway.)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:52:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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 Take those two out and GAFIATE them!



On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Roger Diggle wrote:

> Perhaps you're thinking of Gay Madd...
>
> Marian Phillips wrote:


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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:15:48 -0400
From: franch-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: history of cdss
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I appreciate Tom Siess's thoughtful response to my earlier posting, and
want to clarify that earlier posting of mine, just to make sure that I'm
making my meaning clear and that "where I'm coming from," as we used to
say, is clear.

In a literal sense, where I came from before checking my email and
writing this message was the Baltimore Folk Music Society's annual spring
weekend in the Catoctin National Park.  (BFMS, BTW, is a CDSS affiliate.)
 A great weekend of singing, ECD, contra dancing, international folk
dancing, singing, crafts, storytelling, etc.  I taught a longsword class,
a dance form I learned at Pinewoods.  I am committed to the CDSS goal of
"the preservation and promotion of English and Anglo-American traditional
and historical folk dance, music and song."  (In my case, less as a
cultural heritage issue but because I think that much of this music and
dance is simply marvellous, not to mention fun.)

I highly value CDSS, what it does, and who does it--that is, the
professional staff and volunteer officers and board members who keep it
healthy and moving forward.  I very much enjoyed meeting Tom and the
board when it met in Baltimore a couple of years ago.  (I look forward to
seeing Tom again at Buffalo Gap, and to singing with him.)  From what I
have read and heard, the CDSS board operates in an exemplary manner and
is a model for a voluntary association.  I like what CDSS does, and as a
person who loves the kind of activities it promotes, wants to see it be
successful.  Like many of us (and like members of other organizations
that give their members much pleasure) I am evangelical about what we do
and would love to see a lot more people do it.

But my point, after these two long and perhaps defensive paragraphs, is
still the same as in my original posting.  In the historical context,
which is the context of this thread, the hypothesis we're talking about
is that we're in a different organizational and ideological universe than
we were a x point in the past.  (It might be that the run-of-the-mill
member at x-point in the past wasn't much interested in the
organization's ideology or mission: he or she just loved ECD and that was
enough.)  I suspect that what we have now is a service model national
organization.  I think that most affiliates and members look to it for
certain benefits, such as dance camps, organizational assistance, and
discounted publications.  These are not bad things, or bad reasons for an
organization to exist.  They will be powerful attractions to membership
(probably the most powerful attractions) whatever the mission statement. 


I might be wrong in holding this hypothesis, as it pertains to the past
or the present.  My sole purpose in supporting this hypothesis (which I
didn't originate in this discussion) is to encourage an examination of
CDSS history.  It is an organization that many of us love.  

Mike
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:43:29 PST
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:41:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
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Since I started dancing in 1977 I have heard many times that you
get more dancing time in a triple minor progression if the number
of couples in the line is not a multiple of three. That is, if the
bottom minor set is not complete. I can't believe that I accepted
this statement without checking it for myself all these years. The
question came up at one of the excellent dances in Western
Massachusetts this weekend and I heard myself saying "I haven't
done the math, but I've always heard..." I was ashamed at what I
was saying (hearing).

Well, I just did the math. The conventional wisdom is wrong (or I
misunderstood the point).

Every three times through the figure, the configurations repeat
through a cycle at both the top and bottom of the set. At the top,
there are no couples out, then one, then two. Same at the bottom,
except that 1) the relationship between the timing of the
configuration at the bottom and the configuration at the top
depends on how many more couples there are than a multiple of
three and 2) when there are two couples out at the bottom, they
"dance with a ghost couple." This (#2) actually turns out to have
no bearing on the question, as long as we accept the proposition
that dancing in a complete minor set is preferable to dancing with
a ghost couple.

Since the configurations repeat every three times through the
figure, if the figure were done a multiple of three times it
wouldn't matter how many couples you started with: average dancing
time would be the same. But triple minors are traditionally done
3n + 1 times, ending after the couple at the top has just danced
in. That means that at the top, the "no couples out" configuration
happens once more than the other two (one or two couples out).

At the bottom, the configuration that happens at the same time as
"no couples out at the top" happens once more than the other two.
Average dancing time is maximized if this configuration is also
"no couples out," which is the case if and only if the total
number of couples is a multiple of three. 

Start with complete minor sets and end with complete minor sets
and average dancing time will be maximized.

The same, by the way, goes for a duple minor: because it begins
and ends with a complete minor set at the top, average dancing
time is maximized if the minor set at the bottom is also complete
at both the beginning and end of the dance. 

It was good to see so many ECD'ers at the Boston Early Music
Festival!

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:14:14 PST
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:14:10 -0500
From: Roger Diggle <diggle-AT-
bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com wrote:  

>Since I started dancing in 1977 I have heard many times that you
>get more dancing time in a triple minor progression if the number
>of couples in the line is not a multiple of three. That is, if the
>bottom minor set is not complete. I can't believe that I accepted
>this statement without checking it for myself all these years. The
>question came up at one of the excellent dances in Western
>Massachusetts this weekend and I heard myself saying "I haven't
>done the math, but I've always heard..." I was ashamed at what I
>was saying (hearing).
>
>Well, I just did the math. The conventional wisdom is wrong (or I
>misunderstood the point).


I can't comment on what may or may not have been misunderstood, 
but I can make a case for a number of couples that's not an even
multiple of three.  I think the optimum number of couples in a 
triple minor contra set, especially when dancing traditional 
dances, is seven or eight couples.  I suspect the idea will hold 
nicely enough for ECD as well.

Consider a duple minor set for a moment.  To cycle the set and 
have the couples dancing in their original positions for the 
last change, it is necessary to play the music twice through for 
each couple, plus one.  A 12 couple set, not unusual, takes 25 
changes, about as many as the average band cares to play, and 
the average dancer cares to dance.  

A triple minor set takes three changes plus 1.  So a nine couple 
set would want 28 changes to cycle the set, and to give all the 
dancers a nearly equal opportunity to dance the beloved active 
role.  Likewise, eight or seven couple sets will take 25 or 22 
changes, respectively.

In a six couple set, much of the time is spent with only one 
complete minor set dancing.  Increasing the set to seven or 
eight couples greatly improves that ratio.  So I like to see 
sets of eight, seven, or nine couples, in that order of 
preference, when possible.

Dances which give greater entertainment value to the second and 
third couples can tolerate longer sets, since they reduce the 
pressure to give all the dancers a substantial opportunity to 
dance as first couples.

Roger Diggle


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:44:48 PST
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:53:20 -0700
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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David Barnett wrote
>Well, I just did the math. The conventional wisdom is wrong (or I
>misunderstood the point).
 
Well, I'm not good at math so I drew little diagrams.  I assumed 7 times
through the tune ending, as David suggests, with the top couple active.

In 7 times through for a 6 couple set, there will be a total of 10 complete
3-couple sets dancing and 12 couples standing out. 

In 7 times through for a 7 couple set, there will be 12 complete sets and
13 couples standing out.  

In an 8 couple set, there are a total of 14 complete sets and 14 couples
standing out.

To me this looks as though the proportions of dancers to standers is best
if there are two couples out at the bottom to start, next best if there is
one couple out at the bottom, and worst if there are even multiples of three. 










                                      
Victoria 


 
Please check out our WEB site at  http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:35:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: Thomas Bending <t.bending-AT-
mdx.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Re the question of whether "you get more dancing time in a triple 
minor progression if the number of couples in the line is not a 
multiple of three."

David Barnett gave a general argument that you should
> Start with complete minor sets and end with complete minor sets
> and average dancing time will be maximized.

Victoria Bestock analysed 6, 7 and 8 couples, and concluded
> To me this looks as though the proportions of dancers to standers 
> is best if there are two couples out at the bottom to start, next
> best if there is one couple out at the bottom, and worst if
> there are even multiples of three. 

[Apologies for massive pruning in both cases]

There are two competing effects going on here, which is why David 
and Victoria come to different conclusions. In the following "efficient" 
means "has a large ratio of dancing to standing", and like the others I 
assume we play the music 1-more-than-a-multiple-of-3 times 
through.

First effect: for *large* numbers of couples, it is most efficient to have 
a multiple of three couples.

Second effect: for *small* numbers of couples adding another couple 
improves efficiency, because it significantly reduces the proportion of 
couples involved in end effects.

So although David is right about the first effect, Victoria is right that 
eg 7 couples beats 6, because of the second effect. I can therefore see 
how the original piece of folklore might have come about.

Here's what happens in general, assuming that we play the music 
3t+1 times:

If the number of couples is less than 6t, then the second effect 
always wins so the more couples, the better.

If the number of couples is 6t, 6t+1 or 6t+2 then the efficiency is the 
same in these three cases.

If the number of couples is greater than 6t+2 then it's always most 
efficient to have a multiple of three couples, eg 6t+3 is more efficient 
that 6t+4 or 6t+5, etc.

For example if the music goes through 7 times (t=2) then for various 
numbers of couples the overall percentage of time spent dancing as 
opposed to standing out is

 3   42.86%
 4   53.57%
 5   60.00%
 6   71.43%
 7   73.47%
 8   75.00%
 9   80.95%
10   81.43%
11   81.82%
12   85.71%
13   85.71%
14   85.71%
15   88.57%
16   88.39%
17   88.24%
18   90.48%
19   90.23%
20   90.00%

So as claimed the proportion rises steadily until 6t=12 couples, it's 
constant for 12, 13 or 14 couples, and thereafter 15 couples is better 
than 16 or 17, then 18 couples is better than 19 or 20, etc. The same 
kind of thing happens for other values of t.

The details of the proofs are just too messy for this list: please write 
privately if you really want details. Finishing other than just after the 
top couple restart, dancing with ghosts at the bottom, and 
generalising to larger minor sets, are left as exercises for the reader 
8-)

And people say pure mathematics is no use to anyone...

Thomas Bending
(amateur dancer, caller and musician, professional doer of math)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:13:25 PST
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:38:36 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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There was a profile of her in The New Yorker, which was replicated in
CDSS News, #97, Nov-Dec, 1990.  There was also an "In Memoriam" issue,
#26, May 1979. I haven't summoned the energy yet to go look for these &
don't remember much off-hand. 

For those of us who remember her as a short, stout, sometimes frightening
figure (well, she frightened me!), rather like a fiercer Dame Margaret
Rutherford, I find it interesting to note that in her youth she was
pretty, slim, petite and apparently light-hearted.  Novelist Elsie J.
Oxenham, who characterized Sharp variously as "The Prophet" or "The
Director," characterized Gadd as "Little Robin," because she was so
bright and chirpy and fun.

Allison
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Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:14:47 PST
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:09:00 +0100 (BST)
From: Anthony Stone <ajs1-AT-
cam.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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fandango.ch.cam.ac.uk>
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Perhaps we should consider the Scottish solution to triple minors:
eight times through in a four-couple set. Then everyone dances twice
in every position and stands out once at the top and once at the
bottom.
-- 
Anthony Stone				http://fandango.ch.cam.ac.uk/
University Chemical Laboratory,         Email:   ajs1-AT-
cam.ac.uk
Lensfield Road,                         Phone:  +44 1223 336375
Cambridge CB2 1EW                       Fax:    +44 1223 336362
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:24:05 PST
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:24:02 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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But then we, too, would require multiples of eight, which often leaves
willing dancers sitting out.  One of the joys of longways sets is that
we just need multiples of two, and more dancers get to participate.

--Deb Karl


Anthony Stone wrote:
> 
> Perhaps we should consider the Scottish solution to triple minors:
> eight times through in a four-couple set. Then everyone dances twice
> in every position and stands out once at the top and once at the
> bottom.
> --
> Anthony Stone                           http://fandango.ch.cam.ac.uk/
> University Chemical Laboratory,         Email:   ajs1-AT-
cam.ac.uk
> Lensfield Road,                         Phone:  +44 1223 336375
> Cambridge CB2 1EW                       Fax:    +44 1223 336362
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:57:55 PST
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:00:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: David.Millstone-AT-
valley.net (David Millstone)
Subject: Duple minors
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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I'm taking one snippet out of the long piece on triple minor sets...

--- David Barnert wrote:
Start with complete minor sets and end with complete minor sets and average
dancing time will be maximized.

The same, by the way, goes for a duple minor: because it begins and ends with a
complete minor set at the top
--- end of quote ---

A minor side note: If it's a double progression duple minor (let's not go, for
the moment, into double progression triple minor dances!), I much prefer to have
an extra couple at the end of the set. (My experience is more with contras than
ECD, so that may color my thinking.) This way, when you move through the dance,
as you encounter the same couple a second time as you progress along the lines
you do something different with them, which makes the dancing more enjoyable.

David Millstone
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:04:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:39:51 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "Will it ever be *our* turn?" (was: Doing the Math)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I do not for a moment deny the utility of doing the math, and am grateful to
read the differing modes and results.
These seem, however, counsels of perfection. When I teach, I know that my
calculations are much less finely tuned. Are the sets a *reasonable* length? If
the dance on offer is principally a pleasure for the 1s, I will try to shorten
the sets. If the 1s, 2s, and 3s have differing but equally interesting
experiences, I may not worry so much.

In the good or bad old days, most dances were about the 1s: the 2s and/or 3s
assisted and looked on. We seem now to have developed an expectation (very
American, and very Baby-Boomer) that everyone will be in glorious motion all the
time--and that isn't possible, nor should it be. Of course there are dances
still popular that are rather 1-favoring--but there is something to be learned
from, and about, supporting others: not carrying the melody all the time (ask
any alto, ask any continuo player, etc.). "They also serve who only stand and
wait," as that Cromwellian pill Milton said. [The temptation to rewrite his
sonnet so that the conclusion reads "They also serve who only lead and cast" is
considerable].

I find being a 2 or a 3 in "From Aberdeen" quite gratifying, but I understand
that not everyone agrees--and so, I think I'd be careful to offer more
democratic dances around it (i.e., not to teach "From Aberdeen" *and* "Knives
and Forks" in the same hour, or perhaps even in the same evening).

There is also good reason to recast some dances as sets that seem to have begun
life as triple minors--"St. Margaret's Hill" being only the most obvious
example--this spreads the pleasures around while keeping the caller's math
simple.

There will be those evenings when you end up at the bottom of a 1-loving TM and
never reach the top, immediately followed by the set dance where you get the
most awkward spot, and never quite master the good spot when you get there, and
then end up at the bottom of a 1-loving DM, and get two turns as a 1--but the
next week, you'll have joy after ecstatic joy, with favorite partners and best
spots all night.

I can't but think, now, of the image of Fortune's Wheel--essentially medieval,
but not wholly forgotten in the days of Playford & Son, as evidenced by
contemporary emblem books. There's Queen Hecuba, once so rich and famous, at the
bottom, and having a perfectly dreadful time--a stiff warning to us all about
the transitoriness of blahblah--but there at the top is the monkey (that is to
say, you and me), having his moment in the sun, in at the top, ready to start
his favorite dance.

Graham Christian
Technical Writer, Product Management
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems
88 Broad Street, Boston, MA  02110
Telephone number: (617)542-2800, extension 248
Email address:  graham.christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Group web address:  http://www.risk.sungard.com
"Speak, that I may see thee." --Ben Jonson




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Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:04:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:04:38 -0600
From: Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05010401b75524c2abaa-AT-
[155.99.169.34]>
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>Perhaps we should consider the Scottish solution to triple minors:
>eight times through in a four-couple set. Then everyone dances twice
>in every position and stands out once at the top and once at the
>bottom.
>--
>Anthony Stone				http://fandango.ch.cam.ac.uk/
>University Chemical Laboratory,         Email:   ajs1-AT-
cam.ac.uk
>Lensfield Road,                         Phone:  +44 1223 336375
>Cambridge CB2 1EW                       Fax:    +44 1223 336362

I've often thought we should adopt this solution in our club, which 
has a high proportion of Scottish dancers who already understand this 
progression.  As it is, we rarely do triple minors because of the 
risk of the set falling apart.  This usually occurs when the bottom 
set gets enough people to start dancing again.

However, the Scottish solution lacks the fun of working your way down 
from the top of a triple minor set.

In fact the whole problem of triple minors is that so few people get 
to enjoy the part that is the most fun - continuous dancing as first 
couple.  It's an inherently unequal form, and can be pretty 
unsatisfying if, having "paid your dues" as supporting couples, you 
only get to dance first couple once or twice, or not at all.

That being said, I love triple minors and wish we could do them more 
- the Scotttish solution is probably the best one for us.

(Hallo Anthony!  Nice to see a letter from you)

Emma
-- 
-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:46:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:33:05 -0400
From: gaff-AT-
neu.edu (Terence Gaffney)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Last party of the season, looking ahead to the summer
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v02130515b755738cf217-AT-
[129.10.72.165]>
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Dear Friends,

This Wednesday brings our season in Boston to a close; its been a great
season with record breaking attendance, and wonderful parties and classes.
Come celebrate with us at our annual End of the Year party!  Enjoy the
calling of Boston Centre staff members old and new, as we give you a
preview of next season.

Although our season is ending, we do have 4 summer dances planned; the
dates are:
 July 11, July 25, Aug 8, Aug 29 .

So if you're in Boston this summer on one of these Wednesdays, please drop
by and see us!

 Best,
 Terry


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Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:44:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Will it ever be *our* turn?" (was: Doing the Math)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010619234436.2557.qmail-AT-
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--- Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com wrote:
> ..."They also serve who only stand and wait," as that
> Cromwellian pill Milton said. [The temptation to rewrite his
> sonnet so that the conclusion reads "They also serve who only
> lead and cast" is considerable].

Go for it, Graham. It would amuse us all...

Andy in Portland

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Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:01:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:01:47 -0500
From: Mike Mudrey <mgmudrey-AT-
mhtc.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010619190024.00a24ec0-AT-
mhtc.net>
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Maybe I missed something here....

I though that dancing was a social experience and not just a physical 
experience.  I happen to enjoy standing out at the top or bottom on triple 
minors...clears my mind and prepares me to reenter the dance, provides an 
opportunity to chat with my partner, provides and opportunity to watch 
other dances for ideas, styles, etc.

I feel that one of the goals of dancing is to minimize the number standing 
out who wish to dance.  As such duple minors dances leave out at the 
maximum 1 dancer (without a partner), two-couple dances 3 individuals, 
triple minor dances 1 dancer (without a partner), three couple dances 5 
dancers, etc.  At least in Madison, we would then dance Team B so that the 
missing individuals could dance.

I was not aware that we were restricted to music being played only 7 times 
through (or eight or six).  Most callers that I know have the music played 
so that the top couple in a line dances active to the bottom, and inactive 
back to the top.  The band plays until this is accomplished.  With recorded 
music, we merely recue the music and dance from where the previous ended.

Mike Mudrey

dance connections for Madison, Wisconsin
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/dances.htm


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:01:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010620000154.4250.qmail-AT-
web3306.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com> wrote:
> There was a profile of her in The New Yorker, which was
> replicated in CDSS News, #97, Nov-Dec, 1990.  There was also
> an "In Memoriam" issue, #26, May 1979. I haven't summoned the
> energy yet to go look for these & don't remember much
off-hand. 
> 
> For those of us who remember her as a short, stout, sometimes
> frightening figure (well, she frightened me!), rather like a
> fiercer Dame Margaret Rutherford, I find it interesting to
> note that in her youth she was pretty, slim, petite and
> apparently light-hearted.  Novelist Elsie J. Oxenham, who
> characterized Sharp variously as "The Prophet" or "The
> Director," characterized Gadd as "Little Robin," because she
> was so bright and chirpy and fun.
> 

I seem to remember hearing a story about her and Douglas Kennedy
(and I assume others) skinny dipping in Round Pond. That was an
after dance pastime of many people over the years. One year it
was very warm and the skinny dipping occured by the Camphouse in
Long Pond as well. Jim Morrison took his theree hole pipe out to
the float and there was Morris dancing on the float. Up a double
and splash...

Andy in Portland

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Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:37:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:35:17 -0400
From: Maryn McKenna <mmckenna-AT-
mindspring.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010619203428.00af3b30-AT-
mindspring.com>
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At 05:01 PM 6/19/01 -0700, Andrew Peterson wrote:
>... skinny dipping in Round Pond. That was an
>after dance pastime of many people over the years.

was?

maryn

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:43:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:43:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <ae.1699a719.286175fb-AT-
aol.com>
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Marian said

>While we're talking about unwritten histories and whatnot, I wonder if
>anyone can tell me a little more about May Gadd.  I've heard a rumor that
>she was a lesbian (or bisexual, I don't know which), and seeing as it's
>Gay
>Pride Month, I thought I'd find out if anyone knew yea or nay on this.
>(When I'm at the Dyke March on Saturday I can go around proudly telling
>people about her . . . and be met with a blank stare, no doubt, but it'll
>give me satisfaction, anyway.)
>
>In the larger picture, does anyone know any other biographical stuff about
>her?  All  I ever see is "came to America to teach, blah blah blah, and
>I'd
>love to know more.

You know, I heard that rumor from Ed Wilfert (the Pinewoods archivist, for 
those who don't know him) but without any particulars, like whether it was 
common knowledge, as I gather it was that Phillip Merrill was gay.   

Random antecdote: I was sorting through a cabinet of books and games in 
Pinecones last fall, and found an American photography annual from the 50's 
or early 60's, which was inscribed to her from Phillip Merrill and someone 
else, I forget the name.  

But, yes, what else about her?  What did she do for a living?   How did she 
hook up with Sharp in the first place?

And Allison said

>Novelist Elsie J.
>Oxenham, who characterized Sharp variously as "The Prophet" or "The
>Director," characterized Gadd as "Little Robin," because she was so
>bright and chirpy and fun.

Okay, okay, before anyone else says it:

And thus the much-loved dance Gadd Robin?

But seriously...

So characterized her where?  In a novel?   


Nilos the inquiring mind
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:28:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:25:48 -0400
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities duplicates
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <200106200228_MC3-D675-B98D-AT-
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Message text written by Torbin Zimmerman
>Gene referred to, "key distributors like...Cotswold Music". Well, that
stimulated me to check their website where I discovered that the catalog
hasn't been updated since 1998 and the latest catalog update is dated
August 1999.

Are they still in business?

<

Cotswold Music are certainly still in business, and I always find them
knowledgable and quick to respond.

I've sent them a copy of Torbin's message and I hope this will prompt them
to update their website!

Colin Hume

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:39:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:39:44 +0100
From: Trevor Monson <tmonsont-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the Math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <007301c0f964$e7d7cfa0$019801d4-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Who cares? (Surely it all depends on how many people actually get up to
dance?)

But the way I see it is if you start near any end you get more "chance"
to dance as a 1, 2 & 3 - with a bit of standing around to watch and talk
at either end.
The "chance" being if you start near the top as a 2 or 3  you will end
up as a 1, and if you start as a 1 near the bottom you will end up as
2's & 3's. So, unless you run inelegantly and ignorantly to the top of
the set, pushing everyone else out of the way on the way, you cannot
guarantee what your number is going to be!

If you do as Mike Murdy said:

<snip> ...I was not aware that we were restricted to music being played
only 7 times through (or eight or six).  Most callers that I know have
the music played so that the top couple in a line dances active to the
bottom, and inactive back to the top.  The band plays until this is
accomplished.  With recorded music, we merely recue the music and dance
from where the previous ended....<end snip>

If you have a modest number in a set, say only 15 couples, does this
mean he always dances the dance through somewhere between 30 and 45
times!! (And no, I'm not working this number out exactly.)
If so, do they get through more than 2 or 3 dances in an evening?

I think I'll stick with the uncertainty of not knowing if I'm going to
get a chance to dance all positions - especially if it is only danced 7
times (say), and not worrying about if I'm standing out for normally
well less than a minute at either end.  And if it does happen to be a
rubbish dance for you that time, let's hope the next one is better!!

Trevor Monson









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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:40:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K4Z0M85J8G9N5EKJ-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nilos quoted Allison:

> >Novelist Elsie J.
> >Oxenham, who characterized Sharp variously as "The Prophet" or "The
> >Director," characterized Gadd as "Little Robin," because she was so
> >bright and chirpy and fun.

And wrote:

> Okay, okay, before anyone else says it:

> And thus the much-loved dance Gadd Robin?

> But seriously...

> So characterized her where?  In a novel?

In a novel, or series of novels.  (I don't recall whether Gadd shows up in
more than one of the series, which was about English schoolgirls, starting
pre-WWI and going on through the War, with the girls growing up.  They have
some interaction with leading figures of the revival.)

Allison has written a short book on the subject, (which I read and found very
interesting, though not quite enough to make me seek out Oxenham's works):
Lighting the Fire:  Elsie J. Oxenham, The Abbey Girls, and the English Folk
Dance Revival  (Squirrel Hill Press, 1998)   

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 06:17:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:26:48 +1000
From: Aylwen <garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: "The Palindrome" - dance instructions
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <009e01c0f98c$a989ec60$4f7f09d2-AT-
earthly1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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In response to various queries from my posting last week about "The Lost
Dances of Earthly Delights", I have posted up a copy of "The Palindrome", a
progressive circle dance written by John Garden, together with a link to the
MP3 file of the music he wrote for it. Please do let us know what you
think - I shall be posting other dances up as time passes - John writes in
many different styles. I am trying to get him to slow down - in the middle
of painting our new studio he was humming a new hambo tune!
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Palindrome.html &
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/13.MP3

Many thanks for all the book orders - we are building a dance studio at the
moment and are busy organising a series of monthly public dances, dance
workshops and a grand Christmas ball for later this year.
Also, all of the dances and music in the production are original and new
works. John has a passion to make all of his dances flow - and has surely
succeeded!
Warmest Regards, Aylwen Garden
aylwen.garden-AT-
earthlydelights.com.au
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:09:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010620150931.27279.qmail-AT-
web13804.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Thomas Bending <t.bending-AT-
mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Re the question of whether "you get more dancing time
in
> > a triple minor progression....
> >
> > David Barnett gave a general argument....
> >
> > Victoria Bestock analysed....
> >
> [Apologies for massive pruning in both cases]


Thank you so much for the massive pruning. 

There is usually no need to copy previous postings; doing
so just makes for unwieldiness. I hate one list I'm on in
which there are copies of copies of copies (of copies of
copies). It makes so much more sense to select out just
what you want to comment on. It's easier for the rest of us
to understand what you mean.

Thanks,
Lyrl



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Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:39:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010620173957.12835.qmail-AT-
web3302.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Lyrl Catherine Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you so much for the massive pruning. 
> 
> There is usually no need to copy previous postings; doing
> so just makes for unwieldiness. I hate one list I'm on in
> which there are copies of copies of copies (of copies of
> copies). It makes so much more sense to select out just
> what you want to comment on. It's easier for the rest of us
> to understand what you mean.

On the other hand, sometimes people prune out the entire
previous message such that it is hard tell what they are
commenting about. Maybe they are understoood by one person, but
why not just e-mail that person instead of the whole group.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:48:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:15:52 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010620.144627.-78581.15.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Tideswell-AT-
aol.com writes:

> >While we're talking about unwritten histories and whatnot, I wonder 
> if
> >anyone can tell me a little more about May Gadd.  I've heard a 
> rumor that
> >she was a lesbian (or bisexual, I don't know which), and seeing as 
> it's
> >Gay
> >Pride Month, I thought I'd find out if anyone knew yea or nay on 
> this.
> >(When I'm at the Dyke March on Saturday I can go around proudly 
> telling
> >people about her . . . and be met with a blank stare, no doubt, but 
> it'll
> >give me satisfaction, anyway.)
> >
> You know, I heard that rumor from Ed Wilfert (the Pinewoods 
> archivist, for 
> those who don't know him) but without any particulars, like whether 
> it was 
> common knowledge, as I gather it was that Phillip Merrill was gay.   
> 
Now THAT's interesting, as I can't remember attending any gay-friendly
English dances to date. In fact, several years ago, when I suggested to
the CDSS chapter in my city that sponsors the dances that they bost
attendan ce by doing some outreach to the large gay community here, it
went over lke the proverbial lead balloon.  I wonder what their reaction
would be if they knew that 2 particularly important figures in the
Gnalish dance revival weren't straight!

Dawn Culbertson


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Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:38:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:40:25 -0400
From: bobalonia-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010620.184028.-175443.0.bobalonia-AT-
juno.com>
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The special event announcements are particularly anticipated and the main
reason for me being on this list.  The explanation of dances/moves/math
are interesting and one of the other motivations for participating.  The
discussions on music, software and mediums are useful and interesting. 
Some of the crazy things we Americans do and comments have been extremely
humorous.

However;  I find the SPECULATION on a person's sexual preference
inappropriate.  

Bob Jo Bob


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:48:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:48:05 -0400
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B756AE74.A86%joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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on 6/20/01 6:40 PM, bobalonia-AT-
juno.com at bobalonia-AT-
juno.com wrote:

> I find the SPECULATION on a person's sexual preference
> inappropriate.

I agree...inappropriate and even offensive, and I've noticed how easily the
speculation has turned mysteriously into statement of fact, unsupported by
evidence other than word of mouth at most.

let's get back to topic, please.

Maybe ideas of how to handle severe overcrowding (say, almost twice the
number who could dance comfortably)?  We agonized over that last week, with
rumors of lots of people coming to our "Across the Atlantic" weekend.  It
did get crowded in two of our halls, but not as bad as we feared, thank
goodness.  How have any of you handled that problem in the past?

Our committee's decision (developed in consultation with Brad Foster who was
scheduled to call Sat night, but made by the committee ahead of time) was
that once we reached a certain number of dancers in the hall on Sat night,
we would consult and probably close the dance because of safety
considerations.  

It was an awful thought, that we might have to turn people away! and we
considered making exceptions for people who had driven long distances, or
for long-time loyal locals.  In the end, we decided on a "first come, first
served" policy, accompanied by a warning to the people at the Sat afternoon
workshop to arrive early.  (they did!)

Philippe Callens and Brad were terrific, BTW, not only with crowd-handling
but with great teaching, calling, & programming, and we had fabulous numbers
of delightful dancers in attendance...a different, but overlapping,
collection of people at each of the three events, which was kind of neat.

Joyce Crouch
Amherst MA




  

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Joyce B Crouch                Telephone: 413-549-4123
95 Pulpit Hill Road                 Fax: 413-549-7096
Amherst MA 01002                  email: joycecrouch-AT-
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:23:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:23:07 -0500
From: Roger Diggle <diggle-AT-
bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the Math
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010621012306.MPAL21505.chruser-AT-
[204.71.145.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Trevor Monson wrote:  

>Who cares? (Surely it all depends on how many people actually get up to
>dance?)

I do... I call for contra dancers, mostly, and they are probably 
already a bit shocked to be asked to form triple minor sets.  To 
dance The Market Lass without ever dancing the active role is more 
shocking yet.  I want dancers to have a good experience with these 
dances so they'll be interested in trying them again.  So, if I'm 
not in a position to get the 8, 7, or 9 couple sets that I like, 
I usually call something else.  

If I were calling for ECD, I probably wouldn't worry about the 
above issues as much.  On the other hand, when I dance ECD, I 
often entertain the wish that the dances would run a bit longer.

Roger Diggle

>But the way I see it is if you start near any end you get more "chance"
>to dance as a 1, 2 & 3 - with a bit of standing around to watch and talk
>at either end.
>The "chance" being if you start near the top as a 2 or 3  you will end
>up as a 1, and if you start as a 1 near the bottom you will end up as
>2's & 3's. So, unless you run inelegantly and ignorantly to the top of
>the set, pushing everyone else out of the way on the way, you cannot
>guarantee what your number is going to be!
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:57:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:58:03 -0400
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Doing the Math
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000701c0f9f5$9b65d5e0$c5981c3f-AT-
MITRE.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Does anyone remember the discussions, from about a year ago, about doing
"sets" of dances?  My memory is vague on this, but I think we talked about
folks in Jane Austen's time dancing with the same partner for two dances in
a row, the two dances making up a "set" of dances, after which there would
be a short break.

The Don Armstrong Contra Dance Weekend in York, Pa. (Lloyd Shaw Foundation
folks), held over the long Thanksgiving weekend, conducts its English and
contra dance sessions this way.  Folks line up, do one dance, and stay where
they are when the music ends.  They start the next dance from these
positions.  The lines are fairly short (10 couples, I'd say) and no one
dance runs very long.  You can see where this is heading -----  for example,
if you start as 1st couple at the very top in the first dance, you'll likely
be a 2d couple throughout the second dance, etc., etc.

It's a nice way to balance activity and inactivity, although I've never
tried doing this at any dance I've led, or even suggested it to other
leaders.  My own preferences are more akin to Mike Mudrey's and Trevor
Monson's.  I don't mind being inactive in some dances, and I assume that
I'll be satisfied with the balance of active/inactive roles over the course
of the evening.

Pat

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From: Tideswell-AT-
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Subject: Re: The Math
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Well!  This is all very intriguing.  I wasn't quite aware that we counted so 
many avid number-jugglers in our...er...set.

So, a question to those of you who are thataway inclined:  Are the 
mathematical and geometrical properties of ECD prominent amongst its 
pleasures for you?  

If so, can you expound moderately on said joys?....in words of one syllable 
or less, please.

Nilos
who is largely innumerate despite being able to calculate in base 16 
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From: CF1125-AT-
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Subject: Re: The Math
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In a message dated 6/21/01 5:18:56 AM, Tideswell-AT-
aol.com writes:

<< So, a question to those of you who are thataway inclined:  Are the 
mathematical and geometrical properties of ECD prominent amongst its 
pleasures for you?  

If so, can you expound moderately on said joys?....in words of one syllable 
or less, please. >>

Much as I like math, its joys and that of dance do not, for me, mix. A set 
of, say, three pairs does make a "group" in a math sense, as may the set of 
moves of the pairs, but though that's nice when one writes a dance, it does 
not add to the joy when I do it. I move to the sounds of the tune with no 
sense that be it a square, a round, a line, or a pair of pairs, I will find 
my bliss from the shape of the set. Not that one might not, of course, but I 
just don't.  
How's that? 

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:45:17 -0700
From: Marian Phillips <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
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> on 6/20/01 6:40 PM, bobalonia-AT-
juno.com  wrote:
>
> > I find the SPECULATION on a person's sexual preference
> > inappropriate.<

and Joyce Crouch responded:
> I agree...inappropriate and even offensive<

Well, Bob and Joyce, I'm happy that you raised this issue.  I know for a
fact that you're dead wrong, and this gives us a chance to discuss it.

Both of you clearly didn't grow up being told that your sexual preference
made you a monster, that almost no one existed who was like you, and that
the few who did were pathetic perverts who made no contribution to society.

That, however, is a common experience for gays and bisexuals, and one of the
ways  we survive (and combat) this overwhelming cultural denial of our very
existence is to find out, and point out, whenever we can, the existence of
gays and bisexuals who have made a positive mark in the world.

Homophobia is a truly ugly, destructive thing, and most of the people who
indulge in it do so because they're convinced that gays and bisexuals have
absolutely no place in *their* world, that they don't know any of them, and
have no reason to be grateful to them for any cultural blessings.

I have been physically attacked, in San Francisco -- San Francisco! --
simply for walking out of a lesbian bar, and you can bet that the young man
who attacked me had the attitude I've described.

However, homophobia takes other forms as well, which brings us to the ECD
community.

When a member of this list can say:

>> I can't remember attending any gay-friendly English dances to date. In
fact, several years ago, when I suggested to the CDSS chapter in my city
that sponsors the dances that they boost attendance by doing some outreach
to the large gay community here, it went over like the proverbial lead
balloon<<

that's a clear symptom of homophobia in the ECD community.

Here's another:  Gender balancing at balls.

Gender balancing is, on a practical level, misogynist, because there tend to
be more women than men who want to go to balls, so it's usually women who
end up getting excluded.

However, gender balancing is, in addition, a homophobic concept to the core.
It denies the possibility that men might want to dance with men and that
women might want to dance with women.  It doesn't just advertise the
heterosexual boy/girl pairing; it tries to enforce it.

It's an annoyance to the women who just want to dance and don't care which
role they take or which gender their partners are.  It's a lot more than an
annoyance to gay/bisexual women and men who want to dance with people
they're romantically involved with (or might want to be romantically
involved with).  They're informed right up front that same-sex partnering is
not welcomed in the ECD community, and that therefore *they* are not
welcome.  That's what gender-balancing means.

It is my impression that very little, if any, outreach is being done toward
the gay and bisexual community by ECD organizations.  I'd be extremely
interested in hearing about any.

And I'd also still like to know if May Gadd was gay.

Marian Phillips

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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:54:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: Thomas Bending <t.bending-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Math
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Tideswell-AT-
aol.com wrote
> So, a question to those of you who are thataway inclined:  Are the 
> mathematical and geometrical properties of ECD prominent amongst its 
> pleasures for you?  

and Carl Friedman replied

> Much as I like math, its joys and that of dance do not, for me, mix. A set 
> of, say, three pairs does make a "group" in a math sense, as may the set of 
> moves of the pairs, but though that's nice when one writes a dance, it does 
> not add to the joy when I do it. I move to the sounds of the tune with no 
> sense that be it a square, a round, a line, or a pair of pairs, I will find 
> my bliss from the shape of the set. Not that one might not, of course, but I 
> just don't.  

I agree that using the group theory of the dance is nice when writing 
one, and it can be useful when walking through. Although it's not a 
major factor while dancing (for me) it's still relevant. For example 
some finite-set progression patterns mean that you dance with some 
people twice and others not at all - these always seem a bit 
unsatisfactory to me, I suspect for group-theory-type reasons.

Certainly geometrical and timing aspects of ECD are important parts 
of its pleasure for me. The way different figures can flow and mesh 
with each other; the way a longways set clicks into one long line of 
couples halfway through a poussette; the way a square set sweeps 
into a 4-ladies chain; arriving for a move with my partner at exactly 
the moment she needs me to be there, and vice versa; all these are 
examples of the way geometry and timing are important and 
enjoyable.

Mathematics, music and dancing all involve the study and use of 
pattern, which is one reason I enjoy all of them. 

[Apologies to Tideswell for abandoning the one-syllable rule]

In my last post in this thread I discussed one small aspect of triple-
minor dances in some detail, and some people seemed to take that to 
mean that I thought that only that aspect was important: far from the 
case. So, let me emphasise that geometry and timing are only *some 
of* the reasons I enjoy ECD. There are many others (eg "a chance to 
grapple with members of the opposite sex", as a female friend once 
memorably put it) but that's another thread.

Thomas Bending

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From: MEIER-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
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<description of homophobia inside and outside the ECD community snipped>

Marion speaks for me in this regard (underscore the part about it being an
annoyance to the women who just want to dance). I keep forgetting that at least
some of the gender-balance issues stem from homophobia, though I'm sure that
it's also an outgrowth of "we have always done it this way." (Not that the two
aren't often related.)  

Regarding the specific inquiry about May Gadd, it's of mild interest to me as
personal information about a historical figure.  It doesn't strike me as
particularly offensive at this late date.  I suppose I view it in the same
light I'd view a stack of heretofore-sealed historical papers.  I do realize
that it's hard for some people to hear about the sexuality of people they know,
especially their elders. But 20+ years after her passing, we should probably
expect some emotional distance.


>It is my impression that very little, if any, outreach is being done toward
>the gay and bisexual community by ECD organizations.  I'd be extremely
>interested in hearing about any.

Marion (and more relevantly, Nilos) perhaps you'd be interested to know that
the SF Bay Times* is one of the places I'm recommending that BACDS focus future
paid advertising, as well as calendar listings.  At least as of last year, when
I did the rate survey, it was one of the best deals around.  Paid ads probably
will come up at tonight's Board meeting, at least for discussion. Vote early
and often! :-)


Vanessa

* - Non-locals: this is a Bay Area LGBT biweekly tabloid
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:45:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
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Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Marian quoted:

> > on 6/20/01 6:40 PM, bobalonia-AT-
juno.com  wrote:
> >
> > > I find the SPECULATION on a person's sexual preference
> > > inappropriate.<

> and Joyce Crouch responded:
> > I agree...inappropriate and even offensive<

and wrote:

> Well, Bob and Joyce, I'm happy that you raised this issue.  I know for a
> fact that you're dead wrong, and this gives us a chance to discuss it.

It's possible to put another construction on this.  (I'm taking off my 
list-owner hat for this discussion, by the way; no extra claim to correctness
about inappropriateness or otherwise.)

If their position is that speculating that somebody was a lesbian - in
particular - is inappropriate, or that it's a derogatory speculation, then 
they are just wrong.  

However, I'm willing to cut quite a lot of slack for people who knew May
Gadd only as a formidable old lady, and are made uncomfortable by
discussion of her sexuality, whatever it was.

I mean, none of us knew Catherine the Great, so we don't get squicked
(a technical term for a grossed-out reaction to certain sexual kinks) by 
speculation or reportage about her preferences in horses, royal guardsmen,
or John Paul Jones.

But we likely knew our grandmothers, and for many of us there's something
squickful about the idea of them as sexual beings, especially if we have 
to hear any details.

So I can understand people who just don't want to hear discussion about May
Gadd's sexuality, whether it's speculation that she died a virgin or that 
she had a bunch of gentlemen friends or that she was gay (none of which, 
I say again, are derogatory speculations).  If that's what this is, then
okay.

But if they think that Miss Gadd's name is being blackened by a suspicion
that she might have been queer, then that is homophobic, and it is dead 
wrong.

(I can't actually recall much discussion about people's personal lives on 
the list to date, especially not of people other list members might have 
known.  Miss Gadd only died in 1979; quite a few list members have been
dancing longer than 22 years.)


> Both of you clearly didn't grow up being told that your sexual preference
> made you a monster, that almost no one existed who was like you, and that
> the few who did were pathetic perverts who made no contribution to society.

> That, however, is a common experience for gays and bisexuals, and one of the
> ways  we survive (and combat) this overwhelming cultural denial of our very
> existence is to find out, and point out, whenever we can, the existence of
> gays and bisexuals who have made a positive mark in the world.

> Homophobia is a truly ugly, destructive thing, and most of the people who
> indulge in it do so because they're convinced that gays and bisexuals have
> absolutely no place in *their* world, that they don't know any of them, and
> have no reason to be grateful to them for any cultural blessings.

> I have been physically attacked, in San Francisco -- San Francisco! --
> simply for walking out of a lesbian bar, and you can bet that the young man
> who attacked me had the attitude I've described.

> However, homophobia takes other forms as well, which brings us to the ECD
> community.

> When a member of this list can say:

> >> I can't remember attending any gay-friendly English dances to date. In
> fact, several years ago, when I suggested to the CDSS chapter in my city
> that sponsors the dances that they boost attendance by doing some outreach
> to the large gay community here, it went over like the proverbial lead
> balloon<<

> that's a clear symptom of homophobia in the ECD community.

I've been delighted to see more "out" gays at BACDS events in the last
several years, and I hope we'll see more.  BACDS (of which I am chair) is
working to get its outreach act together, and I think it would be
foolish of us to neglect outreach to the Bay Area's gay community. 
(Although I would have trouble suggesting that our regular dances - which
tend to have some same-sex couples out of preference or necessity, and
don't do gender-balancing - go much further in becoming gay-friendly;
possibly we could consider starting some gender-free dances as well.)

> Here's another:  Gender balancing at balls.

> Gender balancing is, on a practical level, misogynist, because there tend to
> be more women than men who want to go to balls, so it's usually women who
> end up getting excluded.

Although it's often women who ask for it, or who complain if it's not
enforced.  (Which doesn't mean I support it.  While my feelings aren't
strong enough to boycott gender-balanced events, I certainly use whatever
influence I have on events I'm involved in running to remove or minimize
gender-balancing, so Fall Weekend (which I've managed or co-managed for ten
years) does no gender-balancing, and English Week has a somewhat relaxed
gender-balance.)  My big objection is simply that it's discriminatory (and, 
heaven knows, unwelcoming).

> However, gender balancing is, in addition, a homophobic concept to the core.
> It denies the possibility that men might want to dance with men and that
> women might want to dance with women.  It doesn't just advertise the
> heterosexual boy/girl pairing; it tries to enforce it.

I don't think that's the _intention_, although that's the effect.  I still
see same-sex dancing at gender-balanced events.

> It's an annoyance to the women who just want to dance and don't care which
> role they take or which gender their partners are.  It's a lot more than an
> annoyance to gay/bisexual women and men who want to dance with people
> they're romantically involved with (or might want to be romantically
> involved with).  They're informed right up front that same-sex partnering is
> not welcomed in the ECD community, and that therefore *they* are not
> welcome.  That's what gender-balancing means.


> It is my impression that very little, if any, outreach is being done toward
> the gay and bisexual community by ECD organizations.  I'd be extremely
> interested in hearing about any.

BACDS needs to do more.  If you have ideas I'm sure our Outreach Committee
(likely to be officially formed tomorrow night at the board meeting,
actually, and then needing to be staffed up) will want to hear about them.

> And I'd also still like to know if May Gadd was gay.

I'll have to admit to being curious about this myself.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:22:59 +0100
From: Trevor Monson <tmonsont-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Math
To: ECD-AT-
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Nilos wrote:

> Well!  This is all very intriguing.  I wasn't quite aware that we
counted so
> many avid number-jugglers in our...er...set.
>
> So, a question to those of you who are thataway inclined:  Are the
> mathematical and geometrical properties of ECD prominent amongst its
> pleasures for you?
>
> If so, can you expound moderately on said joys?....in words of one
syllable
> or less, please.


Well, I'm not sure if it is the maths or the figures that count. (no pun
intended when I wrote that!)

What I find confusing is the sudden realisation, in a dance that you
are changing starting positions and partners, that one part of the dance
is always with the same person - and I can't always work out why!!
An example of this "The Tom Penny Triad" by Colin Wallace. (This is in
his book of dances "Cumbriana Jones and the Theatre of Doom" - a book
well worth having if you want to try some "different" ECD type dances.)
I am not trying to work anything out mathematically, but my brain hurts
when I try to work out why I keep getting back to that same person.

Trevor Monson. (who is sorry that some words were more than one syllable
long)








_________________________________________________________

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Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:40:45 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:15:52 -0400 "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
writes:
>. . .  several years ago, when I suggested to the CDSS chapter in my
city that sponsors the dances that they bost attendan ce by doing some
outreach to the large gay community here, 
> it  went over lke the proverbial lead balloon.  I wonder what their 
reaction
> would be if they knew that 2 particularly important figures in the 
Gnalish dance revival weren't >straight!

I'd make two points to my friend Dawn about the above posting:

1.  As far as I know, any lack of response to her suggestion that "the
CDSS chapter in her city" reflected not any anti-gay bias but the general
disarray of our outreach efforts.  I agree with her that that community
should be included in our outreach efforts.

2.  It has not been established, in this thread, that anybody was gay.  I
believe the thread started with an "is it true question" and went from
there--with no answers given.

Mike Franch
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:38:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.33.0106210906200.93912-100000-AT-
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Alan Winston wrote a thoughtful answer to many
commetns that have come through recently:

> Miss Gadd only died in 1979; quite a few list members have been
> dancing longer than 22 years.)

I'm one of them -- started English dancing in 1956.  Knew Gay (when the
word did not have its current one-meaning-only definition) for voer
twenty-five years and was never in a conversation about her sexual
preferences.  I did know that Phil and Jimmy lived together happily and
comfortably, did not doubt their relationship, and was glad that they
could manage in that unfriendly world.  They didn't discuss it;
and, therefore, those around them didn't either.

How about some historical perspective?

In the 19th century and early 20th, when a woman married, she took her
husband's name -- and lost her own.  I have a copy of my
great-grandmother's death notice in the newspaper.  She is Mrs. jacob.
there is no mention of her first name.  There was no need to -- she was
married.  When her husband died, Amy Beech, circa WWI, published her
musical compositions under her maiden name.  She had stopped giving
recitals and publishing her music when she married  -- and could not use
her husband's name for her creative efforts even after he died.  Fanny
Mendelssohn is another example.  She was uneducated, except for what her
brother taught her and what she overheard during his lessons.

Between WWI & II, social attitudes had progressed a bit (my bias).  A
socially accepted woman could work OR she could get married.  She still
used her husband's name, but others knew her given name.  If a woman
teacher married, she was automatically terminated from her job.  With a
shortage of teachers during WWII, this practise gradually ceased.  Before
I get lots of email disagreeing with me and giving examples -- two major
groups of women did not appear to fit into this way of life, the woman who
stopped taking money for her "career" and became a volunteer in the same
field and the woman who dropped to near-poverty level and had to work.

When I was growing up, it was still with the belief that the two options
were marriage or a career.  I started college with the returning WWII
veterans.  In my dorm, those older than me did not date, those younger
did.  I was very aware of the differences in attitude of the pre-war and
post-war generation.  In the course of the next ten years, social
attitudes changed so much that a late-1950s graduate could say that she
was married with a baby, had a job, and had written a book.

I hope I have explained more than why I never questioned any older woman's
sexual preferences.

Alan, you pushed my button on one other subject:
> > . . .gender balancing

Why don't the groups who advertise gender balancing ask the woman if they
dance on both sides of the line?  It's the women who won't dance except
with a man who keep the gender-balancing requirement there.  (I've asked
women who seem to be sitting out and been told that they only dance with a
male partner.)

And my husband dances on the other side when needed.  And doesn't ask to
change if two women are dancing together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
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From: "Albert A. Blank" <fandango-AT-
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Marian Phillips wrote (in part):

> Homophobia is a truly ugly, destructive thing, and most of the people who
> indulge in it do so because they're convinced that gays and bisexuals have
> absolutely no place in *their* world, that they don't know any of them, and
> have no reason to be grateful to them for any cultural blessings.

With which I agree totally. Dancing with partners of either sex is perfectly
accaptable to me. And in some venues where I have danced, men often outnumbered
women. An insistence on gender balance or on dancing only with members of the
opposite sex cuts people out of dancing. A stupid way to go.

> And I'd also still like to know if May Gadd was gay.

Why should you care? Anyhow, for the books, I knew Gay before the word,
"gay", changed its meaning. Her attitudes toward men, women and same-sex dance
partners were certainly not consistent with Gay being gay.

Ciao,

Albert Blank

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:04:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:43:32 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100302b757a498ecea-AT-
[140.186.55.131]>
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References: <B756AE74.A86%joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com> <008b01c0fa26$3c1cde40$02fc0140-AT-
default>

In Boston we have had a lavender dance for quite a while.  Graham can 
tell you just how long but it's coming up on, or just passed at least 
10 years.  The dance is well attended, has live music, has a variety 
of very enthusiastic callers and some of both the callers and dancers 
attend Boston's straight dance.  Recently both groups have begun a 
more concentrated effort at encouraging more interchange.  Some 
lavender callers call at the straight dance, some straight musicians 
have been mentoring the newer, less experienced musicians at the 
lavender dance.

The energy at the two events is different, as is the language.  The 
heterosexual provenance and assumptions, in the sources of the dance, 
are deeply ingrained.  Many years ago in Oregon, a concerted effort 
was made to create a gender neutral language for calling.  Both 
gender orientations understand and dance with equal facility to both 
sets of terms, although I'm not so certain about how comfortable the 
lavender dancers are with the intense heterosexuality of the straight 
calls.

There are some interesting philosophical questions, to me, inherent 
in this process.  It would be extremely difficult to talk about these 
questions without concern about homophobia intruding into the 
discussion.  The current social model of acceptance of diversity is 
moving our society beyond it and towards homogenization.   A more 
concentrated effort at making the straight dance comfortable for the 
lavender dancers, and the reverse, may lead to losses of things some 
may feel are essential to "their" dancing.

Just as the complete shift to crossed-over duples has created a 
terrible (to me) loss of skill, variety, historical understanding and 
repertoire for those who are part of the contra dance community, I 
anticipate that without great care and knowledge of the past 
something similar will happen to Boston's English Country Dance scene.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:47:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:49:48 -0700
From: Robin Hayden <robinhayden-AT-
earthlink.net>
Subject: wild speculation
To: ecd list <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Friends!

I entreat you not to willfully misunderstand each other.

Marian wrote:

>Both of you clearly didn't grow up being told...

You've leapt to a radical conclusion here.

I would not presume to speak either for Joyce or for Jo Bob, but I know
them both, and you have certainly misunderstood them.  My interpretation
of their objection is that *speculation* is in itself inappropriate.
The thread began with "I once heard a rumor," and has failed to offer
more enlightenment than that.  If anyone can offer real insight of *any*
kind into the (now historical) life of May Gadd, I'm sure we would all
be fascinated and possibly deeply moved.

Robin Hayden

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:37:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:37:11 -0400
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: wild speculation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <B7578CE7.A9F%joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>
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on 6/21/01 1:49 PM, Robin Hayden at robinhayden-AT-
earthlink.net wrote:

> My interpretation
> of their objection is that *speculation* is in itself inappropriate.
> The thread began with "I once heard a rumor," and has failed to offer
> more enlightenment than that.

Thank you, Robin, both for not presuming to speak for me and for explaining
my point so lucidly.  It was the capitalization of every letter in the word
"speculation" in Jo Bob's email that riveted my attention, clarified my
thinking, and prompted me to elaborate a bit on my distaste for a process
(public gossip) that tends to disregard truth.

> If anyone can offer real insight of *any*
> kind into the (now historical) life of May Gadd, I'm sure we would all
> be fascinated and possibly deeply moved.

Indeed.

Joyce Crouch 
Amherst, MA


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Joyce B Crouch                Telephone: 413-549-4123
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Amherst MA 01002                  email: joycecrouch-AT-
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================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:32:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Math
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In a message dated 6/21/01 4:56:33 AM, t.bending-AT-
mdx.ac.uk writes:

<< Certainly geometrical and timing aspects of ECD are important parts 
of its pleasure for me. The way different figures can flow and mesh 
with each other; the way a longways set clicks into one long line of 
couples halfway through a poussette; the way a square set sweeps 
into a 4-ladies chain; arriving for a move with my partner at exactly 
the moment she needs me to be there, and vice versa; all these are 
examples of the way geometry and timing are important and 
enjoyable. >>

I'll amend my original comments, which were more intended to reply 
monosyllabically than really to say anything of substance: I do enjoy the 
symmetries and shapes of some dances: e.g, how the longways set becomes 3 
couples in a line across the room in the middle of Scotch Cap, how the 
patterns change in Newcastle. But I probably appreciate it more when calling 
than when dancing. 
Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:03:00 PST
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106210925170.3231-100000-AT-
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Marian Phillips wrote:

> Here's another:  Gender balancing at balls.
> 
> Gender balancing is, on a practical level, misogynist, because there tend to
> be more women than men who want to go to balls, so it's usually women who
> end up getting excluded.

It's also, in my opinion, illegal.  This one isn't quite as cut-and-dried as
the copyright business, but I think there's a very strong argument to be made
that gender balancing is a prohibited form of sex discrimination, at least in
California.  Predictably, I will now make the argument.  Those who are tired
of lengthy legal discourses should probably be reaching for their 'N' keys.

The California law in question is usually called the Unruh Act, more
formally Civil Code section 51.  The relevant section reads:

    All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal,
    and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national
    origin, disability, or medical condition are entitled to the full and
    equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services
    in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever.

(Sorry, Marian: no "sexual preference" language.  It's been attempted,
repeatedly.  Write to your assemblycreature; what can I say?)

Anyway, the language "all business establishments of every kind whatsoever"
is pretty clearly intended to be interpreted as broadly as possible, and
the courts agree: in a case called Ibister v. Boys' Club of Santa Cruz
(1985) 40 Cal.3d 72, the California Supreme Court held that the Boys' Club
was a business establishment within the meaning of the Unruh Act, and was
not permitted to exclude girls.  There's text in Ibister that says,
basically, that anybody who charges money for their goods or services is a
"business establishment" under the Unruh Act.

The Court has also upheld Unruh Act challenges to such practices as
"ladies' days" at car washes (where women are offered discounts but men
aren't) and "ladies' nights" at bars (where women don't have to pay cover
charges but men do); see Koire v. Metro Car Wash (1985) 40 Cal.3d 24.
Significantly, the "ladies' night" ruling in Koire came despite arguments
by the bar owners that this practice benefits the gender supposedly
discriminated against.  The whole point of ladies' nights at bars, the
argument goes, is to increase the number of women in the bars; although it
looks like discrimination against men (since they have to pay a cover
charge that women don't), men are actually the winners because the end
result is a higher ratio of women to men.

Does this argument sound familiar at all to those of you who have
participated in the gender balancing debate?  Well, Justice Bird (the
author of the Koire opinion) wasn't impressed by it.  While the likes of
Justice Bird are not to be found on the present California Supreme Court
(and more's the pity, in my personal opinion), Koire is nevertheless the
law, and I doubt if you'd find many Supreme Court justices who would buy
the argument that it's ok to exclude women from dance events simply because
that way the women who *are* allowed in will have more men to choose from.
Sure, maybe a majority of women prefer having male partners; I don't know
that that's true, but let's say it is.  I have no doubt that a majority of
the guys in those bars thought it was really cool that the proportion of
women went up on ladies' night, too, but the law is that it was still
discrimination and still illegal.

Whether gender balancing is illegal under the Unruh Act pretty much turns
on whether dances are "business establishments."  That one's up for grabs,
but I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum that a court would find that
they are.  If they are, I think there's simply no question that they have
to provide "full and equal accommodations" to both sexes, and it seems to
me that that precludes gender balancing.

Federal law isn't quite so nice, incidentally.  Title VII of the Civil
Rights Act prohibits discrimination in places of public accommodation, but
only on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin"; nothing
in there about sex.  (42 U.S.C. section 2000a)  I believe this is one of
the things the ERA was supposed to fix, but honestly I'm a little hazy on
federal law on this issue.  And of course your mileage may vary in other
states, but in California, I'm pretty convinced that gender balancing is
against the law.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:06:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:08:01 -0700
From: Louise Pescetta and Dick Dolan <dolascetta-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002101c0fa8d$e027a080$95f5f7d1-AT-
oemcomputer>
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Hi there! Happy Summer Solstice!

We know there are a lot of workshops going on this summer, but there is
still space at Stanford, and we'd love to have you come for either the first
week, July 16-20, or both weeks, July 16-27.

Check out our website at:

http://www.mindfulnewmedia.com/baroquedance/

or send me email if you have questions.

Cheers!
Louise Pescetta



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:06:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Marian Phillips <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net> wrote:

> When a member of this list can say:

(quoting Dawn Culbertson:) 
> >> I can't remember attending any gay-friendly English dances to
> date. In
> fact, several years ago, when I suggested to the CDSS chapter in my
> city
> that sponsors the dances that they boost attendance by doing some
> outreach
> to the large gay community here, it went over like the proverbial
> lead balloon.  I wonder what their reaction would be if they knew >
that 2 particularly important figures in the
> English dance revival weren't straight!<<
> 
> that's a clear symptom of homophobia in the ECD community.


That's a clear symptom of one individual's particular interpretation
of certain events, and nothing more.  I object to it being used to
characterize the ECD community as homophobic.  I know many of the
people being referred to, and the insinuation that they are
homophobes who would be shocked and dismayed to learn that leading
historical figures in the English dance community were gay is
completely false.

The lack of enthusiasm for Dawn's particular suggestion is hardly
prima facie evidence of bigotry.  There are many other possible
reasons for that response.  For instance, I note that the lack of
enthusiasm Dawn described was to her suggestion to the dance
organizers that "THEY" conduct outreach in the gay community.  I
don't see anything about opposition to her undertaking such efforts
herself. I can't help wondering if the lack of enthusiasm had to do
with the "here's my idea, you do the work" approach.  Personally, I
agree that there should be more outreach to the gay community.  I
also think there should be more outreach to the African-American
community and Latino community and other ethnic minorities, who are
shockingly under-represented in country dance, as well as to families
with young children, and college and high school students, who we are
going to need to recruit if this movement is going to continue.  Do I
think any of that is going to happen anytime soon?  Definitely not
here, unless I receive an unexpected inheritance.  The fact is
everyone  I know has too much work, is overextended, overcommitted
and exhausted.  This applies particularly to those who are the most
active in the dance leadership, because they're the ones already
doing the most.  Frankly, I'm amazed that we manage to get dances
programmed and run at all.  And outreach is a whole lot more than
dumping a bunch of fliers somewhere.  It takes creative approaches to
connecting with groups and making them aware of us, and solid,
continuous, sustained effort to build a core of committed dancers
with a momentum that will keep them coming.  Most of the time the
result is a brief flurry of interest that burns out in a very short
time.  Anyone who thinks that lack of outreach to a particular group
is prima facie evidence of bigotry toward that group is encouraged to
take on the effort personally, and rethink their position.

As to the lack of experience of "gay-friendly" dances as a sign of
anything, I want to know what the standards are for a dance to appear
gay-friendly.  Does it take more than simply mutual acceptance and
respect between gays and straights?  I find it ironic to read
something like this immediately following a weekend of English
dancing in which dance literature clearly stated that people are free
to dance with partners of either sex, where despite a hetero majority
people did indeed dance in all possible gender configurations
including both gay and straight men together, where an openly gay
caller and leader in gender-neutral calling shared with me his
excitement at having been asked to call at the "mainstream" local
dance, and the organizers of that dance shared with me their delight
in having recruited that particular caller.  Not to mention a few
weeks after attending a wedding in North Carolina with an English
dance which was, according to the local tradition, gender-neutral.
The caller may have been gay, but I don't really know.  I don't think
anybody cared enough one way or another to wonder.  I do know that
some of the guests were, because the subject came up in regard to
bible-quoting gay-bashers. Do these events qualify as gay-friendly?

It is true that most English dances operate on a traditional
gendered-couple model - although not all, and that that model is less
inclusive of gays than some of us would like. But I think that is a
result of the majority's preferences, which are also historically
conditioned, rather than of overt antipathy to gays. Statistically
most dancers are straight which, for reasons I don't fully share,
means they prefer to dance with partners of the opposite sex. 
Despite that preference, all the dances I am familiar with have an
ethic that it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to dance with
members of either sex as they prefer, and that everyone is welcome,
irrespective of either sexual preference or dance partner preference.
Personally I find the idea of dancing only with members of one sex
ridiculously restrictive (especially given the partners I would lose
out on if I didn't dance with other women).  However, I understand
that others have a different preference.  I don't interpret their
preference to mean that they regard me as any less for being
bi-danceable.  I don't think it makes any more sense to assume that a
preponderant preference for dancing with partners of the opposite sex
is evidence of bias against gays than it would be to assume that the
preference to have sexual relations only with members of the opposite
sex is necessarily a sign of anti-gay bias.

I don't doubt that there some English dancers who are homophobic (and
some who are racists, and god help us even some who are republicans),
that the predominantly traditional-gendered orientation of most
events might not be uncomfortable to some gays, or that more couldn't
be done to improve straight-gay relations. But I don't see any
evidence presented for wide-spread homophobia.  On the contrary I see
the acceptance of same-sexed partners, the increasing relaxation of
gender roles, the active recruitment of openly gay callers and
leaders for "mainstream" dances and for gender-free sessions in
events such as NEFFA and NOMAD, and the great respect, and even
reverence for openly gay leaders, callers and musicians, as signs of
a community that supports diversity and is working to make itself
more open and welcoming to all members.

I completely agree with Marian that homophobia is ugly and
destructive.  I would add also that unfounded accusations of
homophobia or any other kind of bigotry, are equally ugly and
destructive, damaging to our community as a whole, and that people
ought to think long and hard before slinging them around without
something a lot more solid than what's been presented here as
evidence.




=====
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http://www.thebreastcancersite.com, to donate a mammogram to an underprivileged woman, at no cost to you.

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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:54:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:54:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender Balance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 6/21/01 5:42:14 AM EST, winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:

<< > However, gender balancing is, in addition, a homophobic concept to the 
core.
 > It denies the possibility that men might want to dance with men and that
 > women might want to dance with women.  It doesn't just advertise the
 > heterosexual boy/girl pairing; it tries to enforce it.
  >>

Well, this would all be well and good no matter what the reason for dancing 
with same sex partners.  However, all is not equitable in the land of dance.  
Women dance with women, for the most part, because they are "left over" in 
the mad scramble to pair up "boy-girl" style.  This is very different from 
"choosing" to dance with a woman -- though that happens as well.  I have had 
many a fine dance with another women -- dancing either role.  But rarely do 
men decide to dance with other men out of choice -- even when there are more 
men present than women.  I'm not saying it never happens, but it is the rare 
thing.  There may be all sorts of reasons for this -- which I'm sure we can 
all think of.  But until it becomes as common for men to dance with men as 
women dance with women -- the stigma will remain.  Especially if the balance 
is so off that some women never find a male partner (as has happened).  It's 
one thing to decide to do something, it's another to have no choice.

Although, personally, I think it makes women stronger dancers -- since so 
many of us dance the men's roles frequently, and, relatively speaking, few 
men dance the women's parts.  And we even manage to get through set dances of 
the all the same gender -- you have to think to do that!

Lysestrata comes to ECD....

All the women decide to dance with each other leaving the men to figure out 
what to do.

Suzanne // who loves doing the man's part in Wa' is Me 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:28:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:28:03 -0400
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: True Brit 2001
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.1.20010621180356.01951dd0-AT-
popserver.panix.com>
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References: <B756AE74.A86%joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com>

(Sorry to be so late getting this announcement posted--I've been more
bicoastal than usual lately)

True Brit, Country Dance New York's biannual English country dance benefit
weekend, takes place from October 5th through 8th, 2001, at Circle Lodge,
Hopewell Junction, NY.  The fundraiser helps keep CDNY afloat and attracts
an amazing, all-volunteer staff, this year including ALL of CDNY's regular
teachers, plus Brad Foster, Robert Moir, Sue Salmons, and Gary Roodman.
Ritual dance leaders include Yonina Gordon, Sarah Henry, Steve Howe, and
Meg Ryan.  Musicians include...  Oh heck, check the website, www.cdny.org,
or email me for a flyer.

CDNY members get priority registration till July 5th.  This is Kit's and my
last time as True Brit's organizers, and we expect a crowd.  If you want to
come (and we'd love to have you!), sign up soon!
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:44:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:44:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <114.a02353.2863d2dc-AT-
aol.com>
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Brava, Barbara!

Much food for thought -- and well put.

Suzanne
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:49:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:38:40 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010621.184721.-76399.6.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:40:45 -0400 franch-AT-
juno.com writes:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:15:52 -0400 "Dawn C. Culbertson" 
>
> I'd make two points to my friend Dawn about the above posting:
> 
> 1.  As far as I know, any lack of response to her suggestion that 
> "the
> CDSS chapter in her city" reflected not any anti-gay bias but the 
> general
> disarray of our outreach efforts.

I wish I could agree with that, but that's not the impression I got. 
What happened at that particular meeting was that someone brought up the
idea of how attendance at dances could be increased. I said that one way
we could do that was to do some outreach to the black and gay communities
in the city, since they're both quite large, and was met with a few
seconds of uncomfortable silence followed by someone changing the
subject. They obviously didn't want to hear about it. I agree that
outreach is currently rather disorganized but their unwillingness to even
talk about the issue rather angered me, considering the fact that
previous to that there had been a lot of warm, fuzzy talk about the close
bonds in the local dance community. Granted, that was a number of years
ago, and hopefully there are enough people in the group now who don't
feel that way.

> 2.  It has not been established, in this thread, that anybody was 
> gay.  I
> believe the thread started with an "is it true question" and went 
> from
> there--with no answers given.

You're right; I forgot the original posting was merely posing the
question about whether May Gadd was gay in the first place. On that, I
must plead complete ignrance. But considering the large number of gays
who made considerable contributions to the arts, it's certainaly a
possibility.

Dawn Culbertson
________________________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:49:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:56:41 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010621.184722.-76399.7.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:45:17 -0700 Marian Phillips <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
writes:
>
Marian--Thanks for your insightful comments.

> Both of you clearly didn't grow up being told that your sexual 
> preference
> made you a monster, that almost no one existed who was like you, and 
> that
> the few who did were pathetic perverts who made no contribution to 
> society.
> That, however, is a common experience for gays and bisexuals, and 
> one of the
> ways  we survive (and combat) this overwhelming cultural denial of 
> our very
> existence is to find out, and point out, whenever we can, the 
> existence of
> gays and bisexuals who have made a positive mark in the world.

And there certainly have been many in the arts-related fields--just a few
include Rudolf Nureyev, Tennessee Williams, Aaron Copland and Leonardo da
Vinci.

> 
> Gender balancing is, on a practical level, misogynist, because there 
> tend to
> be more women than men who want to go to balls, so it's usually 
> women who
> end up getting excluded.
> However, gender balancing is, in addition, a homophobic concept to 
> the core.
> It denies the possibility that men might want to dance with men and 
> that
> women might want to dance with women.  It doesn't just advertise the
> heterosexual boy/girl pairing; it tries to enforce it.

That's generally the impression I've gotten. The general attitude seems
to be that same-sex partnering is something you do only as a last resort
, that it's rather undesirable, and that gender balancing is "best."
Gender balancing was, until recently, also strictly practiced at many
dance camps such as Pinewoods, and I understand that for certain weeks it
was virtually impossible to get in if you were a single woman. I agree
that this is not only a form of discrimination but a sort of covert
homophobia.  Fortunately, I've noticed that this seems to be
disappearing. Pinewoods is either phasing out or has eliminated gender
balancing, and the three main balls in my area have also eliminated it.
And the sky hasn't fallen. :-)
> 
> It is my impression that very little, if any, outreach is being done 
> toward
> the gay and bisexual community by ECD organizations.  

I've heard of several gender-free dances here and there in the US plus
the "lavender dance" in Boston, but that's about it, and that's not
really very much.

> And I'd also still like to know if May Gadd was gay.

So would I!

Dawn Culbertson

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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:12:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:12:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Math
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <86.b87b80d.2864037e-AT-
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Nilos wrote:

 >So, a question to those of you who are thataway inclined: Are
 >the mathematical and geometrical properties of ECD prominent
 >amongst its pleasures for you?

Good question. And some good answers have already gone before, many
of which I will not repeat, although they apply to me. Let me add the
following anecdote, however:

Shortly after I started contradancing, I solved the Rubik's Cube.
The parallels are amazing. Anyone who knows their way around the
cube will recognize the beauty in the phenomenon where you take
two couples, send them down the center, turn them around singly
and bring them back up to place, and what do you know: They're
progressed!

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:13:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:13:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender Balance
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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web3302.mail.yahoo.com>
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> winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:
> << > However, gender balancing is, in addition, a homophobic
> > concept to the core. It denies the possibility that men
might
> > want to dance with men and that women might want to dance
> > with women.  It doesn't just advertise the heterosexual
> > boy/girl pairing; it tries to enforce it.  >>
> 
--- SFORDNYC-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> Well, this would all be well and good no matter what the
> reason for dancing with same sex partners.  However, all
> is not equitable in the land of dance.  Women dance with
> women, for the most part, because they are "left over" in 
> the mad scramble to pair up "boy-girl" style.  This is very
> different from "choosing" to dance with a woman -- though that
> happens as well.  I have had many a fine dance with another
> women -- dancing either role. But rarely do men decide to
> dance with other men out of choice -- even when there are
> more men present than women.  I'm not saying it never happens,
> but it is the rare thing.  There may be all sorts of reasons
> for this -- which I'm sure we can all think of.  But until it
> becomes as common for men to dance with men as women dance
> with women -- the stigma will remain.  Especially if the
> balance is so off that some women never find a male partner
> (as has happened).  It's one thing to decide to do something,
> it's another to have no choice.
> 
> Although, personally, I think it makes women stronger dancers
> -- since so many of us dance the men's roles frequently, and,
> relatively speaking, few men dance the women's parts.  And we
> even manage to get through set dances of the all the same
> gender -- you have to think to do that!
> 

Call it "homophobia" or whatever you like, but I would make bets
that most people who dance couple dances do prefer to dance with
the opposite gender. Last I knew, ECD was a couple dance,
although in sets with other couples rather than individually as
in Ballroom dance. I know women who won't apply to a ball if
there is no attempt made at gender balancing because they don't
want to spend most of the night sitting out. They prefer to
dance with men and they aren't as aggressive as the other women,
so they don't find partners easily. They find it tiresome to
always get stuck dancing with other women. I used to share a
house with one of these women. My other housemate was heard to
say more than once that when two women dance together, they are
dancing with the best partner in the house. I'll admit to having
some great dances with men, but I certainly prefer dancing with
women, besides I don't "follow" well. I've finally learned to
dance the women's part in the Hambo, although I've been able to
teach it for years. The problem was always that I wanted to
lead.

Years ago I was talking to someone about the Vintage Ball in New
Haven and was told that they didn't try to gender balance. for
some reason they seemed to get a lot of cancellations from women
at the last minute and anyone wait-listed usually got in. One
time we not only had a gender balance, but with Richard Powers
dancing we had an even number of couples for the opening
quadrille. Nobody sat it out.

Andy in Portland OR

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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:51:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:49:14 -0400
From: "Dawn C. Culbertson" <dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010621.224951.-76399.11.dcculb-AT-
juno.com>
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Barbara Ruth
<barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> writes:> 
> 
> That's a clear symptom of one individual's particular interpretation
> of certain events, and nothing more.  I object to it being used to
> characterize the ECD community as homophobic. 

I think you're misreading my posting. I did not say that I characterized
the ECD community as homophobic; that was another person's interpretation
of my statement. What I said was that in my own experience I can't
remember attending an English dance that I felt was gay-friendly. That
relates to my own personal experience alone. If other people out ther
have had more and better experiences along that line than me, great!

> The lack of enthusiasm for Dawn's particular suggestion is hardly
> prima facie evidence of bigotry.  There are many other possible
> reasons for that response.  For instance, I note that the lack of
> enthusiasm Dawn described was to her suggestion to the dance
> organizers that "THEY" conduct outreach in the gay community.  I
> don't see anything about opposition to her undertaking such efforts
> herself. I can't help wondering if the lack of enthusiasm had to do
> with the "here's my idea, you do the work" approach.  

Again, I did not intend my statement to be interpreted this way. What
happened was that I mentioned, at a general meeting, that it seemed to me
that the best way the organization could boost attendance at dances, etc.
was to do some outreach to two large but almost completely unrepresented
communities in the area--the African-American and the gay communities. I
had some ideas about how this could be done--I certainly didn't plan to
simply hand over the suggestion and have someone else do the work--and
was hoping to get some discussion on it from somewhere. But no one
responded at all, in either a postiive or negative way, except for a few
stares that suggested I was speaking in a language from another planet.


 

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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:28:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:28:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622032853.23361.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:
In reference to outreach efforts being needed to recruit
memebers of other groups into CDSS/ECD activities: 
> Do I think any of that is going to happen anytime soon? 
> Definitely not here, unless I receive an unexpected
> inheritance.  The fact is everyone I know has too much work,
> is overextended, overcommitted and exhausted. This applies
> particularly to those who are the most active in the dance
> leadership, because they're the ones already doing the most. 
> Frankly, I'm amazed that we manage to get dances programmed
> and run at all. And outreach is a whole lot more than dumping
> a bunch of fliers somewhere. It takes creative approaches to
> connecting with groups and making them aware of us, and solid,
> continuous, sustained effort to build a core of committed
> dancers with a momentum that will keep them coming. Most of
> the time the result is a brief flurry of interest that burns
> out in a very short time. Anyone who thinks that lack of
> outreach to a particular group is prima facie evidence of
> bigotry toward that group is encouraged to take on the effort
> personally, and rethink their position.

I have just this week seen first hand the results of burn-out on
two long established dance events. Paul McCullough has been
running a Contra in Portland for (I think he said) 17 years and
he is giving it up. The band "Jigsaw", which has played for Paul
over at least the last four years, is taking over running the
Third Saturday Contra, but even they are losing one of their
members. Clyde and Susan Curley are moving to the San Juan
Islands.  I also received notice a couple of days ago that this
will be the last year for Flying Cloud Academy running the
Vintage Dance Week in Cincinnati. Hopefully someone else in the
larger Vintage community will have the energy to take up the
challenge of continuing the tradition in a new venue. Last year
the people who were primarily responsible for the Scandinavian
Dance Week at Buffalo Gap decided that it would be their last
year and another group took up where they left off. I agree with
Barbara that the majority of people in leadership roles in their
local dance communities have enough work to do without someone
suggesting that "they" need to work harder. Local dances are
advertised in the papers, if the contact at the paper gets
around to putting it in the weekly calendar. In both Hartford
and Portland, I have found that the reason things don't get into
the paper is that one DANCE run by a bunch of volunteers isn't
considered as important as telling us about 35 ROCK concerts run
by moneymaking promoters. After all, where's the profit in ECD?

Several years ago there were some Contra dances held at Reed
College. I remember that Mary Devlin called some of them. I
don't remember them being particularly well attended by
students, although there were a few who subsequently came to the
regular Contra dances. I think there are two realities at work,
particularly on the younger population. One is the intrusion of
Rock & Roll into every bit of their lives at the exclusion of
other kinds of music (although some of them DO discover other
kinds of music and find them interesting). The second is that
our society is more a population of watchers than doers. How
many people outside of the dance community do you know who would
rather go DO something than stay at home and watch TV. I don't
know what your experience is, but over the years many workday
conversations among co-workers have centered around what was on
TV last night or the Football or Basketball game that people saw
over the weekend. Very few people I've known have talked about
going out anywhere, unless it's to a bar. One has to find the
people who DO things instead of the watchers.

Andy in Portland OR

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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:41:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net> wrote:
>  RE: Gender balancing:
> It's also, in my opinion, illegal.  This one isn't quite as
> cut-and-dried as the copyright business, but I think there's a
> very strong argument to be made that gender balancing is a
> prohibited form of sex discrimination, at least in California.
> ...The California law in question is usually called the Unruh
> Act, more formally Civil Code section 51.  The relevant
section
> reads:
> 
>     All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free
> and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color,
religion,
> ancestry, national origin, disability, or medical condition
are
> entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages,
> facilities, privileges, or services in all business
> establishments of every kind whatsoever.
> 
> ...Anyway, the language "all business establishments of every
> kind whatsoever" is pretty clearly intended to be interpreted
> as broadly as possible, and the courts agree: in a case called
> Ibister v. Boys' Club of Santa Cruz (1985) 40 Cal.3d 72, the
> California Supreme Court held that the Boys' Club was a
> business establishment within the meaning of the Unruh Act,
and
> was not permitted to exclude girls.  There's text in Ibister
> that says, basically, that anybody who charges money for their
> goods or services is a "business establishment" under the
Unruh
> Act.

So where does this leave the Boy Scouts and their anti-gay
policy, which unless I'm mistaken was upheld in the Federal
Supreme Court?

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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:32:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622043247.27984.qmail-AT-
web3303.mail.yahoo.com>
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> Marian Phillips wrote (in part):
> > And I'd also still like to know if May Gadd was gay.
> 
--- "Albert A. Blank" <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Why should you care? Anyhow, for the books, I knew Gay before
> the word, "gay", changed its meaning. Her attitudes toward
> men, women and same-sex dance partners were certainly not
> consistent with Gay being gay.

Not to mention the year that the Mummers Play at Berea Christmas
Country Dance School had a *woman* in it. I'd done it for years
in Accokeek with girls playing some of the parts and thought
nothing of it. But when Susan Murrow played one of the parts one
year at CCDS, there were some *looks* from both Gay and Ethel.

Andy in Portland

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Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:45:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:46:52 -0400
From: bobalonia-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622.004700.-110091.1.bobalonia-AT-
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Marian Phillips says

> 
> I have been physically attacked, in San Francisco -- San Francisco! 
>

This is clearly an indecent act, regardless of location, reason or the
more difficult to emotionally deal with, lack of reason.

You bring up some good points which should be addressed, such as gender
balancing.  Comments to come later as time permits, but for now I feel
the need to clarify myself.

You are correct in my current attitude is the result of my life
experience.  I am a Hospice volunteer and one of the things we do is
respect one's death. We are not to "mold" someone who is dying into our
beliefs/philosophy.  Sort of like the "Star Trek" concept not to
interfere with the development of alien cultures.  (I can hear some
Hospice people cringing at the analogy.)  I've participated in some
unique last moments which would be inappropriate for me to share with
anyone.  Why would you think so?  

Do you think it's because Hospice teaches us about the 1974 Right to
Privacy Act?  

I am one of a few fortunate people who were able to get to know his
Great-grandparents and knowing what prodigious change has taken place in
American culture.

May Gadd does not appear to have spoke publicly of her sexuality or lack
thereof.  Given her generation, I doubt she spoke of it privately. (1) 
Let us respect that.

Bob Jo Bob


1.  Of course this is just SPECULATION.  Yes, caps are significant.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:23:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:23:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622052317.1395.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not to mention the year that the Mummers Play at Berea
> Christmas Country Dance School had a *woman* in it. I'd
> done it for years in Accokeek with girls playing some
> of the parts and thought nothing of it. But when Susan
> Murrow played one of the parts one year at CCDS, there were
> some *looks* from both Gay and Ethel.
> 

I think that what I'm trying to bring out here in relation
to Gay was that there were (dare I use the word) TRADITIONS 
that were to be upheld. Of course there were women and men
dancing together in the same set in Morris classes, but I
do think that her preference in *performance* was that it
was a *men's* dance. I don't particularly remember anything
being said about men dancing the men's role and women 
dancing the women's roll, or about same-sex people dancing
together, but for the most part, I also don't remember 
people "crossing over" and dancing the other gender very 
often, even those that I know to be gay, unless there was 
a gender imbalance. I can't distictly remember *any* time 
that Gay danced on the men's side of the dance, unless she
was doing it in a teaching context, and even then she would
usually take the woman's place and have the man stay in the 
set.

Andy

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Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:46:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:46:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing...and gender, for that matter.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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Priscilla Burrage (may her tribe increase) said

>Why don't the groups who advertise gender balancing ask the woman if they
>dance on both sides of the line?

Or include a category "dancing as a man"?  That would solve the problem, 
would it not?  (And maybe there are men who would like the option to attend 
events in the category "dancing as a woman" who would thereby be encouraged.) 
 I don't, myself, see the need for gender-free dancing, if everybody is free 
to assume whatever dance-floor gender they fancy, for the duration of a 
dance, or an evening, or the period between one costume change and the next.  

Not that you have to take on a gender, no matter how provisional, to dance on 
one or the other side of the set, of course!  

Not in my world, anyway...

Nilos
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:46:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:46:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Homophobia
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <11e.a1fadb.286451d6-AT-
aol.com>
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Marian said, amongst other fine things

>this gives us a chance to discuss it.

and

>(gender balancing is) a lot more than
>an
>annoyance to gay/bisexual women and men who want to dance with people
>they're romantically involved with (or might want to be romantically
>involved with).  They're informed right up front that same-sex partnering
>is
>not welcomed in the ECD community, and that therefore *they* are not
>welcome.  That's what gender-balancing means.

Bravo.  We are all in your debt for putting it so clearly.

Nilos, who will spend the weekend waving a tiny marzipan rainbow flag on the 
end of a toothpick.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:00:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:59:00 +0100
From: jmtraining <jmtraining-AT-
ntlworld.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE CONTRA DANCE
To: CONTRA CORNER <contra-corner-AT-
barndance.org>
CC: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecofftopic-AT-
netservs.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <000e01c0faf1$4262afc0$f9a768d5-AT-
default>
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CONTRA DANCE

Friday 5th July 2001
at KEGWORTH VILLAGE HALL 8pm

Kegworth is on junction 24(?) of the M1 between Nottingham and Derby

caller:    JOHN MEECHAN

band:    BBC (Big Bad Contra)

            a new name but with some very familiar faces Fiona
Maurice -Smith (WYSIWIG etc etc), Flos Headford (Old Swan, ECDB etc etc, Ian
Wilson (Peeping Tom) and Alan (ex-umps and Dumps).

THis, if successful, will be the first night of a new contra dance club -
please suppoort.

Tickets from Fi M-S 01509 673867

John Meechan


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:49:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:57:53 -0400
From: Graham.Christian-AT-
risk.sungard.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments] long!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <85256A73.004D1752.00-AT-
Notes_SMTP.risk.sungard.com>
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[It is my impression that this note did not arrive at the list yesterday...]
These questions are so delicate and complex. I have found myself murmuring in
agreement with several of the messages posted thus far.

I agree with Joyce that speculation about the personal lives of others is not
appropriate to the list. Mind you, I say "to the list": I cheerfully welcome
gossip, scurrilous chatter, and unsubstantiated rumor *off*-list. But there is a
kind of exception here, which renders Dawn's questions and Marian's questions
important. It is important not to feel isolated, or perhaps I should say
isolated *again* (after the isolation offered by society). This is why gays and
lesbians look for not so much "role models" as simple precedents in history:
Moll Cutpurse in the early 17th c., as good an example of a certain kind of
lesbian as you could want to find; Alexander and Hephaistion a bit further back.
Consider a woman somehow trapped in her marriage in the early 19th century,
finding Mary Chudleigh's ardent protest "To the Ladies" (circa. 1670); or a
recent black convert to Catholicism finding a painting of Mauritius, a very
ancient black saint, and nearly always depicted thus. "Look: I'm not a
*complete* anomaly...there have been others."

The teaching tradition from which I hail is gender-role-free--one meaning of
which is not that it's gay or lesbian calling (it's not: cf. Heather and Rose),
but that it is not heterosexual calling. One advantage of such calling is that
no-one need sit out, if there is a partner of any gender available. It tends,
too, to strengthen one's dancing if one knows more dances from either side. Many
women know this already; many men do not, on account of the typical
gender-imbalances already addressed here. Even at non-gender-role-free dances, I
have seen many straight men, given the choice of dancing with man or sitting on
the duff, very sensibly opt for the former. I doubt that this endangers the
dances themselves.

What is ECD *for*?

I have come to think that we indulge in a kind of illusion about what ECD is and
does, and what it was in its history. "Dancing is the vertical expression of a
horizontal desire." "This is all about courtship, you know!"

Well, yes and no.

I agree that there is a fine filament of sexuality in all dance. When I dance
with you, whether you are my grandmother or my favorite flavor, I *acknowledge*
your sexuality. I acknowledge that sexuality is part of your being; I
acknowledge that sexuality informs the pleasure you take in movement to music
with others. Whether that acknowledgement moves from a kind of mutual respect to
a mutual state of the vapors will depend on whether or not you *are* my
grandmother, our preferences, pheromones, the night, the dance, and other
factors too numerous to name. In the period, too, an overlay of sexual meaning
must be taken into consideration. The paintings and engravings of dancers such
as Anne Auretti or La Camargo clearly show that they were considered tasty
dishes; the ballet costumes for the young Louis XIV that bear a disquieting
resemblance to some of the creations of Sally Rand or the Folies Bergere show
that he too was presented as a tasty dish in the course of the dance.

However: the last time I checked, dance and sexual congress were really not the
same thing. When I dance, the interchange I have with my partner is often so
complex as to defy easy categorization as sexual or non-sexual. Then too, the
dance is not just about a partner: it is also about a neighbor, a diagonal, a
minor set, a major set, and a room.

Plus, as a student of the period, I am less and less confident about the
"courtship" assertions we take for granted. I have yet to read, in any primary
or secondary source, something along the lines of "Lord X, seeing Mistress Z
execute such a fine rigaudon, knew at once that she was the correct bride for
his hopeless wastrel of a son, etc." Rigaudons are all very well, but does s/he
have a title? Is s/he a Whoosis? How many houses, mines, horses, bags of cash,
will s/he bring to the altar? Of course, there is Emma's famous assertion in the
eponymous Austen novel ("I will dance with you"--it's the point at which Mr
Knightley stops looking like an uncle and starts looking like a warm
prospect)--but that comes rather late in the period, and Emma is singularly
independent-minded (plus, they know each other very well already). References to
the purposes and practices of English Country dances, where we can find them,
tend to address elegance, cutting a dash in society, beauty, pleasure. You may
say that they took the sexuality of the dances for granted--doubtless that was
in part true. But English Country Dance is not a couple dance as is the waltz:
it is a social dance. Note "Kill Him with Kindess" from 1710, which features far
more same-role neighbor contact than partner contact--and I think this is one of
the *features* of the dance (I am aware that some teach it "1s improper," but
there's no sign of that in Playford, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a
corruption, *hrrmph*, bristle). Learned defenses of dance tended not to
accentuate picking up girls, but the antiquity and venerability of dance;
detractors tended to focus on the mixture of classes, or the possibility of
license if one danced *masked* (i.e., no-one could *tell* whether you really
were Lady Booby, known to be married). ECD was, and is, to me, social dancing
with erotic components.

Is there room for gays and lesbians in ECD? We seem to be here, making room for
ourselves--but often masquerading. I think that gays and lesbians often feel
uncomfortable in "straight" dance contexts because they feel pushed into
straight channels again, and what I have tried to suggest here is that the
man-woman thing is not remotely the whole story (I vow that someday I will write
a new dance to Purcell's "Man is for the Woman Made" as a mixer where you end up
with your own gender every other time...).

We cannot encourage May Gadd, if she preferred the love of women (note that I
say *if*), to reveal herself posthumously, and it may not be fair to press
living dancers to reveal what they may have learned in confidence about any
other dancers, living or dead. All we can do is to be clear about ourselves, and
dance as well as we can. By virtue of being a minority, we certainly cannot
*insist* on dancing only with our own gender or only with each other (nor would
most of us want to be so self-limiting)--and I think it helps us if the broader
ECD community does not *refuse*, with one voice, ever to dance same-gender, and
if it does not look askance at those who do.

When I teach, I try to teach without using gendered language. When I dance, I am
not gay or straight: I elude easy classification. I have felt distinctly
fluttered dancing not just with men, but women too (never more so than, e.g.,
dancing "Rose of Sharon" with Mary Kay Friday, distinctly one of the great dance
experiences of my life). I am free--we should *all* be free in dance. If ECD is
a social dance, it should reflect our society, of which gays and lesbians are,
and have always been, a part.

I now cede the pulpit to the next, and sincerely hope never to address this
subject at such length again.

Graham




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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:59:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:38:34 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: My dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100301b758f9d5b406-AT-
[140.186.54.41]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <10d.1ae15db.286451d4-AT-
aol.com>

I've been slowly being contacted about this book I created a couple 
of years ago, One Caller's Cards.  Right now I think 3 people would 
like copies, but my printer won't create fewer than 10.

If anyone out there on the list is interested in boosting the number 
towards 10 I'd be willing to do another run.

The retail price will have to be $20+$5 for shipping this time.  The 
price last time actually cost me money to print it.

Sigh.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:10:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:08:48 -0400
From: David Woolf <dwoolf-AT-
emory.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: My dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <02d901c0fb24$dc0e6820$d838f6a3-AT-
eushc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <10d.1ae15db.286451d4-AT-
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[140.186.54.41]>

Emily -

Count me in.

-David Woolf
 968 Castle Falls Drive
 Atlanta, GA  30329

Where do I send a check?

-DW
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 9:38 AM
Subject: My dance card book


> I've been slowly being contacted about this book I created a couple 
> of years ago, One Caller's Cards.  Right now I think 3 people would 
> like copies, but my printer won't create fewer than 10.
> 
> If anyone out there on the list is interested in boosting the number 
> towards 10 I'd be willing to do another run.
> 
> The retail price will have to be $20+$5 for shipping this time.  The 
> price last time actually cost me money to print it.
> 
> Sigh.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:13:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:13:02 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: My dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B33526D.FC45975B-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <10d.1ae15db.286451d4-AT-
aol.com> <a05100301b758f9d5b406-AT-
[140.186.54.41]>

>One Caller's Cards.  
would you tell us a little more about it, for those of us who don't know?

thanks
Deb Karl
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:39:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:19:09 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: My dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b75901948640-AT-
[140.186.54.230]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <10d.1ae15db.286451d4-AT-
aol.com> <a05100301b758f9d5b406-AT-
[140.186.54.41]> <3B33526D.FC45975B-AT-
wi.mit.edu>

>  >One Caller's Cards. 
>would you tell us a little more about it, for those of us who don't know?


A few years ago I started compiling the repertoire into a handy 
format, resembling what a caller might write on a 3x5 card but with 3 
cards to a page.  Each card has a number of fields as follows:

dance name
modern printed source with page number
formation
level of difficulty
sequence of sections of the melody for one time through
3-5 bars of the beginning of the melody, in music notation
condensed instructions for dance laid out by music section i.e. AABB, 
or intro/figure (up a dbl-siding-arming dances)

This data is then presented in three indices.  The first is basically 
a table of contents, although the dance cards are published in 
alphabetical order.  The second is an index by formation beginning 
with 2 cpl sets and ending with weird formations.  The third is an 
index by level of difficulty and formation - so if you need a 3-cpl 
set that's sort of easy you can find all the level 3 or level 2 3-cpl 
sets in one place in that index.

I did the book in Hypercard, being, as many of you know, a Mac user. 
This permitted me to use symbols for the calls, rather than an 
endless stream of undifferentiated words.  So there's an up arrow for 
going up and a cloverleaf icon for cloverleaf turn singles, an x for 
cross over, an asterisk for star, a round circle for ... you get the 
point.  Using the symbols makes scanning the directions when you're 
prompting less hassle.

The pages of the book can be copied onto heavier stock and cut up 
into cards, if one wishes, but the book is GBC bound, like the first 
Barnes, and about an inch thick.  Personally, I think carrying the 
book around is much easier than carrying a box of cards.

I have not added any dances to the book in at least 2 years.  There 
are about 500 dances there now, all of what I consider standard 
repertoire is present.  There are a small number of errors which I 
should correct before a new printing.  Users have been emailing me 
about them, but I've been out shooting and not calling at all, so the 
book has become a low priority.

Thanks for asking.

-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.beetlecat.com/gft-pics/ef-notes.htm
http://www.beetlecat.org/results/99champs.html
http://www.beetlecat.org/store.html#yrbook
landscape at:
http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:45:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:45:02 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Halsway Membership
To: EngCountryDance <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <009d01c0fb29$fc80bc20$d853893e-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Someone recently contacted me asking how to become a member of the Halsway
Manor Society having come over from the USA for a holiday and spent an
agreeable time at the residential Folk Music & Dance and Song centre in
Somerset, UK. (see website www.halswaymanor.co.uk if you wish to know more.)

This is a simple matter and only costs £3. If one sends an email to the
manor office-AT-
halswaymanor.co.uk  with your postal address an application
form will be posted off as your signature is required on the actual form. I
can arrange for names to be proposal and seconded in the appropriate manner.
Similarly, for the Friends of Halsway Manor which also costs £3 for
membership, plus as much in donations as you care to offer. You can of
course also send donations direct to the Halsway Manor Society which is
registered as an educational charity.

Regards Alan
PS. I have found some of the recent letters from the States extremely
interesting and highly educational.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:04:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106220703030.4362-100000-AT-
pairoducks.monitor.net>
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Andrew Peterson wrote:

> 
> --- Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net> wrote:
> >  RE: Gender balancing:
> > It's also, in my opinion, illegal.  This one isn't quite as
> > cut-and-dried as the copyright business, but I think there's a
> > very strong argument to be made that gender balancing is a
> > prohibited form of sex discrimination, at least in California.
> > ...The California law in question is usually called the Unruh
> > Act, more formally Civil Code section 51.  The relevant
> section
> > reads:
> > 
> >     All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free
> > and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color,
> religion,
> > ancestry, national origin, disability, or medical condition
> are
> > entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages,
> > facilities, privileges, or services in all business
> > establishments of every kind whatsoever.
> > 
> > ...Anyway, the language "all business establishments of every
> > kind whatsoever" is pretty clearly intended to be interpreted
> > as broadly as possible, and the courts agree: in a case called
> > Ibister v. Boys' Club of Santa Cruz (1985) 40 Cal.3d 72, the
> > California Supreme Court held that the Boys' Club was a
> > business establishment within the meaning of the Unruh Act,
> and
> > was not permitted to exclude girls.  There's text in Ibister
> > that says, basically, that anybody who charges money for their
> > goods or services is a "business establishment" under the
> Unruh
> > Act.
> 
> So where does this leave the Boy Scouts and their anti-gay
> policy, which unless I'm mistaken was upheld in the Federal
> Supreme Court?

Good question.  Dale v. BSA concerned a group's right to control its
membership, which is a distinctly different issue from a business's right
to control its customers.  The rationale behind Dale was that the BSA are,
in effect, "speaking" through their refusal to admit gay members: they're
making the statement "being gay is bad," and under the First Amendment they
have the right to make that statement without interference from the
government.  Similarly, the Ku Klux Klan has a First Amendment right to say
"being black is bad" through its membership policies -- but this is
entirely different from, for example, a restaurant owner making the
statment "being black is bad" through his policy of refusing to serve
African Americans; that would be illegal discrimination under both the
Civil Rights Act and most state anti-discrimination laws.  The jargon term
for the right asserted by the BSA in Dale is "expressive association," and,
again, it goes *only* to the issue of organizations restricting their
membership.

Moreover, the organization has to be using its membership policies to make
a statement which is a central purpose of the group's existence, as
distinct from just indulging a preference.  For example, the Pacific Union
Club in San Francisco, which used to be male-only, was not really organized
for the express purpose of making the statement "being female is bad"; they
were just a bunch of guys indulging a preference to not have women in their
club, something the First Amendment does *not* give them the right to do.
(This, in case anyone cares, is why I personally think Dale was wrongly
decided.  I'm totally in favor of expressive association, but I think the
Scouts are really more in the position of the Pacific Union Club guys --
that is, I think they just whomped up this anti-gay "central purpose"
because they felt uncomfortable having gay members.  I don't think the
Scouts, at least prior to the Dale litigation, were an anti-gay
organization in the same sense that the KKK is an anti-black organization.
Justice Rehnquist, in his wisdom, disagreed.  I wonder if he was ever a Boy
Scout.)

Under Dale (and its predecessor Hurley v. Irish-American Gays of Boston,
the infamous St. Patrick's Day Parade case), a dance group presumably has
the right to make the statement "gender-balanced dancing is good" through
its membership policies, as long as the transmission of that message is a
central purpose of the organization, in the same sense as transmitting
"being black is bad" is a central purpose of the Ku Klux Klan.  I think the
"central purpose" requirement would be a fairly tough obstacle to overcome,
just for starters.  I also find it hard to imagine how this would play out
in real life.  I suppose an organization that sponsored dances could
restrict the dances to members only, and then have an "expressive
assocation" policy of admitting equal numbers of male and female members,
but that would only result in gender-balanced dances if every member came
to every dance.  I don't think the "expressive association" principle gives
the organization the right to discriminate against its own members -- that
is, for example, I don't think the Scouts would have won Dale if what
they'd wanted to do was admit gay members, but then not allow anyone gay to
go on certain camping trips.  I could be wrong about that, though.  It's
certainly a close question whether a dance organization which had the
central purpose of advocating gender-balanced dancing and a gender-balanced
membership policy would also have the right to enforce gender balancing at
individual dance events.

However, I think we can all recognize that that's a theoretical question
which has nothing to do with reality.  In reality, dance groups are
organized for the purpose of promoting dances, not for the purpose of
advocating a viewpoint about gender balancing, and in reality dances are
not members-only events, they're open to anyone who walks in off the
street.  Therefore, dance promoters are much more closely analogous to the
restaurant owner, who may not discriminate with respect to his customers,
and to the men's social clubs, who dislike women members but lack the
central purpose of advocating an anti-woman viewpoint, than to the Boy
Scouts of America (or at any rate Justice Rehnquist's interpretation of the
BSA).  So that, in probably rather too many words, is why I don't think the
Dale v. BSA rule applies here.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:05:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:07:17 -0400
From: Bree Kalb <bree-AT-
mindspring.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: My dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003b01c0fb35$8033f0e0$0fa0f7a5-AT-
bertha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <10d.1ae15db.286451d4-AT-
aol.com> <a05100301b758f9d5b406-AT-
[140.186.54.41]>

Emily,
I would like to order a copy of your book. Since you don't know me, I'd be
glad to send a check to you in advance.
If you reply to this, I probably won't check email again until Sunday.
Bree Kalb

----- Original Message -----
From: Emily L. Ferguson <elf-AT-
cape.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 9:38 AM
Subject: My dance card book


> I've been slowly being contacted about this book I created a couple
> of years ago, One Caller's Cards.  Right now I think 3 people would
> like copies, but my printer won't create fewer than 10.
>
> If anyone out there on the list is interested in boosting the number
> towards 10 I'd be willing to do another run.
>
> The retail price will have to be $20+$5 for shipping this time.  The
> price last time actually cost me money to print it.
>
> Sigh.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:07:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:08:56 -0400
From: Loretta Holz <loretta-AT-
varisys.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Emily's dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003001c0fb2d$423df270$776cd626-AT-
lorettapc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <10d.1ae15db.286451d4-AT-
aol.com> <a05100301b758f9d5b406-AT-
[140.186.54.41]> <3B33526D.FC45975B-AT-
wi.mit.edu> <a05100300b75901948640-AT-
[140.186.54.230]>

> >  >One Caller's Cards.
> >would you tell us a little more about it, for those of us who don't know?

This is the most useful dance book I ever invested in.  My copy is looking
rather shopworn at the point so Emily count me in for another copy to keep
as backup.

It is a quick reference when you can't remember every step in a familar
dance.  It gives a quick way to find the type of dance you're looking for.
Dances are rated for difficulty, for example.   The directions are not
detailed (go back to the original sources for that) but give a quick
reminder.   I like to have it with me at dance weeks/weekends because when I
do a dance I like, I'll look it up to remind myself how it went and note
that it's a good one.  As Emily says it's not perfect but it's wonderful and
every caller should have a copy.

Loretta Holz


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:09:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:05:58 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B32E047.FD2A3C2B-AT-
opendoor.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <B756AE74.A86%joycecrouch-AT-
pobox.com> <008b01c0fa26$3c1cde40$02fc0140-AT-
default>

Marian Phillips wrote:

> It is my impression that very little, if any, outreach is being done toward
> the gay and bisexual community by ECD organizations.  I'd be extremely
> interested in hearing about any.

Come to Oregon and dance with the Heather and Rose Country Dancers - check out
our website at www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose

We've been teaching using global terminology (no reference to gender) for over
20 years. Here is part of our philosophy statement:

Our philosophy is based upon community and inclusiveness.  The emphasis is the
whole of the dance community and the whole of the dance.  We promote community
and inclusiveness by teaching with global terminology (e.g. without language
that refers to gender), not using gender to determine who dances on what side
or with whom, and by forming sets as individuals rather than as couples.

Our teaching language is global and geography-based.  It isn't ‘gender free’;
everyone gets to keep their gender and what it means to them.  It is simply
that the teaching/calling does not refer to gender in any way.  Rather we use
language that refers to people’s positions within the dance.  Since there are
usually uneven numbers of men and women, it helps avoid confusion and is more
fair to the majority gender by eliminating translation problems (e.g. I’m a
woman but dancing the man’s role so when they say man they mean me).  It also
promotes community spirit by being inclusive - not discriminating against the
majority gender and removing a barrier for the extra gender.  It has the added
benefit of simplicity and clarity, usually requiring fewer words when teaching.

The way we teach supports the way we dance.  We don’t worry about who is on
what side or dancing with whom.  When you come to our dances you will find men
dancing with men, women dancing with women and women dancing with men on either
side of the dance.  Gender balance is not an issue; everyone who wants to dance
can.  We feel this builds a stronger community - you get to know and dance with
more people and everyone has an equal chance to dance rather than the majority
gender having to trade in.  It is also more welcoming to same gender couples.
Added benefits include dancers learning the whole dance rather than just one
side of it (they become better dancers by learning all aspects of the dance,
knowing the whole pattern).

Hope to see you at one of our dances soon (Bare Necessities is playing for our
Harvest Ball September 28-30 in Eugene).

Brooke and Chris in Ashland Oregon

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:32:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:26:42 -0400
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The math
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622.122933.-155363.2.solweber-AT-
juno.com>
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Yes, waiting out can be pleasant -- conversation about May Gadd,
exchanging phone numbers, switching with other sets, scratching,
etc -- but if you want maximum dancing time, there ARE further
possibilities.  In a duple minor line, with no extra couples, at the end 
of each round the couple spit out at the bottom can gallop to the top
and become a new "one" with the odd couple created at the top.  That
"two" will not have been robbed of becoming a "one", just a case of
delayed gratification.  They WILL become a one when they reach the 
bottom and it's THEIR turn to gallop.  Short sets will aid the galloping 
process, and guards could be stationed at the foot of each set to make
sure that a single couple doesn't join in, thereby screwing up the whole
scenario.

For triple minor lines, similar strategies could be adopted for the 
waiting out couples.  Alternatively, when two couples are waiting out,
they could do Rufty Tufty (beginning dancers), Handel With Care 
(intermediate) or Parson's Farewell (experienced).


 



+++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
+++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, and 
  misc musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com ; members.nbci.com/rounds
Urgent message?  Please phone.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:00:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:00:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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In a message dated 6/22/01 12:33:50 AM, lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com writes:

<< Not to mention the year that the Mummers Play at Berea Christmas
Country Dance School had a *woman* in it. I'd done it for years
in Accokeek with girls playing some of the parts and thought
nothing of it. But when Susan Murrow played one of the parts one
year at CCDS, there were some *looks* from both Gay and Ethel.
 >>

It has only been the last few years that women have been allowed to do Morris 
dancing at Berea CCDS!

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:05:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:05:15 -0400
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: new discovery about the life of May Gadd
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
BCC: 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F138aJswFCHOzy00007a7c-AT-
hotmail.com>
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The recent discussion which lurched into life from a question about the life 
of May Gadd -- whom I never met, made a pass at, winked at, or engaged in 
any entertaining activity with, horizontally or vertically or in any other 
dimension of space or time -- led me to dig into some hitherto lost archives 
on the history of CDSS. In fact, these archives were so lost, that they had 
never before been found. Anyhow, here goes, from a file marked "Sovershenno 
Sekretno" ["Completely Secret" to those who don't know Russian]....

"Secretary General of the Comintern [Communist International] Cergei Sharpov 
paced impatiently before the windows of his Kremlin office, his eagle-like 
profile wreathed in a murky haze of turkish tobacco smoke and chanel no.5. 
His deep worry was etched upon his fevered brow, and he absently adjusted 
the thick mat of chest hair which decorated his manly pectorals. His mighty 
shoulders strained the thin fabric of his party issue tunic.

"He had good reason to be concerned. No word had yet come from the 
Comintern's key operative working undercover subverting the EFDS [Pinewoods 
Chapter], the beautiful Maia Gadkaia, she who had once said, 'I'll seduce 
anyone, of any species, sex, or preference, except a morris dancer', and had 
proved true to her word..."

Hmm. I just remembered that "gad" in Russian means reptile, and that the 
adjective "gadkii," with its feminine singular nominative form as above, 
"gadkaia," metaphorically means low and vile. Can it be a pseudonym, 
subtlely reflecting this subversive course on which she had embarked, trying 
to undermine the basis of western civ, that is, ECD?...

I refuse to speculate. Comrades, back to the archives! Speculation without 
documentation is tyranny! Or to quote Alice Roosevelt Longworth, "if you 
can't be nice, then sit right here by me and dish." (Or words to that 
effect.)

Steve Corrsin

ps was it in fact MG who coined the phrase, "life's too short to dance with 
ugly guys"?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:28:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:30:14 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Morris at Christmas School
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001301c0fb62$aaf4a360$9b03ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Carl Friedman wrote "It has only been the last few years that women have
been allowed to do Morris dancing at Berea CCDS!" Well, this is almost the
case - but it has been more than "the last few years" now.

Women have been admitted to Christmas School Cotswold morris classes for
many years, but taking part in the New Year's Eve (afternoon, actually)
morris tour was not sanctioned until much more recently, although women
could and did do garland and Northwest Morris dances as part of the annual
tour. Female Cotswold morris dancers were viewed as the problem.

 I am sorry that I cannot remember the precise year, but sometime around
1984-85, enough of Lexington, KY's Castlewood Morris Dancers (a active
women's Cotswold side which had been in existence for several years at this
point) were enrolled in CCDS to form a complete set. I was a Castlewood
musician (fiddler) for the full 13 year run of this group, and I was also
enrolled in Christmas School that year.  In previous years, our brother
group, the Lexington Morris Men, had visited and participated in the New
Year's Eve tour, so the Castlewood dancers, who were all taking morris
classes, assumed we'd be dancing as a group during the tour. Not so! We were
told we could not dance in the tour at all - because of our gender.
Meanwhile, the LMM who were NOT enrolled had driven down to Berea and joined
some of their number who WERE CCDS students that year - and they were
welcomed, despite not being enrolled, and took part in the tour - except for
a few very dear friends who refused to dance because their (enrolled)
Castlewood sister group was excluded.

I am told that the rumpus resulting from this controversial decision was a
major topic of discussion during the next CCDS board meeting - after which,
it was decided that (1) anyone enrolled could take any class, on an
appropriate level, regardless of gender, (2) only CCDS enrollees would take
part in the New Year's Eve Morris Tour, and (3) any enrollee in a Cotswold
morris class would be welcome to take part in the morris tour - ergo, women
as well as men could be included.

So the NEXT year, not only was there a featured solo Cotswold morris jig by
an extremely talented  female dancer, but  I was also delighted to play my
fiddle for the first all-female Cotswold morris side at Christmas Country
Dance School's New Year's Eve Morris Tour! The side was made up of women
morris dancers from all over. "For those who knew" what it took to get us
there, it was an especially exhilarating experience - we all danced and
played with big smiles on our faces, and I never saw hankies or capers go
higher.

Nowadays, women take part in this annual event as a matter of course,
without comment - and looking back, I have to wonder why it was such a
controversial thing in the first place (sorta reminds me of a Welshman who
taught a course in morris music around this time. He made it clear he didn't
care for female morris dancers - or musicians. But rather than stating this
outright, he just kept making slighting remarks about female dancers, and
also told me [the only female morris musician in the small class] that I
couldn't be a "real" musician because I could read music. I asked if that
meant that I [a children's librarian] wasn't a "real" storyteller because I
was literate...)

Women have taken part in the New Year's Eve Mummers' Play at CCDS off and on
for a number of years. It's no big deal nowadays. Lexington's Traditions
Guild performed "St. George and the Dragon" annually for many years, and it
was customary for George to be played by a woman - over the years, we also
had female doctors, Johnny Jacks, Hobby Horses, Beelzebubs, Old Bet(s) and
Mother(s) Nature and Christmas, mainly determined by who wanted to play
what, and who was available for the roles...personality seemed a lot more
important than gender in casting. This seems to be the case at Christmas
School these days, too.

But the question remains: this all seems so simple and straightforward now.
Why did we have to go through so much grief to get to this obvious (and
sensible) point?

Susan Booker
former Castlewood musician, "Mother Nature", "Beelzebub", and "Doctor"; and
 Morris Pioneer at CCDS...


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:28:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:30:14 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Morris at Christmas School
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003901c0fb62$aafdcb20$9b03ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Carl Friedman wrote "It has only been the last few years that women have
been allowed to do Morris dancing at Berea CCDS!" Well, this is almost the
case - but it has been more than "the last few years" now.

Women have been admitted to Christmas School Cotswold morris classes for
many years, but taking part in the New Year's Eve (afternoon, actually)
morris tour was not sanctioned until much more recently, although women
could and did do garland and Northwest Morris dances as part of the annual
tour. Female Cotswold morris dancers were viewed as the problem.

 I am sorry that I cannot remember the precise year, but sometime around
1984-85, enough of Lexington, KY's Castlewood Morris Dancers (a active
women's Cotswold side which had been in existence for several years at this
point) were enrolled in CCDS to form a complete set. I was a Castlewood
musician (fiddler) for the full 13 year run of this group, and I was also
enrolled in Christmas School that year.  In previous years, our brother
group, the Lexington Morris Men, had visited and participated in the New
Year's Eve tour, so the Castlewood dancers, who were all taking morris
classes, assumed we'd be dancing as a group during the tour. Not so! We were
told we could not dance in the tour at all - because of our gender.
Meanwhile, the LMM who were NOT enrolled had driven down to Berea and joined
some of their number who WERE CCDS students that year - and they were
welcomed, despite not being enrolled, and took part in the tour - except for
a few very dear friends who refused to dance because their (enrolled)
Castlewood sister group was excluded.

I am told that the rumpus resulting from this controversial decision was a
major topic of discussion during the next CCDS board meeting - after which,
it was decided that (1) anyone enrolled could take any class, on an
appropriate level, regardless of gender, (2) only CCDS enrollees would take
part in the New Year's Eve Morris Tour, and (3) any enrollee in a Cotswold
morris class would be welcome to take part in the morris tour - ergo, women
as well as men could be included.

So the NEXT year, not only was there a featured solo Cotswold morris jig by
an extremely talented  female dancer, but  I was also delighted to play my
fiddle for the first all-female Cotswold morris side at Christmas Country
Dance School's New Year's Eve Morris Tour! The side was made up of women
morris dancers from all over. "For those who knew" what it took to get us
there, it was an especially exhilarating experience - we all danced and
played with big smiles on our faces, and I never saw hankies or capers go
higher.

Nowadays, women take part in this annual event as a matter of course,
without comment - and looking back, I have to wonder why it was such a
controversial thing in the first place (sorta reminds me of a Welshman who
taught a course in morris music around this time. He made it clear he didn't
care for female morris dancers - or musicians. But rather than stating this
outright, he just kept making slighting remarks about female dancers, and
also told me [the only female morris musician in the small class] that I
couldn't be a "real" musician because I could read music. I asked if that
meant that I [a children's librarian] wasn't a "real" storyteller because I
was literate...)

Women have taken part in the New Year's Eve Mummers' Play at CCDS off and on
for a number of years. It's no big deal nowadays. Lexington's Traditions
Guild performed "St. George and the Dragon" annually for many years, and it
was customary for George to be played by a woman - over the years, we also
had female doctors, Johnny Jacks, Hobby Horses, Beelzebubs, Old Bet(s) and
Mother(s) Nature and Christmas, mainly determined by who wanted to play
what, and who was available for the roles...personality seemed a lot more
important than gender in casting. This seems to be the case at Christmas
School these days, too.

But the question remains: this all seems so simple and straightforward now.
Why did we have to go through so much grief to get to this obvious (and
sensible) point?

Susan Booker
former Castlewood musician, "Mother Nature", "Beelzebub", and "Doctor"; and
 Morris Pioneer at CCDS...


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:32:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:35:10 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Oops - sorry for double posting re CCDS morris tours and mummers' plays
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001b01c0fb63$37bad8a0$9b03ffd1-AT-
oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I have no idea how that happened! Another glitch in my new computer??

Susan Booker

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:46:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: MEIER-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: general comments
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: MEIER-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <01K52KMWR0ZC9N92JF-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Subscribing to the digest version of the list does more than save time -- it
also keeps you from saying "me too" too often.  Hope I'm not missing much so
far in today's discussion :-).

Graham Christian writes (after a poetical, incontrovertible discourse on the
nature of social dance and how we acknowledge ourselves as sexual beings within
it): "...it may not be fair to press living dancers to reveal what they may
have learned in confidence about any other dancers, living or dead."  And,
after careful unwrapping of the question by Robin Hayden, Joyce Crouch confirms
that her concern is speculation about May Gadd as much as it is about Gadd's
privacy.

So therefore, weighing these two positions, my take is that now is the *best*
time to ask this question, because without asking for knowledge from those who
might have it, while they're still alive to offer it, we are left with *only*
speculation.  I don't think anyone here favors a "well, you know what they
say," giggling-behind-the-hand gossip session.

I'm not sure what the limits of learning something in confidence might be,
Graham.  If someone has been sworn to preserve a secret forever, that's one
matter. If one has simply learned a personal, non-shameful piece of
information, that's another. 

I cannot quite agree with Bob Jo Bob, who writes: "May Gadd does not appear to
have spoke publicly of her sexuality or lack thereof.  Given her generation, I
doubt she spoke of it privately.  Let us respect that."  This in itself strikes
me as speculation, unless you have direct knowledge of her wishes.  And as
Barbara Ruth points out, opinion has shifted over time.  I applaud your Star
Trek analogy :), but I don't think we're violating the Prime Directive by
asking this question.  She's not afloat in an alien culture -- she lived here.
We still remember her in our neighborhood.

Barbara Ruth cheers me tremendously when she writes: "On the contrary I see the
acceptance of same-sexed partners, the increasing relaxation of gender roles,
the active recruitment of openly gay callers and leaders for "mainstream"
dances and for gender-free sessions in events such as NEFFA and NOMAD, and the
great respect, and even reverence for openly gay leaders, callers and
musicians, as signs of a community that supports diversity and is working to
make itself more open and welcoming to all members." I've seen all the things
Barbara Ruth describes, and it's wonderful.

However, it was just a few weeks ago that a unfamiliar female partner and I had
lined up as first couple at the head of a longways set, but when two men went
to the bottom of the set to dance together my partner said, "Wait, there's two
men, we can dance with them instead." She started to move to the bottom to snag
them, but fortunately the caller launched into instruction.  My partner made a
moue of frustration before the walk-through began.  

I'm looking forward to the day when I can take this kind of behavior merely
*personally*, as a breach of dance etiquette, instead of as a symptom of a
still-extant larger set of assumptions about who constitutes a proper dance
partner. <wry smile>

Vanessa
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:15:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:00:57 -0700
From: giovanni de amici <sbecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The math
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B33DC39.F2040DA1-AT-
yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20010622.122933.-155363.2.solweber-AT-
juno.com>

beg your pardon? is this 'applied math' gone beserk?

sol weber wrote:
> 
> ... In a duple minor line, with no extra couples, at the end
> of each round the couple spit out at the bottom can gallop to the top
> and become a new "one" with the odd couple created at the top.  That
> "two" will not have been robbed of becoming a "one", just a case of
> delayed gratification.  They WILL become a one when they reach the
> bottom and it's THEIR turn to gallop.  ...


In all duple minor dances I know, the ones travel downward, the twos
travel upward: the only way to become the 'last' couple (the one 'spit
out', in your parlance) at the end of the set is to be a couple one! 
No couple two EVER reaches the bottom!
Each and every couple two alon the entire set, in your scenario, will be
condemned to remain a couple two forever, since only couple ones will
reach the bottom and become eligible to rush to the top and become
couple ones again.
I pray nobody ever tries this 'scheme' in real life.
Giovanni De Amici

-- 
for information about ECD in the Los Angeles area, please check SBECD's
web page at:
www.geocities.com/sbecd


_________________________________________________________

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Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:15:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:03:15 -0400
From: bobalonia-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Please forgive my poor MLA
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622.200325.-175669.1.bobalonia-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Vanessa wrote
> I cannot quite agree with Bob Jo Bob, who writes: "May Gadd does not 
> appear to have spoke publicly of her sexuality or lack thereof.  Given
her 
> generation, I doubt she spoke of it privately.  Let us respect that." 
This in 
> itself strikes me as speculation, unless you have direct knowledge of
her wishes.  
>
In case my posting was truncated or I simply mis-communicated here the
last part of my message followed by an EOF.  Just because I don't know of
an instance where this occurred, I don't claim omniscience.  I'm off
dancing folks.  I'll read my e-mail Monday!
-------------------------------------------------------------

May Gadd does not appear to have spoke publicly of her sexuality or lack
thereof.  Given her generation, I doubt she spoke of it privately. (1) 
Let us respect that.

Bob Jo Bob

1.  Of course this is just SPECULATION.  Yes, caps are significant.


********************* END OF FILE ***************************
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:39:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:39:09 -0700
From: Howard Carlberg <nsuch-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new discovery about the life of May Gadd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B33E52B.FFC20DEA-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <LAW2-F138aJswFCHOzy00007a7c-AT-
hotmail.com>

Thank you Steve for your recent discoveries. Takes the heat
off some of the previos speculations.
Howard
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:41:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:37:20 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Our Dance Community (new title)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010622.223721.-519879.1.franch-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you, all, who have contributed to the thread of various titles but
begun by the query regarding May Gadd.  I think it's been a very valuable
discussion, and one of great relevance to our dance community.

One thing I've learned from the dance scholars on this list is that the
study of dance is always about dance--and always about other than
dance--the social structure of the times, gender relations, economics. 
True then, true now.  We dance because we love to dance, but we stream
our values with us, some of which we see, some of which we don't.

As someone who has been something of a social activist for most of my
adult life, I've often felt a little uncomfortable about the time and
energy I put into some "frivolous" as music and dance.  It's still true
that I might be doing something more productive with that time on the
dance floor, but this discussion reminds me that our dance life is also
part of our attempt to live so to contribute to a just society.  My wife
and I have long refused to attend gender balanced dances out of
conviction, even though we longed to go, and I've been concerned that
folk events be handicapped accessible.  I think of myself as friendly to
gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered concerns, and as a clergyman have
officiated at same-sex unions.  But perhaps I haven't been as
clear-sighted about the dance community as I could have been.  So this
discussion has been helpful.  Thanks, all.

Mike Franch
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:35:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Morris at Christmas School
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010623073530.4090.qmail-AT-
web3302.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net> wrote:
> But the question remains: this all seems so simple and
> straightforward now. Why did we have to go through so 
> much grief to get to this obvious (and sensible) point?

I would have to say that it had a lot to do with the fact that
The Morris Ring, in England was (probably still is?) a men only
group. (I haven't been around any Morris team that belongs to
The Ring for a very long time to even know whether they have
progressed past that foolishness or not.) When I first joined
Pinewoods Morris Men in 1970 it was the *only* team in the USA
and as a member club of The Ring, all dancers were men. Women
always played for them in the time that I've known PMM. My first
time dancing out with them was a tour of Plymouth which included
a stop at the Mayflower. Quite frankly, I can't remember the
first time that a women's or mixed team danced at the annual PMM
tour of Harvard Yard.

Several years later a group of PMMers went to England as a side
for the first time and Marshall Barron went as their musician.
There were some people in The Morris Ring who refused to let her
play during any Ring-sponsored tour. As luck would have it, the
teams that PMM was paired with were more progressive and allowed
her to play when the stuffed shirts weren't watching, but
whenever there was a stop at which all the teams were massed,
she was not allowed to play. I heard this story from Marshall
and a couple of the guys who went on that tour. Some men claim
that women shouldn't dance Morris because they dnce differently,
but I have to say that some of the women Morris dancers I've
known were better than any of the men. I think that women *do*
move a bit differently than men, but it doesn't mean that they
aren't good Morris dancers.

I think that the resistance to women dancing in the Berea tour
had as much to do with the tradition (there's that word again)
that Morris was a men's dance (even though it was women who kept
it alive during WWI). Mummer's players were also traditionally
all men.

Andy in PDX

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Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:17:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:12:22 +0200
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments]
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010623111222.008222b0-AT-
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Graham wrote:
>
>What is ECD *for*?

In all my years of social dancing I have never anywhere felt that dancers
were on the floor to look for an easy pickup. Nor have i ever noticed
damcers watching to see who would be going home with whom after the ball.
That's not what we are there for.

>I vow that someday I will write
>a new dance ...where you end up
>with your own gender every other time...)

Sounds fun. Let us know if you ever get it worked out !

Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm
              (dance groups,  events,  some new dances ...)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:15:05 PST
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:00:15 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments]
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100300b75a16bea16d-AT-
[140.186.54.42]>
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References: <3.0.5.32.20010623111222.008222b0-AT-
pop.wanadoo.fr>

>Graham wrote:
>>
>>What is ECD *for*?
>
>In all my years of social dancing I have never anywhere felt that dancers
>were on the floor to look for an easy pickup.


Well,....  Not easy.....

But certainly those who come to the dances come anticipating, or 
discovering, that there will be people with similar interests and 
motivations and possibly compatibilities there.  And if those people 
are unattached at the time, sometimes even if they are attached, they 
do seem to find a way opening to further connection.  Not exactly 
something so point blank as "an easy pickup" but a linkup, 
nonetheless.

I am under the impression that historically, in their original social 
context, the dance events were opportunities for generally the young, 
single generation to meet and play together, to display social skills 
and "court" under the "supervision" of their elders.

Aside from the departure of the "supervision" aspect, I'm not at all 
certain the dances don't continue to function in a quite similar way 
today.


-- 
Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:33:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:33:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments]
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Graham:

 >What is ECD *for*?

Martin:

 >In all my years of social dancing I have never anywhere felt
 >that dancers were on the floor to look for an easy pickup. Nor
 >have i ever noticed damcers watching to see who would be going
 >home with whom after the ball. That's not what we are there for

Emily:

 >But certainly those who come to the dances come anticipating, or
 >discovering, that there will be people with similar interests
 >and motivations and possibly compatibilities there. And if those
 >people are unattached at the time, sometimes even if they are
 >attached, they do seem to find a way opening to further
 >connection. Not exactly something so point blank as "an easy
 >pickup" but a linkup, nonetheless.

FWIW, Julie (my wife of 14+ years) and I first met at the ECDs at
Duane Hall in New York. I suspect that this is not an uncommon
phenomenon.Easy? No comment. :)

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:51:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:47:10 -0400
From: franch-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments]
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010623.114710.-227759.2.franch-AT-
juno.com>
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The nice thing about meeting someone at a dance and establishing a
relationship is that is avoids the problem of "mixed" marriages or other
types of long-term relationships--that is, between dancer and non-dancer.
 Although the Baltimore ECD community lost a dancer of the English dance
when she married a contra dancer. But at least that's in the family, as
it were (it's okay for close dance cousins to marry).

The nice thing about dance as a venue to look for companionship is that
it's a great thing in itself.  One knows that at the end of the evening
one would have had a good time.  I've officiated at a half dozen or so
weddings where the couples met a dances.  (And yes, in view of our
previous discussion, I officiate at ceremonies for which the state
refuses to issue a license.)

Mike Franch
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:15:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments]
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106230900120.5901-100000-AT-
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> FWIW, Julie (my wife of 14+ years) and I first met at the ECDs at
> Duane Hall in New York. I suspect that this is not an uncommon
> phenomenon.Easy? No comment. :)

Further data point: my wife and I met on a morris team.  Not the same as 
ECD, admittedly, but an interesting tie-in with the thread on women dancing
morris.  I, personally, am very glad women dance morris.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:15:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:10:31 -0400
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Back to the Lusitania
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010623.121222.-1743135.0.AllisonThompson-AT-
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For anyone still interested, I just found the reference to this issue in
Country Dance & Song, #6, in an article by May Gadd on Lily Roberts
Conant:

"Lily's passage [from England to the US] was booked on the Tuscania which
was due to pass the Lusitania [traveling from US to England] in the
English Channel on Friday, May 6, 1915.  Rumors that the Lusitania would
be torpedoed by the Germans because they believed it carried war arms
prompted the Cunard line to delay the Tuscania sailing.  Lily Roberts
concelled her sailing and rebooked on the American line, leaving a few
days later on the New York, a poor old tub just about on its last
voyage....The New York was called the "funeral boat" as it carried the
bodies of many of the Lusitania victims home.  It took two weeks to
arrive in New York...."

What still lurks in my memory was that it was Sharp who had actually
booked passage in the Lusitania leaving from NYC and either missed the
boat or had to re-book for some reason.


Allison
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Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:37:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: MEIER-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: general comments and new discovery about the life of May Gadd
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: MEIER-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Bob Jo Bob:

Hmn, I wonder if that part of the message was temporarily hidden when I used my
scroll bar to write comments to several people at once.  Another problem that's
All the Computer's Fault.  Anyway, thanks for reposting your footnote -- afraid
I still disagree with the body of the message, though.

Vanessa
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:33:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:33:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments, gender, plaisirs, et al.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Barbara Ruth said

>Despite that preference, all the dances I am familiar with have an
>ethic that it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to dance with
>members of either sex as they prefer, and that everyone is welcome,
>irrespective of either sexual preference or dance partner preference.

And that's an excellent thing.  But.  However.  
Despite-which-admirable-state-of-affairs.  Official ethic notwithstanding, 
there's considerable pressure to be "normal" and dance as one's official 
gender.  

If that's too general a statement, I'll personalize it:
I've experienced considerable, and not especially pleasant, pressure to dance 
the side of my official gender.  That includes people hissing at me that I'm 
on the wrong side as I go down the set, patient explanations that I was 
supposed to dance on the women's side (delivered in a tone as of someone 
kindly supplying a basic fact to the village idiot), cold-shouldering at 
dances where I've been on the "wrong side" too often, and a myriad of tiny 
signals (familiar to any queer, but I'm afraid rather difficult to describe 
to anyone who isn't generally subjected to them) that I was behaving 
inappropriately, and wasn't welcome.   

(Not that I never behave inappropriately on the dance floor, mind you...but I 
can explain about the garter snake and the balloons, really.  Although maybe 
not in public.)

This normative shepherding (to supply a biographical note) was almost enough 
to make me decide, in my first few years doing ECD, that much as I loved the 
dancing I would never have a place in the dance community.  Fortunately, 
there was the dance itself, and the music, to draw me back over and over, 
until I was irredeemably hooked.  The dance, and the music, and those 
partners who communicated with every line of posture and gesture their joy 
and engagement, and who were clearly more concerned to dance with me than to 
make anyone follow their gender rules.    

But it was a definite struggle for a few years.  Now all that moue-ing and 
hissing and looking askance rolls off my back, rather, because I know those 
partners, those sets, those incredible experiences, will be there.  And 
because now the dance community is so much my home that I had to really 
struggle with the choice between the SF Dyke March and the Saturday 
Experienced English, with Bruce calling, this weekend -- and the dance won.  
This whole wonderful, interesting discussion only serves to confirm that this 
is as it should be.

But would I call the ECD community queer-friendly?  I'm afraid I'd have to 
say I wouldn't.  When I've brought gay friends to dances they generally say 
that it's lovely but there's so much pressure to act straight that they 
probably won't be back.  Do I think this could change, with benefit to all 
parts of the equation, the dance as well as the dancers?  You betcha.  

I couldn't agree more that getting out and doing the outreach is the thing.  
So I'm sending up a trial balloon this weekend.  I made up some flyers to 
publicize the SF second Saturday dance, and I'll be passing them out at the 
(insert many initials here) Pride parade this Sunday, and Marian has kindly 
offered to do the same at the Dyke March.  Any Bay Area dancers who wish to 
attend the next dance in that series (July 14th, with Cathleen Meyers of 
PEERS calling) to encourage the newcomers (if there are any) are entreated to 
do so.  

I'll miss the fun, myself.  I'll be at Early Music Week at Pinewoods on the 
14th, trying to catch a new garter snake.  

And as for dances where normative-gender-based-position is mixed about, 
there's Chris and Brooke's  thoroughly delightful "Impropriety", a dance well 
worth doing!

Nilos

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:24:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:21:15 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: May Gadd
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
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Okay folks, I'm back!
Many of you know about my life time adventure, my six month trip to the
island of Tristan da Cunha (look it up in a good atlas...). And I have even
recovered from that nasty bronchitis I brought back with me and which kept
me pretty much without energy for eleven weeks. But all that is past now,
and normal life - including dancing - is happening again.

May Gadd -
I venture the guess that many of the folks who knew her are still around,
but not members of the electronic community and therefore this list. BEFORE
she died and BEFORE she became disoriented, I urged several members of the
ECD community in New York to collect information from her, but there
appeared to be little interest then. In the last few years many of her
erstwhile contacts have died or at least faded from the dance scene.
Perhaps the time is ripe to collect reminiscences from the folks who are
still around and willing to share.
 
I 'fell into' the US scene of ECD because of Frieda Gratzon's enthusiasm,
that was in the late 60s. In 1970 I met Gay. She stayed in my house several
times I invited her to dance with the Germantown Country Dancers. I was
invited to a reception in her apartment in honor of Peter Kennedy's
visit..(We should ask him about folks on that side of the pond who were
acquainted as well). But I would not presume that I 'knew' her. There are
others who do. Let's find out who they are and then let's hear/read from
them.   
Don't call me morbid: I went to St. Vincent's after her death and saw her
body in the morgue to say my very private goodbye to that grand dame of
dancing. She looked better then than during her hospital stay and the
months before that. Peace was with her.

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny Budnick

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:15:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:01:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: *Ces plaisirs* [was: general comments]
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 6/23/01 6:15:35 AM, elf-AT-
cape.com writes:

<< I am under the impression that historically, in their original social 
context, the dance events were opportunities for generally the young, 
single generation to meet and play together, to display social skills 
and "court" under the "supervision" of their elders. >>

My mother, Mireille Backer, used to decribe how moving down -- or up -- the 
line gave the ladies & gentlemen of the period an opportunity to get a sense 
-- however transient -- of their opposites' touch & "scent" & they could thus 
determine whether there was someone they wished to invite to dance -- or, 
possibly avoid -- later on in the evening.

Judy (B) Grunberg who'll dance with anyone, of any species or gender, 
providing they get to approximately the right place at approximately the 
right time, preferably with  grace and look like they're having a great time.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:15:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:08:08 -0400
From: Michael Cicone <cicone-AT-
law.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: General comments, gender, plaisirs, et al.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p04320401b75aa3bb8110-AT-
[140.247.41.112]>
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References: <89.86a8b65.28663af6-AT-
aol.com>

Please forgive the extreme length of this message, but it's my first 
and probably last contribution to this discussion and I'm trying to 
fit all my thoughts in, as briefly as I can. First, I have to say 
I've really enjoyed and appreciated this entire conversation and 
everyone's contributions.  I think it's much-needed; thanks to all 
for so many thoughtful comments and responses.

The interchange so far has expanded to touch on a number of different 
but related issues:  outreach to the gay community, and the 
"gay-friendliness" of dances; the role of courtship in the ECD form 
and tradition; gender-balance policies at events; and gender-neutral 
teaching language, to name a few.   It's a big subject, and one that 
has been close to my heart for over 20 years of dancing and teaching 
ECD.  First, some personal background; then, why it's relevant to the 
discussion.

The bulk of my experience with ECD, both dancing and teaching, has 
been in a "tradition" that  arose originally (I believe) with Carl 
Wittman and fellow teachers in their community in rural Oregon in the 
70's and 80's.  This tradition has two aspects:  (1) formation of 
sets without asking partners (you come to the set individually, and 
the person you find on the other side of the set is your partner); 
and (2) the use of gender-neutral teaching language. (The Heather and 
Rose dances in Oregon, as well as our Tuesday dance in Boston, and 
dances in Durham, NC and possibly a few others are all descendants in 
this history and take this form; see Brooke and Chris' contribution 
to this discussion, and also the H & R web site at 
www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose for more info).   The non-partnering 
set formation was chosen as a reflection of the desire to dance as an 
entire community, rather than as a collection of couples; the 
gender-neutral teaching language developed next, to address the dance 
sets as they actually were, with men and women distributed randomly.

This way of dancing is, for me anyway, incredibly profound, in ways 
that directly address the issues of the discussion so far:

	---It is inherently inclusive of everyone.  Because men and 
women are, as a matter of course, distributed randomly in the sets, 
same-sex couples, mixed-sex couples, switched-side mixed couples--all 
are "normal."  Dancers don't have to wait to be asked, or rush to 
ask, thereby eliminating what can be common sources of anxiety, 
especially for newcomers.  At the same time, while the set-formation 
convention is un-partnered, dancers who *prefer* to dance with a 
particular partner or on a particular side of the set can still do 
so; no configuration is "wrong."

	---Because the teaching language is gender-neutral, it 
applies equally to every person on the floor, and every dancer is 
addressed directly.   I think this point is especially important, 
because I've found it has relevance to more mainstream ECD traditions 
as well, especially as it becomes more common and accepted in all of 
our dances, whether by preference or "necessity," for there to be 
same-sex couples on the floor (and --hallelujah!--I've found this to 
be more common and accepted than ever).   I know from experience that 
it's completely possible, without causing any confusion, to teach 
with gender-neutral language at "regular" dances.  Why do this?  It 
ensures that everyone is addressed directly--for example, if I say 
"first corner number one" rather than "first man," women dancing in 
that position won't have to translate or pretend, and yet it's clear 
to everyone who is meant.  This is a subtle but, I feel, important 
indication of respect for dancers.  In addition, descriptions based 
on position rather than gender tend often to be clearer and emphasize 
the bigger patterns of the dance, as Brooke and Chris pointed out, 
which makes for better, more aware dancing.

	---The issue of gay-friendliness, while obviously affected by 
the attitude of the dancers, is I think also tied in with the 
question of teaching language.  My experience as a gay man at 
mainstream dances jives with Nilos',  but even at dances where I feel 
relatively comfortable dancing with another man--and thank goodness 
such dances are more common than they were--hearing gender terms from 
the teacher still grates.  It can't help but come across as a 
built-in and not-so-subtle message about who this dancing is "really 
for," and I'll bet it contributes to the fact that, as Nilos said, 
the gay people she brings to mainstream dances feel the pressure to 
act straight, and don't come back.

	---Finally, such an approach makes it possible for the ECD 
form to express and hold everything that it is capable of, all that 
we as dancers can bring to it.  It can be about courtship, and often 
is; now it can be about courtship of all sorts!  But as most of us 
know, it can also be about (and I'm paraphrasing Carl here) the love 
of movement, the love of music, the experience of community, the 
intellectual challenge, even the spiritual desire to be part of a 
pattern greater than ourselves.  De-emphasizing (not 
excluding--dancers can still dance in heterosexual couples on the 
usual sides, if they wish) partnering and gender roles can open the 
door to experiencing these things for themselves, disassociated from 
any courtship expectations.  And in my experience it fosters a strong 
sense of community and welcoming to newcomers.  "We're all in this 
together" is what's behind it all, and the message sinks in.

While of course I would love to see more ECD dances and events run 
this way, I expect that most established dances will continue along 
their current paths, and that's fine--every  dance has it's own 
character and reflects the community it is part of.  But I hope that 
admirable discussions like this one will lead to more thought about 
ways dances can stretch to become stronger and more inclusive, and 
maybe attract new dancers too!

Thanks for the opportunity to put in my $.02.

Michael Cicone



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:47:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:31:04 -0400
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing...and gender, for that matter.
To: ECD-AT-
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[63.211.185.76]>
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Nilos said:

>  I don't, myself, see the need for gender-free dancing, if everybody is free
>to assume whatever dance-floor gender they fancy, for the duration of a
>dance, or an evening, or the period between one costume change and the next.

Hear, hear!  Here's to good dancing, with less fussiness...

cheers - Linda
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:18:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 23:18:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wolfelinda-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: BALL PROGRAM QUESTION
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Does anyone out there know (or even have an opinion about) whether, in the 
early part of the 19th century, a person who'd been invited to a ball (the 
dances were mostly cotillions by then) would have been given in advance a 
listing or program of the dances that were to be done?  
                                From:  Linda Wolfe (wolfelinda-AT-
aol.com)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:42:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:29:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: BALL PROGRAM QUESTION
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Linda asked:

> Does anyone out there know (or even have an opinion about) whether, in the
> early part of the 19th century, a person who'd been invited to a ball (the
> dances were mostly cotillions by then) would have been given in advance a
> listing or program of the dances that were to be done?
       
Cotillions are big in the 18th century, but largely supplanted by
quadrilles in the early-mid 19th.  (This happens faster in the US than the UK
because we're in contact with French dancing masters when quadrilles are
developed, while the Brits have the dancing masters who fled the Revolution but
don't get up-to-date ones until after the Napoleonic Wars are over.)  
                     
I don't think you'd get a list or program in advance.  You
might well get a dance card when you got there (although this becomes more
common later in the century).  While a public ball - one that had an
advertisement - might mention that they'd be doing some current dance craze
(Philadelphia Hop Waltz, say) - there wouldn't be a set list.

The quadrille sets were standardized, so if you were quadrille-qualified you
could attend balls confidently without worrying about which quadrilles.  (And
Victorian balls might do the same ones several times in an evening, with
different music.)

(Answers should of course be moderated by what country and class you're in.  I
think it's clear that Jane Austen's rusticated minor gentry don't even do dance
cards.)  

-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 23:15:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:58:56 -0400
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The math, revisited
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010624.021039.-125971.2.solweber-AT-
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Hi, Giovanni:  Hey, I was just kidding.  Anyway, I was *wondering* 
if any twos would catch on.  (Perhaps they'd be willing if they got
a discount.)


Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:00:57 -0700
From: giovanni de amici <sbecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The math
Message-ID: <3B33DC39.F2040DA1-AT-
yahoo.com>

beg your pardon? is this 'applied math' gone beserk?

sol weber wrote:
> 
> ... In a duple minor line, with no extra couples, at the end
> of each round the couple spit out at the bottom can gallop to the top
> and become a new "one" with the odd couple created at the top.  That
> "two" will not have been robbed of becoming a "one", just a case of
> delayed gratification.  They WILL become a one when they reach the
> bottom and it's THEIR turn to gallop.  ...


In all duple minor dances I know, the ones travel downward, the twos
travel upward: the only way to become the 'last' couple (the one 'spit
out', in your parlance) at the end of the set is to be a couple one! 
No couple two EVER reaches the bottom!
Each and every couple two alon the entire set, in your scenario, will be
condemned to remain a couple two forever, since only couple ones will
reach the bottom and become eligible to rush to the top and become
couple ones again.
I pray nobody ever tries this 'scheme' in real life.
Giovanni De Amici

-+++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
+++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, and 
  misc musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com ; members.nbci.com/rounds
Urgent message?  Please phone.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:34:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:35:54 -0700
From: srotenbe-AT-
impop.bellatlantic.net
Subject: Re: General comments, gender, plaisirs, et al.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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References: <89.86a8b65.28663af6-AT-
aol.com> <p04320401b75aa3bb8110-AT-
[140.247.41.112]>

Michael,
Please don't make this your last contribution to the ECD list.  It was a
beautifully clear and sensitive statement.  Thank you.
Sandy Rotenberg


Michael Cicone wrote:

> Please forgive the extreme length of this message, but it's my first
> and probably last contribution to this discussion and I'm trying to
> fit all my thoughts in, as briefly as I can. First, I have to say
> I've really enjoyed and appreciated this entire conversation and
> everyone's contributions.  I think it's much-needed; thanks to all
> for so many thoughtful comments and responses.
>
> The interchange so far has expanded to touch on a number of different
> but related issues:  outreach to the gay community, and the
> "gay-friendliness" of dances; the role of courtship in the ECD form
> and tradition; gender-balance policies at events; and gender-neutral
> teaching language, to name a few.   It's a big subject, and one that
> has been close to my heart for over 20 years of dancing and teaching
> ECD.  First, some personal background; then, why it's relevant to the
> discussion.
>
> The bulk of my experience with ECD, both dancing and teaching, has
> been in a "tradition" that  arose originally (I believe) with Carl
> Wittman and fellow teachers in their community in rural Oregon in the
> 70's and 80's.  This tradition has two aspects:  (1) formation of
> sets without asking partners (you come to the set individually, and
> the person you find on the other side of the set is your partner);
> and (2) the use of gender-neutral teaching language. (The Heather and
> Rose dances in Oregon, as well as our Tuesday dance in Boston, and
> dances in Durham, NC and possibly a few others are all descendants in
> this history and take this form; see Brooke and Chris' contribution
> to this discussion, and also the H & R web site at
> www.opendoor.com/heatherandrose for more info).   The non-partnering
> set formation was chosen as a reflection of the desire to dance as an
> entire community, rather than as a collection of couples; the
> gender-neutral teaching language developed next, to address the dance
> sets as they actually were, with men and women distributed randomly.
>
> This way of dancing is, for me anyway, incredibly profound, in ways
> that directly address the issues of the discussion so far:
>
>         ---It is inherently inclusive of everyone.  Because men and
> women are, as a matter of course, distributed randomly in the sets,
> same-sex couples, mixed-sex couples, switched-side mixed couples--all
> are "normal."  Dancers don't have to wait to be asked, or rush to
> ask, thereby eliminating what can be common sources of anxiety,
> especially for newcomers.  At the same time, while the set-formation
> convention is un-partnered, dancers who *prefer* to dance with a
> particular partner or on a particular side of the set can still do
> so; no configuration is "wrong."
>
>         ---Because the teaching language is gender-neutral, it
> applies equally to every person on the floor, and every dancer is
> addressed directly.   I think this point is especially important,
> because I've found it has relevance to more mainstream ECD traditions
> as well, especially as it becomes more common and accepted in all of
> our dances, whether by preference or "necessity," for there to be
> same-sex couples on the floor (and --hallelujah!--I've found this to
> be more common and accepted than ever).   I know from experience that
> it's completely possible, without causing any confusion, to teach
> with gender-neutral language at "regular" dances.  Why do this?  It
> ensures that everyone is addressed directly--for example, if I say
> "first corner number one" rather than "first man," women dancing in
> that position won't have to translate or pretend, and yet it's clear
> to everyone who is meant.  This is a subtle but, I feel, important
> indication of respect for dancers.  In addition, descriptions based
> on position rather than gender tend often to be clearer and emphasize
> the bigger patterns of the dance, as Brooke and Chris pointed out,
> which makes for better, more aware dancing.
>
>         ---The issue of gay-friendliness, while obviously affected by
> the attitude of the dancers, is I think also tied in with the
> question of teaching language.  My experience as a gay man at
> mainstream dances jives with Nilos',  but even at dances where I feel
> relatively comfortable dancing with another man--and thank goodness
> such dances are more common than they were--hearing gender terms from
> the teacher still grates.  It can't help but come across as a
> built-in and not-so-subtle message about who this dancing is "really
> for," and I'll bet it contributes to the fact that, as Nilos said,
> the gay people she brings to mainstream dances feel the pressure to
> act straight, and don't come back.
>
>         ---Finally, such an approach makes it possible for the ECD
> form to express and hold everything that it is capable of, all that
> we as dancers can bring to it.  It can be about courtship, and often
> is; now it can be about courtship of all sorts!  But as most of us
> know, it can also be about (and I'm paraphrasing Carl here) the love
> of movement, the love of music, the experience of community, the
> intellectual challenge, even the spiritual desire to be part of a
> pattern greater than ourselves.  De-emphasizing (not
> excluding--dancers can still dance in heterosexual couples on the
> usual sides, if they wish) partnering and gender roles can open the
> door to experiencing these things for themselves, disassociated from
> any courtship expectations.  And in my experience it fosters a strong
> sense of community and welcoming to newcomers.  "We're all in this
> together" is what's behind it all, and the message sinks in.
>
> While of course I would love to see more ECD dances and events run
> this way, I expect that most established dances will continue along
> their current paths, and that's fine--every  dance has it's own
> character and reflects the community it is part of.  But I hope that
> admirable discussions like this one will lead to more thought about
> ways dances can stretch to become stronger and more inclusive, and
> maybe attract new dancers too!
>
> Thanks for the opportunity to put in my $.02.
>
> Michael Cicone

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:25:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:28:15 -0400
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Buck Roses ( major change of topic)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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oemcomputer>
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While strolling through the spectacular rose garden in the University of
Kentucky Arboretum  this evening, I was reminded of something about which I
meant to inquire some time ago. Who was Dr. Griffith Buck, and what was his
connection to traditional music and dance?

 While affiliated with the University of Iowa, Dr. Buck helped develop
numerous beautiful roses, and gave them names like "Country Dancer",
"Folksinger", "Square Dancer", "Polonaise" "Do-Si-Do", "Mountain Music",
"Prairie Clogger" "Polka Time", and more. What is the connection? All I can
find online about Dr. Buck concerns his beautiful roses...see

http://www.ag.iastate.edu/centers/cad/rose1html

for more information and photographs of these wonderful roses, some of which
can also be seen at the UK arboretum here in Lexington. It is obvious that
Dr. Buck was well-aware of traditional music and dance, and I wonder if
anyone knew him or remembers dancing with him, or knows of some other
connection.

Susan Booker

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:22:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:11:05 -1000
From: Alvin Keali'i Chock <alchock-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: May Gadd's Sexual Preferences
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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The recent prolonged discussion of the sexual preferences of the late May
Gadd, who has been mercifully spared this degrading public speculation,
reminds me of some words of wisdom passed along to me by my maternal
Grandmother.  Grandma was an actress in a generation when all theater people
were considered wanton wastrels.  She lived and traveled surrounded by
friends of all sexual persuasions and paramutations.  She observed that the
only people who spent time talking about other people's sex lives were the
ones who had none of their own.

Yona Chock
=================================================
Yona  B.  &  Al  Keali'i  Chock
AARDVARK ADVENTURES Family Entertainment
    [Yona Chock, The Magic Storyteller (R)  -
http://www.montysmagic.com/magicians/yona_chock.html  and
http://db.hawaiientertainers.com/ychock/  ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Artists-in-the-Schools  (American Folk Dance, Storytelling)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Adjunct Colleague of Botany,  University of Hawai'i at Manoa
Retired Foreign Service Specialist (International Regional Director), Animal
& Plant Health Inspection Service, U. S. Department of Agriculture



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:50:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:50:32 -0400
From: "Stein, Ben" <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: May Gadd's Sexual Preferences
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Alvin Keali'i Chock wrote:

> The recent prolonged discussion of the sexual preferences of the late May
> Gadd, who has been mercifully spared this degrading public speculation,
> reminds me of some words of wisdom passed along to me by my maternal
> Grandmother.  Grandma was an actress in a generation when all theater people
> were considered wanton wastrels.  She lived and traveled surrounded by
> friends of all sexual persuasions and paramutations.  She observed that the
> only people who spent time talking about other people's sex lives were the
> ones who had none of their own.
>
> Yona Chock
> =================================================
> Yona  B.  &  Al  Keali'i  Chock
> AARDVARK ADVENTURES Family Entertainment
>     [Yona Chock, The Magic Storyteller (R)  -
> http://www.montysmagic.com/magicians/yona_chock.html  and
> http://db.hawaiientertainers.com/ychock/  ]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Artists-in-the-Schools  (American Folk Dance, Storytelling)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Adjunct Colleague of Botany,  University of Hawai'i at Manoa
> Retired Foreign Service Specialist (International Regional Director), Animal
> & Plant Health Inspection Service, U. S. Department of Agriculture

Well said! Good for you Yona! I new May Gadd, slightly I must admit, and she was
a delight. As for her sex life:
                    A. It was none of my business!
                    B. I didn't give a damn!

Ben Stein

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:22:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: sex life vs. sexual orientation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10106250858540.12837-100000-AT-
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i agree with two recent posters that may gadd's sex life is none of our
business.  however, i don't think that that is what people have actually been
inquiring about!  

there is a distinction between sexual orientation (a term i prefer to
"preference") and sex life. to put it in concrete terms, i am not
interested in the details of my brother's sex life, but i *am* glad that
he came out (as bisexual) to our family.  

straight people display their sexual orientation all the time without
thinking about it: going to dances as couples, displaying spouse/family
pictures on their desks, etc.  that's not the same as talking about what
they do in bed. 

thanks to the many thoughtful and articulate contributors to this thread.

susie lorand
princeton, nj, usa

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:41:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:36:41 -0400
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Broadstairs Folk Week
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <200106251040_MC3-D716-A86B-AT-
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MESSAGE SENT ON BEHALF OF DAVE STEPHENS, SOCIAL DANCE MANAGER, BROADSTAIRS
FOLK WEEK

BROADSTAIRS FOLK WEEK SOCIAL DANCE PROGRAMME
10TH - 17TH AUGUST 2001
HILDERSTONE ARTS CENTRE, BROADSTAIRS, KENT, UK

Once again, top callers and musicians have been booked to come to
Broadstairs for the Social Dance Programme. The venue is the Hilderstone
Arts Centre, just a few minutes walk away from the Festival Campsite. Or if
you are driving, parking is available.

Our callers will lead a variety of workshops and dances based on material
from both sides of the Atlantic, ranging from Playford to modern
compositions.

The week starts with a Welcome Dance on Friday 10th August. On Saturday
11th
August until Friday 17th August there will be two workshops each morning,
another in the afternoon and an evening dance. And don't forget that if
your
feet are in need of a rest, Broadstairs Folk Week has hundreds of other
events such as concerts, pub sessions, shows and torchlight processions to
tempt you!

Week season, weekend season and day tickets are available. You may also pay
at the door for Social Dance sessions (£2.00 per workshop and £4.00 per
evening dance), however please note that camping on the Festival Site is
only allowed if you purchase a week/weekend/day ticket.

A Souvenir Programme giving details of *all* events is available priced
£2.50 (including P&P) from: Broadstairs Folk Week Festival Office,
Pierremont Hall, Broadstairs, Kent. CT10 1JX. Call them on (01843) 604080
or
e-mail them at info-AT-
folk-week.demon.co.uk for further booking information.

If you have any specific questions concerning the Social Dance Programme,
please contact me on (01843) 591701 or e-mail at
david.stephens-AT-
ukgateway.net. 
If you would like the following information in leaflet form, perhaps for
display at 
your local club/group, please let me know your address and how many you
require.

Kind regards
Dave Stephens
Social Dance Manager - Broadstairs Folk Week
--------------------------------------------
SOCIAL DANCE PROGRAMME 2001

CALLERS
Nic Broadbridge
John Harris
Colin Hume
Ray Taylor

MUSICIANS
Aidan Broadbridge
B & B
Daphne Baker
Kevin Downham
Pilgrim's Way
The Rampions

FRIDAY 10th AUGUST
1930-2300: Ray with B & B & Daphne Baker

SATURDAY 11th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Three, Four, More":- Ray with B & B
1115-1245: "Square and Fair":- John with B & B
1500-1700: "Tea Dance (Playford-ish)":- Ray with Rampions
1930-2300: "American Hoedown":- John with Rampions

SUNDAY 12th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Dances with a Difference":- Colin with Rampions
1115-1245: "Purcell/Kynaston Ball (prep.)":- Nic with Rampions
1500-1700: "American Mix":- John with Rampions
1930-2300: Ray with Kevin/Aidan (including guest spot from NYFTE)

MONDAY 13th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Old World - New Dances I":- Nic with Kevin/Aidan
1115-1245: "Challenging Squares":- Colin with Kevin/Aidan
1500-1700: "Singing Calls":- Ray with Pilgrim's Way
1930-2300: "Purcell/Kynaston Ball":- Nic with Kevin/Aidan

TUESDAY 14th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Contra Complications I":- John with Kevin/Aidan
1115-1245: "Modern Playford":- Colin with Kevin/Aidan
1500-1700: "Maggot Pie":- Colin with Pilgrim's Way
1930-2300: Colin with Pilgrim's Way

WEDNESDAY 15th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Walsh":- Nic with Pilgrim's Way
1115-1245: "Squares and Contras":- Colin with Pilgrim's Way
1500-1700: "Non-Singing Squares":- John with B & B
1930-2300: "Thank you for an interesting evening":- Colin with Pilgrim's
Way

THURSDAY 16th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Singing Squares":- John with Pilgrim's Way
1115-1245: "Old World - New Dances II":- Nic with Pilgrim's Way
1500-1700: "Dances from Mid-West Folklore":- John with Kevin/Aidan
1930-2300: Nic with Kevin/Aidan

FRIDAY 17th AUGUST
0930-1100: "Real Playford":- Colin with Kevin/Aidan
1115-1245: "Contra Complications II":- John with B & B
1500-1700: "Puzzles for Perseverers":- Nic with Kevin/Aidan
1930-2300: "Goodbye to BFW": Nic, John, Colin with Pilgrim's Way

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:57:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:56:18 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: dance card book
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05100302b75d0f2ea57d-AT-
[140.186.54.215]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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this is last call for orders for the book.  19 people have responded 
so far, one in England!

If you're on the edge of the fence, just email me and we can talk about it.

Thanks, so much and especially to Loretta for her very generous 
recommendation.  It's really neat to have contact with people who 
have figured out how to use something you've created and make it work 
for them, especially something so personal as a set of dance cards! 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:54:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:54:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christine Robb <cedar-AT-
interlog.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: BALL PROGRAM QUESTION
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96r.1010625124318.15551B-100000-AT-
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2001, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Linda asked:
> 
> > Does anyone out there know (or even have an opinion about) whether, in the
> > early part of the 19th century, a person who'd been invited to a ball (the
> > dances were mostly cotillions by then) would have been given in advance a
> > listing or program of the dances that were to be done?
>        
> (Answers should of course be moderated by what country and class you're
> in.  I think it's clear that Jane Austen's rusticated minor gentry don't
> even do dance cards.) 

I haven't done any research into this myself, but from what those who have
have mentioned, some Regency-period dances were run by the ladies each
choosing a dance as their turn came up (in either random numbers given at
the door or by social stature, I don't recall the variations).  So for
those who didn't know, the (longways) practice of not dancing until the 1s
reached you was very helpful...


Christine

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:21:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:21:14 -0700
From: giovanni de amici <sbecd-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Back to the Lusitania
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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yahoo.com>
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OOPS,
another nice story which does not pan out when one checks the details.

Lusitania was sank off the southern coast of Ireland adn she was on her
way from New York to Liverpool: as any map of the UK will show,
Liverpool is on the west coast of Britian, facing the Irish Sea. 
Furthermore, Tuscania I (yes, there was also a Tuscania II) sailed from
Glasgow to New York via Liverpool (and back) all her short commercial
life (source: Cunard's own legacy page at  
http://www.cunardline.com/index.cfm?method=legacyship&lang=us&content=legacy&shipline=home).
No ship coming from the west would go through the English Channel (which
is that body of water between the southern coast of England and the
northern coast of France) on her way to Liverpool, since doing so would
put such ship in the North Sea, which is on the opposite side of England
as Liverpool, and force the ship to either double back, or go all the
way north around Scotland.
I doubt any shipping company would allow a captain to take such a
"scenic" route, at substantial cost of time and coal.

Summary: Lusitania and Tuscania I might have planned to cross path in
the Irish Sea, or in St. George's Channel, but certainly NOT in the
English Channel.
Given that those details of the story which can be easily verified are
wrong, I remain skeptical about the entire underlying story.
Happy dancing.
Giovanni De Amici


-name mitted- wrote:
> 
> For anyone still interested, I just found the reference to this issue in
> Country Dance & Song, #6, in an article by May Gadd on Lily Roberts
> Conant:
> 
> "Lily's passage [from England to the US] was booked on the Tuscania which
> was due to pass the Lusitania [traveling from US to England] in the
> English Channel on Friday, May 6, 1915.  
-- 
for information about ECD in the Los Angeles area, please check SBECD's
web page at:
www.geocities.com/sbecd


_________________________________________________________

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Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:32:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:32:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wolfelinda-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #964
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <81.c2d1761.28694e2d-AT-
aol.com>
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For Alan:

Thanks for the opinion.  Not sure you're correct, though.  I have the sense 
that when fancy folks (in America) threw a private ball they told their 
guests in advance what dances would be done.  I'm hoping to find a 
contemporary source that'll tell me for sure (the info is not in From the 
Ballroom to Hell).  By the by, in the US in the first three-four  decades of 
the 19th century, people used the term "cotillions" for "quadrilles."  My 
source is Fanny Kemble, who was here in 1834, and made a snotty comment in 
one of her books about the American habit of calling "what we call 
quadrilles"  cotillions.
                
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:40:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:35:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: 19th century ball programs (was ECD Digest V1 #964)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K571RW1BUK9N6K9L-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Linda wrote:

> Thanks for the opinion.  Not sure you're correct, though.  I have the sense
> that when fancy folks (in America) threw a private ball they told their
> guests in advance what dances would be done.  I'm hoping to find a
> contemporary source that'll tell me for sure (the info is not in From the
> Ballroom to Hell).  

I think I'm right for England, but you could well be right for America.  I
can't claim to know that much about it (and I did say it mattered what 
country and class you were in).

You might look at etiquette books, rather than dance manuals, for the period. I
found an amazingly detailed description of how to organize a ball (in 
late-Victorian England) in an  1870s book called "The Habits of Good Society"
by "The Man in the Club Window.")  [He was perfectly happy to be prescriptive
about the program, specifying how many quadrilles, how many waltzes, polkas,
and galops there should be in an evening.]

> By the by, in the US in the first three-four  decades of
> the 19th century, people used the term "cotillions" for "quadrilles." 

I Did Not Know That.  That's interesting.

> My
> source is Fanny Kemble, who was here in 1834, and made a snotty comment in
> one of her books about the American habit of calling "what we call
> quadrilles"  cotillions.

I would be interested to learn of any further fruits of your research.

-- Alan
                


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:20:59 PST
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:18:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 19th century ball programs (was ECD Digest V1 #964)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010626061838.8628.qmail-AT-
web3306.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
<winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> You might look at etiquette books, rather than dance manuals,
> for the period. I found an amazingly detailed description of
> how to organize a ball (in late-Victorian England) in an 
> 1870s book called "The Habits of Good Society" by "The Man
> in the Club Window.")

For anyone interested, a search for this title on
<http://www.abebooks.com/> turned up 14 copies in various
conditions and ranging from 1850 to 1910 publishing dates. It
was published in England first and later had several printings
in America. Prices range from about $10 for a fair conditoin
1865 copy to $135 for a Very Good condition 1867 copy, "probably
3rd US printing".

Andy in Portland

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Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:35:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:35:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Back to the Lusitania
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.33.0106260826130.93360-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
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On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, giovanni de amici wrote:

> OOPS,
> another nice story which does not pan out when one checks the details.

Makes us realize how many of these "The Story of My Life" books have been
edited by the mind over the years.

Gives me an excuse for not throwing out thse boxes of momentos and diaries
I still have.

Scares me when I realize how many people have gone to prison based on the
memories of eye witnesses.  (There's been a lot of study put into the
lack of reliability of eye witnesses, but they still sway the courts.)

But I do trust my great dancing memories. . .

>
> Lusitania was sank off the southern coast of Ireland adn she was on her
> way from New York to Liverpool: as any map of the UK will show,
> Liverpool is on the west coast of Britian, facing the Irish Sea.
> Furthermore, Tuscania I (yes, there was also a Tuscania II) sailed from
> Glasgow to New York via Liverpool (and back) all her short commercial
> life (source: Cunard's own legacy page at
> http://www.cunardline.com/index.cfm?method=legacyship&lang=us&content=legacy&shipline=home).
> No ship coming from the west would go through the English Channel (which
> is that body of water between the southern coast of England and the
> northern coast of France) on her way to Liverpool, since doing so would
> put such ship in the North Sea, which is on the opposite side of England
> as Liverpool, and force the ship to either double back, or go all the
> way north around Scotland.
> I doubt any shipping company would allow a captain to take such a
> "scenic" route, at substantial cost of time and coal.
>
> Summary: Lusitania and Tuscania I might have planned to cross path in
> the Irish Sea, or in St. George's Channel, but certainly NOT in the
> English Channel.
> Given that those details of the story which can be easily verified are
> wrong, I remain skeptical about the entire underlying story.
> Happy dancing.
> Giovanni De Amici
>
>
> -name mitted- wrote:
> >
> > For anyone still interested, I just found the reference to this issue in
> > Country Dance & Song, #6, in an article by May Gadd on Lily Roberts
> > Conant:
> >
> > "Lily's passage [from England to the US] was booked on the Tuscania which
> > was due to pass the Lusitania [traveling from US to England] in the
> > English Channel on Friday, May 6, 1915.
> --
> for information about ECD in the Los Angeles area, please check SBECD's
> web page at:
> www.geocities.com/sbecd
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Do You Yahoo!?
>
> Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:15:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:56:40 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Treasure Hunting
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <200106260900_MC3-D738-88CF-AT-
compuserve.com>
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I know that some of you are aware of the some of the 'stuff' that sometimes
can be found on ebay. My own resource shelf is fairly well stocked, but
recently these items have shown up for auction:
American Dance:
           Page/Tolman "The Country Dance Book"
           Lloyd Shaw   "The Round Dance Book"
           Henry Ford   "Good Morning, America"
           and various square dance manuals 
           and a facsimile of a dance manual of 
           dances from the Civil War Era 
English Dance:
           Piano Scores for Morris Dancing
           78 rpm records for Playford dances 
           (most likely the ones by military bands)
International Folk Dance:
           Betty Casey  "IFD - USA"
           Dick Kraus   whatever his book is called
           several editions of
           Harris/Pittman/Waller "Dance A While"
           several volumes of the small books
           published under the auspices of the
           Royal Academy of Dancing and the Ling
           Physical Education Association 
            
I searched under "danc* book" and "folk danc*". Have fun.....

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<   Hanny Budnick            
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:28:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:24:05 -0400
From: Torbin Zimmerman <torbin-AT-
sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 19th century ball programs
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B388CF6.4407F68B-AT-
sympatico.ca>
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References: <01K571RW1BUK9N6K9L-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

There would have been a great variety of ball fashions varying by year,
location, social circle, public vs. private.

In support of Christine's points that  in some circumstances the dancers
had numbers and the next up couple leading the dance, Thomas Wilson in
his "Companion to the Ball Room", London, Third Edition (1816/1823),
ranting about the poor state of dancing, has this to say about public
balls:

"It is no uncommon thing to see two or three hundred Persons assemble,
for the express purpose of Dancing Country Dances - all of whom are, in
their _own Opinions_, Dancers; and the Majority eagerly contending for
the Call, to have the Priviledge of selecting and leading off the Dance,
for the purpose of giving the company a Specimen of their Abilities; and
on the Master of Ceremonies, or any other Director of such an Assembly,
calling up the Numbers, these persons stand up with so much
confidence..." (p. 208)

and

"...many Persons, after standing up in the Dance, on finding the Figure
too difficult for them, with a View of concealing their Inability to
perform it, take the Liberty of altering it to one more suitable to
their shallow Capacities, without ever consulting the Lady who _called_
the _Dance_. This is always considered a certain Affront; as no Figure
can be altered, or any Part of it, _without_ consulting the Lady who
_called_ it..." (p. 215)

(Word set off by underscores indicate italics.)

Torbin

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:15:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:10:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #964
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106261510.f5QFAE107688-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wolfelinda-AT-
aol.com writes:
> 
> Thanks for the opinion.  Not sure you're correct, though.  I have the sense 
> that when fancy folks (in America) threw a private ball they told their 
> guests in advance what dances would be done.  I'm hoping to find a 
> contemporary source that'll tell me for sure (the info is not in From the 
> Ballroom to Hell).  By the by, in the US in the first three-four  decades of 
> the 19th century, people used the term "cotillions" for "quadrilles."  My 
> source is Fanny Kemble, who was here in 1834, and made a snotty comment in 
> one of her books about the American habit of calling "what we call 
> quadrilles"  cotillions.

   I don't think this was universally the case.  Perhaps the people she
visited did, but I don't think everyone used the terms interchangeably.
In the Community Dances 1826 manuscript from New Harmony, Indiana (the only
contemporary source I'm at all familiar with) there are both quadrilles and
cotilions and they are each labeled as being one or the other.  It's true
that many of the leaders in that community came from Europe so they may have
brought their nomenclature with them.  However this is at least one example
of an American community where a distinction was made between cotilions and
quadrilles.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:34:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Back to the Lusitania
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Priscilla M. Burrage wrote:

> Scares me when I realize how many people have gone to prison based on the
> memories of eye witnesses.  (There's been a lot of study put into the
> lack of reliability of eye witnesses, but they still sway the courts.)

True.  APPALLINGLY true.  Don't get me started; I could rant about
eyewitness identifications and lineups for hours.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:57:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:51:45 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p04330102b75e7eeeb2fc-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>
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Two thoughts.

#1

The discussion under the "Gender balanc*" topics omitted what might 
be an important question:

Are dancers at a dance festival/ball/week actually customers? I think 
yes, but with a difference. In a way, we are members of a cast. It 
could be argued that the organizers are "casting" the event, and the 
"script" calls for an approximate equal number of men and women.

(I am not an attorney nor do I play one on the Internet.)

#2

Does anyone else remember being at (San Francisco) Bay Area CDS 
American Week (Sierra Swing) in circa 1996 (it was the first year 
there was no English-American week), at an unbalanced camp? Many more 
women than men attended.

Many of the women and some of the men complained. Some women were 
booking aggressively in order to consistently get a male partner. 
Other women were not booking aggressively and as a result partnered 
mostly with other women or sat out. I never felt like I could dance 
with another man, which I like to do once in a while, or even sit out 
without hiding.

Clint Gilbert, I beleive, sometime toward the middle of the week, 
called a camp meeting to air all this out. What we worked out for 
ourselves,  was something like this:

* Men would take into account the women sitting out and for the women 
dancing with other women, when getting a partner for the next dance
* Women would look out for each other and not monopolize the men.

The rest of the week was much better. Still, some of the women said 
they would not attend a non-gender-balanced week again.

This was a week of contra, square and swing dancing, not English.
-- 
Gary D. Shapiro
Primate
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:28:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:28:49 -0400
From: Deb Karl <debkarl-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B38E26E.29F61F14-AT-
wi.mit.edu>
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[192.168.0.2]>


> * Men would take into account the women sitting out and for the women
> dancing with other women, when getting a partner for the next dance
> * Women would look out for each other and not monopolize the men.

I've come up with the same solution in my head (let's see...if there are
40 men and 60 women and everyone prefers to dance some of the time with
the opposite gender, then if we _took turns_ everyone would be happy...)
but have not been at a dance where it's put into practice.

We're a community.  It would be lovely if each of us could do our part
to see that everyone has an enjoyable time at the dance.

Looking forward to trying the Jamaica Plain dance tonight for the first
time (Michael Ciccone gave an appealing description of its traditions to
the List this past weekend),

Deb Karl
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:59:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:59:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106261203520.8754-100000-AT-
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On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Gary D. Shapiro wrote:

> Are dancers at a dance festival/ball/week actually customers? I think 
> yes, but with a difference. In a way, we are members of a cast. It 
> could be argued that the organizers are "casting" the event, and the 
> "script" calls for an approximate equal number of men and women.

It's a highly creative argument, but I wouldn't bet very much on its
success.  I think a court considering the question would, for starters, be
quick to ask that a copy of this script be entered into evidence.  I think
the court would probably want to inquire into the audition process used to
select the actors for parts in these performances -- and might be less than
impressed with the answer that, in fact, the *only* requirement the
"script" imposes on the "cast" is that it contain an equal number of each
sex.  I suspect the court might want some information about how many people
typically comprise the audiences at such performances, and whether whether
other common earmarks of dramatic presentations are present, such as
costuming, rehearsals, and critical reviews.  Finally, I think the court
might be somewhat bemused at learning that not only are these actors not
paid for their professional services, they're not even volunteers, and in
point of fact they pay for the privilege of acting in these performances.
I think that last one would pretty much nail it to the wall, in fact.  

[Description of non-gender-balanced dance camp snipped.]

> The rest of the week was much better. 

Good.  I'm glad things worked out.

> Still, some of the women said 
> they would not attend a non-gender-balanced week again.

What we seem to have, then, is a choice between telling some women who want
to attend that they're not permitted to, or structuring the event in such a
way that some women don't want to attend in the first place.  I understand
that neither alternative is ideal, but it's not immediately obvious to me
why the first is better than the second, and I still maintain that the
second has the advantage of being within the law.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:50:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:47:31 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Gender balance
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
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Message-ID: <200106261750_MC3-D752-931F-AT-
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This is hearsay:
I was told that during war time, WWII that is, when most male dancers were
out fighting, there was a sign on the wall at the dance hall at Cecil Sharp
House "Mixed couples on the floor only".

In 1975 I attended a lovely dance weekend at Halsway Manor. There were six
male dancers to ca. 40 female ones. Were that same combination at an
American event, the longways would invariably be started off by "mixed"
couples at the top, followed by the rest of the women dancing with other
women. Not so at Halsway that weekend: the sets were started by couples of
women, and somewhere down the set were "mixed couples". Folks did not mix
freely, the men ALWAYS danced with the same woman. What surprised me at
that time was that when I asked one of the women to dance, she replied that
she already had a partner (who was not in the room at that moment), who
turned out to be another lady....

Again, 1970s, Pinewoods English Week. Under May Gadd's administration,
campers were admitted on a first apply first get admitted basis, no gender
balance. This at a time when women dancing together was a necessary evil if
they wanted to dance at all. And when the young girls from the pond
community appeared for the evening dances, many a middle-aged or older
woman, who had traveled halfway across the country to be at camp, sat out
too many times. A few did not come back in following years because of that.
A few "Ladies' Choice" dances throughout the evening parties tacitly
acknowledged that the gender imbalance - at least for some - created a less
than perfect situation.

In my experience it is only in recent times that folks, regardless of
gender, invite each other to the dance. And many of us have discovered that
a good dance experience is independent of the partner's gender. Alas, that
elevates participation in the dance to an end in itself rather than a means
to an end, which it likely was in earlier times. Joy in movement to music
with a group, in this instance within the movement vocabulary and
choreography common to what we call English country dance - aren't those
the elements that attract and hold us? We already know that being English
doesn't have anything to do with it...

  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny Budnick

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:15:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:01:10 -0700
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
pobox.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <p04330104b75eacd07ae9-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>
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At 12:59 PM -0700, on 6/26/01, Jon Berger wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Gary D. Shapiro wrote:
>
>>  Are dancers at a dance festival/ball/week actually customers? I think
>  > yes, but with a difference. In a way, we are members of a cast.

[snip]

>
>It's a highly creative argument, but I wouldn't bet very much on its
>success.

[etc. snipped]

My point was that we don't come to a dance and consume it, as we 
would when attending a performance. We are actually part of the 
product we are consuming. The nature of the product depends on us 
dancers. To produce a product with a certain flavor or quality, the 
producers may need to be selective about all the inputs, not just the 
band and dance leader.

Having said that, I would hate to see a dance producer carry this too 
far; part of the magic, I think, is just what sort of alchemy a 
particular mix of dancers that has chosen itself makes with the music 
and teaching and weather and phases of the  moon. It is impossible to 
predict, and so difficult to impossible to engineer.

If I was producing a dance, I might say:

"This event can accommodate a total of n _people_. Based on 
historical patterns, we expect more women in attendance than men.

"We encourage men to take into account the women who sat out and who 
danced with each other as they seek out a partner for the next dance. 
We encourage women to look out for each other and 'share the men.' 
Some women, of course, like to dance with each other just fine, thank 
you, as do some men. We encourage acceptance of all partnerships."

Or just follow the Heather & Rose formula.
-- 
Gary Shapiro
Hominid
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:37:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:37:43 -0600
From: Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <a05010403b75ebbc18b3e-AT-
[155.99.169.34]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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pairoducks.monitor.net> <p04330104b75eacd07ae9-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>

>If I was producing a dance, I might say:
>
>"This event can accommodate a total of n _people_. Based on 
>historical patterns, we expect more women in attendance than men.
>
>"We encourage men to take into account the women who sat out and who 
>danced with each other as they seek out a partner for the next 
>dance. We encourage women to look out for each other and 'share the 
>men.' Some women, of course, like to dance with each other just 
>fine, thank you, as do some men. We encourage acceptance of all 
>partnerships."
>
>Or just follow the Heather & Rose formula.


I was wondering about how the Heather and Rose formula might work at 
a dance where it is not normally used, and this got me wondering 
about one aspect of the way they (H&R) do things. Is it the case that 
if two people want to dance together they can join a set as a couple? 
And if so, do they wait for all the spaces above them to be complete 
couples before joining a set, or is it acceptable for them to join 
the set below someone who is still waiting for someone to stand 
opposite?  What happens if that person never gets an opposite?  Is 
that something that just never happens in the culture of The Heather 
and the Rose?  Might it become a problem at a dance in which most 
people had strong expectations about who they were going to dance 
with?

Emma

(who doesn't care what side of the set she's on, nor what sex her partner is)
-- 
-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:15:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:05:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0106261525120.8754-100000-AT-
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On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Gary D. Shapiro wrote:

> At 12:59 PM -0700, on 6/26/01, Jon Berger wrote:
> >On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Gary D. Shapiro wrote:
> >
> >>  Are dancers at a dance festival/ball/week actually customers? I think
> >  > yes, but with a difference. In a way, we are members of a cast.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >
> >It's a highly creative argument, but I wouldn't bet very much on its
> >success.
> 
> [etc. snipped]
> 
> My point was that we don't come to a dance and consume it, as we 
> would when attending a performance. We are actually part of the 
> product we are consuming. The nature of the product depends on us 
> dancers. To produce a product with a certain flavor or quality, the 
> producers may need to be selective about all the inputs, not just the 
> band and dance leader.

Indeed they may, but the law says they're not allowed to if the "inputs"
happen to be human beings.  The law says that people who run businesses "of
every kind whatsoever" are not permitted to control the flavor or quality
of their establishments by refusing to serve people of certain races,
sexes, or various other attributes.  They have to put up with the flavor or
quality that walks through the door, even if they might prefer some other
flavor or quality.

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:45:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:47:15 -0400
From: Diane Schmit <dschmit-AT-
ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200106270345.XAA12415-AT-
granger.mail.mindspring.net>
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pairoducks.monitor.net> <p04330102b75e7eeeb2fc-AT-
[192.168.0.2]>

At 03:28 PM 6/26/01 , you wrote:
>
>> * Men would take into account the women sitting out and for the women
>> dancing with other women, when getting a partner for the next dance
>> * Women would look out for each other and not monopolize the men.
>
>I've come up with the same solution in my head (let's see...if there are
>40 men and 60 women and everyone prefers to dance some of the time with
>the opposite gender, then if we _took turns_ everyone would be happy...)
>but have not been at a dance where it's put into practice.

I have!

Mary Kay Friday, a statistician by profession, often did this calculation.
In recent years as a ball organizer, who knew in advance what the 
registration numbers were, she would come to the ball prepared with 
statistics: At the beginning of the evening, she would announce how 
many of each gender were registered, and what that meant to all of us: 
e.g. if each woman danced 5 (out of 20, for instance) dances with another
woman, (or sat out, if preferred), each of the women in attendance would be
able
to have a male partner for the other 15 dances.

I think this up front announcement helped make everyone aware, and willing
to help assure that everyone had a good time by "doing their share". 

Diane


>
>We're a community.  It would be lovely if each of us could do our part
>to see that everyone has an enjoyable time at the dance.
>
>Looking forward to trying the Jamaica Plain dance tonight for the first
>time (Michael Ciccone gave an appealing description of its traditions to
>the List this past weekend),
>
>Deb Karl
> 
Diane Schmit
dschmit-AT-
ix.netcom.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:33:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:32:00 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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opendoor.com>
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pairoducks.monitor.net> <p04330104b75eacd07ae9-AT-
[192.168.0.2]> <a05010403b75ebbc18b3e-AT-
[155.99.169.34]>

Emma Rushton wrote:

> I was wondering about how the Heather and Rose formula might work at
> a dance where it is not normally used, and this got me wondering
> about one aspect of the way they (H&R) do things. Is it the case that
> if two people want to dance together they can join a set as a couple?

Yes people can join a set as a couple - we discourage people from doing so on a
repeated basis.

> And if so, do they wait for all the spaces above them to be complete
> couples before joining a set, or is it acceptable for them to join
> the set below someone who is still waiting for someone to stand
> opposite?

Yes, we encourage people joining as a couple to come in at the bottom of a
longways. It is not acceptable to leave someone without a partner above them.

> What happens if that person never gets an opposite?  Is
> that something that just never happens in the culture of The Heather
> and the Rose?

This doesn't happen in H&R dances. More info on that below.

> Might it become a problem at a dance in which most
> people had strong expectations about who they were going to dance
> with?

I imagine it could be. If you were trying to encourage forming sets as
individuals (the H&R way) at a dance where people were used to forming as
couples there are a number of ways you might go about it depending on the size,
experience level, attitude... of the group, how many years the dance has been
going, whether it was a one shot or over a period of time proposition, whether
you were a guest or regular teacher. You might try anything from using
'artificial' means such as starting with a circle dance and then squishing to a
longways, to having printed material on the etiquette for the dance, to changing
your teaching language to name a few. Language can be a good first step -
something as simple as replacing 'find a new partner' with 'form longways sets
hands four from the top' or, for a set dance, replacing 'we need one more
couple' to 'we need two (or three...) more dancers'.

Here is some more detailed info on how we encourage people to form sets:

A dance will end. Thank your partner and the set.  The caller will announce the
next dance - perhaps a longways for as many as will, hands four from the top.
Everyone who wants to dance stay on the floor if you have just danced (moving
about the room is good) or come to the floor (generally as individuals rather
than couples) if you chose to sit the previous one out.  By taking hands four
from the top you will ‘shake down’ the longways and determine who is dancing
with whom.  If you want to dance an occasional dance with someone special,
please come in at the bottom after the set had been formed.

Sometimes a couple may find themselves leaving an odd person out ahead of them
in the middle of a longways.  If this happens we encourage you to: 1) shift so
that one of you dances with the odd person out and the hands four continues on
down the longways; or 2) pull out and go to the bottom as a couple so that the
next in line becomes the odd-out's partner and the hands four continues on down
the longways; or 3) invite someone coming to the floor to jump in that spot (or
'we need one dancer').

The ideal is a fast moving and comfortable process. Looking at it on paper it
might appear somewhat contrived or unwieldy but at our regular dances it happens
in a relaxed and organic sort of way.

Brooke and Chris




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:44:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:42:36 -0700
From: Chris Sackett & Brooke Friendly <friendsack-AT-
opendoor.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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opendoor.com>
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pairoducks.monitor.net> <p04330102b75e7eeeb2fc-AT-
[192.168.0.2]> <200106270345.XAA12415-AT-
granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Diane Schmit wrote:(snip)

> e.g. if each woman danced 5 (out of 20, for instance) dances with another
> woman, (or sat out, if preferred), each of the women in attendance would be
> able
> to have a male partner for the other 15 dances.
>
> I think this up front announcement helped make everyone aware, and willing
> to help assure that everyone had a good time by "doing their share".
>

I am uncomfortable with the idea that dancing with another woman would be
'doing my share' as if it were a chore to do so - even if I was at a dance
with more men than women I would want to dance with other women because some
of my favorite dance partners are women.

Brooke


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:04:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01K58L3A1FMG9N6K9L-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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pairoducks.monitor.net> <p04330102b75e7eeeb2fc-AT-
[192.168.0.2]> <200106270345.XAA12415-AT-
granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Brooke wrote:

> Diane Schmit wrote:(snip)

> > e.g. if each woman danced 5 (out of 20, for instance) dances with another
> > woman, (or sat out, if preferred), each of the women in attendance would be
> > able
> > to have a male partner for the other 15 dances.
> >
> > I think this up front announcement helped make everyone aware, and willing
> > to help assure that everyone had a good time by "doing their share".
> >

> I am uncomfortable with the idea that dancing with another woman would be
> 'doing my share' as if it were a chore to do so - even if I was at a dance
> with more men than women I would want to dance with other women because some
> of my favorite dance partners are women.

As a man I think I would be made uncomfortable by an explicit announcement
that I was a rationed commodity.  (On the other hand, knowing Mary Kay I'm
sure she had some way of expressing this that didn't make men feel like
auto tires, sugar, or meat during WWII.)


-- Alan

===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:12:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:11:28 +0100
From: Paul Sartin <psartin-AT-
attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Back to the Lusitania
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3B3A05B0.AF84869-AT-
attglobal.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20010623.121222.-1743135.0.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com> <3B37B95A.E49773FE-AT-
yahoo.com>

giovanni de amici wrote:

> Lusitania was sank off the southern coast of Ireland adn she was on her
> way from New York to Liverpool: as any map of the UK will show,

Ireland is not in the UK.

Paul.
_________________________

Paul Sartin MA (Oxon) LRSM

May Cottage, Wherwell,
Hampshire, SP11 7JS

Tel/fax: +44 (0) 1264 860791
Mobile: +44 (0) 7711 485798


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:39:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:39:51 +0100
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Back to the Lusitania
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3B3A0C56.C5778804-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
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juno.com> <3B37B95A.E49773FE-AT-
yahoo.com> <3B3A05B0.AF84869-AT-
attglobal.net>

Paul Sartin wrote:

> giovanni de amici wrote:
>
> > Lusitania was sank off the southern coast of Ireland adn she was on her
> > way from New York to Liverpool: as any map of the UK will show,
>
> Ireland is not in the UK.
>

<pedantic>
a) unfair editing:  he said:-
"as any map of the UK will show,
Liverpool is on the west coast of Britian, facing the Irish Sea. "
You don't need Ireland on the map he wants you to inspect.
b) Wasn't Ireland part of the UK at the time?  My passport now says
something like "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
</pedantic>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:44:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:39:57 -0500
From: Paul Stamler <pstamler-AT-
pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Morris at Christmas School
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <04cd01c0ff27$cd6db3a0$782b4b0c-AT-
paulstam>
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oemcomputer>

----- Original Message -----
From: SUSAN B BOOKER <susantiq-AT-
prodigy.net>

<<But the question remains: this all seems so simple and straightforward
now.
Why did we have to go through so much grief to get to this obvious (and
sensible) point?>>

Hey, it took decades of struggle and many people's deaths to get to the
obvious and sensible point where two old guys who happened to be of
different colors could share a cup of coffee at the Woolworth's lunch
counter on a cold, snowy day. Old idiocies die hard.

Peace,
Paul


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:36:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:36:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010627173631.67732.qmail-AT-
web20001.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net> wrote:
> Indeed they may, but the law says they're not allowed to if
> the "inputs" happen to be human beings.  The law says that
> people who run businesses "of every kind whatsoever" are not
> permitted to control the flavor or quality of their
> establishments by refusing to serve people of certain races,
> sexes, or various other attributes.  They have to put up with
> the flavor or quality that walks through the door, even if
> they might prefer some other flavor or quality.

Might that even be interpreted that you can't at all limit the
number of people who attend a function? Because by doing so you
"control the flavor" (i.e. allow everyone enough space to dance)
by not allowing some people to be a part of it. Of course the
fire marshall might be able to limit the number of people
allowed in the room, but as long as your number doesn't exceed
that limit I can see that it could actually be interpreted as
illegal to limit the number of dancers at all.

Andy in Portland

__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:48:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #964
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20010627174821.31683.qmail-AT-
web20007.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:
> In the Community Dances 1826 manuscript from New Harmony,
> Indiana (the only contemporary source I'm at all familiar
> with) there are both quadrilles and cotilions and they are
> each labeled as being one or the other.  It's true that
> many of the leaders in that community came from Europe so
> they may have brought their nomenclature with them.  However
> this is at least one example of an American community where
> a distinction was made between cotilions and quadrilles.

It might also be that some of the dances in the manuscript were
written earlier than others and that might have an influence
upon which name they were given.

Andy in Portland

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Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:42:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:42:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Andrew Peterson wrote:

> 
> --- Jon Berger <jberger-AT-
monitor.net> wrote:
> > Indeed they may, but the law says they're not allowed to if
> > the "inputs" happen to be human beings.  The law says that
> > people who run businesses "of every kind whatsoever" are not
> > permitted to control the flavor or quality of their
> > establishments by refusing to serve people of certain races,
> > sexes, or various other attributes.  They have to put up with
> > the flavor or quality that walks through the door, even if
> > they might prefer some other flavor or quality.
> 
> Might that even be interpreted that you can't at all limit the
> number of people who attend a function?

No.  Discrimination is when you refuse your services to a member of a
protected class because of his or her membership in that class.  Limiting
the number of people you serve, without regard to their membership in
protected classes, is not discrimination.  May I tell an applicant for a
job at my company "Sorry, we don't have any open positions" when in fact we
don't have any open positions?  Sure.  Happens all the time; I'm not
obliged to give a job to everyone who asks for one.  May I tell him "Sorry,
we do have an open position, but we don't hire people in wheelchairs?"  No.
That's discrimination on the basis of disability, and it's illegal.
Similarly, a restaurant can say "I'm sorry, we can't seat you because we're
all booked up tonight," but it can't say "I'm sorry, we can't seat you
because we can't accommodate your wheelchair."

May I tell a woman who wants to come to my dance "Sorry, we already have 50
people in here and that's all we want"?  Of course I can.  As you point
out, if I don't say it, at some point the fire marshal will, but it has
nothing to do with fire codes; I can limit the dance to two people if I
feel like it.  May I, however, tell her "Sorry, we already have 25 women in
here and that's all we want"?  No.  That's illegal sex discrimination.
It's no different, in the eyes of the law, from saying "Sorry, we already
have one African American customer in our restaurant and that's all we
want."

And, in case this was the next question, may I accomplish the same thing by
telling her "Sorry, we already have 25 people in here and that's all we
want," and then letting in the next 25 men who come along?  No.  That's
discrimination through actions rather than words, which makes no difference
at all.  It's analogous to a favored practice among motel owners in the bad
old days, who would click on the "No Vacancy" sign when an African American
walked into the office, and then say "sorry, no vacancy, see the sign?"

-------------------------------
Jon Berger
Personal: jberger-AT-
monitor.net    
Business: jon-AT-
perforce.com
http://www.monitor.net/~jberger

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Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:14:41 PST
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:13:33 +0100
From: Alan Corkett <alan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Gender balance
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Dear Hanny Budnick
-----Original Message-----
From: Hanny D. Budnick <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com>
Date: 26 June 2001 22:55
Subject: Gender balance


This is hearsay:
I was told that during war time, WWII that is, when most male dancers were
out fighting, there was a sign on the wall at the dance hall at Cecil Sharp
House "Mixed couples on the floor only".

...I think you will find that as many women were involved in the war effort
too, and not at home.  My view is that the message was represents a pre-war
attitude that came about to overcome the fact the it was a social activity
for both sexes, and not as it had become a female-only occupation subsequent
to the massive male slaughter in the WW1.

In 1975 I attended a lovely dance weekend at Halsway Manor. There were six
male dancers to ca. 40 female ones. Were that same combination at an
American event, the longways would invariably be started off by "mixed"
couples at the top, followed by the rest of the women dancing with other
women.

....this would inevitably depend on who asked whom to dance and in what
order. The women getting up to dance first may be an indication of the fact
that men dance with their wives all evening, but women dancing together was
not new or peculiar to folk dancing.
I can remember going to dance in Sheffied, UK., at the City Hall in the 50's
where I was delighted to see more girls than boys, but found that none of
the girls would dance with any of the boys.  and this was ballroom dancing.
The ladies came together, danced together, and went home together.

Not so at Halsway that weekend: the sets were started by couples of
women, and somewhere down the set were "mixed couples". Folks did not mix
freely, the men ALWAYS danced with the same woman. What surprised me at
that time was that when I asked one of the women to dance, she replied that
she already had a partner (who was not in the room at that moment), who
turned out to be another lady....


I am glad to hear that you are one of the Americans who have visited HM. I
wonder what my wife would think if I ask all the other girls to dance
instead of her and left her sitting out. She would not come again!!

Again, 1970s, Pinewoods English Week. Under May Gadd's administration,
campers were admitted on a first apply first get admitted basis, no gender
balance. This at a time when women dancing together was a necessary evil if
they wanted to dance at all. And when the young girls from the pond
community appeared for the evening dances, many a middle-aged or older
woman, who had traveled halfway across the country to be at camp, sat out
too many times. A few did not come back in following years because of that.
A few "Ladies' Choice" dances throughout the evening parties tacitly
acknowledged that the gender imbalance - at least for some - created a less
than perfect situation.

In my experience it is only in recent times that folks, regardless of
gender, invite each other to the dance. And many of us have discovered that
a good dance experience is independent of the partner's gender. Alas, that
elevates participation in the dance to an end in itself rather than a means
to an end, which it likely was in earlier times. Joy in movement to music
with a group, in this instance within the movement vocabulary and
choreography common to what we call English country dance - aren't those
the elements that attract and hold us? We already know that being English
doesn't have anything to do with it...


...You're probably correct about the being English, although I would find it
difficult to judge as I consider myself English.  It is also difficult to
judge whether it is as enjoyable with a same sex partner, as I always dance
with a woman. We once had a dance where all the men had to dance as women -
I must confess they or we were not very good at it, possibly because it was
something that had never happened before or since.

Anyway I am glad to see you remember Halsway Manor. We now own the Mews
building alongside as well and are gradually providing improved en-suite
accommodation (with toilets etc.) with more support from the members we hope
to pay for all this new work and provide more enjoyment to all visitors, of
whatever religion, sex or nationality.

After 25 years it is probably time to do it again, you're very wlecome. See
www.halswaymanor.co.uk
Regards Alan Corkett




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Archive-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:22:50 PST
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:21:16 +0100
From: Ron Hawkins <rhawk-AT-
wmnt.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Sharing the men around
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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I agree with Alan's comment - As a male, I would feel distinctly
uncomfortable being described as a rationed item at a dance.  Apart from
anything else I would feel extreme pressure to dance every single dance to
"be fair" to the ladies, even if there was a dance I did not wish to do, or
if I simply needed a rest.

Another comment from a different post noted that they actively discouraged
people from "joining a set as a couple on a regular basis".  When I go to a
dance with my wife, I want to dance with her, thank you very much. We met at
Sidmouth, we have played music and danced together for over twenty years and
that suits us very well. The occasional change partner is fine, as is a
deliberate choice of a new partner for a specific dance, but essentially I
go to a dance to dance with the partner I choose.

In either case, I would feel pressured into dancing nearly every dance with
someone different, and would certainly never attend a similar function
again.  Like Alan's, my wife would be far less than pleased if I asked all
the other ladies to dance, leaving her sitting out. She might reasonably ask
"why do you invite me to a dance then spend the whole evening with other
women?". What's the divorce rate like in America?

In virtually all dances and dance clubs that I go to here in the UK,
including those of well-known callers such as John Chapman of Stratford
where we go to play or dance many times a year, things do not happen as has
recently been described: couples get up to dance together, and singles
sitting out make couples up before, or as, they join the dance floor.

Perhaps it is a British thing? I am delighted to dance with whomever I meet
during the course of a dance, but I strongly prefer to choose the lady I
escort to (and from) the dance floor.  The idea that I should dance with
every female in the room "just to share the men around" I find distasteful
in the extreme, and political correctness gone mad.

By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who said that Ms Gadd's
sexual orientation was none of his (or my) business and I care not a jot for
any discussion of it. I thought we were here to discuss dancing?

Ron Hawkins

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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:14:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: CF1125-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Gender balancing
To: ECD-AT-
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I'm finding the discussion of gender balance remarkably unbalanced, so I'd 
like to throw in a few contrary thoughts. I think the argument in favor of 
gender balancing events can be made, and that this is an issue about which 
reasonable (yes, liberal) people of good will can and do disagree. 
Notwithstanding Jon Berger's legal opinions (I'm not a lawyer but I do try to 
be a "reasonable person"), I note that 1) laws vary in different states (I 
believe Jon mentioned this), 2) the ERA never became US law, and 3) no court 
anywhere has issued an opinion as to the legality of gender balancing at 
dance events. Therefore, it would seem at best premature to state quite so 
categorically as Jon does that gender balance is illegal, even in California. 
Further, it would seem quite unlikely that the authors of  gender 
discrimination laws had situations like dance events in mind when they wrote 
the laws.  

Say a gender balance policy states that should an event be oversubscribed as 
of a given date, the organizers shall admit applicants in such a way as to 
keep a gender balance (i.e., gender as a priority above date of application). 
As long as the gender balance applies, a priori, to either sex, it would seem 
that it does not discriminate unfairly against one sex, and a reasonable 
person may very well feel that such gender balancing is better than having a 
Playford Ball or dance week with, say, 120 men and no women - a remote, but 
theoretical possibility in the absence of gender balance. Although it almost 
couldn't happen randomly, imagine that a men's group decides they will all 
join CDSS and try out English Week next year, and all 140 of them send in 
their applications before anyone else! This is clearly a different issue than 
balancing the numbers of blacks and whites, or Catholics and Jews, in that 
the gender balance has a clear positive value to the dance event. Maybe that 
argument wouldn't please all lawyers, lawmakers and judges, but I think it 
could pass muster with many reasonable people. 

Another, more practical, argument/issue, as I see it, is that it really has 
been mostly women who are on BOTH sides of the gender balance issue. Mary Kay 
Friday argued strongly in favor of gender balance. Despite the fairly skewed 
sample on the ECD list, my observation of ECD and contra dancers over the 
past 24 years is that most women dancers prefer to have men as partners, and 
the overwhelming majority of men prefer women as partners. As the gender 
balance issue at major events and camps almost exclusively is an issue of 
extra women, most men simply don't care, and certainly don't mind when there 
are extra women. Yes, I've heard the argument that it's tough to sit out a 
dance, and yes, we can't dance with our favorite other male as a partner, and 
of course there are some men who prefer other men, but I think those are, if 
sincere, relatively weak arguments. It's overwhelmingly women who don't want 
there to be too many women, and it's also women who don't want to be excluded 
because too many women already have been admitted. I'm not prepared to decide 
which group of women is right, but I submit that it's not as cut and dried as 
this discussion as portayed it thus far. 

Just wanting to point out that there are (at least) two sides to this, as 
with most, issues.

Carl Friedman
(whose Baltimore Folk Music Society-sponsored events, including our Playford 
Ball, are NOT gender-balanced)  

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Archive-Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:50:16 PST
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:49:59 +0100
From: Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Sharing the men around
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <MABBKHHLHFFIDCFJKJBBCEJNCCAA.rhawk-AT-
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An interesting observation, and perhaps a reason why ECD in the UK is
populated by an ageing group - while some other forms attract younger,
single groups.

I go to a dance generally with a partner.  However I dance with others who
go who do not have a partner, and who probably are not as good dancers as my
accompanying partner.  My partner is sufficiently confident that she will if
necessary dance with other women in the man's part.

I enjoy dancing with alternate partners - some are better dancers than me
and I hope I'm never too old to learn.  The outside stimulus with dancing
all the time with one partner reduces the experimentation.

But Ron's comment about his wife not wanting to loose him to a bunch of
other women echoes a discussion I had with a dance camp leader from the US
and his wife.  She said that it's the women in a relationship who object to
non-gender balancing.  "Why should I take a man and loose him without some
recompense"

Dance needs to be an inclusive community.  In the US this is much more so -
callers often remind people to swap around and gain a new experience.  In
the UK if you don't start with a partner you don't have anything to swap.

 We need to prevent wallflowers.  A beautiful dancer and caller, who I know
through a mutual non-dancing friend, has dropped out of folk dancing as she
no longer has a regular partner.  She used to go to lots of festivals and
dance is an important element in her life; but now  instead she does scirroc
and jive, where partners change.
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Hawkins" <rhawk-AT-
wmnt.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: 28 June 2001 00:21
Subject: Sharing the men around


...
> Another comment from a different post noted that they actively discouraged
> people from "joining a set as a couple on a regular basis".  When I go to
a
> dance with my wife, I want to dance with her, thank you very much. We met
at
> Sidmouth, we have played music and danced together for over twenty years
and
> that suits us very well. The occasional change partner is fine, as is a
> deliberate choice of a new partner for a specific dance, but essentially I
> go to a dance to dance with the partner I choose.
>
> In either case, I would feel pressured into dancing nearly every dance
with
> someone different, and would certainly never attend a similar function
> again.  Like Alan's, my wife would be far less than pleased if I asked all
> the other ladies to dance, leaving her sitting out. She might reasonably
ask
> "why do you invite me to a dance then spend the whole evening with other
> women?". What's the divorce rate like in America?
>
> In virtually all dances and dance clubs that I go to here in the UK,
> including those of well-known callers such as John Chapman of Stratford
> where we go to play or dance many times a year, things do not happen as
has
> recently been described: couples get up to dance together, and singles
> sitting out make couples up before, or as, they join the dance floor.
>
> Perhaps it is a British thing? I am delighted to dance with whomever I
meet
> during the course of a dance, but I strongly prefer to choose the lady I
> escort to (and from) the dance floor.  The idea that I should dance with
> every female in the room "just to share the men around" I find distasteful
> in the extreme, and political correctness gone mad.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:58:14 PST
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:55:12 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Sharing the men around
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
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When I asked one of my male teachers to be my partner for one dance at an
out-of-town event, he looked at me in surprise and said "I'm honored, but
only if YOU make sure that my wife has a partner for that dance...". I
didn't bother.
Something turned strange somewhere along the line, methinks.

My first husband (I'm married for the second time now) and I always felt
that we had a rich dance experience whether or not we danced together, we
'contributed each other to the dancing group' within the framework of ECD,
SCD and international folk dancing. Of course we had some favorite dances
which we loved to do always with each other as partners. After we parted
company I became increasingly aware of the different experience for a
single lady at a couple-oriented dance event. Neither ECD nor SCD or
contras are comparable to 'couple dances' - they are all group (set) dances
during which one interacts with the whole set, sometimes not meeting up
with one's chosen partner very much at all. So what's the big difference
whether one brings the-one-whom-one-goes-home-with to the set as a PARTNER
vs. meeting that same person as one of the people as a member of the set,
perhaps not (set too long, partner in different set or not dancing this
dance for whatever reason)?
 
Do the 'committed' couples worry whether their steady partner might not
find anyone else for a dance? Do the husbands worry that their wife has to
depend on them to join the set at all?  
The quality of movement does not differ for either gender in ECD or other
anglo-origin group dances, so it is easy to dance the part of the opposite
gender there. 

By appearing at a dance event one is not guaranteed a partner for any or
all dances. Alas, this is not a ballroom event we are talking about, this
is an event where NO dance is a dance for one couple only! We know in
advance that we are going to a GROUP dance where we will interact with
others all the time and have to let go of our constant partner  - at least
temporarily. We are going with the expectation to have a good time - and at
a group event that means not having it at the expense of others. The event
'works' if all, or at least the majority, have a good time because of a
good group experience.
 
I want to believe that those men who are so protective