Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 04:51:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:51:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: rights & lefts To: ECD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My apologies. Marjorie thoughtfully sent me two messages, one with and one without the attachments. I believed that I had forwarded the one without attachments. My system doesn't read any attachments. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:39:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:38:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Orly Krasner Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Spelling To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, All-- While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket (one T). I have no sources at hand with which to confirm this, however. Can someone check? And while we're on the subject, anybody know why it's called "Becket" and not something else?? Much obliged, --Orly (just back from visiting with dance friends in the UK!!) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:53:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 15:52:48 +0100 From: Hugh Stewart Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3986E440.24C2CCCB-AT- ugsolutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Orly Krasner wrote: > > Hi, All-- > While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the > correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket > (one T). I have no sources at hand with which to confirm this, however. > Can someone check? And while we're on the subject, anybody know why it's > called "Becket" and not something else?? Much obliged, > --Orly (just back from visiting with dance friends in the UK!!) Well, I believe it was named after a dance weekend at Camp Becket, MA ( http://home.earthlink.net/~becket/ ) so I am pretty convinced of the spelling of this one. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:30:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:30:45 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: FW: Rights and lefts/right and left through To: English Dance Message-ID: <000201bffbde$3968e370$0f981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Let me amend that instruction below, which now appears between *** W1 starts each half of the figure with the 3s above; M1 with the 2s below. Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU] On Behalf Of Patricia Ruggiero Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 11:20 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: RE: Rights and lefts/right and left through To add to Alan's description -- The figure to which Dianna refers, as it appears in Irish Rover and The Whistling Wind, involves three couples, in the order 3,1,2. The 3s and 2s are improper, the 1s are proper. ***W1 dances with the 3s above; M1 dances with the 2s below.*** If everything works out as it is supposed to, after 8 bars everyone is proper and in the order 2, 1, 3, with the 1s ready to repeat the dance. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:30:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:30:47 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000301bffbde$3ac231e0$0f981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dianna, The diagonal R&L figure takes 8 bars, just as the straight R&L does. One reason for the giving of hands in an 8-bar R&L is to prompt the dancers into making wide turns so as to gracefully dance out the four beats for each change. "Especially fast music" is not required to execute the figure. I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if at all, in ECD. So, diagonal R&L isn't needed to undo something. If diagonal R&L occurred first, then some nifty other figure, again involving the corners, would be needed to undo the R&L. It's quite possible that this figure, or something close to it, has appeared in a clever modern English dance where the track was described but no name was assigned to that track. Can you think of any modern dances where folks cross on the diagonal and then along the side? Pat __________ You wrote: "Trev I saw all the postings about diagonal half rights and lefts in contra dancing but so far haven't seen a reference to an English dance - I'd think you'd have to make a wide arc to use up the time unless is was especially fast music, Dianna" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:57:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Orly Krasner wrote: > While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the > correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket > (one T). This spelling is correct. Herbie called in western Massachusetts and named his dances after the village he called them in. His first dance with this formation was devised for a dance he was calling in Becket, on Rte 8. Herbie's way of explaining the formation was to say that it was a square with no head couples, just sides couples going up and down the floor. Incidently, Rte 8 was called Jacob's Ladder (as in Old Testament) by the early English settlers. A farm along the road had a large unusual rock near the road -- this rock was called Jacob's Pillow. When Ted Shawn bought the farm property to have a place to foster modern dance, he kept the name Jacob's Pillow. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 11:13:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:12:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Wolfelinda-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #773 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For Howard: I am very familiar with books of all kinds from the early nineteenth century (as a result of a nondance book I'm working on) and I can tell you this: in book after book published before 1825 or so, words were often spelled in two or even three different ways. Bad type setting. Bo copy editing. Therefore, I'd say go with the correct French spelling. Best, Linda Wolfe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:03:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:52:12 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: when did rights & lefts (with annex) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000801215212.007ed860-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ouch ! After all the discussion of copyrights (on the other dance list, actually) someone scans pages and pages, distributes them thoughout the world, and the download (whether you want it or not) takes ages and ages. Not too many hard feelings, however, Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:16:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 15:16:00 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008012016.PAA02765-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Orly Krasner wrote: >Hi, All-- > While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the >correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket >(one T). I have no sources at hand with which to confirm this, however. >Can someone check? And while we're on the subject, anybody know why it's >called "Becket" and not something else?? Much obliged, >--Orly (just back from visiting with dance friends in the UK!!) Oooops... I had it in my head wrong... it *is* "Becket", named for Becket, Massachusets, according to the notes in "Zesty Contras". I also see from those notes that the sequence is in CDM6 as "Bucksaw Reel". I have to confess that I wish we called it Bucksaw formation rather than Becket. I was told by prolific contra choreographer Al Olson that Larry Jennings is responsible for naming Becket formation. I'm inclined to believe it, since I've seen the name in no source material older than Zesty Contras. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:30:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:24:03 -0400 From: Robert & Kathryn Johnson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Poussette: push or pull? To: "'ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU'" Message-ID: <01BFFBD5.0F306960-AT- ha10s166.d.shentel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_mNiwtER2yvZ+DumtO5TPig)" --Boundary_(ID_mNiwtER2yvZ+DumtO5TPig) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have struggled for a while with the idea of bein' 'immortal', but am having very little success with it. (the reference was in a post which suggested a tack for 'us mere mortals') I used the term 'clockwise' for a Poussette. Our teachers used it for instructional purposes when further illucidation had quite obviously failed to illuminate. It made perfect sense to me, but then my world was quite familiar with the clock as a directional device as well as a timekeeping one. My wife, on the other hand, made a face as if to say what is that? Both of us were perfectly familiar with the Poussette but many in the group were not. (This is a frequent occurence in our group and has the drawback of having to repeat many, many times for the newbies. However, it does have the reward of seeing that little lightbulb come on when they get it. And, we do set aside some time for more adventurous dances. I guess the point is that instruction/teaching requires communication. Sometimes a little innovation and ingenuity helps a great deal. Once communication is established, then we all can be more traditional and formal in our approach. A Poussette (however spelled and however danced in different dance forms) is still a Poussette even with some variations that might occur from area to area and region to region. My wife and I in our short ten years with this form of dance have tasted most of the variations, ECD, SCD, Contra, Squares, International and have enjoyed all of it even though sometimes we were way out in left field when we should have been in right field. And, the people have been wonderful! Our motto is enjoy, have fun! Life is short, do it while you can! Don't look back, the best is yet to come and is right around the corner! Enjoy! 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Shipman diannashipman-AT- worldnet.att.net PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray Houston, TX 77019-4946 Scottish Country Dancing and More web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman phone: 713-522-1212 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Ruggiero" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 12:30 PM Subject: RE: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through > Dianna, > > The diagonal R&L figure takes 8 bars, just as the straight R&L does. One > reason for the giving of hands in an 8-bar R&L is to prompt the dancers into > making wide turns so as to gracefully dance out the four beats for each > change. "Especially fast music" is not required to execute the figure. > > I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by > name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions > as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the > corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: > half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for > Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if at > all, in ECD. So, diagonal R&L isn't needed to undo something. If diagonal > R&L occurred first, then some nifty other figure, again involving the > corners, would be needed to undo the R&L. > > It's quite possible that this figure, or something close to it, has appeared > in a clever modern English dance where the track was described but no name > was assigned to that track. Can you think of any modern dances where folks > cross on the diagonal and then along the side? > > Pat > __________ > > You wrote: > "Trev > I saw all the postings about diagonal half rights and lefts in contra > dancing but so far haven't seen a reference to an English dance - I'd think > you'd have to make a wide arc to use up the time unless is was especially > fast music, > Dianna" > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:23:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:23:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This one is really a stretch but I'd be glad for any leads. I've been reading a biography of Hans Schneider-Schwerte (C.Leggewie, "Von Schneider zu Schwerte"). He was, as Schneider, a German folk dance teacher *and* officer in the SS. He "disappeared" at the end of WW2, and Schwerte appeared -- and became a leading liberal German academic at Aachen University. In 1995, the beans got spilled and it was an enormous cause celebre in German academic politics. It became very complicated because he really did have a very constructive and productive postwar career as academic liberal, bridge-builder, conciliator, etc. Leggewie's book (p.305) refers to Schneider's attendance at a 1938 EFDSS summer session or meeting ("Tanztreffen"). Schwerte [sorry, the names get confusing] recalled to Leggewie in an interview, that in 1938, at this session or meeting he met "an American woman dance enthusiast, who worked for the Ford automobile firm in the Rocky Mountains." This woman allegedly tried to convince him to come to the States, perhaps even emigrate, though he declined. Any ideas who this might have been? A woman who worked for Ford -- I don't know if "Rocky Mountains" really is any indication, Europeans often have only the vaguest idea of North American geography, like the Englishman I met who assumed he could drive from NYC to Arizona in a few hours. Schneider-Schwerte was born in 1909, so let's assume that the woman would have been born ca.1905-18. thanks Steve Corrsin - ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:47:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:47:04 -0400 From: Lou Vosteen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Attachments To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Since Martin broached the subject of downloads, I'd like to add a comment. If you feel you must attach a document, please use a TEXT file. Not all of us can read someone else's application-specific file and to download 1516 pages (Yes, that's what it was!) of jiberish is very frustrating and totally useless. Lou ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:52:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:52:26 -0700 From: "Hamilton, Bruce" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dippy tunes To: "'ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" CC: "Me (E-mail)" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The Good News: I've found a way to get a dippy tune out of my head. The Bad News: The way is to hum a dippier tune. And so, my brain already poisoned, I had this terrible thought: could our discussion group come up with an authoritative list of dippy tunes, in order of increasing dippiness? Is there one that's dippier than all others? If you'd like to participate in this hateful task, there are three ways: 1) Suggest dippy tunes. For example, you can say, "I can never get 'Louie, Louie' out of my head." 2) Suggest rankings. For example, if you think '99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall' is dippier than 'Achey Breakey Heart' you can say that. To save typing (and to make it easier for me when I do the eventual processing) you can word this as: 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall > Achey Breakey Heart You can suggest tunes and rank them at the same time (as I did above), or you can give a ranking for tunes that others have already suggested. You can rank several tunes at once, as: London Bridges > Mr. Ed > Teddy Bears' Picnic > We're Off to See the Wizard 3) You can claim that a previously-suggested tune isn't dippy. I feel this way about "Four Lane End," for example. It is DARN hard to get out of my head, but whatever "dippy" means, it doesn't seem to apply to that tune. Reply to the list or directly to me. Replying to the list will spark more discussion, but will also mess with more minds. If you write to me, I'll post an occasional summary. We will get conflicting opinions, and I haven't decided what to do about that yet. I just thought it would be fun to try this and see what develops. If it works, there will be two results, of great use to humanity: 1) When you get a tune stuck in your head, you can go to the list and find the least dippy tune that is still dippier. This will get the first tune out of your head while delaying as long as possible your eventual slide into insanity. 2) If you get the world's dippiest tune (once we decide what it is) in your head, you can relax, knowing it will never get any worse. To plunge us straight into the deep end, I'll lead by saying that I have yet to find a tune dippier than "It's a Small, Small World." Finally, so you don't all kill me, I've also found that a really lofty tune can drive out a dippy one. The tunes for "Wa' is Me" and "A New Beginning" will do it, for example. Have fun! -Bruce bruce_hamilton-AT- agilent.com Tel: 650-485-2818 Fax: 650-485-8092 Agilent Technologies MS 24M-A, 3500 Deer Creek Road, Palo Alto CA 94303 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:37:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000802183718.24805.qmail-AT- web1610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bruce, Have you been under greater than usual stress this week? > If it works, there will be two results, of great use to humanity: Not to mention material for a Dave Barry column! Barbara ===== Do you know about the Hunger Site? Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site. No purchases - all you do is click on the site. Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:04:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:04:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: "'ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Hamilton, Bruce wrote (in part): > The Good News: I've found a way to get a dippy tune out of my head. > The Bad News: The way is to hum a dippier tune. Louise Chapin, leader of the Boston CDSS for about fifty years, always claimed that the way to get a tune out of your head was to hum a stanza of the Star Spangled Banner. "It will kill anything," she said. > > Finally, so you don't all kill me, I've also found that a really lofty tune > can drive out a dippy one. The tunes for "Wa' is Me" and "A New Beginning" > will do it, for example. all the best ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:30:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:29:50 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001bffcb8$069f7a00$01981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk dance. They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and preserver of American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say that I have forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. The Lloyd Shaw Foundation might know exactly who this woman was. It happens, also, that the LSF has an annual "Rocky Mountain Dance Roundup," so that may be how the Rocky Mt. connection got in there. Bill Litchman is Archives Director. His email address is: litchman-AT- neon.unm.edu Good luck! Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of Stephen D. Corrsin Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 10:23 AM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: wild goose chase This one is really a stretch but I'd be glad for any leads. I've been reading a biography of Hans Schneider-Schwerte (C.Leggewie, "Von Schneider zu Schwerte"). He was, as Schneider, a German folk dance teacher *and* officer in the SS. He "disappeared" at the end of WW2, and Schwerte appeared -- and became a leading liberal German academic at Aachen University. In 1995, the beans got spilled and it was an enormous cause celebre in German academic politics. It became very complicated because he really did have a very constructive and productive postwar career as academic liberal, bridge-builder, conciliator, etc. Leggewie's book (p.305) refers to Schneider's attendance at a 1938 EFDSS summer session or meeting ("Tanztreffen"). Schwerte [sorry, the names get confusing] recalled to Leggewie in an interview, that in 1938, at this session or meeting he met "an American woman dance enthusiast, who worked for the Ford automobile firm in the Rocky Mountains." This woman allegedly tried to convince him to come to the States, perhaps even emigrate, though he declined. Any ideas who this might have been? A woman who worked for Ford -- I don't know if "Rocky Mountains" really is any indication, Europeans often have only the vaguest idea of North American geography, like the Englishman I met who assumed he could drive from NYC to Arizona in a few hours. Schneider-Schwerte was born in 1909, so let's assume that the woman would have been born ca.1905-18. thanks Steve Corrsin - ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:01:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:01:16 -0400 From: Maryn McKenna Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk dance. >They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and preserver of >American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say that I have >forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. didn't Ford arrange for dance(s) to be held/taught at Greenfield Village, his "outdoor museum" in Dearborn? i thought i'd heard at one point that there were, i dunno, mondo names in the folk revival who had been briefly linked to Greenfield. Greenfield supposdly has major archives (though they are building a big new research center this fall and so might be somewhat deraillee). maryn (who used to live 30 mins from Greenfield Village but is now stuck in the parched and gasping South [sulk]) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:01:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:22:50 -0700 From: Suzanne Frank Subject: Re: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <001501bffcb7$0db147c0$73c3b3d1-AT- rjiredff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Henry Ford taught square dancing in Dearborn,MI when my parents were in high school(early '40's) Square and contra dances were held at Lovett Hall on the Greenfield Village grounds in Dearborn. Contra Dances are still held on Sunday afternoons at Lovett Hall. Maybe someone in the dance community can help. Suzanne Frank(now in Sunnyvale,CA) ----- Original Message ----- From: Maryn McKenna To: Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: RE: wild goose chase > >Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk dance. > >They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and preserver of > >American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say that I have > >forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. > > didn't Ford arrange for dance(s) to be held/taught at Greenfield Village, > his "outdoor museum" in Dearborn? i thought i'd heard at one point that > there were, i dunno, mondo names in the folk revival who had been briefly > linked to Greenfield. > > Greenfield supposdly has major archives (though they are building a big new > research center this fall and so might be somewhat deraillee). > > maryn > (who used to live 30 mins from Greenfield Village but is now stuck in the > parched and gasping South [sulk]) > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:39:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:38:45 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Diagonal reels in ECD To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 2/8/2000 3:02:00 pm, system-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by >name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions >as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the >corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: >half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for >Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if >at >all, in ECD. There's always some clever dick who chimes in to disprove a point just made, and I find I'm he this time around! Pat Shaw used diagonal Heys (reels for four) in 'The Dancing Dutch', which he composed 27 years ago: he probably used the same figure in other dances as well, though none spring immediately to my increasingly scattered mind. Colin Hume used the figure recently in 'Gold for Brenda'. Corner interaction - well there are plenty of instances of this sort of thing in the later ECD's, when 'Triple Minor" had almost routed all other forms of dance, Think briefly of Fandango, Cambridge Waltz, and probably many others including Pat Shaw's version of The Russian Dance, instructions for which may be found in the booklet of the new CD by The Assembly Players, 'Pat Shaw's Playford' (shameless advertising plug! - private enquiries welcome, general ECD list ones embarrassing!). The reason these figures are not as conspicuous as they might be is that we tend to have converted to set dances a great many of them. There is, of course, the Somerset 'Bonny Breast Knot'. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:33:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: [Fwd from Will Quale] re: Wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSI40SBSBQ9QUSCF-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Quale To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: RE: wild goose chase On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Patricia Ruggiero wrote: > Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk > dance. They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and > preserver of American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say > that I have forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. i don't know the connection to lloyd shaw, but i do have a book produced by the fords, which my mother found for me at a book sale for 1$: Good Morning: Music, Calls, and Directions for Old-Time Dancing as Revived by Mr. and Mrs. Henry Ford. 61 Quadrilles, reels, singing squares, gavottes, minuets, and waltzes. Fourth edition, published in Dearborn, Michigan, 1943. 124pgs (the treasures mothers can find!) perhaps there's something in the book mentioning lloyd shaw, but right now i am at camp and the book is not. --will will-AT- quale.org www.quale.org www.quale.org/dance/dance.html "i've gone to sweep cobwebs beyond the sky, but i'll be back by and by." =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:01:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: [Fwd from Will Quale] re: Wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSI4RCOT0I9QUSQX-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Will Quale wrote: i don't know the connection to lloyd shaw, but i do have a book produced by the fords, which my mother found for me at a book sale for 1$: Good Morning: Music, Calls, and Directions for Old-Time Dancing as Revived by Mr. and Mrs. Henry Ford. 61 Quadrilles, reels, singing squares, gavottes, minuets, and waltzes. Fourth edition, published in Dearborn, Michigan, 1943. 124pgs (the treasures mothers can find!) perhaps there's something in the book mentioning lloyd shaw, but right now i am at camp and the book is not. But your dance book database _is_ available at camp. You frighten me, sir. I seem to have mislaid my copy of this book (which I got for $8 at the Medford Antique Mall in Medford, OR, and there is usually at least one copy for auction on eBay), but I have read it recently and don't recollect any mention of Lloyd Shaw. (I don't know if there are significant textual changes between editions of the book; I do know that the illustrations in my edition very clearly show people in 1920s clothing executing the figures. They're charming illustrations, by the way.) I had been under the impression that Henry himself didn't generally teach dancing, but that Mr. Lovett, his dancing master (after whom the hall is retrospectively named) did so. On the other hand, there's a description of Henry Ford in FORD: THE MEN AND THE MACHINES in ballroom position with one of his executives, teaching the man how to minuet. (Which I thought at the time was just an mistake on the biographer's part, but I see that GOOD MORNING contains a couple dance called the "Waltz-Minuet", which does have ballroom position stuff in it. Incidentally, it appears to me from a comparison of GOOD MORNING with older dance manuals that in the course of reviving dances, Mr. Lovett simplified and regularized them. I don't know if there's any bio material on Mr. Lovett that might answer this question. (I might have asked about this here before; don't recall.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:18:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:17:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Orly Krasner Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Diagonal reels in ECD To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Come to think of it, Marty Fager used a diagonal hey in his ECD "Maine Chance." --Orly krasner ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:05:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:05:33 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Wild goose chase To: English Dance Message-ID: <000101bffcf7$b0567140$27981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan, regarding your observation that Henry Ford doesn't mention Lloyd Shaw -- In his books, "Cowboy Dances" and "The Round Dance Book," Lloyd Shaw has some passing references to Henry Ford, one of which highly praises Ford's book, "Good Morning." Shaw also mentions getting permission from Ford to adapt one of his dances for one of these books. So, if the indexes to both books are thorough and there aren't any overlooked references to Henry Ford, then I guess neither book offers much in the way of explaining if the two men knew each other well, or at all. Shaw doesn't mention Lovett. The original query (remember that?) was about who might a certain woman have been. I figure it was some woman who worked for Ford and who attended an LSF "Rocky Mountain Roundup." How's that for a leap of faith? Seriously, it may be that in remembering Shaw's references to Ford I thought there was some genuine connection between the two. Maybe, as part of his wild goose chase, Steve will find out and let us all know. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:05:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:05:36 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Diagonal reels in ECD To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000301bffcf7$b2457000$27981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Nicholas, I was referring more to the variations on country corners that one sees in modern SCD: chain the corners in; turn corners and balance in line; corners pass and turn; corners chase to opposite sides; set to and turn corners; and promenade the corners are some that come immediately to mind. I'm aware that there are heys for 4 in Pat Shaw's dances (Miss de Jersey's for one). My point was more that SCD makes use of the diagonal reel of 4 as a setup (usually in the form of the 1/2 reel) for yet more complex corner interactions. The diagonal R&L is part of this repertoire. Reels of 4, particularly those on the diagonal, are among the basic building blocks of modern SCD, deriving (I think) from the 19th c. tradition. Although I do less ECD than SCD nowadays, and very little of that is modern ECD, my sense is that heys for 4, despite their occasional appearance, do not play the same role in ECD. Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of SallenNic-AT- aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 7:39 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Diagonal reels in ECD In a message dated 2/8/2000 3:02:00 pm, system-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by >name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions >as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the >corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: >half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for >Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if >at >all, in ECD. There's always some clever dick who chimes in to disprove a point just made, and I find I'm he this time around! Pat Shaw used diagonal Heys (reels for four) in 'The Dancing Dutch', which he composed 27 years ago: he probably used the same figure in other dances as well, though none spring immediately to my increasingly scattered mind. Colin Hume used the figure recently in 'Gold for Brenda'. Corner interaction - well there are plenty of instances of this sort of thing in the later ECD's, when 'Triple Minor" had almost routed all other forms of dance, Think briefly of Fandango, Cambridge Waltz, and probably many others including Pat Shaw's version of The Russian Dance, instructions for which may be found in the booklet of the new CD by The Assembly Players, 'Pat Shaw's Playford' (shameless advertising plug! - private enquiries welcome, general ECD list ones embarrassing!). The reason these figures are not as conspicuous as they might be is that we tend to have converted to set dances a great many of them. There is, of course, the Somerset 'Bonny Breast Knot'. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:47:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:32:26 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000803.011632.-515195.2.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've always found that a mixture of alcohol and aspirin will take care of the problem. Allison ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:48:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:43:47 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000803.011632.-515195.4.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've read the several responses to Steve's question, which generally took an interesting diversion (which perhaps deserves more discusseion) into the revered Mr. Henry Ford (my daughter, age 6, recently "helped" him demonstrate the outing of his first quadricycle at Dearborn, MI), but I think we may have gotten a wee bit off Steve's point, which was, was there any US-based female who liked to dance (age and state of residence unspecified) who might have in the ca. WWII era been in a position to advise any German male (of varying political persuasions) of anything whatsoever??? Allison Thompson http://www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:48:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:16:11 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: allison.thompson-AT- pncbank.com Message-ID: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT O my dears! ... poor Cecil has failed indeed, at least in America! I write this having just returned from the excellent & charming performance of my talented and charming (AND they clean their rooms & brush their teeth!) performance of my son (8) and daughter (6) at a lovely arts & music summer camp which I myself attended as a child in the dark ages & at which I taught recorder for 3 years as a college student in the somewhat less dark ages and ... ... well, most of us know that, ca. 1911 to 1924 or so, Cecil & his followers were determined that those of us in the world who spoke English (i.e., the English & the Americans--and we must remember we are talking pre-WWI cultural perceptions) should sing & dance the gay old English songs & dances & that every English-speaking child's curriculum should include lots & lots of "Blowing Away the Morning Dew" and "Sellenger's" and "The Spotted Cow" and "Goddesses" and that by the true appreciation of Same, all English persons (Cecil kind of forgot Americans at this point in his perorations, and don't even think about the India-Indians or anyone else from the former Empire) would join hands together in a Brotherhood of Englishness (a brotherhood that would not depend on outrageous concepts like an equal day's pay for an equal day's work (i.e., for women) or anything so controversial as that) and ... ...and when he first came to America in 1916, Cecil bumped heads with people like Elizabeth Burchenal, who thought that, since America was a melting pot of nationalities, American children should enjoy the songs & dances of various nations, rather than purely English ones which, of course, was not acceptable to Cecil, based on the premise of the above ... ... and then both of them (though now long defunct) have bumped up in the last 15 years (doubtless to their common, post-graduate (so-to-speak) horror) against the Rigors of Political Correctness so that now ... ... Now I Can Pronounce that in America, in the new millenium, our Common Culture is purely Broadwood/Hollywood. FOLK IS DEAD. Our dear little children sing songs from Annie & Sound of Music & Grease & the Lion King & this is all considered Safe by educators because it is non-ethnic & non-denominational. Not a single one of the innocent little darlings at the performance tonight sang anything approaching a "folk song," regardless of its nationality--and don't think this is an aberration! During the school year my children attend an expensive (!) private school with an excellent arts program that I wouldn't begin to criticize because of its many other strengths but I will assert to this List that sometimes I think in our efforts to teach our children Multi-Culturalism (an admired goal) we ignore a couple of those mainstream (and white and old-fashioned and not recently-emigrated and thus not vigorously protected) cultures such as the English, Scottish, Irish and possibly the French. (The Spanish are safe because they were so Wretchedly Oppressed in (some portions of them at least ) the New World, and so Mexican songs are pretty well represented on the curriculum.) No one sings "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" or "Sweet Molly Malone" or "Go Tell it on the Mountain" anymore; no one sings Stephen Foster songs anymore (he is a native of my home town and another whole complicated topic; yet, until I was an adult, children were still taught Camptown Races & Jeannie & Dixie & the others, which represented--at least up until then--a shared cultural past: how else are you going to understand it when Bugs Bunny sings dreamily," I dream of Jeannie, she's a light brown hare"?) Where are our Appalachian songs or Child Ballads (which have such a strong Great Britain connection) except for the very few that have been sanitized?! Jiminy crickets, no one even sings Blowin' in the Wind & Kumbaya & Hangman anymore! And let us not even speak of the so-called American folk-dances that survive in their most primitive form!!!--circle L, circle R, R star, hop, hop hop. Yuck! So, whereas in the olden days in my 4th grade, I learned (and begged for, to my shame--and I hardly spoke aloud for years afterwards due to the derision my gentle little comrades gave me for asking for it) songs like "Paddy on the Railroad" (which in addition to being a cool, modal tune, challenging the major key-Brittany Spears'-oriented ear, contains peculiar lyrics that could make a child wonder why Paddy is working & where he's from & what he's working on, etc., which gives the clever educator an opportunity to discuss emigration issues in the mid-1800s and so on), our children today are learning musically uninteresting--though, doubtless politically correct--and spiritually uninteresting songs like "Let Your Candle Shine, Shine, Shine." Now, don't tell me that your children attend a progressive, Quaker school where they are not permitted to sing or dance anything written/collected after 1920! While there may be a handful of such establishments out there, I feel certain that they are in the minority. What are we going to do? Whether you like everything he did or not, Sharp founded the EFDSS on a pedagogical premise that he would provide an orderly (if somewhat sanitized) version of English folk stuff so that countless teachers & Y-leaders and so on could put it on their curricula to give the children 1) healthful exercise and 2) meaningful artistic/spiritual fulfilment . For example, I betcha that everyone on this list Of A Certain Age had a folk dance/square dance unit in their middle school/high school years and you can thank Sharp & his followers & even his opponents (in America) for this blessing. But what are your kids doing NOW with regard to our American folk culture? And--posing this question particularly (though not uniquely to Americans)--what SHOULD your kids be learning in a public school environment? La Cucaracha? fine. An African dance? fine. But what is the correspondent representative English or American dance? Last winter. my son's second grade class had a wonderful unit on Ghana that incorporated African song, dance, art, economics, etc--truly multi-disciplinary. It was wonderfully impressive & fulfilling, and I'd never suggest dropping it, but where's the correspondent effort for American/English dance/songs? Colonial era-minuets? Yuck. BORING. Totally not rad. I think we are complacent and lazy! For anyone who has reached the bottom of this Rant, I apologize--because there are so many thoughts struggling for expression herein, that you will have a hard time picking which one you want to jump on first. I certainly want my children to learn folk songs & dances from many lands in preference to most of the Broadway-type songs & dances (especially those icky ones with the un-naturally pubescent, if I have the right word, gestures--you know, the ones that make you want to change the channel very fast when you see any eight-year-old perform them). I think the modern songs are suspect on many fronts (though they may be Politically Correct). I guess I'm challenging those of us on the List, perhaps, in two ways: first, are we ensuring in general that our children are getting an appropriate education in the Arts? (Big one!) And, for those who are educators of or volunteers with children and really have an immediate opportunity to effect immediate change, are we providing them with an appropriate & fully rounded education in the folk arts, not excluding those of (old ) England and America? (I'm not really looking for people to state what their specific curriculum is, dance-by-dance, but, rather, how they decided on a goal & convinced educators to support it.) I know that lots of us do volunteering, etc. with specific groups--and of course, that's wonderful. I think I'd like to push beyond that point, though. Should the ECD-ers unite behind the Polka as the American National Dance? The Square Dance? (One hardly dares asks what or perhaps which square dance?) I'm not sure that I'm really asking whether eight-year-olds should be taught the Young Widow versus King George's Minuet. Each of us has lots of opinions on that topic based on experience & personal teaching style, and the answer could vary based on circumstance. But for all of us reading this post who like to participate in ECD: what is the minimum our children should learn in the public schools? Or perhaps more to the point (since we'lll each take care of our own kids), what should our neighbor's children learn? I started thinking about this post at 6:15 tonight (in the middle of Somewhere Over the Rainbow and slightly before Supercalii...y'know). I apologize if it's a little rambling: I know I'm looking for a definitive answer to an indefinite question.....perhaps the current presidential campaign will help me sort it out ... yes, yes, that's it ... (OUCH! I had to hit myself upside the head.) I suspect that many on this list will find much in what I've written to agree with, but let's move quickly beyond that: what is the next step? When our kids do a unit on Colonial America, what dance(s) should they learn and what should they learn about how dance fit into social life? When they learn about the Civil War, what songs (from all sides) should they learn? Or the pre WWI-period or the Puritan period or whatever... I think that the Brits have done a lot more (I just bought such a book) on on this issue of standardizing/proseltyzing what kind of dance/song educators can incorporate into their curriculums--so where's the US response? Or, since the US is indeed such a melting pot of cultures & emigration patterns, etc., where is the reasoned, historicallly accurate, yet still accessible version of such educational materials? I think that many of our pedagogical materials (of which I've made quite a collection) are woefully out-of-date. Who will pick up the gauntlet to address this issue for the new millenium? Surely there is someone out there with the talent, the interest, the expertise & the ability to obtain grant moneys to tackle this issue! Yours, over the rainbow, Allison Thompson http://www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:55:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 00:54:16 -0400 From: "Linda M. Nelson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Attachments To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >If you feel you must attach a document, please use a TEXT file. Not all of >us can read someone else's application-specific file and to download 1516 >pages (Yes, that's what it was!) of jiberish is very frustrating and >totally useless. Hear, hear! I believe that the recent case was an accident. However, all attachments should be avoided when sending to this list! If tempted to attach some cool or useful thing, please just offer people the chance to ask for it off-list. I, for one, would greatly appreciate that approach. Cheers - Linda __________________________________________________ "Oh, yes. It's vital to remember who you really are. It's very important. It isn't a good idea to rely on other people or things to do it for you, you see. They always get it wrong." (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery") __________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:06:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:06:01 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <57.953a774.26ba57b9-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT OY! This is sick. You must have a death wish! On the other hand, how can one not rise to this challenge?! Here goes -- off the top of my head -- and in no particular order (frankly, I see/hear them all as equally annoying or dippy as the case may be).... In the annoying category: The Macarena The Barney Song (aka This Old Man) The Hokey Pokey How Much is that Doggy in the Window (must hear Peggy Lee singing) Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda (otherwise known as The Dance of the Hours from La Giocanda) (It's the tune that's annoying -- not the great Alan Sherman lyrics) Soldiers March from Faust (My father murdered a Kangaroo, Gave me the gristley parts to chew, Wasn't that a terrible thing to do, To give me to chew, the gristley parts of a Kangaroooooooo?) (Also goes in the dippy category) Memories, Music of the Night (or anything by ALW) Rain Drops Keep Falling on My Head (or anything by Burt Bachrach) MacArthur Park (perhaps in its own special category) In terms of dippy ECD: Indian Princess (Truly dippy, imho. Sorry) Antidote: anything you can think of by Bach, The Beatles or Stephen Sondheim; also select ECD tunes Actually there's a weekly public radio show out of Chicago devoted to bad and/or irritating music. I think it's called the Annoying Music Show or something like that. I've heard the guy who hosts it on NPR from time to time. Excruciating. Enough for now. Some of this stuff may actually stick. Quick turn on the radio! Late Breaking Addition to the Annoying Category: It was an...itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini that she wore for the first time today.... (as heard on NPR while writing this -- so much for turning on the radio). Suzanne // you had to ask! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:51:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:51:21 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/2/00 11:49:50 PM EST, allisonthompson-AT- juno.com writes: << What are we going to do? >> Weep! And not only are those "safe" Broadway/Disney tunes booorrrring -- they're bad, insipid, stupid music! (A new category.) Last summer, I saw a film/documentary about the Newport Folk Festival of 1963 or 64 (the one where Bob Dylan went electric). At one point Joan Baez and her sister sang "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" -- to a rapt crowd -- like it was an art song. It was kind of quaint. But I think those days are long gone, alas. Suzanne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:38:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:24:26 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000803102426.007f8750-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Don't apologize, Allison. I read to the end of your rant with pleasure at finding someone else thinking the way I do. In Europe, we may have couched the arguments in ifferent terms -- we are more likely to talk of rampant commerialism than of political correctness, for it's big money that is responsible for making the younger generation totally ignorant of traditional music and song. When radio and tv feed monotonous binary "music" into their heads 24 hours a day, there's no time left for anything else. Modern media have far more means to promote whatever will bring in the dollars or pounds, than we individuals will ever have. School teaching is a constant battle against the influence of popular (vulgar) tv, whatever your subject may be (kids wanting to shout, laugh, deride, applaud like overheated studio audiences), and it takes a lot of perseverence to put across an appreciation of music that, up to now, has stood the test of time, whether it be Cecil's or Mozart's. I have taught country & square dancing in primary schools in France, and they loved it, but what is an hour a week when compared with daily doses of radio, tv, or walkman stuff? I was always horrified that the other teachers systematically used noisy tasteless rock and pop for their activities, but apparently, they too, knoew of no other kind of music. My own children have enjoyed country and international folk dancing, but now they are young adults, they can find no-one their age intersted in such things -- and are even ashamed to admit that they have ever taken part in such old-fashioned pastimes. What can we do? I wish I knew. We can only go on enjoying the things we do with the tiny minority of people that are aware that there is a life outside of commercial pop culture. And *show* that we enjoy these traditions. In France , we have a new folk hero, José Bové, who has taken a strong stand against big business (imposing bland standardized products around the world) and in favour of the small farmer (regional traditional products with distinctive taste). Let us follow his example and take a strong stand against the rubbishy music being churned out in great quantities for the sole purpose of making quick money, only to be totally forgotten (along with the ephemeral "stars") once the profits dip. Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 07:03:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:03:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd from Tom Senior] Teaching drama teachers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Thomas Senior Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Tom Senior wrote: > > > Because of an article in the Tribune (CDS News July/August), i have been > >invited to present ECD to a class of high school theatre teachers involved > >with a summer course at Roosevelt University. I have a variety of things i > >intend to present, but wonder if any of you would like to suggest ideas > >about things a drama teacher would need to know about English Country > >Dancing? [snip] > > More controversial: My theory is that ECD served different social functions at > different times - that the 1600s USA dances allowed a small number of people to > show off in front of a large number, while the late-1700s longways duples > allowed more general participation, for example. Keith Whitlock's article "John Playford's _The English Dancing Master_ 1650/51 as Cultural Politics" in the Folk Music Journal, V. 7 no. 5 (1999) (published by EFDSS) has rather persuasive and intriguing arguments about the origins of Playford's material -- he says (p. 564) "Having argued the plausibility of Playford's first edition of dances being largely resourced in theatre and masque, and especially Jonsonian masques and the plays of Brome,..." -- I think that this article could provide a valuable perspective to teachers of drama who wish to incorporate ECD in their productions. (Thanks to Philippe Callens to bringing this article to the attention of readers of this list!) Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 08:05:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:00:00 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002801bffd5b$803d1040$4398adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Hi folks: If anyone has written a dippier tune than "The Name Game" I haven't heard it yet. Although "Oh! Nick-O-Deemo" comes close. So: The Name Game > Oh! Nick-O-Deemo Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 08:37:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:46:20 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <398993CB.DF6C9BEC-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Hear! Hear! Thank you Allison-certainly no need to apologize! Political corectness may be all well and good and it is nice to explore the tributaries but it shouldn't be at the expense of neglect of the main stream. The current ignorance of history (not just in dance or music) is deplorable. What a shame to watch a quiz progam on TV and find three competitors who knew every current TV and Pop Music star but didn't know how many rode into "the valley of death". Oh dear! By the way: I not only have some of Elizabeth Burchenal's books but was introduced to English Country Dance in her CDSS classes, I think even before I danced with Maryanne and Michael Herman. Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 08:44:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:38:27 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <00ba01bffd60$fa94b280$4398adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Dear Allison and the rest of the list: Allison, thank you for a wonderfully well-thought-out rant. I agree, pretty much -- America's children get nothing but pablum, and not even good pablum. And now, to tie it up with the other thread: What Allison is talking about is that Henry Ford lost his battle for the purity of American culture. His interest in folk dancing, and his concurrent support of fiddle contests around the country, came from his perception that American pop music (Tin Pan Alley products, at the time, plus jazz) had been corrupted by nefarious "foreign" influences. By which old Henry meant, mostly, Jews. Ford was a notorious anti-Semite, publishing endless diatribes on the subject in his owned-and-operated newspaper; he even republished that hoary old forgery, "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". (To his credit, he later apologized when its forged nature was proven definitively.) He also didn't approve of "Negro music", or jazz, feeling it was too wild and energizing, and of course he heartily disapproved of the Charleston and other wild dances. So he came to sponsor a mass revival of interest in a truly Amurrican dance form, the square dance. (Yes, I know he was dead wrong about its origins. He was wrong about other things too.) The pendulum has now, of course, shifted; multicultural has come, unfortunately, to mean that we play music relating to the kids that actually happen to be in our classroom. African music if we have African-American kids, Asian music (a tiny bit) if we have Asian-Americans, etc.. There are plenty of things wrong with this approach. One of them is that, for example, Polish-American kids never get to find out that they have a lively cultural history too; we only apply it to kids of color. Which is a pity, because listening to Karola Stoch fiddling next to an Indian fiddler next to a Yoruba drummer next to a flute from Turkestan next to a Sepik flute gives a real perspective into the breadth of musical possibilities -- and, sometimes, the interconnectedness and convergence of possibilities. The other problem is that it assumes African-American kids need to learn about their culture, but other kids don't need to learn about African-American culture. Hogwash -- the little white kids maybe need to learn it even more than the little black kids, who may get some at home, church, etc.. Vice versa too. And Anglo-American is an ethnic group like any other. So no one should get excluded; multi-cultural should mean *everyone*. So Henry lost, and we swung the other way. In this country, we don't seem to be able to find appropriate middle grounds, and that's a problem. Finally, a bit more about Ford. He had some surprising ties to Nazi Germany -- well, not so surprising considering his views on Jews. They liked him for his ideas about mass production and factory organization, and he seems to have visited often before the war. (American Jews boycotted Ford cars for many years; my family was a bit scandalized when I bought an Escort as late as 1983.) So the connection between a woman involved in folk dance who may have been connected with the Ford organization and Germany after WWII may not be so far-fetched. Oh, and one more thing. Ford was wrong about a remarkable number of things, but he was right about Tin Pan Alley. It *was*, to a great extent, dominated by Jews, as was the recording industry and indeed the entire entertainment industry at the time. This is an odd little corner of cultural history that bears looking at; I recommend a book called "Inventing America" (forget the author) about how a small group of Russian Jewish immigrants created the movie industry of the 20s-40s, and in so doing they also created a great deal of America's self image. Not to mention our modern sense of humor, as until the 1960s virtually all of our great comedians were Jewish, and came out of the Borscht Belt and vaudeville. Fascinating stuff. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:16:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:16:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000803161601.5210.qmail-AT- web1603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As it happens, show tunes are every bit as genuine an expression of American culture as folk music, and some damn fine music and song-writing as well! I don't know any really good musician who doesn't appreciate the contribution that show music has made to American musical culture. Furthermore, can we please stop hysterically attributing every disagreement over taste or behavior to this creeping, infectious evil known as "political correctness" that has become as big a bugaboo in American consciousness in the past decade as the "red menace" was in the 50s. Anything at all that someone disagrees with is a symptom of "political correctness." The real problem is this idea that there are no such things as legitimate differences in taste, and that anyone who exhibits a different preference must therefore be acting as the agent of an Evil Empire. The simple fact is that people like different things, and may even think different things are appropriate to teach children without being a puppet of some dark force. Viva Cole Porter! Barbara Ruth ===== Do you know about the Hunger Site? Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site. No purchases - all you do is click on the site. Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:34:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:34:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: crie de coeur To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Mr Sheffield, in a riff off Ms Thompson's crie de coeur, writes: "In France , we have a new folk hero, José Bové, who has taken a strong stand against big business (imposing bland standardized products around the world) and in favour of the small farmer (regional traditional products with distinctive taste). Let us follow his example and take a strong stand against the rubbishy music being churned out in great quantities for the sole purpose of making quick money, only to be totally forgotten (along with the ephemeral "stars") once the profits dip." *** Isn't this rather beside the point? Allison's point was what is taught in schools, not how the French are going to save the world from McDonald's. And excuse me, they are different things entirely: the 'good old songs' have disappeared from American curricula not because Evil Big Business (Ronald McDonald, wearing a top hat, smoking a cigar one supposes and leering at his secretary) dictates, but because too many of the 'good old songs' were perceived as being racist sexist ethnocentric etc etc. That at least seemed to much of Allison's main point: not really Britney Spears (though said BS did come up) but she (AT, not BS) starts with what her kids are, and are not being taught in school. Steve Corrsin corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel (248) 661-6283 fax (248) 661-6288 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:49:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:49:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Schneider and the woman To: ecd-digest-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks: especially Pat Ruggiero seems to have provided a solid lead. I had no idea of the "Rocky Mountain" connection and I betcha she is right. Since I live and work approx 30 min drive from Dearborn MI, I will check out whatever archives may be available... Also will contact Lloyd Shaw foundation and see who, if anyone, went to England in the summer of 1938 when Hauptsturmfuhrer Schneider was tripping around. Sad to say, even if I find all this it won't be more than a footnote. But it's a hoot nonetheless. I guess my question set off a flurry of thoughts about Henry Ford but that was not my intent. Steve Corrsin corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel (248) 661-6283 fax (248) 661-6288 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:57:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:51:59 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <003801bffd73$87d65420$2bffdcd1-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803161601.5210.qmail-AT- web1603.mail.yahoo.com> <> Quite true. And hysteria's always a bad idea. Nonetheless, I think Political Correctness as a social force does exist, and it's a mind-numbing as any other unthought-out notion. Most of the critiques have come from the right wing, either cultural or political, and so many of us have waved them off. I come from the left wing, and I say Political Correctness, ** as practiced these days in America ** is the codification of stupidity. What do I mean? I mean that it makes sense to, for example, avoid singing songs like "Nigger Likes his Possum" in schools, to take an obvious extreme example (yes, that's a genuine pop song title from the early 20th century). No reason to perpetrate rotten, demeaning and hateful stereotypes. Or to hurt people gratuitously. What doesn't make sense is to adopt a knee-jerk response. For example: Our local public library "de-acquisitioned" most of its vinyl about 10 years ago, including an extensive collection of folk music. The head of Tech Services decreed that they would dump everything, but would make an exception for African-American music, because that was important. Well, it *is* important, and so is Polish-American, and Italian-American, and Haitian, and Korean, and... Pfui. (It was, incidentally, a white person making this move.) I suppose I shouldn't complain, since our community radio station got all the stuff they dumped, and my radio program has prospered on account of it, but it's still dumb. And it leaves the kids of our fair city with a one-dimensional view of tradition. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:31:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:31:49 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: cri de coeur To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000803203149.007f7ec0-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I wrote about the alol-pervading modern commercial music that has shouldered older more traditional forms oput of modern youths consciousness. Steve asked: >Isn't this rather beside the point? sorry, steve, I can't agree that the older songs have disappeared solely because of political correct dogma. In Europe, we are not yet ashamed of singing racist and sexist songs (we, the over 50s). We are only just beginning to fall over backwards trying to be "correct" with our minorities etc. North African music is now appearing on the radio in France, at last, but this is not the reason that youngsters are unaware of traditional European music. You may not agree with me that (some) big business is evil (profits today, let the devil take tomorrrow), but, if there were not so much easy money to be made out of mediocre recordings of third-rate bands, if big business had not the means to promote whatever it wants to sell us, there would not be so much mechanical (or rather, digital) music on radio and tv, and our young school teachers would perhaps have some knowledge of real music to pass on to their younger pupils. (nor would there be so much tasteless food of doubtful nutritional value in the shops -- but let's leave that aside). I can't help feeling that policial correctness in the US was all a plot to get rid of the old in order to make way for the more profitable new (no royalties on folk songs -- big bucks from pop). Yes, it was a "cri du coeur" -- from someone who is very sad at seeing everything traditional being depicted as old-fashioned, out-dated, and not worth a second glance. Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:57:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:56:32 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Very delicate subject, this. Sure is interesting to see how people are sounding in on it. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:24:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:23:54 -0700 (PDT) From: MEIER-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01JSJ6F1OZ5U9QV8Z1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Oh, this is a cruel topic to see first thing in the morning. Bruce, what are you *really* going to do with this knowledge when you've compiled it? I mean, service to humanity or diabolical death trap? Maybe you could just send this information off to the Rise Up Singing editors so they can create a special Dippy section in their next edition. The worst part about Dippy Tunes is not remembering the whole song. Any song becomes "dippy" when you can only hear half a verse repeating endlessly. It's a Small, Small World The Banana Splits theme song (La la laaa, la-la la laaa/La la laaa, la-la la laaa/One banana, two banana, three banana four...) > It's a Small, Small World Fandango (less so if you think of it as tump-te-tum instead of la-la-la, but not much; I didn't realize this was a Dippy Tune until I started going through my mental ECD list, and had to resort to It's a Small, Small World to remove it) Chantilly Lace Happy Days are Here Again Flintstones, meet the Flintstones... If You Want to Sing Out, Sing Out by Cat Stevens (this song can cause violence; the struggle that resulted from some recent renditions of this song caused one person in the car to lose an earring) Jam Up and Jelly Tight I Know a Song That Gets on Everybody's Nerves Late-breaking scientific bulletin: Studies Have Shown that I Know a Song That Gets on Everybody's Nerves = Banana Splits Theme Song! (These in fact sound almost good when sung together, and we only need one more for the Quodlibet from Hell.) While I agree that the following must all be Dippy Tunes, London Bridges > Mr. Ed > Teddy Bears' Picnic > We're Off to See the Wizard have been on my Dippy Tune list for so long that their Dippiness burnt away for me. I concur with the ranking given, though. There's another cure for dippy, and that's well-done intentional humor. I contend that Swing Low Sweet Chariot or the Yogi Bear Song, from the Pete Campbell collection, will erase even It's a Small, Small World for anyone who's seen them. Off to clear my head with some Stan Freberg or Weird Al Yankovic, Vanessa Schnatmeier ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:35:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:30:04 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Fw: More Fw: Poor Cecil! To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <001101bffd81$3b2bd4c0$ce98adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks: I forwarded chunks of our discussion to my friend Steve Pick, old comrade in radio, occasional rock critic for local papers, and good thinker. He wrote back: <> Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:38:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:35:14 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: >The Good News: I've found a way to get a dippy tune out of my head. >The Bad News: The way is to hum a dippier tune. > >And so, my brain already poisoned, I had this terrible thought: could our >discussion group come up with an authoritative list of dippy tunes, in order >of increasing dippiness? Is there one that's dippier than all others? Bruce, although I already forwarded my nominees and suspicions about your moral character to you directly, I had a thought about this that I wanted to pass along. Aren't you really talking about the whole premise of "maggots" here? Mary Beth <-- sprinting away as fast as possible while whistling a happy tune ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:56:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 2:25:11 PM EST, MEIER-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: << the Quodlibet from Hell.) >> I really like that! << Stan Freberg >> Yessss! (Too many moons we live here White Cloud. Time to unload this crummy island.) Also, Tom Lehrer Suzanne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:11:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:05:45 -0400 From: Sheila Beardslee Bosworth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ><< Stan Freberg >> > >Yessss! (Too many moons we live here White Cloud. Time to unload this >crummy island.) Ah, but you out of luck today -- banks closed. Why? Today Columbus Day... Do we go out on that joke? No, we do reprise of song but it doesn't help much. And let's not forget the tap-dancing moccasins at Thanksgiving... Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilabb-AT- earthlink.net Editor, Boston Early Music News Deadline Aug 20 for Sept 15 issue: events Sept 15-Dec. 31 WEB Calendar www.medieval.org/emfaq/concerts/bemn/ Pavane website www.earlymusicboston.com/pavane 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 VOX 978/263.9926 FAX 978/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:17:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:16:39 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'd rather talk about dippy dances. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:29:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:29:16 -0400 From: Maryn McKenna Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >I'd rather talk about dippy dances. > > Parson's Farewell > any other dance you can name. maryn atlanta etc. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:30:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <96.7f234d5.26bb3071-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 3:12:06 PM EST, sheilabb-AT- earthlink.net writes: << And let's not forget the tap-dancing moccasins at Thanksgiving... >> Or Ben Franklin who doesn't want to sign Tom Jefferson's "subversive" petition, forget all about it, and get hauled up before a committee. "I don't want to spend the rest of my days writing in Europe." TJ: What makes you so surly? BF: Surly to bed, and surly to rise." Da dat, da dahhhh. What was that? French horns. To say nothing of his classic commercials -- Tetley Tea, Pittsburgh Paint, Contadina Tomato Paste (8 great tomatoes in that itty-bitty can) and the best of all... the one for Radio: Announcer: We're going to drain Lake Erie, fill it hot chocolate, cover it with a mountain of whipped cream, and have the Royal Canadian Air Force drop a maraschino cherry on top. An orgy of sound effects. Announcer: I'd like to see you try that on television. Suzanne // OK I'll stop now. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:59:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:59:45 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Now, now. Civilization is not crumbling; it's really "the more it changes, the more it remains the same." When I was young my Dad used to rant about how worthless current popular music was and how much better it was in the '40's. Now my friends wax nostalgic about early Beatles until I'm sure their kids are ready to gag. Was pop music ever anything but insipid? The lyrics to popular renaissance music seem to mostly translate to, "Oh, lady, if you won't love me I'm gonna die." They just used endless "Fa la la" refrains instead of "hey, hey, hey." When I was in grade school, we learned a lot of '60's folk songs like "If I Had a Hammer". I assumed that these really were folk songs that everyone had always sung. It wasn't until much later that I found out how much of that "folk music" was recently created. The people who promoted the "folk music revival" had an agenda. Cecil Sharpe had an agenda. If you look closely, most folk materials have been discovered, promoted (or invented) by people with an agenda as much socio-politcal as artistic. "Political correctness" is just the latest agenda. Nevertheless, it is worth asking what "traditions" should be passed on. Given that each generation picks and chooses out of its history those elements that it thinks will enhance its values, we are right to ask what positive cultural, artistic, etc. values the music and dance we love can promote. A sense of history? A shared creation rather than everyone acting alone? An appreciation of balance and symetry? There's nothing politically incorrect about that. --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:45:50 -0700 From: Laurie Andres Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <398A123C.B31861FB-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <3.0.5.32.20000803102426.007f8750-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> I heartily agree with Martin Sheffield's comments below about "rampant commercialism", but I do not agree that it is the same as "political correctness". "PC" is a term invented by the conservative right wing in the good old US of A. It is a red herring to distract attention from the real problems of society and education such as: inadequate funding, conservative school boards approving mealy mouthed textbooks, and more attention given to indoctrination of children in capitalism and to become complacent workers then to educating and cultivating their minds and talents. Of course it goes beyond education. As Martin pointed out, We are fighting against commercial media (read BIG money) in the culture battle. Please don't blame the small attempts at multiculturalism for poor education. If we are going to get along, understand other people and preserve folk arts and cultural history. We need more multiculturalism. M Sheffield wrote: > > Don't apologize, Allison. > I read to the end of your rant with pleasure at finding someone else > thinking the way I do. > In Europe, we may have couched the arguments in ifferent terms -- we are > more likely to talk of rampant commerialism than of political correctness, > for it's big money that is responsible for making the younger generation > totally ignorant of traditional music and song. > When radio and tv feed monotonous binary "music" into their heads 24 hours > a day, there's no time left for anything else. Modern media have far more > means to promote whatever will bring in the dollars or pounds, than we > individuals will ever have. School teaching is a constant battle against > the influence of popular (vulgar) tv, whatever your subject may be (kids > wanting to shout, laugh, deride, applaud like overheated studio audiences), > and it takes a lot of perseverence to put across an appreciation of music > that, up to now, has stood the test of time, whether it be Cecil's or > Mozart's. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:39:37 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008040039.TAA22890-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Vanessa Schnatmeier wrote: >Off to clear my head with some Stan Freberg or Weird Al Yankovic, Stan Freberg's cartoon version of "The Banana Boat Song," which works nicely as a sound track without cartoon, should be incredibly good displacement material. And for those in another thread, bemoaning the politically correct state of music in schools, Freberg's comic conversion of "Ol' Man River" into "Elderly Man River" (first done on his radio show in the early 60's, I think) should provide some distraction. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804005546.16786.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: > OY! This is sick. You must have a death wish! On the other > hand, how can one not rise to this challenge?! > > The Macarena > Just as bad as that is the Chicken Dance. Several of us from the Monday night Scandinavian group went to the Bi-annual Finnish Festival in Naselle, Washington several years ago. It is a tiny town of primarily Finnish ancestry about twelve miles north of the Columbia River bridge at Astoria. These people know very little of their folk heritage. A young couple from Finland had been performing music all day and they would only play for dancing for a half hour that evening. Several people scrounged through their cars for tapes and we danced Scandinavian folk dances, but the only dance we had music for that the local townspeople knew was the Chicken Dance. They did it *seven* times that night. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:04:24 -0700 From: Laurie Andres Subject: Re: crie de coeur To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <398A1695.911AFAF5-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Steve - I contend the publishers are withdrawing public domain material from textbooks, because they can make more money on the copyrighted slop being churned out. Laurie Andres "Stephen D. Corrsin" wrote: > > Isn't this rather beside the point? Allison's point was what is taught in > schools, not how the French are going to save the world from McDonald's. And > excuse me, they are different things entirely: the 'good old songs' have > disappeared from American curricula not because Evil Big Business (Ronald > McDonald, wearing a top hat, smoking a cigar one supposes and leering at his > secretary) dictates, but because too many of the 'good old songs' were > perceived as being racist sexist ethnocentric etc etc. That at least seemed > to much of Allison's main point: not really Britney Spears (though said BS > did come up) but she (AT, not BS) starts with what her kids are, and are not > being taught in school. > > Steve Corrsin > corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com > 5166 Patrick Rd. > West Bloomfield MI 48322 > tel (248) 661-6283 > fax (248) 661-6288 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:33:25 -0400 From: Meredith Birmingham Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000803183132.00ad0930-AT- neo.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As a teenager, I know it may seem that most of us listen to nothing but pop, rap, heavy metal, and other versions of "Modern American" music. For some, that is very true. Some acquaintances of mine scorn anything that predates 1990! But, there is hope! In my music appreciation class last year, I suggested that my class have a small ECD session, and most people were enthusiastic. Whether this had to do with dancing, or just getting out of classwork I don't know, but the whole activity went off very well! Just by convincing my teacher that it would reinforce concepts of rhythm, consonance, dissonance, etc., the idea was accepted. As it turned out, kids from many backgrounds and heritages enjoyed the activity, and I doubt whether any of us gave a thought as to whether we were being politically correct! As long as people enjoy what they do, most probably do not care whether their hobbies lean in the direction of one heritage or another. Still, political correctness is present, and definitely not blameless. I sometimes think that I know more about African-Americans' history than my own. When do we learn intensively about German-American heritage, for example? As a junior in high school, I still have not had a good look at that part of my history. My two cents. Meredith Birmingham mbirming-AT- neo.rr.com http://members.xoom.com/mbirmingham/bronte.htm "Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life." -Auerbach ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:07:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:30:24 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008040130.UAA12756-AT- kang.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. (By the way, not wishing to be picky but unable to stop myself, generally speaking, tune + lyric = song.) There are a lot of wonderfully dippy 6/8 tunes from northeast North America. The French Canadien folks dance to 3 part 6/8 quadrilles that are fountains of sweetness and light. Unfortunately, many of them seem to go by such memorable names as "gigue en C" and "quadrille en G." An accessible tune of the sort is "Spider Island Jig" played by Jerry Robichaud on "Maritime Dance Party." His upright style makes it sound even dippier than it otherwise might. Don't get me wrong... I love these tunes, but they are dippy enough to drive out most other stuff -- and without benefit of annoying lyric content. My personal favorite method of displacing nagging music is unorthodox... I re-imagine the tune in a different time signature. Converting a jig to a reel or a reel to a waltz is not only entertaining, but often reminds me of yet another tune; then I'm completely rid of the offender. Particularly nagging music will usually succumb to conversion to 5/4, 7/4, or the 2-2-2-3 version of 9/8. I try not to sprain anything while doing this. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:08:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:08:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 10:08:20 PM EST, diggle-AT- bigfoot.com writes: << SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. (By the way, not wishing to be picky but unable to stop myself, generally speaking, tune + lyric = song.) >> Ummmm. I've said quite a few things on this topic, but not these particular words. They should be attributed correctly, but I'm not sure to whom they belong. In fact, one of the things that I find truly annoying is when a dance tune pops into my head, and I can't think of it's name. Suzanne // not offended just making things perfectly clear ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:50:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:50:06 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3b.824dd09.26bba57e-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 11:17:02 AM EST, barbararuth-AT- rocketmail.com writes: << Viva Cole Porter! >> I'm definitely with you there. But the Broadway "greats" of the past -- Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Kern, Rogers & Hammerstein and Sondheim (to name a few) -- created brilliant, sophisticated, witty shows (with the possible exception of The Sound of Music -- that entire show could go on the Annoying/Dippy Music list, imho). Now adays what do we have? The insipid, banal, witless stuff coming created by Disney, Andrew Lloyd Weber (considered by some to be the anti-Christ) and the other mega hits of recent years (eg Les Miz, Miss Saigon, Phantom, Cats, and the truly dreadful Sunset Blvd. -- when the best thing is the scenery, something is definitely wrong). It's true that some songs from the past have problematic sentiments or references that just wont do these days. That's really more than PC -- it's a reflection of how society has changed. But there are plenty of songs that still OK. Many of us -- children of the 60s -- came age with songs that reflected our political and social concerns. Songs had real meaning for us. Those songs are not likely to speak to the younger generation. Music has different meaning and uses these days -- it seems more superficial -- but who knows. But it does seem sad, that many (not to say all) of our "folk" songs -- so rich with meaning and history and just great tunes -- are apparently no longer a part of our culture. It can't all be rock 'n roll. Suzanne // kumbayah ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:57:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:57:33 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008040557.AAA13551-AT- serak.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 8/3/00 10:08:20 PM EST, diggle-AT- bigfoot.com writes: > ><< SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com *never* wrote: <------------------ Ooops > Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel > deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most > of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. > (By the way, not wishing to be picky but unable to stop myself, > generally speaking, tune + lyric = song.) >> > > >Ummmm. I've said quite a few things on this topic, but not these particular >words. They should be attributed correctly, but I'm not sure to whom they >belong. > >In fact, one of the things that I find truly annoying is when a dance tune >pops into my head, and I can't think of it's name. > >Suzanne // not offended just making things perfectly clear Ooops, my apologies... I thought I had erased that attribution line. I'm afraid that I said all that stuff myself. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:22:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:22:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804072230.5332.qmail-AT- web3301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Meredith Birmingham wrote: > <> > > Still, political correctness is present, and definitely not > blameless. I sometimes think that I know more about > African-Americans' history than my own. When do we learn > intensively about German-American heritage, for example? As a > junior in high school, I still have not had a good look at > that part of my history. > I remember years ago, long before it became known as political correctness, when African-American related topics began to be introduced into the inner city schools which were primarily Black. I heard a story of students in a small school district in Minnesota demanding that classes be taught that studied their Scandinavian heritage. There were few, if any, Blacks in their system and the cultural heritage of the majority of students had *never* been taught. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:37:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:31:46 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002601bffde6$0c7bab40$2f96adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: ><< Stan Freberg >> "Day-o! Day-o!" (Footsteps. Doorknob rattles. Pounding on door. More footsteps. Crash and tinkle of glass:) "I come through the window." "Daylight come and me wan' go home." Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:39:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:39:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804073941.3746.qmail-AT- web3306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Roger Diggle wrote: > SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: > Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel > deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most > of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. > For years I have worked with people who *must* have the radio on all the time. I'm not at all thrilled by the music, since what I listen to, when it's my own choice, is the music that I dance to, which is not remotely mainstream. What I really object to most is the constant babble that goes on *between* songs. From the moment one song fades until the next one begins, there is constant noise. The volume usually is not loud enough to really hear the music and the constant underlying noise is *very* annoying and distracting. I usually have some tune running through my head and would much rather live with that than the noise coming from the direction of the radio. I was talking about this constant annoyance with Lyrl one time and she suggested that people have the radio on in order to drown out the thoughts that are churning through their heads. They don't like to think about their troubles so they drown out all thought of them. I'd much rather think an ECD or Scandinavian tune than the evil thoughts that so annoy others. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:06:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSJYYLXT6A9BVEQW-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Suzanne wrote: >In a message dated 8/3/00 11:17:02 AM EST, barbararuth-AT- rocketmail.com writes: ><< Viva Cole Porter! >> >I'm definitely with you there. But the Broadway "greats" of the past -- >Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Kern, Rogers & Hammerstein and Sondheim (to name a >few) -- created brilliant, sophisticated, witty shows (with the possible >exception of The Sound of Music -- that entire show could go on the >Annoying/Dippy Music list, imho). Now adays what do we have? The insipid, >banal, witless stuff coming created by Disney, Andrew Lloyd Weber (considered >by some to be the anti-Christ) and the other mega hits of recent years (eg >Les Miz, Miss Saigon, Phantom, Cats, and the truly dreadful Sunset Blvd. -- >when the best thing is the scenery, something is definitely wrong). While I yield to no one in complaining about all of Sir Andrew's work since _Dreamcoat_, I feel compelled to point out that that isn't _all_ we have. I think Ashman & Menken were a brilliant team - listen to the _Little Shop of Horrors_ original cast album - and also did some very respectable work for Disney. _The Scarlet Pimpernel_ has some pretty good songs in it, although I disremember who wrote them. While I'm disremembering the composers of current musicals, _Side Show_ is a fabulous musical drama and _Everything's Ducky_ quite an amusing show with good songs in a variety of styles. (I also feel compelled to point out that Sondheim was still working, last I heard.) While I'm at it, I have to recommend the South Park movie as the best musical film of the decade. The Bolton/Wodehouse/Kern musicals were hailed for actually having stories, vapid and trivial though they seem now. The Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, starting with Oklahoma, were hailed for having _serious_ stories. I contend that the more serious you are about the stories, the less room there is for sparkling songs that work well outside of the context of the show, songs that become standards like so many of the Porter, Gershwin, and Berlin numbers. Which is partly why songs from current musicals don't usually get covered by poop stars and get lots of radio play, like they did in the 40s - they don't work as well outside the show. Anyway, by the time you get to a show so serious about the story as Les Miz, it's not surprising that you don't have anything to whistle on the way home. But this whole argument - which I, through lack of personal discipline, couldn't resist - is spectacularly beside the point, or at least besides Allison's point. It's not just that the songs at school and camp are songs that suck; it's that they are commercial, owned, songs, and that they're supplanting the folk songs that might have been assumed to be part of our cultural inheritance. That brings up a whole bunch of complicated questions. As someone has already pointed out, most of our ECD music was written, published, sold at some point in its history. Our whole ECD revival is an artificial construct. Folk music (and dance) and commercial music (and dance) have long had an interaction. Morris dances have been collected that turned out to be set to music hall or minstel show songs. Philippe Callens said at Mendocino that he'd traced the melody of "Double Lead Through" to an operetta performed in the 1870s. And so on. But the reason those two cultures (folk and professional) could interact was that both were alive and well. What are parents singing to their children now? What stories are they telling them? Or are the kids watching a lot of videos? If you'd seen _The Lion King_ a hundred and fifty times, you'd have all the songs memorized as well, and you'd understand them, too. And they'd be the equivalent of whatever you learned at your mother's knee - it would make you happy to sing them. Is this evil? Maybe. Can we fix it by teaching them "Old Dan Tucker" in school? I doubt it (especially considering that one of our big problems in the Bay Area in running a traditional square dance series is that people did square dancing in grade school and hated it). I think the best we can do is keep it alive, keep it going and enjoyable, and make sure that when those young people with whom it resonates come around, it's still there for them to find. I do think it's worth doing traditional music and dance in the schools if it's done well, so that the kids enjoy it. It's easy to turn them off. If we can get specialists who are good at it in, rather than simply add it to the workload of the existing teachers, it may well be worthwhile. It may be better to work up family dances in association with PTAs, church groups, etc. Up too late, I remain -- Alan PS: I happened to be at "Paramount's Great America" last Friday. This is an amusement park - lots of roller coasters - where the Muzak equivalent is usually movie themes. Over in the Nickelodeon area, next to the slime machine, the speakers were playing someone singing "Old Dan Tucker" accompanied by guitar. I was surprised enough to be just standin' there, lookin. -- APW =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 07:17:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:17:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Roger Diggle wrote: [snip] > There are a lot of wonderfully dippy 6/8 tunes from northeast > North America. The French Canadien folks dance to 3 part 6/8 > quadrilles that are fountains of sweetness and light. What makes a tune dippy? Clearly, there's an unusual combination of good and bad elements which contribute to this particular quality. As tunes, perhaps, they're highly successful, in a sense, in that you go away humming them; too successful, perhaps, when you _can't_ stop humming them before you're totally bored with them. Lyrics which you associate with the tune clearly play an important role in establishing a tune's dippiness, I think. Having alternate & possibly satirical versions offers some remedy, it seems, from what folks have said. The emotional level of the lyrics, in my opinion, has much to do with our attribution of dippiness to a tune. Context, too, is probably important -- if a song reminds you of a particular time that you heard it, your reaction will very likely be influenced by whether that occasion was one which you like to remember or not. So if you had family gatherings which would rise/degenerate to songfests in your past, the songs they sung might bring back warm, nostalgic memories or remind you of horrors from which you fled. Dylan Thomas, in "A Child's Christmas in Wales" (or something like that) describes such a scene, and G. B. Shaw once described in a music review of Beethoven's "Eroica" symphony how he was unable to write a critical review because one movement always reminded him of the carriage journeys with family members at funerals of one of their clan, going from the church in Dublin to the cemetery in the countryside, and this so completely swept away other thoughts that he didn't really hear the music. Familiarity, too, seems to be a big element. Some folks have suggested, as examples of non-dippy music, anything by the likes of J. S. Bach & others; but I suspect that many piano students would put a number of the tunes from the "Notenbuechlein fuer Anna Magdalena Bach" on their dippy tunes list. Some pretty good music used out of context, e.g. as theme songs for radio & tv program, or in weddings, becomes associated with those things primarily and the original context forgotten, if it was known in the first place -- I'm sure I don't have to mention some of the more obvious examples for you to come up with some -- but I do remember my surprise when I found myself playing the "Masterpiece Theater" theme song out of a Marshall Barron duet book! What are other factors which you find make a tune dippy? Does the fact that you can't get it out of your head alone qualify it? Or does it have to be that you can't get rid of it even when you want to? I've had a couple of tunes running through my head ever since Early Music week at Pinewoods a couple of weeks ago, even with a week's vacation following that, and they're great tunes and I love having them there! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 07:34:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:34:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Ford, Schneider-Schwerte, and what I actually said To: ecd-digest-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Someone said, apparently in part in response to my questions about Schneider-Schwerte: "So the connection between a woman involved in folk dance who may have been connected with the Ford organization and Germany after WWII may not be so far-fetched." Please note that this is not the story I told, and asked about: first, it was 1938, not after WW2. Also, I have no reason to think the American woman was "connected with... Germany." She was, per the German officer/ professor Schneider-Schwerte, at a dance program? meeting? ("Tanztreffen") in England -- a good guess would be an EFDSS summer program -- I already know from another source that Schneider-Schwerte travelled to England in 1938. The "connection" he cites (according to Leggewie on p.305 of his book) was a personal one. Nothing was said or alleged to suggest that Henry Ford was involved, aware, alerted, etc., about this unknown woman's contacts with Schneider-Schwerte, nor for that matter that Lloyd Shaw was involved, aware, alerted, etc. Now I suppose an ECD "urban legend" will develop that I've learned, in my dance history researches, that Henry Ford used his folk dance interests to pass messages to the German high command. (And further, I suppose, that any evidence has been destroyed because of an evil McDonald's international conspiracy, secretly directed by Britney Spears, who in reality is not a bellybutton displaying teenybopper but a wicked middle aged corporate giant, with cigar, top hat, etc. etc.) Speaking as an historian... Is it any wonder we are taught in grad school to be skeptical about evidence? Oh well. Steve Corrsin corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel (248) 661-6283 fax (248) 661-6288 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:15:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:15:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Wartell Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200008041515.LAA05777-AT- info.cas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric makes a good point - the dippiness of a tune (or dance) is highly subjective. And it ties into the thread on "poor Cecil" Personally I would classify ALL of Sephen Foster's songs as dippy, along with a lot of the other Victorian era (?) drivel that was in my elementary school songbooks. (I particularly loathe "My Grandfather's Clock".) This obviously puts me in direct conflict with the person who lamented the loss of Foster's materials from the current curriculum. There were also songs that I loved, including ones that were contemporaries with some that I hated. My favorites, however, were not the same as other kids'. In contrast to another poster, I do not consider Parson's Farewell a dippy dance; it is one of my favorites. That one is probably context-dependent, as it was the first moderately complex English dance I learned, I learned it in a set where the other 3 dancers already knew it, and I had a great deal of fun dancing it. Some of the dippiest music to me comes from commercial jingles - "you'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with Pepsodent," "see the USA in your Chevrolet". Part of what makes these annoying is that they are just snatches that repeat over and over again. I think over-exposrure can turn an innocuous tune into one I consider dippy. This suggests that novelty songs (e.g., ... yellow polka dot bikini...) have a high potential for ending up on this list. Probably the _most_ annoying type of tune is one I can't finish - I can't recall all of it, or it doesn't have a full cycle. I find if I can go all the way through one of the dippy songs in my mind, it will generally leave (though it may pop up again over the next few hours or days.) So, my votes for dippies tunes: commercial jingles (mostly from the 60's) > My Grandfather's Clock > Sonny > They're Coming to Take Me Away > Old Folks at Home > Swannee River > Camptown Races > How Much is that Doggie in the Window > anything by Tony Orlando and Dawn (e.g., Knock Three Times) > on the other hand, while "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" is really stupid and monotonous, I don't consider it as dippy as any of the above. Probably because I sang it on school trips, where the treat of going away from the classroom and out into the wider world put a sort of rosy glow on everything. YMMV - and probably will Sue Columbus OH ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:15:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:15:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Wartell Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200008041515.LAA05777-AT- info.cas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric makes a good point - the dippiness of a tune (or dance) is highly subjective. And it ties into the thread on "poor Cecil" Personally I would classify ALL of Sephen Foster's songs as dippy, along with a lot of the other Victorian era (?) drivel that was in my elementary school songbooks. (I particularly loathe "My Grandfather's Clock".) This obviously puts me in direct conflict with the person who lamented the loss of Foster's materials from the current curriculum. There were also songs that I loved, including ones that were contemporaries with some that I hated. My favorites, however, were not the same as other kids'. In contrast to another poster, I do not consider Parson's Farewell a dippy dance; it is one of my favorites. That one is probably context-dependent, as it was the first moderately complex English dance I learned, I learned it in a set where the other 3 dancers already knew it, and I had a great deal of fun dancing it. Some of the dippiest music to me comes from commercial jingles - "you'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with Pepsodent," "see the USA in your Chevrolet". Part of what makes these annoying is that they are just snatches that repeat over and over again. I think over-exposrure can turn an innocuous tune into one I consider dippy. This suggests that novelty songs (e.g., ... yellow polka dot bikini...) have a high potential for ending up on this list. Probably the _most_ annoying type of tune is one I can't finish - I can't recall all of it, or it doesn't have a full cycle. I find if I can go all the way through one of the dippy songs in my mind, it will generally leave (though it may pop up again over the next few hours or days.) So, my votes for dippies tunes: commercial jingles (mostly from the 60's) > My Grandfather's Clock > Sonny > They're Coming to Take Me Away > Old Folks at Home > Swannee River > Camptown Races > How Much is that Doggie in the Window > anything by Tony Orlando and Dawn (e.g., Knock Three Times) > on the other hand, while "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" is really stupid and monotonous, I don't consider it as dippy as any of the above. Probably because I sang it on school trips, where the treat of going away from the classroom and out into the wider world put a sort of rosy glow on everything. YMMV - and probably will Sue Columbus OH ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:25:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:19:51 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Fw: cri de coeur To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <005a01bffe27$70f139a0$a098adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A forwarded response from my friend Steve Pick: ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Pick To: Paul Stamler Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Re: cri de coeur > >I wrote about the all-pervading modern commercial music that has >shouldered older more traditional forms out of modern youths consciousness. > >Steve asked: >>Isn't this rather beside the point? > >sorry, steve, I can't agree that the older songs have disappeared solely >because of political correct dogma. In Europe, we are not yet ashamed of >singing racist and sexist songs (we, the over 50s). We are only just >beginning to fall over backwards trying to be "correct" with our minorities >etc. The funny thing about the term "politically correct" is that it was originally a phrase coined by the left (if I'm not mistaken, by radical feminists, in fact) to describe those left wingers so caught up in their rhetoric that they forgot they were talking about human beings, and they forgot how to have a little fun now and again. Out of loyalty to its original meaning, I tried hard to stay away from the common misconception that any attempt to consider minority views was wrong because one was being politically correct. The fact is, learning to consider one's statements as to how they can be heard by people radically different from oneself is a good, ennobling trait. This doesn't mean you can't have a sense of humor, but it does mean that there are real reasons why words like "nigger" aren't bandied about anymore in America. And, that there are lots more words, thoughts, and ideas that should be sent to the same junkpile. Doesn't mean we should forget them, but we should understand them better. > >You may not agree with me that (some) big business is evil (profits today, >let the devil take tomorrrow), but, if there were not so much easy money to >be made out of mediocre recordings of third-rate bands, if big business had >not the means to promote whatever it wants to sell us, there would not be >so much mechanical (or rather, digital) music on radio and tv, and our >young school teachers would perhaps have some knowledge of real music to >pass on to their younger pupils. Oh, heaven spare us from the complete denigration of mass culture. You know, the traditional folk music this guy seems to revere was once the music of the masses, the illiterate, the unrefined, the tasteless. And, by comparison to other forms of music, most of it was pretty damn simple to create, if simplicity is defined by how many notes, and how many words outside of common usage are included. It's not bloody easy to make money in the pop music world. You need a base talent, most of the time (at the very least, you need talent for promotion, but usually there is a minimum degree of musical talent required, and frequently there is an abundance of it). Then you need a lot of money behind you. Then you need pure luck, great timing, and you still don't have a guarantee of success. There's nothing sadder to me than endless replication of the same old arguments that every generation has ever made as it grows older of how things just aren't as good as they once were culturally. The fact is, cultures change, in ways both good and bad. Holding on to the past is important, and that's why I love the fact that pure folkies exist. Without all you people immersing yourself in what once was, I'd have no access to it at all. But everything about the past is not inherently better than the present, nor vice versa. > >I can't help feeling that policial correctness in the US was all a plot to >get rid of the old in order to make way for the more profitable new (no >royalties on folk songs -- big bucks from pop). I assure you big business tycoons in the record industry would much prefer to have massive hits with songs in the public domain. That means they get a bigger cut for themselves. And folk songs cost way less to record, way less to promote in concert. If there was a plot, they'd have plotted it that way. > >Yes, it was a "cri du coeur" -- from someone who is very sad at seeing >everything traditional being depicted as old-fashioned, out-dated, and not >worth a second glance. I'm as sad at what saddens you as I am at the attitude expressed herein about the present. Steve Pick ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:31:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:25:59 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <008901bffe28$4c1ed820$a098adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000804005546.16786.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> <> Which means that, in that community, it's a genuine folk dance -- everybody knows it, it's done regularly, and no one takes much notice of it. Peace. Paul Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:54:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:48:46 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Fw: Poor Cecil! To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <013001bffe2b$7aa5d380$a098adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks: Another reply from friend Steve. Peace Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Pick To: Paul Stamler Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! > Given that each generation picks and chooses out of its history those > elements that it thinks will enhance its values, we are right to ask what > positive cultural, artistic, etc. values the music and dance we love can > promote. A sense of history? A shared creation rather than everyone > acting alone? An appreciation of balance and symetry? There's nothing > politically incorrect about that. > > --Mary Railing > Why is it folkies always forget that the greatest reason to preserve the music and dance of the past is its such purely wonderful art? I mean, yeah, it's my opinion that that's the greatest reason, and these other reasons are certainly valid, but to me, all you have to do is listen to Martin Carthy play guitar, to use one blatant example, and you realize that it is possible to revive (in the sense of bringing back to life) feelings, emotions, ideas, awe, inspirations, etc. of people long since gone. Steve who loves life and therefore loves music ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:59:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:22:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20000804072230.5332.qmail-AT- web3301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Meredith Birmingham wrote: > <> > > Still, political correctness is present, and definitely not > blameless. I sometimes think that I know more about > African-Americans' history than my own. When do we learn > intensively about German-American heritage, for example? As a > junior in high school, I still have not had a good look at > that part of my history. > I remember years ago, long before it became known as political correctness, when African-American related topics began to be introduced into the inner city schools which were primarily Black. I heard a story of students in a small school district in Minnesota demanding that classes be taught that studied their Scandinavian heritage. There were few, if any, Blacks in their system and the cultural heritage of the majority of students had *never* been taught. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 09:15:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 09:31:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804163133.4956.qmail-AT- web1606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Paul Stamler wrote: > Hi folks: > > Another reply from friend Steve. > > Why is it folkies always forget that the greatest reason to > preserve the > music and dance of the past is its such purely wonderful art? I > mean, yeah, > it's my opinion that that's the greatest reason, and these other > reasons are > certainly valid, but to me, all you have to do is listen to Martin > Carthy > play guitar, to use one blatant example, and you realize that it is > possible > to revive (in the sense of bringing back to life) feelings, > emotions, ideas, > awe, inspirations, etc. of people long since gone. These are my feelings about folk music (and country dancing) entirely. And since Martin Carthy's been used as example, I'd like to point out that at a class in ballads at Ashokan Northern Week last summer, Martin talked about a traditional song he absolutely refuses to sing, because he is convinced from the lyrics that it is the story of a child molester justifying his actions. According to Martin, it makes him feel unclean to sing it! If indeed songs are expressions of feelings, emotions, ideas, inspirations etc., not merely random collections of words that we are reciting because they have been "passed down" without having any particular meaning, then it does behoove us what meanings we are passing through our own selves. Barbara ===== Do you know about the Hunger Site? Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site. No purchases - all you do is click on the site. Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:04:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 3/8/2000 3:01:24 pm, system-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >Bruce, > Have you been under greater than usual stress this week? Of course, it all depends on your point of view, but some would regard taking a dance at Cecil Sharp House as putting one "under greater stress than usual"! Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:01:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:00:58 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Maryn McKenna wrote: > Parson's Farewell > any other dance you can name. > > maryn > atlanta > etc. I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have to disagree here. "New Boe Peep" has got to be the dippiest country dance ever devised. You have to peek around your partner's shoulder four times in the chorus. --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:50:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 16:50:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Cecil goes to public school... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I wish Allison Thompson had posted her eloquent rant concerning "Poor Cecil" prior to May 14. Had she done so I would have sent her a special invitation to the Richards School 5th Grade Orchestra Spring Concert in Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin. For in this public school concert my students performed music that would have met, I suspect, with her enthusiastic approval. She laments that > No one sings "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" or "Sweet Molly Malone" > or "Go Tell it on the Mountain" anymore; no one sings Stephen Foster > songs anymore (he is a native of my home town and another whole > complicated topic; yet, until I was an adult, children were still taught > Camptown Races & Jeannie & Dixie & the others, which represented--at > least up until then--a shared cultural past: Performed on this spring concert was: Auretti's Dutch Skipper The Three Ravens (played and sung) An anonymous 15th century Flemish march (with period percussion added for extra zip) This music isn't exactly "Dixie" but, to its credit, it isn't Disney either. In my remarks to parents that evening I explained my choice of repertoire (and this is the sort of music I teach every year) with a little rant of my own ..something to the effect that, despite the fact that there is a lot of Beethoven, Biber and Buddy Holly out there for string players to delve into during the course of their musical lives, they really haven't lived till they've dug into the blustery "Auretti's Dutch Skipper" or the melancholic "Three Ravens." And I really believe this or I wouldn't have said it in public. If nothing else, I have my quaint musical opinions. So one would think that, along with Alison Thompson, I too would feel sorry for "poor Cecil"...but for some reason I don't and I have spent the last few days trying to figure out why. Yes, in my school district and probably many others, American folk culture is neglected. But I'm not convinced this is a tragedy. Perhaps it is even a good thing. The image of folk music as being curricular... of general music teachers across America digging into the "Heritage Folk Arts" Unit at 8:45 every Monday and Wednesday morning, is vaguely disturbing. I believe that folk arts should only be taught by people who love the stuff. CurricuIar-izing it would kill it. I don't teach ECD tunes because I feel an obligation to pass on a precious and dying cultural heritage. I teach them for two reasons; one selfish and one pedagogical. Selfishly I teach these tunes because it's a blast to introduce someone else (especially wide-eyed ten-year -olds who are usually open to a teacher's quirky enthusiasms) a musical genre that I find so beautiful and musically fulfilling. And pedagogically, I believe that if a second year violin student can find her way around the skippy intricacies of Aurretti's Dutch Skipper, she has made technical progress on the instrument. When I show up to work every morning, I have only two goals: to "model" (as they say in certification school) enthusiasm for my "content area" so that my students will want to continue to play tunes and (secondly) to give them a good start on fiddle technique so that they will in their future musical lives be able to pursue their own quirky enthusiasms. Weather these enthusiasms turn out to be blues fiddle, Klezmer, or Biber Mystery Sonatas I leave to my students and the whims of St. Cecilia. I just want to help them get a little more musical spirit, a more graceful bow arm and a little more left-hand finger dexterity. The more technique you have, the more quirky you can be. In short, to really do it justice, Aurretti's Dutch Skipper should only be taught by a Dutch Skipper. But since there aren't any Dutch skippers in the neighborhood I figure I might as well do it. I'm not even close to being Dutch, but I sure like the tune. This whole discussion reminds me of that wonderful scene out of a Sherlock Holmes story. Holmes and Watson are on a train speeding through rural England on their way to the crime-scene. Watson is going on and on about the charm and quaintness of the villages that they are passing through. Holmes reminds Watson that if he had any idea of the horrors that lurked behind the doors of some of those quaint cottages he would change his tune in a hurry. So much for the country life. So much "Dixie" and the "Camp-Town Races." A few months ago I went to an English Country Dance weekend at a folklore center in rural Wisconsin expecting to reinvigorate my folk batteries. I had a wonderful time. The exquisitely designed dance hall, the wonderful band from Boston, and of course the dancers themselves who so kindly and patiently led me through my first halting and incompetent steps on the dance floor. It was idyllic but I had some qualms about how folkloric and rustic it all was. Perhaps it was the dancers who clued me in that this occasion was not much concerned with the life of the folk. The enrollees just didn't strike me as being country folks...too formally educated...too prosperous....too enthusiastic about country life to have lived there. And had I voiced my concerns, they would have probably been the fist to agree with me. So if not at "Folklore Village" ...where? It is ironic to think that if you want lead your kids to folk culture you don't entrust them to public school. You don't entrust them to summer arts camps in Connecticut. You don't even send them to Folklore Village in rural Dodgeville, Wisconsin. Where do you send them? I think I know of a place. Half a mile down the road from the Folklore Village is a truck-stop called the "151 Express." It is here, especially on Friday evenings during the "all-you can-eat fish fry buffet" and the juke box blaring, that you can get a feel for American Country life and our shared cultural heritage. It took only one pass through the buffet line and half an hour of overhearing a vigorous political discussion in the adjacent booth (as I bravely tried to gobble down my soggy French-fried clam strips) for me to get a taste of the real McCoy. And once tasted, I knew it was time to get the hell out of there....back up the road half a mile to the charm, the civility, and the calming urbanity of "Folklore Village." Jonathan Brodie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:07:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:19:35 +0100 From: Trevor Monson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poussette: push or pull? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <004b01bffe51$d54f18c0$839c01d4-AT- trevormo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01BFFA4C.199C5EC0-AT- ha10s226.d.shentel.net> <3.0.6.32.20000731190928.007feb00-AT- oz.net> > >Also, if "The Zitherman" - a dance by Colin Wallace with accompanying > >CD by "Cumbrian Gap" with the title of "Cumbriana Jones and the Theatre > >of Doom" has reached your part of the world yet, try calling that > >without being able to say "men push" or "ladies push". > > > >Trevor Monson. > > I don't know the dance. WHY couldn't we use some other way to describe the > poussette in it without using gender -based terminology, and without > telling people to push or pull each other? > > Even before I started calling poussettes as clockwise or counterclockwise, > I avoided telling people to push and pull by telling who is "advancing" EG > "man one and lady two advancing." Now, since people of the other gender > may be in those positions, I try to avoid referring to gender, and talk > about the geometry. So I'm intrigued by your challenge to find alternate > terminology. Please clarify, or describe the unique figure that wants a > non-gender specific description. > > Victoria Bestock > The first half of "The Zitherman" (and I quote) A1 1-4 Going forward and back, top two men half-poussette their partners across. New middles face down. 5-8 Going forward and back, bottom two men half-poussette their neighbours (in bottom four) along. These four face across. A2 1-4 Going forward and back, bottom two women half-poussette their partners across. New middles face up. 5-8 Going forward and back, top two women half-poussette their neighbours (in top four) along. All that to a fairly fast tempo tune! Now I am a believer that you can use as many words, or try as many ideas or variations to get an idea over in the walkthrough, but the last thing you want when actually dancing is too many words or else why bother with the music because the dancers won't be able to hear it over you anyway. So, once the dancers understand where they are meant to be going, when dancing they (we!) may not remember where to go. This is were we need the shortest possible reminder, and in this dance I tend to call: "Top 2 - men push partner. Middles face down - men push. Bottom 2 - ladies push partner. Middles face up - ladies push." which I find is adequate to get everyone through the dance. This is also easy to use sex to push, as the same sex people are doing the same thing. So why make it sexless? Whatever anyone says, (and how pc you hope to be) I still believe that dancing, especially ECD with its years of tradition, is not sexless, and should not be. I am not saying people must never take the role of the other gender - we know there is never an equal male/female balance at a dance, and why should people sit out? But, why do we need to take the gender out of calling a dance. Dancers need to know what gender they are dancing during a dance, or else how do they know which hold to take? (But that is another subject!) Trev (Who has had to dance the other gender/sex as a lady/women or whatever terminology you want to use - and does not mind being told what to do as a lady!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:07:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 20:41:11 +0100 From: Trevor Monson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <004a01bffe51$d3f7c620$839c01d4-AT- trevormo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <000a01bffb67$62bab630$6d981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> Pat, "The Highland Rambler" is a 40 bar reel published in the "Leeds 25" book - of which I have not got a copy. I've given details as per the CardCrib, but this doesn't show the actual bars. 1s cast off 1 pl; 1s & 3s RH ac. 2s & 1s LH ac; 1W followed by prtnr cast up behind 2W & dance down centre, finish 1W between 3s, 1M between 2s. All 3 cples dance down middle and up. 1M followed by prtnr cast off behind 2W, cross to 2nd pl; 1s turn RH. 2s 1s & 3s circle round and back. However, if you would like the full original, please ask - but it may take me a couple of weeks to get hold of a copy. I think I have now danced it at English dances about 3 or 4 times, called by a different person each time (so it must be catching on) but they seem to add set to your partner all over the place, and then the phrasing is right across the music etc. etc.- but each time it seemed so bad I tried to forget it!! (and obviously have because I can't remember the changes!) > Trevor, you ask: "would it fit English timing?" Well, it's an 8 bar figure, > so..... > > Do you have the source for The Highland Rambler? I'd like to look at the > instructions for both the SCD and the ECD versions. Scottish dances are so > straightforward, with respect to phrasing, that I really marvel that you say > this dance didn't translate directly into ECD. > > Pat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 18:59:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:59:34 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000201bffe80$cd3980b0$34981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, Trevor, Dianna Shipman was kind enough to send complete instructions, and I realized that I had danced it on several occasions in class, just didn't have my own copy of the dance. From the looks of the barring, as I told Dianna, I can't see why ECD would have any difficulty in doing it; it's very regular (so what Scottish dance isn't, I asked Dianna, rhetorically). Now you say that ECD adds setting. Why? Where would it fit? Setting takes up two bars of music. These figures don't look like they would benefit from having two bars removed from their execution. Gotta say I'm puzzled about this. What I did mention to Dianna was my idle thought that maybe ECD finds that those track figures for the 1s, combined with the down the middle and up, create a rather "empty" sequence. In SCD these are exciting, I guess because of the footwork; but in ECD, walking these figures might seem kind of aimless. Don't really know, though, just musing; haven't ever tried it walking. Are there any other ECD groups out there who are doing this dance? Why? Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of Trevor Monson Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 3:41 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through Pat, "The Highland Rambler" is a 40 bar reel published in the "Leeds 25" book - of which I have not got a copy. I've given details as per the CardCrib, but this doesn't show the actual bars. 1s cast off 1 pl; 1s & 3s RH ac. 2s & 1s LH ac; 1W followed by prtnr cast up behind 2W & dance down centre, finish 1W between 3s, 1M between 2s. All 3 cples dance down middle and up. 1M followed by prtnr cast off behind 2W, cross to 2nd pl; 1s turn RH. 2s 1s & 3s circle round and back. However, if you would like the full original, please ask - but it may take me a couple of weeks to get hold of a copy. I think I have now danced it at English dances about 3 or 4 times, called by a different person each time (so it must be catching on) but they seem to add set to your partner all over the place, and then the phrasing is right across the music etc. etc.- but each time it seemed so bad I tried to forget it!! (and obviously have because I can't remember the changes!) > Trevor, you ask: "would it fit English timing?" Well, it's an 8 bar figure, > so..... > > Do you have the source for The Highland Rambler? I'd like to look at the > instructions for both the SCD and the ECD versions. Scottish dances are so > straightforward, with respect to phrasing, that I really marvel that you say > this dance didn't translate directly into ECD. > > Pat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 18:59:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:59:35 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Take a little peek. Was: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000301bffe80$ce340d50$34981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary wrote: "'New Boe Peep' has got to be the dippiest country dance ever devised. You have to peek around your partner's shoulder four times in the chorus." "Take a little peek" is a common figure in Southern squares, as in "heads lead out to the right and take a little peek around couple #2." I've wondered, but not enough actually to research this, if the idea of "taking a peek" continued unbroken from Playford dances on down to American squares. There's that Grand Square figure in Hunsdon House, that seems to be just there and nowhere else until when -- quadrilles? American squares? Is the same true for Taking a Peek, or does it persist through the centuries, in dances no one wants to do? Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:29:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:29:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000805022905.18901.qmail-AT- web2105.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Andrew Peterson wrote: > For years I have worked with people who *must* have the > radio on all the time....I was talking about this constant > annoyance with Lyrl one time and she suggested that people > have the radio on in order to drown out the thoughts that > are churning through their heads. You must all understand that I was the 4-year-old whose mother automatically put the radio on every morning--until I plaintively asked, "Mama, couldn't we have it QUIET sometimes?" --Lyrl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:49:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:49:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000805024914.24069.qmail-AT- web2104.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > > Is this evil? Maybe. Can we fix it by teaching them > "Old Dan Tucker" in school? I doubt it (especially > considering that one of our big problems in the Bay Area > in running a traditional square dance series is that > people did square dancing in grade school and hated it). I did square dancing in 5th and 6th grades, and I loved it--BUT it was an after-school activity taught by another Pan Am couple who loved it themselves and offered 3 age-groupings of classes at the American School in Japan (Tokyo). Every so often, I see remnants of my square dance skirt in something my mom makes: a quilt or a potholder. > I do think it's worth doing traditional music and dance > in schools. If we can get specialists who are good at it > in, rather than simply add it to the workload of the > existing teachers, it may well be worthwhile. That makes all the difference. --Lyrl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 20:33:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 23:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fw: cri de coeur To: ecd list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Paul Stamler wrote: > > The fact is, learning to consider one's statements as to how they can be > heard by people radically different from oneself is a good, ennobling trait. > This doesn't mean you can't have a sense of humor, but it does mean that > there are real reasons why words like "nigger" aren't bandied about anymore > in America. And, that there are lots more words, thoughts, and ideas that > should be sent to the same junkpile. Doesn't mean we should forget them, but I find it difficult to believe this is the real situation, since such reasoning is not applied to labels directed at groups it is Politically Correct to despise. My unfavorite example (as a member of what the party-that-claims-a-monopoly-on-compassion, shortly after going blue in their faces denouncing Republicans as "the party of hate", publicly branded a "strange church" that "doesn't believe in normal things") is "cult". Can you imagine people justifying themselves with "What _I_ mean by 'nigger' is..." and getting away with it?) Similarly with "fundies" and "rednecks", and, indeed, "yuppies". ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:53:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 00:53:33 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9a.80bdf1c.26bcf7cd-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/4/00 9:18:23 AM EST, eba-AT- umich.edu writes: << What are other factors which you find make a tune dippy? Does the fact that you can't get it out of your head alone qualify it? Or does it have to be that you can't get rid of it even when you want to? I've had a couple of tunes running through my head ever since Early Music week at Pinewoods a couple of weeks ago, even with a week's vacation following that, and they're great tunes and I love having them there! >> A great melody running through your head is just that, a great melody running through your head. It can become annoying I suppose, but I doubt it. It's quite different from hearing an irritating tune and being unable to get it out of your head -- or replace it with a better one. When I was an active musician, I had all sorts of music running through my head, and it didn't really bother me. And I still do whenever I spend time with a particular piece of music either in my work or in ECD. After a Ball I often have whirl of tunes in my head for the next day or two. I can't say that I mind it at all -- even the dippy ones. One additional category for the annoying/dippy tune would be a good melody -- even a beautiful melody -- rendered annoying or dippy by a terrible arrangement. One that comes to mind is Schubert's lovely Ave Maria -- which can be sublime (although it's not on my Top 10 list by a long shot). But it can also be truly awful in those treacly, nauseatingly saccharine arrangements that have been perpetrated on it. (I won't even go into bad performances which is another issue altogether.) Anyway, I much prefer the original Ave Maria plainchant -- or any of its wonderful settings. Now there's a tune I wouldn't mind having in my head for while. Suzanne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 22:35:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 00:29:55 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Steve Pick Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <007401bffe9e$31d82540$e096adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000805024914.24069.qmail-AT- web2104.mail.yahoo.com> -<<-Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > > Is this evil? Maybe. Can we fix it by teaching them > "Old Dan Tucker" in school? I doubt it (especially > considering that one of our big problems in the Bay Area > in running a traditional square dance series is that > people did square dancing in grade school and hated it). >> And Lyrl wrote: < I do think it's worth doing traditional music and dance > in schools. If we can get specialists who are good at it > in, rather than simply add it to the workload of the > existing teachers, it may well be worthwhile. That makes all the difference.>> Indeed. When I was a kid, the folk revival of the late 50s was going on, and as I went to a left-wingish school we had music teachers who actually knew something about traditional music beyond what they'd gotten in teacher's guides. Much more important, we had school assemblies with professional musicians who knew how to entertain -- I remember particularly Frank Hamilton playing in the gym (one of the co-founders of Chicago's Old Town School of Folk Music, and later a replacement for Pete Seeger in the Weavers). He played the hell out of the music, he knew it through and through, and -- most important -- he clearly loved it, and took for granted that it was sufficiently lovable that we'd love it too. And we did. (Interestingly enough, through the miracle of the internet Frank is now one of my correspondents, and he remains a very interesting man.) Maybe assemblies can do more to inspire kids than having it shoved down their throat in class. Part of the success of this assembly came from the fact that Frank mostly sang grownup songs, rather than "kiddie folk songs". He never talked (sang) down to us, and we respected that. Enough rambling for the moment. Peace. Paul __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 22:43:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 00:37:45 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Fw: cri de coeur To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <007d01bffe9f$494b73c0$e096adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Paul Stamler wrote: > > The fact is, learning to consider one's statements as to how they can be > heard by people radically different from oneself is a good, ennobling trait. > This doesn't mean you can't have a sense of humor, but it does mean that > there are real reasons why words like "nigger" aren't bandied about anymore > in America. And, that there are lots more words, thoughts, and ideas that > should be sent to the same junkpile. Doesn't mean we should forget them, but Actually, I didn't write those words, although I agree with them. They came from Steve Pick; I just forwarded them. Credit where credit is due. Peace. Paul S. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 00:31:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 00:31:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Take a little peek. Was: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSLB2JLXJQ9BVWEN-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Patricia wrote: "Take a little peek" is a common figure in Southern squares, as in "heads lead out to the right and take a little peek around couple #2." I've wondered, but not enough actually to research this, if the idea of "taking a peek" continued unbroken from Playford dances on down to American squares. There's that Grand Square figure in Hunsdon House, that seems to be just there and nowhere else until when -- quadrilles? American squares? Is the same true for Taking a Peek, or does it persist through the centuries, in dances no one wants to do? Both "Trip to Tunbridge" and "Chorus Jig" get called with "take a little peek", but I don't know whether that's justified by textual sources or has been applied retrospectively by people exposed to Southern squares. (Actually, I am completely sure, even without looking, that the late-18th century source for "Trip to Tunbridge" doesn't literally say "take a little peek") Don't know if this actually helps. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:29:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 10:31:28 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fw: cri de coeur To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000805103128.007e72a0-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm not sure if I'm talking ot Paul or to Steve, but anyway ... One of you wrote: >Oh, heaven spare us from the complete denigration of mass culture. When mass culture (which, by the way, is produced to be *consumed* by the masses, it is not produced or *performed* by the masses) gives us something as lasting as the music of composers from Bach through Mahler, I will certainly not denigrate it. In its music, I am convinced that Europe achieved what has never been achieved anywhere else, a complexity of harmonies with precise timing of rhythm and precise pitching of tone, a range of expression, all backed up by the extraordinary craftsmanship of of the makers of the many different instruments that developed in the 17th & 18th centuries. The music we use for country dancing is a result of these developments. Europe also achieved great advances in philosophy and science, but has not always used the discovereries for the greater good of mankind, alas ! On the other hand, (as far as I know) no harm ever came of Europe's musical discoveries Bach took popular rhythms (jigs hornpipes etc) and developed them into lasting masterpieces. We may not agree with the religious words that were attached to the music (without which Bach's work would never have gained acceptance), but they do not prevent us from appreciating the musical qualities. Similarly, we may consider that most songs are mere froth, but that does not stop us aiming at perfection when we sing them. Now we are throwing away the greatness we achieved. Instead of passing an appreciation of this greatness, we are allowing ourselves to be swamped in mediocrity. Ne need to create interssting harmonies -- the synthesizer will do all th wxork; no need for a singer to work on his voice -- it will be digitialized and imperfections will vanish. I have come to know and like the music of some non-european cultures, I feel I am open to styles other than those I grew up with. I can get an emotional lift from Arab music, for example, but when I think about it, there has been no striving to achieve greatness and no development. >the traditional folk music this guy seems to revere was once the music of >the masses, the illiterate, the unrefined, the tasteless. This guy does not revere trad folk music, but he may enjoy it when it is played well) >It's not bloody easy to make money in the pop music world. Pull the other one ! Record companies are raking it in. > endless replication of the same old >arguments (...) of how >things just aren't as good as they once were culturally. It's not the cultural (musical) change I am moaning about. I'm bemoaning the fact that our culture has been taken out of our hands. The latest fashion in clothes or the latest trend in music was decided months in advance by the merchants that supply the goods -- the People have nothing to do with either creation or choice. We are consumers, not creators? puppets not actors. We amy have gotten rid of the oppressive rule of the aristocraxcy and the church, but we have put ourselves in the hands of ... big business. The traditional/folk/country dancing world however is still free of this commercialism. I don't feel that the musicians expect to make a fortune out of their playing or recording, any more than the teachers or devisers expect to get much for their efforts. The dancers are not just consumers, they perform for their own pleasure (some even create new steps and figures, though that may be by accident !) and to share with others. May this spirit long remain ! Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 05:41:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:37:43 +0100 From: Trevor Monson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Highland Rambler To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000401bffeda$b03bd4e0$f39c01d4-AT- trevormo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Margaret wrote: "Greetings from Newfoundland! These are the directions for the Highland Rambler from my files. As with all cribs, it is dancer beware, but it does show the barring. I have never danced this as an ECD. WHat music would you recommend? " and Pat wrote: "From the looks of the barring, as I told Dianna, I can't see why ECD would have any difficulty in doing it; it's very regular (so what Scottish dance isn't, I asked Dianna, rhetorically). Now you say that ECD adds setting. Why? Where would it fit? Setting takes up two bars of music. These figures don't look like they would benefit from having two bars removed from their execution. Gotta say I'm puzzled about this. What I did mention to Dianna was my idle thought that maybe ECD finds that those track figures for the 1s, combined with the down the middle and up, create a rather "empty" sequence. In SCD these are exciting, I guess because of the footwork; but in ECD, walking these figures might seem kind of aimless. Don't really know, though, just musing; haven't ever tried it walking. Are there any other ECD groups out there who are doing this dance? Why?" I'm afraid I can't answer any of these questions - sorry. This is because a) I cannot remember the tune (or even the rhythm) used for the ECD version b) As I said earlier, I cannot remember all the alterations - but I do know it really grated and I hated it! So, is there anyone who was at the same festivals/dances as me, or is there anyone over here (England) calling this dance - maybe we could get your view, or at least find out what changes have been made and why. Trev. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:47:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000805204702.8388.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Lyrl Ahern wrote: > > I did square dancing in 5th and 6th grades, and I loved > it--BUT it was an after-school activity taught by another > Pan Am couple who loved it themselves and offered 3 > age-groupings of classes at the American School in Japan > (Tokyo). > Every so often, I see remnants of my square dance skirt > in something my mom makes: a quilt or a potholder. > I don't really remember this, but I was only in 1st grade when we came back to the States. The thing I remember was that the Men's Club at the Methodist church that we went to in Maryland used to have family square dances in the auditorium at the Coke bottling plant and our mother used to take us to those. I remember having fun at those and there were a couple girls from my class at school who also came so there was somebody my age to dance with. I also vaguely remember them having live music. The dance related thing I remember from Japan was that my sisters took a class in Japanese dance. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:58:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:58:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000805205806.8461.qmail-AT- web3303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Lyrl Ahern wrote: > > You must all understand that I was the 4-year-old whose > mother automatically put the radio on every morning--until > I plaintively asked, "Mama, couldn't we have it QUIET > sometimes?" > Yet now, even when she is alone, our mother seldom has music playing. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:40:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:40:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poussette: push or pull? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000805214028.12289.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Trevor Monson wrote: > > This is also easy to use sex to push, as the same sex people > are doing the same thing. So why make it sexless? Whatever > anyone says, (and how pc you hope to be) I still believe that > dancing, especially ECD with its years of tradition, is not > sexless, and should not be. > I have agonized over the complexities that some people go to in order to find some sexless PC way of explaining a figure when if they would just say "men do this and women do this" it would get it done in a very few words and we could get on with the dancing. I agree with Trevor that no matter how PC you want to be, ECD is *not* a sexless dance form. In fact some Balkan line dances (which for the most part are about as generic as you can get) are not sexless as certain dances were men's dances and certain dances were women's dances and there are teachers that insist that one sex *not* do dances of the other sex. (Of course as teachers they teach dances of either sex.) Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 15:18:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 18:17:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re:Gender free Poussette calls / Take a little Peek To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <76.1d53ef9.26bdec93-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Victoria Bestock seems to feel the need to remove the sex/gender elements from ECD, and this seems to be a need felt by a sizeable number of ECD'ers in the USA. However, this seems not to be a problem in Britain, where we enjoy the 'art' of Country dancing in much the form it has reached us and with the conventions handed down. I am asked by my wife, who has been a Country Dancer from the age of five, to say that she has "no hang-ups about dancing as a 'man' and being addressed as such" (I quote). Clearly, this is something which is felt differently on the two sides of the Atlantic, and points up yet again the fact that we are "two nations divided by a common language". Autre pays, autre moeurs. By the way, do SCD'ers on the western side of the pond employ gender-free teaching? "Take a Peek": This instruction is found in " 'Twas within a Furlong of Edinborough Town", where the text reads "The 1. man lead his wo. down the middle, then cast up and give a peep ..." - this from The Dancing Master Vol I Part II 1696 (and therefore one of Henry Playford's editions). Is this the earliest use, I wonder? I also thought that the same thing must occur in "Miss Sayers' Allemande". as I have a very clear recollection of having decided firmly to shun this dance on account of having to do this (to me) rather twee/coy thing. However, recourse to Fallibroome 1 and "The Playford Ball" shew no such instruction in either Bernard Bentley's transcript or Genny Shimer's/Kitty Keller's, or indeed in the original words: I am therefore forced to the conclusion that it is a modern dancers' insertion - maybe I'll be able to view this dance in a whole new light from now on! Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 19:23:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 22:23:34 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Gender free Poussette calls / Take a little Peek To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001bfff4d$522f9d00$26981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Nicholas, you wrote: "By the way, do SCD'ers on the western side of the pond employ gender-free teaching?" I've been dancing SCD for 10 years in the mid-Atlantic area and have yet to encounter it, or any desire for it. At camps and teaching weekends, guest teachers from Canada and other parts of the U.S. never mention it, never even allude to such a thing. Your wife's words would fit the situation perfectly: women dance as men and follow directions as men. My husband wants to adds that even in ECD, our experience is that there is very little gender-free teaching, and, seemingly, very little interest. Next you address "take a peek" -- "This instruction is found in " 'Twas within a Furlong of Edinborough Town", where the text reads "The 1. man lead his wo. down the middle, then cast up and give a peep ..." - this from The Dancing Master Vol I Part II 1696 (and therefore one of Henry Playford's editions). Is this the earliest use, I wonder?" The dance under discussion, "New Boe peep," is from Playford 1st edition, predating "Edinborough Town." I won't quote the instructions, as I'm sure you have them. You continue: "I also thought that the same thing must occur in "Miss Sayers' Allemande". as I have a very clear recollection of having decided firmly to shun this dance on account of having to do this (to me) rather twee/coy thing. However, recourse to Fallibroome 1 and "The Playford Ball" shew no such instruction in either Bernard Bentley's transcript or Genny Shimer's/Kitty Keller's, or indeed in the original words: I am therefore forced to the conclusion that it is a modern dancers' insertion - maybe I'll be able to view this dance in a whole new light from now on!" I've never encountered it in "Miss Sayers' Allemande" either. Thank goodness. Pat Ruggiero Charlottesville, Virginia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 19:23:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 22:23:35 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Take a little peek To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000101bfff4d$52fadc40$26981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan, you wrote: "Both "Trip to Tunbridge" and "Chorus Jig" get called with "take a little peek", but I don't know whether that's justified by textual sources or has been applied retrospectively by people exposed to Southern squares. (Actually, I am completely sure, even without looking, that the late-18th century source for "Trip to Tunbridge" doesn't literally say "take a little peek")" You're right about "Trip to Tunbridge." The original instructions, extremely brief that they are, do not say word one about taking a peek. I recall that Beverly Francis (sp? my apologies if wrong) taught this dance at the Amherst Assembly (to make a point about the A2 figure), and she did not even address the possibility that such an antic existed in this dance. I have been dancing Chorus Jig for years, most of those in the Washington, D.C., area, where Southern Squares once were quite popular, and taking a peek was never part of the dance. In the dances to which you refer, I assume you mean that the peeking occurs as the 1s dance down the outside -- at the point where they turn to dance back up, they sort of "hitch" and peek across at each other. Is that it? I say this because I do know callers who add "take a little peek" in other dances at just this place in the dance. Cute. Pat ============================================================================ === Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 ============================================================================ === ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 20:56:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 20:56:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Take a little peek To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSMHBKIOQA9BVVQH-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Pat wrote: You're right about "Trip to Tunbridge." The original instructions, extremely brief that they are, do not say word one about taking a peek. I recall that Beverly Francis (sp? my apologies if wrong) taught this dance at the Amherst Assembly (to make a point about the A2 figure), and she did not even address the possibility that such an antic existed in this dance. I have been dancing Chorus Jig for years, most of those in the Washington, D.C., area, where Southern Squares once were quite popular, and taking a peek was never part of the dance. In the dances to which you refer, I assume you mean that the peeking occurs as the 1s dance down the outside -- at the point where they turn to dance back up, they sort of "hitch" and peek across at each other. Is that it? I say this because I do know callers who add "take a little peek" in other dances at just this place in the dance. Cute. I think I can hear the flinty, if not frosty, tone in which you say the word "Cute." So, yes, that is exactly what I mean. (Or part of it, anyway. Would it still be cute peeking if, say, both 1s turned in to face and made eye contact before heading back up?) Does Beverly (or anybody else) have anything to say about the attitude with which one goes down the outside by oneself and comes back? I must confess some slight difficulty in seeing the point of this figure, at least without checking in with your partner halfway through. (No problem with interesting paths taken by oneself; no problem with straightforward paths that have destinations different from the start. No problem going anyplace with partner, even if it's two steps up the middle and two more back down. But by yourself . . . well, I suppose the necessity to keep partner in peripheral vision so that you can maintain a symmetrical location, finally resulting in a reunion when you both get back home and set off down the middle together, results in a little bit of that tension and release you're supposed to get in, say, a gypsy meltdown - or, in my experience, _do_ get in the contra corners into balance and swing in Chorus Jig. But even in a gypsy meltdown, they don't usually make you wait more than four bars for it, and the down and back is eight bars. Seems kind of arbitrary, and it's a long way to go without interacting with anybody. Maybe this is why you don't see that much of this figure in recently-composed English dances.) This is quite different from, say, Joy After Sorrow, where W1 goes down the outside while M1 goes down the inside, and they can maintain eye contact all the way down. (With only one row of people in between you, this can work very well.) All my own aesthetics, of course, and nobody has to agree with me. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 01:36:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 01:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Take a little peek To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000806083631.832.qmail-AT- web3304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Patricia Ruggiero wrote: > ..."Trip to Tunbridge." The original instructions, > extremely brief that they are, do not say word one about > taking a peek. I know Trip to Tunbridge has been taught by some as "take a peek", but I have also been taught to cast back up to second place, so the "peek" becomes a sort of acknowledgment of your partner across the set before turning away from them to go back up to second place. > > I have been dancing Chorus Jig for years, most of those in the > Washington, D.C., area, where Southern Squares once were quite > popular, and taking a peek was never part of the dance. > I don't remember anybody really teaching Chorus Jig as a "peek" but I do stay fairly parallel to my partner and if there is eye contact across the set when we turn back up the outside, that is great. I find there is generally a lot less eye contact in Contras and am quite surprised, for instance, when everyone in a hey makes eye contact with me. In ECD I expect it. > In the dances to which you refer, I assume you mean that the > peeking occurs as the 1s dance down the outside -- at the point > where they turn to dance back up, they sort of "hitch" and peek > across at each other. Is that it? It is a place where acknowledgment of some sort across the set is natural to me. I don't like to exaggerate it but do like *some* eye contact. I was taught to make eye contact at any opportunity when dancing and have found many great moments that most people miss. On occassion I have been met with looks of surprise followed by pleasure from people who had no idea the particular moment existed. When you have eye contact it is easier to help a person who is uncertain of the figure. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 02:09:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 02:09:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000806090903.16718.qmail-AT- web3301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Nicholas, you wrote: >> "By the way, do SCD'ers on the western side of the pond employ >> gender-free teaching?" > --- Patricia Ruggiero wrote: > I've been dancing SCD for 10 years in the mid-Atlantic area > and have yet to encounter it, or any desire for it. At camps > and teaching weekends, guest teachers from Canada and other > parts of the U.S. never mention it, never even allude to such a > thing. Your wife's words would fit the situation perfectly: > women dance as men and follow directions as men. > > My husband wants to adds that even in ECD, our experience is > that there is very little gender-free teaching, and, seemingly, > very little interest. > There *is* a strong movement in the Northwest because of a conception that using gender terms makes the dancing less accessable to people of different sexual orientation. I know that the gay and lesbian community in the Hartford area had their own Contra dances seperate from the Hartford community that I danced in. My feeling is that I have never found anyone who teaches gender-free without running into awkward moments when they stumble around trying to find a simple way to say something that would be perfectly understandable if they would just use the gender terms that are traditional to ECD and Contra. It doesn't matter to me which particular position I'm standing in, just use terms that make it understandable without stumbling around for five minutes because you don't want to offend someones sex. One of basic differences that I have been very aware of between the East Coast and the Northwest in both ECD and Contra is that the dance communities are so new here that there is no sense of the deep traditions that exist. Nobody here is really teaching anything about traditions, maybe because many of those who are teaching dances aren't fully aware of the traditions themselves. A lot of other things in the West are too recent to have much sense of tradition behind them. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 07:44:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 09:38:43 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Fw: Cecil goes to public school... To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002801bfffb4$061fb280$bb98adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Another forward. Peace. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Pick To: Paul Stamler Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Cecil goes to public school... Paul, on a mailing list of St. Louis music makers and consumers called Noisemakers, we have taken a phrase of enthusiastic support from the world of drag queens, and use it whenever we find somebody has phrased something exactly the way it should be. When the person has phrased it even better than we could ever have imagined, or made several cogent points in one post, we add adverbs of further delight. So, to this Jonathan Brodie post, I say, with all the best intentions in the world, You goddam go, girl!!! Steve Pick -----Original Message----- From: Paul Stamler To: John Uhlemann ; Rebecca Taylor ; Steve Pick ; David Kirchner ; Caroline Fahrney Date: Saturday, August 05, 2000 12:43 AM Subject: Fw: Cecil goes to public school... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 3:50 PM >Subject: Cecil goes to public school... > > >I wish Allison Thompson had posted her eloquent rant concerning "Poor Cecil" >prior to May 14. Had she done so I would have sent her a special invitation >to the Richards School 5th Grade Orchestra Spring Concert in Whitefish Bay, >Wisconsin. For in this public school concert my students performed music >that would have met, I suspect, with her enthusiastic approval. She laments >that > >> No one sings "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" or "Sweet Molly Malone" >> or "Go Tell it on the Mountain" anymore; no one sings Stephen Foster >> songs anymore (he is a native of my home town and another whole >> complicated topic; yet, until I was an adult, children were still taught >> Camptown Races & Jeannie & Dixie & the others, which represented--at >> least up until then--a shared cultural past: > > Performed on this spring concert was: > >Auretti's Dutch Skipper >The Three Ravens (played and sung) >An anonymous 15th century Flemish march (with period percussion added for >extra zip) > >This music isn't exactly "Dixie" but, to its credit, it isn't Disney either. > >In my remarks to parents that evening I explained my choice of repertoire >(and this is the sort of music I teach every year) with a little rant of my >own ..something to the effect that, despite the fact that there is a lot of >Beethoven, Biber and Buddy Holly out there for string players to delve into >during the course of their musical lives, they really haven't lived till >they've dug into the blustery "Auretti's Dutch Skipper" or the melancholic >"Three Ravens." > >And I really believe this or I wouldn't have said it in public. If nothing >else, I have my quaint musical opinions. > >So one would think that, along with Alison Thompson, I too would feel sorry >for "poor Cecil"...but for some reason I don't and I have spent the last few >days trying to figure out why. > >Yes, in my school district and probably many others, American folk culture >is >neglected. But I'm not convinced this is a tragedy. Perhaps it is even a >good thing. The image of folk music as being curricular... of general music >teachers across America digging into the "Heritage Folk Arts" Unit at 8:45 >every Monday and Wednesday morning, is vaguely disturbing. I believe that >folk arts should only be taught by people who love the stuff. >CurricuIar-izing it would kill it. I don't teach ECD tunes because I feel >an obligation to pass on a precious and dying cultural heritage. I teach >them for two reasons; one selfish and one pedagogical. Selfishly I teach >these tunes because it's a blast to introduce someone else (especially >wide-eyed ten-year -olds who are usually open to a teacher's quirky >enthusiasms) a musical genre that I find so beautiful and musically >fulfilling. And pedagogically, I believe that if a second year violin >student can find her way around the skippy intricacies of Aurretti's Dutch >Skipper, she has made technical progress on the instrument. When I show up >to work every morning, I have only two goals: to "model" (as they say in >certification school) enthusiasm for my "content area" so that my students >will want to continue to play tunes and (secondly) to give them a good start >on fiddle technique so that they will in their future musical lives be able >to pursue their own quirky enthusiasms. Weather these enthusiasms turn out >to be blues fiddle, Klezmer, or Biber Mystery Sonatas I leave to my students >and the whims of St. Cecilia. I just want to help them get a little more >musical spirit, a more graceful bow arm and a little more left-hand finger >dexterity. The more technique you have, the more quirky you can be. > >In short, to really do it justice, Aurretti's Dutch Skipper should only be >taught by a Dutch Skipper. But since there aren't any Dutch skippers in the >neighborhood I figure I might as well do it. I'm not even close to being >Dutch, but I sure like the tune. > >This whole discussion reminds me of that wonderful scene out of a Sherlock >Holmes story. Holmes and Watson are on a train speeding through rural >England on their way to the crime-scene. Watson is going on and on about >the >charm and quaintness of the villages that they are passing through. Holmes >reminds Watson that if he had any idea of the horrors that lurked behind the >doors of some of those quaint cottages he would change his tune in a hurry. >So much for the country life. So much "Dixie" and the "Camp-Town Races." > > A few months ago I went to an English Country Dance weekend at a folklore >center in rural Wisconsin expecting to reinvigorate my folk batteries. I >had >a wonderful time. The exquisitely designed dance hall, the wonderful band >from Boston, and of course the dancers themselves who so kindly and >patiently >led me through my first halting and incompetent steps on the dance floor. >It >was idyllic but I had some qualms about how folkloric and rustic it all was. >Perhaps it was the dancers who clued me in that this occasion was not much >concerned with the life of the folk. The enrollees just didn't strike me >as >being country folks...too formally educated...too prosperous....too >enthusiastic about country life to have lived there. And had I voiced my >concerns, they would have probably been the fist to agree with me. > So if not at "Folklore Village" ...where? It is ironic to think that >if you want lead your kids to folk culture you don't entrust them to public >school. You don't entrust them to summer arts camps in Connecticut. You >don't even send them to Folklore Village in rural Dodgeville, Wisconsin. >Where do you send them? I think I know of a place. > Half a mile down the road from the Folklore Village is a truck-stop >called the "151 Express." It is here, especially on Friday evenings during >the "all-you can-eat fish fry buffet" and the juke box blaring, that you can > >get a feel for American Country life and our shared cultural heritage. It >took only one pass through the buffet line and half an hour of overhearing a >vigorous political discussion in the adjacent booth (as I bravely tried to >gobble down my soggy French-fried clam strips) for me to get a taste of the >real McCoy. And once tasted, I knew it was time to get the hell out of >there....back up the road half a mile to the charm, the civility, and the >calming urbanity of "Folklore Village." > >Jonathan Brodie > > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 09:25:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 12:24:50 -0400 (EDT) From: ACFerg-AT- cs.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Announcement of Boston's Fall Favorites Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9f.8ff2a01.26beeb52-AT- cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Fellow ECDers, Below is an announcement of the Boston Centre's Fall Favorites Dance. It is one of our very best dances of the season, rivaling the Playford Ball, and gave rise to the title and dance selections for the two volumes of the Favorites of the Boston Centre CD's. It would be wonderful to see many of you there. Best regards, Arthur ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CDS-Boston Centre presents EIGHTH ANNUAL "FALL FAVORITES" ENGLISH COUNTRY DANCE PARTY Saturday, October 28, 2000 8:00-11:00 P.M. Weston Town Hall Weston, Massachusetts (The Town Hall is on Town House Road in Weston Center, which is on the Boston Post Road off Route 20) Tickets: $8.00 in advance; $10.00 at the door LEADER: Helene Cornelius MUSICIANS: Bare Necessities HELP SELECT THE PROGRAM As in the past, dancers registering in advance may nominate five dances for inclusion in the program. The program will be made up primarily of the dances which receive the largest number of votes. Those wishing to register in advance should send checks for $8.00 per dancer made out to CDS, Boston Centre, along with their dance nominations, to Arthur Ferguson 31 Ledgewood Road Framingham, MA 01701-3626 by October 14. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 19:52:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 22:52:36 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Take a little peek To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001c0001a$8ab96750$54981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello to Alan and Andy, Sorry if I gave the impression that I didn't think eye contact was important in this figure. I was recalling certain experiences I'd had where callers and dancers, for whatever reason, interpreted the call "...and take a little peek," at the turnaround point in "down the outside and back," as requiring a "hitch" (think clogging), maybe even a wave, as they made most pointed eye contact, before turning around. I remember something Helene Cornelius once said, about folks "hopping" or "bounding" in to meet their partner in the progressive figure of Nonesuch. Her exact words were (ahem) something like this: "It isn't amusing the first time, and it doesn't become more amusing with increasing repetition." That describes how I feel about "taking a little peek" when done, especially repeatedly, as described above. Eye contact in this figure? Of course. All the way through. In which case, "taking a little peek" is not necessary, as one has been looking at one's partner the entire time. It is enough to say "down the outside and back." Good dancers know how to execute this. Just as they do in Joy After Sorrow, as Alan pointed out. I don't recall Beverly having anything to say about this. I doubt it was necessary. (By the way, Alan, I like what you say about tension and release, and how it fits in this figure when "down the outside and back" is followed by being reunited with your partner and going down the middle together. "Tension and release" is one of the standards against which I evaluate figures, and it certainly applies in this sequence.) But we've gone off on a bit of a tangent....What I described above I see as an affectation. Not so the figure in New Boe Peep, where one partner peeks around the other, or in Southern Squares, where one couple approaches a second couple, separates, and then "peeks" at each other behind the backs of that second couple. Silly maybe. Charming possibly, or at least naive. Here I would quote Alan, "all my own aesthetics, of course, and nobody has to agree with me." It would seem that none of us knows whether the figure continued in the repertoire from 1651 to the present, or whether it was part of the playful aspect of 17th c. dances, disappeared (like the Grand Square in Hunsdon House), and then reappeared sometime in, say, the 19th c. It probably wouldn't do, at this point then, to query whether "visiting couple" square dances represent a direct and continuous line from the longways progressive dances of the 17th c., the ones that were in three parts, with only the top couple starting.....Someday, when I have more time (!), I'll investigate these pressing questions.... Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 11:56 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Take a little peek Pat wrote: You're right about "Trip to Tunbridge." The original instructions, extremely brief that they are, do not say word one about taking a peek. I recall that Beverly Francis (sp? my apologies if wrong) taught this dance at the Amherst Assembly (to make a point about the A2 figure), and she did not even address the possibility that such an antic existed in this dance. I have been dancing Chorus Jig for years, most of those in the Washington, D.C., area, where Southern Squares once were quite popular, and taking a peek was never part of the dance. In the dances to which you refer, I assume you mean that the peeking occurs as the 1s dance down the outside -- at the point where they turn to dance back up, they sort of "hitch" and peek across at each other. Is that it? I say this because I do know callers who add "take a little peek" in other dances at just this place in the dance. Cute. I think I can hear the flinty, if not frosty, tone in which you say the word "Cute." So, yes, that is exactly what I mean. (Or part of it, anyway. Would it still be cute peeking if, say, both 1s turned in to face and made eye contact before heading back up?) Does Beverly (or anybody else) have anything to say about the attitude with which one goes down the outside by oneself and comes back? I must confess some slight difficulty in seeing the point of this figure, at least without checking in with your partner halfway through. (No problem with interesting paths taken by oneself; no problem with straightforward paths that have destinations different from the start. No problem going anyplace with partner, even if it's two steps up the middle and two more back down. But by yourself . . . well, I suppose the necessity to keep partner in peripheral vision so that you can maintain a symmetrical location, finally resulting in a reunion when you both get back home and set off down the middle together, results in a little bit of that tension and release you're supposed to get in, say, a gypsy meltdown - or, in my experience, _do_ get in the contra corners into balance and swing in Chorus Jig. But even in a gypsy meltdown, they don't usually make you wait more than four bars for it, and the down and back is eight bars. Seems kind of arbitrary, and it's a long way to go without interacting with anybody. Maybe this is why you don't see that much of this figure in recently-composed English dances.) This is quite different from, say, Joy After Sorrow, where W1 goes down the outside while M1 goes down the inside, and they can maintain eye contact all the way down. (With only one row of people in between you, this can work very well.) All my own aesthetics, of course, and nobody has to agree with me. -- Alan ============================================================================ === Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 ============================================================================ === ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 19:54:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 19:54:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSNTNI5OGO9BW58K-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy wrote: My feeling is that I have never found anyone who teaches gender-free without running into awkward moments when they stumble around trying to find a simple way to say something that would be perfectly understandable if they would just use the gender terms that are traditional to ECD and Contra. It doesn't matter to me which particular position I'm standing in, just use terms that make it understandable without stumbling around for five minutes because you don't want to offend someones sex. I have. Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly, of Ashland, call "geographically-based" English and Scottish, and they are among the best clear and concise callers I have encountered anywhere. (Chris, especially, is good at detecting when the right number of words for a concept is zero.) To get back to the thread title, they know when to say "first diagonals push" on a poussette. >One of basic differences that I have been very aware of between >the East Coast and the Northwest in both ECD and Contra is that >the dance communities are so new here that there is no sense of >the deep traditions that exist. Nobody here is really teaching >anything about traditions, maybe because many of those who are >teaching dances aren't fully aware of the traditions themselves. >A lot of other things in the West are too recent to have much >sense of tradition behind them. Do you have any idea how patronizing that sounds? You seem to be suggesting that the gender-free movement (which exists in the East, by the way; I've danced gender-free at NEFFA) is the result of nobody indoctrinating the poor newbies of the Northwest in the Right Way to do things. (I'm not from the Northwest, and I have never called a gender-free event, although I've learned a few techniques for clarity in calling from Chris and Brooke's geographically-based calling. I find gender-free acceptable but not preferable, as I've said before; I'd be sorry if that was the only ECD available. I'm not upset on my own behalf.) Consider the possibility that the people in this movement have arrived at their positions by careful consideration, have consulted their hearts and their minds and their sense of community, and that it is the right thing for them to do. You don't have to play if you don't want to, but I think we should all welcome anything that brings in more English dancers. How deep, seriously, is the ECD tradition in the East Coast? 90 years? Historically, the ECD revival, even in England, is the blink of an eye, and 'traditions' like gender-balancing events seem to be shorter than that, dating from the leadership of Douglas Kennedy. (Yes, I have been reading _The Imagined Village_.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 21:00:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 21:00:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Take a little peek To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000807040053.25645.qmail-AT- web2103.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Pat, > I remember something Helene Cornelius once said, about > folks "hopping" or "bounding" in to meet their partner in > the progressive figure of Nonesuch. Unfortunately, the hops often could be defined more accurately as "thuds." When Andy and I were relatively new dancers and living in Maryland, we danced with Barbara Harding in Herndon VA. I always liked the way she taught that figure: "balance in." It adds a fluidity and grace to what is all too often awkward-looking. --Lyrl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 21:24:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 21:24:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan, > Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly of Ashland [Oregon] call > "geographically-based" English and Scottish....they know > when to say "first diagonals push" on a poussette. I find the term "diagonals" used in place of "corners" to be extremely confusing. Formerly, "diagonals" seemed to be used to describe diagonal figures with people NOT your corner, i.e., in one of Fried Herman's "Choice Morsels" heys. I don't understand why "diagonals" is a better word than "corners," which as far as I can see has no gender bias. > How deep, seriously, is the ECD tradition in the East > Coast? 90 years? About that. Even dancing in Boston has changed in the 27 years I've lived here. I am aware of differences as close as New York City; we may dance XXX as interpreted by Jacqueline Schwab, while NYC does it as Christine Helwig saw it. I don't have to go to Portland OR to find variations on figures and style. Some of the variations are annoying, but most of them are okay. I can live with the annoying ones when I know I'll be back with the Boston Centre soon. One tends to like the familiar, but one also needs to remember that ECD is a living, growing entity. To be that, it of necessity must evolve. --Lyrl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 01:21:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 01:21:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSO58U2JW89BWLD1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lyrl quoted me: > Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly of Ashland [Oregon] call > "geographically-based" English and Scottish....they know > when to say "first diagonals push" on a poussette. and wrote: I find the term "diagonals" used in place of "corners" to be extremely confusing. Formerly, "diagonals" seemed to be used to describe diagonal figures with people NOT your corner, i.e., in one of Fried Herman's "Choice Morsels" heys. I don't understand why "diagonals" is a better word than "corners," which as far as I can see has no gender bias. Actually, you caught me in the one thing I _don't_ like about their calling vocabulary. They use 'diagonal' where I'm used to using 'corner' in a longways formation, and reserve 'corner' for something else, maybe corners in a square formation. They feel that this is clearer than overloading the word 'corner' (and it probably is if you start ab initio), not that there's any gender problem with 'corner'. (John Hertz, on the other hand, uses 'diagonal' in Regency dancing because 'corner' sounds too much like square dancing. I use 'corner' when calling Regency dances anyway.) One tends to like the familiar, but one also needs to remember that ECD is a living, growing entity. To be that, it of necessity must evolve. Amen. (I'll add that one part of evolution is speciation; things develop in different directions depending on local conditions. Barring RSCDS-style enforcement, that has inevitably happened to ECD, and will continue to.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 07:26:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:24:27 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Problems with MIME To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <200008071026_MC2-AEDD-B460-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks - in the past few ECD digests I involuntarily loaded down ca. 20 minutes worth of gobbledigook. At least ONE somebody uploaded files which require MIME being enabled..... my compuserve account cannot handle those! I request that IF you feel that there is some important file you want to share with the list - and I know, there are zillions to be found on the net - that you simply list the location where they can be found and leave it up to interested individuals to CHOOSE to download them in a separate transaction and not force all of us to deal with them? Pretty please? On another note: many of you know of my impending voyage to Tristan da Cunha. I am now firmly booked on a New Zealand fishing vessel which is scheduled to leave Cape Town (for its first trip to the island) on or about the 24th of September. I will return to these shores sometime in March. I expect to find no remnants of their traditional dances which were written about in one of the 1962 journals of the EFDSS, but then again.... Stay tuned. Hanny Budnick ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 08:56:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 11:55:58 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/0 8:18:18 PM, you wrote: <> There's a remarkable overlap. Zephyrs and Flora, Freeford Gardens, and Mount Hills spring to mind. There are too many others. Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:16:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 13:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/5/0 4:54:35 AM, you wrote: <> I always thought of this as a sign of a good tune. Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:05:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:05:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000808010541.24622.qmail-AT- web3304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Alan Winston wrote: > (I'll add that one part of evolution is speciation; things > develop in different directions depending on local conditions. > And on what the individual caller/teacher has learned. I've found that almost every caller is different, even within a local area. Some are better teachers than others. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 01:09:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 03:08:55 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008080808.DAA27890-AT- kang.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >--- Alan Winston wrote: >> (I'll add that one part of evolution is speciation; things >> develop in different directions depending on local conditions. > Andrew Peterson wrote: >And on what the individual caller/teacher has learned. I've >found that almost every caller is different, even within a local >area. Some are better teachers than others. Even if teachers are similar in ability, they have different prejudices about how they like the dancing to look, feel, execute. One teacher likes the poussette's to have push, another likes tug. Dancers, Somehow, learn to like what they're taught, hopefully execute it well, and, of course, speak with disdain about the incorrect way the other teacher teaches it. Just kidding, sort of. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 07:20:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 15:21:07 +0100 From: francis2 Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <007701c00143$e57599a0$268c183e-AT- oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> My advice to those who are unwilling to accept gender-oriented calls for poussettes, (or any other movement) is either to learn the dance by heart, so that the caller has only to say 'Pousette' or to take up a different hobby. and ignore us sexists! ----- Original Message ----- From: Lyrl Ahern To: Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 5:24 AM Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls > > > Alan, > > > Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly of Ashland [Oregon] > call > > "geographically-based" English and Scottish....they know > > when to say "first diagonals push" on a poussette. > > I find the term "diagonals" used in place of "corners" to > be extremely confusing. Formerly, "diagonals" seemed to be > used to describe diagonal figures with people NOT your > corner, i.e., in one of Fried Herman's "Choice Morsels" > heys. I don't understand why "diagonals" is a better word > than "corners," which as far as I can see has no gender > bias. > > > How deep, seriously, is the ECD tradition in the East > > Coast? 90 years? > > About that. Even dancing in Boston has changed in the 27 > years I've lived here. > I am aware of differences as close as New York City; we > may dance XXX as interpreted by Jacqueline Schwab, while > NYC does it as Christine Helwig saw it. I don't have to go > to Portland OR to find variations on figures and style. > Some of the variations are annoying, but most of them are > okay. I can live with the annoying ones when I know I'll be > back with the Boston Centre soon. > One tends to like the familiar, but one also needs to > remember that ECD is a living, growing entity. To be that, > it of necessity must evolve. > > --Lyrl > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com/ > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 08:11:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:18:40 -0400 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.1.20000808110101.016e0410-AT- popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> My understanding of the gender-free movement (folks involved in gender-free dances, please correct me) is that it grows out of the impulse to _include_ people in the dance, so that no one has to wait on the sidelines hoping to be asked to dance, but instead people can join the set as individuals, accepting whoever happened to be across the set from them as their partners. And if this desire to bring people into the dance means that some teachers wind up reworking our "traditional" language, even changing it in ways that may discomfit me, that's fine with me. Hugs for as many as will-- Sharon At 03:21 PM 8/8/00 +0100, francis2 wrote: >My advice to those who are unwilling to accept gender-oriented calls for >poussettes, (or any other movement) is either to learn the dance by heart, >so that the caller has only to say 'Pousette' or to take up a different >hobby. and ignore us sexists! >----- Original Message ----- >From: Lyrl Ahern >To: >Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 5:24 AM >Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls > > >> >> >> Alan, >> >> > Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly of Ashland [Oregon] >> call >> > "geographically-based" English and Scottish....they know >> > when to say "first diagonals push" on a poussette. >> >> I find the term "diagonals" used in place of "corners" to >> be extremely confusing. Formerly, "diagonals" seemed to be >> used to describe diagonal figures with people NOT your >> corner, i.e., in one of Fried Herman's "Choice Morsels" >> heys. I don't understand why "diagonals" is a better word >> than "corners," which as far as I can see has no gender >> bias. >> >> > How deep, seriously, is the ECD tradition in the East >> > Coast? 90 years? >> >> About that. Even dancing in Boston has changed in the 27 >> years I've lived here. >> I am aware of differences as close as New York City; we >> may dance XXX as interpreted by Jacqueline Schwab, while >> NYC does it as Christine Helwig saw it. I don't have to go >> to Portland OR to find variations on figures and style. >> Some of the variations are annoying, but most of them are >> okay. I can live with the annoying ones when I know I'll be >> back with the Boston Centre soon. >> One tends to like the familiar, but one also needs to >> remember that ECD is a living, growing entity. To be that, >> it of necessity must evolve. >> >> --Lyrl >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. >> http://invites.yahoo.com/ >> > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:07:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:14:28 -0700 From: paul/victoria bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000808131428.00805850-AT- oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, I seem to have started something, so I'd like to jump back in and clarify a few points. Andy seems to have assumed that the reason to use geographically-based calling is for gay people. While the gender-free community in Oregon was started by gay people, my experience has been that gays are much more comfortable being called by the opposite gender term than straights are. Its using the term for the non-biological role that they identify with. One year when I was calling squares for young teenagers (who prefer dancing with same-sex partners) I phoned a gay square dancer I knew and asked what his all-male group did about the traditional patter calls. "Nothing," he said. "We don't mind being called ladies." But Asian males in my beginning high school class did. It was terribly insulting to call a 17 year old Korean youth "lady one." And middle school girls dancing the boys part were teased by the boys, and became horribly embarassed and wouldn't dance on the left of their partner any more, even though at that age they prefer dancing with same sex partners. They were just coming into puperty and trying to figure out what being a guy or girl really meant. But even though at that age they were allergic to boys, they'd rather dance with guys than be called guys. Calling them "ones and twos" meant they could dance Gathering Peascods with same sex-partners without challenges to their sexuality. It was for my students that I first started exploring gender-neutral language. At present, and for the forseeable future, Seattle dances with gender-based lines. But we have pairs of same sex couples-- maybe 10% of the dance floor. Most of these are women, because they'd rather dance than sit out, and there are usually more women than men at dances. (Already we are different from the traditional, as Nicolas calls it, because in 1651, women did not ask men to dance and they sat out if they weren't asked.) We also have occasional pairs of men. Sometimes its because everyone is dancing when two single guys walk in late. They will usually dance together rather than sit out. Sometimes when there are many extra women, the women don't wait to see if they are rejected by the guys, and assuming they won't have male partners, they ask each other to dance. If enough do it, there are guys left over, and they dance together. I noticed that Nicolas asked his wife if she was comfortable being called a man when she is dancing on the left side of the set. He didn't tell us how comfortable he was with being called a woman. I've watched guys dancing the right-side part become extremely embarassed when someone, confused, calls to them "Which of you is the woman?" One of the two (married, straight) very embarassed, covered his discomfort by making a joke of it, batting his eyelashes prettily at the questioner, who also became extremely embarassed. So keeping straight people comfortable when they are dancing on the non-traditional side of the set is one reason to use gender-neutral language. I don't lose my femininity when I dance on the other side of the set. I don't dance with a different style, as I would if dancing the male part in a Hungarian dance. There are even dances which can be done proper or improper and it doesn't matter (Childgrove eg). We do all the same figures with opposite sex or same sex neighbors and nobody changes gender to do it. Another reason for geometrically based calls is that those dancing the non-traditional role become less confused. I've done enough improper dances (mostly contras) that dancing as lady one on the left side of the set feels normal. I tend to ignore cues to Man One, even when I'm dancing that position, and go on thinking I'm Lady One in an improper dance. However first corners are first corners no matter what sex is dancing that position. I'd respond to that automatically without having to think what role I am. And Andy, I don't find "first corners" a particularly difficult or convoluted term for "first man and second woman. In fact, most of the geometrically based calls take FEWER words and are MORE clear. Compare "poussette clockwise (two words) telling all four people what to do, to "Poussette, first man push, second man pull" which tells only two people what to do, takes 7 words, and changes rules at the ends of the set (the rule was push, now its pull. But clockwise is still clockwise) Or take a geometrically based call we are all used to like "rights and lefts." How much more difficult it becomes if we have to say "first man pull by the right and turn right, while second man pull by the right and turn left." Many more words. Tells only two people what to do. Makes two different rules that have to be reversed at the ends of the set. "Rights and lefts" is easier. So is "Pousette clockwise" for the same reason. OK, with that out of the way, I have another problem with "first man push, second man pull". I object to callers talking to the men as though the women were inanimate objects to be pushed and pulled around by their partners. I don't like "first man turn the second woman by the right" because not only does it take 3 more words than "first corners turn by the right"-- it isn't what we actually want people to do. It implies that women cannot hear or comprehend the calls, so none are addressed to them. In fact it leaves them trying to figure out their part by subtraction. In a poussette, if the "man one pushes" lady one has to think "I'm the partner of man one, if he pushes, I must move back". However in Duke of Kent's Waltz, when the caller (3 male callers still call the last figure this way) says "men turn the woman on your right diagonal." The women (and one of the male callers) think they should turn left. Wrong. Everybody turns on the right diagonal. Why not say so and avoid the confusion? The call "man one turn lady two by the right" is exactly what we don't want people to do. It imnplies that the woman doesn't participate equally, and the man must TURN her, move her, apply more force. In fact, both people should give equal weight. We have a new female dancer in our community who is responding beautifully to these subliminal messages, giving no weight, allowing herself to be moved around, paying no attention to the caller since he never talks to her. She is always late, limp, the ideal passive partner from the Playford Period. Time to join the 21st century. At Pinewoods a few years ago a caller told the active man to two hand turn. And recently a local caller told the active man to do a back to back. The same caller teaches dances like Mr Isaac's where first man one and then lady one does something with their corners as "Man one turn lady two", and "Man two turn lady one." The active woman is relegated to a passive role. To me this is not only unclear but insulting to the women, who are invisible to the caller. Its very like having only white faces in the texbooks. Its an assumption of inferiority and second-class citizenship. I want my caller to talk to me, not just to my partner. You can tell I've been thinking about these issues for a while. Last spring I did an experiment. I called an entire evening without a single reference to gender. And contrary to Andy's expectations, of awkward terminology sticking out like sore thumbs, NOBODY NOTICED! Everyone knew what to do all the time. People danced on the traditional side of the set, even though I didnt' tell them to, and there were the usual scattering of same-sex couples. But I noticed that for one particular figure, which is basically a handy hand alamand, there were FEWER mistakes than there are when I call the dance using gender-based terms. I think its because I had to come up with a single rule that fit all four people, instead of separate rules (Man one and lady two turn by the right while lady one and man two turn by the left). I'd like callers on the list, male callers in particular, to think about the subliminal messages to the community when they ignore women in their calling, or treat them as objects to be turned or led by the men. I'd like them to think about the clarity of fewer words talking to more people in the set in the geometricaly based calls. Even the communities like ours which still have gender-based lines, its a positive step to remove unnecessary references to gender in the calling. Victoria Bestock Check out our WEB site, at http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/ Read about our trip to the Rockies..... See the portfolio from Northwest New Year's Camp..... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:39:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 16:39:35 -0400 From: "Albert A. Blank" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39907007.36B71442-AT- sprintmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20000808131428.00805850-AT- oz.net> Dear Victoria, I fully agree with your views on geometrically based calling. Even so, it's remarkable how our biases bend us. I always thought callers addressed their instructions to the men because, when it comes to dance, men are idiots. Warmest regards, Albert paul/victoria bestock wrote (in part): > OK, with that out of the way, I have another problem with "first man push, > second man pull". I object to callers talking to the men as though the > women were inanimate objects to be pushed and pulled around by their > partners. I don't like "first man turn the second woman by the right" > because not only does it take 3 more words than "first corners turn by the > right"-- it isn't what we actually want people to do. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:59:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:58:23 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20000808131428.00805850-AT- oz.net> Oh Albert, You're so graceful! I too, have never comprehended the necessity for moving away from the term "corner". And I too am sensitive to callers whose presentation smacks of the objectification of the lady. Despite the heterosexuality of the culture from which our earliest dances came, at least as much as most of us know about that culture, English Country Dancing, as done in the US, cannot be done without equality across the board. Anyone who has watched a new dancer dutifully follow his/her partner through a dance, never understanding that s/he has his/her own part and must be independent, knows the truth of my statement. So of course, turns are cooperative efforts, that's the reason spaghetti arms don't work. And, on the other side, that's the reason "man-handling" doesn't work either. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:42:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:42:11 -0400 (EDT) From: ACFerg-AT- cs.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Wow! Victoria, it's a delight to see something so thoughtfully and beautifully written. Thanks! Arthur Ferguson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:11:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:26:53 -0700 From: Mary Luckhardt Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free To: ECD List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To take off on only a snippet of Victoria's discourse (with which I am in basic agreement): On 8/8/00 1:14 PM paul/victoria bestock said: > I don't lose my femininity when I dance on the other side of the >set. I don't dance with a different style, as I would if dancing the male >part in a Hungarian dance. I do. When I dance on the men's side I square up my shoulders, puff out my chest and put on my mental tail coat, generally getting into my "boy persona," especially as I'm standing there waiting for the walk through. I find that keeping that slightly different posture and attitude helps me remember as I dance down the set that "home" is not where it usually is, that my hands should go out palm up, and that I should leave my partner on the right if there's a swing(!). And at the end, I bow from the waist, instead of dropping into a curtsy. For me it's a mnemonic, and I find I make very few gender-related mistakes since I started consciously becoming a gentleman when dancing the men's role. Mary Luckhardt ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 07:24:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 10:24:02 -0400 From: Lou Vosteen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ><> > >There's a remarkable overlap. Zephyrs and Flora, Freeford Gardens, and Mount >Hills spring to mind. There are too many others. > >Carl Friedman Some of these so called dippy tunes/dances are useful for teaching purposes. Zephyrs and Flora, for example, has half figure eights for both the ones and the twos, so it doesn't matter where you start in the set, everyone can learn a half figure eight. The dance group where I usually teach is frequently visited by total novices and it's a challenge to come up with simple dances the novices can do - often on the spur of the moment since I never know who's going to show up - without boring the regular dancers out of their gourd. I try to keep a big stock of simple dances on hand to provide some variety to the regulars and still allow the new people to participate. So maybe these dances are dippy to the jaded pros, but they bring enjoyment to many who suddenly discover they can dance. Lou ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 07:29:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 09:05:09 -0400 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <001201c00202$73935740$d7e07ad1-AT- oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000807042454.23875.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20000808131428.00805850-AT- oz.net> > So keeping straight people comfortable when they are dancing on the > non-traditional side of the set is one reason to use gender-neutral > language. > > Another reason for geometrically based calls is that those dancing the > non-traditional role become less confused. > > In fact, most of the geometrically based calls take FEWER words and are > MORE clear. Compare "poussette clockwise (two words) telling all four > people what to do, to "Poussette, first man push, second man pull" which > tells only two people what to do, takes 7 words, and changes rules at the > ends of the set (the rule was push, now its pull. But clockwise is still > clockwise) > > OK, with that out of the way, I have another problem with "first man push, > second man pull". I object to callers talking to the men as though the > women were inanimate objects to be pushed and pulled around by their > partners. > > The call "man one turn lady two by the right" is exactly what we don't > want people to do. It imnplies that the woman doesn't participate equally, > and the man must TURN her, move her, apply more force. > I'd like callers on the list, male callers in particular, to think about > the subliminal messages to the community when they ignore women in their > calling, or treat them as objects to be turned or led by the men. I'd like > them to think about the clarity of fewer words talking to more people in > the set in the geometricaly based calls. Even the communities like ours > which still have gender-based lines, its a positive step to remove > unnecessary references to gender in the calling. > I agree and disagree. At different times this list has discussed the need for dance leaders to use calls that clearly communicate to all the dancers. We've had discussion about the fact that different dancers have different learning styles, and that some calls may not register quickly with certain dancers, while an alternative call may not register with others. Victoria, Gene and others have advocated that for at least SOME moves, giving two descriptions that describe the move in different ways can be an efficient way to communicate the move to everybody, despite the fact that doing so may use twice or three times as many words. I suppose the art of a great caller is to be able to do the calculus instinctively and just know when more words just get in the way, and when they are truly helpful to resolve uncertainty and relieve some dancers of the slight hesitation as they translate a single call into their own terms. I say this in part because I seem to remember a thread in which we discussed the fact (or opinion) that some geometric calls simply do not register with at least some people. But even if we haven't had that thread so far, I'll acknowledge that I don't quickly relate to geometric calls that describe the track I am following. Every time I hear clockwise poussette I first think of a clock face as perpendicular to the floor, then rotate it so it is parallel to the floor, then identify whether I'm at 1:30 or at 7:30, then move in the appropriate direction. I'm not hopeless, and I AM learning, but slowly. I'd say the first 20-30 times I heard a clockwise call, I was just baffled and figured out which way to move from the other dancers. The call by itself did not communicate to me. As silly as the four-step translation above may seem, I actually do it still, unless clockwise is accompanied by a companion call about who goes forward. The other geometric call I have trouble with is when a hey for three along the line is described as a figure eight track. (Even worse is the hey for two couples across the set described the same way, because it's really a figure 8 with an extra loop on top, or bottom.) If that is the ONLY call given, it is not communicative to me, so I do the only thing I can and ignore the call, figuring out from the other dancers in the line where to move, assuming they haven't had the same problem. So I have no problem at all with someone adding the geometric call to one of these two figures, but if the point is to make it the ONLY call for that move, I disagree because it does not communicate to me. Dance leaders are subject to a sometimes dizzying array of objectives. Communicate clearly. Use the fewest possible words to do so. Convey a sense of enjoyment. Encourage people positively. Teach moves and style, preferably subtly. Get people actually dancing. And no doubt half a dozen others that don't come to me now. Avoiding making straight people uncomfortable awhen they dance the role of the opposite gender is another, perfectly ligitimate objective. But I suggest that it should have a lower priority than the others I just listed. My observation is that it is generally the more experienced dancer of the two who will assume the opposite gender role, and that is usually the person more accustomed to the dance conventions. So I imagine that the level of embarassment that such a person will suffer if referred to as the second person of the opposite gender is relatively mild and transitory. There is no reason not to avoid such traces of embarassment when one can do so without violating the first canon, communicate clearly. But if the SOLE call is counterclockwise poussette, I think that avoiding a smidgen of embarassment has been elevated to first priority in the dance leader's ranking, and I think this is wrong. Victoria's last point (about not treating women as inanimate objects) is also a legitimate objective. But to address it in a poussette by referring SOLELY to the geometric pattern is, to my mind, also wrong, for the reasons I've already indicated. In a sense it seems to me that this is an entirely different topic, especially because it is possible to give a movement-based call for a poussette that is not based on gender: 1st man & 2nd woman forward in a clockwise poussette. Perhaps someone will carve this subject off into a separate thread. Victoria's penultimate point (about using as few words as possible) is also a legitimate objective. Having lead a small number of dances myself on open mic nights, I know full well how hard it is to do (as do the dancers who've been subjected to me). I've also done more than my share of grousing about dance leaders who occasionally stumble into verbal clutter. Yet it can be overdone, which is a different issue with this objective that is less frequently identified. It is possible to be so terse in one's calls (or is it in the manner of delivery?) that one does not communicate. I have in mind here not so much the point I made above, that clockwise poussette just doesn't work well for me, the way my brain happens to be wired, as I do the fact that sometimes a call that is perfectly clear if you think about it leads to confusion on the dance floor precisely because it requires everyone to think about it. In a more perfect world, all dancers would have a restful 3-4 hours, and perhaps even a nap, before coming to a dance. They would have been coming to every regular dance in the area for the past six months so they are all in dancing shape and non-rusty. And they would be so attentive to the dancing that they eagerly digest minimalist calls and comprehend immediately where to move. Alas, sometimes it doesn't work that way. Sometimes I get tired, or my attention momentarily drifts. Ooops! What was that call? Has anyone else ever had this experience? Does this, too, deserve carving off into a separate thread? Sometimes dancers are just human. I feel a touch awkward about using Victoria's posting as the basis for my reply and disagreement because I always find her postings (including this one) to be intelligent and thoughtful, and often to raise points that no one else does. As, for example, the point about how gender-free terms can be especially important for barely pubescent children. But in this case, I just disagree in part with some of what you've said, Victoria, and I thought that explaining why would contribute to the discussion. As a final note, I agree with someone earlier on this thread who said they avoid push and pull, and use forward and back instead to reduce the spaghetti-arms risk that those who move backwards will be so passive that they find their partners's hands close to the vicinity of their armpits. Told you it was difficult for me to use as few words as possible. Mike O'Connor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 09:54:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:53:43 +0000 From: Phil D'Agostino Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20000809115343.3c8fe06e-AT- mum.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lou, I totally agree on this point. New people appear at our dances regularly. Suddenly the more complicated dances you were going to do have to be tossed, if you want these people to have a good first experience and come back.. I invented a kind of category system for all the dances which includes which figures are included, how many figures, slow of faster tempo, etc. That way, I can glance at the list and choose a variety of "tutorial" dances as needed. Phil At 10:24 AM 08/09/2000 -0400, you wrote: > > >><> >> >>There's a remarkable overlap. Zephyrs and Flora, Freeford Gardens, and Mount >>Hills spring to mind. There are too many others. >> >>Carl Friedman > >Some of these so called dippy tunes/dances are useful for teaching >purposes. Zephyrs and Flora, for example, has half figure eights for both >the ones and the twos, so it doesn't matter where you start in the set, >everyone can learn a half figure eight. The dance group where I usually >teach is frequently visited by total novices and it's a challenge to come >up with simple dances the novices can do - often on the spur of the moment >since I never know who's going to show up - without boring the regular >dancers out of their gourd. I try to keep a big stock of simple dances on >hand to provide some variety to the regulars and still allow the new people >to participate. So maybe these dances are dippy to the jaded pros, but they >bring enjoyment to many who suddenly discover they can dance. > >Lou > > > > > Phil D'Agostino Systems Engineering-Dept. of Communcations Maharishi University of Management Fairfield, Iowa 52557 641-472-7000 x2001 641-472-1137(Fax) 641-472-1228 Box 1000 (voice Mail) phild-AT- mum.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:20:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:17:38 -0700 From: "Gary D. Shapiro" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD database just for moi To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My personal collection of dances is growing, and the time has come to start putting them into a local database, rather than a bunch of individual files created by various programs. So far I've just barely created a FileMaker Pro database. It's all very "under construction" at this point and it occurs to me I may be reinventing the wheel. Anyone care to share a database design? -- "Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies Gary Shapiro ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:04:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:03:57 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD database just for moi To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My database is in Hypercard, because it's the only one I know of that allows you to use different fonts in a field, and I like to use symbols for common movements. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:21:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:21:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD database just for moi To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSTOFL14F69FN49M-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gary -- I've been pretty happy keeping dances as ASCII files and then doing free text searches when I'm looking for particular things. What fields you need depend on what kind of retrieval you'll be doing. Some obvious stuff: Formation (longways duple minor, longways triple minor, two-couple set, etc.) Tune in Barnes: (y/n) Date: Author or source: (Gary Roodman, Walsh, etc.) Where I got it: Directions: Notes: Meter: Key: Tempo: Any special steps: Keywords So if you figure what you need second to last before the break is a circle formation rant dance in D, you can find it, and when you find it the notes can remind you that the last you called this one, the dancers beat you severely about the head and shoulders. Hope this helps, -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 03:34:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:38:56 -0300 From: lydia.hedge-AT- ns.sympatico.ca (Lydia Hedge) Subject: Re: ECD database just for moi To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <20000811103400.AAA11202%jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca-AT- oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > ... it occurs to me I may be reinventing the wheel. Anyone care to > share a database design? Gary, There is a massive and complex (I imagine) database in existence for SCDs. Perhaps you could get a copy of the structure and put in ECD data. It is administered by Alan Paterson - alanp-AT- paranor.ch Took several years and many people's hard work to create and is WONderful to use. Lydia Hedge ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 05:17:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 05:17:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free Poussette calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000811121707.22081.qmail-AT- web2105.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Michael J. O'Connor" wrote: (In response to Vicky Bestock's long and wonderful posting) > We've had discussion about the fact that different dancers > have different learning styles, and that some calls may > not register quickly with certain dancers, while an > alternative call may not register with others. One of the signs of a good caller is that s/he has more than one way to explain a figure. If a fairly large number of the people on the floor are confused by the way you have called a figure, it behooves you to tell them how to do it in another way--you don't just repeat what hasn't worked before. > I seem to remember a thread in which we discussed the fact > (or opinion) that some geometric calls simply do not > register with at least some people. ...or they use terms that to me mean something different. > The other geometric call I have trouble with is when a hey > for three along the line is described as a figure eight > track. To add to the confusion, there is already a figure called "figure eight," in which two of the participants are posts (unless it's a double fig. 8). Whenever I hear someone describe a hey as a figure eight track on the floor, I can hear from the back of my brain Genny Shimer saying with great emphasis, "You are NOT dancing a track on the floor; you are CHANGING PLACES with *PEOPLE*!!" > Avoiding making straight people uncomfortable awhen they > dance the role of the opposite gender is another, > perfectly legitimate objective But I suggest that it > should have a lower priority than the others I just > listed. I imagine that the level of embarassment that such > a person will suffer if referred to as the second person > of the opposite gender is relatively mild and transitory. This seems to be an assumption made by some callers, but is this really true? I don't feel uncomfortable dancing the man's role--unless it's one of the "automatic pilot" dances that I do without much thought, 'cause then I have to have my brain in gear. Do some of you feel funny when you end up dancing the other gender role? > Told you it was difficult for me to use as few words > as possible. That's okay, Mike. It's interesting to hear how your brain is wired and to be reminded about how different we are one from another. Isn't it wonderful? --Lyrl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:26:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:29:17 -0400 From: Michael S Franch Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Poor Cecil's Poussett To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000811.133055.-5309.1.franch-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What a wonderful list you are! We manage to hold at one time the two seemingly opposing thoughts that "dance is a mirror of society" and "dance is about dance." In the last few weeks we've had a rich braid woven of separate threads: poussetting (both spelling and calling), a Nazi folk dancer, Henry Ford's view of America, and our own late 20th-early 21st century cultural critique--much of which I agreed with, but much of which reminded me how we give moral value to our own cultural preferences. We went on to what I thought was a piece with both serious dance and ethical content, Victoria Bestock's discussion of calling and gender awareness. A fine discussion, all of this, and one which reaffirmed the value of a book noted by Stephanie Smith months ago (and Alan recently): Georgina Boyes The Imagined Village: Culture, Ideology and the English Folk Revival, in the Manchester University Press series Music and Society. I bought it at the CDSS bookstore in Buffalo Gap, so I suppose it might be available by mail order from them. It's worth the $32.50. To pick up on one loose thread, not particularly germane to ECD but raised by others, that of teaching African American history, the subject or an aside in a couple of postings. I don't think you can understand American history without knowing about the experience of people of African descent in this country. It's important for African Americans to know this history, but it's probably more important for those of us who aren't African Americans to know it. These are large statements that shouldn't be expanded on this list, but I'd be glad to discuss privately if anyone wants. Mike Franch ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:12:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:11:46 +0000 From: Phil D'Agostino Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD database just for moi To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20000811151146.3e2f4f74-AT- mum.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 07:17 PM 08/10/2000 -0700, you wrote: >My personal collection of dances is growing, and the time has come to >start putting them into a local database, rather than a bunch of >individual files created by various programs. > >So far I've just barely created a FileMaker Pro database. It's all >very "under construction" at this point and it occurs to me I may be >reinventing the wheel. Anyone care to share a database design? >-- >"Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies >Gary Shapiro > *** Gary, Funny, I felt the need for that also, several months ago... I use a DOS-based DBMS called Alpha 4. This is the structure of "english.dbf": (which we use to keep track of recordings of each dance) fields: 1.DANCE_NAME Name of the dance 2.DANCE_CREAT Choreographer of the dance 3.DANCE_TYPE What type of dance: I use a 3-character code for quick reference: 1st char = C,D,2,3,4,T (Circle,Duple Minor, 2-couple set,3 cu set, 4 cu set,Triple Minor) 2nd char = E,I,A (Easy, Intermediate, Advanced) 3rd char = S,M,F (Slower, Medium, Faster Tempo) e.g. DEF = Duple Minor, Easy, Fast tempo. 4. DANCE_SRC Source of the Dance instructions e.g. PB (playford ball). I use the abbreviations Peter Barnes uses in the appendix of the "Barnes Book". 5. MUSIC_SRC Where to find the sheet music: generally "BB" (Barnes Book), "INC" (included with dance) or whatever. 6. DANCE_RECG Where to find the recording we own of this dance. If we own more than one, it's listed as a separate record in the database. Here I invented a code for the recording, too. 3 sections to the code. 1. D,C,or L to indicate a CD, a Cassette, or an LP record. 2. An abbreviation of the performers, or the band that made the recording e.g. "AP" for Assembly Players. 3. An Abbreviation for the name of the recording. e.g. PFNW, for "Playford From (the) New World". 6. MEMO This is (right now, at least) a catch-all for comments ("this recording is no good!", "really popular" etc.). I thought I would add a field in the future, outlining (in an abbrev'd code) the figures that were contained in the dance - in case I was using the dance to tutor beginners in certain figures. I thought this plus the *number* of figures in the dance could be used to convey its level of difficulty (Expected Magnitude of the Teaching Challenge, as Gary Roodman says)...anyway, some ideas. This database has been handy, since we often use recordings at our dances, and this is a quick way to look them up, and choose the appropriate dance to do, depending on how many newbies are there that evening.. I use two methods to print it out: 1. As a columnar text file. 2. I import it into an Excel spreadsheet - makes for prettier printing - nicely formatted within boxes. Your needs might not be the same as ours. Hope this gives you some ideas. Phil P.s. are you the Oboist from Ames, Iowa I met last November at the Bare Necessities weekend musician's workshop? Phil D'Agostino Systems Engineering-Dept. of Communcations Maharishi University of Management Fairfield, Iowa 52557 641-472-7000 x2001 641-472-1137(Fax) 641-472-1228 Box 1000 (voice Mail) phild-AT- mum.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:10:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:04:38 -0400 From: Ridge Kennedy Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Larry Jennings Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <024101c00480$1b806c20$c9026b8d-AT- mcgonagall> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <200008012016.PAA02765-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> Just as an FYI, in a fairly recent post, the following was said by Roger Diggle: > Oooops... > I had it in my head wrong... > it *is* "Becket", named for Becket, Massachusets, > according to the notes in "Zesty Contras". > I also see from those notes that the sequence > is in CDM6 as "Bucksaw Reel". I have to confess > that I wish we called it Bucksaw formation rather > than Becket. I was told by prolific contra > choreographer Al Olson that Larry Jennings is > responsible for naming Becket formation. I'm > inclined to believe it, since I've seen the name > in no source material older than Zesty Contras. I put the question to Larry and he said: I can, however, try to devine your question and give you some kind of answer. I take the question to be, "What is the origin of the use 'Becket formation'?". And do I have anu comment as to whether "Bucksaw formation" would be better? As a collaborator on my book, Al Olson suggested the use of "Becket formation" I concurred that it was a good idea, but Al actually drafted the definition in my glossary. I don't remember how much I edited his draft. The title "Bucksaw Reel" appears in the club dance circuit for a minor variant. I don't know the motivation for making this trivial change. By context, I feel that some callers, Dave Kaynor for example, considered "bucksaw" to be the name of a figure, namely right and left on the diagonal and then right and left across. Because I felt that the use of any other term than "Becket" failed to give proper credit to Herbie Gaudreau, I have not and do not want to consider giving credit elsewhere than to Herbie. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:31:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:33:29 -0400 From: Marge Cramton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Bare Necessities headlines dance weekend 9/29-10/1 in Ann Arbor To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000813183033.0098d9d0-AT- mailhub.logiclink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_EI4xT02tf6DsVFZaLBObhw)" --Boundary_(ID_EI4xT02tf6DsVFZaLBObhw) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Fudge Fall dance weekend September 29 October 1, 2000 Ann Arbor, Michigan Pittsfield Grange Featuring: Bare Necessities Helene Cornelius The Rude Mechanicals (Dave Orlin, Debbie Jackson, Brad Battey) Joseph Pimentel English country dancing Contra dancing Scottish dancing Couple dancing Send email to marge-AT- logiclink.com for an email flyer, or call 734-665-7704 or 734-747-8138. Advance registration is recommended but we'll welcome walk-ins up to the capacity of the hall. The Grange has a wonderful dance floor and sound quality, and provides an intimate space for great dancing. FUDGE (Folk Union Dance Gallery Etcetera) is an all-volunteer organization dedicated to sponsoring one-of-a-kind music and dance events in the Ann Arbor dance community, such as this FUDGE Bare Necessities Weekend and the 20th Anniversary Ann Arbor Dawn Dance Weekend, February 23-25, 2001. For more information about any FUDGE events, call 734-665-7704 or 734-747-8138. --Boundary_(ID_EI4xT02tf6DsVFZaLBObhw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
Fudge Fall dance weekend
September 29  October 1, 2000
Ann Arbor, Michigan Pittsfield Grange

Featuring:

Bare Necessities
Helene Cornelius
The Rude Mechanicals (Dave Orlin, Debbie Jackson, Brad Battey)
Joseph Pimentel

English country dancing
Contra dancing
Scottish dancing
Couple dancing

Send email to marge-AT- logiclink.com for an email flyer, or call 734-665-7704 or 734-747-8138.
Advance registration is recommended but we’ll welcome walk-ins up to the capacity of the hall.  The Grange has a wonderful dance floor and sound quality, and provides an intimate space for great dancing.

FUDGE (Folk Union Dance Gallery Etcetera) is an all-volunteer organization dedicated to sponsoring one-of-a-kind music and dance events in the Ann Arbor dance community, such as this FUDGE Bare Necessities Weekend and the 20th Anniversary Ann Arbor Dawn Dance Weekend, February 23-25, 2001. For more information about any FUDGE events, call 734-665-7704 or 734-747-8138.
--Boundary_(ID_EI4xT02tf6DsVFZaLBObhw)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 06:45:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:14:41 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sue Dupre & Amarilis in Pittsburgh PA weekend 9/29-10/1 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000814.101450.-458961.3.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT An English - Contra dance Weekend ! September 29 - October 1, 2000 Pittsburgh PA (USA) with caller Sue Dupre and Amarillis (Maro Avakian, piano; Donna Isaac, fiddle; AllisonThompson, concertina) Friday night (Sept 29): Contra dance, 8-11 pm Saturday (Sept 30): English Country Dance Workshop, 1-4 pm Saturday (Sept 30): English Dance Party, 8-11 pm Sunday, Oct 1: Advanced English Workshop, 1-4 pm Prices: Contra dance $7/person; individual English dance events, $10/person. Advance discount price for all 4 events, $35/person, payable by Sept 15. Housing, maps, etc., all available. Contact: Ralph Bangs CDSS of Pittsburgh 1623 Denniston Street Pittsburgh PA 15217 (412) 422-7265 rbangs-AT- vms.cis.pitt.edu ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:58:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:06:38 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: English Dance Workshop To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39994E6E.9B0982E2-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: FLORA J JOSEPHS wrote: > We will be having an afternoon workshop/dance at the Whately Dance Barn in > Whately, Mass, designed specifically for callers and creators of English > Country dances: Creators can try out their new dances; callers can gain > experience by calling particularly hard dances; participants can try > calling for the first time; and dancers can be challenged by all of the > above -- all in the spirit of learning and having fun. Callers will be > asked to donate a minimal fee for calling each dance, and dancers, as > guinea pigs, will also be asked to make a small donation. All proceeds > will go toward paying the musicians. Orly Krasner & Victor Skowronski are > committed and involved in the organization of this event. Anyone wishing > to call a dance should contact Richard (see below for address and phone > information). Make a full day of it and join the 3rd Saturday English > dance in the evening at Munson Library in South Amherst. We will have a > potluck meal after the workshop. If you don't come to the workshop but > plan to come to the Saturday dance, please feel free to join us at the > meal. > > TIME: 2:30 PM > DATE: Sat, Sept 16 > PLACE: Whately Dance Barn, Whately MA > DIRECTIONS: See http://www.amherst.edu/~fjjoseph/ or contact Richard: > COST: $2:00 to get in, $2:00 per dance if you call. > > If you have a new dance, we need music in advance. Contact Richard at > (413) 665-0484 > or FJJoseph-AT- Amherst.unix.edu; I will be out of twon July 31 to Aug 15. Will be coming to the workshop in Whately as well as the dance in South Amherst. Plan on introducing a new dance: "My Pet Hey", danced to the music of Nonesuch II (believe it is by Pat Shaw). It is a duple minor, improper, longways. If you need more information on the music please let me know. Suggest eight to ten times through (depending on numbers present). If time allows could also call Lover's Knot (music is Trip to Kilburn) and/or Step Stately. Ben Stein 511 North Street Burlington, Vt. 05401 dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:20:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:19:55 -0700 From: "Gary D. Shapiro" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Since I can't get the tune for Freeford Gardens out of my head, I'd at least like to know how the dance goes. According to the liner notes in the English Country Dance Collection Volume 3, the sheet of instructions "has been widely duplicated and circulated in the States." Well, not wide enough. Sounds like public domain to me yet Alta Vista only found the music and a UK musician who lives at a Freeford Gardens address. If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. -- "Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies Gary Shapiro ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:38:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:38:33 -0700 From: South Bay English Country Dance Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.32.20000816013833.009437ec-AT- pop.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 06:19 PM 8/15/00 -0700, you wrote: .... >If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily >Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. > In that case, I will yield to higher authorities and refrain from posting the dance instructions at this time. :-)). Giovanni De Amici ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:59:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JT0CO7TQTY9FMD1W-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gary wrote: Since I can't get the tune for Freeford Gardens out of my head, I'd at least like to know how the dance goes. According to the liner notes in the English Country Dance Collection Volume 3, the sheet of instructions "has been widely duplicated and circulated in the States." Well, not wide enough. Sounds like public domain to me yet Alta Vista only found the music and a UK musician who lives at a Freeford Gardens address. If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. Well, since you ask: Gotta use GOOGLE, boy. Google reveals that's it up on the 1999 BACDS Playford Ball website, accessible via http://timelord01.home.sprynet.com/playford/dances.htm#Freeford Gardens The dance is credited to Kathryn and David Wright, c. 1980. I know the 2000 Playford Ball got permission from all living authors of dances on the program to put their dances up, so I presume the 1999 one did, but I don't have permission to post the instructions here, so I won't. The URL above should be sufficient. (google also shows a couple of sites for the tune in abc format.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:06:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:14:02 -0400 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.1.20000815215824.00ba7310-AT- popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 06:19 PM 8/15/00 -0700, Gary D. Shapiro wrote: >Sounds like public domain to me yet Alta Vista only found the music >and a UK musician who lives at a Freeford Gardens address. > >If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily >Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. I'll bite... Not public domain. Choreography by David & Kathryn Wright of Lichfield (lovely people), directions published both as a single sheet and in Bert Eccles' compilation Not Quite Playford. You might check out Cotswold Music's website and see whether the book's still available. That's too cool about Google, Alan--I feel like checking out bunches of dance titles. But I'd better get back to the mailing party... Hugs, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:34:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:31:33 -0700 From: "Gary D. Shapiro" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Who to ask? (was: Freeford Gardens) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 6:38 PM -0700, on 8/15/00, South Bay English Country Dance wrote: >In that case, I will yield to higher authorities and refrain from posting >the dance instructions at this time. :-)). >Giovanni De Amici I just thought I'd avoid getting twenty answers, or *none*, everyone thinking someone else will answer. Maybe we need a system for questions that many have the answer to. I usually just ask Alan directly, but that seems a bit unfair, although he's never complained. -- "Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies Gary Shapiro -- "Come dancing, it's only natural." -- Ray Davies Gary Shapiro ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:26:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:26:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Who to ask? (was: Freeford Gardens) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JT0LX14RAQ9FOSTM-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gary wrote: >>In that case, I will yield to higher authorities and refrain from posting >>the dance instructions at this time. :-)). >>Giovanni De Amici >I just thought I'd avoid getting twenty answers, or *none*, everyone >thinking someone else will answer. Maybe we need a system for >questions that many have the answer to. I usually just ask Alan >directly, but that seems a bit unfair, although he's never complained. I think the closest we need to a system is: If the querant receives replies offline and feels the question is answered, the querant posts a "thanks to" those who answered. If copyright violations aren't involved, the querant can post a summary of the answers, too. (Actually, if the material really is PD or freely distributable, I'd rather see answers go on the list; that's even more interesting when it produces differing results. I also don't mind being asked directly (within limits; so far, nobody's overstepped those limits). If you ask for a dance I have on disk, you'll probably get a fast response. But there's lots of dances I don't have available, and yhou'll get a faster response by asking the list. Besides, other people getting a chance to answer questions means they get to make that much more of a contribution to the community. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 06:50:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Sharon Green wrote: > At 06:19 PM 8/15/00 -0700, Gary D. Shapiro wrote: > > >Sounds like public domain to me yet Alta Vista only found the music > >and a UK musician who lives at a Freeford Gardens address. > > > >If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily > >Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. > > I'll bite... > Not public domain. Choreography by David & Kathryn Wright of Lichfield > (lovely people), directions published both as a single sheet and in Bert > Eccles' compilation Not Quite Playford. You might check out Cotswold > Music's website and see whether the book's still available. If my memory serves me well, they published it as well in one of their own "Wright's Humors" books. Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:26:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:25:54 -0700 From: "Hamilton, Bruce" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: "'ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Barbara Ruth asked: > Have you been under greater than usual stress this week? and Nicolas stepped to my defense with > ... some would regard taking > a dance at Cecil Sharp House as putting one "under greater stress than usual"! That was stressful, but a privilege, and not what got me punchy. It was a pair of things: running Mendocino English Week, which I really put my heart into, and having it *work*. Then, instead of floating down, flying to England and calling 11 dances in the next 13 days. That's what fried me. I can't imagine how Bare Necessities did it with *no* nights off, and some of them straight from week-long camps themselves! Anyway, it's rude to lob a grenade into a room and then leave, so I wanted to explain my absence. Right after starting this thread I had to leave town again. But I'm back, and I'll begin looking to see if there are any winners, or interesting patterns. The discussion has been interesting. I came to thoughts similar to Eric's and Suzanne's, that dippiness may be a combination of qualities. I thought of stickiness -- the tendency to stay in your head -- and inanity -- the extent to which you're embarrassed that you are devoting time to this thing. Words certainly matter. I suspect that they bring inanity in through an unguarded channel. Visual images may be similar: I can be listening to the classical station on the way to work, doing fine, and suddenly a Saturday morning cartoon comes into my head, of the mice ambushing the cat with all the pots in the kitchen. -Bruce bruce_hamilton-AT- agilent.com Tel: 650-485-2818 Fax: 650-485-8092 Agilent Technologies MS 24M-A, 3500 Deer Creek Road, Palo Alto CA 94303 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:10:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:09:49 -0400 (EDT) From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <6.a51e1cc.26cd765d-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I long resisted joining this "dippy tune" thread, hoping that a certain long and deliberately-buried tune would not rise to the surface. Alas, over 20 years of effort are down the drain and Don Quixote's shaving basin from Man of La Mancha shines again.....Golden Helmet of Mambrino, there can be no hat like thee..... What's worse, I got curious about the Google search engine mentioned by Alan Winston the other day, went there and typed in "Golden Helmet of Mambrino" - and in 2 seconds, had ALL the lyrics. Ohhhhhh, Bruce, what have you done? Carol Martinez White Plains, NY ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:29:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:37:18 -0400 From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.1.20000817133557.00bc5480-AT- popserver.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 01:09 PM 8/17/00 -0400, MartinezPC-AT- aol.com wrote: >What's worse, I got curious about the Google search engine mentioned by Alan >Winston the other day, went there and typed in "Golden Helmet of Mambrino" - >and in 2 seconds, had ALL the lyrics. Now see what happens when you search with Google for "Measured Obsession"... Hugs, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:26:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:26:36 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1e.993d506.26cd966c-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/17/00 11:28:08 AM EST, bruce_hamilton-AT- agilent.com writes: << suddenly a Saturday morning cartoon comes into my head, of the mice ambushing the cat with all the pots in the kitchen. >> There's a certain Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody that I cannot hear in any context (radio or concert hall) with seeing Bugs Bunny at the piano. Can anyone hear the Sorcerer's Apprentice (also qualifies as dippy/annoying, imho) without seeing Mickey Mouse? It's amazing how much classical music was used in "popular" culture in the 1st half of the 20th C. Suzanne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:14:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:14:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Susan R. Lorand" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT this morning i found a commercial jingle for a sugary cereal running through my head for no apparent reason. i discovered later that there was a box of it on the kitchen counter in the house where i'm housesitting, which my conscious memory had not registered. scary. i drove it away by remembering some of the tunes that footloose (the band) had played last night for our contra dance. ECD content: footloose also plays ECD. - susie lorand, princeton, nj, usa (who wishes she were still on vacation) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:25:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:17:28 -0400 From: Robert & Kathryn Johnson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Dippy Tunes To: "'ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU'" Message-ID: <01C00866.E185C2A0-AT- ha10s155.d.shentel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_JRsBxZheSxr/cEat/X9Q3A)" --Boundary_(ID_JRsBxZheSxr/cEat/X9Q3A) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Who can hear the Nutcracker Suite without seeing Hypos, Elephants and Alligators dancing about? Or does anyone remember Fantasia? Bob Johnson --Boundary_(ID_JRsBxZheSxr/cEat/X9Q3A) Content-type: application/ms-tnef Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 eJ8+Ig0UAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAA AAIAAgABBJAGAEgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFcA AAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABFQ0RAU1NSTDA0LlNMQUMuU3RhbmZv cmQuRURVAFNNVFAARUNEQFNTUkwwNC5TTEFDLlN0YW5mb3JkLkVEVQAAHgACMAEA AAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB0AAABFQ0RAU1NSTDA0LlNMQUMuU3RhbmZv cmQuRURVAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAB8AAAAnRUNEQFNTUkww NC5TTEFDLlN0YW5mb3JkLkVEVScAAAIBCzABAAAAIgAAAFNNVFA6RUNEQFNTUkww NC5TTEFDLlNUQU5GT1JELkVEVQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQA AAAAAAADsTkBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEA EAAAAFJFOiBEaXBweSBUdW5lcwAmBQEFgAMADgAAANAHCAARABAAEQAcAAQAMQEB IIADAA4AAADQBwgAEQAQAA0AJgAEADcBAQmAAQAhAAAAOEQ2MTY1QUE1NTc0RDQx MThGNDVGNEU1MDFDMTA2MjcA/gYBA5AGAIACAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAA AAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkA4HdsKogIwAEeAHAAAQAAABAAAABSRTogRGlw cHkgVHVuZXMAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcAIiCpsqmVhjnRVEdSPRfTlAcEGJwAAHgAe DAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABMAAABib2JrYXRAc2hlbnRlbC5uZXQA AAMABhD+O4IvAwAHEHkAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABXSE9DQU5IRUFSVEhFTlVUQ1JB Q0tFUlNVSVRFV0lUSE9VVFNFRUlOR0hZUE9TLEVMRVBIQU5UU0FOREFMTElHQVRP UlNEQU5DSU5HQUJPVVQ/T1JET0VTQU5ZT05FUkVNRU1CAAAAAAIBCRABAAAADgEA AAoBAACIAQAATFpGdewTmyf/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYA BsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM7cC5AcTAoM0EswUxX0KgD8IzwnZAoAKgQ2x C2BuZ3gxMDMUUAsKFWIB0CAgV2hvIGMDkWhlzQrBdBtwB7B1dAUAANCmawSQBgB1 aRPQIAPwLxvACGAFQBGwZQuAZyAASHlwb3MsIEV4bGVwEYACMAQgAHBkgRSwbGxp Z2F0BbB1BCBkAHBjHcIBoB1RP8ggIE8FwGRvB5EAcH55AiAb4BegB4AG0ByBRnUe wWEAkGEg0QqFCoVCwG9iIEpvaACAAiALCoUWwQAlcAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAA AEAABzAgTlihhwjAAUAACDAgTlihhwjAAR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAapg= --Boundary_(ID_JRsBxZheSxr/cEat/X9Q3A)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:28:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:28:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000817212813.10855.qmail-AT- web3302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Hamilton, Bruce" wrote: > The discussion has been interesting. I came to thoughts > similar to Eric's and Suzanne's, that dippiness may be a > combination of qualities. I thought of stickiness -- the > tendency to stay in your head -- and inanity -- the extent to > which you're embarrassed that you are devoting time to this > thing. Words certainly matter. I suspect that they bring > inanity in through an unguarded channel. > I listen mainly to the music that I dance to and there are no words recorded with most of them, although there may in fact be words to them of which I am unaware. Do tunes avoid "dippiness" if my mind is dancing to whatever is running through my head rather than hearing munchkins singing "Follow the yellow brick road"? Maybe it makes it easier to avoid dippy tunes by not allowing ones self to absorb "jingles". (Mute the ads when they come on TV and don't listen to pop radio with all it's inane noise between songs of somewhat questionable lasting quality.) Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:51:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:58:59 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <399C8A52.D936446-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01C00866.E185C2A0-AT- ha10s155.d.shentel.net> Robert & Kathryn Johnson wrote: > Who can hear the Nutcracker Suite without seeing Hypos, Elephants and > Alligators dancing about? Or does anyone remember Fantasia? > > Bob Johnson Sorry, but it wasn't the Nutcracker Suite (which was treated reasonably respectfully) but the Dance of the Hours (Poncielly) in which the elephants, alligators, ostriches, hippos, etc danced about. Frankly the only piece in Fantasia that wasn't at least partially spoiled for me was Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, which was presented in the abstract, leaving no lasting images. Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:09:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:09:28 -0400 From: "Michael L. Siemon" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01C00866.E185C2A0-AT- ha10s155.d.shentel.net> <399C8A52.D936446-AT- globalnetisp.net> >Robert & Kathryn Johnson wrote: > >> Who can hear the Nutcracker Suite without seeing Hypos, Elephants and >> Alligators dancing about? Or does anyone remember Fantasia? >> >> Bob Johnson > >Sorry, but it wasn't the Nutcracker Suite (which was treated reasonably >respectfully) but the Dance of the Hours (Poncielly) in which the >elephants, alligators, ostriches, hippos, etc danced about. Frankly the >only piece in Fantasia that wasn't at least partially spoiled for me was >Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, which was presented in the abstract, >leaving no lasting images. > >Ben Stein >dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net Personally, I think the _Fantasia_ version of the "Dance of the Hours" with its _wonderful_ crockodiles and hippos and ostriches is the only thing (not excluding the "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda" schtick) that redeems Poncielli's pedestrian exercise from consignment to oblivion. The animation _makes_ this piece! Most of the rest of Fantasia causes me to blench. There is some compelling visual matching of music and image/animation (notably in the Night on Bald Mountain, before its saccharine segue into high-calorie trash, but also in some bits of the Rite of Spring, despite the overall mangling of that piece...) in the work. For myself, I thought the Bach segment was pretentious and without visual interest. Michael Siemon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:56:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:09:29 -0500 From: Dianna Shipman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Mars and Venus" - anybody been able to sort it out? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <00e301c008b7$c27d41c0$26cb530c-AT- pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <200006291935.MAA29171-AT- bassclar.eng.sun.com> And does this interesting orchestra have a web site? Or any CD's for this music yet :-) Dianna Dianna L. Shipman diannashipman-AT- worldnet.att.net PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray Houston, TX 77019-4946 Scottish Country Dancing and More web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman phone: 713-522-1212 ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Langdell" To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: "Mars and Venus" - anybody been able to sort it out? > Alan Winston wrote: > > > I think > > Cyprians' was suggested to us by Cathleen Myers, who went on to found PEERS > > (which last weekend presented the Toontown Hop, a mostly-couple-dance ball to > > music used in or associated with cartoons, including the Supercalifragilistic > > Expialadocius one-step, and (ECD content at last!) Galopede to "The Ride of > the > > Valkyries" (as heard, briefly, in "What's Opera, Doc") and Sir Roger de > > Coverley to "The Sorceror's Apprentice" (as heard in Fantasia), which worked > > beautifully.) > > I'm the leader of the Divertimento Dance Orchestra, which played for the > Toon Town Hop, as well as for Bay Area English Regency Society balls. > Here's a little more detail on that sequence of tunes to traditional dances. > > The Galopede was to portions of the "William Tell Overture". The > Sir Roger de Coverley sequence of tunes was "Sorceror's Apprentice", > "Ride of the Valkyries" (aka "Kill The Wabbit!"), "Mexican Hat Dance", > "Irish Washerwoman", and (accelerating from jig meter) the conclusion > of Liszt's "Hungarian Rhapsody #2". > > I was sadistically proud, during the grand march, of waiting until > the dancers were tightly wound into a spiral before cuing the band > to switch to "It's A Small World". > > --James Langdell jamesc-AT- eng.sun.com OR langdell-AT- earthlink.net > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:54:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:52:13 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000818.005219.-900137.35.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As one of the new dance editors for the CDSS News, I'm happy to inform everyone that a definitive version of Freeford Gardens will be published in the News very shortly, once all the appropriate permissions have been obtained. As producer of the Bare Necessities "English Country Dance Collection" CD's, I'm delighted by the interest in this terrific dance and tune (recorded on Volume 3 "Simple Pleasures"), and regretful that the instruction sheet isn't in as wide circulation as my liner notes implied. But, see above. Gene Murrow EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and promoter of synergy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:59:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:08:41 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <399D4368.B85CBED6-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01C00866.E185C2A0-AT- ha10s155.d.shentel.net> <399C8A52.D936446-AT- globalnetisp.net> "Michael L. Siemon" wrote: > >Robert & Kathryn Johnson wrote: > > > >> Who can hear the Nutcracker Suite without seeing Hypos, Elephants and > >> Alligators dancing about? Or does anyone remember Fantasia? > >> > >> Bob Johnson > > > >Sorry, but it wasn't the Nutcracker Suite (which was treated reasonably > >respectfully) but the Dance of the Hours (Poncielly) in which the > >elephants, alligators, ostriches, hippos, etc danced about. Frankly the > >only piece in Fantasia that wasn't at least partially spoiled for me was > >Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, which was presented in the abstract, > >leaving no lasting images. > > > >Ben Stein > >dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net > > Personally, I think the _Fantasia_ version of the "Dance of the Hours" > with its _wonderful_ crockodiles and hippos and ostriches is the only > thing (not excluding the "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda" schtick) that > redeems Poncielli's pedestrian exercise from consignment to oblivion. > The animation _makes_ this piece! Most of the rest of Fantasia causes > me to blench. There is some compelling visual matching of music and > image/animation (notably in the Night on Bald Mountain, before its > saccharine segue into high-calorie trash, but also in some bits of > the Rite of Spring, despite the overall mangling of that piece...) > in the work. For myself, I thought the Bach segment was pretentious > and without visual interest. > > Michael Siemon You are probably right (certainly so on the Dance of the Hours). I am remembering Fantasia through a haze of over 60 years. I do know that at the age of 15 (maybe 16) it turned me on to Bach and it was just a bit later, as I matured in musical taste that I got away from the Bach/Stokowski treatment and into the pure thing. My memories tie into the "original" production. If you can find a good '78 rpm player I would be happy to play my Landowska or Schweizer recordings for you some time. Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 07:04:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:52:42 -0400 From: Robert & Kathryn Johnson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Dippy Tunes To: "'ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU'" Message-ID: <01C008FA.EA170FC0-AT- ha10s224.d.shentel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UCzjf+iUYWFxjP6rrRWRkA)" --Boundary_(ID_UCzjf+iUYWFxjP6rrRWRkA) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Whoa, once again I am way out of my league! Right you are, Ben, I was really thinking of the flowers swirling, the little mushroom caps dancing, etc., but got trampled by the larger members of the animal kingdom. Not a musician (ever, though I did take piano lessons), and still pre high school, I experienced Fantasia in its initial presentation at the Carthay Circle Theatre (long since disappeared) in Los Angeles. The first 'wide' screen and 'surround sound', I still remember it very fondly. Bob Johnson --Boundary_(ID_UCzjf+iUYWFxjP6rrRWRkA) Content-type: application/ms-tnef Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 eJ8+IjUNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAA AAIAAgABBJAGAEgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADAFAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFcA AAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABFQ0RAU1NSTDA0LlNMQUMuU3RhbmZv cmQuRURVAFNNVFAARUNEQFNTUkwwNC5TTEFDLlN0YW5mb3JkLkVEVQAAHgACMAEA AAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB0AAABFQ0RAU1NSTDA0LlNMQUMuU3RhbmZv cmQuRURVAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAB8AAAAnRUNEQFNTUkww NC5TTEFDLlN0YW5mb3JkLkVEVScAAAIBCzABAAAAIgAAAFNNVFA6RUNEQFNTUkww NC5TTEFDLlNUQU5GT1JELkVEVQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQA AAAAAAAFtTkBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEA EAAAAFJFOiBEaXBweSBUdW5lcwAmBQEFgAMADgAAANAHCAASAAkANAAqAAUAXQEB IIADAA4AAADQBwgAEgAJADQAKgAFAF0BAQmAAQAhAAAANEYwNEMwRjNFNDc0RDQx MThGNDVGNEU1MDFDMTA2MjcABwcBA5AGAMQDAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAA AAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAQKaAlBsJwAEeAHAAAQAAABAAAABSRTogRGlw cHkgVHVuZXMAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcAJG5SA88AEWHTkEdSPRfTlAcEGJwAAHgAe DAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABMAAABib2JrYXRAc2hlbnRlbC5uZXQA AAMABhCtg0dSAwAHEJ0BAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABXSE9BLE9OQ0VBR0FJTklBTVdB WU9VVE9GTVlMRUFHVUVSSUdIVFlPVUFSRSxCRU4sSVdBU1JFQUxMWVRISU5LSU5H T0ZUSEVGTE9XRVJTU1dJUkxJTkcsVEhFTElUVExFTVVTAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAUQIA AE0CAAATAwAATFpGdZq7hE//AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYA BsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM7cC5AcTAoM0EswUxX0KgD8IzwnZAoAKgQ2x C2BuZ3gxMDMUUAsKFWIB0CBAV2hvYSwgAiBjkGUgYWcLcSBJG5CgbSB3YXkbQHUF QJBvZiBtHHBsZRugOQpQISAdoQqFCoVSafRnaAVAeQhgG5AXoBsw/kIJ8BswHAAc UAQgF6AHQFJsHHB0aAuAawuAZ88cwiDQG4AZIG93BJAEIPkD4XJsISEbMCGSIpAC QGMdMBzwdXNoA2ADcCCoY2FwBCBkAHBjIqMpEcBjLhswYhyhZ2/5BUB0chwgC1AJ gCVgILK7IxEKwGcEkBzwE+BiIhKvIWUAcAdwB0AgIRJkA3CqLh3sTiXBYSOSaSSw 8QORKGV2BJAi0ghgHuBZG/FkaSZgAZBrG4BwnSrRbx0hBBACIHMpGzD/AHAmYBPA AxADIBNQG4Ag4B8rwQTwGwAG8B/iZXhw7wZxCfAbcCZgRgBwAZAAkP8qYBvRI0AE IAuAI0AHMS4yfxGwMFEt8AIgG5Al0SGhQ1cKwCDQHGFDInBjI3FU9yGgMiAuUSgX MCExAJAbYp0sEHMkQC+QH2FkKTCyVExvBCBBGVBlLQEunx2gM+EhwCJwE8AgJwPw nQ2wJy7BCdItkydzCHDtA2B1LbI5Eicf4i3kF6C7J2Qw4SArMRxwAhFkIKABKT1C b2IgSm9oLwCAAiAKhRbBAD4gAAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzCgU6raFgnA AUAACDBApoCUGwnAAR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAgA= --Boundary_(ID_UCzjf+iUYWFxjP6rrRWRkA)-- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:32:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:32:01 +0000 From: Phil D'Agostino Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy Tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20000818113201.3eb7bc0c-AT- mum.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01C00866.E185C2A0-AT- ha10s155.d.shentel.net> <399C8A52.D936446-AT- globalnetisp.net> Folks, Here's my take on "Fantasia": I first saw it on a date in High School ( around 1961? ). I really liked it. Up until then, my only exposure to classical music was records my mom got for accumulating green stamps at the supermarket. (Although some of those recordings were 1st class, too - Toscanini etc.) You are right - the animations stick in your head whenever you remember the music, but the exposure to all that stuff was really valuable to me - it lured me further into the field - I eventually took my degree in music. Phil >> Personally, I think the _Fantasia_ version of the "Dance of the Hours" >> with its _wonderful_ crockodiles and hippos and ostriches is the only >> thing (not excluding the "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda" schtick) that >> redeems Poncielli's pedestrian exercise from consignment to oblivion. >> The animation _makes_ this piece! Most of the rest of Fantasia causes >> me to blench. There is some compelling visual matching of music and >> image/animation (notably in the Night on Bald Mountain, before its >> saccharine segue into high-calorie trash, but also in some bits of >> the Rite of Spring, despite the overall mangling of that piece...) >> in the work. For myself, I thought the Bach segment was pretentious >> and without visual interest. >> >> Michael Siemon > >You are probably right (certainly so on the Dance of the Hours). I am >remembering Fantasia through a haze of over 60 years. I do know that at the >age of 15 (maybe 16) it turned me on to Bach and it was just a bit later, as I >matured in musical taste that I got away from the Bach/Stokowski treatment and >into the pure thing. My memories tie into the "original" production. If you >can find a good '78 rpm player I would be happy to play my Landowska or >Schweizer recordings for you some time. > >Ben Stein >dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net > > > > Phil D'Agostino Systems Engineering-Dept. of Communcations Maharishi University of Management Fairfield, Iowa 52557 641-472-7000 x2001 641-472-1137(Fax) 641-472-1228 Box 1000 (voice Mail) phild-AT- mum.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:10:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JT69MIZXZG9GVPSN-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ECDers -- So what do you do about new people who come to a dance intending to watch for a while before trying it out? I often program so that the biggest challenges come around the middle, which means that those people are doing themselves no favors at all. (I also pay some attention to introducing figures in the easier dances so there isn't so much novelty to them in the harder ones.) Their strategy makes sense on the surface, and it's probably productive if you're, say, going to your first Cajun dance and want to get an idea of how people dance to this music before trying it. The next two-step or waltz isn't going to be a lot harder than the one they're doing now. I suppose it's also useful if you're worried that the dancing will be too physically demanding for you. Last night, one of the regular Palo Alto dancers introduced me before the dance started to the man in a couple she'd brought with her, making a point in the introduction of their plan to watch first. I made a point of saying that we were starting with easy dances and had some complex ones scheduled for the middle, and that if he didn't start dancing in the first half he was probably best off waiting until the third one after the break. He watched the first half of the evening, and then got in the _second_ one after the break. _Love's Triumph_. It's a gorgeous dance and a luscious tune, but it's not an easy dance for someone who has no kinetic memory, even, of what 'turn single' means. By the time he joined in, I had three sets, the band had played the tune once, and I'd announced the dance, so I didn't think I could ditch it and do something easy instead. He was game, but struggling badly, and I couldn't think of any way to help him; I kept calling, but the words weren't making sense to him. The other sets were doing okay, but I felt I had to end his agony after six times through the music (twice through the dance), rather than doing the third repetition of the dance, the one where I don't talk at all and (if all goes well) the experience becomes magical. I don't know if he'll ever come back. He has an experience only of struggling and being baffled, and that's likely to be the image he'll have of ECD. The fact that it's arguably his own fault doesn't make this any less unfortunate. Does anybody have any ideas about how to persuade people to get moving early? Telling them plainly that it's a good idea doesn't seem to do it. Any ideas of how to deal with it when they get moving late? -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 05:52:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:52:20 -0400 From: "Roger W. Broseus" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000820084509.00a83780-AT- 63.146.27.10> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 01:10 AM 8/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >ECDers -- > >So what do you do about new people who come to a dance intending to watch for >a while before trying it out? I often program so that the biggest challenges >come around the middle, which means that those people are doing themselves no >favors at all. I think it's more than that: new dancers are trying to get the 'feel' of the dance and the community . . . wondering if they will be liked/accepted, etc. So, if the newcomer felt welcome, can overcome his shyness, if any, and, most of all, thinks he'll get something out of it, he'll be back. A warm, welcoming, non-critical dance community means a lot. Non-critical needs emphasis: I've seen new dancer's hair stand up on the back of their neck when offered well-meaning criticism by more experienced dancers. (Example: you've gotta MOVE!) And then, there's nothing to be done for the person who comes and doesn't come back because ECD is really not for him or her. So, what do you do for those who want to watch first? Do another easy dance and bring them into the fold . . . let them have a success. The caller might have to let them sit out for a round to recover if they've been frustrated. -- Roger _ __ _________________ _ ___________________________________________ /__) _, __, _ _ /_) Contra dancing fanatic, English country / \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado. Email: Roger-AT- cpcug.org _/_ www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html _______ (/____________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 06:30:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:39:22 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <399FDF8A.53CA327C-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <4.3.2.20000820084509.00a83780-AT- 63.146.27.10> Don't know if this is any help but offer it for what it is worth. For many years I have had the responsibility of running the Friday evening "Welcome" dance at the Montreal Scottish Country Dance Weekend. I have to anticipate a "mixed bag" and usually some new dancers. I am aware that they will be somewhat uncomfortable, probably arrive a little late, and will "hold back" on entering a dance so I usually start off with interesting but not too complex dances and then always place some very easy, beginner level (but interesting), dances about a third of the way through the program-to catch the interest of new dancers. I am also very careful to let the dancers know when a dance is suitable for "all" or if a dance is only suitable for experienced dancers. Additionally ,be aware that new dancers tend to tire quickly and are usually happy to sit out dances shortly before intermission or late in the program and that these are good times to insert the most technically difficult dances. I am an English Country Dancer (and occassional caller) as well and find the same principles apply there. Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 07:19:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:20:11 -0400 From: Mary E Jones Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <399FE91B.69618D60-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01JT69MIZXZG9GVPSN-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > So what do you do about new people who come to a dance intending to watch for > a while before trying it out? Hello All - Programming an evening is one of my 'hot buttons' - I really feel that a good program will cover a lot of calling and musical sins - and a not-well-thought-out program will be unsatisfying for the dancers, no matter how great the music and efficient the teaching/prompting. That said...I generally try to program in at least 1 goofy dance in the evening - and pretty much always a simple dance after a difficult one. There is a kind of Bell curve when programming, and these dances are the bottom of the curve... Since the beginners often want to watch at the outset, for all the reasons Alan mentioned (and on the surface, make sense), they are often sucked into the difficult set dances because a body is needed. As we've all seen, this is a tough situation for everyone. Here is a new dancer feeling clumsy and uncomfortable while looking at all these others who (to that person) seem to be graceful and elegant But if after that dance there is a dopey, dippy dance - Alan has a great one: My Lord Byron's Maggot - then *everyone* looks less than elegant. All are laughing and no one is any 'better' than a new dancer. I think of it as leveling the playing field for the beginners. Even if it's not necessary to reach the depths of silliness, a simple, straight-forward dance after a difficult one can also be a welcome relief for the experienced dancers. Of course, nothing is set in stone - Mary Jones Amherst, MA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:29:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:25:42 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: What if people want to watch To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <200008201128_MC2-B04B-C02-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ben is addressing a situation where people come for a whole weekend of dancing. They have have, most likely, preregistered and do know the genre of dance which is featured. They may, alas, not know any of the leaders or fellow dancers. But they DO know why they came in the first place. Alan is addressing another issue. A man who is invited, cajoled, pressed into service or whatever by a female dance enthusiast. And we all know that potential male partners who are currently non-dancers need to be introduced gently to what may be an entirely foreign experience to them. I mean, adults who are holding HANDS with strangers, dancing with partners they may have never seen before, using movements that are new - and then the worries - maybe only subliminal - of sticking out like a sore thumb and not living up to your wishful partner's expectations either... If someone walks in determined to come to watch, LET THEM BE! The worst I have encountered was when a whole bunch of newcomers who came to watch was cajoled into participating in the 'learning and walkthrough ONLY, you don't have to dance it...' of The Night Cap. The newcomers were needed to complete sets. Imagine what happened. Nobody benefitted from that exercise for sure. In Alan's instance, and if the program had not been ironclad, and if I had found out beforehand of the 'we came to watch' intention, I would have recommended to get into the first simple dance and maybe a mixer and - given an opportunity for conversation and based on my observation of the dancer's comfort and performance - then cheerfully have told him that to observe from now on would be his best bet or to wait for the dance xyz which would essentially repeat things he had already danced well. I'd never - and I mean NEVER - ask a newcomer to complete a set without being prepared for the sacrifice of everyone's dance enjoyment and getting the rap for that afterwards. Coming to watch is an important first step for some folks. Much better than coming prepared to fully participate without having a clue about the nature of the activity. We have recognized that by selling tickets to some events which are for 'watching only'. For committed dancers it is sometimes difficult to understand why others can sit still during this wonderful activity and not take advantage of the opportunity to participate right away. Give them the chance to observe first - and be glad that their knowledge of self dictates that introduction. And have some dances up your sleeve where 'if you can walk you can dance - and THIS ONE is one of those, honestly' applies. _-AT- _ {)/' /\ /\_._,<_/ ' \ /_\ /> /< Hanny ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 12:55:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 12:55:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000820195538.25528.qmail-AT- web3303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT --- Alan Winston wrote: > So what do you do about new people who come to a dance > intending to watch for a while before trying it out? > > Their strategy makes sense on the surface... > > Last night, one of the regular Palo Alto dancers introduced me > before the dance started to the man in a couple she'd brought with her, making a point in the introduction of their plan to watch first. > > I don't know if he'll ever come back. He has an experience > only of struggling and being baffled, and that's likely to be the image he'll have of ECD. > > Does anybody have any ideas about how to persuade people to > get moving early? Our Contra community in Portland always has a beginners workshop at 7:30 before the 8:00 dance. This gives new people a chance to learn something of what is going to happen. The problem that I have seen is people arriving after the workshop, sometimes after the first few dances, and trying to learn "on the fly" without having any clue to what the calls mean. I know people who bring friends to the dance but don't get them there in time for the workshop and I think that is doing the friend a disservice. One thing would have been to suggest to the dancer who brought them that s/he bring them out on the floor for the first _dance_, where you presumably would be teaching some of the easiest moves, then if they wanted to sit for a while before joining back in they might be able to relate what they did in that first dance to the figures in other dances that they are watching. Another suggestion would be for a couple to bring both people from a new couple in and help them learn the first dance with that same option of sitting out afterwards. If I bring someone to a dance who is new to dancing I try to teach them some basics beforehand. I know other people who do this, too. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:04:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyrl Ahern Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000821030352.1557.qmail-AT- web2102.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT --- Andrew Peterson wrote: > Our Contra community in Portland always has a beginners > workshop at 7:30 before the 8:00 dance....The problem that > I have seen is people arriving after the workshop... Here in the Boston Centre, we have made stabs at solving this problem, but we run into the same dilemma. I suggested that various experienced dancers might take the beginners out into the hall and make sure they understand siding, arming, forward-&-back-a-double, casts, etc. The idea didn't catch on. > Another suggestion would be for a couple to bring both > people from a new couple in and help them learn the first > dance with that same option of sitting out afterwards. Our currently rather large ECD committee makes a conscious effort to make new people feel welcome: we ask them to dance. Sometimes even those who say they want to watch are willing to join a set if they are asked, after watching one or two. We also split up beginner couples after they've had a few dances together. > If I bring someone to a dance who is new to dancing I try > to teach them some basics beforehand. Back in the early 70s I took one of my college friends to a NYC Center weekend at Hudson Guild. Before we left, I made sure she understood all the basic figures. People at the weekend couldn't believe that she had never danced before (though things were simpler then--i.e., no Choice Morsels hey). --Lyrl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:55:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:55:16 -0400 From: Howard Markham Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD in Chipping-Campden and Environs? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001c00be4$66649250$ab981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A friend, an English Country but not a morris dancer, will be in Chipping-Campden for a week or so in mid September. She would like to attend an ECD evening while there. What are her prospects? Where should she look? Whom contact? Thanks for any suggestions. Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:10:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:09:59 -0400 From: "Roger W. Broseus" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD in Chipping-Campden and Environs? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Valerie and Ian Webster Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000822110525.00a83440-AT- 63.146.27.10> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 10:55 PM 8/21/00 -0400, you wrote: >A friend, an English Country but not a morris dancer, will be in >Chipping-Campden for a week or so in mid September. She would like to >attend an ECD evening while there. What are her prospects? Where should >she look? Whom contact? Thanks for any suggestions. Howard: check for links on my dance page: get to dance niche via www.just.net/~roger. Also, here's a lady in Bath . . . not to far from where your friend will be: Valerie Webster, co-author of Unrequited Love, a spoof sung at Pinewoods in '99 (check the link). I enjoyed a nice stay in a B&B in the Cotswolds in '95 with my daughter, Alex. Didn't get to dance, tho. Good luck. -- Roger _ __ _________________ _ ___________________________________________ /__) _, __, _ _ /_) Contra dancing fanatic, English country / \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado. Email: Roger-AT- cpcug.org _/_ www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html _______ (/____________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:32:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:25:13 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Big ECD Year To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000822.122608.-825423.10.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Next year, 2001, is a big year for us English country dancers. It's the 350th anniversary of the publication of the 1st edition of John Playford's Dancing Master. Folks in the classical music, fine art, and literary worlds make use of such arbitrary milestones to provide a focus for outreach activities and to garner whatever publicity they can get within the cacophony of popular culture. Remember the big "Bach year" in 1985 (300 years since his birth) or the "Purcell year" in 1995 (300 years since his death)? As I've been thinking about such possibilities for ECD, several questions formed in my head that the collective wisdom of this list might well be able to answer: 1. How big is ECD? Specifically, how many active English country dancers are alive in the world today? By "active ECD-ers" I mean people who voluntarily sought out and attended at least one ECD event (Playford/historical, "barn," or "ceilidh") in the last year, and will do so again. I would *include* people who may only attend one event a year (a Campbell Folk School week-end, or Sidmouth Festival dance marquee, or Elizabethan madrigal dinner, say), and *exclude* people who attended an event simply by coincidence not choice (e.g. unsuspecting guests at a wedding where ECD was done). One place to start might be to count the number of members of the various CDSS centers, EFDSS clubs, and other independent organizations (recognizing that many members are actually singers or contra dancers, and many ECD-ers are not members). Any good estimates??? I'll toss out my SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess) of 20,000, worldwide. Seems small, but there it is. 2. What are the durable aesthetic elements of ECD? We've tossed out several key aspects of the dance as done in 1651-- the variety and complexity of the stepping, the opportunity to improvise and show off stepping combinations, the tempo and character of the music-- yet we ECD-ers remain passionate about the genre. What is inherent in the dance that appeals to 21st century dancers and creators? 3. What are the current social roles of ECD? In the 17th and 18th centuries, proficiency at ECD was an emblem of social status; it proclaimed one's membership in a new rising middle class. Longways dances provided opportunities for un-married people to converse, and for persons of different status to mingle. Today, our English dance communities in many cases have taken on some of the roles previously held by extended families or religious congregations. We seek the ECD community to witness our marriages, or share our losses at funerals and memorial services. What are the various current roles, and how does the structure of the dance and the social structure around the dance reinforce some roles and inhibit others? I know these are "big questions," and good chunks of the answers may be found in the archives of this list. But I think that focusing our attention and distilling our knowledge into cogent answers to these 3 questions (are there others?) might be good preparation for the upcoming "Playford year." As others have done, I'll compile and integrate all our thoughts over the next several weeks, and post the results. Thanks, Gene Murrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:52:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Big ECD Year To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Gene Murrow wrote: > Next year, 2001, is a big year for us English country dancers. It's the > 350th anniversary of the publication of the 1st edition of John > Playford's Dancing Master. Folks in the classical music, fine art, and > literary worlds make use of such arbitrary milestones to provide a focus > for outreach activities and to garner whatever publicity they can get > within the cacophony of popular culture. Remember the big "Bach year" in > 1985 (300 years since his birth) or the "Purcell year" in 1995 (300 years > since his death)? Insofar as the "bigness" of this event derives solely from the totally unconnected fact that we use base 10 for the number system by which we count years, and the interval in question is a (fairly small prime) integer multiple of a half-century (which as time intervals go doesn't accrue nearly as much hoopla power as the century itself), I'd like to point out that 7 makes as legitimate base for counting things (calendar makers know this very well!), and furthermore there are natural biological rhythms which would seem to make it a very reasonable choice for counting years (viz. the "seven-year itch"). With that in mind, I'd like to point out that we completely missed the significance of the year 1994 (base 10) to ECD, which was a MUCH bigger year than 2001 will ever be -- counting in Septades instead of Decades, with 7 (base 10) = 10 (base 7) Septades in a base-7 century and as many base-7 centuries in a base-7 millennium, the year 1994 (base 10) was 1000 years (base 7) after the publication of John Playford's "The English Dancing Master." It seems to me that that is a much bigger deal -- yet we made absolutely nothing of it. So it comes down to the fact that it is not the event that matters -- here was an event related to our interest in English Country Dancing by a really major numerological interval which we completely ignored -- but the base of the number system. If it is the event that is important and not the number system, why don't we choose a number system which provides more opportune moments for such reverential observance? If they serve a useful purpose by persuading us to focus on particular achievements of past times, is it not important to insure that every generation has the opportunity to refresh its memory in order to pass on the wisdom from one generation to the next? Think of the interest that comets generate. Which are more interesting -- those that you are not likely to see at all, those that you might see once if you are lucky, those that you might expect to see twice in a lifetime, or those that come by more frequently? Personally, I'd opt for the twice in a lifetime -- there's a kind of continuity there that grabs me, and yet it isn't so frequent that one would easily tire of it. Major celebrations of human achievement might benefit from similar reinforcement. But the fact that we want to celebrate the 350th anniversary of something suggests that century-spacing of such celebrations is too far apart. Which makes me wonder: was there a major celebration of the 300th anniversary of the publication of the English Dancing Master? If there was, it escapee me -- being a whole-century interval, that should have been a biggie! But I missed it! Perhaps I would have started dancing sooner... How about it? Anyone out there give me a high 7 on that? Eric (tongue only 7/10 in cheek) Arnold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:59:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:59:07 -0700 From: "Hamilton, Bruce" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: "'ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan Winston wrote: > So what do you do about new people who come to a dance > intending to watch for a while before trying it out? ... and then describes a situation where he does everything right [IMHO] and still winds up embarrassing the newcomer. Roger W. Broseus replied with: > I think it's more than that: new dancers are trying to get the 'feel' of > the dance and the community . . . wondering if they will be liked/accepted, > etc. So, if the newcomer felt welcome, can overcome his shyness, if any, > and, most of all, thinks he'll get something out of it, he'll be back. A > warm, welcoming, non-critical dance community means a lot. I agree with this strongly. I see three things here: 1) What the caller can do at the time (advice to the newcomer, choice of program, ...). 2) What the other dancers can do at the time (warm, welcoming, non-critical). 3) What we can all do all the time to influence the warm, welcoming, non-critical qualities of our dance scene. As caller, I've been teaching people to be non-critical of mistakes, with precisely goal #2 in mind; and the results have been gradual but rewarding. But that only helps after the newcomer has joined the dance. It's even better if, as (I think) Roger suggests, the atmosphere in the room is so that a newcomer isn't afraid to dive in. Callers are in the most obvious position to help grow and maintain this quality, but I think everyone has a role. -Bruce bruce_hamilton-AT- agilent.com Tel: 650-485-2818 Fax: 650-485-8092 Agilent Technologies MS 24M-A, 3500 Deer Creek Road, Palo Alto CA 94303 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:07:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:33:21 -0400 From: pam-AT- tedcrane.com (Pamela Goddard) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Big ECD Year To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <00082215332145-AT- tedcrane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding Eric's musings on celebrations - I don't know how old you are Eric? Were you around 50 years ago? & Old enough to dance? And what would that be in dog years? (base 7?) -Pamela Goddard In timeless Ithaca, NY ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:06:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:06:27 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At Pinewoods Campers' Week (last week), Robin Rogers-Browne presented a wonderful version of Easter Thursday. She said that she got it from a dancer from Utah who assumed it was the standard version of the dance. This dancer attributed it to Christine Helwig, although Robin wasn't sure of how closely it was associated with her. In any event, Robin was somewhat unsure of some details, but after some discussion and trial-and-error we came up with the following dance, done to the usual Easter Thursday tune. I found it irresistible. It eliminates the awkward nine-count 2-hand turns in the beginning of the dance, alters the balances somewhat, and keeps the sweeping ending. I'd be interested in knowing 1) if anyone else is aware of this version, 2) did our tweaking changed it in any meaningful way from what is already out there, 3) where did it actually come from, and 4) what the ECD community thinks of it. Try it - you'll like it! Carl Friedman Easter Thursday Duple minor improper A1: (1-3) Neighbors gypsy R shoulder (4-6) Partners gypsy L shoulder A2: (1-3) Neighbors turn R-hand (4-6) Partners turn L-hand B1: (1-2) All face into ring, balance in and out* (without taking hands) (3-4) All cast R into ring, taking hands (5-6) Circle L (back to original places) B2: (1-4) 1s 1/2-figure 8 down, cross (above 2s) and cast (2s moving up) (5-6) All 2-hand turn partner (*Robin suggested balance out and in, as with the usual version - either seems to work, but in and out makes more sense to me) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:03:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:30:49 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Big ECD Year To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000823.085909.-825423.16.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Eric Arnold writes: > > Insofar as the "bigness" of this event derives solely from the > totally unconnected fact that we use base 10 for the number system by which > we count years... Hey, Eric, you know me... any excuse for a party! The Brits are throwing a big week-end long bash at Cecil Sharp House next March to mark the 350th. We probably should be using the binary system anyway (the 101011110th -- hey, looks like a gender free set!), because most longways are in duple minor and in dog years I'm already dead. Anyway, enough of this numerology... anyone know how many of us are out there? and why? Gene Murrow EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and former math teacher who bailed after computer programming outgrew octal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:54:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:55:57 -0400 From: Lou Vosteen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As I was working out a dance program this past week, the following question popped in my mind: How does one call a gender free ladies chain? Lou ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:30:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:29:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Margherita Davis Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The B1 section looks familiar to me, but my memory attributes it to Sue Salmons having taught it that way. I don't remember there ever being a gypsy. Margherita Davis ----Original Message Follows---- From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Easter Thursday Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:06:27 -0400 (EDT) At Pinewoods Campers' Week (last week), Robin Rogers-Browne presented a wonderful version of Easter Thursday. She said that she got it from a dancer from Utah who assumed it was the standard version of the dance. This dancer attributed it to Christine Helwig, although Robin wasn't sure of how closely it was associated with her. In any event, Robin was somewhat unsure of some details, but after some discussion and trial-and-error we came up with the following dance, done to the usual Easter Thursday tune. I found it irresistible. It eliminates the awkward nine-count 2-hand turns in the beginning of the dance, alters the balances somewhat, and keeps the sweeping ending. I'd be interested in knowing 1) if anyone else is aware of this version, 2) did our tweaking changed it in any meaningful way from what is already out there, 3) where did it actually come from, and 4) what the ECD community thinks of it. Try it - you'll like it! Carl Friedman Easter Thursday Duple minor improper A1: (1-3) Neighbors gypsy R shoulder (4-6) Partners gypsy L shoulder A2: (1-3) Neighbors turn R-hand (4-6) Partners turn L-hand B1: (1-2) All face into ring, balance in and out* (without taking hands) (3-4) All cast R into ring, taking hands (5-6) Circle L (back to original places) B2: (1-4) 1s 1/2-figure 8 down, cross (above 2s) and cast (2s moving up) (5-6) All 2-hand turn partner (*Robin suggested balance out and in, as with the usual version - either seems to work, but in and out makes more sense to me) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:02:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JTAVKNZZYQ9GXB88-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lou asked: How does one call a gender free ladies chain? At the risk of answering a joke question seriously: You identify the people who do the move and tell them to do the move. In, say, "Long Pond", where the ones get crossed over and then the ladies chain up and down the set, you can say "The people in first corner places chain up and down the set" or "Face the other pair. The people on the right in each pair chain" (which has more words, but works whether you're facing across or up and down) while you're teaching the dance and "Chain" while you're prompting. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:29:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:25:52 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <004401c00d16$6d5b1060$3898adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <> In the northeast, where gender-free dancers use armbands to designate the person dancing the traditional man's part, it would be "bare-arms chain" or "bares chain". The former has the advantage of maintaining the same vocal rhythm as "ladies chain". Of course, most callers probably just call "chain" after a time or two, just as they would at a gendered dance. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:30:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:37:12 -0700 From: paul/victoria bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000823103712.00814100-AT- oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 09:55 AM 8/23/2000 -0400, you wrote: >As I was working out a dance program this past week, the following question >popped in my mind: > >How does one call a gender free ladies chain? > >Lou If its in longways sets chaining across you could say "Second corners chain across." If the chain is up and down the set its with first corners. Victoria Check out our WEB site, at http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/ Read about our trip to the Rockies..... See the portfolio from Northwest New Year's Camp..... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:32:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:31:56 -0500 (CDT) From: j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: when did the cast-off change? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008231731.e7NHVuw17719-AT- staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Here's another question for the dance history experts. When did the cast-off figure (as in 'first couple down the center, return and cast-off into 2nd place) change from the unassisted cast we generally see in ECD to the assisted cast common in contra dance (either hand-cast or arms-around- waists)? Was it due to the increased speed of contra dances that the couple doing the cast-off needed some help to get around quickly enough? In addition when the 2nd couple is part of the figure and the 2's are backing up while the 1's go forward it seems to me that the 1's will have less distance to travel to get around to 2nd place, so that takes less time as well. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:05:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:14:13 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: when did the cast-off change? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39A41474.B46E661A-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <200008231731.e7NHVuw17719-AT- staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote: > Here's another question for the dance history experts. When did the > cast-off figure (as in 'first couple down the center, return and cast-off > into 2nd place) change from the unassisted cast we generally see in ECD > to the assisted cast common in contra dance (either hand-cast or arms-around- > waists)? Was it due to the increased speed of contra dances that the > couple doing the cast-off needed some help to get around quickly enough? > In addition when the 2nd couple is part of the figure and the 2's are > backing up while the 1's go forward it seems to me that the 1's will have > less distance to travel to get around to 2nd place, so that takes less > time as well. > > Jonathan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | > | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | > | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | > | Beckman Institute | | > | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | > | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | > | Work: 217/244-1923 | | > | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not quite sure. There are a number of local variants of the cast off. The "unassisted" one-fairly common in ECD. The assisted one: not unknown in ECD (i.e. Dublin Bay) and the one used by the Larkin Dancers (a Vermont demo group started in the 1930's to show a "kind of" late 19th century Vermont Style Contra dance) who have the actives back around the ones below: sort of a mirror do-si-do. To the best of my knowledge the assisted cast off came into common use in the folk dance groups shortly after world war II. The new dancers didn't know how to do a cast off and the leaders used the "assist" as a teaching method and it caught on to the point that modern dancers don't think you know what to do if you don't fling an arm around the waist. Well-enough of my soap box! Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:22:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:22:22 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: when did the cast-off change? To: English Dance Message-ID: <000601c00d37$76158ca0$c9981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ben Stein wrote: "The assisted one: not unknown in ECD (i.e. Dublin Bay)" It should be noted that the original instructions (see Keller and Shimer, The Playford Ball) say only "...cast off and so to the end." The date of the dance is 1710. To know how the cast was executed in that dance we need to know how casts in general were accomplished in 1710. The reconstruction by Bernard Bentley (Fallibroome, Bk. 1) also says only "1st couple cast." Keller and Shimer use Bentley's reconstruction, changing the cast to read: "1st couple drop partner's hand and, keeping hands with neighbor, cast down into second place, 2nd couple backing up and moving into first place." Pat Ruggiero ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:22:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:22:23 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000701c00d37$76f7af40$c9981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In the fall of 1986, the Baltimore group sponsored a workshop with Christine Helwig wherein she taught that version or something very close to it. Unfortunately, she did not hand out copies of the original instructions from which she derived her reconstruction. The original version that I have (Caledonian Country Dances, 3d ed., Johnson 1750) does not suggest her reconstruction. __________ The first Cu. Back to Back with the 2d Cu. & then with their own partners; the first Cu. turn the 2d Cu. then turn their own; Meet all four and sett then turn single and clap hands all 4 going quite round; and then the first Cu. go the figure thru the 2d Cu. & cross over and turn their own partners. __________ Colin Hume presented the above version in the Washington area a few years ago; I have forgotten to whom he attributed the interpretation. The modern version that I recall doing in the Washington area does not have a circle. I forget whose reconstruction we used, but I have always assumed that the reason the circle was omitted was because the "meet all four and sett" was interpreted to be two separate actions, requiring 4 bars of music. If the meeting and setting occur at the same time, then only two bars are needed, leaving 4 bars in which to Turn Single moving directly into a circle; furthermore, setting inward enables the dancers to TS (or cast) back out to the set lines for the circle. Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of CF1125-AT- aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:06 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Easter Thursday At Pinewoods Campers' Week (last week), Robin Rogers-Browne presented a wonderful version of Easter Thursday. She said that she got it from a dancer from Utah who assumed it was the standard version of the dance. This dancer attributed it to Christine Helwig, although Robin wasn't sure of how closely it was associated with her. In any event, Robin was somewhat unsure of some details, but after some discussion and trial-and-error we came up with the following dance, done to the usual Easter Thursday tune. I found it irresistible. It eliminates the awkward nine-count 2-hand turns in the beginning of the dance, alters the balances somewhat, and keeps the sweeping ending. I'd be interested in knowing 1) if anyone else is aware of this version, 2) did our tweaking changed it in any meaningful way from what is already out there, 3) where did it actually come from, and 4) what the ECD community thinks of it. Try it - you'll like it! Carl Friedman Easter Thursday Duple minor improper A1: (1-3) Neighbors gypsy R shoulder (4-6) Partners gypsy L shoulder A2: (1-3) Neighbors turn R-hand (4-6) Partners turn L-hand B1: (1-2) All face into ring, balance in and out* (without taking hands) (3-4) All cast R into ring, taking hands (5-6) Circle L (back to original places) B2: (1-4) 1s 1/2-figure 8 down, cross (above 2s) and cast (2s moving up) (5-6) All 2-hand turn partner (*Robin suggested balance out and in, as with the usual version - either seems to work, but in and out makes more sense to me) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:18:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:20:44 -0400 From: Lou Vosteen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >As I was working out a dance program this past week, the following question >popped in my mind: > >How does one call a gender free ladies chain? > >Lou When I posed the question, I was working on a square figure where all four "ladies" chain half way. The comments about designating which corners are chaining are helpful and that should work well in all line dance situations. Being a generally "traditional" caller, it just hadn't occured to me. Actually I rather like the "corner" idea because, as in many dance groups, we often have a surplus of "ladies" and I know it's a challenge for them to remember their gender when they keep switching roles. I guess in a square, I'll have to define the right-hand persons of each couple as "the chainers" and then I can use the simple prompt "chain." Thanks, Lou ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:04:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:04:06 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000101c00d6f$954d0e80$e2981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul Stamler wrote: "In the northeast, where gender-free dancers use armbands to designate the person dancing the traditional man's part, it would be "bare-arms chain" or "bares chain". [snip to end] Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't use sex-based terms but you don't use positional terminology either. The calling is still based on roles. You substitute some arbitrary terms for the sex-based terms, and then you use physical aids to distinguish roles. I find it hard to accept that "bare-arms chain" is a better term than "ladies chain," both from the calling orientation that you have adopted and from the sense and sound of the words. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:07:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:06:08 -0400 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39A458E0.20701.4480A3-AT- localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > a surplus of "ladies" An oxymoron. We never have a surplus of ladies, although, we may well have a shortage of men. ;-) ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:43:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:43:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: when did the cast-off change? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000824034340.11308.qmail-AT- web3303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > > j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote: > > > Here's another question for the dance history experts. > > When did the cast-off figure (as in 'first couple down the > > center, return and cast-off into 2nd place) change from the > > unassisted cast we generally see in ECD to the assisted cast > > common in contra dance (either hand-cast or arms-around > > waists)? > --- Benjamin Stein wrote: > Not quite sure. There are a number of local variants of the > cast off. The "unassisted" one-fairly common in ECD. The > assisted one: not unknown in ECD (i.e. Dublin Bay) and the one > used by the Larkin Dancers (a Vermont demo group started in the > 1930's to show a "kind of" late 19th century Vermont Style > Contra dance) who have the actives back around the ones below: > sort of a mirror do-si-do. To the best of my knowledge the > assisted cast off came into common use in the folk dance groups > shortly after world war II. The new dancers didn't know how to > do a cast off and the leaders used the "assist" as a teaching > method and it caught on to the point that modern dancers don't > think you know what to do if you don't fling an arm around the > waist. Well-enough of my soap box! > The cast-off certainly varies by community and teacher. One of the things that I have experienced in some contra communities is when there is a line of four down the center and back followed by a cast, many people think they have to let go of the hand they are already holding and grab the person around the waist to do the cast off because that is the *only* way thay have ever been taught to do a cast. To touch on an earlier question, I've done right-and-left-through as everything from what is essentially a circular hey with hands, to crossing over and wheeling around a common pivot without touching while shoulder to shoulder. A variant of the latter, taught by Dudley Laufman his first year at Pinewoods, was that the second man would delay his crossing and then cross the empty center of the set alone with some sort of fancy stepping, moving diagonally to his new place. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:47:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:47:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000824034725.11637.qmail-AT- web3303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Rich Galloway wrote: > > a surplus of "ladies" > > An oxymoron. We never have a surplus of ladies, although, we > may well have a shortage of men. ;-) > On the other hand, some nights there is a shortage of women. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:51:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:50:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000824035053.11958.qmail-AT- web3303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Paul Stamler wrote: > > "In the northeast, where gender-free dancers use armbands to > designate the person dancing the traditional man's part, it > would be "bare-arms chain" or "bares chain". [snip to end] > --- Patricia Ruggiero wrote: > Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't use sex-based > terms but you don't use positional terminology either. The > calling is still based on roles. You substitute some arbitrary > terms for the sex-based terms, and then you use physical aids > to distinguish roles. > > I find it hard to accept that "bare-arms chain" is a better > term than "ladies chain," both from the calling orientation > that you have adopted and from the sense and sound of the > words. > Which begs that question, "Do bears chain in the woods?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:12:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:15:57 -0700 From: Marian Phillips Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01c00d8a$62867200$7cecadce-AT- default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Patricia Ruggiero wrote: >>The calling is still based on roles. You substitute some arbitrary terms for the sex-based terms, and then you use physical aids to distinguish roles. . . .I find it hard to accept that "bare-arms chain" is a better term than "ladies chain," << I think I'd have to disagree with you on some points. What all these different forms of calling have in common is that they give directions to particular dancers, based on descriptions of those dancers. The difference is that two of the calling systems are always accurate in the way they describe the dancers, and the other is almost always inaccurate. Describing dancers based on their starting position is accurate; describing them based on armbands that were assigned at the start of the dance is accurate; describing them by gender terms (which assume an equal number of male and female dancers) is, in our time, almost always inaccurate, because there is seldom an equal number of male and female dancers. That system was probably accurate in, say, Jane Austen's time, but at the cost of forcing potential dancers to sit out if a gender slot wasn't open for them in the dance. The current social agreement (which I personally feel is a superior one) is that matching dancers' gender with the old calling system isn't as important as letting everyone dance. That's not to say that I'm crazy about the armband system. I think about what I wear to dances, and what I'm wearing when I arrive is what I *want* to be wearing; I don't want to be adding armbands, or hats, or scarlet letters, or whatever the clothing-based identifier is for the evening. One thing I'm curious about concerning positional identifiers is this: "lady" and "gentleman" do, in fact, contain positional information -- they tell you which side of the line you stand on. Does non-gender position-based calling have an equivalent? Marian ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:14:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:18:27 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <006f01c00d8a$bd0f0520$d998adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <000101c00d6f$954d0e80$e2981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> <<----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Ruggiero Paul Stamler wrote: "In the northeast, where gender-free dancers use armbands to designate the person dancing the traditional man's part, it would be "bare-arms chain" or "bares chain". [snip to end] Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't use sex-based terms but you don't use positional terminology either. The calling is still based on roles. You substitute some arbitrary terms for the sex-based terms, and then you use physical aids to distinguish roles.>> I don't, actually, since I'm not in the northeast and not calling gender-free dances. But the folks in the northeast do. The calling is definitely based on roles, because they're calling the same dances that are called at gendered dances, and those dances (if contras) typically have four different roles -- active and inactive, man and woman. Similarly for squares. So if you're going to dance those dances, you need *some* way to distinguish who's what, so you can figure out who you're supposed to chain, swing or whatever. I should note that modern gender-free contra- and square dancing originated in the lesbian and gay communities of the northeast (mostly around Boston), where same-sex couples are of course the norm. But the idea isn't particularly new -- in the all-male communities of gold miners during the California gold rush, the men would get together and have Saturday night square dances. Either a red bandana or a flower would denote the miner who was dancing as a lady. Happened in cow towns too, when there weren't enough women to go around. In those cases, they kept the standard terms. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:41:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:41:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JTBSYJ5RK69GXLB1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul wrote: I should note that modern gender-free contra- and square dancing originated in the lesbian and gay communities of the northeast (mostly around Boston), where same-sex couples are of course the norm. But the idea isn't particularly new -- in the all-male communities of gold miners during the California gold rush, the men would get together and have Saturday night square dances. Either a red bandana or a flower would denote the miner who was dancing as a lady. Historical note: I have at least one source that says the miners waltzed and polkaed, too. Note that this is, despite having same-sex couples, the opposite of gender-free. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:46:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:46:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JTBT0VNLBW9GXLB1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Marian wrote: One thing I'm curious about concerning positional identifiers is this: "lady" and "gentleman" do, in fact, contain positional information -- they tell you which side of the line you stand on. Does non-gender position-based calling have an equivalent? "Right file" and "left file", sometimes used as "righties" and "lefties." (I think the direction of the file is based on looking down the set from the head, so the "men's line" is "right file". You're still a "rightie" or a "leftie" wherever in the figure you currently happen to be standing, so that you could call a "lefties chain." -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:12:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:12:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Paul Stamler wrote: [snip] > I should note that modern gender-free contra- and square dancing originated > in the lesbian and gay communities of the northeast (mostly around Boston), > where same-sex couples are of course the norm. But the idea isn't > particularly new -- in the all-male communities of gold miners during the > California gold rush, the men would get together and have Saturday night > square dances. Either a red bandana or a flower would denote the miner who > was dancing as a lady. Happened in cow towns too, when there weren't enough > women to go around. In those cases, they kept the standard terms. I'm curious about your sources of information about this, Paul. How did you learn this? Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:13:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:13:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Marian wrote: > > One thing I'm curious about concerning positional identifiers is this: > "lady" and "gentleman" do, in fact, contain positional information -- they > tell you which side of the line you stand on. Does non-gender > position-based calling have an equivalent? > > "Right file" and "left file", sometimes used as "righties" and "lefties." > > (I think the direction of the file is based on looking down the set from > the head, so the "men's line" is "right file". You're still a "rightie" > or a "leftie" wherever in the figure you currently happen to be standing, > so that you could call a "lefties chain." The difficuty I have with "right file" and "left file" and the corresponding "righties" and "lefties" is that there is no stable reference point. While it is fine for the caller to say "what is traditionally the men's line is on my right as I face down the hall, so I'll call them the right file," the normal position for the dancer is to be facing across, facing one's partner, and there right and left relative to the person receiving the information have no relation at all to "right file" & "left file." Furthermore, when the dancers take the second most common (by my guess) position of facing up, the right file is on the left and vice-versa; the man is on the left of the lady in traditionally-paired couples, and thus there's enough default information which is contrary to the usage Alan describes to create considerable confusion and uncertainty, and for many folks at best a considerable delay as they process the information. For me, it's what I call a "coin toss" situation -- the basic rule is essentially arbitrary (i.e. is it the caller's point of view or the dancers'?) and there is enough mental processing from that information to render the result essentially random for decisions required in the time available. Since "right" and "left" are already used extensively in dance contexts, and some folks already have difficulty even with that, it seems highly inappropriate to introduce a new label using these words which have a different meaning. I, at least, have trouble with it. I don't have trouble with "men" and "women" used as role labels when I am dancing either role, because there is an intrinsic reference point (i.e. I know whether I'm dancing my intrinsic role or not), and I don't subscribe to the idea that it is somehow derogatory to use a role label which is opposite to one's own gender. To do that, in my mind, is equivalent to a belief that one gender is somehow inferior to the other. I reject that proposition, and I accept either gender-based role designation with equal respect and feel that they carry with them equal honor and distinction. For me, there's just one bit (literally, in the digital logical sense) of information which I need to deal with to interpret the calls correctly when they are based on gender role identification, and that is whether I am dancing my intrinsic role or not. This is something about which I am least likely to be confused, and so gender'based calls are most helpful to me regardless of the role I'm in. I feel that those dancers who can dance either role well are the most accomplished, and that therefore the opportunity to dance in the "other" role is special and an opportunity to be fully appreciated and enjoyed. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:46:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:46:48 -0700 From: srotenbe-AT- impop.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <39A56D97.9D5987A1-AT- mailbox.bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Yes, the dance presented at Early Music Week at Pinewoods by Barbara Luke from Utah is a wonderful version of Easter Thursday. The version listed below is not exactly it. I will contact Barbara and get the version she taught. We were all very surprised as she taught it and extremely pleased with the results. It eliminated all the need for counting and explaining the unusual timing in the A's. It did not have a two hand turn at the end, which I personally thought was needed to fill out the dance. I'll be back in touch after I speak with Barbara. Sandy Rotenberg CF1125-AT- aol.com wrote: > At Pinewoods Campers' Week (last week), Robin Rogers-Browne presented a > wonderful version of Easter Thursday. She said that she got it from a dancer > from Utah who assumed it was the standard version of the dance. This dancer > attributed it to Christine Helwig, although Robin wasn't sure of how closely > it was associated with her. In any event, Robin was somewhat unsure of some > details, but after some discussion and trial-and-error we came up with the > following dance, done to the usual Easter Thursday tune. I found it > irresistible. It eliminates the awkward nine-count 2-hand turns in the > beginning of the dance, alters the balances somewhat, and keeps the sweeping > ending. I'd be interested in knowing 1) if anyone else is aware of this > version, 2) did our tweaking changed it in any meaningful way from what is > already out there, 3) where did it actually come from, and 4) what the ECD > community thinks of it. Try it - you'll like it! > > Carl Friedman > > Easter Thursday > > Duple minor improper > > A1: (1-3) Neighbors gypsy R shoulder > (4-6) Partners gypsy L shoulder > > A2: (1-3) Neighbors turn R-hand > (4-6) Partners turn L-hand > > B1: (1-2) All face into ring, balance in and out* (without taking hands) > (3-4) All cast R into ring, taking hands > (5-6) Circle L (back to original places) > > B2: (1-4) 1s 1/2-figure 8 down, cross (above 2s) and cast (2s moving up) > (5-6) All 2-hand turn partner > > (*Robin suggested balance out and in, as with the usual version - either > seems to work, but in and out makes more sense to me) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:50:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:54:20 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <003701c00de3$92171f20$b896adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: << > I should note that modern gender-free contra- and square dancing originated > in the lesbian and gay communities of the northeast (mostly around Boston), > where same-sex couples are of course the norm. But the idea isn't > particularly new -- in the all-male communities of gold miners during the > California gold rush, the men would get together and have Saturday night > square dances. Either a red bandana or a flower would denote the miner who > was dancing as a lady. Happened in cow towns too, when there weren't enough > women to go around. In those cases, they kept the standard terms. I'm curious about your sources of information about this, Paul. How did you learn this?>> Oh lord, years and years ago, in a history of the gold rush whose title escaped my mind long since. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:36:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:36:48 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: English Dance Message-ID: <000801c00de9$7f9339f0$72981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Three different items here: 1) It occurred to me after I'd sent the message discussing Christine Helwig's presentation of the dance in 1986 that I've never known whether that version was *her* reconstruction or *someone else's* that she was offering to the group. 2) Has anyone tried "Katharine Street," from Walsh 1718, found in Fried Herman's _Ease and Elegance_? Same figures, wording exactly as Johnson 1750. Music is 32 bars, 6/8 time, for a total of 64 steps. I've never danced it; but, analyzing it on paper, I'd guess that having the "usual" 4 bars (8 steps) for the 2-hand turns and the back-to-backs would feel *more natural* than the 3-bar, 9-step execution. On the other hand, the B2 (1/2 fig 8, cross, cast, and 2-hand turn) only gets 16 steps instead of the slightly greater 18, and could thus be a bit more difficult to accomplish. I wonder if the dance figures appeared with other tunes in the years between 1718 and 1750..... 3) A couple of folks have observed that, while executing the 2-hand turn in 9 steps is somewhat awkward, the same is not true for the gypsies and the 1-hand turns of the Utah version. I wonder why that is so? I've not danced the Helwig/Utah version since 1986 so I can't, right now, grasp the difference. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:13:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:13:16 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Easter Thursday has never fit that music, and my understanding is that it was never published with that music. I believe, Jacqueline Schwab, among others, has the scoop. To me it's always been an example of a ditzy dance to fine tune, but the awkwardness of fitting the b-to-bs to the music makes me sit down whenever it's called. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:33:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:33:45 -0600 From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >To me it's always been an example of a ditzy dance to fine tune, but the >awkwardness of fitting the b-to-bs to the music makes me sit down whenever >it's called. Whenever I watch our dancers struggling with Easter Thursday (and that's with Barbara Luke calling it) I wish someone would write a better dance for the tune. I wonder if Barbara has modified her version since she last called it here. Being in the band, I can't remember how she calls it usually. Also, I can't tell why the dancers are having a problem. The moves do go across the music, so maybe that's something that Pinewood dancers can cope with that our dancers can't. Anyway, there's a challenge. Write another dance for the tune Easter Thursday. Emma - Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840 (801) 585-1926 (office) (801) 585-9425 (lab) (801) 581-4668 (fax) rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:53:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:53:06 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Actually there are some very nice possibilities. If you make the b-to-b in only two bars and all cloverleaf ts, then b-to-b the other way and all ts the other way the first section is not so clumsy. I'm glad to see others struggle with that dance. I've disliked it as we do it for many year, and there's really no distinctive figure to salvage it. I think for many the salvage feature is struggling to fit those b-to-bs into the wrong amount of music. In this case I've never believed that it was a mark of a good dancer to make a poor combination of dance and melody look acceptable. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:17:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:17:02 -0600 From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Actually there are some very nice possibilities. If you make the b-to-b in >only two bars and all cloverleaf ts, then b-to-b the other way and all ts >the other way the first section is not so clumsy. you are still dancing across the music if you do this. The 6-bar A tune falls naturally into 3 two-bar sections. Bars 3 and 4 are a repeat of bars 1 and 2 a 3rd lower. What you describe would fit like this: 1-2 back to back 3-4 turn single, begin next back to back 5-6 finish back to back, turn single All versions of the dance I've seen here involve trying to make the dancers do 2 (or 4) things when the music clearly says to do three things of 6 steps each. We have been told as a band to emphasise the beginning of the 4th bar and downplay the beginnings of bars 3 and 5. This is pretty painful for us and doesn't help the dancers as far as I can tell. I repeat my challenge. An entirely new dance for that lovely tune, please! Emma - Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840 (801) 585-1926 (office) (801) 585-9425 (lab) (801) 581-4668 (fax) rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:04:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:03:57 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ah yes, Sorry my notes weren't immediately to mind. Try this: 1-2 all b-to-b on line 3-4 all b-to-b across 5-6 all cloverleaf ts. 1-2 all 2-hnd trn on line 3-4 all 2-hnd trn across 5-6 all cloverleaf ts Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:22:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:22:32 -0600 From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MUCH better. I wonder if I can persuade Barbara to try it. >Ah yes, Sorry my notes weren't immediately to mind. > >Try this: > >1-2 all b-to-b on line >3-4 all b-to-b across >5-6 all cloverleaf ts. > >1-2 all 2-hnd trn on line >3-4 all 2-hnd trn across >5-6 all cloverleaf ts > >Emily L. Ferguson >elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 >New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography >Beetle cats on the web at: >http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html >http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm >http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html - Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840 (801) 585-1926 (office) (801) 585-9425 (lab) (801) 581-4668 (fax) rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:30:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:30:32 -0400 From: Howard Markham Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD in Chipping-Campden and Environs? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000201c00e0a$26a58f20$91981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks to Roger Broseus and two private correspondents for replies to my recent query. Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:26:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:26:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000824232608.973.qmail-AT- web3302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Eric Arnold wrote: > > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing > wrote: > > > Marian wrote: > > > "lady" and "gentleman" do, in fact, contain positional > > >information -- they tell you which side of the line you > > >stand on. Does non-gender position-based calling have an > > >equivalent? > > > > "Right file" and "left file", sometimes used as "righties" > > and "lefties." > > > > The difficuty I have with "right file" and "left file" and the > corresponding "righties" and "lefties" is that there is no > stable reference point. While it is fine for the caller to say > "what is traditionally the men's line is on my right as I face > down the hall, so I'll call them the right file," the normal > position for the dancer is to be facing across, facing one's > partner, and there right and left relative to the person > receiving the information have no relation at all to "right > file" & "left file." Furthermore, when the dancers take the > second most common (by my guess) position of facing up, the > right file is on the left and vice-versa; the man is on the > left of the lady in traditionally-paired couples, and thus > there's enough default information which is contrary to the > usage Alan describes to create considerable confusion and > uncertainty, and for many folks at best a considerable delay as > they process the information. > > Since "right" and "left" are already used extensively in dance > contexts, and some folks already have difficulty even with > that, it seems highly inappropriate to introduce a new label > using these words which have a different meaning. I, at least, > have trouble with it. > > I don't have trouble with "men" and "women" used as role > labels when I am dancing either role, because there is an > intrinsic reference point (i.e. I know whether I'm dancing my > intrinsic role or not), and I don't subscribe to the idea that > it is somehow derogatory to use a role label which is > opposite to one's own gender. > Thank you, Eric, for putting this more eloquently than I could. I got blasted earlier for some things I said concerning gender-free calls. To me there is a distinct difference between "gender-free" calls and what Vicki terms "geographical" calls and I *have* been on the receiving end of a teacher spending five minutes trying to find gender-free words to describe an instruction when using a gendered term would explain it in one word. I have *no* problem with geographical calls and in fact they are very useful when brief, as they can often be processed faster. The very first time I ever heard about gender-free dances was in relation to the announcement of an upcoming dance put on by the Gay community in Hartford, probably about 15 years ago. Although I can undertand Vicki's explanation of how some of her teenaged students had problems with gender terms (not a problem I remember encountering when I was a teen), I still say that the "gender-free" movement is a relatively recent (PC) development to eliminate traditional gender roles from the tradition because somebody conceives them to be insulting. I also agree with Eric that eliminating gender somehow implies that there is something "wrong" with being of a particular gender. (Gays are just as aware of their gender, and that of their partner, as straights are.) I know Gay people who have been a part of the ECD community much longer than I have and they use "men" and "women" in their teaching and, as far as I have ever been aware, they aren't uncomfortable with using gender terms. As for Alan asking earlier, in a discussion of tradition, how long ECD has been on the East Coast and concluding "90 years": Since our Early American dances grew out of the country dances that were brought over during our Colonial times, I would venture that ECD may very well have come over to the lost colony of Roanoke prior to the 1607 Jamestown settlement. We'll never really know seeing as how there were no survivors. It may only be 90 years (give or take) since Cecil Sharp introduced his interpretations to the world, but the tradition of ECD in America, though forgotten for many years, goes well beyond Cecil Sharp's students (May Gadd, Lilly Conant and others) who taught in East Coast cities during the 20th Century. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:37:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:37:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000825003737.8316.qmail-AT- web3301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Emily L. Ferguson" wrote: > Easter Thursday has never fit that music, and my understanding > is that it was never published with that music. I believe, > Jacqueline Schwab, among others, has the scoop. > If they were never published together, how and when did the dance and music get put together? Anybody have a copy of Fallibrome 5 that they can look at? That is the source for dance and music according to Peter Rogers' Country Dance Index (1986). Since many people have problems fitting the dance to the tune, has anyone tried to find a more suitable tune?? > To me it's always been an example of a ditzy dance to fine > tune, but the awkwardness of fitting the b-to-bs to the music > makes me sit down whenever it's called. > I've always like the dance. Reel Nutmeg used to perform it and I can remember us working very hard on it. It's about the only dance I can remember myself conciously counting the phrasing while learning it. I actually like the novelty of the figures going across the phrase. It isn't really that exciting a dance otherwise. I found two sets of ball instructions from sometime in the mid-80's that have EasterThursday on them. They don't indicate on them which balls they are; I think one of them is Brattleboro. A-1 Neighbors gypsy R shoulder; Partners gypsy L shoulder A-2 Neighbors turn; Partners turn B-1 All balance back, then converge 4 steps" (odd timing here but that's what the instructions say; should be three steps back and three forward) set R, L, then turn single B-2 1's half figure 8 down, cross, go below (2's moving up), all turn partner Note - gypsy replaces back to back following C. Helwig As I said, I'm not sure whose ball instructions these are. The "Note" was part of the instructions. I've run into several variations on this dance in different locations. Andy in Portland OR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:49:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JTCT5WL0LE9GV69N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy wrote: Andy wrote: > > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing > wrote: > > > Marian wrote: > > > "lady" and "gentleman" do, in fact, contain positional > > >information -- they tell you which side of the line you > > >stand on. Does non-gender position-based calling have an > > >equivalent? > > > > "Right file" and "left file", sometimes used as "righties" > > and "lefties." > > > > [snippage of Eric's post about difficulties with "righties" and "lefties." I should perhaps have used "zebras" and "giraffes", which was recommended over on the English ceilidh list for calling to children who often prefer to dance with their same-sex pals. Or "Red Team" and "Blue Team," but I was replying to Marian's question about the equivalent I've heard used.] >I got blasted earlier for some things I said concerning >gender-free calls. To me there is a distinct difference between >"gender-free" calls and what Vicki terms "geographical" calls I am unclear about what distinction you're making between "gender-free" and "geographical" calls. If the geographical calls work right, they don't specify gender. Can you clarify? >and I *have* been on the receiving end of a teacher spending >five minutes trying to find gender-free words to describe an >instruction when using a gendered term would explain it in one >word. This would be an example of a teacher doing a bad job. (That teacher should have thought about it beforehand, not waste five minutes of dancer time struggling because of being unprepared.) I don't think this is categorical proof that gender-free calling is inherently bad. (Actually, what move was it? Since English words don't have gender, I'd think you'd need at least two words to name a move that's done by people of one sex; eg "ladies chain.") [I must say that, while I would gladly temporarily drop 'man' and 'woman' from my calling vocabulary if I were hired to do a gender-free event, I'm happy to use them where appropriate. I do like geographical calling ("first corners do this") for clarity, and I certainly say "partners turn two hands" rather than "men turn their partners", but my ordinarily calling is at least somewhat be-gendered. I am not trying to tell you that you must like, or participate in, gender-free dancing; I'm arguing with your specific complaints.] >The very first time I ever heard about gender-free >dances was in relation to the announcement of an upcoming dance >put on by the Gay community in Hartford, probably about 15 years >ago. Although I can undertand Vicki's explanation of how some of >her teenaged students had problems with gender terms (not a >problem I remember encountering when I was a teen), I still say >that the "gender-free" movement is a relatively recent (PC) >development to eliminate traditional gender roles from the >tradition because somebody conceives them to be insulting. No. Gender-free supporters aren't, as far as I know, going around to what one might call traditional dances and demanding that they change anything, so I don't think you can say that they're trying to eliminate anything from the tradition. They are expanding the audience for traditional dance by creating alternative venues where those who feel constrained by traditional gender roles can participate without feeling that constraint. Can you spell out what's wrong with that, or what you dislike about it? (As distinct from your possibly not personally enjoying participating in it.) >As for Alan asking earlier, in a discussion of tradition, how >long ECD has been on the East Coast and concluding "90 years": >Since our Early American dances grew out of the country dances >that were brought over during our Colonial times, I would >venture that ECD may very well have come over to the lost colony >of Roanoke prior to the 1607 Jamestown settlement. We'll never >really know seeing as how there were no survivors. It may only >be 90 years (give or take) since Cecil Sharp introduced his >interpretations to the world, but the tradition of ECD in >America, though forgotten for many years, goes well beyond Cecil >Sharp's students (May Gadd, Lilly Conant and others) who taught >in East Coast cities during the 20th Century. This is a little thin. First, I didn't ask how long ECD had been on the East Coast; I asked how deep the ECD tradition was on the East Coast, in the context of your arguing that gender-free stuff had seemed to arise because of a lack of local knowledge about deep traditions. People who've read my posts on this list for a while are excruciatingly aware that I know ECD wasn't invented 90 years ago, and that ECD was part of colonial dance. I have to contend that the relevant tradition is the EFDSS-led revival. Few but scholars are aware of defunct traditions. I can't accept that doing the dances as hobbyists, ceasing to track social status so that the highest-ranking woman in the room leads the first dance, and doing a very minimum of stepping is really a continuation of the tradition where this was part of everyone's life, where stepping was done, where social status was embedded in the format of a ball. For that matter, if you want to argue about gender-free calling vs. the other kind, you should acknowledge that you didn't have _callers_ doing ECD until the revival. Modern ECD in Boston is at best 90 years old. (It's at best 100 years old anywhere.) Gender-free dance in Hartford, by your account, is at least 15 years old. Therefore, this new, untraditional genre is at least one-sixth as old as the old traditional genre. I don't think harrumphing about the untraditionalness of the genre is going to be a compelling argument for very long, if it's even one now. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:59:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:59:16 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000201c00e38$12d12df0$60991c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Emily Ferguson wrote: "Easter Thursday has never fit that music, and my understanding is that it was never published with that music. I believe, Jacqueline Schwab, among others, has the scoop." Well, this has all the makings of a Whodonit. Who combined the 3/2 tune with the instructions to create the dance we have today? Recall that in an earlier message I posted the original instructions from Johnson 1750. It is very true, however, that at the time I copied these instructions, I did NOT take note of the tune. Maddening! But then -- Andy Peterson asks about Fallibroome Bk. 5. Yes, Bentley has these two together and says, in a note at the end, "B1 a clap and hands four has been omitted." His source for the dance is _Complete English Dancing Master_; in his intro to Bk. 5 he says "There is no title page but the date 1733 is on the spine." Now Fallibroome has various deficiencies, the most irritating, in my opinion, being the omission of the original instructions; but Bentley does tell us how and where he changed the dances, and I think if he had combined the dance figures with a different tune, or vice versa, he would have said so. But let's say he did combine the figures of one dance with the tune of another and didn't tell us, and that Emily has alerted us to that fact. Now what? Can Emily, or someone else, prevail upon Jackie to tell us what is going on with this dance? If these figures go with another tune [see my earlier post about "Katharine Street], I'd like to know it. If this tune has a different set of figures, I think we'd all like to know what they are before folks begin rewriting the current dance. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:22:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:21:44 -0400 From: "Michael L. Siemon" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <000201c00e38$12d12df0$60991c3f-AT- MITRE.org> >If these figures go with another tune [see my earlier post about "Katharine >Street], I'd like to know it. If this tune has a different set of figures, >I think we'd all like to know what they are before folks begin rewriting the >current dance. I've done Katherine Street (to Fried's calling, and perhaps others such as Paul Ross.) I find it rather dull and pointless. However, I must put in a vote against the apparent ECD-list consensus, since I _like_ the way the "usual" choreography in Easter Thursday works with & against the tune. Someone (maybe it was Gene Murrow? or Scott Higgs? I don't recall) once suggested that one see the 9-count moves as 3-each on the sides of a triangle. Of course, that wants to be "rounded" and made to flow -- but it touched a historical resonance in me with "tempus perfectum" in early music, where "perfect time" is triple measure triply divided. But I am also a sucker for slip jigs! :-). There is the same _kind_ of metric play in this case as in galliard hemiolas. I really _do_ like the standard Easter Thursday, up to the last part of the dance, where the half-figure below feels too rushed, and Fried's notion that it should be skipped or skip-changed strikes me as an arbitrary way to "force" in Fried's insistence on "textural" change during a dance (and is not really a solution to the problems of that move, in any case.) Michael Siemon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:22:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:30:26 -0700 From: paul/victoria bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000824193026.00819b70-AT- oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 11:33 AM 8/24/2000 -0600, you wrote: >>To me it's always been an example of a ditzy dance to fine tune, but the >>awkwardness of fitting the b-to-bs to the music makes me sit down whenever >>it's called. > >Whenever I watch our dancers struggling with Easter Thursday (and that's >with Barbara Luke calling it) I wish someone would write a better dance for >the tune. Someone has. Don Lennertson's dance to the tune is quite nice, is unrelated to all Easter Thursday versions and IT FITS THE MUSIC! Victoria Check out our WEB site, at http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/ Read about our trip to the Rockies..... See the portfolio from Northwest New Year's Camp..... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:48:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:52:22 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <003601c00e3f$7f6926a0$9098adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000824232608.973.qmail-AT- web3302.mail.yahoo.com> <> Alan, I disagree; I don't think there's anything like a widespread movement to replace gendered calling and dancing with gender-free, other than in the specific situations where it makes sense -- when most of the couples are same-sex, either in lesbian/gay community dances or in high-school-type settings. There is a small movement in the contra community to call evenly to the men and women, rather than addressing calls entirely to men (the obvious example of the latter being "chain those ladies" rather than "ladies' chain", as if most of the work in that move was being done by the men rather than the women). But that's a separate issue, and it's more about focussing on who's really doing what, and with which, and to whom, rather than assuming that the men are leading the women, which (in contra and ECD) mostly they aren't. Gender-free dancing is a whole 'nother movement, and it's really pretty specialized. The one time I did it, it was also fun -- a new kind of dance experience. Not better, not worse, just different. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:18:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:54:41 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000824.231323.-825423.31.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This discussion has been very helpful to me, as I've been converting to "geographic" and "gender-free" teaching/prompting in nearly all situations over the last few years (thanks largely to a discussion with Vicky Bestock at Pinewoods several years ago). The primary reasons are its clarity and cogency. That it makes the teaching/prompting more comfortable for folks dancing in opposite sex roles is an added benefit. Recently I've been challenged by several all-newcomer groups or mostly same-sex groups interested in learning ECD. When introducing the longways, the approach I've used that seems to work well is to start by having everyone form 2 facing lines. I then say "the person facing you is your partner." Then I do a few simple dances that avoid any need for gender ID, progressions, etc. At some point, I say "historically, the men danced on this [pointing] side, and the women on this [pointing] side. So the folks on this side [pointing] are dancing the traditional men's role, the folks on this side [pointing] are dancing the traditional women's role, but you'll find this doesn't matter." At this point, some couples who were standing improper switch over, but some don't! Same-sex couples seem to have no trouble... there's no scurrying around to break them up or whatever. I've established that I'm referring to *roles* not sex/gender. I have always been uncomfortable hearing a woman say "I'm a man." "I'm dancing the man's role" seems saner. On occasion I use gender terms for all the good reasons noted: they do carry positional information, they can use fewer words, etc.,. One example is the opening of The Bishop. I teach it by saying "In the 1st couple, the person dancing the man's role cast..." During the dance I prompt it by saying "first man cast." The extra verbiage during the teaching reinforces the inherent gender-free nature of ECD patterns, and since it's rare enough I don't mind the expenditure of the extra words once during the teaching. Besides, for someone who doesn't know the pattern, the lengthier description which starts by identifying the first couple, gives his/her ears more time to tune in and neurons more time to fire and figure out who I'm actually talking about. Then folks are subsequently quite comfortable with "first man..." as it's clear I'm talking about roles. Once groups get used to this I can teach/call on the fly (no walk-thru dances) directly using "first woman" or "third man" or "men's hey" for those rare necessary times, and there's no problem, even with couples dancing on the improper side. Alan, how about a page on the Web site with a geographic/positional "conversion table" e.g.: "1st man turn 2nd woman" = "first corners turn" "ladies chain across" = "2nd corners chain across", etc. Gene (Jean) Murrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:26:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:26:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000825032642.2555.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Paul Stamler wrote: > Alan, I disagree... Actually that is me that you are disagreeing with. Alan had written one of the earlier posts. <> > There is a small movement in the contra community to call > evenly to the men and women, rather than addressing calls > entirely to men (the obvious example of the latter being "chain > those ladies" rather than "ladies' chain", as if most of the > work in that move was being done by the men rather than the > women). I have no problem with that. It isn't a new movement, it's called expediting. The calls are shorter. > But that's a separate issue, and it's more about focussing on > who's really doing what, and with which, and to whom, rather > than assuming that the men are leading the women, which (in > contra and ECD) mostly they aren't. The fact is that, at least in Contra, there are times that the man should lead and most men don't. Ask some of my partners about men who just let go of them after a swing, leaving them to fly off into oblivion, versus my stopping the rotation and guiding them into the next figure. For whatever interpretation you might have of Contra and ECD being equal, its roots are gendered and the men *did* lead, even if they don't today. Isn't that what dancing as a couple implied, historically? I'll say it again, it all boils down to whether people have been taught how to dance or just how to get through the figures. 30+ years ago I was taught to *dance* and that means all the elements like body movement, musical awareness, timing, control, leading and more. > Gender-free dancing is a whole 'nother movement, and it's > really pretty specialized. But there are teachers in the mainstream who think we should all dance gender-free and fail miserably at trying to teach that way. Maybe not where you dance, but I've experienced it. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:27:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:27:27 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <76.277db84.26d7419f-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/25/00 2:22:50 AM, mls-AT- panix.com writes: << I really _do_ like the standard Easter Thursday, up to the last part of the dance, where the half-figure below feels too rushed >> Although I don't like the standard A parts (and thus I prefer the "other" version, with which I started this thread), I love the ending: 1/2 figure 8, cross and cast and 2-hand turn, done at a brisk pace after the stately first 3/4 of the dance, feels like tying up a present with a big ribbon! Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:09:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000825040910.9793.qmail-AT- web3302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Michael L. Siemon" wrote: > ...However, I must put in a vote against the apparent ECD-list > consensus, since I _like_ the way the "usual" choreography in > Easter Thursday works with & against the tune. Someone (maybe > it was Gene Murrow? or Scott Higgs? I don't recall) once > suggested that one see the 9-count moves as 3-each on the sides > of a triangle. Of course, that wants to be "rounded" and made > to flow... <> > That's the way I think of it, too, especially the version(s) that has(ve) the back-to-back figure. > I really _do_ like the standard Easter Thursday, up to the > last part of the dance, where the half-figure below feels too > rushed, and Fried's notion that it should be skipped or > skip-changed strikes me as an arbitrary way to "force" in > Fried's insistence on "textural" change during a dance (and is > not really a solution to the problems of that move, in any > case.) > Are you using a full twelve steps for the half-figure-8, cross and cast? That gives you three steps for each position change and leaves six at the end for the two hand turn with partner. I don't see skipping as making the movement through that part of this dance any easier, but I must defend Fried against your attack on her teaching "textural change" that you feel she is forcing upon you. (If you want forceful, I'm having visions of Genny Shimer teaching longsword at an International weekend in Downingtown, PA years ago and just about running a sword up a guys rear end when he wouldn't move in the circle.) Varying steps is the way we danced years ago. There are many dances that I learned 30+ years ago that were danced with variations of step that I rarely see taught anymore (such as a walked figure followed by a brisk skip which suddenly slows to a walk again; an energetic slipped circle followed by a sedate two hand turn with partner...) and that "textural" change that you seem to resist was one of the things I particularly liked about ECD when I was learning it. I still like it when I find it. Judi Rivkin is one person who does teach that way, but she's been dancing all her life and learned "textural change" as a child. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:20:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:19:47 -0400 From: "Michael L. Siemon" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <76.277db84.26d7419f-AT- aol.com> >In a message dated 8/25/00 2:22:50 AM, mls-AT- panix.com writes: > ><< I really _do_ like the standard Easter Thursday, up to the last part >of the dance, where the half-figure below feels too rushed >> > >Although I don't like the standard A parts (and thus I prefer the "other" >version, with which I started this thread), I love the ending: 1/2 figure 8, >cross and cast and 2-hand turn, done at a brisk pace after the stately first >3/4 of the dance, feels like tying up a present with a big ribbon! > >Carl Friedman Which contrast (between Carl's favorite part of this dance, and my own) simply goes to illustrate that there _is_ no unique way in which these dances we do and (maybe!) love insinuate themselves into our minds and memories. Be _very_ careful when you identify something _you_ don't like, that it may be another dancer's joy! Celebrate human variety! Dancing, and ECD most especially, has been for me a way to do that, because I can get drawn in (despite myself! :-)) to the joys of others by dancing with them in their evident enjoyment -- despite any prejudices I may bring to the occasion. Michael Siemon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:39:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:38:36 -0400 From: "Michael L. Siemon" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000825040910.9793.qmail-AT- web3302.mail.yahoo.com> >but I must defend Fried against your >attack on her teaching "textural change" that you feel she is >forcing upon you. Oh, dear. that was not my intent, at all! I think that Fried sometimes overdoes it, but in general her sensitivity to the subtle play of more and less vigorous movement, of even versus broken movements, is one of the great lessons of her teaching and choreography! A classic example comes in the first part of "Rose of Sharon" in which the "rights and lefts variant" has a slow half-turn by the right, followed by a (necessarily, and wonderfully!) faster full turn by the left, and then a reversion to the pace of the first right half-turn. Which then leads to the B movement of the hey, in which there is this _incredible_ tension/release where the first woman approaches her partner and propels him into the conclusion of the hey. >(If you want forceful, I'm having visions of >Genny Shimer teaching longsword at an International weekend in >Downingtown, PA years ago and just about running a sword up a >guys rear end when he wouldn't move in the circle.) I would have loved to see this (though I can well imagine myself as the poor fellow who didn't quite know what he had got himself >into.) My first longsword workshop with Sue Salmons sort of felt >that way! I have always regretted that I came into ECD just too late to have had Genny as a teacher. >Varying steps is the way we danced years ago. There are many >dances that I learned 30+ years ago that were danced with >variations of step that I rarely see taught anymore (such as a >walked figure followed by a brisk skip which suddenly slows to a >walk again; an energetic slipped circle followed by a sedate two >hand turn with partner...) and that "textural" change that you >seem to resist was one of the things I particularly liked about >ECD when I was learning it. I still like it when I find it. Judi >Rivkin is one person who does teach that way, but she's been >dancing all her life and learned "textural change" as a child. Again, I must protest that I do not mean to "resist" textural changes -- and Fried has been the source of my understanding and relish of these. Just that I think she _sometimes_ imposes such when it is not called for by the dance or the music. Judy Rivkin is a lovely dancer, and we miss her here in NYC. You are lucky to have her there with you. Michael Siemon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:16:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:15:08 -0400 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39A5C89C.31228.E5CC71-AT- localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Which contrast (between Carl's favorite part of this dance, and > my own) simply goes to illustrate that there _is_ no unique way > in which these dances we do and (maybe!) love insinuate themselves > into our minds and memories. Be _very_ careful when you identify > something _you_ don't like, that it may be another dancer's joy! And another lesson to be learned from this is that there is joy to be found in all (well maybe not ____________, ___________, or __________ [you may each fill in the blanks with up to 3 choices]) dances. To me, the best dancers are those that can find that joy and the best callers are those that can lead others to it. And so to Pinewoods . . . ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:04:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:07:53 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <007f01c00e63$31618640$1898adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000825032642.2555.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> <<--- Paul Stamler wrote: > Alan, I disagree... Actually that is me that you are disagreeing with. Alan had written one of the earlier posts.>> Wups -- sorry! [snip] > But that's a separate issue, and it's more about focussing on > who's really doing what, and with which, and to whom, rather > than assuming that the men are leading the women, which (in > contra and ECD) mostly they aren't. <> Sometimes, certainly! Your example of guiding someone after a swing, for example. (I've danced the woman's part with some men like that. Oy.) Or the man's turning the woman as the second half of a ladies' chain. But *mostly* they aren't -- the moves are gender-symmetrical. (Balances, casts, rights-and-lefts, circles, stars.) In some contra moves it's traditional for the woman to take the lead -- half figure eight, for example. And the women lead the men into a hey for four more often than vice versa. So no, while the roots of contra are certainly gendered, I don't think men lead most of the time the way they would in, say, a waltz. In ECD I suspect more moves are man-led, but still my eyes tell me it's mostly symmetrical (I confess I'm mostly watching rather than dancing, since like Emma I'm in the band). <> Amen -- but add "following" to leading, since dancing as a man you will be following too. <<> Gender-free dancing is a whole 'nother movement, and it's > really pretty specialized. But there are teachers in the mainstream who think we should all dance gender-free and fail miserably at trying to teach that way. Maybe not where you dance, but I've experienced it.>> No, I haven't come across them. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:06:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:08:24 -0500 From: simonl-AT- accel.net (Simon Ladell) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39A64597.A9618138-AT- accel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: unsubscribe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 06:41:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:40:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Easter Thursday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Michael L. Siemon wrote: [snip] > Celebrate human variety! Dancing, and ECD most especially, has > been for me a way to do that, because I can get drawn in (despite > myself! :-)) to the joys of others by dancing with them in their > evident enjoyment -- despite any prejudices I may bring to the > occasion. > > Michael Siemon Nicely put, Michael! Thanks! Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:24:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000825164745.5714.qmail-AT- web1602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A clarification. The terms right and left file are used, as I understand it, among some gender-free dances in the NorthWEST, i.e. Oregon and/or Washington State (dancers from that area know more about this - my knowledge comes from previous postings on this list). In the NorthEAST area, where Boston is the primary center of influence on gender-free country dance, I have never heard those terms used. There is also in the Boston area a difference in how gender-free contra and English dances are done. The contra dances use the arm-band method to determine role. In all the English dances I have attended, only dances that are completely symmetrical with respect to partners are danced, eliminating the need to differentiate by gender. Personally, I think this is a loss, since part of the fun of dancing gender-free is the opportunity to take on the role you don't usually do, but I'm not the organizer so it's not my determination to make. Those who have commented on the terminology of gender-free calling from their own personal perspective (i.e. I don't mind or my wife doesn't mind being called the opposite sex, so why should anyone else) are missing the point entirely. These dances and this terminology aren't about your needs, preferences, or comfort level, or those of the majority of people on this list. They have evolved from within the gay community, in order to serve the members of that community. These are very different events from "regular" dances where a few people might adopt the role of the opposite sex in order to make up for an imbalance, but the _norm_ is still men and women paired off, with men dancing one role and women a different one. In that case it makes perfect sense for the few who are dancing a different role to identify as that sex for the purpose of that dance. In gender-free dances there is no such norm. Nor is the norm there simply our norm applied to a gay romantic perspective, i.e. everyone dancing only with their putative romantic type, men with men, women with women. Sex is simply irrelevant to how people partner, and where they locate themselves in the dance. There will be men dancing with men, women with women, women with men but with the regular positions switched, and women with men in what we consider the normal roles, all mixed into a set randomly. That actually makes these dances are more truly social than the usual - when you walk into a gender-free dance, every other person in that room is a potential partner, not just a select few. It should take a very few seconds of thought to realize that using sex-based terminology is not only irrelevant to the reality of the arrangement, but would be hugely confusing. It can be hard enough remembering your own gender role, if you switch back and forth, but imagine being in a set completely randomized by sex, having to ask yourself in the heat of a complicated figure, now who here are the pretend women and who the pretend men? A bit like trying to keep track of all the sex switches in Shakespearian comedy. (In "As You Like It" in Shakespeare's time you'd have a boy playing a woman disguised as a man pretending to be a woman). It makes a lot more sense to develop a genuine visual code, such as the armbands, or use positional cues. Those who have objected to gender-free calling on the grounds that it violates tradition might want to recall that calling dances in ECD is itself a very recent innovation. I may have this wrong - those who know more are welcome to correct me, but my recollection is that calling of square dances didn't emerge until around the 1920's, and was then adopted into contras and even later into ECD. Gender-free dancing, on the other hand has around for a long time. It might not have been acceptable within Jane Austen's sphere, but Thomas Hardy, in "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" describes the young women of the village "footing it" among themselves while the men were still in the fields. It might be worth keeping in mind that while the young people of Jane Austen's social class might have felt that they were dancing for their personal pleasure, the underlying purpose of these activities was to market young women to economically correct husbands (something Austen was acutely aware of). Barbara ===== Do you know about the Hunger Site? Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site. No purchases - all you do is click on the site. Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:54:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:57:34 -0700 From: Jon Berger Subject: Teaching ECD playing To: ecd-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <200008251652.JAA05986-AT- vanzetti.monitor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, ECD list. I'm new here, so my apologies if this is a subject that's come up a thousand times before (though I did check the archives). I'm a fairly experienced ECD musician, and I've volunteered to do something I've never done before: teach a workshop on ECD playing. (This will be at the BACDS fall weekend at Monte Toyon, in case anyone is wondering.) I'd love to get input from anyone who's either taught such a workshop or taken one, with any comments about things that worked, things that didn't work, specific tunes to use or avoid, or any other information that might be helpful. Specifically, I'm wondering: -- How do I deal with differing levels of technical ability, and specifically with differing levels of sight-reading ability? (I realize the obvious answer to the last one is "don't use written music," but that seems awfully drastic.) -- How much music theory do I need to teach in order to get people playing harmonies? -- How do I deal with the number of keyboard players exceeding the number of pianos? -- On the subject of pianos, what the heck am I supposed to teach pianists, anyway, given that I'm not one? -- What are good and bad tunes for environments like this? (I'd assume that "Dublin Bay" would fall into the "bad" category, for instance, though it's one of my favorites in general terms.) Or anything else. People who've taught these workshops, what worked and what do you wish you'd done differently? People who've taken them, what would you have liked to see changed? That sort of thing. ------------------------------- Jon Berger Personal: jberger-AT- monitor.net http://www.monitor.net/~jberger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:36:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:38:55 -0500 From: Loretta Holz Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <013801c00ecc$1b651320$646cd626-AT- lmh.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan Winston said: >(The beginner) was game, but >struggling badly, and I couldn't think of any way to help him; I kept calling, >but the words weren't making sense to him. The other sets were doing okay, but >I felt I had to end his agony after six times Last month I called for a new dance group so I had 43 people of whom only 16 had done ECD. I have always found that the experienced dancers are one of the best assets a caller has--and that night they certainly proved it yet again. Experienced dancers want the dance to work as much as the caller and the band and they are willing to help. My suggestion is that the caller use the willingness to help ensure that everyone has a good time. People learn to dance by example. The beginner can learn a lot from hearing the call then seeing what his/her partner does--and following along. I remember how grateful I was as a beginner when an experienced dancer was willing to dance with me. I suggest the caller do what he/she can do to make sure beginners get experienced partners (I know this is not easy but many wonderful dancers I know go out of their way all the time to do this). The caller should also think of thanking the experienced dancers for asking the beginners to dance. Also, the caller should point out to beginners that they carefully watch their experienced partners for body language cues. Beginners are working much harder when the dance. They would like to take a break when there is a harder dance. Therefore it is helpful if the caller announces when the dancers have lined up for the next dance, the dance AFTER this one will be for more experienced dancers. As a caller, keeping the experienced dancers on your side is really important. I remember one of the most unpleasant experience I have had in ECD. It was the first ECD on a mixed weekend and it was billed as being for beginners. The caller asked the experienced dancers to raise their hands and then asked them to go to the center of the dance floor. They were asked to repeat a "pledge" not to do certain things (I forget the details but as I remember it was a list of things experienced dancers might try to do to help beginners). To me the experience was very distasteful and beginners looked at us as we returned to place wondering (I'm guessing) why experienced dancers needed to be singled out and told how to act. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:31:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:02:30 +0000 From: Phil D'Agostino Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20000825150230.3c9f212c-AT- mum.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to Jon Berger: The only people I know who have experience in teaching ECD musicians' workshops are Peter Barnes, Mary Lea and Jaqueline Schwab ( of "Bare Necessities"). You might email them for advice - contact info is on their website: http://www.sover.net/~marylea/bnhome.htm My personal reaction to your post: (I've taken one workshop - with Peter B and Mary Lea) > -- How do I deal with differing levels of technical ability, and >specifically with differing levels of sight-reading ability? (I realize >the obvious answer to the last one is "don't use written music," but that >seems awfully drastic.) *** re: sight-reading ability. I think you have to be able to read at least a melody(and chord symbols if you play KB), unless of course you have a great ear/memory. The ability to play your instrument with some facility should be a given... > > -- How much music theory do I need to teach in order to get people >playing harmonies? *** None. ECD playing doesn't involve theorizing. Again, I feel the acquired ability to play from a "lead sheet", even if you had to practice it a bit first, is a basic prereq. > > -- How do I deal with the number of keyboard players exceeding the >number of pianos? *** Take turns..? Rotate them. > > -- On the subject of pianos, what the heck am I supposed to teach >pianists, anyway, given that I'm not one? *** Well, I went to the workshop not to learn how to play the piano. Just needed to get a feel for the *style* of ECD playing. You raise a good point, not being a pianist. I learned a lot from listening to other ECD pianists - in person and on recordings. > > -- What are good and bad tunes for environments like this? (I'd assume >that "Dublin Bay" would fall into the "bad" category, for instance, >though it's one of my favorites in general terms.) *** An example from each category: jigs, slip jigs, 4/4s, waltzes, minuets, etc; tempi: slow and medium and fast; There is a section in the back of the "Barnes Book" that I found an excellent tutorial on ECD piano. Good for any ECD pianist to read. >Hello, ECD list. I'm new here, so my apologies if this is a subject >that's come up a thousand times before (though I did check the archives). > >I'm a fairly experienced ECD musician, and I've volunteered to do >something I've never done before: teach a workshop on ECD playing. (This >will be at the BACDS fall weekend at Monte Toyon, in case anyone is >wondering.) I'd love to get input from anyone who's either taught such a >workshop or taken one, with any comments about things that worked, things >that didn't work, specific tunes to use or avoid, or any other >information that might be helpful. > >Or anything else. People who've taught these workshops, what worked and >what do you wish you'd done differently? People who've taken them, what >would you have liked to see changed? That sort of thing. > >------------------------------- >Jon Berger >Personal: jberger-AT- monitor.net >http://www.monitor.net/~jberger > > Phil D'Agostino Systems Engineering-Dept. of Communcations Maharishi University of Management Fairfield, Iowa 52557 641-472-7000 x2001 641-472-1137(Fax) 641-472-1228 Box 1000 (voice Mail) phild-AT- mum.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:36:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:31:40 -0400 From: Sheila Beardslee Bosworth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Other excellent teachers: Gene Murrow NY Margaret Ann Martin CT Marshall Barron CT Pat Petersen (Triangle Park area NC) >The only people I know who have experience in teaching ECD musicians' >workshops >are Peter Barnes, Mary Lea and Jaqueline Schwab ( of "Bare Necessities"). Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilabb-AT- earthlink.net Editor, Boston Early Music News Deadline Aug 20 for Sept 15 issue: events Sept 15-Dec. 31 WEB Calendar www.medieval.org/emfaq/concerts/bemn/ Pavane website www.earlymusicboston.com/pavane 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 VOX 978/263.9926 FAX 978/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:50:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:50:46 -0600 From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Other excellent teachers: Laurie Andres and Kathy Whitesides. Two things they did that made us think: Got us to sing the tune and listen to how we sang it, since you tend to phrase spontaneously while singing, even if phrasing is not your strong point while playing your instrument. Got us to imagine the dance in our heads, ask what kind of feel each part of the dance would have - smooth in this phrase, lively the next. Laurie and Kathy chose tunes we knew already so no time was spent on sight reading. There must be many tunes that almost everybody knows (eg Childgrove). Emma - Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840 (801) 585-1926 (office) (801) 585-9425 (lab) (801) 581-4668 (fax) rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:34:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:33:59 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008260034.TAA15980-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Um, Me, supply the instructions for Freeford Gardens? Gosh, don't I wish... I'm afraid that you could carry my ECD collection in your shirt (or blouse) pocket without anyone noticing. That's one of the reasons I'm lurking in here... trying to increase my knowledge of the material, myself. American dances I can be of help with. Oops, musn't let those prepositions dangle... With American dances, I can be of help. Roger Diggle Who is wishing he weren't back from vacation to answer this... Gary D. Shapiro wrote: >Since I can't get the tune for Freeford Gardens out of my head, I'd >at least like to know how the dance goes. According to the liner >notes in the English Country Dance Collection Volume 3, the sheet of >instructions "has been widely duplicated and circulated in the >States." Well, not wide enough. >If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily >Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 18:00:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 18:25:47 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000825.205602.-825423.41.gmurrow-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Barbara Greenberg (of Hold the Mustard in NJ) is another musician who has taught several *excellent* Band workshops. [I've done a few dozen in my time, and will snail-mail you (Jon) piles of hand-outs, tune lists, band books, etc., if you'll privately email your address to me. But... I'm off to English Week tomorrow morning (as is Barbara), so it will have to wait until afterwards.] Gene Murrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Permanent address: - for your Address book ISP of the moment: - "Reply" button destination ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 18:23:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 18:25:49 -0700 From: Marian Phillips Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01c00efc$913e4aa0$1eebadce-AT- default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I remember a coworker at Pinewoods one summer who took a band class even though she had just started to play her instrument and couldn't read music. She said the class was very helpful nonetheless, because the instructor had her playing single-note harmony as backup to the melody players. It sounded like an excellent idea to me, since my technical skills aren't always good enough to allow me to play the melody at dance speed; learning skills for playing backup harmonies and such would be a useful thing to come away with from a class, and the level of complexity could be modulated for almost any skill level, I should think. You might consider coming up with three different types of things that people could do with a tune, based on their skill level: a) play melody; b) play really simple harmony; c) play somewhat more complex harmonies. Then, especially for b) and c), explain how they do it, play examples for them to imitate, etc. That, anyway, is what would make such a class way useful for someone at my level . . . Marian ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:12:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:12:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Gender free calls To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JTEG87HSYW9GYJ1V-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy wrote: >and I *have* been on the receiving end of a teacher spending >five minutes trying to find gender-free words to describe an >instruction when using a gendered term would explain it in one >word. (Yes, I'm replying to the same post twice.) Reading this again, it looks like you're emphasizing this because you feel that your experience was being ignored or denied. That was not my intention in citing a counterexample when you said, basically, that you'd never encountered a good gender-free caller. I believe you. I agree that you haven't. My point was only that there *are* good ones. I hope that clears up a little of the talking-past-each-other part of this discussion. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:47:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 01:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000826082337.16386.qmail-AT- web3304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Loretta Holz wrote: > ...I suggest the caller do what he/she can do to make sure > beginners get experienced partners The caller should also think > of thanking the experienced dancers for asking the beginners to > dance. Also, the caller should point out to beginners that > they carefully watch their experienced partners for body > language cues. > ...and not just their partners. It also helps to emphasize eye contact as a way of getting cues from other dancers, too. Understandably, most beginners have a hard time looking at the eyes of a stranger, but if they get in the habit of avoiding eye contact it will be a hard habit to change later. > Beginners are working much harder when they dance. They would > like to take a break when there is a harder dance. Therefore > it is helpful if the caller announces when the dancers have > lined up for the next dance, the dance AFTER this one will be > for more experienced dancers. > ...but not in a way that says you can't do it. Maybe better to say that the next dance will be (slightly?, somewhat?, considerably?) more difficult than previous dances and leave the inexperienced to decide if they want to try it anyway. I've seen callers teach an especially effective beginners workshop and do a reasonably challenging program (thus keeping the interest of the regulars) and the beginners weren't scared off. They not only met the challenge, but they stayed the entire evening because they were having fun, rather than slipping out at the break as often happens. > As a caller, keeping the experienced dancers on your side is > really important. I remember one of the most unpleasant > experience I have had in ECD. It was the first ECD on a mixed > weekend and it was billed as being for beginners. The caller > asked the experienced dancers to raise their hands and then > asked them to go to the center of the dance floor. They were > asked to repeat a "pledge" not to do certain things (I forget > the details but as I remember it was a list of things > experienced dancers might try to do to help beginners). To me > the experience was very distasteful and beginners looked at us > as we returned to place wondering (I'm guessing) why > experienced dancers needed to be singled out and told how to > act. > *That* is very strange. Before I got to the sentence about the "pledge", I thought you were going to say that the caller told the inexperienced dancers to take note of who these experienced people were and to seek them out as partners. That would have been a credible thing to do. But to, right from the beginning, alienate the experienced dancers who are going to help you make the weekend a success is flat out ignorant. Did that teacher ever get asked back to do another workshop?? I'm very curious to know just what sort of transgressions this person was expecting. I remember a Christmas dance week at Brasstown years ago at which Brad Foster was teaching Contras. (also with Wild Asparagus w/George and Ann teaching couple dances, Bob Dalsemer teaching squares, Steve Hickman's fiddle, Ira Bernstein teaching Clog and Jitterbug and others I can't remember) The first day, in the morning contra class, Brad asked the group to please concentrate on good solid dancing and not to perform all the fancy twirls (that, more often than not, cause people to be late and out of place, etc.) The entire week was filled with wonderfully good dancing. Brad simply asked a reasonable favor of the entire group while that other person demanded something of a group of potential allies that was singled out for embarrassment. Andy in Portland ...wishing I was also going to Pinewoods tomorrow. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:47:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:17:12 -0400 From: "Linda M. Nelson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls - SURPLUS??? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >... because, as in many dance >groups, we often have a surplus of "ladies" and I know it's a challenge for Hmmm. Be careful what you say. I've never liked the terminology of *surplus* ladies OR gentlemen. I prefer to think of an imbalance as a *shortage* of the missing group. The reason? If there's a "shortage", regulars are encouraged to bring friends of the missing gender. If there's a "surplus", some of those so labelled will be inclined to simply stay home next time. Here's to more of everybody! =-) Cheers - Linda __________________________________________________ "Oh, yes. It's vital to remember who you really are. It's very important. It isn't a good idea to rely on other people or things to do it for you, you see. They always get it wrong." (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery") __________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:54:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:40:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT When you have a dance with beginners and some ringers (experienced dancers), why don't you have the experienced dancers show a simple dance, then each of them ask a beginner to do the same dance? The beginners get their chance to watch, the experienced get a chance for a relaxed dance, and the caller has a lot of help. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:47:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:52:23 -0700 From: Marian Phillips Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls - SURPLUS??? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01c00f8e$c54b6840$ddeaadce-AT- default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Linda writes: >>I prefer to think of an imbalance as a *shortage* of the missing group. << Actually, the whole "surplus/shortage" question brings up another angle that I don't hear discussed much publicly, which is . . . . . . . . many of us have absolutely no objection to dancing with other women, don't consider it a burden in any way, and don't consider it to be any kind of a problem if there are more women than men at a dance. In fact, I have heard women make the statement, more than once, that they have left a dance feeling disappointed if they didn't get to dance with a) female friends that they don't get to see often, b) female friends that they do get to see often and whom they enjoy dancing with, and c) female dancers whom they might not know very well, but whom they know to be good dancers. I only bring this up because there seems to be an assumption, in these conversations about surpluses and shortages, that women always or mostly have a preference for dancing with men, and in the (very informal) polls that I've done, that seems not to be the case. Marian Phillips ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:55:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:04:32 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls - SURPLUS??? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39A85B0F.C96DA5F8-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01c00f8e$c54b6840$ddeaadce-AT- default> Marian Phillips wrote: > Linda writes: > > >>I prefer to think of an imbalance as a *shortage* of the missing group. << > > Actually, the whole "surplus/shortage" question brings up another angle that > I don't hear discussed much publicly, which is . . . . > > . . . . many of us have absolutely no objection to dancing with other > women, don't consider it a burden in any way, and don't consider it to be > any kind of a problem if there are more women than men at a dance. In fact, > I have heard women make the statement, more than once, that they have left a > dance feeling disappointed if they didn't get to dance with a) female > friends that they don't get to see often, b) female friends that they do get > to see often and whom they enjoy dancing with, and c) female dancers whom > they might not know very well, but whom they know to be good dancers. > > I only bring this up because there seems to be an assumption, in these > conversations about surpluses and shortages, that women always or mostly > have a preference for dancing with men, and in the (very informal) polls > that I've done, that seems not to be the case. > > Marian Phillips I know that this is somewhat "out of the way" because it relates to Scottish rather than ECD but...when I was training for my Scottish CD teacher's certificate our little group happened to have more "men" than "women" which, delightfully, gave me the chance to dance in the "opposite role" quite often. I not only didn't mind dancing with a male partner but frankly found the experience of looking at dancing problems from "the other side" most helpful in understanding pupils problems as well as learning how to better phrase instructions. So there!-I trust we ain't all MCP's. Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:51:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: DavBarnert-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: jberger-AT- monitor.net Message-ID: <69.9ba22b6.26d9dc21-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jon Berger asked: >... I've volunteered to do something I've never done before: >teach a workshop on ECD playing. ... I'd love to get input from >anyone who's either taught such a workshop or taken one, with >any comments about things that worked, things that didn't work, >specific tunes to use or avoid, or any other information that >might be helpful. Don't get me started on whether or not to use printed music (search the archives for the word "kick") but I think I can say that the most valuable lesson I ever learned at an ECD music workshop was from Marshall Barron at Pinewoods in the mid 1980s. It had to do with what to do while you're *not* playing, specifically, while the caller is teaching the dance, and particularly if the tune is an unfamiliar one. The wrong answer, of course, is to make noise with your instrument. But there is still much you can do to familiarize yourself with the tune. Look at the music. Does it say something like "3 times" to indicate that you need to count how many times you play it? Is there any clue about the tempo? Note the time signature. Count the measures. If it's not a standard 32-bar AABB, then what is it? Are there phrases that occur more than once? What's the key signature (can you figure out if it's in the relative major or minor or some other mode)? What's the route (repeats, da capos, etc.)? Where are the accidentals? Where are the fast passages? Finger your way through it without using the bow or bellows or your breath or whatever your particular noisemaker is, making note of the places where you are going to have to pay particular attention to the dots. If you work through this routine every time you need to learn a tune on stage quietly (from music, of course), you should be able to eliminate a lot of what stands between an unconfident instrumentalist and the task of making music. So my suggestion to Jon is to include this sort of thing in your workshop. I leave it to others to answer some of Jon's specific questions, as I'm not sure they really have answers. ______ /\/\/\/\ <______> | | | | | David Barnert <______> | | | | | <______> | | | | | Albany, N.Y. <______> \/\/\/\/ Ventilator Concertina Bellows Bellows (Vocation) (Avocation) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:19:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 03:20:27 -0400 From: Mary E Jones Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: The Pledge To: ECD List Message-ID: <39A8C13B.3EDAB176-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Loretta Holz and Andy Peterson have alluded to 'The Pledge" - which requires some explanation, I see. As a bit of background: all of us have teaching/calling styles which appeal to some and not to others for a variety of reasons. Mine tends to be...uh, irreverent, especially when giving beginner's workshops. This is not to say that all of us should adopt this mode - actually that would be terrible...rather like living in a Monty Python sketch. The 'Pledge' in question, which I thought was pretty funny - not that we all have the same humor threshold - was to accomplish 3 things: to identify the experienced dancers (for the beginners at a festival workshop knowing no one else), to keep the buzz of teaching from the floor to a minimum (the beginners always ask their experienced partners questions, and receive answers, which contributes to a lot of noise), and to put the experienced dancers slightly off balance (what is coming next - which is how the beginners are feeling already). Perhaps I did not emphasize enough to the beginners all of the great points that Loretta and Andy have outlined regarding learning from their experienced partners. These are subtleties which I'll certainly make that more obvious next time - no pun intended...well, OK, intended. My take on beginners workshops is a little more broad than most people's...but even the gooniest things are included for a purpose. "Jane Austen Says", cleavage moments and 'the hat of silence' are not teaching devices for everyone... Mary (Laughter May Be Universal But What Is Funny Is Not) Jones Amherst, MA until October ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:51:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:51:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <64.605dfa4.26da76dc-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/25/00 8:23:59 PM Central Daylight Time, Heyer-AT- concentric.net writes: > > You might consider coming up with three different types of things that > people could do with a tune, based on their skill level: a) play melody; > b) play really simple harmony; c) play somewhat more complex harmonies. > Then, especially for b) and c), explain how they do it, play examples for > them to imitate, etc. > This is exactly what I do with my 2nd year public school students when I teach them any folk tune...but especially a tricky ECD tune. As a matter of fact, I require that all students, no matter what their level of facility and fiddle experience, first learn the harmony part. I tell them that they haven't really learned the tune until they can play the harmony part while someone else plays the tune. (Maybe this is because, before anything, I'm a viola player.) The happy thing about this for beginning string players with little facility is that the harmony notes can often be sounded by playing the "open strings" of their instruments. The next level, for more experienced players (echoing Marian Phillips excellent advice) is to teach them how to play more complex harmonies. I only would add this twist: if possible, teach them how to IMPROVISE on the harmony part. The final level is for them to learn the tune. My experience is that kids who go through the first two levels have a much easier time grasping the tune than those who try to dig into the tune immediately. The goal of this is that at the performance everyone is doing something...you don't want all those visiting aunts and uncles from Peoria (who somehow always seem to make the 300 mile trip to the "winter concert") to see little Heather or Ryan not participating in a rousing rendition of "Draper's Garden." They want to see those bow arms move. If all three levels happen at once, it all sounds, to my suburban ears, delightfully rustic. Jonathan Brodie Whitefish Bay (WI) School District ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:43:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:43:19 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Pledge To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/27/00 7:20:20 AM, mjones-AT- javanet.com writes: << cleavage moments >> What; and how??? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:17:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:16:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000827171652.3889.qmail-AT- web3303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com wrote: > The final level is for them to learn the tune. My experience > is that kids who go through the first two levels have a much > easier time grasping the tune than those who try to dig into > the tune immediately. > By contrast, a music workshop of ECDers who occasionally pick up their instrument, instead of their feet, is likely to already have an intimate familiarity with the tune from dancing to it. To an experienced dancer, dancing to the tune is likely to come more esily than actually finding the right notes on ones musical instrument, especially finding those note at a dancable tempo. In support of your teaching the harmony first, I will sometimes find a harmony that works for a tune and that I like and never really learn the tune because I have fun playing the harmony. (I sometimes put on a recording and play along with it, mainly because I learn best by ear rather than reading music and partly to force myself to play up to speed as I'm learing.) I've often said that I have played *at* the violin since I was five, but I'm too busy dancing to get serious about really learning the instrument. I very quickly exceed my knowledge and capabilities long before I reach the potential of the instrument. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:23:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Pledge To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000827172238.2556.qmail-AT- web3304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Mary E Jones wrote: > ...to keep the buzz of teaching from the floor to a minimum > (the beginners always ask their experienced partners questions, > and receive answers, which contributes to a lot of noise), It also contributes to additional confusion because the beginner misses the *next* instruction while the experienced dancer is answering their question. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:29:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:29:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls - SURPLUS??? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000827172918.12040.qmail-AT- web3306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- "Linda M. Nelson" wrote: > Hmmm. Be careful what you say. I've never liked the > terminology of *surplus* ladies OR gentlemen. I prefer to > think of an imbalance as a *shortage* of the missing group. > The reason? If there's a "shortage", regulars are encouraged > to bring friends of the missing gender. If there's a > "surplus", some of those so labelled will be inclined to simply > stay home next time. > > Here's to more of everybody! =-) > I've never experienced a surplus of dancers, just (on very rare occassions) dance floors that aren't big enough to hold everyone. There usually is a shortage of dancers to fill the hall. Andy in Portland OR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:26:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:26:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/27/00 12:17:39 PM Central Daylight Time, lyrlsbro-AT- yahoo.com writes: > --- Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com wrote: > > The final level is for them to learn the tune. My experience > > > is that kids who go through the first two levels have a much > > easier time grasping the tune than those who try to dig into > > the tune immediately. > > > > By contrast, a music workshop of ECDers who occasionally pick up > their instrument, instead of their feet, is likely to already > have an intimate familiarity with the tune from dancing to it. This is a good point. An experienced dancer, if I am understanding your point correctly, who has danced to a tune and heard it many times has an advantageous "entry point" into actually playing the music that would be as valuable, if not more valuable, than learning the harmony. They could probably by-pass learning the harmony first and go directly to the tune. The "harmony first" strategy is best, I suspect, for kids who have not had repetitive dance or listening experience with the tune that they are learning. And this describes all the kids I come in contact with. And to further back up the idea that dance experience is point that dance experience is essential for a musician: my first halting but earnest efforts at dancing this past spring at an ECD workshop made me completely reevaluate how I had, up to that point, been playing the tunes. Way too fast. Nothing was a better tempo teacher for me than actually dancing (or attempting) to dance. > To an experienced dancer, dancing to the tune is likely to come > more esily than actually finding the right notes on ones musical > instrument, especially finding those note at a dancable tempo. > In support of your teaching the harmony first, I will sometimes > find a harmony that works for a tune and that I like and never > really learn the tune because I have fun playing the harmony. Well, again speaking as a viola player....this is such a good point you bring up. Playing harmony parts (especially improvising them) is such a kick. And really sometime more fun than playing the tune itself. I love these tunes, but the reason I keep loving them is that I try valiantly (and with more than my fair share of bloopers) when I play with my little group, to change the notes of the established harmony for each repetition. I generally let the recorder player play the tune. I have more important matters to attend to. (Don't tell her I said this!) This brings up something I have been thinking about recently. Dancers follow a caller and moving their bodies in prescribed and formulaic ways to achieve a sublime moment. Well, I do believe that musicians do this as well. But we don't move our entire bodies over a large space. We move our fingers, in the case of a fiddle player, for example, in prescribed and formulaic ways around a fingerboard. But is this not also a form of dance? We are dancing too...or at least our fingers are. So everyone in the room, dancers and musicians are really all dancers and engaged in the same noble endeavor...its just that different parts are moving. Tell me if this makes sense ..or have I played "Miss Dolland's Delight" one time too many? I guess it really doesn't matter what part you move; and perhaps there is more than one caller in the room. There is the person who tells you where to put your body and there is, rising from the band in the corner, filling the space and commingling with the June-bug sounds outside in the Wisconsin dusk, the sublime chordal progression of "Dick's Maggot." Jonathan Brodie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:48:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:49:09 -0400 From: Mary E Jones Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Harvest Moon English Country Dance To: ECD List Message-ID: <39A9B705.78567691-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi All! Here is a posting from Susan Kevra: Harvest Moon English Country Dance at the beautiful, newly renovated Putney Community Center, Christian Square, Putney, Vermont Saturday, September 9, 2000 8:30 - 11:30 PM with exquisite music by BLT Peter Barnes - piano Mary Lea - fiddle Bill Tomczak - clarinet and dance instruction by Susan Kevra Admission $7 No partner necessary For information call 802-257-2466 Parking can be found on Christian Square, along Main Street and in the Putney Tavern lot. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:44:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:44:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000828074416.16150.qmail-AT- web3304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com wrote: > This brings up something I have been thinking about recently. > Dancers follow a caller and moving their bodies in prescribed > and formulaic ways to achieve a sublime moment. Well, I do > believe that musicians do this as well. But we don't move our > entire bodies over a large space. We move our fingers, in the > case of a fiddle player, for example, in prescribed and > formulaic ways around a fingerboard. But is this not also a > form of dance? We are dancing too...or at least our fingers > are. So everyone in the room, dancers and musicians are really > all dancers and engaged in the same noble endeavor...its just > that different parts are moving. Tell me if this makes sense > ...or have I played "Miss Dolland's Delight" one time too many? > The best dance musicians are people who dance because they have a better sense of what the dancers need. I remember Marshall Barron saying one time that if you only tap your foot while playing it is easy to change the speed at which you are playing, but if you feel the music in your whole body you will find it easier to maintain a constant tempo. In that sense the musicians certainly dance to their own music. Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:20:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:19:36 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT You can never play Miss Dolland's Delight too many times! Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:51:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:52:41 +0100 From: francis2 Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <005f01c01131$e9767c60$5990183e-AT- oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <200008260034.TAA15980-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> For those who dont seem to know, Freeford Gardens is in "Not quite Playford" with recording by the West Kirby Band. ance written by D & K Wright to the tune "Edgworth Bumpkins" from Wrights Collection of celebrated country dances ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Diggle To: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 1:33 AM Subject: Re: Freeford Gardens > Um, > Me, supply the instructions for Freeford Gardens? > Gosh, don't I wish... > I'm afraid that you could carry my ECD collection > in your shirt (or blouse) pocket without anyone > noticing. That's one of the reasons I'm lurking > in here... trying to increase my knowledge of the > material, myself. American dances I can be of > help with. Oops, musn't let those prepositions > dangle... With American dances, I can be of help. > > Roger Diggle > Who is wishing he weren't back from vacation to > answer this... > > > Gary D. Shapiro wrote: > > >Since I can't get the tune for Freeford Gardens out of my head, I'd > >at least like to know how the dance goes. According to the liner > >notes in the English Country Dance Collection Volume 3, the sheet of > >instructions "has been widely duplicated and circulated in the > >States." Well, not wide enough. > > >If Alan doesn't take first crack at this, next should be Emily > >Ferguson, then Benjamin Stein, then Sharon Green, then Roger Diggle. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:28:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:27:58 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD music playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3e.428d37.26dc416e-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Susie Petrov ran a superb workshop on this subject at ESS Pinewoods this summer: sh had a very different approach to the whole matter, which produced very interesting results, and was inspirational. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:56:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:56:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jbrodie1750-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Teaching ECD music playing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2b.a14da2f.26dc4806-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/28/00 5:29:32 PM Central Daylight Time, SallenNic-AT- aol.com writes: > Susie Petrov ran a superb workshop on this subject at ESS Pinewoods this > summer: sh had a very different approach to the whole matter, which produced > > very interesting results, and was inspirational. > Nicolas B., Lanark, > Scotland. Is it possible to briefly summarize her approach? I'm intrigued! Sincerely, jb ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:04:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:09:00 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What do you do about people who want to watch first? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000828.213432.-420143.0.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In the Pittsburgh contra dances there has been an intermittent tradition of experienced dancers who wear a big button that says: "If you're new, ask me to dance!" in order to help beginners who come All By Themselves to find partners. I'm told it helps some. Whether any Beginner takes the button-wearers up on the idea or not, I think it gives the newbie a good idea of the type of community spirit into which one is dipping a hesitant toe. Allison ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:08:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:27:03 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Gender free calls - SURPLUS??? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000828.213432.-420143.2.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'd like to hurrah Marian's comments about the non-badness of the surplus of one sex, especially women. The surplus assumes that the extras are somehow, by their extra-ness, *bad*. But I enjoy dancing with beginners, I adore dancing with my girl friends and sometimes, if I'm lucky and my husband is not minding the door, I get to dance with him or another nice/good male dancer. To me, the dancing & the community of the event is more important than how many Cary Grants I got to dance with (lifetime total: about 2 1/2). The sex (imputed, actual, stated, whatever) of one's partner tends to be