Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 04:51:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:51:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: rights & lefts To: ECD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My apologies. Marjorie thoughtfully sent me two messages, one with and one without the attachments. I believed that I had forwarded the one without attachments. My system doesn't read any attachments. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:39:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:38:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Orly Krasner Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Spelling To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, All-- While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket (one T). I have no sources at hand with which to confirm this, however. Can someone check? And while we're on the subject, anybody know why it's called "Becket" and not something else?? Much obliged, --Orly (just back from visiting with dance friends in the UK!!) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:53:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 15:52:48 +0100 From: Hugh Stewart Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3986E440.24C2CCCB-AT- ugsolutions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Orly Krasner wrote: > > Hi, All-- > While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the > correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket > (one T). I have no sources at hand with which to confirm this, however. > Can someone check? And while we're on the subject, anybody know why it's > called "Becket" and not something else?? Much obliged, > --Orly (just back from visiting with dance friends in the UK!!) Well, I believe it was named after a dance weekend at Camp Becket, MA ( http://home.earthlink.net/~becket/ ) so I am pretty convinced of the spelling of this one. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:30:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:30:45 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: FW: Rights and lefts/right and left through To: English Dance Message-ID: <000201bffbde$3968e370$0f981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Let me amend that instruction below, which now appears between *** W1 starts each half of the figure with the 3s above; M1 with the 2s below. Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU] On Behalf Of Patricia Ruggiero Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 11:20 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: RE: Rights and lefts/right and left through To add to Alan's description -- The figure to which Dianna refers, as it appears in Irish Rover and The Whistling Wind, involves three couples, in the order 3,1,2. The 3s and 2s are improper, the 1s are proper. ***W1 dances with the 3s above; M1 dances with the 2s below.*** If everything works out as it is supposed to, after 8 bars everyone is proper and in the order 2, 1, 3, with the 1s ready to repeat the dance. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:30:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:30:47 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000301bffbde$3ac231e0$0f981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dianna, The diagonal R&L figure takes 8 bars, just as the straight R&L does. One reason for the giving of hands in an 8-bar R&L is to prompt the dancers into making wide turns so as to gracefully dance out the four beats for each change. "Especially fast music" is not required to execute the figure. I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if at all, in ECD. So, diagonal R&L isn't needed to undo something. If diagonal R&L occurred first, then some nifty other figure, again involving the corners, would be needed to undo the R&L. It's quite possible that this figure, or something close to it, has appeared in a clever modern English dance where the track was described but no name was assigned to that track. Can you think of any modern dances where folks cross on the diagonal and then along the side? Pat __________ You wrote: "Trev I saw all the postings about diagonal half rights and lefts in contra dancing but so far haven't seen a reference to an English dance - I'd think you'd have to make a wide arc to use up the time unless is was especially fast music, Dianna" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:57:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Orly Krasner wrote: > While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the > correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket > (one T). This spelling is correct. Herbie called in western Massachusetts and named his dances after the village he called them in. His first dance with this formation was devised for a dance he was calling in Becket, on Rte 8. Herbie's way of explaining the formation was to say that it was a square with no head couples, just sides couples going up and down the floor. Incidently, Rte 8 was called Jacob's Ladder (as in Old Testament) by the early English settlers. A farm along the road had a large unusual rock near the road -- this rock was called Jacob's Pillow. When Ted Shawn bought the farm property to have a place to foster modern dance, he kept the name Jacob's Pillow. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 11:13:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:12:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Wolfelinda-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #773 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For Howard: I am very familiar with books of all kinds from the early nineteenth century (as a result of a nondance book I'm working on) and I can tell you this: in book after book published before 1825 or so, words were often spelled in two or even three different ways. Bad type setting. Bo copy editing. Therefore, I'd say go with the correct French spelling. Best, Linda Wolfe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:03:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:52:12 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: when did rights & lefts (with annex) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000801215212.007ed860-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ouch ! After all the discussion of copyrights (on the other dance list, actually) someone scans pages and pages, distributes them thoughout the world, and the download (whether you want it or not) takes ages and ages. Not too many hard feelings, however, Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:16:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 15:16:00 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Spelling To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008012016.PAA02765-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Orly Krasner wrote: >Hi, All-- > While we're on the topic of spelling. . . . I was recently told that the >correct spelling of that formation invented by Herbie Gaudreau is Becket >(one T). I have no sources at hand with which to confirm this, however. >Can someone check? And while we're on the subject, anybody know why it's >called "Becket" and not something else?? Much obliged, >--Orly (just back from visiting with dance friends in the UK!!) Oooops... I had it in my head wrong... it *is* "Becket", named for Becket, Massachusets, according to the notes in "Zesty Contras". I also see from those notes that the sequence is in CDM6 as "Bucksaw Reel". I have to confess that I wish we called it Bucksaw formation rather than Becket. I was told by prolific contra choreographer Al Olson that Larry Jennings is responsible for naming Becket formation. I'm inclined to believe it, since I've seen the name in no source material older than Zesty Contras. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:30:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:24:03 -0400 From: Robert & Kathryn Johnson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Poussette: push or pull? To: "'ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU'" Message-ID: <01BFFBD5.0F306960-AT- ha10s166.d.shentel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_mNiwtER2yvZ+DumtO5TPig)" --Boundary_(ID_mNiwtER2yvZ+DumtO5TPig) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have struggled for a while with the idea of bein' 'immortal', but am having very little success with it. (the reference was in a post which suggested a tack for 'us mere mortals') I used the term 'clockwise' for a Poussette. Our teachers used it for instructional purposes when further illucidation had quite obviously failed to illuminate. It made perfect sense to me, but then my world was quite familiar with the clock as a directional device as well as a timekeeping one. My wife, on the other hand, made a face as if to say what is that? Both of us were perfectly familiar with the Poussette but many in the group were not. (This is a frequent occurence in our group and has the drawback of having to repeat many, many times for the newbies. However, it does have the reward of seeing that little lightbulb come on when they get it. And, we do set aside some time for more adventurous dances. I guess the point is that instruction/teaching requires communication. Sometimes a little innovation and ingenuity helps a great deal. Once communication is established, then we all can be more traditional and formal in our approach. A Poussette (however spelled and however danced in different dance forms) is still a Poussette even with some variations that might occur from area to area and region to region. My wife and I in our short ten years with this form of dance have tasted most of the variations, ECD, SCD, Contra, Squares, International and have enjoyed all of it even though sometimes we were way out in left field when we should have been in right field. And, the people have been wonderful! Our motto is enjoy, have fun! Life is short, do it while you can! Don't look back, the best is yet to come and is right around the corner! Enjoy! 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Shipman diannashipman-AT- worldnet.att.net PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray Houston, TX 77019-4946 Scottish Country Dancing and More web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman phone: 713-522-1212 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Ruggiero" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 12:30 PM Subject: RE: when did rights & lefts change to right & left through > Dianna, > > The diagonal R&L figure takes 8 bars, just as the straight R&L does. One > reason for the giving of hands in an 8-bar R&L is to prompt the dancers into > making wide turns so as to gracefully dance out the four beats for each > change. "Especially fast music" is not required to execute the figure. > > I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by > name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions > as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the > corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: > half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for > Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if at > all, in ECD. So, diagonal R&L isn't needed to undo something. If diagonal > R&L occurred first, then some nifty other figure, again involving the > corners, would be needed to undo the R&L. > > It's quite possible that this figure, or something close to it, has appeared > in a clever modern English dance where the track was described but no name > was assigned to that track. Can you think of any modern dances where folks > cross on the diagonal and then along the side? > > Pat > __________ > > You wrote: > "Trev > I saw all the postings about diagonal half rights and lefts in contra > dancing but so far haven't seen a reference to an English dance - I'd think > you'd have to make a wide arc to use up the time unless is was especially > fast music, > Dianna" > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:23:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:23:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This one is really a stretch but I'd be glad for any leads. I've been reading a biography of Hans Schneider-Schwerte (C.Leggewie, "Von Schneider zu Schwerte"). He was, as Schneider, a German folk dance teacher *and* officer in the SS. He "disappeared" at the end of WW2, and Schwerte appeared -- and became a leading liberal German academic at Aachen University. In 1995, the beans got spilled and it was an enormous cause celebre in German academic politics. It became very complicated because he really did have a very constructive and productive postwar career as academic liberal, bridge-builder, conciliator, etc. Leggewie's book (p.305) refers to Schneider's attendance at a 1938 EFDSS summer session or meeting ("Tanztreffen"). Schwerte [sorry, the names get confusing] recalled to Leggewie in an interview, that in 1938, at this session or meeting he met "an American woman dance enthusiast, who worked for the Ford automobile firm in the Rocky Mountains." This woman allegedly tried to convince him to come to the States, perhaps even emigrate, though he declined. Any ideas who this might have been? A woman who worked for Ford -- I don't know if "Rocky Mountains" really is any indication, Europeans often have only the vaguest idea of North American geography, like the Englishman I met who assumed he could drive from NYC to Arizona in a few hours. Schneider-Schwerte was born in 1909, so let's assume that the woman would have been born ca.1905-18. thanks Steve Corrsin - ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:47:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:47:04 -0400 From: Lou Vosteen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Attachments To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Since Martin broached the subject of downloads, I'd like to add a comment. If you feel you must attach a document, please use a TEXT file. Not all of us can read someone else's application-specific file and to download 1516 pages (Yes, that's what it was!) of jiberish is very frustrating and totally useless. Lou ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:52:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:52:26 -0700 From: "Hamilton, Bruce" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dippy tunes To: "'ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" CC: "Me (E-mail)" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The Good News: I've found a way to get a dippy tune out of my head. The Bad News: The way is to hum a dippier tune. And so, my brain already poisoned, I had this terrible thought: could our discussion group come up with an authoritative list of dippy tunes, in order of increasing dippiness? Is there one that's dippier than all others? If you'd like to participate in this hateful task, there are three ways: 1) Suggest dippy tunes. For example, you can say, "I can never get 'Louie, Louie' out of my head." 2) Suggest rankings. For example, if you think '99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall' is dippier than 'Achey Breakey Heart' you can say that. To save typing (and to make it easier for me when I do the eventual processing) you can word this as: 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall > Achey Breakey Heart You can suggest tunes and rank them at the same time (as I did above), or you can give a ranking for tunes that others have already suggested. You can rank several tunes at once, as: London Bridges > Mr. Ed > Teddy Bears' Picnic > We're Off to See the Wizard 3) You can claim that a previously-suggested tune isn't dippy. I feel this way about "Four Lane End," for example. It is DARN hard to get out of my head, but whatever "dippy" means, it doesn't seem to apply to that tune. Reply to the list or directly to me. Replying to the list will spark more discussion, but will also mess with more minds. If you write to me, I'll post an occasional summary. We will get conflicting opinions, and I haven't decided what to do about that yet. I just thought it would be fun to try this and see what develops. If it works, there will be two results, of great use to humanity: 1) When you get a tune stuck in your head, you can go to the list and find the least dippy tune that is still dippier. This will get the first tune out of your head while delaying as long as possible your eventual slide into insanity. 2) If you get the world's dippiest tune (once we decide what it is) in your head, you can relax, knowing it will never get any worse. To plunge us straight into the deep end, I'll lead by saying that I have yet to find a tune dippier than "It's a Small, Small World." Finally, so you don't all kill me, I've also found that a really lofty tune can drive out a dippy one. The tunes for "Wa' is Me" and "A New Beginning" will do it, for example. Have fun! -Bruce bruce_hamilton-AT- agilent.com Tel: 650-485-2818 Fax: 650-485-8092 Agilent Technologies MS 24M-A, 3500 Deer Creek Road, Palo Alto CA 94303 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:37:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000802183718.24805.qmail-AT- web1610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bruce, Have you been under greater than usual stress this week? > If it works, there will be two results, of great use to humanity: Not to mention material for a Dave Barry column! Barbara ===== Do you know about the Hunger Site? Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site. No purchases - all you do is click on the site. Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:04:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:04:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: "'ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Hamilton, Bruce wrote (in part): > The Good News: I've found a way to get a dippy tune out of my head. > The Bad News: The way is to hum a dippier tune. Louise Chapin, leader of the Boston CDSS for about fifty years, always claimed that the way to get a tune out of your head was to hum a stanza of the Star Spangled Banner. "It will kill anything," she said. > > Finally, so you don't all kill me, I've also found that a really lofty tune > can drive out a dippy one. The tunes for "Wa' is Me" and "A New Beginning" > will do it, for example. all the best ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:30:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:29:50 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000001bffcb8$069f7a00$01981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk dance. They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and preserver of American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say that I have forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. The Lloyd Shaw Foundation might know exactly who this woman was. It happens, also, that the LSF has an annual "Rocky Mountain Dance Roundup," so that may be how the Rocky Mt. connection got in there. Bill Litchman is Archives Director. His email address is: litchman-AT- neon.unm.edu Good luck! Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of Stephen D. Corrsin Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 10:23 AM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: wild goose chase This one is really a stretch but I'd be glad for any leads. I've been reading a biography of Hans Schneider-Schwerte (C.Leggewie, "Von Schneider zu Schwerte"). He was, as Schneider, a German folk dance teacher *and* officer in the SS. He "disappeared" at the end of WW2, and Schwerte appeared -- and became a leading liberal German academic at Aachen University. In 1995, the beans got spilled and it was an enormous cause celebre in German academic politics. It became very complicated because he really did have a very constructive and productive postwar career as academic liberal, bridge-builder, conciliator, etc. Leggewie's book (p.305) refers to Schneider's attendance at a 1938 EFDSS summer session or meeting ("Tanztreffen"). Schwerte [sorry, the names get confusing] recalled to Leggewie in an interview, that in 1938, at this session or meeting he met "an American woman dance enthusiast, who worked for the Ford automobile firm in the Rocky Mountains." This woman allegedly tried to convince him to come to the States, perhaps even emigrate, though he declined. Any ideas who this might have been? A woman who worked for Ford -- I don't know if "Rocky Mountains" really is any indication, Europeans often have only the vaguest idea of North American geography, like the Englishman I met who assumed he could drive from NYC to Arizona in a few hours. Schneider-Schwerte was born in 1909, so let's assume that the woman would have been born ca.1905-18. thanks Steve Corrsin - ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:01:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:01:16 -0400 From: Maryn McKenna Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk dance. >They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and preserver of >American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say that I have >forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. didn't Ford arrange for dance(s) to be held/taught at Greenfield Village, his "outdoor museum" in Dearborn? i thought i'd heard at one point that there were, i dunno, mondo names in the folk revival who had been briefly linked to Greenfield. Greenfield supposdly has major archives (though they are building a big new research center this fall and so might be somewhat deraillee). maryn (who used to live 30 mins from Greenfield Village but is now stuck in the parched and gasping South [sulk]) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:01:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:22:50 -0700 From: Suzanne Frank Subject: Re: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <001501bffcb7$0db147c0$73c3b3d1-AT- rjiredff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Henry Ford taught square dancing in Dearborn,MI when my parents were in high school(early '40's) Square and contra dances were held at Lovett Hall on the Greenfield Village grounds in Dearborn. Contra Dances are still held on Sunday afternoons at Lovett Hall. Maybe someone in the dance community can help. Suzanne Frank(now in Sunnyvale,CA) ----- Original Message ----- From: Maryn McKenna To: Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: RE: wild goose chase > >Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk dance. > >They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and preserver of > >American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say that I have > >forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. > > didn't Ford arrange for dance(s) to be held/taught at Greenfield Village, > his "outdoor museum" in Dearborn? i thought i'd heard at one point that > there were, i dunno, mondo names in the folk revival who had been briefly > linked to Greenfield. > > Greenfield supposdly has major archives (though they are building a big new > research center this fall and so might be somewhat deraillee). > > maryn > (who used to live 30 mins from Greenfield Village but is now stuck in the > parched and gasping South [sulk]) > > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:39:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:38:45 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Diagonal reels in ECD To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 2/8/2000 3:02:00 pm, system-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by >name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions >as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the >corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: >half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for >Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if >at >all, in ECD. There's always some clever dick who chimes in to disprove a point just made, and I find I'm he this time around! Pat Shaw used diagonal Heys (reels for four) in 'The Dancing Dutch', which he composed 27 years ago: he probably used the same figure in other dances as well, though none spring immediately to my increasingly scattered mind. Colin Hume used the figure recently in 'Gold for Brenda'. Corner interaction - well there are plenty of instances of this sort of thing in the later ECD's, when 'Triple Minor" had almost routed all other forms of dance, Think briefly of Fandango, Cambridge Waltz, and probably many others including Pat Shaw's version of The Russian Dance, instructions for which may be found in the booklet of the new CD by The Assembly Players, 'Pat Shaw's Playford' (shameless advertising plug! - private enquiries welcome, general ECD list ones embarrassing!). The reason these figures are not as conspicuous as they might be is that we tend to have converted to set dances a great many of them. There is, of course, the Somerset 'Bonny Breast Knot'. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:33:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: [Fwd from Will Quale] re: Wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSI40SBSBQ9QUSCF-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Quale To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: RE: wild goose chase On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Patricia Ruggiero wrote: > Henry Ford and his wife were interested in perpetuating American folk > dance. They have some connection to Lloyd Shaw, a collector and > preserver of American square and round dancing, but I'm sorry to say > that I have forgotten the nature and extent of that relationship. i don't know the connection to lloyd shaw, but i do have a book produced by the fords, which my mother found for me at a book sale for 1$: Good Morning: Music, Calls, and Directions for Old-Time Dancing as Revived by Mr. and Mrs. Henry Ford. 61 Quadrilles, reels, singing squares, gavottes, minuets, and waltzes. Fourth edition, published in Dearborn, Michigan, 1943. 124pgs (the treasures mothers can find!) perhaps there's something in the book mentioning lloyd shaw, but right now i am at camp and the book is not. --will will-AT- quale.org www.quale.org www.quale.org/dance/dance.html "i've gone to sweep cobwebs beyond the sky, but i'll be back by and by." =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:01:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: [Fwd from Will Quale] re: Wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSI4RCOT0I9QUSQX-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Will Quale wrote: i don't know the connection to lloyd shaw, but i do have a book produced by the fords, which my mother found for me at a book sale for 1$: Good Morning: Music, Calls, and Directions for Old-Time Dancing as Revived by Mr. and Mrs. Henry Ford. 61 Quadrilles, reels, singing squares, gavottes, minuets, and waltzes. Fourth edition, published in Dearborn, Michigan, 1943. 124pgs (the treasures mothers can find!) perhaps there's something in the book mentioning lloyd shaw, but right now i am at camp and the book is not. But your dance book database _is_ available at camp. You frighten me, sir. I seem to have mislaid my copy of this book (which I got for $8 at the Medford Antique Mall in Medford, OR, and there is usually at least one copy for auction on eBay), but I have read it recently and don't recollect any mention of Lloyd Shaw. (I don't know if there are significant textual changes between editions of the book; I do know that the illustrations in my edition very clearly show people in 1920s clothing executing the figures. They're charming illustrations, by the way.) I had been under the impression that Henry himself didn't generally teach dancing, but that Mr. Lovett, his dancing master (after whom the hall is retrospectively named) did so. On the other hand, there's a description of Henry Ford in FORD: THE MEN AND THE MACHINES in ballroom position with one of his executives, teaching the man how to minuet. (Which I thought at the time was just an mistake on the biographer's part, but I see that GOOD MORNING contains a couple dance called the "Waltz-Minuet", which does have ballroom position stuff in it. Incidentally, it appears to me from a comparison of GOOD MORNING with older dance manuals that in the course of reviving dances, Mr. Lovett simplified and regularized them. I don't know if there's any bio material on Mr. Lovett that might answer this question. (I might have asked about this here before; don't recall.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:18:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:17:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Orly Krasner Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Diagonal reels in ECD To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Come to think of it, Marty Fager used a diagonal hey in his ECD "Maine Chance." --Orly krasner ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:05:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:05:33 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Wild goose chase To: English Dance Message-ID: <000101bffcf7$b0567140$27981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan, regarding your observation that Henry Ford doesn't mention Lloyd Shaw -- In his books, "Cowboy Dances" and "The Round Dance Book," Lloyd Shaw has some passing references to Henry Ford, one of which highly praises Ford's book, "Good Morning." Shaw also mentions getting permission from Ford to adapt one of his dances for one of these books. So, if the indexes to both books are thorough and there aren't any overlooked references to Henry Ford, then I guess neither book offers much in the way of explaining if the two men knew each other well, or at all. Shaw doesn't mention Lovett. The original query (remember that?) was about who might a certain woman have been. I figure it was some woman who worked for Ford and who attended an LSF "Rocky Mountain Roundup." How's that for a leap of faith? Seriously, it may be that in remembering Shaw's references to Ford I thought there was some genuine connection between the two. Maybe, as part of his wild goose chase, Steve will find out and let us all know. Pat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:05:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:05:36 -0400 From: Patricia Ruggiero Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Diagonal reels in ECD To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <000301bffcf7$b2457000$27981c3f-AT- MITRE.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Nicholas, I was referring more to the variations on country corners that one sees in modern SCD: chain the corners in; turn corners and balance in line; corners pass and turn; corners chase to opposite sides; set to and turn corners; and promenade the corners are some that come immediately to mind. I'm aware that there are heys for 4 in Pat Shaw's dances (Miss de Jersey's for one). My point was more that SCD makes use of the diagonal reel of 4 as a setup (usually in the form of the 1/2 reel) for yet more complex corner interactions. The diagonal R&L is part of this repertoire. Reels of 4, particularly those on the diagonal, are among the basic building blocks of modern SCD, deriving (I think) from the 19th c. tradition. Although I do less ECD than SCD nowadays, and very little of that is modern ECD, my sense is that heys for 4, despite their occasional appearance, do not play the same role in ECD. Pat -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU [mailto:owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of SallenNic-AT- aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 7:39 PM To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Diagonal reels in ECD In a message dated 2/8/2000 3:02:00 pm, system-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >I would speculate that the reason we don't see this figure, at least by >name, in ECD is because ECD doesn't make as much use of corner interactions >as does SCD in triple minors. In the two dances under discussion, the >corners were moved to opposite sides in some earlier phrase of music: >half-reels of 4 on the diagonal for The Whistling Wind; I forget what for >Irish Rover. Reels or heys for 4 on the diagonal don't figure much, if >at >all, in ECD. There's always some clever dick who chimes in to disprove a point just made, and I find I'm he this time around! Pat Shaw used diagonal Heys (reels for four) in 'The Dancing Dutch', which he composed 27 years ago: he probably used the same figure in other dances as well, though none spring immediately to my increasingly scattered mind. Colin Hume used the figure recently in 'Gold for Brenda'. Corner interaction - well there are plenty of instances of this sort of thing in the later ECD's, when 'Triple Minor" had almost routed all other forms of dance, Think briefly of Fandango, Cambridge Waltz, and probably many others including Pat Shaw's version of The Russian Dance, instructions for which may be found in the booklet of the new CD by The Assembly Players, 'Pat Shaw's Playford' (shameless advertising plug! - private enquiries welcome, general ECD list ones embarrassing!). The reason these figures are not as conspicuous as they might be is that we tend to have converted to set dances a great many of them. There is, of course, the Somerset 'Bonny Breast Knot'. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:47:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:32:26 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000803.011632.-515195.2.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've always found that a mixture of alcohol and aspirin will take care of the problem. Allison ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:48:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:43:47 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: wild goose chase To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000803.011632.-515195.4.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've read the several responses to Steve's question, which generally took an interesting diversion (which perhaps deserves more discusseion) into the revered Mr. Henry Ford (my daughter, age 6, recently "helped" him demonstrate the outing of his first quadricycle at Dearborn, MI), but I think we may have gotten a wee bit off Steve's point, which was, was there any US-based female who liked to dance (age and state of residence unspecified) who might have in the ca. WWII era been in a position to advise any German male (of varying political persuasions) of anything whatsoever??? Allison Thompson http://www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:48:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:16:11 -0400 From: Allison M Thompson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: allison.thompson-AT- pncbank.com Message-ID: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT O my dears! ... poor Cecil has failed indeed, at least in America! I write this having just returned from the excellent & charming performance of my talented and charming (AND they clean their rooms & brush their teeth!) performance of my son (8) and daughter (6) at a lovely arts & music summer camp which I myself attended as a child in the dark ages & at which I taught recorder for 3 years as a college student in the somewhat less dark ages and ... ... well, most of us know that, ca. 1911 to 1924 or so, Cecil & his followers were determined that those of us in the world who spoke English (i.e., the English & the Americans--and we must remember we are talking pre-WWI cultural perceptions) should sing & dance the gay old English songs & dances & that every English-speaking child's curriculum should include lots & lots of "Blowing Away the Morning Dew" and "Sellenger's" and "The Spotted Cow" and "Goddesses" and that by the true appreciation of Same, all English persons (Cecil kind of forgot Americans at this point in his perorations, and don't even think about the India-Indians or anyone else from the former Empire) would join hands together in a Brotherhood of Englishness (a brotherhood that would not depend on outrageous concepts like an equal day's pay for an equal day's work (i.e., for women) or anything so controversial as that) and ... ...and when he first came to America in 1916, Cecil bumped heads with people like Elizabeth Burchenal, who thought that, since America was a melting pot of nationalities, American children should enjoy the songs & dances of various nations, rather than purely English ones which, of course, was not acceptable to Cecil, based on the premise of the above ... ... and then both of them (though now long defunct) have bumped up in the last 15 years (doubtless to their common, post-graduate (so-to-speak) horror) against the Rigors of Political Correctness so that now ... ... Now I Can Pronounce that in America, in the new millenium, our Common Culture is purely Broadwood/Hollywood. FOLK IS DEAD. Our dear little children sing songs from Annie & Sound of Music & Grease & the Lion King & this is all considered Safe by educators because it is non-ethnic & non-denominational. Not a single one of the innocent little darlings at the performance tonight sang anything approaching a "folk song," regardless of its nationality--and don't think this is an aberration! During the school year my children attend an expensive (!) private school with an excellent arts program that I wouldn't begin to criticize because of its many other strengths but I will assert to this List that sometimes I think in our efforts to teach our children Multi-Culturalism (an admired goal) we ignore a couple of those mainstream (and white and old-fashioned and not recently-emigrated and thus not vigorously protected) cultures such as the English, Scottish, Irish and possibly the French. (The Spanish are safe because they were so Wretchedly Oppressed in (some portions of them at least ) the New World, and so Mexican songs are pretty well represented on the curriculum.) No one sings "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" or "Sweet Molly Malone" or "Go Tell it on the Mountain" anymore; no one sings Stephen Foster songs anymore (he is a native of my home town and another whole complicated topic; yet, until I was an adult, children were still taught Camptown Races & Jeannie & Dixie & the others, which represented--at least up until then--a shared cultural past: how else are you going to understand it when Bugs Bunny sings dreamily," I dream of Jeannie, she's a light brown hare"?) Where are our Appalachian songs or Child Ballads (which have such a strong Great Britain connection) except for the very few that have been sanitized?! Jiminy crickets, no one even sings Blowin' in the Wind & Kumbaya & Hangman anymore! And let us not even speak of the so-called American folk-dances that survive in their most primitive form!!!--circle L, circle R, R star, hop, hop hop. Yuck! So, whereas in the olden days in my 4th grade, I learned (and begged for, to my shame--and I hardly spoke aloud for years afterwards due to the derision my gentle little comrades gave me for asking for it) songs like "Paddy on the Railroad" (which in addition to being a cool, modal tune, challenging the major key-Brittany Spears'-oriented ear, contains peculiar lyrics that could make a child wonder why Paddy is working & where he's from & what he's working on, etc., which gives the clever educator an opportunity to discuss emigration issues in the mid-1800s and so on), our children today are learning musically uninteresting--though, doubtless politically correct--and spiritually uninteresting songs like "Let Your Candle Shine, Shine, Shine." Now, don't tell me that your children attend a progressive, Quaker school where they are not permitted to sing or dance anything written/collected after 1920! While there may be a handful of such establishments out there, I feel certain that they are in the minority. What are we going to do? Whether you like everything he did or not, Sharp founded the EFDSS on a pedagogical premise that he would provide an orderly (if somewhat sanitized) version of English folk stuff so that countless teachers & Y-leaders and so on could put it on their curricula to give the children 1) healthful exercise and 2) meaningful artistic/spiritual fulfilment . For example, I betcha that everyone on this list Of A Certain Age had a folk dance/square dance unit in their middle school/high school years and you can thank Sharp & his followers & even his opponents (in America) for this blessing. But what are your kids doing NOW with regard to our American folk culture? And--posing this question particularly (though not uniquely to Americans)--what SHOULD your kids be learning in a public school environment? La Cucaracha? fine. An African dance? fine. But what is the correspondent representative English or American dance? Last winter. my son's second grade class had a wonderful unit on Ghana that incorporated African song, dance, art, economics, etc--truly multi-disciplinary. It was wonderfully impressive & fulfilling, and I'd never suggest dropping it, but where's the correspondent effort for American/English dance/songs? Colonial era-minuets? Yuck. BORING. Totally not rad. I think we are complacent and lazy! For anyone who has reached the bottom of this Rant, I apologize--because there are so many thoughts struggling for expression herein, that you will have a hard time picking which one you want to jump on first. I certainly want my children to learn folk songs & dances from many lands in preference to most of the Broadway-type songs & dances (especially those icky ones with the un-naturally pubescent, if I have the right word, gestures--you know, the ones that make you want to change the channel very fast when you see any eight-year-old perform them). I think the modern songs are suspect on many fronts (though they may be Politically Correct). I guess I'm challenging those of us on the List, perhaps, in two ways: first, are we ensuring in general that our children are getting an appropriate education in the Arts? (Big one!) And, for those who are educators of or volunteers with children and really have an immediate opportunity to effect immediate change, are we providing them with an appropriate & fully rounded education in the folk arts, not excluding those of (old ) England and America? (I'm not really looking for people to state what their specific curriculum is, dance-by-dance, but, rather, how they decided on a goal & convinced educators to support it.) I know that lots of us do volunteering, etc. with specific groups--and of course, that's wonderful. I think I'd like to push beyond that point, though. Should the ECD-ers unite behind the Polka as the American National Dance? The Square Dance? (One hardly dares asks what or perhaps which square dance?) I'm not sure that I'm really asking whether eight-year-olds should be taught the Young Widow versus King George's Minuet. Each of us has lots of opinions on that topic based on experience & personal teaching style, and the answer could vary based on circumstance. But for all of us reading this post who like to participate in ECD: what is the minimum our children should learn in the public schools? Or perhaps more to the point (since we'lll each take care of our own kids), what should our neighbor's children learn? I started thinking about this post at 6:15 tonight (in the middle of Somewhere Over the Rainbow and slightly before Supercalii...y'know). I apologize if it's a little rambling: I know I'm looking for a definitive answer to an indefinite question.....perhaps the current presidential campaign will help me sort it out ... yes, yes, that's it ... (OUCH! I had to hit myself upside the head.) I suspect that many on this list will find much in what I've written to agree with, but let's move quickly beyond that: what is the next step? When our kids do a unit on Colonial America, what dance(s) should they learn and what should they learn about how dance fit into social life? When they learn about the Civil War, what songs (from all sides) should they learn? Or the pre WWI-period or the Puritan period or whatever... I think that the Brits have done a lot more (I just bought such a book) on on this issue of standardizing/proseltyzing what kind of dance/song educators can incorporate into their curriculums--so where's the US response? Or, since the US is indeed such a melting pot of cultures & emigration patterns, etc., where is the reasoned, historicallly accurate, yet still accessible version of such educational materials? I think that many of our pedagogical materials (of which I've made quite a collection) are woefully out-of-date. Who will pick up the gauntlet to address this issue for the new millenium? Surely there is someone out there with the talent, the interest, the expertise & the ability to obtain grant moneys to tackle this issue! Yours, over the rainbow, Allison Thompson http://www.musicsleuth.com/sqpress ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:55:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 00:54:16 -0400 From: "Linda M. Nelson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Attachments To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >If you feel you must attach a document, please use a TEXT file. Not all of >us can read someone else's application-specific file and to download 1516 >pages (Yes, that's what it was!) of jiberish is very frustrating and >totally useless. Hear, hear! I believe that the recent case was an accident. However, all attachments should be avoided when sending to this list! If tempted to attach some cool or useful thing, please just offer people the chance to ask for it off-list. I, for one, would greatly appreciate that approach. Cheers - Linda __________________________________________________ "Oh, yes. It's vital to remember who you really are. It's very important. It isn't a good idea to rely on other people or things to do it for you, you see. They always get it wrong." (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery") __________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:06:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:06:01 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <57.953a774.26ba57b9-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT OY! This is sick. You must have a death wish! On the other hand, how can one not rise to this challenge?! Here goes -- off the top of my head -- and in no particular order (frankly, I see/hear them all as equally annoying or dippy as the case may be).... In the annoying category: The Macarena The Barney Song (aka This Old Man) The Hokey Pokey How Much is that Doggy in the Window (must hear Peggy Lee singing) Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda (otherwise known as The Dance of the Hours from La Giocanda) (It's the tune that's annoying -- not the great Alan Sherman lyrics) Soldiers March from Faust (My father murdered a Kangaroo, Gave me the gristley parts to chew, Wasn't that a terrible thing to do, To give me to chew, the gristley parts of a Kangaroooooooo?) (Also goes in the dippy category) Memories, Music of the Night (or anything by ALW) Rain Drops Keep Falling on My Head (or anything by Burt Bachrach) MacArthur Park (perhaps in its own special category) In terms of dippy ECD: Indian Princess (Truly dippy, imho. Sorry) Antidote: anything you can think of by Bach, The Beatles or Stephen Sondheim; also select ECD tunes Actually there's a weekly public radio show out of Chicago devoted to bad and/or irritating music. I think it's called the Annoying Music Show or something like that. I've heard the guy who hosts it on NPR from time to time. Excruciating. Enough for now. Some of this stuff may actually stick. Quick turn on the radio! Late Breaking Addition to the Annoying Category: It was an...itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini that she wore for the first time today.... (as heard on NPR while writing this -- so much for turning on the radio). Suzanne // you had to ask! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:51:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:51:21 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/2/00 11:49:50 PM EST, allisonthompson-AT- juno.com writes: << What are we going to do? >> Weep! And not only are those "safe" Broadway/Disney tunes booorrrring -- they're bad, insipid, stupid music! (A new category.) Last summer, I saw a film/documentary about the Newport Folk Festival of 1963 or 64 (the one where Bob Dylan went electric). At one point Joan Baez and her sister sang "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" -- to a rapt crowd -- like it was an art song. It was kind of quaint. But I think those days are long gone, alas. Suzanne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:38:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:24:26 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000803102426.007f8750-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Don't apologize, Allison. I read to the end of your rant with pleasure at finding someone else thinking the way I do. In Europe, we may have couched the arguments in ifferent terms -- we are more likely to talk of rampant commerialism than of political correctness, for it's big money that is responsible for making the younger generation totally ignorant of traditional music and song. When radio and tv feed monotonous binary "music" into their heads 24 hours a day, there's no time left for anything else. Modern media have far more means to promote whatever will bring in the dollars or pounds, than we individuals will ever have. School teaching is a constant battle against the influence of popular (vulgar) tv, whatever your subject may be (kids wanting to shout, laugh, deride, applaud like overheated studio audiences), and it takes a lot of perseverence to put across an appreciation of music that, up to now, has stood the test of time, whether it be Cecil's or Mozart's. I have taught country & square dancing in primary schools in France, and they loved it, but what is an hour a week when compared with daily doses of radio, tv, or walkman stuff? I was always horrified that the other teachers systematically used noisy tasteless rock and pop for their activities, but apparently, they too, knoew of no other kind of music. My own children have enjoyed country and international folk dancing, but now they are young adults, they can find no-one their age intersted in such things -- and are even ashamed to admit that they have ever taken part in such old-fashioned pastimes. What can we do? I wish I knew. We can only go on enjoying the things we do with the tiny minority of people that are aware that there is a life outside of commercial pop culture. And *show* that we enjoy these traditions. In France , we have a new folk hero, José Bové, who has taken a strong stand against big business (imposing bland standardized products around the world) and in favour of the small farmer (regional traditional products with distinctive taste). Let us follow his example and take a strong stand against the rubbishy music being churned out in great quantities for the sole purpose of making quick money, only to be totally forgotten (along with the ephemeral "stars") once the profits dip. Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 07:03:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:03:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd from Tom Senior] Teaching drama teachers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Thomas Senior Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Tom Senior wrote: > > > Because of an article in the Tribune (CDS News July/August), i have been > >invited to present ECD to a class of high school theatre teachers involved > >with a summer course at Roosevelt University. I have a variety of things i > >intend to present, but wonder if any of you would like to suggest ideas > >about things a drama teacher would need to know about English Country > >Dancing? [snip] > > More controversial: My theory is that ECD served different social functions at > different times - that the 1600s USA dances allowed a small number of people to > show off in front of a large number, while the late-1700s longways duples > allowed more general participation, for example. Keith Whitlock's article "John Playford's _The English Dancing Master_ 1650/51 as Cultural Politics" in the Folk Music Journal, V. 7 no. 5 (1999) (published by EFDSS) has rather persuasive and intriguing arguments about the origins of Playford's material -- he says (p. 564) "Having argued the plausibility of Playford's first edition of dances being largely resourced in theatre and masque, and especially Jonsonian masques and the plays of Brome,..." -- I think that this article could provide a valuable perspective to teachers of drama who wish to incorporate ECD in their productions. (Thanks to Philippe Callens to bringing this article to the attention of readers of this list!) Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 08:05:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:00:00 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002801bffd5b$803d1040$4398adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Hi folks: If anyone has written a dippier tune than "The Name Game" I haven't heard it yet. Although "Oh! Nick-O-Deemo" comes close. So: The Name Game > Oh! Nick-O-Deemo Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 08:37:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:46:20 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <398993CB.DF6C9BEC-AT- globalnetisp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Hear! Hear! Thank you Allison-certainly no need to apologize! Political corectness may be all well and good and it is nice to explore the tributaries but it shouldn't be at the expense of neglect of the main stream. The current ignorance of history (not just in dance or music) is deplorable. What a shame to watch a quiz progam on TV and find three competitors who knew every current TV and Pop Music star but didn't know how many rode into "the valley of death". Oh dear! By the way: I not only have some of Elizabeth Burchenal's books but was introduced to English Country Dance in her CDSS classes, I think even before I danced with Maryanne and Michael Herman. Ben Stein dancers-AT- globalnetisp.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 08:44:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:38:27 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <00ba01bffd60$fa94b280$4398adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Dear Allison and the rest of the list: Allison, thank you for a wonderfully well-thought-out rant. I agree, pretty much -- America's children get nothing but pablum, and not even good pablum. And now, to tie it up with the other thread: What Allison is talking about is that Henry Ford lost his battle for the purity of American culture. His interest in folk dancing, and his concurrent support of fiddle contests around the country, came from his perception that American pop music (Tin Pan Alley products, at the time, plus jazz) had been corrupted by nefarious "foreign" influences. By which old Henry meant, mostly, Jews. Ford was a notorious anti-Semite, publishing endless diatribes on the subject in his owned-and-operated newspaper; he even republished that hoary old forgery, "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". (To his credit, he later apologized when its forged nature was proven definitively.) He also didn't approve of "Negro music", or jazz, feeling it was too wild and energizing, and of course he heartily disapproved of the Charleston and other wild dances. So he came to sponsor a mass revival of interest in a truly Amurrican dance form, the square dance. (Yes, I know he was dead wrong about its origins. He was wrong about other things too.) The pendulum has now, of course, shifted; multicultural has come, unfortunately, to mean that we play music relating to the kids that actually happen to be in our classroom. African music if we have African-American kids, Asian music (a tiny bit) if we have Asian-Americans, etc.. There are plenty of things wrong with this approach. One of them is that, for example, Polish-American kids never get to find out that they have a lively cultural history too; we only apply it to kids of color. Which is a pity, because listening to Karola Stoch fiddling next to an Indian fiddler next to a Yoruba drummer next to a flute from Turkestan next to a Sepik flute gives a real perspective into the breadth of musical possibilities -- and, sometimes, the interconnectedness and convergence of possibilities. The other problem is that it assumes African-American kids need to learn about their culture, but other kids don't need to learn about African-American culture. Hogwash -- the little white kids maybe need to learn it even more than the little black kids, who may get some at home, church, etc.. Vice versa too. And Anglo-American is an ethnic group like any other. So no one should get excluded; multi-cultural should mean *everyone*. So Henry lost, and we swung the other way. In this country, we don't seem to be able to find appropriate middle grounds, and that's a problem. Finally, a bit more about Ford. He had some surprising ties to Nazi Germany -- well, not so surprising considering his views on Jews. They liked him for his ideas about mass production and factory organization, and he seems to have visited often before the war. (American Jews boycotted Ford cars for many years; my family was a bit scandalized when I bought an Escort as late as 1983.) So the connection between a woman involved in folk dance who may have been connected with the Ford organization and Germany after WWII may not be so far-fetched. Oh, and one more thing. Ford was wrong about a remarkable number of things, but he was right about Tin Pan Alley. It *was*, to a great extent, dominated by Jews, as was the recording industry and indeed the entire entertainment industry at the time. This is an odd little corner of cultural history that bears looking at; I recommend a book called "Inventing America" (forget the author) about how a small group of Russian Jewish immigrants created the movie industry of the 20s-40s, and in so doing they also created a great deal of America's self image. Not to mention our modern sense of humor, as until the 1960s virtually all of our great comedians were Jewish, and came out of the Borscht Belt and vaudeville. Fascinating stuff. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:16:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:16:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000803161601.5210.qmail-AT- web1603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As it happens, show tunes are every bit as genuine an expression of American culture as folk music, and some damn fine music and song-writing as well! I don't know any really good musician who doesn't appreciate the contribution that show music has made to American musical culture. Furthermore, can we please stop hysterically attributing every disagreement over taste or behavior to this creeping, infectious evil known as "political correctness" that has become as big a bugaboo in American consciousness in the past decade as the "red menace" was in the 50s. Anything at all that someone disagrees with is a symptom of "political correctness." The real problem is this idea that there are no such things as legitimate differences in taste, and that anyone who exhibits a different preference must therefore be acting as the agent of an Evil Empire. The simple fact is that people like different things, and may even think different things are appropriate to teach children without being a puppet of some dark force. Viva Cole Porter! Barbara Ruth ===== Do you know about the Hunger Site? Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site. No purchases - all you do is click on the site. Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:34:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:34:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: crie de coeur To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Mr Sheffield, in a riff off Ms Thompson's crie de coeur, writes: "In France , we have a new folk hero, José Bové, who has taken a strong stand against big business (imposing bland standardized products around the world) and in favour of the small farmer (regional traditional products with distinctive taste). Let us follow his example and take a strong stand against the rubbishy music being churned out in great quantities for the sole purpose of making quick money, only to be totally forgotten (along with the ephemeral "stars") once the profits dip." *** Isn't this rather beside the point? Allison's point was what is taught in schools, not how the French are going to save the world from McDonald's. And excuse me, they are different things entirely: the 'good old songs' have disappeared from American curricula not because Evil Big Business (Ronald McDonald, wearing a top hat, smoking a cigar one supposes and leering at his secretary) dictates, but because too many of the 'good old songs' were perceived as being racist sexist ethnocentric etc etc. That at least seemed to much of Allison's main point: not really Britney Spears (though said BS did come up) but she (AT, not BS) starts with what her kids are, and are not being taught in school. Steve Corrsin corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel (248) 661-6283 fax (248) 661-6288 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:49:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:49:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Schneider and the woman To: ecd-digest-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks: especially Pat Ruggiero seems to have provided a solid lead. I had no idea of the "Rocky Mountain" connection and I betcha she is right. Since I live and work approx 30 min drive from Dearborn MI, I will check out whatever archives may be available... Also will contact Lloyd Shaw foundation and see who, if anyone, went to England in the summer of 1938 when Hauptsturmfuhrer Schneider was tripping around. Sad to say, even if I find all this it won't be more than a footnote. But it's a hoot nonetheless. I guess my question set off a flurry of thoughts about Henry Ford but that was not my intent. Steve Corrsin corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com 5166 Patrick Rd. West Bloomfield MI 48322 tel (248) 661-6283 fax (248) 661-6288 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:57:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:51:59 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <003801bffd73$87d65420$2bffdcd1-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803161601.5210.qmail-AT- web1603.mail.yahoo.com> <> Quite true. And hysteria's always a bad idea. Nonetheless, I think Political Correctness as a social force does exist, and it's a mind-numbing as any other unthought-out notion. Most of the critiques have come from the right wing, either cultural or political, and so many of us have waved them off. I come from the left wing, and I say Political Correctness, ** as practiced these days in America ** is the codification of stupidity. What do I mean? I mean that it makes sense to, for example, avoid singing songs like "Nigger Likes his Possum" in schools, to take an obvious extreme example (yes, that's a genuine pop song title from the early 20th century). No reason to perpetrate rotten, demeaning and hateful stereotypes. Or to hurt people gratuitously. What doesn't make sense is to adopt a knee-jerk response. For example: Our local public library "de-acquisitioned" most of its vinyl about 10 years ago, including an extensive collection of folk music. The head of Tech Services decreed that they would dump everything, but would make an exception for African-American music, because that was important. Well, it *is* important, and so is Polish-American, and Italian-American, and Haitian, and Korean, and... Pfui. (It was, incidentally, a white person making this move.) I suppose I shouldn't complain, since our community radio station got all the stuff they dumped, and my radio program has prospered on account of it, but it's still dumb. And it leaves the kids of our fair city with a one-dimensional view of tradition. Peace, Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:31:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:31:49 +0200 From: M Sheffield Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: cri de coeur To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000803203149.007f7ec0-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I wrote about the alol-pervading modern commercial music that has shouldered older more traditional forms oput of modern youths consciousness. Steve asked: >Isn't this rather beside the point? sorry, steve, I can't agree that the older songs have disappeared solely because of political correct dogma. In Europe, we are not yet ashamed of singing racist and sexist songs (we, the over 50s). We are only just beginning to fall over backwards trying to be "correct" with our minorities etc. North African music is now appearing on the radio in France, at last, but this is not the reason that youngsters are unaware of traditional European music. You may not agree with me that (some) big business is evil (profits today, let the devil take tomorrrow), but, if there were not so much easy money to be made out of mediocre recordings of third-rate bands, if big business had not the means to promote whatever it wants to sell us, there would not be so much mechanical (or rather, digital) music on radio and tv, and our young school teachers would perhaps have some knowledge of real music to pass on to their younger pupils. (nor would there be so much tasteless food of doubtful nutritional value in the shops -- but let's leave that aside). I can't help feeling that policial correctness in the US was all a plot to get rid of the old in order to make way for the more profitable new (no royalties on folk songs -- big bucks from pop). Yes, it was a "cri du coeur" -- from someone who is very sad at seeing everything traditional being depicted as old-fashioned, out-dated, and not worth a second glance. Martin, in Grenoble, France. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm (dance groups, some new dances ...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:57:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:56:32 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <20000803.011632.-515195.5.AllisonThompson-AT- juno.com> Very delicate subject, this. Sure is interesting to see how people are sounding in on it. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:24:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:23:54 -0700 (PDT) From: MEIER-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01JSJ6F1OZ5U9QV8Z1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Oh, this is a cruel topic to see first thing in the morning. Bruce, what are you *really* going to do with this knowledge when you've compiled it? I mean, service to humanity or diabolical death trap? Maybe you could just send this information off to the Rise Up Singing editors so they can create a special Dippy section in their next edition. The worst part about Dippy Tunes is not remembering the whole song. Any song becomes "dippy" when you can only hear half a verse repeating endlessly. It's a Small, Small World The Banana Splits theme song (La la laaa, la-la la laaa/La la laaa, la-la la laaa/One banana, two banana, three banana four...) > It's a Small, Small World Fandango (less so if you think of it as tump-te-tum instead of la-la-la, but not much; I didn't realize this was a Dippy Tune until I started going through my mental ECD list, and had to resort to It's a Small, Small World to remove it) Chantilly Lace Happy Days are Here Again Flintstones, meet the Flintstones... If You Want to Sing Out, Sing Out by Cat Stevens (this song can cause violence; the struggle that resulted from some recent renditions of this song caused one person in the car to lose an earring) Jam Up and Jelly Tight I Know a Song That Gets on Everybody's Nerves Late-breaking scientific bulletin: Studies Have Shown that I Know a Song That Gets on Everybody's Nerves = Banana Splits Theme Song! (These in fact sound almost good when sung together, and we only need one more for the Quodlibet from Hell.) While I agree that the following must all be Dippy Tunes, London Bridges > Mr. Ed > Teddy Bears' Picnic > We're Off to See the Wizard have been on my Dippy Tune list for so long that their Dippiness burnt away for me. I concur with the ranking given, though. There's another cure for dippy, and that's well-done intentional humor. I contend that Swing Low Sweet Chariot or the Yogi Bear Song, from the Pete Campbell collection, will erase even It's a Small, Small World for anyone who's seen them. Off to clear my head with some Stan Freberg or Weird Al Yankovic, Vanessa Schnatmeier ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:35:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:30:04 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Fw: More Fw: Poor Cecil! To: ecd list Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <001101bffd81$3b2bd4c0$ce98adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks: I forwarded chunks of our discussion to my friend Steve Pick, old comrade in radio, occasional rock critic for local papers, and good thinker. He wrote back: <> Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:38:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:35:14 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: >The Good News: I've found a way to get a dippy tune out of my head. >The Bad News: The way is to hum a dippier tune. > >And so, my brain already poisoned, I had this terrible thought: could our >discussion group come up with an authoritative list of dippy tunes, in order >of increasing dippiness? Is there one that's dippier than all others? Bruce, although I already forwarded my nominees and suspicions about your moral character to you directly, I had a thought about this that I wanted to pass along. Aren't you really talking about the whole premise of "maggots" here? Mary Beth <-- sprinting away as fast as possible while whistling a happy tune ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:56:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 2:25:11 PM EST, MEIER-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: << the Quodlibet from Hell.) >> I really like that! << Stan Freberg >> Yessss! (Too many moons we live here White Cloud. Time to unload this crummy island.) Also, Tom Lehrer Suzanne ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:11:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:05:45 -0400 From: Sheila Beardslee Bosworth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ><< Stan Freberg >> > >Yessss! (Too many moons we live here White Cloud. Time to unload this >crummy island.) Ah, but you out of luck today -- banks closed. Why? Today Columbus Day... Do we go out on that joke? No, we do reprise of song but it doesn't help much. And let's not forget the tap-dancing moccasins at Thanksgiving... Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilabb-AT- earthlink.net Editor, Boston Early Music News Deadline Aug 20 for Sept 15 issue: events Sept 15-Dec. 31 WEB Calendar www.medieval.org/emfaq/concerts/bemn/ Pavane website www.earlymusicboston.com/pavane 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 VOX 978/263.9926 FAX 978/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:17:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:16:39 -0400 From: "Emily L. Ferguson" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'd rather talk about dippy dances. Emily L. Ferguson elf-AT- cape.com 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography Beetle cats on the web at: http://www.capecodlife.com/CCD/regions/upper_cape.html http://www.beetlecat.com/gifts.htm http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:29:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:29:16 -0400 From: Maryn McKenna Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >I'd rather talk about dippy dances. > > Parson's Farewell > any other dance you can name. maryn atlanta etc. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:30:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <96.7f234d5.26bb3071-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 3:12:06 PM EST, sheilabb-AT- earthlink.net writes: << And let's not forget the tap-dancing moccasins at Thanksgiving... >> Or Ben Franklin who doesn't want to sign Tom Jefferson's "subversive" petition, forget all about it, and get hauled up before a committee. "I don't want to spend the rest of my days writing in Europe." TJ: What makes you so surly? BF: Surly to bed, and surly to rise." Da dat, da dahhhh. What was that? French horns. To say nothing of his classic commercials -- Tetley Tea, Pittsburgh Paint, Contadina Tomato Paste (8 great tomatoes in that itty-bitty can) and the best of all... the one for Radio: Announcer: We're going to drain Lake Erie, fill it hot chocolate, cover it with a mountain of whipped cream, and have the Royal Canadian Air Force drop a maraschino cherry on top. An orgy of sound effects. Announcer: I'd like to see you try that on television. Suzanne // OK I'll stop now. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:59:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:59:45 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Now, now. Civilization is not crumbling; it's really "the more it changes, the more it remains the same." When I was young my Dad used to rant about how worthless current popular music was and how much better it was in the '40's. Now my friends wax nostalgic about early Beatles until I'm sure their kids are ready to gag. Was pop music ever anything but insipid? The lyrics to popular renaissance music seem to mostly translate to, "Oh, lady, if you won't love me I'm gonna die." They just used endless "Fa la la" refrains instead of "hey, hey, hey." When I was in grade school, we learned a lot of '60's folk songs like "If I Had a Hammer". I assumed that these really were folk songs that everyone had always sung. It wasn't until much later that I found out how much of that "folk music" was recently created. The people who promoted the "folk music revival" had an agenda. Cecil Sharpe had an agenda. If you look closely, most folk materials have been discovered, promoted (or invented) by people with an agenda as much socio-politcal as artistic. "Political correctness" is just the latest agenda. Nevertheless, it is worth asking what "traditions" should be passed on. Given that each generation picks and chooses out of its history those elements that it thinks will enhance its values, we are right to ask what positive cultural, artistic, etc. values the music and dance we love can promote. A sense of history? A shared creation rather than everyone acting alone? An appreciation of balance and symetry? There's nothing politically incorrect about that. --Mary Railing ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:45:50 -0700 From: Laurie Andres Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <398A123C.B31861FB-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <3.0.5.32.20000803102426.007f8750-AT- pop.wanadoo.fr> I heartily agree with Martin Sheffield's comments below about "rampant commercialism", but I do not agree that it is the same as "political correctness". "PC" is a term invented by the conservative right wing in the good old US of A. It is a red herring to distract attention from the real problems of society and education such as: inadequate funding, conservative school boards approving mealy mouthed textbooks, and more attention given to indoctrination of children in capitalism and to become complacent workers then to educating and cultivating their minds and talents. Of course it goes beyond education. As Martin pointed out, We are fighting against commercial media (read BIG money) in the culture battle. Please don't blame the small attempts at multiculturalism for poor education. If we are going to get along, understand other people and preserve folk arts and cultural history. We need more multiculturalism. M Sheffield wrote: > > Don't apologize, Allison. > I read to the end of your rant with pleasure at finding someone else > thinking the way I do. > In Europe, we may have couched the arguments in ifferent terms -- we are > more likely to talk of rampant commerialism than of political correctness, > for it's big money that is responsible for making the younger generation > totally ignorant of traditional music and song. > When radio and tv feed monotonous binary "music" into their heads 24 hours > a day, there's no time left for anything else. Modern media have far more > means to promote whatever will bring in the dollars or pounds, than we > individuals will ever have. School teaching is a constant battle against > the influence of popular (vulgar) tv, whatever your subject may be (kids > wanting to shout, laugh, deride, applaud like overheated studio audiences), > and it takes a lot of perseverence to put across an appreciation of music > that, up to now, has stood the test of time, whether it be Cecil's or > Mozart's. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:39:37 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008040039.TAA22890-AT- kodos.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Vanessa Schnatmeier wrote: >Off to clear my head with some Stan Freberg or Weird Al Yankovic, Stan Freberg's cartoon version of "The Banana Boat Song," which works nicely as a sound track without cartoon, should be incredibly good displacement material. And for those in another thread, bemoaning the politically correct state of music in schools, Freberg's comic conversion of "Ol' Man River" into "Elderly Man River" (first done on his radio show in the early 60's, I think) should provide some distraction. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804005546.16786.qmail-AT- web3305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: > OY! This is sick. You must have a death wish! On the other > hand, how can one not rise to this challenge?! > > The Macarena > Just as bad as that is the Chicken Dance. Several of us from the Monday night Scandinavian group went to the Bi-annual Finnish Festival in Naselle, Washington several years ago. It is a tiny town of primarily Finnish ancestry about twelve miles north of the Columbia River bridge at Astoria. These people know very little of their folk heritage. A young couple from Finland had been performing music all day and they would only play for dancing for a half hour that evening. Several people scrounged through their cars for tapes and we danced Scandinavian folk dances, but the only dance we had music for that the local townspeople knew was the Chicken Dance. They did it *seven* times that night. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:04:24 -0700 From: Laurie Andres Subject: Re: crie de coeur To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <398A1695.911AFAF5-AT- earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Steve - I contend the publishers are withdrawing public domain material from textbooks, because they can make more money on the copyrighted slop being churned out. Laurie Andres "Stephen D. Corrsin" wrote: > > Isn't this rather beside the point? Allison's point was what is taught in > schools, not how the French are going to save the world from McDonald's. And > excuse me, they are different things entirely: the 'good old songs' have > disappeared from American curricula not because Evil Big Business (Ronald > McDonald, wearing a top hat, smoking a cigar one supposes and leering at his > secretary) dictates, but because too many of the 'good old songs' were > perceived as being racist sexist ethnocentric etc etc. That at least seemed > to much of Allison's main point: not really Britney Spears (though said BS > did come up) but she (AT, not BS) starts with what her kids are, and are not > being taught in school. > > Steve Corrsin > corrsin1-AT- hotmail.com > 5166 Patrick Rd. > West Bloomfield MI 48322 > tel (248) 661-6283 > fax (248) 661-6288 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:00:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:33:25 -0400 From: Meredith Birmingham Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000803183132.00ad0930-AT- neo.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As a teenager, I know it may seem that most of us listen to nothing but pop, rap, heavy metal, and other versions of "Modern American" music. For some, that is very true. Some acquaintances of mine scorn anything that predates 1990! But, there is hope! In my music appreciation class last year, I suggested that my class have a small ECD session, and most people were enthusiastic. Whether this had to do with dancing, or just getting out of classwork I don't know, but the whole activity went off very well! Just by convincing my teacher that it would reinforce concepts of rhythm, consonance, dissonance, etc., the idea was accepted. As it turned out, kids from many backgrounds and heritages enjoyed the activity, and I doubt whether any of us gave a thought as to whether we were being politically correct! As long as people enjoy what they do, most probably do not care whether their hobbies lean in the direction of one heritage or another. Still, political correctness is present, and definitely not blameless. I sometimes think that I know more about African-Americans' history than my own. When do we learn intensively about German-American heritage, for example? As a junior in high school, I still have not had a good look at that part of my history. My two cents. Meredith Birmingham mbirming-AT- neo.rr.com http://members.xoom.com/mbirmingham/bronte.htm "Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life." -Auerbach ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:07:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:30:24 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008040130.UAA12756-AT- kang.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. (By the way, not wishing to be picky but unable to stop myself, generally speaking, tune + lyric = song.) There are a lot of wonderfully dippy 6/8 tunes from northeast North America. The French Canadien folks dance to 3 part 6/8 quadrilles that are fountains of sweetness and light. Unfortunately, many of them seem to go by such memorable names as "gigue en C" and "quadrille en G." An accessible tune of the sort is "Spider Island Jig" played by Jerry Robichaud on "Maritime Dance Party." His upright style makes it sound even dippier than it otherwise might. Don't get me wrong... I love these tunes, but they are dippy enough to drive out most other stuff -- and without benefit of annoying lyric content. My personal favorite method of displacing nagging music is unorthodox... I re-imagine the tune in a different time signature. Converting a jig to a reel or a reel to a waltz is not only entertaining, but often reminds me of yet another tune; then I'm completely rid of the offender. Particularly nagging music will usually succumb to conversion to 5/4, 7/4, or the 2-2-2-3 version of 9/8. I try not to sprain anything while doing this. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:08:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:08:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 10:08:20 PM EST, diggle-AT- bigfoot.com writes: << SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. (By the way, not wishing to be picky but unable to stop myself, generally speaking, tune + lyric = song.) >> Ummmm. I've said quite a few things on this topic, but not these particular words. They should be attributed correctly, but I'm not sure to whom they belong. In fact, one of the things that I find truly annoying is when a dance tune pops into my head, and I can't think of it's name. Suzanne // not offended just making things perfectly clear ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:50:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:50:06 -0400 (EDT) From: SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3b.824dd09.26bba57e-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/3/00 11:17:02 AM EST, barbararuth-AT- rocketmail.com writes: << Viva Cole Porter! >> I'm definitely with you there. But the Broadway "greats" of the past -- Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Kern, Rogers & Hammerstein and Sondheim (to name a few) -- created brilliant, sophisticated, witty shows (with the possible exception of The Sound of Music -- that entire show could go on the Annoying/Dippy Music list, imho). Now adays what do we have? The insipid, banal, witless stuff coming created by Disney, Andrew Lloyd Weber (considered by some to be the anti-Christ) and the other mega hits of recent years (eg Les Miz, Miss Saigon, Phantom, Cats, and the truly dreadful Sunset Blvd. -- when the best thing is the scenery, something is definitely wrong). It's true that some songs from the past have problematic sentiments or references that just wont do these days. That's really more than PC -- it's a reflection of how society has changed. But there are plenty of songs that still OK. Many of us -- children of the 60s -- came age with songs that reflected our political and social concerns. Songs had real meaning for us. Those songs are not likely to speak to the younger generation. Music has different meaning and uses these days -- it seems more superficial -- but who knows. But it does seem sad, that many (not to say all) of our "folk" songs -- so rich with meaning and history and just great tunes -- are apparently no longer a part of our culture. It can't all be rock 'n roll. Suzanne // kumbayah ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:57:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:57:33 -0500 From: Roger Diggle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <200008040557.AAA13551-AT- serak.svc.tds.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 8/3/00 10:08:20 PM EST, diggle-AT- bigfoot.com writes: > ><< SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com *never* wrote: <------------------ Ooops > Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel > deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most > of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. > (By the way, not wishing to be picky but unable to stop myself, > generally speaking, tune + lyric = song.) >> > > >Ummmm. I've said quite a few things on this topic, but not these particular >words. They should be attributed correctly, but I'm not sure to whom they >belong. > >In fact, one of the things that I find truly annoying is when a dance tune >pops into my head, and I can't think of it's name. > >Suzanne // not offended just making things perfectly clear Ooops, my apologies... I thought I had erased that attribution line. I'm afraid that I said all that stuff myself. Roger Diggle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:22:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:22:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804072230.5332.qmail-AT- web3301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Meredith Birmingham wrote: > <> > > Still, political correctness is present, and definitely not > blameless. I sometimes think that I know more about > African-Americans' history than my own. When do we learn > intensively about German-American heritage, for example? As a > junior in high school, I still have not had a good look at > that part of my history. > I remember years ago, long before it became known as political correctness, when African-American related topics began to be introduced into the inner city schools which were primarily Black. I heard a story of students in a small school district in Minnesota demanding that classes be taught that studied their Scandinavian heritage. There were few, if any, Blacks in their system and the cultural heritage of the majority of students had *never* been taught. Andy in Portland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:37:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:31:46 -0500 From: Paul Stamler Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <002601bffde6$0c7bab40$2f96adce-AT- pstamler> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: ><< Stan Freberg >> "Day-o! Day-o!" (Footsteps. Doorknob rattles. Pounding on door. More footsteps. Crash and tinkle of glass:) "I come through the window." "Daylight come and me wan' go home." Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:39:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:39:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Peterson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <20000804073941.3746.qmail-AT- web3306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT --- Roger Diggle wrote: > SFORDNYC-AT- aol.com wrote: > Reading the list of songs in this thread so far, I feel > deeply blessed that I have dance tunes running in my head most > of the time. I need only rarely to displace popular poop. > For years I have worked with people who *must* have the radio on all the time. I'm not at all thrilled by the music, since what I listen to, when it's my own choice, is the music that I dance to, which is not remotely mainstream. What I really object to most is the constant babble that goes on *between* songs. From the moment one song fades until the next one begins, there is constant noise. The volume usually is not loud enough to really hear the music and the constant underlying noise is *very* annoying and distracting. I usually have some tune running through my head and would much rather live with that than the noise coming from the direction of the radio. I was talking about this constant annoyance with Lyrl one time and she suggested that people have the radio on in order to drown out the thoughts that are churning through their heads. They don't like to think about their troubles so they drown out all thought of them. I'd much rather think an ECD or Scandinavian tune than the evil thoughts that so annoy others. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:06:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Poor Cecil! To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01JSJYYLXT6A9BVEQW-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Suzanne wrote: >In a message dated 8/3/00 11:17:02 AM EST, barbararuth-AT- rocketmail.com writes: ><< Viva Cole Porter! >> >I'm definitely with you there. But the Broadway "greats" of the past -- >Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Kern, Rogers & Hammerstein and Sondheim (to name a >few) -- created brilliant, sophisticated, witty shows (with the possible >exception of The Sound of Music -- that entire show could go on the >Annoying/Dippy Music list, imho). Now adays what do we have? The insipid, >banal, witless stuff coming created by Disney, Andrew Lloyd Weber (considered >by some to be the anti-Christ) and the other mega hits of recent years (eg >Les Miz, Miss Saigon, Phantom, Cats, and the truly dreadful Sunset Blvd. -- >when the best thing is the scenery, something is definitely wrong). While I yield to no one in complaining about all of Sir Andrew's work since _Dreamcoat_, I feel compelled to point out that that isn't _all_ we have. I think Ashman & Menken were a brilliant team - listen to the _Little Shop of Horrors_ original cast album - and also did some very respectable work for Disney. _The Scarlet Pimpernel_ has some pretty good songs in it, although I disremember who wrote them. While I'm disremembering the composers of current musicals, _Side Show_ is a fabulous musical drama and _Everything's Ducky_ quite an amusing show with good songs in a variety of styles. (I also feel compelled to point out that Sondheim was still working, last I heard.) While I'm at it, I have to recommend the South Park movie as the best musical film of the decade. The Bolton/Wodehouse/Kern musicals were hailed for actually having stories, vapid and trivial though they seem now. The Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, starting with Oklahoma, were hailed for having _serious_ stories. I contend that the more serious you are about the stories, the less room there is for sparkling songs that work well outside of the context of the show, songs that become standards like so many of the Porter, Gershwin, and Berlin numbers. Which is partly why songs from current musicals don't usually get covered by poop stars and get lots of radio play, like they did in the 40s - they don't work as well outside the show. Anyway, by the time you get to a show so serious about the story as Les Miz, it's not surprising that you don't have anything to whistle on the way home. But this whole argument - which I, through lack of personal discipline, couldn't resist - is spectacularly beside the point, or at least besides Allison's point. It's not just that the songs at school and camp are songs that suck; it's that they are commercial, owned, songs, and that they're supplanting the folk songs that might have been assumed to be part of our cultural inheritance. That brings up a whole bunch of complicated questions. As someone has already pointed out, most of our ECD music was written, published, sold at some point in its history. Our whole ECD revival is an artificial construct. Folk music (and dance) and commercial music (and dance) have long had an interaction. Morris dances have been collected that turned out to be set to music hall or minstel show songs. Philippe Callens said at Mendocino that he'd traced the melody of "Double Lead Through" to an operetta performed in the 1870s. And so on. But the reason those two cultures (folk and professional) could interact was that both were alive and well. What are parents singing to their children now? What stories are they telling them? Or are the kids watching a lot of videos? If you'd seen _The Lion King_ a hundred and fifty times, you'd have all the songs memorized as well, and you'd understand them, too. And they'd be the equivalent of whatever you learned at your mother's knee - it would make you happy to sing them. Is this evil? Maybe. Can we fix it by teaching them "Old Dan Tucker" in school? I doubt it (especially considering that one of our big problems in the Bay Area in running a traditional square dance series is that people did square dancing in grade school and hated it). I think the best we can do is keep it alive, keep it going and enjoyable, and make sure that when those young people with whom it resonates come around, it's still there for them to find. I do think it's worth doing traditional music and dance in the schools if it's done well, so that the kids enjoy it. It's easy to turn them off. If we can get specialists who are good at it in, rather than simply add it to the workload of the existing teachers, it may well be worthwhile. It may be better to work up family dances in association with PTAs, church groups, etc. Up too late, I remain -- Alan PS: I happened to be at "Paramount's Great America" last Friday. This is an amusement park - lots of roller coasters - where the Muzak equivalent is usually movie themes. Over in the Nickelodeon area, next to the slime machine, the speakers were playing someone singing "Old Dan Tucker" accompanied by guitar. I was surprised enough to be just standin' there, lookin. -- APW =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 07:17:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:17:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dippy tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Roger Diggle wrote: [snip] > There are a lot of wonderfully dippy 6/8 tunes from northeast > North America. The French Canadien folks dance to 3 part 6/8 > quadrilles that are fountains of sweetness and light. What makes a tune dippy? Clearly, there's an unusual combination of good and bad elements which contribute to this particular quality. As tunes, perhaps, they're highly successful, in a sense, in that you go away humming them; too successful, perhaps, when you _can't_ stop humming them before you're totally bored with them. Lyrics which you associate with the tune clearly play an important role in establishing a tune's dippiness, I think. Having alternate & possibly satirical versions offers some remedy, it seems, from what folks have said. The emotional level of the lyrics, in my opinion, has much to do with our attribution of dippiness to a tune. Context, too, is probably important -- if a song reminds you of a particular time that you heard it, your reaction will very likely be influenced by whether that occasion was one which you like to remember or not. So if you had family gatherings which would rise/degenerate to songfests in your past, the songs they sung might bring back warm, nostalgic memories or remind you of horrors from which you fled. Dylan Thomas, in "A Child's Christmas in Wales" (or something like that) describes such a scene, and G. B. Shaw once described in a music review of Beethoven's "Eroica" symphony how he was unable to write a critical review because one movement always reminded him of the carriage journeys with family members at funerals of one of their clan, going from the church in Dublin to the cemetery in the countryside, and this so completely swept away other thoughts that he didn't really hear the music. Familiarity, too, seems to be a big element. Some folks have suggested, as examples of non-dippy music, anything by the likes of J. S. Bach & others; but I suspect that many piano students would put a number of the tunes from the "Notenbuechlein fuer Anna Magdalena Bach" on their dippy tunes list. Some pretty good music used out of context, e.g. as theme songs for radio & tv program, or in weddings, becomes associated with those things primarily and the original context forgotten, if it was known in the first place -- I'm sure I don't have to mention some of the more obvious examples for you to come up with some -- but I do remember my surprise when I found myself playing the "Masterpiece Theater" theme song out of a Marshall Barron duet book! What are