Archive-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:56:37 PST
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:06:00 -0500
From: Don Bell <dbell1-AT-
nycap.rr.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Thanks for Great Advice on Teaching Beginners !
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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To everyone who responded on the teaching beginners theme,

Many thanks for all the great ideas and advice.
My beginner program has been much enriched.
New dancers will benefit greatly from your helpful comments.

This list is a wonderful source of support and inspiration for
teaching/calling English !

Don Bell

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:42:14 PST
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:41:01 -0500
From: Mary E Jones <mjones-AT-
javanet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Experienced Dancer Alert
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT

East Coast Experienced English Country Dancers Converge On Amherst,
Mass.

Sunday, March 19th from 2 - 5 p.m.  Munson Library, South Amherst, Mass.

Scott Higgs calling with Margaret Ann Martin, piano, Earl Gaddis,
violin, and Lise Brown, flute.

This dance is for all who are thoroughly familiar with ECD figures...a
ball without the get-up or the memorizing.

ADDED TREAT!!!!!

Scott Higgs will be calling an English Country Dance For All
on Saturday night, March 18th from 8 - 11 p.m. at Munson Library in
South Amherst, with music by Pleasures of the Town.

Make a weekend of it - We will!

For more information, email me directly or call 413-549-8159.

Mary Jones
Amherst, MA

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:40:52 PST
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:37:15 -0500
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dances-with-a-Difference Ball
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SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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ADVANCE NOTICE

First event in a new series: 'Dances from modern sources'

Saturday 9 September 2000, 7.30 to 11 p.m.

The Dances-with-a-Difference Ball

with Colin Hume and The Falconers

at The Victoria Hall, Tring, Hertfordshire (about 25 miles north of London)

See the Ball website at  http://www.biclab.co.uk/dwadball

The programme of dances selected by Colin Hume will be available in
advance,
with dance notations.  There will be no walk-throughs at the Ball itself
(Colin
will call just sufficiently to keep the dances going) but some reminders of
the
dances will be given at a session with Colin starting at 4.30 p.m. on the
day
of the Ball (venue to be decided).

Between the afternoon practice session and the Ball itself, a starter and
main
course dinner will be available, for an extra charge.

During the interval at the Ball, ice-cream will be provided.

It will also be possible to book bed-and-breakfast in Tring, and join Colin
at
a further get-together on Sunday morning.

Admission by ticket only, numbers strictly limited.  To reserve a place,
please
write (including stamped addressed envelope) to
Ian and Val McFarlane, 107 Holtspur Top Lane, Beaconsfield, Bucks, HP9 1DT,
UK
or email imcf-AT-
biclab.force9.co.uk
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:45:02 PST
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:44:12 -0500
From: Lou Vosteen <lvosteen-AT-
widomaker.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Williamsburg Ball
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[206.246.249.184]>
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There is still space available for the Williamsburg Heritage Dancers annual
George Washington Ball on Saturday, March 4, 2000, at the University
Center, College of Williams & Mary, Williamsburg, Virginia.

The dances are:

Allemande Swiss Cotillion, Barbarini's Tambourine, Bare Necessities, Bonny
Cuckoo, Elverton Grove, Fair & Softly, His Royal Highness the Prince of
Wales, Harvest Home, In the Bleak Midwinter, Installation, John Tallis's
Canon, Kelsterne Gardens, Never Love thee More, Kneeland Romp, Trip to
Kilburn, Wa is Me What Mun I Do? Wakefield Hunt, Wood Duck.

Additional information available at http://www.widomaker.com/~lvosteen

Lou Vosteen


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:45:13 PST
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:48:43 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
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playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Experienced Dancer Alert
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Mary E Jones wrote:

> ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT
>
> East Coast Experienced English Country Dancers Converge On Amherst,
> Mass.
>
> Sunday, March 19th from 2 - 5 p.m.  Munson Library, South Amherst, Mass.
>
> Scott Higgs calling with Margaret Ann Martin, piano, Earl Gaddis,
> violin, and Lise Brown, flute.
>
> This dance is for all who are thoroughly familiar with ECD figures...a
> ball without the get-up or the memorizing.
>
> ADDED TREAT!!!!!
>
> Scott Higgs will be calling an English Country Dance For All
> on Saturday night, March 18th from 8 - 11 p.m. at Munson Library in
> South Amherst, with music by Pleasures of the Town.
>
> Make a weekend of it - We will!
>
> For more information, email me directly or call 413-549-8159.
>
> Mary Jones
> Amherst, MA

Sounds great Mary. May be calling you for hospitality. I love Scott Higgs
and I am having surgery (full replacement) on my left knee on the 22nd so
this may give me a chance for a last fling before "confinement" (oh-I know
the word has more specific meaning but!). We will see if the knee can stand
up to that by then!

Ben Stein (go ahead-take my money!)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:19:12 PST
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Williamsburg Ball
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Lou Vosteen writes:

[snippage of details about the Williamsburg Ball, which sounds splendid;
 I wish I could go.]

  The dances are:

    Allemande Swiss Cotillion, Barbarini's Tambourine, Bare Necessities, Bonny
    Cuckoo, Elverton Grove, Fair & Softly, His Royal Highness the Prince of
    Wales, Harvest Home, In the Bleak Midwinter, Installation, John Tallis's
    Canon, Kelsterne Gardens, Never Love thee More, Kneeland Romp, Trip to
    Kilburn, Wa is Me What Mun I Do? Wakefield Hunt, Wood Duck.

Two things:

(1) I don't place "His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales".  What's that -
    where's it's from?  "Harvest Home" sounds more familiar, although I 
    don't identify it either.

(2) Although the Williamsburg Ball has 100% more cotillions than the majority
    of balls, I'm sad to see that even the Williamsburg folks have only one.  
    Signed, A Frustrated Cotillion Lover.  

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:44:22 PST
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:47:28 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Williamsburg Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <389A8410.75E6280E-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
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Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Lou Vosteen writes:
>
> [snippage of details about the Williamsburg Ball, which sounds splendid;
>  I wish I could go.]
>
>   The dances are:
>
>     Allemande Swiss Cotillion, Barbarini's Tambourine, Bare Necessities, Bonny
>     Cuckoo, Elverton Grove, Fair & Softly, His Royal Highness the Prince of
>     Wales, Harvest Home, In the Bleak Midwinter, Installation, John Tallis's
>     Canon, Kelsterne Gardens, Never Love thee More, Kneeland Romp, Trip to
>     Kilburn, Wa is Me What Mun I Do? Wakefield Hunt, Wood Duck.
>
> Two things:
>
> (1) I don't place "His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales".  What's that -
>     where's it's from?  "Harvest Home" sounds more familiar, although I

HRH Royal Highness the Prince of Wales is from "Not quite Playford" and was
interpreted by Audrey Town. It is an early 19th century dance with a three-part
tune, an uncomplicated one  that always seems to work.

Philippe Callens

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:16:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd] Minnesota Playford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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[Forwarded by request of Lara Friedman~Shedlov ldfs-AT-
bigfoot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        

Come Let's Be Merry
20th Annual Minnesota Playford Ball

Saturday, 4 March 2000

Minnesota Country Dance Coop invites you to an evening of dance in the
style of 17th and 18th century English country dancing. 

Time:   6:30 p.m. -- Hors d'Oeuvres
        7:30 p.m. -- Dancing with Coleraine English Country Dance Band
  
Place:  Olivet Congregational Church, 1850 Iglehart, St. Paul, MN

Tickets: Reservations on a sliding fee scale: $15 - $33.
         Suggested $25

Hospitality is available for out of town guests!

For more information, see

http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~laradf/playford2000.html 

or contact Nancy or Tom Riley, e-mail: sumter7-AT-
aol.com or phone:
612-938-2987

DANCE PROGRAM:

Alterations
Barberini's Tambourine
Bath Carnival
Black and Grey
Chestnut
Childgrove
Come, Let's Be Merry
Greensleeves and Yellow Lace
Hambleton's Round O
Hundston House
Knives and Forks
Mackintosh's Maggot
Mr. Handel's Gigue
New Whitehall
News From Tripoli
Old Noll's Jig
Sellenger's Round
Short and Sweet


(dance notes on the web site listed above).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 14:05:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:06:13 -0500
From: Michael Darby <darby.1-AT-
osu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: "'ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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I second Andy's comments.  When I use the term "give weight"  while 
teaching I like to emphasize the word "give". We "give" weight we don't 
"take" weight.  It is a gift that we are giving to our partner. We are 
supporting our partner; we are not requiring that our partner support us. 
 And it comes from our upper body: the strength in our shoulders and the 
spring in our arms, not from the pull of gravity or centrifugal force on 
the rest of our body.

Michael Darby
.
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:56:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
Message-ID: <20000127025626.2899.qmail-AT-
web3306.mail.yahoo.com>

--- paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:
> 1) "giving weight" (I hate the term, but you all know what I
> mean by it).
>
Vicki,

You make a lot of very good points in this long message, but I
would like to comment specifically on "giving weight". The
concept is completely foreign to someone who has never danced. I
have observed callers telling people to "give weight" and
getting a lot of blank stares because they don't tell people the
mechanics of it. My observation is that it is necessary to make
beginners understand that they are centered and carry their own
weight but that when moving with another person they are also
supporting each other in whatever way is necessary to complete
the move smoothly and on time. That very necessary support of
each other is what is actually happening when "giving weight."
It has nothing to do with leaning and pulling against the other
person, which is how many people interpret it. It is more that
the balanced support you give each other is intended to help you
move as one entity rather than two seperate ones. It is a hard
concept to teach. I also have found that even "experienced"
dancers tend to grip other peoples hands because they have never
quite learned to trust that support without holding on for dear
life. I've often wondered if telling them to "support each
other" wouldn't be more meaningful than "give weight". I enjoy
seeing the light that suddenly comes on when a new dancer
experiences the meaning of it for the first time. You can just
see them thinking, "So that's what they mean."

Andy Peterson
Portland, Oregon
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


******************************

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:24:39 PST
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:24:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: "'ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Michael Darby wrote:

> I second Andy's comments.  When I use the term "give weight"  while 
> teaching I like to emphasize the word "give". We "give" weight we don't 
> "take" weight.  It is a gift that we are giving to our partner. We are 
> supporting our partner; we are not requiring that our partner support us. 
>  And it comes from our upper body: the strength in our shoulders and the 
> spring in our arms, not from the pull of gravity or centrifugal force on 
> the rest of our body.

While the images that people have offered on the subject of "giving
weight" may have certain charms, I think it is important to recognize that
this is an essentially physical problem, and one for which a purely
physical explanation goes a long way toward describing exactly what we
mean.  When we speak metaphorically, those who are not used to thinking in
physical terms may find the images helpful, but those who are used to
thinking physically (and with many engineers and folks with scientific
backgrounds doing ECD, this is not a negligible number) the metaphores can
come across as just as much mumbo-jumbo as a purely physical description
does for someone not in the habit of thinking physically.

In fact, the basic principles of Newtonian mechanics apply here just as
rigorously as they do in celestial mechanics, where they work surprisingly
well.  A person cannot move in a circle without having a net force applied
to him toward the center of the circle, and the magnitude of that force is
proportional to his mass (hence "weight" which is how we commonly
eperience mass) and the square of his velocity divided by the radius of
the circle.  

If he does this by himself, assuming that he has nothing to hang onto,
then all of this force must come from the floor against his feet, which is
the Newtonian "reaction" force opposed to the force of his feet against
the floor.  Since this has to be a sideways force relative to his
direction of motion, he must also lean toward the center of the circle a
bit so that there is a forceon the upper part of his body, too, not just
on his feet, or he would fall over.  By leaning in, he moves his own
center of mass so that it is not over his feet so that gravity provides
the sideways force on the upper part of his body.  He _can_ do all of
this, and it isn't that hard -- but it is somewhat awkward.

If he has a convenient pole in the center of the circle which he can reach
out and grab, then the force on the upper part of his body to keep him
from falling over can be supplied by the pole through his arm, which must
maintain the right amount of tension (another word for force) to keep him
upright or at whatever other angle he wishes to maintain -- as dancers, we
wish to remain at least approximately upright while we are dancing, so
this is very helpful.

However, having posts all over the dance floor wherever people need to do
turns would hardly be a satisfactory solution, because not only would it
limit doing the turns where the posts already were, they would have a very
nasty habit of getting into the way for lots of other moves.  They'd be
limited to doing the Levi Jackson Rag and perhaps a few other dances
designed around poles.

The magic of it comes from the fact that if you replace the pole with
another dancer of the same mass, then they require exactly the same
magnitude of force to follow identical circular paths, but in opposite
directions, so they can hang onto each other with the same tension that
they'd hang onto the pole and go around each other with the same ease that
they could go around the pole, but they don't have a ploe to dodge when
they're finished with that figure.

In practice, of course, dancers come in many different masses (or weights,
which are proportional to their masses), and that's why we have a problem
which we discuss.  There are several ways of dealing with that: one person
can walk a circle of larger radius than the other, or one can lean in or
out a bit to compensate for mass differences by introducing a
gravitational componenet by not having one's mass directly over one's
feet.  

The practical effect is that it is much easier to turn when there is
something in the right direction to pull you in the direction of the
center of the circle, and the whole issue is how to adjust that tension
(pulling force) so that it is most comfortable for both, even when they
are of different weight.  To be able to walk upright, your feet do about
half of it, and your arm or arms do the remaining part, but the resultant
tension is sustained by every part of the body to which the
tension-bearing parts (muscles & tendons) are attached, so the physical
locus of this tension may be quite different from the mental image.

In teaching the concept of "giving weight," please make an effort to speak
to those who may think physically as well as those who prefer a
metaphorical description.  I find both can be useful.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:42:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:47:35 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>>In fact, the basic principles of Newtonian mechanics apply here just as
rigorously as they do in celestial mechanics, where they work surprisingly
well.  A person cannot move in a circle without having a net force applied
to him toward the center of the circle, and the magnitude of that force is
proportional to his mass (hence "weight" which is how we commonly
eperience mass) and the square of his velocity divided by the radius of
the circle. <<

I love the ECD list.

Marian Phillips



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:50:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 20:48:09 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04220800b4c131c48095-AT-
[206.72.193.193]>
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I have only one question for Eric - how MUCH snow is on the ground in 
Ann Arbor??????

Mary Beth
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 05:03:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 08:05:13 +0000
From: Keith Spiro <kspiro-AT-
prodigy.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - portable metaphorical poles
To: ECD-AT-
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> If he has a convenient pole in the center of the circle which he can reach
> out and grab, then the force on the upper part of his body to keep him
> from falling over can be supplied by the pole through his arm, which must
> maintain the right amount of tension (another word for force) to keep him
> upright or at whatever other angle he wishes to maintain -- as dancers, we
> wish to remain at least approximately upright while we are dancing, so
> this is very helpful.

Thank you Eric!   I had always wondered just how it was that I learned to
Waltz. -
(and I'm sure that's a challenge for teachers)

Your explanation of Newtonian mechanics was like a lightning rod of
revelation for me.

I was taught to think of "placing a pole" between me and my partner and hold
on and waltz as though I was "spinning on a carrousel" - ok - so the
gentleman who taught me was a social worker - it worked just fine for me.
And so, when I waltz with beginners - I always use my "portable,
metaphorical merry-go-round & pole" - and both dancers have a lovely time
and nobody else gets hurt!

Keith Spiro
A feet on the physical terra firma, head in the metaphorical clouds, dancer
from NH where there is both a lot of snow and much hot air that has just
left our state
>


> However, having posts all over the dance floor wherever people need to do
> turns would hardly be a satisfactory solution,

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:18:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:09:26 +0100
From: Roswitha Betsche <r.betsche-AT-
planet-interkom.de>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: ECD courses in the Netherlands
To: ECD mailing list <ECD-AT-
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Hallo, all,

would anyone know about ECD courses in the Netherlands in August? A
friend of mine will be travelling in the Netherlands during that period
and would like to attend such a course. (She is also interested in Dutch
language courses, but thatīs a different matter.)
Thanks in advance.
Rosi

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<DIV>Hallo, all,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>would anyone know about ECD courses in the Netherlands&nbsp;in August? A 
friend of mine will be travelling in the Netherlands during that period and 
would like to attend such a course. (She is also interested in Dutch language 
courses, but thatīs a different matter.)</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks in advance.</DIV>
<DIV>Rosi</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:51:58 PST
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 11:51:06 -0500
From: Ruth Feldberg <madrobin-AT-
javanet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Experienced Dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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javanet.com>
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    Dear Mary,

    I am e mailing James the treasurer's report or taking it
    to the dance Mon night. But here's a question for you
    and being treasurer I should know, but don't. My records
    show that we have an ending balance of $63.35. Where's
    the money held?

    I am planning a birthday celebration for Margaret Ann,
    Helen Ann (a childhood camp friend of M. A.'s who also
    goes to Early Music week at Pinewoods) and me after the
    March 18th dance at my house and I hope you'll be able
    to come. I will probably send out an invitation. I don't
    think I can handle inviting all the people attending the
    Sat. night dance.

    Should we have a meeting soon? When does Mary Conser
    get back.

    Cheers,

    Ruth


Mary E Jones wrote:

> ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT
>
> East Coast Experienced English Country Dancers Converge On Amherst,
> Mass.
>
> Sunday, March 19th from 2 - 5 p.m.  Munson Library, South Amherst, Mass.
>
> Scott Higgs calling with Margaret Ann Martin, piano, Earl Gaddis,
> violin, and Lise Brown, flute.
>
> This dance is for all who are thoroughly familiar with ECD figures...a
> ball without the get-up or the memorizing.
>
> ADDED TREAT!!!!!
>
> Scott Higgs will be calling an English Country Dance For All
> on Saturday night, March 18th from 8 - 11 p.m. at Munson Library in
> South Amherst, with music by Pleasures of the Town.
>
> Make a weekend of it - We will!
>
> For more information, email me directly or call 413-549-8159.
>
> Mary Jones
> Amherst, MA

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear Mary,</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am e mailing
James the treasurer's report or taking it</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the dance
Mon night. But here's a question for you</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and being
treasurer I should know, but don't. My records</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; show that
we have an ending balance of $63.35. Where's</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the money
held?</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am planning
a birthday celebration for Margaret Ann,</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Helen Ann
(a childhood camp friend of M. A.'s who also</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; goes to Early
Music week at Pinewoods) and me after the</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; March 18th
dance at my house and I hope you'll be able</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to come.
I will probably send out an invitation. I don't</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; think I can
handle inviting all the people attending the</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sat. night
dance.</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Should we
have a meeting soon? When does Mary Conser</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; get back.</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers,</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ruth</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></font></b>
<br>Mary E Jones wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>ALERT&nbsp; *&nbsp; ALERT&nbsp; *&nbsp; ALERT&nbsp;
*&nbsp; ALERT
<p>East Coast Experienced English Country Dancers Converge On Amherst,
<br>Mass.
<p>Sunday, March 19th from 2 - 5 p.m.&nbsp; Munson Library, South Amherst,
Mass.
<p>Scott Higgs calling with Margaret Ann Martin, piano, Earl Gaddis,
<br>violin, and Lise Brown, flute.
<p>This dance is for all who are thoroughly familiar with ECD figures...a
<br>ball without the get-up or the memorizing.
<p>ADDED TREAT!!!!!
<p>Scott Higgs will be calling an English Country Dance For All
<br>on Saturday night, March 18th from 8 - 11 p.m. at Munson Library in
<br>South Amherst, with music by Pleasures of the Town.
<p>Make a weekend of it - We will!
<p>For more information, email me directly or call 413-549-8159.
<p>Mary Jones
<br>Amherst, MA</blockquote>
</html>

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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 12:10:35 -0500
From: Ruth Feldberg <madrobin-AT-
javanet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Experienced Dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <389DAB04.48246D6-AT-
javanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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javanet.com>


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        Dear All,

     O.K. so I made a mistake. The cat did it; she stepped on the
     keyboard and sent the msg to the wrong address. Before
     rumors begin about where the money is being held and how
     many people are coming to the birthday party, EVERYONE
     IS INVITED and we'll spend ALL the money.


     Embarrassingly yours,

     Ruth Feldberg

Ruth Feldberg wrote:

>
>     Dear Mary,
>
>     I am e mailing James the treasurer's report or taking it
>     to the dance Mon night. But here's a question for you
>     and being treasurer I should know, but don't. My records
>     show that we have an ending balance of $63.35. Where's
>     the money held?
>
>     I am planning a birthday celebration for Margaret Ann,
>     Helen Ann (a childhood camp friend of M. A.'s who also
>     goes to Early Music week at Pinewoods) and me after the
>     March 18th dance at my house and I hope you'll be able
>     to come. I will probably send out an invitation. I don't
>     think I can handle inviting all the people attending the
>     Sat. night dance.
>
>     Should we have a meeting soon? When does Mary Conser
>     get back.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Ruth
>
>
> Mary E Jones wrote:
>
>> ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT  *  ALERT
>>
>> East Coast Experienced English Country Dancers Converge On Amherst,
>> Mass.
>>
>> Sunday, March 19th from 2 - 5 p.m.  Munson Library, South Amherst,
>> Mass.
>>
>> Scott Higgs calling with Margaret Ann Martin, piano, Earl Gaddis,
>> violin, and Lise Brown, flute.
>>
>> This dance is for all who are thoroughly familiar with ECD
>> figures...a
>> ball without the get-up or the memorizing.
>>
>> ADDED TREAT!!!!!
>>
>> Scott Higgs will be calling an English Country Dance For All
>> on Saturday night, March 18th from 8 - 11 p.m. at Munson Library in
>> South Amherst, with music by Pleasures of the Town.
>>
>> Make a weekend of it - We will!
>>
>> For more information, email me directly or call 413-549-8159.
>>
>> Mary Jones
>> Amherst, MA
>

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>
Dear All,</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; O.K.
so I made a mistake. The cat did it; she stepped on the</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; keyboard
and sent the msg to the wrong address. Before</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rumors
begin about where the money is being held and how</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; many
people are coming to the birthday party, EVERYONE</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IS
INVITED and we'll spend ALL the money.</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Embarrassingly
yours,</font></font></b><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1></font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ruth
Feldberg</font></font></b>
<p>Ruth Feldberg wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear Mary,</font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am e mailing
James the treasurer's report or taking it</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the dance
Mon night. But here's a question for you</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and being
treasurer I should know, but don't. My records</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; show that
we have an ending balance of $63.35. Where's</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the money
held?</font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am planning
a birthday celebration for Margaret Ann,</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Helen Ann
(a childhood camp friend of M. A.'s who also</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; goes to Early
Music week at Pinewoods) and me after the</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; March 18th
dance at my house and I hope you'll be able</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to come.
I will probably send out an invitation. I don't</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; think I can
handle inviting all the people attending the</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sat. night
dance.</font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Should we
have a meeting soon? When does Mary Conser</font></font></b>
<br><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; get back.</font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers,</font></font></b>
<p><b><font color="#6C18B0"><font size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ruth</font></font></b>
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Mary E Jones wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>ALERT&nbsp; *&nbsp; ALERT&nbsp; *&nbsp; ALERT&nbsp;
*&nbsp; ALERT
<p>East Coast Experienced English Country Dancers Converge On Amherst,
<br>Mass.
<p>Sunday, March 19th from 2 - 5 p.m.&nbsp; Munson Library, South Amherst,
Mass.
<p>Scott Higgs calling with Margaret Ann Martin, piano, Earl Gaddis,
<br>violin, and Lise Brown, flute.
<p>This dance is for all who are thoroughly familiar with ECD figures...a
<br>ball without the get-up or the memorizing.
<p>ADDED TREAT!!!!!
<p>Scott Higgs will be calling an English Country Dance For All
<br>on Saturday night, March 18th from 8 - 11 p.m. at Munson Library in
<br>South Amherst, with music by Pleasures of the Town.
<p>Make a weekend of it - We will!
<p>For more information, email me directly or call 413-549-8159.
<p>Mary Jones
<br>Amherst, MA</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</html>

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Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:50:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:49:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10002061849070.16258-100000-AT-
galaxian.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Mary Beth Goodman wrote:

> I have only one question for Eric - how MUCH snow is on the ground in 
> Ann Arbor??????

Approximately one light-nanosecond...

Eric

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:27:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 19:27:08 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04220801b4c3c1aac72c-AT-
[206.72.193.188]>
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>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Mary Beth Goodman wrote:
>
>  > I have only one question for Eric - how MUCH snow is on the ground in
>  > Ann Arbor??????
>
>Approximately one light-nanosecond...
>
>Eric


Good to know it's not over your knees yet!  Ron says to tell you he 
did the dimensional analysis in his head.  He's a bit smug about it, 
but oh well.

Cheers!

Mary Beth

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:15:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:15:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Teaching Beginners - Thoughts & Resources?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10002062111590.1868-100000-AT-
breakout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Mary Beth Goodman wrote:

> >On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Mary Beth Goodman wrote:
> >
> >  > I have only one question for Eric - how MUCH snow is on the ground in
> >  > Ann Arbor??????
> >
> >Approximately one light-nanosecond...
> >
> >Eric
> 
> 
> Good to know it's not over your knees yet!

We usually shovel it off before we start dancing, anyway, so it doesn't
change the physics too much -- unless we forget the salt after we shovel.
That sometimes reduces the force we can apply through our feet...

Cheers to you & Ron!

Eric

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:50:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:48:02 -0500 (EST)
From: RLHAYDEN-AT-
amherst.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Cupid's Cotillion in Putney, VT
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <01JLM9XXTUFOAXCUWD-AT-
amherst.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Friends, 

Susan Kevra asked me to post this message:

Announcing an English Country Dance party, "Cupid's Cotillion" to take
place Saturday February 12, 2000 8 PM to midnight at the beautiful, newly
renovated Putney Community Center, Christian Square, Putney, Vermont. No
partners are necessary!

Music by Mary Lea - fiddle and viola; Karen Axelrod - piano; Bill Tomczak -
clarinet and saxophone.

All dances taught by Fred Breunig and Susan Kevra

Scrumptious desserts by Susan Leuchter

Admission $9

Festive dress encouraged. No partner necessary.

For further information, contact our website:
http://www.marlboro.edu/~skevra/cupids_cotillion.htm
or e-mail me (skevra-AT-
marlboro.edu).

This event is brought to you in part by the Brattleboro Dawn Dance
Committee.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 05:12:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:11:45 -0500
From: John Patcai <john.patcai-AT-
utoronto.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Giving weight
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <007a01bf716d$0d54d2e0$0e81968e-AT-
john>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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The concept of giving weight is indeed difficult for beginners to grasp, and partly that is the physics of the movement - it is not something that they are used to doing. Hence they may initially not understand well how to do it.  A description of the physics involved may be very useful.

However, the enjoyment of the procedure goes beyond the kinetics and kinematics of the situation. The human (at least the country dancer) is programmed to find the particular accelerations involved in giving weight a very pleasurable sensation. We should keep this in mind in teaching - giving weight is fun, and exciting, when successful.

I believe that one of the best things that one can share in this life is a centre of mass. This certainly has many applications in dancing, including giving weight in English dancing (never mind all the possibilities outside the dance - this is a dance discussion list).


John Patcai

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<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The concept of giving weight is indeed difficult for 
beginners to grasp, and partly that is the physics of the movement - it is not 
something that they are used to doing. Hence they may initially not understand 
well how to do it.&nbsp; A description of the physics involved may be very 
useful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>However, the enjoyment of the procedure goes beyond the 
kinetics and kinematics of the situation. </FONT><FONT face=Arial>The human (at 
least the country dancer) is programmed to find the particular accelerations 
involved in giving weight a very pleasurable sensation. We should keep this in 
mind in teaching - giving weight is fun, and exciting, when 
successful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I believe that one of the best things that one can share 
in this life is a centre of mass. This certainly has many applications in 
dancing, including giving weight in English dancing (never mind all the 
possibilities outside the dance - this is a dance discussion list).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>John Patcai</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Archive-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 05:37:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:37:21 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Giving weight
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <389ECA91.2542A7D1-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <007a01bf716d$0d54d2e0$0e81968e-AT-
john>

John Patcai wrote:
>>  However, the enjoyment of the procedure goes beyond the kinetics and
>>  kinematics of the situation. The human (at least the country dancer) is
>>  programmed to find the particular accelerations involved in giving
>>  weight a very pleasurable sensation. We should keep this in mind in
>>  teaching - giving weight is fun, and exciting, when successful.

Surely the reason for giving weight is not much to do with physics (I can't
be bothered to work out the centrifugal force involved in, say, the right
hand turn in eight steps at the start of Fandango, but it isn't much);
surely the reason is that this is "Social" dance and much of the pleasure
comes from dancing *with* other people.  The joint activity of "giving weight"
is part of dancing with someone.
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:40:53 -0500
From: gaff-AT-
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Subject: Romance is bursting out all over!
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Nikki Winters <nwinters-AT-
lynx.dac.neu.edu>, Katie Cram <ccwtst-AT-
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coe.neu.edu>, "brad m. bouchard" <bradleyb-AT-
coe.neu.edu>, Jeremy Giordano <giordano-AT-
coe.neu.edu>, Bryan Mruk <captain12step-AT-
hotmail.com>, Brian Roberts <broberts04-AT-
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coe.neu.edu>, Dan Cohen <dancohen-AT-
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Dear Friends,
 For those of you within driving distance of Boston, there will be a
Valentine's party format dance on Wednesday feb 16 at the Park Avenue
Church in Arlington Mass. The evening will feature romantic dances led by
Boston Center leaders, music by "Bare Necessities".

Since Valentine's day is approaching, I'd like to hear from list members
about their favorite romantic dances. My favorite is "Saint Margaret's
Hill".  The music and the leads though the top and bottom of the set always
make me feel closely linked to partner. She as lady and I as protector.

best,
 terry


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Terence Gaffney writes:

>>Since Valentine's day is approaching<<

-- And don't forget Lupercalia, also known as Faunalia, which falls on
February 15.  It's yet another fertility festival in the February cluster,
this one in honor of the woodland god Faunus, who was the Roman version of
Pan.  Dancers who want to honor this fine god might consider showing up in
goat horns to dances that fall in that week -- or, alternatively, dressed as
nymphs.  I hear that nymphs are always welcome at faun parties.

Marian Phillips

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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:11:32 -0005
From: Arthur Munisteri <Munisteri-AT-
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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On 7 Feb 00, at 8:58 Heyer wrote:

> Terence Gaffney writes:
> 
> >>Since Valentine's day is approaching<<
> 
> -- And don't forget Lupercalia, also known as Faunalia, which falls on
> February 15.

Or perhaps the 13th. Nickolas and Alex Humez (the latter a 
devoted ECDancer), in their delightful *ABC Etc.* say that the 
Lupercalia falls on Feb. 15, but they also say (same book, different 
place) that it falls on the Ides of February. But according to my old 
high school Latin textbook, the Ides of Feb. is the 13th. The Ides of 
March is the 15th and so are the Ides of May, July & October, but 
in all other months it falls on the 13th. So if anyone sees Alex, 
would you ask him if he knows for sure?

<snippity-snip>
 I hear that nymphs are always  welcome at faun parties.

High school Latin didn't go into such subjects back when I was a 
lad, but I've heard the same thing.

Cheers, Art

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Art Munisteri sez:
>>Or perhaps the 13th. <<

And, just to add to the confusion, I have one source that says it's on
*March* 15, and another that swears it's on December 5.  However, three that
I checked said February 15, and in some matters I'm a fan of reality by
consensus, which is why I didn't wait for the year 2001 to celebrate the
turn of the millennium.  And if we celebrate it on the 15th instead of the
13th, it provides something to look forward to for all the people who are
depressed by Valentine's Day.  "At least I get to wear goat horns tomorrow,"
they'll say to themselves, and maybe refrain from snarling at all the lovers
rushing around with bouquets of roses.

Marian

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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
To: ECD-AT-
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First, what Marian said:

  And if we celebrate it on the 15th instead of the 13th, it provides
  something to look forward to for all the people who are depressed by
  Valentine's Day.  "At least I get to wear goat horns tomorrow,"
  they'll say to themselves, and maybe refrain from snarling at all the
  lovers rushing around with bouquets of roses.

This is the most charming thing I've seen in a long time.  And I shall
try it myself.  "At least I get to wear goat horns tomorrow" may be a 
useful mantra at other times of the year as well.

I was trying to think of a dance that referred to goats just the other 
day, and I failed, but this gives me the chance to ask here.  Does the 
collective ECD intelligence know of any dance that refers to goats? 
(I was thinking of Shub-Niggurath, the goat with a million young, but 
I'll take any goats.  Note that the Darby Ram is a sheep, not a goat;
it's historically been important to separate those.)

On another topic in this same thread, the question of romantic dances
came up.  I'm obliged to report that the Bay Area English Regency
Society, a group of which I am part, puts on a Cyprians' Ball every
year around Valentine's Day.

(Aphrodite, goddess of love, was associated with the Isle of Cyprus,
and so she was known as the Cyprian.  In Georgian England, ladies who
made their livings by love were known as Cyprians.  [Courtesans, more
or less.])  It seems that the Cyprians had the charming custom of
holding balls where they could shop around for new protectors.  Their
behavior might or not be demure.  (This was the era when Harriette
Wilson reportedly had herself placed unclad in a (very large) piecrust
and served at a formal dinner.)  See the BAERS webpage, 
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse and follow the link to the
Cyprians' for more information.

So we have the ball, set in about 1810, which gives us scope to have
waltzes, waltzes with figures, and flirtatious and rambunctious
country dancing.  I can't do any dances that are very complex, since
we get a number of people who dance perhaps three or four times a
year.  I'll mention below dances I wish I could do there.

Here's this year's program:
---------------------------------------
Program for Cyprians' 2000

First Set
---------
Congress of Vienna #1
Mad Robin
An Easy Competence
Knole Park
Free Waltz
Abbesses

Second Set
----------
Grand March
My Lord Byron's Maggot
Free Waltz
*The Black Nag
Drapers' Gardens

Third Set
---------
Free Waltz 
*Lass of Richmond Hill
*Free Waltz (or Temptation if we're doing unbelievably well)
Sir Roger de Coverley (time permitting)
The Duke of Kent's Waltz 
Congress of Vienna #2

=====
* means "first against the wall when the revolution comes"; that is, first
  candidate for cutting if we're running long.
----------------------------------------------------

Congress of Vienna is a very popular sequence waltz (with some
familiar laendler figures); An Easy Competence is another (to Haydn, I
think, but James Langdell can clarify that).  Temptation is yet
another, and quite nice but difficult.  Abbesses is a three couple
waltz country dance of my own devising, for which James has found some
very agreeable "French Waltz" tunes in Mr. Wilson's book.  I should
mention that this is the 12th year of this ball.  The program varies 
slightly from year to year, but only slightly.

I wish I could do "Miss de Jersey's Memorial", "Love's Triumph", "Bare
Necessities" (not too hard, but not even remotely period-like), "The
Pursuit" (heys are questionable), "St. Margaret's Hill" (changes in
spatial orientation confuse the uninitiated), "Sally in Our Alley", 
"Wa is Me, Wa Mun I Do",  and others.  In the past, we've done "Well
Hall", "Shrewsbury Lasses", "Miss Barrett's Waltz" (but it's a
long-running triple minor and not really wonderful enough to justify
the time.)

So there are a bunch of romantic or flirtatious or playful country
dances.  Hope this helps!  And any ECD readers who'll be in the Bay
Area this Saturday are invited to come to the Cyprians Ball at
Arlington Community Church, 52 Arlington Avenue, Kensington; doors
open at 7:30 - congress begins at 8:00.  Scandalous period dress
admired but not required; as we usually say, we can't in good
conscience recommend damping your muslins in February.  See the web
page above for details.  We give a discount to BACDS and CDSS members.

Somewhat punchily,

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
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 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:06:23 -0800
From: John Carver <jcarver-AT-
islandnet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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Alan asked:
>Does the 
>collective ECD intelligence know of any dance that refers to goats? 

Capriole.

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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:49:57 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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Alan writes:
>>(I was thinking of Shub-Niggurath, the goat with a million young, <<

Of course you were.  And now that I've read that sentence to the spousal
unit, he'd demanding to know which story Shub-Niggurath shows up in.  Could
you post a title?  He's being very persistent about it, and the only thing I
can remember from reading Lovecraft is that the people of Innsmouth looked
like fish.

The goat dance question is quite the poser.  I was reduced to looking the
word up in various foreign language dictionaries, hoping to at least scare
up a bi-lingual pun, but even that didn't produce anything.  John Carver is
right, anything with any form of the word "caper" would be relevant, but
does ECD even have capers?  I thought they were just a morris thing.

Up Too Late,

Marian

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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:55:46 -0500
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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Cadger's Caper by Gary Roodman [Sum Further Calculated Figures]
Capers at Zeist by John Lagden [Dutch Crossing]
Country Capers [Country Capers from Norfolk]
Cotswold Capers [Dances for Gloucestershire]
Capers at Canterbury [Kentish Hops]
Capers in the Snow [English Country Dances Ellen Taylor]
and, in honor of the 3 Billy Goats Gruff, Clopton Bridge...

Cheers,
Sharon


At 12:49 AM 2/8/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Alan writes:
>>>(I was thinking of Shub-Niggurath, the goat with a million young, <<
>
>Of course you were.  And now that I've read that sentence to the spousal
>unit, he'd demanding to know which story Shub-Niggurath shows up in.  Could
>you post a title?  He's being very persistent about it, and the only thing I
>can remember from reading Lovecraft is that the people of Innsmouth looked
>like fish.
>
>The goat dance question is quite the poser.  I was reduced to looking the
>word up in various foreign language dictionaries, hoping to at least scare
>up a bi-lingual pun, but even that didn't produce anything.  John Carver is
>right, anything with any form of the word "caper" would be relevant, but
>does ECD even have capers?  I thought they were just a morris thing.
>
>Up Too Late,
>
>Marian
>

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On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central
Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> writes:

>... Does the collective ECD intelligence know of any dance that refers
to goats? [snip]

I don't know of a dance reference, but 'Paddy McGinty's Goat' is
recommended as an alternate tune for Nottingham Swing (in Community
Dances Manual 6).

William DeRagon
Albuquerque, NM

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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:33:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
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Regarding the location of the Ides of February: Brittanica Online gives
this regarding the Ides:

[begin quote]
The Julian calendar retained the Roman republican
calendar method of numbering the days of the
month. Compared with the present system, the
Roman numbering seems to run backward, for the
first day of the month was known as the Kalendae,
but subsequent days were not enumerated as so
many after the Kalendae but as so many before the
following Nonae ("nones"), the day called nonae
being the ninth day before the Ides (from iduare,
meaning "to divide"), which occurred in the middle
of the month and were supposed to coincide with
the Full Moon. Days after the Nonae and before the
Ides were numbered as so many before the Ides,
and those after the Ides as so many before the
Kalendae of the next month. [end quote]

From
"calendar" Encyclopaedia Britannica Online. 
<http://www.eb.com:180/bol/topic?eu=108734&sctn=2> 

This came from the subheading "Julian Calendar" which changed from the
Roman lunar calendar, presumably with all months having 28 or 29 days, to
a solar calendar with a year of 365.25 days, and months mostly had 29 or
31 days; February apparently had 29 or 30 then.  This was apparently used
from 46 BC to 8 BC when Augustus had the month of Sextilis named after
him; it then had one day less than the preceeding month of July (named
after Julius) so it was increased to 31 and the extra day taken from
February to give it 28 or 29 days as we have now.

The Romans apparently used the names of the consuls to identify the years,
and when they took office in March (the date of taking office apparently
was fixed in 222 BC to be March 15), the new year started then, so
February was the last month of the old year, which is why it got to have
the role of adjusting the year length.  In 153 BC the beginning of the
term of office was moved to January 1, and the new year moved with it, but
February retained its role as the month to absorb the adjustments to the
calendar, it seems.

So it seems that the ides of February shouldn't come before the 14th, and
might be on the 15th when it has 29 days, since the middle of the month
falls then -- but the full moon isn't until the 19th, so perhaps one
should wait till then...

Or perhaps that extends the range for the goat-dances.  Get out the Pan
pipes!

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:42:02 -0330
From: "Martin E. Mulligan" <mulligan-AT-
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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>>... Does the collective ECD intelligence know of any dance that refers
>to goats? [snip]

There is a tradtional Newfoundland Dance called "Running the
Goat".  It is not exactly ECD though I'm sure there are
antecedents in common.  It's danced in a square formation, is fast
and furious and when done comepletely lasts 15 mins or so.

Martin
=========================================================================
Martin E. Mulligan
St. John's (Newfoundland)
mulligan-AT-
morgan.ucs.mun.ca
=========================================================================Ԙ
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Martin E. Mulligan wrote:

> >>... Does the collective ECD intelligence know of any dance that refers
> >to goats? [snip]
> 
> There is a tradtional Newfoundland Dance called "Running the
> Goat".  It is not exactly ECD though I'm sure there are
> antecedents in common.  It's danced in a square formation, is fast
> and furious and when done comepletely lasts 15 mins or so.

Can you post a description and suggestions for the music?  It sounds
rather intriguing!  

Are there other traditional dances of Newfoundland which remain in local
use, and are there any publications which describe them?

Eric Arnold
 Honourary Newfie since 1989...

> 
> Martin
> =========================================================================
> Martin E. Mulligan
> St. John's (Newfoundland)
> mulligan-AT-
morgan.ucs.mun.ca
> =========================================================================Ԙ
> 

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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:33:53 -0500
From: Lucy Whitehouse <lucyw-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Pat Shaw's  "Holland as seen in the ECD"
To: ECD-AT-
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According to Nicholas B. of Lanark Scotland, 'Pat Shaw's introduction to
"Holland as seen etc." is a goldmine of information on the interpretation of
C17th - 19th century dances.'  Do you know where this book can be obtained?
I have been a Scottish Country Dance Teacher for many years, but am now
turning to English because it is less physically demanding.

                              Fiona, Sidney, B.C. (where the winter is also
gentle and mild, and we are not necessarily, but maybe, being lulled into a
false sense of "spring around the corner"!
-----Original Message-----
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com <SallenNic-AT-
aol.com>
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Date: January 27, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Pairs of Dances


Siege of Limerick and Moderation are two different tunes with the same
choreography, as are Fair Quaker of Deal and Amsbury, Well Hall and Belgia
Retriev'd, Come let's be Merry and Hackney Minuet/Belvedera.
I couldn't find Trip to the jubilee or Edinborough Castle in Neal, but the
versions I know of these two are two different dances to the same tune,
which
is the other side of the coin, I suppose.
Quick right and left:
    Is this not Thomas Wilson's "right and left", in which the first corners
to cross pass left shoulders and turn to their left and the second pair pass
right and turn to their right, all then crossing back the same way? This is
achieved in 4 bars, and, as with all Wilson's terminology, is very clearly
described by him and also shewn in diagrammatic form. For further thoughts
on
this, a prime source is Pat Shaw's "Holland as seen in the English Country
Dance", where his Introduction is a goldmine of information on the
interpretation of C17th - C19th Country Dances.
                        Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland (where the winter is
gentle and mild and we are all being lulled into what must surely prove to
be
a thoroughly false sense of "spring around the corner"!)


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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:46:15 -0330
From: "Martin E. Mulligan" <mulligan-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
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>Can you post a description and suggestions for the music?  It sounds
>rather intriguing!
>
>Are there other traditional dances of Newfoundland which remain in local
>use, and are there any publications which describe them?

Best I can do, Eri,c for now is point you to
http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~andrew/goat.txt which details the
directions for Running the Goat.  The dance can and probably is
varied by including figures or not as the case may be.  It has
it's own tune which I think goes by the same name but I would have
to double check that.  I don't know of a source for the music.

There has been a revival of some old Newfoundland Dances over the
past ten years.  I've not participated at all recently so my
knowledge is scanty.

Two Newfoundland dances were collected by Maud Karpeles and were published in:
 	Twelve traditional country dances / collected and described by Maud
	Karpeles ; pianoforte arrangements by R. Vaughan Williams, in
	collaboration with Maud Karpeles. -- London : Novello and Co. for
	The English Folk Dance Society, 1956.

The only book that I know which discusses Folk Dance in Newfoundland is:

	Close to the floor : folk dance in Newfoundland
	Quigley, Colin Harding, 1951-
	St. John's, Nfld. : Memorial University of Nfld., 1985.
	(Memorial University of Newfoundland folklore and
	language publications.  Monograph series ; no. 3)


Martin

=========================================================================
Martin E. Mulligan
St. John's (Newfoundland)
mulligan-AT-
morgan.ucs.mun.ca
=========================================================================Ô-
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:14:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:11:42 -0800
From: giovanni de amici <g.deamici-AT-
trw.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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trw.com>
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Actually Eric is wrong: the Ides of February fell on the 13th day of the
month from long before Julius Caesar till long after Caesar Augustus. 
Beside what I remember from latin classes taken way back in junior high
school, this is quote from
"http://ghs1.greenheart.com/billh/calends.html" :

   ... Ides, dedicated to Jupiter, was originally the time of the full
   moon. Because a full moon comes halfway thru each lunation, its
   day was called Idus in Latin from an Etruscan word meaning
   "divide." ...... 
   Romans separated their months from the lunar cycle in the
   fifth century B.C. Month lengths then became fixed. At that
   time, Ides was assigned as the 15th day in all months given 31
   days in length—March, May, July and October. It was
   designated as the 13th day in all other months. As a result,
   from then on the Calends section had from 16 to 19 days, the
   Nones section had either four or six days and the Ides section,
   as before, always had eight days. ..... 

and it is confirmed (if needed) by the Merriam-Webster on-line
dictionary "http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary":

"Main Entry: ides
Pronunciation: 'Idz
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin idus
Date: 14th century
: the 15th day of March, May, July, or October or the 13th day of any
other month in the ancient Roman calendar; broadly : this day and the
seven
days preceding it"


Happy dancing (327 days left in this millenium, and counting)
Giovanni De Amici


Eric Arnold wrote:
.....
> So it seems that the ides of February shouldn't come before the 14th, and
> might be on the 15th when it has 29 days, since the middle of the month
> falls then -- but the full moon isn't until the 19th, so perhaps one
> should wait till then...
....
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:00:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, giovanni de amici wrote:

> Actually Eric is wrong: the Ides of February fell on the 13th day of the
> month from long before Julius Caesar till long after Caesar Augustus. 

Thanks for the correction, Giovanni; I had only the information from the
EB link to base my supposition on, and they weren't clear about the Romans
having abandoned the lunar calendar at that point.  

But one might still consider that the reason to celebrate in this fashion
might as reasonably be related to the full moon as to a date on a calendar
which has neither the moon nor the Julian system as its basis.

Thanks for the other calendar references, too!

Eric

> Beside what I remember from latin classes taken way back in junior high
> school, this is quote from
> "http://ghs1.greenheart.com/billh/calends.html" :
> 
>    ... Ides, dedicated to Jupiter, was originally the time of the full
>    moon. Because a full moon comes halfway thru each lunation, its
>    day was called Idus in Latin from an Etruscan word meaning
>    "divide." ...... 
>    Romans separated their months from the lunar cycle in the
>    fifth century B.C. Month lengths then became fixed. At that
>    time, Ides was assigned as the 15th day in all months given 31
>    days in length—March, May, July and October. It was
>    designated as the 13th day in all other months. As a result,
>    from then on the Calends section had from 16 to 19 days, the
>    Nones section had either four or six days and the Ides section,
>    as before, always had eight days. ..... 
> 
> and it is confirmed (if needed) by the Merriam-Webster on-line
> dictionary "http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary":
> 
> "Main Entry: ides
> Pronunciation: 'Idz
> Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
> Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin idus
> Date: 14th century
> : the 15th day of March, May, July, or October or the 13th day of any
> other month in the ancient Roman calendar; broadly : this day and the
> seven
> days preceding it"
> 
> 
> Happy dancing (327 days left in this millenium, and counting)
> Giovanni De Amici
> 
> 
> Eric Arnold wrote:
> .....
> > So it seems that the ides of February shouldn't come before the 14th, and
> > might be on the 15th when it has 29 days, since the middle of the month
> > falls then -- but the full moon isn't until the 19th, so perhaps one
> > should wait till then...
> ....
> 


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:01:13 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Romance etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 8/2/2000 3:00:33 pm, system-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU 
writes:

>I was trying to think of a dance that referred to goats just the other
>
>day, and I failed
What about 'Scotch Billy'?
                    Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland.
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:22:52 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Eric Arnold writes:
>>But one might still consider that the reason to celebrate in this fashion
might as reasonably be related to the full moon as to a date on a calendar
which has neither the moon nor the Julian system as its basis.<<

But I have to ask myself, WWFD?  What Would Faunus Do?  And, as happens so
often when people ask a deity for advice, Faunus came back with the answer
that I wanted.  He said:  "I'll take what I can get at this point.  Just
pick a date."

Marian

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:58:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:51:41 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-
iae.nl>
Subject: RE: Pat Shaw's  "Holland as seen in the ECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20000208205747.5CAC67CEC-AT-
iaehv.iae.nl>
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Fiona, Sidney, B.C. wrote

> According to Nicholas B. of Lanark Scotland, 'Pat Shaw's
> introduction to
> "Holland as seen etc." is a goldmine of information on the
> interpretation of
> C17th - 19th century dances.'  Do you know where this book
> can be obtained?

Yes, it is published by the Volksdansvereniging NVS (Dutch Folk Dance
Society) and it can be ordered from them. It costs five and a half guilders
which must be something like two and a half dollars. You'll need to add
postage.

Find it on the shop page of the website: http://www.nvs-dance.nl

Antony Heywood
Volksdansvereniging NVS


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:56:10 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Pat Shaw's  "Holland as seen in the ECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Antony Heywood wrote:

> Fiona, Sidney, B.C. wrote
>
> > According to Nicholas B. of Lanark Scotland, 'Pat Shaw's
> > introduction to
> > "Holland as seen etc." is a goldmine of information on the
> > interpretation of
> > C17th - 19th century dances.'  Do you know where this book
> > can be obtained?
>
> Yes, it is published by the Volksdansvereniging NVS (Dutch Folk Dance
> Society) and it can be ordered from them. It costs five and a half guilders
> which must be something like two and a half dollars. You'll need to add
> postage.
>
> Find it on the shop page of the website: http://www.nvs-dance.nl
>
> Antony Heywood
> Volksdansvereniging NVS

It is also available through the Country Dance and Song Society in
Massachusetts. If you don't have their catalogue or E-mail address either use a
search engine to get it or write to me directly and I will be happy to supply
it.

Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:53:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:53:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pat Shaw's  "Holland as seen in the ECD"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JLO0WWOMCY8YIRC0-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Antony wrote:

  Yes, it is published by the Volksdansvereniging NVS (Dutch Folk Dance
  Society) and it can be ordered from them. It costs five and a half guilders
  which must be something like two and a half dollars. You'll need to add
  postage.

  Find it on the shop page of the website: http://www.nvs-dance.nl


It can also be ordered from the Country Dance & Song Society.  See their
indispensable sales webpage at http://www.cdss.org/sales

("Holland As Seen in the English Country Dance" is $5.25 at CDSS.)  Since
the original poster is in Canada, there'll be moneychanging questions in 
either case, and I don't know what the shipping costs will be.  It seems
as though it would be cheapere to get it across a continent than across
an ocean, but you never know.

-- Alan

PS: Speaking of Pat Shaw, Holland, etc, I want to thank  Antony Heywood for
his part in the new edition of "New Wine in Old Bottles."  I've had the chance
to compare the new and old editions, and the new one is far more usable and
comprehensible - not to mention available!  -- APW




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:21:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:16:00 +0000
From: Mary Stafford <mes-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Romantic Dances
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <01BF7258.4A35EDC0-AT-
mes.world.std.com>
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Terry Gaffney asked for romantic dances. Here are a few of my favorites.

(1) Mad Robin
I love those flirty passes up or down the set, even though I tend to bump into the other couple if I really keep my eyes locked on my partner! And I also love the turn for the first couple just after the first man has moved down to second place. I only recently danced this as a man for the first time and was delighted to find it was just as nice for the first man as for the first woman, a seamless movement of turn-and-connect.

(2) Well Hall
No specific part, but nice and dreamy and fun.

(3) From Aberdeen
For the first couple, it's one long round of turns and circles, touch and part, re-touch and part again. 

Mary Stafford

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:47:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:46:27 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Pat Shaw's  "Holland as seen in the ECD"
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b4c64d1642b7-AT-
[140.186.55.89]>
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>PS: Speaking of Pat Shaw, Holland, etc, I want to thank  Antony Heywood for
>his part in the new edition of "New Wine in Old Bottles."  I've had the chance
>to compare the new and old editions, and the new one is far more usable and
>comprehensible - not to mention available!  -- APW

Ahhhh.  But what's the quality of the product of the knitting instructions!?


Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:35:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:35:30 -0500
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210100b4c66299aef0-AT-
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>At 10:33 AM -0500 2/8/00, Eric Arnold wrote:



>So it seems that the ides of February shouldn't come before the 14th, and
>might be on the 15th when it has 29 days, since the middle of the month
>falls then -- but the full moon isn't until the 19th, so perhaps one
>should wait till then...

The Romans were _never_ very rational when it came to calendars.
The Ides are not "calculted" as the middle of of the months. Rather,
one learns a "table" of Ides as one learns the equally idiotic
bizarreness of "30 days hath Sept." etc. Several months (not
just February) have the 13th as their Ides.

These things used to be inflicted on students up through the
18th century (lingering in certain backwaters.) In consequence,
you will sometimes still see leap years referred to as bisextile
--the Roman way of adding the extra day in the 366 day years was
as "the second 6th Kalends of March." The day before the Kalends
of March was called "2nd Kalends" and counting went back into
February from there. In effect, a Roman leap year had two days
named the equivalent of our Feb. 24th.

Roman counting also messed up initial implementation of the
Julian calendar (most likely because the Senate bumped Caesar
off before any of the "bisextile" years occurred. They miscounted
(or rather, they inappropriately applied Roman-style "inclusive"
counting) and put in extra days every three years for a decade
or so, until Augustus got some decent calendar advice. To repair
the situation, he declared a moratorium on leap years until
things got back to where they would have been had the Senate
been able to count. That was, if I recall correctly, our year
4 CE.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:36:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:35:30 -0500
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210100b4c66299aef0-AT-
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>At 10:33 AM -0500 2/8/00, Eric Arnold wrote:



>So it seems that the ides of February shouldn't come before the 14th, and
>might be on the 15th when it has 29 days, since the middle of the month
>falls then -- but the full moon isn't until the 19th, so perhaps one
>should wait till then...

The Romans were _never_ very rational when it came to calendars.
The Ides are not "calculted" as the middle of of the months. Rather,
one learns a "table" of Ides as one learns the equally idiotic
bizarreness of "30 days hath Sept." etc. Several months (not
just February) have the 13th as their Ides.

These things used to be inflicted on students up through the
18th century (lingering in certain backwaters.) In consequence,
you will sometimes still see leap years referred to as bisextile
--the Roman way of adding the extra day in the 366 day years was
as "the second 6th Kalends of March." The day before the Kalends
of March was called "2nd Kalends" and counting went back into
February from there. In effect, a Roman leap year had two days
named the equivalent of our Feb. 24th.

Roman counting also messed up initial implementation of the
Julian calendar (most likely because the Senate bumped Caesar
off before any of the "bisextile" years occurred. They miscounted
(or rather, they inappropriately applied Roman-style "inclusive"
counting) and put in extra days every three years for a decade
or so, until Augustus got some decent calendar advice. To repair
the situation, he declared a moratorium on leap years until
things got back to where they would have been had the Senate
been able to count. That was, if I recall correctly, our year
4 CE.

================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:46:47 -0500 (EST)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Romance etc. OT pedantry
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <61.161c000.25d212f7-AT-
aol.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In a message dated 2/7/00 8:11:06 PM, winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:

<< I was trying to think of a dance that referred to goats just the other 
day, and I failed, but this gives me the chance to ask here.  Does the 
collective ECD intelligence know of any dance that refers to goats?  >>

What about Mr. Beveridge's—or Mr. Ganiford's—Maggoat? 

Judy G.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:51:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:47:57 -0500
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Ides of February (was: Romance etc. OT pedantry)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210101b4c6691234e8-AT-
[166.84.193.89]>
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References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10002080953590.24917-100000-AT-
frogger.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <v04210100b4c66299aef0-AT-
[166.84.193.89]>

Apologies for the duplication of my last message -- I forgot
that my emailer "helpfully" puts the address in both To: and
Cc: headers. This time I have edited it out! Also, I omitted
to sign the message was as being from me, not another, less
pedantic, user of this same account!

Michael Siemon.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:44:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:40:34 -0500 (EST)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Goat dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <11.f3f147.25d22da2-AT-
aol.com>
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Marianwrote-

 >The goat dance question is quite the poser. I was reduced to
 >looking the word up in various foreign language dictionaries,
 >hoping to at least scare up a bi-lingual pun, but even that
 >didn't produce anything. John Carver is right, anything with any
 >form of the word "caper" would be relevant, but does ECD even
 >have capers? I thought they were just a morris thing.

And, of course, any dance with a "chevron" figure in it. (No
"kidding"! The V-shape was named "chevron" because of its
resemblance to a goat's head and horns.)

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:32:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 00:32:16 -0500
From: John Patcai <john.patcai-AT-
utoronto.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Goats
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003101bf72bf$2d26c9e0$6e81968e-AT-
john>
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Greetings,

It is not ECD, but there is a traditional Newfoundland folk dance, which is called "Running the Goat", which has its own tune of the same name. There has been some revival of the Newfoundland dances in the last few years.

John Patcai

--Boundary_(ID_Ic+Inw9Q92vpzbzYtlBIIw)
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=3>Greetings,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It is not ECD, but there is a traditional Newfoundland 
folk dance, which is called "Running the Goat", which has its own tune of the 
same name. There has been some revival of the Newfoundland dances in the last 
few years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>John Patcai</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_Ic+Inw9Q92vpzbzYtlBIIw)--
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Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:05:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:07:00 -0500
From: Michael Darby <darby.1-AT-
osu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: French Four?
To: "'ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu'" <ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Though this question relates to 19th century dances I thought I'd query the 
ECD list membership.  I'm looking for information on a dance or dance type 
called the French Four.  I first encountered the term in the title of a 
piece of music on Jim Kimball's Sackett's Harbor recording  -- the "Niagara 
French Four" (ca 1812).  Subsequently, I discovered it as the name of a 
rather simple straightforward contra dance, which surprised me since I 
wouldn't have thought the tune title to refer to a particular dance.  My 
next encounter with the term however, was in the Flett's book, Traditional 
Dancing in Scotland,  which said that it was a term for a type of dance 
derived from (or also called) the "Parisian Quadrilles", in which only two 
couples would dance the head-couple figures of a quadrille.  I was 
intrigued by this idea of a two-couple quadrille and the French Four as a 
dance type. I searched the Dance Instruction Manuals, Ca.1600-1920 web-site 
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dihome.html but only came up with 
references to the contra dance, all essentially the same.

Anyone have information on the origin of this dance, its name, two-couple 
quadrilles or its relation to such?  Was the concept of just two couples 
dancing the quadrille popular at one time?  The ECD repertoire has quite a 
few Playford two-couple dances and some modern ones in that style but 
nothing I've come across from the late 18th -19th century.

Michael Darby




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 11:14:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:17:30 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: French Four?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Michael Darby wrote:

> Though this question relates to 19th century dances I thought I'd query the
> ECD list membership.  I'm looking for information on a dance or dance type
> called the French Four.  I first encountered the term in the title of a
> piece of music on Jim Kimball's Sackett's Harbor recording  -- the "Niagara
> French Four" (ca 1812).  Subsequently, I discovered it as the name of a
> rather simple straightforward contra dance, which surprised me since I
> wouldn't have thought the tune title to refer to a particular dance.  My
> next encounter with the term however, was in the Flett's book, Traditional
> Dancing in Scotland,  which said that it was a term for a type of dance
> derived from (or also called) the "Parisian Quadrilles", in which only two
> couples would dance the head-couple figures of a quadrille.  I was
> intrigued by this idea of a two-couple quadrille and the French Four as a
> dance type. I searched the Dance Instruction Manuals, Ca.1600-1920 web-site
> http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dihome.html but only came up with
> references to the contra dance, all essentially the same.
>
> Anyone have information on the origin of this dance, its name, two-couple
> quadrilles or its relation to such?  Was the concept of just two couples
> dancing the quadrille popular at one time?  The ECD repertoire has quite a
> few Playford two-couple dances and some modern ones in that style but
> nothing I've come across from the late 18th -19th century.
>
> Michael Darby

The rather simple contra dance shows up in two versions in the Contra Dance
Book of Ricky Holden published in 1956. He compares it to Durang's Hornpipe and
Aruorora Waltz and also quotes from Beth Tolman (who wrote the Country Dance
Book with Ralph Page) as follows:
"No one is sure whether it is really French or not. Since it is a high
favourite in towns with many French Canadians, it undoubtedly came from
somewhere in Canada. "This dance always used to be put in a program as a
breather between two high powered numbers, since it contains plenty of
balancing and very little swinging.""

Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net


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Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:49:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:48:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Mary Railing <mrailing-AT-
kiva.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Goat dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000209174716.13954B-100000-AT-
sherrill.kiva.net>
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  If your goat horns are invisible, you can dance Cuckolds all in a Row!
:)

--Mary Railing

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:35:45 PST
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:35:18 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: French Four?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/9/00 2:14:33 PM, Ben Stein wrote:

<<The rather simple contra dance shows up in two versions in the Contra Dance
Book of Ricky Holden published in 1956. He compares it to Durang's Hornpipe 
and
Aruorora Waltz and also quotes from Beth Tolman (who wrote the Country Dance
Book with Ralph Page) as follows:
"No one is sure whether it is really French or not. Since it is a high
favourite in towns with many French Canadians, it undoubtedly came from
somewhere in Canada. "This dance always used to be put in a program as a
breather between two high powered numbers, since it contains plenty of
balancing and very little swinging."">>

Although French Fours (French Four?) can be done as a "breather" dance, Mary 
DesRosiers called it at a dance last summer at a really zippy tempo, and the 
dance really came alive. I've called it that way 3 times since, and it went 
over well each time, despite being a very uneven dance. You'll notice that 
the actives need to fly to get from one balance to the next. The inactives 
can breathe, or they can cheat and swing while the actives do their thing in 
A1.  

Duple minor proper contra
Tune: I suggest driving reels, such as Paddy on the Railroad, played at 
around 120 bpm

A1 (1-2): Actives balance 
(3-4): Actives pull by and go outside and below inactives, who do not move 
up, and meet in next actives' place 
(5-6): Actives balance
(7-8): Actives pull by and go outside and above same inactives, who again do 
not move, and meet in original place
A2: Actives balance and swing
B1: Actives down the center, turn as couple and come back up, cast off with 
original twos
B2: Rights and lefts (across and back)

There are probably other dances called French Fours. Also, I believe that the 
tune Soldier's Joy is alternatively called French Fours. 

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:13:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:54:56 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <tmonsont-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: French Four?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003201bf73af$a1176800$619801d4-AT-
trevormo>
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osu.edu>

Could this formation also be linked in to the Irish Set Dances.  These,
I understand, are thought to be named after the "sets of quadrilles"
taken over to Ireland in past centuries, and then the music changed to
Irish tunes.  These "sets" are all in square formation, but some are in
"half sets" which is couple facing couple.  Some of the half sets I have
found are the "Quadrilles Half Set", "Galway Half Set", "Ballyhahill
Half Set", "Ballinascarty Half Set and the "Australian Half Set".  All
these half sets are of the same format - that is several figures  making
up one set (one figure is danced, there is a break, and the next figure
is danced).

The above could be a further lead in your search.

By the way, if you haven't come across Irish Set dancing and see a class
or "Set dance Ceili" advertised - try it!!  It really is an enjoyable
dance form - nothing like ECD, but really worth giving a try!

Trevor Monson.


----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Darby <darby.1-AT-
osu.edu>
To: 'ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu' <ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 5:07 PM
Subject: French Four?


> Though this question relates to 19th century dances I thought I'd
query the
> ECD list membership.  I'm looking for information on a dance or dance
type
> called the French Four.  I first encountered the term in the title of
a
> piece of music on Jim Kimball's Sackett's Harbor recording  -- the
"Niagara
> French Four" (ca 1812).  Subsequently, I discovered it as the name of
a
> rather simple straightforward contra dance, which surprised me since I
> wouldn't have thought the tune title to refer to a particular dance.
My
> next encounter with the term however, was in the Flett's book,
Traditional
> Dancing in Scotland,  which said that it was a term for a type of
dance
> derived from (or also called) the "Parisian Quadrilles", in which only
two
> couples would dance the head-couple figures of a quadrille.  I was
> intrigued by this idea of a two-couple quadrille and the French Four
as a
> dance type. I searched the Dance Instruction Manuals, Ca.1600-1920
web-site
> http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dihome.html but only came up with
> references to the contra dance, all essentially the same.
>
> Anyone have information on the origin of this dance, its name,
two-couple
> quadrilles or its relation to such?  Was the concept of just two
couples
> dancing the quadrille popular at one time?  The ECD repertoire has
quite a
> few Playford two-couple dances and some modern ones in that style but
> nothing I've come across from the late 18th -19th century.
>
> Michael Darby
>
>
>
>



__________________________________________________

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Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:44:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:41:39 -0500
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: French Four?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130303b4c90a3e3cfe-AT-
[63.211.185.221]>
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>the actives need to fly to get from one balance to the next. The inactives
>can breathe, or they can cheat and swing while the actives do their thing in
>A1.

Hmmm.  Not to be cranky, but i've always enjoyed this dance more when the
inactives participate by *getting out of the way*... that is, taking hands
and moving up or down the set between the casting actives.  It certainly
flows a lot better that way, and allows for some partner interaction
without "cheating".

cheers - Linda


__________________________________________________
"Oh, yes.  It's vital to remember who you really are.
It's very important.  It isn't a good idea to rely on other
people or things to do it for you, you see.  They always
get it wrong."        (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery")
__________________________________________________


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:50:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:49:36 -0500
From: John Patcai <john.patcai-AT-
utoronto.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Running the Goat
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002301bf742a$054946c0$6b81968e-AT-
john>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anyone interested in the music for the trad Nfld dance Running the Goat can
go to the web site http://www.pigeoninlet.nfnet.com/seesound.htm, which has
the music portion of Kelly Russell's web site. Here there are a number of
very nice Nfld things.

As far as Running the Goat goes, there are two offerings of which I am
aware. Both recordings are of Frank Maher. There may be other versions, but
the web site doesn't list the tunes on the albums.

All the Best - Folk Music of St John's, Newfoundland has the tune on it.
There is no tune book, but this is a very listenable album of various
performers, mostly singing.

Close to the Floor - Newfoundland Dance Music also has the tune on it.
This has the original tune, plus three other tunes that the St. John's
musicians may play for this dance, and all the dance tunes on the album are
notated in the accompanying booklet.

Beware: ECD or even contra dancers may not believe that people actually
dance as fast as this music goes. However, they do dance it that fast, and
the dance also lasts longer than than most in the ECD repertoire. Good
cardiovascular fitness is recommended before starting. Similar energy
consumption to jogging.

John Patcai

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:11:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:02:22 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Boston Vintage Dance, 2/13/00
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v0421015eb4c90f78c5ab-AT-
[24.128.26.36]>
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popserver.panix.com>

A reminder and announcement about this month's Tea Dance in Newton, to be held
on Sunday, February 13th, the day before Valentine's Day. This Tea Dance will
feature dances of the 1890's; after all, what could be more romantic than
to celebrate Valentine's Day with waltzes and other dances of the
high Victorian era?  Refreshments will also reflect this romantic theme.

We will be reviewing Waltz, Schottische, and possibly Polka for
beginners, and teaching an assortment of Waltz and Schottische
variations.  A little bit of Ragtime may also be permitted into our
otherwise staid and conservative ballroom, and a few Contras and
possibly some German Cotillions can be expected.  Teaching will be by
Dr. Patri Pugliese and Mr. Michael Bergman; Dr. Pugliese will also be
available to provide style hints to the more experienced dancers.

As usual, the location is the First Unitarian Society of Newton, 1320
Washington Street, West Newton, right next to the West Newton
Commuter Rail stop, and easily accessible by car, with free parking
in many locations nearby.  If you need more detailed directions,
please call (617) 964-7684 or write to eclectic-AT-
mit.edu.

The dance starts at 2 and runs till 5, with lovely refreshments
served at the break.  This month, as in many previous months, many of
the pastries will be supplied by the Liliputian Baking Company, a
very small firm composed of very small people who bake most excellent
small cakes.

Our music will be provided by some of the finest musicians in the
land, none of whom, unfortunately, will be in attendance; hence, they
will be present only by proxy, through the modern miracle of the
acoustic recording device originally invented by Mr. Edison, but
since perfected by Mr. Sony.

The price remains a low $5, remarkable in this day and age of wonders
and skyrocketing prices.

That's Boston, MA, for those of you in Ontario who might otherwise be confused.
"Of course he has a website.  We *all* have websites.  It's the eve 
of the 21st  century, and we're all barbarians!" 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:59:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:59:16 -0800
From: South Bay English Country Dance <sbecd-AT-
geocities.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: so much music, so little cash....
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20000211015916.009c8374-AT-
pop.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good day.
given a limited budget, and little previous knowledge of the bands involved,
I have to choose a few (probably no more than 6) CDs to purchase amongst a
largish selection (17 titles, listed below).
Therefore, I will appreciate hearing from anyone who has strong feelings
(either in positive or negative) about any of these musicians and their
work, and who can help steer the available dollars toward their best
possible use. I am looking for good executions, which are pleasant to listen
and, if necessary, to dance, and do not care about historical accuracy or
period instruments.
[note: the Bare Necessities and Hold the Mustard CDs are not in the list
because I already own them]. Suggestions for other CDs not already in this
list will also be very welcome.
Please reply off-line to sbecd-AT-
geocities.com, and I will post a summary.
Thank you. Giovanni De Amici

list of CDs:
Assembly players;     Dance and danceability
Assembly players;     Assembly dances
Assembly players;     Walsh ball
Assembly players;     Playford from the new world
Assembly players;     New wine in old bottles
Assembly players;     Purcell ball
Assembly players;     Purcell encore
Contraband;           Nothing to declare
Cohen and Fleming;    Grand dancing master
Douglass et al;       Apollo's banquet
Dutch comfort;        Shades of Shaw
Kenton ramblers;      Dances of Pat Shaw
Playford consort;     Altenglishe country dances
Playford consort;     Bray's country dances
Pemberley players;    Pride and prejudice collection
York waits;           Punk's delight
Wild thyme;           Dutch crossing

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:30:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:27:51 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: French Four?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <9f.1a35cb4.25d4cda7-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/10/00 7:46:46 PM, you wrote:

<<Hmmm.  Not to be cranky, but i've always enjoyed this dance more when the
inactives participate by *getting out of the way*... that is, taking hands
and moving up or down the set between the casting actives.  It certainly
flows a lot better that way, and allows for some partner interaction
without "cheating".

cheers - Linda>>

Well, that's what makes horse racing. I actually prefer that they *not* get 
out of the way. Contra dancers, being non-ECDers, are not used to moving just 
to get out of the way. Half the dancers will move, and half will not, if 
instructed to move; if instructed to stay, nearly all will hold still. Having 
the inactives stay put gives the actives farther to go - a plus in this case, 
as it makes the dance brisker - and a definite target place for which to aim. 
As to cheating with a swing? Contra dancers love nothing more. But do it any 
way you like - I just happened to find myself at a dance where it was done as 
I indicated in the prior posting, and found that a dance I previously had 
found dull suddenly came to life. Of course, it could have been the music - 
as I recall, Mary Cay Brass was on piano, and Dave Kaynor was on fiddle....

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:51:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:43:41 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-
iae.nl>
Subject: Star.Star
To: "'Mailing List, ECD'" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <20000211115118.2B8107C10-AT-
iaehv.iae.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I am busy with a book of dances written by the late Ægle Hoekstra.
One dance he wrote presents a problem.
He called it simply *.* or Star.Star.
In Dutch this computer term is sterretje-punt-sterretje which we have tended
to pronounce star-point-star which indeed trips nicely off the tongue.
However modern computer terminology would seem to demand that this be
pronounced star-dot-star.
It has been suggested that this should be nailed down when the book is
published by defining how Star.Star should be pronounced.
The question is which do we use? The one that trips off the tongue or the
"correct" terminology?

The book and accompanying CD is expected to be ready about May.
Three numbers have been specially recorded and the CD publisher is busy
obtaining permission to reissue previous recordings (not easy when one is by
Simon and Garfunkel). The book is in its final correction phase.
Keep an eye on the NVS website for the announcement: http://www.nvs-dance.nl

Antony Heywood
Volksdansvereniging NVS


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`
end

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:05:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:05:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: "'Mailing List, ECD'" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10002110952530.6346-100000-AT-
galaga.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Antony Heywood wrote:

> I am busy with a book of dances written by the late Ægle Hoekstra.
> One dance he wrote presents a problem.
> He called it simply *.* or Star.Star.
> In Dutch this computer term is sterretje-punt-sterretje which we have tended
> to pronounce star-point-star which indeed trips nicely off the tongue.
> However modern computer terminology would seem to demand that this be
> pronounced star-dot-star.
> It has been suggested that this should be nailed down when the book is
> published by defining how Star.Star should be pronounced.
> The question is which do we use? The one that trips off the tongue or the
> "correct" terminology?

My opinion:  Define it as the one which "trips off the tongue."  I believe
it is an illusion that there is a "correct" pronounciation outside of the
context in which the period/decimal point/dot has a particular meaning or
usage.  If you are reading a number with a decimal point, such as 365.24,
are you more likely to say "three hundred sixty-five dot two four" or
"three hundred sixty-five point two four"?  

Besides, we're so overwhelmed with thisandthat dot calm that I'm
fedupwiththisnonsense dot angry, and would be completely turned off by
star dot star...

Eric.Arnold
Ann.Arbor.MI.US


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:39:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:11 -0500 (EST)
From: JoAnne Rawls <ljrawls-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000211223912.4771.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
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Antony, Eric--
I really should let someone more computer-savvy respond to this, but I 
happened to see it, and couldn't resist.

*.* is a search command left over from the bad old days of DOS. It means 
(when you give it a set of characters to search for) to find anything that 
has those characters before or after it. Basically, it says to find 
everything to do with the search object.

BTW, I've never heard it pronounced any other way than "star dot star." 
Sorry, Eric!  :^)

JoAnne Rawls, also weary of 'dot-this' and 'dot-that,' but whatcha gonna do? 
It's here to stay.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:10:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:09:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000211230912.21870.qmail-AT-
web1603.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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But what does computer terminology have to do with it?  It's the
title of a dance not a website.  Eric is correct that Star Point
Star, Star Dot Star, even Star Period Star, although not so
felicitous to the ear, are all equally valid English language
interpretations of that set of symbols.

--- JoAnne Rawls <ljrawls-AT-
hotmail.com> wrote:
> Antony, Eric--
> I really should let someone more computer-savvy respond to this,
> but I 
> happened to see it, and couldn't resist.
> 
> *.* is a search command left over from the bad old days of DOS. It
> means 
> (when you give it a set of characters to search for) to find
> anything that 
> has those characters before or after it. Basically, it says to find
> 
> everything to do with the search object.
> 
> BTW, I've never heard it pronounced any other way than "star dot
> star." 
> Sorry, Eric!  :^)
> 
> JoAnne Rawls, also weary of 'dot-this' and 'dot-that,' but whatcha
> gonna do? 
> It's here to stay.
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
__________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:45:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:43:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000212004333.16969.qmail-AT-
web3306.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Actually it's Asterisk Period Asterisk to be completely correct.
I think it was computer people who, in their constant bid
shorten everything, started calling * a "star". Of course until
Windows 95 came along they had to shorten everything because
they had to make file names no longer than eight characters.

Andy Peterson
Portland, Oregon

--- Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:
> 
> But what does computer terminology have to do with it?  It's
> the
> title of a dance not a website.  Eric is correct that Star
> Point
> Star, Star Dot Star, even Star Period Star, although not so
> felicitous to the ear, are all equally valid English language
> interpretations of that set of symbols.
> 
> --- JoAnne Rawls <ljrawls-AT-
hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Antony, Eric--
> > I really should let someone more computer-savvy respond to
> this,
> > but I 
> > happened to see it, and couldn't resist.
> > 
> > *.* is a search command left over from the bad old days of
> DOS. It
> > means 
> > (when you give it a set of characters to search for) to find
> > anything that 
> > has those characters before or after it. Basically, it says
> to find
> > 
> > everything to do with the search object.
> > 
> > BTW, I've never heard it pronounced any other way than "star
> dot
> > star." 
> > Sorry, Eric!  :^)
> > 
> > JoAnne Rawls, also weary of 'dot-this' and 'dot-that,' but
> whatcha
> > gonna do? 
> > It's here to stay.
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> =====
> Do you know about the Hunger Site?
> Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
> Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
> No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
> Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
> 
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:33:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:35:06 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130302b4ca77153c35-AT-
[140.186.55.101]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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So what I want to know is whether the dance has anything to do with 8+3, or
any other of the truly unnecessary characteristics of PCs!

Or, to put it another way, how would one express a punkt in dance?

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:29:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:35:26 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <01bf7523$591de5e0$82e7adce-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Antony Heywood writes:
>He called it simply *.* or Star.Star.
>In Dutch this computer term is sterretje-punt-sterretje<

Print both possibilities, and let people choose for themselves; however, you
might mention that the English speakers closest to the milieu in which the
dance was created pronounce it "Star Point Star," which gives that
pronunciation more validity (in my opinion, anyway).

Another way to look at it is, did the composer of the dance have an opinion
or preference about the English translation?   Because if so, that would
trump any other factor.

Marian Phillips

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:16:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:16:04 -0600
From: Charlene Charette <charlene-AT-
flash.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38A516C4.FD67FD38-AT-
flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <20000212004333.16969.qmail-AT-
web3306.mail.yahoo.com>

Andrew Peterson wrote:
> 
> Actually it's Asterisk Period Asterisk to be completely correct.
> I think it was computer people who, in their constant bid
> shorten everything, started calling * a "star". Of course until
> Windows 95 came along they had to shorten everything because
> they had to make file names no longer than eight characters.

And before "*" was called "star" computer people referred to as
"splat".  But Star Splat Star doesn't sound very appealing.

--Charlene

-- 
The present [tax] system will not be abolished until all the members of
Congress are forced to fill out their tax returns alone, without the
help of an accountant.  -- Columnist Nichoals Von Hoffman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:43:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:43:36 +0100 (CET)
From: Tom Goodale <goodale-AT-
aei-potsdam.mpg.de>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002121141520.880-100000-AT-
saraband.aei-potsdam.mpg.de>
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<switch pedant>
Of course this limit mainly existed in the Microsoft world; VMS, Unix, ...
had the ability for longer names long before Windows 95 8-)
<switch nopedant>

Tom

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Andrew Peterson wrote:

> Actually it's Asterisk Period Asterisk to be completely correct.
> I think it was computer people who, in their constant bid
> shorten everything, started calling * a "star". Of course until
> Windows 95 came along they had to shorten everything because
> they had to make file names no longer than eight characters.
> 
> Andy Peterson
> Portland, Oregon
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:45:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:45:19 +0100 (CET)
From: Tom Goodale <goodale-AT-
aei-potsdam.mpg.de>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002121144070.880-100000-AT-
saraband.aei-potsdam.mpg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT



On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

> So what I want to know is whether the dance has anything to do with 8+3, or
> any other of the truly unnecessary characteristics of PCs!
> 
> Or, to put it another way, how would one express a punkt in dance?

Interesting idea. A stamp ? Everyone falling to the floor ? Everyone
jumping up ?

Tom


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:04:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JLSZEZQYMA8YIS5L-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Tom Goodale remarks:

><switch pedant>
>Of course this limit mainly existed in the Microsoft world; VMS, Unix, ...
>had the ability for longer names long before Windows 95 8-)
><switch nopedant>

>Tom

>On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Andrew Peterson wrote:

> Actually it's Asterisk Period Asterisk to be completely correct.
> I think it was computer people who, in their constant bid
> shorten everything, started calling * a "star". Of course until
> Windows 95 came along they had to shorten everything because
> they had to make file names no longer than eight characters.
> 
> Andy Peterson
> Portland, Oregon
> 

Well, now that we've opened up the pedantry stakes: Neither "*.*" nor
8.3 filenames originated with DOS, nor indeed on microcomputers at all.
As far as I can tell, DOS got it from CP/M, and CP/M got it from Digital's
RT-11.  (And some computers didn't actually have any built-in concept of
a filename at all - in the early 80s I participated in implementing a file
system on a ModComp machine, and then reimplemented the editor to do it.)

Okay, now I'm seriously off-topic, and as list-owner I must advise myself
to shut up.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:51:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:51:02 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38A54926.BC38D579-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20000211230912.21870.qmail-AT-
web1603.mail.yahoo.com>

Barbara Ruth wrote:
> 
> But what does computer terminology have to do with it?  It's the
> title of a dance not a website.

A lot -- (I assume) he invented the title to catch out people
who store dances in files on their computer in the hope that *.*
would prove an impossible file name.

How did the author pronounce it when calling in England?  How do
English speaking Dutch geeks pronounce *.* ?
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 07:33:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:32:52 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <tmonsont-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <006201bf756e$b6ab5f80$699c01d4-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20000211230912.21870.qmail-AT-
web1603.mail.yahoo.com> <38A54926.BC38D579-AT-
ugsolutions.com>

Just to jump on the band wagon, has any body mentioned "asterisk full
stop asterisk" yet?

Trev.


----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Star.Star


> Barbara Ruth wrote:
> >
> > But what does computer terminology have to do with it?  It's the
> > title of a dance not a website.
>
> A lot -- (I assume) he invented the title to catch out people
> who store dances in files on their computer in the hope that *.*
> would prove an impossible file name.
>
> How did the author pronounce it when calling in England?  How do
> English speaking Dutch geeks pronounce *.* ?



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.

http://im.yahoo.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:05:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:05:18 -0500 (EST)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <b4.174eb69.25d6ecce-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Anyone who names a dance with non alphanumeric characters is asking
for trouble and shouldn't be surprised if people start pronouncing
it in ways (s)he didn't intend. Regardless of any conclusion we might
reach here, the name *.* will be seen by people who are unaware of
it and will pronounce it whatever way suggests it self, from "star
dot star" to "asterisk period asterisk."

Meanwhile, it will be misalphabetized in databases and difficult
to search for by programs that use * as a wild card.

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:54:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:55:39 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130301b4cb4ea759f1-AT-
[140.186.55.167]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Well, there are practical considerations, not just how to speak the name of
this here dance, but all the others that people have raised.  And it seems
that we've discerned that a name of that sort, sort of an icon of our age
as names go, has all the possibility of being much joked about.

But I'm still really curious about how the dance goes.

I wonder whether Philippe will tell us!

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:01:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:00:52 -0500
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
loc.gov>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: set nomail
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <s8a7a83a.006-AT-
loc.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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set nomail
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:10:44 PST
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:04:33 -0500
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
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sorry, got the wrong address in there. se ya around!

<<< Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
loc.gov>  2/14  7:00a >>>
set nomail

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Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:29:37 PST
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:29:07 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: French Four?
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   Here is a citation I got from Paul Tyler when doing some research into
dances that might have been done in the days when Lincoln was a lawyer
riding the circuit in east central Illinois.  I was actually helping a 
group of 4th graders find some sources of information.

-----

And here a clip from Harvey Lee Ross's memoirs, written in 1899:
"AN EARLY PIONEER DANCE - MAJOR NEWTON WALKER AND HIS FIDDLE
        . . . In The Democrat of June 10 [1897] I find the story related by
Major Newton Walker about his fiddling at our Havana ball sixty years
ago.  He has always been noted for his accurate memory, but in this case
he has forgotten some of the incidents.  It will interest young people
to know about the pioneer manner of conducting parties.  It was Dr.
Price, and not Dr. Allen, who went with me to Lewistown to secure the
services of Major Walker as our fiddler.  Dr. Price then lived in
Havana, but afterward moved to Lewistown.  Dr. Hillburt was also a
Havana doctor.  When the Major agreed to go with us we called for him at
Truman Phelps' tavern in a common two-horse wagon.  He was evidently
expecting a carriage, but was too polite to say anything.  The only seat
was a board laid across the wagon bed.  The Major came out with his
violin in a beautiful case, and the case was wrapped up as carefully as
if it had been a baby.  We got on very well until we came to the bottom
road beyond Waterford where heavy teaming had made deep ruts.  The front
wheels would occasionally drop into a deep rut, and down would go our
seat with all three of us sprawling in the wagon bed.  But we finally
got to the ball-room, and the dance commenced much as the Major
described it.  The man who wanted him to play faster was Dr. Hillburt.
He was very portly, and weighed some 200 pounds.  After Hillburt had
danced about half an hour, he pulled off his coat; a little later away
went his vest; and as he got warmer he kicked off his shoes and finished
the "French four" in his stocking feet.  In regard to the Major's
comments on my dancing I have only to say that he had not lived long
enough in Illinois to know what good Sucker dancing was!  After the
dance was over we took up a collection of about $10 to pay the fiddler,
but Major Walker declined the money, and said he would only ask us to
send him back to Lewistown.  I can only say that if he had run for
office he would have gotten every vote in Havana."

The French Four is a bit difficult to interpret.  Most people think it
means a quadrille or square dance for four couples.  It might actually
refer to similar types of movements (circles, crossing moves, stars,
do-si-do, turns) done in a formation of just four people.  That means it
might be something like a 4-hand reel, which is Scottish in origin.
Jigging, by the way, is where tap-dancing came from.  The old style is
what today we call clogging.

-----

Jonathan

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Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:46:11 PST
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:45:49 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus" <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Ensemble Gallilei Plays English Country Dance Music
To: ECD Listserv - Posts <ECD-AT-
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Yesterday, Ensemble Galilei debuted their new album, "Come, Gentle Night, 
Music of Shakespeare's World," in the great hall at St. John's 
College.  Several tunes played are attributed to Playford, etc.  I was 
sorry to see that some members had left the group, to be replaced by 
others: something was missing (like the bowed psaltery!).  However, I 
greatly enjoyed the music and expect that the CD, on the Telarc label, will 
be well worth buying.  In my judgement most of the tunes are not 
'danceable' but the arrangements are nice to listen to, nonetheless.

The program was too lengthy for listing here.  Here are some familiar 
favorites attributed to Playford: Lillibulero, Cold and Raw, Mister Issac's 
Maggot, Chestnut (Dove's Vagary), The Cobbler's Hornpipe, Drive the Cold 
Winter Away, Jenny Pluck Pears, Hearts Ease, and Gathering Peascods; others 
included In a Garden so Green, Woody Cock, and Jack's Health.

The group also played original compositions which were fun to listen to: 
The Asp; Fire, Burn, and Cauldron Bubble; and Rumble Thy Bellyful.

As a BMG classical music club subscriber, I've other music by this group 
through this source; they just started to carry Telarc so I'm going to wait 
to see if I can save a few bucks by purchasing there.


-- Roger
_ __ _________________ _   ___________________________________________
  /__) _,___,  _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: Roger-AT-
just.net
          _/_               www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html
_______ (/____________________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:50:48 PST
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:52:42 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-
iae.nl>
Subject: RE: Star.Star
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Emily L. Ferguson wrote

> But I'm still really curious about how the dance goes.
>
> I wonder whether Philippe will tell us!
>

Why not wait until it is published by the NVS sometime in May?
The feature which gives it its name (it's a 4 couple longways dance) is two
stars at the ends.
The other special feature is the step which is step-hop, step-hop,
one-two-three-hop (like border Morris).
The music is a 32-bar hornpipe.

Thanks to everyone who replied.
I have just noticed that Ægle in typing the dance descriptions for the book
used a decimal point (a symbol I didn't even know existed in the font set).
That and the comments I have received from the list have decided me to give
the pronunciation as star-point-star in the book.
As far as databases are concerned, the dance is called Star·Star and we'll
just have to see how automatic databases cope with that (better than *.* I
guess).

Antony Heywood


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 05:36:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:46:42 -0500
From: Don Bell <dbell1-AT-
nycap.rr.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Summary: Advice on Teaching Beginners
To: ECD-AT-
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Bruce,

At 10:50 AM 2/6/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Many thanks for all the great ideas and advice.
> >My beginner program has been much enriched.

>Can you summarize to the list?

Sorry for the delay in getting this together. As I am still in the process 
of delivering these beginner workshops, my thoughts on the subject are 
still very much evolving.

For me, the delicious thing about teaching beginners is that it's a 
bit  like being given a group of  'virgin dancers'  unspoiled by bad habits 
that sometimes sink into the bones of many experienced dancers who never 
had the luxury of beginner lessons. Helping beginners learn the really 
important basics first - walking, posture, setting, hand hold, arm 
position, eye contact, dancing to the phrase of the music, filling the 
phrase of music with movement, consciousness of other dancers, showing 
courtesy & just having fun and (of course) 'giving weight' - before they 
are exposed to the rough and tumble of many public dances is no small 
reward for such an undertaking. Then there are the continuing rewards later 
when you and your fellow dancers dance with them. Also, when beginners get 
really excited about this new form of recreation, their enthusiasm is 
contagious.

Of course, the main reason for doing this in the first place was to build 
the local English dance community. If one doesn't keep introducing the joys 
of English dancing to new people, the pool of  local English dancers may 
dry up.  Many potential English dancers are intimidated by just the thought 
of coming to a regular dance and being thrown in the 'deep end' with a 
bunch of experienced dancers. In a beginner series, they can be assured of 
learning at a more leisurely pace, getting lots of individual attention, 
and not experiencing as many of those those awful moments when they feel 
mentally, socially or physically inadequate because they can't keep up with 
the group. Also, some people place more value on  formal, paid-for 
instruction over informal, on-the-fly instruction at a regular dance. Once 
they have the 'official' instruction behind them, many beginners then have 
enough confidence and courage to go to a regular dance, even if they don't 
know anyone there.

Starting beginners off on the right foot (so to speak) is harder than one 
might imagine. One productive outcome for me was a new dance I wrote for 
beginners. I adapted Gene Murrow's Newcastle Bridge (see his ECD in Six 
Easy Lessons!" below) slightly to come up with the following simple dance 
which has shades of Sellenger's Round. I omitted the slipping circle as it 
might be dangerous for some of the less athletic dancers (my one dance 
injury so far was from a slipping circle I did at Pinewoods one year).

Newcastle Circle  Mixer - Tune: Newcastle
A1: All into the center & back ; all set & turn single to center
A2: Partners back to back; set & turn single to partner
B1: Partners right-hand turn, Partners left-hand turn
B2: Partners right-hand turn 1/2
       Next person left-hand turn 1/2
       3rd person (new partner) 2 hand turn once around
       (finish dropping hands, opening up to face center)

There were many very insightful comments on how to approach teaching 
beginners. Below I've included most of the comments that referenced the 
teaching beginner discussion. My apologies to anyone I've accidently 
omitted. For myself, I am especially grateful to Victoria Bestock and Gene 
Murrow who provided the bedrock ideas for my series. I am also grateful to 
David Millstone, Priscilla Burrage, Andy Peterson for insightful comments 
and a host of others who generated a lively discussion on 'giving 
weight',  with serious, light, insightful, ridiculous and amusing 
commentary. I never imagined that such a bagatelle would ignite such a 
blast of  (hot?) air...



**************************************************************************** 
**************
My original message.

As you may know from my previous announcement, I'm doing a 4 lesson series
for beginners.
My main organizing principles are:
- keep it simple, focusing on basic figures, steps and movements
- keep them moving, teach/talk time to a minimum
- choose dances that fit the progression of figures taught
My main resources include:
- Fried Herman's - Ease & Elegance
- Dan Siegel's "English Country Dancing - An Introduction"
- Jack Hamilton's "English Folk Dancing" (EFDSS)
If you have any suggestions on teaching a beginner lesson series, I would
be pleased to hear from you.

**************************************************************************** 
********************

I like your organizing principles, including #2. I was taken aback when I 
first
started ECD, coming from the contra world. It was quite possible to spend 20
minutes teaching a dance that we only got to dance for 3 or 4 minutes!

Choose dances that are not complex--no double figures of eight, please!--and
that are varied. (I think you might want to get a copy of Keller and Shimer's
The Playford Ball to add to your collection of books.)

For starters, you could look at the dances that were chosen for the "Juice of
Barley" album that CDSS issued in the mid-80s. (I confess, many of them are 
not
ones I've danced, but some folks who knew a lot about teaching beginners made
the selection. I'll put an asterisk by dances that I know that would work 
well.)

The dances on the album are:
Juice of Barley *
Gathering Peascods
Indian Queen *
Bonnets so Blue
The Fine Companion
Knole Park *
Duke of Kent's Waltz
Loxley Figure Eight
Childgrove *
Zephyrs and Flora *
Upon a Summer's Day
Speed the Plough
Christchurch Bells

Good luck!

David Millstone

*****************************************************************************
 > My main organizing principles are:
 > - keep it simple, focusing on basic figures, steps and movements
 > - keep them moving, teach/talk time to a minimum
 > - choose dances that fit the progression of figures taught

How about two others?
Base your introductory dances on the background of the learners.
Is it contra? (Use figures common to both.)
Ballroom? (Stress equality of men and women.)
Scottish? (Stress lack of precise, unvarying rules.)
Be very careful in introducing types of music. I would stick to 2/4, 6/8,
and 4/4 in 8 bar phrases for the first three or four dances. Then go to
either a different tempo or a different phrase length, but not both at the
same time.
 >
 > My main resources include:
 > - Fried Herman's - Ease & Elegance
 > - Dan Siegel's "English Country Dancing - An Introduction"
 > - Jack Hamilton's "English Folk Dancing" (EFDSS)

Shimer and Keller are excellent. I've been teaching Scots for over a year
without needing another source except Handel with Care and I Care Not for
These Ladies

Hope these suggestions give you food for thought.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage Vermont US

**************************************************************************** 
**************
Your goals are great, so don't change them! But I'd like to suggest things
you might add to them. I don't think of ECD as pattern-making--I think of
it as organic flow to glorious music. So I start beginners in a different
place, focusing more on dancing and safety, and less on the geometry.
Experienced dancers will get them through the patterns, and they will
quickly pick up the terminology. The only part of the pattern-making that
they really have to learn is progression. The stuff that they don't seem
to pick up on their own is the stuff that I try to teach in a beginner's
workshop. Here it is.
1) "giving weight" (I hate the term, but you all know what I mean by it).
2) Holding hands: The thumb is not in contact with the other person's hand
and they can release themselves from the hand hold whenver they choose.
This prevents injuries, and allows experienced dancers to escape the
deathlike grip of a tense beginner who may be a few beats behind.
3) Long, relaxed arms. An awful lot of dancers come to ECD through contra.
They've learned to dance in tighter sets than we use, and they bend their
elbows quite a bit. (So do tense beginners.) They do right hand turns in
4-6 beats because they are in too close. They pull their opposite off
balance in a right-hands-across, because their opposite had to lean over
sideways to reach their hand. Practice and and two-hand turns and try a
dance that uses hand turns a lot.
3) Dancing to the phrase of the music. This means starting a new phrase on
time, even if you have to let go or turn around or otherwise cheat at the
end of the preceding phrase. Things to practice are "down the center and
back" "right and left hands across" using the last two beats to let go and
change direction, and taking hands and starting in the new direction
exactly on beat one of the new phrase.
4) Filling the phrase of the music. Dance so that you are moving the whole
time, connecting smoothly to the next figure without stopping and without
rushing. Use more space if you are getting done too soon and waiting for
the next move so that you fill all the music. Get into the hypnotic
constant flow.
5) Letting go. I don't mean lose your inhibitions, though that can be nice
too. I mean let go of that hand you are clinging to so tightly! This is a
safety feature. Theoretically correct hand holding should cover it, but I
like to make a special point that in rights and lefts it can wrench
someone's shoulder or back to keep holding their hand once you have passed
them.
6) posture. This should come first, but it takes more than one session to
teach, so I don't usually spend a lot of time in a short beginners
workshop, unless people are obviously having trouble dancing in time
because their weight is not centered, or unless someone is having trouble
covering distance because they hold their weight too far back.
7) Footwork. Setting. Skip-change. (Most adults can skip and slip
without teaching) Setting in waltz time. Anything else they are going to
run into at your dance, such as ranting or step-hop. I usually mention
that almost everything starts on the right foot because men who have done
international dancing are used to starting everything on the left foot, and
won't make the change without having being made conscious of it, and
practicing it.
8) Progression. This is the one piece of the geometry they MUST learn
right away. They can mill about aimlessly for 16 beats on a hey, and the
rest of the line will continue dancing, but if they don't progress, the set
crashes.
The dances that work best for this, in my opinion, are those which start
with circle left or Right hands across to make the "hands four" more
obvious at the beginning of each round. Other ideas for this are to have
the cast off at the end of B2 flow into something with the new neighbor
such as back to back. Setting to corners is harder for brand-new dancers--
they are still mentally in the old foursome, and don't figure out right
away who they are supposed to be dancing with now.
We all get pretty good at helping new folks through the geometry and
interrelationships of the dance patterns. Its this other stuff that is
harder for beginners to notice and figure out on their own, and harder for
experienced dancers to communicate to them in the middle of a dance. I
feel that its this other stuff that makes good dancers out of beginners and
that is the most important stuff to teach at a beginners workshop.
As you teach skills, you are also communicating some terms and figures--
its inevitable. When you teach "long arms" the logical thing is to
practice hand-turns, and then do a dance that has lots, such as
Christchurch Bells. You already have the goals of using easy dances, and
matching the dance to the particular skill you are teaching. It works for
this approach as well. The easier dances will let people focus on HOW they
are dancing since they won't have to think so hard about dance pattern, and
you can choose dances that let the dancers practice the particular skill
you've just taught.

Victoria Bestock

**************************************************************************** 
**************
You make a lot of very good points in this long message, but I
would like to comment specifically on "giving weight". The
concept is completely foreign to someone who has never danced. I
have observed callers telling people to "give weight" and
getting a lot of blank stares because they don't tell people the
mechanics of it. My observation is that it is necessary to make
beginners understand that they are centered and carry their own
weight but that when moving with another person they are also
supporting each other in whatever way is necessary to complete
the move smoothly and on time. That very necessary support of
each other is what is actually happening when "giving weight."
It has nothing to do with leaning and pulling against the other
person, which is how many people interpret it. It is more that
the balanced support you give each other is intended to help you
move as one entity rather than two separate ones. It is a hard
concept to teach. I also have found that even "experienced"
dancers tend to grip other peoples hands because they have never
quite learned to trust that support without holding on for dear
life. I've often wondered if telling them to "support each
other" wouldn't be more meaningful than "give weight". I enjoy
seeing the light that suddenly comes on when a new dancer
experiences the meaning of it for the first time. You can just
see them thinking, "So that's what they mean."

Andy Peterson
Portland, Oregon


Hi Don,

Below is a copy of my "ECD in Six Easy Lessons!" syllabus. I've used it at
Pinewoods, when I've been asked to do the Beginner's class, and as a guide
when asked to teach a series of one or more beginner's evenings.
You can ignore the *Other* stuff, but I've found that the historical
materials interests a lot of people who come to ECD, and it also serves as
a productive way to give folks a rest. As you know, beginners expend a lot
more energy doing the dances than do experienced dancers. Trick is to be
sure that the *vast majority* of the time spent is filled with music and
dance, and not talking.

Have fun,

Gene

-----------------------------
DAY ONE
*Objectives*
Moving: walking, into moving to music.
Carriage (contrast with walking, contras, Scottish, international).
Moving by oneself vs. with others. Circle left, right.
Changing weight: forward and back, left and right. Circle in and out, left
and right.
Slipping step in circle L and R.
Turns: RH, LH, 2H with another.
Set, turn single
Basic geography of longways.
Cast off / Lead up
RH, LH across
Rights and Lefts - 4 changes
*Dances*
Newcastle Bridge (Into center & back, set & turn single; repeat / slip L
and R / RH 1/2 turn
ptn., LH 1/2 turn next, 2H turn 3rd becoming new ptn) [Tune: Newcastle]
Christchurch Bells (K&S)
Dover Pier (K&S)
*Other*
"Others consciousness"- turning a hand that is offered; watching others.
Origins of ECD: Negri/Carozo 16th C. Italian. English indigenous (more on
day 3). Dancing
masters.

*References*
(K&S) Kityy Keller and Genny Shimer, "The Playford Ball"
(Sharp I - VI) Cecil Sharp, "The Country Dance Book"
(CDM 1-7) EFDSS, "Community Dances Manual"
(Herman) Fried Herman, various books and single sheets
(Roodman) Gary Roodman, "Additional Calculated Figures"
(Fallibroome) Bernard Bentley, "English Country Dances,
Fallibroome Collection"
---------------------
DAY TWO
*Objectives*
Siding
Arming
Back-to-back
Heys
Figure 8
Skipping, and use of skipping as textural contrast with dance walk
*Dances*
Auretti's Dutch Skipper (K&S)
Maiden Lane (Sharp III; whole hey as 1st chorus)
Childgrove (K&S)
--------------------
DAY THREE
*Objectives*
Buzz-step swing (cross-hand and ballroom)
Leading down/up the set
Rant
Arches
Hey for 4
Dance round (ballroom)
*Dances*
Bonnets So Blue (CDM 1)
Escort to Leicester (Herman, Naked Truth)
Flowers of Edinburgh (CDM 6)
*Other*
The ECD revival and how it came to America: Sharp, Roberts, Gadd, Storrow,
Conant. NY,
Boston, Pittsburgh, Appalachia.
--------------------
DAY FOUR
*Objectives*
Circle four
Pousette ("forward/back")
Line-of-four
Side-by-side
Circular hey (Rights and Lefts w/o hands)
*Dances*
Knole Park (K&S)
Handel With Care (Roodman, Additional Calculated Figures)
Jack's Maggot (K&S)
--------------------
DAY FIVE
*Objectives*
Triple time
Triple minor
Step-hop
Waltz step
"Gates"

*Dances*
Mr. Isaac's Maggot (K&S)
Nottingham Swing (CDM 2)
Bishop (K&S)
Duke of Kent (K&S)

*Other*
"Introduction to Music" [hand-out "Introduction to Music for English
Country Dancers" in my Training in Music binder]
---------------------
DAY SIX
*Objectives*
Skip change
Contra corners
A classic dance finale
*Dances*
Mount Hills (Fallibroome II)
Fandango (K&S)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:36:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:15:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
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playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Summary: Advice on Teaching Beginners
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Hello All:

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion of teaching beginners -- 
and thanks esp to Don for raising the question and summarizing the answers.  
I've been extremely busy these past few weeks (and continue to be) so while 
I've saved most of the posts, I haven't had time to read many of them.

Now I would like to bring up a closely related issue: Exactly how can 
teachers convey to the uninitiated and highly skeptical the sublime 
*delightfulness* that ECD can be, especially to dancers of other forms (read: 
contra) who think ECD is impossibly uptight and boring?  I ask this question 
because I was one of those people for almost a decade!

I had been contradancing for a couple of years when I went to my first dance 
camp that featured ECD as part of the program.  I *HATED* it!  The teachers 
seemed stuffy and dull and boring, and the dances they chose absolutely did 
not seem worth the bother to learn.  My contra friends agreed, and they 
ascribed my feelings to ECD itself.  Naturally, I avoided ECD like the plague 
for a long time after that.  I continued on as a contra dancer and caller and 
choreographer and felt smug in my unabashed Colonialness, albeit ever a 
stickler for timing and smoothness.

Then, in early 1996, some of my favorite contra-dance partners (who also do 
ECD) urged me to give it another try.  So, I did: I attended the 1996 BACDS 
Fall Weekend at Monte Toyon, which featured Sue DuPre.  Wow!  Simply put, I 
had a conversion experience.  Suddenly, I found ECD to be tons of fun!  I 
live hours away from any regular ECD series, so I haven't been to many of 
these, but in the past few years, I have gone to numerous ECD-oriented camps 
and special events -- even gypsying all the way from CA to the '97 and '99 
Portland Balls.

Lest you think my conversion was simply a matter of personal timing, I must 
say this: since then, I have experienced more than one other teacher (I won't 
name names!) who would have done naught but confirm my distaste for ECD, had 
I not known better. There are plenty more who, while not quite so alienating, 
would not have inspired me to seek out additional ECD experiences the way Sue 
did.

So, what makes the difference?  I'm asking for specifics, not generalities.

I would like to introduce ECD to the contra community I call for in isolated 
Chico, CA, and I would like to know *how* I might  "convert" my many contra 
friends in various locales who think ECD is just awful.  Most of them have no 
trouble with timing and smoothness and things like giving weight, so it's not 
a matter of stereotypical Colonial roughness. Given my own varied 
experiences, I cannot dismiss their complaints out of hand.  Can anyone 
speculate as to what is going on here, and what might help bridge the rift 
between dancers of the two traditions?

Reine Wonite
Chico, CA



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From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
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Hi folks:

A joke: 

How many English Dancers does it take to change a light bulb?

Eight -- one to change the bulb, and seven to say, "*I* learned that 
differently."


My point? That one perception many teachers of ECD have given new dancers
is that the only thing that matters is to do it *right*, not to have fun. 
That's not the contra-dancer's ethos.

Another problem I've seen is that, when ECD groups attempt to do demos for
other groups, they tend to choose the most flowing, beautiful dances
rather than the more vigorous ones, leaving the impression that ECD is
prissy stuff for little old ladies who collect teacups. (Well, we *do*
like the flowing stuff, but we also like "Trip to Paris".) And the demos
themselves are, I think, a problem; contra dancers don't really like to
watch people dance. They like to dance. 

Last year at a (mostly contra) dance weekend, we got up an impromptu
English dance on the lawn -- participatory, not a demo, with a pickup band
composed of whatever musicians we could muster (a process one fiddler
likened to herding cats). No fancy dress. Caroline Fahrney (an experienced
and excellent contra caller) called the dances -- two vigorous, one
flowing -- and a great time was had by all. We got a new dancer or two,
but more important, we may have helped dispel years of bad PR. 

Peace.
Paul
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From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
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Subject: Re: Summary: Advice on Teaching Beginners
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Reine (Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com) wrote --

-------------------------------------------------
Now I would like to bring up a closely related issue: Exactly how can 
teachers convey to the uninitiated and highly skeptical the sublime 
*delightfulness* that ECD can be, especially to dancers of other forms (read: 
contra) who think ECD is impossibly uptight and boring?  I ask this question 
because I was one of those people for almost a decade!
-------------------------------------------------

That's a really hard one.  Teachers can readily turn people off to their
dance form just by doing a bad job.  So the teachers have to show that they 
enjoy it themselves; they have to avoid too high a ratio of teaching to
dancing; they have to select their programs to be fun and distinctive -
which is a challenge in itself, since you want to seem to be enough like
contra that those dancers can build on the skills they have, and enough
different so that it doesn't just seem like an inferior form of contra.
Teachers must be clear; must show that they respect the dancers' time; must
'earn' teaching time for harder dances by paying in advance with
quick-teach dances.  Teachers must also be clear on what errors are worth
correcting and when, and figure out how to correct them without making
people feel too singled out, and make individual decisions about whether to
go with ECD or contra terminology when they vary.  (I always say "star"
myself, not "hands across", but for a contra audience "handshake star" might 
be better.) And look like they're having fun doing it.

[Saying that you love this stuff doesn't help; your whole persona has to 
project it.  You also can't talk too much about posture, attitude, etc - 
you have to model it, and/or point out good examples.]


-------------------------------------------------
I would like to introduce ECD to the contra community I call for in isolated 
Chico, CA, and I would like to know *how* I might  "convert" my many contra 
friends in various locales who think ECD is just awful.  Most of them have no 
trouble with timing and smoothness and things like giving weight, so it's not 
a matter of stereotypical Colonial roughness. Given my own varied 
experiences, I cannot dismiss their complaints out of hand.  Can anyone 
speculate as to what is going on here, and what might help bridge the rift 
between dancers of the two traditions?
-------------------------------------------------

First off you'll have to accept that there are some people who you can 
never reach.  There are people who don't think it counts as dancing if they
didn't work up a major sweat, and those who don't enjoy a dance if they don't
get to hold a bunch of strangers in their arms.  (Or so I've been told by
people who claim to hold those opinions.)  There are others who hate to do
anything but walk, so a dance with skipping, step-hops, rants, etc, will
hold no pleasure for them.

I've been reading evaluations for Fall Weekend for ten years, and we often
draw non-ECDing contradancers, and end up finding out what they  think
about English dancing.  Every year there's at least one "I never  did
English before and it's just wonderful  - I don't know why everyone's been 
bad-mouthing it" and at least one "English is a waste of time", with
variations like "English is a great change of pace and breaks up the contra
monotony, but I wouldn't want to do it all the time  - how about replacing
it with swing next year?".

(And there are many people, incidentally, who don't think American squares
count as dancing either, and I don't know how you can convert them. When we
have a fabulous square caller at Fall Weekend, like Lisa Greenleaf last
year, we get divided evaluations - people who like squares or didn't have
an opinion will say the caller was wonderful, and other people will say
squares are a waste of time.  How would you convert them?)

That said, if I were trying to slip some English into a contra program, or
do an English program for experienced contra dancers, I'd first kibitz with
my musicians about what they feel comfortable playing, and choose my
program with that in mind.  Then I'd try to start with quick-teach longways
duple minors with easy geography and music in atypical meters - not jigs or
reels, but maybe waltz or polka or 3/2 or  2/2 time.  _Show_ (without
making  fuss of it) how you move differently to different music. One good
example - which went over well in Arcata, years ago -  is "Duke of Kent's
Waltz."  I'd try to include at least one aerobic trancing kind of dance,
even though there aren't that many in the repertoire - "Jack's Health",
probably, since "Female Saylor" has figure-eighting, which confuses some
contradancers, and "Collier's Daughter" requires skill and attention to do
well.

Remember to have playful and flirtatious in there; offer a little bit of
stepping; don't do odd-formation dances unless you've sussed out how to
teach them as quickly and clearly as possible.

Oh, and if you can find any local Scottish dancers to be shills, that'd
probably be good.  They'll get confused about poussettes, but they'll be
good on geography.

Good luck; let us know how it works out.

-- Alan (who should have left for morris practice already)



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

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From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
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Subject: Contra against ECD against Contra
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Reine Wonite's questions about teaching ECD to contra dancers is related to
a question that I've had for years.  *What*, in heaven's name, is the cause
of the hostility between contra dancers and English country dancers?

It's really one of the more notable characteristics of both communities.  I
don't know how many times I've heard ECDers dissing contra dancers, and vice
versa.  It isn't just that they don't like each other's dance form; the
hostility is really personal in the amount of stereotyping that goes on.
It's like listening to a couple of warring ethnic groups talk about each
other.

Of course, sometimes it's just funny.  One of my favorite stories from the
summer that three members of White Rat's Morris went to work kitchen crew at
Pinewoods concerns that very thing.  We had just attended our first evening
dance and had done ECD for the first time, and an experienced country dancer
walked up to Jane after a dance, looked her up and down, raised an eyebrow,
and said:

"Contra?"

"No," said Jane;  "morris."

"Oh," said the ECDer, and rolled her eyes as she walked away.

-- Marian Phillips

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Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:32:24 PST
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From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Marian Phillips wrote:

  Reine Wonite's questions about teaching ECD to contra dancers is related to
  a question that I've had for years.  *What*, in heaven's name, is the cause
  of the hostility between contra dancers and English country dancers?

  It's really one of the more notable characteristics of both communities.  I
  don't know how many times I've heard ECDers dissing contra dancers, and vice
  versa.  It isn't just that they don't like each other's dance form; the
  hostility is really personal in the amount of stereotyping that goes on.
  It's like listening to a couple of warring ethnic groups talk about each
  other.

[snip funny story]

I honestly don't know.  I enjoy both forms, although ECD speaks to me more,
and I'm generally considered a fairly good contradancer.  (My personal
circumstances mostly prevent my doing English or contra on weekends,
barring special events, and weekday English dances are much more accessible
to me than contras, so I did contras regularly from 85 to 92, and for the
last seven or eight years only do them at camps or special events, like the
No Snow Ball.)  

Stereotyping from experience at Fall Weekend and some other camps: 
Many English dancers would rather dance contra than not dance; many contra
dancers would rather not dance than dance English.  (Fall Weekend has
developed, finally, a community that largely likes to do both, so the hall
doesn't thin out during the English portion of the program, but even this
last year, with three-quarters of Bare Necessities plus Fred Nussbaum on
cello, playing superbly danceable music, there were two or three people 
who'd dance contra and sit out the English.

English dancers get taught to pay attention to timing and 
phrasing.  (There's also, around here anyway, some overlap with Scottish,
where they have serious classes and really get taught this stuff.) Contra
dancers mostly don't get taught that, although a lot of them figure it out.
English dancers get taught more about style, posture, and timing than
contra dancers do - although probably less than Scottish.

If people with their expectations set by the incidentals of one dance form
check out the other, they may be unhappy with the results and blame it on
the form.  I know an English dancer who went to his first contra dance and
decided that, if dancing was moving with the music, this wasn't even
dancing.  I know a contradancer who went to an English dance and complained
loudly that there was too much time spent teaching, although I noticed that
he still hadn't  gotten the sequence.  I know contradancers who really want
to turn off their brains and just trance out in a dance, a desire that's
supplied by a flowing contra, and that just doesn't work if somebody tries
to teach you "Joy After Sorrow."  I wouldn't be surprised if a
contradancer went to an English dance, got told to pay attention to
phrasing, or to being up on the balls on the feet, or to lead with the
chest, and felt singled out and picked on because nobody ever tells you to
do things differently at contra dances, and ever after talks about the
snooty and unfriendly English dancers.  (Well, it hasn't happened at any
of the ones I've been to in the Bay Area, although I'm sure there are
callers who manage to slip some style  into regular dances, not just
workshops.) 

None of which fully answers Marian's question. Maybe somebody else has a
better answer.

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:26:05 PST
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:25:54 -0500 (EST)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
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I think Alan makes several interesting observations: 

<<Many English dancers would rather dance contra than not dance; many contra 
dancers would rather not dance than dance English.>>

I'm stepping into sensitive territory here, I know (this IS the ECD list, 
right?) but I've noticed that, *IN GENERAL*, experienced English dancers are 
able to adapt their English dance style more successfully to contra than the 
other way around. This may be because it is more likely that English dancers 
started out doing contras. Especially, if one—like me, for example—started 
out as a teenager doing squares & contras; my MOTHER did English &, in spite 
of her having lured me to a May Day dance at Hunter College where May Gadd 
was leading, I sure wasn't about to do anything SHE did. Until later. So, 
even if one—again, like me—comes to prefer English, she doesn't necessarily 
lose her taste for contra. There are moments in contra that are amazing & 
quite different from amazing moments in English. It's like the differences 
among forms & periods of music.

Another good point Alan makes, is that "English dancers get taught to pay 
attention to timing and phrasing." That's probably why good English dancers 
are more fun to do contra with (assuming they *GET* the stylistic 
differences) than good contra dancers are to do English with.

I'll probably be embarrassed to read all this on my screen later. But it's 
always interesting to talk to you guys. (See many of you at the Flurry.)

Judy Grunberg



 
================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:46:31 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: NEFFA call for volunteers.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: Nancy Hanssen <neh-AT-
world.std.com>, Bob Solosko <solosko-AT-
lucent.com>, judy.schaffer-AT-
aspect.com
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Its none too early to remind you that the New England Folk Festival 
is coming around again, and will be needing sound people, setup 
people, strike people, and setup and strike lighting people, not to 
mention those myriad other jobs that I know little about, such as 
hospitality and tickets and safety and parking and so on.

If you are interested in non-technical jobs, contact Nancy Hanssen 
<neh-AT-
world.std.com>.  If you've worked for her before and you haven't 
moved, then I'm sure she'll be getting in touch with you soon; just 
contact her if you're new to all this.

*I*'m looking for people to do what is known in theatre as "tech". 
These jobs generally either require people to work *before* the 
festival, or to have some special knowledge or skill -- though maybe 
only a little bit.

This year things are a little different.  Because of the Easter 
holiday, the date was moved up a week, to be at the beginning of the 
break, rather than the end.  That means that our access to the school 
before the Festival is limited.  We will certainly be doing a lot 
more setup on Friday afternoon than is normal for us, and if things 
break poorly we will be doing all of it!  We don't really expect to 
have to do all of it Friday, but we may well be doing the proverbial 
lion's share.

The dates are April 14th, 15th, and 16th.  We expect some load-in and 
limited setup to take place Wednesday and Thursday the 12th and 13th, 
but the bulk of setup will take place Friday the 14th starting at 
3:00.

In particular, we will need people to assemble stages (using 
commercial rented platforms), hang acoustic curtains, hang lights (we 
*may* be able to do the lights earlier in the week, but don't know 
yet), focus lights (obviously I don't yet know when that will 
happen), hang non-acoustic curtains, move pianos, move  and setup 
tables, move and setup chairs, hang clocks, hang signs, move and 
setup sound equipment.

At the end of the festival, Sunday evening, we will need to reverse 
the process.  We always have trouble getting people to sign up for 
strike in advance, and frequently have a few people there till 9 or 
10 as a result; we particularly need people who can stay till 7 or 8 
-- if enough people stay till 8, no one will have to stay till 9. 
Strike generally requires little or no previous experience; an 
ability to follow directions is helpful, but just being able to carry 
things will still be helpful.

During the festival itself, we will need people to *run* sound 
equipment, just as in previous years.  This year our volunteer sound 
needs are:

engineer/stage managers: 8 channel systems (mostly Entertainers) in 
small concert venues.  Some sound experience needed; having a clue 
and taking one of our workshops is usually sufficient.  Ability to 
interact well with performers and audience is necessary.  Enjoying 
folk music and listening to it in general is helpful; tell us what 
your tastes in music are so we can find the right venue.

stage managers: control performers and assist engineers in larger 
dance venues. Some sound experience helpful but not required; having 
a clue and taking one of our workshops is definitely sufficient. 
Ability to interact well with performers, and engineers is CRUCIAL.

We particularly need stage managers who are also dancers; its helpful 
to our engineers to get advice from someone who can evaluate the 
music from the point of view of a dancer.  It may sound fine to the 
engineer, where a dancer would say "not enough violin" or "the 
rhythm's muddy" or "I can hear the caller, but I can't understand her 
easily".

We will shortly be sending out a packet with the program, a volunteer 
form, etc., to anyone who is already on our list, so if you helped 
last year you'll get one, but it wouldn't hurt to send us your 
address again just to make sure, or if you want to get added to the 
list, or if you've moved.

If you want to volunteer to do sound or lighting or setup or strike, 
send this info to judy.schaffer-AT-
aspect.com, who is my volunteer 
coordinator this year.  Please include snailmail address, preferred 
email address, phone number, and fax if appropriate.

I know postings to this list go all over the place; people come to 
the Festival from all over the place.  If you haven't been before, 
maybe this is your year?

In the meantime, you might check out the NEFFA web site, which will 
have information about past festivals and this year's programming 
information as soon as its released.  www.neffa.org/~neffa

Thanks!
--Mike Bergman

"Of course he has a website.  We *all* have websites.  It's the eve 
of the 21st  century, and we're all barbarians!" 
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:55:30 -0600
From: Larry Stout <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
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I think a lot of the preferences of dances derive from what they are
used to and what dance communities are like near them.  Some of this
will be historical accident.

My great grandparents danced and played for some form of traditional
squares.  My paternal grandfather earned part of the money to attend
Purdue in the teen's by playing for such dances.  My maternal
grandparents did ECD in a neighbor's livingroom in the 30's.  My parents
did square dancing in the 50's.  I started dancing in a group that did
ECD, Scottish and Danish in the 60's then branched out to international
folk dance in the 70's.  Contra only reached the midwest in about 1980. 
My older son prefers contra, rapper, and morris.  The younger son
prefers swing.  It all depends on what is available and what catches the
mood of the individual.  

Most dances locally aren't all that local.  I'll drive 100 miles to do
ECD, but only occationally will I drive that far for contra.  Closer
dances are usually "community" and family oriented dances with a mix of
traditional squares and easy contras.  There is also occationally
clogging at these events. 

There are significant differences in musical style that make transitions
between the different genres difficult for some dancers.  At least in
the midwest the music for contra is likely to be Old Timey, almost
exclusively reels usually danced at a metronone setting of about 125. 
Squares will be danced to a faster beat with much less phrase marking. 
ECD tunes for longways dances are often jigs, minuets, old style
hornpipes, or waltzes.  In ECD much of the movement is tied to
particular phrases in the music.  Learning what to listen for and what
to ignore is one of the challenges for a dancer changing styles. 
Playing for different styles so that these aspects are properly
accentuated also takes adjustment:  good contra musicians are often
awful at ECD, and good ECD musicians are not particularly good prospects
for a square dance.

I have most fun as a dancer at weeks where there is a variety of kinds
of dancing-- a healthy dose of ECD, some contra, Scottish, squares,
morris, rapper, Scandanavian,... The ECD often leaves an accent in the
contra--a group who have been doing ECD will be much less likely to add
hot shot twirls and solo dancing which goes across the phrase and more
likely to flirt using eye contact than a group which has been doing
exclusively hot contras will.  Scottish will show up in the bearing of
the dancers in other genres.  

ECD and Scottish dances tend to have a fixed length which is much
shorter than the average contra or square.  This leads to the perception
of more teaching to dancing in these forms.  On the other hand, I find
most contras fairly indistinguishable after a while.  They are easy to
remember through many repetitions of the dance so you can sort of turn
off your mind and go with the flow.  My favorite kinds of EC dances
require that you keep thinking because they change more.

I personally find that the attempt to attract contra dancers to ECD by
using the dances which are similar (ancestral?) to contra (duple minor
longways for as many as will, preferably in some form of quick time) may
lead contra dancers to think of ECD as just a stuffy form of contra. 
I'd suggest using dances which are more distinctive.

Our local dance community has many dancers who do ECD, clogging, contra,
square, SCA style rennaisance dance, international, and swing.  There is
a lot of cross over between the groups and there are also a lot of
dancers who strongly prefer one style over another.  Diversity is very
enriching.
-- 
Lawrence Neff Stout
Professor of Mathematics
Illinois Wesleyan University
http://www.iwu.edu/~lstout

"Fiddling is a viol habit."  Anon?
"Dancing is necessary in a well ordered society." Thoinot Arbeau
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:41:30 PST
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:42:22 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
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The whole thing about this problem is sad, that's for sure.  Where would
modern contra dancing be if Dudley Laufman hadn't gone to Pinewoods and
watched all those heys?

But, to add fuel to the fire, I can tell you all the reasons I no longer
find contra dancing interesting:

It's all the same: all improper, all longways, all single progression, all
the same tempo.  For three hours?

There is no longer any consensus on when to begin a figure, so some dancers
start after the downbeat and some start on it and some start before it.

Any jig or reel will do and they come in only 2-beat units.

Half the dancers do walk-around swings, which might have the capacity to be
fast but mostly never achieve that.  And, to make matters worse, callers
actually teach walk-around swings as correct!

Many bands no longer improvise, just switch tunes when they've done some
number of repetitions.

Squares have nearly totally died out, and when one does get one, the best a
caller can do nowadays is a singing square, which is, in my opinion, poorly
designed from the get-go because the calls come after the time you need the
information.

And finally, no dancer ever knows the name of the dance or tune, because
there's no emphasis on actually getting beyond: "listen to instructions
while doing walkthrough,  dance, erase.  Repeat."

If you consider the assumptions that contra dancers make - that they are
going out for an evening of continuous movement with continuous variety, in
which it is not necessary to remember anything longer than 10 minutes at
most - to the assumptions that English dancers make - that they are going
out for an evening of dance where they can practice the art of listening to
varied music and matching their movements to the spirit of that, the art of
noticing what other people on the floor are doing and matching their
spirits to the whole range of that, the art of learning a repertoire of
material so that they are free from words and can connect around the room
to the music and other dancers - then I find it easy to understand why
contra dancers have trouble with English dance.

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:36:26 PST
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:35:09 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/16/0 1:27:08 PM, you wrote:

<<good English dancers 

are more fun to do contra with (assuming they *GET* the stylistic 

differences) than good contra dancers are to do English with.>>

I like nothing (in dancing) more than doing ECD with good contra dancers. 
Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:09:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:11:13 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: School project
To: English Article <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <00b801bf78c2$a499e1c0$8df7490c-AT-
pavilion>
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I have agreed this Saturday to participate in a cultural appreciation day
featuring the British Isles (Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England) for a nearby
elementary school (kindergarten through 5th grade - ages about 4 to 11) to
give them info on dance - anyone who has done this sort of thing before - if
you have any suggestions or advice, let me know.

Also, for those on this list who live in the UK if you have the time to send
me an email on any aspect of life there that I can print out and take along,
that would be appreciated - - they're interested in history, customs, art,
religion, daily life, slang expressions, dance, music - almost anything at
all.

Thanks,
Dianna

Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
Scottish Country Dancing and More:
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212


Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
Scottish Country Dancing and More:
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:45:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:05:02 -0500
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: School project
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000216.170517.-472963.2.AllisonThompson-AT-
juno.com>
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There's a nice childrens' web site, which I think is called "Conkers"
which includes lots of fun stuff on customs...sorry I don't have a more
accurate site & hope you can find it.

Allison
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:49:44 PST
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:49:40 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: School project
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Dianna Shipman writes:
> 
> I have agreed this Saturday to participate in a cultural appreciation day
> featuring the British Isles (Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England) for a nearby
> elementary school (kindergarten through 5th grade - ages about 4 to 11) to
> give them info on dance - anyone who has done this sort of thing before - if
> you have any suggestions or advice, let me know.

    When doing dances with kids I like to use easy whole-set longways
dances such as Galopede and Cumberland Reel.  Others may suggest other
possibilities.  Dances where you don't have to worry about the girls and
boys lines.  Just have them get a friend as a partner and line up across
from them.  Having the progression be, top couple goes to the bottom and
everyone moves up a place works out very well.

Jonathan

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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
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Archive-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:10:23 PST
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:10:14 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Contra against ECD against Contra
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SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/16/00 2:00:10 AM, you wrote:

<<It's like listening to a couple of warring ethnic groups talk about each

other.>>

I think this may be the key. Have you ever noticed that some of the biggest 
and longest-lasting battles in history are between groups with nearly 
everything in common, save for perhaps one or two little differences? From my 
point of view, the ongoing feud in Northern Ireland is absolutely incredible. 
How about the Serbs and the Albanians And just try telling a Hutu from a 
Tutsi. I think it's inherent in the human species to ignore the 99.99% of 
what we have in common and fight to the death over the other 0.001%. 

If you think about the common interests of ECDers and contra dancers, 
especially vs that of the other 99+% of the population, you'd think we'd all 
get along better. Come to think of it, let's try.

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:02:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:38:59 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <tmonsont-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: School project
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000801bf7936$aa58bb80$018701d4-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <00b801bf78c2$a499e1c0$8df7490c-AT-
pavilion>

Dianna,

"Cumberland Square Eight" sounds an ideal dance to use also - a square
so they know their boundaries, couple working with opposite couple until
the last figure when the whole set works together, sides repeat heads
move gives repetition, simple but enjoyable moves for children
(gallop,star,basket,circle) and on top of all that the music is perfect
for the dance.

I normally use this as a starting dance when children are around - as it
also gets them dancing in time with the phrasing - but sometimes they do
try to do everything in half the time available, so as long as you are
aware of this it can easily be corrected early on.

As far as "aspects of life" - that title is even too broad for me to
think of suitable anecdotes (I always was useless at essays at school).
However, if you would like to send me some questions (off list maybe?) I
will try and give you some brief answers (brief because I can't type
that fast).

To give you a clue I'm a Yorkshireman who lived in Wales for a while,
has a wife who thinks she is a Scot, and enjoy English, Welsh, Irish and
Scottish dancing  (and squares and contras so as to not upset the other
thread - but they tend to get mixed in with English dances over here).

Trevor Monson.



----- Original Message -----
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
To: English Article <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 9:11 PM
Subject: School project


> I have agreed this Saturday to participate in a cultural appreciation
day
> featuring the British Isles (Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England) for a
nearby
> elementary school (kindergarten through 5th grade - ages about 4 to
11) to
> give them info on dance - anyone who has done this sort of thing
before - if
> you have any suggestions or advice, let me know.
>
> Also, for those on this list who live in the UK if you have the time
to send
> me an email on any aspect of life there that I can print out and take
along,
> that would be appreciated - - they're interested in history, customs,
art,
> religion, daily life, slang expressions, dance, music - almost
anything at
> all.
>
> Thanks,
> Dianna
>
> Dianna L. Shipman
> diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
> PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
> Houston, TX 77019-4946
> Scottish Country Dancing and More:
> web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
> phone: 713-522-1212
>
>
> Dianna L. Shipman
> diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
> PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
> Houston, TX 77019-4946
> Scottish Country Dancing and More:
> web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
> phone: 713-522-1212
>



__________________________________________________

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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.

http://im.yahoo.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:20:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:21:48 -0800
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <200002171619.IAA20384-AT-
mail.eskimo.com>
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Some of the posts in this thread have been fairly rude about contra 
dancers so I figured it's about time I redressed the balance and 
was rude about some English dancers. In fact, I'm going to be 
more specific than that and be rude about American English 
dancers just to really try and upset people :-)

Disclaimer - most of what I'm going to write is generalisations, I 
know there are dancers (some of whom are on this list) who do not 
fit the descriptions I am going to give, however I would hazard a 
guess that they are in the minority.

One of the contra / ECD issues that I see in the US is that contra 
dancers have a biased view of what English dance is all about, and 
one of the reasons for that is that many English dancers in the US 
have a biased view of what English dance is all about.

In my experience, English dance in the US means "dances from 
the 17th and 18th century or dances written in that style", with an 
exception made for a couple of modern composers. I was at an 
English workshop at NEFFA a few years ago when the caller did a 
dance with a swing in it. The comment from one person in my set 
was "I thought this was an English session". At Pinewoods English 
week last year I was told very firmly that right and left through was 
an American contra move. Strangely enough, no one objected 
when Gene Murrow called "Levi Jackson's Rag" later on in the 
week...

The feeling I get in the US is that there is a definite move to keep 
the ECD and contra dancing experiences very different - hence the 
tendency for dreamy triple time ECD which I commented on after 
Pinewoods last year, and the lack of the more energetic traditional 
or ceilidh dances (I know there are callers and groups who do rants 
and hornpipes, but like I said, I think they're in a minority).

But all of this wouldn't matter if people would take a slightly less 
judgemental view of things. What surprises me is not the fact that 
some people prefer one dance form to another but the lack of 
acceptance of the fact that another dance form exists, it isn't to my 
taste but it obviously is to someone else's taste.

Carl Friedman is right, the common interests outweigh everything 
else. Enjoy whatever you do but don't judge what anyone else 
chooses to do.

To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She 
watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the 
contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look 
smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.

I think I've offended enough people for today.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:47:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:47:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
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In a message dated 2/17/2000 8:20:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk writes:

> To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She 
>  watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the 
>  contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look 
>  smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.

Very interesting!

Most of my favorite ECD partners are ritual dancers as well, perhaps because 
they seem to have a more upbeat, playful (and perhaps even mischievous) tenor 
to their styling -- while being as well-timed and smooth as anyone.

What struck me about my initiation with Sue DuPre (are you reading this, 
Sue?) was her demeanor.  Words like "fresh" (think the air after a spring 
rain) and "effervescent" (not to be confused with bubbly -- more like bubbles 
in a pool below a waterfall) come to mind.  She made it sound like ECD was 
SUCH FUN!  And it was!  And it IS!  But I have noticed some teachers and 
dancers seem to take themselves a mite too seriously.  They get snippy if one 
makes an error - particularly if they don't know the offending dancer.

Ah, but what exactly did you *say* to us, Sue?

Wishing she'd known Sue will be on staff at Mendocino this year before she'd 
planned her sabbatical,

Reine Wonite
Currently of Chico, CA -- soon to become a high-tech vagabond
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:05:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:06:36 +0000
From: Dr Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <EXECMAIL.1000217180636.D-AT-
sixup.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <200002171619.IAA20384-AT-
mail.eskimo.com>

The strange thing is that in England the majority of dance clubs don't 
dance exclusively "English" dances.  There may be a few who specialise 
in Playford, but on the whole there is quite a varied programme - which
means that a lot of dancers come into contact with Contra, Square etc 
in the normal course of events.
Over here there is probably a similar split between Ceilidh-goers and 
dance-for-dancers people.  They are different energy levels, different 
complexity to the dances, normally polarised by age, but with the 
common theme of movement to music.  The callers tend to develop a 
repertoire that spans all the different fields, although some will 
specialise.  Bill Kinsman, John Chapman, and Joe Hodgson are 3 names 
that spring to mind as probably giving more of an American feel to an 
evening - but who are equally capable if asked to call exclusively 
"Playford"

I'd rather dance than not, so it doesn't matter what "style" the dance 
falls into. It's a shame at times that people have preconceived notions

Paul


-------------------
Dr Paul Davis
paul.davis-AT-
oucs.ox.ac.uk
01865 283414

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:11:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:19:10 -0500
From: Loretta Holz <loretta-AT-
varisys.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <013b01bf7973$7caa51c0$176cd626-AT-
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I'm looking for ECDs which would appeal to contra dancers since I will be
calling an ECD afternoon session which is followed by an evening of contra.

I found Alan Winston's comments on this very helpful but encourage everyone to
reply.  Do you have any suggestions on specific dances and/or general comments
to help me pick dances which will work well and will give contra dances a good
feeling about ECD.
.
Some of the dances I had in mind were Levi Jackson Rag (with its contra like
moves), Mad Robin (since some contra dances have incorporated the distinctive
Mad Robin chase), Trip to Tunbridge, Smithy Hill. and Knole Park.

Alan said:
>a lot of modern contra has ceaseless
>driving flow, and some English dances have that feel, but mostly for the ones:
>Jack's Health (to "Bolt the Door"; the original tune is kind of wimpy),
>The Collier's Daughter (although the timing on the circular hey is so tight
>that I wouldn't recommend as the only taste of English a contra crowd gets),
>or Female Saylor (which has two hand turns with neighbor and partner, and might
>be a good choice here).
>
>There are English dances with swings, but most of the ones in the literature
>I've seen tend to be CDM bouncy things, which are improved by stepping but are
>in any case not smooth and flowy.
>
>As somebody said when I was asking for advice on this topic myself (look in the
>archive with "contra" in the subject line), be careful not to choose stuff that
>makes English look like contra but not as much fun.
>
>I'll go out on a limb and suggest Mad Robin, which is fairly even, fairly easy,
>quite different from modern contras and yet very flirtatious, and shouldn't
>make anybody's head explode.  This assumes that you've got musicians who can
>play it.  (The tune isn't hard, but I don't think it will survive boom-chuck
>accompaniment.)
>-- Alan




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:18:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:16:48 -0800
From: Michael Richardson <mrich-AT-
u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Contradancers=hulking troglodytes; ECDancers=higher life forms; was Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210101b4d1dd421b23-AT-
[128.95.91.179]>
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:42:22, Emily L. Ferguson said:

>It's all the same: all improper, all longways, all single progression, all
>the same tempo.  For three hours?

Hiya Emily,

There are, lamentably, all too many callers who put a whole evening 
together exactly as you put it above.  My mental image for this kind 
of evening is a loaf of Wonder Bread, where every slice looks and 
tastes just the same.  Gaackk....

A caller does have to pander to the taste of the masses to a certain 
extent.  ECDancers are no different -- they also want a loaf of bread 
- slices may vary within the loaf but those same slices had better by 
god turn up again and again in the next loaf.  While they are 
generally open to different formations and meters of music, they are 
(in my experience) quite intolerant to unfamiliar dances.  The 
average contradancer can dance a whole evening of totally new dances 
and have a great time (and never even notice that they are new).  The 
average ECDancer (in my experience) begins to rebel if they don't 
recognize at least half of the dances.

I am a big fan of variety.  When I call a contradance evening, 
contras constitute about 2/3 of the dances -- that's what the people 
expect.  However, but I liberally season the mixture with squares, 
circles, Sicilian circles, and other formations.

>Any jig or reel will do and they come in only 2-beat units.

Oho, you've never done a contra to a slip jig?  There are a few 
around (Fan in the Doorway  by Gene Hubert is probably the best of 
them), and they are quite swell.  It is admittedly a reach to get 
some bands to play a 2 or 3 part slip jig, then to play slip jig 
potatoes, and then to find a caller who isn't afraid to call in a new 
rhythm.  When you can, though, it's quite wonderful.

>Half the dancers do walk-around swings, which might have the capacity to be
>fast but mostly never achieve that.  And, to make matters worse, callers
>actually teach walk-around swings as correct!

I am one of those callers who believe that it is correct -- a buzz 
step is merely a stylistic variation, in my opinion.  However, we may 
choose to agree to disagree on this one.

>Many bands no longer improvise, just switch tunes when they've done some
>number of repetitions.

Depends on the band -- some yes, some no.  However, your same comment 
applies just as well to ECD bands, if not more so.

>Squares have nearly totally died out, and when one does get one, the best a
>caller can do nowadays is a singing square, which is, in my opinion, poorly
>designed from the get-go because the calls come after the time you need the
>information.

Maybe this is true in your area -- if so, my condolences.  Southern 
squares are quite healthy in Seattle, and very much so in the 
Midwest.  There are also some great southern square callers in your 
greater neighborhood -- Lisa Greenleaf, Tony Parkes and Steve 
Zakon-Anderson come to mind.

>And finally, no dancer ever knows the name of the dance or tune, because
>there's no emphasis on actually getting beyond: "listen to instructions
>while doing walkthrough,  dance, erase.  Repeat."

Again, maybe this is true in your area.  It depends on the dancer -- 
some yes, some no.  Your comment certainly applies to many ECDancers, 
particularly the 1 - 2 year newcomers.

>If you consider the assumptions that contra dancers make - that they are
>going out for an evening of continuous movement with continuous variety, in
>which it is not necessary to remember anything longer than 10 minutes at
>most - to the assumptions that English dancers make - that they are going
>out for an evening of dance where they can practice the art of listening to
>varied music and matching their movements to the spirit of that, the art of
>noticing what other people on the floor are doing and matching their
>spirits to the whole range of that, the art of learning a repertoire of
>material so that they are free from words and can connect around the room
>to the music and other dancers - then I find it easy to understand why
>contra dancers have trouble with English dance.

I don't believe that the two groups are that dissimilar, or that they 
fall so neatly into the two categories you have listed above.  In my 
opinion, both groups go dancing to have fun, and trust the caller to 
make that happen.  Both groups do have certain expectations about the 
type of dances to be done evening, but will give you a bit of slack 
in your programming, as long as enough of their expectations are met.

In my area, which I define as the greater Left Coast, both groups of 
dancers respond acutely to the music and dance the same dance quite 
differently with a different tune.  Both groups are willing to put up 
with a certain amount of didactics, but both groups want to spend 
most of the evening dancing and moving to the music.  In my area, 
each sentence of  your paragraph above applies equally well to both 
types of dancer, in my opinion.

What is the big difference between the two dance styles?  In my 
opinion, it's the balance and swing.  I'm strongly suspect that if 
one added a B&S to many ECDances and called them at a contra evening, 
most dancers would be oblivious.  If you took the B&S out of a lot of 
contras and called them at an ECD evening to vaguely Englishy 
sounding tunes (whatever that means :-)), many ECDancers would never 
know.

Cheers,

Mike Richardson
Seattle, WA
Upper North Left Coast

Cheers,

Mike
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:58:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:58:15 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/17/0 6:16:15 PM, you wrote:

<<I'm looking for ECDs which would appeal to contra dancers since I will be

calling an ECD afternoon session which is followed by an evening of contra.>>

My list would include Dublin Bay, Jack's Health, Faithless Nancy Dawson, and 
Trip to Paris.
My criteria for appeal to contra dancers are: lively dance to a lively tune, 
and quick teaching (avoid set dances, no matter how wonderful). 

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:55:25 PST
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:55:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Bob Archer writes: 
	.
	.
	.
> In my experience, English dance in the US means "dances from 
> the 17th and 18th century or dances written in that style", with an 
> exception made for a couple of modern composers. 

I think that's a pretty good description of views here; however, I know a
fair number of folks here who also include the "traditional" dances and
their descendants.  However, very few of us are up-to-date on current
activity in the UK on modern "traditional style" dances -- we know Clopton
Bridge and The Fast Packet and a few others, but are unfamiliar with many
that are currently popular in the UK.

I was at an 
> English workshop at NEFFA a few years ago when the caller did a 
> dance with a swing in it. The comment from one person in my set 
> was "I thought this was an English session".

The other side of that is that in many places here, you'll have many
grousing at a contradance that doesn't have _two_ swings at least, and
open rebellion if there isn't any swing, or if the caller tries to do
squares.  

> The feeling I get in the US is that there is a definite move to keep 
> the ECD and contra dancing experiences very different 

I'd agree with that (see more comments below).

- hence the 
> tendency for dreamy triple time ECD which I commented on after 
> Pinewoods last year, and the lack of the more energetic traditional 
> or ceilidh dances (I know there are callers and groups who do rants 
> and hornpipes, but like I said, I think they're in a minority).

I think there is a distinct effort to keep them distinct.  Because dances
with swings are well represented here (because of the local contradance
activity), and because I enjoy a range of variety that ECD offers me that
contra doesn't in set configuration, tune length and meter, and overall
mood, I tend to select dances from the ECD repertoire which which balance
the emphasis on swinging that contradance offers, since most of the
English dancers also go to contras with some regularity. 

I don't avoid English dances with swings in them, but I do want them to be
as interesting in other respects as the other dances I'm likely to choose,
and in this context a swing is just another figure, not an obligatory one.
I don't want to attract contradancers to ECD just as another place to
swing when there isn't a better opportunity around for them, I want to
attract them because it can be fun even if it doesn't center around
swinging -- it can still take advantage of the many common features that
ECD and contra share.  

I don't focus on the smooth, dreamy side, either; we do our share of them,
but well mixed with dances that move rapidly.  With more variety in the
figures than offered by most contras, and with many tempos equally brisk
or sometimes brisker, contradancers find they can get as much exercise at
ECD as they do at a contra -- and they're ready for the slower dances when
they come.

But they're not all looking for challenging dances.  For some, relaxing
means turning the brain off and being able to do the recreational activity
on autopilot.  That's OK -- I don't mean this in a negative way; sometimes
I like to do that.

But another way to relax is to give your brain a job that is so different
from what it has been doing the rest of the day that it is forced to
discard all of your previous cares because you are drawn into something
else which is completely absorbing.  It's like the relaxation some get
from fishing -- you can sit there with the line in the water and not pay
any attention, and a few hours later pull up the hook and you don't even
have to remove the bait because that's already been done for you long ago,
ore you can actively use all of your skill to find and entice the fish and
drop a fly onto the surface just in the right spot, with the fly striking
before the line so that the fish doesn't suspect...  

Sometimes you want one thing, sometimes you want the other.  But it's nice
to have the choice!  I think that's why we try to keep them distinct.  

> But all of this wouldn't matter if people would take a slightly les 
> judgemental view of things. What surprises me is not the fact that 
> some people prefer one dance form to another but the lack of 
> acceptance of the fact that another dance form exists, it isn't to my 
> taste but it obviously is to someone else's taste.

Hear, hear!

Eric Arnold

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:14:56 PST
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:14:51 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Loretta Holz writes:
> 
> I'm looking for ECDs which would appeal to contra dancers since I will be
> calling an ECD afternoon session which is followed by an evening of contra.
> 
> I found Alan Winston's comments on this very helpful but encourage everyone to
> reply.  Do you have any suggestions on specific dances and/or general comments
> to help me pick dances which will work well and will give contra dances a good
> feeling about ECD.
> .
> Some of the dances I had in mind were Levi Jackson Rag (with its contra like
> moves), Mad Robin (since some contra dances have incorporated the distinctive
> Mad Robin chase), Trip to Tunbridge, Smithy Hill. and Knole Park.

   You might also do some traditional contras or other early American dances
that don't get done at contra dances anymore.  Proper and/or triple minor
dances such as Chorus Jig, Rory O'More, Hull's Victory, Sackett's Harbor,
Money In Both Pockets, Successful Campaign, Young Widow, etc.  These are
very rarely done at our local contra dance, but we're doing several of them
this weekend at our English dance.  It's our annual George Washington's
birthday dance.

   Our ECD group does a lot of Playford dances, but we also do quite a few
from the Community Dances Manual and from other traditions, such as Danish
dances like The Hatter.

   I've also seen Cumberland Square 8 done with good effect at a contra
dance.

Jonathan

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Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:27:27 PST
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Jonathan Sivier wrote:

     You might also do some traditional contras or other early American dances
  that don't get done at contra dances anymore.  Proper and/or triple minor
  dances such as Chorus Jig, Rory O'More, Hull's Victory, Sackett's Harbor,
  Money In Both Pockets, Successful Campaign, Young Widow, etc.  These are
  very rarely done at our local contra dance, but we're doing several of them
  this weekend at our English dance.  It's our annual George Washington's
  birthday dance.

This may be a fine idea, but I'd add that it definitely requires sorting
out with the band first.  In some cases, the distinctive flavor of the
dance will be lost if the play the tune like a contra tune.  ("Money in
Both Pockets," which one finds in the Portland collection _as a contra
tune_ needs to be somewhat slower than they play contras around here,
anyway; set the tempo so that the setting steps in the A part are
satisfying and not rushed, and get some lift in the B part as well.)  

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:58:53 PST
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:09:26 -0500
From: Don Bell <dbell1-AT-
nycap.rr.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Fenterlarick, Jack's Health and Dublin Bay have appeal for many contra dancers.

Don

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 03:30:29 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:33:03 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Article: John Playford's The English Dancing Master 1650/51 as cultural politics
To: ECD discussion list <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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I wanted to point out that the most recent issue of English Dance and
Song, i.e. 7:5(1999), contains an article on the origins of The English
Dacing Master. The article was written by Keith Whitlock (Open
University, London).

It mainly explores four issues:
- Playford's royalist convictions;
- the immediate sources of the dances;
- the foreword 'To the ingeniuous reader';
- inclusion of certain dances and the use of certain titles.

I found it makes interesting reading.

Philippe Callens
Antwerp, Belgium

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:49:51 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:50:05 -0500
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mad Robin
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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A small point re Mad Robin -- not that this list avoids small points --
when each couple does their parallel pass and loop thru the other
couple, ending with the two hands round with their partner, I notice 
that the woman's part is simple, because she feeds smoothly into 
that final move, but the man must undergo an awkward change of 
direction.  My own solution (trying not to feel too flushed and happy 
while I do it) is to turn single to the right to more gracefully enter
into
the two hands around with my partner.  Opinions?


+++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
+++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, and 
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 FAX 1-917-677-5414 (NYC area code); Urgent message?  Please phone.
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Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:59:08 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:57:27 -0500
From: pam-AT-
tedcrane.com (Pamela Goddard)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mad Robin
To: solweber-AT-
juno.com, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <00021810572783-AT-
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Here's a completely non-authoritarian opinion...
_Especially_ in this dance, what ever feels good - do it!
(And if it gets you there more smoothly, all the better)

-Pamela in Ithaca
(getting ready to brave the roads on my way to the Dance Flurry)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:58:17 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:51:33 -0700
From: William DeRagon <wderagon-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:19:10 -0500 Loretta Holz <loretta-AT-
varisys.com>
writes:
> I'm looking for ECDs which would appeal to contra dancers since I will
be
> calling an ECD afternoon session which is followed by an evening of
contra.

English dances that I have found to be successful with a primarily contra
crowd include:

  - Take A Dance -- a good opener; simple line, elegant flow.
  - Comical Fellow -- skipping back up the hall is absolutely necessary
to be on time and therefore seems to be easily accepted.
  - Mad Robin
  - Jack's Maggot
  - Nottingham Swing
  - Well Hall -- an accessible triple time dance.
  - The Black Nag
  - The Chocolate Round O (Fried Herman)
  - Nonesuch -- always a gas.
  - The Lover's Knot - a wonderful ECD/contra crossover dance by Jim
Kitch.
      (So good you can't tell from which direction it's crossing over!)
  - Drops of Brandy
  - Virginia Reel / Sir Roger de Coverly
  - Duke of Kent's Waltz
  - Margaret's Waltz (Pat Shaw)
  - Elizabeth (Colin Hume) -- you can simplify the final
'double-half-figure-8' figure if that would be pushing the dancer's skill
or concentration level at the moment.

In addition to ECD workshops for beginners, I find these dances useful
for incorporation into a 'regular' contra program.  Although my first
love is ECD, the majority of my calling jobs are for contra.  Over the
past 5 years I have regularly included at least one ECD-oid dance into a
standard contra evening program.  The waltz-time dances are especially
successful since the meter is familiar to most contra dancers and the
band will likely have a 32-bar waltz which is adaptable.  On many
occasions I have found that a waltz-time country dance in the second half
of a contra program transforms exuberance to elegance and revitalizes the
dancers.

William DeRagon
Albuquerque
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:22:31 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:22:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: walking swings
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Well, I thought I'd just lurk on the ECD list, but I disagree with the slur 
expressed by someone against "walking swings" (in the middle of the ECD vs 
Contra clash of the titans thread).

Personally, I started consciously to do that kind of walking swing, to slow 
things down, once at Pinewoods when I'd hurt my ankle. Nowadays I insist on 
doing this especially with newer dancers. I always say to them, as they go 
through various bizarre hopping and sidling maneuvers, "just walk, that's 
fine." And it works. I gather this method is too slow for some. Tough. (Or, 
"Too damned bad.")

Steve Corrsin

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Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:28:06 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:27:41 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/18/0 4:59:56 PM, you wrote:

<<English dances that I have found to be successful with a primarily contra
crowd include:

  - Take A Dance -- a good opener; simple line, elegant flow.
  - Comical Fellow -- skipping back up the hall is absolutely necessary
to be on time and therefore seems to be easily accepted.
  - Mad Robin
  - Jack's Maggot
  - Nottingham Swing
  - Well Hall -- an accessible triple time dance.
  - The Black Nag
  - The Chocolate Round O (Fried Herman)
  - Nonesuch -- always a gas.
  - The Lover's Knot - a wonderful ECD/contra crossover dance by Jim
Kitch.
      (So good you can't tell from which direction it's crossing over!)
  - Drops of Brandy
  - Virginia Reel / Sir Roger de Coverly
  - Duke of Kent's Waltz
  - Margaret's Waltz (Pat Shaw)
  - Elizabeth (Colin Hume) -- you can simplify the final
'double-half-figure-8' figure if that would be pushing the dancer's skill
or concentration level at the moment.

William DeRagon
Albuquerque>>

Not to be argumentative (especially after previous comments re ECD vs contra) 
but the Albuquerque contra crowd must be very different from the 
Baltimore-Washington crowd if the above dances would go over well with them. 
Not that most of them aren't wonderful dances, but, as examples, B'more 
contra dancers would not tolerate the length of walk-throughs necessary for 
Black Nag or Nonesuch, would think Margaret's Waltz and Well Hall too prissy, 
Elizabeth both too hard and too prissy, and Nottingham Swing silly - note 
that these are some of my very favorite dances. They would also detest Duke 
of Kent and Chocolate Round O (the latter having no redeeming social 
importance IMHO), laugh at Comical Fellow, and openly rebel against Sir Roger 
de Coverly. 
Come to think of it, it's quite hard to come up with much of a list of EC 
dances that would appeal to the contra dancers in this area. :( 

Carl Friedman 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:33:12 PST
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:32:59 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  walking swings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/18/0 7:25:02 PM, you wrote:

<<...I started consciously to do that kind of walking swing, to slow 
things down.... I gather this method is too slow for some...
Steve Corrsin>>

Interesting. I think the best place for a walking step swing is in 
southern-style square dances when the music is too fast to do a comfortable 
buzz step. The only problem I see with doing a walking step swing during a 
contra is that it doesn't feel right when the other person is doing a buzz 
step. Since the buzz step can be taught to nearly anyone in about 30 seconds, 
and since it is the norm for contra dancing in most locations that I know of 
in the US, why not just do it?

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:34:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:34:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Tonight's New Haven Dance Cancelled
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000218193428.2549.qmail-AT-
web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
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I know this will be a big disappointment to those of you on the West
Coast who were planning on grabbing a quick flight out here for the
local New Haven dance tonight, but it's snowin' like the dickens out
here right now.  The Neighborhood Music School is closed and the
dance ain't happening.  If anyone on this list knows people not on
the list who would have been planning on coming, would you please
pass the word on.
Many thanks.

=====
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Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:44:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mad Robin
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Sol Weber wrote:

  A small point re Mad Robin -- not that this list avoids small points --
  when each couple does their parallel pass and loop thru the other
  couple, ending with the two hands round with their partner, I notice 
  that the woman's part is simple, because she feeds smoothly into 
  that final move, but the man must undergo an awkward change of 
  direction.  My own solution (trying not to feel too flushed and happy 
  while I do it) is to turn single to the right to more gracefully enter
  into the two hands around with my partner.  Opinions?

I wonder whether "flushed and happy" will become our synonym for the 
British media "tired and emotional" (= "visibly drunk.")  Anyway, I 
echo Pam Goddard's response - in Mad Robin, if it feels good and doesn't 
frighten the horses, do it.  By the third or fourth time through Mad Robin,
I've probably followed my partner back down her side of the set and started
the two hand turn improper at least once.  (Not if she's new, or doesn't
seem playful, and not if the other couple look like they might already be
confused - that's what I mean by frightening the horses.)

In my head, at least this brings up another couple of topics, not unrelated
to other discussions here.  One is: Where do we find it acceptable to 
embellish/change/play with the dance pattern, and where not?  [We did the 
discussion a couple of years back of what embellishments we couldn't resist,
which included things like the occasional buzz-step swing in "Barbarini's
Tambourine"; what I'm looking for now is a higher-level definition.  The 
answer is not invariably "anything that gets you there on time is okay";
I'd find it personally distressing if the hey for four in Miss de Jersey's
was replaced with one of those contra tricks where one couple doesn't take 
their eyes off each other through the entire hey, ignoring the other couple 
altogether.  [I'm not fond of encountering that in a contra line, but it 
doesn't ruin that time through the dance for me.] I can't claim that my 
aesthetic reactions are a universal truth -- I can _believe_ it, but I can't
_claim_ it -- but discussion with other English dancers have persuaded me that 
there is some commonality of opinion about what's annoying even if it doesn't
physically get in your way.  One example is a guy who used to make his partners
execute a barrel roll during the slips up in "Black Nag", so that after two 
slips they'd be back to back with their hands joined overhead, but would arrive
after four slips back in normal face-to-face position.  Didn't make them late,
didn't put them out of place, but it seemed so alien to the spirit of the dance
that it was just annoying.  Or maybe it was just this guy who was annoying; it
was hard to tell.)

What I'm partly getting at (the other topic) is that I think the mores around
embellishment are unspoken in both English and contra, and that they're
different between the two forms.  Ignoring for the moment the common problem in
contra of the 'hot-shot' dancer who adds twirls, etc, and ends up either late
for everything or making the people he was interacting with late - which is not
a behavior that gets enough negative feedback to be eradicated, although it's
certainly not admired  - the contra rule seems to be that you can always
embellish as you will if it doesn't make you late or hurt anybody.  Extra
twirls, a sudden short swing in the middle of a hey for four, a lindy hop move
- it's all good, all the time, although it's better if you don't force people
who don't want to do your variation to participate in it.

I suspect the unspoken ECD rule is "don't violate the spirit of the particular
dance," which is probably why "the music told me to do it" is a good excuse for
doing something peculiar.  I think we have dances we designate as 'playful',
and we play freely with hose, and we have others we don't mess with because 
we'd mess them up.

A contradancer - even a good, on-time one who dances up on the balls of his
feet and connects with partners and neighbors - might well go to an English
dance, not pick up on this pretty subtle point - which nobody ever discusses,
although callers do sometimes give explicit permission to play - apply the
contra rule on embellishment, receive non-verbal signs of disapproval, and 
conclude, on the evidence available, that those English dancers are a snooty
bunch who don't know how to have any fun.  (While the English dancers, who 
know that this is a dance form that doesn't break even if the first man 
does kneeler capers to the second woman in "Shrewsbury Lasses", conclude 
that many contra dancers are a clueless bunch with no sense of the appropriate
and a big chip on their shoulders.)

When I say the two styles have different mores about this, I don't suggest
that either form change their rules, which clearly work for them.  I just 
wonder what, if anything, can be done to more clearly expose some of the
usually-unspoken things that, while they tie the community together, also
serve as traps for the unwary.  

I wonder also whether it's not this kind of hidden difference that makes 
dance forms, or people, with all their DNA in common end up in opposition.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

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From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re:  walking swings
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Carl Friedman wrote:

  Interesting. I think the best place for a walking step swing is in 
  southern-style square dances when the music is too fast to do a comfortable 
  buzz step. The only problem I see with doing a walking step swing during a 
  contra is that it doesn't feel right when the other person is doing a buzz 
  step. Since the buzz step can be taught to nearly anyone in about 30 seconds, 
  and since it is the norm for contra dancing in most locations that I know of 
  in the US, why not just do it?

I've been told that the walking swing is safer; it certainly balances the 
muscle stress of the swing better than a buzz step does; that works one
foot/leg/hip and not the other.

I sometimes find the walking swing advantageous when dealing with people who
hang _all_ their weight off of you, since it permits turning to face them and
at least not getting your spine pulled sideways.

It's not necessarily slow; I can do quite a fast walking swing, and I've 
never had a complaint from a partner about it.  [And people are pretty fast
to tell you that you're doing something wrong if it's a variation they don't
recognize, like, say, an open ladies' chain instead of a closed or twirling 
one, so I think at least some of them would tell me if they thought it was a
problem.]

And sometimes it lets me keep dancing when I'm too tired for a buzz step swing.

None of this explains why _Steve_ doesn't just do a buzz step, but it's why 
_I_ don't do a buzz step all the time.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:12:42 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  walking swings
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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It is nice to be able to do both kinds of swing.  Then if a buzz-step isn't
working with that partner, you can switch to a walking swing.  It's a lot
more comfortable with most newcomers, and I think they often find it less
intimidating until they've got the hang of the buzz-step.  It's more
comfortable with other walking-swingers, and (as Alan said) it's less
tiring than the buzz-step - useful at the end of a week of strenuous
dancing.

I think the reason the walking swing doesn't fit well with a buzz-step is
not that it's slower, but that the rhythm of your feet is different, so the
two of you are bobbing up and down assynchronously.  You would both have to
be extra extra smoooooth dancers not to notice the difference.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:04:12 -0500 (EST)
From: julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mad Robin
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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To all involved in the contra-country discussion:  It's been most
interesting to read all your comments, which reflect both your love of the
dance and your thoughtfulness.  My commentary now is essentially a plea
for accuracy of terminology:

A 'form' of dance is like a 'form' in music--fundamental structure, such
as ABA. It has nothing to do with 'style' or 'type'!  Contra/country
dances are 'types,' dances whose like characteristics belong to large
families of other dances (with their music) and are immediately
recognizable. 'Style' has to do with the way the bodies move, the steps
they do, the styles of the music they move with, the costumes they wear.
Most of the notes on this thread use all three terms interchangeably.
Very confusing to a dance historian!

From the standpoint of dance history, country dance came first; it became
contredance when it got to France with Isaac and Lorin in the 1680s, and
evolved into American contradance.  No ECD group does country dance today
in the original style in which it was done (we know very little about that
until 1700 or so); anyway, it was reinvented by Cecil Sharp and others in
their own image ca. 1900. So you're talking about 20th-century style in
country or contra. 

I suspect this note will bring about an attack on 'academics,' but yes, I
am one without apology. Clarity of terminology always assists verbal
expression.

Julia Sutton


On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Sol Weber wrote:
> 
>   A small point re Mad Robin -- not that this list avoids small points --
>   when each couple does their parallel pass and loop thru the other
>   couple, ending with the two hands round with their partner, I notice 
>   that the woman's part is simple, because she feeds smoothly into 
>   that final move, but the man must undergo an awkward change of 
>   direction.  My own solution (trying not to feel too flushed and happy 
>   while I do it) is to turn single to the right to more gracefully enter
>   into the two hands around with my partner.  Opinions?
> 
> I wonder whether "flushed and happy" will become our synonym for the 
> British media "tired and emotional" (= "visibly drunk.")  Anyway, I 
> echo Pam Goddard's response - in Mad Robin, if it feels good and doesn't 
> frighten the horses, do it.  By the third or fourth time through Mad Robin,
> I've probably followed my partner back down her side of the set and started
> the two hand turn improper at least once.  (Not if she's new, or doesn't
> seem playful, and not if the other couple look like they might already be
> confused - that's what I mean by frightening the horses.)
> 
> In my head, at least this brings up another couple of topics, not unrelated
> to other discussions here.  One is: Where do we find it acceptable to 
> embellish/change/play with the dance pattern, and where not?  [We did the 
> discussion a couple of years back of what embellishments we couldn't resist,
> which included things like the occasional buzz-step swing in "Barbarini's
> Tambourine"; what I'm looking for now is a higher-level definition.  The 
> answer is not invariably "anything that gets you there on time is okay";
> I'd find it personally distressing if the hey for four in Miss de Jersey's
> was replaced with one of those contra tricks where one couple doesn't take 
> their eyes off each other through the entire hey, ignoring the other couple 
> altogether.  [I'm not fond of encountering that in a contra line, but it 
> doesn't ruin that time through the dance for me.] I can't claim that my 
> aesthetic reactions are a universal truth -- I can _believe_ it, but I can't
> _claim_ it -- but discussion with other English dancers have persuaded me that 
> there is some commonality of opinion about what's annoying even if it doesn't
> physically get in your way.  One example is a guy who used to make his partners
> execute a barrel roll during the slips up in "Black Nag", so that after two 
> slips they'd be back to back with their hands joined overhead, but would arrive
> after four slips back in normal face-to-face position.  Didn't make them late,
> didn't put them out of place, but it seemed so alien to the spirit of the dance
> that it was just annoying.  Or maybe it was just this guy who was annoying; it
> was hard to tell.)
> 
> What I'm partly getting at (the other topic) is that I think the mores around
> embellishment are unspoken in both English and contra, and that they're
> different between the two forms.  Ignoring for the moment the common problem in
> contra of the 'hot-shot' dancer who adds twirls, etc, and ends up either late
> for everything or making the people he was interacting with late - which is not
> a behavior that gets enough negative feedback to be eradicated, although it's
> certainly not admired  - the contra rule seems to be that you can always
> embellish as you will if it doesn't make you late or hurt anybody.  Extra
> twirls, a sudden short swing in the middle of a hey for four, a lindy hop move
> - it's all good, all the time, although it's better if you don't force people
> who don't want to do your variation to participate in it.
> 
> I suspect the unspoken ECD rule is "don't violate the spirit of the particular
> dance," which is probably why "the music told me to do it" is a good excuse for
> doing something peculiar.  I think we have dances we designate as 'playful',
> and we play freely with hose, and we have others we don't mess with because 
> we'd mess them up.
> 
> A contradancer - even a good, on-time one who dances up on the balls of his
> feet and connects with partners and neighbors - might well go to an English
> dance, not pick up on this pretty subtle point - which nobody ever discusses,
> although callers do sometimes give explicit permission to play - apply the
> contra rule on embellishment, receive non-verbal signs of disapproval, and 
> conclude, on the evidence available, that those English dancers are a snooty
> bunch who don't know how to have any fun.  (While the English dancers, who 
> know that this is a dance form that doesn't break even if the first man 
> does kneeler capers to the second woman in "Shrewsbury Lasses", conclude 
> that many contra dancers are a clueless bunch with no sense of the appropriate
> and a big chip on their shoulders.)
> 
> When I say the two styles have different mores about this, I don't suggest
> that either form change their rules, which clearly work for them.  I just 
> wonder what, if anything, can be done to more clearly expose some of the
> usually-unspoken things that, while they tie the community together, also
> serve as traps for the unwary.  
> 
> I wonder also whether it's not this kind of hidden difference that makes 
> dance forms, or people, with all their DNA in common end up in opposition.
> 
> -- Alan
> 
> 
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
> ===============================================================================
> 

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:35:59 -0800
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  walking swings
To: ECD-AT-
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At 2:32 PM -0500 2/18/00, CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:

>The only problem I see with doing a walking step swing during a
>contra is that it doesn't feel right when the other person is doing a buzz
>step.

Frequently I switch back and/or forth between walking step and buzz 
step in the middle of the same swing. No one has never complained and 
most don't even notice. It might have to do with my style of swinging.

--
garyes-AT-
*.*   That's "Gary Yes!" at, um, well, it varies.
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From: Chicoqueen-AT-
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Subject: Re: walking swings
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In a message dated 02/18/2000 12:17:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu writes:

> You would both have to
>  be extra extra smoooooth dancers not to notice the difference.

But it *is* possible.  I've experienced it many times.  One shouldn't be 
bobbing up and down with either form.

Reine

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:25:47 -0500
From: Allison M Thompson <allisonthompson-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
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As a newcomer to the list (caller/teacher & musician with Amarillis), and
when thinking about what to recommend in doing English for a contra
crowd....well, what does the band play really, really well?  If they're
groovy with hornpipes, slip-jigs, rants & triple-time, well, then--great!
 Your options are wide open!  If not, stick to what they'll have fun
with...then your dancers will have fun!

At the risk of throwing more fuel on an obviously hot fire, I'll add that
a bad caller with a great band can still provide an acceptable evening; a
great caller with a dreadful band is doomed for failure.

Allison Thompson
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:13:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Larry Stout <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re:  walking swings
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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I've always found walking swings awkward except in squares where a swing often 
only goes around once.  Perhaps it is that I was never taught how to do a 
walking swing, but whenever I try I end up twisting my right knee.  I have 
danced with partners who did a walking swing to my buzz step successfully and 
with others where we had great difficulty moving around a common center.  With a 
buzz step you have an established pivot point with a walking step you don't.

Lawrence Neff Stout
Professor of Mathematics
Illinois Wesleyan University
http://www.iwu.edu/~lstout

"Fiddling is a viol habit."  Anon?
"Dancing is necessary in a well ordered society." Thoinot Arbeau

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From: CF1125-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mad Robin
To: ECD-AT-
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In a message dated 2/18/0 7:45:34 PM, you wrote:

<<I'd find it personally distressing if the hey for four in Miss de Jersey's
was replaced with one of those contra tricks where one couple doesn't take 
their eyes off each other through the entire hey, ignoring the other couple 
altogether.  [I'm not fond of encountering that in a contra line, but it 
doesn't ruin that time through the dance for me.]>>

Reminds me of a time when doing Zephyrs and Flora at a dance camp with one of 
my favorite contra partners. Here's an example of why I love doing ECD with 
good contra dancers. She ad libbed doing the cast and 1/2 figure 8 part (if 
that's the figure of the dance - I can't recall for sure) without ever 
turning her back on me, and turned what I usually regard as a ho-hum, boring 
dance into a genuinely delightful experience. 

Carl Friedman
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Allison Thompson wrote:


  As a newcomer to the list (caller/teacher & musician with Amarillis), and
  when thinking about what to recommend in doing English for a contra
  crowd....well, what does the band play really, really well?  If they're
  groovy with hornpipes, slip-jigs, rants & triple-time, well, then--great!
  Your options are wide open!  If not, stick to what they'll have fun
  with...then your dancers will have fun!

Welcome, Allison!  Are you the author of "Lighting the Fire?"  I read that
last year and found it really interesting.  (I'd never heard of Elsie J.
Oxenham prior to that, but I really enjoyed the excerpts and summaries 
that gave a picture of how ECD was being taught in the earlier part of the
revival.)

  At the risk of throwing more fuel on an obviously hot fire, I'll add that
  a bad caller with a great band can still provide an acceptable evening; a
  great caller with a dreadful band is doomed for failure.

I take your main point, but assert that a bad enough caller can defeat 
a great band.  (This may be a strange point for a caller to be making.)
Picture a caller who does all these things: leaves so much time between 
dances that people get into break mode or wander off; picks dances that
are way too hard for the crowd or for the caller's own skills; is inaudible
except when getting mad at the dancers for not doing what the caller wants and
expressing that anger with withering sarcasm.

The band could recover from the first by spontaneously playing couple dances, 
I suppose, but there's not that much they can do about the other problems.

How about: "an adequate caller with a great band is likelier to produce a
wonderful evening than an excellent caller with a merely adequate band"?

But I'll take your second clause completely as it stands: "A great caller 
with a dreadful band is doomed for failure."

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mad Robin
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Carl wrote:

  Reminds me of a time when doing Zephyrs and Flora at a dance camp with one of 
  my favorite contra partners. Here's an example of why I love doing ECD with 
  good contra dancers. She ad libbed doing the cast and 1/2 figure 8 part (if 
  that's the figure of the dance - I can't recall for sure) without ever 
  turning her back on me, and turned what I usually regard as a ho-hum, boring 
  dance into a genuinely delightful experience. 

Yup, that's the figure of the dance.  I'd call this an improvisation that's in
the spirit of the particular dance, and so is what ECDers would consider 
legitimate.  Are you sure she's not a good English dancer?

Actually, it sounds charming, and I may try it the next time I
do that dance - which I don't do that often because, like, the hand-jive thing
is in Jamaica, too, and Jamaica is an intrinsically cool dance - but which I do
sometimes pull out because you have to keep rotating your no-brainer dances or
people get bored with them.

My problem with the Miss de Jersey's example is that the business with never
looking at anybody but your partner in the hey for four turns it from a figure
where you interact with everybody to a figure where you interact with your
partner and ignore everybody else, and part of the texture of the dance is in
the tension between partner and whole set orientation, which is resolved in 
the B part with the 1s fabulous flight down the center of the set.  Ignoring
the other dancers all the way through is (besides being rude)
counterproductive, because it means that the flight down the center isn't a
resolution, which makes it anticlimactic, and also shows that you just don't
get it.  (I should mention that this was a hypothetical example that has never
happened to me, nor have I ever heard of it happening; I hope I don't, since I
find I'm getting a little worked up over it even hypothetically.)

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:21:21 -0800
From: South Bay English Country Dance <sbecd-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: so many CDs... follow on summary
To: ECD-AT-
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--Boundary_(ID_h+Ovc96AQZsQdgtBOxF88A)
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Good day.
over a week ago I asked the list subscribers for feedback on a set of CDs
which I was considering for purchase, and promised to post a summary. Only a
handful of replies were received; here is (to the best of my knowledge) the
condensed wisdom of the mailing list.

I will not identify who said what: people who have had the candor to write
their opinions have a right to privacy. 
Someday, if confronted with a court order [ :-)) ] I might reconsider my
decision, but until then you will have to make do with this summary
(attached here in plain text ASCII format).

That is all, thank you very much to those who took the time to share their
knowledge and experiences with me; I will be in touch off-line to answer
your queries.
Giovanni De Amici 

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start attached file:


For a list of the CDs under consideration, please see my original posting; 
that list is arranged in approximate alphabetical order by band, which explains why the Assembly players are at the top (some of you wondered/amazed/inquired about that).

general comments:
-  the Assembly Players have a rich collection, but their style,(which is reflective of ECD in the UK) sounds very "plinky"  and barn dance-like; .... in the US we have gotten ... used to lovely musical lines and lush harmonies; they don't do that.

- the Assembly players CDs are mostly obscure dances.

- I would recommend a sampling of as many bands as you can manage

- I'm not overly impressed by the ensemble playing in the Pemberley Players CD

- the Assembly Players CDs (except for Playford from the New World) come across 
as somewhat rough to my ear, or the musical variety is too limited for just listening 

- the Playford Consort ... I never found myself playing them over and over because I liked them so much; I have done that with other tracks.

- many of the early Assembly Players albums have intonation problems--nice dances but ouch.

- Walsh Ball, Playford from the New World, and Dance and danceability contain instructions for all the dances in the booklet in the CD case



more specific comments:

- Assembly players;      Assembly dances
pretty complicated dances
only available on cassette (the catalog I have says otherwise [editor's note])

- Contraband;           Nothing to declare
a ceilidh band set of dances, though from a fairly standard sort of band rather than a loud ceilidh band.

- Cohen and Fleming;    Grand dancing master
has a couple of good tracks, but is a bit obscure.
one or two nice things, but a rather tasteless Bishop (with tubular bells), a dastardly slow Queen's Jig, and a rather tasteless Baffled Knight with clopping of horses hooves

- Douglass et al;       Apollo's banquet
adore Apollo's Banquet but it's largely nondanceable.  But so gorgeous.

- Dutch comfort;        Shades of Shaw
a very fast band (which may be good or bad, depending), and seems to overlap a lot of other recordings.
lively and musical, but recorded quite a long time ago, and at the rather fast speeds current in Holland at that time.

- Kenton ramblers;      Dances of Pat Shaw
a definite for a solid collection of usable Pat Shaw dances
The sound is a bit dated, but it has the historic authenticity of being the Band who played for Pat the first time most of these dances were done.

- Pemberley players;    Pride and prejudice collection
a basic collection of straightforward dances (with one or two overlaps with Playford Pops)
very idiosyncratic, with a key change in almost every track, and a desperately slow "Never love thee more". There is also a desperately slow "Duke of Kent's Waltz"

- Wild thyme;           Dutch crossing
quite a good collection to have (you probably need to get the associated book because some of the dances are obscure)
good lively playing, with one or two really nice tracks ("Trip to the Mills", for instance),- very danceable, but a rather depressing keyboard sound!



I also asked for reccomendations:

Pride and Prejudice 	1 vote (actually, two 1/2 votes)
Kenton Ramblers  	1 vote
Dutch Crossing 	2 votes 
Walsh Ball 	1/3 vote
Playford from the New World 	1+1/3 vote
Dance and danceability 	5/6 vote (actually one 1/2 and one 1/3 votes)
Apollo's Banquet  	1 vote
Playford Pops 	1 vote (but it is out of print)


suggested additions (in no particular order):
Belshazzar's Feast: One Too Many and Drop the Reed - 
a rather classical approach, at least in what I heard, but very fresh to my ears. 
Chris Dewhurst + Sue Stapledon: Playford Pops - 
a basic collection of "standard" dances (unfortunately the CD is not available anymore [editor's note])
Triple Thyme: "Hilary's Humours"
The Cracknels: "High Jenks"


:end attached file

--Boundary_(ID_h+Ovc96AQZsQdgtBOxF88A)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:41:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:00:52 -0700
From: William DeRagon <wderagon-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000218.233717.-799225.0.wderagon-AT-
juno.com>
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On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:27:41 -0500 (EST) CF1125-AT-
aol.com writes:
>> In a message dated 2/18/0 4:59:56 PM, you wrote:
>> English dances that I have found to be successful with a primarily 
>> contra crowd include:  [...snip]
> 
> Not to be argumentative (especially after previous comments re ECD 
> vs contra) but the Albuquerque contra crowd must be very different
> from the Baltimore-Washington crowd if the above dances would go
> over well with them.  [snip]

There are, of course, differences between Albuquerque &
Baltimore-Washington DC dancers.  EVERY dance community differs to some
degree from every other.  Examples are numerous.  Think of all the
missives to this list pointing out differences between ECDancers in
England and America.  Or, Morris styles defined by village of origin.  In
New England several years ago, I could distinguish (with reasonable
statistical accuracy) among contra dancers from Vermont/New Hampshire vs.
Boston vs. Rhode Island based on their style of balancing.  Contra
dancers in the U.S.'s Northeast corridor (currently) perform a promenade
with one hand behind the lady's back and a right-&-left-through without
taking hands, while Southwesterners commonly perform a promenade with a
"skater's hold" and a right-&-left-through by taking hands.  "Center set
syndrome" seems to be a meaningless concept in most dance communities
between the Mississippi River and the Sierra Nevadas. 

[Unpardonable, though non-judgmental and related, aside:   Q: How many
contra dancers does it take to change a light bulb?  A: Four. One to
change the light bulb and three to discuss how much better it would have
been done in Boston.] 

Biologists have developed the theory of "Island Bio-geography" which
largely explains differences between large "mainland" animal/plant
communities and other populations isolated by distance, ocean, desert,
mountains, or some other geographic barrier.  Generally, the greater the
distance or degree of isolation, the fewer mainland species present in
the island population.  Therefore, island communities usually exhibit
less biological diversity than the large mainland (source) community
(...unless the island community has existed for a very long time).  On
the other hand, mainland species which become established at island
locations may evolve (change physically and behaviorally) more rapidly
than the source population (the Galapagos Islands being the classic
example.)

Without much difficulty, we could probably adapt some of these principles
to develop a theory of "Island Socio-choreography" to explain differences
among local country-dance communities, or among aficionados of dance
genres. (And, for all I know, dance historians may already have working
hypotheses along this line.)  The factors responsible are numerous,
intriguing, and even have correlates to biological populations:  distance
(both geographic and temporal), available resources (e.g., dance
leaders), relatedness (degree of interaction between neighboring
communities), tradition (behavior learned from predecessors), and
tolerance (thresholds of socially defined behavior). 

"Available resources" is an especially interesting factor.  Dance
leaders, a local resource, have a subset of predilections determined by
their personal degree of relatedness and tradition.  Additionally, while
dance descriptions (another resource) are available in printed and
digital formats to the global country-dance population, local variation
still persists in the physical manifestation of the figures. 

Getting back to Carl's original point, New Mexico probably is a good
example of a relatively "isolated" country-dance population in terms of
distance and relatedness to other communities, yet is similar in those
respects to many in the interior of North America.  To put this in
perspective for coastal denizens, consider it in terms of driving time. 
Albuquerque and Santa Fe are a one-hour drive apart and are essentially
the same country-dance community.  Taos is another 1-1/2 hour drive north
of Santa Fe and is a "sister" in terms of shared resources.  "Cousin"
dance communities are in Las Cruces, NM, and Durango, CO, each about a
4-hour drive from Albuquerque.  Beyond that, there is Flagstaff/Prescott,
AZ (7-hour drive), Tucson, AZ, & Denver, CO (9-hour drives), and Austin,
TX (15-hour drive).  All these local dance communities vary in social and
performance aspects, and differ even more from the "mainland" populations
on the Western and Eastern seaboards.  Since regular interaction among
Southwestern dance communities is precluded by large distances, exposure
to other-than-local influences is limited to the experience of local 
dance leaders, the travel itineraries of individual dancers, and the
frequency of special events which would draw dancers from afar. 

I guess the summary point of this (two-beer) diatribe is that despite the
seemingly global nature of this Mailing List, we should remember in our
statements and inferences that local differences do, in fact, exist.

William DeRagon
A confirmed "trans-West-ite" in Albuquerque, NM.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:45:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 10:18:30 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: so many CDs... follow on summary
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Giovanni wrote:
> I asked the list subscribers for feedback on a set of CDs
>Only a
>handful of replies were received

I did not reply, as I don't consider myself much of a specialist --which
other list members obviously are !
However, the reactions Giovanni summarized made me want to add a word or
two after all.
First thought: people like what they are used to, and styles on opposite
sides of the Atlantic are apparently quite different.

>-  the Assembly Players have a rich collection, 
 -- yes, indeed, and very danceable, as well as being a pleasure to listen
to ... imho, of course

>sounds very "plinky"  and barn dance-like
 -- What ???
Your cds must have gotten warped in transit. I would call it a light and
sparkling sound.

> .... in the US we have gotten used to lovely musical lines and lush
harmonies; 
>they don't do that.
 -- Rubbish !!!

>- the Assembly players CDs are mostly obscure dances.
 -- It's nice to get a bit of variety. I have often been struck, reading
dance names mentioned on the ecd list, that the same dances seem to come up
over and over again. Perhaps you should broaden your horizons.

Giovanni did not ask about Bare Necessities "Take a dance", a cd that I
bought because the band's name had been mentioned so frequently on the
list. I don't like to criticize musicians that have undoubtedly put a lot
of work into the preparation of their recording, but ... what a
disappointment. There were all the dance names I had heard of so often, but
I haven't even been tempted to use the record in class, since I have others
that I find so much more enjoyable.

>- Wild thyme;           Dutch crossing
>quite a good collection to have 
 -- Well, I agree there, at last. One of my favorites, nice playing,
interesting dances.

>Triple Thyme: "Hilary's Humours"
 -- Although this is by some of the Wild Thyme musicians -- no violin :-(
-- it feels less satisfying to me, a bit lethargic, but maybe it's just
that the dances are unfamilar to me.

No-one mentioned the Rampions' cd for Colin Hume's "Dances with a
Difference" -- some nice music (with more than one tune for some of the
dances) and an intriguing mix of rhythms (5 beats/bar, for example) and
phrase lengths. Unusual dances -- definitely "with a difference."

Forgive my trampling on other people's feelings, just this once !


Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/     
                  (dance groups,  some new dances, cycling ...)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 03:53:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:41:48 +0000
From: Paul Sartin <psartin-AT-
attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: so many CDs... follow on summary
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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South Bay English Country Dance wrote:

> suggested additions (in no particular order):
> Belshazzar's Feast: One Too Many and Drop the Reed -
> a rather classical approach, at least in what I heard, but very fresh to my ears.
>

I believe that your list is of dance albums - unfortunately neither of the above fit this criteria (criterium?), although unintentionally they may contain some tunes which are danceable.

As it happens, as I speak we are recording an album of eighteenth-century English stuff, which will have an accompanying manual by Andrew Shaw - so here's a shameless plug for the forthcoming Mr Kynaston's Famous Dance

Paul.

--
Paul Sartin MA (Oxon) LRSM

The Amber Agency
May Cottage,
Wherwell,
Hampshire,
SP11 7JS

Tel/fax: +44 (0) 1264 860791
Mobile:  +44 (0) 411 485798


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
South Bay English Country Dance wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><i>suggested additions (in no particular order):</i>
<br><i>Belshazzar's Feast: One Too Many and Drop the Reed -</i>
<br><i>a rather classical approach, at least in what I heard, but very
fresh to my ears.</i>
<br><i></i>&nbsp;</blockquote>
I believe that your list is of dance albums - unfortunately neither of
the above fit this criteria (criterium?), although unintentionally they
may contain some tunes which are danceable.
<p>As it happens, as I speak we are recording an album of eighteenth-century
English stuff, which will have an accompanying manual by Andrew Shaw -
so here's a shameless plug for the forthcoming <b>Mr Kynaston's Famous
Dance</b>
<p>Paul.
<p>--
<br>Paul Sartin MA (Oxon) LRSM
<p>The Amber Agency
<br>May Cottage,
<br>Wherwell,
<br>Hampshire,
<br>SP11 7JS
<p>Tel/fax: +44 (0) 1264 860791
<br>Mobile:&nbsp; +44 (0) 411 485798
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_LVpBLKUulPMeTmvDw0kE5A)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:46:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:48:41 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b4d44c0ccfd4-AT-
[140.186.55.47]>
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I find this a useful and accurate analysis of the dance scene in the US at
present.  And, incidentally, in the 70's when I was regularly dancing as
well.  But it brings up, to me, the next logical question.

What is "contra" dancing now?

For instance, there are clear indications from some contributors that a
walk-around swing is acceptable to their communities, is part of their
definition of "contra" dancing.  As an older member, perhaps, of the "New
England square and contra" dance community, I cannot reconcile that with my
definition of "contra" dancing.  A walk-around swing belongs to the
southern genre and to the lazy and very elderly.  A walk-around swing
completely misses the point of New England style square and contra dancing.
Deep down, the point is to swing with gusto and flair.  Even thinking of
the swing as "once around", as Alan mentioned, is contrary to my basic
concept of New England square and contra dancing.  The swing is the goal,
the endpoint of each sequence of figures!

It sounds a bit as though I am seriously out of date on that.

Now, to put together a program of "English" dances that will attract and
hold the attention of "contra" dancers, we need to begin by considering
what it is that "contra" dancers want of an evening of dance.  Then we can
analyze "English" dances to find ones that feed in to that.

So I'll start.

Criterion 1:  "contra" dancers want continuous movement.  They don't want
to stand around before the dance, or during it.

Anybody else want to contribute here?

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetle cats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:12:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 10:08:51 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04220800b4d45d62d38f-AT-
[206.72.193.182]>
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Emily presented:

>Criterion 1:  "contra" dancers want continuous movement.  They don't want
>to stand around before the dance, or during it.

Criterion:  contra dancers want easily remembered dance phrases - a 
dance pattern that will be easily learned during walk-through and 
first couple turns of the dance.

Criterion:  contra dancers want dances that have one or more 
opportunities to swing with partner and/or others  ( Like Emily I 
find this dates me because I didn't come up in Contra dancing doing 
this - we used to do many dances that did not have swings or only one 
prized swing.)

Criterion:  contra dancers want dances which are based on a small 
number of easily learned figures which can be combined in many 
combinations.

Criterion:  contra dancers aren't interested in specialized 
"gimmicks" such as stepping or unique interaction between dancers.

While I see this leading towards more active English dances (although 
not rants) the problem still remains that people who are involved 
with contra dancing (attend regularly let's say) have acquired the 
skills that make contra dancing most enjoyable to them.  They know 
the figures, they may be working towards or can anticipate movements 
and patterns, they can recover from errors, they understand how it 
all works. They're comfortable with the dance scenes they travel in.

Asking them to try English dancing still requires them to be in an 
unfamilar situation and to acquire new skills and knowledge.  Why 
would they want to do that?  Me saying that it's a great thing isn't 
enough.  They like what they're doing and get enjoyment out of it. 
So do I.

So it takes a certain person at a certain point in his/her life to 
say - I'm gonna try that.  Just as it would for a person to say  - 
I'm going to try downhill skiing after years of cross country.

I think people often come to English from Contra by experiencing an 
ECD that is thrown into a dance somewhere - or someone making a deal 
out of doing The Bishop  etc during a contra dance.   Or they see it 
somewhere and it intrigues them.

Making it more familiar to them won't necessarily overcome the human 
nature problem of sticking with what you know and enjoy.  It's 
different and the person has to be at a point of being open and ready 
to try something new.

Just MHO

Mary Beth

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:43:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:42:12 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04220802b4d482d39f90-AT-
[206.72.193.133]>
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>To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
>watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
>contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
>smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
>
>I think I've offended enough people for today.
>
>Bob


Wow Bob - I've been working my way through these posts and was pretty 
surprised by some of the remarks and I was glad to read yours.

Phew.  Different strokes for different folks.

After quite a few years of doing contra dancing (sometimes at the 
fanatic level), I stopped (except for NEFFA and odd special events) 
because it had changed so much from what I had originally enjoyed. 
And I mean stopped as in - we were driving home from a local regular 
dance discussing loudly the problems we'd had that night and suddenly 
said aloud - I thought this was supposed to be fun.

It wasn't any more and we stopped going.  Too much southern 
influence, too much full body contact sport feel, too little dancing 
to the music, too much doing things not in the dance being called etc 
etc etc.  I'm saddened now at NEFFA when no one knows Rory O'More or 
Chorus Jig or Hulls Victory.  I'm saddened when people grouse about 
dances with one or no swing in them.

Much of what I and many people do (it's what I heard in Emily's post) 
in ECD is what we did in contra - we learned dances - not by heart 
perhaps but we knew them by name and something about them.  We 
enjoyed the special moments in each and we were glad to hear "the 
next dance is......"  My experience at NEFFA now is that if they 
never announced the name of another dance no one would particularly 
care.

I don't dance as much as I would like to now - too much stuff to do 
and too little time.  I can't always afford to spend more time 
traveling than dancing.  But I still like English dancing over contra 
dancing. (OK - not when it's all triple time mush, LOL)

Why - because I can dance full out, with the music, experience other 
people at each turn of the dance and have a great time.  Exactly what 
I liked about contra dancing.

The same things I didn't like about contra dancing I don't like when 
it happens in English - pushy rude people, people who do stuff that's 
not in there, people who are in my face etc etc etc.

OK, I've vented, I feel better.  Enjoy what you're doing and leave 
the rest alone.

Mary Beth

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 10:04:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:08:27 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38AEDC1A.6EF45B31-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
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[206.72.193.133]>



Mary Beth Goodman wrote:

> >To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
> >watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
> >contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
> >smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
> >
> >I think I've offended enough people for today.
> >
> >Bob
>
> Wow Bob - I've been working my way through these posts and was pretty
> surprised by some of the remarks and I was glad to read yours.
>
> Phew.  Different strokes for different folks.
>
> After quite a few years of doing contra dancing (sometimes at the
> fanatic level), I stopped (except for NEFFA and odd special events)
> because it had changed so much from what I had originally enjoyed.
> And I mean stopped as in - we were driving home from a local regular
> dance discussing loudly the problems we'd had that night and suddenly
> said aloud - I thought this was supposed to be fun.
>
> It wasn't any more and we stopped going.  Too much southern
> influence, too much full body contact sport feel, too little dancing
> to the music, too much doing things not in the dance being called etc
> etc etc.  I'm saddened now at NEFFA when no one knows Rory O'More or
> Chorus Jig or Hulls Victory.  I'm saddened when people grouse about
> dances with one or no swing in them.
>
> Much of what I and many people do (it's what I heard in Emily's post)
> in ECD is what we did in contra - we learned dances - not by heart
> perhaps but we knew them by name and something about them.  We
> enjoyed the special moments in each and we were glad to hear "the
> next dance is......"  My experience at NEFFA now is that if they
> never announced the name of another dance no one would particularly
> care.
>
> I don't dance as much as I would like to now - too much stuff to do
> and too little time.  I can't always afford to spend more time
> traveling than dancing.  But I still like English dancing over contra
> dancing. (OK - not when it's all triple time mush, LOL)
>
> Why - because I can dance full out, with the music, experience other
> people at each turn of the dance and have a great time.  Exactly what
> I liked about contra dancing.
>
> The same things I didn't like about contra dancing I don't like when
> it happens in English - pushy rude people, people who do stuff that's
> not in there, people who are in my face etc etc etc.
>
> OK, I've vented, I feel better.  Enjoy what you're doing and leave
> the rest alone.
>
> Mary Beth

I heartily endorse Mary Beth's remarks. I go way back in Contra's (1939
would you believe) and it was a different scene entirely. There was a
grace and elegance to Contra's (somehat like ECD) that has been lost to
the current "aerobic" style. The last time I did Contras I got my glasses
knocked of twice in that one evening. The repetory has expanded so much
that there is no way to know what you are "in for" before you get on the
floor, even if the occassional caller tells you before you get up there
(and that is rare) and for someone with some physical infirmities it
makes the dancing impossible. The dancers have so little knowledge of the
past or dance history that they don't think you know what you are doing
if you don't do an assisted cast or twirls in do-si-do (whatever happened
to the "back to back" in do-si-do?) or in a ladies chain. Sorry kids but
I will stick to ECD or SCD-regretfully farewell to Contras!

By the way. When I started (God that sounds ancient) the walk swing was
always used for Southern Mountain dancing (i.e Kentucky Running Set)
where the music was played much faster than elsewhere and a buzz swing
was used for the rest-HOWEVER- the current style of playing for Contras
has become  nearly as fast as it used to be for Southern dancing and on
the few occassions where I have done Contras in recent years I found the
walk swing more apropriate-provided my partner knew how to do it!

Ben Stein


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 10:44:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:44:47 -0500 (EST)
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: walking swings again
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000219184447.97741.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If I were in a crabby mood I'd suggest that I'd been willfully misunderstood 
about the usefulness of walking swings. Again: when I find myself dancing 
with beginners (or not-so-beginners but still awkward swingers) who do a 
weird sideways hopping or sidling during swings -- come on, you know just 
what I mean -- I always tell them to walk, that it always works. And yes, 
you can walk in time to fast music -- just get the tempo right. As for "you 
cannot walking step swing fast enough" arguments... nuts. That's like "oh, 
you must skip through this figure, or you'll never get there in time" which 
is the bunk for me as well, but then I believe in walking briskly.

If I find myself with a partner who seems capable of handling a good brisk 
buzzstep, well peachy,  I comply. But unless you're intentionally avoiding 
beginners -- yes, you know who you are, you center line elitists -- you know 
that many people are pretty poor buzzsteppers. Better a good walk than a 
bizarre hop'n'sidle. ("Balance and hop'n'sidle the one below!")

crabbily, because I couldn't go to the sword ale this year, and as I've said 
before the root of all ECD = sword dancing,
Steve Corrsin
______________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:28:47 -0800
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: so many CDs... follow on summary
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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playford.slac.stanford.edu
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South Bay English Country Dance <sbecd-AT-
geocities.com> wrote:


> Chris Dewhurst + Sue Stapledon: Playford Pops - 
> a basic collection of "standard" dances (unfortunately the CD is not available anymore [editor's note])

I'm surprised at this since the CD only came out in 1997. As far as 
I'm aware CDSS have never carried anything from Chris which is a 
shame because (in my opinion) he's producing the best dance 
material in the UK at the moment. He has a couple of other 
recordings of ECD music out with various combinations of 
musicians, as well as recordings more suitable for contras.

If anyone's desperate for a copy of "Playford Pops" I have a couple 
of spares that I'd be willing to sell. Email me off the list.

On the subject of speed - there were a couple of comments along 
the lines of "disastrously slow" about particular tracks. Speed is a 
very personal thing - I like Queen's Jig much slower than a lot of 
other people like it. Right or wrong? Who can tell, it certainly 
changes the character of the dance though.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:00:10 -0700
From: mdevlin-AT-
teleport.com (Mary Devlin)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I've found it interesting reading the thread regarding ECD and contra
dancers.  Speaking very, very generally, I get the sense that we _know_
what our dance community is like, we _know_ what it will/will not tolerate
or enjoy, and that's it by gum.  And this may be fine.

I'd like to put another idea out though, because maybe... it's not actually
fine.  Or at least it could be better.

Consider this.  What are YOUR expectations?  About your dance community?
The dancers?  The music?  The dances?  When you have a chance to introduce
ECD to contra dancers, what's going on in your own head?  Are you excited
to have a wonderful opportunity?  Are you feeling scared because you think
they won't like it?  Are you seeing them be successful and having FUN?  Are
you visualizing people coming up to you afterward and saying that they
didn't know how much fun it could be, and they'll be back?

The only thing we can *really* control is our own mind.

And it's important that we work on this because no matter what we think
about the evening and about the dancers' success -- it'll be transmitted to
them.  So if we _know_ that contra dancers won't like doing ECD, odds are
we're right.  And if we _know_ that they will, odds are we're right.

Mary Devlin


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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:37:05 -0500
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Contra against ECD etc.
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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>To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
>watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
>contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
>smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
>
>I think I've offended enough people for today.
>
>Bob


And your reply to this fatuous and ungenerous comment was....?

Pat
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Folks --

Wow, I'm being a talky little blaggard this week.

While it's an interesting exercise to analyze contemporary contradance, I
suspect that we're not going to  make new English dancers by designing
English programs as much like contemporary contradance as possible. 

I mean, if you ask a question that's basically "what kind of dancing do 
contra dancers like?" you're going to get the answer "contra dancing."

At least, you get that answer if you assume that "contra dancers" are a 
single mass with a single set of tastes, which just isn't so.  Certainly
there are contradancers who don't do any other kind of dance, 
who want longways duple improper roughly-equal dances with two swings where 
nobody ever stops moving and complain if they don't get them, but there are
also people who got to contradancing because they liked to try new stuff, 
and who are still there because they enjoy having live music and interaction 
with the whole set, not just their partners. 

Every dance type (better, Julia?) appeals on more than one level (even if
that appeal is opaque to you personally).  Although aerobic  trancing is
definitely a reason for some or many people to keep going to  contras, it's
obviously not the only reason.  (At dances with center-set syndrome issues,
the dancing in the sidelines, which is mostly new people, is pretty dire,
and the turn-your-brain-off-and-just-repeat-the-pattern thing Does Not
Work. Those people are not getting whatever benefits aerobic  trancing
offers, and yet some of them keep coming back.  There's something else
there for them.)

[I forget what poster on rec.folk-dancing I borrowed "aerobic trancing"
from, but it's a useful phrase.  There's a chap on the eceilidh mailing
list who refers to some dance experiences as "tantric", and the best I 
can figure is that he means the same kind of thing, except lumpy
(step-hops, etc, and rockin' ceilidh bands) rather than smooth.]

I think it's a misguided effort to compose an English program that's as
close to contemporary contra as possible, both because (as Mary Beth
suggests) why should they bother? That's what they're already getting - and
because if that's what hooks them they'll be disappointed when they come 
to your English dance and don't get it.

Obviously you can't neglect local contra groups in recruiting efforts. 
This are people who are willing to get out of the house and come dancing,
after all.  But there isn't necessarily any more overlap between contra and
English than between contra and swing or English and Irish or contra and
Scottish.  (I pick those examples because I know my local area has at least
several people who overlap between each of those pairs of things; some of
them have even constructed dance camps on that basis.  But each overlap
group, even in the humungous Bay Area, isn't big enough to make a
sustaining community from.)


Some people, as I've mentioned before, prefer different things.  My Regency
dance group - basically ECD of the 1770-1820 period, or at least to music
from that time period - has been a gateway to country dancing for perhaps a
dozen or fifteen people in the fifteen years it's been around.  Most of
them did Regency, found broader English dance in the Bay Area, and kept
attending both.  Two of them, however, found Regency, enjoyed it, tried 
contradancing, and dropped Regency like a hot potato.  That was what
resonated with them; that was what they really liked.  (And for that
matter, I recollect a dedicated contradancer and dance community volunteer who 
found Cajun dancing, found it was what she really liked, and dropped
contra.)  So there are contradancers who will be impervious to the appeal
of English because contradancing is what they really prefer; there will be
some who like English once they're exposed to it; there will be some who
really like international folk dance but can only get it once a month and
are willing to fill their time with any kind of dancing.

The people you really want to hook are the ones who are going to love
English dancing.  The best chance of hooking them is to show them a
fairly true picture of English dance, not one distorted to make it as much 
like contra as possible.  (This also gives you your best chance of catching
your local dance gypsies, who do any kind of dancing that floats by.)

So put together a program that delights you and has a lot more dancing than
teaching; don't try to be just like contra; know (as Mary suggests) that 
it'll delight them, and you'll have a chance.


[In Reine's particular case, it does sound like it might be best to slip an
English dance or two into each contra night she calls until there's enough
local interest to make a special workshop or dance seem desirable.  I doubt
the Chico dancers will find "Margaret's Waltz" too prissy, and the band can
almost certainly deal with it - although they may be surprised to find that
it's an English tune with a known composer, not a traditional American one.

The people who come to the workshop are self-selected to be interested in
this stuff, so you don't have to sell _them_ on why to bother doing
anything but contra, and you can give them "Smithy Hill" and "Levi Jackson"
as a reward for knowing their contra figures, and point out how the
different music makes you move differently.]

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

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Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:36:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:36:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net> wrote:
 
> When I started (God that sounds ancient), the walk swing
> was always used for Southern Mountain dancing (i.e,
> Kentucky Running Set) where the music was played much
> faster than elsewhere....

At Berea, Kentucky's Christmas School in the early 70s, not
only were the swings done with a walking step (or more
accurately, a flat run), they weren't done in ballroom
position. Essentially, they were two-hand turns. The
implication was that this was the old-fashioned way, but I
don't know what they may have used in local dances.

--Lyrl

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Archive-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:09:03 PST
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:08:52 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Contra against ECD against Contra
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In a message dated 2/19/00 10:37:51 PM, you wrote:

<<At Berea, Kentucky's Christmas School in the early 70s, not
only were the swings done with a walking step (or more
accurately, a flat run), they weren't done in ballroom
position. Essentially, they were two-hand turns. The
implication was that this was the old-fashioned way, but I
don't know what they may have used in local dances.

--Lyrl>>

They still do the "swings" in Kentucky Set Running in that manner at Berea, 
but otherwise swing there generally means standard modern contra-style 
ballroom-hold buzz-step. 

Carl Friedman
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From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: walking swings again
To: ECD-AT-
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At 1:44 PM -0500 2/19/00, Stephen D. Corrsin wrote:
>
>crabbily, because I couldn't go to the sword ale this year, and as 
>I've said before the root of all ECD = sword dancing,
>Steve Corrsin

We missed you, crabby or no. But New World is recovering from the
shock of your absence, and the new members are rapidly acquiring
the usual suspect dances. Consider it a legacy, and have fun when
you get back to us for the Playford Ball.

[For those who don't know -- the contra dance at the end of the
feast on the Saturday of the Ale is a _very_ hot contra, with most
of the dancers being fine (and devoted) ECD dancers as well.]

================================================================================
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:54:05 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Contra against English
To: English Article <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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I found the thread about contra against English interesting - here it was
also Scottish against contra and vice versa - vs. International vs. ballroom
etc. etc. -- I say "was" because this for me is a "pet peeve" and I've
really worked to try and do something about it - as have a number of other
people in this area - I try to participate in as many of the different forms
of dance as possible (mostly I just like to dance! and have fun) - I
encourage as much crossover from group to group as possible - and try to
learn the terms and how they relate (contra "heys" and Scottish "reels" for
example).  I call my group "Scottish Country Dancing and More" and each week
try to use the last half hour in a three hour segment to throw out something
new - sometimes contra, English, Irish, swing, country western,
International, waltz, polka, tango, to name only a few.

The local contra group recently did a weekend workshop that included in the
same afternoon historical contra, Scottish (which I led), waltz, English and
modern contra - it was a great afternoon - and about 3/4 of the group were
willing to participate in Scottish and did well and had a good time with it.
I found out from the person doing the historical contra the dances he
planned to do, looked up the figures in them and tried to pick dances that
build on what they would have just learned and leave out dances that had
figures that were similar but also just different enough to be confusing.
The evening dance attended by my estimate by 75 plus people was a mixture of
contra and English dancing - the CDSS Executive committee was meeting in
Houston and their members called along with locals so there was a lot of
talent - and great music - a wonderful evening and very creatively put
together.  I think more of this kind of thing might lessen the hostility
that is sometimes affected by fear of the unfamiliar/unknown.

I've noticed in many ways prejudice/hostility and perceptions of scarcity go
hand in hand - and one comment I've heard is fear of losing of dancers -
i.e. if you tell people in one group about another form of dance you may
start losing people - however, I think people who already like to dance are
the likeliest prospects.

"Touching" is a factor I've noticed that affects what types of dance people
will take on - those who don't like a lot of touching with total strangers
are more comfortable with Scottish or English where the touching is more
limited and more predictable.  Those who are comfortable in general with
touching take readily to contras since all the assisted turns and balances
and swings include this.  Equal/unequal numbers of men/women also have an
affect (in Scottish it's easy to get people to dance either part, fairly
easy also in English, much harder in contra - at least that's been my
experience).

Other factors I've noticed:
ability to keep balance (easiest in English, hardest in contra with all the
swinging);
memory ability (Scottish is probably the hardest since dances aren't
called);
Preferences for order and structure or chaos and creativity;
Individual needs for acceptance, approval, appreciation, adventure,
achievement,  affection
Energy required (contra dances go on longer, Scottish uses up a lot of
energy quickly but the dances don't go on as long)

I very much agree with the comment about being tolerant of all types of
dance even if it doesn't appeal to you personally.

With each new dancer that comes to our group I try to get a sense of what
their needs and goals are in taking up dance, and talk to each one
individually to try and find a way for them to achieve that - even if that
means suggesting they also try other types of dance.

Dianna

P. S. what are "Southern squares" ? - I'm familiar with the country western
type of square dancing but had not heard of "Southern squares"

Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
Scottish Country Dancing and More:
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:51:22 PST
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:20:09 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: steps (ex: swings)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Locally, we walk in all our ECdances, though I try to remember to tell them
it's more like a slow run (balls of feet) than a heavy heels-down march.
Surely it used to be  known as "running step" anyway.

Recently, a new British person turned up at my class, in her fifties, had
danced in her youth (hadn't we all?) but given up due to other commitments.
Although the rest of us were awalking, she invariably did a step-hop all
the way through. Made me think, that, yes, indeed, that's the way I
remember doing a fair number of dances (not Playford) in my youth. That's
the way we did it then, in the London area, though I have not seen any
step-hopping for many years now. And we used the step-hop in swings too,
certainly for the hornpipe/polka type rhythms (and you really had to give
weight, to get turning).

In the recent list discussion of steps to use in a swing, no-one has
suggested this. Change of fashion? A local (English) oddity? or my bad
memory?
Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/     
                  (dance groups,  some new dances, cycling ...)
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 07:16:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra against English
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: English Article <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Dianna Shipman wrote:

> P. S. what are "Southern squares" ? - I'm familiar with the country western
> type of square dancing but had not heard of "Southern squares"

Basically traditional squares as done in rural areas of the American 
south and midwest over the last century, without the accoutrements of 
Modern Western Square Dancing (or "club dancing") such as costuming and 
highly-intricate steps.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:54:21 -0700
From: William DeRagon <wderagon-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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The concurrent threads of "ECD/Playford for a contra crowd" and "Contra
against ECD" have been useful in highlighting the expectations of contra
dancers.  In may cases, however, the expectations of EC dancers have been
assumed to be 'understood' by the list members.  Emily and Mary Beth
began listing some baseline criteria of contra-dancer desires, and
perhaps an analogous list of 'what ECDers want' would be useful to
identify common, or truly disparate, expectations.  I'll volunteer:

Criterion:  EC dancers want variety in an evening/event program in terms
of tempo, meter, formation, and figures.

William DeRagon
Albuquerque
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:48:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:47:01 -0400
From: John Wood <johnwood-AT-
accesscable.net>
Subject: Colin Hume's "Helena"
To: ECD <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Hi, Folk:

I had the pleasure of dancing "Helena" while in
Florida just recently.

Can someone tell me:

How do I set about purchasing Colin Hume's CD
"Dances With a Difference"
and
Where can I get "the words"?

Help would be appreciated.

Cheers, John

================================================================================
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:28:52 -0800
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:

> >To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
> >watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
> >contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
> >smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
> >
> >I think I've offended enough people for today.
> >
> >Bob
> 
> 
> And your reply to this fatuous and ungenerous comment was....?

My reply was that I laughed because I thought, and still think, it's a 
funny comment, although if I have one problem with it, it's that it 
lets contra dancers off far too lightly. One of the reasons I think it's 
funny is because there is, regrettably, a grain of truth in it. I've had 
many wonderful times dancing ECD, contra and Scottish, but also 
had some pretty lousy times, sometimes because of the attitudes 
lampooned in the comment I quoted.

I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
"dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form you 
like for 'X').

I don't want to get into a big discussion about my sense of humour, 
but I genuinely believe the comment is funny, and it also says 
something about the state (real or perceived) of the ECD scene.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:58:05 -0500
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Chocolate Round O
To: ECD-AT-
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At 02:27 PM 2/18/00 -0500, CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:
Chocolate Round O (the latter having no redeeming social 
>importance IMHO)

Not to contest your HO <g>, but to clarify Chocolate Round O's origins:
Fried wrote it as a dance pattern, a sort of dancer's exercise in giving
weight.  In fact, her original name for this piece was Giving Weight.
Rather than overusing the classic dances to make a teaching point (her
words, to the best of my memory, were"grinding Childgrove into the
ground"), she instead tends to devise such dance patterns from time to
time.  I think she most likely condiders them useful rather than socially
important. 

Sharon Green
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:31:04 PST
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:30:56 -0600
From: Bob Borcherding <gapbob2-AT-
stlnet.com>
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Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
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on 2/20/00 8:28 PM, Bob Archer at bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk wrote:

> My reply was that I laughed because I thought, and still think, it's a
> funny comment, although if I have one problem with it, it's that it
> lets contra dancers off far too lightly. One of the reasons I think it's
> funny is because there is, regrettably, a grain of truth in it. I've had
> many wonderful times dancing ECD, contra and Scottish, but also
> had some pretty lousy times, sometimes because of the attitudes
> lampooned in the comment I quoted.

Over the years, I have perceived that dance groups tend to take on, as a
group, an attitude that reflects that shown by the organizer(s).  I have
observed dance leaders who have reflected the attitudes described by this
musician: 

    happy contra leader,
    smug English leader,
    righteous Scottish leader.

and the groups have tended to reflect those attitudes.  Perhaps it is not
the *dancers* that foment these ideological tendencies, but rather the dance
leadership?

-- 
Bob Borcherding, St. Louis, MO.
gapbob-AT-
stlnet.com


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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:53:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
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On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Bob Archer wrote:
> 
> I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
> nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
> "dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
> imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form you 
> like for 'X').
 I don't know just what is going on, but this sort of thing has been
cropping up on several of my lists lately... not always with so little
damage done.
  Sometimes I feel like Brian of Nazareth, crying "Shouldn't we be
struggling TOGETHER?"
  "We are, we are!"
  "Shouldn't we be struggling against the COMMON enemy?"
  "The RSCDS?"
  "No! Disco!"
  <leaping under cover as the Romans arrive>
Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

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Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:41:29 PST
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:05:56 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Will wrote: 

 "Shouldn't we be struggling against the COMMON enemy?"
  "The RSCDS?"
  "No! Disco!"

Heartfelt "hear, hear !"

agaisnt that ,and against all binary monotonous aggressive percussion that
pervades all the radio waves.

The difference between ECD, SCD, contra and everything traditional (on one
hand) and modern popular disco techno etc (on the other)?
One is for love, the other is for money.

That makes the struggle rather unequal, unfortunately.
We won't win, but we can make sure we won't be beaten -- by keeping together.

Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm     
                  (dance groups,  some new dances, cycling ...)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:41:31 PST
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:55:54 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Colin Hume's "Helena"
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 19:47 20.02.00 -0400, you wrote:

>How do I set about purchasing Colin Hume's CD
>"Dances With a Difference"

Here's a copy of a recent note from Colin:

---
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
compuserve.com>

>The book of Dances with a Difference Volume 3 is available from me 
>for 3 pounds plus 35 pence postage to England.

Please send an English cheque to:

Colin Hume
10 Cross Street
Letchworth 
Herts
SG6 4UD
England.

See my web site http://www.colinhume.freeserve.co.uk for details of all my
publications.

---


Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm     
                  (dance groups,  some new dances, cycling ...)
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:10:48 -0500 (EST)
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Dear People
please stop mail 
Thank you
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Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:41:24 PST
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:26:45 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: What makes someone take the leap?
To: ECD-AT-
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I was trying to remember what made me take the leap and try English 
after years of fanatic contra dancing.

I believe the first ECD I did was at NEFFA, on the auditorium stage. 
That sounds like a Clue solution doesn't it?

That makes me believe though that I was ready and open to try 
something new AND that some creative scheduling had increased the 
odds for me to try something new!  Ah those manipulative program 
schedulers.

Shortly after that Pat Rust taught a group of workshops in Altamont 
aimed at presenting some ECD at an Old Songs dance.  I have no 
recollection of the presentation, but I sure remember the workshops.

So I guess I had the motivation AND the opportunity.

Shortly after that I went to Eng/Amer week at Pinewoods and the rest, 
as they say, is history, including a couple of multi-week classes 
with Penelope.

But it strikes me that one criterion for ECD might be that there's a 
higher acceptance of instuction (and almost a demand for good 
teaching) both in terms of taking workshops and teaching at events. 
This of course describes the dancers' mind set rather than the dances 
themselves.

And you can see that spectrum - contra, ecd, scottish along this line as well.

All of this rambling makes me very curious about International Folk 
Dance.  The people who introduced me to contra dance led a IFD group. 
They dragged me there a couple of times.  I plain out hated it. 
Loved the concept, hated the execution.  Even then I knew why.  All 
these people doing rhythmically interesting or beautiful flowing 
dancing and apparently having a good time - but how the heck did you 
LEARN them?  They didn't have instruction unless it was something 
that someone in the group had just learned.  I was told to get behind 
the line and shadow one of the experienced dancers.

This just did not float my boat.  So when they took me to a contra 
dance and each dance was taught - well this was a good thing.

OK enough philosophical rambling for now - off to get some use out of 
this day off.

Mary Beth

Mary Beth
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:04:10 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
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Mary Beth Goodman wrote:

> I was trying to remember what made me take the leap and try English
> after years of fanatic contra dancing.
>
> I believe the first ECD I did was at NEFFA, on the auditorium stage.
> That sounds like a Clue solution doesn't it?
>
> That makes me believe though that I was ready and open to try
> something new AND that some creative scheduling had increased the
> odds for me to try something new!  Ah those manipulative program
> schedulers.
>
> Shortly after that Pat Rust taught a group of workshops in Altamont
> aimed at presenting some ECD at an Old Songs dance.  I have no
> recollection of the presentation, but I sure remember the workshops.
>
> So I guess I had the motivation AND the opportunity.
>
> Shortly after that I went to Eng/Amer week at Pinewoods and the rest,
> as they say, is history, including a couple of multi-week classes
> with Penelope.
>
> But it strikes me that one criterion for ECD might be that there's a
> higher acceptance of instuction (and almost a demand for good
> teaching) both in terms of taking workshops and teaching at events.
> This of course describes the dancers' mind set rather than the dances
> themselves.
>
> And you can see that spectrum - contra, ecd, scottish along this line as well.
>
> All of this rambling makes me very curious about International Folk
> Dance.  The people who introduced me to contra dance led a IFD group.
> They dragged me there a couple of times.  I plain out hated it.
> Loved the concept, hated the execution.  Even then I knew why.  All
> these people doing rhythmically interesting or beautiful flowing
> dancing and apparently having a good time - but how the heck did you
> LEARN them?  They didn't have instruction unless it was something
> that someone in the group had just learned.  I was told to get behind
> the line and shadow one of the experienced dancers.
>
> This just did not float my boat.  So when they took me to a contra
> dance and each dance was taught - well this was a good thing.
>
> OK enough philosophical rambling for now - off to get some use out of
> this day off.
>
> Mary Beth
>
> Mary Beth

Mary Beth: The problem with International Folk Dancing is not the instruction for
I have had some very good teachers in Folk Dancing; but the fact that Folk Dancers
and Country Dancers learn (and are taught) differently. Country Dancers learn a
repetory of figures (formations if you will) and footwork while Folk Dancers tend
to learn a dance as an entitiy. To use the Scottish terminology; Folk Dancers
learn "Dances" while country dancers learn "dancing".Thus Folk Dancers learn a
basic repetory of dances quicker than country dancers but are limited to those
dances that they have learned while country dancers take more time to learn the
basics but then have an unlimited repertory at their command.

I have often used the analogy that Folk Dancers memorize dances like a concert
singer (at least a beginning one) may memorize a song in a foreign language while
not understanding the language while Country Dancers are more like opera singers
who take the time to learn the language because they need to understand what is
going on. As far as Folk Dancing it comes from the "nature of the beast"- it is
difficult to go deeply into the culture when you are going to learn dances from a
multitude of countries in one evening. It is a tough gap to bridge.

Ben Stein


================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:01:18 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: so many cd's - follow on summary
To: ECD-AT-
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<the Assembly players CDs are mostly obscure dances.

What a saddening comment to read - we go to considerable trouble to record 
dances that have not already been recorded by lots of other bands - what 
would be the point of 6,8,10 ... recordings of,say, The Rainbow? Maybe the 
transatlantic feeling is that a core repertoire of dances is what is needed, 
with few new additions/discoveries, but that was not the impression I gained 
when in the States, where the "fresh" material I was sharing appeared to be 
very well received.
    On this side of the pond there is a distinct (and sometimes, I think, 
excessive) eagerness for fresh dances. 
    Having been one of the first bands to issue recordings on CD, we have 
always made it our mission to widen the catalogue of dances available on CD.
                                                Nicolas B., pp The Assembly 
Players.
PS I cannot think what catalogue lists "The Assembly Dances" as available on 
CD, but whatever it is, it is incorrect! There is a book of the dances, and a 
recording on Cassette only - no CD has ever been issued of this recording.  
N.B.
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:15:51 -0400
From: John Wood <johnwood-AT-
accesscable.net>
Subject: Re: so many cd's - follow on summary
To: ECD-AT-
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SallenNic-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> <the Assembly players CDs are mostly obscure dances.
>
> What a saddening comment to read - we go to considerable trouble to record
> dances that have not already been recorded by lots of other bands - what
> would be the point of 6,8,10 ... recordings of,say, The Rainbow? Maybe the
> transatlantic feeling is that a core repertoire of dances is what is needed,
> with few new additions/discoveries, but that was not the impression I gained
> when in the States, where the "fresh" material I was sharing appeared to be
> very well received.
>     On this side of the pond there is a distinct (and sometimes, I think,
> excessive) eagerness for fresh dances.
>     Having been one of the first bands to issue recordings on CD, we have
> always made it our mission to widen the catalogue of dances available on CD.
>                                                 Nicolas B., pp The Assembly
> Players.
> PS I cannot think what catalogue lists "The Assembly Dances" as available on
> CD, but whatever it is, it is incorrect! There is a book of the dances, and a
> recording on Cassette only - no CD has ever been issued of this recording.
> N.B.

 I heartily agree with Nick's above reply to criticism of his
choice of dances. ALL are stupendous!

Cheers, John
Bedford. NS

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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:33:38 -0500 (EST)
From: morganj-AT-
iupui.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Contra & Playford
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I don't have much to add about the characteristics of the dance groups,
but I have noticed some evolution of the contra dance form over the years,
and think you could say it has adopted some elements of the English
playford group and dropped some older elements that were common to both
contras and English.

The best known recent figure to migrate to contras is the gypsy: I was
surprised that contra dancers would pick up such a flirtatious figure, and
it seems to me that the callers who use it are deliberately importing CDSS
teachings about partner awareness that seem foreign to the old-style
laconic New England contra dance.  But I think I've seen a few more
figures in 90's contras that I once only saw in Playford dances, like
mirrored image dos-y-dos.  There's also an increasing complexity to the
choreography, and an emphasis on figures that flow easily into one
another, and even an emphasis on phrasing the figures to the music.

The one element I haven't seen is a return to the old contra practice of
fitting a dance to a particular tune.  In the old contra books each dance
seemed to have it's own tune, just as in Playford.  Of course, not having
danced in the 50's I don't know if this was just an artifact of putting
the dance into book form with appropriate music; it may be that the
callers of that period used any old tune for a dance just as now, and only
associated a dance with a particular tune when they published it.

 Jim Morgan
morganj-AT-
iupui.edu

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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:51:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
To: ECD-AT-
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Benjamin Stein wrote:
> > Mary Beth
> 
> Mary Beth: The problem with International Folk Dancing is not the instruction for
> I have had some very good teachers in Folk Dancing; but the fact that Folk Dancers
> and Country Dancers learn (and are taught) differently. Country Dancers learn a
> repetory of figures (formations if you will) and footwork while Folk Dancers tend
> to learn a dance as an entitiy. To use the Scottish terminology; Folk Dancers
> learn "Dances" while country dancers learn "dancing".Thus Folk Dancers learn a
> basic repetory of dances quicker than country dancers but are limited to those
> dances that they have learned while country dancers take more time to learn the
> basics but then have an unlimited repertory at their command.
  Just so. What frustrated me with "international" folk dance was that
there was no choreographic _vocabulary_, so I was constantly thrown back
on brute memory.

Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:24:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

[snip]

> What is "contra" dancing now?

[snip again]

 . . .  The swing is the goal,
> the endpoint of each sequence of figures!
>
> It sounds a bit as though I am seriously out of date on that.

Just leave out the sequence of figures now ... }8-^)

[snip]

> Criterion 1:  "contra" dancers want continuous movement.  They don't want
> to stand around before the dance, or during it.
> 
> Anybody else want to contribute here?

Where does this illusion that everybody's moving all the time in
contradances come from?  There are lots of figures which involve only the
women, or only the men, or only one couple, while the others stand there
or twirl their thumbs or do a bit of swing with partner/neighbor/person in
the neighboring line to pass the time, and when I get these folks into an
ECD which really does have someone moving all the time, they really notice
it.  

Dances with contra corners in them leave lots of folks standing around.
They often start with a half figure-8 to get the active couple proper,
during which time the inactives are truly that; then in the contra
corners, the inactives are involved only 1/4 of the time -- half of the
time only half ot the inactives are involved, and the other half of teh
time, the actives are turning each other, so the inactives are standing
around again.  Then the actives usually swing to end that time through --
but still this is a fairly popular contra figure, although sometimes it is
considered too "advanced" for some dancers.

Similarly, when the two men allemande left once and a half, or the two
women do-si-do once and a half, or some other way of using up the music to
cross over to swing your partner, the others are left standing there to
wait for them to get done with it so they can get on with it.  Yet these
are _very_ common figures in the current contra repertoire.

And remarkably few contradancers, when waiting out at the top of the set
during a contra-corners figure, participate in the contra-corners the same
way that they do at the bottom, when they could plunge in and dance with
ghosts above them, but at least keeping the first inactive couple as
active as the rest of the inactives.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:30:48 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
To: ECD-AT-
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At 11:04 AM -0500 2/21/2000, Benjamin Stein wrote:
>The problem with International Folk Dancing is not the instruction for
>I have had some very good teachers in Folk Dancing; but the fact 
>that Folk Dancers and Country Dancers learn (and are taught) 
>differently.

Yes exactly my point.  I think if one's goal is to attract new 
dancers to ECD (isn't that sort of where this started?) it would be 
helpful to identify why people are drawn to different possibilities.

Then you can at least try the most likely places first and realize 
that you'll have less success in other arenas.

I doubt people would go to IFD sessions just because it's the only 
game in town, all the while thinking, even subconsciously - hate this 
hate this hate this.  People generally vote with their feet, even if 
it means not doing something that is similar to what they would 
prefer.  A non-dancer for instance might wonder - well so what if 
there's no ECD in the area - there are two IFD groups, why not go 
there to dance?

Having said all this, there are people I know who do all sorts of 
dancing and do it well and enjoy it all.  And if I had to choose a 
characteristic of those folks - it would be that they pursue 
instruction in all the dance areas they are active in.  They sign up 
for classes and workshops and weekends, not just to dance but to 
learn new things.

Mary Beth

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:55:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Mary Beth and Alan Winston both have said some things very well which echo
my own thoughts but hadn't put into words so well:

On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Mary Beth Goodman wrote:

[snip]

> So it takes a certain person at a certain point in his/her life to 
> say - I'm gonna try that.  Just as it would for a person to say  - 
> I'm going to try downhill skiing after years of cross country.
> 
> I think people often come to English from Contra by experiencing an 
> ECD that is thrown into a dance somewhere - or someone making a deal 
> out of doing The Bishop  etc during a contra dance.   Or they see it 
> somewhere and it intrigues them.
> 
> Making it more familiar to them won't necessarily overcome the human 
> nature problem of sticking with what you know and enjoy.  It's 
> different and the person has to be at a point of being open and ready 
> to try something new.

and

On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
> I think it's a misguided effort to compose an English program that's as
> close to contemporary contra as possible, both because (as Mary Beth
> suggests) why should they bother? That's what they're already getting - and
> because if that's what hooks them they'll be disappointed when they come 
> to your English dance and don't get it.

[snip]

> Some people, as I've mentioned before, prefer different things.  

[snip]

> The people you really want to hook are the ones who are going to love
> English dancing.  The best chance of hooking them is to show them a
> fairly true picture of English dance, not one distorted to make it as much 
> like contra as possible.  (This also gives you your best chance of catching
> your local dance gypsies, who do any kind of dancing that floats by.)
> 
> So put together a program that delights you and has a lot more dancing than
> teaching; don't try to be just like contra; know (as Mary suggests) that 
> it'll delight them, and you'll have a chance.

I would second these remarks wholeheartedly.  Present ECD as
straightforwardly and honestly for the pleasure and joy which you get out
of it, and do your best to get the feel that you most enjoy, and convey
it to others.  Try to explain briefly and succinctly, when you want things
done in a particular way, why that is improtant to what you are aiming
for, particularly in figures where there are differences between contra
and ECD, as in back-to-backs and casts, but do this in a way that leaves
room for the mistakes and uncertainties of folks new to the type and
style.  Expect that not everyone will be equally enthusiastic about this,
and accept that gracefully, not with resentment or arrogance.  It is right
for some folks, but it's their call, not yours.  The best you can do is
show them what you love about it in a welcoming, friendly, and supportive
atmosphere.  

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:24:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:26:07 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Chocolate Round O
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 09:58 PM 2/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>At 02:27 PM 2/18/00 -0500, CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:
>Chocolate Round O (the latter having no redeeming social 
>>importance IMHO)
>
>Not to contest your HO <g>, but to clarify Chocolate Round O's origins:
>Fried wrote it as a dance pattern, a sort of dancer's exercise in giving
>weight.  In fact, her original name for this piece was Giving Weight.
>Rather than overusing the classic dances to make a teaching point (her
>words, to the best of my memory, were"grinding Childgrove into the
>ground"), she instead tends to devise such dance patterns from time to
>time.  I think she most likely condiders them useful rather than socially
>important. 
>
>Sharon Green
 
I agree with Sharon as to the usefulness of this dance.  I haven't used
many of Fried's other teaching dances, but this one I like because it
allows people to focus on two hand and four hand turns.  Actually I use it
for letting go of weight, rather than giving weight, since I find  most
beginners, and particularly contra dancers,  bend their elbows and pull too
hard on two hand turns.  So I work on long, relaxed arms in a beginner
workshop, and this dance has lots of practice in it.  The tune has a calm
leisurely feel that helps reduce tension.  

I also use it for connections between figures. I explain that the goal is
to flow from one figure to the next seamlessly, timing each figure so that
it exactly fills the phrase and puts you in position for the next figure
without rushing and without waiting. 

But in addition to being useful as a teaching dance, its a nice easy opener
for an evening, too, with its simple patterns and pleasant tune, and I've
used it as a relaxing dance between two challenging ones, too.    

Victoria Bestock
  


Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies..... 
See the portfolio from Northwest New Year's Camp.....
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:54:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:54:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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web1603.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > >To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
> > >watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
> > >contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
> > >smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
> > >
> > >I think I've offended enough people for today.
> > >
> > >Bob
> > 

It sounds to me as though your friend is seeing what she expects to
see.  I always see radiant joy on the faces of other English dancers.


> I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
> nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
> "dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
> imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form
> you 
> like for 'X').

Isn't there something just a tad inconsistent in this coming from
someone who's just dissed the entire U.S. English-dancing community
for not doing things exactly the way they're done in England?

=====
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Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:00:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:58:44 -0500
From: gaff-AT-
neu.edu (Terence Gaffney)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[129.10.72.165]>
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Some more dances to try: "Yellow Stocking" done with a crossed hands, buzz
step turn, "The Ragg" and "Elverton Grove".

I once had a conversation with Lisa Greenleaf about which ECD dances she
tried with contra dancers, and she said she had a lot of success with the
slow, flowing dances.  she also mentioned that she knew of one group of
contra dancers who spent a long time learning "Hudson Barn" but who really
liked it when they got it.

best,
 terry


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:48:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:48:12 -0500 (EST)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: so many cd's/The Assembly Players
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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As a dancer (not an historian or musician or other kind of authority) I'm 
extremely fond of my 3 AP recordings: the CD's "Purcell, Encore" and"Playford 
from the New World" and  the cassette "A Purcell Ball". The sounds are bright 
(not at all IMO, "plinky" as someone earlier mentioned) and particularly 
danceable. I especially appreciate the fact that there are tunes here one 
finds seldom if ever anywhere else. 

Judy Grunberg
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:56:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:56:43 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Chocolate Round O
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/21/0 2:35:59 AM, you wrote:

<<Fried wrote it as a dance pattern>>

As I suffered through this dance last week, I noticed that it actually WAS a 
rather nice dance pattern. It's the tune which makes it such a dreadful 
dance. 

Carl
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:28:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:28:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net> wrote:
       <<snip>>
> But it strikes me that one criterion for ECD might be that
> there's a 
> higher acceptance of instuction (and almost a demand for good 
> teaching) both in terms of taking workshops and teaching at
> events. 
> This of course describes the dancers' mind set rather than the
> dances 
> themselves.
> 
Dudley Laufman used to say that he was hired to call a public
dance and if you wanted to learn you should go to a class. The
problem is that people *won't* go to a class, if one is made
available to them. Ted Sanella would occasionally go out on the
floor and breifly demonstrate how to do something. Most callers
won't do that, and many that I've talked to won't even consider
changing the wording of how they teach to give the dancers some
concept of the music fitting the dance. (e.g. Instead of "Go
down the middle, turn, come back and cast off," tell them how
much time they have to do each part of that instruction.)
Certainly, most Contra dancers do not tolerate very much
teaching; they seem to think they already know it all. I've
encountered many of them who don't even want to shut up long
enough to hear the instructions for the walk through. After
being pushed through it by those around them, they still don't
have a clue as to the figures for the dance they are about to
do. 

> All of this rambling makes me very curious about International
> Folk 
> Dance.  The people who introduced me to contra dance led a IFD
> group. 
> <snip> ...but how the heck did you 
> LEARN them?   ...I was told to get
> behind 
> the line and shadow one of the experienced dancers.
> 
> This just did not float my boat...
> 

That has been the main reason why I've done very little
International dancing over the years. Even if the dance is
taught once, it is never reviewed again for those who didn't get
it the first time. 

I have always enjoyed watching people (such as Paul and Victoria
in Seattle) who are very good at it, but the teaching method of
most groups has been much of reason that I avoid International
more than a Contra dancer avoiding ECD.

The director of my Scandinavian performing group has been an
International dancer for years. When she teaches Scandinavian at
the recreational group, the instructions are not clear sometimes
and I see some of the same expectation of picking it up by
osmosis. The problem is that you can't learn turning couple
dances by mimicking because you can't watch and turn at the same
time. There are people who never come to the teaching sessions
and it is painful to watch them drag a partner around while
trying to watch someone who knows the dance.
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Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net> wrote:
      <<snip>>
> Having said all this, there are people I know who do all sorts
> of 
> dancing and do it well and enjoy it all.  And if I had to
> choose a 
> characteristic of those folks - it would be that they pursue 
> instruction in all the dance areas they are active in.  They
> sign up 
> for classes and workshops and weekends, not just to dance but
> to 
> learn new things.
> 

I agree that a weekend should be approached as a learning
opportunity. Very often I find that Contra weekends are treated
by many as just one big dance party and there is very little
instruction offered. Some callers are afraid of offending the
"experienced" people by teaching too much, but as one of the
most experienced dancers on the floor (at least in Portland), I
have to say that taking time to teach the clueless to dance
better can only enhance the quality of dancing for all of us. I
have attended many week-long and weekend camps in which the
daytime was for learning and the evening was for applying what
you learned in a social atmosphere.

I have to say that I resent the sloppy way many people approach
dancing. I have worked hard to learn to dance well and people
who make no effort to learn make it less enjoyable.

Andy Peterson
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Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:49:24 -0500
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Chocolate Round O
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210100b4d796fe5170-AT-
[166.84.193.89]>
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References: <4a.1e9fa97.25e31cab-AT-
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At 5:56 PM -0500 2/21/00, CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/21/0 2:35:59 AM, you wrote:
>
><<Fried wrote it as a dance pattern>>
>
>As I suffered through this dance last week, I noticed that it actually WAS a
>rather nice dance pattern. It's the tune which makes it such a dreadful
>dance.

That's probably a matter between caller and band. Fried has been
_seriously_ distressed by what some bands do with the melody as
it was originally presented (in effect, a skeleton melody such as
one expects in 17th-18th century sources, with an expectation of
the players using tasteful and educated embellishments.) It turns
out that ECD bands are not all that savvy about earlier musical
usage. (surprise, surprise!)

The more recent version (in _Ease and Elegance_) gives more aid
to a modern band. Basically, the tune _should_ have a smooth flow
to it that reflects the pattern of the exercise, and its intent
to exhibit weight and continuity of motion. I personally have been
astonished at the way bands have mangled the simpler statement of
the melody that Fried originally published.

Perhaps you have never heard the tune played well?  I certainly
"suffer" when subjected to an ill-judged "arrangement", even when
I know the tune and the dance and love them both.

"Chocolate Round O" is a delightful exemplar (musically and choreo-
graphically) of a tradition of teaching by having fun. That you have
had unfortunate experience of its having been done poorly strikes
me as unfortunate, but you seem all too willing to insist that your
take in a particular setting is sufficient to characterize the
dance, despite others' very different experience.

I suggest that you allow some "weight" (in the sense of opinion)
to the various responses you have received urging a different view
than yours of this particular dance. Maybe something has been
missing in the cases where you have been exposed to it.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:49:24 -0500
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Chocolate Round O
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210100b4d796fe5170-AT-
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At 5:56 PM -0500 2/21/00, CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/21/0 2:35:59 AM, you wrote:
>
><<Fried wrote it as a dance pattern>>
>
>As I suffered through this dance last week, I noticed that it actually WAS a
>rather nice dance pattern. It's the tune which makes it such a dreadful
>dance.

That's probably a matter between caller and band. Fried has been
_seriously_ distressed by what some bands do with the melody as
it was originally presented (in effect, a skeleton melody such as
one expects in 17th-18th century sources, with an expectation of
the players using tasteful and educated embellishments.) It turns
out that ECD bands are not all that savvy about earlier musical
usage. (surprise, surprise!)

The more recent version (in _Ease and Elegance_) gives more aid
to a modern band. Basically, the tune _should_ have a smooth flow
to it that reflects the pattern of the exercise, and its intent
to exhibit weight and continuity of motion. I personally have been
astonished at the way bands have mangled the simpler statement of
the melody that Fried originally published.

Perhaps you have never heard the tune played well?  I certainly
"suffer" when subjected to an ill-judged "arrangement", even when
I know the tune and the dance and love them both.

"Chocolate Round O" is a delightful exemplar (musically and choreo-
graphically) of a tradition of teaching by having fun. That you have
had unfortunate experience of its having been done poorly strikes
me as unfortunate, but you seem all too willing to insist that your
take in a particular setting is sufficient to characterize the
dance, despite others' very different experience.

I suggest that you allow some "weight" (in the sense of opinion)
to the various responses you have received urging a different view
than yours of this particular dance. Maybe something has been
missing in the cases where you have been exposed to it.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:40:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:37:50 -0500
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000101bf7cdd$cfa29aa0$7bd5bfa8-AT-
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To return the compliment:  Well said, Barbara!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of Barbara Ruth
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 3:54 PM
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.




--- Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > >To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
> > >watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
> > >contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
> > >smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
> > >
> > >I think I've offended enough people for today.
> > >
> > >Bob
> > 

It sounds to me as though your friend is seeing what she expects to
see.  I always see radiant joy on the faces of other English dancers.


> I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
> nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
> "dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
> imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form
> you 
> like for 'X').

Isn't there something just a tad inconsistent in this coming from
someone who's just dissed the entire U.S. English-dancing community
for not doing things exactly the way they're done in England?

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
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Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:31:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:58:56 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: International Folk Dance
To: English Article <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <017301bf7ce5$eb60ae00$a3f7490c-AT-
pavilion>
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Following up on the discussion on the English dance list about International
Folk dance being hard to learn - we're fortunate here in Houston to have a
beginners night each week where all the dances are broken down and taught -
starting the evening with the simplest and working up (with none of them
being impossible for new people) - I've noticed that dances with
similarities are chosen often to make it easy for new people to learn - and
that a number of the dances done one week are repeated for the next two or
three weeks - I enjoy International dancing but don't get there as often as
I'd like.  Having said all that, personally I think I'd learn them faster if
you had a night of doing only Greek dances, and a night of only Hungarian
etc. - since each country has it's own styling, similar step patterns and
music.  The International Folk dance group in Houston works really hard to
help new people learn the dances and they're a fun bunch.
Dianna
P. S. I heard that the International folk dance workshop that just finished
up this weekend taught a Scottish dance called "1314" which is not that easy
and they picked it up quite quickly.
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
Scottish Country Dancing and More:
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:46:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:46:04 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Chocolate Round O
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 2/21/00 8:51:02 PM, you wrote:

<<Perhaps you have never heard the tune played well?  ...
I suggest that you allow some "weight" (in the sense of opinion)
to the various responses you have received urging a different view
than yours of this particular dance. Maybe something has been
missing in the cases where you have been exposed to it.>>

You could certainly be right, and I try to maintain an open mind about it 
whenever the dance is called, but I have danced it several times, always with 
good musicians. Yes, they may have mangled it, but as a ECD musician myself, 
I must say I thought it was the tune, not the players, and I think I can 
usually tell the difference. As usual in these issues, it often comes down to 
a matter of taste. 

Carl 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:50:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:50:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra & Playford
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <54.18172c5.25e3a7e7-AT-
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In a message dated Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:34:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, morganj-AT-
iupui.edu writes:

 
> The one element I haven't seen is a return to the old contra practice of
> fitting a dance to a particular tune.  In the old contra books each dance
> seemed to have it's own tune, just as in Playford.  


The only modern contra example I am aware of is Wizard's Walk, which Charlie Fenton called at last night's Dawn dance in Santa Cruz.

Reine Wonite

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:51:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:57:23 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <00b001bf7d12$d6314620$9e22a3d1-AT-
gloria>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <v04220801b4d70611aee6-AT-
[206.72.193.238]> <38B161FA.D4772EC8-AT-
globalnetisp.net> <v04220802b4d724fff335-AT-
[206.72.193.199]>

While on sabbatical one term, I found myself in Kingston,
Ontario, with no Contra, no IFD, no ECD, nothing that I knew.
What I ended up learning was Scottish country dance (I still
can't point my toes to their satisfaction) and South Indian
Classical Dance (bare feet, a lot of squatting, performing
with red toenails and rouged heels).

My experience shows that if you want &/or need to dance and
you have or can make the time, some formerly unthinkable form
of dance becomes possible and enjoyable, at least for the
length of the emergency.

Gloria Krusemeyer

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:24:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:29:55 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: walking swings again
To: "\"Stephen D. Corrsin\"" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>, ECD List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <00ed01bf7d17$61c54020$9e22a3d1-AT-
gloria>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20000219184447.97741.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>

Steve -

Yes, I understand, and spend much time reassuring newbies that
they don't have to pretend they're on a scooter when trying to
swing, nor tryout for the rockettes when doing a balance.
Twirls are optional on dosidos, courtesy turns, and Rory
O'More slides.  An elegant courtesy turn with a long gaze at
your partner can be much more rewarding than yet another
twirl.

Simplify the dance down to something manageable, let them
manage it, THEN add in the ornaments.  Ornaments work much
better when they're hung from a solid frame.   But how many
contra dancers could dance absolutely straight, plain vanilla?

Gloria Krusemeyer
Northfield, MN

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen D. Corrsin" <corrsin1-AT-
hotmail.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 12:44 PM
Subject: walking swings again



If I were in a crabby mood I'd suggest that I'd been willfully
misunderstood
about the usefulness of walking swings. Again: when I find
myself dancing
with beginners (or not-so-beginners but still awkward
swingers) who do a
weird sideways hopping or sidling during swings -- come on,
you know just
what I mean -- I always tell them to walk, that it always
works. And yes,
you can walk in time to fast music -- just get the tempo
right. As for "you
cannot walking step swing fast enough" arguments... nuts.
That's like "oh,
you must skip through this figure, or you'll never get there
in time" which
is the bunk for me as well, but then I believe in walking
briskly.

If I find myself with a partner who seems capable of handling
a good brisk
buzzstep, well peachy,  I comply. But unless you're
intentionally avoiding
beginners -- yes, you know who you are, you center line
elitists -- you know
that many people are pretty poor buzzsteppers. Better a good
walk than a
bizarre hop'n'sidle. ("Balance and hop'n'sidle the one
below!")

crabbily, because I couldn't go to the sword ale this year,
and as I've said
before the root of all ECD = sword dancing,
Steve Corrsin
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:22:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:22:39 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38B2636F.9A22C9DB-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
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References: <20000221205415.2372.qmail-AT-
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Barbara Ruth wrote:
> 
> --- Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > ...
> 
> Isn't there something just a tad inconsistent in this coming from
> someone who's just dissed the entire U.S. English-dancing community
> for not doing things exactly the way they're done in England?
> 

Surely the one thing Bob never does is dissing.  He is always saying
"someone out there likes it, even if you don't see anything in
it yourself".

He (and I) have certainly observed that "English" dance in the US
is different from "English" dance in England.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:22:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:59:11 +0000
From: John Meechan <johnm-AT-
jma-nuneaton.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001101bf7d1b$7910db00$8c14883e-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <20000221205415.2372.qmail-AT-
web1603.mail.yahoo.com>

It makes a change from the US telling the UK how to do it!!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.


> 
> 
> --- Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > >To close, an observation from a musician friend of mine. She
> > > >watches the faces of the dancers as she plays and says that the
> > > >contra dancers look flushed and happy, the English dancers look
> > > >smug and the Scottish dancers look righteous.
> > > >
> > > >I think I've offended enough people for today.
> > > >
> > > >Bob
> > > 
> 
> It sounds to me as though your friend is seeing what she expects to
> see.  I always see radiant joy on the faces of other English dancers.
> 
> 
> > I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
> > nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
> > "dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
> > imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form
> > you 
> > like for 'X').
> 
> Isn't there something just a tad inconsistent in this coming from
> someone who's just dissed the entire U.S. English-dancing community
> for not doing things exactly the way they're done in England?
> 
> =====
> Do you know about the Hunger Site?
> Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
> Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
> No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
> Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
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> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:45:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:47:49 -0800
From: Ric Goldman <timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dances in Salt Lake area?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001701bf7d4c$2b8b5000$9e278ad1-AT-
ASSOCIATION>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Folks,

I'm in Salt Lake thru to the weekend.  Are there any ECD, contra, or IFD
gatherings that anyone knows about?  To save noise on the list, you may want to
respond direct to me only.

Thanx, Ric Goldman
timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:57:35 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:57:29 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dances in Salt Lake area?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200002221557.JAA28703-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Ric Goldman writes:
> 
> I'm in Salt Lake thru to the weekend.  Are there any ECD, contra, or IFD
> gatherings that anyone knows about?  To save noise on the list, you may want to
> respond direct to me only.

   According to the Utah Contradance page at
"http://www.aros.net/~utdrews/dance.html", there is a contra dance this
Saturday.  I don't know who will be calling, but one of the callers in
that area is Dave Cottle, who is a fine caller.  He and I both started
calling at the same time back when he was a grad student here in Illinois.
If you run into him tell him "Hi" for me.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:58:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:58:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: walking swings again
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222165808.20634.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com> wrote:
> ...But how many
> contra dancers could dance absolutely straight, plain vanilla?
> 

Several years ago I went to Brasstown for the Christmas dance
week. Wild Asparagus was there and Bob Dalsemer (before he
became a permanent fixture at the Folk School), Steve Hickman,
Ira Bernstein and others. Brad Foster did a Contra class in the
morning and the first day of class he said that he would like to
see good basic dancing without the fancy twirls and spins. It
was a wonderful week of dancing for everyone, maybe *because* we
were concentrating on basics and dancing *with* the people
around us instead of spinning off into self-centered oblivion.

There has been a lot said over the years about men "cranking"
women around in a spin when they don't want to be spun. (I
remember Genny Shimers' comment on this years ago was, "I
resist.") From my perspective, there is nothing more rude than
having some woman I have never seen before suddenly wrench my
arm out of the socket because she wants to spin. I generally do
*not* do spins with people unless I have danced with them enough
to know their abilities. 
__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:10:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:09:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222170917.23001.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Will wrote: 
> 
>  "Shouldn't we be struggling against the COMMON enemy?"
>   "The RSCDS?"
>   "No! Disco!"
>
--- M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr> wrote: 
> Heartfelt "hear, hear !"
> 
> agaisnt that ,and against all binary monotonous aggressive
> percussion that
> pervades all the radio waves.
> 
> The difference between ECD, SCD, contra and everything
> traditional (on one
> hand) and modern popular disco techno etc (on the other)?
> One is for love, the other is for money.
> 
> That makes the struggle rather unequal, unfortunately.
> We won't win, but we can make sure we won't be beaten -- by
> keeping together.
> 

I've often had the thought recently that the only reason our
wonderful musicians aren't making millions is because there is
no "media hype" behind their music. Many of them certainly have
more talent than those media icons who use electronics to make
up for their lack of talent. 

Where would ECD and other folk dancing be if we had the media
blasting out *our* music??

Andy in Portland
__________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:22:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:22:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222172204.22660.qmail-AT-
web3302.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- William DeRagon <wderagon-AT-
juno.com> wrote:
> The concurrent threads of "ECD/Playford for a contra crowd"
> and "Contra
> against ECD" have been useful in highlighting the expectations
> of contra
> dancers.  In may cases, however, the expectations of EC
> dancers have been
> assumed to be 'understood' by the list members.  Emily and
> Mary Beth
> began listing some baseline criteria of contra-dancer desires,
> and
> perhaps an analogous list of 'what ECDers want' would be
> useful to
> identify common, or truly disparate, expectations.  I'll
> volunteer:
> 
> Criterion:  EC dancers want variety in an evening/event
> program in terms
> of tempo, meter, formation, and figures.
> 

At ECD you won't find people groaning "Oh no, not a square!"
when you tell them to form sets for Newcastle. They also
willingly take hands-six or form three-couple sets when asked to
do so.

I once tried to call a dance by Dudley Laufman that had multiple
swings in it. It was a triple-minor longways and I absolutely
could not get the idea of "hands six from the top" across to the
dancers. Norb Spencer bailed me out by starting up Petronella.
That wouldn't work in Portland because we don't do the old
standards often enough for people to know what to do to that
music.

Andy in Portland
__________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:59:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:53:46 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: teaching sensitivity
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b04b4d878a6a6cc-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>There has been a lot said over the years about men "cranking"
>women around in a spin when they don't want to be spun. (I
>remember Genny Shimers' comment on this years ago was, "I
>resist.") From my perspective, there is nothing more rude than
>having some woman I have never seen before suddenly wrench my
>arm out of the socket because she wants to spin.

We are having a contra dance workshop in Salt Lake City this weekend (I
have written to Ric Goldman who posted asking about dances here, btw) and I
am one of the callers.

I was thinking about addressing this very issue, and would love some
suggestions on how to do it without being preachy, and without sounding as
if I hate being twirled myself.  Truth to tell, I _do_ hate being twirled
by some people, but love being twirled by others.  Since I can hardly
mention this in our small and close-knit group, what I want to teach is
sensitivity to your partner.  I've got a couple of ideas, but am not sure
how well they will work in a crowd which rarely gets much actual teaching.

I thought I might address "listening" to your partner/neighbour's body
language, using a dance where an allemande can go half, once, 1 1/2 or 2x
round with different and interesting consequences (Amicable Settlement).  I
could also use this to address the issue of variety.  It's fun to go round
2x when the dance specifies once, but if you do it every time it gets
boring.  In the next dance I could apply the same techniques to the ladies
chain - it's fun to twirl, it's fun to courtesy turn, it's fun to try and
detect what your partner wants this time.

Any more ideas on how to get this point across with brevity but emphatically?

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:42:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:41:53 -0800
From: "Hamilton, Bruce" <hamilton-AT-
exch.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Request for Syllabus Ideas
To: "'ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <D9FF5B54A89AD31198A1009027B7086A0F8576-AT-
alex2.hpl.hp.com>
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I am putting together a workshop for beginning ECD callers. If you have
opinions about what should be in, or not in, such a thing, please write me
at <bhamilton-AT-
macconnect.com>. Don't write to the list unless you want to
start a discussion here. I'm interested in everything, especially:

* Beginning callers and callers-to be: if you could take such a workshop,
what would you like to get out of it? What areas can you use help with in
your calling right now? Where do you live? Are you the only caller in your
area? Do you have (or can you assemble) a band? What length would you expect
a workshop to be (an evening, a weekend, a week, a fortnight, a
correspondence course, etc.)?

* Musicians: what would you like me to include? What seems to give new
callers the most difficulty in working with you? What gives you the most
difficulty in working with them?

* Experienced callers: what do you wish you had known sooner? What help
early on would have made your path smoother?

* Dancers: what's it like helping a new caller find his/her feet? What skill
do you wish they would develop faster? What could they ask you to do (or put
up with) that you would be glad to, to help them grow?

* Caller trainers: what do you teach? What things are the most important? Do
you have any material you are willing to share with me?

Thanks.

(By the way, I *love* the threads here -- appealing to contra dancers, the
way IFDancers learn (I'm teaching folk dancers next month!), etc. But I
barely have time to read, let alone contribute)

  -Bruce

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Hamilton			Agilent Technologies, Inc.  MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10151
Fax   650-852-8092		Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
bruce_hamilton-AT-
agilent.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:43:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:40:32 -0500
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000201bf7d64$4c4dc530$91d4bfa8-AT-
g9tfz.MITRE.org>
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Folks interested in actually seeing the basic structure of the contra dance
they're doing might consider dance camps, weekends, and other events
sponsored by the Lloyd Shaw Foundation (which, I believe, is now an
affiliate of CDSS).

Howard and I have only attended a Thanksgiving weekend event (twice), so I
can't speak for all their activities, but when we have danced with them we
have found the dancing to be lively, straightforward,  and well-phrased.
Gracious manners and a dress code complete the picture.

Pat

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:59:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:59:09 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <96.16a26a1.25e4367d-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 2/22/0 5:15:23 PM, you wrote:

<<Where would ECD and other folk dancing be if we had the media
blasting out *our* music??>>

I think I know. I just attended a performance of Riverdance. Fortunately 
someone else paid for the ($54 balcony!) tickets. They did some traditional 
Irish music, added about six drummers, and amplified the whole mess to 
migrainous rock-concert levels. I'm just as happy keeping the media's grubby 
hands off the good stuff. 

Carl Friedman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:00:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:57:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: teaching sensitivity
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <69.1744a8d.25e435fc-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated Tue, 22 Feb 2000  1:00:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) writes:

Truth to tell, I _do_ hate being twirled
> by some people, but love being twirled by others.  Since I can hardly
> mention this in our small and close-knit group, what I want to teach is
> sensitivity to your partner.  I've got a couple of ideas, but am not sure
> how well they will work in a crowd which rarely gets much actual teaching.

I'm one of those folks who varies in my enjoyment of twirling - sometimes it's a matter of the other person's styling, sometimes I feel more like flirting than twirling, sometimes the floor is too sticky for twirling, and (rarely) sometimes I'm feeling a mite out-of-sorts and want to dance more conservatively for a while.
 
This may not be the sort of response you asked for, Emma, but many years ago, I was at a contra styling workshop where resistence to twirling was addressed quite nicely.  

The trick is in how the woman presents her left hand to the gent.  If she is willing to be twirled, she offers her hand palm down or thumb down.  This makes it easy for the woman to put their joined hands on top of her head with her fingers curled around the man's.  If she doesn't want to be twirled, she offers her hand thumb up.  Men can be aware of this convention, of course, but more importantly, in the thumbs-up position, the ergonomics of the woman's arm and shoulder are best able to resist the man's attempt to raise her arm, esp if she keeps her elbow close to her body.  Try it!

I imagine the man who prefers not to twirl can offer his hand to the woman thumbs up as well, taking advantage of the same ergonomics. 

Another way (one I figured out on my own) for a woman to by-pass undesired twirling is to come in close to the man *without* offering him her hand, and at the last moment, slip her arm around his waist for a cast-around - maintaining eye contact all the while, of course.  My experience has been that men are delighted (as well as a bit surprised) by this, to where they don't mind missing a chance to twirl.

Hope this helps.

Reine Wonite
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:36:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:26:39 -0500
From: Lou Vosteen <lvosteen-AT-
widomaker.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: teaching sensitivity
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[206.246.249.226]>
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Emma said, in part:

>>There has been a lot said over the years about men "cranking"
>>women around in a spin when they don't want to be spun. (I
>>remember Genny Shimers' comment on this years ago was, "I
>>resist.") From my perspective, there is nothing more rude than
>>having some woman I have never seen before suddenly wrench my
>>arm out of the socket because she wants to spin.
>

>I was thinking about addressing this very issue, and would love some
>suggestions on how to do it without being preachy, and without sounding as
>if I hate being twirled myself.  Truth to tell, I _do_ hate being twirled
>by some people, but love being twirled by others.  Since I can hardly
>mention this in our small and close-knit group, what I want to teach is
>sensitivity to your partner.  I've got a couple of ideas, but am not sure
>how well they will work in a crowd which rarely gets much actual teaching.
-------
I think it was Ted Sannella, if my memory serves me correctly, who was
teaching a contra class at Pinewoods some years back. He simply told
everyone that twirling is a woman's prerogative. If she wants to be
twirled, she should give a signal to her partner by starting to raise her
arm. If she doesn't, a Gentleman (or partner) will respect her wishes and
not try to twirl her.

A simple statement such as that will probably suffice for most people.
However there are always a few who believe that twirling at every
opportunity is the "right" thing to do (or perhaps Their right to do) and
therefore they will do it no matter what is said.

Good luck.

Lou


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:02:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:59:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222195915.11504.qmail-AT-
web1611.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> Gracious manners and a dress code complete the picture.

Dress codes - now there's another topic that's been waiting to be
opened up.
One of the things that I thought really contributed to the wonderful
atmosphere at Pinewoods English Week last summer was Gene's repeated
recommendations or requests to people to dress a little more nicely
than usual for the evening dances (something I had planned to mention
in my never completed evaluation, Gene).  I know that we, as a
community have no wish to go back to the rigid dress code of previous
generations, but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung too far in the
opposite direction to casual and even less, dress, at all times.  To
me a dance is a festive event, something out of the daily routine, a
time that is special and joyous, whether it's a Ball, the weekly
local dance, or an evening among many at camp, and one of the ways
both of making something feel festive and marking the fact that it is
not ordinary time, is to dress differently than one does during
routine time.

I realize that this is easier for women to do then men, as we have a
greater range clothing style to choose from.  However, even for those
who do not want to dress a little above ordinary standards, what  is
worn by some people at dances nowadays is, in my opinion way below
what should be considered acceptable.  Too often looking around at a
dance, it feels more like a gym than a scene of celebration. I
remember Fried's reaction recently at a mixed contra/English dance,
to the dancer who typically wears a towl hanging around his waist,
loincloth style.  And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn Dance
I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance outfit. 
We're talking metallic bra cups and straps here.  There was no place
on this woman above the waist that a partner could have placed a hand
for a swing or courtesy turn where it would have encountered cloth
rather than sweaty, bare skin. Maybe men actually like that - I'd be
interested to hear if you do.  All I could think, looking at her, was
how grateful I was that she'd never ended up in a set I was dancing
in because I wouldn't have wanted to touch her.  I saw her during a
break being complimented on this outfit by a fellow who thought that
it being a break meant it was appropriate for him to cool off by
removing his shirt and sitting there bare-chested - and for the sake
of the scenic environment, he should not have.  It may be culturally
allowable for men to appear bare-chested in public in some settings,
but from a taste standpoint, for anywhere outside a beach or
construction site the general rule should be, any man who does not
happen to be Tom Cruise, don't do it.  The same goes for tank tops on
men.  This may open me up to charges of inconsistancy since I
personally wear tanks tops when I dance, but sexist and unfair though
it may be, tank tops are different for men and women (the guys get to
go bare-chested on the beach, so live with it).  Male tank tops are
not formal wear.  They are not even informal wear.  They are gym
wear, that is what they look like, and it isn't a look that
complements the atmosphere of a dance.  I would like to see a general
rule adopted that anything someone feels comfortable wearing for the
for the beach or gym, is not appropriate for a dance.

That's my opinion.  I'm curious to hear what other people think.

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:31:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JM7I4ZUTXK95QXLB-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Barbara Ruth  wrote:


I realize that this is easier for women to do then men, as we have a
greater range clothing style to choose from.  However, even for those
who do not want to dress a little above ordinary standards, what  is
worn by some people at dances nowadays is, in my opinion way below
what should be considered acceptable.  Too often looking around at a
dance, it feels more like a gym than a scene of celebration. I
remember Fried's reaction recently at a mixed contra/English dance,
to the dancer who typically wears a towl hanging around his waist,
loincloth style.  And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn Dance
I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance outfit. 
We're talking metallic bra cups and straps here.  There was no place
on this woman above the waist that a partner could have placed a hand
for a swing or courtesy turn where it would have encountered cloth
rather than sweaty, bare skin. Maybe men actually like that - I'd be
interested to hear if you do.  All I could think, looking at her, was
how grateful I was that she'd never ended up in a set I was dancing
in because I wouldn't have wanted to touch her.  I saw her during a
break being complimented on this outfit by a fellow who thought that
it being a break meant it was appropriate for him to cool off by
removing his shirt and sitting there bare-chested - and for the sake
of the scenic environment, he should not have.  It may be culturally
allowable for men to appear bare-chested in public in some settings,
but from a taste standpoint, for anywhere outside a beach or
construction site the general rule should be, any man who does not
happen to be Tom Cruise, don't do it.  The same goes for tank tops on
men.  This may open me up to charges of inconsistancy since I
personally wear tanks tops when I dance, but sexist and unfair though
it may be, tank tops are different for men and women (the guys get to
go bare-chested on the beach, so live with it).  Male tank tops are
not formal wear.  They are not even informal wear.  They are gym
wear, that is what they look like, and it isn't a look that
complements the atmosphere of a dance.  I would like to see a general
rule adopted that anything someone feels comfortable wearing for the
for the beach or gym, is not appropriate for a dance.

That's my opinion.  I'm curious to hear what other people think.

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:34:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:33:17 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus" <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000222151007.00982100-AT-
209.183.254.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 11:59 AM 2/22/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Dress codes - now there's another topic that's been waiting to be
>opened up.

Thanks (I think?).  And, I usually keep my discussions off-list but this 
opportunity can not be passed-up ;-).

>One of the things that I thought really contributed to the wonderful
>atmosphere at Pinewoods English Week last summer was Gene's repeated
>recommendations or requests to people to dress a little more nicely
>than usual for the evening dances (something I had planned to mention
>in my never completed evaluation, Gene).  I know that we, as a
>community have no wish to go back to the rigid dress code of previous
>generations, but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung too far
[snip]
>something out of the daily routine . . .
>it is
>not ordinary time, is to dress differently than one does during routine time.
>
>I realize that this is easier for women to do then men, as we have a
>greater range clothing style to choose from.

Now, here's where the going gets rough: did you not like my choice of 
attire at the evening dance?  I got out my best skirt!  I realize that my 
taste may be a bit 'backwards,' given that I came from Ohio and we don't 
usually dress-up back thar.

And, there you go stereotyping men: pu-lease!  Many other men were very 
well attired at English week: many of us think that Peter Barnes 
out-classed many of the folks there, women as well as men.

>And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn Dance
>I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance outfit.
>We're talking metallic bra cups and straps here.  There was no place
>on this woman above the waist that a partner could have placed a hand
>for a swing or courtesy turn where it would have encountered cloth
>rather than sweaty, bare skin.

I agree: I'd NEVER wear such an outfit.  Disgusting.  Breast plates should 
be reserved for the battle field; a metal bra cup could be dangerous just 
to bump into.  (Uh, oh: percussive effects are ringing in my head.)  Your 
point about the lack of suitable moisture wicking is well taken.  I 
encountered a 'well endowed' lady at another dance who demurely announced 
that she hoped people were not offended by her halter top.  It was mid-July 
at the Glen Echo ball room: If that guy with the loin-cloth/towel were 
around, I could have used it.

Thanks, Barbara, for bringing this up.  Having been recently retired, it 
gave me a pleasant excuse to get away from writing resumes and job 
applications.  (And my sister wonders what I do all day.)  Hand is poised 
above the <enter> key, engage mind . . . whoops . . ..


-- Roger
_ __ _________________ _   ___________________________________________
  /__) _,  __, _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: Roger-AT-
just.net
          _/_               www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html
_______ (/____________________________________________________________ 

--Boundary_(ID_IIt00lHhOKTXKsc017shrw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<html>
At 11:59 AM 2/22/00 -0800, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Dress codes - now there's another topic that's
been waiting to be<br>
opened up.</blockquote><br>
Thanks (I think?).&nbsp; And, I usually keep my discussions off-list but
this opportunity can not be passed-up ;-).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>One of the things that I thought really
contributed to the wonderful<br>
atmosphere at Pinewoods English Week last summer was Gene's 
repeated<br>
recommendations or requests to people to dress a little more nicely<br>
than usual for the evening dances (something I had planned to
mention<br>
in my never completed evaluation, Gene).&nbsp; I know that we, as a<br>
community have no wish to go back to the rigid dress code of
previous<br>
generations, but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung too
far</blockquote>[snip]<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>something out of the daily routine . . .<br>
it is<br>
not ordinary time, is to dress differently than one does during routine
time.<br>
<br>
I realize that this is easier for women to do then men, as we have 
a<br>
greater range clothing style to choose from.</blockquote><br>
Now, here's where the going gets rough: did you not like my choice of
attire at the evening dance?&nbsp; I got out my best skirt!&nbsp; I
realize that my taste may be a bit 'backwards,' given that I came from
Ohio and we don't usually dress-up back thar.<br>
<br>
And, there you go stereotyping men: pu-lease!&nbsp; Many other men were
very well attired at English week: many of us think that Peter Barnes
out-classed many of the folks there, women as well as men.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn
Dance<br>
I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance outfit.
<br>
We're talking metallic bra cups and straps here.&nbsp; There was no
place<br>
on this woman above the waist that a partner could have placed a
hand<br>
for a swing or courtesy turn where it would have encountered cloth<br>
rather than sweaty, bare skin.</blockquote><br>
I agree: I'd NEVER wear such an outfit.&nbsp; Disgusting.&nbsp; Breast
plates should be reserved for the battle field; a metal bra cup could be
dangerous just to bump into.&nbsp; (Uh, oh: percussive effects are
ringing in my head.)&nbsp; Your point about the lack of suitable moisture
wicking is well taken.&nbsp; I encountered a 'well endowed' lady at
another dance who demurely announced that she hoped people were not
offended by her halter top.&nbsp; It was mid-July at the Glen Echo ball
room: If that guy with the loin-cloth/towel were around, I could have
used it.<br>
<br>
Thanks, Barbara, for bringing this up.&nbsp; Having been recently
retired, it gave me a pleasant excuse to get away from writing resumes
and job applications.&nbsp; (And my sister wonders what I do all
day.)&nbsp; Hand is poised above the &lt;enter&gt; key, engage mind . . .
whoops . . ..<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>-- Roger</div>
<div>_ __ _________________ _&nbsp;&nbsp;
___________________________________________</div>
<div>&nbsp;/__) _,&nbsp; __, _&nbsp;&nbsp; _&nbsp;&nbsp; /_)&nbsp; Contra
dancing fanatic, English country</div>
<div>/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.&nbsp; Email:
Roger-AT-
just.net</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
_/_&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.just.net/%7Eroger/dance_niche.html" EUDORA=AUTOURL>www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html</a></div>
_______ (/____________________________________________________________
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_IIt00lHhOKTXKsc017shrw)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:49:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:49:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222204919.20489.qmail-AT-
web1610.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- "Roger W. Broseus" <Roger-AT-
just.net> wrote:
 
> Now, here's where the going gets rough: did you not like my choice
> of 
> attire at the evening dance?  I got out my best skirt!  I realize
> that my 
> taste may be a bit 'backwards,' given that I came from Ohio and we
> don't 
> usually dress-up back thar.

Roger, I always admire your ensembles.  I especially liked the time
you wore the bright orange mop-piece for a wig.


> And, there you go stereotyping men: pu-lease!  Many other men were
> very 
> well attired at English week: many of us think that Peter Barnes 
> out-classed many of the folks there, women as well as men.

Actually I agree that Peter always dresses extremely well, whichever
gender mode he is in.  I think he could provide excellent fashion
consultation to members of either sex - in fact, I've suggested he
offer that service as an auction item.

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:52:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:51:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JM7IA6LE1Q95QXLB-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Darn, pressed the wrong button.

Let me try that again.


Barbara ruth wrote:

>I realize that this is easier for women to do then men, as we have a
>greater range clothing style to choose from.  However, even for those
>who do not want to dress a little above ordinary standards, what  is
>worn by some people at dances nowadays is, in my opinion way below
>what should be considered acceptable.  Too often looking around at a
>dance, it feels more like a gym than a scene of celebration. I
>remember Fried's reaction recently at a mixed contra/English dance,
>to the dancer who typically wears a towl hanging around his waist,
>loincloth style.  

Well, if that's all he wears, I can see where that would be a problem.
If he's wearing a t-shirt and long pants and a towel - like a golf towel,
say, which is specifically intended for dealing with sweaty hands - that
might be a different story.  I generally have a bandana stuffed in my 
belt for that purpose, but a hand towel would be more effective.

>And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn Dance
>I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance outfit. 
>We're talking metallic bra cups and straps here.  

She undoubtedly considers this festive dress-up costume.  It's hard to 
argue that it _isn't_ special festive costume; it may just be inappropriate
special festive costume.  Anyway, while this falls under the general 
heading of 'inappropriate dress' I don't think you can claim it isn't
dressing up.  You just need a clause in your dress code that says that
other dancers shouldn't be required to touch sweaty bare skin (other than
on the hands).


Me, I just don't want to see _her_ moue of distaste when my clammy, sweaty
arm contacts her bare back during the swing.  (And I've seen this - not,
presumably, with this dancer, but with others wearing backless or midriff-less
outfits - it really is a clammy, sweaty arm, and I hate disgusting people with
it.  It's just as clammy, but dries more slowly, if I've got a long-sleeved
shirt on.)

>I saw her during a
>break being complimented on this outfit by a fellow who thought that
>it being a break meant it was appropriate for him to cool off by
>removing his shirt and sitting there bare-chested - and for the sake
>of the scenic environment, he should not have.  It may be culturally
>allowable for men to appear bare-chested in public in some settings,
>but from a taste standpoint, for anywhere outside a beach or
>construction site the general rule should be, any man who does not
>happen to be Tom Cruise, don't do it.  

You're weakening your argument here.  "An indoor dance isn't an appropriate
place to go bare-chested" is a strong and defensible statement; "this guy
wasn't good-looking enough to take his shirt off in public" is a weak one with
too many judgment calls in it.


>The same goes for tank tops on men.  This may open me up to charges of
>inconsistancy since I personally wear tanks tops when I dance, but sexist and
>unfair though it may be, tank tops are different for men and women (the guys
>get to go bare-chested on the beach, so live with it).  Male tank tops are not
>formal wear.  They are not even informal wear.  They are gym wear, that is what
>they look like, and it isn't a look that complements the atmosphere of a dance. 
>I would like to see a general rule adopted that anything someone feels
>comfortable wearing for the for the beach or gym, is not appropriate for a
>dance.

Maybe.  Personally, I hate gyms with a passion, and I wouldn't be comfortable
no matter what I was wearing, so I guess that's no bar to what I wear to a 
dance.

I don't like tank tops on men much myself - unless, say, they're wearing a 
sleeved shirt unbuttoned over it - but that's my personal preference and has 
nothing to do with it being a dance or not.  

I don't know.  My mental image of a contradance involves most people being in
t-shirts, which isn't my idea of dress-up wear at all.  I know that for me, if
I'm going to change shirts twice in an evening, they're probably going to be 
t-shirts.  (For a ball, I'll go with long-sleeved shirts and vests, and change
once in the evening, but balls usually have a place to hang up the alternate
outfit, and this practice has resulted in several dye-chromatography
experiments in the last couple of years, and some of those have rendered the
clothes involved unwearable.  Properly defined, men's formal wear involves
jackets, and I can't dance very much in a jacket without melting away like the
Wicked Witch in Oz.) You didn't say you'd prohibit t shirts if you had the
chance, but I'd like them specifically allowed at regular dances.

-- Alan 


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:55:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:59:25 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <01bf7d77$b3c55ee0$88ecadce-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Barbara Ruth writes:

>>I would like to see a general rule adopted that anything someone feels
comfortable wearing for the
for the beach or gym, is not appropriate for a dance.<<


I suspect that what the question would come down to is:  Do the dance
organizers feel that they have a big enough pool of dancers in their
community that they can afford to turn people away because of the way
they're dressed?

Marian

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:18:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:18:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222211816.18162.qmail-AT-
web1607.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net> wrote:
> Barbara Ruth writes:
> 
> >>I would like to see a general rule adopted that anything someone
> feels
> comfortable wearing for the
> for the beach or gym, is not appropriate for a dance.<<
> 
> 
> I suspect that what the question would come down to is:  Do the
> dance
> organizers feel that they have a big enough pool of dancers in
> their
> community that they can afford to turn people away because of the
> way
> they're dressed?
> 
> Marian

I meant as a self-regulating rule.  Unless someone's egregiously over
the line (I think it's reasonable to demand some sort of above waist
covering for either sex), dance organizers shouldn't be turning
people away.  But it may be new information to some dancers that how
they dress can affect whether others are eager to dance with them.

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
__________________________________________________
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:23:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:21:28 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus" <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: pool of dancers - was was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000222161040.00984b40-AT-
209.183.254.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6ITni+H651pCwSMrB1sJ4Q)"


--Boundary_(ID_6ITni+H651pCwSMrB1sJ4Q)
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First, let me publicly acknowledge the kind comments of Barbara Ruth about 
my "do" at English American Week at Baggalo Fap: thanks for once again 
calling attention to this in print.

At 12:59 PM 2/22/00 -0800, you wrote, regarding beach vs. dance wear:
>I suspect that what the question would come down to is:  Do the dance
>organizers feel that they have a big enough pool of dancers in their
>community that they can afford to turn people away because of the way
>they're dressed?
>
>Marian

We (<-- that's the imperial we) recall the famous Central Illinois English 
Country Dancer's Pool Party (see
         http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~j-sivier/ciecd/pool/pool.html).
Some of the standards of dress recommended as rules would result in not a 
large enough pool of people for this pool party.  Remember too: there is a 
Balance and Swim get away weekend in West Va as well as an evening affair 
in Richmond, by the same name.  Over dressing for such an event would be a 
real DRAG; actually, it would create too much drag and a consequent 
decrease in elegance due to inability to move smoothly and freely.  (Towels 
are to be left on the side of the pool.)  I attended the Richmond event (it 
was contra) and folks had so much fun that they got all tied-up in knots in 
the pool, literally.  I agree, though: metal clothing would have been out 
of place: sloshing and perhaps corroding.


-- Roger
_ __ _________________ _   ___________________________________________
  /__) _,  __, _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: Roger-AT-
just.net
          _/_               www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html
_______ (/____________________________________________________________ 

--Boundary_(ID_6ITni+H651pCwSMrB1sJ4Q)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<html>
First, let me publicly acknowledge the kind comments of Barbara Ruth
about my &quot;do&quot; at English American Week at Baggalo Fap: thanks
for once again calling attention to this in print.<br>
<br>
At 12:59 PM 2/22/00 -0800, you wrote, regarding beach vs. dance
wear:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>I suspect that what the question would come
down to is:&nbsp; Do the dance<br>
organizers feel that they have a big enough pool of dancers in 
their<br>
community that they can afford to turn people away because of the
way<br>
they're dressed?<br>
<br>
Marian</blockquote><br>
We (&lt;-- that's the imperial we) recall the famous Central Illinois
English Country Dancer's Pool Party (see<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><a href="http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/%7Ej-sivier/ciecd/pool/pool.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~j-sivier/ciecd/pool/pool.html</a>).<br>
Some of the standards of dress recommended as rules would result in not a
large enough pool of people for this pool party.&nbsp; Remember too:
there is a Balance and Swim get away weekend in West Va as well as an
evening affair in Richmond, by the same name.&nbsp; Over dressing for
such an event would be a real DRAG; actually, it would create too much
drag and a consequent decrease in elegance due to inability to move
smoothly and freely.&nbsp; (Towels are to be left on the side of the
pool.)&nbsp; I attended the Richmond event (it was contra) and folks had
so much fun that they got all tied-up in knots in the pool,
literally.&nbsp; I agree, though: metal clothing would have been out of
place: sloshing and perhaps corroding.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>-- Roger</div>
<div>_ __ _________________ _&nbsp;&nbsp;
___________________________________________</div>
<div>&nbsp;/__) _,&nbsp; __, _&nbsp;&nbsp; _&nbsp;&nbsp; /_)&nbsp; Contra
dancing fanatic, English country</div>
<div>/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.&nbsp; Email:
Roger-AT-
just.net</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
_/_&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.just.net/%7Eroger/dance_niche.html" EUDORA=AUTOURL>www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html</a></div>
_______ (/____________________________________________________________
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_6ITni+H651pCwSMrB1sJ4Q)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:31:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:33:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: pool of dancers - was was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222213348.9015.qmail-AT-
web1608.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT



--- "Roger W. Broseus" <Roger-AT-
just.net> wrote:

> At 12:59 PM 2/22/00 -0800, you wrote, regarding beach vs. dance
> wear:
> >I suspect that what the question would come down to is:  Do the
> dance
> >organizers feel that they have a big enough pool of dancers in
> their
> >community that they can afford to turn people away because of the
> way
> >they're dressed?
> >

> We (<-- that's the imperial we) recall the famous Central Illinois
> English 
> Country Dancer's Pool Party...........  Remember too:
> there is a 
> Balance and Swim get away weekend in West Va as well as an evening
> affair 
> in Richmond, by the same name. 

The question then becomes, do the organizers have a big enough pool
for all the dancers?

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:25:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:21:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000222222152.1210.qmail-AT-
web1609.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
wrote:
 
> Well, if that's all he wears, I can see where that would be a
> problem.
> If he's wearing a t-shirt and long pants and a towel - like a golf
> towel,
> say, which is specifically intended for dealing with sweaty hands -
> that
> might be a different story.  I generally have a bandana stuffed in
> my 
> belt for that purpose, but a hand towel would be more effective.

Actually a number of our male contra dancers wear a hand towel,
fairly discretly hanging on their belts.  In this case, although the
person in is usually wearing shorts, the towel hangs from the waist
down the front of his body to below the knees.  The effect is
somewhat bizarre and in this particular case seemed the more
inappropriate because the event was a dance-party given in honor of a
wedding.  It just seems to me that a party in someone's honor
suggests a little more dressing up.

 
> >And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn Dance
> >I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance
> outfit. 
 
> She undoubtedly considers this festive dress-up costume.  It's hard
> to 
> argue that it _isn't_ special festive costume; it may just be
> inappropriate
> special festive costume.  

You do have a point there.

 

>  It may be
> culturally
> >allowable for men to appear bare-chested in public in some
> settings,
> >but from a taste standpoint, for anywhere outside a beach or
> >construction site the general rule should be, any man who does not
> >happen to be Tom Cruise, don't do it.  
> 
> You're weakening your argument here.  "An indoor dance isn't an
> appropriate
> place to go bare-chested" is a strong and defensible statement;
> "this guy
> wasn't good-looking enough to take his shirt off in public" is a
> weak one with
> too many judgment calls in it.

I didn't say "_looks_ like Tom Cruise."  On the whole I do not think
it is appropriate for any men to go bare-chested in public, in our
culture, except at a beach.  I'm willing to break a lot of rules for
Tom Cruise however.


> I don't know.  My mental image of a contradance involves most
> people being in
> t-shirts, which isn't my idea of dress-up wear at all.... Properly
defined, men's formal wear
> involves
> jackets, and I can't dance very much in a jacket without melting
> away like the
> Wicked Witch in Oz.) You didn't say you'd prohibit t shirts if you
> had the
> chance, but I'd like them specifically allowed at regular dances.

This is an area where women have more leeway than men.  We have a lot
more choice of intermediate clothing that is comfortable but still
nicer.  And when you spend all your work time in pants as I do (since
I bicycle to work), simply changing into a skirt is an act that moves
me outside of "normal time" and into "special event".  To be honest,
I find it puzzling that more people don't like to take the
opportunity to dress up.  To me doing so makes me genuinely feel more
celebratory.  Of course, I've always felt that one of the appeals for
men of country dancing, English, American or Scottish, is that it
gives them much more of the opportunity we women have for "playing"
with our clothing.  How else does one understand all those men
eagerly getting into 18th century costumes, skirts, and kilts.

  I am also aware that cotton knit fabrics such as t-shirt material
are much more effective at absorbing sweat than woven cloth and for
that reason can be preferable for highly active activities (though
for those who are interested, I've recently discovered "cool-max"
fabrics that really are miraculous at "wicking" away moisture.  Now
the trick is to get someone to make these fabrics into ball-gown
material).  So yes, as long as I can ban tank tops on men, I'll allow
special dispensation for t-shirts at regular dances.

=====
Do you know about the Hunger Site?
Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
No purchases - all you do is click on the site.
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com to help fight world hunger.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:13:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:23:15 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Proposed increases internet and email charges
To: For Your Information <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <002d01bf7d83$97c633c0$72f7490c-AT-
pavilion>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

For your information - this one looks worth responding to.
Dianna

From: Rebecca L B Roberts <RebeccaRoberts-AT-
neighbornet.net>
Subject: LOST FREEDOMS
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 12:54 PM

 For those of you not totally cynical about political processes...here's 1
 for ya...
 CNN has reported that within the next two weeks Congress is going to vote
 on allowing telephone companies to CHARGE A TOLL FEE for Internet access.
 Translation: Every time we send a long distance e-mail we will receive a
 long distance charge. This will get costly. Please visit the following
 web site and file  a complaint to your Congressperson. We can't allow
 this to pass! The following address will allow you to send an e-mail on
this
 subject DIRECTLY to your Congressperson.
http://www.house.gov/writerep>

 Pass this on to your friends. It is urgent! I hope all of you will pass
 this on to all your friends and family.  We should ALL have an interest
 in this one.

 WAIT, THERE'S MORE! IN ADDITION, The last few months have revealed an
alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to
quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet.
 Under proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to
 bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees".  Bill 602P will permit
 the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered,
 by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be
 billed in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is
 working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law.  The
 U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation
of e-mail costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year.  You may have
noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter". Since the
average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost
to the typical  individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over
$180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs.
 Note that this would be money paid directly to the U.S. Postal Service
 for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet
 is democracy and non-interference. If the federal government is permitted
to  tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows
where
 itwill end. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail
 because of bureaucratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a
letter to be delivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. Postal Service
is
 allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet
 in the United States.

 One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a "twenty to forty
 dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the
 government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major
 newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the
 Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept
who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 Editorial).
 Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this e-mail to
 EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and relatives to write
 to their Congressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. It will only take a few
 moments of your time, and could very well be instrumental in killing a
 bill we don't want.

 PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO USES EMAIL REMEMBER THESE ARE TWO
SEPARATE ISSUES THAT EFFECT ALL OF US ONLINE LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD NOW,
NOT AFTER.


Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
Scottish Country Dancing and More:
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:17:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:16:31 -0500 (EST)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Wizard's Walk (was Contra & Playford)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Message-ID: <79.1a95a15.25e472cf-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Jim Morgan wrote:

 >The one element I haven't seen is a return to the old contra
 >practice of fitting a dance to a particular tune. In the old
 >contra books each dance seemed to have it's own tune, just as in
 >Playford.

Reine Wonite wrote:

 >The only modern contra example I am aware of is Wizard's Walk,
 >which Charlie Fenton called at last night's Dawn dance in Santa
 >Cruz.

I can't think of any others, either. For anyone who might be
wondering, Wizard's Walk was a tune first and a dance second. Jay
Ungar wrote the tune in the late 1980s and his daughter, Ruth,
wrote the dance to it.

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:23:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Proposed increases internet and email charges
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JM7O5KI4SM95MOLW-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Dianna forwarded a piece about internet and email charges.

Usually I chastise people off-list, but I'm going to do it on-list because
I'm sure other list members will do it on-list, and we don't need a whole
lot of finger-wagging email.

So, briefly, DON'T DO THAT.

(1) This is bogus.  (It isn't exactly the same as the "Modem Tax" thing that's
been floating around since forever, but it is, truly, bogus.

(2) It's off-topic.

(3) In my experience, _anything that says_ 

 PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO USES EMAIL 
 
 is bogus.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:39:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:38:55 -0800
From: South Bay English Country Dance <sbecd-AT-
geocities.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: "Proposed increases.." IS A HOAX
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20000222233855.009d8e9c-AT-
pop.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

At 04:23 PM 2/22/00 -0600, you wrote:
>For your information - this one looks worth responding to.
>Dianna
>etc...

I hope the list-owner will address this msg directly. In any case:
a) if it way off-topic for this list (and should not be here)
b) it is a false warning (CNN has not reported any such thing)
c) it is an attempt at starting a chain-mail letter (do not forward it to
anyone, just hit 'delete')

Now will someone help Rebecca (and anyone else who might need it) and get
the hook (and line and sinker) off her (their) mouth(s)? 
Thanks. Giovanni De Amici

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:46:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:46:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Proposed increases.." IS A HOAX
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0002221845560.5837-100000-AT-
panix2.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

 Forwarded from the Swedenborg list:


There is a virus circulating. It won't kill you, but can
leave you feeling embarassed. It runs on humans, but uses
computers and e-mail as transmission media. This virus
cleverly distracts the target human by announcing a false
threat to the human's computer, thus diverting attention
while it infects the human's brain. The signature that
identifies this family of virus is the advice "Send this to
as many people as possible."

A virus cannot reproduce itself, and so hijacks the
biological processes of another being to accomplish its
reproduction. This type of virus talks you into surrendering
your computer, your e-mail and your time to do its
reproduction for it. 

Scientists believe the old "GOSSIP" family of viruses, which
were transmitted primarily by verbal communication, crossed
over into electronic media and mutated into forms more
specifically adapted to those media. The "VIRUS WARNING" and
its early relatives like "*** MAKE MONEY FAST ***" and
"DYING SEVEN-YEAR OLD WANTS POSTCARDS" continue to circulate
years after their first appearance.

Fortunately, the impact of the virus on humans is not
severe. Usually no distress is felt until the moment when
the infection is diagnosed. Depending on the patient's
constitution, diagnosis precipitates a period of either
embarrassment or mirth, which quickly eradicates the
infection. The infection can be prolonged by disbelieving
the diagnosis. (Thus the condition is strangely reminiscent
of a cartoon character walking off a cliff, and only falling
after noticing the situation.)

Fortunately, exposure to the virus leaves most patients
immune to further infection, and often produces immunity to
other viruses of the same family. 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:18:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:18:11 -0800
From: "Graham, Laura" <lgraha-AT-
chmc.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: "'ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU'" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <71AD72259C5FD211BDEE0000929644CB02029531-AT-
s102.chmc.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Sometimes I like to dress up, sometimes I don't want to 
think about it.  Part of what makes a dance joyful and 
"not part of ordinary time" for me is seeing so many
different people having so much fun together and taking
their sweaty bodies and differences (including age, 
physical prowess, level of dress or undress,
dance, taste, style, etc) in stride.

I tend to be a bit self-conscious, in new environments. 
So when I first started dancing I was relieved that 
it didn't seem to matter how dressed up I was
or wasn't. I also like the fact that I don't feel out of 
place if I do feel like dressing up.
More importantly, to me, I enjoy the inclusiveness and
tolerance I experience at our local dances.

--Laura 
  Seattle WA

PS. I have also enjoyed the humor flowing through this thread!





================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:25:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:20:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: pool of dancers - was was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.1000222161942.12165D-AT-
crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Then there were the famous nude contras at Kimmswick a few years ago (on 
the old site). The band was bare too; I felt sorry for the banjo player.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:37:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:43:09 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <014101bf7d96$f5a411c0$8e22a3d1-AT-
gloria>
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web1611.mail.yahoo.com>

Argh! No!  It can't be!  I'm on the ECD list?  I didn't wander
back onto MWSD by mistake?

A few folders away, I'm arguing with the club square dancers
about being allowed to wear waistless dresses at the national
convention in Baltimore this summer.  (Acceptable for those
late in pregnancy, but not otherwise.)  This is not a joke.

Please, enjoy your freedom and diversity.  Don't mandate.
Even recommending can chase people away.

If you don't want to take my word for this, send a message to
macjordomo-AT-
eclipse.net  with a subject line saying "subscribe
square-dancing".   The topic comes up at least once a month.
If you don't want to wait, you can always post a question.

Gloria Krusemeyer
Northfield, MN

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:42:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:33:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Proposed increases internet and email charges
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: For Your Information <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.1000222163043.12165I-100000-AT-
crl3.crl.com>
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Dianna Shipman wrote:

> For your information - this one looks worth responding to.

Sorry -- it isn't. It's a hoax that's been circulating around the 
internet for several years now in several variants. Go to the 
alt.folklore.urban newsgroup, find the FAQ and search under the phrase 
"modem tax".

A good general rule on the net, including e-mail: whenever some document 
tells you to forward it to as many people as possible -- don't.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:42:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:37:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Wizard's Walk (was Contra & Playford)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.1000222163329.12165J-100000-AT-
crl3.crl.com>
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> Reine Wonite wrote:
> 
>  >The only modern contra example I am aware of is Wizard's Walk,
>  >which Charlie Fenton called at last night's Dawn dance in Santa
>  >Cruz.
> 
> I can't think of any others, either. For anyone who might be
> wondering, Wizard's Walk was a tune first and a dance second. Jay
> Ungar wrote the tune in the late 1980s and his daughter, Ruth,
> wrote the dance to it.

Peter Lippincott's "Snake River Reel" is another; he wrote the dance
first, I think. That was in the late 70s, before contra got modern. It's
still called, along with variants, in the upper midwest and perhaps
elsewhere. The tune, with calls, is recorded (at a dance) on the tape
"Jump Fingers". 

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:56:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:53:42 -0500
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000401bf7db1$93415900$f7d5bfa8-AT-
g9tfz.MITRE.org>
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Bless you, Barbara!!

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of Barbara Ruth
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:59 PM
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing


--- Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net> wrote:
> Gracious manners and a dress code complete the picture.

Dress codes - now there's another topic that's been waiting to be
opened up.
One of the things that I thought really contributed to the wonderful
atmosphere at Pinewoods English Week last summer was Gene's repeated
recommendations or requests to people to dress a little more nicely
than usual for the evening dances (something I had planned to mention
in my never completed evaluation, Gene).  I know that we, as a
community have no wish to go back to the rigid dress code of previous
generations, but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung too far in the
opposite direction to casual and even less, dress, at all times.  To
me a dance is a festive event, something out of the daily routine, a
time that is special and joyous, whether it's a Ball, the weekly
local dance, or an evening among many at camp, and one of the ways
both of making something feel festive and marking the fact that it is
not ordinary time, is to dress differently than one does during
routine time.

I realize that this is easier for women to do then men, as we have a
greater range clothing style to choose from.  However, even for those
who do not want to dress a little above ordinary standards, what  is
worn by some people at dances nowadays is, in my opinion way below
what should be considered acceptable.  Too often looking around at a
dance, it feels more like a gym than a scene of celebration. I
remember Fried's reaction recently at a mixed contra/English dance,
to the dancer who typically wears a towl hanging around his waist,
loincloth style.  And then there was the last Brattleboro Dawn Dance
I was at, where a woman was dancing contras in a belly dance outfit. 
We're talking metallic bra cups and straps here.  There was no place
on this woman above the waist that a partner could have placed a hand
for a swing or courtesy turn where it would have encountered cloth
rather than sweaty, bare skin. Maybe men actually like that - I'd be
interested to hear if you do.  All I could think, looking at her, was
how grateful I was that she'd never ended up in a set I was dancing
in because I wouldn't have wanted to touch her.  I saw her during a
break being complimented on this outfit by a fellow who thought that
it being a break meant it was appropriate for him to cool off by
removing his shirt and sitting there bare-chested - and for the sake
of the scenic environment, he should not have.  It may be culturally
allowable for men to appear bare-chested in public in some settings,
but from a taste standpoint, for anywhere outside a beach or
construction site the general rule should be, any man who does not
happen to be Tom Cruise, don't do it.  The same goes for tank tops on
men.  This may open me up to charges of inconsistancy since I
personally wear tanks tops when I dance, but sexist and unfair though
it may be, tank tops are different for men and women (the guys get to
go bare-chested on the beach, so live with it).  Male tank tops are
not formal wear.  They are not even informal wear.  They are gym
wear, that is what they look like, and it isn't a look that
complements the atmosphere of a dance.  I would like to see a general
rule adopted that anything someone feels comfortable wearing for the
for the beach or gym, is not appropriate for a dance.

That's my opinion.  I'm curious to hear what other people think.

=====
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Sponsors of the hunger site donate money to the United 
Nations World Food Programme for every visitor to the site.
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:12:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:07:05 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Proposed increases internet and email charges
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <00ee01bf7db3$fdc18780$1ce7490c-AT-
pavilion>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <01JM7O5KI4SM95MOLW-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

Many apologies - this went out in error - and to wrong address - info is not
correct and intended for someone else to check out and clicked onto wrong
addressee - won't happen again
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
Scottish Country Dancing and More:
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Proposed increases internet and email charges


> Dianna forwarded a piece about internet and email charges.
>
> Usually I chastise people off-list, but I'm going to do it on-list because
> I'm sure other list members will do it on-list, and we don't need a whole
> lot of finger-wagging email.
>
> So, briefly, DON'T DO THAT.
>
> (1) This is bogus.  (It isn't exactly the same as the "Modem Tax" thing
that's
> been floating around since forever, but it is, truly, bogus.
>
> (2) It's off-topic.
>
> (3) In my experience, _anything that says_
>
>  PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO USES EMAIL
>
>  is bogus.
>
> -- Alan
>
>
>
============================================================================
===
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:
650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA
94309-0210
>
============================================================================
===
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:27:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:27:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000223042722.18942.qmail-AT-
web3305.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com> wrote:
> Argh! No!  It can't be!  I'm on the ECD list?  I didn't wander
> back onto MWSD by mistake?
> 
> A few folders away, I'm arguing with the club square dancers
> about being allowed to wear waistless dresses at the national
> convention in Baltimore this summer.  (Acceptable for those
> late in pregnancy, but not otherwise.)  This is not a joke.
> 
> Please, enjoy your freedom and diversity.  Don't mandate.
> Even recommending can chase people away.
> 
> If you don't want to take my word for this, send a message to
> macjordomo-AT-
eclipse.net  with a subject line saying "subscribe
> square-dancing".   The topic comes up at least once a month.
> If you don't want to wait, you can always post a question.
> 
> Gloria Krusemeyer
> Northfield, MN
> 

I agree with you that we certainly don't want to dictate
anything like the Square Dancers. However, I also have to say
that people shouldn't dress like slobs and especially the men do
exactly that. The women usually make some effort to be festive.
It's been a long time since the men in our society have worn the
plummage.

Andy in Portland
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:39:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:20:55 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Wizard's Walk (was Contra & Playford)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210141b4d90f88eb3f-AT-
[24.128.26.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.1000222163329.12165J-100000-AT-
crl3.crl.com>

Richard Powers has written a dance entitled "Childhood Jigs" which 
emulates the 19th century practice of a dance master using familiar 
tunes for a dance.  The music for it is a medley of cartoon and 
sitcom themes.

At 4:37 PM -0800 2/22/00, Paul J. Stamler wrote:
>  > Reine Wonite wrote:
>  >
>  >  >The only modern contra example I am aware of is Wizard's Walk,
>  >  >which Charlie Fenton called at last night's Dawn dance in Santa
>  >  >Cruz.
>  >
>  > I can't think of any others, either. For anyone who might be
>  > wondering, Wizard's Walk was a tune first and a dance second. Jay
>  > Ungar wrote the tune in the late 1980s and his daughter, Ruth,
>  > wrote the dance to it.
>
> Peter Lippincott's "Snake River Reel" is another; he wrote the dance
> first, I think. That was in the late 70s, before contra got modern. It's
> still called, along with variants, in the upper midwest and perhaps
> elsewhere. The tune, with calls, is recorded (at a dance) on the tape
> "Jump Fingers".
>
> Peace.
> Paul

--Mike Bergman

"Of course he has a website.  We *all* have websites.  It's the eve 
of the 21st  century, and we're all barbarians!" 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:09:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:00:19 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210143b4d91e446126-AT-
[24.128.26.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <20000223042722.18942.qmail-AT-
web3305.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, I guess this is a good place to put in a plug for Vintage 
Dance.  If you feel that how people are dressed is part of the entire 
ambience of a dance, and you want a more formal feel, you might want 
to give a vintage dance a try.  We tend to go all-out formal for our 
fancy balls, and some of the men (and women) even wear period 
sporting attire for workshops (though most just wear "standard contra 
dance attire")

Drop me a note if you are interested in learning more about vintage 
dance, and possibilities in your area.

Back to the general subject -- around here, lately (the last few 
years) there has been a bit of a drift in the direction of dressing 
up more for contras -- both men and women.  Certainly I've been doing 
so myself.  I still sometimes show up in a T shirt, but prefer a 
short-sleeved summer sports shirt.  By the way, most of us don't 
throw on just *any* old T-shirt -- I have a number of slogan t-shirts 
that are primarily intended for dancing in, with dance themes in 
either graphics or words or both.  Most of the other men I see in 
T-shirts are also wearing appropriate material on their chests (or 
backs, or sleeves).

So, just as was pointed out with the belly-dance costume, this *is* 
festive dress, its just not *your* choice of festive dress!

I'd say both the contra dancers and the EC dancers dress better than 
the IF dancers, but the local swing dancers really look keen.  Not 
quite as good as vintage dancers, of course..

--Mike Bergman
--Mike Bergman

"Of course he has a website.  We *all* have websites.  It's the eve 
of the 21st  century, and we're all barbarians!" 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:02:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:02:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000223080241.5573.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT



--- Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu> wrote:
> Well, I guess this is a good place to put in a plug for
> Vintage 
> Dance.  If you feel that how people are dressed is part of the
> entire 
> ambience of a dance, and you want a more formal feel, you
> might want 
> to give a vintage dance a try.  We tend to go all-out formal
> for our 
> fancy balls, and some of the men (and women) even wear period 
> sporting attire for workshops (though most just wear "standard
> contra 
> dance attire")
> 

I remember about 11 or 12 years ago wearing my tailcoat to the
Yankee Ingenuity Christmas Cotillion at the Scout House. I did
Chorus Jig with Gail from CVD. She was wearing an elegant light
brown Victorian dress. I looked at her in that dress and said,
"You know, we have to this straight." It was the most elegant
and enjoyable Chorus Jig I'd done in a long time.

Andy in Portland
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:05:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:05:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Wizard's Walk (was Contra & Playford)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000223080552.5828.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT



--- Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu> wrote:
> Richard Powers has written a dance entitled "Childhood Jigs"
> which 
> emulates the 19th century practice of a dance master using
> familiar 
> tunes for a dance.  The music for it is a medley of cartoon
> and 
> sitcom themes.
> 

We danced that at the Mazurka week held in Port Townsend WA
eleven years ago. I was under the impression that the musical
arrangement was from Peter Barnes.

Andy in Portland
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:54:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:56:27 -0800
From: Ric Goldman <timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001801bf7ddb$ded6eb80$cb268ad1-AT-
ASSOCIATION>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

And chiming in with $.02...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]On Behalf Of Andrew
> Peterson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 9:22 AM
> To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Subject: Re: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
> 
[snip]
> 
> At ECD you won't find people groaning "Oh no, not a square!"
> when you tell them to form sets for Newcastle. They also

That's because it's NOT a square, merely a four-couple set.  :-)
Or even a quadrille, ANYTHING but a square... :-)

> willingly take hands-six or form three-couple sets when asked to
> do so.

True, there is a bit more flexibility to forms.  I've even seen some
contra dancer bemoan a circle dance (sicilian, round, or open).  I
suspect it's more a comfort zone issue.

> I once tried to call a dance by Dudley Laufman that had multiple
> swings in it. It was a triple-minor longways and I absolutely
> could not get the idea of "hands six from the top" across to the
> dancers. Norb Spencer bailed me out by starting up Petronella.
> That wouldn't work in Portland because we don't do the old
> standards often enough for people to know what to do to that
> music.

Definitely a comfort zone issue, so question...how to stretch your
dance community?

Thanx, Ric


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:54:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:56:32 -0800
From: Ric Goldman <timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dance vocabulary (was: RE: What makes someone take the leap?)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001a01bf7ddb$e154bcc0$cb268ad1-AT-
ASSOCIATION>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Ben,

I have to disagree with you on a few points.  While I agree with Mary Beth's
sentiment of "just follow behind the line" is not the friendliest intro to a
dance style (shame on whoever did that to her), I think your summary of IFD is a
trifle simplistic.  I've had friends complain about the contra/ECD experience
because they were only taught calls, and never taught dances.  As a  result,
they can respond to a caller, but always felt like trained seals at best.  Some
folk even complained that having a caller is too much of a "crutch", as in "why
won't they teach instead of just call"?  Some of the Playford events that
emphasize teaching with no calling during the event seem to feel that's an extra
special delight as well.

I think in most cases, it really comes down to learning a dance vocabulary, a
repertoire of steps, motions, actions, attitudes, flourishes, &c.  From this
comes the comfort with a given dance form.  It's sort've like when you first
learn to drive - everything is conscious - nothing is intuitive.  Later, you
become comfortable and it becomes second nature (yet another form of muscle
memory).  In addition, once that comfort zone is there, there's the opportunity
for those that want to, to also explore styling and other subtleties (although
I'm of the school that tries to include some styling even to beginners - they
won't know it's the hard stuff if you don't tell them).

Granted there is a big range of teaching experiences in IFD, but it also exists
within in ECD/Contra/Scottish.  We're also talking about a different dynamic of
interactive set (cooperative) dancing vs. [open] circle, line, solo, or couple
dancing, not to mention a vast difference in the sizes of the dance vocabularies
involved.

I like the example of what's typically done in Hungarian dance.  Yes, you whet
someone's appetite with a particular dance or choreography (not totally like
introducing an ECD at a contra or vice versa).  However, the most enjoyable
experience for many is getting past choreographed "snippets" to learn a "cycle",
or dance movements for a particular region (Hungary has many cycles).  Once you
learn movements for a particular cycle, you can improvise within that vocabulary
to make something that's truly yours (simple or complex), and which can vary
with each playing or not.  A domestic example would be learning the basic
movement in east-coast swing and then learning variations to add (or not, as you
choose) - it's not totally analogous, but you get the idea.  In both cases this
is certainly learning dancing.  Many other countries have similar forms - they
just aren't often taught that way in the typical recreational IFD setting (I
won't go into THAT pet peeve :-).

I'm also reminded of a major bit of feedback that came in last year's BACDS
Monte Toyon Spring Weekend dance evaluations.  There was an overall plea for
workshops at camp where people would be *taught* things, and not just another
dance party.  Obviously there's some part of the community which hungers for a
deeper familiarity with the vocabulary, whether it's to increase familiarity
with individual dances (and we never have dancers correct a caller about how to
do the dance, do we? :-), or with particular kinds of moment, transition,
technique, learning their "art" if you will, not satisfied to just react to a
caller.  (The recent threads on twirling come to mind).

For my $.02, one of the reasons contra is successful is because it has a rather
small self-contained vocabulary that can be quickly picked up and is accessible.
However, that can work against it sometimes for someone then trying to expand to
other dance forms like ECD or IFD, because those vocabularies are larger, more
complex, and not as easily assimilated (resistance, regrettably, is NOT futile
:-).

In following your analogy, I would say that perhaps neither the contra/ECD or
the IFD dancer has total fluency (IFD especially means multiple "languages", but
then so would a combined English/Contra/Swing/Couple-Dance event), although some
familiarity occurs in both dance genres (albeit different types).  Whether these
are dance "words", "phrases", "sentences", rote repetition or immersion with
understanding tends to vary on the vocabulary one chooses to pick up and the
time spent.

Thanx, Ric Goldman
timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Stein
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 8:04 AM
> To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Subject: Re: What makes someone take the leap?
>
>
> Mary Beth: The problem with International Folk Dancing is not the  instruction
for
> I have had some very good teachers in Folk Dancing; but the fact that Folk
Dancers
> and Country Dancers learn (and are taught) differently. Country Dancers learn
a
> repetory of figures (formations if you will) and footwork while Folk Dancers
tend
> to learn a dance as an entitiy. To use the Scottish terminology; Folk Dancers
> learn "Dances" while country dancers learn "dancing".Thus Folk Dancers learn a
> basic repetory of dances quicker than country dancers but are limited to those
> dances that they have learned while country dancers take more time to
> learn the basics but then have an unlimited repertory at their command.
>
> I have often used the analogy that Folk Dancers memorize dances like a concert
> singer (at least a beginning one) may memorize a song in a foreign
> language while not understanding the language while Country Dancers are more
like
> opera singers who take the time to learn the language because they need to
> understand what is going on. As far as Folk Dancing it comes from the "nature
of the
> beast"- it is difficult to go deeply into the culture when you are going to
learn
> dances from a multitude of countries in one evening. It is a tough gap to
bridge.
>
> Ben Stein

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:12:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:50:23 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Dance dress
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000223095023.007ef540-AT-
pop.wanadoo.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> ...don't do it.  The same goes for tank tops on
>men. 

Once the warm weather comes back, I'd love to be in tank tops all the time,
and just wish there were a few less censorious people around, trying to
make me feel uncomfortable.
I'd even be tempted to join the loin-cloth brigade when it gets really hot.

When I heard somewhere that square-dancing men were not even allowed to
roll up their sleeves, I decided that that kind of dance community was
definitely not for me.

In fact, I agree; it is a pity that there's a tendency towards sloppiness.
I used to do some international and israeli, and sometimes felt that the
girls were vying with each other to see who could find the oldest shapeless
faded t-shirt, the most unflattering cling shorts or tights, the heaviest
ugliest trainers (gym shoes?).
It is nice to be in company of people that are wearing nice-looking
clothes,  -- clean, tidy, tastefully colourful -- and which may add to the
grace of their movements, but not when it becomes a regimented requirement.
If a particular style is required, you then get the supercilious
down-the-nose glances that just have no place on the friendly dance floor.

I vote for freedom to adapt one's clothes to one's own taste and
morphology, as well as to the climate and temperature of the moment.
Country dance is not like ballroom -- there's not much contact involved
anyway.

Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm     
                  (dance groups,  some new dances, cycling ...)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:05:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 04:11:08 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance vocabulary (was: RE: What makes someone take the leap?)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <001f01bf7de6$4e37e7e0$2b22a3d1-AT-
gloria>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <001a01bf7ddb$e154bcc0$cb268ad1-AT-
ASSOCIATION>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ric Goldman" <timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 2:56 AM
Subject: Dance vocabulary (was: RE: What makes someone take
the leap?)


> Ben,
>
> I have to disagree with you on a few points.  While I agree
with Mary Beth's
> sentiment of "just follow behind the line" is not the
friendliest intro to a
> dance style (shame on whoever did that to her),

You mean there's another way??  There might be one or two
dances taught at the beginning, but everything else is just
danced, and shadow away those who know not.  This includes not
just beginners but also those from other communities with
different reprituares.

Learning how to shadow IFD years ago has allowed me to learn
cued (MWSD) round dancing in relatively short order.
==========
>I think your summary of IFD is a
> trifle simplistic.  I've had friends complain about the
contra/ECD experience
> because they were only taught calls, and never taught
dances.  As a  result,
> they can respond to a caller, but always felt like trained
seals at best.  Some
> folk even complained that having a caller is too much of a
"crutch", as in "why
> won't they teach instead of just call"?     <---snip
  much --->

Contra dancers want too much.  They want to dance without
having lessons, but some want to learn how to dance.

What can be taught on the fly is how to navigate the figures.
The finer details get picked up by observation, solicited or
unsolicited coaching on or off the dance floor, outside study,
and CLASSES, usually in the form of weekend events or weeklong
camps.

The other way people learn the basic dance skills is to go do
ECD, SCD, Swing, Scandinavian, or something else which has
classes where timing, connections, and flow are studied.
These skills are highly transferable and a delight where ever
they appear.

Maybe what we need to do is let some of those frustrated
contra dancers in on these secrets.  And also to press the
event organizers for workshops, not just more daytime parties.
===========
> For my $.02, one of the reasons contra is successful is
because it has a rather
> small self-contained vocabulary that can be quickly picked
up and is accessible.
<<< ---snip ---->>

Contra manages to satisfy at least two distinct populations at
the same time.  Beginners can jump in and enjoy themselves,
and also not wreck things for everyone else if they're spread
out and broken up, etc.  Meanwhile, experienced dancers can
twirl, flirt, time to the microsecond, whatever feels right
for the moment.  Contra dances provide a simple foundation
from which one can perform (almost) endlessly, yet never twice
the same.  Sort of like jazz or French baroque music.

For a community to thrive, it needs a steady flow of beginners
and a pool of experienced people; a variety of ages, both
chronologically and time in the activity.  Contra dancing
manages this now.  I hope this continues to be true.

Gloria Krusemeyer

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:32:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:33:48 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000223023348.0081be70-AT-
oz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
>nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
>"dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
>imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form you 
>like for 'X').
>
>I don't want to get into a big discussion about my sense of humour, 
>but I genuinely believe the comment is funny, and it also says 
>something about the state (real or perceived) of the ECD scene.
>
>Bob

Which ECD scene?  You've been in Seattle quite a while and I've yet to see
you at one of the Friday dances. Are you talking about the ECD scene back
home in England?   

Victoria




Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies..... 
See the portfolio from Northwest New Year's Camp.....
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:20:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:20:11 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: pool of dancers - was was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200002231520.JAA09222-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Paul J. Stamler writes:
> 
> Then there were the famous nude contras at Kimmswick a few years ago (on 
> the old site). The band was bare too; I felt sorry for the banjo player.

   I think I could deal with nude contra or English dance, but I heard
there was also nude clogging and the mental image that THAT conjures up
makes me think that there is such a thing as Going Too Far (TM).  ;-)

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:22:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:22:38 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Wizard's Walk (was Contra & Playford)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <200002231522.JAA10507-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Paul J. Stamler writes:
> 
> > Reine Wonite wrote:
> > 
> >  >The only modern contra example I am aware of is Wizard's Walk,
> >  >which Charlie Fenton called at last night's Dawn dance in Santa
> >  >Cruz.
> > 
> > I can't think of any others, either. For anyone who might be
> > wondering, Wizard's Walk was a tune first and a dance second. Jay
> > Ungar wrote the tune in the late 1980s and his daughter, Ruth,
> > wrote the dance to it.
> 
> Peter Lippincott's "Snake River Reel" is another; he wrote the dance
> first, I think. That was in the late 70s, before contra got modern. It's
> still called, along with variants, in the upper midwest and perhaps
> elsewhere. The tune, with calls, is recorded (at a dance) on the tape
> "Jump Fingers". 

   A fun variant of the dance is Roger Diggle's "Snake Oil Reel".

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:35:02 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:29:45 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b07b4d9ac31f47f-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You should come to Salt Lake City.  Here, not even the statues are allowed
to be nude *.  You would never see a man without a shirt at a dance.  I
don't remember seeing any men in tank tops at dances here either.

*  When a collection of Rodin's art came to town a couple of years ago,
"The Kiss" stayed in its crate.  The curator of Brigham Young University,
where the exhibition was held, thought that looking at nude statues would
give people inappropriate thoughts.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:03:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:03:50 -0800
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <200002231603.IAA10320-AT-
mail.eskimo.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net> wrote:

> >I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
> >nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
> >"dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
> >imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form you 
> >like for 'X').
> >
> >I don't want to get into a big discussion about my sense of humour, 
> >but I genuinely believe the comment is funny, and it also says 
> >something about the state (real or perceived) of the ECD scene.
> >
> Which ECD scene?  You've been in Seattle quite a while and I've yet to see
> you at one of the Friday dances. Are you talking about the ECD scene back
> home in England?   

Unfortunately I've seen these attitudes on both sides of the Atlantic 
(and the south end of the Pacific for that matter), and in most forms 
of dance that I've been involved in. On the whole the ECD list is 
pretty good at being tolerant, certainly better than some other 
dance lists I subscribe to, but I do think that tolerance has slipped 
over the past week.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:03:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:03:50 -0800
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Contra vs ECD etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <200002231603.IAA10324-AT-
mail.eskimo.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:

> --- Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I can list many dancers and dance groups who are neither smug 
> > nor righteous, however I have also experienced the attitude that 
> > "dance form X is real dancing and everything else is a pale 
> > imitation" far too often for my liking (substitute any dance form
> > you 
> > like for 'X').
> 
> Isn't there something just a tad inconsistent in this coming from
> someone who's just dissed the entire U.S. English-dancing community
> for not doing things exactly the way they're done in England?

Wow, if I'd known I was going to be accused of dissing the entire 
US English dance community I'd have been much more 
inflammatory :-)

I've looked back at my original post and I don't see what is in it that 
counts as "dissing". I have pointed out that there is more to 
English dance than is commonly done in the US, and nobody has 
questioned that statement (subject to the usual disclaimers about 
there being some exceptions). As Hugh Stewart pointed out, the 
whole "English dance in England is different to English dance in 
the US" discussion has been had several times before, and I don't 
recall anyone using the word "dissed" in those threads.

If I was rewriting my original post to try and avoid accusations of 
"dissing" the only thing I can think of to change is my use of the 
word "biased" which has some negative overtones. If that's the 
word you are objecting to I am quite happy to withdraw it and find 
another acceptable word. It doesn't change the fundamental point I 
was trying to make.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:05:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:09:24 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: pool of dancers - was was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38B40633.C6BC99D-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <200002231520.JAA09222-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>



j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:

> Paul J. Stamler writes:
> >
> > Then there were the famous nude contras at Kimmswick a few years ago (on
> > the old site). The band was bare too; I felt sorry for the banjo player.
>
>    I think I could deal with nude contra or English dance, but I heard
> there was also nude clogging and the mental image that THAT conjures up
> makes me think that there is such a thing as Going Too Far (TM).  ;-)
>
> Jonathan
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
> |  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
> |  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
> |  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
> |  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
> |  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
> |  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
> |  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

That reminds me of my one experience at a Nudist Camp-many years ago. The
least sexy thing I have ever seen is a bunch of middle aged nudists playing
volley ball-unfortunately everthing bounces that shouldn't (both male and
female). Sorry if this is off the subject but I just couldn't resist the
comment.

Ben Stein


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:31:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:28:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000223162810.17616.qmail-AT-
web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


--- Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu> wrote:
> You should come to Salt Lake City.  Here, not even the statues are
> allowed
> to be nude *.  You would never see a man without a shirt at a
> dance.  I
> don't remember seeing any men in tank tops at dances here either.
> 
> *  When a collection of Rodin's art came to town a couple of years
> ago,
> "The Kiss" stayed in its crate.  The curator of Brigham Young
> University,
> where the exhibition was held, thought that looking at nude statues
> would
> give people inappropriate thoughts.

Reminds me of the joke about why Southern Baptists (or insert
conservative religious denomination of your choice) won't allow sex
while standing up.  It might lead to dancing.

Maybe the curator was afraid that seeing nude statues would make
people want to dance.

I don't disapprove of nudity by any means, nor do I think anyone
could consider me a prude on the subject of clothing - certainly not
after my exploits at Buffalo Gap (this was connected to the instance
of Roger wearing the orange mop-head for those curious).  I do
however believe that there are times when nudity or semi-nudity is
culturally appropriate and times when it is not (and as someone who
loves to swim nude, I'm very grateful that every dance camp I've been
to provides an area of culturally-acceptable nudity).  As the
wonderful social commentator Miss Manners is forever explaining to
those who observe that a pair of pajamas or nightgown covers more
than a typical bathing suit therefore they should be able to
entertain guests or go out in public in their pajamas, it is not the
amount of flesh that is covered, it is the cultural message that the
clothes convey which determines what is appropriate dress.  What in
anthropology is called semiotics (if I may be forgiven a moment of
academics) - the symbolic value communicated outside of language, by
our actions.  To me, men without shirts in public (outside the
culturally appropriate venue of the beach) convey two messages,
depending on context, neither of which I find appropriate in a dance.
 One is privilige. Men are allowed to take advantage of the comfort
of going shirtless in public in hot weather.  We all know what would
happen to a woman who tried that.  The other is intimacy.  A man not
wearing a shirt is to me a very intimate image, much more so than
outright nudity in some ways.  And it's a level of intimacy I don't
wish to experience on a dance floor.

Tank tops on men, on the other hand, are just downright ugly.
 


=====
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:49:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:45:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000223164544.17207.qmail-AT-
web3301.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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--- Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Men are allowed to take advantage of the
> comfort
> of going shirtless in public in hot weather. 
> 

I don't even go shirtless around my own house in hot weather
because I have found that I feel cooler with a cotton T-shirt
wicking the moisture off of me. I also don't feel it is
appropriate to be changing T-shirts out in the dance hall. If I
find it necessary to change shirts, I go the the restroom.
__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:05:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:04:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dance dress - was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <20000223170400.21186.qmail-AT-
web3306.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu> wrote:
> You should come to Salt Lake City.  Here, not even the statues
> are allowed
> to be nude *.  You would never see a man without a shirt at a
> dance.  I
> don't remember seeing any men in tank tops at dances here
> either.
> 
> *  When a collection of Rodin's art came to town a couple of
> years ago,
> "The Kiss" stayed in its crate.  The curator of Brigham Young
> University,
> where the exhibition was held, thought that looking at nude
> statues would
> give people inappropriate thoughts.
> 

I remember a high school English teacher pointing out that we
are more Puritanical than the Puritans ever were. But then They
came before the Victorian Era.

Andy in Portland
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:20:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:17:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: pool of dancers - was was Re: Plain vanilla contra dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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web3302.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:
> 
>    I think I could deal with nude contra or English dance, but
> I heard
> there was also nude clogging and the mental image that THAT
> conjures up
> makes me think that there is such a thing as Going Too Far
> (TM).  ;-)
> 

Were they allowed to wear shoes?? Clogging without shoes somehow
misses the point of making rhythm with the feet.

This thread reminds me of a particularly hot Pinewoods week
years ago. There was late night skinny-dipping (which had
generally been restricted to Round Pond) going on at the Long
Pond beach. People swam out to the float and were dancing on the
float. (I seem to remember that Jim Morrison had taken a tin
whistle out there with him.) The first figure was "up a double
and splash."

There are even stories of May Gadd and Douglas Kennedy being
among those skinny-dipping in Round Pond. I think those stories
came from George Fogg.

Andy in Portland
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:38:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:38:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Peterson <lyrlsbro-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: ECD/Playford for a contra crowd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> > Andrew Peterson wrote:
> > 
> > At ECD you won't find people groaning "Oh no, not a square!"
> > when you tell them to form sets for Newcastle. They also
> 
--- Ric Goldman <timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com> wrote:
> And chiming in with $.02...
> 
> That's because it's NOT a square, merely a four-couple set. 
> :-)
> Or even a quadrille, ANYTHING but a square... :-)
> 

But, to a Contra dancer *anything* in that formation *is* a
square. I believe that Sharp calls Newcastle a circle for four
couples. 

I usually don't dance squares a Contra. It is not because I
don't enjoy squares, it is because most people don't know how to
listen to the calls and respond. The dance often just becomes a
big mush and I don't enjoy that.

Andy in Portland
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Archive-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:57:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:48:04 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Dance dress --2
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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To justify my deisre to be dancing in a loin-cloth, let me add that, this
winter we have been meeting in an unheated hall, and most of the dancers
keep their coats and scarves on for at least part of the evening. We manage
to enjoy ourselves, but I am just longing for the warm weather to come back
-- and to be able to shed a few layers !
Martin,
 in Grenoble, France.

 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/scd.htm