Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 06:14:48 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:15:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

[details about Jack's Health snipped out]

 . . .  A good
> dance leader does not need to be told how long the As and Bs are, since
> s/he can read the music right there on the page and know, and since s/he
> should have determined that kind of thing when preparing to present the
> dance.

Very true, but I imagine that part of the purpose and appeal of the BN CDs
will be to help folks get started on their own, and in addition to not
having a band, they may not have the benefit of an experienced leader,
either.

> I join Julia in hoping that we will maintain high standards for leadership,
> including that all leaders can read music and determine tempi, both for the
> dancers and the band, and that leaders can tell when the band is wandering
> from the set tempo.

Are you saying that someone who is interested in leading English Country
Dance who can't read music yet must go off and learn that before
undertaking to learn to teach dance?  While I agree completely that a good
leader should be able to do the things you call for, the process of
getting there is different for each person, and for many, the door to
music is through dance, rather than the other way 'round.

And there are _many_ wonderful folk musicians who are excellent dance
musicians who can't read music or who read it so marginally that they
can't approach ECD music without either an enormous amount of work, or the
example that a recording can provide from which they can then learn the
tunes.  

I feel that a project of this nature and magnitude rightfully should
address the questions raised by the constant need to enable new folks to
take up this activity, whether as dancers, musicians, or leaders.  So I
think that the information given on the disk should be aimed not so
specifically at those who already know how to use the music, but at as
large a potential clientele as it conveniently can within the constraints
that the medium allows.  

The examples set by Nicholas Broadbridge and the Assembly Players with CDs
like "A Walsh Ball" and by Wild Thyme with "Dutch Crossing," with the
dance instructions published with the CD, extend the possible uses of
those CDs well beyond the current format of the Bare Necessities series.
While I believe it is far more common for folks in the UK to dance to
recordings than it is here, it's certainly better if folks are dancing to
records than not dancing at all.  I think it is to the benefit of all of
us if people can be encouraged to use these CDs for dancing where bands
and experienced leaders are not readily available, and that the more they
are "user-friendly" in this regard, the more that is likely to happen.  

It is hard to become an experienced leader, after all, without experience.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 06:33:41 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:34:18 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Well, of course, it's the old chicken and egg thing.  Which comes first -
leading, or reading music and dance instructions out of the book and
deciphering them.  And, of course, many would like to lead and share what
they love with their communities while not yet being fully prepared.

But the distinctive thing about our dancing is the link between the music
and the dance.  Often, we all know, a boring dance can be made quite
acceptable or even wonderful by super music.  And often, on the west side
of the pond, any other tune just won't do.

In fact, our insistence on the correct tune makes playing for our dancing
much more difficult, since 13, 15, 17 times through a tune - you just can't
play it the same way every time.  Improvising on a melody is much harder
than changing melodies.  Many highly trained and capable musicians can't
play without the notes in front of them, can't play anything but what they
see, can't even play the melody without the notes after they've played it
13 times for the dance.

So, actually, the CDs will become very helpful for new groups, but I still
maintain that training musicians and fully equipped leaders is where we
should be focussing our energies when we proselytise.  And the fully
equipped leader knows exactly how each figure fits the melody, and exactly
where the sections of the melody begin and end.

Not knowing this leads to sloppy leading and dancing, where the leader
cannot figure out why things didn't come out right at the end of the melody.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 08:45:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:45:21 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Right and Left
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion (not to mention a defense of my
very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly even
shameful, locution "mini grand right and left."  

The necessity of which this invention was born was my calling the Capital
(Albany, NY) English Country Dancers' "10th Anniversary Party."  Expecting
a good crowd of experienced dancers who had danced together regularly for
some or all of the 10 years since Nancy Yule founded the group, I had
planned a  program of old and new favorites that included several
challenging but highly rewarding dances (e.g. Miss deJersey's Memorial and
Gary Roodman's Homecoming).  

It soon became apparent, however, that the crowed included a large
contingent of folks (8 out of the total of 40-50) who clearly had never
done any English dancing before, who seemed to be acquainted with one
another, and who seemed to move well without getting flustered as beginners
typically do.  When I asked one of them about their background, I was told
"We do square dances, and some Scottish.  We were in the area attending
other dance events."

For a 10th Anniversary gala masquerade party, I wasn't about to teach much
of anything, nor did I want to deprive the regulars of some meaty material.
 So I improvised along the way.  I dropped some dances, made substitutions,
asked the "beginners" to sit out for Miss deJ. and watch a lovely dance,
came up with some odd descriptions of things, etc.  As Emily Ferguson
proferred, "mini grand right and left" did indeed work like a charm.  I did
not teach the figure at all, and *no one* went wrong.  It worked because
"grand-right-and-left" has morphed into a single word entry in our brain's
lexicon (certainly for square dancers), not a noun-phrase consisting of
noun logically modified by a rule (i.e. a "big" right and left). [This idea
is informed by the work of MIT linguist Steven Pinker.  If you don't have
any of his books, don't waste another moment reading this drivel and click
on over to Amazon or BarnesandNoble and order "The Language Instinct" or
"Words and Rules."   Not too technical, often amusing or hilarious, and
informative reading, and musts for any caller, IMHO] Grand-right-and-left,
is a single, compound word that means a forward motion, in a single
circular direction, passing other dancers hand over hand.  So "mini" is
just a smaller one of those.

Do other callers have any other quickie "non-teaching" favorite tricks for
some of our favorite figures?

BTW, when I do have occasion to "teach" 4 changes of rights and lefts, I do
it without hands first.  We all know that if you describe the figure to
beginners using hands, the 2nd corner people invariably go wrong.  I ask
folks to dance around the foursome, passing partner by the right shoulder,
turning to face neighbor and passing left shoulder, etc.  Only after
walking that once or twice do I then say "Now do the same thing with
hands."  Later on in the evening or class series, we enhance the "pass by
with hands" into the half-turn that adds connection and grace.

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Caller, and Musician and owner of a purple Dodge."Grand Caravan
SE" minivan.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:09:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:09:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Gene Murrow writes:
> 
> BTW, when I do have occasion to "teach" 4 changes of rights and lefts, I do
> it without hands first.  We all know that if you describe the figure to
> beginners using hands, the 2nd corner people invariably go wrong.  I ask
> folks to dance around the foursome, passing partner by the right shoulder,
> turning to face neighbor and passing left shoulder, etc.  Only after
> walking that once or twice do I then say "Now do the same thing with
> hands."  Later on in the evening or class series, we enhance the "pass by
> with hands" into the half-turn that adds connection and grace.

   I have used the "mini-grand-right-and-left" phrase myself upon occasion.
In fact I used it last Saturday night at the Gypsy Moon Ball in Indianapolis.
I think you are correct about GRL being thought of as a single entity and
mini merely being a modifier that people can understand.  I've also noticed
the tendency of people to turn the wrong direction when doing rights and
lefts in a group of 4, so teaching it without hands might have a benefit.
I'll try it the next time.

   I noticed the opposite problem when teaching Chelmsford Assembly some
time back.  There is a circular hey (rights and lefts without hands, if you
will) for 6 people in it.  The group I was teaching it too seemed to have
trouble with the concept.  I finally thought of having them do it with
hands (a la grand-right-and-left) and then repeat the same motion without
hands.  This seemed to work.

Jonathan

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Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:18:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:15:31 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Warped and Micro Right & Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991101125635.00a47600-AT-
209.183.254.10>
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--Boundary_(ID_qEurohvFDliU6CK02CKe0w)
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At 11:45 AM 11/1/1999 , you wrote:
>In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion (not to mention a defense of my
>very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly even
>shameful, locution "mini grand right and left."  
>
>The necessity of which this invention

Ah, Necessity, the Mother of Invention . . . a famous EC that has not been written.

But, I digress.

As Gene so aptly pointed out, the phrase mini-grand right & left is valuable because: "Grand-right-and-left,
is a single, compound word that means a forward motion, in a single circular direction, passing other dancers hand over hand."

I (caller-NOT) was recently asked to help teach a hey for four at (shh . . .) a contra dance.  The dancers were totally new.  It was once pointed out to me by friend Neil that a hey for four, across the set, is just a variation on grand right and left.  So, I told the dancers: ladies, grab right hands in the middle, etc. . . . just like a grand right & left.  Next time thru, we did it with no hands.  They learned what is one of the more difficult figures in contra/ECD in a flash.  Perhaps, then, a hey for three is a micro-grand right & left, w/o hands?  As for the purist who likes to use dance-form-specific terminology, well, we can always say it originated with ECD and the grand right & left is just a variation of moves that were choreographed long ago under a different name . . . er what WAS that terminology?  Then, there's contra corners, an allemande-ish hey of somewhat more complexity, er, a mondo right & left.

Then, there's the grand right and wrong . . . probably fits into this discussion in some oblique fashion.

Looking forward to seeing many of you at NOMAD . . . yippee!

-- Roger
_  _  ________________ _  ____________________________________________
  /__) _,___,  _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: Roger-AT-
just.net
          _/_               www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html
_______ (/____________________________________________________________

--Boundary_(ID_qEurohvFDliU6CK02CKe0w)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<html>
At 11:45 AM 11/1/1999 , you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion
(not to mention a defense of my<br>
very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly
even<br>
shameful, locution &quot;mini grand right and left.&quot;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
The necessity of which this invention</blockquote><br>
Ah, Necessity, the Mother of Invention . . . a famous EC that has not
been written.<br>
<br>
But, I digress.<br>
<br>
As Gene so aptly pointed out, the phrase mini-grand right &amp; left is
valuable because: &quot;Grand-right-and-left,<br>
is a single, compound word that means a forward motion, in a single
circular direction, passing other dancers hand over hand.&quot;<br>
<br>
I (caller-NOT) was recently asked to help teach a hey for four at (shh .
. .) a contra dance.&nbsp; The dancers were totally new.&nbsp; It was
once pointed out to me by friend Neil that a hey for four, across the
set, is just a variation on grand right and left.&nbsp; So, I told the
dancers: ladies, grab right hands in the middle, etc. . . . just like a
grand right &amp; left.&nbsp; Next time thru, we did it with no
hands.&nbsp; They learned what is one of the more difficult figures in
contra/ECD in a flash.&nbsp; Perhaps, then, a hey for three is a
micro-grand right &amp; left, w/o hands?&nbsp; As for the purist who
likes to use dance-form-specific terminology, well, we can always say it
originated with ECD and the grand right &amp; left is just a variation of
moves that were choreographed long ago under a different name . . . er
what WAS that terminology?&nbsp; Then, there's contra corners, an
allemande-ish hey of somewhat more complexity, er, a mondo right &amp;
left.<br>
<br>
Then, there's the grand right and wrong . . . probably fits into this
discussion in some oblique fashion.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to seeing many of you at NOMAD . . . yippee!<br>

<br>
-- <i>Roger<br>
</i>_&nbsp; _&nbsp; ________________ _&nbsp;
____________________________________________<br>
&nbsp;/__) _,___,&nbsp; _&nbsp;&nbsp; _&nbsp;&nbsp; /_)&nbsp; Contra
dancing fanatic, English country<br>
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.&nbsp; Email:
Roger-AT-
just.net<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
_/_&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html" eudora="autourl">www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html</a><br>
_______
(/____________________________________________________________</html>

--Boundary_(ID_qEurohvFDliU6CK02CKe0w)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:44:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:46:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991101184654.14242.rocketmail-AT-
web2905.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion (not to mention a
> defense of my
> very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly
> even
> shameful, locution "mini grand right and left."  

I think the "mini grand right and left" is brillaintly simple (or is
it simply brillaint?)  It conveys a clear image of the move with a
minimum of verbiage which after all is the goal of description, isn't
it?

Barbara Ruth

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:56:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:56:47 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b443928632e2-AT-
[140.186.55.36]>
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Your basic grand R&L is a with hands movement.  That's why there's a
special call in square dancing for no hands.

In addition, giving hands makes it so much harder to turn around and go off
in the wrong direction - there's someone offering you the next hand, right
there in front of you!


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:19:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:22:02 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MDDL, was Re: The Imagined Village
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Stephanie Smith writes:

>>I'm sure the book caused quite a stir in the ritual community.

If by "ritual community" you mean all morris & sword dancers, I'll bet it
did.  The Imagined Village was certainly an equal-opportunity slaughter;
Boyes barely left anyone standing, from the "we're reviving the pagan
priesthood" people to the "we're just hearty working-class villagers doing
it for the cadging" contingent.

I found her treatment of ECD interesting mainly for its discussion of
gender-balancing, since my first forays into the ECD list archives turned up
a lengthy and heartfelt discussion of that same topic.  My impression is
that fewer and fewer organizations are adhering to gender balancing rules at
dances (comments?), but my astonishment is that this was an issue as
recently as the last couple of years.  Boyes' comment about EFDSS rules
excluding women from ECD dances where there was a "shortage" of men is:

"...the prospect of recognizing that the same membership fees as men should
provide women with the same membership rights as men proved too
revolutionary for the Society's hierarchy to cope with. . . . Although women
dancing together had long been an unremarked aspect of behaviour in dance
halls and ballrooms throughout the country, its existence in English Folk
Dance and Song Society performances was uniquely and increasingly
controversial."

And this is the 1940s she's talking about.  It's a little depressing that
the same topic had to be discussed in the 1990s.

Marian Phillips

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:45:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:45:33 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <199911011445_MC2-8B3F-98D9-AT-
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Leave it to the active minds on this list to turn an off-hand "BTW" into a
discussion of some pretty important issues (like what preparation callers
should have before leading ECD, and how circumstances may affect the
ideal)....  Is this a great country, or what?

Anyway, leaving aside the big issue for a moment, and responding to Eric's
points:

>even when the dance figures for A1 & A2 are quite different -- does that
mean you would list it, for example, as ABB?

I wouldn't.  Jack's Health being a case in point.  The A1 dance figure is
very different from the A2 dance figure, but I would still designate it as
"AA..." because: a) the tune "Bolt the Door" is always noted with the A
music repeated (not only in Barnes, but in a venerable source, Francis
O'Neill's "Dance Music of Ireland," published in Dublin), b) the dance
instructions are always noted A1 and A2, and c) to a dancer's ears it
sounds like a standard-length  phrase repeated, which it is!

>I think I would opt for the description which fits most closely the thing
being described, in this case, the music.

I agree, but the problem arises where there's ambiguity in the notation of
the music.  Consider "From Aberdeen."   Peter Barnes notates the opening as
a 4-bar phrase, repeated  (AA?).  Sharp's "Country Dance Tunes" (the old
original Novello stuff) notates it as a single 8-bar phrase.  Sharp's dance
instructions, which remains the most current printed source (to my
knowledge), describes the corresponding movement as a single "A" phrase (it
is a single continuous movement).   In all cases, the "B" is an 8-bar
phrase, repeated, so I opted for the designation "ABB."  Three phrases,
each 8 bars long. Jacqueline Schwab, however, did wonder whether it should
have been AABB.  Any other opinions?

All this is trivia.  The important thing is that callers should encourage
dancers to *listen to the musical phrases* and shape their movements to the
music as they hear it! "Bars of music" means practically nothing to most
dancers, nor should it.  It's up to the caller to figure out how the
movement fits beforehand and to teach/doodle/prompt/demonstrate it so that
the synchronization is apparent (on rare occasions number cues/counting are
helpful, but that's a whole other bone we've chewed on).  We're talking
here about how callers prepare.  They can do whatever works-- preparing "by
ear," playing a recording until they can visualize or feel how the movement
fits-- or "by sight," reading the music and looking at the dance 
instructions.  As is often the case, extra knowledge (an ability to read
music as required by the latter method) pays off in efficiency and
accuracy.   That's why I encourage callers to learn the rudiments of music,
and why I teach workshops in such skills.

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:32:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:35:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991101203503.16263.rocketmail-AT-
web2902.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> Gene Murrow
> EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King

But not CC Ryder? 


Barbara Ruth

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:47:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:54:45 -0400
From: sheilab-AT-
tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v0153050cb443a0655b30-AT-
[206.119.45.178]>
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>--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>> Gene Murrow
>> EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King
>
>But not CC Ryder?
or DeeDee Sharp?  (not related to Cecil, I think...)

Sorry, I can't resist....

Sheila Beardslee Bosworth        sheilab-AT-
tiac.net
Editor, Boston Early Music News     Deadline  Nov 25 for Dec 15  issue
    for all events Events Dec 15-Jan 31
    WEB Calendar  http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/concerts/bemn/
Pavane  website http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~nhmuse/Pavane

29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505
VOX  978/263.9926      FAX  978/263.2366




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:56:20 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:56:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Orly Krasner <okrasner-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Alphabet soup
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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hotmail.com>
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Oh, well.  If we've made it this far, I have to throw in e. e. cummings. . .
--Orly Krasner (who sometimes reads poetry when she's not busy concocting 
new dances. . . did someone suggest "Mother of Invention" as a title. . .?!)
okrasner-AT-
hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:57:02 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:13:13 -0500
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Warning: BAD Pun/Null Content
To: ECD-AT-
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That husband of mine just sent me an e-card asking whether we'd be dancing
Knives and Fawkes this Friday night.
Bad, David, bad!!
Hugs,
Sharon
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:05:11 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:05:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Alphabet soup
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Orly Krasner wrote:
> Oh, well.  If we've made it this far, I have to throw in e. e. cummings. 

NOT a fan of President Ferris F Fremont (but a big fan of Philip K Dick),

--will

11/01/0079 - Pompei buried by Mt Vesuvius
11/01/1604 - William Shakespeare's tragedy "Othello" 1st presented
11/01/1611 - Shakespeare's romantic comedy "Tempest" 1st presented
11/01/1765 - Stamp Act goes into effect in British colonies
11/01/1834 - 1st published reference to poker as Miss. riverboat game

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:41:03 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:41:21 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Warning: BAD Pun/Null Content
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
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That, David... what a guy!

Gene
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:58:04 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:56:24 -0500
From: Ridge Kennedy <srkennedy-AT-
email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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In squares, the figure you're describing would be more accurately described
by saying "square thru four hands" -- though trad-dancers would "get" the
explanation.  "Grand" in scientific "modern western" square terminology
describes figures that involve all eight dancers.

R.

Ridge Kennedy
Washington, NJ (No Exit)
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:56:24 -0500
From: Ridge Kennedy <srkennedy-AT-
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Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[140.186.55.36]>

In squares, the figure you're describing would be more accurately described
by saying "square thru four hands" -- though trad-dancers would "get" the
explanation.  "Grand" in scientific "modern western" square terminology
describes figures that involve all eight dancers.

R.

Ridge Kennedy
Washington, NJ (No Exit)
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:08:15 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:12:01 -0500
From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
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Every English school child used to know the story of Guy Fawkes, 
primarily because it was the occasion for bonfires, the burning of a guy 
(that is, an effigy of said Fawkes), and FIREWORKS. The customs today I 
cannot vouch for, but until 1939 (the outbreak of World War II) children 
would make a guy, put it on a soapbox on wheels, and go round the 
streets asking "A penny for the guy". Or they might recite:
Please to remember the Fifth of November
The Gunpowder treason and plot.
I see no reason
Wny Gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

While the "Gunpowder treason" was horrible in intent, it would not have 
survived if it had not attached itself to some older and more 
deep-seated celebration. At the end of October and the beginning of 
November (calendars were neither exact nor correlated) fires had been 
lighted from time immemorial all over Europe, marking the change of 
seasons. Fawkes was lucky enough (lucky?) to supplant the old ritual of 
tree and leaf-burning. Halloween is related.

Incidentally, we should remember the original Guy Fawkes Day as the last 
serious attempt to raise politicians to a higher level.

But I like Knives and Fawkes.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:46:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:46:16 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <monson-AT-
talk21.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <007d01bf24c3$6bb65f80$6a7a8cd4-AT-
trevormo>
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aol.com>

With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
"Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?

I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
more.

Trevor Monson
(who dances mostly in Yorkshire)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:34:40 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Trevor Monson wrote:

  With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
  "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?

  I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
  hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
  be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
  more.

Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because of Levi Jackson
Rag, where I sometimes hear the five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
Grand Chain, but I think I've heard it used as you suggest here.  

I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure with hands
and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but whichever I call someone will
invariably ask whether that's with hands or not.  "Circular Hey" seems to be
Cecil Sharp's terminology, rather than from historical sources; some leaders
replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) which is more
descriptive. 

-- Alan















     


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:51:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:50:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: "Andrew D. Peterson" <adpete-AT-
jps.net>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <381dfd04.453.0-AT-
jps.net>
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>Trevor Monson wrote:
>> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >> the term
"Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
>>
>> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" 
>> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. 
>> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a 
>> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
>>
>Alan Winston wrote:
>Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of Levi Jackson
Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.  
>
>I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure >with hands
and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but >whichever I call someone will
invariably ask whether that's >with hands or not.  "Circular Hey" seems to be
Cecil Sharp's >terminology, rather than from historical sources; some leaders

>replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) >which is more
descriptive. 
>

"Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies chain across
in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand Right &
Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably creates
confusion.

Andy in Portland
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:55:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:51:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.991101235029.28465A-100000-AT-
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Sheila Beardslee Bosworth wrote:

> >--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gene Murrow
> >> EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King
> >
> >But not CC Ryder?
> or DeeDee Sharp?  (not related to Cecil, I think...)
> 
> Sorry, I can't resist....

Or, of course, e. e. cummings.

(I couldn't resist either.)
 
Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:09:40 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:56:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Trevor Monson wrote:

> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
> "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> 
> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
> hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
> be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
> more.

We use said terms here in St. Louis, MO, USA.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:47:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:48:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dr Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <SIMEON.9911020821.A-AT-
sixup.oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
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Square thru four hands leaves you without the final 
right-angle change of direction (ie passing straight on 
after the last left instead of turning right) which occurs 
in a hey for 4 or English right-and-left thru (Across and 
back).
Usually important distinction for the next figure - 
neighbour or partner:)
Paul

On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:56:24 -0500 Ridge Kennedy 
<srkennedy-AT-
email.msn.com> wrote:

> In squares, the figure you're describing would be more 
> accurately described by saying "square thru four hands" -- 
> though trad-dancers would "get" the explanation.  "Grand" 
> in scientific "modern western" square terminology describes 
> figures that involve all eight dancers.
> 
> R.
> 
> Ridge Kennedy
> Washington, NJ (No Exit)
> When you stumble, make it part of the dance.
> 

----------------------
Dr Paul Davis
Computer Teaching Officer, OUCS, 
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN
01865 283414

-------------------------------------------------------------


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 05:14:07 PST
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:19:12 +0000
From: Douglas Goss <douglas-AT-
goss89.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Halloween and Guy Fawkes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000201bf2536$10df6200$49b7883e-AT-
e7p5o4>
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While the "Gunpowder treason" was horrible in intent, it would not have
survived if it had not attached itself to some older and more
deep-seated celebration. At the end of October and the beginning of
November (calendars were neither exact nor correlated) fires had been
lighted from time immemorial all over Europe, marking the change of
seasons. Fawkes was lucky enough (lucky?) to supplant the old ritual of
tree and leaf-burning. Halloween is related.


In reply to this......


The old festival was called "Samhien" (pronounced sa-waine) and was the
traditional celtic New Year, dating from the celtic times - the seasons
changing from the harvest, therefore fruitful time, to the winter, a much
harder, darker time. Therefore, the sun was encouraged by bonfires and
sacrifices i.e. burning of sacrifices. The reason why apples are so
important at this time of year is that apples are a sacred fruit. Because it
is the turning of the year, it was felt that the veil between the worlds was
thin, so the ancestors could be contacted, and spirits and ghosts were more
likely to be present. Some people (pagans) still celebrate this and other
ancient festivals.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:34:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:36:27 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <381F04FB.EE9AEB18-AT-
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I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I know
where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I believe the
Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could someone
let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in from the
north (Haverill area).

Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:37:41 PST
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:39:26 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Truckee-Reno
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I will be in the Truckee California area from January 13th to the 25th.
Will be tied up with family some of the time but would like to know if
there is any English or Scottish Country Dancing in either the Truckee
Ca or Reno Nev. area during that time. Have danced with the Truckee SCD
group before.

Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:03:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:04:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911021604.KAA13742-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Andrew D. Peterson writes:
> 
> "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies chain across
> in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand Right &
> Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably creates
> confusion.
> 
   While this is true I have heard several square callers use the phrase
"chain the hall" as part of their patter while calling a Grand Right and Left.

   As someone else mentioned in an earlier message I like to use "rights
and lefts" when it is to be done with hands and "circular hey" when done
without hands, though I may try the "square hey" idea.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:46:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:47:31 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Halloween and Guy Fawkes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b12b444c4b28262-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
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Couldn't the tradition of bonfires on Guy Fawkes Night be related to having
to get rid of a lot of garden debris in autumn - fallen leaves, tree
prunings etc.  I'm sure that is the reason that bonfires on Nov 5th have
survived in so many families.  And couldn't the reason for the importance
of apples be that they were once virtually the only fresh fruit at this
time of year in Britain, and also the easiest to preserve through winter.

Sorry this is getting so off-topic.

Emma


>While the "Gunpowder treason" was horrible in intent, it would not have
>survived if it had not attached itself to some older and more
>deep-seated celebration. At the end of October and the beginning of
>November (calendars were neither exact nor correlated) fires had been
>lighted from time immemorial all over Europe, marking the change of
>seasons. Fawkes was lucky enough (lucky?) to supplant the old ritual of
>tree and leaf-burning. Halloween is related.
>
>
>In reply to this......
>
>
>The old festival was called "Samhien" (pronounced sa-waine) and was the
>traditional celtic New Year, dating from the celtic times - the seasons
>changing from the harvest, therefore fruitful time, to the winter, a much
>harder, darker time. Therefore, the sun was encouraged by bonfires and
>sacrifices i.e. burning of sacrifices. The reason why apples are so
>important at this time of year is that apples are a sacred fruit. Because it
>is the turning of the year, it was felt that the veil between the worlds was
>thin, so the ancestors could be contacted, and spirits and ghosts were more
>likely to be present. Some people (pagans) still celebrate this and other
>ancient festivals.

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:22:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <0.55fb4423.255077c1-AT-
aol.com>
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So, somehow we expect people to be more baffled by "mini grand right and left" than by "half a double figure of eight"?

Nilos Nevertheless
who can go in several contradictory directions simultaneously even without a confusing call, but not on behalf of any government agency.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:49:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:48:49 -0500
From: Brad Foster <brad.foster-AT-
cdss.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: news of death of CDSS members on the Egypt Air flight
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991102134818.009e5bb0-AT-
crocker.com>
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Dear ECD list,

I've just received the following from George Fogg:

"I have to report that Anne Soernssen & Gloria Berchielli were aboard the 
Egypt Air that crashed this weekend.  Terry Soernssen, sister in law, 
called to confirm it today."

Anne and Gloria were both long time CDSS members, active in the NYC area. 
Gloria worked for us for a while in the early 1980's, and was particularly 
involved with our programs at Pinewoods Camp and weekends at Hudson Guild 
Farm. We will miss them both a great deal.

We've been asked to spread the sad news. If you knew either of them, and 
know others that do, please pass on this information. We would also like to 
print a notice of their deaths in the News; please send us any information 
you know that should be in such notice, as well as remembrances.

Brad

Brad Foster				Country Dance and Song Society
Executive and Artistic Director		PO Box 338/132 Main St
brad.foster-AT-
cdss.org			Haydenville, MA 01039-0338
413-268-7426 x100   fax:413-268-7471	http://www.cdss.org
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:17:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:18:15 -0500
From: "Albert A. Blank" <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <381F38F7.FD075A9B-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <01JHTUZLIUA4A5U57C-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

    The term for circular hey in square dancing that is not heard much anymore is
"weave the ring".  I prefer it.
Al

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Trevor Monson wrote:
>
>   With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
>   "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
>
>   I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
>   hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
>   be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
>   more.
>
> Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because of Levi Jackson
> Rag, where I sometimes hear the five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
> Grand Chain, but I think I've heard it used as you suggest here.
>
> I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure with hands
> and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but whichever I call someone will
> invariably ask whether that's with hands or not.  "Circular Hey" seems to be
> Cecil Sharp's terminology, rather than from historical sources; some leaders
> replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) which is more
> descriptive.
>
> -- Alan
>
>
>
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
> ===============================================================================

--
Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
102 Loring Avenue
Pelham, NY 10803-2014

Tel. 914 738-7678
e-mail: fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:55:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:55:32 -0800
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com
Message-ID: <199911022155.AA234129732-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Here's an item in the "everybody thinks of things in their own way"
department.  I was teaching a folk dance group, and did one of those
dances with a circular hey in a 3-couple set (top couple begin across,
middle couple down, bottom couple up).

I knew that many of the dancers also did square dancing, so I taught
it as, "face this way, then do a grand right and left."  I spent more
time than usual on which way to face at the beginning, and less than
usual on how to do a circular hey, smugly relying on what they already
knew.

It broke, quite severely, in one set.  I gave that couple another look
at how the figure begins, and reminded them that then "it's just like
grand right and left."  I knew these particular dancers were
experienced square dancers.  (By the way, the problem wasn't 8 changes
instead of 6 -- someone was going the wrong way somewhere in the
middle.)

I never did get that set sorted out, and wound up just running the
dance, with them improvising each time that figure came around.
Afterwards I was talking with one of the dancers and he volunteered
that he found my directions odd, "because you had me facing clockwise
to begin, but in grand right and left the men go counterclockwise."

Bruce Hamilton			Agilent Laboratories             MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
hpl.hp.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:56:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:16:42 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <monson-AT-
talk21.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002101bf257d$51e0f420$3454ac3e-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <381dfd04.453.0-AT-
jps.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew D. Peterson <adpete-AT-
jps.net>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Right and Left


> >Trevor Monson wrote:
> >> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >>
the term
> "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> >>
> >> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left"
> >> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands.
> >> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a
> >> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
> >>
> >Alan Winston wrote:
> >Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of
Levi Jackson
> Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a
ladies
> Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.
> >
> >I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure >with
hands
> and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but >whichever I call
someone will
> invariably ask whether that's >with hands or not.  "Circular Hey"
seems to be
> Cecil Sharp's >terminology, rather than from historical sources; some
leaders
>
> >replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) >which
is more
> descriptive.
> >
> Andy in Portland wrote:
> "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies
chain across
> in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand
Right &
> Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably
creates
> confusion.
>

Over here (in England that is), for Levi Jackson, I think I have only
heard the figure called as "all 5 ladies chain" or "Chain all the ladies
in" so we haven't been confused with "Grand Chain" in that respect.

Our problem is with "Circular Heys" as people nearly  always ask "with
or without hands?".  The accepted terminology is that this is without
hands, but if no-one asks, then people tend to do what they feel happier
with - so the "accepted etiquette" is that if someone offers you a hand
you take it - do not just ignore it with your nose in the air! (even if
it is "wrong").

When callers are calling a mixture of "English" and "American" they tend
to try and keep to the accepted terminology of each style so say "right
and left through" wouldn't be used in English, but "half right and left"
would etc. etc.
To me (who does not call many American Squares or Contras, but tends to
stick to English old and new) "American" terminology appears to be far
more precise, so exactly the correct call must be used to leave people
facing in the correct direction for the next part of the figure.  In
"English" it doesn't seem to need to be that precise as the figures are
more forgiving (maybe? - did I really say that?!)

However, whatever the terminology, surely if everyone understands what
the caller means, and can carry out the manoeuvre satisfactorily, there
is not a problem.  (But one problem I do get, in "Scottish" is trying to
differentiate between "wheels" and "reels" - especially when said with a
Scottish accent. Thank goodness we can call them "stars" and "heys" in
English.

Trevor Monson
(Still dancing in Yorkshire)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:45:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:43:31 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130301b44527909a4d-AT-
[140.186.55.181]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ah.  The joys of literal mindedness.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 16:15:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:06:40 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002d01bf2590$a0071400$a3e0490c-AT-
pavilion>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <381dfd04.453.0-AT-
jps.net> <002101bf257d$51e0f420$3454ac3e-AT-
trevormo>

In Scottish I've had the same problem so try to say right hands in for a
wheel or left hands in for a wheel (so they don't think I'm saying "reel").
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Trevor Monson <monson-AT-
talk21.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Right and Left


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew D. Peterson <adpete-AT-
jps.net>
> To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Right and Left
>
>
> > >Trevor Monson wrote:
> > >> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >>
> the term
> > "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> > >>
> > >> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left"
> > >> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands.
> > >> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a
> > >> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
> > >>
> > >Alan Winston wrote:
> > >Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of
> Levi Jackson
> > Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a
> ladies
> > Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.
> > >
> > >I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure >with
> hands
> > and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but >whichever I call
> someone will
> > invariably ask whether that's >with hands or not.  "Circular Hey"
> seems to be
> > Cecil Sharp's >terminology, rather than from historical sources; some
> leaders
> >
> > >replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) >which
> is more
> > descriptive.
> > >
> > Andy in Portland wrote:
> > "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies
> chain across
> > in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand
> Right &
> > Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably
> creates
> > confusion.
> >
>
> Over here (in England that is), for Levi Jackson, I think I have only
> heard the figure called as "all 5 ladies chain" or "Chain all the ladies
> in" so we haven't been confused with "Grand Chain" in that respect.
>
> Our problem is with "Circular Heys" as people nearly  always ask "with
> or without hands?".  The accepted terminology is that this is without
> hands, but if no-one asks, then people tend to do what they feel happier
> with - so the "accepted etiquette" is that if someone offers you a hand
> you take it - do not just ignore it with your nose in the air! (even if
> it is "wrong").
>
> When callers are calling a mixture of "English" and "American" they tend
> to try and keep to the accepted terminology of each style so say "right
> and left through" wouldn't be used in English, but "half right and left"
> would etc. etc.
> To me (who does not call many American Squares or Contras, but tends to
> stick to English old and new) "American" terminology appears to be far
> more precise, so exactly the correct call must be used to leave people
> facing in the correct direction for the next part of the figure.  In
> "English" it doesn't seem to need to be that precise as the figures are
> more forgiving (maybe? - did I really say that?!)
>
> However, whatever the terminology, surely if everyone understands what
> the caller means, and can carry out the manoeuvre satisfactorily, there
> is not a problem.  (But one problem I do get, in "Scottish" is trying to
> differentiate between "wheels" and "reels" - especially when said with a
> Scottish accent. Thank goodness we can call them "stars" and "heys" in
> English.
>
> Trevor Monson
> (Still dancing in Yorkshire)
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 17:05:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 20:04:51 -0500
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b44537e1d130-AT-
[209.244.244.198]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <199911011741_MC2-8B48-3675-AT-
compuserve.com>

>I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
>workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I know
>where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I believe the
>Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could someone
>let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in from the
>north (Haverill area).
>
>Ben Stein
>dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net

The saturday dance with Bruce Hamilton (workshop from 2-5pm, and dance
party from 8 to 11pm) will be held at the Park Avenue Congregational Church
in Arlington Heights.  You can find the church at the corner of Park Avenue
and Paul Revere Road - church entry is on Paul Revere road. By car: from
route 2 go north on Park Avenue in Arlington Heights; or from Massachusetts
Avenue go south 1 block on Park Avenue.

Public transportation from central Boston - quoting from Lyrl Ahern:

>Take the red line to Harvard. Get off there, follow signs to the buses,
>and take the #77 bus out Mass. Ave. to Arlington Heights. That is the
>end of the line. Ask the bus driver to let you off at Park Ave.
>(actually a block short of the end). Go up the hill one block to the
>corner of Paul Revere. The church is on your right.
>Enter on Paul Revere.

See you all there - Linda


__________________________________________________
"Oh, yes.  It's vital to remember who you really are.
It's very important.  It isn't a good idea to rely on other
people or things to do it for you, you see.  They always
get it wrong."        (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery")
__________________________________________________


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:45:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:45:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce's Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991103024540.3814.rocketmail-AT-
web2103.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net> wrote:

> >I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
> >workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I
> know
> >where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I
> believe the
> >Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could
> someone
> >let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in
> from the
> >north (Haverill area).
> >
> >Ben Stein
> >dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net

> 
> The saturday dance with Bruce Hamilton (workshop from 2-5pm, and
> dance
> party from 8 to 11pm) will be held at the Park Avenue
> Congregational Church
> in Arlington Heights.  You can find the church at the corner of
> Park Avenue
> and Paul Revere Road - church entry is on Paul Revere road. By car:
> from
> route 2 go north on Park Avenue in Arlington Heights; or from
> Massachusetts
> Avenue go south 1 block on Park Avenue.
> 
> Public transportation from central Boston - quoting from Lyrl
> Ahern:
> 
> >Take the red line to Harvard. Get off there, follow signs to the
> buses,
> >and take the #77 bus out Mass. Ave. to Arlington Heights. That is
> the
> >end of the line. Ask the bus driver to let you off at Park Ave.
> >(actually a block short of the end). Go up the hill one block to
> the
> >corner of Paul Revere. The church is on your right.
> >Enter on Paul Revere.
> 
> See you all there - Linda

Thanks, Linda, for posting that information.

Here is a slightly amplified verson of the driving directions:

Come in Route 2 to exit 58, Park Avenue to Arlington
Heights. Go over the hill, passing the water tower to your right,
going downhill and through a light. 

As the hill gets steeper and you can see the light at a major
intersection (Mass. Ave.) at the bottom of the hill, look for the
Park Ave. Congregational Church on your left. It is one block uphill
from Mass. Ave. at the corner of Paul Revere Rd.

Parking is on the streets adjacent to the church. The entrance to the
hall is on Paul Revere Road.

--Lyrl




=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:14:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 08:16:16 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <382035A0.90F1E471-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <199911011741_MC2-8B48-3675-AT-
compuserve.com> <l03130300b44537e1d130-AT-
[209.244.244.198]>



"Linda M. Nelson" wrote:

> >I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
> >workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I know
> >where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I believe the
> >Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could someone
> >let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in from the
> >north (Haverill area).
> >
> >Ben Stein
> >dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net
>
> The saturday dance with Bruce Hamilton (workshop from 2-5pm, and dance
> party from 8 to 11pm) will be held at the Park Avenue Congregational Church
> in Arlington Heights.  You can find the church at the corner of Park Avenue
> and Paul Revere Road - church entry is on Paul Revere road. By car: from
> route 2 go north on Park Avenue in Arlington Heights; or from Massachusetts
> Avenue go south 1 block on Park Avenue.
>
> Public transportation from central Boston - quoting from Lyrl Ahern:
>
> >Take the red line to Harvard. Get off there, follow signs to the buses,
> >and take the #77 bus out Mass. Ave. to Arlington Heights. That is the
> >end of the line. Ask the bus driver to let you off at Park Ave.
> >(actually a block short of the end). Go up the hill one block to the
> >corner of Paul Revere. The church is on your right.
> >Enter on Paul Revere.
>

Thank you very much Linda. Will see you there, if I don't see you before: at
the Friday evening dance in Brookline.

Ben Stein




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:26:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 08:28:37 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce's Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38203885.ECD5BE87-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <19991103024540.3814.rocketmail-AT-
web2103.mail.yahoo.com>



Lyrl Ahern wrote:

> Here is a slightly amplified verson of the driving directions:
>
> Come in Route 2 to exit 58, Park Avenue to Arlington
> Heights. Go over the hill, passing the water tower to your right,
> going downhill and through a light.
>
> As the hill gets steeper and you can see the light at a major
> intersection (Mass. Ave.) at the bottom of the hill, look for the
> Park Ave. Congregational Church on your left. It is one block uphill
> from Mass. Ave. at the corner of Paul Revere Rd.
>
> Parking is on the streets adjacent to the church. The entrance to the
> hall is on Paul Revere Road.
>
> --Lyrl

Thank you Lyrl for the amplified directions. They should be a big help. I
used to come in to Boston on Rt 2 often when my wife and Mother in Law
were both still alive but am not very familiar with the area where the
church is. My Mother in Law lived in Chelmsford.

See you this weekend.

Ben



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:34:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 13:31:25 -0500
From: MARTHA C DAVEY <marthacd-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: 18th century American
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991103.133142.-227337.0.marthaCD-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Hello all-
	I received a phone call from a couple in Brooklyn, NY who would like to
hire some musicians, 
a leader and some dancers to perform and teach 18th century American
Dances  in costume on 
Thanksgiving Friday Evening. They have a large room which could
accommodate 70 dancers, 
mostly their guests. If anyone knows of the availability of such a group,
please contact me privately.  
If anyone could repost this to another appropriate list, that would be
helpful also. 
Thanks for your help  
Martha
Martha Davey
25-14 37 ST,
Astoria, NY 11103
(718)278-4389    voice/fax #(917)463-9781 (NYC area code)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:19:44 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:52:36 +0000
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Andrew D. Peterson wrote:

> >Trevor Monson wrote:
> >> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >> the term
> "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> >>
> >> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" 
> >> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. 
> >> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a 
> >> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
> >>
> >Alan Winston wrote:
> >Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of Levi Jackson
> Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
> Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.  
> >
> 
> "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies chain across
> in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand Right &
> Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably creates
> confusion.

I'm wondering if there's a UK / US split here. In my experience in 
the UK, "grand chain" means "grand right and left" and nobody is 
confused by it because "grand chain" has no other meaning. In the 
US "grand chain" means "all four (or five) ladies chain". It's not right 
or wrong, it's just different. I don't even think it's a square / no-
square distinction, I've danced MWSD and trad. squares in the UK 
and never heard "grand chain" used in its "all four ladies chain" 
sense.

To link this in to the issue of using technically incorrect 
terminology to get the idea of a move across - I'm completely 
behind Gene's (and others) defence of the "mini grand right and 
left" description. Given a choice between a caller being pedantically 
accurate and taking longer to teach the dance, or a caller using a 
set of words that get the idea across quickly even though they are 
being "incorrect" I know which I'd go for (and I'm sure there are 
people around who would make the other choice). Of course the 
ideal is to be pedantically accurate and quick, but sometimes that 
option isn't available.

Terminology varies so much between countries, and even between 
areas of a single country, that unless you're only going to dance / 
call in one area you need to be adaptable to the differences.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
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Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 06:46:30 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 10:34:21 -0800
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com>
Subject: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Message-ID: <3821D1AC.5814-AT-
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Bob Archer wrote:    <snip>
> To link this in to the issue of using technically incorrect
> terminology to get the idea of a move across - ...
>      Given a choice between a caller being pedantically
> accurate and taking longer to teach the dance, or a caller using a
> set of words that get the idea across quickly even though they are
> being "incorrect" I know which I'd go for 

	This raises an interesting issue.  IIRC, Gene said he had used an
improvised term because he thought it would convey the concept
efficiently to an identifiable group of new-to-English dancers who came
from a particular background of dancing.
	Does anyone have examples of technically correct instructions (TCI) in
specific dances that produce repeated instances of confusion of the same
sort somewhere on the dance floor without some further explanation of
what the dance move is or how to execute the TCI?
	I find the instruction at the end of the B1 in St. Margaret's Hill,
that the 1's should "turn two hands half-way to end proper" to be an
example.  This instruction comes after the 1's have led through the
bottom couple and cast up to middle place, and before they turn their
right corners by the left.
	On several occasions in the first dozen times I danced this dance, I
found that I had turned 3/4 at this point, had a sudden flash of
realization and confusion that being up-and-down the set was obviously
incorrect, and resolved it by continuing the turn all the way, leading
to the immediate realization that we were somehow in the wrong place.  I
have subsequently seen several relatively new dancers do precisely the
same.
	This seems to happen because the dance has such a sense of flow that
when you cast up to middle place the woman tends to flow higher in the
set than the man, so that instead of first taking hands at a point from
opposite sides of the set, they first take hands almost up-and-down the
set, woman above.  The instruction clicks in at that point, two-hand
turn halfway, and whoops!  We're up-and-down the set again!  Help!
	I originally thought this was just my difficulty getting oriented in
this disorienting dance, or in following the precise direction, or in
remembering the addendum "to get proper" (when it was given, although,
in such a disorienting dance, proper can be as hard to find as the
bottom of the set sometimes is).  But seeing others make the same
mistake made me wonder, and then I did it once with Brad Foster calling,
and he called it differently, something like 1's pass by your partner to
the other side, touching hands in the middle.  He explained that he was
not using the standard call here and said something about why which
seemed to be on the order of this works better in practice, though I
can't now recall it exactly.
	I felt that the little cartoon lightbulb had just clicked on in that
cloud over my head, inrecognition of a good idea.  I think Brad's call
also makes it a little easier for the 1's to flow outside the set in
taking left hands with their corners, since the direction of movement is
across the set does not imply a stop in line (to my ears), while
two-hand turn implies to me that you end the turn in the line, not
outside it.  This may be a very subtle distinction, or one that is
peculiarly my own, but I have certainly seen lots of people turn and
stop flowing, then start up again for the left-hand turn.
	Bob Archer noted that different people will make different choices in
how they opt to call a particular move, and I hope that any who disagree
with my comments on St. Margaret's Hill will do so in a separate thread,
because I intended it only as an example of what I wanted the major
point of this post to be, a solicitation of (other) situations in which
the technically correct call not uncommonly leads to the same sort of
confusion, and what you do to anticipate, avoid or fix the problem.
	Mike O'Connor


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:11:23 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:11:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: St. Margaret's Hill instrux
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Mike O'Connor wrote (under another subject line) --

  	I find the instruction at the end of the B1 in St. Margaret's Hill,
  that the 1's should "turn two hands half-way to end proper" to be an
  example.  This instruction comes after the 1's have led through the
  bottom couple and cast up to middle place, and before they turn their  
  right corners by the left.
	On several occasions in the first dozen times I danced this dance, I
  found that I had turned 3/4 at this point, had a sudden flash of
  realization and confusion that being up-and-down the set was obviously
  incorrect, and resolved it by continuing the turn all the way, leading
  to the immediate realization that we were somehow in the wrong place.  I
  have subsequently seen several relatively new dancers do precisely the
  same.
  	This seems to happen because the dance has such a sense of flow that  
  when you cast up to middle place the woman tends to flow higher in the
  set than the man, so that instead of first taking hands at a point from
  opposite sides of the set, they first take hands almost up-and-down the
  set, woman above.  The instruction clicks in at that point, two-hand
  turn halfway, and whoops!  We're up-and-down the set again!  Help!

There are a bunch of things in this dance that contribute to the error you 
describe.   I personally haven't had the 'flow pushes you to start the turn
already turned 1/4" problem, but here are some factors:

The dance starts with 1s casting off to the center and turning 3/4.  
A feeling of symmetry might propel you into turning 3/4 after the next time
you cast off to the center.  (And there is symmetry, but not with the start
of the dance, where that move isn't echoed; instead, it's with the _next_
cast off to the center, where everyone turns two hands 1/2 way.)

I have called dances where I said "end proper" and people hear "improper" 
and scuttle to get improper even in the right place.  I now try to say 
"finish proper" or "end on your own side" or something different.


Just generally, for me, this is a "muscle memory" dance.  It has major
flow once you've got it, but dancers can find it a slog to "get" it; I 
think Brad's approach works because it  makes the dancers feel the path, thus
developing the muscle memory needed; once they feel where to go, they can 
feel that they need to turn two hands 3/8s of the way and then drift into
the line giving left hand to the one on the right, or whatever.

-- Alan 

PS: Love the dance, of course.






	I originally thought this was just my difficulty getting oriented in








this disorienting dance, or in following the precise direction, or in
remembering the addendum "to get proper" (when it was given, although,
in such a disorienting dance, proper can be as hard to find as the
bottom of the set sometimes is).  But seeing others make the same
mistake made me wonder, and then I did it once with Brad Foster calling,
and he called it differently, something like 1's pass by your partner to
the other side, touching hands in the middle.  He explained that he was
not using the standard call here and said something about why which
seemed to be on the order of this works better in practice, though I
can't now recall it exactly.
	I felt that the little cartoon lightbulb had just clicked on in that
cloud over my head, inrecognition of a good idea.  I think Brad's call
also makes it a little easier for the 1's to flow outside the set in
taking left hands with their corners, since the direction of movement is
across the set does not imply a stop in line (to my ears), while
two-hand turn implies to me that you end the turn in the line, not
outside it.  This may be a very subtle distinction, or one that is
peculiarly my own, but I have certainly seen lots of people turn and
stop flowing, then start up again for the left-hand turn.
	Bob Archer noted that different people will make different choices in
how they opt to call a particular move, and I hope that any who disagree
with my comments on St. Margaret's Hill will do so in a separate thread,
because I intended it only as an example of what I wanted the major
point of this post to be, a solicitation of (other) situations in which
the technically correct call not uncommonly leads to the same sort of
confusion, and what you do to anticipate, avoid or fix the problem.
	Mike O'Connor




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:48:59 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 14:52:44 -0500
From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
together.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: news of death of CDSS members on the Egypt Air flight
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I first met Anne Soernsson and Gloria Berchielli in 1959 when I began 
teaching Morris and Sword for CDS (as it was) at the Metropolitan Duane 
Church in New York. They were not ritual dancers but were both 
interested in seeing our dancing when they came early for May Gadd's 
country class, and they often asked questions. They were enthusiastic 
and serious country dancers, although serious should not be understood 
as meaning severe--indeed, their good humor and obvious affection for 
the dance was always an element of joy to all of us. I got to know them 
better at Pinewoods and, especially, at the Hudson Guild weekends. It is 
a great sadness to think that we shall not run into them, unexpectedly, 
at a Playford Ball somewhere--as happened last year--but I am glad that, 
being such good friends, they were together en route to another 
adventure which had long attracted them, an exploration of the wonders 
of Egypt. I have fond memories of them both. John Bremer.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:05:56 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:07:24 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991104120724.007aa590-AT-
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Michael J O'Connor wrote,

>	Does anyone have examples of technically correct instructions (TCI) in
>specific dances that produce repeated instances of confusion of the same
>sort somewhere on the dance floor without some further explanation of
>what the dance move is or how to execute the TCI?

I was calling "All Saint's Day" at Pinewoods campers' night some years ago.
Everyone got the tricky "meanwhile" figure of the A part just fine, but
experienced dancers were casting off after the "up a double and fall back
into lines"  instead of crossing and then casting.   I didn't want them to
hear the word "cast"  at all in order to prevent them casting before they
crossed, but when I said "actives cross and go below", only some people got
it right, and many still cast off instead of crossing and casting. So after
I stopped calling the rest of the dance, I continued calling just that one
figure, changing the wording every time.  "Actives continue moving forward"
  "Or ones pass right shoulders" or "cross and loop below your twos" and
even "twos assist the actives across".  I didn't know why the problem was
happening, just that it was, and I tried a whole bunch of different
wordings to fix it. 

It was Bruce Hamilton who figured out afterwards WHY the problem occurred.
"Apley House" had been taught earlier in the evening.  Dancers had been
trained to follow the "up a double, fall back bending the line" in that
dance with a "cast off".  It was so ingrained, and more so for experienced
dancers who have danced Apley House umpteen million times, that it took
unusual wording to get the dancers' attention to do something different in
another dance with a different ending to the same figure.

Another dance for which I had to use unusual terminology was Gary Roodman's
"A Celt's New Dance"  In this square dance you do everything twice, ending
first with your original opposite, and then with your partner.  Normally
one would call the person next to you at the end of a figure your "partner"
even though you didn't start the dance with that person.  If I used the
term "partner" or even "current partner" when that person was your original
opposite, some people would charge across the set to find their ORIGINAL
partner. There was just as much confusion if I called that person "your
original opposite." Standard terminology wsn't working.

I decided to eliminate those terms completely the next time I called the
dance.  "The person next to you", and "the person across from you" took
more words, but caused less confusion, and shortened the total teaching
time considerably. In the first verse where you leave your original partner
and star once or walk halfway to take your opposite as your new partner, I
had dancers look across the set before starting and told them to find "that
person " for the right hand turn.      

I remember a caller glaring at a confused newcomer who didn't respond to
"cast off below your twos." and repeating 5 or 6 times "CAST OFF BELOW YOUR
TWOS!"  It was a foreign language. Louder and more often didn't help.  The
guy just stood there.  Newcomers don't KNOW the standard term, so repeating
it a lot won't help-- defining it using alternate wordings will generally
be more useful. 

I'm always on the lookout for wordings that make a tricky move go smoothly
with the fewest words and the greatest clarity.  Once I've taught a dance a
few times, I know what mistakes people are likely to make, and I find the
terms I like to prevent those mistakes,  but I'm also perfectly happy
stealing ideas from other callers so that I don't have to find the best
wordings by trial and error. So I hope a lot of people will respond to this
thread and share favorite wording-shortcuts that help teach.     

One of my favorite people to steal words from is Helene Cornelius because
she is fabulous at sparse, effective language that prevents mistakes, and
keeps everyone moving smoothly.  I love watching her call.  Its minimalism
at its height.  When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a
few of them to get things across.           
   
Victoria Bestock    
  


Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies.....
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Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 16:25:17 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 19:25:58 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130301b447d44f0f79-AT-
[140.186.55.43]>
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>
>One of my favorite people to steal words from is Helene Cornelius because
>she is fabulous at sparse, effective language that prevents mistakes, and
>keeps everyone moving smoothly.  I love watching her call.  Its minimalism
>at its height.  When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a
>few of them to get things across.

Yup.

And she uses things that improve on her when other people come up with them.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:24:23 PST
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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 11:28:24 -0500 (EST)
From: David.Millstone-AT-
VALLEY.NET (David Millstone)
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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--- Victoria wrote:
I love watching her [Helene Cornelius] call.  Its minimalism at its height. 
When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a few of them to get
things across.
--- end of quote ---

Many years ago, I did some jobs sharing the contra calling with Dudley Laufman,
who, as some of you know, spent years working in the schools, no PA system, and
even still can belt out the calls. One obvious survival strategy in those
circumstances is to use as few words as possible. I remember a dance where I was
saying "Everybody swing their partner" (8 syllables) while Dudley would just
bellow, "All swing." Did the trick just fine... 

David Millstone
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Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 09:40:22 PST
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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 17:14:09 +0000
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subscribe Robert Moir



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Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:01:48 PST
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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:02:16 -0500
From: dancerhiker <dancerhiker-AT-
gateway.net>
Subject: 2000 Hartford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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It was brought to my attention that people were asking about the date of this years Hartford Ball. It will be on Saturday May13th in W. Hartford CT. Musicians this year are Norb Spencer, Dave Langford, M-A Martin and Chris Rua. The flyers will go out in early January. Hope to see many of you there! Helen Davenport dancerhiker-AT-
yahoo.com 

--Boundary_(ID_EbBugJfOlWw0G6z5Mc7kOg)
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It was brought to my attention that people were 
asking about the date of this years Hartford Ball. It will be on Saturday 
May13th in W. Hartford CT. Musicians this year are Norb Spencer, Dave Langford, 
M-A Martin and Chris Rua. The flyers will go out in early January. Hope to see 
many of you there! Helen Davenport <A 
href="mailto:dancerhiker-AT-
yahoo.com ">dancerhiker-AT-
yahoo.com 
</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_EbBugJfOlWw0G6z5Mc7kOg)--
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Archive-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 06:38:08 PST
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Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 09:40:01 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce's Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
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Thanks Lyrl: Please give my regrets to all, particularly to Bruce, in my
not being able to be at the dances in the Boston area this weekend. I
really enjoy Bruce's teaching and am sorry not to be there.

I had a little scare the other day and spent the last two days in the
Hospital. I am fine and at home now but think it best not to venture too
far away just yet. Besides, I am rather tired-you don't get much rest in
a Hospital, despite spending lots of time in bed. Thursday morning I had
symptoms that were so close to those that I had 5 or 6 years ago when I
had a minor heart attack that I checked myself in "just in case".
Evidently the minor damage done in the earlier attack can cause a
repetition of symptoms on scattered occassions. In any case, I am fine,
with no evidence of an attack this time and the symptoms are gone. I
would have enjoyed the weekend but-oh well!

Regards and regrets
Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:29:38 PST
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 05:27:42 -0500
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: With GUSTO
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
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compuserve.com>
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If you're interested in training, the final GUSTO newsletter is now
available on http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/gnews5

Colin Hume
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:49:23 PST
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:47:53 -0800
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: With GUSTO
To: ECD-AT-
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[24.8.188.38]>
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>If you're interested in training, the final GUSTO newsletter is now
>available on http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/gnews5
>
>Colin Hume

Methinks you omitted the ".htm" at the end of the URL as an exercise for the reader.  Thanks for all your work and dedication.

--
"Don't go where the path leads. Rather go where there is no path and leave a trail."  -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Gary D. Shapiro   <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:39:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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[This mistakenly went to owner-ecd, which gets to me, rather than to 
ECD, so I have forwarded it to the list. -- Alan Winston]

From:	IN%"antony-AT-
iae.nl"  7-NOV-1999 09:39:00.83
To:	IN%"owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU"
CC:	
Subj:	Cast and Lead


Having read with interest the correspondence on Rights and Lefts, I am
prompted to raise another problem.

First couple cast & lead, 2nd couple lead and cast or whatever is such a
mouthful to call that I wonder if there is another solution. Square dancers
would say zoom zoom but our dancers hate to think they are using square
dance movements (even those who do square dancing think the two fields
should be kept separate). Dutch dancers call the movement a "versierrondje"
which may translate as a decorative circle but since it also means a
flirtatious circle, it gives the figure a new meaning. One needs to define
who casts and who leads, but I find it is mostly the higher couple who
casts.

Anybody got any opinions about this figure?

Antony Heywood
Dutch Folk Dance Society NVS




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 16:02:55 PST
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:03:29 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[140.186.55.169]>
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We call it "cast & lead and lead & cast" when we teach it, but when we're
just prompting, we assume that the couples can figure out where they begin
and just call it "cast & lead"


================================================================================
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Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 23:41:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911072340070.847-100000-AT-
allspice.cs.swarthmore.edu>
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On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:
> We call it "cast & lead and lead & cast" when we teach it, but when
> we're just prompting, we assume that the couples can figure out where
> they begin and just call it "cast & lead"

sometimes at swarthmore this figure has been called "loops".

--will

11/07/1637 - Anne Hutchinson banished from Mass bay colony as a heretic
11/07/1805 - Lewis & Clark 1st sights Pacific Ocean
11/07/1872 - Mary Celeste sails from NY to Genoa; later found abandoned
11/07/1929 - Museum of Modern Art opens (NYC)
11/07/1931 - Chinese People's Republic proclaimed by Mao Tse Tung
11/07/1932 - "Buck Rogers in the 25th century" premieres on CBS-radio

Happy birthday, Marie Curie (1867) and Albert Camus (1913)!
Bonus Points! 1st foreign language broadcast by US Prez: who & what year?

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:50:58 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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"cast & lead"
>
>sometimes at swarthmore this figure has been called "loops".

This reminds me that when I was teaching in the schools, the third graders
renamned the poussette figure in Knole Park  "shopping carts." 

Victoria Bestock   


Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies.....
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:14:56 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38268680.FB06F75B-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
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References: <01JI23GCJP7M8ZE0VP-AT-
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> Having read with interest the correspondence on Rights and Lefts, I am
> prompted to raise another problem.
>
> First couple cast & lead, 2nd couple lead and cast or whatever is such a
> mouthful to call that I wonder if there is another solution. Square dancers
> would say zoom zoom but our dancers hate to think they are using square
> dance movements (even those who do square dancing think the two fields
> should be kept separate). Dutch dancers call the movement a "versierrondje"
> which may translate as a decorative circle but since it also means a
> flirtatious circle, it gives the figure a new meaning. One needs to define
> who casts and who leads, but I find it is mostly the higher couple who
> casts.
>
> Anybody got any opinions about this figure?
>
> Antony Heywood
> Dutch Folk Dance Society NVS

Two years ago I heard Colin Hume call it "mini cast". I liked that term, short and
useful, and started to use it, too, when I call in English.


Philippe Callens

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:01:13 +0000
From: Douglas Goss <douglas-AT-
goss89.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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e7p5o4>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Emily L. Ferguson <elf-AT-
cape.com>
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Date: 05 November 1999 00:30
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction (WAS: Right and Left)


>
>One of my favorite people to steal words from is Helene Cornelius because
>she is fabulous at sparse, effective language that prevents mistakes, and
>keeps everyone moving smoothly.  I love watching her call.  Its minimalism
>at its height.  When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a
>few of them to get things across.

Yup.

And she uses things that improve on her when other people come up with them.

Gordon Potts (a London based but nationally known caller) is very good, too.
Apparantley he spends a long time working out how he can make dancers move
in the right way with the minimum, but very clear, instructions. The great
thing is that when he starts to call a normal ceilidh suddenly turns into an
excellent party like atmosphere ceilidh.


================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:09:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I like Will Quale's "loops."  It's short, succinct, and conveys the idea

We have sometimes used "fountains" to describe the feeling of the figure.  

I like to think of it as a half double figure-eight without the crosses.
(;-)

More seriously, I like to use the cast-&-lead, lead-&-cast figure as a way
of introducing double figure-eights.  I think of the c&l/l&c figure as an
essentially simple one even though it is a "meanwhile" figure.  Double
figure-eights require only the addition of crossing in the center and
repeating the whole figure to get back home.

Eric Arnold

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:27:56 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:29:18 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b01b44ca9c5d76b-AT-
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>This reminds me that when I was teaching in the schools, the third graders
>renamned the poussette figure in Knole Park  "shopping carts."

and this reminds me of hearing "first couple lead a cast" called "peel the
banana" - an excellent way of conveying that first couple start by turning
away from each other.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:51:33 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:51:37 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Message text written by Eric Arnold:
>...think of it as a half double figure-eight without the crosses.<

Priceless!  ROFL

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and amateur obfuscator
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. Beer" <jbintercultural-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Twas I that invented the term "loops" for Mulberry Garden.
Beginner dancers at Swarthmore respond quickly to it, but when
I've tried it with Germantown Country Dancers, the reaction has
been that it sounds too flippant and is not really an English
Country Dance term... So maybe if all you folks use it, it will
become "traditional" :-)

One of my favorite figure nicknames: Erna-Lynne's "sliding patio
doors" for Heidenroeslein or for Waterfall Waltz where you
chasse' past your neighbor (Though we thought she was saying
"Paddy O'Dor" the first time I heard it. I now say "sliding
doors" instead.)



=====

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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:08:46 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. Beer" <jbintercultural-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Twas I that invented the term "loops" for Mulberry Garden.
Beginner dancers at Swarthmore respond quickly to it, but when
I've tried it with Germantown Country Dancers, the reaction has
been that it sounds too flippant and is not really an English
Country Dance term... So maybe if all you folks use it, it will
become "traditional" :-)

One of my favorite figure nicknames: Erna-Lynne's "sliding patio
doors" for Heidenroeslein or for Waterfall Waltz where you
chasse' past your neighbor (Though we thought she was saying
"Paddy O'Dor" the first time I heard it. I now say "sliding
doors" instead.)



=====

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:32:21 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Folks --

I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.

For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
(Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
explicit description of casting and leading.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:34:36 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Emma wrote:

 and this reminds me of hearing "first couple lead a cast" called "peel the
 banana" - an excellent way of conveying that first couple start by turning
 away from each other.

I've used that.  Also, John Hertz's Regency dance booklet, The Tenor of
Terpsichore, describes the path followed in a cast off as semicardiodal -
that is, shaped like half a heart.  [But he's told me in person that the
phrasing there is a joke; he wouldn't expect a dancing-master to actually
say that aloud.]

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:45:37 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:53:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Shrinking Trends (was Re: Cast and Lead)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be> wrote:
> Two years ago I heard Colin Hume call it "mini cast". I liked that
> term, short and
> useful, and started to use it, too, when I call in English.
> 

Oh no.  First it was "mini grand rights and lefts", now it's "mini
cast."  What next?  Figures of four?  A quarter of a figure of eight?
 Hey for one 1 1/2 across the set?  Up a single and back?

We already drive minivans, wear microfibers and drink microbrews. 
Where will this insane quest for minitiarization end?

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:08:52 -0500 (EST)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.(eggbeaters)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 11/8/99 3:39:16 PM, winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:

<< I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.

For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
(Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
explicit description of casting and leading. >>

Caution: The term "eggbeaters" is an invention of Fried Herman's that refers 
explicitly to a figure in her dance, "Face the Music" (tune, "Fiddlin" 
David", by the late Eric Scott for his band Hold the Mustard.) Instructions 
for the dance can be found in her book, Potters' Porch. The figure is 
characterized by 1st woman/second man & 1st man/second woman turning opp. 
(inside) hands simultaneously. The result is a sort of"gearing"—for lack of a 
better term-quality. (Gene help me out here! )The term is so closely 
identified with that dance, that it might be confusing to dancers familiar 
with Fried's work to hear it in another context.
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:41:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Shrinking Trends (was Re: Cast and Lead)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Barbara Ruth wrote:

[snip]

> Oh no.  First it was "mini grand rights and lefts", now it's "mini
> cast."  What next? . . .  Up a single and back?

We've already got that, in Elverton Grove...

Eric Arnold


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:43:43 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.(eggbeaters)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JI3FIGLPVS8ZDV9R-AT-
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Judy Grunberg writes:

  Caution: The term "eggbeaters" is an invention of Fried Herman's that refers 
  explicitly to a figure in her dance, "Face the Music" (tune, "Fiddlin" 
  David", by the late Eric Scott for his band Hold the Mustard.) Instructions 
  for the dance can be found in her book, Potters' Porch. The figure is 
  characterized by 1st woman/second man & 1st man/second woman turning opp. 
  (inside) hands simultaneously. The result is a sort of"gearing"—for lack of a 
  better term-quality. (Gene help me out here! )The term is so closely 
  identified with that dance, that it might be confusing to dancers familiar 
  with Fried's work to hear it in another context.

(1) The fact that using the term doesn't work to convey the idea that I want
will be enough to keep me from using it.  I'm quite sure that the reason it
doesn't work in the Bay Area is _not_ that they're thinking of a specific
figure from "Face the Music", which is not one of Fried's dances that's
commonly done out here.  ("The Wood Duck" seems to be #1, "Peace Be With You"
and "Michael and All Angels" are about tied, I've called "Astoria Lass" a  few
times here, there was a vogue a couple of years back for "The First Lady"
(which I've been calling lately - anybody have orientation hints for first
ladies to whom half-figure-8s aren't yet second nature? - and Jody McGeen
called "Cat in the Window" in San Jose last week.  Other material gets called
every so often, but I'm not sure that very much else sticks in the repertoire.
Hmm; I gotta call Bryan's Boutade one of these days.)

(2) Hmm, is this is an improper dance, or are half the people progressed at 
that point?  Otherwise those pairs turning could be messy.  It sounds kind of
like "The Corporation", although that's both improper so the two men turn and
the two women turn.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:56:59 -0500
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
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Fried Herman has used "mini-cast" earlier in some dances.  Maybe she got it
elsewhere, too.

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Folks --
>
> I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
> Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
> lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.
>
> For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
> (Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
> you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
> the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
> work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
> explicit description of casting and leading.
>
> -- Alan
>
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
> ===============================================================================

--
Albert Blank


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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:07:10 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 17:07:05 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.(eggbeaters)
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
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In response to Alan's and Judy's questions about Fried's "eggbeater" turns
in Face the Music:

Everyone's in home, duple proper place as long lines come forward.  One's
cast and face in, two's cross up the center and face out.  1st wo. and 2nd
man turn by the R-hand; 1st man and 2nd wo. turn by the L-hand.

It's a reverse one-quarter-double-figure-of-eight with-crossing
handy-hand-turn triple-toe-loop-sachow.  At least that's how I call it.

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, and maximalist Caller

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:13:47 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:21:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Every so often (usually in the middle of a relevant dance) the
thought comes to me that the phrase "half of a double figure of
eight" actually means something intelligible to me.
It's scary.

--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> Message text written by Eric Arnold:
> >...think of it as a half double figure-eight without the crosses.<
> 
> Priceless!  ROFL
> 
> Gene Murrow
> EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and amateur obfuscator
> 


=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:19:17 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 17:19:42 -0500 (EST)
From: MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Eggbeaters
To: ECD-AT-
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"Eggbeaters" are a lovely variant of gates. In gates, both dancers side by 
side in line begin the figure facing in and holding inside hands, and the 
"post" moves backwards while the "gated pair" dance forward.  In 
"eggbeaters", one dancer in the line faces in (looking across the set to 
partner, who is also facing in) and holds the hand of his/her neighbor in 
line who faces out (and whose partner across the set is also facing out.)   
Both pairs move forward through the figure, which gives both the opportunity 
to connect with partners as they "gate" by.  Nice!

Carol Martinez
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:33:10 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:39:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: High Points of NOMAD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Gary Roodman's new dance "Father's Day."

Victor Skrownski's new dance, "Orly Triumphant," as called by Robin
Hayden.  Gorgeous, and a treat to see steps from Pinewoods English
Week Rennaisance dance class being incorporated into modern use.  Not
having the dance-writing, or even dance-calling gene in me, it's nice
seeing someone else able to make such good use of all that learning.
(BTW Victor I apologize I've probably mis-spelled your name, but
you're in good company.  I also lack the gene for spelling).

The "new" combination siding in a dance called by Sharon Green -
Sharon you're going to have to provide the name of the dance and the
composer.  Great dance and I loved the figure.  Of course since there
is nothing new under the sun, it really isn't a _new_ new figure.  I
recognized it at once as a Sherbourne Morris figure that I never
could manage to get right.  I like it much better as an ECD figure -
it's much smoother and a way sexy move.  If there were an academy
award for best adaptation of a figure from a different dance
tradition to ECD, that would win it.

Those who couldn't be at NOMAD this year will just have to pester
their local callers to learn and teach these at your local dance
venue.



=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:34:10 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 17:34:25 -0500 (EST)
From: MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The First Lady; half figure-8s
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 11/8/99 4:16:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:

<< there was a vogue a couple of years back for "The First Lady"
 (which I've been calling lately - anybody have orientation hints for first
 ladies to whom half-figure-8s aren't yet second nature?  >>

In dancing First Lady, I'm always reminded of the counter-clockwise 
orientation of the leads and casts in Geud Man of Ballangigh:  first *down* 
through the bottom of the minor set, then *across* through the women's side, 
then *up* through the top, then *across* through the men's side.  In each 
case, the 1st woman (without interrupting her motion) can, with a glance, 
"invite" the person around whom she's just looped in the previous 1/2 figure 
to join her in the next. 

Carol Martinez

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:28:27 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 18:45:19 -0500
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: High Points of NOMAD
To: ECD-AT-
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At 02:39 PM 11/8/99 -0800, Barbara Ruth wrote:

>The "new" combination siding in a dance called by Sharon Green -
>Sharon you're going to have to provide the name of the dance and the
>composer.  Great dance and I loved the figure.  Of course since there
>is nothing new under the sun, it really isn't a _new_ new figure.  I
>recognized it at once as a Sherbourne Morris figure that I never
>could manage to get right.  I like it much better as an ECD figure -
>it's much smoother and a way sexy move.  If there were an academy
>award for best adaptation of a figure from a different dance
>tradition to ECD, that would win it.

The dance is The Two Cousins, by Wil van den Berg [a woman I very much look
forward to meeting someday--she also has come up with a fine
reinterpretation of the opening of Trip to Paris].  Instructions for Two
Cousins are available in the booklet accompanying the Dutch Crossing CD.

The choreographer refers to her move as one-quarter siding.  David & I were
trying to come up with ways to describe it, and tentatively came up with
"offset siding."  The track is the same as in the first half of L-sh swirl
siding, but instead of swirling to pass each other, the dancers cut short
the move, curving in tightly so that they stand R-sh to R-sh, facing back
toward their original home spot.

I was first introduced to Two Cousins by Philippe Callens early last summer
in Mendocino, and loved it then.  When John Turner taught it in Binghamton,
he described the dancers'  track as intersecting commas--an interesting
conceit.

One word of caution to any dance leaders who attended my session and noted
down the dance: when I taught Two Cousins at NOMAD, I messed up and started
the B section having folks dance counter-clockwise rather than clockwise.
Mea culpa.  Resist the folk process: buy the book!

Hugs,
Sharon [fuzzy-headed but unbowed]
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 18:42:14 -0500
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 11:32 AM -0700 11/8/99, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
>Folks --
>
>I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
>Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
>lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.
>
>For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
>(Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
>you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
>the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
>work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
>explicit description of casting and leading.

Beware! Fried uses an "egg-beater" figure (a kind of double gate)
explicitly so-named (in "Face the Music").

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:49:01 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:57:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Two Threads Intersecting
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com> wrote:

> The choreographer refers to her move as one-quarter siding.  

Ha, just as I just said!  We're getting smaller and smaller figures
per unit of ECD.

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:36:54 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:37:15 -0500 (EST)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Eggbeaters
To: ECD-AT-
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Thank you Gene & Carol for expanding & clarifying Alan's & my eggbeater 
thread. Well, actually, it's clarified butter and fried eggs. 

Judy Grunberg
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:51:03 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
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At 3:57 PM -0800 11/8/99, Barbara Ruth wrote:
>Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com> wrote:
>
>  > The choreographer refers to her move as one-quarter siding.
>
>Ha, just as I just said!  We're getting smaller and smaller figures
>per unit of ECD.

Just think of it as minimilist dancing, Barbara, or as an oft-quoted 
folk dancer is heard to have said "dancing inside your shoes."

Mary Beth

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:45:08 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:35:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Smaller and smaller
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Barbara Ruth wrote:

> --- Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be> wrote:
> > Two years ago I heard Colin Hume call it "mini cast". I liked that
> > term, short and
> > useful, and started to use it, too, when I call in English.
> 
> Oh no.  First it was "mini grand rights and lefts", now it's "mini
> cast."  What next?  Figures of four?  A quarter of a figure of eight?
>  Hey for one 1 1/2 across the set?  Up a single and back?
> We already drive minivans, wear microfibers and drink microbrews. 
> Where will this insane quest for minitiarization end?

Good question; pardon me while I go ask my shrink.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 23:44:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
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On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Barbara Ruth wrote:

> Every so often (usually in the middle of a relevant dance) the
> thought comes to me that the phrase "half of a double figure of
> eight" actually means something intelligible to me.

Which, of course, is a figure-7 (or a reverse figure-7, depending on which
side of the set you're on).

> It's scary.

Yup.  }8-|

Eric (who has his own set of calculated figures) Arnold

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:04:40 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: authentic 1897 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Hello all,

A friend in the ECD community here sings in a choir which puts on a holiday
feast and concert. They usually perform one dance as part of the
celebration.  

This year they are doing a feast from 1897, and my friend would like help
finding a dance from that period.  They have limited space-- sort of an
aisle between tables, so a longways dance would be best. And the dance
should be fairly easy-- my friend is a dancer, but she will be teaching it
to the choir, who though musical, have no dance experience.    

Does someone out there know what would have been danced then?  I'd
appreciate help for my friend, who would like to be as authentic as
possible. Thanks


Victoria Bestock 



 


Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies.....
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:52:03 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: authentic 1897 dance
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Victoria Bestock wrote:

  This year they are doing a feast from 1897, and my friend would like help
  finding a dance from that period.  They have limited space-- sort of an
  aisle between tables, so a longways dance would be best. And the dance
  should be fairly easy-- my friend is a dancer, but she will be teaching it
  to the choir, who though musical, have no dance experience.    

  Does someone out there know what would have been danced then?  I'd
  appreciate help for my friend, who would like to be as authentic as
  possible. Thanks


What would have been danced then _where_?  In 1897, the fashionable ballroom
has cakewalks, one-steps and two-steps (as ragtime music seeps in),  hesitation
waltzes, maybe a Lancer's quadrille (walking, not stepping), maybe Roger de
Coverley/Virginia Reel (which seem to have been in play up through the 1920s
for Roger, the 40s in the American South for the Virginia Reel), schottisches,
waltzes, polkas, various sequence dances, and certain national dances depending
on what country you're in.  The focus is definitely on couple dances.  I'm not
sure if cotillons (that odd German mixture between party game and dance) are
still done much at this point. [Oh, wait (running to shelf); the Will Rossiter
"Original" "DANCE CALLS", containing the "Calls" of all Square Dances,
copyright 1898, has several different Lancer's variants, several other
quadrilles (my favorite title is "The Imperial Prairie Queen Quadrille"), and 
79 cotillon figures.  Oddly, the first piece of music in the collection (which
says 1898 in Roman numerals all over it) is Osceola, shown as being copyright
1904, so I guess I don't have a first edition.]

I think we can plausibly assume that 'traditional' contra dances are being done
in parts of New England - "Hull's Victory", "Sackett's Harbor" obviously having
been around since the War of 1812, although I'd hate to have to guess what
styling is done in 1897, that 'traditional' squares are happening in the
Midwest, that Big Circle dances are happening in Appalachia, and that the
dances that Sharp and his followers would soon start collecting were being 
done already in the English villages.  

That ought to be anything in  Country Dance Book One (going to shelf - ah,
published 1909), like "Brighton Camp", "Galopede" (in CDM), the Ribbon Dance
(which, from the description, looks pretty showy), The Butterfly, We Won't Go
Home Till Morning (which seems to be misidentified as a whole set dance, rather
than a duple minor), Speed the Plough (a problem in a narrow space, but an easy
dance), etc.
 
My recommendations would be  "Bonnets So Blue" if they have ten or more dancers,
since it's an easy teach, vertically oriented (if you do a tight swing and
change), and lends itself to whooping and hollering without requiring enormous
precision - or if they can't sort out duple minor progression, Galopede - or
Bonny Breast Knot as a three couple set, or Dorset Four Hand Reel if they can
find four people who can step.  You could also go through the Community Dances
Manuals and look at any English dance that has a  town or village or county in
the name (Stoke Golding Country Dance, Durham Reel, etc.) and be fairly safe in
assuming that it was around in 1897.  Oh, Durham Reel might be good for
performance, if they can do it in the available space, since you could probably
do it once through without boring the audience too much, provided you actually
do stepping.  Whole set dance, no progression.  If you do Roger de Coverley or
Drops of Brandy, etc, it's the same thing over and over, and you don't really
get a sense of resolution theatrically.

Best of luck to your friend, and please let it know how it works out!

-- Alan (who's already working on the program for a costume-only c.1900 ball
in Eureka next November.)



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 05:36:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:36:51 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38282373.E2C4C3D4-AT-
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Bruce didn't ask for (perhaps because he didn't want) ideas on how
you cope with your partner's mistakes.  He asked for what would have
helped you recover (or avoid) your mistake,  but if I am to give you
that help I need to be aware of your mistake.

It seems to me that there are four cases:-
   totally asleep
   panic-stricken brain gone blank
   a preparatory move for an incorrect move
   a definite wrong move

In the first two cases I might be able to wake you up and signal a
correct move.  If you signal an incorrect move then I can try to signal
a correct one.  If you confidently do something wrong then I have to go
through the sequence "That's wrong;  maybe that's right and I'm
confused; no, I'm right" before I can do anything to help you recover.

The mistake that brought this up was in a dance which went ones cast and
do something, twos cast and do something, dance, dance, dance, and all
two hand turn partner and fall back to place.  The mistake was as a two
my partner started a new turn of the dance with a confident cast, to
which (after about two steps) I managed to give a despairing cry of 
"come back" (though I suspect it wasn't loud enough for her to hear).

We might have avoided the mistake if we had done the final two hand turn
and held on ready for the lead up, but we were using the fall back to
place to soak up some spare music so I'm not sure that was practicable.
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 08:55:11 -0500
From: "Albert A. Blank" <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The First Lady; half figure-8s
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MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com wrote (in part):

> In a message dated 11/8/99 4:16:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
> << there was a vogue a couple of years back for "The First Lady"
>  (which I've been calling lately - anybody have orientation hints for first
>  ladies to whom half-figure-8s aren't yet second nature?  >>

Alan and Carol,
    You could try the American square dance call, "Cross trails through ... "

--
Albert Blank


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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:16:59 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
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This whole discussion about "mistakes" has me kind of uneasy.  It's not
that there isn't a " correct" way to do something, I think we all agree
about that.  But the whole idea that we need to stress out so about memory
lapses, temporary confusions, and short-term misunderstandings is what I'm
so uncomfortable with.  Sure everyone needs to find the most graceful and
generous way to fish someone out of their own little inattentions and
memory lapses, but making a whole big deal out of it seems really out of
proportion to the importance of the thing.

Good dancers get flakey, giggle, and bring their attention back to the
matter at hand.  Helping them out in an unobtrusive way is the graceful and
generous thing to do.  Regarding it as a "BIG DEAL YOU MADE A MISTAKE!!!!!"
is where I'm having the problem.

Everybody makes mistakes - the other night the caller at our dance made
some mistakes.  Ordinary mistakes, like missing some little detail in the
calling of the figure, or calling something before it was supposed to
happen - 4 bars before.

But, more important to me, that night the caller at our dance called a
figure and left out, quite deliberately, the one element that makes that
figure not only totally different from that same thing in any other places
in the repertoire, but a major opportunity for humor and intimacy between
the dancers.

To me, _that's_ a mistake.  Whether the moment exists in the original
print, or was an addition by Cecil, is beside the point in that dance to
me.  The moment is crucial to the attractiveness of the dance, and makes a
special level of challenge for the less experienced dancer.  Even for the
most experienced dancer.  In fact leaving it out makes the dance just
another level 4 dance - not really hard, not easy, but just nothing much
special.  Without the tune, the dance would be a level 3 dance.  Just
another intermediate dance.

So I'm curious about how people feel about that sort of mistake.  Calling a
dance and interjecting something into it that's not part of it - like one
time I watched someone call Levi Jackson and actually tell the ones to
balance while they were standing at the top waiting to move down the set,
and then again while they were waiting to move to the bottom.    Like the
other night I called Bonny Cuckoo and told the men to pass the ladies
across.

Not in the instructions as printed.

Are these the kind of "mistakes" we should be concerning ourselves with?

What's really a mistake here?


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 06:38:09 PST
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:38:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The First Lady; half figure-8s
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Albert A. Blank wrote:

> 
> 
> MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com wrote (in part):
> 
> > In a message dated 11/8/99 4:16:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:
> >
> > << there was a vogue a couple of years back for "The First Lady"
> >  (which I've been calling lately - anybody have orientation hints for first
> >  ladies to whom half-figure-8s aren't yet second nature?  >>
> 
> Alan and Carol,
>     You could try the American square dance call, "Cross trails through ... "

Having done this dance a number of times in the East where it is perhaps
better known, it is not usually the first lady's uncertainty about where
to go that I have found most frustrating.  I have experienced a tendency
for the first lady to delay the start of each of her four half-figure 8's
around the set with a gesture to the man who shares that figure with her,
on the basis that it is a different man each time around, and if they
aren't paying close attention, they often don't realize when it is their
turn to go until the figure is half over and everyone else is telling them
to go.  

But the cure is worse than the problem, because there is just barely
enough music to get around in time if you get started on time, and if the
first lady delays her passage even an ipswitch, then the man, having to
wait for the lady to pass, has no chance at all of getting back to place
with the musical phrase.  This becomes extremely frustrating when, as a
man, one _is_ ready to dance his part, and it is heightened by the strong
phrasing in the music which goes with this figure.

So, callers -- whatever you _do_ come up with for this figure, _PLEASE_
don't suggest to the first lady that she invite the next man to join her
each time around, but encourage her to go flying into each new figure at
full speed, and let the men take responsibility for themselves.  Then, if
they don't get there on time, it's their own fault; when they do, it's a
great figure with wonderful, lively flow.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor


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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 14:54:14 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
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Emily L. Ferguson wrote:
> 
> This whole discussion about "mistakes" has me kind of uneasy.  It's not
> that there isn't a " correct" way to do something, I think we all agree
> about that.  But the whole idea that we need to stress out so about memory
> lapses, temporary confusions, and short-term misunderstandings is what I'm
> so uncomfortable with. 

Well, I can't speak for Bruce, but I the example I was quoting was one
where my partner and I had a little laugh and agreed it was just what
Bruce was looking for.  Having had our giggle we knew we had made a
mistake and wondered how we could have avoided it.  I don't think we
felt stressed or anything;  I suspect Bruce is looking for ways of teaching
dances and style that will minimise mistakes ("hold your partner's hand
at every opportunity so you can signal mistakes before making them" sort
of thing).

I'm sure we don't want to get over excited about mistakes that are bound
to happen, but a discusion of mistakes in the abstract is a bit difficult
so I don't think a few real examples hurt much.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 07:00:25 PST
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:03:32 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Vintage Dancing in Boston this weekend
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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What's this got to do with ECD?  Read on...

The weekend of November 13th & 14th will be a good one for the
discriminating vintage dancer to spend in Boston.  Here's a quick
overview; if you want more information about any of these events
(such as exact location, how to get reservations, cost, directions,
etc.) call me or send me eail and I will give you the more detailed
event announcements.

As a pre-weekend warmup, if you can get to Boston in time, there will
be a Renaissance Dance hosted by Renaissonics, with teaching and
leading by Charles Garth.  This dance can be expected to include some
early ECD, and some earlier European dances that may or may not have
influenced its development.

Friday, 7:30, Cambridge, Renaissance Dance, Renaissonics, all dances
taught, refreshments.

Taking things sequentially, there will next be an intermediate
workshop with Patri Pugliese focussing on mid-nineteenth century
dances.  Reservations are required.  This will mostly focus on steps,
mostly for couple dances of the period, but may include some material
on styling for mid-century contras and quadrilles.  This workshop
will only take place if there are enough reservations; contact Paul
at  mesketet-AT-
tiac.net if interested.  Only one more needed!

Saturday 3-5pm, Newton, vintage dance workshop, recorded music, some
experience expected.

The big event, Saturday evening, 7:30-11pm, also in Newton, will be a
Civil War Era Regimental Ball.  Civil War era dress or formal dress
is encouraged. Music by Spare Parts; Dr. Patri J. Pugliese, Prompter.
Refreshments (non-alcholic) will be served. Reservations recomended,
but not required, as is period dress (not required).  Sponsored by
The Commonwealth Vintage Dancers and the 22nd Mass Volunteer
Infantry.  Newton.  The evening will include waltzes, polkas,
waltzes, contras, waltzes, quadrilles, waltzes, Galops and waltz
variations such as the Redowa and Mazurka.  Paul at
mesketet-AT-
tiac.net is also taking reservations for this event.

Sunday afternoon, November 14th, 2-5pm, still in Newton, Eclectic
Enterprises (that's me) invites you to attend an Afternoon Tea Dance.
The theme will be 1890s, and Patri Pugliese and Mike Bergman will be
teaching and leading the dancing (to recorded music). Refreshments
will be served.  The mix of dances will be much like the previous
night, only with more Schottische, less mazurka, and an attempt to
introduce the styling of the 1890s.

Finally, for those of you who just never get enough dancing, Sunday
night there will be a modern "stylish" Contra Dance, at 7:15 pm, in
Concord, with Sue Rosen and the Last Gaspe Band.  This dance is in
celebration of Larry Jennings' 70th birthday.  I believe that there
might well be a cake.  I don't know what is meant by "stylish" in
this context, but am personally taking it as a cue to wear something
a little dressier than I do to the average contra dance.  I imagine
that the dance styling will be that of the late 90s.  1990s, that is.

-- Mike Bergman
eclectic-AT-
mit.edu, (617) 964-7684
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:13:05 -0500 (EST)
From: morganj-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: authentic 1897
To: ECD-AT-
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Perhaps Community Dance manual items would be appropriate for an
inexperienced crowd.  The "Royal Albert"  might have still been
extent in 1897, though the title suggests from the 1850's.  

Jim Morgan
morganj-AT-
iupui.edu

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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 11:00:36 -0500
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[140.186.55.65]>

>Emily L. Ferguson wrote:
>> 
>> This whole discussion about "mistakes" has me kind of uneasy.  It's not
>> that there isn't a " correct" way to do something, I think we all agree
>> about that.  But the whole idea that we need to stress out so about memory
>> lapses, temporary confusions, and short-term misunderstandings is what I'm
>> so uncomfortable with. 

I don't believe that Bruce was advocating that we need to stress out about
memory lapses.  My reading of his posting was that he wanted us to examine
how we felt at times we needed help so that we could identify which
particular actions would both have helped us and have left us feeling good
about having received help.

My guess is that Bruce is working toward something along the lines of "Do
unto others as you would be done by..."  He's asking us to figure out how
we would like others to help us, hoping we'll learn from that how to do a
better job of helping others when it's our turn.

Bruce, how's that for exegesis?

Hugs,
Sharon (the minister's wife)
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From: Dan Pearl <pearl-AT-
sw.stratus.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
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I wrote a Contra Connection column a few years ago on how to deal with
a walk-through that doesn't go well.  I can try to remember some key points,
and others.

Dealing with Mistakes

Make an assessment about the kind of "mistake" that was made.  The most
severe are the mistakes that make the dance just not work; you've got to
correct the problem, which involves people UNlearning the incorrect bit
and RElearning the correction.  

Less severe are the kinds of errors that would not affect the dance
significantly. Use your judgement about whether you want to address
these.  (Example: you specified a circular hey without hands, but it really
is WITH hands.)

In the middle are the kinds of errors that would "work" but it is not the
way the dance goes.  For English dances, I would tend to repair the problem;
for contras, I might just chalk it up as a variant and not sweat it.

Regardless of the type of error, you need to treat the situation with
lightness. That is, you don't need to roll around in broken glass or blame
anyone. Just fix it.  You can analyze what went wrong later, and adjust
your teaching in the future.

You lose a bit of credibility with each mistake you make, so it is best
to avoid them in the first place. Prepare, prepare, prepare.

================================================================================
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From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
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I recently made some mistakes which I observed in the manner which I
understood Bruce meant in his invitation to discuss them.  These were at a
contra dance, but I believe the observation is just as relevant to a
discussion of mistakes in ECD.

In one dance, in which I and my partner were to cross and go down ond
place, I started instead with a cast.  I don't remember just what my
partner did -- I think she followed me, and we straightened ourselves out
in the new position for the next figure, and I didn't think much more
about it.  

The next time, I actually did it again, but this time my partner crossed
boldly and had good eye contact with me, and my cast turned into a turn
single followed by a cross, a bit late but not so much so as to seriously
destroy the flow of the dance for her or the other couple, I think.

The third time I crossed the set rather like hole-in-the-wall style and we
shared a little grin...

In the second one, a longways improper, symmetrical contra, the women had
progressed but the men hadn't just before the end, and the call was "Men
allemand right once-and-a-half to meet the next woman" or something of
that sort.  I used my other right...  the first man I came to accepted it,
and while I found the transition from that turn to the next figure, a
balance & swing with the next in line, to be rather awkward because I had
used my left for the turn and would normally also use my left for the
balance.  The second time around, the other man would have none of my
left, and held out for a right.  It took a moment to realize he was right
and I was wrong, and a moment of changing momentum without the benefit of
a hand hold, so that was an awkward moment, but it was clear with the much
smoother transition to the next figure that he was right in insisting on
it, and I was glad he had.

Sometimes we accept the other hand when we know that it is the "wrong" one
simply to avoid the little moment of confusion and sometimes contention
that destroys the flow of the dance even more than doing the wrong figure
does.  But in this case, I was glad that it happened near the beginning of
the dance, because it improved the flow to the point that kinesthetic
memory easily took over, and it became the natural thing to do.

Mistakes of this sort are not that infrequent for me; they're mistakes of
instinct as much as anything, in that the move is intrinsically just as
reasonable at that point in the dance, and I'm partially on autopilot;  I
usually do actually know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm dancing without
thinking, which is perhaps the most pleasurable way to dance, and it's
good as long as I still do the right thing.  When I do the wrong thing,
then I don't have to think about what the right thing is, because I am
suddenly aware that I did the wrong thing and I know what I should have
done.  Then what I think about is how to get on with it, and if I'm really
out of place, I'll often just step back a bit out of the way of the others
who are doing it right until I can rejoin them.  Sometimes, however, they
seem more bothered by my doing that than by doing the figures late or
scurrying through them to my proper place, but I figure at that point,
it's their problem.  Folks who know me generally know that I can be
trusted to get back in sooner or later... 

In recent postings, some have felt that this discussion is making a big
deal out of mistakes.  That has not been the feeling that I got from the
original question or the postings so far which have addressed Bruce's
invitation for responses.  Many of us are actively teaching ECD and face
the perennial question of how to work towards improved dancing without an
inhibiting emphasis on mistakes, and to me it makes good sense to think
about how we like to have our mistakes corrected.  I think most of those
offering their mistakes are not stress out by them, and have the leisure
and perspective in the dance to notice, when they are primed to the task,
their feelings and reactions to different kinds of help.

I recall another time, at a dance event with quite experienced dancers,
being whisked into a set which was desparately looking for another dancer
to complete the set for Step Stately.  I had just come from breakfast, a
bit on the late side, and the walkthrough had already been done; I hardly
had time to get my dance shoes on, let alone tied, before I was in it.

Now I basically new Step Stately pretty well, having done it a good number
of times at home, partly for a performance group, but it had been several
years since I had done it, and it was not fresh in my mind.  When I made
some mistakes, I tried to do my usual thing of stepping aside until I
figured out where to get back in, and and to refresh my memory of how the
dance went, which would not have been too hard from teh sidelines.  But
that wouldn't do for at least one other dancer in the set, who grabbed me
and yanked me around in his desire that everyone should be in place.  That
was not conducive to remembering the dance, and was sufficiently
unpleasant that the memory of it remains strong, and I still remember who
it was that yanked me around.  I don't remember who the others in the set
were.  We did the dance a second time through, and while it went better,
there was still some yanking around; I believe that if I had been allowed
to watch it when I tried to step out for a moment, I would have been able
to do it without great difficulty.

In new dancers, being yanked around, I suspect, similarly interferes with
the development of kinesthetic memory, and it has been known to drive
folks away before they have had enough chance to feel the flow of the
figures.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor   

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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:59:08 -0500 (EST)
From: MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The First Lady; half figure-8s
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 11/9/99 9:40:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, eba-AT-
umich.edu 
writes:

<<  I have experienced a tendency
 for the first lady to delay the start of each of her four half-figure 8's
 around the set with a gesture to the man who shares that figure with her,
 on the basis that it is a different man each time around, and if they
 aren't paying close attention, they often don't realize when it is their
 turn to go until the figure is half over and everyone else is telling them
 to go.  
 
 But the cure is worse than the problem, because there is just barely
 enough music to get around in time if you get started on time, and if the
 first lady delays her passage even an ipswitch, then the man, having to
 wait for the lady to pass, has no chance at all of getting back to place
 with the musical phrase.  >>

I agree completely, and it was precisely for this reason that when I 
suggested the first woman invite her next figure-8 partner with a glance in 
his/her direction, I added the words, "without interrupting her movement".    
While the glance does serve to remind the dancer (not always a man, 
particularly in this dance) who might possibly not be aware of being next to 
dance the half-figure-8, I see it more as a sociable opportunity to establish 
a link with this person with whom I'll be "flying through" this next portion 
of the figure.  My "invitation" bears no implication that this person *needs* 
to be reminded; in my mind, the feeling is "next it's *you* I want to dance 
with!".    It also helps my own sense of orientation to be aware, "I've just 
looped around you; that makes you my next figure-8 partner (and this was in 
response to Alan's question, which referred to orientation hints for the 1st 
woman).

Eric's point is well taken, though.  In any figure of 8, it is important for 
the first person through to be aware that they are responsible to move 
quickly, particularly at the start of the figure, so that the other can 
complete the figure in time, and it may be that we need to emphasize that in 
our teaching.  Fried Herman has, in fact, often made a point of this. 

Carol Martinez
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Subject: Re: The First Lady; half figure-8s
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On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com wrote:

[snip]

> While the glance does serve to remind the dancer (not always a man, 
> particularly in this dance) 

Thank you, Carol, for pointing this out; I should have said "person"
rather than "man" since it is the 2nd woman on one of the four times
around, and she has exactly the same problem.

Eric

================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 14:23:28 -0500 (EST)
From: MartinezPC-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
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In a message dated 11/9/99 10:56:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, mls-AT-
panix.com 
writes:

<< I don't believe that Bruce was advocating that we need to stress out about
 memory lapses.  My reading of his posting was that he wanted us to examine
 how we felt at times we needed help so that we could identify which
 particular actions would both have helped us and have left us feeling good
 about having received help.
  >>

Yes, my reading of Bruce's request was that he wanted us to focus on our 
*own* mistakes, not those of our partners, and how, and when, we would have 
liked to be helped.  Indeed, there might be times - and not infrequent - when 
we would have preferred not to be helped at all, since we would on our own 
have understood and fixed the problem and felt better about ourselves in the 
process.  

I was kept from dancing for a couple of weeks by a bad cold, and thus 
deprived of the happy chance to skip off in the wrong direction.  When I 
returned to the dance floor at the totally wonderful NOMAD festival this 
weekend, I was too overjoyed to even notice my mistakes, much less analyze 
them.  There'll be other opportunities...

Carol Martinez
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:23:10 PST
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:23:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com wrote:
> When I 
> returned to the dance floor at the totally wonderful NOMAD festival
> this 
> weekend, I was too overjoyed to even notice my mistakes, much less
> analyze 
> them. 
> 
> Carol Martinez
 

Oh, I was watching Carol.  You just didn't make any.

Thanks for the kind words on NOMAD.

And also thanks to all of the callers:  Graham Christian, Martha
Davey, Beverly Francis, Sharon Green, Fried Herman, the famous Hayden
twins Robin and Andreas, Marge Potter, Gary Roodman, Peggy Vermilya
who contributed their time, and all the dancers who came out to make
the festival such a great time from my completely individual, selfish
point of view - or as Andreas put it the "NOMAD English Dance 'til
You Drop" Festival.


=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:03:34 -0500 (EST)
From: MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: NOMAD (was Dealing with mistakes)
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In a message dated 11/9/99 4:28:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com writes:

<< Thanks for the kind words on NOMAD.
 
 And also thanks to all of the callers:  Graham Christian, Martha
 Davey, Beverly Francis, Sharon Green, Fried Herman, the famous Hayden
 twins Robin and Andreas, Marge Potter, Gary Roodman, Peggy Vermilya
 who contributed their time, and all the dancers who came out to make
 the festival such a great time from my completely individual, selfish
 point of view - or as Andreas put it the "NOMAD English Dance 'til
 You Drop" Festival.
 
  >>

The ECD portion of NOMAD was truly outstanding both in quantity and quality.  
(I'm sure the rest was, too, but I couldn't drag myself away to experience 
much of it....)  There was fine teaching and programming by the callers, and 
wonderful music, too.  Congratulations and thanks to all, including the 
organizers - and that means to *you*, Barbara!

Carol
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:40:33 -0500
From: gaff-AT-
neu.edu (Terence Gaffney)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bruce Hamilton weekend
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Since we're talking about our weekends, I'd like to thank Bruce Hamilton
for the dance weekend he led in Boston.

Two dances that were new to me that I really enjoyed were "Impropriety" and
"The Short and the Tall". "Impropriety"is a fast moving longways duple
minor in which the active couples start on a different side of the set at
the beginning of each round, with an interesting double gate figure in it.
"The Short and the Tall" is a four couple set dance with 2's and 4's
improper. It features a "double snake" figure. (Right hands across on the
ends, then  middlemen pass left shoulders, going around the ends of the
set, everybody in their star following them (this is the first "snake"),
then left hand star at the ends middlemen pass right shoulders, everybody
in their star following them home)  I hope Bruce can remind us who wrote
these beautiful dances.

We're welcoming suggestions for a workshop for next year from anybody who
thinks they might come.
You can send your suggestions to me at Gaff-AT-
neu.edu.

Best,
 Terry


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:17:17 PST
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:17:40 -0800
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911100017.AA038763060-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
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Emily L. Ferguson wrote:
> This whole discussion about "mistakes" has me kind of uneasy.  It's not
> that there isn't a " correct" way to do something, I think we all agree
> about that.  But the whole idea that we need to stress out so about memory
> lapses, temporary confusions, and short-term misunderstandings is what I'm
> so uncomfortable with. 

I'm with Emily: I hope we don't stress out on mistakes.  The reason I
brought up the issue is that I teach dancers to treat mistakes
lightly.  I presume that with better information, we can help better.
That was my (only) reason for asking for first-hand reports.

Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com> wrote:
>... I suspect Bruce is looking for ways of teaching dances and style
>that will minimise mistakes...

Actually, no.  I think that mistakes are a normal part of country
dancing in a social context.  I'm not trying to minimize them.
Rather, I'm looking for ways to help the maker and the rest of the set
accept them gracefully and deal with them lightly.  (Of course I try
not to *cause* mistakes, and I help dancers avoid traps.  But even
when a caller does that, slips still occur.  It's in that setting that
I'm talking here).

I've danced in groups that never make a mistake, and the dancing
doesn't feel as social as I like.  I can focus my attention tightly
enough that I don't make mistakes, but that focus takes away from my
enjoyment of what's going on around me.  I can teach a dance in such a
way that no one will make a mistake, but that takes longer than anyone
likes, and the dance then feels flat.  I can pick such easy dances
that no one will make a mistake, but the dancers would miss some
challenge.

I view a steady trickle of minor slips as evidence that we have the
work/play balance right.  Then, since they're gonna happen, we learn
to treat them that way.  That's my aim.

  -Bruce

	    >>> Note new email address <<<
Bruce Hamilton			Agilent Laboratories  MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
agilent.com
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bruce Hamilton weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JI52GO2TYA8ZDV9R-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Terry Gaffney wrote:

  Two dances that were new to me that I really enjoyed were "Impropriety" and
  "The Short and the Tall". "Impropriety"is a fast moving longways duple
  minor in which the active couples start on a different side of the set at
  the beginning of each round, with an interesting double gate figure in it.
  "The Short and the Tall" is a four couple set dance with 2's and 4's
  improper. It features a "double snake" figure. (Right hands across on the
  ends, then  middlemen pass left shoulders, going around the ends of the
  set, everybody in their star following them (this is the first "snake"),
  then left hand star at the ends middlemen pass right shoulders, everybody
  in their star following them home)  I hope Bruce can remind us who wrote
  these beautiful dances.

I'm not Rappaport^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Bruce, but a search of the ECD list
archive and my personal memory says that "Improprietary" is a very cool
dance by Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly of "the Heather and the Rose" 
country dancers; they're in Ashland,  Oregon, and that Sharon Green wrote,
on September 5 of last year, that Ron Coxall (an English choreographer)
wrote "The Short and The Tall."

I did that dance at the Seattle Ball, and more recently have encountered 
a double contra - Sue Rosen called it at the Santa Cruz contra - with a 
similar snake figure in it.  Interesting.

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:17:26 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:18:18 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce Hamilton weekend
To: ECD-AT-
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uia.ua.ac.be>
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References: <v02130511b44e4f3d6bd4-AT-
[155.33.181.244]>



Terence Gaffney wrote:

> Since we're talking about our weekends, I'd like to thank Bruce Hamilton
> for the dance weekend he led in Boston.
>
> Two dances that were new to me that I really enjoyed were "Impropriety" and
> "The Short and the Tall".

The Short and the Tall was published in Ron Coxall's collection "Jogs". Fine
dance!

Philippe Callens

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:19:29 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:19:56 -0500 (EST)
From: RLHAYDEN-AT-
amherst.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: She who casts last casts best
To: ECD-AT-
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Friends, I am that partner Hugh so gallantly declined to name who casted 
off when she should not have!  As Sharon will attest, I left for NOMAD
determined to make errors (for the sake of research!), but this was the
very
last dance I danced at NOMAD, and if Hugh hadn't reminded me at the time
I would have forgotten to notice any of my responses.  Thanks, Hugh:
for the dance, for the laugh, for the support, and for attempting to shield
me from the scrutiny of my peers.

Andreas Hayden (not my husband, not my brother, but my husband's
brother, folks) was calling the session.  He had made the maverick
decision to teach Knives & Forks with the parts even:

	1s cast down, 2s moving up; 1s dance back to back
	2s cast down, 1s moving up; 2s dance back to back.

I mention this not to make any excuses for my making an error of Type 4
in HughUs catalog ("a definite wrong move") but to note that the error I
made was a complete surprise to both of us, and not, I felt in examining
it immediately afterward, something Hugh could have anticipated.

He guessed exactly right, though:  I would have wanted him to hold
my right hand (in our final two-hand turn) just a moment into the start
of the next round, as if to say, "We're not in this;" which in fact he did,
very subtly, for the next couple of rounds (having discovered he had
a rogue partner on his hands!).  I also said to him, as I recall, "It would
have been alright with me if you had called "YO!" very loudly as I was
casting off."  But as he points out, he was so startled that I was long 
gone by the time he was able to call after me.

After I had made that initial error I was off in ECD-list Land, composing
this analysis in my head, and so was in danger of making many errors
of Type 1 (totally asleep); my partner very successfully used eye contact,
hand-leading, and sense of humor to keep me from making any more
serious mistakes.


Robin Hayden
maker of many fine mistakes, and proud of it
================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:27:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Bruce Hamilton wrote:

[SNIP]

 . . .  I think that mistakes are a normal part of country
> dancing in a social context.  I'm not trying to minimize them.
> Rather, I'm looking for ways to help the maker and the rest of the set
> accept them gracefully and deal with them lightly.  (Of course I try
> not to *cause* mistakes, and I help dancers avoid traps.  But even
> when a caller does that, slips still occur.  It's in that setting that
> I'm talking here).
> 
> I've danced in groups that never make a mistake, and the dancing
> doesn't feel as social as I like.  I can focus my attention tightly
> enough that I don't make mistakes, but that focus takes away from my
> enjoyment of what's going on around me.  I can teach a dance in such a
> way that no one will make a mistake, but that takes longer than anyone
> likes, and the dance then feels flat.  I can pick such easy dances
> that no one will make a mistake, but the dancers would miss some
> challenge.
> 
> I view a steady trickle of minor slips as evidence that we have the
> work/play balance right.  Then, since they're gonna happen, we learn
> to treat them that way.  That's my aim.

Bruce, thanks for a very clear and helpful statement.  

I expect that, no matter how hard I try to make light of mistakes and
encourage the dancers to do likewise, it is still an individual's
threshold for embarrassment combined with the number or frequency of
perceived mistakes that he or she makes that will determine the response.

Two extremes have come up this fall in my ECD workshop series.  The first
was a man who came for the first time, with a partner who was also here
for the first time.  He seemed to be getting along quite reasonably for a
newcomer; I understood that he had started contradancing.  His partner did
similarly well; they made different mistakes, but nothing particularly
difficult to deal with, and I didn't notice any particular problems that
the other dancers were having with either of them.  I thought that they
were good prospects for returning.  But they left soon after the break,
and before he left, he confided to me that he found the dancers "vicious"
and implied that he hadn't had fun at all.  I promised that I would do
what I could about that, but I was so taken by surprise that I didn't
apologize to him for his bad experience or ask him for details before he
was gone.  I haven't seen either of them since.  I talked about it with
some of the dancers afterwards and some said his partner had said she was
having fun.  They were, I think, even more surprised than I was.  It isn't
as if we had never thought about situations like this -- I urge the
dancers to try to offer their support and help to new dancers gently and
with sensitivity.  I don't know whether the man's response was the
result of his general experience or a reaction to a specific person or
event. 

The second example concerns a couple, I believe who are married, who came
with friends who are folks whom I know as contradancers and who have
recently started coming to the English workshops.  The first time they
were there, the man of this new couple made plenty of mistakes, as do many
the first time that they come.  The impression that it gave me was that he
had never moved to music before in his life; we were starting from ground
zero, except that he was well on in life, being roughly of my own age.  So
I do a little bit of teaching about moving together, to the musical
phrase, but I don't lean on it too heavily.  He was quite social at the
break, and seemed quite interested; he apparently teaches literature of
the period somewhere.  They stayed to near the end; I told them as they
left that I hoped they'd come again.  The woman had done quite well for a
first time.

They have been regular since then, and while I notice changes and
improvement, he still makes mistakes with such frequency that I am
surprised that he hangs in there.  The other dancers have been gracious
about it, but they are taxed beyond reasonable expectation in their
efforts to help him get to the right place.  Forget the right time.

For most folks, even with our best efforts to accept mistakes, I feel that
they would be over their own personal thresholds for enjoying their own
mistakes; I'm pretty sure I would be.  It's clear from what is going on
that his threshold is different; perhaps the threshold for the man in the
first story was, too.

In either case there's a challenge -- we need to keep a flow of new
dancers into the ECD community, and we need to keep it fun for as many as
we can.  Losing a pair of potential dancers who presumably would have
quickly fitted in is hard; bringing new folks up to speed from a broad
range of previous experience is also hard; and keeping the folks you have
while this is going on is as important as anything.  

I don't know what the best way of dealing with this is.  I have accepted
the challenge to try to program and teach in such a way that this man can
continue to come and enjoy the evening while still giving the regular
dancers a good time.  I realize, too, that I need to avoid "stressing out"
about this as a leader, but that's easier said than done.  

I'd appreciate hearing from others with insight on this subject.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:51:48 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:52:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Re: authentic 1897 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Victoria Bestock wrote:

 > This year they are doing a feast from 1897, and my friend would like help
 > finding a dance from that period. 

Dancing, schmancing....what are they serving?

Nilos Nevertheless, who *does* get out of the kitchen to dance sometimes, but 
still wants to know
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:22:18 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:22:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911101622.KAA20946-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Eric Arnold writes:
> 
> I don't know what the best way of dealing with this is.  I have accepted
> the challenge to try to program and teach in such a way that this man can
> continue to come and enjoy the evening while still giving the regular
> dancers a good time.  I realize, too, that I need to avoid "stressing out"
> about this as a leader, but that's easier said than done.  
> 
> I'd appreciate hearing from others with insight on this subject.

   I don't have any particular insight into it, but I think this is one of
the most challenging aspects of leading dances.  I think this is often
underappreciated by the dancers, both experienced and newcomers.  I think
the mental attitude of the dancers is a major factor in how well this can
be done.  They need to be willing to enjoy the easy dances done for the
sake of the newcomers, be willing and able to accept and deal with the
mistakes they will make AND convey a positive and accepting attitude to
the newcomers so they won't be turned off by their own mistakes, especially
in the more challenging dances you do for the sake of the experienced
dancers.  I think the caller/leader's attitude make's a big difference in
this (bring the visible authority figure), but he/she/they can't do it
alone.  The entire group must take part in this.  Perhaps that is where
this discussion of help for mistakes comes in (getting back on topic).
If I know more about when and where people want (or don't want) help
then I can do a better job of helping (or not) while I'm dancing and
if that information can be conveyed to more of the dancers in the group
they will be better able to cope with the problems that will arise.
I, personally, have always enjoyed figuring out little ways to help my
partner, and the other dancers around me, and making them part of the
dance.  I try to mention these little tips from time to time when I'm
calling.  Whether they have any effect or not is more difficult to say.

Jonathan

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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
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Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:32:58 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:34:22 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b06b44f47d04cb8-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
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>They have been regular since then, and while I notice changes and
>improvement, he still makes mistakes with such frequency that I am
>surprised that he hangs in there.  The other dancers have been gracious
>about it, but they are taxed beyond reasonable expectation in their
>efforts to help him get to the right place.  Forget the right time.

Dear Eric,

I think every group probably has at least one person like this.  We have
someone - a very sweet natured man who absolutely adores dancing.  I think
it is the main thing in his life.   When he first started coming he was a
menace, but always so humble and apologetic about his mistakes that it was
impossible to be anything but goodnatured about them.  And he tried _so
hard_.  He would always be anxiously watching the other dancers to see what
to do, and would take advice (like "_this_ way" or "to me!") with
gratitude.

He has improved enormously, and we all remember the time he was in the
right place in a complicated dance, and a much more experienced dancer was
wrong.  It has taken about 3 years to get to this point, and he will never
be a dancer you can rely on to patch up a dance that is falling apart.
However, he has been a lesson to me not to give up on anyone who is truly
trying.

We have one person who does not appear to try at all, who seems to gain
little from a walkthrough or watching others, and who seems to rely on the
other dancers to push her through a dance.  I have no idea what she gets
out of the dancing except the social aspect.

And we have another who loves dancing, who is greatly liked by everyone,
who moves beautifully and revels in the flow of a dance, who squeals with
joy when a favourite is announced, but who gets terminally disoriented by
some figures (figure 8s for example) and is just as likely to go off in the
wrong direction as the right one, and wreck the whole move.

We just accomodate all these people.  They never lack partners (we have a
lovely community).  We smile at mistakes.  We try not to push people
around.  But here in this forum I can let off steam a little and say how
frustrating it is!

>In either case there's a challenge -- we need to keep a flow of new
>dancers into the ECD community, and we need to keep it fun for as many as
>we can. <snip>
>keeping the folks you have while this is going on is as important as
>anything.

>I don't know what the best way of dealing with this is.  I have accepted
>the challenge to try to program and teach in such a way that this man can
>continue to come and enjoy the evening while still giving the regular
>dancers a good time.  I realize, too, that I need to avoid "stressing out"
>about this as a leader, but that's easier said than done.

sorry, I don't have any suggestions, just a fellow feeling.  My husband and
I have been struggling with these issues, and wondered over and over again
whether we will ever be able to move beyond the easier dances to challenge
the core of very good dancers we have.  In the end I think there is nothing
you can do without dividing the community ("experts only for the next
dance" - no, I couldn't stomach that).  You just work with the people you
have and be grateful that anyone wants to show up to your dance and help
you indulge your favourite hobby.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:11:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:11:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Thank you, Emma and Jonathan, for your supportive comments.  Before we get
into another thread about the dancers in everybody's groups who are
similar to the one I described (which we have worked over in the past
quite thoroughly), let me ask more explicitly for responses that relate to
people's experience with varying threshold levels for being
flustered/embarrassed/frustrated by mistakes, and how that relates to the
effects on you as a leader or a dancer.  

I'm committed to the idea that, at least at some level, mistakes are
_really_ OK, and even, as Bruce suggests, contribute something to the
social atmosphere of the occasion.  At the same time, I feel I need to be
sensitive to the group collectively regarding my approach to that; my
saying that I'd like people to be relaxed about their own and other's
mistakes, and being what I say as well as I can, doesn't mean that others
will necessarily follow suit.  Again, it seems there will be a range of
thresholds for tolerance.  I also want to avoid projecting the idea that
it's OK to dance sloppily, without an effort to do it well.  What I'd like
to foster is enthusiasm and inspiration to do it better, while having fun
and allowing mistakes as part of that process.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

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Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:25:50 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:30:41 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Specifically concerning the problem of stepping to the music,
over on the MWSD (club square dance) e-list, there was a tale
of a couple who went through beginner lessons [please, no
comments] twice and still didn't make it.  Rather than go away
in disgust, they went to the caller, who gave them a couple of
records and told them to practice walking to the music.  When
they came back to class the next fall, they were both right on
time and right in place.  Magic.

While I don't want to suggest that people be sent away until
they can walk to the music, it is reasonable to suggest
homework to those having problems in this area, doable while
washing dishes, brushing teeth, walking with music on a
walkman, etc.  Not recommended while singing solo, since it's
too easy to cheat.



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:02:09 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:23:00 -0500
From: Anne Marie Edden <aedden-AT-
GRUZENSAMTON.COM>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Come Dance This Sunday
To: ECDCHAT <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Recovered from last weekend's English Dance workshops and ready for more?
Country Dance*New York, Inc. presents 
"Dancing with Style"
   with Fried de Metz- Herman
  An English Dance Workshop for Intermediate Dancers

 Musicians:Leah Barkan and Gene Murrow

Come spend a day with Fried focusing on the finer points.

Sunday, Nov. 14
10:30AM - 5PM
LUNCH BREAK: 1-2:30
     
$12 MEMBERS, $15 NON-MEMBERS
   HALF-DAY: $7 MEMBERS/$8 NON

Location: The General Theological Seminary, Gymnasium
	      	   175 9th Avenue (between 20th and 21st Streets), NYC

All dancers should be knowledgeable of the basic figures, and prepared to 
work on finer points of style, timing and movement.
  
Bring your clean, soft-bottomed, non-street (never worn outside) shoes!
Bring edible goodies to share

For more info call Annie Edden: 718-622-7415, aedden-AT-
gruzensamton.org
No pre-registration required.


Anne Marie Edden
Gruzen Samton Architects, Planners and Interior Designers LLP
212-477-0900
aedden-AT-
gruzensamton.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:58:55 PST
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:54:27 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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pavilion>
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The group I lead for Scottish Country dancing also allows new people each
week.  The time is from 7 - 10 pm - and I set aside 7 - 8 pm for working
with new people (regardless of number - whether 1 or 10) and sometimes when
it's only one or two people I can work with them more intensely on whatever
they have problems with.

The rest of the group shows up at 8 and from 8 -10 it's a mixed level with a
mixed program, alternating an easy dance that everyone can do immediately
with a more complex dance - for the complex dance I ask our new dancers to
watch the first time while the rest do it - then I put it on a second time
and have the more experienced each take a newcomer as a partner - this gives
experienced dancers a chance to enjoy the dance without having to focus on
helping the new people so much - then they repeat which generally they like
and then they don't mind helping someone
new (it also makes it easier to teach, since many seem to benefit from
watching the whole thing first and then trying it).

In encouraging them to try the trickier dance, I tell them something like:
the machine has a rewind button so we can always start again if anyone gets
lost - look on it as a form of entertainment and have a good laugh - who
knows maybe we'll invent a whole new dance (it's been known to happen more
than once that a "mistake" later was the basis for a new figure or dance)
and that everyone makes mistakes (sometimes giving an example from one of my
own bloopers).

I don't have a fixed program ahead of time but bring a variety of dance
music and instructions and make it up on the spot based on number and skill
level of those attending.

I also provide sample dance instructions and music for those who want to
practice at home or order materials for them if they like (there's a book
and CD that go quite well together for Scottish).  One couple warms up and
practices all their steps before arrival!

If we have a number of experienced dancers I throw in one or two dances in
an evening that I don't repeat for new people (too much of a challenge) but
tell them something for them to look forward to in the not too distant
future.  Usually new dancers haven't built the stamina to dance almost
continuously for two hours and
they're quite happy to have a rest.  So far this has worked fairly well.



Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes


>
>
> On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Bruce Hamilton wrote:
>
> [SNIP]
>
>  . . .  I think that mistakes are a normal part of country
> > dancing in a social context.  I'm not trying to minimize them.
> > Rather, I'm looking for ways to help the maker and the rest of the set
> > accept them gracefully and deal with them lightly.  (Of course I try
> > not to *cause* mistakes, and I help dancers avoid traps.  But even
> > when a caller does that, slips still occur.  It's in that setting that
> > I'm talking here).
> >
> > I've danced in groups that never make a mistake, and the dancing
> > doesn't feel as social as I like.  I can focus my attention tightly
> > enough that I don't make mistakes, but that focus takes away from my
> > enjoyment of what's going on around me.  I can teach a dance in such a
> > way that no one will make a mistake, but that takes longer than anyone
> > likes, and the dance then feels flat.  I can pick such easy dances
> > that no one will make a mistake, but the dancers would miss some
> > challenge.
> >
> > I view a steady trickle of minor slips as evidence that we have the
> > work/play balance right.  Then, since they're gonna happen, we learn
> > to treat them that way.  That's my aim.
>
> Bruce, thanks for a very clear and helpful statement.
>
> I expect that, no matter how hard I try to make light of mistakes and
> encourage the dancers to do likewise, it is still an individual's
> threshold for embarrassment combined with the number or frequency of
> perceived mistakes that he or she makes that will determine the response.
>
> Two extremes have come up this fall in my ECD workshop series.  The first
> was a man who came for the first time, with a partner who was also here
> for the first time.  He seemed to be getting along quite reasonably for a
> newcomer; I understood that he had started contradancing.  His partner did
> similarly well; they made different mistakes, but nothing particularly
> difficult to deal with, and I didn't notice any particular problems that
> the other dancers were having with either of them.  I thought that they
> were good prospects for returning.  But they left soon after the break,
> and before he left, he confided to me that he found the dancers "vicious"
> and implied that he hadn't had fun at all.  I promised that I would do
> what I could about that, but I was so taken by surprise that I didn't
> apologize to him for his bad experience or ask him for details before he
> was gone.  I haven't seen either of them since.  I talked about it with
> some of the dancers afterwards and some said his partner had said she was
> having fun.  They were, I think, even more surprised than I was.  It isn't
> as if we had never thought about situations like this -- I urge the
> dancers to try to offer their support and help to new dancers gently and
> with sensitivity.  I don't know whether the man's response was the
> result of his general experience or a reaction to a specific person or
> event.
>
> The second example concerns a couple, I believe who are married, who came
> with friends who are folks whom I know as contradancers and who have
> recently started coming to the English workshops.  The first time they
> were there, the man of this new couple made plenty of mistakes, as do many
> the first time that they come.  The impression that it gave me was that he
> had never moved to music before in his life; we were starting from ground
> zero, except that he was well on in life, being roughly of my own age.  So
> I do a little bit of teaching about moving together, to the musical
> phrase, but I don't lean on it too heavily.  He was quite social at the
> break, and seemed quite interested; he apparently teaches literature of
> the period somewhere.  They stayed to near the end; I told them as they
> left that I hoped they'd come again.  The woman had done quite well for a
> first time.
>
> They have been regular since then, and while I notice changes and
> improvement, he still makes mistakes with such frequency that I am
> surprised that he hangs in there.  The other dancers have been gracious
> about it, but they are taxed beyond reasonable expectation in their
> efforts to help him get to the right place.  Forget the right time.
>
> For most folks, even with our best efforts to accept mistakes, I feel that
> they would be over their own personal thresholds for enjoying their own
> mistakes; I'm pretty sure I would be.  It's clear from what is going on
> that his threshold is different; perhaps the threshold for the man in the
> first story was, too.
>
> In either case there's a challenge -- we need to keep a flow of new
> dancers into the ECD community, and we need to keep it fun for as many as
> we can.  Losing a pair of potential dancers who presumably would have
> quickly fitted in is hard; bringing new folks up to speed from a broad
> range of previous experience is also hard; and keeping the folks you have
> while this is going on is as important as anything.
>
> I don't know what the best way of dealing with this is.  I have accepted
> the challenge to try to program and teach in such a way that this man can
> continue to come and enjoy the evening while still giving the regular
> dancers a good time.  I realize, too, that I need to avoid "stressing out"
> about this as a leader, but that's easier said than done.
>
> I'd appreciate hearing from others with insight on this subject.
>
> Eric Arnold
>  Ann Arbor
>
>
>
>





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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:10:10 -0800
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com>
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Last night I made three mistakes, all in the same dance.  It was late in
the dance evening, I was tired, and my attention flew out the window
three times running.
	The dance was Fried's Mylecharane.  About the fourth time through, when
we reached the part where the men dance right-shoulder around their
partners, I blanked, and moved not a muscle.  My partner, a very good
dancer realized (a split second after I should have started moving) that
I wasn't doing so because I was off in space somewhere.  She simply said
"You dance around me."  I snapped to, hurriedly danced around her,
arriving just in time, and finished that round without further
incident.  I felt this was helpful advice, especially as it was given in
a friendly tone.
	It occurred to me, however, that had she waited a second or two longer,
it would have been better either to have said nothing or to have said
"You _should have_ danced around me," but put up her hand as a stop sign
to forestall my trying to do the move when I couldn't any longer have
arrived on time.
	Then we transitioned from 1's to 2's.  The second time through the
dance as a 2, when the 2's are to lead up through the 1's and set, I
blanked again.  This time my partner simply held out her hand, started
moving up, and looked at me.  I lurched forward as gracefully as I
could, led up, set, etc.  Whew!  Twice in one dance.
	Then, at the start of the very next round, I blanked again at joining
the right-hand star.  This time my partner, who was obviously watching
me closely by this point, simply chirruped a little laugh, which was
quite enough to bring me back to another semi-graceful lurch into the
star.
	One dance, three corrections, given in good humor and a friendly manner
in a total of four words, a hand and a look, and a chirrup.  The
minimalist approach, perhaps, but quite enough, especially when given in
such a friendly spirit.
	This experience and Eric's post earlier today make me realize that, as
most of those on this list (or who are bold enough to comment on it) are
relatively more experienced dancers, the examples we get in reply to
what Bruce asked, namely, current experiences with mistakes and
corrections, may leave out or underrepresent the mistakes of beginners. 
So, even though it will be a recounting of past history, I'll add a
different reply on that subject in a short while.
	Mike O'Connor


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:18:46 PST
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:19:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: adpete-AT-
jps.net
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu> wrote:
>sorry, I don't have any suggestions, just a fellow feeling.  My >husband and
I have been struggling with these issues, and >wondered over and over again
whether we will ever be able to >move beyond the easier dances to challenge
the core of very >good dancers we have.  In the end I think there is nothing
you >can do without dividing the community ("experts only for the >next dance"
- no, I couldn't stomach that).  You just work with >the people you have and
be grateful that anyone wants to show >up to your dance and help you indulge
your favourite hobby.
>

Emma,

I have seen callers challenge even the beginners with a fairly complicated dance
and everyone got through it. You certainly don't want to do that with a whole
evening, but once or twice gives a challenge to *everyone*. It actually helps
the less experienced dancers to get through a dance that even the better dancers
find challenging and then have someone congratulate them for it. It improves
their confidence and may be the pivotal event that brings them back because
they realize they *are* learning.

In thirty+ years I have seen a lot of new dancers who kept coming back and seemed
to be hopeless cases. Many of them do eventually "get it". There are some who
never do, but they try so hard and turn out to be an asset to the community
in other ways. That community is what it's really all about.

Andy in Portland
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:39:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:35:29 -0500
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Story Telling Tellabration
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT-
compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199911111238_MC2-8C90-7531-AT-
compuserve.com>
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Hi all -
an increasing presence of story telling, both for listening and the
development of the craft of telling, is evident in our camp programs. So,
no wonder that the latest CDSS News Calendar carries an entry about
Tellabration in the DC area.

Tellabration is a world-wide event and is celebrated in at least 53
locations, where on the same day (November 20, 1999) an evening of story
telling for adults is held. Call it a 'concert of stories' if you will.
Sometimes music - as a story accompaniment or an object within a story - is
included.

If you live in the Philadelphia, Tellabration is presented at Friends
Central School on City Line at 7:30 pm. Ray Tackett is among the tellers...

Hanny Budnick
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:33:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:01:46 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-
iae.nl>
Subject: RE: The Two Cousins (was High Points of NOMAD)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <19991111183356.B91897D2B-AT-
iaehv.iae.nl>
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Sharon Green wrote:
>
> The dance is The Two Cousins, by Wil van den Berg (snip)
> Instructions for Two Cousins are available in the booklet accompanying the
Dutch Crossing CD.
>
> The choreographer refers to her move as one-quarter siding.

Wil van den Berg (I hope you get to meet her someday) was inspired by a
dance movement in the BBC TV film of "Much ado about nothing", hence the
title of the dance. The subtitle is "Hero and Beatrice".

Wil van den Berg will be leading the band on the NVS Christmas Course in
Nunspeet, the Netherlands, so those of you who are coming will meet her
there. If you've not booked yet, hurry up and visit our website
http://www.nvs-dance.nl from which address incidentally you can find details
of the contents of the CD and book "Dutch Crossing".

Antony Heywood


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:33:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:17:39 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-
iae.nl>
Subject: New Year Dance in Somerset
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <19991111183401.6E3E17D26-AT-
iaehv.iae.nl>
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I don't really approve of extensive advertising on the ECD list but what can
I do when I live in the Netherlands and my sister (who is not a regular
country dancer) wants me to call a dance in her village in England to
stimulate local interest? The locals won't come in large numbers and those
that do would probably prefer to watch. In any case, plenty of experienced
dancers will make it go with a swing.

TWENTIETH CENTURY POPS

January 2nd 2000
2 p.m. to 6 p.m.
Caryford Hall
Castle Cary
Somerset
Caller: Antony Heywood, music: Orion's Ring
Tickets 5 pounds including afternoon tea
(students/senior citizens 3 pounds)

Order your tickets before 15 December and have a say in the programme: you
may suggest your three favourite dances written in the last 100 years
(inclusion subject to programme-building limitations).

Phone 01963 -- 351594, fax 01963 -- 351634 (anytime) or e-mail
[mailto:antony-AT-
iae.nl] before 15th December.

Please pass the news on to any you know who are not on the list.

Thanks,

Antony Heywood


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:39:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:40:06 -0800
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911112240.AA169590006-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote
>... my personal memory says that "Improprietary" is a very cool dance
>by Chris Sackett and Brooke Friendly of "the Heather and the Rose"
>country dancers; they're in Ashland, Oregon...

Right, but the title is "Impropriety," a name I like because it sounds
like something Jane Austen's evil twin would have written.


Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com> wrote:
>My guess is that Bruce is working toward something along the lines of
>"Do unto others as you would be done by..."  He's asking us to figure
>out how we would like others to help us, hoping we'll learn from that
>how to do a better job of helping others when it's our turn.

I am truly sorry to be mysterious -- I don't try to do that!  This
catches me without time to write anything fully, but I hope to do that
in a week or so.  I'll fill in bits here:
 * It IS useful to learn more about how you like to get help, and
   careful observation does better than generalizing from stale
   memories.  But that's a side effect of doing what I suggested.
 * The main effect was to come from reading the reports.  That is,
   each of us would reap the benefit by reading *everyone else's*
   reports.  I hoped that dozens of people would observe and post, but
   that hasn't happened.  If it had, the benefit would have become
   clear: when many people report directly on their own experience,
   without generalizing or drawing conclusions, patterns emerge.
   Those patterns are quite different from the content of any single
   report, and they're very near the truth -- better than what we can
   get from any other source.  I'm used to this because of my research
   into distributed systems, and I forget that it's unusual.  Until
   you've seen this effect and felt its power, you can't appreciate
   its value.  I'm no good at describing it.

Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>, Robin Hayden <RLHAYDEN-AT-
amherst.edu> and
"Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com> all posted non-judgemental
reports of a set of mistakes.  These help, Eric, Robin and Michael --
thank you.  Eric adds:

>Many of us ... face the perennial question of how to work towards
>improved dancing without an inhibiting emphasis on mistakes...
This puts it nicely.

>In new dancers, being yanked around, I suspect, similarly interferes
>with the development of kinesthetic memory...

Yes!  And not just new dancers.  One experienced dancer, a kinetic
learner, told me that it spoils her memorizing of a dance if someone
twirls her while she is learning it.


Carol Martines MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com wrote:
>...my reading of Bruce's request was that he wanted us to focus on
>our *own* mistakes, not those of our partners, and how, and when, we
>would have liked to be helped.
Ayup :-)

>Indeed, there might be times ... when we would have preferred not to
>be helped at all, since we would on our own have understood and fixed
>the problem and felt better about ourselves in the process.
That last bit is not just a sentence drizzling out.  Everyone, listen
to this woman.

>I was too overjoyed to even notice my mistakes, much less analyze
>them.  There'll be other opportunities...
:-)

Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu> later says:
>I'm committed to the idea that, at least at some level, mistakes are
>_really_ OK, and even, as Bruce suggests, contribute something to the
>social atmosphere of the occasion.

Just to be careful, I treat them as *evidence* that we're not obsessed
with accuracy -- I don't think they actually help.  A skier who never
falls down is probably not having the most fun possible, but I
wouldn't suggest "fall down" as a solution.

The parallel discussion of social effects is fabulous -- thank you,
everyone who has posted.

	    >>> Note new email address <<<
Bruce Hamilton			Agilent Laboratories  MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
agilent.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:04:04 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:54:00 -0500
From: pam-AT-
tedcrane.com (Pamela Goddard)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mistakes
To: hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <99111117540089-AT-
tedcrane.com>
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Bruce just wrote:

>I am truly sorry to be mysterious -- I don't try to do that!  This
>catches me without time to write anything fully, but I hope to do that
>in a week or so.  I'll fill in bits here:
> * It IS useful to learn more about how you like to get help, and
>   careful observation does better than generalizing from stale
>   memories.  But that's a side effect of doing what I suggested.
> * The main effect was to come from reading the reports.  That is,
>   each of us would reap the benefit by reading *everyone else's*
>   reports.  I hoped that dozens of people would observe and post, but
>   that hasn't happened.  

I feel obliged to be the possibly troublesome student
and ask the unasked, perhaps obvious question
(although a brilliant Lit. professor of mine used to often say
"nothing is obvious")

Why?
Why is it useful or important to analyze such often unconscious
aspects of dance.  What is gained from this kind of careful observation?
Are we not in danger of becoming far too cerebral about our dance?

The question is asked in openess & curiosity.
-Pamela Goddard
In the very intuitive town of Ithaca NY

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From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
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Emma Rushton writes:

>>but who gets terminally disoriented by some figures (figure 8s for
example)<<

In my opinion, the three most disorienting moves for beginners in ECD are
figure 8s, half figure 8s, and casting.  In all three moves there is some
point where the dancer is stepping *outside* the dance, with his/her back to
everyone, and absolutely no visual clues as to what they should do or where
they should go next.  I have seen dancer after dancer pathetically following
their partner around to the wrong side, or just milling around (I was a
milling-arounder myself), trying to figure out what to do.  Plus, figure 8s
(and half figure 8s) are hard on the beginner dancing the lady's role,
because the lady has to go first.

It occurs to me that one helpful thing for callers to do would be, at the
beginning of the evening, to take demo/teaching requests for figures that
individuals find terminally confusing.  You could limit it to two or three
figures, so as not to spend a huge block of time on it.  I think it would
really help to have the figure demonstrated and explained all by itself,
instead of just a rushed explanation in the middle of a bunch of other
figures for a dance.

It might take a while for this to have a noticeable effect, but I think that
if you did it evening after evening, a couple of figures at a time,
eventually it would help everyone become more clueful.  Plus, actually
soliciting demo requests would make it clear to beginners that it's OK to
ask.

Marian Phillips
San Francisco

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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:14:17 -0800
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
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Subject: Re: Why
To: ECD-AT-
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References: <99111117540089-AT-
tedcrane.com>

Pamela Goddard wrote:
> I feel obliged to be the possibly troublesome student
> and ask the unasked, perhaps obvious question

But why, Pam?  :~)


Sorry, couldn't resist.


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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:21:20 -0800
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com>
Subject: Re: Dealing With Mistakes
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
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Some weeks ago a thread started on this list about most memorable dance
camp experiences, and the focus was on memorable callers.  I didn't
contribute then because my most memorable dance camp experience had
little to do with the callers.  It was the other dancers, and how
helpful they were.  It was, of course, my first Pinewoods.
	I had started dancing that February.  I was fascinated.  I also made
mistakes all over the place.  I so badly wanted to do it right, but
there was SO-O-O much to learn, and all at once.  The dance moves, the
patterns of the dances, the timing, doing it gracefully, making eye
contact, smiling, or at least not frowning in such deep concentration
all the time.  I had the feeling that every mistake I made was instantly
visible to everyone on the floor.  Oops! I forgot what to do there. 
Oops again, I was late.
	And, I had my share of people grabbing my hand forcefully to lead me
with them so they would be certain I'd get there on time (M lead through
the W), and tart, or exasperated reminders when I'd make a mistake.
	I got to Pinewoods, and EVERYBODY was a far, far better dancer than I
(well, ok, there were three exceptions, but all I could really see was
how GOOD everyone was).  This was going to take forever.
	I think it was the second day, at a class in C#m, that I must have done
something that was a little awkward.  I no longer recall exactly what,
but it probably was something like a right-hand turn.  I wasn't even
aware I had done anything wrong, I was concentrating so hard on the
teaching.  There must have been a break, because my partner, Maggie
Grant, came over and asked "Would you like me to show you a different
way to do (whatever it was)?"
	It suddenly clicked in my head.  Yes, of course I would.  That's what
I'm here for.  And, as simple an idea as it may seem that I could learn
directly from a more experienced dancer, well, it had never occurred to
me.  So she showed, and I learned.
	I was SO-O-O excited with this idea that I noticed another dancer who
moved gracefully and made good eye contact, seemed to be a pretty good
dancer and seemed approachable, so I went up to him, explained I was a
new dancer, I wanted to get better, I admired his dancing and I wanted
to ask him if he had noticed anything in my dancing that I could work to
improve on.  It was Eric Arnold, and he was ever so gracious (even said
he was flattered I'd ask him, which made me feel good), said he hadn't
particularly noticed anything, but he would watch and see if he came up
with anything.  A day or two later he offered a comment about stepping
more gracefully, dancing, really.  I realized he was right, but that I
couldn't work on that right then (no room in the brain to work on an
additional think that week), but it stuck with me and I worked on it
later.
	In a different vein, and more or less simultaneously with all this, I
kept dancing with and past Ted Rudofker and Tanya Rotenberg, both of
whom were superb at anticipating a move with hand movements and eyes,
signalling what to do without saying a word.  Helping you to avoid a
mistake before it happened.  They seemed particularly good at sensing my
momentary distress when it recurred, the hesitation that says omigod,
what do I do next?  They were not alone in this, and I also fondly
recall David Bateman doing the same, but they are the ones who've stuck
in my mind as both the most active at this, but also the three who did
it with the most warmth, encouragement and good humor.  From a different
perspective, they helped me to see it was ok to be learning.
	There were others at that camp who were helpful in a variety of other
ways, but in the correcting or avoiding mistakes line, these five stand
out.
	It's a sort of footnote, but that fall I went to the Heritage Festival,
and, at one session, Liz Snowdon specifically asked the dancers if they
could help others get through the dance by guiding them with looks and
hand movements, instead of telling them what to do, or pushing or
pulling.  I thought it was a great thing for a dance leader to say.  I'm
certain that others have said similar things at dances I've been at
since, and that I haven't noticed as much.  But I do have the impression
that the suggestion is more often offered in the negative, and that the
emphasis is more on NOT pushing, than it is on guiding and supporting
those less experienced, and how to do so.
	You can really do a lot with hands and eyes, and making it clear where
and how you're about to move.  So another answer to how to deal with
mistakes is think ahead and help avoid them happening in the first
place.
	I know the custon is not to name other dancers in public postings like
this, and I hope no one will be upset that I identified six people in
this one.  But they were so helpful to me when I was starting, and I was
so appreciative, and I remember their help clear as a bell, so I forged
onward.

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From: Orly Krasner <okrasner-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Beginner disorientation
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I remember which figures gave me the most trouble when I started dancing not 
all that long ago, and I've since observed others having similar trouble.  
Circular heys took me a while because even though I understood the overall 
concept of up and down the set, by the time I was in the middle of a dance, 
up to tempo, with music, I would inevitably put in an extra twiddle some 
place.  Even practicing with hands only helped a little.  Since everyone's 
face was new, it was all I could do to remember who my partner was, let 
alone the other three people with whom I was dancing in any given round.  
The other stumper for me was the double figure of 8--I was okay so long as 
there was a pillar, but once everyone was moving, I was a goner.  Then one 
day Carol Martinez took that move apart very carefully and the lightbulb 
clicked on.  Haven't had trouble with it since!  Thanks, Carol!!  I think 
Marian's idea of carefully explaining troublesome figures would be very 
helpful.

--Orly Krasner
okrasner-AT-
hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 04:25:43 PST
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:26:05 -0500
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
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re: dealing with mistakes (and slightly off-topic, sorry): 
  ooh, i was gonna stay outta this, since i always say the one thing
nobody agrees with. 
  i won't go into my own mistakes, which are legion. my number one
rule is, try to make those mistakes with a smile on your face; hearts
will melt, and those angry looks from others will be disarmed.
  i do want to know if anyone else ever quietly calls for their
inexperienced partner. i know bruce and others have said, "do it
without words," but everyone absorbs things differently, and some
people are simply aural (oral?) rather than visual; i.e. they need it
said, not pointed to them. and even i find that sometimes the caller
is not very audible, or is calling way too late to help my partner, or
the partner is simply concentrating too hard on what's right around
them to even hear the voice floating above, and if i give tiny cues
(not a steady stream of conversation), they can make it. maybe this
makes them too dependent on having a calling partner, but i've been
thanked many times for continuing to give cues (i usually gesture or
grab eyes, too). i've mentioned this to other experienced dancers, and
they've agreed it can be helpful. so i hope that doing this isn't
setting these dancers back in thier development! 
  sharon "the OTHER sharon" mckinley
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From: Melissande de Manche <meli01-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Beginner disorientation
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     I too understand the point of carefully
explaining tricky figures.  It is a very important
ting to do, but from another prospective, it is very
difficult to do.  Once you have 95% of the group who
can do the step in their sleep, forward, backwards,
and upside down, it becomes very difficult to explain
the figures to a few people.  The people who have been
dancing forever and a day sometimes won't allow the
teacher to explain the dances because they decide to
talk.  This creates a difficult situation for the
teacher to decide how to deal with this.  If they run
through the difficult figure anyways then the
conversations sometimes do not stop (depending upon
the group), but if the figures arn't run through
throughly then not only is the dancer confused but so
is the rest of the set if something goes wrong.  It is
a really big judgement call to decide which way to
handle it on any given day.  Sometimes, the teacher
has no choice but to have the new dancer dance with a
sympathetic dancer who is a little bit better at
talking someone through difficult figures as they do
the dance.  It's not much of a consolation, but
teachers do the best they can.

Meli
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Archive-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:12:35 PST
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:17:32 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Conspicuous Consumption helps
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I discovered a way of explaining cast offs that seems to work
like a charm.  I was dancing with someone who was a no-longer
beginner contradance doing her first English country dancing.
Nothing was making sense, swirls were orchestrated, etc.  For
a cast she first tried going up [after all, that was the
direction we started], then following me [if all else
fails??].  Then, inspiration struck.

"This is English Country Dance.  They had lots of time to
waste, and dancing wastefully was a form of conspicuous
consumption.  So, if you want to go down, you start by going
up."


End of problem - not just with that figure, but will almost
all.  Has worked in modified form since.  Wonder if it would
work from a caller?

Gloria Krusemeyer
Northfield, MN

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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:14:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Beginner disorientation
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--- Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net> wrote:
> Emma Rushton writes:
> 
> >>but who gets terminally disoriented by some figures (figure 8s
> for
> example)<<
> 
> In my opinion, the three most disorienting moves for beginners in
> ECD are
> figure 8s, half figure 8s, and casting. 

I have thought for some time that the single most disorienting figure
in ECD is the cast.  I remember how difficult I found it when I
started ECD and that was with several years experience in contra. 
It's such a simple move, and so basic, but it is completely
counter-intuitive.  You have to go opposite to the direction you want
to move in.  

I have found that describing it as like a cloverleaf exit from a
highway helps get the point across.  That is something most everyone
is familiar with and it allows people to visualize what they have to
do.  It can still take a long time for someone to train their body to
go that way, but at least people have a mental image of what they're
trying to do.

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:04:22 -0500
From: Maryn McKenna <mmckenna-AT-
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i like barbara's recommendation, and gloria's especially, conspicuosity
being something of an enthusiasm of mine.

i'm definitely not a caller and suspect this wouldn't work as a broadcast
from the front of the room. but when introducing friends to ECD, i've
suggested they center their focus on the foursome/sixsome they're in.
"cast" then becomes not up v. down, but turning away from your foursome and
returning to it.

seems to work, but maybe i have weird friends.

maryn mckenna
dance-deprived in atlanta



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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:08:37 -0500
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: re: beginner disorientation
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re: casting:
  i've heard some folks refer to casting as "peeling a banana." works
for some!
  sharon
================================================================================
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:24:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: conspicuous consumption, casting
To: ECD-AT-
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On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Barbara Ruth wrote:
> I have thought for some time that the single most disorienting figure
> in ECD is the cast.  I remember how difficult I found it when I
> started ECD and that was with several years experience in contra. 

Jacqueline Schwab gave a very nice explanation of the cast at a weekend in
Pittsburgh a few Februarys ago.  She said it was called a "cast" because,
from above, the shape you dance on the floor is similar to cast iron
ornamentation (the sorts of gentle spirally flat bits of metal that hold
up lanterns and street lamps and such).  I'm not explaining it half as
well as she did, but perhaps you get the idea.  Even though I already well
understood the cast by that point, her imagery has stuck with me.

I think this ties directly into the conspicuous consumption idea: they
made the cast iron thingies for the same reasons.

On another note, I started ECD first, and then have done some contra, and
I never realized that casting was not a normal figure in contra.  I tend
to cast into heys and a few other figures by force of habit and because it
flows well, though perhaps that's not what I should be doing?

--will

11/12/1614 - Treaty of Xanten: Guliks-Kleefse War victory ends
11/12/1859 - Jules Leotard performs 1st Flying Trapeze circus act (Paris)
11/12/1920 - Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis elected 1st baseball commish
11/12/1927 - Stalin expels Trotsky
11/12/1933 - 1st known photo of Loch Ness monster (or whatever) is taken
11/12/1955 - Date returned to in "Back to the Future"

Happy birthday, Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815) and Grace Kelly (1928)!
Bonus points for explaining 1614 above.  Correctly or creatively :>

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

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Archive-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:40:49 PST
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:41:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: adpete-AT-
jps.net
Subject: Re: Beginner disorientation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:
>I have thought for some time that the single most disorienting >figure in ECD
is the cast.  <<snip>>
>
>I have found that describing it as like a cloverleaf exit from >a highway helps
get the point across.  That is something most >everyone is familiar with and
it allows people to visualize >what they have to do.  It can still take a long
time for >someone to train their body to go that way, but at least people >have
a mental image of what they're trying to do.
>

Lyrl and I went to Pinewoods for the first time in 1989. As those of you who
have been to camp have experienced, it can be a very intense program. Wednesday
night was a free night with no program planned in camp and we decided to go
out on Cape Cod for dinner. We drove down Rt3 and crossed the bridge onto the
Cape. As we approached the first cloverleaf intersection, Lyrl just automatically
said, "Cast off." We've laughed about that one for years.

Andy in Portland
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:47:27 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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It is interesting that few, if any, of the correspondents note that the
term "cast"  (and the motion) are not unique to country dancing. When I
teach a cast to beginners in scottish, english or contra dancing I call
attention to the fact that the motion and the term are also used in
reference to fishing, knitting and throwing grain (at the very least).
All these motions start with a "backcast" as does the cast in country
dancing. Almost everyone has either knitted or cast with a fishing rod,
though few today have cast grain". and they are familiar with the fact
that the motion starts in the opposite direction from that that it
finishes in. As dancers we tend to isolate ourselves from the "other"
world-unfortunately.

Ben Stein (NOT the Ben stein of Win Ben stein's Money)
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net




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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:05:29 -0500
From: Mary Conser <mconser-AT-
forwild.umass.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Beginner disorientation
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After teaching a beginning ECD this fall for the first time, I agree that
casting is difficult for beginners.  However if you start with a dance such
as Good Man from Ballengigh, it seems to make the transition easier.  In
this dance, the dancers lead through the dancers opposite them and cast
back to place, which is a fairly natural move. Thus they have learned to
turn away from each other and cast to the right or left around someone. 
The transition to casting up or down (without a couple to divide and go
around) is then much easier to explain and seems a somewhat natural
follow-up to what they already know.  It worked for us.
----------
> From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
> To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
> Subject: Re: Beginner disorientation
> Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 12:14 PM
> 
> 
> --- Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net> wrote:
> > Emma Rushton writes:
> > 
> > >>but who gets terminally disoriented by some figures (figure 8s
> > for
> > example)<<
> > 
> > In my opinion, the three most disorienting moves for beginners in
> > ECD are
> > figure 8s, half figure 8s, and casting. 
> 
> I have thought for some time that the single most disorienting figure
> in ECD is the cast.  I remember how difficult I found it when I
> started ECD and that was with several years experience in contra. 
> It's such a simple move, and so basic, but it is completely
> counter-intuitive.  You have to go opposite to the direction you want
> to move in.  
> 
> I have found that describing it as like a cloverleaf exit from a
> highway helps get the point across.  That is something most everyone
> is familiar with and it allows people to visualize what they have to
> do.  It can still take a long time for someone to train their body to
> go that way, but at least people have a mental image of what they're
> trying to do.
> 
> =====
> Barbara Ruth
> New Haven, CT
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:35:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:35:26 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Re: Beginner disorientation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <0.51ba7e2d.255dfe3e-AT-
aol.com>
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In a message dated 11/12/99 7:49:26 PM, you wrote:

<<Wednesday night was a free night with no program planned in camp and we 
decided to go out on Cape Cod for dinner. We drove down Rt3 and crossed the 
bridge onto the Cape. As we approached the first cloverleaf intersection, 
Lyrl just automatically said, "Cast off." We've laughed about that one for 
years.


Andy in Portland>>

But you probably casted LATE - as the unprogrammed night at Pinewoods has 
been Tuesday for as long as I have been going.

Carl Friedman 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 02:49:38 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 02:50:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Beginner disorientation
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991113105007.14288.rocketmail-AT-
web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- adpete-AT-
jps.net wrote:

> Lyrl and I went to Pinewoods for the first time in 1989. 

Well, that was an interesting typo: it was nineteen SIXTY nine.

> As we approached the first cloverleaf intersection, Lyrl just
> automatically said, "Cast off." We've laughed about that one for
> years.
> 
> Andy in Portland
> 


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:54:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:54:04 -0500
From: deaun moulton <cdeaun-AT-
home.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mistakes
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <382D97AC.2A8E3F7E-AT-
home.com>
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Hello all,

I made an interesting and amusing mistake last weekend in a room full of
good dancers.  Most of this group had danced together a good bit and
were attuned to one another's signals.  As first lady I was waiting for
the first corners to finish their movement and happened to catch my
corner's eye.  He was an old friend that I hadn't seen for awhile and,
naturally, I smiled at him.  He immediately started moving 2 bars
early!  He came back quickly and said, "Oops, I thought you were
signalling me that it was our turn!"  

I think it interesting that certain signals become an expected part of
the dance.  In my case, the act of catching eyes is in usually the first
thing I do before my feet move and the act conveys meaning to my
partner/corner, etc.  This seems to be common enough that my corner
reacted to it, even against his own judgment.  It seems that certain
signals have become part of the language, perhaps a vernacular, of the
dance.

regards,

deaun moulton
dancing less than she'd like in Waterloo, Ontario
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:29:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:34:27 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mistakes
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <007201bf2e61$eb5cdbe0$8711a3d1-AT-
gloria>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Smiling is a mistake?

I don't want to have my smiles rationed by the flow of the
dance and the possible OOPS's of the other dancers.  [though
if this does get legislated, please make lots of mistakes
around me so I can gently indicate where to go and smile to
show it doesn't matter, I still like you, and thank you for
the excuse to smile!]

I dance because I smile.  I smile because I dance.

I'm not sure how to differentiate the two, but don't ration
either, please!

Gloria Krusemeyer
Northfield, MN

-----Original Message-----
From: deaun moulton <cdeaun-AT-
home.com>
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 10:57 AM
Subject: Mistakes


Hello all,

I made an interesting and amusing mistake last weekend in a
room full of
good dancers.  Most of this group had danced together a good
bit and
were attuned to one another's signals.  As first lady I was
waiting for
the first corners to finish their movement and happened to
catch my
corner's eye.  He was an old friend that I hadn't seen for
awhile and,
naturally, I smiled at him.  He immediately started moving 2
bars
early!  He came back quickly and said, "Oops, I thought you
were
signalling me that it was our turn!"

I think it interesting that certain signals become an expected
part of
the dance.  In my case, the act of catching eyes is in usually
the first
thing I do before my feet move and the act conveys meaning to
my
partner/corner, etc.  This seems to be common enough that my
corner
reacted to it, even against his own judgment.  It seems that
certain
signals have become part of the language, perhaps a
vernacular, of the
dance.

regards,

deaun moulton
dancing less than she'd like in Waterloo, Ontario


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:06:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:02:22 +0100
From: M Sheffield <martin.sheffield-AT-
wanadoo.fr>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: beginner disorientation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991113120222.007cc260-AT-
pop.wanadoo.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <s82c1182.019-AT-
loc.gov>



Hey, Ben,

Tell me one day how you knit with a fishing rod !

( you wrote:
> Almost everyone has either knitted or cast with a fishing rod...)

;-)



Martin,
in Grenoble, France.
    ---
   http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/
(dancing, dances, cycling ...)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 04:28:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 07:30:30 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: beginner disorientation
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <382EAB66.9C9D6A54-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <s82c1182.019-AT-
loc.gov> <3.0.5.32.19991113120222.007cc260-AT-
pop.wanadoo.fr>

Alright Martin=it's a "gotcha")

Ben

M Sheffield wrote:

> Hey, Ben,
>
> Tell me one day how you knit with a fishing rod !
>
> ( you wrote:
> > Almost everyone has either knitted or cast with a fishing rod...)
>
> ;-)
>
> Martin,
> in Grenoble, France.
>     ---
>    http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/
> (dancing, dances, cycling ...)



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:28:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:28:24 -0500
From: Susan B Booker <SUSANTIQ-AT-
prodigy.net>
Subject: Berea's Christmas Country Dance School - Still Room!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <199911141928.OAA10702-AT-
pimout4-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello, Friends-

Just learned at last evening's Berea potluck and dance (great food; great
music; great dances, great fun!) that this year's Christmas Country Dance
School still has a number of openings. CCDS, an intensive course of classes
in dance, music, singing, crafts, storytelling, etc., with a stellar staff
of instructors and musicians, begins with registration on the afternoon of
December 26, and concludes after breakfast on Jan. 1, 2000 - following a
Millenium Banquet and Ball the previous evening. 

This year, registration is limited to those age 14 or above. Those who may
be affected by the Y2K bug are invited to stay over on Jan. 1 at special
Boone Tavern rates (limited availability; first come, first served) and
attend the Oh Contraire potluck and dance at the Acton Folk Center on the
evening of January 1. This is not officially part of Christmas School, but
would be a nice way to wind down and avoid both the Bug and that
oft-discussed post-dance-week-letdown.

For more information, see 

http://www.berea.edu/dance/dancehome/htm


Susan Booker,
happy that she lives close enough to Berea 
to drive there and back again for an evening!
...and wondering if anyone has composed "The Y2K Maggot" yet??

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:27:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:32:17 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Convention 2000 in Vancouver
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <004301bf2f2a$c8611240$3a22a3d1-AT-
gloria>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Shows where my head's at.  I spent half a minute wondering why
a SD list was talking about a Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Bass
consort  [having performed in an early music concert this
afternoon].

Gloria Krusemeyer

-----Original Message-----
From: joel laliberte <jrl-AT-
intergate.bc.ca>
To: Andrew.Chong-AT-
edu.gov.on.ca <Andrew.Chong-AT-
edu.gov.on.ca>
Cc: lgcwsd-AT-
dmshome.org <lgcwsd-AT-
dmshome.org>
Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Convention 2000 in Vancouver


>SATB has no active involvement with the Canadian National SD
Convention next
>July.  As always we would try to accommodate any housing
requests that come
>our way, but we ask some lead time as members during the
summer are often on
>vacations, etc.
>We are currently considering a request to run a club dance
around the time
>of the Convention in July but dates and levels are not yet
confirmed.
>
>You can best reach us directly at satb-AT-
home.com
>Joel
>
>At 04:27 PM 11/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Are there any officials from Squares Across the Border on
this list?
>>
>>Is SATB participating in Convention 2000 (the 12th Canadian
National
>>SD convention next July, not to be confused wuth Make Magic
in 2001,
>>the IAGSDC convention in 2001)?
>>
>>Convention 2000 is offering billeting as part of their
accomodation
>>package.  Is SATB involved, or planning on providing such to
IAGSDC
>>dancers?
>>
>>Andy (dances-with-women) Chong
>>Toronto
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:25:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:26:46 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Fenterlarick
To: ECD discussion list <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <382FEDF6.EEF9D320-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Does anyone know where the dance Fenterlarick, written in 1977 by Joyce
Walker,  was first published? It can be found in Not Quite Playford,
also in AADS News, but I remember there's some Staffordshire (?) source.

Thanks!

Philippe Callens

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:43:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:44:03 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fenterlarick
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <382FF203.4877BD0D-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Philippe Callens wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where the dance Fenterlarick, written in 1977 by Joyce
> Walker,  was first published? It can be found in Not Quite Playford,
> also in AADS News, but I remember there's some Staffordshire (?) source.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Philippe Callens

(And also in CDSS news 97 Nov/Dec 1990)

Staffordshire Silver Collection,  put out by the Stafordshire district
of the EFDSS

(But note that the tune was written later)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:51:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:52:18 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fenterlarick
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <382FF3F1.964E56E6-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
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uia.ua.ac.be> <382FF203.4877BD0D-AT-
ugsolutions.com>



Hugh Stewart wrote:

> Philippe Callens wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know where the dance Fenterlarick, written in 1977 by Joyce
> > Walker,  was first published? It can be found in Not Quite Playford,
> > also in AADS News, but I remember there's some Staffordshire (?) source.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Philippe Callens
>
> (And also in CDSS news 97 Nov/Dec 1990)

Right! And it was not published in AADS News. I typed that wrong.

>
> Staffordshire Silver Collection,  put out by the Stafordshire district
> of the EFDSS
>
> (But note that the tune was written later)

Was the tune written to fit the dance?
Hugh, do you know year of publication of that collection?


Philippe Callens


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 04:17:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:17:36 +0000
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fenterlarick
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <382FF9E0.D248F6E1-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <382FEDF6.EEF9D320-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be> <382FF203.4877BD0D-AT-
ugsolutions.com> <382FF3F1.964E56E6-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>

Philippe Callens wrote:
> 
> Hugh Stewart wrote:
> 
> > Philippe Callens wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where the dance Fenterlarick, written in 1977 by Joyce
> > > Walker,  was first published?
> >
> > Staffordshire Silver Collection,  put out by the Stafordshire district
> > of the EFDSS
> >
> > (But note that the tune was written later)
> 
> Was the tune written to fit the dance?

I don't know.  (Though since it has a different name I suspect not.)

> Hugh, do you know year of publication of that collection?

No.  (And I am having second thoughts that it might have been published
by the Stafford Folk Dance Club,  not the EFDSS district.)

They published a Ruby collection in 1992,  so I suspect the silver
collection was published in 1977.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:54:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:54:45 -0800
From: South Bay English Country Dance <sbecd-AT-
geocities.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bare Necessities CD?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19991115165445.0091cf30-AT-
pop.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi all.
the second BN CD (more favorites from the Boston center) was announced to be
released in early november. it is nov (exactly) mid-november, and I do not
recall seeing it offered for purchase on the list.
Did I miss the posting? or is it just a little late? or BC has chosen to
distribute it through more formal channels?
Thank you for any info you can offer.
Giovanni De Amici

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:41:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:41:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan Pearl <pearl-AT-
sw.stratus.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Bare Necessities CD?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911151741.MAA08754-AT-
alta.sw.stratus.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The 2nd entry in the Boston Centre's English Country Dance Collection
is indeed now available.  This recording has beautiful arrangements by
Bare Necessities for the following tunes, in dance-length renditions:

	Lilliburlero, Up With Aily, Bonny Cuckoo, Trip to Paris, Punchbowl,
	Kelsterne Gardens, Dublin Bay, Fair and Softly, From Aberdeen,
	Wibsey Roundabout, Elverton Grove, Bellamira, Prince William,
	and Smithy Hill.

The recording is entitled "More Favorites of the Boston Centre".

You can get samples of this, and the previous recording at
	http://www.ultranet.com/~shelagh/recording/

The following dealers will be stocking this item (with more to follow):
	Country Dance and Song Society
	Cotswold Music (UK)
        ...in addition to the musicians and producer (Gene Murrow)

For the prior release, we allowed anyone who ordered 6 or more copies to
purchase at the wholesale price. We are reconsidering this policy, as it
burdened us with many small orders and it took some income from bona fide
dealers (or the performers & producer themselves).  So I'll say this: If you
ordered Volume 1 under this policy, you are grandfathered in, and you may
order Volume 2 under the same policy.  New wholesale customers will be 
accepted (bona fide dealers, please; minimum 10 units [may combine titles]; 
inquire with me, Dan Pearl).


Volume 1 is also available: Favorites of the Boston Centre
	Jack's Maggot, Sun Assembly, The Old Mill, The Female Saylor,
	John Tallis' Canon, Sally in Our Alley, Long Live London,
	Round About Our Coal Fire, The Introduction, Hudson Barn,
	Bury Fair, Quite Carr-ied Away, and Easter Morn.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:02:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:02:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Bare Necessities CD?
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911151259310.11895-100000-AT-
allspice.cs.swarthmore.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 15 Nov 1999, Dan Pearl wrote:
> 	Lilliburlero, Up With Aily, Bonny Cuckoo, Trip to Paris, Punchbowl,
> 	Kelsterne Gardens, Dublin Bay, Fair and Softly, From Aberdeen,
> 	Wibsey Roundabout, Elverton Grove, Bellamira, Prince William,
> 	and Smithy Hill.
> 
> The recording is entitled "More Favorites of the Boston Centre".

title's wrong -- should be "More Favorites of Will Quale" :>  seriously,
you guys picked like 8 of my top 10 tunes for this one.  can't wait to
hear it!  (just think, if you'd put sion house and jack's health on here,
i'd never have to change cds ever again ... maybe it's good that you
didn't!)

--will

11/15/1660 - 1st kosher butcher (Asser Levy) licensed in NYC (N Amsterdam)
11/15/1763 - Charles Mason & Jeremiah Dixon begin surveying MD-PA border
11/15/1806 - Explorer Zebulon Pike sights Pikes Peak (Colorado)
11/15/1864 - Union Major General Sherman burns Atlanta
11/15/1938 - 1st telecast of an unscheduled event (a fire), W2XBT, NY

Happy birthday, F William Herschel (1738), Georgia O'Keefe (1887),
		Erwin Rommel (1891), Joseph Albert Wapner (1919)!
Today in 1630, one of my personal heroes, Johannes Kepler, passed on.

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:29:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:28:43 -0500
From: gaff-AT-
neu.edu (Terence Gaffney)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bare Necessities CD?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v02130505b4560038b030-AT-
[155.33.181.244]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>Hi all.
>the second BN CD (more favorites from the Boston center) was announced to be
>released in early november. it is nov (exactly) mid-november, and I do not
>recall seeing it offered for purchase on the list.
>Did I miss the posting? or is it just a little late? or BC has chosen to
>distribute it through more formal channels?
>Thank you for any info you can offer.
>Giovanni De Amici
The second BN CD is being shipped as I write. it should be available at
CDSS this week and at Cotswold music shortly thereafter.  Wholesalers can
still work directly with Dan Pearl.

More copies of the first CD have also recently arrived.

best,
 Terry


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:25:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:25:21 -0500
From: Susan B Booker <SUSANTIQ-AT-
prodigy.net>
Subject: Oops! Christmas School URL Correction
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <199911152225.RAA563178-AT-
pimout2-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Well, it _was_ pretty late last evening when I sent a typo-ed address for
Berea's Christmas School. I was kindly corrected by a reader, and here is
the address:

http://www.berea.edu/dance/dancehome.htm

What a difference a dot makes....

Susan Booker
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:03:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:03:37 -0500 (EST)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fenterlarick
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <0.ceb9617a.2561f959-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If you look back through the ECD archives you should find a posting of mine 
on the subject of Fenterlarick, following a conversation I had with Fred 
Grimshaw on the subject (he composed the tune, and later the same day offered 
it when asked if he knew a suitable tune for the dance).
                                                        Nicolas B., Lanark, 
Scotland.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:31:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:31:48 -0800
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: FAQ for rec.folk-dancing
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <199911161532.HAA15381-AT-
wolfenet.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I'm in the process of putting together an FAQ for the newsgroup 
rec.folk-dancing. I'm hoping to collect together links to useful web 
pages, address of organisations and anything that is likely to be of 
use to people.

There has already been some discussion on r.f-d about the FAQ 
(search deja.com for a thread entitled "FAQ for rfd"). If anyone has 
any links or other information they think should be in the FAQ 
please email them to me and I'll add them. The hope is to have a 
first draft of the FAQ ready in a couple of weeks.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:11:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:11:02 -0500 (EST)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.9911161300590.150192-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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nOn Tue, 9 Nov 1999 MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/9/99 10:56:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, mls-AT-
panix.com 
> writes:
> 
> << I don't believe that Bruce was advocating that we need to stress out about
>  memory lapses.  My reading of his posting was that he wanted us to examine
>  how we felt at times we needed help so that we could identify which
>  particular actions would both have helped us and have left us feeling good
>  about having received help.

Bruce gives some wonderful class segments on making dancing mistakes and
recovering from them.  Among the most memorable was in St Croix at the
English week. (Week to be repeated Feb 2001 per George Marshall!)

Bruce asked the Bare Necessities to illustrate ways of recovering from
errors.  Earl Gaddis did a marvelous job of illustrating the mistakes:  I
remember especially that he played a wrong note on his violin and then
while the other three were continuing, he went back to his wrong note,
plaayed it, and then tried to catch up, playing all the notes fast so he
could catch up to the others.

In another example, Jacqueline stopped playing the piano and reached over
to put Earl's finger on the right string in the right place while Peter
and Mary kept on playing the tune.  ans another example:  Earl made a
mistake;  all three others stopped playing and started yelling at him.

Sound familar?

Perhaps we could all help him -- and other dancers on strathspey and ECD
-- by recounting our recent dancing mistakes and how we felt about
recovering from them, with or without help. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:17:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:04:19 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <199911161404_MC2-8D59-F21D-AT-
compuserve.com>
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Message text written by Priscilla Burrage:

>he [Earl] went back to his wrong note, plaayed it, and then tried to catch
up, 
playing all the notes fast so he could catch up to the others.

In another example, Jacqueline stopped playing the piano and reached over
to put Earl's finger on the right string in the right place while Peter
and Mary kept on playing the tune.  ans another example:  Earl made a
mistake;  all three others stopped playing and started yelling at him.

Sound familar?<

Yeah!  Sounds like a typical Bare Necessities recording session  ;-)  

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and producer of the forthcoming "More Mistakes
of the Boston Centre" CD
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:33:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:33:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.9911161431320.150192-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
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On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 adpete-AT-
jps.net wrote:

> Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu> wrote:
> I have been struggling with these issues, and >wondered over and over again
> whether we will ever be able to >move beyond the easier dances to challenge
> the core of very >good dancers we have.  In the end I think there is nothing
> you >can do without dividing the community ("experts only for the >next dance"
> - no, I couldn't stomach that).  You just work with >the people you have and
> be grateful that anyone wants to show >up to your dance and help you indulge
> your favourite hobby.

and adpete replied: 
> I have seen callers challenge even the beginners with a fairly complicated dance
> and everyone got through it. You certainly don't want to do that with a whole
> evening, but once or twice gives a challenge to *everyone*. 

Just teach that challenging dance early in the evening!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:58:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:59:36 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b25b457676a391a-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>and adpete replied:
>> I have seen callers challenge even the beginners with a fairly
>>complicated dance
>> and everyone got through it. You certainly don't want to do that with a whole
>> evening, but once or twice gives a challenge to *everyone*.

and Priscilla Burrage  replied:

>Just teach that challenging dance early in the evening!

What?  Make all the inexperienced dancers run away, and your problem is solved!

;-) ;-) ;-)

No, I _do_ know what you really meant - I think!

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:54:44 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:51:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.991116124958.8215B-100000-AT-
crl.crl.com>
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On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Priscilla M. Burrage wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 adpete-AT-
jps.net wrote:
> 
> > Emma Rushton <rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu> wrote:
> > I have been struggling with these issues, and >wondered over and over again
> > whether we will ever be able to >move beyond the easier dances to challenge
> > the core of very >good dancers we have.  In the end I think there is nothing
> > you >can do without dividing the community ("experts only for the >next dance"
> > - no, I couldn't stomach that).  You just work with >the people you have and
> > be grateful that anyone wants to show >up to your dance and help you indulge
> > your favourite hobby.
> 
> and adpete replied: 
> > I have seen callers challenge even the beginners with a fairly complicated dance
> > and everyone got through it. You certainly don't want to do that with a whole
> > evening, but once or twice gives a challenge to *everyone*. 
> 
> Just teach that challenging dance early in the evening!

Er -- not *too* early; the learning curve for the beginners will then be 
so steep that they give up immediately after, and leave, figuring this 
stuff is way too hard for them. I've seen it happen far too many times. 

We usually save the challenge of the evening for the dance right after 
the break.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:25:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:25:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: adpete-AT-
jps.net
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <3831d9c7.5772.0-AT-
jps.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Saturday night at the Portland Ball I was dancing with one of our quieter list
members (I'm embarassed to admit that her name escapes me). As we met Sharon
Green (dancing the man's part) and her partner (was it Laurie Buchanan? Can't
remember that either.) my partner made a slight mistake which we quickly recovered
from. As the four of us circled I said, "And when would you have liked to have
been prompted?" All four of us cracked up.

Andy in Portland
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:41:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:37:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.9911161836280.87492-100000-AT-
gnu.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Paul J. Stamler wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Priscilla M. Burrage wrote:
> > Just teach that challenging dance early in the evening!
> 
> Er -- not *too* early; the learning curve for the beginners will then be 
> so steep that they give up immediately after, and leave, figuring this 
> stuff is way too hard for them. I've seen it happen far too many times. 
> 
> We usually save the challenge of the evening for the dance right after 
> the break.

Your class must be remarkable.  that's usually when my class starts to
fall apart if taught something new.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:24:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:19:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Dealing with mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.991116211736.23496C-100000-AT-
crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Priscilla M. Burrage wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Paul J. Stamler wrote:
> > 
> > Er -- not *too* early; the learning curve for the beginners will then be 
> > so steep that they give up immediately after, and leave, figuring this 
> > stuff is way too hard for them. I've seen it happen far too many times. 
> > 
> > We usually save the challenge of the evening for the dance right after 
> > the break.
> 
> Your class must be remarkable.  that's usually when my class starts to
> fall apart if taught something new.

It isn't a class, it's our monthly dance. And before that point the 
beginners have no idea what to do at all -- I'm talking first-time-there 
beginners, of which we get a few at almost every dance. 

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:34:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:30:30 -0500
From: "Gary M. Roodman" <roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Belshazzar's Feast in Binghamton, NY, Saturday, September 11
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991117093030.01ebf2a0-AT-
mailbox.cc.binghamton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

				
	IT'S TRUE!

	John Turner and Belshazzar's Feast from England will be doing two dance
events in Binghamton on Saturday, September 11.  Here are some specifics:

  2:00pm -  5:00pm	  English Country Dance Workshop	  Cost = $10.00

  7:00pm - 10:00pm	  New-England-Style Contra Dance	  Cost =  $7.00

									        OR Attend both events
										      for just $15

LOCATION:   		Binghamton High School Gymnasium
				Corner of Main and Oak Sts.
				(31 Main St. OR 98 Oak St.)
				Binghamton, NY

MORE INFORMATION:	Call Gary Roodman, 607-771-0593
		     or   Write to roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu

					EXCELLENT FUN!
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:02:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:02:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Belshazzar's Feast in Binghamton, NY, Saturday, September 11
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991117160212.3057.rocketmail-AT-
web2903.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- "Gary M. Roodman" <roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu> wrote:
> 				
> 	IT'S TRUE!
> 
> 	John Turner and Belshazzar's Feast from England will be doing two
> dance
> events in Binghamton on Saturday, September 11.  

An event for the members of this list who are able to respond to
messages before they've even been posted!
:)


=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:26:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:26:36 -0800
From: giovanni de amici <g.deamici-AT-
trw.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Belshazzar's Feast in Binghamton, NY, Saturday, September 11
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3832D73C.5438EF47-AT-
trw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <3.0.5.32.19991117093030.01ebf2a0-AT-
mailbox.cc.binghamton.edu>

of which year?
unless this posting is TWO months old and only now found its way to my
mailbox, the 11th day of september will not happen again to be a
saturday until the year is 2005!
any help will be appreciated.
Giovanni De Amici

"Gary M. Roodman" wrote:
> 
> 
>         IT'S TRUE!
> 
>         John Turner and Belshazzar's Feast from England will be doing two dance
> events in Binghamton on Saturday, September 11.  Here are some specifics:
> 
>   2:00pm -  5:00pm        English Country Dance Workshop          Cost = $10.00
> 
>   7:00pm - 10:00pm        New-England-Style Contra Dance          Cost =  $7.00
> 
>                                                                                 OR Attend both events
>                                                                                       for just $15
> 
> LOCATION:               Binghamton High School Gymnasium
>                                 Corner of Main and Oak Sts.
>                                 (31 Main St. OR 98 Oak St.)
>                                 Binghamton, NY
> 
> MORE INFORMATION:       Call Gary Roodman, 607-771-0593
>                      or   Write to roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu
> 
>                                         EXCELLENT FUN!
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:50:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:48:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dr Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Belshazzar's Feast in Binghamton, NY, Saturday, September 11
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <SIMEON.9911171655.M-AT-
sixup.oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Not before they're posted - this came out in the summer
Paul

On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:02:12 -0800 (PST) Barbara Ruth 
<barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com> wrote:

> --- "Gary M. Roodman" <roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu> wrote:
> > 				
> > 	IT'S TRUE!
> > 
> > 	John Turner and Belshazzar's Feast from England 
> will be doing two > dance
> > events in Binghamton on Saturday, September 11.  
> 
> An event for the members of this list who are able to 
> respond to messages before they've even been posted!
> :)
> 
> 
> =====
> Barbara Ruth
> New Haven, CT
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

----------------------
Dr Paul Davis
Computer Teaching Officer, OUCS, 
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN
01865 283414

-------------------------------------------------------------


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:03:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Belshazzar's Feast in Binghamton, NY, Saturday, September 11
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991117170334.483.rocketmail-AT-
web2901.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Really?  It just arrived in my box today.  I was assuming the date
was a typo.  Makes you wonder where it's been all this time.  And all
those people who swore they answered email...

--- Dr Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
> Not before they're posted - this came out in the summer
> Paul



=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:08:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:07:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Country dance traditions (long)
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.9911171143070.117086-100000-AT-
elk.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Patricia Ruggiero wrote:

> 2) A couple of years ago I taught "Philandering" (Fallibroome, Bk. 6,
> attributed to W. Blackman, 1826) to our English group.  One of the Scottish
> dancers in the group was quite surprised by the last figure: "I didn't know
> English had double triangles!"

In the first place they weren't 'English" and 'Scottish' in 1826.  It was
still all one tradition, with regional, not nationistic variations.
Nationalism reared its ugly head a few years later and is just now dying
out in various parts of the world even as it continues in other parts. 

In the second place, the "Scots" didn't have "double triangles" in 1826.
It came about in the early 2oth century when the SCDS was trying to figure
out the pattern from the name.  The double triangles of 1826 was more like
the figure in Waverley (according to Hugh Thurston).


> I start with the assumption that SCD was not a separate tradition in the
> 18th c.  

Excellent.  Today we wear clothes designed in Paris or Rome.  Then they
did dances devised in London, Edinburgh, Paris, or wherever sounded elite.

> I further assume that we have to look to events in the 19th and 20th
> centuries to understand the development of the differing styles and
> repertoire of ECD and SCD.  

How about the rise of nationalism?

> In the 20th c., Cecil Sharp and Jean Milligan
> created different revivalist traditions, each of which has continued to
> evolve in its own way.

The difference is that Sharp told people when he made up a figure and Miss
M didn't.  I don't mean to imply that I think Sharp was better than Miss
M. for this admission.  He knew he didn't have any dance training and she
had a degree in dance -- as well as one in theater.


> Whether it's "double triangles," or "set to and turn corners," or "cross and
> set, repeat to places" (or "set and cross, repeat"), or "all that setting,"
> or "turning away from the person you just set to," there are figures and
> sequences that we now think of as the provenance of either SCD or ECD that
> were part of a common vocabulary in the 18th century.

Marjorie McL gives a very good argument re the corners position. It does
come from a dancing master who taught in Scotland (see Fleet).  He was
teaching Duke of Perth: The 'set to and turn corners' comes comfortably
from a center position after the 'turn corners' position.  And the concept
of setting to someone, turning them, and then reeling with however many
comes from the Highland formations pattern.  So there is a small
contribution that can be called 'Scottish.'  I wonder if all those great
Scottish traditions, art forms (Robert Burns, Sir Walter  Scott, today's 
kilt) came about because they lost their identity after the Batttle of
Culloden.  

> As for Early American and American contra figures, my interest is the same:
> not to pigeonhole a figure as to a particular country dance style, but to
> explore the evolution of  figures across the centuries by looking at who was
> dancing the dances, when, how, and under what circumstances.

Wonderful.  I like to think of a continuum of social dancing that lasted
over two centuries and migrated to North America.

More fun dancing than thinking about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:27:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:20:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Belshazzar's Feast in Binghamton, NY, Saturday, September 11
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Gary M. Roodman wrote:

> 				
> 	IT'S TRUE!
> 
> 	John Turner and Belshazzar's Feast from England will be doing two dance
> events in Binghamton on Saturday, September 11.  

And if y'all haven't heard these people, run (don't walk) in the 
direction of Binghamton. They're lovely folks, fantastic musicians.

Peace.
Paul
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:21:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: adpete-AT-
jps.net
Subject: Re: Country dance traditions (long)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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>On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
>> As for Early American and American contra figures, my >>interest is the same:
not to pigeonhole a figure as to a >>particular country dance style, but to
explore the evolution >>of figures across the centuries by looking at who was
dancing >>the dances, when, how, and under what circumstances.
>>

Priscilla M. Burrage replied:
>Wonderful.  I like to think of a continuum of social dancing >that lasted over
two centuries and migrated to North America.
>

Since moving to Oregon ten years ago, I have come to realize that the biggest
difference between here and the east coast, particularly my New England experiences,
is that everything here (relative to the white man first coming to this region
150 years ago) is new and there is no real sense of long-standing traditions
in most peoples lives. Here, as in other places where the American contra dance
has grown up in the last twenty or so years, the old traditional dances are
seldom, if ever, done and the dancers have no sense of the roots of the tradition.
Many contra dancers claim to "hate" English dancing and yet many of them wouldn't
recognize most English dances if they weren't told they were English. Having
done English and contra for over thirty years, I have learned about the evolution
that has occurred over three centuries. Most contra dancers don't even realize
that what we do today is a new evolution and is different than what I first
experienced at Pinewoods thirty years ago with Ted Sanella as the caller. In
fact, I would say that many of the callers out there don't *really* know the
traditional New England dances and are unaware of the changes that have occurred.


I had an interesting conversation with a Portland dancer at Folklife several
years ago. She is Dutch and, as her children grew up, she has continued to celebrate
the traditions that she grew up with. She told me that her sister in the Netherlands
has not kept up their childhood traditions. (Some of my Scandinavian dance friends
have had the same experience with their old country relatives.) A few days before
Folklife her daughter had called her from UofO in Eugene and during the conversation
told her that she was thankful for the traditions that her mother has kept alive.
She said that many of her friends at school didn't really have any traditions
in their lives. 

I think that this is generally true of our modern electronic society and media
hype of everything "new", but is more true in the western cities than in the
east where the traditions have had more time to take root. I specify the cities
because I think that small towns and rural communities tend to hold their traditions
better, but the young people have left traditions behind as they left the farms
and moved to the cities. The hard-working farmers, who actually have simpler
and more structured lives, will make time for traditions whereas with the hectic
pace of life in the city people tend to feel that they don't have the time for
such things. There is so much to do and so much demand on their time that traditions
lose out.

Just some rambling thoughts that I've had on the subject of traditions in modern
society.

Andy in Portland
...where I'm glad that Nan Evans started the new tradition of the English Ball
several years ago.
================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:14:09 -0500
From: Gary Roodman <roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: IT IS ALL A MISTAKE, I'M SORRY TO SAY.  No Belshazzar's Feast
To: ecd-digest-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Dear ECD Folks,

	It was with great astonishment that I read today that Belshazzar's Feast
will be performing here in BInghamton, NY next September.   I was doubly
astonished to discover that I was the one who informed everyone on the list
about the event.  

	With sadness, I am writing now to tell you that there will be no such
event.  The message that somehow just re-circulated to the ECD list is the
one I sent  last summer when John Turner and Beshazzar's really were
coming.   

	The whole thing is a puzzlement to me.  I have no record in my e-mail
account of having sent the message again.  At the moment, I am wondering
what else might have been sent out again this morning.   Maybe my whole
"Sent-Messages" file got re-sent.  If so, I am going to have some very
puzzled friends, colleagues, and relatives.  Many of those friends are on
this list, so I just want to warn them that, if they get anything else from
me today,  don't pay any attention to it.

Gary

 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:19:45 PST
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Errors, Portland
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Folks --

The (altogether wonderful) Portland Ball provided me with a number of
opportunities to observe my mistakes and the reaction to them.

In "The Wives' Triumph", which starts with a CCW poussette, I was fine as a 1
but started off wrong as a 2.  My partner Kimberley McKittrick declined to be 
pulled or pushed the wrong way (I can't remember which), and gently but firmly
went the right way.  I said "are you sure" and she nodded, so I just went with
her.  (The second time through I tried to poussette with the wrong couple
- I was not at my most mentally acute that day.)  Once I realized what I'd been
trying to do, we both laughed, and then we shared a smile about it every time 
the poussette came round again.  I think K's reaction was just right - it kept
us on track in a dance that would have been hard to disentangle, it didn't 
leave me feeling one-down, and it turned into a shared joke that made the dance
more fun.


Same dance - it's a Bray dance, so designed to look good rather than feel 
good - I was experimenting with imposing some flow onto the dance, and got
carried enough away that I started into a left-shoulder corner cross.  (I think
this actually has some merit, but it's not really within the scope of accepted
variation unless the caller says to do it.)  Sharon Green raised an eyebrow, 
said "Left shoulder? Okay." and passed me left shoulder.  I also thought this
was an excellent reaction - it left the dance unbroken, reminded me that I was
doing a nonstandard thing, and didn't insist on the 'right' thing.

FTWK dances:

When my set of five-couple "Step Stately" melted down in the triple minor
portion, I found myself firmly (but non-physically) directing the active 
couple to their progressed place (which worked) and also calling the sequence
(which wasn't very effective).

When my set of "Trip to Hexham" got collectively pretty confused, we all just
kept going, even with wrong-sex partners.  I saw some stress on some brows. I
thought the best I could do was to just keep dancing, and I mostly didn't mess
it up any further.



Both those dances raise the question -- I'm departing here from strict
observation to make dangerous unsupported generalizations and ask a new
question -- of what best to do about repairing fragile dances that get into
non-obvious configurations.


Example (not from the Portland Ball, or from Portland at all): THE PILGRIM,
longways duple.  Starts with first corners turning by the right all the way
around, all four circling half, turn single.   Second corners the same.  At the
end of that, you're right back where you started the whole thing.  But if the
first corners turn halfway instead of  all the way, it's very hard to untangle
in the available time, especially  since the goalposts keep changing through
the rest of the dance.  If the caller walks over, breaks it up, and moves those
couples through to progressed place, the dance won't break down, but what do
you do if you're an individual dancer with no special authority and you're in
the set and see this error?  Stopping and going on to the next couple is the
cleanest solution, but you have to persuade three other people that it's the
best thing.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:17:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:12:07 -0800
From: Laurie Buchanan <laurieb-AT-
cirl.uoregon.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03102806b458d0a8234e-AT-
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On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com> wrote:

>I hoped that dozens of people would observe and post, but
>that hasn't happened.  If it had, the benefit would have become
>clear: when many people report directly on their own experience,
>without generalizing or drawing conclusions, patterns emerge.

and then quoted Carol Martinez:
>Indeed, there might be times ... when we would have preferred not to
>be helped at all, since we would on our own have understood and fixed
>the problem and felt better about ourselves in the process.
That last bit is not just a sentence drizzling out.  Everyone, listen
to this woman.

I'm a week behind on the digest version; been having too much fun at the
Portland Ball, etc.  Perhaps this thread is still going:

I've been dancing for 20 years and, while I don't know it all ;-), I like
to think I'm a good dancer.  At Monte Toyon Fall weekend last month I made
a mistake in a dance (don't remember whether it was contra or ECD) while
with a neighbor who didn't know me.  He prompted me with words for the rest
of that round of the dance and did the same later when we met again in the
same dance.  I really didn't like this.  His assumption that I always dance
like that and can never remember what comes next was positively irritating.
I really wish I had been able to say something to him, politely of course,
which would have made him stop treating me that way, but at first I was too
surprised and later when he did it again, I knew I wouldn't be polite if I
spoke, so I didn't.

I know that when I make mistakes it is a great opportunity to learn more
about how to respond to others' mistakes and I sure learned a lot from this
experience.  Now I'd like to say that I appreciate all of you who have
corrected me over the years with eyes or smiles and then assumed that I
would be ok.

As an afterthought, I would also like to say that I make far more mistakes
when dancing with experienced dancers than with beginners.  Perhaps I feel
I can let my mind wander more??  Gotta work on that one.

Laurie in Eugene


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:04:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:04:55 -0500
From: "Todt, Frederick R" <todt-AT-
BATTELLE.ORG>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: anyone know Redding Fair?
To: "'ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu'" <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
CC: "Joseph Pimentel (E-mail)" <yusuf-AT-
umich.edu>
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Dear list,

Can anyone direct me to the dance instructions for "Redding Fair"?  I'm
asking on behalf of Carol Kopp of Cleveland.  Her regular musicians found
the tune in Barnes and loved it, so they want her to learn to call the
dance.  Please reply to me, or to the list, and I'll forward the info on to
Carol.  Thanks!

Fred Todt
Columbus, Ohio
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:48:15 PST
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:48:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: IT IS ALL A MISTAKE, I'M SORRY TO SAY. No Belshazzar's Feast
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991118014840.63392.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>
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Gary Roodman wrote:
>It was with great astonishment that I read today that Belshazzar's >Feast 
>will be performing here in BInghamton, NY next September.

Since I heeded the notice when it was posted the first time, and did go to 
it then, I can say that *I* was astonished to hear Belshazzar's Feast, and 
their astonishing baroque oboe belting out the tunes. I guess, with this 
kind of publicity, they can come back *next* September to an awaiting crowd. 
   :)

Margherita

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:19:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:20:52 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Errors, Portland
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3833B6E4.A5E8DADA-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
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References: <01JIG0OOYIJM8ZH52G-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>



Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Folks --
>
> The (altogether wonderful) Portland Ball provided me with a number of
> opportunities to observe my mistakes and the reaction to them.
>
> In "The Wives' Triumph", which starts with a CCW poussette, I was fine as a 1
> but started off wrong as a 2.  My partner Kimberley McKittrick declined to be
> pulled or pushed the wrong way (I can't remember which), and gently but firmly
> went the right way.  I said "are you sure" and she nodded, so I just went with
> her.  (The second time through I tried to poussette with the wrong couple
> - I was not at my most mentally acute that day.)  Once I realized what I'd been
> trying to do, we both laughed, and then we shared a smile about it every time
> the poussette came round again.  I think K's reaction was just right - it kept
> us on track in a dance that would have been hard to disentangle, it didn't
> leave me feeling one-down, and it turned into a shared joke that made the dance
> more fun.
>
> Same dance - it's a Bray dance, so designed to look good rather than feel
> good - I was experimenting with imposing some flow onto the dance, and got
> carried enough away that I started into a left-shoulder corner cross.  (I think
> this actually has some merit, but it's not really within the scope of accepted
> variation unless the caller says to do it.)  Sharon Green raised an eyebrow,
> said "Left shoulder? Okay." and passed me left shoulder.  I also thought this
> was an excellent reaction - it left the dance unbroken, reminded me that I was
> doing a nonstandard thing, and didn't insist on the 'right' thing.

Alan got so carried away at the Portland Ball ... The dance from Bray is really
called "The Wives'Victory"".

Philippe Callens

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:46:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:41:53 -0800
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210102b45984c25c1e-AT-
[24.8.188.38]>
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As our dances are on Tuesdays, we will have a dance on February 29. The next time we can have a Tuesday dance on a Feb. 29 in a year ending in 000 is  2400. (Apparently, Feb. 29 in 2000, 2400, 2800, 3200, etc. are all Tuesdays.)

In any case, what could we do special to celebrate this unusual leap day, in the context of an evening of English Country Dance? 

"We" are in Santa Barbara. http://www.sbcds.org/ecd/
--
Gary D. Shapiro   <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
"Pat, I'd like to buy a lower case vowel in 60 pt. Cooper Black Italic."
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:46:36 PST
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:41:53 -0800
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210102b45984c25c1e-AT-
[24.8.188.38]>
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As our dances are on Tuesdays, we will have a dance on February 29. The next time we can have a Tuesday dance on a Feb. 29 in a year ending in 000 is  2400. (Apparently, Feb. 29 in 2000, 2400, 2800, 3200, etc. are all Tuesdays.)

In any case, what could we do special to celebrate this unusual leap day, in the context of an evening of English Country Dance? 

"We" are in Santa Barbara. http://www.sbcds.org/ecd/
--
Gary D. Shapiro   <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
"Pat, I'd like to buy a lower case vowel in 60 pt. Cooper Black Italic."
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:17:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:18:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dr Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <SIMEON.9911181204.A-AT-
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Err the next time Feb 29 is in a year ending 000 is 4000 on 
that basis!
Paul


On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:41:53 -0800 "Gary D. Shapiro" 
<garyes-AT-
iname.com> wrote:

> As our dances are on Tuesdays, we will have a dance on 
> February 29. The next time we can have a Tuesday dance on a 
> Feb. 29 in a year ending in 000 is  2400. (Apparently, Feb. 
> 29 in 2000, 2400, 2800, 3200, etc. are all Tuesdays.)

----------------------
Dr Paul Davis
Computer Teaching Officer, OUCS, 
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN
01865 283414

-------------------------------------------------------------


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:49:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:49:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911180915070.18024-100000-AT-
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Gary,

We share that date with you for our English Country Dance workshop.  While
I had noticed that this was an unusual leap-day, in that it is a
"doubly-irregular" leap-day (meaning that the rules for inserting a
leap-day have gone two steps beyond the usual cycle of one every four
years), I hadn't noticed that all of the doubly-irregular leap-days would
be Tuesdays -- that's actually seven times more frequent than one might
have expected!  So it's not unusually rare -- it's unusually frequent!

(It results from the fact that, with the calendar corrections to the usual
leap-year schedule (omit the leap year every 100 years not evenly
divisible by 400), there are 146097 days in a 400-year span.  Since this
is divisible by 7, the whole calendar repeats including the day of the
week, until we encounter the next level of correction.)

Doesn't this become a Sadie Hawkins Day, with all of the implications
(including that the women get to invite the men to dance)?  Of course,
that's just for any old leap-day, but it's 28 years between ordinary
leap-days falling on a Tuesday, so it's still pretty special -- I hope
we're still dancing then...

Of course, we need to commemorate the occasion with a special dance
written especially for it.  Every fourth time through the tune, an extra
beat is inserted in a special measure, and the figure is altered to
accomodate this, after which everything goes back to normal for a while;
but after some number of these leap-steps, this is left out.  For an
experienced dance, this wouldn't be called, but left up to the dancers to
get right on their own.  Report forms for submission to Bruce Hamilton
would be available on a table on the side for filling out mistake reports
while the memory was fresh...  There would also be a laptop running with
an e-mail connection for direct submission of reports to enable prompt
feedback... 

It would be appropriate for the special movement to be a leap equivalent
to an extra step; perhaps to keep things interesting for the experienced
dancers, it would involve an unusual progression with a change of partner
and gender role, and possibly active/inactive status (hey, this is
beginning to sound intriguing!)

Better quit while I'm ahead  (;-^)

Eric Arnold 
 Ann Arbor




On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Gary D. Shapiro wrote:

> As our dances are on Tuesdays, we will have a dance on February 29. The next time we can have a Tuesday dance on a Feb. 29 in a year ending in 000 is  2400. (Apparently, Feb. 29 in 2000, 2400, 2800, 3200, etc. are all Tuesdays.)
> 
> In any case, what could we do special to celebrate this unusual leap day, in the context of an evening of English Country Dance? 
> 
> "We" are in Santa Barbara. http://www.sbcds.org/ecd/
> --
> Gary D. Shapiro   <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
> "Pat, I'd like to buy a lower case vowel in 60 pt. Cooper Black Italic."
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:20:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:18:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911181502590.998-100000-AT-
allspice.cs.swarthmore.edu>
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On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Eric Arnold wrote:
> (It results from the fact that, with the calendar corrections to the
> usual leap-year schedule (omit the leap year every 100 years not
> evenly divisible by 400), there are 146097 days in a 400-year span.  
> Since this is divisible by 7, the whole calendar repeats including the
> day of the week, until we encounter the next level of correction.)

you just made my day!  it's probably not quite cool enough to make my
entire repeating-calendar-unit, but it was definitely cool enough for
today.  which leads me to ask (going far, far, far off-topic ...) if
there's an actual name for this 146,097-day-long unit.  

though this is not nearly as impressive as the longest named period in a
calendar system: the Mayas had extremely large periods, including the
alautun, equal to 23,040,000,000 days (about 63 million years).  and
nowadays we're amused by mere millenia ... sheesh! :>

(see http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/calendar21.html for more calendar
facts that you knew there were)

> Of course, we need to commemorate the occasion with a special dance
> written especially for it.  

this was hilarious, eric.  thank you!

--will

11/18/1307 - William Tell shoots apple off his son's head
11/18/1497 - Vasco da Gama reached the Cape of Good Hope
11/18/1902 - Bkln toymaker Morris Michton names teddy bear after Roosevelt
11/18/1928 - Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse debuts in NY in "Steamboat Willie"

Happy birthday, Sojourner Truth (1787), Eugene Ormandy (1899)!
Today in 1995, Ted Sannella departed, to call squares among the spheres.

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:51:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:49:20 +0000
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Long Live London?
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000701bf3206$63419c20$2047fea9-AT-
oemcomputer>
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I will try and post the original dance (ie as taught by Pat Shaw when he
first called it - I was there!!)

Michael Barraclough


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
> [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of David Berman
> Sent: 29 June 1999 20:46
> To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Subject: Long Live London?
>
>
> Hi Listies All,
>
> Normally a reader of others' messages,
> I thought I'd ask for help today.
>
> During some shuffling of paper, I found
> a dance we did in Arlington Heights, MA,
> after the NEFFA.
>
> I recorded it as best I could, but think
> I'm missing something.  If anyone can
> help me, I'd appreciate it.
>
> Long Live London
>
> Four Changes Right and Right (Backward)
>
> Women Change, Men Change
>
> Women Change, Men Change
>
> Neighbors Swing
>
> Ladies Change
>
> Ladies start a Right Hand Star, men fall in
>
> Progress to a Left Hand Star with next neighbors
>
> Set and Turn Single, end facing same neighbors
>
>
> Questions:
>  I'm not certain if the Four Changes
> are the same as Women Change Men Change.
> Are they?
>  If not, I cannot recall what I meant
> by Right and Right Backwards.
>  As I recall, this dance REALLY MOVES.
> But I'm having trouble figuring out
> how long the swing is now, and the
> changes.
>
> If anyone can share the missing pieces
> with me, I'd be delighted.
>
> Thank you (all) in advance,
>
> David Berman
> Toronto
>
> PS:  Does anyone have the CD
>      from King's Noyse, "The
>      King's Delight"?  If so,
>      can you comment on its
>      qualities for dance
>      practice?  Thanks   -D
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:39:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:39:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911181613590.18024-100000-AT-
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On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Will Quale wrote:

> you just made my day!  it's probably not quite cool enough to make my
> entire repeating-calendar-unit, but it was definitely cool enough for
> today.  which leads me to ask (going far, far, far off-topic ...) if
> there's an actual name for this 146,097-day-long unit.  

 . . .

> (see http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/calendar21.html for more calendar
> facts that you knew there were)

I haven't looked yet -- does it observe that in this 146,097-day period
(of which 97 are leap-days) that 13 will be Sunday, 15 Monday, 13 Tuesday,
15 Wednesday, 13 Thursday, 14 Friday, and 14 Saturday?   (All of this
done, mind you, with a $10 calculator -- no web pages, calendar programs,
universal calanders, or whatever...)

This could be the basis for the tune's structure -- "A" section, 13 bars,
"B", 15 bars, etc., and played in the order
CAFDBGECAFDBGECAFDBGECAFDFDBGECAFDBGECAFDBGECAFDB
DBGECAFDBGECAFDBGECAFDBGBGECAFDBGECAFDBGECAFDBGE ad lib.

Eric

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:44:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:44:55 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <199911181644_MC2-8DB5-D98A-AT-
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Message text written by Eric Arnold:
>Better quit while I'm ahead  (;-^)

Hey, you're just getting started!  Looking forward to seeing that dance.

Gene 


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:51:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:49:57 -0500 (EST)
From: CF1125-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 11/18/99 12:20:05 PM, you wrote:

<<Err the next time Feb 29 is in a year ending 000 is 4000 on 
that basis!
Paul>>

How about 3000???
Carl
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:11:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:59:23 -0800
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04210100b45a306b9579-AT-
[24.8.188.38]>
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References: <SIMEON.9911181204.A-AT-
sixup.oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>

Gosh, Paul, you're absolutely correct. This is embarrassing for one who passes himself off as a math tutor.

Okay, Bruce, I made a mistake! 

The Calendar FAQ says there's a proposal, not adopted, to make every 4K years not a leap year. If that happens, the next Tuesday, Feb. 29, in a year ending in 000 will be in the year 28000 (if my paper and pen calculations are correct). I hope someone's written an appropriate dance by then. If so, it will be on our program over at the Westside Community Center, except it'll have been below sea level for about 25900 years.

>Err the next time Feb 29 is in a year ending 000 is 4000 on 
>that basis!
>Paul
>
>
>On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:41:53 -0800 "Gary D. Shapiro" 
><garyes-AT-
iname.com> wrote:
>
> > As our dances are on Tuesdays, we will have a dance on 
> > February 29. The next time we can have a Tuesday dance on a 
> > Feb. 29 in a year ending in 000 is  2400. (Apparently, Feb. 
> > 29 in 2000, 2400, 2800, 3200, etc. are all Tuesdays.)

--
Gary D. Shapiro   <garyes-AT-
iname.com>  Pronounced "Gary Yes!" 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:01:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:59:57 -0500
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04220801b45a42c5e58a-AT-
[206.72.193.122]>
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References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911180915070.18024-100000-AT-
gorf.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

At 9:49 AM -0500 11/18/99, Eric Arnold wrote:
>It would be appropriate for the special movement to be a leap equivalent
>to an extra step; perhaps to keep things interesting for the experienced
>dancers, it would involve an unusual progression with a change of partner
>and gender role, and possibly active/inactive status (hey, this is
>beginning to sound intriguing!)

This does sound intriguing

I'd imagine something where every leap occurrance was a different 
move, along the lines of your CAFDBGE progression... this time an 
extra turn single, next time a setting, etc.

I guess it would depend on how long the extra bit of music was that got added.

If the progression changed (actives <--> inactives) every leap 
occurance, you'd never get very far up or down a long line, eh?

Mary Beth Goodman
Quilt Show Bureaucrat - http://www.nyquilts.org
Quilter - http://mbgoodman.tripod.com
Flotsam Curator - http://mbgoodman.tripod.com/flotsam3.html
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:31:50 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JIHMM03HGY91VYMA-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Mary Beth Goodman quoted Eric Arnold:

  >It would be appropriate for the special movement to be a leap equivalent
  >to an extra step; perhaps to keep things interesting for the experienced
  >dancers, it would involve an unusual progression with a change of partner
  >and gender role, and possibly active/inactive status (hey, this is
  >beginning to sound intriguing!)

and wrote:

  This does sound intriguing

  I'd imagine something where every leap occurrance was a different 
  move, along the lines of your CAFDBGE progression... this time an 
  extra turn single, next time a setting, etc.

Actually, we could nod to tradition and do up-a-double the first time, 
siding, and arming in subsequent times.

But I wanted to point out an interesting dance possibility,  initially
brought to my notice by James Langdell - "The Happy Clown", in Wilson's
Complete System of Country Dancing.  It has a figure where you jump up and
down in place to the music.  Not bad for _leap_ year, eh?

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:49:40 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:49:32 -0800 (PST)
From: James Langdell <jamesc-AT-
bassclar.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <199911190049.QAA03137-AT-
bassclar.eng.sun.com>
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Alan Winston said:
> But I wanted to point out an interesting dance possibility,  initially
> brought to my notice by James Langdell - "The Happy Clown", in Wilson's
> Complete System of Country Dancing.  It has a figure where you jump up and
> down in place to the music.  Not bad for _leap_ year, eh?

If I remember correctly, I found the tune and dance instructions
in one of the 18th century Walsh country dance books.  It was 
Wilson (or another anonymous book that might be by Wilson) who 
pointed to that dance and its leaping in place as an example of 
how far the art of country dancing had declined.

--James Langdell    jamesc-AT-
eng.sun.com   OR  langdell-AT-
earthlink.net

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:53:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:54:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 CF1125-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 11/18/99 12:20:05 PM, you wrote:
> 
> <<Err the next time Feb 29 is in a year ending 000 is 4000 on 
> that basis!
> Paul>>
> 
> How about 3000???
> Carl
> 
3000 is not a leap year, so it doesn't have a Feb. 29.

Eric

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 06:12:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:13:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911190901490.26914-100000-AT-
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On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Mary Beth Goodman wrote:

[snip]
 
> I'd imagine something where every leap occurrance was a different 
> move, along the lines of your CAFDBGE progression... this time an 
> extra turn single, next time a setting, etc.
> 
> I guess it would depend on how long the extra bit of music was that got added.
> 
> If the progression changed (actives <--> inactives) every leap 
> occurance, you'd never get very far up or down a long line, eh?

Actually, I was thinking of having something like stars or circles
normally going once around, but going 5 places around on the leap phrase,
and if one of the couples were improper when this took place, then all
gender roles would be reversed, and two of each minor set would change
from active to inactive.  

But what you're saying would still be true with any regular occurrence of
the leap part, I expect, or else it would end up switching the same two
back and forth between 1's & 2's, while the other two would simply switch
roles.  Some other gimmick would have to come in between to break the
regularity of the pattern from time to time...

Eric
i

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 06:20:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:21:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911190913460.26914-100000-AT-
breakout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
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On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> But I wanted to point out an interesting dance possibility,  initially
> brought to my notice by James Langdell - "The Happy Clown", in Wilson's
> Complete System of Country Dancing.  It has a figure where you jump up and
> down in place to the music.  Not bad for _leap_ year, eh?

Actually, this seems quite appropriate, since a "leap" year is that in
name only -- it's really a "pause" year, in that we take a day off from
turning our regular calendar pages and let one slip by before we resume
our regular pattern -- so in the dance, a leap in place or a turn single
or some other move that leaves you in your place, inserted occasionally
(to keep synchronized to the music, of course...) would seem to represent
the idea quite nicely.

Eric

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:33:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:33:40 -0500 (EST)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <0.4cf68b46.2566d5e4-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Will Quale asked:

 >you just made my day! it's probably not quite cool enough to
 >make my entire repeating-calendar-unit, but it was definitely
 >cool enough for today. which leads me to ask (going far, far,
 >far off-topic ...) if there's an actual name for this
 >146,097-day-long unit.

Please, no! If we name it, we'll have to argue about whether the
first one was numbered "0" or "1" and therefore, when the next one
starts.

Let's just call it "400 years" and be done with it. The main point
is that every 400 years, the calendar repeats (dates and days)
because there is a non-fractional number of weeks. There are 97
leap years in the 400-year period (in the last 400 years, it was
every 4th except 1700, 1800, & 1900). 1600 & 

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:00:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:55:56 -0800 (PST)
From: James Langdell <jamesc-AT-
bassclar.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Re: Feb 29 dance
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: jamesc-AT-
eng.sun.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <199911192155.NAA07413-AT-
bassclar.eng.sun.com>
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James Langdell said:
> Alan Winston said:
> > But I wanted to point out an interesting dance possibility,  initially
> > brought to my notice by James Langdell - "The Happy Clown", in Wilson's
> > Complete System of Country Dancing.  It has a figure where you jump up and
> > down in place to the music.  Not bad for _leap_ year, eh?
> 
> If I remember correctly, I found the tune and dance instructions
> in one of the 18th century Walsh country dance books.  It was 
> Wilson (or another anonymous book that might be by Wilson) who 
> pointed to that dance and its leaping in place as an example of 
> how far the art of country dancing had declined.

I've not found the critical mention of "The Happy Clown" yet,
but I found the Walsh "Complete Country Dancing Master that had
the music and instructions:

Happy Clown

Longways for as many as will.

First Cu. cross over, and turn Hands with the 2d Cu.  _.

Cast up into your own Place, all four Back to Back with your own.  _:

All four set, turn single, give three Jumps (with the
Time of the Tune) and turn single  _.

then cast off, and figure int othe 2d Cu. Place.  _:

--James Langdell    jamesc-AT-
eng.sun.com   OR  langdell-AT-
earthlink.net

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 07:20:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:22:56 +0100
From: Antony Heywood <antony-AT-
iae.nl>
Subject: RE: FAQ for rec.folk-dancing
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <19991120152104.83BF07D32-AT-
iaehv.iae.nl>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The Volksdansvereniging NVS organises all sorts of ECD activities in the
Netherlands.
People travel and want to dance whilst on holiday.
We have had visitors to our camps, weekends and courses via the internet.
So a question like "where can I dance in Holland" could well be answered by
a link to our site:
http://www.nvs-dance.nl

Thanks,

Antony Heywood

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> [mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]On Behalf Of Bob Archer
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 4:32 PM
> To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Subject: FAQ for rec.folk-dancing
>
>
> I'm in the process of putting together an FAQ for the newsgroup
> rec.folk-dancing. I'm hoping to collect together links to useful web
> pages, address of organisations and anything that is likely to be of
> use to people.
>
> There has already been some discussion on r.f-d about the FAQ
> (search deja.com for a thread entitled "FAQ for rfd"). If anyone has
> any links or other information they think should be in the FAQ
> please email them to me and I'll add them. The hope is to have a
> first draft of the FAQ ready in a couple of weeks.
>
> Bob
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> -- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
>


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:32:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:32:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991121173234.4681.rocketmail-AT-
web2106.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Laurie Buchanan <laurieb-AT-
cirl.uoregon.edu> wrote:

[From Bruce Hamilton]
> [He] then quoted Carol Martinez:
> >Indeed, there might be times ... when we would have preferred not
> >to be helped at all, since we would on our own have understood and
> >fixed the problem and felt better about ourselves in the process.

> That last bit is not just a sentence drizzling out.  Everyone,
> listen to this woman.

[Laurie says:]
> I've been dancing for 20 years and, while I don't know it all ;-),
> I like to think I'm a good dancer.  At Monte Toyon Fall weekend
last 
> month I made a mistake in a dance while with a neighbor who didn't
> know me.  He prompted me with words for the rest of that round of
> the dance....His assumption that I always dance like that and can
> never remember what comes next was positively irritating....

> I know that when I make mistakes it is a great opportunity to learn
> more about how to respond to others' mistakes and I sure learned a
> lot from this experience.  Now I'd like to say that I appreciate
all 
> of you who have corrected me over the years with eyes or smiles and
> then assumed that I would be ok.

Not only is it irritating when someone constantly prompts an
experienced dancer (in my case, 30 yrs.), but I become totally lost
when the prompting continues. It's like driving: When my husband, a
Boston area native, says turn right, turn left, go straight, I
couldn't find the place again if I had to. If I have to find my own
way, I learn how to go.

Once when I made a mistake in a 3-couple set in an "experienced"
class at Pinewoods, my partner corrected me verbally, then he and
other members of the set continued to correct me--even though I
wasn't doing anything wrong!--until after about the 4th or 5th
figure, I was completely lost. By then obviously upset, I finally had
to ask them to cut it out.

This discussion has made me more aware of how much to prompt
beginners. When Bruce called for us in Boston 2 weeks ago, one of my
partners during the evening was a German gentleman who hadn't done
English before and who asked to be prompted. Looking back, I can see
that I received a clear non-verbal message when to prompt less and
when to stop.

--Lyrl


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:03:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:03:56 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Mistakes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911211903.NAA04414-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Lyrl Ahern writes:
> 
> This discussion has made me more aware of how much to prompt
> beginners. When Bruce called for us in Boston 2 weeks ago, one of my
> partners during the evening was a German gentleman who hadn't done
> English before and who asked to be prompted. Looking back, I can see
> that I received a clear non-verbal message when to prompt less and
> when to stop.

   I've been calling for a few years (contras, squares and ECD) and
enjoy occasionally calling while dancing.  This works well early in
the evening when the crowd is still fairly small and the dances are
simpler.  Occasionally when dancing (as a dancer, not a caller) I will
do a little prompting if my part of the line seems to be having some
trouble.  I don't do this more than once or twice through the music
since by then everyone should be back on track and moved out of range
down the line in any case.  I can't say for sure how I decide when to
do this, though when people are standing and looking puzzled rather
than dancing that is usually a clue that they need a little help.
At the local contra dance last Friday during one dance there was a
knot of confusion near the bottom of the set at one point.  I don't
know if I would have decided to help out on my own, but one of the people
in that group called out to me as I was circling by and asked me to
prompt them.  So I called the dance a couple of times through for the
people in my vicinity and everyone was able to get back on track.

   In this case I was specifically asked (verbally) for help.  I gave it
and then stopped once everyone was going OK again.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:26:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:26:46 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Christmas Ball in Urbana, IL, 12/18
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911211926.NAA06303-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

                  The Central Illinois English Country Dancers
                                   Present An

                   E N G L I S H   C O U N T R Y   D A N C E
                          C H R I S T M A S   B A L L


   The Central Illinois English Country Dancers will be holding their fifth
annual Christmas Ball on Saturday, December 18, 1999.  The dance will be held
at the Channing-Murray Foundation, 1209 W. Oregon, Urbana, IL, on the campus of
the University of Illinois.  There will be a review of the evening's dances
from 7:00 to 8:00, followed by the Ball from 8:00 to 11:00 p.m.  Fans and
finery are encouraged.  Bring fruit or a dessert to share.  There will be a
$5.00 suggested donation to help cover the cost of the Ball.  All lovers of
English Country dance and music are welcome.

Dances Lead By: Jane Hobgood, Patricia Moffitt and Jonathan Sivier
Music Provided By: The Flatland Consort
Dance Review: 7:00 p.m.
Christmas Ball: 8:00 to 11:00 p.m.
Date: Saturday, December 18, 1999
Location: Channing-Murray Foundation, 1209 W. Oregon, Urbana, IL
Suggested Donation: $5.00

   There will be refreshments and a mummers' play at the break and a dessert
party following the dance.

   For further information contact Jonathan Sivier (j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu) at
217/359-8225 or Jane Hobgood at 217/328-1708.  You can check the Christmas
Ball website at http://www.prairienet.org/ciecd/xmas.html

   Thanks for the support of the Champaign Park District and the Urbana
Country Dancers.

   For those who are interested, the Urbana Country Dancers will be holding a
contra dance on Friday, December 17, from 8 to 11 p.m. at the Phillip's
Recreation Center, 505 W. Stoughton, Urbana.  Lisa Ornstein from Indianapolis
will be calling and the band will be Matty and the Cornstalkers.  Lisa will
be leading a free waltz workshop at 7:00 prior to the contra dance.

   Central Illinois English Country Dancers is a member of the Champaign
County Cultural Consortium.


                    If we don't see you at the Ball,
                    Then 'Happy Hols' to one and all!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:26:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:39:05 -0500
From: catdancer-AT-
juno.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: IT IS ALL A MISTAKE, I'M SORRY TO SAY.  No Belshazzar's Feast
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991121.182245.-70993.5.catdancer-AT-
juno.com>
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Gary -

You ARE precious! :)
In reading your message, I can almost feel your horror at believing that
your entire "sent" file flew the coop once again!  I sincerely hope that
didn't happen.  As far as I'm concerned, a message from you is always
welcome - even if it is two months old.

Hugs-
Helen


On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:14:09 -0500 Gary Roodman <roodman-AT-
binghamton.edu>
writes:
> Dear ECD Folks,
> 
> 	It was with great astonishment that I read today that 
> Belshazzar's Feast
> will be performing here in BInghamton, NY next September.   I was 
> doubly
> astonished to discover that I was the one who informed everyone on 
> the list
> about the event.  
> 
> 	With sadness, I am writing now to tell you that there will 
> be no such
> event.  The message that somehow just re-circulated to the ECD list 
> is the
> one I sent  last summer when John Turner and Beshazzar's really were
> coming.   
> 
> 	The whole thing is a puzzlement to me.  I have no record in 
> my e-mail
> account of having sent the message again.  At the moment, I am 
> wondering
> what else might have been sent out again this morning.   Maybe my 
> whole
> "Sent-Messages" file got re-sent.  If so, I am going to have some 
> very
> puzzled friends, colleagues, and relatives.  Many of those friends 
> are on
> this list, so I just want to warn them that, if they get anything 
> else from
> me today,  don't pay any attention to it.
> 
> Gary
> 
>  
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:44:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:43:34 -0800
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Summary of mistakes discussion (long)
To: strathspey-AT-
tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com
Message-ID: <199911221943.AA164649814-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Here is a summary of the responses to the questions I suggested on
October 27.  These things are always subjective -- in deciding what
was an answer, which category it fell in, etc.  So while I report
numbers, please understand that this is all approximate.

I asked people, the next time they made a mistake, to notice:
 * What kind of help would you have liked?  Be specific: would you
   have liked to feel something?  To see something?  To hear
   something?  A combination of those?  What would it have been --
   what touch, what image, what sounds?
 * When would you have liked it?  For example, two bars before you
   went wrong?  One bar?  One beat?  Just after you realized you
   wanted help?
 * How many people would you have liked the help from?  Which one(s)?
   Where were they at the time?
And report to the list.  I added "...  It is tempting to speculate on
what other people want, or should want, but it's more valuable to hear
what you did want.  I'll bet we see some interesting patterns."

I provided two examples of the kind of answer I had in mind (which I
collected by following my own instructions: going to class with those
questions in mind and noticing whatever happened).  I asked this of
both the Scottish and English country dance discussion lists, and this
note summarizes the replies from both lists.

One person answered the questions as asked.  Four others reported what
help they actually received, and said it was welcome.  That answers
the question, but misses the opportunity to discover other forms of
help which people would like, but which no one gives.  (I'm not saying
that there are such forms, only that we won't discover them if we only
pay attention to what we get.)

Including my responses and counting both what was wanted and what was
given, there were 16 responses.  All learning modes are represented --
sight, sound and feeling -- and the sample contains more than one
instance in which the other dancers adapted rather than correcting
(!).  When tactile help was mentioned, it was always from someone
already touching the reporter, so the information came from a change
in the quality of touch, not from a new touch.  The time periods
mentioned span a bar or less on either side of the start of the
figure.  Most responses mention just one helper (but then most state
what the reporter's partner did).

I had hoped we could conclude something from this survey -- confirm or
refute things that we now just guess, or learn something completely
new.  But with this sample size I'm not comfortable drawing any con-
clusions.  Still, this was interesting, and I thank all who answered.

Many readers volunteered other information.  11 people made generali-
zations about the kind of help they like, without reporting on a
specific instance at which they noticed the things I asked.  Of those,
5 prefer a visual cue, 6 prefer an auditory one, and none prefer
touch.  5 people made generalizations about what they dislike: none
dislike visual cues, 3 dislike auditory cues, and 2 dislike touch.  5
people made generalizations about what other people like, and 2 made
generalizations about what other people dislike.  1 person reported a
generalization that someone else made about what other people like,
and 3 people reported how they helped someone else.  None of these has
the immediacy I asked for, so I don't draw any conclusions from them
either.
 
Some comments from the reports are worth note:
 * This sample is probably biased toward experienced dancers, because
   of who's on the list.
 * Helping can easily become a habit.
 * Unwanted help will sometimes be offered.
 * Big cues (in any mode) destroy the beauty of the dance.
 * We sometimes prefer not to be helped.
 * It is sometimes useful to let it go.
Those last two are the same, but from different points of view.
Letting mistakes happen was mentioned favorably in 7 notes, and never
mentioned unfavorably (though there were notes in which I read an
assumption that we do not want mistakes to happen).

This is a good time to close a loop.  This discussion started when
Norah Link quoted Ron Wallace as suggesting that we not help.  I said
I didn't like the way that felt, and mentioned briefly what I do.  It
now seems likely that Ron (who is a superb teacher) had in mind some-
thing like my guideline #3: if you try to help and it's still going to
break, let it.

A few mentioned that the _type_ of mistake matters.  This is surely
relevant.  Combining the posts and my own ideas, I'll propose these
factors:
  1. Do I want help?  There are reasons why the answer may be Yes or
     No, depending on the both context and the culture.
  2. What is my level of orientation?  Am I asleep, alert, or
     overloaded?
  3. How early is it: before the mistake, into it but soon enough to
     fix it, too late to fix it.
This leaves open the question of how the rest of us know these
factors.  That's interesting, but here we're just listing the
categories.

Again, my thanks to all who responded.

	    >>> Note new email address <<<
Bruce Hamilton			Agilent Laboratories  MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
agilent.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:05:52 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:01:42 -0800
From: Laurie Buchanan <laurieb-AT-
cirl.uoregon.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Earthly Delights
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03102803b45f49ec2198-AT-
[128.223.40.51]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Can anyone tell me more about this band's recordings?  I ran into their
page on the web while trying to track down a source for Pyewackett
recordings mentioned here awhile back.  They are from Canberra , Australia.
Ian Blake (once of Pyewackett, thus the link) is in it, but more
interesting to this list, perhaps, is John Garden, founder of the band.
The picture shows him holding a hurdy gurdy.  Here is a quote from his bio:

"John Garden has an interest in many styles of music and dance. From 1980
to 1986 he danced with Irish, Scottish, Finnish, Australian Colonial and
International dance groups in Canberra... From mid 1986 to 1987 he learnt
Irish, English country, American contra, Cajun, Tex-Mex, Vintage and
Scandinavian dancing in the US and was honoured to receive a scholarship to
the Mendicino Dance Camp in California. Upon his return to Canberra in 1987
John started 'Dancing in the Park' (weekly in summer) and in 1988 he
started 'Country Dancing' (monthly in autumn, winter and spring).  The two
series brought hitherto little heard musicians and little known dance forms
before the Canberra public. He co-ordinated these series for 4 and 6 years
respectively... In 1991 he wrote and published A Country Dance Companion -
a book which included a substantial history of social dance in the western
European tradition and notes on 180 dances and 120 tunes... In 1995 John
founded 'Earthly Delights'..."

The band as a 2CD set out, but the page doesn't list the tunes.  Anyone?
Also does anyone remember him from Mendocino 12 years ago (my first Mendo
was '89)?

Laurie (in research mode)


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:43:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:43:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: an experiment
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911222043.OAA11758-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

   One perennial subject on this list and with all the dance groups I've
had contact with, is ways to improve the dancing of the group as a whole.
As a result of one of these discussions within our local English Country
dance group I decided to try an experiment.  It is my belief that one way
in which people's dancing improves is when they have to think about the
dance they are doing.  To this end, and also since it seems to be a worthy
long range goal, I decided to try a dance with no prompting at our monthly
English dance this past weekend.  My hope was that the dancers would have
to be more aware of their part in the dance and that of the other dancers
around them and that this would cause/enable them to anticipate figures
and be better able to help anyone who ran into a problem.  My background
is from contra dancing where, though the caller aims to stop calling after
a bit and just let the dancers dance to the music, there is always that
crutch of prompting present at least at the start of the dance.  This has
several benefits, for example it helps people who are dancing for the
first time do more challenging dances than they could otherwise, but it
also has some drawbacks in that the dancers may come to rely on the calling
and not learn the dance as well during the walk-through.

   Our group last Saturday was of a typical composition, several experienced
dancers, some new people experiencing their first taste of country dancing,
and everyone else somewhere in between.  I chose Jack's Maggot as the dance
to try this with.  It might not have been the best choice, but it was the
best one from the list of dances I had given the band back before I decided
to try this.  I feel that it wasn't a bad choice though because it isn't
a trivial dance, and thus is a fair test, but it isn't an extremely complex
dance either.  The heys in the A part are a bit tricky, especially for new
dancers, but the rest of the dance is pretty straight-forward.  I told the
dancers up front that we would walk through the dance, but there would be
no prompting.  Hopefully this made them pay more attention during the
walk-through.  I then taught the dance, emphasising the connection between
the music and the dance figures by having the band play the parts as we
walked through them.  We demonstrated the heys and then walked the dance
through twice.  Then I had them go back to original places, reminded them
what the first figure would be and then had the band start the music.

   While a few of them becamed confused a time or two, for the most part
it worked out very well.  I was very pleased with the results and I think
the dancers enjoyed it as well.  I need to ask around and get some feedback.
I intend to try this again, perhaps choosing one or two dances each time
to be done with no prompting.  Hopefully this will increase the dancers
ability to generalize patterns from various dances and thus be better able
to learn new ones and make them more self-reliant and able to anticipate
upcoming figures and handle any problems that arise.  I think I'll also
try a no-walk-through dance.  Perhaps a standard USA dance would be a good
one to do with just a talk-through.

   It's too soon to say how much, if any effect this experiment will have,
but it worked out very well and was well worth trying.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:50:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:53:17 -0500
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Renndance in Cambridge (MA) tommorrow (11/23)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v0421010ab45f5d727c10-AT-
[24.128.25.60]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <199911221943.AA164649814-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>

Several members of the Waytes of Carolingia will be playing for a 
Renaissance Dance tommorrow evening, with Ken Pierce teaching and 
leading dances.  We expect to do Bransles, Galliards, pavan(s) 
(maybe) and Allemande (maybe), much of it from Arbeau, and to work on 
one of the Furiosos from Nobilta di Dame, by Caroso (1600).  The 
Waytes are a mixed consort and expect tommorrow's grouping to be 
strings and recorders.

Admission to the dance is by donation ($5 recommended); no previous 
experience required, some dances are easy, some are hard, some 
energetic, some relaxing (or at least, *less* energetic), all will be 
taught.  Period refreshments will be served.

The dance will be held at the Old Cambridge Baptist Church, outside 
Harvard Square.  The dance is co-sponsored by Eclectic Enterprises 
and the Country Dance Society, Boston Centre.  It is part of a series 
of 4th Tuesday dances running through May 2000.

We will try to strike a balance between workshop and social occasion, 
but on the whole, will probably lean in the direction of 
workshop-like.

For directions or more details, call or write: (617) 964-7684 or 
eclectic-AT-
mit.edu.

--Mike Bergman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:54:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:55:15 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: My book of dance cards
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b45f17a4e2cc-AT-
[140.186.55.51]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Some people have been interested in my book of dance cards.  There are
about 500 dances in it now.

So this is just a brief message to let people know that I'm having a few
printed and if anyone wants one, it's $15 + s&h and please email me at
elf-AT-
cape.com.

Thanks.

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetlecats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:40:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:39:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: St. Louis Holiday Grand Dance (Dec. 4)
To: English Dance Maillist <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.991123003128.3449E-100000-AT-
crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Hi folks:

The St. Louis English Country Dancers' Holiday Grand Dance happens at 8pm
on Saturday, Dec. 4th, 1999, at the Monday Club at Maple and Cedar in
Webster Groves, MO, just outside of St. Louis City. Calling by Peter
Wollenberg and special guests; music by the Original (Modified) Speckled
Band. Fancy dress (your definition) is encouraged but not required. 

For more information and/or directions, please e-mail me at:

pstamler-AT-
aol.com

(a separate account, for reasons too complicated to explain), or e-mail 
our President, Rebecca Taylor, at:

rjtaylor-AT-
artsci.wustl.edu

Or call me at 314-664-9207. A splendid time is guaranteed for all.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:47:57 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:47:51 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Eph Weiss.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b460c9cf12e4-AT-
[140.186.55.138]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Anybody got Eph Weiss' email address handy.  It's not in the CDS list and I
need to contact him before tomorrow.

thanks

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetlecats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:26:16 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:26:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Three Rusty Swords
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <0.b8a9cd42.2572cdb8-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Greetings All:

My housemate just received an album titled "October Song" by The House Band.  
The first tune on the third cut is titled "Three Rusty Swords" and he swears 
he has danced to it somewhere.  It certainly *sounds* like it could be an 
ECD, but it's not in Barnes -- at least not under that name.  Does anyone 
know this album and/or the tune?

Reine Wonite
still (for the moment -- watch this space) in Chico, CA
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:44:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:43:57 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: English Dance Week 1999: Web Page of Dances, etc., Now Available
To: ECD Listserv - Posts <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991128150943.00982e30-AT-
209.183.254.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Dear friends in the English country dance community.

I volunteered during English dance week to put up a web page to chronicle 
the dances we enjoyed at this Summer at Pinewoods Camp.  The task has been 
done for a few weeks; while awaiting the completion of arrangements to post 
the info on CDSS's web server, I've decided to make the info available 
http://www.just.net/~roger/eweek99/.  In addition to dances enjoyed during 
evening dance parties and those taught in classes, this rendition also 
includes a copy of the spoof on Colin Hume's Unrequited Love, performed by 
campers for the enjoyment of all on skit night; reproductions of the daily 
schedule and parts of the announcement, which incorporates bios on camp 
staff.  (An update on the url will be posted here if/when the web page is 
moved.)

Preparing this web page was a lesson in the 'folk process:'  First, I 
didn't know what I was getting into!  The task appeared simple on the 
surface as Susan Murrow had compiled and volunteered to share lists of 
dance taught during classes; Warren Anderson artfully prepared lists of 
evening dances.  Susan kindly typed all of her info into text for 
incorporation into the web page.  However, the lists of evening dances had 
scattered to the four winds.  It took quite some time to recover this info 
and camp historian Neil Kelley's written history helped fill-in some 
gaps.  My decision to include the spoof of Unrequited Love took some time 
to realize and led to many enjoyable conversations via phone, snail and 
Email when I sought permissions for authors, e.g., I enjoyed Valerie 
Websters recollections of dancing in the Pump Room in Bath.

I am indebted to many folk for making this effort possible.  I'll save 
space here and refer readers to the Credits at 
http://www.just.net/~roger/eweek99/#credits.  I must add that the few years 
I've spent dancing have added immeasurable joy to my life and let this 
small effort serve as a reflection of that and as thanks to the dance 
community for making this possible.

Cheers,


-- Roger
_  _  ________________ _  ____________________________________________
  /__) _,___,  _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: Roger-AT-
just.net
          _/_               www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html
_______ (/____________________________________________________________
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:47:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:53:39 -0800
From: Mary Luckhardt <mary-AT-
luckhardt.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Three Rusty Swords
To: ECD List <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <E11sD68-0005mw-00-AT-
mongoose.slip.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The tune is Knives and Forks, though the B part has undergone enough 
changes to justify the name change.  I have no idea which might be the 
original and which the variation.

October Song is probably my favorite album by this band, but all of them 
are very good.  (I have at least 6 of them.)  This is one of my "can't 
miss" bands.  If they play your town, go!  They are 4 English musicians 
with Celtic credentials, playing folk music traditional and modern from 
all over.  Watch out for the bombarde!

They often have an ECD tune in their repertoire: Grimstock on _Another 
Setting_, Joy After Sorrow on _Pacific_.

Mary Luckhardt

On 11/28/99 10:26 AM Reine Wonite wrote:

>Greetings All:
>
>My housemate just received an album titled "October Song" by The House 
>Band.  
>The first tune on the third cut is titled "Three Rusty Swords" and he swears 
>he has danced to it somewhere.  It certainly *sounds* like it could be an 
>ECD, but it's not in Barnes -- at least not under that name.  Does anyone 
>know this album and/or the tune?
>
>Reine Wonite
>still (for the moment -- watch this space) in Chico, CA
>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 06:56:54 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:56:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan Pearl <pearl-AT-
sw.stratus.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Three Rusty Swords
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911291456.JAA12528-AT-
alta.sw.stratus.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The cut is labelled "Three Rusty Swords/The Dusty Miller".  The sample
on Amazon.com is an arrangement of "Knives and Forks", which we do, indeed,
dance to.  It may be medleyed with Dusty Miller, which we do, indeed, dance
to, but the sample didn't contain any of that tune.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:14:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:13:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Three Rusty Swords
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991129181353.8440.rocketmail-AT-
web2901.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT



--- Mary Luckhardt <mary-AT-
luckhardt.com> wrote:
> The tune is Knives and Forks, though the B part has undergone
> enough 
> changes to justify the name change.  I have no idea which might be
> the 
> original and which the variation.
> 

So instead of beating their rusty swords into ploughs, they beat them
into knives and forks?  Sounds like a good move.

=====
NOWELL Sing We Clear, A Pageant of Midwinter Carols
Traditional songs, music and dance of the Christmas Season, including Mummers' Play
featuring John Roberts, Tony Barrand, Fred Breunig and Andy Davis
Sunday, December 5, 1999  3:00 p.m. in New Haven, CT
St. Thomas's Episcopal Church, 830 Whitney Ave.
Tickets: $14.00 in advance, $16.00 at the door, Children 12 & under: $8.00
http://www.ctnow.com/Groups-branfordfolk
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:56:30 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:54:39 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: English Dance Week 1999: Web Page of Dances, etc., Now Available
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130307b468a67c6ca2-AT-
[140.186.55.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Incredible job.  How long will that be up?

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetlecats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:19:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:18:29 -0500
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
loc.gov>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <s8439672.080-AT-
loc.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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re:
  sharp vs. shaw siding:
  maybe this has been brought up before, but i'm sorta wondering why
folks have started to use different terminology for so-called "sharp"
and "shaw" siding. in particular, curly siding, or whatever folks
manage to use for sharp siding, is awkward. of course i know that they
didn't invent these moves themselves, but certainly they popularized
them, and having a term that's instantly recognizable is a nice thing.
who cares if it's "accurate," anyway? and just what IS accurate?
callers keep stumbling over the terms because they're trying to be PC
and they have to think twice every time they teach. among lots of
other reasons i can think of for continuing to use "sharp siding" is
the fact that many people don't have the slightest idea who sharp WAS,
and here's a chance to tie him right in. don't flame me, i know i'm
only a dilettante, but i'd like to see what other folks think....
  sharon "cecil WHO?" mckinley, and not an official dance
terminologist for any government agency  
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:49:06 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:49:01 -0600 (CST)
From: j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911301549.JAA18585-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sharon A McKinley writes:
> 
>   sharp vs. shaw siding:
>   maybe this has been brought up before, but i'm sorta wondering why
> folks have started to use different terminology for so-called "sharp"
> and "shaw" siding. in particular, curly siding, or whatever folks
> manage to use for sharp siding, is awkward. of course i know that they
> didn't invent these moves themselves, but certainly they popularized
> them, and having a term that's instantly recognizable is a nice thing.
> who cares if it's "accurate," anyway? and just what IS accurate?
> callers keep stumbling over the terms because they're trying to be PC
> and they have to think twice every time they teach. among lots of
> other reasons i can think of for continuing to use "sharp siding" is
> the fact that many people don't have the slightest idea who sharp WAS,
> and here's a chance to tie him right in. don't flame me, i know i'm
> only a dilettante, but i'd like to see what other folks think....

   I think one reason for using the terms "curvy siding" and "shoulder
siding" or "siding to a line" as opposed to Sharp and Shaw siding, is that
they are descriptive of the figures whereas "Sharp" and "Shaw" are just
labels which have no meaning in and of themselves.  This is especially true
when teaching new and inexperienced dancers.

   I have no real problem with either one, but I do feel it is good to
use unambiguous terms whenever possible.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:31:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:14:41 +0000
From: John Meechan <johnm-AT-
jma-nuneaton.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000201bf3b4f$f0319660$ea15883e-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <s8439672.080-AT-
loc.gov>

The reason for differentiating is simple - they are different things! To
specify which one to do could limit the amount of times you bump into your
partner etc. If callers didn't stumble over these terms it is possible that
the dancers may stumble over each other.

I would like to challenge the assumption that they didn't invent these
terms/figures. I don't know whether they did or not, however they are their
interpretations of Playford's instructions.

I don't think it is important to know who Cecil Sharp is, more what the
figures of the dance are, however, it is nice to know more about what you
are doing if it is to be more than aerobic exercise.

I believe that C# realised, at some stage after publication, that he had got
it wrong but felt that 'curly' sidings were too established to change and
might result in dancers stumbling over each other!

John Meechan
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
loc.gov>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 2:18 PM
Subject: sharp vs. shaw


> re:
>   sharp vs. shaw siding:
>   maybe this has been brought up before, but i'm sorta wondering why
> folks have started to use different terminology for so-called "sharp"
> and "shaw" siding. in particular, curly siding, or whatever folks
> manage to use for sharp siding, is awkward. of course i know that they
> didn't invent these moves themselves, but certainly they popularized
> them, and having a term that's instantly recognizable is a nice thing.
> who cares if it's "accurate," anyway? and just what IS accurate?
> callers keep stumbling over the terms because they're trying to be PC
> and they have to think twice every time they teach. among lots of
> other reasons i can think of for continuing to use "sharp siding" is
> the fact that many people don't have the slightest idea who sharp WAS,
> and here's a chance to tie him right in. don't flame me, i know i'm
> only a dilettante, but i'd like to see what other folks think....
>   sharon "cecil WHO?" mckinley, and not an official dance
> terminologist for any government agency
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:33:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:33:19 -0500 (EST)
From: julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.991130112323.6717A-100000-AT-
world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Re siding:

From the standpoint of accuracy (and for those who care), Sharp invented
his siding because he didn't know exactly what the term meant.  When
18th-c. sources came to light, showing exactly what it was at that time,
Sharp attempted to teach that to his group (it was, incidentally, totally
symmetrical, which Sharp's was not). They would have none of it, so he
gave up. This is Sharp's own story.

Shaw's siding was not his invention, but his understanding of the 18th-c.
sources that came to light in this century.

There is yet another authentic siding, in Italian sources of the late
16th-c. We have no way of knowing if this kind was ever used in country
dances, though we know of Italian influences in England.   This kind is
the most flirtatious of the three.

Using a term like 'inline' is not good, because it concentrates on the
geometry of the figure, instead of its flirtatiousness!

I personally would like to see Sharp's siding discontinued except for
those dances created after Sharp.

When you say "who cares," you assume your attitute extends to all.  it
doesn't (no flaming intended, just information).

Julia Sutton






================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:43:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:40:26 -0500
From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
together.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3843FDFA.5490-AT-
together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <199911301549.JAA18585-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>

First, this is not Sharp VERSUS anyone.

Second, Sharp interpreted the Playford movement incorrectly at first, 
but he invented a quite delightful figure which was known as "siding" 
from about 1912 onwards. This became so established that when Sharp 
finally figured out what the siding in Playford really was (which he did 
before Pat Shuldham-Shaw was born) it was too late to change.

Third, I proposed in a recent biography of Sharp that we should use 
"siding" for what we have done in the EFDSS and CDSS tradition for more 
than eighty years, and use "side-by-side" for the shoulder to shoulder 
movement. This seems so unobjectionable that it should command ready 
assent (except from those with some other agenda)and is descriptive 
enough to be intelligible to most.

Fourth, Sharp's difficulty is somewhat surprising since he knew that the 
basic figures of Playford set dances were derived from the 
Morris--forward and back a double corrsponds to foot up, siding (that 
is, side by side) with side by side, arming with half-gyp, and the hey 
(country dance style) with the Morris hey. The latter figure was the 
most potent and magical figure in the Morris and was changed slightly 
when adopted for country dancing--which is USUALLY done either by men 
and then by women separately, or, if done simultaneously, is NOT done as 
a mirror hey (which is the Morris form).

Please, siding and side-by-side. JB
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:15:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:05:45 -0800
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com>
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <38443C29.7F12-AT-
erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.991130112323.6717A-100000-AT-
world.std.com>

julia s sutton wrote:
> There is yet another authentic siding, in Italian sources of the late
> 16th-c. We have no way of knowing if this kind was ever used in country
> dances, though we know of Italian influences in England.   This kind is
> the most flirtatious of the three.
>
	Well, I'm curious; Julia, could you describe this third kind?
	Mike O'Connor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:44:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:41:40 -0500
From: Patricia Ruggiero <ruggierop-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Italian form of siding
To: English Dance <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <000001bf3b5a$288ce140$8ed4bfa8-AT-
g9tfz.MITRE.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Julia Sutton wrote: 

>There is yet another authentic siding, in Italian sources of the late
16th-c. We have no way of knowing if this kind was ever used in country
dances, though we know of Italian influences in England.   This kind is
the most flirtatious of the three.>

Julia, would you be so kind as to describe this?

Many thanks,

Pat Ruggiero

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:25:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:30:09 -0600
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <010801bf3b60$ef7cdca0$4222a3d1-AT-
gloria>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

If we're going to consider giving two distinct names to Sharp
& Shaw Sidings, please let them be short, descriptive, and
distinctive.

Let SIDING be used for Shaw-style siding since this style is
recognized as the more historically accurate, and because the
term draws the visual image of going side-to-side.

Let SWISH be used for Sharp-style siding because that's what a
long skirt feels like it does while arching around and back.

Just my $.02
Gloria Krusemeyer

-----Original Message-----
From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
together.net>
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
<ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw


First, this is not Sharp VERSUS anyone.

Second, Sharp interpreted the Playford movement incorrectly at
first,
but he invented a quite delightful figure which was known as
"siding"
from about 1912 onwards. This became so established that when
Sharp
finally figured out what the siding in Playford really was
(which he did
before Pat Shuldham-Shaw was born) it was too late to change.

Third, I proposed in a recent biography of Sharp that we
should use
"siding" for what we have done in the EFDSS and CDSS tradition
for more
than eighty years, and use "side-by-side" for the shoulder to
shoulder
movement. This seems so unobjectionable that it should command
ready
assent (except from those with some other agenda)and is
descriptive
enough to be intelligible to most.

Fourth, Sharp's difficulty is somewhat surprising since he
knew that the
basic figures of Playford set dances were derived from the
Morris--forward and back a double corrsponds to foot up,
siding (that
is, side by side) with side by side, arming with half-gyp, and
the hey
(country dance style) with the Morris hey. The latter figure
was the
most potent and magical figure in the Morris and was changed
slightly
when adopted for country dancing--which is USUALLY done either
by men
and then by women separately, or, if done simultaneously, is
NOT done as
a mirror hey (which is the Morris form).

Please, siding and side-by-side. JB


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:46:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:43:51 -0800
From: Norman Bradley <normanb-AT-
pryanksters.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: My book of dance cards
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.1.19991130104339.0093fbc0-AT-
sun.he.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I am intrested in obtaining a copy. Please sent information.

Norman Bradley
Merri Pryanksters English Country Dance

P.S. I'd be intrested in your impression of our web pages. They are at
<http://www.pryanksters.org>

At 12:55 PM 11/22/99, you wrote:
>Some people have been interested in my book of dance cards.  There are
>about 500 dances in it now.
>
>So this is just a brief message to let people know that I'm having a few
>printed and if anyone wants one, it's $15 + s&h and please email me at
>elf-AT-
cape.com.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Emily L. Ferguson
>elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
>New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
>Beetlecats on the web at:
>http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:52:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:47:54 +0000
From: John Meechan <johnm-AT-
jma-nuneaton.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002701bf3b63$6a7ad860$3641883e-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <010801bf3b60$ef7cdca0$4222a3d1-AT-
gloria>

I'm afraid SWISH doesn't mean anything to me - perhaps because I'm a man and
tend not to wear dresses.

John Meechan

----- Original Message -----
From: Gloria Krusemeyer <gloria-AT-
microassist.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw


> If we're going to consider giving two distinct names to Sharp
> & Shaw Sidings, please let them be short, descriptive, and
> distinctive.
>
> Let SIDING be used for Shaw-style siding since this style is
> recognized as the more historically accurate, and because the
> term draws the visual image of going side-to-side.
>
> Let SWISH be used for Sharp-style siding because that's what a
> long skirt feels like it does while arching around and back.
>
> Just my $.02
> Gloria Krusemeyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
together.net>
> To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
> <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
> Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
>
>
> First, this is not Sharp VERSUS anyone.
>
> Second, Sharp interpreted the Playford movement incorrectly at
> first,
> but he invented a quite delightful figure which was known as
> "siding"
> from about 1912 onwards. This became so established that when
> Sharp
> finally figured out what the siding in Playford really was
> (which he did
> before Pat Shuldham-Shaw was born) it was too late to change.
>
> Third, I proposed in a recent biography of Sharp that we
> should use
> "siding" for what we have done in the EFDSS and CDSS tradition
> for more
> than eighty years, and use "side-by-side" for the shoulder to
> shoulder
> movement. This seems so unobjectionable that it should command
> ready
> assent (except from those with some other agenda)and is
> descriptive
> enough to be intelligible to most.
>
> Fourth, Sharp's difficulty is somewhat surprising since he
> knew that the
> basic figures of Playford set dances were derived from the
> Morris--forward and back a double corrsponds to foot up,
> siding (that
> is, side by side) with side by side, arming with half-gyp, and
> the hey
> (country dance style) with the Morris hey. The latter figure
> was the
> most potent and magical figure in the Morris and was changed
> slightly
> when adopted for country dancing--which is USUALLY done either
> by men
> and then by women separately, or, if done simultaneously, is
> NOT done as
> a mirror hey (which is the Morris form).
>
> Please, siding and side-by-side. JB
>
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:22:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:21:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan Pearl <pearl-AT-
sw.stratus.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911301921.OAA16099-AT-
alta.sw.stratus.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Scott Higgs uses "Swirl Siding".
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:39:43 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:35:56 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Uh, Oh! Re: English Dance Week 1999: Web Page of Dances, etc., Now Available
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991130142821.00a504b0-AT-
209.183.254.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_lcqMW6gAUY4Fys2bA0ZYnw)"


--Boundary_(ID_lcqMW6gAUY4Fys2bA0ZYnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

At 03:43 PM 11/28/1999 , you wrote:
>Dear friends in the English country dance community.
>
>I volunteered during English dance week to put up a web page to chronicle the dances we enjoyed at this Summer at Pinewoods Camp.  The task has been done for a few weeks; while awaiting the completion of arrangements to post the info on CDSS's web server, I've decided to make the info available http://www.just.net/~roger/eweek99/. 

[snip]

Several readers have contacted me about not being able to access the above site: we (that's the collective AND imperial We) are getting an error that says a password is needed.  I can't either!  Now the error reads:
   The requested URL /~roger/eweek99/ was not found on this server

Patience is in order: my friend who provides the space gratis, is re-configuring his server and thus things are in a state of flux (See footnote (1).)  I expect things will be fixed momentarily or maybe tomorrow.  Hang-in there.

/Roger
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Pick your favorite definition from the following (world-wide wait
    is not among them)

flux (fluks)  n., v. <fluxed, flux-ing>
               n. 
                   1.  a flowing or flow.
                   2.  the flowing in of the tide.
                   3.  continuous change or movement: Our plans 
                        are in a state of flux.
                   4.  a.  the rate of flow of fluid, particles, 
                             or energy.
                        b.  a quantity expressing the strength 
                             of a field of force in a given area.
                   5.  a.  a substance used to refine metals by 
                             combining with impurities to form a 
                             molten mixture that can be readily 
                             removed.
                        b.  a substance used to prevent 
                             oxidation of fused metal, as in 
                             soldering.
                   6.  an abnormal discharge of liquid matter 
                        from the bowels.
               v.t. 
                   7.  to melt; make fluid.
                   8.  to fuse by the use of flux.
               v.i. 
                   9.  to flow.
              [1350-1400; ME < L fluxus flow, discharge, later 
              var. of fluctus; see FLUCTUATE ]

--Boundary_(ID_lcqMW6gAUY4Fys2bA0ZYnw)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<html>
At 03:43 PM 11/28/1999 , you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Dear friends in the English country dance
community.<br>
<br>
I volunteered during English dance week to put up a web page to chronicle
the dances we enjoyed at this Summer at Pinewoods Camp.&nbsp; The task
has been done for a few weeks; while awaiting the completion of
arrangements to post the info on CDSS's web server, I've decided to make
the info available
<a href="http://www.just.net/~roger/eweek99/.%A0" eudora="autourl">http://www.just.net/~roger/eweek99/.
</a></blockquote><br>
[snip]<br>
<br>
Several readers have contacted me about not being able to access the
above site: we (that's the collective AND imperial We) are getting an
error that says a password is needed.&nbsp; I can't either!&nbsp; Now the
error reads:<br>
&nbsp; The requested URL /~roger/eweek99/ was not found on this
server<br>
<br>
Patience is in order: my friend who provides the space gratis, is
re-configuring his server and thus things are in a state of flux (See
footnote (1).)&nbsp; I expect things will be fixed momentarily or maybe
tomorrow.&nbsp; Hang-in there.<br>
<br>
/Roger<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
(1) Pick your favorite definition from the following (world-wide
wait<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;  is not among them)<br>
<br>
flux (fluks)&nbsp; n., v. &lt;fluxed, flux-ing&gt;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
n. <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
1.&nbsp; a flowing or flow.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
2.&nbsp; the flowing in of the tide.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
3.&nbsp; continuous change or movement: Our plans <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
are in a state of flux.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
4.&nbsp; a.&nbsp; the rate of flow of fluid, particles, <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
or energy.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
b.&nbsp; a quantity expressing the strength <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
of a field of force in a given area.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
5.&nbsp; a.&nbsp; a substance used to refine metals by <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
combining with impurities to form a <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
molten mixture that can be readily <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
removed.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
b.&nbsp; a substance used to prevent <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
oxidation of fused metal, as in <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
soldering.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
6.&nbsp; an abnormal discharge of liquid matter <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
from the bowels.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
v.t. <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
7.&nbsp; to melt; make fluid.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
8.&nbsp; to fuse by the use of flux.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
v.i. <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
9.&nbsp; to flow.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
[1350-1400; ME &lt; L fluxus flow, discharge, later <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
var. of fluctus; see FLUCTUATE ]</html>

--Boundary_(ID_lcqMW6gAUY4Fys2bA0ZYnw)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:56:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:55:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.9911301455430.92758-100000-AT-
gnu.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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nOn Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Dan Pearl wrote:

> Scott Higgs uses "Swirl Siding".

for which one? 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:57:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:43:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.991130114128.25495B-100000-AT-
crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, John Meechan wrote:

> I'm afraid SWISH doesn't mean anything to me - perhaps because I'm a man and
> tend not to wear dresses.

It does have a meaning to men in the gay community; as a verb, it means to 
act "swishy", or outrageously effeminate. As a noun, it means someone who 
acts that way.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:51:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:51:13 -0500 (EST)
From: julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.991130154902.8655A-100000-AT-
world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Re 16th-c. siding:

I'll be glad to show it to anyone interested. The original text is a bit
confusing, but I think I've figured it out.  We could set up a date
easily. Let me know what you think.

Julia


On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Michael J. O'Connor wrote:

> julia s sutton wrote:
> > There is yet another authentic siding, in Italian sources of the late
> > 16th-c. We have no way of knowing if this kind was ever used in country
> > dances, though we know of Italian influences in England.   This kind is
> > the most flirtatious of the three.
> >
> 	Well, I'm curious; Julia, could you describe this third kind?
> 	Mike O'Connor
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:52:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:51:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JIY5QQDIPU91W9EK-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Folks --

If we had a FAQ, this discussion would go in it.  (However, if Julia describes
Italian siding, that will be new information.)

Brief summary of usual arguments:

  "Sharp" and "Shaw" siding don't describe the movements, and also aren't
   particularly historically useful.  [Further, some people feel that the
   antonym of "sharp" is "dull."]

   Counter-argument: Most of the names aren't particularly descriptive so
   one more non-descriptive one doesn't matter.  This is the way _I_ learned
   it and it will confuse me to change it.

Previously-encountered proposals for descriptive names:

   "Sharp" - crescent siding, swirl siding, siding (as distinct from 'sides'),
   over-and-back siding, crossover siding, half-gyp.

   "Shaw" - sides, into-line siding, shoulder-to-shoulder siding, Playford
   siding, straight siding.


My personal choice:
   
  Where I am, Sharp siding is the default, so I say "side" or "side over and 
  back" for that, and "side right shoulder to right shoulder" for the other,
  and this usually works, although someone will likely ask me if I want 
  "Sharp" or "Shaw" if I've got an  experienced group.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:59:42 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:02:16 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw vs. morris
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <01bf3b76$2e87e1a0$cbeaadce-AT-
default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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John Bremer sez:

>>Fourth, Sharp's difficulty is somewhat surprising since he knew that the
basic figures of Playford set dances were derived from the
Morris<<

What's the historical backup for this theory?  I've also heard exactly the
opposite, and have wondered which was true, or if they both derived from
something else.  (Yes, I realize we recently had a thread about Who Invented
ECD, and this is a variant of it, and we'll probably wind up with Julia
Sutton patiently explaining for the zillionth time that no one knows, but I
thought I'd ask anyway, because after all, the last conversation didn't have
the morris angle and what is the ECD list for if not to minutely examine
every possible angle, as a way of passing time in between dances?)

Marian Phillips
San Francisco

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:20:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:05:16 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Uh, Oh! Re: English Dance Week 1999: Web Page of Dances, etc.,Now Available
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <012001bf3b78$34759a60$d1e1490c-AT-
pavilion>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <4.2.0.58.19991130142821.00a504b0-AT-
209.183.254.10>

Interesting - I was able to access it from the first time you posted the
info and still can - I'm using Internet Explorer as a browser if that
elps  - enjoyed the page by the way.
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 1:35 PM
Subject: Uh, Oh! Re: English Dance Week 1999: Web Page of Dances, etc.,Now
Available


At 03:43 PM 11/28/1999 , you wrote:

Dear friends in the English country dance community.

I volunteered during English dance week to put up a web page to chronicle
the dances we enjoyed at this Summer at Pinewoods Camp.  The task has been
done for a few weeks; while awaiting the completion of arrangements to post
the info on CDSS's web server, I've decided to make the info available
http://www.just.net/~roger/eweek99/.

[snip]

Several readers have contacted me about not being able to access the above
site: we (that's the collective AND imperial We) are getting an error that
says a password is needed.  I can't either!  Now the error reads:
  The requested URL /~roger/eweek99/ was not found on this server

Patience is in order: my friend who provides the space gratis, is
re-configuring his server and thus things are in a state of flux (See
footnote (1).)  I expect things will be fixed momentarily or maybe tomorrow.
Hang-in there.

/Roger
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Pick your favorite definition from the following (world-wide wait
   is not among them)

flux (fluks)  n., v. <fluxed, flux-ing>
              n.
                  1.  a flowing or flow.
                  2.  the flowing in of the tide.
                  3.  continuous change or movement: Our plans
                       are in a state of flux.
                  4.  a.  the rate of flow of fluid, particles,
                            or energy.
                       b.  a quantity expressing the strength
                            of a field of force in a given area.
                  5.  a.  a substance used to refine metals by
                            combining with impurities to form a
                            molten mixture that can be readily
                            removed.
                       b.  a substance used to prevent
                            oxidation of fused metal, as in
                            soldering.
                  6.  an abnormal discharge of liquid matter
                       from the bowels.
              v.t.
                  7.  to melt; make fluid.
                  8.  to fuse by the use of flux.
              v.i.
                  9.  to flow.
             [1350-1400; ME < L fluxus flow, discharge, later
             var. of fluctus; see FLUCTUATE ]

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:23:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:24:40 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: gyp
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b01b469efb46ec5-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

>half-gyp.

when did the term "gyp" come into use?  Does it just mean "gypsy"?

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:46:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:41:59 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: My book of dance cards
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130301b469aeba1529-AT-
[140.186.55.170]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

>I am intrested in obtaining a copy. Please sent information.
>
>Norman Bradley
>Merri Pryanksters English Country Dance
>
>P.S. I'd be intrested in your impression of our web pages. They are at
><http://www.pryanksters.org>
>


Long day.  Wiped.  5 hours in front of a hot color copier.

Will look at the site later tonight.

the book is $17 incl. shipping.  So if you send a check to me at P. O. Box
453, Woods Hole, MA 02543, I'll send you a book.

Emily L. Ferguson
elf-AT-
cape.com  508-563-6822
New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography
Beetlecats on the web at:
http://www.capecod.net/sqtg/nebcba/results/99champs.html


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:57:24 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: gyp
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JIY8L7WEHU91W9UB-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Emma Rushton inquires:

  when did the term "gyp" come into use?  

Don't know.  We get it from morris dancing - various traditions name figures
half-gyp or whole-gyp.  This wouldn't have entered scholarly discourse until
after 1899, also via C. Sharp.

  Does it just mean "gypsy"?

Apparently.  All the whole-gyp figures I'm familiar with involve two dancers
circling each other and returning to the starting place, which is pretty 
gypsy like.  Half-gyp, curiously, recapitulates the Sharp-siding and
Shaw-siding differences; some traditions (and interpretations vary within 
traditions, for that matter) do half-gyp into line; some cross over into the
partner's place and come back (although I can't remember the name of a
tradition that does the latter, I can remember the feeling of doing it in some
workshop).

-- Alan




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:12:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:06:52 +0000
From: Michael Barraclough <michael.barraclough-AT-
tgis.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <NDBBKBIDKLKAPPCIHODLEEGBCCAA.michael.barraclough-AT-
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Julia - I would be interested too.  What part of the world are you thinking
of doing this or could we be use technology and have a demonstration in
front of a web cam so that everyone can see!

Michael Barraclough

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of julia s sutton
Sent: 30 November 1999 20:51
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw


Re 16th-c. siding:

I'll be glad to show it to anyone interested. The original text is a bit
confusing, but I think I've figured it out.  We could set up a date
easily. Let me know what you think.

Julia


On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Michael J. O'Connor wrote:

> julia s sutton wrote:
> > There is yet another authentic siding, in Italian sources of the late
> > 16th-c. We have no way of knowing if this kind was ever used in country
> > dances, though we know of Italian influences in England.   This kind is
> > the most flirtatious of the three.
> >
> 	Well, I'm curious; Julia, could you describe this third kind?
> 	Mike O'Connor
>

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Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
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John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
together.net> wrote:
>
> ...I proposed in a recent biography of Sharp that we should 
>use "siding" for what we have done in the EFDSS and CDSS 
>tradition for more than eighty years, and use "side-by-side" 
>for the shoulder to shoulder movement. This seems so 
>unobjectionable that it should command ready assent (except 
>from those with some other agenda)and is descriptive enough to 
>be intelligible to most.
>

I would be in agreement with this. Eleven years ago I was telling Christine
Helwig about the dance week I had been to in Port Townsend, Washington that
summer. Jim Morrison was one of the teachers at that week and he flatly refused
to teach Sharps version "because Sharp made it up." Christine had one answer
to that: "What's wrong with ninety years of tradition?"

"Traditions" evolve and change and get reinterpreted. That's what we on this
list do all the time. We have no way of knowing exactly what is right. What
Shaw came up with is mearly another interpretation with no absolute proof that
it is any more "correct". As far as that goes, every place I have danced in
the country has slightly different ways of doing things according to how a particular
teacher interpreted what they were taught. 

As I pointed out some time ago, I learned Sharp siding differently than many
people do it today. That is because they or their teacher have interpreted it
differently. I keep my shoulders parallel to my partner and move sideways part
way around a circle (not all the way to partners place). This is how Jenny Shimer
and May Gadd taught it but I learned it that way long before I met them. Other
people have learned (interpreted?) it more as passing shoulders with their partners
and turning to face them. This is more the way that Helena dances it.

Every dance form continues to evolve and borrow from others. There are movements
in ECD that have been introduced since I started over thirty years ago. We all
encounter, and embrace as our own, movements that are a part of other traditions.
The tango is a popular dance form in Finland but would hardly be recognized
by an Argentine. The way I heard it was that it was introduced in Finland in
the Fifties.

Andy in Portland, OR
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Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
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julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com> wrote:
>I personally would like to see Sharp's siding discontinued >except for those
dances created after Sharp.
>

To completely discontinue it you will likely meet with as much opposition from
some of us as Sharp did when he tried to change what he had been teaching. I
will personally lead the charge. I find the full face eye contact in Sharp siding
more intimate than the sideways glance in Shaw's.

Your desire to discontinue it is only because what is "historically correct"
is being recognized as Shaw's interpretation. It depends on whose history you
refer to. I learned Playford with Sharp's interpretation because Shaw hadn't
yet introduced his. *My* history says that those dances are done with Sharp
siding and I find it awkward to use Shaw siding for many of them. It changes
the way the dance flows. As Christine Helwig once said to me, "What's wrong
with ninety years of tradition."

Andy in Portland, OR
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:57:46 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
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For years I've been using "siding" (for Sharp's interpretation) and "side
by side" (for Shaw's interpretation) with success, so I second John
Bremer's proposal in favor of these terms.   Of course whenever I first use
the term "siding" with a group, someone always shouts out "which one?" but
once I've made my definitions clear the terms work well (short,
distinctive, suggestive, clear) for teaching, prompting, and discussion.

Christine Helwig would often use the historical and pleasantly quaint
"sides all." (sides y'all in the sourthern counties).

Now, where do you suppose we should all meet for Julia's demonstration of
Italian siding?  How about Venice?  

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Caller, Musician, beside himself as usual






 
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:20:27 -0800
From: timelord01-AT-
sprynet.com (Ric Goldman)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: gyp
To: ECD-AT-
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Alan does a good job summarizing morris occurrences of the term.  For what it's worth, I've 
come across a number of places that use the term "gyp" (pronounced both as "jip" and "gip") 
for a step similar to the Sharp siding.  Usually, the phrase is "gyp with partner", "gyp with 
corner", &c.  As I've seen it done, both people point their right shoulders towards each 
other, and slip to the right, passing face-to-face to each other and on to each other's 
place.  I've seen a similar morris exchange, but it was called something else entirely.  

Anyone else come across this?

Thanx, Ric Goldman

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Emma Rushton inquires:
>
>  when did the term "gyp" come into use?  
>
>Don't know.  We get it from morris dancing - various traditions name figures
>half-gyp or whole-gyp.  This wouldn't have entered scholarly discourse until
>after 1899, also via C. Sharp.
>
>  Does it just mean "gypsy"?
>
>Apparently.  All the whole-gyp figures I'm familiar with involve two dancers
>circling each other and returning to the starting place, which is pretty 
>gypsy like.  Half-gyp, curiously, recapitulates the Sharp-siding and
>Shaw-siding differences; some traditions (and interpretations vary within 
>traditions, for that matter) do half-gyp into line; some cross over into the
>partner's place and come back (although I can't remember the name of a
>tradition that does the latter, I can remember the feeling of doing it in some
>workshop).
>
>-- Alan

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:55:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
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Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw
To: ECD-AT-
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On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 adpete-AT-
jps.net wrote:

> julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com> wrote:
> >I personally would like to see Sharp's siding discontinued 
> >except for those
> >dances created after Sharp.
> 
> To completely discontinue it you will likely meet with as much
> opposition from some of us as Sharp did when he tried to change what
> he had been teaching. I will personally lead the charge. I find the
> full face eye contact in Sharp siding more intimate than the sideways
> glance in Shaw's.
> 
> Your desire to discontinue it is only because what is "historically correct"
> is being recognized as Shaw's interpretation. 

she didn't say that, did she?  maybe she finds shaw's interpretation
*works* better in the dances.

i'm with julia on this one, for the most part: not out of a desire to be
historically correct, but because, while i like sharp siding in some
dances (particularly those written with it in mind), i find it very
awkward in others.  

to play devil's advocate to christine helwig, what's wrong with giving
other interpretations a chance? you might be pleasantly surprised at the
way a dance would flow.  i've enjoyed the few reconstructions by colin
hume that i've had a chance to try.  (i'd love to try his version of
newcastle, but in my part of the country i think the version i presume to
be sharp's is too firmly entrenched.)

susie lorand
princeton, nj, usa

> It depends on whose history you
> refer to. I learned Playford with Sharp's interpretation because Shaw hadn't
> yet introduced his. *My* history says that those dances are done with Sharp
> siding and I find it awkward to use Shaw siding for many of them. It changes
> the way the dance flows. As Christine Helwig once said to me, "What's wrong
> with ninety years of tradition."

> Andy in Portland, OR

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From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
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Subject: Re: gyp
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On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Apparently.  All the whole-gyp figures I'm familiar with involve two dancers
> circling each other and returning to the starting place, which is pretty 
> gypsy like.  Half-gyp, curiously, recapitulates the Sharp-siding and
> Shaw-siding differences; some traditions (and interpretations vary within 
> traditions, for that matter) do half-gyp into line; some cross over into the
> partner's place and come back (although I can't remember the name of a
> tradition that does the latter, I can remember the feeling of doing it in some
> workshop).
> 
> -- Alan

i believe bampton crosses over into partner's place - but by the right
shoulder & then the left (at least in the version of bampton, several
times removed from the english village, that i've learned in princeton),
not left first & then right.

we cross straight over to our partner's place, without changing
orientation, and then fall back to our own place, on the half-gyp.

for whole gyp, we make a wide circle around our partner & return to place,
first by the right shoulder & then the left.

i have no idea what they do in bampton.  could be three different things
(i understand there are three different sides), and it could change from
year to year as well.  if anyone is really curious, try asking the morris
dancing discussion list...

--susie lorand
millstone river morris
princeton, nj, usa

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From: Michael S Franch <franch-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: sharp vs. shaw vs. morris
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>>>Fourth, Sharp's difficulty is somewhat surprising since he knew that 
>the basic figures of Playford set dances were derived from the
>Morris  (John Bremer)
>
>What's the historical backup for this theory?  (Marian Phillips)

Not only what's the historical backup, but it would be nice on some of
these discussions if we could have citations to a primary source for
"Sharp says . . ." statements.  I'm sure that John Bremer could do so;
I'm not impugning the accuracy of his statement, it's just that (vestiges
of my historical training), I like to know where statements come from.

Mike Franch
Baltimore, Md.

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:47:23 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: New Year's Day in the Morning
To: ECD-AT-
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I recently noticed a tune in Barnes entitled "New Year's Day in the
Morning," with a date of 1750, and was wondering if anyone could point me to
a source for the dance instructions (or even post them here if there aren't
any copyright issues).

Thanks --

Marian Phillips

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:56:46 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: movies
To: ECD-AT-
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The spousal unit and I recently went to see "Sleepy Hollow" (boy, some
soundtrack on that movie.  I didn't think to bring earplugs), and of course
there's a scene where Johnny Depp walks into a party and of course there are
fiddlers and of course I start wondering what they're playing, and of the
three tunes listed in the credits the only one I recognize (or can remember)
is "Argeers."  I have to say that when I went home and played it out of
Barnes it didn't ring a bell, so now I'm actually considering going to see
"Sleepy Hollow" again just to see if they really were playing "Argeers," and
to get the names of the other tunes.

The only other movie I can call to mind that used ECD tunes for local color
is "Restoration," (Robert Downey, Jr. in the lead role; great movie), where
he plays "Newcastle" for the patients in the insane asylum.

So I'm wondering if anyone can name other movies where ECD tunes were used,
and if so, which ones?

Marian Phillips

================================================================================
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From: William DeRagon <wderagon-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: New Year's Day in the Morning
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On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:47:23 -0800 Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net> writes:
> I recently noticed a tune in Barnes entitled "New Year's Day in the
> Morning," with a date of 1750, and was wondering if anyone could 
> point me to a source for the dance instructions (or even post them here
> if there aren't any copyright issues).
> 
> Thanks --
> 
> Marian Phillips

The dance instructions can be found in "English Country Dances,
Fallibroome Collection 3" by Bernard J Bentley, published & copyrighted
by EFDSS, 1980 (reprinted 1984 [at least]).  The historic source cited
therein is Johnson's "200 Favourite Country Dances...", c. 1750.

William DeRagon
Albuquerque, NM
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: movies
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Marian --

>I have to say that when I went home and played it out of
>Barnes it didn't ring a bell, so now I'm actually considering going to see
>"Sleepy Hollow" again just to see if they really were playing "Argeers," and
>to get the names of the other tunes.

Great costumes in Sleepy Hollow, and nice period-ish dialogue on Johnny Depp
and Christina Ricci.  

The end credits say that they've got Hesperus playing Argeers and some other
tune, which didn't themselves really ring a bell, but I suspect you can find
the medley on a Hesperus CD.  (I'd have to check, but I think you could find it
on "Early American Roots.")   Hesperus doesn't play particularly danceable
versions of the ECD and Early American tunes it plays.


>The only other movie I can call to mind that used ECD tunes for local color
>is "Restoration," (Robert Downey, Jr. in the lead role; great movie), where
>he plays "Newcastle" for the patients in the insane asylum.

So I'm wondering if anyone can name other movies where ECD tunes were used,
and if so, which ones?

Naturally, it's done a lot in the modern Jane Austen movies.  Check back
through the ECD archive and you can probably find set lists for "Sense and
Sensibility" and both versions of "Emma."

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
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 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:29:22 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: movies
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002701bf3bbd$7c8aeb80$b1f7490c-AT-
pavilion>
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There are also web pages describing the dances done in the movies made from
Jane Austen's works  - I can look up the URLs if needed.
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: movies


> Marian --
>
> >I have to say that when I went home and played it out of
> >Barnes it didn't ring a bell, so now I'm actually considering going to
see
> >"Sleepy Hollow" again just to see if they really were playing "Argeers,"
and
> >to get the names of the other tunes.
>
> Great costumes in Sleepy Hollow, and nice period-ish dialogue on Johnny
Depp
> and Christina Ricci.
>
> The end credits say that they've got Hesperus playing Argeers and some
other
> tune, which didn't themselves really ring a bell, but I suspect you can
find
> the medley on a Hesperus CD.  (I'd have to check, but I think you could
find it
> on "Early American Roots.")   Hesperus doesn't play particularly danceable
> versions of the ECD and Early American tunes it plays.
>
>
> >The only other movie I can call to mind that used ECD tunes for local
color
> >is "Restoration," (Robert Downey, Jr. in the lead role; great movie),
where
> >he plays "Newcastle" for the patients in the insane asylum.
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone can name other movies where ECD tunes were
used,
> and if so, which ones?
>
> Naturally, it's done a lot in the modern Jane Austen movies.  Check back
> through the ECD archive and you can probably find set lists for "Sense and
> Sensibility" and both versions of "Emma."
>
> -- Alan
>
>
>
>
============================================================================
===
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:
650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA
94309-0210
>
============================================================================
===
>
>

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:30:50 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: movies
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> The end credits say that they've got Hesperus playing Argeers and some other
> tune, which didn't themselves really ring a bell, but I suspect you can find
> the medley on a Hesperus CD.  (I'd have to check, but I think you could find it
> on "Early American Roots.")   Hesperus doesn't play particularly danceable
> versions of the ECD and Early American tunes it plays.

I just looked at my copy of "Early Am. Roots", and unfortunately Argeers 
is all by itself there, not part of a medley, so there's no clue which 
other tunes they used. I agree -- fun to listen to, not particularly 
danceable.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 01:47:47 -7000
From: Rich Galloway <rich-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: gyp
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<color><param>0000,0000,FF00</param>> when did the term "gyp" come into use?  


</color>After considerable research, I can confidently conclude, "I don't 
know."  The earliest references I have been able to find to "gyp" are 
all late nineteenth century and always in reference to the morris dance 
figure.  "Gip" was used as a derivative of gypsy was a derogative term 
that has now come to mean to cheat.  ("Gypsy" derives from 
Egyptian, from the mistaken believe that the Rom people came from 
there.) 


But, it seems more likely that "gyp" is part of a word complex 

	(<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>clasp, clip, gaff, gibbet, gig, </color>goffer, <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>grappel, grasp, grip, 

	</color>gybe, <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>gyve, have, jib, jibe, 

	vacillate</color>, vibrate, <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>yaw, </color>wafer, waffle, <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>waive, </color>wave, <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>weave, 

	web, </color>weevil, weft, whip, wipe, <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>wobble, woop</color>) 

meaning either forked, tee, hook (and hence "to hold"), turning <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>to one 
side, waiver, or weave.  E.g., a jib, jibe or gybe sail is one that is 
shifted from side to side.    Nineteenth century English villagers may 
have been more familiar with another meaning of jib--the side-to-side 
fidgeting of a horse under halter.  But, that's just speculation.  Besides, 
while "B" to "P" is a common transmutation in many languages, English 
speakers tend to mind their P's (if not their Q's) fairly closely.  


<color><param>0000,0000,FF00</param>Does it just mean "gypsy"?


</color>Perhaps the question should be asked the other way around.  Sharp 
consistently used the term "whole gip" in country dance 
reconstructions.  It's not until his successors published "Maggot Pie" in 
1932 that we see the term "gypsy" used.  

<nofill>
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Rich Galloway         Silver Spring, MD
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