Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 06:14:48 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:15:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

[details about Jack's Health snipped out]

 . . .  A good
> dance leader does not need to be told how long the As and Bs are, since
> s/he can read the music right there on the page and know, and since s/he
> should have determined that kind of thing when preparing to present the
> dance.

Very true, but I imagine that part of the purpose and appeal of the BN CDs
will be to help folks get started on their own, and in addition to not
having a band, they may not have the benefit of an experienced leader,
either.

> I join Julia in hoping that we will maintain high standards for leadership,
> including that all leaders can read music and determine tempi, both for the
> dancers and the band, and that leaders can tell when the band is wandering
> from the set tempo.

Are you saying that someone who is interested in leading English Country
Dance who can't read music yet must go off and learn that before
undertaking to learn to teach dance?  While I agree completely that a good
leader should be able to do the things you call for, the process of
getting there is different for each person, and for many, the door to
music is through dance, rather than the other way 'round.

And there are _many_ wonderful folk musicians who are excellent dance
musicians who can't read music or who read it so marginally that they
can't approach ECD music without either an enormous amount of work, or the
example that a recording can provide from which they can then learn the
tunes.  

I feel that a project of this nature and magnitude rightfully should
address the questions raised by the constant need to enable new folks to
take up this activity, whether as dancers, musicians, or leaders.  So I
think that the information given on the disk should be aimed not so
specifically at those who already know how to use the music, but at as
large a potential clientele as it conveniently can within the constraints
that the medium allows.  

The examples set by Nicholas Broadbridge and the Assembly Players with CDs
like "A Walsh Ball" and by Wild Thyme with "Dutch Crossing," with the
dance instructions published with the CD, extend the possible uses of
those CDs well beyond the current format of the Bare Necessities series.
While I believe it is far more common for folks in the UK to dance to
recordings than it is here, it's certainly better if folks are dancing to
records than not dancing at all.  I think it is to the benefit of all of
us if people can be encouraged to use these CDs for dancing where bands
and experienced leaders are not readily available, and that the more they
are "user-friendly" in this regard, the more that is likely to happen.  

It is hard to become an experienced leader, after all, without experience.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 06:33:41 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:34:18 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Well, of course, it's the old chicken and egg thing.  Which comes first -
leading, or reading music and dance instructions out of the book and
deciphering them.  And, of course, many would like to lead and share what
they love with their communities while not yet being fully prepared.

But the distinctive thing about our dancing is the link between the music
and the dance.  Often, we all know, a boring dance can be made quite
acceptable or even wonderful by super music.  And often, on the west side
of the pond, any other tune just won't do.

In fact, our insistence on the correct tune makes playing for our dancing
much more difficult, since 13, 15, 17 times through a tune - you just can't
play it the same way every time.  Improvising on a melody is much harder
than changing melodies.  Many highly trained and capable musicians can't
play without the notes in front of them, can't play anything but what they
see, can't even play the melody without the notes after they've played it
13 times for the dance.

So, actually, the CDs will become very helpful for new groups, but I still
maintain that training musicians and fully equipped leaders is where we
should be focussing our energies when we proselytise.  And the fully
equipped leader knows exactly how each figure fits the melody, and exactly
where the sections of the melody begin and end.

Not knowing this leads to sloppy leading and dancing, where the leader
cannot figure out why things didn't come out right at the end of the melody.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 08:45:48 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:45:21 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Right and Left
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion (not to mention a defense of my
very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly even
shameful, locution "mini grand right and left."  

The necessity of which this invention was born was my calling the Capital
(Albany, NY) English Country Dancers' "10th Anniversary Party."  Expecting
a good crowd of experienced dancers who had danced together regularly for
some or all of the 10 years since Nancy Yule founded the group, I had
planned a  program of old and new favorites that included several
challenging but highly rewarding dances (e.g. Miss deJersey's Memorial and
Gary Roodman's Homecoming).  

It soon became apparent, however, that the crowed included a large
contingent of folks (8 out of the total of 40-50) who clearly had never
done any English dancing before, who seemed to be acquainted with one
another, and who seemed to move well without getting flustered as beginners
typically do.  When I asked one of them about their background, I was told
"We do square dances, and some Scottish.  We were in the area attending
other dance events."

For a 10th Anniversary gala masquerade party, I wasn't about to teach much
of anything, nor did I want to deprive the regulars of some meaty material.
 So I improvised along the way.  I dropped some dances, made substitutions,
asked the "beginners" to sit out for Miss deJ. and watch a lovely dance,
came up with some odd descriptions of things, etc.  As Emily Ferguson
proferred, "mini grand right and left" did indeed work like a charm.  I did
not teach the figure at all, and *no one* went wrong.  It worked because
"grand-right-and-left" has morphed into a single word entry in our brain's
lexicon (certainly for square dancers), not a noun-phrase consisting of
noun logically modified by a rule (i.e. a "big" right and left). [This idea
is informed by the work of MIT linguist Steven Pinker.  If you don't have
any of his books, don't waste another moment reading this drivel and click
on over to Amazon or BarnesandNoble and order "The Language Instinct" or
"Words and Rules."   Not too technical, often amusing or hilarious, and
informative reading, and musts for any caller, IMHO] Grand-right-and-left,
is a single, compound word that means a forward motion, in a single
circular direction, passing other dancers hand over hand.  So "mini" is
just a smaller one of those.

Do other callers have any other quickie "non-teaching" favorite tricks for
some of our favorite figures?

BTW, when I do have occasion to "teach" 4 changes of rights and lefts, I do
it without hands first.  We all know that if you describe the figure to
beginners using hands, the 2nd corner people invariably go wrong.  I ask
folks to dance around the foursome, passing partner by the right shoulder,
turning to face neighbor and passing left shoulder, etc.  Only after
walking that once or twice do I then say "Now do the same thing with
hands."  Later on in the evening or class series, we enhance the "pass by
with hands" into the half-turn that adds connection and grace.

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Caller, and Musician and owner of a purple Dodge."Grand Caravan
SE" minivan.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:09:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:09:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Gene Murrow writes:
> 
> BTW, when I do have occasion to "teach" 4 changes of rights and lefts, I do
> it without hands first.  We all know that if you describe the figure to
> beginners using hands, the 2nd corner people invariably go wrong.  I ask
> folks to dance around the foursome, passing partner by the right shoulder,
> turning to face neighbor and passing left shoulder, etc.  Only after
> walking that once or twice do I then say "Now do the same thing with
> hands."  Later on in the evening or class series, we enhance the "pass by
> with hands" into the half-turn that adds connection and grace.

   I have used the "mini-grand-right-and-left" phrase myself upon occasion.
In fact I used it last Saturday night at the Gypsy Moon Ball in Indianapolis.
I think you are correct about GRL being thought of as a single entity and
mini merely being a modifier that people can understand.  I've also noticed
the tendency of people to turn the wrong direction when doing rights and
lefts in a group of 4, so teaching it without hands might have a benefit.
I'll try it the next time.

   I noticed the opposite problem when teaching Chelmsford Assembly some
time back.  There is a circular hey (rights and lefts without hands, if you
will) for 6 people in it.  The group I was teaching it too seemed to have
trouble with the concept.  I finally thought of having them do it with
hands (a la grand-right-and-left) and then repeat the same motion without
hands.  This seemed to work.

Jonathan

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Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:18:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:15:31 -0500
From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." <Roger-AT-
just.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Warped and Micro Right & Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991101125635.00a47600-AT-
209.183.254.10>
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--Boundary_(ID_qEurohvFDliU6CK02CKe0w)
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At 11:45 AM 11/1/1999 , you wrote:
>In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion (not to mention a defense of my
>very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly even
>shameful, locution "mini grand right and left."  
>
>The necessity of which this invention

Ah, Necessity, the Mother of Invention . . . a famous EC that has not been written.

But, I digress.

As Gene so aptly pointed out, the phrase mini-grand right & left is valuable because: "Grand-right-and-left,
is a single, compound word that means a forward motion, in a single circular direction, passing other dancers hand over hand."

I (caller-NOT) was recently asked to help teach a hey for four at (shh . . .) a contra dance.  The dancers were totally new.  It was once pointed out to me by friend Neil that a hey for four, across the set, is just a variation on grand right and left.  So, I told the dancers: ladies, grab right hands in the middle, etc. . . . just like a grand right & left.  Next time thru, we did it with no hands.  They learned what is one of the more difficult figures in contra/ECD in a flash.  Perhaps, then, a hey for three is a micro-grand right & left, w/o hands?  As for the purist who likes to use dance-form-specific terminology, well, we can always say it originated with ECD and the grand right & left is just a variation of moves that were choreographed long ago under a different name . . . er what WAS that terminology?  Then, there's contra corners, an allemande-ish hey of somewhat more complexity, er, a mondo right & left.

Then, there's the grand right and wrong . . . probably fits into this discussion in some oblique fashion.

Looking forward to seeing many of you at NOMAD . . . yippee!

-- Roger
_  _  ________________ _  ____________________________________________
  /__) _,___,  _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: Roger-AT-
just.net
          _/_               www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html
_______ (/____________________________________________________________

--Boundary_(ID_qEurohvFDliU6CK02CKe0w)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<html>
At 11:45 AM 11/1/1999 , you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion
(not to mention a defense of my<br>
very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly
even<br>
shameful, locution &quot;mini grand right and left.&quot;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
The necessity of which this invention</blockquote><br>
Ah, Necessity, the Mother of Invention . . . a famous EC that has not
been written.<br>
<br>
But, I digress.<br>
<br>
As Gene so aptly pointed out, the phrase mini-grand right &amp; left is
valuable because: &quot;Grand-right-and-left,<br>
is a single, compound word that means a forward motion, in a single
circular direction, passing other dancers hand over hand.&quot;<br>
<br>
I (caller-NOT) was recently asked to help teach a hey for four at (shh .
. .) a contra dance.&nbsp; The dancers were totally new.&nbsp; It was
once pointed out to me by friend Neil that a hey for four, across the
set, is just a variation on grand right and left.&nbsp; So, I told the
dancers: ladies, grab right hands in the middle, etc. . . . just like a
grand right &amp; left.&nbsp; Next time thru, we did it with no
hands.&nbsp; They learned what is one of the more difficult figures in
contra/ECD in a flash.&nbsp; Perhaps, then, a hey for three is a
micro-grand right &amp; left, w/o hands?&nbsp; As for the purist who
likes to use dance-form-specific terminology, well, we can always say it
originated with ECD and the grand right &amp; left is just a variation of
moves that were choreographed long ago under a different name . . . er
what WAS that terminology?&nbsp; Then, there's contra corners, an
allemande-ish hey of somewhat more complexity, er, a mondo right &amp;
left.<br>
<br>
Then, there's the grand right and wrong . . . probably fits into this
discussion in some oblique fashion.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to seeing many of you at NOMAD . . . yippee!<br>

<br>
-- <i>Roger<br>
</i>_&nbsp; _&nbsp; ________________ _&nbsp;
____________________________________________<br>
&nbsp;/__) _,___,&nbsp; _&nbsp;&nbsp; _&nbsp;&nbsp; /_)&nbsp; Contra
dancing fanatic, English country<br>
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.&nbsp; Email:
Roger-AT-
just.net<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
_/_&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html" eudora="autourl">www.just.net/~roger/dance_niche.html</a><br>
_______
(/____________________________________________________________</html>

--Boundary_(ID_qEurohvFDliU6CK02CKe0w)--
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:44:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:46:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991101184654.14242.rocketmail-AT-
web2905.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> In aid of encouraging a fruitful discussion (not to mention a
> defense of my
> very honor!), I'll own up to improvising the awkward, and possibly
> even
> shameful, locution "mini grand right and left."  

I think the "mini grand right and left" is brillaintly simple (or is
it simply brillaint?)  It conveys a clear image of the move with a
minimum of verbiage which after all is the goal of description, isn't
it?

Barbara Ruth

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:56:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:56:47 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b443928632e2-AT-
[140.186.55.36]>
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Your basic grand R&L is a with hands movement.  That's why there's a
special call in square dancing for no hands.

In addition, giving hands makes it so much harder to turn around and go off
in the wrong direction - there's someone offering you the next hand, right
there in front of you!


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:19:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:22:02 -0800
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: MDDL, was Re: The Imagined Village
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Stephanie Smith writes:

>>I'm sure the book caused quite a stir in the ritual community.

If by "ritual community" you mean all morris & sword dancers, I'll bet it
did.  The Imagined Village was certainly an equal-opportunity slaughter;
Boyes barely left anyone standing, from the "we're reviving the pagan
priesthood" people to the "we're just hearty working-class villagers doing
it for the cadging" contingent.

I found her treatment of ECD interesting mainly for its discussion of
gender-balancing, since my first forays into the ECD list archives turned up
a lengthy and heartfelt discussion of that same topic.  My impression is
that fewer and fewer organizations are adhering to gender balancing rules at
dances (comments?), but my astonishment is that this was an issue as
recently as the last couple of years.  Boyes' comment about EFDSS rules
excluding women from ECD dances where there was a "shortage" of men is:

"...the prospect of recognizing that the same membership fees as men should
provide women with the same membership rights as men proved too
revolutionary for the Society's hierarchy to cope with. . . . Although women
dancing together had long been an unremarked aspect of behaviour in dance
halls and ballrooms throughout the country, its existence in English Folk
Dance and Song Society performances was uniquely and increasingly
controversial."

And this is the 1940s she's talking about.  It's a little depressing that
the same topic had to be discussed in the 1990s.

Marian Phillips

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:45:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:45:33 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <199911011445_MC2-8B3F-98D9-AT-
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Leave it to the active minds on this list to turn an off-hand "BTW" into a
discussion of some pretty important issues (like what preparation callers
should have before leading ECD, and how circumstances may affect the
ideal)....  Is this a great country, or what?

Anyway, leaving aside the big issue for a moment, and responding to Eric's
points:

>even when the dance figures for A1 & A2 are quite different -- does that
mean you would list it, for example, as ABB?

I wouldn't.  Jack's Health being a case in point.  The A1 dance figure is
very different from the A2 dance figure, but I would still designate it as
"AA..." because: a) the tune "Bolt the Door" is always noted with the A
music repeated (not only in Barnes, but in a venerable source, Francis
O'Neill's "Dance Music of Ireland," published in Dublin), b) the dance
instructions are always noted A1 and A2, and c) to a dancer's ears it
sounds like a standard-length  phrase repeated, which it is!

>I think I would opt for the description which fits most closely the thing
being described, in this case, the music.

I agree, but the problem arises where there's ambiguity in the notation of
the music.  Consider "From Aberdeen."   Peter Barnes notates the opening as
a 4-bar phrase, repeated  (AA?).  Sharp's "Country Dance Tunes" (the old
original Novello stuff) notates it as a single 8-bar phrase.  Sharp's dance
instructions, which remains the most current printed source (to my
knowledge), describes the corresponding movement as a single "A" phrase (it
is a single continuous movement).   In all cases, the "B" is an 8-bar
phrase, repeated, so I opted for the designation "ABB."  Three phrases,
each 8 bars long. Jacqueline Schwab, however, did wonder whether it should
have been AABB.  Any other opinions?

All this is trivia.  The important thing is that callers should encourage
dancers to *listen to the musical phrases* and shape their movements to the
music as they hear it! "Bars of music" means practically nothing to most
dancers, nor should it.  It's up to the caller to figure out how the
movement fits beforehand and to teach/doodle/prompt/demonstrate it so that
the synchronization is apparent (on rare occasions number cues/counting are
helpful, but that's a whole other bone we've chewed on).  We're talking
here about how callers prepare.  They can do whatever works-- preparing "by
ear," playing a recording until they can visualize or feel how the movement
fits-- or "by sight," reading the music and looking at the dance 
instructions.  As is often the case, extra knowledge (an ability to read
music as required by the latter method) pays off in efficiency and
accuracy.   That's why I encourage callers to learn the rudiments of music,
and why I teach workshops in such skills.

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:32:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:35:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991101203503.16263.rocketmail-AT-
web2902.mail.yahoo.com>
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--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> Gene Murrow
> EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King

But not CC Ryder? 


Barbara Ruth

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:47:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:54:45 -0400
From: sheilab-AT-
tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v0153050cb443a0655b30-AT-
[206.119.45.178]>
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>--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>> Gene Murrow
>> EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King
>
>But not CC Ryder?
or DeeDee Sharp?  (not related to Cecil, I think...)

Sorry, I can't resist....

Sheila Beardslee Bosworth        sheilab-AT-
tiac.net
Editor, Boston Early Music News     Deadline  Nov 25 for Dec 15  issue
    for all events Events Dec 15-Jan 31
    WEB Calendar  http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/concerts/bemn/
Pavane  website http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~nhmuse/Pavane

29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505
VOX  978/263.9926      FAX  978/263.2366




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:56:20 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:56:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Orly Krasner <okrasner-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Alphabet soup
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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hotmail.com>
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Oh, well.  If we've made it this far, I have to throw in e. e. cummings. . .
--Orly Krasner (who sometimes reads poetry when she's not busy concocting 
new dances. . . did someone suggest "Mother of Invention" as a title. . .?!)
okrasner-AT-
hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:57:02 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:13:13 -0500
From: Sharon Green <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Warning: BAD Pun/Null Content
To: ECD-AT-
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That husband of mine just sent me an e-card asking whether we'd be dancing
Knives and Fawkes this Friday night.
Bad, David, bad!!
Hugs,
Sharon
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:05:11 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:05:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Alphabet soup
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Orly Krasner wrote:
> Oh, well.  If we've made it this far, I have to throw in e. e. cummings. 

NOT a fan of President Ferris F Fremont (but a big fan of Philip K Dick),

--will

11/01/0079 - Pompei buried by Mt Vesuvius
11/01/1604 - William Shakespeare's tragedy "Othello" 1st presented
11/01/1611 - Shakespeare's romantic comedy "Tempest" 1st presented
11/01/1765 - Stamp Act goes into effect in British colonies
11/01/1834 - 1st published reference to poker as Miss. riverboat game

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:41:03 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:41:21 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Warning: BAD Pun/Null Content
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
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That, David... what a guy!

Gene
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:58:04 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:56:24 -0500
From: Ridge Kennedy <srkennedy-AT-
email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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In squares, the figure you're describing would be more accurately described
by saying "square thru four hands" -- though trad-dancers would "get" the
explanation.  "Grand" in scientific "modern western" square terminology
describes figures that involve all eight dancers.

R.

Ridge Kennedy
Washington, NJ (No Exit)
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:56:24 -0500
From: Ridge Kennedy <srkennedy-AT-
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Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[140.186.55.36]>

In squares, the figure you're describing would be more accurately described
by saying "square thru four hands" -- though trad-dancers would "get" the
explanation.  "Grand" in scientific "modern western" square terminology
describes figures that involve all eight dancers.

R.

Ridge Kennedy
Washington, NJ (No Exit)
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:08:15 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:12:01 -0500
From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
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Every English school child used to know the story of Guy Fawkes, 
primarily because it was the occasion for bonfires, the burning of a guy 
(that is, an effigy of said Fawkes), and FIREWORKS. The customs today I 
cannot vouch for, but until 1939 (the outbreak of World War II) children 
would make a guy, put it on a soapbox on wheels, and go round the 
streets asking "A penny for the guy". Or they might recite:
Please to remember the Fifth of November
The Gunpowder treason and plot.
I see no reason
Wny Gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

While the "Gunpowder treason" was horrible in intent, it would not have 
survived if it had not attached itself to some older and more 
deep-seated celebration. At the end of October and the beginning of 
November (calendars were neither exact nor correlated) fires had been 
lighted from time immemorial all over Europe, marking the change of 
seasons. Fawkes was lucky enough (lucky?) to supplant the old ritual of 
tree and leaf-burning. Halloween is related.

Incidentally, we should remember the original Guy Fawkes Day as the last 
serious attempt to raise politicians to a higher level.

But I like Knives and Fawkes.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 15:46:11 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:46:16 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <monson-AT-
talk21.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <007d01bf24c3$6bb65f80$6a7a8cd4-AT-
trevormo>
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aol.com>

With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
"Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?

I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
more.

Trevor Monson
(who dances mostly in Yorkshire)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:34:40 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Trevor Monson wrote:

  With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
  "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?

  I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
  hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
  be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
  more.

Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because of Levi Jackson
Rag, where I sometimes hear the five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
Grand Chain, but I think I've heard it used as you suggest here.  

I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure with hands
and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but whichever I call someone will
invariably ask whether that's with hands or not.  "Circular Hey" seems to be
Cecil Sharp's terminology, rather than from historical sources; some leaders
replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) which is more
descriptive. 

-- Alan















     


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:51:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:50:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: "Andrew D. Peterson" <adpete-AT-
jps.net>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <381dfd04.453.0-AT-
jps.net>
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>Trevor Monson wrote:
>> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >> the term
"Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
>>
>> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" 
>> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. 
>> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a 
>> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
>>
>Alan Winston wrote:
>Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of Levi Jackson
Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.  
>
>I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure >with hands
and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but >whichever I call someone will
invariably ask whether that's >with hands or not.  "Circular Hey" seems to be
Cecil Sharp's >terminology, rather than from historical sources; some leaders

>replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) >which is more
descriptive. 
>

"Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies chain across
in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand Right &
Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably creates
confusion.

Andy in Portland
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:55:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:51:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: "Jack's Health" notation
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.991101235029.28465A-100000-AT-
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Sheila Beardslee Bosworth wrote:

> >--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gene Murrow
> >> EC Dancer, Caller, Musician and fan of both AA Milne and BB King
> >
> >But not CC Ryder?
> or DeeDee Sharp?  (not related to Cecil, I think...)
> 
> Sorry, I can't resist....

Or, of course, e. e. cummings.

(I couldn't resist either.)
 
Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:09:40 PST
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Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:56:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Trevor Monson wrote:

> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
> "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> 
> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
> hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
> be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
> more.

We use said terms here in St. Louis, MO, USA.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:47:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:48:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dr Paul Davis <paul.davis-AT-
computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <SIMEON.9911020821.A-AT-
sixup.oucs.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
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Square thru four hands leaves you without the final 
right-angle change of direction (ie passing straight on 
after the last left instead of turning right) which occurs 
in a hey for 4 or English right-and-left thru (Across and 
back).
Usually important distinction for the next figure - 
neighbour or partner:)
Paul

On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:56:24 -0500 Ridge Kennedy 
<srkennedy-AT-
email.msn.com> wrote:

> In squares, the figure you're describing would be more 
> accurately described by saying "square thru four hands" -- 
> though trad-dancers would "get" the explanation.  "Grand" 
> in scientific "modern western" square terminology describes 
> figures that involve all eight dancers.
> 
> R.
> 
> Ridge Kennedy
> Washington, NJ (No Exit)
> When you stumble, make it part of the dance.
> 

----------------------
Dr Paul Davis
Computer Teaching Officer, OUCS, 
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN
01865 283414

-------------------------------------------------------------


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 05:14:07 PST
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:19:12 +0000
From: Douglas Goss <douglas-AT-
goss89.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Halloween and Guy Fawkes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <000201bf2536$10df6200$49b7883e-AT-
e7p5o4>
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While the "Gunpowder treason" was horrible in intent, it would not have
survived if it had not attached itself to some older and more
deep-seated celebration. At the end of October and the beginning of
November (calendars were neither exact nor correlated) fires had been
lighted from time immemorial all over Europe, marking the change of
seasons. Fawkes was lucky enough (lucky?) to supplant the old ritual of
tree and leaf-burning. Halloween is related.


In reply to this......


The old festival was called "Samhien" (pronounced sa-waine) and was the
traditional celtic New Year, dating from the celtic times - the seasons
changing from the harvest, therefore fruitful time, to the winter, a much
harder, darker time. Therefore, the sun was encouraged by bonfires and
sacrifices i.e. burning of sacrifices. The reason why apples are so
important at this time of year is that apples are a sacred fruit. Because it
is the turning of the year, it was felt that the veil between the worlds was
thin, so the ancestors could be contacted, and spirits and ghosts were more
likely to be present. Some people (pagans) still celebrate this and other
ancient festivals.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:34:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:36:27 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <381F04FB.EE9AEB18-AT-
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I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I know
where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I believe the
Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could someone
let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in from the
north (Haverill area).

Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:37:41 PST
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:39:26 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Truckee-Reno
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I will be in the Truckee California area from January 13th to the 25th.
Will be tied up with family some of the time but would like to know if
there is any English or Scottish Country Dancing in either the Truckee
Ca or Reno Nev. area during that time. Have danced with the Truckee SCD
group before.

Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:03:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:04:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199911021604.KAA13742-AT-
staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Andrew D. Peterson writes:
> 
> "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies chain across
> in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand Right &
> Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably creates
> confusion.
> 
   While this is true I have heard several square callers use the phrase
"chain the hall" as part of their patter while calling a Grand Right and Left.

   As someone else mentioned in an earlier message I like to use "rights
and lefts" when it is to be done with hands and "circular hey" when done
without hands, though I may try the "square hey" idea.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
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|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:46:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:47:31 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Halloween and Guy Fawkes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b12b444c4b28262-AT-
[155.99.169.121]>
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Couldn't the tradition of bonfires on Guy Fawkes Night be related to having
to get rid of a lot of garden debris in autumn - fallen leaves, tree
prunings etc.  I'm sure that is the reason that bonfires on Nov 5th have
survived in so many families.  And couldn't the reason for the importance
of apples be that they were once virtually the only fresh fruit at this
time of year in Britain, and also the easiest to preserve through winter.

Sorry this is getting so off-topic.

Emma


>While the "Gunpowder treason" was horrible in intent, it would not have
>survived if it had not attached itself to some older and more
>deep-seated celebration. At the end of October and the beginning of
>November (calendars were neither exact nor correlated) fires had been
>lighted from time immemorial all over Europe, marking the change of
>seasons. Fawkes was lucky enough (lucky?) to supplant the old ritual of
>tree and leaf-burning. Halloween is related.
>
>
>In reply to this......
>
>
>The old festival was called "Samhien" (pronounced sa-waine) and was the
>traditional celtic New Year, dating from the celtic times - the seasons
>changing from the harvest, therefore fruitful time, to the winter, a much
>harder, darker time. Therefore, the sun was encouraged by bonfires and
>sacrifices i.e. burning of sacrifices. The reason why apples are so
>important at this time of year is that apples are a sacred fruit. Because it
>is the turning of the year, it was felt that the veil between the worlds was
>thin, so the ancestors could be contacted, and spirits and ghosts were more
>likely to be present. Some people (pagans) still celebrate this and other
>ancient festivals.

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:22:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <0.55fb4423.255077c1-AT-
aol.com>
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So, somehow we expect people to be more baffled by "mini grand right and left" than by "half a double figure of eight"?

Nilos Nevertheless
who can go in several contradictory directions simultaneously even without a confusing call, but not on behalf of any government agency.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:49:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:48:49 -0500
From: Brad Foster <brad.foster-AT-
cdss.org>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: news of death of CDSS members on the Egypt Air flight
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991102134818.009e5bb0-AT-
crocker.com>
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Dear ECD list,

I've just received the following from George Fogg:

"I have to report that Anne Soernssen & Gloria Berchielli were aboard the 
Egypt Air that crashed this weekend.  Terry Soernssen, sister in law, 
called to confirm it today."

Anne and Gloria were both long time CDSS members, active in the NYC area. 
Gloria worked for us for a while in the early 1980's, and was particularly 
involved with our programs at Pinewoods Camp and weekends at Hudson Guild 
Farm. We will miss them both a great deal.

We've been asked to spread the sad news. If you knew either of them, and 
know others that do, please pass on this information. We would also like to 
print a notice of their deaths in the News; please send us any information 
you know that should be in such notice, as well as remembrances.

Brad

Brad Foster				Country Dance and Song Society
Executive and Artistic Director		PO Box 338/132 Main St
brad.foster-AT-
cdss.org			Haydenville, MA 01039-0338
413-268-7426 x100   fax:413-268-7471	http://www.cdss.org
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:17:45 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:18:15 -0500
From: "Albert A. Blank" <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <381F38F7.FD075A9B-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <01JHTUZLIUA4A5U57C-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

    The term for circular hey in square dancing that is not heard much anymore is
"weave the ring".  I prefer it.
Al

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Trevor Monson wrote:
>
>   With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use the term
>   "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
>
>   I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" when giving
>   hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. A Grand Chain tends to
>   be for more than 4 people, but a Circular Hey can be for 4 people or
>   more.
>
> Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because of Levi Jackson
> Rag, where I sometimes hear the five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
> Grand Chain, but I think I've heard it used as you suggest here.
>
> I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure with hands
> and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but whichever I call someone will
> invariably ask whether that's with hands or not.  "Circular Hey" seems to be
> Cecil Sharp's terminology, rather than from historical sources; some leaders
> replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) which is more
> descriptive.
>
> -- Alan
>
>
>
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
> ===============================================================================

--
Albert Blank & Nancy DeVore
102 Loring Avenue
Pelham, NY 10803-2014

Tel. 914 738-7678
e-mail: fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:55:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:55:32 -0800
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com
Message-ID: <199911022155.AA234129732-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Here's an item in the "everybody thinks of things in their own way"
department.  I was teaching a folk dance group, and did one of those
dances with a circular hey in a 3-couple set (top couple begin across,
middle couple down, bottom couple up).

I knew that many of the dancers also did square dancing, so I taught
it as, "face this way, then do a grand right and left."  I spent more
time than usual on which way to face at the beginning, and less than
usual on how to do a circular hey, smugly relying on what they already
knew.

It broke, quite severely, in one set.  I gave that couple another look
at how the figure begins, and reminded them that then "it's just like
grand right and left."  I knew these particular dancers were
experienced square dancers.  (By the way, the problem wasn't 8 changes
instead of 6 -- someone was going the wrong way somewhere in the
middle.)

I never did get that set sorted out, and wound up just running the
dance, with them improvising each time that figure came around.
Afterwards I was talking with one of the dancers and he volunteered
that he found my directions odd, "because you had me facing clockwise
to begin, but in grand right and left the men go counterclockwise."

Bruce Hamilton			Agilent Laboratories             MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
hpl.hp.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:56:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:16:42 +0000
From: Trevor Monson <monson-AT-
talk21.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002101bf257d$51e0f420$3454ac3e-AT-
trevormo>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <381dfd04.453.0-AT-
jps.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew D. Peterson <adpete-AT-
jps.net>
To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Right and Left


> >Trevor Monson wrote:
> >> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >>
the term
> "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> >>
> >> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left"
> >> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands.
> >> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a
> >> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
> >>
> >Alan Winston wrote:
> >Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of
Levi Jackson
> Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a
ladies
> Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.
> >
> >I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure >with
hands
> and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but >whichever I call
someone will
> invariably ask whether that's >with hands or not.  "Circular Hey"
seems to be
> Cecil Sharp's >terminology, rather than from historical sources; some
leaders
>
> >replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) >which
is more
> descriptive.
> >
> Andy in Portland wrote:
> "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies
chain across
> in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand
Right &
> Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably
creates
> confusion.
>

Over here (in England that is), for Levi Jackson, I think I have only
heard the figure called as "all 5 ladies chain" or "Chain all the ladies
in" so we haven't been confused with "Grand Chain" in that respect.

Our problem is with "Circular Heys" as people nearly  always ask "with
or without hands?".  The accepted terminology is that this is without
hands, but if no-one asks, then people tend to do what they feel happier
with - so the "accepted etiquette" is that if someone offers you a hand
you take it - do not just ignore it with your nose in the air! (even if
it is "wrong").

When callers are calling a mixture of "English" and "American" they tend
to try and keep to the accepted terminology of each style so say "right
and left through" wouldn't be used in English, but "half right and left"
would etc. etc.
To me (who does not call many American Squares or Contras, but tends to
stick to English old and new) "American" terminology appears to be far
more precise, so exactly the correct call must be used to leave people
facing in the correct direction for the next part of the figure.  In
"English" it doesn't seem to need to be that precise as the figures are
more forgiving (maybe? - did I really say that?!)

However, whatever the terminology, surely if everyone understands what
the caller means, and can carry out the manoeuvre satisfactorily, there
is not a problem.  (But one problem I do get, in "Scottish" is trying to
differentiate between "wheels" and "reels" - especially when said with a
Scottish accent. Thank goodness we can call them "stars" and "heys" in
English.

Trevor Monson
(Still dancing in Yorkshire)

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:45:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:43:31 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130301b44527909a4d-AT-
[140.186.55.181]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ah.  The joys of literal mindedness.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 16:15:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:06:40 -0600
From: Dianna Shipman <diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <002d01bf2590$a0071400$a3e0490c-AT-
pavilion>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <381dfd04.453.0-AT-
jps.net> <002101bf257d$51e0f420$3454ac3e-AT-
trevormo>

In Scottish I've had the same problem so try to say right hands in for a
wheel or left hands in for a wheel (so they don't think I'm saying "reel").
Dianna
Dianna L. Shipman
diannashipman-AT-
worldnet.att.net
Dianna L. Shipman, P.C., Attorney at Law
PMB 134, 1436 W. Gray
Houston, TX 77019-4946
web page: http://home.att.net/~diannashipman
phone: 713-522-1212
----- Original Message -----
From: Trevor Monson <monson-AT-
talk21.com>
To: <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Right and Left


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew D. Peterson <adpete-AT-
jps.net>
> To: <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Right and Left
>
>
> > >Trevor Monson wrote:
> > >> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >>
> the term
> > "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> > >>
> > >> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left"
> > >> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands.
> > >> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a
> > >> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
> > >>
> > >Alan Winston wrote:
> > >Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of
> Levi Jackson
> > Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a
> ladies
> > Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.
> > >
> > >I personally like to use "Rights and Lefts" to mean this figure >with
> hands
> > and "Circular Hey" for this figure without, but >whichever I call
> someone will
> > invariably ask whether that's >with hands or not.  "Circular Hey"
> seems to be
> > Cecil Sharp's >terminology, rather than from historical sources; some
> leaders
> >
> > >replace that with "square hey" (I think Philippe Callens does) >which
> is more
> > descriptive.
> > >
> > Andy in Portland wrote:
> > "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies
> chain across
> > in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand
> Right &
> > Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably
> creates
> > confusion.
> >
>
> Over here (in England that is), for Levi Jackson, I think I have only
> heard the figure called as "all 5 ladies chain" or "Chain all the ladies
> in" so we haven't been confused with "Grand Chain" in that respect.
>
> Our problem is with "Circular Heys" as people nearly  always ask "with
> or without hands?".  The accepted terminology is that this is without
> hands, but if no-one asks, then people tend to do what they feel happier
> with - so the "accepted etiquette" is that if someone offers you a hand
> you take it - do not just ignore it with your nose in the air! (even if
> it is "wrong").
>
> When callers are calling a mixture of "English" and "American" they tend
> to try and keep to the accepted terminology of each style so say "right
> and left through" wouldn't be used in English, but "half right and left"
> would etc. etc.
> To me (who does not call many American Squares or Contras, but tends to
> stick to English old and new) "American" terminology appears to be far
> more precise, so exactly the correct call must be used to leave people
> facing in the correct direction for the next part of the figure.  In
> "English" it doesn't seem to need to be that precise as the figures are
> more forgiving (maybe? - did I really say that?!)
>
> However, whatever the terminology, surely if everyone understands what
> the caller means, and can carry out the manoeuvre satisfactorily, there
> is not a problem.  (But one problem I do get, in "Scottish" is trying to
> differentiate between "wheels" and "reels" - especially when said with a
> Scottish accent. Thank goodness we can call them "stars" and "heys" in
> English.
>
> Trevor Monson
> (Still dancing in Yorkshire)
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 17:05:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 20:04:51 -0500
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130300b44537e1d130-AT-
[209.244.244.198]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <199911011741_MC2-8B48-3675-AT-
compuserve.com>

>I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
>workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I know
>where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I believe the
>Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could someone
>let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in from the
>north (Haverill area).
>
>Ben Stein
>dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net

The saturday dance with Bruce Hamilton (workshop from 2-5pm, and dance
party from 8 to 11pm) will be held at the Park Avenue Congregational Church
in Arlington Heights.  You can find the church at the corner of Park Avenue
and Paul Revere Road - church entry is on Paul Revere road. By car: from
route 2 go north on Park Avenue in Arlington Heights; or from Massachusetts
Avenue go south 1 block on Park Avenue.

Public transportation from central Boston - quoting from Lyrl Ahern:

>Take the red line to Harvard. Get off there, follow signs to the buses,
>and take the #77 bus out Mass. Ave. to Arlington Heights. That is the
>end of the line. Ask the bus driver to let you off at Park Ave.
>(actually a block short of the end). Go up the hill one block to the
>corner of Paul Revere. The church is on your right.
>Enter on Paul Revere.

See you all there - Linda


__________________________________________________
"Oh, yes.  It's vital to remember who you really are.
It's very important.  It isn't a good idea to rely on other
people or things to do it for you, you see.  They always
get it wrong."        (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery")
__________________________________________________


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:45:09 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:45:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce's Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991103024540.3814.rocketmail-AT-
web2103.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

--- "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net> wrote:

> >I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
> >workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I
> know
> >where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I
> believe the
> >Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could
> someone
> >let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in
> from the
> >north (Haverill area).
> >
> >Ben Stein
> >dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net

> 
> The saturday dance with Bruce Hamilton (workshop from 2-5pm, and
> dance
> party from 8 to 11pm) will be held at the Park Avenue
> Congregational Church
> in Arlington Heights.  You can find the church at the corner of
> Park Avenue
> and Paul Revere Road - church entry is on Paul Revere road. By car:
> from
> route 2 go north on Park Avenue in Arlington Heights; or from
> Massachusetts
> Avenue go south 1 block on Park Avenue.
> 
> Public transportation from central Boston - quoting from Lyrl
> Ahern:
> 
> >Take the red line to Harvard. Get off there, follow signs to the
> buses,
> >and take the #77 bus out Mass. Ave. to Arlington Heights. That is
> the
> >end of the line. Ask the bus driver to let you off at Park Ave.
> >(actually a block short of the end). Go up the hill one block to
> the
> >corner of Paul Revere. The church is on your right.
> >Enter on Paul Revere.
> 
> See you all there - Linda

Thanks, Linda, for posting that information.

Here is a slightly amplified verson of the driving directions:

Come in Route 2 to exit 58, Park Avenue to Arlington
Heights. Go over the hill, passing the water tower to your right,
going downhill and through a light. 

As the hill gets steeper and you can see the light at a major
intersection (Mass. Ave.) at the bottom of the hill, look for the
Park Ave. Congregational Church on your left. It is one block uphill
from Mass. Ave. at the corner of Paul Revere Rd.

Parking is on the streets adjacent to the church. The entrance to the
hall is on Paul Revere Road.

--Lyrl




=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:14:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 08:16:16 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <382035A0.90F1E471-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <199911011741_MC2-8B48-3675-AT-
compuserve.com> <l03130300b44537e1d130-AT-
[209.244.244.198]>



"Linda M. Nelson" wrote:

> >I am going to the Boston First Friday dance and Bruce Hamilton's
> >workshop and dance. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my flyer. I know
> >where the Friday evening dance is (been there before) but I believe the
> >Saturday workshop and dance are NOT in the Scout House. Could someone
> >let me know the time, place and directions. I will be coming in from the
> >north (Haverill area).
> >
> >Ben Stein
> >dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net
>
> The saturday dance with Bruce Hamilton (workshop from 2-5pm, and dance
> party from 8 to 11pm) will be held at the Park Avenue Congregational Church
> in Arlington Heights.  You can find the church at the corner of Park Avenue
> and Paul Revere Road - church entry is on Paul Revere road. By car: from
> route 2 go north on Park Avenue in Arlington Heights; or from Massachusetts
> Avenue go south 1 block on Park Avenue.
>
> Public transportation from central Boston - quoting from Lyrl Ahern:
>
> >Take the red line to Harvard. Get off there, follow signs to the buses,
> >and take the #77 bus out Mass. Ave. to Arlington Heights. That is the
> >end of the line. Ask the bus driver to let you off at Park Ave.
> >(actually a block short of the end). Go up the hill one block to the
> >corner of Paul Revere. The church is on your right.
> >Enter on Paul Revere.
>

Thank you very much Linda. Will see you there, if I don't see you before: at
the Friday evening dance in Brookline.

Ben Stein




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 05:26:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: dancers-AT-
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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 08:28:37 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce's Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38203885.ECD5BE87-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <19991103024540.3814.rocketmail-AT-
web2103.mail.yahoo.com>



Lyrl Ahern wrote:

> Here is a slightly amplified verson of the driving directions:
>
> Come in Route 2 to exit 58, Park Avenue to Arlington
> Heights. Go over the hill, passing the water tower to your right,
> going downhill and through a light.
>
> As the hill gets steeper and you can see the light at a major
> intersection (Mass. Ave.) at the bottom of the hill, look for the
> Park Ave. Congregational Church on your left. It is one block uphill
> from Mass. Ave. at the corner of Paul Revere Rd.
>
> Parking is on the streets adjacent to the church. The entrance to the
> hall is on Paul Revere Road.
>
> --Lyrl

Thank you Lyrl for the amplified directions. They should be a big help. I
used to come in to Boston on Rt 2 often when my wife and Mother in Law
were both still alive but am not very familiar with the area where the
church is. My Mother in Law lived in Chelmsford.

See you this weekend.

Ben



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:34:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 13:31:25 -0500
From: MARTHA C DAVEY <marthacd-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: 18th century American
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19991103.133142.-227337.0.marthaCD-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Hello all-
	I received a phone call from a couple in Brooklyn, NY who would like to
hire some musicians, 
a leader and some dancers to perform and teach 18th century American
Dances  in costume on 
Thanksgiving Friday Evening. They have a large room which could
accommodate 70 dancers, 
mostly their guests. If anyone knows of the availability of such a group,
please contact me privately.  
If anyone could repost this to another appropriate list, that would be
helpful also. 
Thanks for your help  
Martha
Martha Davey
25-14 37 ST,
Astoria, NY 11103
(718)278-4389    voice/fax #(917)463-9781 (NYC area code)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:19:44 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:52:36 +0000
From: Bob Archer <bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Right and Left
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Andrew D. Peterson wrote:

> >Trevor Monson wrote:
> >> With reference to "Mini/Grand Rights & Lefts" does anyone use >> the term
> "Grand chain"  or "Circular Hey"?
> >>
> >> I understand a Grand Chain to be your "Grand Right & Left" 
> >> when giving hands, or a Circular Hey when  not giving hands. 
> >> Grand Chain tends to be for more than 4 people, but a 
> >> Circular Hey can be for 4 people or more.
> >>
> >Alan Winston wrote:
> >Well, "Grand Chain" has gotten to be kind of confused because >of Levi Jackson
> Rag, where I sometimes hear the >five-ladies-chain figure called as a ladies
> Grand Chain, but I >think I've heard it used as you suggest here.  
> >
> 
> "Grand Chain" is used in square dancing to mean that all four ladies chain across
> in contrast to a "Chain" which is for two ladies to chain. A "Grand Right &
> Left" is not the same as a "Grand Chain" and using them interchangably creates
> confusion.

I'm wondering if there's a UK / US split here. In my experience in 
the UK, "grand chain" means "grand right and left" and nobody is 
confused by it because "grand chain" has no other meaning. In the 
US "grand chain" means "all four (or five) ladies chain". It's not right 
or wrong, it's just different. I don't even think it's a square / no-
square distinction, I've danced MWSD and trad. squares in the UK 
and never heard "grand chain" used in its "all four ladies chain" 
sense.

To link this in to the issue of using technically incorrect 
terminology to get the idea of a move across - I'm completely 
behind Gene's (and others) defence of the "mini grand right and 
left" description. Given a choice between a caller being pedantically 
accurate and taking longer to teach the dance, or a caller using a 
set of words that get the idea across quickly even though they are 
being "incorrect" I know which I'd go for (and I'm sure there are 
people around who would make the other choice). Of course the 
ideal is to be pedantically accurate and quick, but sometimes that 
option isn't available.

Terminology varies so much between countries, and even between 
areas of a single country, that unless you're only going to dance / 
call in one area you need to be adaptable to the differences.

Bob


----------------------------------------------------------
-- Bob Archer      bob-AT-
hottub.demon.co.uk
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Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 06:46:30 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 10:34:21 -0800
From: "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com>
Subject: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Message-ID: <3821D1AC.5814-AT-
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Bob Archer wrote:    <snip>
> To link this in to the issue of using technically incorrect
> terminology to get the idea of a move across - ...
>      Given a choice between a caller being pedantically
> accurate and taking longer to teach the dance, or a caller using a
> set of words that get the idea across quickly even though they are
> being "incorrect" I know which I'd go for 

	This raises an interesting issue.  IIRC, Gene said he had used an
improvised term because he thought it would convey the concept
efficiently to an identifiable group of new-to-English dancers who came
from a particular background of dancing.
	Does anyone have examples of technically correct instructions (TCI) in
specific dances that produce repeated instances of confusion of the same
sort somewhere on the dance floor without some further explanation of
what the dance move is or how to execute the TCI?
	I find the instruction at the end of the B1 in St. Margaret's Hill,
that the 1's should "turn two hands half-way to end proper" to be an
example.  This instruction comes after the 1's have led through the
bottom couple and cast up to middle place, and before they turn their
right corners by the left.
	On several occasions in the first dozen times I danced this dance, I
found that I had turned 3/4 at this point, had a sudden flash of
realization and confusion that being up-and-down the set was obviously
incorrect, and resolved it by continuing the turn all the way, leading
to the immediate realization that we were somehow in the wrong place.  I
have subsequently seen several relatively new dancers do precisely the
same.
	This seems to happen because the dance has such a sense of flow that
when you cast up to middle place the woman tends to flow higher in the
set than the man, so that instead of first taking hands at a point from
opposite sides of the set, they first take hands almost up-and-down the
set, woman above.  The instruction clicks in at that point, two-hand
turn halfway, and whoops!  We're up-and-down the set again!  Help!
	I originally thought this was just my difficulty getting oriented in
this disorienting dance, or in following the precise direction, or in
remembering the addendum "to get proper" (when it was given, although,
in such a disorienting dance, proper can be as hard to find as the
bottom of the set sometimes is).  But seeing others make the same
mistake made me wonder, and then I did it once with Brad Foster calling,
and he called it differently, something like 1's pass by your partner to
the other side, touching hands in the middle.  He explained that he was
not using the standard call here and said something about why which
seemed to be on the order of this works better in practice, though I
can't now recall it exactly.
	I felt that the little cartoon lightbulb had just clicked on in that
cloud over my head, inrecognition of a good idea.  I think Brad's call
also makes it a little easier for the 1's to flow outside the set in
taking left hands with their corners, since the direction of movement is
across the set does not imply a stop in line (to my ears), while
two-hand turn implies to me that you end the turn in the line, not
outside it.  This may be a very subtle distinction, or one that is
peculiarly my own, but I have certainly seen lots of people turn and
stop flowing, then start up again for the left-hand turn.
	Bob Archer noted that different people will make different choices in
how they opt to call a particular move, and I hope that any who disagree
with my comments on St. Margaret's Hill will do so in a separate thread,
because I intended it only as an example of what I wanted the major
point of this post to be, a solicitation of (other) situations in which
the technically correct call not uncommonly leads to the same sort of
confusion, and what you do to anticipate, avoid or fix the problem.
	Mike O'Connor


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:11:23 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:11:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: St. Margaret's Hill instrux
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Mike O'Connor wrote (under another subject line) --

  	I find the instruction at the end of the B1 in St. Margaret's Hill,
  that the 1's should "turn two hands half-way to end proper" to be an
  example.  This instruction comes after the 1's have led through the
  bottom couple and cast up to middle place, and before they turn their  
  right corners by the left.
	On several occasions in the first dozen times I danced this dance, I
  found that I had turned 3/4 at this point, had a sudden flash of
  realization and confusion that being up-and-down the set was obviously
  incorrect, and resolved it by continuing the turn all the way, leading
  to the immediate realization that we were somehow in the wrong place.  I
  have subsequently seen several relatively new dancers do precisely the
  same.
  	This seems to happen because the dance has such a sense of flow that  
  when you cast up to middle place the woman tends to flow higher in the
  set than the man, so that instead of first taking hands at a point from
  opposite sides of the set, they first take hands almost up-and-down the
  set, woman above.  The instruction clicks in at that point, two-hand
  turn halfway, and whoops!  We're up-and-down the set again!  Help!

There are a bunch of things in this dance that contribute to the error you 
describe.   I personally haven't had the 'flow pushes you to start the turn
already turned 1/4" problem, but here are some factors:

The dance starts with 1s casting off to the center and turning 3/4.  
A feeling of symmetry might propel you into turning 3/4 after the next time
you cast off to the center.  (And there is symmetry, but not with the start
of the dance, where that move isn't echoed; instead, it's with the _next_
cast off to the center, where everyone turns two hands 1/2 way.)

I have called dances where I said "end proper" and people hear "improper" 
and scuttle to get improper even in the right place.  I now try to say 
"finish proper" or "end on your own side" or something different.


Just generally, for me, this is a "muscle memory" dance.  It has major
flow once you've got it, but dancers can find it a slog to "get" it; I 
think Brad's approach works because it  makes the dancers feel the path, thus
developing the muscle memory needed; once they feel where to go, they can 
feel that they need to turn two hands 3/8s of the way and then drift into
the line giving left hand to the one on the right, or whatever.

-- Alan 

PS: Love the dance, of course.






	I originally thought this was just my difficulty getting oriented in








this disorienting dance, or in following the precise direction, or in
remembering the addendum "to get proper" (when it was given, although,
in such a disorienting dance, proper can be as hard to find as the
bottom of the set sometimes is).  But seeing others make the same
mistake made me wonder, and then I did it once with Brad Foster calling,
and he called it differently, something like 1's pass by your partner to
the other side, touching hands in the middle.  He explained that he was
not using the standard call here and said something about why which
seemed to be on the order of this works better in practice, though I
can't now recall it exactly.
	I felt that the little cartoon lightbulb had just clicked on in that
cloud over my head, inrecognition of a good idea.  I think Brad's call
also makes it a little easier for the 1's to flow outside the set in
taking left hands with their corners, since the direction of movement is
across the set does not imply a stop in line (to my ears), while
two-hand turn implies to me that you end the turn in the line, not
outside it.  This may be a very subtle distinction, or one that is
peculiarly my own, but I have certainly seen lots of people turn and
stop flowing, then start up again for the left-hand turn.
	Bob Archer noted that different people will make different choices in
how they opt to call a particular move, and I hope that any who disagree
with my comments on St. Margaret's Hill will do so in a separate thread,
because I intended it only as an example of what I wanted the major
point of this post to be, a solicitation of (other) situations in which
the technically correct call not uncommonly leads to the same sort of
confusion, and what you do to anticipate, avoid or fix the problem.
	Mike O'Connor




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:48:59 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 14:52:44 -0500
From: John Bremer <Jbremer-AT-
together.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: news of death of CDSS members on the Egypt Air flight
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I first met Anne Soernsson and Gloria Berchielli in 1959 when I began 
teaching Morris and Sword for CDS (as it was) at the Metropolitan Duane 
Church in New York. They were not ritual dancers but were both 
interested in seeing our dancing when they came early for May Gadd's 
country class, and they often asked questions. They were enthusiastic 
and serious country dancers, although serious should not be understood 
as meaning severe--indeed, their good humor and obvious affection for 
the dance was always an element of joy to all of us. I got to know them 
better at Pinewoods and, especially, at the Hudson Guild weekends. It is 
a great sadness to think that we shall not run into them, unexpectedly, 
at a Playford Ball somewhere--as happened last year--but I am glad that, 
being such good friends, they were together en route to another 
adventure which had long attracted them, an exploration of the wonders 
of Egypt. I have fond memories of them both. John Bremer.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:05:56 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:07:24 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991104120724.007aa590-AT-
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Michael J O'Connor wrote,

>	Does anyone have examples of technically correct instructions (TCI) in
>specific dances that produce repeated instances of confusion of the same
>sort somewhere on the dance floor without some further explanation of
>what the dance move is or how to execute the TCI?

I was calling "All Saint's Day" at Pinewoods campers' night some years ago.
Everyone got the tricky "meanwhile" figure of the A part just fine, but
experienced dancers were casting off after the "up a double and fall back
into lines"  instead of crossing and then casting.   I didn't want them to
hear the word "cast"  at all in order to prevent them casting before they
crossed, but when I said "actives cross and go below", only some people got
it right, and many still cast off instead of crossing and casting. So after
I stopped calling the rest of the dance, I continued calling just that one
figure, changing the wording every time.  "Actives continue moving forward"
  "Or ones pass right shoulders" or "cross and loop below your twos" and
even "twos assist the actives across".  I didn't know why the problem was
happening, just that it was, and I tried a whole bunch of different
wordings to fix it. 

It was Bruce Hamilton who figured out afterwards WHY the problem occurred.
"Apley House" had been taught earlier in the evening.  Dancers had been
trained to follow the "up a double, fall back bending the line" in that
dance with a "cast off".  It was so ingrained, and more so for experienced
dancers who have danced Apley House umpteen million times, that it took
unusual wording to get the dancers' attention to do something different in
another dance with a different ending to the same figure.

Another dance for which I had to use unusual terminology was Gary Roodman's
"A Celt's New Dance"  In this square dance you do everything twice, ending
first with your original opposite, and then with your partner.  Normally
one would call the person next to you at the end of a figure your "partner"
even though you didn't start the dance with that person.  If I used the
term "partner" or even "current partner" when that person was your original
opposite, some people would charge across the set to find their ORIGINAL
partner. There was just as much confusion if I called that person "your
original opposite." Standard terminology wsn't working.

I decided to eliminate those terms completely the next time I called the
dance.  "The person next to you", and "the person across from you" took
more words, but caused less confusion, and shortened the total teaching
time considerably. In the first verse where you leave your original partner
and star once or walk halfway to take your opposite as your new partner, I
had dancers look across the set before starting and told them to find "that
person " for the right hand turn.      

I remember a caller glaring at a confused newcomer who didn't respond to
"cast off below your twos." and repeating 5 or 6 times "CAST OFF BELOW YOUR
TWOS!"  It was a foreign language. Louder and more often didn't help.  The
guy just stood there.  Newcomers don't KNOW the standard term, so repeating
it a lot won't help-- defining it using alternate wordings will generally
be more useful. 

I'm always on the lookout for wordings that make a tricky move go smoothly
with the fewest words and the greatest clarity.  Once I've taught a dance a
few times, I know what mistakes people are likely to make, and I find the
terms I like to prevent those mistakes,  but I'm also perfectly happy
stealing ideas from other callers so that I don't have to find the best
wordings by trial and error. So I hope a lot of people will respond to this
thread and share favorite wording-shortcuts that help teach.     

One of my favorite people to steal words from is Helene Cornelius because
she is fabulous at sparse, effective language that prevents mistakes, and
keeps everyone moving smoothly.  I love watching her call.  Its minimalism
at its height.  When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a
few of them to get things across.           
   
Victoria Bestock    
  


Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies.....
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Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 16:25:17 PST
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 19:25:58 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130301b447d44f0f79-AT-
[140.186.55.43]>
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>
>One of my favorite people to steal words from is Helene Cornelius because
>she is fabulous at sparse, effective language that prevents mistakes, and
>keeps everyone moving smoothly.  I love watching her call.  Its minimalism
>at its height.  When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a
>few of them to get things across.

Yup.

And she uses things that improve on her when other people come up with them.


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:24:23 PST
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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 11:28:24 -0500 (EST)
From: David.Millstone-AT-
VALLEY.NET (David Millstone)
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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--- Victoria wrote:
I love watching her [Helene Cornelius] call.  Its minimalism at its height. 
When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a few of them to get
things across.
--- end of quote ---

Many years ago, I did some jobs sharing the contra calling with Dudley Laufman,
who, as some of you know, spent years working in the schools, no PA system, and
even still can belt out the calls. One obvious survival strategy in those
circumstances is to use as few words as possible. I remember a dance where I was
saying "Everybody swing their partner" (8 syllables) while Dudley would just
bellow, "All swing." Did the trick just fine... 

David Millstone
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Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 09:40:22 PST
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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 17:14:09 +0000
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subscribe Robert Moir



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Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:01:48 PST
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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:02:16 -0500
From: dancerhiker <dancerhiker-AT-
gateway.net>
Subject: 2000 Hartford Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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It was brought to my attention that people were asking about the date of this years Hartford Ball. It will be on Saturday May13th in W. Hartford CT. Musicians this year are Norb Spencer, Dave Langford, M-A Martin and Chris Rua. The flyers will go out in early January. Hope to see many of you there! Helen Davenport dancerhiker-AT-
yahoo.com 

--Boundary_(ID_EbBugJfOlWw0G6z5Mc7kOg)
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It was brought to my attention that people were 
asking about the date of this years Hartford Ball. It will be on Saturday 
May13th in W. Hartford CT. Musicians this year are Norb Spencer, Dave Langford, 
M-A Martin and Chris Rua. The flyers will go out in early January. Hope to see 
many of you there! Helen Davenport <A 
href="mailto:dancerhiker-AT-
yahoo.com ">dancerhiker-AT-
yahoo.com 
</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_EbBugJfOlWw0G6z5Mc7kOg)--
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Archive-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 06:38:08 PST
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Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 09:40:01 -0500
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bruce's Boston Weekend
To: ECD-AT-
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Thanks Lyrl: Please give my regrets to all, particularly to Bruce, in my
not being able to be at the dances in the Boston area this weekend. I
really enjoy Bruce's teaching and am sorry not to be there.

I had a little scare the other day and spent the last two days in the
Hospital. I am fine and at home now but think it best not to venture too
far away just yet. Besides, I am rather tired-you don't get much rest in
a Hospital, despite spending lots of time in bed. Thursday morning I had
symptoms that were so close to those that I had 5 or 6 years ago when I
had a minor heart attack that I checked myself in "just in case".
Evidently the minor damage done in the earlier attack can cause a
repetition of symptoms on scattered occassions. In any case, I am fine,
with no evidence of an attack this time and the symptoms are gone. I
would have enjoyed the weekend but-oh well!

Regards and regrets
Ben Stein
dancers-AT-
globalnetisp.net



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:29:38 PST
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 05:27:42 -0500
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: With GUSTO
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD-AT-
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compuserve.com>
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If you're interested in training, the final GUSTO newsletter is now
available on http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/gnews5

Colin Hume
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:49:23 PST
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:47:53 -0800
From: "Gary D. Shapiro" <garyes-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: With GUSTO
To: ECD-AT-
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[24.8.188.38]>
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>If you're interested in training, the final GUSTO newsletter is now
>available on http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/gnews5
>
>Colin Hume

Methinks you omitted the ".htm" at the end of the URL as an exercise for the reader.  Thanks for all your work and dedication.

--
"Don't go where the path leads. Rather go where there is no path and leave a trail."  -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Gary D. Shapiro   <garyes-AT-
iname.com>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:39:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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[This mistakenly went to owner-ecd, which gets to me, rather than to 
ECD, so I have forwarded it to the list. -- Alan Winston]

From:	IN%"antony-AT-
iae.nl"  7-NOV-1999 09:39:00.83
To:	IN%"owner-ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU"
CC:	
Subj:	Cast and Lead


Having read with interest the correspondence on Rights and Lefts, I am
prompted to raise another problem.

First couple cast & lead, 2nd couple lead and cast or whatever is such a
mouthful to call that I wonder if there is another solution. Square dancers
would say zoom zoom but our dancers hate to think they are using square
dance movements (even those who do square dancing think the two fields
should be kept separate). Dutch dancers call the movement a "versierrondje"
which may translate as a decorative circle but since it also means a
flirtatious circle, it gives the figure a new meaning. One needs to define
who casts and who leads, but I find it is mostly the higher couple who
casts.

Anybody got any opinions about this figure?

Antony Heywood
Dutch Folk Dance Society NVS




===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 16:02:55 PST
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:03:29 -0500
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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[140.186.55.169]>
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We call it "cast & lead and lead & cast" when we teach it, but when we're
just prompting, we assume that the couples can figure out where they begin
and just call it "cast & lead"


================================================================================
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Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 23:41:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911072340070.847-100000-AT-
allspice.cs.swarthmore.edu>
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On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:
> We call it "cast & lead and lead & cast" when we teach it, but when
> we're just prompting, we assume that the couples can figure out where
> they begin and just call it "cast & lead"

sometimes at swarthmore this figure has been called "loops".

--will

11/07/1637 - Anne Hutchinson banished from Mass bay colony as a heretic
11/07/1805 - Lewis & Clark 1st sights Pacific Ocean
11/07/1872 - Mary Celeste sails from NY to Genoa; later found abandoned
11/07/1929 - Museum of Modern Art opens (NYC)
11/07/1931 - Chinese People's Republic proclaimed by Mao Tse Tung
11/07/1932 - "Buck Rogers in the 25th century" premieres on CBS-radio

Happy birthday, Marie Curie (1867) and Albert Camus (1913)!
Bonus Points! 1st foreign language broadcast by US Prez: who & what year?

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	    http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/folkdance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:50:58 -0800
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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"cast & lead"
>
>sometimes at swarthmore this figure has been called "loops".

This reminds me that when I was teaching in the schools, the third graders
renamned the poussette figure in Knole Park  "shopping carts." 

Victoria Bestock   


Check out our WEB site, at   http://www.oz.net/~bestockp/
Read about our trip to the Rockies.....
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:14:56 +0100
From: Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <38268680.FB06F75B-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be>
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References: <01JI23GCJP7M8ZE0VP-AT-
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> Having read with interest the correspondence on Rights and Lefts, I am
> prompted to raise another problem.
>
> First couple cast & lead, 2nd couple lead and cast or whatever is such a
> mouthful to call that I wonder if there is another solution. Square dancers
> would say zoom zoom but our dancers hate to think they are using square
> dance movements (even those who do square dancing think the two fields
> should be kept separate). Dutch dancers call the movement a "versierrondje"
> which may translate as a decorative circle but since it also means a
> flirtatious circle, it gives the figure a new meaning. One needs to define
> who casts and who leads, but I find it is mostly the higher couple who
> casts.
>
> Anybody got any opinions about this figure?
>
> Antony Heywood
> Dutch Folk Dance Society NVS

Two years ago I heard Colin Hume call it "mini cast". I liked that term, short and
useful, and started to use it, too, when I call in English.


Philippe Callens

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:01:13 +0000
From: Douglas Goss <douglas-AT-
goss89.freeserve.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction  (WAS: Right and Left)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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e7p5o4>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Emily L. Ferguson <elf-AT-
cape.com>
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Date: 05 November 1999 00:30
Subject: Re: Technically Correct Instruction (WAS: Right and Left)


>
>One of my favorite people to steal words from is Helene Cornelius because
>she is fabulous at sparse, effective language that prevents mistakes, and
>keeps everyone moving smoothly.  I love watching her call.  Its minimalism
>at its height.  When you have the right words, as she does, it only takes a
>few of them to get things across.

Yup.

And she uses things that improve on her when other people come up with them.

Gordon Potts (a London based but nationally known caller) is very good, too.
Apparantley he spends a long time working out how he can make dancers move
in the right way with the minimum, but very clear, instructions. The great
thing is that when he starts to call a normal ceilidh suddenly turns into an
excellent party like atmosphere ceilidh.


================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:09:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I like Will Quale's "loops."  It's short, succinct, and conveys the idea

We have sometimes used "fountains" to describe the feeling of the figure.  

I like to think of it as a half double figure-eight without the crosses.
(;-)

More seriously, I like to use the cast-&-lead, lead-&-cast figure as a way
of introducing double figure-eights.  I think of the c&l/l&c figure as an
essentially simple one even though it is a "meanwhile" figure.  Double
figure-eights require only the addition of crossing in the center and
repeating the whole figure to get back home.

Eric Arnold

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:27:56 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:29:18 -0700
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b01b44ca9c5d76b-AT-
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>This reminds me that when I was teaching in the schools, the third graders
>renamned the poussette figure in Knole Park  "shopping carts."

and this reminds me of hearing "first couple lead a cast" called "peel the
banana" - an excellent way of conveying that first couple start by turning
away from each other.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:51:33 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:51:37 -0500
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Message text written by Eric Arnold:
>...think of it as a half double figure-eight without the crosses.<

Priceless!  ROFL

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and amateur obfuscator
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. Beer" <jbintercultural-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Twas I that invented the term "loops" for Mulberry Garden.
Beginner dancers at Swarthmore respond quickly to it, but when
I've tried it with Germantown Country Dancers, the reaction has
been that it sounds too flippant and is not really an English
Country Dance term... So maybe if all you folks use it, it will
become "traditional" :-)

One of my favorite figure nicknames: Erna-Lynne's "sliding patio
doors" for Heidenroeslein or for Waterfall Waltz where you
chasse' past your neighbor (Though we thought she was saying
"Paddy O'Dor" the first time I heard it. I now say "sliding
doors" instead.)



=====

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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:08:46 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. Beer" <jbintercultural-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Twas I that invented the term "loops" for Mulberry Garden.
Beginner dancers at Swarthmore respond quickly to it, but when
I've tried it with Germantown Country Dancers, the reaction has
been that it sounds too flippant and is not really an English
Country Dance term... So maybe if all you folks use it, it will
become "traditional" :-)

One of my favorite figure nicknames: Erna-Lynne's "sliding patio
doors" for Heidenroeslein or for Waterfall Waltz where you
chasse' past your neighbor (Though we thought she was saying
"Paddy O'Dor" the first time I heard it. I now say "sliding
doors" instead.)



=====

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:32:21 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Folks --

I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.

For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
(Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
explicit description of casting and leading.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:34:36 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd from Anthony Heywood: Cast and Lead
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Emma wrote:

 and this reminds me of hearing "first couple lead a cast" called "peel the
 banana" - an excellent way of conveying that first couple start by turning
 away from each other.

I've used that.  Also, John Hertz's Regency dance booklet, The Tenor of
Terpsichore, describes the path followed in a cast off as semicardiodal -
that is, shaped like half a heart.  [But he's told me in person that the
phrasing there is a joke; he wouldn't expect a dancing-master to actually
say that aloud.]

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:45:37 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:53:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Shrinking Trends (was Re: Cast and Lead)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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--- Philippe Callens <Philippe.Callens-AT-
uia.ua.ac.be> wrote:
> Two years ago I heard Colin Hume call it "mini cast". I liked that
> term, short and
> useful, and started to use it, too, when I call in English.
> 

Oh no.  First it was "mini grand rights and lefts", now it's "mini
cast."  What next?  Figures of four?  A quarter of a figure of eight?
 Hey for one 1 1/2 across the set?  Up a single and back?

We already drive minivans, wear microfibers and drink microbrews. 
Where will this insane quest for minitiarization end?

=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:08:52 -0500 (EST)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.(eggbeaters)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 11/8/99 3:39:16 PM, winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes:

<< I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.

For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
(Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
explicit description of casting and leading. >>

Caution: The term "eggbeaters" is an invention of Fried Herman's that refers 
explicitly to a figure in her dance, "Face the Music" (tune, "Fiddlin" 
David", by the late Eric Scott for his band Hold the Mustard.) Instructions 
for the dance can be found in her book, Potters' Porch. The figure is 
characterized by 1st woman/second man & 1st man/second woman turning opp. 
(inside) hands simultaneously. The result is a sort of"gearing"—for lack of a 
better term-quality. (Gene help me out here! )The term is so closely 
identified with that dance, that it might be confusing to dancers familiar 
with Fried's work to hear it in another context.
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:41:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Shrinking Trends (was Re: Cast and Lead)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Barbara Ruth wrote:

[snip]

> Oh no.  First it was "mini grand rights and lefts", now it's "mini
> cast."  What next? . . .  Up a single and back?

We've already got that, in Elverton Grove...

Eric Arnold


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:43:43 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.(eggbeaters)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <01JI3FIGLPVS8ZDV9R-AT-
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Judy Grunberg writes:

  Caution: The term "eggbeaters" is an invention of Fried Herman's that refers 
  explicitly to a figure in her dance, "Face the Music" (tune, "Fiddlin" 
  David", by the late Eric Scott for his band Hold the Mustard.) Instructions 
  for the dance can be found in her book, Potters' Porch. The figure is 
  characterized by 1st woman/second man & 1st man/second woman turning opp. 
  (inside) hands simultaneously. The result is a sort of"gearing"—for lack of a 
  better term-quality. (Gene help me out here! )The term is so closely 
  identified with that dance, that it might be confusing to dancers familiar 
  with Fried's work to hear it in another context.

(1) The fact that using the term doesn't work to convey the idea that I want
will be enough to keep me from using it.  I'm quite sure that the reason it
doesn't work in the Bay Area is _not_ that they're thinking of a specific
figure from "Face the Music", which is not one of Fried's dances that's
commonly done out here.  ("The Wood Duck" seems to be #1, "Peace Be With You"
and "Michael and All Angels" are about tied, I've called "Astoria Lass" a  few
times here, there was a vogue a couple of years back for "The First Lady"
(which I've been calling lately - anybody have orientation hints for first
ladies to whom half-figure-8s aren't yet second nature? - and Jody McGeen
called "Cat in the Window" in San Jose last week.  Other material gets called
every so often, but I'm not sure that very much else sticks in the repertoire.
Hmm; I gotta call Bryan's Boutade one of these days.)

(2) Hmm, is this is an improper dance, or are half the people progressed at 
that point?  Otherwise those pairs turning could be messy.  It sounds kind of
like "The Corporation", although that's both improper so the two men turn and
the two women turn.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:56:59 -0500
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.
To: ECD-AT-
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Fried Herman has used "mini-cast" earlier in some dances.  Maybe she got it
elsewhere, too.

Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> Folks --
>
> I was impressed by the clarity of Philippe's use of "mini-cast" at
> Mendocino English Week, and have been using that with some success
> lately.  I didn't realize he'd gotten it from Colin.
>
> For some reason the figure irresistibly reminds me of an eggbeater.
> (Not the beater itself, but the flow of whatever you're mixing when
> you stick the two-bladed mixer into it and turn the crank or press
> the button.)  I do not expect this image, graphic it as is, to actually
> work when calling, but I sometimes use it anyway, in conjunction with
> explicit description of casting and leading.
>
> -- Alan
>
> ===============================================================================
>  Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
>  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
>  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
> ===============================================================================

--
Albert Blank


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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:07:10 PST
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From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
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Subject: Re: Cast and Lead etc.(eggbeaters)
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In response to Alan's and Judy's questions about Fried's "eggbeater" turns
in Face the Music:

Everyone's in home, duple proper place as long lines come forward.  One's
cast and face in, two's cross up the center and face out.  1st wo. and 2nd
man turn by the R-hand; 1st man and 2nd wo. turn by the L-hand.

It's a reverse one-quarter-double-figure-of-eight with-crossing
handy-hand-turn triple-toe-loop-sachow.  At least that's how I call it.

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, and maximalist Caller

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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:13:47 PST
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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:21:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
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Every so often (usually in the middle of a relevant dance) the
thought comes to me that the phrase "half of a double figure of
eight" actually means something intelligible to me.
It's scary.

--- Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com> wrote:
> Message text written by Eric Arnold:
> >...think of it as a half double figure-eight without the crosses.<
> 
> Priceless!  ROFL
> 
> Gene Murrow
> EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and amateur obfuscator
> 


=====
Barbara Ruth
New Haven, CT
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:19:17 PST
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Subject: Re: Eggbeaters
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"Eggbeaters" are a lovely variant of gates. In gates, both dancers side by 
side in line begin the figure facing in and holding inside hands, and the 
"post" moves back