Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 08:06:31 PST
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From: Howard Markham <hmarkham-AT-
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Subject: RE: small dances in the living room
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For the record, the name of the school is Potomac School, which is in
McLean, VA.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ecd-AT-
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[mailto:owner-ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU]On Behalf Of adpete-AT-
jps.net
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 8:44 AM
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Subject: small dances in the living room


> on Tue, 20 Apr 1999 "Lawrence N. Stout" <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>  wrote:
>
>Are there others who have the "small dances in the living room"
>experience in their backgrounds?  To what extent do the constraints of
>space affect our choices of what dances to do?  What kinds of dancing
>overlap with ECD elsewhere?  Are the English ceilidh, contra,
>international, and ECD communities overlapping in most places?


    My sister, Lyrl Ahern, and I started dancing in Accokeek, Maryland in
the home of Jack and Frances Wright. Jack had done international folk
dance at MIT while a student there.  Frances had been a teacher in
a settlement school in Kentucky and had accompanied groups of students
to the Spring Festival at Berea College. They wanted to dance and found
that the nearest dancing was 45 miles the other side of Washington, DC.
They had a large enough living room and began inviting the neighborhood
into their home on Saturday nights. We have family friends who lived
near the Wrights. One night when we were at our friends house for dinner
we kids went to the Wrights to dance after dinner. After that, any time we
were down there on Saturday night we went dancing
    We did dances to whatever recordings were available. They were mostly
 Playford, but there were also several CDM dances. We also did Danish
dance (it was part of the Berea program), a few morris dances and a couple
international dances. Frances played the piano for a few dances and I can
remember a local group of chamber musicians playing for us a few times.
I even pulled out the violin I hadn't touched in years and learned a few
tunes. Once a year a dance was held outdoors at the amphitheater down
the road.
     Jack and Frances made plans to take a group to the Spring Festival in

April of 1969. I was one of the group who were to go, but the draft got
in my way. By the time the draft reclassified me to 4-F for a medical
reason, I had already been replaced, so I did not go to Berea that year.
The last night before the group left for Berea, Lyrl and I accompanied
them to The McLean School in Virginia for an evening of ECD.
    This is the story of that dance series as I remember it:
Jack Langstaff had been a teacher at the school and had invited
May Gadd to come down once a month and teach ECD to the children.
She would stay and teach an adult group in the evening. I don't know
how many years she did this, but the 1968-69 school year, Gay had not
been well and Mary and John Owen from Baltimore had taken on the
running of the dance. They had been in the Berea College Dancers.
The night we went to The McLean School was the last time the dance
was held there. The next fall it started up again in a church in the
Baltimore suburbs.
    It was at that dance that I picked up a CDSS flyer about summer
camp at Pinewoods. Lyrl and I both decided to go and have been
hooked on ECD ever since.
    This summer will be 30 years since that first trip to Pinewoods.
It was truly an experience that changed my life.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 23:30:12 PST
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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 01:29:11 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <charlene-AT-
flash.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: small dances in the living room
To: ECD-AT-
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> on Tue, 20 Apr 1999 "Lawrence N. Stout" <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>  wrote:
>
> Are there others who have the "small dances in the living room"
> experience in their backgrounds?  To what extent do the constraints of
> space affect our choices of what dances to do?  What kinds of dancing
> overlap with ECD elsewhere?  Are the English ceilidh, contra,
> international, and ECD communities overlapping in most places?

I host an SCA dance practice in my living room.  We can fit a longways set of
8 couples or 3 sets of two-couples-facing if everyone is careful.  We do all
kinds of dance - longways, squares, rounds (which actually become ovals).

In some ways not having much room is helpful.  I find it much easier to teach
dances which require a tight set (such as Whirligig) in a room where the
dancers have no choice but to keep the set tight.  The downside is when I
dance at events where there's suddenly plenty of room -- I find it takes me
sometime to adjust to having to travel so much farther.

One night we had two sets that wanted to dance a longways for 3 couples dance
and rather than wait to repeat the dance they decided to put one set in the
kitchen.  Talk about *tight*!

Now, if only the living room were large enough for Italian balli -- those tend
to travel through the living room, sewing room, kitchen, and occasionally the
bedroom.  In other words, the whole house becomes fair game!

--Charlene

--
The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights.  -- J. Paul
Getty


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 05:45:01 PST
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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 08:44:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: small dances in the living room
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 "Lawrence N. Stout" <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>  wrote:

> Are there others who have the "small dances in the living room"
> experience in their backgrounds?  

We used to have the end of the year social in our living room and dining
room, an ell-shaped arrangment.  As you danced down the line, the 'head of
the set gradually rotated through 90 deg.  this phenomenon is OK if iit's
a longways, but we had to adjust when we sis Newcastle.  We finally just
accepted the fact that each set would have a different top of the room.

> To what extent do the constraints of
> space affect our choices of what dances to do?  

Obviously, dance with sweeping movements up and down the set (Dublin Bay)
or out to the wall can not be danced effectively.

> What kinds of dancing overlap with ECD elsewhere?  Are the English
ceilidh, contra, international, and ECD communities overlapping in most places?

The amount of overlap depends on the size of the community although at any
one time the 'new' English dancers may migrate from a single other dance
form, ie, thirty years ago our group formed out of a Scottish group that
had formed from an international group.  Since those early years, it has
been bolstered in numbers from contra groups, and now with the greying of
the grouup, from Scottish dancers again.

happy dancing,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:08:12 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 13:10:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: David.Millstone-AT-
VALLEY.NET (David Millstone)
Subject: Boxwood Consort
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <7917186-AT-
lyme.VALLEY.NET>
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In the recent flurry of sharing discographies, I don't recall seeing the
contents listed for this recording, so...

The Boxwood Consort
English Country Dance Music
BX 101

Round Pond
Female Saylor
Linda's Valse
Saint Martin's
Jack's Maggot
Jenny Pluck Pears
Margaret's Waltz / Farewell to Devon

Heartsease
Knole Park / Loxley Figure Eight
Sun Assembly
Trip to Paris
Draper's Gardens
Green Willow
John Tallis' Canon

David Millstone
Lebanon, NH
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:52:49 PST
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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 13:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  ECD Digest V1 #504
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 1/5/1999 3:00:10 pm, you wrote:

<<Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:05:06 -0400
From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
compuserve.com>
Subject: Curses...
Message-ID: <199904301107_MC2-7406-A6ED-AT-
compuserve.com>

"Work is the curse of the Dancing Classes", even if meant tongue-in- cheek,
needs an attitude adjustment BAAAAADLY! It's not the least bit funny - in
either direction!
>>

This is a parody of a standing English joke;  "Work is the curse of the 
drinking classes". Lighten up a bit!
										
				Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 13:45:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 16:44:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: JoAnne Rawls <ljrawls-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Special Moments, Cont'd
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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hotmail.com>
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Hello the List...
One of my 'special moments' occurs in Nonesuch, Version II. If all four 
dancers, after circling right, lean into the circle just a bit before 
falling back (not really a balance forward; just kind of a gathering 
together before separating) it produces the feeling of an ocean wave that 
has just reached its highest point on the beach and is receding back to the 
sea. Then, as the first corners do a slow cross with a half-gypsy, the 
'wave' feeling continues: surge, crest, and recede. When both corners are 
moving to the phrase of the music, they catch each other with their eyes 
just for a moment as they move around each other and fade back to place. 
Lovely! Of course, if your opposite corner has his head in the clouds and 
doesn't meet your eyes, all is lost.

JoAnne Rawls, who is counting the hours til she dances again...
Newport News, VA


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 20:21:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 20:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Living Room Dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>on Tue, 20 Apr 1999 "Lawrence N. Stout" <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu> wrote:
>
>Are there others who have the "small dances in the living room"
>experience in their backgrounds?  To what extent do the constraints > of 
>space affect our choices of what dances to do?  What kinds of dancing 
>overlap with ECD elsewhere?  Are the English ceilidh, contra,international, 
>and ECD communities overlapping in most > places?

I think that whenever Country Dancers assemble, it seems that a fiddle comes 
out, somebody produces cards, and the furniture gets dispatched. Over the 
years I have been to and hosted a fair number of these get-togethers. As I 
reflect on the mixed a variety of dances, both English & contra, I have to 
say that I preferred the set dances, like Prince William and Fandango. They 
are themselves containing to a small set, and therefore seem to fit better 
in smaller/cramped quarters.  (Squares would work well, for the same reason, 
but none of our circle called them.)

On an illustrative personal note: Some years ago I hosted a Christmas carol 
sing. After the singing ended, we cleared the decks for dancing. I had just 
met George Davis at one of Sol Weber's rounds parties two days before, and 
he had consented to come to this party, to accompany the carols on his 
viola. Once he saw these strange people rearranging furniture, he quickly 
whipped out his fiddle & trusty copy of Cole's 1000 Fiddle tunes. Irv Kass, 
calling from the platform above the sunken living room, turned to me & asked 
where I found this guy. I told him I didn't quite know, but I'd make sure I 
kept him around. And I did - I married him!

Margherita Modica Davis
     -Have fiddler, Will party


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:18:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 10:20:46 -0600
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: maypole dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b03b353791fddc9-AT-
[155.99.169.232]>
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Salt Lake ECD is having a maypole dance this Thursday, if the rain ever
stops.  Yes, I know Mayday is past, but we meet on 1st and 3rd Thursdays.
My question is, does anyone know any maypole dances other than the four we
do already.

The first is the simplest possible.  Everyone holds a ribbon, and walks
around the pole, giving a candystripe effect.

The second: Everyone holds a ribbon and faces a neighbour.  Weave in and
out, as for a grand chain without hands.  This gives a criss-cross woven
effect.

The third:  Alternate ribbon-holders stand close to the maypole, with their
backs to it.  The others are on the perimeter.  Note who has the next
ribbons to yours.  Outer people go around the pole.  When they reach their
original spot, outer people go in, inner people go out.  These new outer
people go around the pole to their original spot, and go in, while inner
people go out.  This gives a very attractive herringbone weave.

The fourth:  Everyone holds a ribbon and faces a neighbour.  To a graceful
tune (we use waltzes), back to back your neighbour and pass by right
shoulder.  Back to back the next and pass by.  Keep on until the ribbon is
used up, which happens quickly.  The pattern this time is more of an open
tent effect, as the ribbons do not hug the pole.

All these dances are done forwards, to make the pattern, then reversed to
unwind.

They dances are very simple, but because the maypole attracts a lot of
beginners and small children (that's why we do it) we often get glitches in
the patterns.  In that case it is necessary to watch carefully as the dance
unwinds, or you end up with another tangle.

Does anybody know any other dances?  Is there a source of dances?  Are
there any that are more challenging, or that have more interest in the
dance itself?  Does anyone else do a regular Maypole dance?

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:51:53 PST
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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 13:00:11 -0400
From: gaff-AT-
neu.edu (Terence Gaffney)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: maypole dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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>  Does anyone else do a regular Maypole dance?
>
>Emma
>
In the Boston area, it's traditional to be down on the Cambridge side of
the Charles River at dawn on Mayday. Morris dancing, singing, some ECD and
Maypole dancing are all done to bring in the May. This year the weather was
great--a cloudless sky, all quiet, with a full moon over the Charles.
We used the second variant of Emma's list for the Maypole. First time went
without a hitch winding and unwinding, but there was a tangle on the second
run.

It's amusing that though the first Maypole in the Boston area was errected
in Quincy in the early 1600's, and was promptly cut down by the Puritain
leaders of the time, the tradition has been flourishing in modern Boston
for the last 40 years or so.
Best,
 terry


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:54:30 PST
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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 12:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Quale <quale-AT-
cs.swarthmore.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: maypole dances
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 3 May 1999, Emma Rushton wrote:
> Does anybody know any other dances?  Is there a source of dances?  Are
> there any that are more challenging, or that have more interest in the
> dance itself?  Does anyone else do a regular Maypole dance?

at swarthmore college, we dance the maypole (almost) every year for
spring parents weekend at the folk dance club demonstration.  for the past
ten-plus years, we've been doing a five-weave dance to christchurch bells.

in short, the weaves are grand chain (the first you mention), a simple
running weave (women step in, run cw while men run ccw, then reverse to
places), spider-web weave (the fourth you mention), a couple weave
(couples doing a grand chain weave), and the "grand weave".  

the grand weave has the 16 divide into two facing lines of 8, which march
forward, people passing the person directly across by the right shoulder,
continuing in lines to where the opposite line began, and then splitting,
each half marching a quarter around the circle to meet another half,
forming new lines of 8 ninety degrees off from the old lines.  this
manuever happens 8 times total, which ends the dance (it's nearly
impossible to undo while dancing!).

introducing and between the weaves we have choruses of up a double and
back, slipping in and out, siding, arming, and circling 16-hands round and
back.

if you want further details on the timing/choreography of the grand weave
or other parts, email me. 

i've heard tell of an older traditional swarthmore maypole dance, which
was set up like two sets of dargasson at right angles, with pole at the
center.  i haven't found instructions yet, though.  if anyone out there
has seen or remembers this dance, please contact me!  i'd love to revive
it once i learn it.

--will

Will's Hole in the Web		     http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale
Folk Dance Club's Page	       http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale/dance

			"Faith manages." -- Delenn

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:32:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: MartinezPC-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Keeping the fiddler (was Living Room Dances)
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SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In a message dated 5/2/99 11:22:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
margheritad-AT-
hotmail.com writes:

"Once he(George Davis) saw these strange people rearranging furniture, he 
quickly 
 whipped out his fiddle & trusty copy of Cole's 1000 Fiddle tunes. Irv Kass, 
 calling from the platform above the sunken living room, turned to me & asked 
 where I found this guy. I told him I didn't quite know, but I'd make sure I 
 kept him around. And I did - I married him!"
 
Margherita, how lucky for all of us that you went to such devious lengths!

Carol Martinez
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:48:34 PST
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Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:47:12 -0400
From: Peter Fricke <Peter.Fricke-AT-
noaa.gov>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Maypole dancing...
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Shepherdstown Music and Dance revived a May celebration in Shepherdstown, WV in
1993... thought we were starting something new, but some old codgers (slightly
older than me) remembered Maypole dancing in the 1930s in the town at the
College buildings.  Has a Maypole dance (Emma's #2), Morris dancing (NW, Border
and Cotswold dances by local and visiting teams), poetry readings, music,
plough-play, clogging and ECD (to music by a country/western band this year),
speeches (short) by the Mayor and other worthies.  Lots of kids stuff (including
NW by the Morris Minors team) and about 300 or more in the crowd on the College
lawn, plus others to watch the parade down German Street (main street) before
the event.


Peter Fricke
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:24:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 18:10:48 -0700
From: Jim Mieczkowski <cait-AT-
snet.net>
Subject: Re: Living Room Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Margherita Davis wrote:
> 
> >on Tue, 20 Apr 1999 "Lawrence N. Stout" <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Are there others who have the "small dances in the living room"
> >experience in their backgrounds?  To what extent do the constraints > of
> >space affect our choices of what dances to do?  What kinds of dancing
> >overlap with ECD elsewhere?  Are the English ceilidh, contra,international,
> >and ECD communities overlapping in most > places?
> 
> I think that whenever Country Dancers assemble, it seems that a fiddle comes
> out, somebody produces cards, and the furniture gets dispatched. Over the
> years I have been to and hosted a fair number of these get-togethers. As I
> reflect on the mixed a variety of dances, both English & contra, I have to
> say that I preferred the set dances, like Prince William and Fandango. They
> are themselves containing to a small set, and therefore seem to fit better
> in smaller/cramped quarters.  (Squares would work well, for the same reason,
> but none of our circle called them.)
> 
> On an illustrative personal note: Some years ago I hosted a Christmas carol
> sing. After the singing ended, we cleared the decks for dancing. I had just
> met George Davis at one of Sol Weber's rounds parties two days before, and
> he had consented to come to this party, to accompany the carols on his
> viola. Once he saw these strange people rearranging furniture, he quickly
> whipped out his fiddle & trusty copy of Cole's 1000 Fiddle tunes. Irv Kass,
> calling from the platform above the sunken living room, turned to me & asked
> where I found this guy. I told him I didn't quite know, but I'd make sure I
> kept him around. And I did - I married him!
> 
> Margherita Modica Davis
>      -Have fiddler, Will party
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Margherita, we enjoyed your story about how you and George met. It
warmed our hearts in this cold and damp May weather! Hope to see you in
the near future. Cathy and Jim
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:29:09 PST
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Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 23:27:47 +0100
From: Margaret Whaley <mdwhaley-AT-
mdwhaley.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #504
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Graham Knight wrote:

"Work is the curse of the Dancing classes"

Hanny Budnick wrote:
>
>"Work is the curse of the Dancing Classes", even if meant tongue-in- cheek,
>needs an attitude adjustment BAAAAADLY! It's not the least bit funny - in
>either direction!

What DO you mean??? - It's a splendid quote!!!!!!!
>>>
>
Nic Broadbridge wrote:

>This is a parody of a standing English joke;  "Work is the curse of the 
>drinking classes". Lighten up a bit!

Here! Here!
                
The originaI quote, I believe, is from Karl Marx (Das Kapital??)

Anyway, I second Graham and Nic - It's certainly a sentiment I agree
with!
>                                               
>                               

-- 
Margaret Whaley
Oxfordshire

"Another 'worker' who would rather be dancing."
================================================================================
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Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 23:27:47 +0100
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Graham Knight wrote:

"Work is the curse of the Dancing classes"

Hanny Budnick wrote:
>
>"Work is the curse of the Dancing Classes", even if meant tongue-in- cheek,
>needs an attitude adjustment BAAAAADLY! It's not the least bit funny - in
>either direction!

What DO you mean??? - It's a splendid quote!!!!!!!
>>>
>
Nic Broadbridge wrote:

>This is a parody of a standing English joke;  "Work is the curse of the 
>drinking classes". Lighten up a bit!

Here! Here!
                
The originaI quote, I believe, is from Karl Marx (Das Kapital??)

Anyway, I second Graham and Nic - It's certainly a sentiment I agree
with!
>                                               
>                               

-- 
Margaret Whaley
Oxfordshire

"Another 'worker' who would rather be dancing."
================================================================================
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_______________________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:25:28 PST
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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:19:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Re: dances of the millenium (fwd)
To: English Dance Maillist <ECD-AT-
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I forwarded the thoughts on millennium dances to John Uhlemann, who knows 
more about European folk-dancing than anyone has a right to without a 
PhD, and here was his response.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:41:39 EDT
To: pstamler-AT-
crl.com
Subject: Re: Re: dances of the millennium (fwd)

the Bransle (a.k.a. branle) is indeed French.  A form was known in Elizbethan 
England as the "Brawl" (oh, those quaint British).  Giles Farnaby has one in 
the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, "Worcester Brawls".
   She overdoes the 3-measure pan-European dance, too.  It is true that many 
Bulgarian, Macedonian and Albanian dnaces, as well as a few Greek (though 
most not) dances, are in 3-measure form, but despite knowning a LOT of 
Serbian dances, I don't know any that are in 3-measures.  Further, the basic 
dance of the middle east , the Halay (Turkish)/Depki (Arab) is in 3 measures, 
and goes to the right, as do all the 3-measure dances done in lands formerly 
under Turkist rule in the Balkans.  Croatian dances go to the left, as do the 
few remaining line dances of western Europe.  Langdans, by the way, is not in 
3 measures.  I suspect the 3-measure structure IS some sort of Universal, 
though, despite all this.  I think the Turkish and west European traditions 
are just a running together of something that may be incredibly older.  It 
certainly predates the time when a lot of the music arose for these dances 
now, most of which is in 4 or 8 measures.  The reason there are no dances in 
the East in this structre is that thereare essentially no communal/SOCIAL 
dances in those cultures, even where there are a lot of art dances , 
religious dances, etc.  Even in the Pacific islands, group dances are done 
free style and have no foot pattern structure, even when there is a highly 
complex series of arm movements. The same is true in Africa, which is why 
Blacks had to wait until they got here to invent tapdancing.

[With contributions to the latter from Irish railroad workers. - PJS]
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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:10:30 -0400
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One permutation has been omitted, "Drink is the curse of the dancing
class",
which was brought home to me the first time I had a beer just before
dancing
and discovered my legs had gotten oh, so much heavier.  I long ago
noticed 
that those exiting from Folk Music Week were (on the average)
significantly 
weightier than those arriving for the following dance week.  Beer
consumption
as well as exercise is probably a factor in this, since dancers seem to
imbibe 
less (with the exception of Morris dancers, of course, who defy all
categories.)



++++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
++++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++++++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
++++++     and assorted musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com 
+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:53:41 PST
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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:54:21 -0700
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: One permutation, then another
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Sol  posted that one permutation had been omitted-- that "drink is the
curse of the dancing class." 

This reminds me that when my husband and I were in England we went to a
nearby town which was supposed to be having a performance of Morris dancing
at 10:30 AM.  At 11:00 we got discouraged, and started back toward our car.
 But just as we were leaving, at about 11:30  we heard bells, followed our
ears, and the found the dancers who were just ariving. 

"When do you think the performance will actually start" I asked, since it
was already an hour behind schedule and we wondered if we should wait or go.  

"Oh," the dancer answered, "in a couple of pints." and veered left into the
doorway of a nearby pub. I hadn't known how Morris dancers reckoned time
before this. 

In this setting, drink is 'of course' to the dancing lasses.  

While at Mendocino English Week, the necessity of a pub stop before the
stick-bashing Morris dance-out demonstrates that drink is the cause of the
dancers' clashes.  

(Oh is THAT what they mean when they shout "higher"? )  

In Greece there is a tradition of holding a glass of ouzo or wine between
the teeth while dancing, emptying it down the throat  without using the
hands to touch the glass, and without missing any steps, then flinging the
glass into the fireplace, smashing it.  In that setting, dance is the curse
of the drinker's glasses.

Vicky 

 At 05:10 PM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>One permutation has been omitted, "Drink is the curse of the dancing
>class",
>which was brought home to me the first time I had a beer just before
>dancing
>and discovered my legs had gotten oh, so much heavier.  I long ago
>noticed 
>that those exiting from Folk Music Week were (on the average)
>significantly 
>weightier than those arriving for the following dance week.  Beer
>consumption
>as well as exercise is probably a factor in this, since dancers seem to
>imbibe 
>less (with the exception of Morris dancers, of course, who defy all
>categories.)
>
>
>
>++++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
>++++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
>++++++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
>++++++     and assorted musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com 
>+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone.
>
>

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:23:07 PST
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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Living Room Dances
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Lawrence N. Stout <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu> wrote:

 >Are there others who have the "small dances in the living room"
 >experience in their backgrounds? To what extent do the
 >constraints of space affect our choices of what dances to do?...

Although I cannot draw a specific answer to the question from it,
I would hate to see this thread wind down without some mention of
the dances we used to have in the living room of Justine and Byron
Buck in Ridgewood, NJ on Summer Sunday evenings following the
afternoon dances in the pavilion at the Alpine Boat Basin. After
an incredible Pot luck supper, English country, contra, and
couples dances. Always a band of 4 or 5 around the piano. I didn't
choose the dances (I was usually in the band), but I think I can
safely say that we didn't do too many Sicilian circles.

We'll see many of you in Hartford Saturday.

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:25:38 PST
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Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: World Not Ending in New Haven
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Although May has arrived, and the New Haven English dance series
graced with the sterling musicianship of Marshall Barron, Grace
Feldman, Margaret Ann Martin et al. and calling by Andreas Haydn has
packed it up for the summer, (and indeed the musicians have
literally packed up and are off in England with the English Dance
tour, having a marvelous time no doubt), all is not sorrow in New
Haven.  The New Haven Country Dancers is once more stepping in to
fill the English dance summer gap, with our third summer of English
Dances at the Branford Community Center in Branford, Connecticut. 

These dances feature well-known Connecticut caller Helen Davenport,
leader of Reel Nutmeg (who can be heard calling tomorrow evening at
the Hartford Ball) and New Haven's own Peggy Vermilya, who did such
a wonderful job as MC of the first New Haven ECD Ball in January,
and an assortment of musicians including Willow Sirch, Paul McGuire,
Norb Spencer, Peter Corbridge, Marnon Laibow-Koser and others . . .

The schedule is:

Friday May 21, 1999    Helen Davenport
Friday, June 4, 1999      Peggy Vermilya
Friday, June 18, 1999  Helen Davenport
Friday, July 9, 1999      Helen Davenport

Dances run from 8:15 -11:00 p.m with an introductory workshop for
new dancers at 7:45 p.m. (yes, the timing is odd, but this way we
don't overlap with the karate class, which would make for an
interesting evening, certainly).  Admission $8.00

The Branford Community Center, is at 46 Church St, Branford, CT. 
Directions below*

The same information, but with pictures, can be found at our web site
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~bfr4/NH.English.html, and for information
on NHCD *Contra Dances* visit  http://www.nhcc.com/henry/dance

Those who will be attending the Hartford Ball tomorrow can pick up
paper fliers there.

I hope to see some of you in Branford this summer.

Barbara Ruth

*Directions.  Exit 54 off I-95, Cedar St. to Main St. (just before
Branford Green).  Left onto Main,  immediate right fork onto South
Main, right turn onto Eades St., two blocks to the parking lot of
the Center.


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:59:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 04:56:11 -0400
From: Colin Hume <100116.165-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Anglo-American Dance in Letchworth
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            Staplers Country Dance Club cordially invite you to an

                           ANGLO-AMERICAN DANCE

                     Saturday June 5th 1999, 7.30-11pm
The Free Church Hall, Gernon Road, Letchworth, Hertfordshire, England.

Calling by  SUSAN  KEVRA  and  COLIN HUME.  Music by  KNOTTED CHORD.
Admission 5 pounds (Please bring a plate of food to share.)
For details phone: 01462 730497 or 01462 440779.

============================================================================

Sorry about all you Americans who won't be able to get there!  Susan and I will
both be calling English and American, and both playing in the band.  How's that
for versatility?!  This is Susan's first trip to England, and her only calling
engagement in the UK; in case you don't know her, she's a great caller and
great fun too.

Colin Hume
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:59:44 PST
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Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:59:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dances of the millenium
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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Hello to all interested in dance history:

The idea of 'dances of the millenium is a good one.' The problem will be
to keep it the size of one concert!  Also to balance Eastern and Western
worlds.

The discussion on the branle was right but wrong.  Vicky Bestock mistakes
the branle, a large inclusive dance type of the line-circle genre, for the
specific Branle simple given by Arbeau.  This is simply overstating the
case for one little dance. Best to include various kinds of branle,
including those to uneven meters. There's no question in my mind that
line-circle dances from various periods and geographic areas should be
included in your program.

For the 16th century, my choice would also fall on the galliard.  If you
really want to put together a real-life program, may I suggest you consult
Charles Garth on the galliard for teaching it?

Julia Sutton







On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Jonathan Sivier wrote:

>    I'm thinking of organizing an event next year (2000) with the theme
> "Dances of the Millenium" which will consist of leading (and in some cases
> possibly demonstrating) some of the more influential dances of the past
> 1000 years.  I have the start of a list of dances to consider, but I thought
> I would send out an inquiry and get the benefit of the collective knowledge
> of dancers from all over the world.  Please respond (by followup article or
> email) with your thoughts on which dances should be included in an event of
> this sort.  If you have references for dance instructions and music that
> would be helpful as well.
> 
>    Thanks.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
> |  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
> |  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
> |  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
> |  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
> |  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
> |  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
> |  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:59:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:59:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dances of the millenium
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Hello to all interested in dance history:

The idea of 'dances of the millenium is a good one.' The problem will be
to keep it the size of one concert!  Also to balance Eastern and Western
worlds.

The discussion on the branle was right but wrong.  Vicky Bestock mistakes
the branle, a large inclusive dance type of the line-circle genre, for the
specific Branle simple given by Arbeau.  This is simply overstating the
case for one little dance. Best to include various kinds of branle,
including those to uneven meters. There's no question in my mind that
line-circle dances from various periods and geographic areas should be
included in your program.

For the 16th century, my choice would also fall on the galliard.  If you
really want to put together a real-life program, may I suggest you consult
Charles Garth on the galliard for teaching it?

Julia Sutton







On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Jonathan Sivier wrote:

>    I'm thinking of organizing an event next year (2000) with the theme
> "Dances of the Millenium" which will consist of leading (and in some cases
> possibly demonstrating) some of the more influential dances of the past
> 1000 years.  I have the start of a list of dances to consider, but I thought
> I would send out an inquiry and get the benefit of the collective knowledge
> of dancers from all over the world.  Please respond (by followup article or
> email) with your thoughts on which dances should be included in an event of
> this sort.  If you have references for dance instructions and music that
> would be helpful as well.
> 
>    Thanks.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
> |  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
> |  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
> |  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
> |  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
> |  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
> |  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
> |  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

================================================================================
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Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 22:20:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  clapping
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Greetings all.

I'm just back from a three week trip (on which I did many entertaining things 
but danced not one step) and catching up. Steve Corrsin said

>But ultimately it comes down to flogging dead horses. Now, if only those
>folks could *flog* in time to the music...

Whole different set of skills, Steve.  Not what you want on the dance floor.  
Trust me.

Nilos Nevertheless
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Folks --

For those who have been following the saga for two years (or those who've
read it in the archive):

I just called my third evening in Arcata, on the North Coast of California.
The first time, I learned that just because they contra dance every month,
that doesn't mean they're ready for Irish Lamentation or Female Saylor, but
because they do international dance a lot, they _like_ to rant.

[The difference between Arcata and, say, San Jose, as far as English dancing 
goes: Assuming you do Bonny Breast Knot as a step-hop (and I was interested to
find out from Colin Hume that that's an Americanism), in San Jose, they have no
problem with the pattern but don't want to do the step-hop, but in Arcata,
they're happy to try the step-hop but the pattern's too hard, especially contra
corners.  [Especially if, despite half of your couple borrowed for a remedial
demo, you still insist on starting the contra corners by arming left with your
partner instead of right.]

So this time, they asked me to do a mainstream ECD workshop in the afternoon
and an English barn dance in the evening.  (When no musicians proved available
in the afternoon, I needed to resort to recordings - thus, the frantic request
for playlists a couple of weeks ago.)  I've done workshops the previous two
times, getting 12 and 16 people, respectively.  It surprised both the
organizers and me when nobody showed up for the workshop at all.  Not one
person.  So after forty-five minutes we went out and had a beer.

The barn dance, as I keep reminding myself, was a success in all important
fronts.  People really enjoyed themselves and they got exhausted.  I was mildly
surprised that some people I saw for the third time, people who contra dance
regularly, _still_ don't understand duple minor progression, and after, say,
casting off one couple, will try to dance as 2s with the same couple they 
were just dancing with as 1s.  Oh, and nobody understands, even when it's
demonstrated, that doing something on the last beat of the phrase isn't the
same as doing it on the first beat of the next phrase.  But they liked it.
So some dances took a lot of repair, and I got hoarse.


Here's the program as danced:

Durham Reel (mostly follow the leader; I grabbed the girl who declined to
             get a partner and join the set because she didn't know how to
             do this stuff and made her my partner; she kept dancing through
             the rest of the evening. Yay!)

Galopede
Dorset Triumph  (I ran the dance 15 minutes, and by the end, people were 
                 mostly getting it.  But it took a lot of patching.)

Bonny Breast Knot ("What do you mean, split the women?"  "Before you go on,
                  will you watch our set do the whole dance and tell us if 
                  it's right?  Ran it three times, fixed some stuff, ran it 
                  six times more, people said "Awww" when it stopped, ran it
                  three times more.  I would have gotten lynched in San Jose.)

BREAK (seventy minutes to do those four dances, yikes; having learned my lesson
last time, I pushed people to get started again after ten minutes, and had
it together by 9:35.)

Right and Left Polka  (band has an Irish polka set that sizzles)
Nottingham Swing      (some people have timing problems with this)
Circle Waltz          (Advertised as cool-down dance)
Twelve Meet           (Taught hey-for-three; had to push band to go fast
                       enough, but it got good.  Two squares.)
Haste to the Wedding  (Recovery dance.)
Margaret's Waltz      (Ladies' chain was so hard one couple just quit and
                      went home.)
                       


A suggestion for everybody else:  Have Right and Left Polka (Anne Welch, 
in the Ring O Bells Barn Dance book), Circle Waltz (CDM), and Nottingham
Swing (multiple places) in your bag if you're going to be dealing with 
beginners.  The first two actually worked with drunken behaviorial ecologists
in Monterey, and they worked very well in Arcata, too.

Oh, and part of the reason I post this stuff is that I'm interested in other
people's triumphs, tragedies, and amusing calling anecdotes.  Please share!

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:12:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 05:14:25 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v03007800b35c52700194-AT-
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At 1:06 AM -0700 5/10/99, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
>Folks --
>
>For those who have been following the saga for two years (or those who've
>read it in the archive):
>
>I just called my third evening in Arcata, on the North Coast of California.


>Margaret's Waltz      (Ladies' chain was so hard one couple just quit and
>                      went home.)

These people surely were not contra dancers?



The whole thing sounds like a struggle to me.  I'm glad you're trying, but
it sounds like really hard work there.

How does it feel to you?



                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:38:35 PST
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Emily quoted me:
>Folks --
>
>For those who have been following the saga for two years (or those who've
>read it in the archive):
>
>I just called my third evening in Arcata, on the North Coast of California.


>Margaret's Waltz      (Ladies' chain was so hard one couple just quit and
>                      went home.)

and wrote:


>These people surely were not contra dancers?


I don't honestly know.  I was dancing in the set - my girlfriend had driven
up with me, and we'd had no couple dances scheduled, and she likes
Margaret's - so my back was to that side of the ring when I called ladies'
chain, and  when I looked again, we had nine couples instead of the ten
we'd started with,  one couple was standing looking confused, and the other
two (who were both  youngish women, incidentally) were putting their
sweaters on and starting  for the door.  I just called "ladies' chain", not
"two women turn by the right hand and give left hands to the men, who take
them with their left hands, take right hands at the woman's waist, and
swoop them around in a courtesy turn," because I thought they _were_ contra
dancers.  (Incidentally, the high point of the dance was about 60 dancers,
and it thinned a bit at the break and quite a bit after R&L Polka, so we
had two sets and six people sitting out for "Twelve Meet", and were down 
to 20 dancing the last dance.  They tell me this is very common; people get
tired and go home before the end.  Not what I'm used to.)



>The whole thing sounds like a struggle to me.  I'm glad you're trying, but
>it sounds like really hard work there.

>How does it feel to you?

Since you ask:

I feel like I earn my money.  They pay a flat fee of $100 for out-of-town
callers; in this case I converted that plus a free-night certificate from
Stash Tea into two nights at a very nice B&B for me and my girlfriend, so 
it made for quite a nice weekend.  

I feel like I'm learning quite a bit from all this, including what to let
go of, when not to panic, and how to program for uncertainty, especially 
given the constraint of a band that wants a set list in advance and doesn't
feel comfortable just playing something they've never seen before out of
Barnes.  I've been getting a better idea about calling for beginners or
permanent beginners.  I also think that I'm eventually going to have enough
absolutely surefire dances and enough experience that I could go back to
the drunken-but-interested behavioral ecologists, or a like group, and give
them an evening I'd be proud of.  (That goal probably also involves buying
a wireless headset mike.) I'm also trying to learn to feel thoroughly
successful if the dancers had a good time, even if I feel that I worked so
hard that I must not have planned well enough.

At the end of the evening, my feelings were pretty mixed.  (And my throat
hurt.)  But it's getting to be less of a struggle, as I get a better handle
on what this group wants and needs, and there are some nice rewards. 

I neglected to mention that a couple of women came up to me and said, after
an evening where I'd chosen simple dances and chosen to run them long
enough for everyone to get them, that they appreciated my choosing simple
dances and running them long enough for everyone to get them, and that
they'd had a wonderful time.  That felt pretty good.

-- Alan



===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
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-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Seligmann <Madmax9-AT-
bigpond.com>
To: ECD Mailing List <ECD -AT-
 PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <ECD Mailing List <ECD -AT-
 PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>>
Date: Monday, 10 May 1999 21:12
Subject: Connection to List 


This is a test message.
 
Please let me know if it is received by the list.
 
Matthew


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-----Original Message-----</B><BR><B>From: 
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bigpond.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: </B>ECD 
Mailing List &lt;ECD -AT-
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&lt;ECD -AT-
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Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 05:26:06 PST
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:18:56 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: winston-AT-
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At 2:38 AM -0700 5/10/99, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
<<The first time, I learned that just because they contra dance every month,
that doesn't mean they're ready for Irish Lamentation or Female Saylor, but
>because they do international dance a lot, they _like_ to rant.>>

Way to GO!

>At the end of the evening, my feelings were pretty mixed.  (And my throat
>hurt.)  But it's getting to be less of a struggle, as I get a better handle
>on what this group wants and needs, and there are some nice rewards.


What an interesting experience Alan.  Are you un-miked for this?

If this group really enjoys doing dances over and over again (I 
couldn't help think - how ceildah like?) perhaps it's worth the time 
to really walk things through over and over again before the music 
starts and do fewer dances?  That way they could hopefully learn the 
dance. Perhaps they can't hear you calling once the music starts so 
it would be hard to fix things on the fly even if they were willing. 
And I think that especially beginners have a harder time listening to 
calls once the dancing begins.

Gradually they could build up a repertoire (even of figures) and 
would need less prompting. Sounds like you could program some 
lengthier instructional periods in between longer dance sets  and 
folks would be happy.  This is vaguely reminding me of years ago 
dancing with Dudley Laufmann.  At the time I remember thinking that 
the instruction went on forever, but then so did the dancing.

Don't have any calling experience to back this up, so it's just my two cents.

Mary Beth <-- promoting ranting on all counts!

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:55:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Mon, 10 May 1999, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:

> >Margaret's Waltz      (Ladies' chain was so hard one couple just quit and
> >                      went home.)
> 
> >These people surely were not contra dancers?
> 
> I don't honestly know.  I was dancing in the set - my girlfriend had driven
> up with me, and we'd had no couple dances scheduled, and she likes
> Margaret's - so my back was to that side of the ring when I called ladies'
> chain, and  when I looked again, we had nine couples instead of the ten
> we'd started with,  one couple was standing looking confused, and the other
> two (who were both  youngish women, incidentally) were putting their
> sweaters on and starting  for the door.

Had there been a problem in the walk-through? Ladies' chain is the most 
basic of contra moves; it sounds to me like these were not 
contra-dancers. Among other things, regular contra-dancers would know 
better than to leave a set for any reason short of a coronary.

>  I just called "ladies' chain", not
> "two women turn by the right hand and give left hands to the men, who take
> them with their left hands, take right hands at the woman's waist, and
> swoop them around in a courtesy turn," because I thought they _were_ contra
> dancers.  (Incidentally, the high point of the dance was about 60 dancers,
> and it thinned a bit at the break and quite a bit after R&L Polka, so we
> had two sets and six people sitting out for "Twelve Meet", and were down 
> to 20 dancing the last dance.  They tell me this is very common; people get
> tired and go home before the end.  Not what I'm used to.)

It's become pretty common at contras around here, especially since we 
dance on Sunday nights, and people need to get to work the next morning.
 
Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:33:00 +0100
From: Thomas Green <thomas.green-AT-
ndirect.co.uk>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
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On 10/5/99 at 8:46 am, Paul J. Stamler <pstamler-AT-
crl.com> wrote:

> Among other things, regular contra-dancers would know 
> better than to leave a set for any reason short of a coronary.

I thought even having a coronary only justified you in becoming a ghost to
help out at the ends - not leaving the set.

Thomas
----
T. R. G. Green                    also at:
preferred postal address:           Computer-Based Learning Unit
Oriel House, 27 Allerton Park,      University of Leeds
Leeds LS7 4ND, U.K.                 Leeds LS9 2JT, U.K. 

0113-226-6687 (tel)
0113-226-2751 (fax)
http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~thomas.green


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:29:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" <pburrage-AT-
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On Mon, 10 May 1999, Matthew Seligmann wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Seligmann <Madmax9-AT-
bigpond.com>
> To: ECD Mailing List <ECD -AT-
 PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <ECD Mailing List <ECD -AT-
 PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>>
> Date: Monday, 10 May 1999 21:12
> Subject: Connection to List 
> 
> 
> This is a test message.
>  
> Please let me know if it is received by the list.

The only way I can read you message easily is to reply to you.  Then it is
printed out.  Usually I just hit delete when I get those special messages.  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Priscilla Burrage       Vermont US
(pburrage-AT-
zoo.uvm.edu)
                         

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:54:04 PST
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:51:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
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Hello Alan:

I've had the experience of calling the Arcata contra dance twice.  No time 
now to give your plea for shared experiences its due, but I hope to oblige 
soon...

Reine Wonite 
Chico, CA
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:38:11 PST
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:37:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, MGOODMAN-AT-
ALBANY.NET
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Mary Beth --


>At 2:38 AM -0700 5/10/99, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
><<The first time, I learned that just because they contra dance every month,
>that doesn't mean they're ready for Irish Lamentation or Female Saylor, but
>>because they do international dance a lot, they _like_ to rant.>>

>Way to GO!

I fully meant to call Roxburgh Castle, which has gone over well on both 
previous visits, but I just couldn't make it fit this time.

>>At the end of the evening, my feelings were pretty mixed.  (And my throat
>>hurt.)  But it's getting to be less of a struggle, as I get a better handle
>>on what this group wants and needs, and there are some nice rewards.


>What an interesting experience Alan.  Are you un-miked for this?

There is a microphone, and a 'stage' raised about six inches off the 
floor.  With fifty-sixty people, I don't usually need a mike, and here I
find I need to get out on the floor and demo, and sometimes run over
and fix problems in longways sets where they're happening - (eg, 
point and say "you're with THAT couple"). And with step-hop or rant
dances, I like to step along with the music while the dance is going,
mostly because I enjoy it but also because I've been told that it 
sends the message that I enjoy it and encourages the dancers to enjoy
it too, and that won't work well on the little stage with the mike.


>If this group really enjoys doing dances over and over again (I 
>couldn't help think - how ceildah like?) perhaps it's worth the time 
>to really walk things through over and over again before the music 
>starts and do fewer dances?  That way they could hopefully learn the 
>dance. Perhaps they can't hear you calling once the music starts so 
>it would be hard to fix things on the fly even if they were willing. 
>And I think that especially beginners have a harder time listening to 
>calls once the dancing begins.

The contra-dance people, one of the organizers says, are really used to 
having the entire dance called for them over and over again, so they 
don't build the skill of getting the dance into short-term memory.  Since
my goal is to get everybody doing the dance right and then shut up, this
makes for problems.

>Gradually they could build up a repertoire (even of figures) and 
>would need less prompting. Sounds like you could program some 
>lengthier instructional periods in between longer dance sets  and 
>folks would be happy.  This is vaguely reminding me of years ago 
>dancing with Dudley Laufmann.  At the time I remember thinking that 
>the instruction went on forever, but then so did the dancing.

My problems with this approach are threefold: (1) I'm only there once a 
year, so very little sticks, although I at least recognize faces and know
that some of the same dancers come back.  (2) When I was up there the first
time, I did extensive, extensive, walkthroughs until I thought everyone had
the dances and (a) the organizers wanted more time dancing, less time 
teaching and (b) it didn't seem to help, and (3) it's not a class, and,
especially with barn dance material, it mostly doesn't matter if they don't do
it absolutely right, although that last point is something I keep needing
to learn myself. So I end up just thinking of the first five times through
the dance as an extended walkthrough.  But I'd seriously consider doing this
approach if I were kickstarting a monthly class.


Yours,

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:01:59 PST
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:00:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: S2LINEN-AT-
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yes mathew it was re'd

Sandra  cd*ny
================================================================================
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:36:36 -0400
From: Michael S Franch <franch-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: Fw: Connection to List
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osborne>

I got your message.
Mike Franch
Balto.Md.

___________________________________________________________________
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Archive-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:43:21 PST
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:41:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: LIBWaltz-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The floggings will continue until morale improves
To: ECD-AT-
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Steve C. and Nilos wrote:
>But ultimately it comes down to flogging dead horses. Now, if only those
>folks could *flog* in time to the music...
>>Whole different set of skills, Steve.  Not what you want on the dance 
floor.  
>>Trust me. - Nilos Nevertheless

These must be the skills responsible for the epidemic of "the clap" we've 
been  experiencing.

The ongoing discussion reminds me of my junior high and high school Saturday 
evenings, spent happily in the "teenage folk dance class" at Michael and 
MaryAnn Herman's Folk Dance House on 16th St. in NYC. (I've kept my 
membership card, #446, from Nov. 9, 1963, as a momento.)

Prominently displayed on the wall was posted: "NO HUNTING, FISHING, OR 
CLAPPING IN KOROBUSHKA".   I'm still one of the few people who *don't* clap 
after the twirls. 

Lucy Weinstein
~g -AT-
__
 (\--/"
 /=\\
/ ///
(O2Waltz)
  
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:51:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Sat. May 15 Volunteers wanted for Contra Dance Demos
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990511124936.23714.rocketmail-AT-
web4.rocketmail.com>
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The following announcement concerns contra dancing rather than
English - on the other hand it is a call for "skilled dancers,"  for
a demonstration so it makes much more sense to go to people who
believe in skilled dancing.  Especially since there is the
suggestion of doing elegant or old-fashioned contras.  Most
contemporary contra dancers aren't aware there ever was such a thing
as "elegant" contras, and wouldn't know what to do with one if it
came and sat on them (oops, being curmdgeonly about contras again).

Anyway, there's enough overlap, and for any of you who might be
geographically appropriately, the following is from contra caller
Eric Hollman (a few times removed).  I think it sounds like a blast
and would love to participate, but alas it conflicts with the
Washington Ball.


> >Subject:  Sat. May 15 Participation in Dance Demos
> >
> >>On Sat., May 15, I'll be leading some demonstration contra dances
> >followed by participatory dances in a beautiful
turn-of-the-century  home
> >as part of a House Tour of historic homes in South Orange, NJ.  
Music by
> >Atlantic Bridge (Jane Rothfield & Alan Carr).
> >
> >Volunteer dancers will receive free tickets to the House Tour,
promote
> >traditional contra dancing, and have the pleasure of presenting
> >well-executed dances.  The media may be present.  The House Tour
is a big
> >annual attraction, featuring a large number of interesting homes
and a
> >variety of related entertainment, and drawing a couple or few
hundred
> >people -AT-
$15 admission.
> >
> >PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO OTHER SKILLED DANCERS!
> >
> >I have one set of dancers, and there is space for an additional
optional
> >set.
> >Would you or other SKILLED DANCERS  from your area  be interested
in
> >being part of the demonstration?  There is space for 8-12 volunteer
> >dancers to demonstrate some traditional, perhaps elegant, contras,
> >perhaps chestnuts such as Rory O'More, Hull's Victory, or some
others.
> >Dress will be turn-jof-the-century to the extent possible, or
simple
> >clothing as appropriate.
> >
> >The House Tours are ongoing from  11am-4pm.  The dance schedule is:
> >
> >10:00 - 11:00am  Rehearsal/run-through (a bit later if necessary)
> >11:00          Doors open for House Tours
> >11:30am-12N    PERFORMANCE #1
> >12:30-1:00pm   PERFORMANCE #2
> >2:30-3:00pm    PERFORMANCE #3
> >4:00pm         Doors close for House Tours
> >
> >There is time to enjoy Tours of nearby houses--in costume or
character if
> >you like!--which are mostly in the immediate neighborhood.
> >
> >Planning requires an advance commitment to coordinate couples,
sets, and
> >clothing.
> >
> >IF YOU ARE INTERESTED PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP BY EMAIL OR PHONE:
> >EHollman-AT-
juno.com
> >(914) 255-0929
> >
> >IF YOU CAN RECOMMEND OTHERS, PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE AND/OR
SEND
> >THEIR NAME AND EMAIL TO ME.
> >
> >THANKS, AND HAPPY DANCING!
> >
> >Eric Hollman :)

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:33:53 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:33:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Playford Ball, June 5 in Urbana, IL
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905111533.KAA22094-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

                  The Central Illinois English Country Dancers
                                Invite You To An

                   E N G L I S H   C O U N T R Y   D A N C E
                           P L A Y F O R D   B A L L


   The Central Illinois English Country Dancers will be holding their fourth
annual Playford Ball on Saturday, June 5, 1999.  The dance will be held
in room 314 of the Illini Student Union, 1401 W. Green, Urbana, IL, on the
campus of the University of Illinois.  There will be  a review of the evening's
dances from 7:00 to 8:00, followed by the Ball from 8:00 to 11:00 p.m.  Fans
and finery are encouraged.  There will be a $5.00 suggested donation to help
cover the cost of the Ball.  All lovers of English Country dance and music are
welcome.

Dances Lead By: Susan Burt, Jane Hobgood and Jonathan Sivier
Music Provided By: The Flatland Consort
Dance Review: 7:00 p.m.
Playford Ball: 8:00 to 11:00 p.m.
Date: Saturday, June 5, 1999
Location: Illini Union, room 314, 1401 W. Green, Urbana, IL
Suggested Donation: $5.00

   There will be refreshments at the break and a party following the dance.

   There will be a costume contest with a Top Couple (King and Queen of the
Ball) being chosen.

The dances for the evening will be taken from the following list:

Appley House
The Bishop
Chelmsford Assembly
Circle Waltz
The Duke of Kent's Waltz
Gathering Peascods
A Grand March
Indian Queen
Jenny Pluck Pears
La Russe
Lull Me Beyond Thee
Mad Robin
Money In Both Pockets
The Queen's Jig
Sicilian Circle
Sun Assembly
Young Widow

   For further information contact Jonathan Sivier (j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu) at
217/359-8225 or Jane Hobgood at 217/328-1708 or check the webpage at -
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~j-sivier/ciecd/playford.html

   Thanks for the support of the Champaign Park District and the International
Folk Dance Society.

   For those who are interested, the Urbana Country Dancers will be holding a
contra dance on Friday, June 4, from 8 to 11 p.m. at the Phillip's Recreation
Center in Urbana.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:41:59 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:50:13 -0400
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: walk throughs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990511.132723.-154773.0.solweber-AT-
juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I attended the Hartford Ball last weekend, and it was quite nice.
Putting in my two pence worth on a subject that has been discussed 
in the past, I appreciated the quick walk throughs at the beginning of 
each dance -- it took very little more time than a talk through, and was 
very helpful to those who were perhaps a bit fuzzy on any of the moves.


++++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
++++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++++++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
++++++     and assorted musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com 
+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:21:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:05:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Praetzel <dancer-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: dance music CDs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905111805.OAA12512-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN
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Those of you on the SCA dance list-serv know about the cheap SCA dance CDs
that I make and I've now added a more English Country CD that has some dance
music.

The Mock Hobby Horse CD is music from an English band called Mock Hobby Horse.
It is a nice mix of vocal and instrumental that is definately more listenable
than many of the SCA dance music CDs I carry.

Samples of the songs on this CD (and 9 others) are available in Real Audio
from my server at http://sca.uwaterloo.ca
or more exactly http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/CD-offer.html
Just follow the link for each of the CDs.

The Mock Hobby Horse information is under:
http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Mock-Hobby-Horse

The songs on that CD are listed below.

from Maypole & Mistletoe
1 Indian Queen / Jamaica 2:54
2 Staines Morris 4:20
3 Wilson's Wild or Wolsey's Wild 3:10
4 Man is for Woman Made 1:46
5 Come Again 2:10
6 Fairest Isle 1:46
7 Give me my Yellow Hose again 2:46
8 The Quarter Brawles 2:16
9 Anello 1:49
10 The Holly and the Ivy 2:55
11 Horses' Brawle / Bransle de Bourgoine 2:43
12 The Boar's Head Carol 1:29
13 Volta : Lady Morley / Volta 2:26
14 Lully, Lulla, thow Little Tyne Child 2:19
15 On the Cold Ground 2:02
16 Paul's Wharf 1:52
17 Personent Hodie 2:01
18 I Saw Three Ships / The Sussex Carol / In Dulci Jubilo 3:38

from Mock Hobby Horse
19 All in a Garden Green / Kemp's Jig 2:22
20 Sellenger's Round 1:30
21 Lord Willoughby 2:26
22 Martin Said to His Man 3:07
23 Carman's Whistle 1:51
24 As I Went to Walsingham 1:59
25 Milesian / Rufty Tufty 2:26  

I'm always looking for more music.  The concept of the group that I'm in is
to distribute dance music to the masses for a reasonable fee.  Most CDs are
$3 US (shipping included) and some have a royalty fee of $1.50 to $3 US per
CD.

If you know of any artists / groups that are looking to have a CD mastered
and music distributed then drop me a note.  All sales & work is done on a 
not-for-profit basis.


  - Eric    http://sca.uwaterloo.ca
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:40:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:33:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  flogging (was clapping)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00657965722020203030303530303035-AT-
MAPI.to.RFC822>
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References: Conversation <e4a02c4c.24679c74-AT-
aol.com> with last message <e4a02c4c.24679c74-AT-
aol.com>



----------
Nilos Nevertheless said:

> Steve Corrsin said
>
> >But ultimately it comes down to flogging dead horses. Now, if only those
> >folks could *flog* in time to the music...
>
> Whole different set of skills, Steve.  Not what you want on the dance floor.
> Trust me.
>

So have you ever actually flogged to ECD music, Nilos?  I know you've done it to morris....

[Humming "Newcastle" in a speculative manner]

Marian Phillips


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:48:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:07:02 -0700
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Arcata, redux
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990511130702.007a2bd0-AT-
oz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 01:06 AM 5/10/99 -0700, Alan Winstron wrote:
  
>So this time, they asked me to do a mainstream ECD workshop in the afternoon
>and an English barn dance in the evening.  (When no musicians proved
available
>in the afternoon, I needed to resort to recordings - thus, the frantic
request
>for playlists a couple of weeks ago.)  I've done workshops the previous two
>times, getting 12 and 16 people, respectively.  It surprised both the
>organizers and me when nobody showed up for the workshop at all.  Not one
>person.  So after forty-five minutes we went out and had a beer.

How discouraging!  I wonder if you would get a better response next year if
you call the afternoon event a "dance" instead of a "workshop."   People
might think they will have to stand around a lot and listen to the caller
at a workshop, and that they will have fun dancing at a dance. You wouldn't
have to actually DO anything different than you planned-- just call it a
"dance" and see if it draws more people.  

Vicky Bestock

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:41:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 04:40:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  walk throughs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <681c35ed.246a9871-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sol said

>Putting in my two pence worth on a subject that has been discussed 
>in the past, I appreciated the quick walk throughs at the beginning of 
>each dance -- it took very little more time than a talk through, and was 
>very helpful to those who were perhaps a bit fuzzy on any of the moves.

Putting in *my*  tuppence worth, I say.

HEAR HEAR.

Another county heard from...

Nilos Nevertheless
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:41:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 04:40:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Re:  flogging (was clapping)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <11036bce.246a987c-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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So have you ever actually flogged to ECD music, Nilos?  I know you've done it 
to morris....

[Humming "Newcastle" in a speculative manner]

The ones which immediately spring to mind are
Sellinger's Round
Nottingham Swing
Speed The Plow
Black Jack
and
Female Sayler

Though that list would require several different kinds of flogger.  I would 
think Newcastle would have to be torqued fairly far out of the mode in which 
its usually played to be suitable--much heavier downbeats than are customary, 
for instance, which might render it pretty difficult to dance to (or to dance 
Newcastle to, anyway) so perhaps that doesn't count. 

And you think *clapping* distracts the musicians.....

Nilos 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 06:13:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 06:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  flogging (was clapping)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990512130615.16088.rocketmail-AT-
attach1.rocketmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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---Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net> wrote:
> 
> ----------
> Nilos Nevertheless said:
> 
> > Steve Corrsin said
> >
> > >But ultimately it comes down to flogging dead horses. Now, if
only those
> > >folks could *flog* in time to the music...
> >
> > Whole different set of skills, Steve.  Not what you want on the
dance floor.
> > Trust me.
> >
> 
> So have you ever actually flogged to ECD music, Nilos?  I know
>you've done it to morris....


Goodness.  All this time I thought that was _clogging_ to morris...

Barbara R.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:13:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen D Corrsin <sdc16-AT-
columbia.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #512
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9905121109530.19637-100000-AT-
bonjour.cc.columbia.edu>
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Comrades,

with regard to the following, let me ask the question: is this recording
produced with the knowledge and agreement of the musicians, plus suitable 
compensation? Lest I be
called alarmist, I've had more than one argument, in various places,
with folks associated with the SCA who had what may be termed a cavalier
attitude towards such questions. 

thanks for any reassurance,
Steve Crrsin


On Wed, 12 May 1999 system-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU wrote:

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:05:49 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Eric Praetzel <dancer-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
> Subject: dance music CDs
> Message-ID: <199905111805.OAA12512-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
> 
> Those of you on the SCA dance list-serv know about the cheap SCA dance CDs
> that I make and I've now added a more English Country CD that has some dance
> music.
> 
> The Mock Hobby Horse CD is music from an English band called Mock Hobby Horse.
> It is a nice mix of vocal and instrumental that is definately more listenable
> than many of the SCA dance music CDs I carry.
> 
> Samples of the songs on this CD (and 9 others) are available in Real Audio
> from my server at http://sca.uwaterloo.ca
> or more exactly http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/CD-offer.html
> Just follow the link for each of the CDs.
> 

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:39:23 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:23:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Praetzel <dancer-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance music on CDs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905121623.MAA24732-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

 
> with regard to the following, let me ask the question: is this recording
> produced with the knowledge and agreement of the musicians, plus suitable 
> compensation? Lest I be
> called alarmist, I've had more than one argument, in various places,
> with folks associated with the SCA who had what may be termed a cavalier
> attitude towards such questions. 

  Yes.  I have permission to make and sell all 10 audio CDs that are on my
  site.  Seven of the CDs are freely distributable but can not be sold without
  permission.  Three of the CDs have an associated royalty payment and are 
  not to be copied and distributed.

  For the Mock Hobby Horse CD; I believe that my royalty payment is less than
  what you would pay if you were buying the tape from the group in England.
  I also sell the "Tape of Dance" CDs for less than I paid for the cassette
  tapes!

  But that is just the way that this group of us is distributing CDs.  We
  refuse to handle commerical releases where we have to pay money up front.
  We make CDs on demand and in a non-profit fashion.  Technically if my 
  time was worth something then I'm doing this all at a loss.  None of us is
  even trying to break even on the cost of the CD duplicating equipment.
   
Samples of the songs on this CD (and 9 others) are available in Real Audio
from my server at http://sca.uwaterloo.ca
or more exactly http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/CD-offer.html
Just follow the link for each of the CDs.

Currently my USA friend is not selling the Mock Hobby Horse.  His interest
is in SCA (pre 1650) dance music and he is not terribly fond of the concertina
use by MHH.

  - Eric Praetzel, http://sca.uwaterloo.ca
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:39:51 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:37:56 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  flogging (was clapping)
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <199905121738_MC2-757D-32C2-AT-
compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Message text written by Marian Phillips
>So have you ever actually flogged to ECD music, Nilos?  I know you've done
it to morris....

[Humming "Newcastle" in a speculative manner]<

All thif ftuff about 'flogging' through English dance mufic probably came
from mifreading a 17th C. manufcript about "flogging through Newcaftle" at
fome tempo that waf too flow for the dance.  .

Gene Murrow
in a fitting moment 
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:11:13 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:04:58 +0000
From: Mary Stafford <mes-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The Fubject of flogging
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <01BE9C9A.09302780-AT-
mes.world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hif refent pofting on the fubject of flogging if juft one more example of why Mr. Murrow if one of my favorite contributors to thif lift!

Mary Ftafford
Ftill thinking fondly of all the fine dancing in Weft Hartford

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:41:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:40:41 -0400
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Fubject of flogging
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <v04011700b35fb3c8efd0-AT-
[166.84.193.89]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


>Mary Ftafford
>Ftill thinking fondly of all the fine dancing in Weft Hartford

Woof! (or should that be Warp!?)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:41:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:40:41 -0400
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Fubject of flogging
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <v04011700b35fb3c8efd0-AT-
[166.84.193.89]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT


>Mary Ftafford
>Ftill thinking fondly of all the fine dancing in Weft Hartford

Woof! (or should that be Warp!?)
================================================================================
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From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
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Subject: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
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Re Gene's comment, below, I'll never forget that long-ago moment
at an Early Music Week when I heard lovely late night singing softly
wafting from C Sharp Minor.  I strolled over to this small vocal group 
gathered there and glanced over a shoulder to check out the ancient
looking sheet music.  The words were quite a contrast to the music.
It took several moments to figure out that they were actually singing
about the flowers and sucking bees!

Sol Weber, round finger

Message text written by Marian Phillips
>So have you ever actually flogged to ECD music, Nilos?  I know you've
done
it to morris....

[Humming "Newcastle" in a speculative manner]<

All thif ftuff about 'flogging' through English dance mufic probably came
from mifreading a 17th C. manufcript about "flogging through Newcaftle"
at
fome tempo that waf too flow for the dance.  .

Gene Murrow
in a fitting moment 

++++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
++++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++++++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
++++++     and assorted musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com 
+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone.
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From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
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Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
To: ECD-AT-
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>All thif ftuff about 'flogging' through English dance mufic probably came
>from mifreading a 17th C. manufcript about "flogging through Newcaftle"
>at fome tempo that waf too flow for the dance.  .

LOL this flogging stuff has brought back an early dance camp memory 
for me too. One year at camp there had been some tee-heeing about 
flogging dances to death vs flogging/clogging.  The next year, we had 
shirts made up which had a lovely design using cat and nine tails and 
somehow used flogging or flog dancing.  we thought they were a hoot. 
We wore them one afternoon.  They were met with seriously raised 
eyebrows.

Oh well. We still thought they were a hoot.

Mary Beth <-- always thought a flogging team would be a good thing 
but Ron always thought it would be like that bit in Monty Python 
where the monks hit themselves on the head with the board.....

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From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
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Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
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> Mary Beth <-- always thought a flogging team would be a good thing
> but Ron always thought it would be like that bit in Monty Python
> where the monks hit themselves on the head with the board.....
>
>

You fay that af if it'f a bad thing....

Marian

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From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
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Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
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> > Mary Beth <-- always thought a flogging team would be a good thing
> > but Ron always thought it would be like that bit in Monty Python
> > where the monks hit themselves on the head with the board.....
> >
> >
>
>You fay that af if it'f a bad thing....
>
>Marian

LOL We LIKED the idea, but estimated the amount of tylenol needed to 
support the team would be prohibitive.

Mary Beth <-- not dead yet

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From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
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Subject: Re:  flogging (was clapping)
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Nilos sez:

 I would
> think Newcastle would have to be torqued fairly far out of the mode in which
> its usually played to be suitable--much heavier downbeats than are customary,
> for instance,

I think the main reason Newcastle came to mind is that you can sing "Casey at the Bat" to it, which makes it easy to pull up the tune -- funny how words make it so much easier to remember a tune, like "Liliburlero and Doublemint gum."

Actually, it's a big lie about that being my main reason.  I was originally going to say that the main reason was that the Broadside Band version has this great crashing harpsichord part that does emphasize the downbeats, but fortunately I listened to it again just before I wrote that and realized that the great crashing harpsichord part was entirely in my head.

Well, if you could hear the version of Newcastle that's in my head, you'd agree that it's perfect flogging music.  Although I must admit that when I danced Newcastle for the first time recently, it wasn't quite as exciting as I'd imagined it would be.  Not enough crashing....

Of course, the solution that would probably make any tune good flogging music would be to choke up on the flogger and do that twirling thing where most of the action is in your wrist and you can do it really fast.  I daresay there's a name for it -- there seems to be a name for everything (she said, thoughtfully rubbing her philtrum).

Marian





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From: Dawn Culbertson <dcculb-AT-
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Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
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On Wed, 12 May 1999, sol weber wrote:

> Re Gene's comment, below, I'll never forget that long-ago moment
> at an Early Music Week when I heard lovely late night singing softly
> wafting from C Sharp Minor.  I strolled over to this small vocal group 
> gathered there and glanced over a shoulder to check out the ancient
> looking sheet music.  The words were quite a contrast to the music.
> It took several moments to figure out that they were actually singing
> about the flowers and sucking bees!

You're probably referring to John Wilbye's madrigal "Sweet honey-sucking
bees." Yes, that's quite a lovely piece - and really interesting how it's
put together. For instance, there's one passage:

"For if one flaming dart come from her eye
Was never dart so sharp! Ah, then you die!"

On the word "sharp" all the voices actually sing sharp notes!

Dawn Culbertson
dcculb-AT-
peabody.jhu.edu

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From: Dawn Culbertson <dcculb-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: The Fubject of flogging
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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On Wed, 12 May 1999, Mary Stafford wrote:

> Hif refent pofting on the fubject of flogging if juft one more example of why Mr. Murrow if one of my favorite contributors to thif lift!
> 
> Mary Ftafford
> Ftill thinking fondly of all the fine dancing in Weft Hartford
> 
And then there's that famous quote by Geoffrey Chaucer:
"Who in the claff can fpell Miffiffippi?" :-)

Dawn Culbertson
dcculb-AT-
peabody.jhu.edu 

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From: Mary E Jones <mjones-AT-
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Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
To: ECD-AT-
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This message is from Nancy Parr whose server refuses to be a part of
this nonsense:

  
> Af a follow-up to Gene'f note, I tried to fend a note to the lift, fuggefting that people could come fee for themfelvef that hif
> tempof would not be too flow with the fubfequent refult of flogging.  

Gene will be calling a dance, using all the letters of the modern
alphabet (God willing!), in South Amherst, MA this Saturday at Munson
Library beginning at 8 pm.  Music will be provided by the wonderful,
perfect-tempo-maintaining band, Pleasures of the Town.

See you there!

Mary (thoroughly modern) Jones
Amherst, MA
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From: Tideswell-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re:  Re:  flogging (was clapping)
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Marian said

>I think the main reason Newcastle came to mind is that you can sing "Casey 
at the Bat" to it, >which makes it easy to pull up the tune -- funny how 
words make it so much easier to remember >a tune, like "Liliburlero and 
Doublemint gum."

"Casey at the Bat", huh?  Maybe thinking of that will silence that little 
voice in my head which starts singing:

"Shipped ye not coals to Newcastle?
 Shipped ye not coals aw-a-ay?....."

Anybody else have non-sequitorial words which fall into place in ECD tunes?

just doing what the little voices tell me to

Nilos
PS  If you want thumpity-bumpity versions of ECD tunes, you can scarcely do 
better than the albumn "The Compleat Dancing Master" released, um, sometime 
in the 70's?  By, um, by various artists... 
Can some better-informed dancer out there fill in the blanks?  Or point the 
way to similar renditions?
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:26:00 -0400
From: "Fager, Martin" <Martin.Fager-AT-
Bowne.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: flogging (was clapping)
To: "\"ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU\" " <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, "\"Tideswell-AT-
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     Nilos Nevertheless wrote,
  If you want thumpity-bumpity versions of ECD tunes, you can scarcely do 
better than the albumn "The Compleat Dancing Master" released, um, sometime 
in the 70's?  By, um, by various artists...
Can some better-informed dancer out there fill in the blanks?  Or point the 
way to similar renditions?
     
     *******************************************************
     
     "The Compleat Dancing Master," the title an obvious nod to Playford, 
     was performed by members of the English folk-rock band Fairport 
     Convention, along with some of their musical friends.  The band still 
     exists despite too many member changes, but originally included such 
     luminaries as Richard Thompson and the late lamented Sandy Denny, who 
     was a wonderfully evocative singer (and a good songwriter - she wrote 
     "Who Knows Where The Time Goes".)  Despite my then musical bias toward 
     hard rock, I always loved good folk rock, and bought Fairport's albums 
     as they came out.  Because of the personnel I bought the Compleat 
     Dancing Master album also, and found it curious but quite enjoyable.  
     In the novel of my life that sometimes plays in my head, little did I 
     know that this album was a major foreshadowing of things to come, as 
     ten years later I would discover ECD, and be dancing to some of the 
     tunes on the album.  At least two of the early Fairport Convention 
     albums are available on CD, and well worth owning.  Their rendition of 
     "She Moves Through The Fair" on their first album still thrills me 
     after almost thirty years.  I think Richard Thompson also was (is?) a 
     morris dancer.  He played on the "Morris On" album so beloved of some 
     morris types.  On that album they almost manage to make morris tunes 
     tolerable.  Almost...  I can all too easily imagine flogging to morris 
     tunes.  Thanks for the lead-in, Nilos, and where were you when CDNY's 
     Playford Ball rolled around?
     
     Marty Fager
     
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From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
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Hello, all,

>>>Gene will be calling a dance, using all the letters of the modern
alphabet (God willing!), in South Amherst, MA this Saturday at Munson
Library beginning at 8 pm.  Music will be provided by the wonderful,
perfect-tempo-maintaining band, Pleasures of the Town.<<<

Many thanks to Mary Jones for her kind words about our band, but I hasten,
in this context, to point out that in our minds the Pleasures referred to
in our band name are strictly those of elegant, exuberant, enthusiastic
English country dancing.  

*That* is what we love to see out on the floor as we play.  Most definitely
not, I am afraid, flogging, slogging, or even clogging.  

Of course, ranting, and raving (about the caller, fellow dancers, our
music, the beauty of a May evening in Amherst...) are perfectly okay.  :-)

Joyce Crouch
Amherst, MA



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From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
To: ECD-AT-
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Mary Beth Goodman writes:
> 
> > > Mary Beth <-- always thought a flogging team would be a good thing
> > > but Ron always thought it would be like that bit in Monty Python
> > > where the monks hit themselves on the head with the board.....
> > >
> > >
> >
> >You fay that af if it'f a bad thing....
> >
> >Marian
> 
> LOL We LIKED the idea, but estimated the amount of tylenol needed to 
> support the team would be prohibitive.
> 
> Mary Beth <-- not dead yet

    To get back (somewhat) to where this thread started (I think), you
could call the dance the Flagenella.  ;-)

    As far as dances taken from Monty Python goes, I think the "Fish Slapping
Dance" might be a better model.

Jonathan "just let me whip into something more comfortable" Sivier

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Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:55:35 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:52:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Re: flogging (was clapping)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 Tideswell-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> Anybody else have non-sequitorial words which fall into place in ECD tunes?

"London Bridge is Falling Down" fits distressingly well into the B part 
of "Rufty Tufty", at least until the last line.
 
> PS  If you want thumpity-bumpity versions of ECD tunes, you can scarcely do 
> better than the albumn "The Compleat Dancing Master" released, um, sometime 
> in the 70's?  By, um, by various artists... 
> Can some better-informed dancer out there fill in the blanks?  Or point the 
> way to similar renditions?

The leading lights of that production were John Kirkpatrick and Ashley 
Hutchings; it's usually cataloged under one of their names. And it's been 
reissued on Hannibal.

Meanwhile, if you want more in that style, check out "7 to Midnight" by 
Pyewackett, available from CDSS (but not, I think, on CD).

Peace.
Paul
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:31:29 -0600
From: rushton-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
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It's not non-sequitorial, but I always hum "broom, the broom, the bonny
bonny broom; broom, the bonny bonny broom." etc etc, to the obvious tune.

Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:44:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Emma remarked:

  It's not non-sequitorial, but I always hum "broom, the broom, the bonny
  bonny broom; broom, the bonny bonny broom." etc etc, to the obvious tune.

  Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
  whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)

Well, my non-dancing friend Robbie Bourget (a bilingual Canadian
sufficiently pleased with her English heritage that she's living in England
now, although that may also be partly in response to an obsessive interest
in DR. WHO) once heard me humming the tune and said "I know that song!",
then sang part of it.  All I remember now is "Broom, broom, the bonny bonny
broom, the broom of the Cowdenknowes. . . "

So I think there are words, but I can't say what they are, and I'm too 
lazy to go check out Digital Tradition right now.

-- Alan



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 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
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From: "Fager, Martin" <Martin.Fager-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: flogging (was clapping)
To: "\"ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU\" " <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, "\"Paul J. Stamler\" " <pstamler-AT-
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 Tideswell-AT-
aol.com wrote:
     
> Anybody else have non-sequitorial words which fall into place in ECD
tunes?
     
     It may not be non-sequitorial, but I can't dance Lili Burlero without 
     thinking of that bawdy ditty, "My Thing Is My Own," which is sung to 
     the same tune.
     
     Marty Fager
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
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CC: ECD-AT-
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On Thu, 13 May 1999, Emma Rushton wrote:

> It's not non-sequitorial, but I always hum "broom, the broom, the bonny
> bonny broom; broom, the bonny bonny broom." etc etc, to the obvious tune.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
> whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)

Check out the traditional Scots song "Broom of the Cowdenknowes", which I 
believe is available from Digital Tradition:

http://www.mudcat.com/

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:00:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
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On Thu, 13 May 1999, Emma Rushton wrote:

 . . .

> Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
> whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)

I believe the title refers to a flowering plant, one form of which, at
least, I have heard called "Scotch broom."

From "Britannica Online":

any of several shrubs or small trees of the genus
  Cytisus, of the pea family (Faba ceae), native to
  temperate regions of Europe and western Asia.
  They are also cultivated in other regions, chiefly
  for their attractive flowers. . .

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:20:21 -0400
From: Torbin <torbin-AT-
mail.interlog.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #512
To: ECD-AT-
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Stephen D Corrsin wrote:

> Comrades,
>
> with regard to the following, let me ask the question: is this recording
> produced with the knowledge and agreement of the musicians, plus suitable
> compensation? Lest I be
> called alarmist, I've had more than one argument, in various places,
> with folks associated with the SCA who had what may be termed a cavalier
> attitude towards such questions.

When Eric first posted his intention to have excerpts on his website, I asked him
the same question. Since the question implies a criticism, I did so privately, not
via the mailing list, just as I am doing now.

As many people are cavalier about copyright, it is a legitimate question. However,
I think justifying the question by implying guilt by association was unnecessarily
offensive.

Torbin

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:26:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: JoAnne Rawls <ljrawls-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Emma asks (re. Broom, the Bonny, Bonny Broom):
>
>Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
>whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)

A man in our dance group claims that it's about an illicit pregnancy, but I 
don't know how reliable that information is. Anybody?

JoAnne
Newport News, VA


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:28:19 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:25:40 +0000
From: "Lawrence N. Stout" <lstout-AT-
sun.iwu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
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"Paul J. Stamler" wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 13 May 1999, Emma Rushton wrote:
> 
> > It's not non-sequitorial, but I always hum "broom, the broom, the bonny
> > bonny broom; broom, the bonny bonny broom." etc etc, to the obvious tune.
> >
> > Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
> > whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)
> 
> Check out the traditional Scots song "Broom of the Cowdenknowes", which I
> believe is available from Digital Tradition:
> 
> http://www.mudcat.com/
> 
That's

http://www.mudcat.org/

Lawrence Neff Stout
Professor of Mathematics
Illinois Wesleyan University

http://www.iwu.edu/~lstout

"Fiddling is a viol habit." Anon?
"Dancing is necessary for a well ordered society." Thoinot Arbeau
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:21:30 -0700
From: paul/victoria bestock <bestockp-AT-
oz.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
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At 11:31 AM 5/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
>It's not non-sequitorial, but I always hum "broom, the broom, the bonny
>bonny broom; broom, the bonny bonny broom." etc etc, to the obvious tune.
>
>Does anyone know anything about that dance title, why it's called that,
>whether there are words (and if so did I get them right)? :-)

There are words, but I don't know them.  Someone else is sure to give them
to you.  

I've always assumed the title referred to the flowering shrub  (also known
as Scotch Broom) and  not to the implements you use for sweeping the house.
It IS bonny, with its cheerful yellow flowers, though so many people are
allergic to it that the highway department, which used to plant masses of
it along roadways to hold the soil in place, is now busy removing it
because it is a traffic hazard to have all those drivers sneezing and
coughing instead of watching the road.   

But your question made me wonder if the words of the song are meant to go
beyond the literal flower to midieval flower symbolism. LOts of flower
symbolism comes down to us in songs, so we all know that red roses=true
love, violets=shyness, thyme= virginity, rue=regret, willow=sorrow.  Does
broom symbolize anything besides hay fever?  

Vicky Bestock	 	
 


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:42:38 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:36:50 +0000
From: Mary Stafford <mes-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Bonny Bonny Broom
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Emma Rushton, you asked about words to "Broom, The Bonny Bonny Broom". =
It so happens there is quite a complete set of words to the tune we =
dance to, though I first learned them from the singing of Ewan MacColl =
to a rather different tune. Jean Redpath sings a set of words (and I =
think Archie Fisher as well) to "our" dance tune, but as a ballad fan I =
consider the text degraded. The Ewan MacColl version, which will easily =
fit the other tune, is a pretty decent version of the Child ballad. =
Basically it's a seduction story: a young woman is out milking her =
father's ewes at an enclosure ("ewe-bucht") in an isolated situation, =
and singing sweetly at her work. Up comes a young man, and after some =
silly conversation, he has his way with her. She goes home and does not =
discuss this event much with her father, though she does mention it at =
least marginally. Some time later, the same young lady, clearly in a =
family way, is out tending cows, and again meets the young man. After =
some more silly conversation he takes her off to marry her. The tune is =
lovely, the text amusing in that both the young woman and the young man =
tell lots of lies to one another for various reasons. If you truly want =
all this, write me privately and I will send it to you. There is =
probably enough text to carry one at least twice through the dance.

Lilliburlero also has a full set of words, by the way, quite political =
in nature.

Mary Stafford
ECD lover and ballad lover
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:05:02 -0600
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
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>I believe the title refers to a flowering plant, one form of which, at
>least, I have heard called "Scotch broom."

I'd always vaguely imagined a house-cleaning implement.  A moment's thought
would have shown me how absurd that was, but actually I'm a bit
disappointed that it means the flower (I think that's proved by the
references to Scotland in other posts).  I used to imagine someone happily
sweeping their house, singing to their bonny bonny broom.  The music is
sort of busy and bustling and would be good to clean to.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:06:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: ArcadiaCB-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: re: Words tunes
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Re the words for "Broom, broom...".  and others.
A great CD for these words is The Baltimore Consort's  "A Trip to Kilburn: 
Playford Tunes and their ballards" (Dorian label  DOR-90238). The words for 
"Broom, broom..." are the ones to "The Broom of Cowdenknows" as previously 
mentioned, and there are also songs  (and printed words) to several other 
Playford and early dance tunes--- a dancable CD.    For those who have not 
discovered this group, they are delight,  doing early music--usually a 
Playford or ECD dance tune  on most of their almost dozen CDs.  Check out 
their website 
<A HREF="http://www.baltcons.com/">The Baltimore Consort</A>  (with 
recording, concert info and resturant recommendations) and treat yourself to 
one of their concerts (I think I've been to 5 so far) and all their CDs.
Charlene in Virginia
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:41:51 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:41:09 -0400
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bonny Bonny Broom
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
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At 4:36 PM +0000 5/13/99, Mary Stafford wrote:

>Lilliburlero also has a full set of words, by the way, quite political in
>>nature.

Lilliburlero has _vast_ numbers of settings (lots of the favorite tunes
for broadside ballads were used for many, many occasions.) There are
bawdy texts to it (the one Marty mentioned, e.g.) and drinking songs
(Nottingham Ale, which I heard from Oak, Ash & Thorn long before I knew
the dance), and -- as you suggest -- political words (of various polit-
ical persuasions...)


	"... it will loosen your throats,
	you may preach without notes,
	when inspired by a bumper of Nottingham Ale."
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:41:53 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:41:09 -0400
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bonny Bonny Broom
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
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At 4:36 PM +0000 5/13/99, Mary Stafford wrote:

>Lilliburlero also has a full set of words, by the way, quite political in
>>nature.

Lilliburlero has _vast_ numbers of settings (lots of the favorite tunes
for broadside ballads were used for many, many occasions.) There are
bawdy texts to it (the one Marty mentioned, e.g.) and drinking songs
(Nottingham Ale, which I heard from Oak, Ash & Thorn long before I knew
the dance), and -- as you suggest -- political words (of various polit-
ical persuasions...)


	"... it will loosen your throats,
	you may preach without notes,
	when inspired by a bumper of Nottingham Ale."
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:46:40 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:45:59 -0400
From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 5:05 PM -0600 5/13/99, Emma Rushton wrote:
>>I believe the title refers to a flowering plant, one form of which, at
>>least, I have heard called "Scotch broom."
>
>I'd always vaguely imagined a house-cleaning implement.  A moment's thought
>would have shown me how absurd that was, but actually I'm a bit
>disappointed that it means the flower (I think that's proved by the
>references to Scotland in other posts).  I used to imagine someone happily
>sweeping their house, singing to their bonny bonny broom.  The music is
>sort of busy and bustling and would be good to clean to.

There is a connection... among other ballads, I've heard one that goes

	Buy broom besoms,
	buy them while their new
	bonnie broom besoms,
	bett' tha never knew.

"Besom" was the instrument for pushing dirt around on the floor, and
broom plants (the sprigs, after blooming) were good for binding into
these. So good that the common material for besoms became the name we
use...

After Vicki's note, I can just _imagine_ (in my current hay-fevered
state) the poor huswif plying her besom and sneezing up a storm at
the same time.
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:05:22 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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> >I believe the title refers to a flowering plant, one form of which, at
> >least, I have heard called "Scotch broom."
>
>I'd always vaguely imagined a house-cleaning implement.  A moment's thought
>would have shown me how absurd that was, but actually I'm a bit
>disappointed that it means the flower


Ah, but I saw a wonderfully blooming broom plant just the other day - 
what a beautiful blast of yellow it was too!

Mary Beth

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:00:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:03:10 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
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Comes in purple too!

My favorite is the combined brilliant yellow with rust inside.  Large blossom.

Garnet Rogers has a lovely interpretation of the song on the first album he
made after Stan died.

Oh, so long ago.

There are millions of others in the Celtic music world.  Nearly every Scot
who sings has recorded this song.  It is a classic in the repertoire.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:04:31 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Oh yes, one last thing.  It's a legume.  By mid-summer the sprigs are hung
with pods, not very large, and they burst and spew out 8 or 10 seeds or so.
That is why it is such a pest on the coast of California.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:16:32 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Langdell <jamesc-AT-
bassclar.eng.sun.com>
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: jamesc-AT-
eng.Sun.COM
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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someone wrote:
> >I believe the title refers to a flowering plant, one form of which, at
> >least, I have heard called "Scotch broom."
>
then rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) wrote: 
> I'd always vaguely imagined a house-cleaning implement.  A moment's thought
> would have shown me how absurd that was, but actually I'm a bit
> disappointed that it means the flower (I think that's proved by the
> references to Scotland in other posts).  I used to imagine someone happily
> sweeping their house, singing to their bonny bonny broom.  The music is
> sort of busy and bustling and would be good to clean to.

I think there are a number of Shaker songs to accompany dancing
that includes literal sweeping with a broom.  I don't have
"A Gift to Be Simple" by Andrews at hand to check, though.

--James Langdell       jamesc-AT-
eng.sun.com
  Sun Microsystems     Menlo Park, Calif.

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:23:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will Linden <wlinden-AT-
panix.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Bonny Bonny Broom
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.10.9905132223090.5637-100000-AT-
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On Thu, 13 May 1999, Michael L. Siemon wrote:

> At 4:36 PM +0000 5/13/99, Mary Stafford wrote:
> 
> >Lilliburlero also has a full set of words, by the way, quite political in
> >>nature.
> 
> Lilliburlero has _vast_ numbers of settings (lots of the favorite tunes
> for broadside ballads were used for many, many occasions.) There are
> bawdy texts to it (the one Marty mentioned, e.g.) and drinking songs
> (Nottingham Ale, which I heard from Oak, Ash & Thorn long before I knew
> the dance), and -- as you suggest -- political words (of various polit-
> ical persuasions...)
 Including a Civil War version, "Overtures from Richmond".

Will Linden  wlinden-AT-
panix.com
http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:09:56 -0400
From: Torbin <torbin-AT-
mail.interlog.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Apology to Stephen Corrsin
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9905121109530.19637-100000-AT-
bonjour.cc.columbia.edu> <373B17E2.CD5E57D6-AT-
mail.interlog.com>

Re: ECD Digest V1 #512

I really did intend to respond privately to your message. Please accept
my sincere apologies for inadvertently posting to the list.

Torbin

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:11:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes - correction
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.990513220602.6344B-100000-AT-
crl2.crl.com>
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Er, whoops. The address for Digital Tradition is:

http://www.mudcat.org/

Not .com, as I had previously posted. Thanks to Terry Gaffney for 
pointing me right.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:26:43 PST
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
crl.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.990513222014.6344D-100000-AT-
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On Thu, 13 May 1999, paul/victoria bestock wrote:

> Does
> broom symbolize anything besides hay fever?  

Yes, sex.

Peace.
Paul
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:38:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00657965722020203030303530303035-AT-
MAPI.to.RFC822>
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References: Conversation <v01540b0ab36109a7e27f-AT-
[155.99.169.243]> with last message <v03007807b3612665d306-AT-
[140.186.62.131]>

Of course, the canonical version of Liliburlero is:

Part A:

Double your pleasure, double your fun
With Liliburlero and Doublemint gum.
Double your pleasure, double your fun
With Liliburlero and Doublemint gum.

Part B:

Juicyfruit is very nice
But like Childgrove, it lacks the spice
Of
Liliburlero and
Liliburlero and
Liliburlero and Doublemint gum.

Spearmint too is very nice
But like Nonesuch, it lacks the spice
Of
Liliburlero and
Liliburlero and
Liliburlero and Doublemint gum.

Marian

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:00:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:59:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dawn Culbertson <dcculb-AT-
peabody.jhu.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: re: Words tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990514015842.4396F-100000-AT-
gigue.peabody.jhu.edu>
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 ArcadiaCB-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> Re the words for "Broom, broom...".  and others.
> A great CD for these words is The Baltimore Consort's  "A Trip to Kilburn: 
> Playford Tunes and their ballards" (Dorian label  DOR-90238).

Another very good recording of this ballad is the Broadside Band's on
their "Beggar's Opera" recording (on Harmonia Mundi) & the booklet to the
CD also includes the words.

Dawn Culbertson
dcculb-AT-
peabody.jhu.edu

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:59:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 05:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: SallenNic-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: The Assembly Ball
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <9f90d984.246d4db2-AT-
aol.com>
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The Assembly (Glasgow & Edinburgh) 17th annual Ball will be held in the 
lovely oval hall of 
	Edinburgh Academy, Henderson Row, Edinburgh
on 
	June 26th, 1999
at 
	7.00pm - carriages at 11.30pm
Music is by A&B (Violin and Piano) - there is an unusually good Steinway in 
the hall! -
A buffet supper will be served at the interval as usual.
The programme is composed of dances revised and/or discovered and done by Pat 
Shaw during his 23 year series "Another look at Playford" and is as follows:

"PAT  SHAWS  PLAYFORD"
Holborn March								Never 
love thee more
Spring Garden								My 
Lady Winwood's Maggott
Up with Aily								
Hair's Maggott
Whimbleton House							
Russian Dance
If all the world were paper					Wives' Victory
Joy after Sorrow							
Bartlett House
Portsmouth								The 
Tatler
White Joak									
The Health
The Spring									
Fair Quaker of Deal
News from Tripoly
Marli Water Works
Mr Beveridge's Maggott
		SUPPER  INTERVAL
Tickets (strictly limited to 75) are £12.50, which includes a leaflet with 
instructions for all the dances: a practice cassette is also available for 
those buying tickets at a further £3.00, if they wish it, which contains all 
the dances in danceable length.
Tickets (and tape) may be had from:
	Nicolas Broadbridge, Linnmill, Kirkfieldbank, LANARK, Scotland. ML11 
9UP. Tel. 01555 - 662212
	For those wishing to stay over in Edinburgh I can supply a list of 
accomodation near to the Ball.
	We also have a meeting on Thursday 24th June at Holy Cross Church 
Hall, Bangholm Loan, ED. at 7.30pm, at which I shall run most of the Ball 
programme. The charge for this meeting is £2.20, and all are most welcome.
										
						Nicolas B.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 05:53:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:52:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re:  Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <b67ada00.246d7675-AT-
aol.com>
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Paul wrote
>On Thu, 13 May 1999, paul/victoria bestock wrote:
>
>> Does
>>broom symbolize anything besides hay fever?  
>
>Yes, sex.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but was not Scotch Broom (invasive, 
opportunistic plant) the cap badge of the Plantagenets?
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 06:24:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 06:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barbara Ruth <barbararuth-AT-
rocketmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Brooms and Ballads
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990514131802.2484.rocketmail-AT-
attach1.rocketmail.com>
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Well this is very interesting.  No one has mentioned the very lovely
Silly Wizard version on their recording "Caledonia's Hardy Sons". 
This has a completely different set of words than the Child version,
which I had never heard before (which I just looked up on Digital
Tradition - thanks for pointer guys).  The Silly Wizard version
tells of a young man banished for loving a woman of higher social
standing.  The chorus goes:
O the broom, the bonnie, bonnie broom 
The broom o the cowdenknowes 
Fain would I be in my ain country 
followed by some uninterpretable to my ears, Scottish stuff.

According to the Silly Wizard liner notes, the melody is believed to
have been written by Rizzio, a court favorite of Mary, Queen of
Scots (according to Silly Wizard, her lover).  If so, there is an
irony in it, since he was eventually murdered by her husband because
of his relationship with the Queen.  The husband, Lord Darnley
didn't do too well either though.  A few years later he was
murdered, possibly by the Earl of Bothwell, whom Mary then married,
causing the Scottish nobility to rise against and depose her,
leading to her eventual execution by Elizabeth.  According to a
friend of mine who is a scholar of the Elizabethan period, when
Mary's son James VI of Scotland inherited Elizabeth's throne
(becoming James I of England) he packed his bags, took the first
coach to England and never went back, becoming the first Scottish
monarch to die in his bed, in five generations.  None of which has
anyhing to do with The Broom o the Cowdenknowes, but makes a far
more interesting story than the old, nobleman gets a young maid
pregnant and marries her (at least in Tam Lin there's a whole bunch
of supernatural terror to liven things up).

Barbara Ruth
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free -AT-
yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:41:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:32:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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> someone wrote:
>  > >I believe the title refers to a flowering plant, one form of which, at
>  > >least, I have heard called "Scotch broom."
>  >
>  then rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) wrote: 
>  > I'd always vaguely imagined a house-cleaning implement.  A moment's 
> thought
>  > would have shown me how absurd that was, but actually I'm a bit
>  > disappointed that it means the flower (I think that's proved by the
>  > references to Scotland in other posts).  I used to imagine someone 
happily
>  > sweeping their house, singing to their bonny bonny broom.  The music is
>  > sort of busy and bustling and would be good to clean to.
>  

The broom varieties I'm familiar with (esp the roadside wild yellow-blossomed 
stuff) all seem to be rather twiggy and relatively leafless -- y'all sure 
people have never fashioned brooms from brooms?

Reine Wonite
Chico, CA
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:59:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:57:18 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <charlene-AT-
flash.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <373C63FC.C3BFCD44-AT-
flash.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: Conversation <v01540b0ab36109a7e27f-AT-
[155.99.169.243]> with last message <v03007807b3612665d306-AT-
[140.186.62.131]> <MAPI.Id.0016.00657965722020203030303530303035-AT-
MAPI.to.RFC822>

Heyer wrote:

> Of course, the canonical version of Liliburlero is:

Great.  Now I won't be able to listen to that song anymore without
hearing these lyrics.  :-)

There's a filked version of Dargason in the SCA; hard to dance without
hearing those lyrics.

--Charlene

--
The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights.  -- J.
Paul Getty


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:14:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:16:52 -0600
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b0cb36217bd61ab-AT-
[155.99.169.243]>
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>I think there are a number of Shaker songs to accompany dancing
>that includes literal sweeping with a broom.  I don't have
>"A Gift to Be Simple" by Andrews at hand to check, though.
>
>--James Langdell       jamesc-AT-
eng.sun.com
>  Sun Microsystems     Menlo Park, Calif.

And in Cambridge, (England) Cyril Papworth demonstrates a Broom Dance on
occasion.  Don't remember any actual sweeping though.

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:07:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:09:00 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v03007802b36224d50c05-AT-
[140.186.62.146]>
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Not at all sure.  In the spring, before the flowers and before the leaves
mature, the sprays of the plant distinctly look like broom material, and if
you prune, the likeness gets even stronger.

Once broom blooms, and leafs out, it is less a candidate.

However, the stems are not particularly rigid, even when dead they are less
rigid than straw.  So I don't know whether lashing them, like with a stray
broom, would be as effective.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:12:28 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:14:30 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v03007803b36226245abb-AT-
[140.186.62.146]>
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And if you all think that you can't get words out of your head once you are
exposed to them, imagine the fun with classical music.

Oh, my word, it's Beethoven's Third!

This is the symphony that Schubert wrote and never finished.

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a Mozart.

Oh, Mozart's in the closet, let him out, let him out, let him out.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:23:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:25:43 -0600
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v01540b0db362446de324-AT-
[155.99.169.243]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>And if you all think that you can't get words out of your head once you are
>exposed to them, imagine the fun with classical music.

The beginning of the "Hebrides Overture" - "how lovely the sea is", and a
bit later "here comes the bogeyman, run away, run away"

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:11:03 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:55:38 +0000
From: Mary Stafford <mes-AT-
world.std.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Broom, Continued
To: 'English Country Dance List' <ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <01BE9E34.B8D4E2C0-AT-
mes.world.std.com>
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Barbara Ruth mentions the Silly Wizard version- it is indeed the version I consider "debased". I went back to old Francis James Child (do you all know he's buried in Stockbridge in the famous Sedgwick Pie plot?) and was quite amused to find his opinion of this text agreed with mine. Child's notes are incredibly entertaining as well as erudite. He says (I have edited and compressed a bit) " There is an English 'ditty' to the tune. There is very little story to the ditty. The Scottish ballad could not have been developed from this. On the other hand, it is scarcely to be believed that the author of the ditty, if he had known the Scottish ballad, would have dropped all the interesting particulars."

And Barbara, the last lines of the chorus are: "Fain would I be in the North Country, herding her faither's yowes (ewes)". I should also note that the version I learned from the MacColl record is mostly in broad Scots. Once many years ago, a friend and I were singing this to a couple of young men, and as we paused for dramatic impact, one said to us, "Do you realize that we haven't understood one word of all that?"

Mary Stafford
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:41:10 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:25:36 -0400
From: Michael S Franch <franch-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: That *other* S-F saga (as we try to ignore Star Wars)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990514.214655.6470.20.franch-AT-
juno.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990513031407.13551E-100000-AT-
gigue.peabody.jhu.edu>


On Thu, 13 May 1999 03:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Dawn Culbertson
<dcculb-AT-
peabody.jhu.edu> writes:

>You're probably referring to John Wilbye's madrigal "Sweet 
>honey-sucking
>bees." Yes, that's quite a lovely piece - and really interesting how 
>it's
>put together. For instance, there's one passage:
>
>"For if one flaming dart come from her eye
>Was never dart so sharp! Ah, then you die!"
>
Don't know about this instance, but "die" often = orgasm in these
ditties.

>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:47:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heyer <Heyer-AT-
concentric.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00657965722020203030303530303035-AT-
MAPI.to.RFC822>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: Conversation <v01540b0ab36109a7e27f-AT-
[155.99.169.243]> with last message <373C63FC.C3BFCD44-AT-
flash.net>

Charlene writes:

> There's a filked version of Dargason in the SCA;

Oh?

All Agog,

Marian

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:47:20 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:45:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: DavBarnert-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: words to tunes
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <140c282e.246ee29b-AT-
aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 >And if you all think that you can't get words out of your head
 >once you are exposed to them, imagine the fun with classical
 >music.

My favorite:

[Ode to Joy}: Sigmund Freude never hoid a symphony by Beethoven...

Also,

 >There's a filked version of Dargason in the SCA; hard to dance
 >without hearing those lyrics.

The Baltimore consort do a ditty called "Hey For Christmas" to the
tune of Dargason. It's about a party that got a little out of hand.

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:51:29 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:01:18 -0400
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: WORDS
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990516.153549.-152113.7.solweber-AT-
juno.com>
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Since elf sent the following, I'll mention Bob Blue's hysterical
rendering of the 1st movement of the Mozart Eine Kleine 
Nachtsmusik, for people who like to sing along with their 
classical music.  It starts, 
 Mozart was so good at writing tunes.  Trouble was,
he often wrote just tunes.  People who like to sing a lot,
would just sing la la la, that doesn't say a lot,.....
    and on and on.  Very funny and clever.
This is not a venue for commercial announcements, but I'll
mention a *benefit* offer.  Bob has severe MS, and I have 
prepared sheet music and a tape of the above, and they are
available at an exorbitant price with ALL the money going to
Bob for his expenses.  The end.

                               *****************

(From elf)

And if you all think that you can't get words out of your head once you
are
exposed to them, imagine the fun with classical music.

Oh, my word, it's Beethoven's Third!

This is the symphony that Schubert wrote and never finished.

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's a Mozart.

Oh, Mozart's in the closet, let him out, let him out, let him out.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:16:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:15:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: What the Arcatans thought
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Folks --

Here's a pre-print excerpt of an article by Larry Levine, one of the 
Arcata organizers, about the barn dance I wrote about. I'm including 
this here to sort of close the loop on the discussion, or possibly
because I'm a self-obsessed twit.

This will appear in the Humboldt Folklife Society newsletter.  (I've cut out
the parts that weren't about the barn dance.)  Forwarded with Larry's
permission, incidentally.
==============================================
CONTRA CORNER by Larry Levine [May 16, 1999]

"Every Second Saturday"

Here in Arcata, contra dancing is a regular activity.  You can
count on some kind of dance experience every second Saturday
at 8 pm.  Come what may, looming final exams or hot competing
events, we rarely cancel.  

"Barn Again"

The May 8 evening event with Alan Winston and Good Company
had a distinctly British quality.  Billed as another "English-style
Barn Dance," it was Alan's latest attempt at producing an English
Country Dance suitable for the contra dancers of Arcata.   Alan
really tries, but we rubes are hard to please.  We want fast
vigorous contra-like material, without too many non-contra figures
or overly complex choreography.  It's not that we ain't open-
minded and adaptable, but I guess you could say we prefer the
dancing experience to the learning experience.  

This time I think Alan finally got it right.  The crowd responded
with sweaty enthusiasm to the point of exhaustion.  Some folks
were overheard saying that they'd like to do some of this English
stuff at our regular contra dances.  It would not be the first time. 
That old contra chestnut, "Cumberland Squares": alternate polka
across and back, star right, left, basket, all circle left and
promenade back, to the tune "My love she's but a lassie yet" -
you didn't think that was a cowboy dance, did you?  Now, as an
alternative, try "Right and Left Polka," a Sicilian circle that begins
as a polka corridor for the #1 and then the #2 couples.  Just the
thing for blowing off steam in an overly boisterous crowd.  

But not all of Alan's selection was high-energy rambunctious.  Of
the two choreographed waltzes, "Circle Waltz" felt particularly
sensuous, and with no multi-couple interactions it's especially
easy to pick up.  Alan himself seems quite impressed with the
utility of the above "Polka" and "Waltz".  Recounting his
experiences in a post to the English Country Dance list (forwarded
by Reine Wonite), Alan noted the dances "actually worked with
drunken behavioral ecologists in Monterey, and they worked very
well in Arcata, too."  Well, we had fun.
==============================================

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:19:58 PST
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:30:40 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <charlene-AT-
flash.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: walk throughs
To: ECD-AT-
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References: <19990511.132723.-154773.0.solweber-AT-
juno.com>

sol weber wrote:

> I attended the Hartford Ball last weekend, and it was quite nice.
> Putting in my two pence worth on a subject that has been discussed
> in the past, I appreciated the quick walk throughs at the beginning of
> each dance -- it took very little more time than a talk through, and was
> very helpful to those who were perhaps a bit fuzzy on any of the moves.

I'm not familiar with how modern ECD balls are run (there isn't much in the
way of ECD in Houston, Texas - please correct me if I'm mistaken).  These
were quick walk throughs for those who knew the dance, but needed a quick
reminder - rather than a walk through to quickly teach those who didn't know
the dance - yes?

--Charlene

--
The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights.  -- J. Paul
Getty




================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:54:31 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Margherita Davis <margheritad-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Come Dance With Us!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990518165313.10518.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>
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Since many people on the list pass through the lovely Hudson Valley in their 
travels during the summer, I am posting this announcement of our season:

The Columbia County Country Dancers opens its 1999 season this coming 
Saturday, May 22, 7:30-10:30 pm. This opening gala will be led by the 
ebullient Mary Jones of Amherst, with the noted Albany caller, Peter Stix. 
Music will be by Hudson Crossing: George Davis, strings &
harmonica; Cara Friedman on winds and Robin Russell on piano.

The dance will be held in the Community House of The Church of St. John the 
Evangelist, County Route 25, Stockport, NY. You can find a neat map at: 
http://www.vicinity.com/ by just completing the form at MapBlast. They'll 
also give you driving directions. Visit our website for more details: 
http://home.earthlink.net/~mandgdavis/dancdate.html

For future reference, subsequent dates this season are: June 19, Helen 
Davenport w/ Patricia Evans; July 10, Mary Jones w/ Don Bell; August 7, 
Sharon Green w/ John Huhn; Sept 18, Carol Martinez w/ John Huhn and October 
23, Carol Martinez w/ John Huhn. Music for all dates will be by Hudson 
Crossing.

If you do come through, let me know, especially if you need help connecting 
with folks. We have picnics and other get-togethers at which you are 
welcome.

Margherita Davis


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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Archive-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:17:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:01:20 -0400
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: walk throughs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990518.140211.-152113.4.solweber-AT-
juno.com>
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Re the following exchange, yes, I would think that those stepping 
onto the floor should have at least a nodding acquaintance with the
particular dance.  In the real world, an occasional inconsiderate lout
will charge into an unknown dance with fingers crossed, hoping that 
their dancing experience and expertise will carry them through.  This 
may work for the simpler dances, but any degree of complexity will be
another story.  An occasional "For those who know" is a good idea, 
and perhaps a cautionary marking for somewhat tricky dances as well,
to give pause to those with reckless tendencies.


***********************************************************

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:30:40 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <charlene-AT-
flash.net>
Subject: Re: walk throughs
Message-ID: <37411720.55E1FF41-AT-
flash.net>

sol weber wrote:

> I attended the Hartford Ball last weekend, and it was quite nice.
> Putting in my two pence worth on a subject that has been discussed
> in the past, I appreciated the quick walk throughs at the beginning of
> each dance -- it took very little more time than a talk through, and
was
> very helpful to those who were perhaps a bit fuzzy on any of the moves.

I'm not familiar with how modern ECD balls are run (there isn't much in
the
way of ECD in Houston, Texas - please correct me if I'm mistaken).  These
were quick walk throughs for those who knew the dance, but needed a quick
reminder - rather than a walk through to quickly teach those who didn't
know
the dance - yes?

--Charlene


++++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
++++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++++++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
++++++     and assorted musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com 
+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:51:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:51:36 -0700
From: Richard Dolan <dolascetta-AT-
earthlink.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Stanford Baroque Dance Summer Workshop
To: ecd-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <003601bea15f$757ddb20$dd53ffd0-AT-
Dolascetta>
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Hey, all you procrastinators! If you're planning to sign up for our
scintillating workshop, and save a few bucks, the first deadline is fast
approaching. Let me know if you have any questions. Louise

Baroque Dance and its Music
26th Annual  Workshop
at Stanford University

July 19 - 30, 1999

For Dancers, Dance Scholars, Choreographers, Musicians,
Musicologists, and Theater Movement Specialists

Wendy Hilton, Director
Linda Tomko, Co-Director
Marie-Nathalie Lacoursière
Julie Andrijeski
Baroque Violins:
Bronwen Pugh
Julie Andrijeski
Guest Lecturers: Dr. Carol Marsh, Week I; Dr. Meredith Little, Week II

The Baroque Dance Summer Workshop at Stanford University offers intensive
study in the style, technique and notation of French court and theater dance
at the beginning, intermediate and advanced levels; the individual dance
types and their music; performance technique, etiquette, and bows and
courtesies.

Daily activities include two technique classes, the second concluding with
contradances; a dance notation class; a music class or
lecture-demonstration; and time to use the music library with its extensive
dance collection and the Lully Archives. Beginning and intermediate couples
are allocated a one-hour daily practice slot. Evening practice space is also
available. Advanced students are allocated practice space and have four
private, or semi-private, notation sessions with Wendy Hilton. The Workshop
concludes on July 30th with a demonstration followed by a farewell party at
5:00 p.m. for faculty, students, and guests.

In the last two decades of the 17th century, ideas about dance notation were
in the air. Pierre Beauchamp was busy devising the system later taken over
and published by Raoul Auger Feuillet in Chorégraphie, Paris 1700. (The work
was actually finished just three hundred years ago; its Privilège du Roy
states "Achevé d'imprimer pour le premier fois le 31 Decembre 1699.") At
least two other systems had been devised: one by Jean Favier l'aîné, known
for his score Le Mariage de la Grosse Cathos (1688), and one by André Lorin
used in his manuscript Livre De Contradance presenté Au Roy par André Lorin
[1686]. These masters, and the many who industriously notated dances and
their airs, left a repertoire of enormous value today.

Bound with Chorégraphie were two collections: one of theater dance examples
by Feuillet, and one of ballroom dances by Louis Pécour. Beginning Workshop
students will learn Pécour's la Bourée d'Achille (menuet, bourée, menuet),
music by Pascal Colasse; intermediate students will learn Le Rigaudon de la
Paix, music anon., Feuillet's opening dance. Advanced students should
discuss with Ms. Hilton well in advance the dance they wish to study.

The contradances for this year's Workshop will be from Lorin's collection in
which all the dances, including some previously published in London by John
Playford, are danced with French steps.

Carol Marsh and Meredith Little will lecture on the dance notations, their
creators and the notated repertoire. A reconstruction of Favier's work will
be shown, and Carol Marsh will teach a couple of dances from the score.
Linda Tomko and Marie-Nathalie Lacoursière will present
lecture-demonstrations in costume on, respectively, aspects of the pastoral
and aspects of the repertoire.

WorkshopAdministrator: Louise M. Pescetta, phone/fax (415) 337-7779; e-mail:
Dolascetta-AT-
earthlink.net.

Baroque Dance & Music Faculty
Wendy Hilton, Director, is the author of Dance and Music of Court and
Theater (1997), co-author with Donald Waxman of Dance Pageant (1992), and a
contributor to the International Encyclopedia of Dance (1998).  Her
choreographic credits include Dardanus by Rameau, and the American premier
of Mary, Queen of Scots by Thea Musgrave. She is on the faculty of The
Juilliard School and general editor of the Pendragon Press series Dance and
Music: the Alliance of the Two Arts. She has been consulted by modern
choreographers such as Jerome Robbins.

Linda Tomko, Co-Director, leads “Les Menus Plaisirs,” a Baroque dance
troupe. She has performed in reconstructions of Baroque dance throughout the
U. S., in Canada and Japan, and choreographed period-style dances for
Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, produced by Stanford's Music Department in 1998.
She holds a Ph.D. in History from UCLA and is Associate Professor of Dance
at U.C. Riverside. She is a contributor to the International Encyclopedia of
Dance (1998); her book, Dancing Class: Gender, Ethnicity, and Social Divides
in American Dance, 1890-1920, is forthcoming from Indiana University Press.

Marie-Nathalie Lacoursière performs in theater, music and dance. She is
co-director of Theâtre Lavalière et Jabot, a Montreal-based troupe of
actors, dancers and musicians specializing in repertoire of the 17th and
18th centuries. With a bachelor's degree in music education, she has studied
techniques for playing with masks (commedia dell'arte, neutre and larvaire).
Her Baroque dance studies have been with Wendy Hilton. She teaches workshops
for musical associations, historical groups and actors, and performs in
Toronto with the Aradia ensemble. She has also danced with period instrument
groups in Ottawa, Quebec, Montreal and at Oberlin College.

Bronwen Pugh, Music Director, a specialist in Baroque violin, studied at the
Royal Conservatory in The Hague with Sigiswald Kuijken. She has played in
several chamber ensembles and Baroque orchestras throughout Europe. She is a
founding member of Restoration and Sonnerie based in Wellington, New
Zealand, and she plays regularly in performances of Baroque music and dance.

Julie Andrijeski, a Baroque violinist and Baroque dancer, served for three
years as Director of the Baroque Orchestra and Instructor of Baroque Dance
at Case Western Reserve University. She now combines her skills as
concertmaster, dancer and/or choreographer in opera projects and workshops
throughout the U.S. A Ph.D. candidate in historical and modern violin
performance at CWRU and the Cleveland Institute of Music, she also keeps a
busy recording schedule.

1999 Baroque Dance Summer Workshop Application

TUITION:
TWO-WEEK (JULY 19-30) __ $475 (non-credit)
ONE-WEEK (JULY 19-23) __ $345 (non-credit)

Registration: Sunday, July 18  (2-6 pm)

__ I would like to reserve a copy of the required text, Hilton's Dance &
Music of Court and Theater, at the special price of $72.
APPLICATION Fee is $15 prior to May 31; $30 after May 31. Application Fee is
due with this form; course fees must be paid by registration day.
Application Fee is non-refundable.

__ Enclosed is my application fee in the amount $____. Please make check
payable to Stanford University, and send this form with your application fee
to Ms. Pescetta.

HOUSING: Conference Office housing is available at $43.75 for single or
$32.00 for double accommodation per night per person.

__ Yes, please send housing information.
 __ No, I will stay off-campus.

To receive housing information, this form must reach us by June 15, 1999.
Please enclose a note with this form if you have any special housing needs
(handicapped access, accompanying family members, etc.).

CONTACT:
Louise M. Pescetta, Administrator
Stanford Baroque Dance Summer Workshop
156 Treeview Drive
Daly City, CA 94014-3469
phone/fax: (415) 337-7779
e-mail: Dolascetta-AT-
earthlink.net
or visit our web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~hcwilson/baroquedance/

NAME _________________________________________________

ADDRESS ______________________________________________

CITY__________________________  STATE_____ ZIP _________

COUNTRY ______________________________________________

TELEPHONE (______) ____________________________________

E-MAIL _________________________________________________

I am primarily in: __ music;  __ dance;  __ history/research; __
opera/drama.

My level of skill in dance is  __ BEGINNING __ INTERMEDIATE  __ ADVANCED  __
PROFESSIONAL

Have you ever studied Baroque dance? ___________________ ___

I learned of this workshop from: ____________________________

All Workshop and housing applications should be sent directly to Ms.
Pescetta. Late applications will be accepted only if space permits.



================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:55:05 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:52:19 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Come Dance With Us!
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04204e02b367ad7e8fbb-AT-
[206.72.193.142]>
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References: <19990518165313.10518.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>

At 9:53 AM -0700 5/18/99, Margherita Davis wrote:
>The Columbia County Country Dancers opens its 1999 season this 
>coming Saturday, May 22, 7:30-10:30 pm. This opening gala will be 
>led by the ebullient Mary Jones of Amherst, with the noted Albany 
>caller, Peter Stix. Music will be by Hudson Crossing: George Davis, 
>strings &
>harmonica; Cara Friedman on winds and Robin Russell on piano

Alas - I will be doing my queenly duties at NYQuilts!, our annual 
quilt show at Russell Sage College in Troy, NY - the show is both 
days.

Mary Beth Goodman
Queen, NYQuilts!
Quilts, vendors, lectures, classes!
May 22-23, 1999
Russell Sage College, Troy NY
http://www.nyquilts.org/
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:23:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:21:36 -0400
From: "Linda M. Nelson" <lindan-AT-
capecod.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: walk throughs
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03130303b367bef0a9a9-AT-
[209.244.244.242]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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sol weber wrote:

>... An occasional "For those who know" is a good idea,
>and perhaps a cautionary marking for somewhat tricky dances as well,
>to give pause to those with reckless tendencies.

Though "FTWK" dances are not as inclusive as we might provide for a general
dance situation, they are a treat for those who just want to flow with a
good dance, to excellent music, with capable fellow dancers who know the
dance well enough to relax and be sociable...

In general, most people who come to fancy dress balls have at least glanced
at the instruction booklets thoughtfully provided by the organizers.  And
there's almost always a practice dance in the afternoon, to brush up less
familiar dances.  Sure, we don't all remember all the steps to all the
dances, but a quick reminder (verbal or walk through) should suffice in
this venue.

(And if you find yourself blanking in the middle of a dance, a partner or
set-mate who can throw a few quick, discreet cues is a priceless jewel...)

Cheers - Linda


__________________________________________________
"Oh, yes.  It's vital to remember who you really are.
It's very important.  It isn't a good idea to rely on other
people or things to do it for you, you see.  They always
get it wrong."        (Terry Pratchett - from "Sourcery")
__________________________________________________


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:22:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:05:40 -0400
From: Michael S Franch <franch-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Prompting at Balls
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990518.222717.6454.3.franch-AT-
juno.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

The Washington Spring Ball was a wonderful evening, made more enjoyable,
in my estimation, by the quiet prompting of the first round or two of
each dance.  I know that I did some dances that were new to me that I
might otherwise have sat out.  I don't think it encouraged people who
were inadequate to the task to attempt a dance, and it certainly did not
detract from my sense of being at a ball for experienced dancers.

Mike Franch
Balto.Md.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Archive-Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:53:46 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 06:52:39 -0400
From: Sharon A McKinley <smckinley-AT-
loc.gov>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: FTWK
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <s7425fe4.052-AT-
loc.gov>
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re: FTWK:
  in my experience, labeling a dance "For those who know," is simply
waving a reg flag in front of those who don't. i love them, myself,
but have never noticed folks who dance on shaky ground sitting down
saying, "no, i don't know that." more typically i've seen them getting
up, saying, "I can do that!" oh, well.
  sharon mckinley
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 06:14:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:13:44 -0400
From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." <IDo-AT-
exist.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: FTWK
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <4.1.19990519091033.00a28a00-AT-
209.183.254.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 06:52 AM 5/19/1999 , you wrote:
>re: FTWK:
>  in my experience, labeling a dance "For those who know," is simply
>waving a reg flag in front of those who don't. i love them, myself,
>but have never noticed folks who dance on shaky ground sitting down
>saying, "no, i don't know that." more typically i've seen them getting
>up, saying, "I can do that!" oh, well.
>  sharon mckinley

Not to mention: "For those who know" is jargon**.  For those who don't know
what "for those who know" means, the implication is lost.  Mention of the
phrase may well be lost, going right over the heads of those for which it
may be intended.

-- Roger
_  _  ________________ _  ____________________________________________
 /__) _,___,  _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: IDo-AT-
exist.com
         _/_               www.just.net/~roger    Dancer-AT-
exist.com
_______ (/____________________________________________________________

**jar-gon (jär'guhn, -gon)  n., v. <-goned, -gon-ing>
              n. 
                  1.  the language, esp. the vocabulary, 
                       peculiar to a particular trade, 
                       profession, or group: medical jargon.
                  2.  unintelligible talk or writing; 
                       gibberish; babble.
                  3.  PIDGIN.
                  4.  language that is characterized by 
                       uncommon or pretentious vocabulary and 
                       convoluted syntax and is often vague in 
                       meaning.
              v.i. 
                  5.  to jargonize.
             [1300-50; ME jargoun < MF; OF jargon, gargun, der. 
             of an expressive base * garg-; see GARGLE, 
             GARGOYLE]
   Derived words
             --jar'gon-y, jar gon-is'tic, adj. 

-- Roger
_  _  ________________ _  ____________________________________________
 /__) _,___,  _   _   /_)  Contra dancing fanatic, English country
/ \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado.  Email: IDo-AT-
exist.com
         _/_               www.just.net/~roger    Dancer-AT-
exist.com
_______ (/____________________________________________________________
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 06:19:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:16:38 -0400
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Come Dance With Us!
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Message-ID: <199905190918_MC2-7642-A222-AT-
compuserve.com>
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My regrets to all and to Marghareta in particular, at being unable to
attend the dance this Saturday. Unfortunately our local Scottish Country
Dance group is having their annual Spring Social Sunday afternoon and it
would be just to much to get down to Stockport (after my s
Saturday swim with grandchildren) and back in time for the Sunday dance.
Regrets-have enjoyed Hundson Crossing and had much delight in dancing at
Stockport last summer.

Ben Stein
Burlington, Vt. USA
dancers-AT-
compuserve.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:20:34 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:18:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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It strikes me that what we're talking *around*, without so far (this time!) 
talking about,  is how to make sure the dancing at balls is gratifying both 
to the more and the less experienced dancer.  Commentary?

Nilos 
PS Or am I just flogging another dead morris dancer? ...er, horse....
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From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: FTWK
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Actually, I am a great proselytizer and have introduced thousands - no
kidding - to ECD, both historical and traditional. But let me pretend for a
moment that I'm a dance snob. I know the 'for those who know' dance(s) cold
and am relishing the opportunity to dance it (them) with others who are
equally knowledgeable. Everyone in the set knows the different formations,
sequences, 'magic moments' and has enough 'space' to dance gracefully as
part of the set. A truly grand experience!

So now let's take the more common situation: you need ONE more person for
Newcastle or Step Stately. Some non-dancer decides to believe the 
'we'll help you through it' and joins the set, if reluctantly. Yes, perhaps
you'll get to the final bars of the final figure correctly. But the price
for seven people (or five) is rather disproportionate, they all try to be
'helpful' and hover over the last one's actions. And at the end they MAY
have come through the dance, but did anyone of them actually enjoy it the
way it was intended?

Of course, there's the problem of leaving knowledgeable dancers out of one
of their favorite FTWK dance because all sets are complete without her/him.
At the early Germantown Balls the rule was that all set dances were danced
twice, and the left-out folks had the right to tap someone else out for the
second dancing. No need to resort to 'we'll help you through it'. And it
worked just fine for everybody.

FTWK dances should be used judiciously. A fair number of dancers at an
event who know the dance(s) is important. It helps if the dance is a
well-known local favorite.

As far as the dragging in of a last person to complete a set is concerned:
in principle almost everyone is able to learn almost any dance - in time.
You don't start your violin studies by practicing your graduation piece.
Scales first, practice of necessary skills - slowly....Encouragement to
dance well within one's experience and GRADUAL horizon expansion is often
not emphasized. In a learning session you can take as much time as
necessary to familiarize folks with grand movements and minutiae, and
that's when less experienced dancers can acquaint themselves with those
FTWK dances. It takes courage to refuse an offer 'because I'm not sure of
it', but there can be a second round for those with a more sluggish memory.
And is it not fair to ask someone to watch that for which they are not
ready, but may be aspiring to do at some point in time?

Can you imagine a string quartet with one missing member inviting someone
who 'also plays a little viola' to sit in?


  _-AT-
_      {)/'
 /\ /\_._,<_/
'  \      /_\
   />    /<  Hanny Budnick


 
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:42:16 -0400
From: Joyce Crouch <joycecrouch-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: FTWK
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>>>Not to mention: "For those who know" is jargon**.  For those who don't
know
what "for those who know" means, the implication is lost.  Mention of the
phrase may well be lost, going right over the heads of those for which it
may be intended.<<<

True, and it's always struck me as having an unpleasantly snobbish sound to
it.  I myself am delighted to have occasional dance experiences of this
type, whether at balls, private parties, or regular dances, but I prefer
them to be announced as "for those who already know this dance and don't
need prompting (or "...don't need a walk-through")" or some such clear
explanation that takes no appreciable extra time to say, but is friendlier.
 

The timing of the announcement is important...needs to be before people are
lining up their next partner, such as right before the previous dance is
taught.

Joyce Crouch
Amherst, MA







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From: "Paul J. Stamler" <pstamler-AT-
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On Wed, 19 May 1999, Hanny D. Budnick wrote:

> So now let's take the more common situation: you need ONE more person for
> Newcastle or Step Stately. Some non-dancer decides to believe the 
> 'we'll help you through it' and joins the set, if reluctantly. Yes, perhaps
> you'll get to the final bars of the final figure correctly. But the price
> for seven people (or five) is rather disproportionate, they all try to be
> 'helpful' and hover over the last one's actions. And at the end they MAY
> have come through the dance, but did anyone of them actually enjoy it the
> way it was intended?

Probably not -- but would they have enjoyed sitting on the sidelines better?
 
Peace.
Paul
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In a message dated 5/19/99 3:26:36 PM, you wrote:

<<Can you imagine a string quartet with one missing member inviting someone
who 'also plays a little viola' to sit in?>>

How else do you get someone to play the viola part?

Carl
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From: Anne Marie Edden <aedden-AT-
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Subject: RE: FTWK
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FORWARDED MESSAGE from Joyce Crouch  at 5/19/99 11:42 AM
{... but I prefer
them to be announced as "for those who already know this dance and don't
need prompting (or "...don't need a walk-through")" or some such clear
explanation that takes no appreciable extra time to say, but is friendlier.

Joyce Crouch
Amherst, MA}
***** NOTES from Anne Marie Edden (AEDDEN -AT-
 GRUSAM) at 5/19/99 2:00 PM
Don't contra dancers refer to them as "No walk-through contras"? This 
describes the level of expectation that I have usually found - a talk 
through, some prompting, but no teaching. Then there are those rare birds - 
the "Uncalled dances" or "No MC dances", when someone announces the dance 
and then steps down to dance in a set. Perhaps we need to distinguish one 
from the other. My guess is that FTWK once described the latter, but now is 
more likely to refer to the former. 

Annie Edden
Bklyn, NY
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From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: RE: FTWK
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On Wed, 19 May 1999, Anne Marie Edden wrote:

> Don't contra dancers refer to them as "No walk-through contras"? 

A "No walk-through" contra is generally not announced by name, but _is_
called.  Even if it were named, probably not too many dancers would
recognize it by name, even if they basically were familiar with the dance.

A "FTWK" English Country dance is generally announced by name beforehand,
and FTWK, hearing the name will generally bring to mind the figures -- or
at least will with a brief response to "remind me how it starts" when
names & dances get jumbled up a bit, or "how does the tune go?" or
something like that.

The association of tune and dance typical in ECD but generally not found
in contra contributes to this being a viable way to do some of the
better-known English Country dances.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

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One of my favorite dance camp memories is the time at at BACDS weekend at 
Monte Toyon when the band started playing Chorus Jig, and the dancers simply 
formed a set and started dancing!  It was after hours, so it was acoustic 
music with volunteer musicians.  There was (at that moment) no caller.  

People simply recognized the music and joined the bottom of the set, which 
soon grew to several minor sets in length.  Surely, this is how country 
dancing used to be!

Reine Wonite
Chico, CA 
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In a message dated 5/19/99 2:59:41 PM, eba-AT-
umich.edu writes:

<< A "FTWK" English Country dance is generally announced by name beforehand,
and FTWK, hearing the name will generally bring to mind the figures ... The 
association of tune and dance typical in ECD but generally not found in 
contra contributes to this being a viable way to do some of the better-known 
English Country dances.>>  Hear, hear!

One occasionally runs into a vehementally anti English dance snob (or should 
it be English dance anti-snob?) who says "who cares about the name, it's the 
dance that counts, etc, etc..." I've always felt that the names, like the 
tunes, are inseparable from the figures, & a lovely way to connect it all in 
one's mind & body.

Judy Grunberg


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:00:36 -0700
From: "Andrew D. Peterson" <adpete-AT-
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Hi All,

I am reminded by this thread of two stories:

George Fogg was teaching Newcastle at one of his balls some years ago and to the
best of my memory he said, "I am teaching this dance because I thought for the
longest time that the name was Newcastle for those who know because that was
always the way it was always done."

Dudley Laufman used to do one dance FTWK during an evening. He would just
announce that the next dance was for those who know it.  He never told us what
the dance was; he would just begin playing the music. The band didn't always
know what it was going to be. He would do Chorus Jig or Hull's Victory or some
other common chestnut and if you didn't know what dance went with that music,
you didn't belong on the floor. The problem today with that approach is that
most contra groups don't do the old chestnuts and they use the tunes for other
dances.

Which brings me to another gripe which Nan Evans already heard about. At the
Portland Ball last November, the tune always associated with The Chestnut was
used for All Saints Day. I had a very difficult time doing ASD because the music
was telling me to do other things. It just didn't fit the music. That is the
difference of using a specific tune for a specific dance. Whenever a contra band
used Morpeth Rant for a contra dance it really messes with my head because I
used to do that dance almost every week and even now I'm programmed.

Andy Peterson
Portland, Oregon

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From: "Andrew D. Peterson" <adpete-AT-
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Originally the "for those who know" dances were generally Playford dances
common to the repertoire of most, if not all, dance groups. I now am often
seeing FTWK dances that I've never heard of and I have been dancing ECD for
about 35 of my 50 years. If they are not dances that are commonly done by all
groups they should be called "look how clever we are to have found this dance
somewhere" dances.

Andy Peterson

================================================================================
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Michael S Franch wrote:

> The Washington Spring Ball was a wonderful evening, made more enjoyable,
> in my estimation, by the quiet prompting of the first round or two of
> each dance.  I know that I did some dances that were new to me that I
> might otherwise have sat out.

I remember Christine Helwig's comment about the practice of not doing a
walk-though before each dance at a ball. She said, "I equate it with The
Final Exam." I am in complete agreement with this analysis. I have been
dancing for 35 ECD years and I don't remember every movement of every dance
I've ever done. I certainly wouldn't presume to expect people from out of
town who are coming in to enjoy the local ball to have memorized every dance
including those they have never had the opportunity to dance before. I
personnally don't learn well by just reading the instructions from a book
and to have someone stand on the stage and recite the instructions for an
unfamiliar dance without benefit of a quick walk through is not at all
helpful to me.

Andy Peterson

================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 05:58:56 -0700
From: Norman Bradley <normanb-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Performance ECD
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As our season begins I find myself wondering if there are any other
performers/troupes on the list that regularly perform for an audience?

Our schedule this year includes 6 weekends of Renaissance fairs.

Norman Bradley
Merri Pryanksters
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:39:38 +0100
From: Eldridge Keith <Keith.Eldridge-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: RE: Performance ECD
To: "'ECD-AT-
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PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, ECD-AT-
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Norman Bradley < normanb-AT-
pryanksters.org >

> As our season begins I find myself wondering if there are any other
> performers/troupes on the list that regularly perform for an audience?

I dance with the Adlington Folk Dance Display Team.  We perform a variety of
English Country Dances.  In the past few years we have specialised in the
Dances that were used in the BBC TV productions of "Pride & Prejudice",
"Emma", etc.
On Sunday 13th June 1999 we will be performing at Lyme Hall (used for the
exterior of Mr Darcey's House in Pride & Prejudice).  A couple of
photographs of the first time we danced there can be found at <
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Opsis/pp_lymeh.htm >

Regards
	Elmo.
-- 
--Keith Elmo ELDRIDGE
--Manchester, England
--elmo-AT-
opsis-training.freeserve.co.uk   Keith.Eldridge-AT-
labsystems.com
--I am, therefore I dance. I dance therefore I am.
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:39:38 +0100
From: Eldridge Keith <Keith.Eldridge-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: RE: Performance ECD
To: "'ECD-AT-
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PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, ECD-AT-
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Norman Bradley < normanb-AT-
pryanksters.org >

> As our season begins I find myself wondering if there are any other
> performers/troupes on the list that regularly perform for an audience?

I dance with the Adlington Folk Dance Display Team.  We perform a variety of
English Country Dances.  In the past few years we have specialised in the
Dances that were used in the BBC TV productions of "Pride & Prejudice",
"Emma", etc.
On Sunday 13th June 1999 we will be performing at Lyme Hall (used for the
exterior of Mr Darcey's House in Pride & Prejudice).  A couple of
photographs of the first time we danced there can be found at <
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Opsis/pp_lymeh.htm >

Regards
	Elmo.
-- 
--Keith Elmo ELDRIDGE
--Manchester, England
--elmo-AT-
opsis-training.freeserve.co.uk   Keith.Eldridge-AT-
labsystems.com
--I am, therefore I dance. I dance therefore I am.
================================================================================
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What a lot of interesting comments. "For them as knows it" used to appear on 
the Round Playford Ball programme - don't know if it still does - but to my 
knowledge that was, and still is, an exception.
	At the Cheltenham Ball this year (which I MC'd), I had put out 
instruction leaflets in advance with the tickets, and for a couple of the 
dances (Newcastle and Picking of Sticks) I wrot no instructions out, but said 
"For them as knows it". At the Ball itself, when I announced the dance i said 
"this dance will not be taught or walked through, so you are on your own, as 
I am going to dance". It worked very well, better than most of the rest of 
the programme (!), and to my knowledge there was only one dancer who went 
wrong with the lines in Newcastle - guess who!!!!!!!
										
						Nicolas B. 
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:35:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
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Subject: Re:  ECD Digest V1 #518
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On Thu, 20 May 1999 SallenNic-AT-
aol.com wrote:

> 	At the Cheltenham Ball this year (which I MC'd), I had put out 
> instruction leaflets in advance with the tickets, and for a couple of the 
> dances (Newcastle and Picking of Sticks) I wrot no instructions out, but said 
> "For them as knows it". At the Ball itself, when I announced the dance i said 
> "this dance will not be taught or walked through, so you are on your own, as 
> I am going to dance". It worked very well, better than most of the rest of 
> the programme (!), and to my knowledge there was only one dancer who went 
> wrong with the lines in Newcastle - guess who!!!!!!!

A minor difficulty that can arise in situations like this is that there is
no really "standard version" that folks agree on for some of the dances,
particularly those whose interpretation required some imagination and
creativity on the part of the interpreters.  Even without that sort of
variety, having one person doing Sharp's original interpretation of siding
with another who is used to that advocated by Shaw can lead to Sudden
Avoidance Maneuvers. 

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:13:16 -0400
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Performance ECD
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At 05:58 AM 5/20/99 -0700, Norman Bradley wrote:
>As our season begins I find myself wondering if there are any other
>performers/troupes on the list that regularly perform for an audience?

Hi, Norman!

Lots of folks on the list are on demo teams: Philadelphia's Germantown
Colonial Assembly, Connecticut's Reel Nutmeg, New York's Chelsea English
Country Dancers, Seattle's Nonesuch English Country Dancers are just a few
of the groups that come to mind.

For info on Chelsea, check CD*NY's website:

http://www.cdny.org/english/chelsea.htm

Happy dancing--
Sharon Green
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Archive-Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:26:57 PST
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:31:55 -0800
From: Laurie Andres <lcandres-AT-
earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: FTWK
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Hey Andy,

I kind of agree with your point about All Saints Day, but Chestnut is such a great
tune it's easy to understand why it would inspire someone to make up a new
choreography to the tune. Here's a couple of suggestions to help relieve the
confusion by using one tune for two dances. Both require the use of the magnificent
and invaluable " The Complete Country Dance Tunes from Playford's Dancing Master
(1651-ca.1728" edited by Jeremy Barlow. The book is available from CDSS. Many of
Playford's tunes went through several versions with subsequent editions. You could
use the version of Chestnut from the Dancing Master's 4th edition as opposed to the
1st edition version published by Cecil Sharp. There are also at least a hundred or
so tunes from The Dancing Master for dances that have never been revived. There are
a lot of gems and some clinkers scattered amongst these tunes.

Here are some alternative tunes that have an eight bar A part and a 16 bar B part
like chestnut.

16.    Chirping of the Nightingale
28     Glory of the West
49     Kemp's Jig - G minor version
81     Prince Rupert's March
121   Ginnie Pug
133   The Twins

Andrew D. Peterson wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am reminded by this thread of two stories:
>
> George Fogg was teaching Newcastle at one of his balls some years ago and to the
> best of my memory he said, "I am teaching this dance because I thought for the
> longest time that the name was Newcastle for those who know because that was
> always the way it was always done."
>
> Dudley Laufman used to do one dance FTWK during an evening. He would just
> announce that the next dance was for those who know it.  He never told us what
> the dance was; he would just begin playing the music. The band didn't always
> know what it was going to be. He would do Chorus Jig or Hull's Victory or some
> other common chestnut and if you didn't know what dance went with that music,
> you didn't belong on the floor. The problem today with that approach is that
> most contra groups don't do the old chestnuts and they use the tunes for other
> dances.
>
> Which brings me to another gripe which Nan Evans already heard about. At the
> Portland Ball last November, the tune always associated with The Chestnut was
> used for All Saints Day. I had a very difficult time doing ASD because the music
> was telling me to do other things. It just didn't fit the music. That is the
> difference of using a specific tune for a specific dance. Whenever a contra band
> used Morpeth Rant for a contra dance it really messes with my head because I
> used to do that dance almost every week and even now I'm programmed.
>
> Andy Peterson
> Portland, Oregon

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:49:37 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:52:05 -0400
From: "Mary K. Friday" <marykfriday-AT-
erols.com>
Subject: Chestnut/All Saints Day [Was"Re: FTWK]
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <374459D5.1F5D-AT-
erols.com>
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References: <b68ed78e.24748f61-AT-
aol.com> <3743A504.57AEFB62-AT-
jps.net> <37446323.E44D3D0B-AT-
earthlink.net>

While "Chestnut" is surely a classic dance, it isn't done much in our
area, and it is too good a tune to waste!  Besides, I like it played
differently for the two dances, kind of bouncy and cheery for
"Chestnut," smooth and flowing for "All Saints Day" -- and the tune
works both ways!  Needless to say, I'm a fan of the dance "All Saints
Day."  ("Chestnut" is fine, too!)

Let's all dance more....
Mary Kay Friday
Washington, D.C. 

Laurie Andres wrote:
> 
> Hey Andy,
> 
> I kind of agree with your point about All Saints Day, but Chestnut is such a great
> tune it's easy to understand why it would inspire someone to make up a new
> choreography to the tune. 
<snip>
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:55:48 PST
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:52:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chicoqueen-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: FTWK
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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In a message dated 5/19/1999 11:02:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
adpete-AT-
jps.net writes:

> Which brings me to another gripe which Nan Evans already heard about. At the
>  Portland Ball last November, the tune always associated with The Chestnut  
was
>  used for All Saints Day. I had a very difficult time doing ASD because the 
 music
>  was telling me to do other things. It just didn't fit the music. That is 
the
>  difference of using a specific tune for a specific dance. Whenever a 
contra  band
>  used Morpeth Rant for a contra dance it really messes with my head because 
I
>  used to do that dance almost every week and even now I'm programmed.
>  

I had to tell the house band for the Chico dance to stop using the Chorus Jig 
reel in their contra medleys for the same reason -- it was a fight for me to 
stick to calling the dance I'd chosen and not start calling the figures for 
CJ instead.

Reine Wonite
Chico, CA
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:04:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:03:18 +0700
From: adpete-AT-
jps.net
Subject: ECD at Northwest Folklife
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Hi all,

I have been looking at the schedule for the Northwest Folklife Festival in Seattle
on Memorial Day weekend. There isnt very much ECD on the schedule. Here are
the ones I found:

Dance Performance

Nonesuch English Country Dance  SAT 05/29/1999
      3:40PM - 4:10PM     Mural Amphitheatre 

Participatory Dancing

Judi Rivkin W/ Tricky Brits  MON 05/31/1999 
      1:30PM - 2:20PM     Flag Pavilion West 

Judi Rivkin W/TrickyBrits    MON 05/31/1999 
      1:00PM - 1:30PM     Flag Pavilion West 


Nan Evans calling w/ Goldman, Nussbaum, Towers 
      SAT 05/29/1999 
      11:00AM - 11:50AM   Flag Pavilion West 

There may be other groups I'm not familiar with. 

Flag Pavilion West is known as The Roadhouse. Every year a large group of volunteers
assemble the dance floor before the festival and particapatory dancing runs
until midnight all four festival days. It is mostly contras in there. Scandinavian
participatory dance is Saturday night in the Center House main courtyard. International
dance is Friday night in the Center House.

For those of you who have never been to Folklife, check out their website at
<http://www.nwfolklife.org/folklife/> and come join the fun.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:54:17 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Return-Path: jkonvalinka-AT-
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:30:48 -0400
From: John W Konvalinka <jkonvalinka-AT-
email.msn.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Performance ECD
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: elmo-AT-
opsis-training.freeserve.co.uk, Keith.Eldridge-AT-
labsystems.com
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greendale.labsystems.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Eldridge Keith <Keith.Eldridge-AT-
labsystems.com>
> On Sunday 13th June 1999 we will be performing at Lyme Hall (used for the
> exterior of Mr Darcey's House in Pride & Prejudice).  A couple of
> photographs of the first time we danced there can be found at <
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Opsis/pp_lymeh.htm >

Great page!  Here's a link you might want to add:

http://www.lll.hawaii.edu/esl/bley-vroman/contra/dances/austen.html

It's got the names and sound clips of all (or most of) the dances used in
the P&P series.
(works better with Netscape than with IE -- at least on my computer)


John Konvalinka

----------------------------------------------------------------------
  ||||||| Please be sure to visit our family web site ||||||||:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jkonvalinka
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:30:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:11:21 -0400
From: Michael Bergman <eclectic-AT-
mit.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Renaissance Dance in Cambridge, MA
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v0401171ab36b7bdd8de5-AT-
[24.128.25.60]>
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Not exactly ECD -- last month we did ECD and alleged precursors (Almans)
but this month we'll be doing, um, well, French and Italian dances.  But
French and Italian dances that were probably danced in England, too!

Tuesday, May 25th, John Tyson, of Renaissonics, will be playing recorder &
pipe and tabor, and Ken Pierce, of The Longy School of Music, will be
teaching Renaissance Dances at the Old Cambridge Baptist Church, 1151 Mass
Ave, Cambridge, just outside Harvard Square (towards MIT).

Ken expects to be working with some of the following:  Alemana d'Amore,
Negri's Spagnoletto, The Girl from Milan (an odd galliard from Arbeau),
some eleven-step Galliard variations, some Bransles.

The dance is at 7:30, runs till 10:00.  Admission is $5, with a $1 discount
for CDS and SCA members.  Refreshments are included: probably bread and
cheese and fruit and shortbread.

The hall is an historic landmark gothic revival building, with a lovely
little parish hall that we use for the dance.  Nice wooden floor (though
squeaky).  Good acoustics.  Nice stained-glass.

The dance is co-sponsored by the Country Dance Society, Boston Centre.

For further information, email or call me: eclectic-AT-
mit.edu, (617) 964-7684

--Mike Bergman
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:37:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:37:35 +0700
From: adpete-AT-
jps.net
Subject: Petronella turn revisited.
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Mary Devlin called a dance tonight with a Petronella turn in it and made a point
telling people not to clap but to make the circle at the right time. It worked
for a while until one or two rebels insisted on clapping then a few others joined
in. 
I noticed three things: 
1) If people take the time to use all four beats for the turn, they don't have
time to clap. 
2) Any time there was someone in the foursome who clapped, the circle was late
being formed .
3) The "magic moment" discussed earlier in this thread was lost because the
forming of the circle was rushed while people started the balance.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:25:27 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tideswell-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Chance of a lifetime
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3a330b0a.2479f63e-AT-
aol.com>
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SOS SOS SOS SOS

Pinewoods has just lost its third cook for the coming summer, due to an 
illness in her family.  If any of you out there in ECD land know (or, for 
that matter, are) a smart, hard-working, cheerful person who would like to 
change their summer plans on extremely short notice, please have them get in 
touch with Eileen Callahan, the camp manager at
manager-AT-
pinewoods.org.

Thanks!  Pray for us...

Nilos Nevertheless
PS Please don't send replies to this e-mail to the list, as I've signed off 
for the summer.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:17:26 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: ECD in Princeton, NJ Wednesday, May 26
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9905181649410.24787-100000-AT-
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The Princeton Country Dancers present one of our all-too-rare Wednesday
evenings of English country dancing with

Beverly Francis, caller
Kathy Talvitie, Pete Soloway, and Susie Lorand, musicians

Wed., May 26, 8-10:30 p.m.

at the Suzanne Patterson Center, Princeton, NJ, USA
(behind Borough Hall near intersection of Routes 27 and 206)

See http://eno.princeton.edu/~ben/lcd/main.html or e-mail me 
for directions.

The SPC is convenient to train & bus - details on the web page.

Hope to see some of you there!

Susie Lorand

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:25:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:08:38 -0400
From: Michael S Franch <franch-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Mary Kay Friday
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990525.233146.6470.0.franch-AT-
juno.com>
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Mary Kay Friday suffered what appears to be a small stroke on Saturday,
5/22.  She is in George Washington University Hospital but hopes to be
discharged soon, perhaps tomorrow (5/26).  She has been receiving strong
support from the ECD community in Washington and Baltimore as well as
from elsewhere, and would welcome hearing from others.  I spoke to her
tonight, and I can say that her sense of humor is perfectly intact.  She
also said that people should feel free to call when she gets home--she'll
let the machine pick it up if she's not feeling up to talking.  Her phone
number is in the CDSS directory, or email her at marykfriday-AT-
erols.com.

Mike Franch
Baltimore

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:57:25 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:56:58 -0700
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: GUSTO callers' course (very long)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
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I took the GUSTO "Further Calling" course over the 5/14-16/1999 week-
end.  GUSTO is an acronym for Grand Union Structured Training Organi-
sation.  This is a training organization which offers structured
courses (i.e. courses on different subjects, at different levels), and
which is situated near the Grand Union canal (I thought its name was
more than a little pompous until I made that last connection).  Very
roughly, GUSTO franchises dancer and caller training for the EFDSS,
but there are politics involved in the relationship.  "Further Cal-
ling" is the level above Basic Calling and has that course as pre-
requisite.  I pleaded equivalent experience and was admitted.  The fee
was 120 pounds, including tuition, meals and lodging.

BEFOREHAND

I found the course on the GUSTO web page <http://www.withgusto.
freeserve.co.uk/gusto.htm>.  I was already going to be in England on
one of Ken McFarland's tours, so I signed up.  My goals: be stretched,
see how others see me, and share ideas for caller training.

There was quite a bit of work assigned beforehand:
* A Calling Log, of several hours of my own calling, the nature of the
  gig, number and experience of dances, dances called, tunes chosen,
  style points made, and reflections on how it went.
* An observation log, of several hours of my watching other callers
  and answering specific questions.
* Choose a dance to call "for technique" at the course
* Choose a dance for "calling while dancing"
* Pick several dances from a given list for an evening program
* Bring as many books/cards as possible to the course (no reason
  given).

FRIDAY

My packet was ready when I arrived.  It contained a schedule, more
assignments to do during the course, a nametag (students wore them,
but not tutors, not musicians, not dancers).  There was no list of
attendees or tutors.  There are 2 tracks, and we get the schedule for
our track only.

Immediately (before dinner!) comes our 1st assignment: here are your
team members, here's a list of all the dances you chose (not broken
out by who chose what).  Make an 18-dance program in the next hour.
No whiteboard and no flip chart, but also no observation or inter-
ference.  It proves to be almost a stereotypical team-building
exercise, except most of us are already exhausted before we start, and
we will actually have to call this program.

I, at least, don't know a thing about the music for tonight's dance,
so I ask:
  Live or recorded? Live
  What instruments: Fiddle, accordion, woodwinds
  Who's playing?
  How do you spell those?
I feel no reluctance behind the answers, but the answerer doesn't
volunteer any of it, either (and it's not in our packet).  I'm the
only one who writes it down.

We set to work, quickly learn each other's personalities, and bang out
a program, then off to the welcome circle (which didn't include the
musicians, as I recall) and dinner.

The dance/workshops are up the street, in the Grange Hall.  There is
no map or directions in my packet, none on the bulletin board.  We are
given verbal directions, which I instantly forget (a lesson for
callers already!).  Grab a coaster from the bar and write them down
while I have them repeated.

The hotel does have a bulletin board, by the way, overflowing with
announcements of country western line dancing.  One is a publicity
photo of a woman in western attire, holding an electric guitar.  Her
name, in bold italic type, is "Pat Shaw."

The Grange hall is already set up when we arrive, and one musician is
there.  Callers, dancers and tutor from my track (track A) gather and
start.  I don't remember anyone introducing the musicians to us.

Having discovered each other's personalities, we now get to discover
our calling styles.  Those, and our levels of skill, vary widely (I'd
like to say from X to Y, but the skill is multidimensional and I don't
know what the dimensions are, nor how to quantify points along them).
We are observed and notes taken, but we're not videotaped, and there
is no feedback that night.  We have 15 dancers, and several 4-couple
dances on our program.  We've been substituting, but that's tough on
the band and the callers.  I doubt this is supposed to be part of the
challenge, and wish the tutor would borrow a dancer from Track B.  But
I don't ask.  We hew to our schedule pretty well, and break at 9:30,
just as Track B breaks.  Tea, coffee, and cookies, and talk together.
Then back to it.

After the break we get Track B's dancers, so the problem goes away.
I'm up last.  I call three easy dances and still manage to drop eight
bars out of one.  The band covers for me, and I get through the whole
thing without noticing.  It's a combination of the stress of the
situation, the unfamiliarity of the setting and the unremitting pace.
Valuable for me to feel this (not just know it intellectually) for my
own callers classes.  After my last dance, I publicly thank the band
members, by name, and they seem surprised.  The applause is light,
even though they have done an outstanding job supporting six different
callers, some inexperienced.  It feels to me as though there is little
appreciation for musicians, by people at all levels in the course.

Back at the hotel I fill out my calling log and then we sit in the bar
talking until it closes.

SATURDAY

Buffet breakfast, and back to the Grange Hall.  We have theory
sessions while Track B uses the dancing space.  Our first is on
weaving technique work into teaching dances.  The speaker rambles, but
the subject is excellent and he always comes back to it.  We dance an
illustration before breaking.  The next theory session is on
repertoire.  I see the first use of our calling logs: an objective
measure of the variety in what I actually call -- variety measured in
number of different dance sources vs. e.g., period, difficulty,
rhythm, formations, etc.  I would have said subjectively that my
repertoire was pretty narrow by this measure; objectively, it's even
narrower than that.  I also see the US vs. UK stock of books: most
titles I don't have, and my second-heaviest category (after Sharp)
winds up being "other." A discomfort finally bubbles to the surface
and I ask WHY we are assuming that a wider variety is an improvement.
The tutor is frank and undefensive, and we quickly find a common
ground: you have to choose which sources you use--it's impossible not
to choose.  By exploring a wide variety you can make an informed
choice rather than an uninformed choice.  I note as I'm writing this
up that GUSTO's form measures what my choices are, rather than how
informed they are, but I think this is a bow to time pressure.  In any
case, it's my information and my choice.

Break all together again.  We mostly talk with members of our own
track.  Rather than fault poor mixing, I marvel at how our first
exercises have pulled the tracks together.  It's something my own
course is not nearly as good at.

Then we get the dance hall for "Calling for Technique." I take this to
be a session with explicit improvement of dancing and, since we were
asked to choose a dance, I assume we're to use the dance as a vehicle.
Since we are given 15 minutes, and one typically allows 10 for a
walkthrough and dance, this is 2:1 geography vs. technique.  That's
light, to my taste, for an explicit technique session, and I use all
15 of my minutes.  Interestingly, my session was both well-received
and quite different from the norm.  The norm was a dance, often
complex, with no demonstration and just 2-3 requests for things like
timing and lines.  Since (I think) all the other attendees are
graduates of the prior course, this suggests that the course doesn't
teach what is wanted.  In fairness, my course doesn't teach that
either, though I've been laying some groundwork.  There's room for
GUSTO and me to do a lot more in this area.  I wonder whether deleting
the dance and asking for, say, 10 minutes of pure technique would
result in student growth or collapse.

In our spare time during this session :-) we were to observe one of
the other callers and note what points were asked for during each
phase of the presentation (there is no place to record points asked
for while the dancers are dancing, one of my favorite times!).  Un-
fortunately, I am needed in every dance, and never get to fill this
out.  I realize by now that the tutors are busier than the students,
and can't monitor the dancers.  It looks as though a role needs to be
invented to balance the dancers between the rooms.

Lunch, then "Calling for Development." I forgot to ask what the goal
is for this component of the course, so I'll infer it from the
implementation, and hope a tutor will correct me.  It appears to be an
assignment to call a dance in a style outside our normal repertoire;
from this I infer that the goal is to stretch our repertoire.  I said
above that I accept this goal, but I'm disappointed to see it ranked
above, say, a refresher on the Running Step, vocal projection,
rhythmic talking, working with a band, or teaching a new figure.
Anyway, the assignments were chosen by the tutors and sent out well
beforehand, so we could practice.  Mine was to call an American contra
or square.  I chose a singing square, verified that the band could
deliver it, and practiced to Bob Dalsemer's tape in my car.  When my
turn came to check in with the band about tempo and key, and found
that they play a different version! :-(

   LESSON: communicate tunes by sheet music or cassette, not by title.  

I wasn't going to practice this hard and come this far to drop out,
but I couldn't make the calls fit what the band was playing, and the
band couldn't play the one I knew.  We brought the on-deck caller to
bat, the band gave me their sheet music, and I went out back to see
what I could do.  It turned out that only the first two bars were
different.  So I practiced those, in the figure and break, took the
next turn up, and got through.  I dropped the tune once or twice, but
just called tunelessly (something we practice in my callers class!)
until I got it back, and I didn't mess up "partner" and "corner" as I
often had in practice.  I forgot to give a tempo to the band, and they
gave me a perfect one.  It was a pretty flat dance, but a small
victory for me.  I may even call it again sometime.

This is the session they chose to videotape.  I think the idea is that
our weaknesses are more visible; but my own experience is that weak-
nesses are plenty visible any time you see yourself on tape.  I think
it'd be more powerful to show us in the middle of our comfort zone, so
we couldn't invent any excuses.  I spoke to the tutors about this
afterward and they pointed out that none of the sessions matches what
everyone does at home.  Point taken, and I still think that this
session is the one where we're least likely to be ourselves.

Then homework--fill out a questionnaire about the dance I just
called--then dance the other callers' dances and work off the spare
adrenaline (one dance was Morpeth Rant--yay!).  Then break, and a
theory session.

This session was more mixed and had no handout, so I can't tell you
what the topic was.  But I took home a small gem.  I asked about
pleasing a very mixed group and the tutor said that she scans the
books for easy dances that no one ever does, and files them away,
especially those with something novel.  Then, when faced with a mixed
group, she trots out one of these.  Beginners enjoy the dance, and
hotshots enjoy the novelty.

After dinner, Track B has the dance hall (calling the program they
prepared that afternoon under time pressure.  I wonder if they became
a team as fast as we, having a different start).  We practice Calling
While Dancing.  Everyone had picked (beforehand) a dance within their
grasp, and this goes smoothly.  I am in awe at the complexity of the
dances that are within the grasp of my fellow callers (The Greeting,
Queen of Sheba...).  Then an assignment: fill out a questionnaire
(good, revealing questions) on what we just did.  This segment was in
the smaller of the two halls, which held a 4-couple set but was tight
for a 6-couple longways.  There was thus no challenge in being heard,
watching several sets at once, choosing a position/ partner, nor
working with the band from a distance.  I won't second-guess the
organizers -- the hall may have been a last-minute choice -- but this
time might have been put to better use.

After a break we had another theory session.  I was concerned about a
sit-and-listen session starting at 9:30 pm, but I needn't have been.
The first half was a recounting of tales of some early EFDSS teachers.
Before the course began, this tutor's writing had me scribbling "so
what" as fast as I could, but I found the in-person session inspiring.
The second half was on the use of music and musicians, and here I'll
name names: Colin Hume was well-prepared, clear and direct, moved
smartly from subject to subject, dealt responsively with questions,
and chose relevant, practical topics.  Some of us noticed later that
he hadn't said anything about paying musicians, so I asked and he said
that in England it's not the caller who does that.  Those of us in the
States may want to be sure that's in our syllabus, however.

In the bar again until closing, with Doug and Pat Petersen.  They had
come on Ken McFarland's tour.  When I told Pat of the course, she
wanted to sign up, but was too late.  So she and Doug signed on as
dancers.  The organizers -- every one of them -- then included her as
a student wherever the logistics allowed.  This type and amount of
flexibility runs counter to my experience with other organizations in
the UK.

While we're in the bar, let me mention one other thing.  GUSTO has
adopted as a motto, "Standards without Standardisation."  One thing
(possibly among others) that they want this to convey is that they
accept local variations in dances and figures, and simply want you to
do well whatever you do.  I can't speak to the "standards" part (more
on that in a second), but I saw the acceptance of local variation
tested, and the responses always seemed reasonable: the kind of
variation one actually finds between cities, coasts, and even
countries, raised no comment (or was explicitly allowed and the motto
cited), but the kind of variation you get from misreading your
directions or dancing dangerously drew criticism.

In order to find out what they mean by "standards" I would have to see
where they draw the line (and how they draw it) on each of the many
dimensions of calling and of dancing.  They told me that my calling
met their standards and (properly) didn't tell me what they thought of
anyone else's.  Another way to find out where they draw the line would
be for them to tell us, and I've encouraged them to do that.  But I'll
cut them plenty of slack.  If I were doing this, I'd try to set
objective standards beforehand, but I'd try them on several dozen
students before deciding I had the right parameters and the right
thresholds.  And that's just for myself: before publishing them, I'd
try them against readers in all parts of the country, and several
countries, to weed out ambiguities and places where the meaning hinges
on the interpretation of a word or two.  So, while I note that the
motto is unamplified, I'm not criticizing.

SUNDAY

The pace is more relaxed today, and the change is welcome.  There's a
TV in the hall, showing the video from yesterday.  We watch our own
session and any others we want to, with the tutors not present.
Watching myself, I see that I look tethered to the microphone.  I
don't feel that way when calling, but I look just the way I teach my
students not to look.  Interesting!  Concurrently, we have yet another
assignment: to plan a program for The Gig From Hell.  I won't spoil it
for future course attendees, but some work and talent went into
thinking this thing up, and however many dance books/cards you
brought, it isn't enough.  Concurrently, we go off one at a time to
meet with the tutors and hear their critique.  I can't tell you about
the typical session because mine wasn't typical.  I had far more
experience than the typical student, and the tutors and I agree on a
lot of topics.  They went through the list of subjects on which they
were measuring people, and told me that I met their criteria on those.

Back in the hall, I can feel the decompression and freedom.  Some are
busy with assignments, some watching the video, and many are swapping
stories, sharing books, exchanging addresses, and reviewing the
course.  This continues through lunch, and then it's the Final
Session.  This is a general dance, intended to send everyone home with
a glow.  We were told to prepare a dance "which shows you at your
best."  Unfortunately (I guess) some interpreted this to mean showing
how ambitious a dance they could do, with embarrassing results.  Also
unfortunately, the musician was not up on the tunes (many links in
that chain, and I have no opinion about which one broke).  This
resulted in a few more dances being embarrassing.  We ended with a
circle dance, had tea with scones and cream, said our goodbyes and
departed.

By prior arrangement, I met with the tutors (in the bar again.  CDSS,
are you reading this?), this time as peers with a common concern for
training callers.  We swapped ideas and agreed to swap materials.

CLOSURE

After the reviewing the completed assignments, the tutors will grant
or deny accreditation to the students.  I have no idea what the
meaning/benefit of this is.  I guess it's something like the RSCDS
teachers Certificate, which is either a minimum qualification or proof
of merit or both, depending on the circumstances.  This raises
questions about the goal of the weekend: is it a course or an exam? It
could be a course:
* There are lectures.  We were encouraged to ask questions in the
  theory sections, but this was not required, and we were rarely
  called upon to answer any.
* Most of the exercises are powerful self-assessment tools, indicating
  both our present level and directions for growth.
* We learn from working together in the programming exercise and in
  dancing for each other.
* Tutors give us feedback on our strengths and weaknesses.

It could be an exam:
* When we're calling, tutors watch but don't help.
* We never get to practice under the eye of a teacher.  In fact, I
  don't think we ever got to do anything twice.
* It ends with a pass/fail decision.

I have the impression that the tutors are comfortable with this fish +
fowl property, but it raises conflicts:
* If I just wanted to develop my skills, and had committed the time
  and money, I'd want coaching, guidance, graduated exercises, and
  drill throughout the session.
* If we're doing practice and development, we can tolerate running
  things loosely.  On an exam, however, it's unfair to give 7-1/2
  couples to a candidate who's calling a square.
* If we're learning and growing, then trying things, taking risks and
  being spontaneous is called for.  If this is an exam, we want to
  stick with what we know.  This conflict is sharpest on the final
  afternoon, where it can feel like a chance to let our hair down and
  celebrate the work we've done, or feel like a final exam.

In writing this up I wondered if it would work for people to sign up
for course-only or exam-only, and split them into tracks along that
line.  Then the curricula could be different; or at least in the
course track the tutor could give instruction as needed.

SUMMARY

In giving feedback I prefer not to make a summary.  I like to let the
details stand on their own, and let the listeners draw the conclu-
sions; but to others that feels like falling off a cliff.  As a
compromise, I'll recap my goals -- be stretched, see how others see
me, and share ideas for caller training.  The course proper stretched
me only in the repertoire direction, but the assignments stretched the
number and kind of things I pay attention to.  The video let me see
myself (literally) and the tutors' feedback let me hear how they see
me.  They shared ideas unselfishly and helpfully (though we were all
fried).  Even better (and a goal I hadn't thought of) was to feel what
it's like to be in a caller's course that I had no hand in shaping.


 -Bruce Hamilton
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 02:32:15 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:31:29 +0100
From: Hugh Stewart <hugh-AT-
ugsolutions.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO callers' course (very long)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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ugsolutions.com>
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(For my comments on Gusto in general see
 http://www.withgusto.freeserve.co.uk/gnews2.htm )

I think there is probably a cultural issue Bruce missed in that
this side of the Pond we tend to have bands rather than
musicians: Sidmouth advertises bands X, Y and Z whereas
Pinewoods advertises musicians A, B and C.  At dances in
general we expect the band to own and supply the PA rather
than the organisers.  Hence (I suspect) Bruce was suprised
when he thanked the *musicians* by name because they would have
expected him to thank the *band* by name.

(Of course, knowing my luck, it may well have been that for
his weekend course he did have an ad hoc collection of
musicians - in which case thanking them individually was
the right thing to do anyway.)

Hugh Stewart
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:51:30 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:49:04 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO callers' course (very long)
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04204e01b372e1439565-AT-
[206.72.193.228]>
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Thanks Bruce for both putting yourself in the position to experience 
GUSTO (going for all the .... no I won't go there! LOL) and for the 
fine report.

It's always good to hear about other aspects of what we do!  Sounds 
like it was very good for the thinking person - lots of revelations 
and input towards what you're working on.

Mary Beth
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:49:13 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
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Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: FTWK
To: ECD-AT-
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References: <ba0c39ca.2475ec47-AT-
aol.com>


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:17:24 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:16:04 -0400
From: Benjamin Stein <dancers-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: GUSTO callers' course (very long)
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Thank you Bruce: both for the superb calling on Ken's trip and for the very
informative information on the Caller's Course.

Ben Stein
Burlington Vt USA
dancers-AT-
compuserve.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:28:03 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:27:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Pearl <pearl-AT-
sw.stratus.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: GUSTO callers' course (very long)
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SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Even here in the states, when a named band performs, not only is the 
band as a whole acknowledged by the leader, the individuals are, too.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:26:53 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:30:07 -0600
From: rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton)
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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In Scottish dancing last night, the teacher said "this isn't English
dancing, you know, we are _fussy_ about how we move up"

She was referring to placing of the feet, but it got me thinking.  I prefer
to take inside hands with my partner as I move up or down, and if I'm
calling (which I seldom do, being mostly in the band), that's what I tell
people to do.  But they soon slip out of the habit, and the other callers
don't remind them to do it.

There is also the issue of timing, which we were also working on last
night.  It's much more satisfying to move up or down in time to the music,
but lots of people don't.

Are we fussy about how we move up?  Do other callers leave it to the
individual, or do they try to insist on/encourage the taking of hands and
being in time?

Emma

-
Emma Rushton,
Department of Biology,
University of Utah,
257 South, 1400 East
Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840

(801) 585-1926 (office)
(801) 585-9425 (lab)
(801) 581-4668 (fax)

rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu


================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:05:34 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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I thought Pat Shaw eliminated the Right in right years ago!

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:15:55 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Emma wrote:

    I prefer to take inside hands with my partner as I move up or down, and
    if I'm calling (which I seldom do, being mostly in the band), that's
    what I tell people to do.  But they soon slip out of the habit, and the
    other callers don't remind them to do it.

As a dancer, if I hear "move up" I have a moment of uncertainty about
whether to take hands or not.  In _my_ head, the unambiguous name for
taking hands and moving up is "lead up."  (However, you can lead up 
or out alone, so it's either ambiguous or inconsistent anyway.)


    There is also the issue of timing, which we were also working on last
    night.  It's much more satisfying to move up or down in time to the
    music, but lots of people don't.

What seems to be really, really hard is getting people to initiate
sequences on something other than beat 1 of the phrase or subphrase. Jody
McGeen, in San Jose, will tell people when to move - eg, in Fandango the
ones cast off and the twos wait two measures and then lead up - but  I
haven't noticed most other callers here making much of an issue of it. 
Jody is probably the Bay Area caller who comes closest to running a  class,
occasionally stopping a dance in progress to improve style and timing,
which is probably why her dance generally has (a) the best dancing and (b)
among the fewest dancers. 

My  particular crotchet is the lead up in "Dressed Ship."  The ones have an
eight-count cast; the twos have a one-place lead, which it's really hard to
make take eight counts.  I always tell people that the twos need to wait
for four counts and then travel, and even do a (to the tune) "Cast two
three four Lead two three four", and it rarely gets through to more than a
few of the dancers.  They start whenever they remember, and finish whenever
they get there, so, first, _they_ don't get the satisfaction of clicking
into place at the same time as the ones and have to wait around to do the
next thing, and I don't get satisfaction of seeing the whole room crisply
executing a nice figure with contrasting curved and straight movements all
at the same time.

I happened to be present when John Hertz, the fellow from whom I learned
that dance, was teaching it to a 50 people at a science fiction convention.
Explicating the importance of timing the figures, he said "and when it's
all together, it's like the working of a well-oiled clock."  From somewhere
among the dancers came the words "Cuckoo, cuckoo."   We all cracked up.

    Are we fussy about how we move up?  Do other callers leave it to the
    individual, or do they try to insist on/encourage the taking of hands
    and being in time?

I'm personally fussy about it, but that sometimes doesn't come through in
my calling.  I think timing - outside the confines of a performance
group or workshop where people have the goal of improving their dancing and 
doing it right, rather than just the goal of doing it and getting on to the
next dance - is a battle we'll always be fighting.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:44:57 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:43:59 -0700
From: Marjorie McLaughlin <marjoriem-AT-
home.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
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Emma,

I primarily teach and dance Scottish Country dancing, but I enjoy
English dancing whenever the opportunity presents itself. I regret that
your teacher found it necessary to suggest that SCD is "fussy" and ECD
isn't. Not an attitude I find attractive, even if it is common.

When I am teaching stepping up and down in SCD I often allude to the,
IMHO, friendlier method done in ECD, i.e., taking nearer hands. Both
ways can (and should) be done in time to the music but the rigidity of
the Scottish form leaves me cold.  Without the need to move up by taking
hands with partners, SCDancers are often seen jumping up one place at
the last second, and a bar and a half after their more attentive
partner. 

Ever on the lookout for ways to take the "rules" out of dancing ... and
make it intuitive.

Marjorie McLaughlin
San Diego, CA


Emma Rushton wrote:
> 
> In Scottish dancing last night, the teacher said "this isn't English
> dancing, you know, we are _fussy_ about how we move up"
> 
> She was referring to placing of the feet, but it got me thinking.  I prefer
> to take inside hands with my partner as I move up or down, and if I'm
> calling (which I seldom do, being mostly in the band), that's what I tell
> people to do.  But they soon slip out of the habit, and the other callers
> don't remind them to do it.
> 
> There is also the issue of timing, which we were also working on last
> night.  It's much more satisfying to move up or down in time to the music,
> but lots of people don't.
> 
> Are we fussy about how we move up?  Do other callers leave it to the
> individual, or do they try to insist on/encourage the taking of hands and
> being in time?
> 
> Emma
> 
> -
> Emma Rushton,
> Department of Biology,
> University of Utah,
> 257 South, 1400 East
> Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0840
> 
> (801) 585-1926 (office)
> (801) 585-9425 (lab)
> (801) 581-4668 (fax)
> 
> rushton-AT-
biology.utah.edu
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:33:48 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:32:52 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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Message text written by Alan Winston:
>My  particular crotchet is the lead up in "Dressed Ship."  The ones have
an
eight-count cast; the twos have a one-place lead, which it's really hard to
make take eight counts.  I always tell people that the twos need to wait
for four counts and then travel, and even do a (to the tune) "Cast two
three four Lead two three four", and it rarely gets through to more than a
few of the dancers.  <

One might suggest in cases like this that the "leading" couple take the
first part of the phrase to "meet", then "lead up."  A very graceful,
partner-centric(?) movement.  It's intuitive in that it gives the "casting"
couple time to vacate, and it accomodates the dancers' natural tendency to
move at the start of a strong phrase.   Many of our best dancers do this
meet and lead bit "naturally." 

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, and Caller who also enjoys " ...seeing the whole room
crisply executing a nice figure with contrasting curved and straight
movements all at the same time."
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:44:37 PST
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:47:49 +0600
From: Christine Robb <cedar-AT-
mail.interlog.com>
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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Emma Rushton wrote:
> Are we fussy about how we move up?  Do other callers leave it to the
> individual, or do they try to insist on/encourage the taking of hands and
> being in time?
 
This is an interesting discussion to me.  My performance group has 
recently settled on always leading up, even when it creates an awkward 
transition (such as in Tars of the Victory).  Leading up does help to 
keep partners together, but a side effect is that it takes attention 
away from the 1's, which may or may not be an issue.


On a different note, it was suggested to me that I should keep a list 
of ECD events that happen close to Toronto.  I have added a page to 
my web site, and if anyone would like their events added, please send
me a note.


Christine

cedar-AT-
interlog.com
For information on English Country and vintage dance in Toronto:
http://www.interlog.com/~cedar
================================================================================
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:59:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Emma, 

> In Scottish dancing last night, the teacher said "this isn't
> English dancing, you know, we are _fussy_ about how we move up"
> She was referring to placing of the feet, but it got me thinking. 
> I prefer to take inside hands with my partner as I move up or 
> down...

When I began dancing some years ago, the hand-in-hand lead for the
inactive couple hadn't appeared. We were instructed to LOOK at our
partners as we moved up. Of course, not everyone did, and I suppose
the use of hands evolved as a way of connection.
    I don't particularly like the lead, because it makes too much of
something that is nothing more than getting out of the way.
(Certainly there are dances where that movement is a complementary
part of the figure, but that is not usually the case.) 
    Somehow I find it less annoying if my partner just moves up on
his own than if he sticks out a paw but otherwise ignores me. 

> There is also the issue of timing...

I sometimes wonder if the other dancers around me are hearing the
music. It usually tells you when to move. 
 
> Are we fussy about how we move up?  Do other callers leave it to
> the individual, or do they try to insist on/encourage the taking of
> hands and being in time?

Boston Centre callers are quite precise about this. It is a great joy
to me to dance in a center where style is not ignored. 
    Some nights things are kind of messy, but every so often you can
sit out at the bottom of the hall and watch the lines sweep across
the set with a great deal of precision, and there's a real magic to
the dance. Probably comes of so many of us dancing together for so
long.

Lyrl Ahern




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Gene Murrow wrote:

> Message text written by Alan Winston:
> >My  particular crotchet is the lead up in "Dressed Ship."  The ones have
> an
> eight-count cast; the twos have a one-place lead, which it's really hard to
> make take eight counts.  I always tell people that the twos need to wait
> for four counts and then travel, and even do a (to the tune) "Cast two
> three four Lead two three four", and it rarely gets through to more than a
> few of the dancers.  <
>
> One might suggest in cases like this that the "leading" couple take the
> first part of the phrase to "meet", then "lead up."  A very graceful,
> partner-centric(?) movement.  It's intuitive in that it gives the "casting"
> couple time to vacate, and it accomodates the dancers' natural tendency to
> move at the start of a strong phrase.   Many of our best dancers do this
> meet and lead bit "naturally."
>

Gene, I am glad to read you mention the "meeting bit" before you lead up. I
feel it is very useful and enjoyable in several dances, e.g. Jovial Beggars,
Siege of Limerick, and many others. Moreover it gives shape to our country
dances, a feature that is often forgotten.


Philippe Callens


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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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>Lyrl Ahern wrote:
>
>When I began dancing some years ago, the hand-in-hand lead for the
>inactive couple hadn't appeared. We were instructed to LOOK at our
>partners as we moved up. Of course, not everyone did, and I suppose
>the use of hands evolved as a way of connection.
> <snip>
>
>> There is also the issue of timing... (from Emma)
>
>I sometimes wonder if the other dancers around me are hearing the
>music. It usually tells you when to move. 
> 
>> Are we fussy about how we move up?  Do other callers leave it to
>> the individual, or do they try to insist on/encourage the taking of
>> hands and being in time?          (from Emma)
>
>Boston Centre callers are quite precise about this. It is a great joy
>to me to dance in a center where style is not ignored. 
>    Some nights things are kind of messy, but every so often you can
>sit out at the bottom of the hall and watch the lines sweep across
>the set with a great deal of precision, and there's a real magic to
>the dance. Probably comes of so many of us dancing together for so
>long.
>
    Having danced with Reel Nutmeg for several years and now dancing with a
Scandinavian performing group I can say that the movement of lines as a unit
can be evasive even after much practice. Boston Centre probably has one of the
largest groups of long time dancers of any center in the country and they really
do dance together. There are many Boston dancers I have known since my first
time at Pinewoods and my first PMM Ale thirty years ago. They also have a lot
of eye contact, which is not very prevalent in many other places I've danced.
I probably would be hard pressed to randomly pick any four dancers in the Northwest
who have as many years of ECD between them as I have by myself. The thing I
have been most conscious of is the lack of any tradition and continuity here.

    I too am glad we learned to dance from teachers who emphasized eye contact
and connections to the other dancers. I get annoyed with people who dance without
connection, ignoring those around them.
    A favorite moment of mine in the dance is the heys in Prince William. In
Reel Nutmeg's choreography the twos would hold back on the second hey so that
they had a stately lead from the bottom of the set to the top as the ones started
the cross and cast figure. The twos would arrive at the top just in time to
do their cross and cast. We used the lead up a lot in performance. I agree about
moving in to make the connection with your partner before moving up.
    As for Lyrl's comment about hearing the music, my experience in many places
I have danced is that people are not taught the importance of the connection
between the music and the dance. Why should they hear it if they aren't taught
to hear it. Callers do not teach style.  They teach people to get from one place
to another but they don't teach them how to get there. It is teaching DANCES
versus teaching DANCING.

Lyrl's brother Andy in Portland
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Lyrl Ahern wrote:
> 
> Emma,
> 
> > In Scottish dancing last night, the teacher said "this isn't
> > English dancing, you know, we are _fussy_ about how we move up"
> > She was referring to placing of the feet, but it got me thinking.
> > I prefer to take inside hands with my partner as I move up or
> > down...
> 
> When I began dancing some years ago, the hand-in-hand lead for the
> inactive couple hadn't appeared. We were instructed to LOOK at our
> partners as we moved up. Of course, not everyone did, and I suppose
> the use of hands evolved as a way of connection.
>     I don't particularly like the lead, because it makes too much of
> something that is nothing more than getting out of the way.

Well, my pet hate is in Shrewsbury Lasses where, after the skip round,
people do a two hand turn half way and then *let*go* to lead their
partner to the bottom.  Surely people didn't teach you to abandon
your partner in order to lead them to the bottom?  There again
perhaps they did.

(Last night we did Well Hall - cast and cross with your partner -
and someone asked why some people crossed and some (including me)
were doing two hand turns half way;  my answer was that some
people were friendlier than others.  Is there a correct answer?)

Hugh Stewart
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Emma, 

You seem to have roused us from a deep sleep...

Many good points have been brought out in this discussion -- in
particular, I appreciate the points made by Gene Murrow and Philippe
Callens about the 2's meeting before leading up, and giving shape to the
dance.  I like to dance this way, and really appreciate a partner who also
does, or who responds to me and picks it up -- it's really nice to induce
it that way.  

I teach a "dance workshop" every other Tuesday, and I generally pick a
dance in which I also focus a bit on style.  Timing is frequently a
subject that is brought up, but I try to do it lightly enough so that
folks who are still struggling with more fundamental aspects of the dance
don't feel that they are completely out of it.  Things usually improve
somewhat after I make some suggestions, but rarely does it approach
perfection.  

I may also make comments or calls on the timing during a dance when I feel
that they have the basic figure but not the timing.  Since taking Bruce
Hamilton's calling workshop, I have been making a real effort not to count
to convey the timing, so I have to resort to "diddling" or demonstrating
or calling to the music to get that across.  

I generally ask dancers to take hands on a lead up unless there is a good
reason not to, such as someone else being in between, or needing to be in
between very soon.

I recall quite well the Scottish teaching for moving up -- for a man on
the man's side, it was four side steps: left, right in front of left,
left, together... to the music, of course.  I'm not that particular in
teaching ECD, but I am a bit more particular in what I do than what I
teach.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor


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I dance both English and Scottish Country Dancing and while I agree that,
at times, the Scots are just altogether to "fussy" they do have some good
points. In particular I like the distinction made between "stepping up" and
"dancing up". The "step up" is very much as described in Erics letter and
is used when the couple above are casting down. The "dancing up" is used in
particular cases, such as in Trip to Bavaria, where the couple above are
crossing down to opposite sides (not always-i.e. The Sailor). 

In either case the taking of hands depends on the particular situation. In
English Country dancing (and occassional in Scottish) the taking of hands
becomes rather important if it is necessary for both couples to have hands
in the middle for the figure that follows. I do like Priscilla Burrages
comment that, when the first couple dances down the middle and back to
second place the second couple should step up on bars three and four of the
phrase. This allows the lead couple to get by before the couple below steps
up but assures that the space for them to return to will be visible as they
turn about to dance up-none of this "wonder where we go to" stuff!
Certainly it is important that the couple dances together and taking of
hands, timing and eye contact all help assure that. 

Ben Stein
Burlington, Vt. USA
dancers-AT-
compuserve.com
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Hmmm...  There are MANY interesting viewpoints here, and I think all
tie together.  Let me see if I can find the threads.

One thing that struck me when I began teaching both English and
Scottish dancing was that they both want the best of freedom and
fussiness, but they approach it from opposite directions.  ECD
teachers pass up many chances to be explicit about, say, covering or
the timing of what the inactives do, because of the social effect of
making it important: it turns off some dancers, and those who make it
important themselves tend to become snobs.  SCD teachers pass up many
chances to convey the freedom inherent in a social dance form because
that's time we can't spend on body mechanics and because if you
*start* a dancer with freedom it is then extra hard to get precision.
Both are right, in my opinion.  And a compromise isn't what we're
after: we really do want the BEST of both.

I agree with Lyrl that the Boston center ECDancers come near that
ideal on occasion, and it is indeed a pleasure.  The movement is
effortless (literally ballistic, if the tempo permits), but you don't
notice that the timing is razor-sharp unless you watch for it.  And
people are spending just a percent or two of their concentration on
that (because it's habit, not because it's unimportant -- it IS
important).  Most of their concentration is on what's happening around
them.

I'd say that in ECD the most common intended practice is to dance up
(some way or another) on the last two bars of a phrase, unless there's
a reason to do otherwise.  But I think that the giving of hands -- to
partner or neighbor -- is below the level at which we specify things.
One of my notions of dancing at a high level is that people tune into
this, and make these choices afresh every time: "given the way these
1s are making their cast, the general shape of this figure in this
dance, the way the band is playing it this time around, where my
weight is at this moment and where my partner's attention is, shall I
suggest that we join hands?  If we do, what shape shall we make our
path?"

I prefer to dance with people who think this way.  A dancer who
"sticks out a paw" because that's what he was taught, or who moves up
because her counter got to 3, is correct in a choreographic sense, and
will look right to a casual observer (or to a caller who is attending
only to the geography and timing), but is missing the point, and isn't
dancing with us.

That's why I asked Eric not to count.  You get a sense from his
posting that it makes his job harder, and it does.  But when he has to
"resort to 'diddling' or demonstrating or calling to the music," he
teaches his dancers, subconsciously, that the reason behind each of
the things we do is always the musical phrase.  If someone is already
counting, then they typically translate whatever they see and hear
into numbers, and the message is lost.  But if there are no numbers in
their heads, then Eric's diddling, demonstrating and musical calling
can establish that connection.

The connection to other people is also subtle.  In Boston and
Philadelphia and San Jose you can feel that these people dance
together.  It's more than just recognizing the faces, more than
knowing in advance how they move, more than the fact that their kids
go to school together.  I think it's the bond of shared work.  "Over
the years our teacher has been trying to get our straight heys to
fall, efforlessly and seamlessly but exactly, into a line at the
precise end of the half phrase.  I can see in your eye that you think
it might happen this time and you're hoping I'll do my part.  Well, I
will -- how's this!"  And it's a tiny little shared victory.

You can't get the satisfaction without the shared work, but the
*communication* is always available.  It's especially easy for aspects
that aren't prescribed, like whether to give hands when moving up.
This communication is one of the things I try to teach in my "Through
the Ceiling" class.  On the first round of a dance, the first tenth of
a second or so of the moving up will be a whole bunch of individual
decisions about whether to give hands.  The next time through the
dance, most couples will have decided, and they'll be looking to see
what the other couples are doing.  The third time through, there will
be a clear majority, and those in the minority will be deciding
whether to join it or not.  (A few will be making this decision afresh
on each round, but they'll be aware of the majority, and that will
play a part in their decision.)

In this environment, a dancer who let go of his/her partner after a
half turn, only to rejoin for the next move, would see a look that
said "?", and would likely try something different the next time.
That sort of thing gives me more pleasure than a partner who gets it
"right" the first time because he/she wants to be right.  One of my
favorite dance moments was when Brad Foster and I were partners in a
morris dance at a camp.  When the chorus came we found ourselves
dancing different versions.  We kept dancing, laughing out loud at
ourselves, how we'd grown apart in the last couple of years, and what
this must look like to the audience.  On the next round we both
switched to the other's version!  I don't remember how this played out
(I hope that at some point we looked at the rest of the set :).  What
I remember most is how much fun it was to dance with this flexible and
unselfish dancer.

Boy!  I really don't have time for this, but the congruence of the
points in the various posts was too good to pass up.  Thanks all, for
taking the trouble to let us hear what you think is important.

Bruce Hamilton			Hewlett-Packard Laboratories     MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
hpl.hp.com
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From: Arthur Munisteri <Munisteri-AT-
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Gene Murrow's comment about the second place couple meeting 
before moving up while the top couple is casting, especially when 
there's a lot of time, reminds me of a similar move that I've never 
heard anyone mention, but that I have long thought makes sense. 
What about when the top couple crosses and goes below, with the 
second-place couple moving up? It's fairly common to see the 
second-place couple meeting before moving up, but it strikes me 
that it would present an impressive visual picture if the second-
place couple makes a point of moving in precisely in time with the 
first-place couple. I don't think I've ever seen this (not many people 
do it, and I'm not a caller so I'm not on the stage) but it ought to 
look as though both lines are collapsing into one, then partially  
separating again. Given how much effort has gone into precision 
marching and chorus-line choreography, there ought to be a whole 
vocabulary of moves, with descriptions of the kinds of effects 
produced by each pattern and its variations. Does anyone know if 
there's any organization of this kind of information? Did Busby 
Berkeley ever write a how-to book? For that matter, what do high 
school marching band instructors do for technique?

On a more general point:
On 28 May 99, Eric wrote:

 > I teach a "dance workshop" every other Tuesday, and I generally pick a
> dance in which I also focus a bit on style.  Timing is frequently a
> subject that is brought up, but I try to do it lightly enough so that
> folks who are still struggling with more fundamental aspects of the dance
> don't feel that they are completely out of it.

I know what Eric means, but I'm sure that we have a consensus on 
this list that, for really enjoyable dancing, there is NO "more 
fundamental aspect of the dance" than timing. When we dance 
farther apart than ballroom position, of course, then being in the 
wrong place is more disruptive than being out of rhythm on our way 
there, but still ........dancing IS rhythm. Now that I'm thinking about 
this, it seems to me that rhythm is the most important thing about 
any dance, next is moving comfortably, then it's getting from here 
to there to there to.... while moving comfortably in rhythm, then it's 
doing all that while communicating as interestingly as possible with 
as many of your fellow dancers as possible. But because a clumsy 
person with poor rhythm can get through a country dance without 
stomping on anyone's feet, I think that country dancing tends to 
attract (and, %*$#, retain) precisely that type of person. As the 
insurance companies say, "adverse selection". So does anyone 
have any ideas on how to convince the rhythmically challenged to 
spend a little time trying to improve? I think that it really wouldn't 
take much time for even the worst, but it would take concentration 
and a recognition that it was worth doing. Just doing a step-hop in 
place to a very strong beat for five minutes at a time regularly would 
do wonders, I'm sure. Does anyone have any experience? If not 
what works, then at least what doesn't?

Cheers, Art
CDNY, NYC
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What a great thread you've started, Emma; I can't resist just a brief 
addition.

The "shape" of our dancing, when well-defined, does make the dances look 
spectacular to an onlooker, but more important, I think (since we're for the 
most part not performing), is the fact that when we're aware of line and 
curve and symmetry, the dances feel wonderful to *us* as we dance.  This is 
probably in part because of the beauty of the shapes themselves, and in part 
because the symmetries can only be achieved if we're feeling connected with 
partner and set, which creates a magic of its own.

If significant numbers feel the goal is to "get through" the figures and on 
to the next dance and that how you get there doesn't matter, perhaps we who 
teach the dances have to some extent failed the dancers by not managing to 
convey the joy of _beautiful_ dancing.  

Part of the joy, too, comes simply from moving to the music, and standing and 
listening to a teacher certainly reduces "movement time", so yes, a balance 
has to be found.  Eric mentioned the possibility of choosing 1 dance in an 
evening with which to focus on style.  Perhaps within a series, one specific 
style point or "shape" could be emphasized for a given evening - circles, for 
example - without over-flogging (slogging?).

If what we teach produces an effect that feels good to the dancers themselves 
(& not just the sense of having reluctantly satisfied a picky teacher), 
perhaps a discreet dose of style would be more warmly welcomed.

Carol Martinez
NY
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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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Bruce Hamilton wrote:
> I agree with Lyrl that the Boston center ECDancers come near that
> ideal on occasion, and it is indeed a pleasure.  The movement is
> effortless (literally ballistic, if the tempo permits) ...

        Is this an oblique comment on some obscure, less innately
graceful Boston dancer?  My dictionary says that ballistic relates to
the flight characteristics of projectiles in free-fall trajectories.  I
know some people whose ECDancing does indeed resemble the trajectory of
a
free-falling projectile, but that would seem to be a different
discussion thread.  :)    (Perhaps you meant "balletic"?)
        On a more serious note, I wonder if the question of counting
depends in part on the capabilities of the dancer?  Those with a good
innate sense of rhythm don't need to count.  At the other end of the
spectrum appear the rhythmically challenged that Art Munisteri referred
to.  Those who don't seem to grasp that, when moving, you take one step
per beat, even after it is explained to them.  While in a few cases one
can suspect that a failure of effort is involved (or even downright
refusal), I tend to feel it is more likely that the rhythm section of
their brains never developed at whatever developmental stage that
occurs.  They're like the tone-deaf who decide at age 40, or 50, that
they FINALLY want to learn to sing.  It's a real struggle.  
        I may merely be reiterating Art's question here, but how do we
help these people?  Occasionally teachers will come out to the floor and
lead people in dancing around the floor while clapping to each beat of
music.  Seems more frequent to waltz tempi, but could be done to
anything.  Is there anything else?  Does it work to suggest to this
subclass of dancers that they try to count?  We can dance with and
encourage them, but by itself that (in some cases, at least) seems to
take a very long time.  Avoiding them and hoping they'll give up and not
come back doesn't seem the response of a very generous heart, and just
gritting teeth and living with the situation isn't very satisfying.  I
can recall a few situations in which individual dancers have tried
taking other individuals in hand for a lesson in movement during the
waltz, but that's not always the easiest thing to do.
        I realize that Bruce's advice to Eric addressed the situation of
a teacher with a group of dancers whose aptitude spans the spectrum, and
subtly teaching them to internalize the beat may well be the best
approach to the biggest payoff, even if it takes a little more time.
        On a slightly different side to this issue, I find it helpful,
when someone is teaching a less familiar dance, if they will mention the
number of measures for an unusual movement.  "That's a lo-ong cast" is
not as helpful in getting to feel the pattern as a more specific
announcement of the number of measures or beats.  Even though the latter
runs the risk that some people will actually start counting (there may
be trade-offs here) I find it helpful information.

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:17:04 PST
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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:16:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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Michael J. O'Connor writes:
> 
>         On a more serious note, I wonder if the question of counting
> depends in part on the capabilities of the dancer?  Those with a good
> innate sense of rhythm don't need to count.  At the other end of the
> spectrum appear the rhythmically challenged that Art Munisteri referred
> to.  Those who don't seem to grasp that, when moving, you take one step
> per beat, even after it is explained to them.  While in a few cases one
> can suspect that a failure of effort is involved (or even downright
> refusal), I tend to feel it is more likely that the rhythm section of
> their brains never developed at whatever developmental stage that
> occurs.  They're like the tone-deaf who decide at age 40, or 50, that
> they FINALLY want to learn to sing.  It's a real struggle.  
>         I may merely be reiterating Art's question here, but how do we
> help these people?  Occasionally teachers will come out to the floor and
> lead people in dancing around the floor while clapping to each beat of
> music.  Seems more frequent to waltz tempi, but could be done to
> anything.  Is there anything else?  Does it work to suggest to this
> subclass of dancers that they try to count?  We can dance with and
> encourage them, but by itself that (in some cases, at least) seems to
> take a very long time.  Avoiding them and hoping they'll give up and not
> come back doesn't seem the response of a very generous heart, and just
> gritting teeth and living with the situation isn't very satisfying.  I
> can recall a few situations in which individual dancers have tried
> taking other individuals in hand for a lesson in movement during the
> waltz, but that's not always the easiest thing to do.

   One thing to keep in mind is that different people learn in different
ways.  No one method is going to be perfect for everyone.  When I first
started dancing I was unable to hear the phrasing in the music.  I knew
it was there because people told me it was, but like a colorblind person
who is willing to accept that there is a difference in two seemingly
identical shades of gray, I couldn't hear the differences in the music.
This was primarily contra dancing and I figured out on my own that the
phrases were each 16 beats long and that most figures were either 16 or
8 beats long.  I then discovered that every 64 beats the dance repeated.
So I counted, to myself, and was able to dance OK.  After a while (maybe
as long as a year) I found I wasn't having to count very much anymore
and could now hear the phrases of the music.  These days I don't have to
count at all, but when teaching new dancers I tell them to listen and dance
to the music, but I also mention the timing and let them know that it is
OK to count if they need to at first.

Jonathan

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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
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Archive-Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:06:05 PST
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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:05:20 -0400
From: Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" <ECD-AT-
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Message text written by Jonathan Sivier

>One thing to keep in mind is that different people learn in different
ways.  No one method is going to be perfect for everyone.  When I first
started dancing I was unable to hear the phrasing in the music... So I
counted, to myself, and was able to dance OK... After a while (maybe as
long as a year) I found I wasn't having to count very much anymore and
could now hear the phrases of the music.  These days I don't have to count
at all...>

Message text written by Mike O'Connor

>"That's a lo-ong cast" is not as helpful in getting to feel the pattern as
a more specific announcement of the number of measures or beats.  Even
though the latter runs the risk that some people will actually start
counting (there may be trade-offs here) I find it helpful information.<

A few years of teaching or a quick review of the academic literature on how
people learn reveals the truth of Jonathan's first statement and Mike's
experience.  What is clear, helpful, and conducive to good habits for one
person provokes confusion, frustration and bad habits in another.  A
valuable technique for good teaching is to offer several verbal
descriptions and mental models for the same desired skill, behavior or
idea, allowing different students to latch on to the one that (finally)
speaks to them.  (I'm not talking about different options, but different
ways of describing the desired outcome).

And so I disagree with those who would eliminate counting from the teaching
of ECD (this goes way back... May Gadd herself would rail against
counting.)  It strikes me as odd that in practically every other dance
genre, from ballroom to Broadway to ballet, counting is often the most
common way movement is taught and explained.  The most beautiful, delicate,
fluid choreography in a Tchaikovsky ballet is taught by counting, among
other methods, as are the most primal group movements in a Robbins or Fosse
routine.  ("OK girls, kick-two-three-turn-and turn-reach-two three....").  

Let's not remove a valuable tool from our kit.  Yes, it can do harm, but so
can "the cast takes as long as deedle-dum-dum-dum deedle-dum-da-dum" to
someone whose brain isn't wired to connect regular oscillations of his ear
drum to rhythmic motion of his body (not as uncommon as one might think--
ask anyone who's taught music to adults).

Gene Murrow
EC Dancer, Musician, and Caller who believes ECD is as easy as
one-two-three


. 
================================================================================
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From: "Michael L. Siemon" <mls-AT-
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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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At 11:05 PM -0400 5/28/99, Gene Murrow wrote:

>Gene Murrow
>EC Dancer, Musician, and Caller who believes ECD is as easy as
>one-two-three

Shouldn't that be: one-two-three for the many? :-)
================================================================================
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:06:03 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
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References: <199905281601.AA199187264-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com> <374F0099.44FD-AT-
erols.com>

At 1:46 PM -0700 5/28/99, Michael J. O'Connor wrote:
>Those with a good
>innate sense of rhythm don't need to count.  At the other end of the
>spectrum appear the rhythmically challenged that Art Munisteri referred
>to.

Oh I don't know.... I think of myself as having a pretty good sense 
of rhythm (oh oh....that's MY opinion) and yet I do find that I count 
sometimes, especially if the dance as explained doesn't seem to fit 
well with the music as played.....or if the dance is unfamiliar.

I found myself doing this in a session at NEFFA this year when the 
dance was mis-taught, and then mis-called (through several variations 
yet!) and there was a strange controversy apparently going on between 
the musicians! Since I didn't know the dance and I didn't have the 
back up of strong music to tell me clear beats and phrases, I started 
counting to myself. Really just trying to get a grip on what was 
wrong - me? the dance? the music?  Turned out the dance started out 
missing 8 beats in one part and got down to 4.  At points the music 
seemed to be missing beats too.....

It was interesting!

But anyway yes - sometimes counting is a good thing!

Actually I think what Michael means is that some dancers are able to 
rely on the beats and phrases of the music and their knowledge of the 
normal phrasing of figures to mesh the movements to the music - 
without a lot of deliberate thought.

I do agree that counting is a valuable tool for teaching body 
movement. It's probably easier for beginning dancers to associate 
movement with count "Circle 2,3,4,5,6,7 and BACK 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 
etc... than to say "circle for 8 beats of music and then another 8 
back"(notice that the latter does not really indicate that it takes a 
certain amount of TIME to do the figure) or to refer to the phrasing 
like A1 or A2.  Counting does help to reinforce the idea that the 
underlying beat of the music is what helps move you in the dance.

Mary Beth <-- years of bean counting pays off

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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:38:36 -0400
From: Michael S Franch <franch-AT-
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Subject: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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A new thing (to me) has appeared in the last year or two, in which the 2s
move up by turning, e.g., the man would turn over his left shoulder to
move to the 1's position.  Is this appearing elsewhere?

Mike Franch
Baltimore

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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:24:54 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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At 12:38 AM -0400 5/29/99, Michael S Franch wrote:
>A new thing (to me) has appeared in the last year or two, in which the 2s
>move up by turning, e.g., the man would turn over his left shoulder to
>move to the 1's position.  Is this appearing elsewhere?

There's one dance I know of in which that is a specified movement - Up With
Aily.  Perhaps some of the modern choreographers have been using that
feature in new-made dances?

Also, in Boston we have adopted the concept of casting into the heys in
Hambleton's.  Most of us now cast into the hey when we're 2s, i.e. we move
up and turn out to begin the hey with the lady.  But more and more the 3s
are also organizing themselves to turn down and out for the hey with the
man.  I'd say about 40% of the 3s are getting that together at this point.

It's been a long time coming for us there.  For probably 15 years we had
the assymetry of 2s casting while 3s just danced into the hey.

A lot of this grew out of the cloverleaf turn single concept which Pat Shaw
brought to us so long ago in 1974.

As for counting:

An interesting situation which functioned for 25 years in Boston happened
in Trip to Kilburn, where the circles begin in the middle of the phrase.
It was the one situation where Helene actually counted, being that I
believe she did not think counting was the way to go.

It had an interesting result.

To begin with - one could look about the room and see an intense
concentration during the whole A music and people mouthing the 1-2-3-FOUR
to themselves.  Of course, this distracted them from dancing towards the
people they were about to circle with!  Very sad.

But it had another side effect.  People felt rushed by the pressure to get
into the circle in the middle of the phrase (on the count of four), and
thus scurried through the circle arriving at the end of it too early.  The
effect of this was that the lead down which followed occurred too soon and
so people were casting up by the end of the A music and had to wait to
begin the next curcle.

All in all it was not a satisfactory effect, and I began to lead the dance
in a different way, emphasising the balance of the cast at the beginning of
each phrase and the need to open the circles out wide and take all the
allotted time.

The counting has ceased.

The music still hurries the dancers, it's a very compelling tune, and they
still arrive at the cast too early <sigh>.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
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I agree with Gene about counting as a useful tool.  Although I have come 
relatively recently to ECD, I was trained as a musician -- one of the great 
joys for me in this whole experience is moving to the music in such a total 
way.  I was surprised at the last go round on this topic (a year or so ago) 
that counting was dismissed almost as a crutch, but at the time I felt too 
new to comment.  However, for me the two can never be separate.  Music exists 
in time -- in a specific meter and (variable) tempo -- the musicians couldn't 
keep together if they didn't pay attention to timing.  Dance is wedded to the 
music -- particularly to its metrical framework.  So how can the music exist 
in time and dance somehow ignore it?  Not possible, say I.  

Many, but by no means all, people feel the beat naturally -- or at least 
follow it well enough  -- the band, of course, is indispensable here.  The 
question, I suppose, is how much emphasis and effort do you direct there -- 
especially in a "social" activity.  Well, it depends.  For myself, I usually 
don't have a problem.    But there are times when I'm unfamiliar with a dance 
or when I'm just getting my bearings -- when I realize I'm not quite together 
with the music -- casts aren't coming out quite right or whatever.  At those 
times, I will tune into the music and focus by counting in my head (hopefully 
not to the extent that I ignore my partners) but just to feel the meter more 
closely.  I don't do it for long -- but it usually helps (although there are 
times when nothing helps, alas).  

For me music is the carpet -- and dance sits on (and within) the carpet -- 
and when everything clicks, it's a flying carpet -- and it's magic -- and 
well worth the perseverance.

My 2 cents...
Suzanne Ford





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Archive-Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:09:10 PST
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:08:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
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Jonathan, Gene, and Mary Beth all make interesting comments about the uses
and roles of counting in interpreting, understanding, and teaching dance
movement.  

I have been practicing teaching dance movements and timing without
explicit reference to counting the beats because Bruce Hamilton convinced
me that there was much value in teaching it otherwise if that is possible,
and because it appeared that this was a direction in which I could acquire
a new and useful skill myself, since I was someone who used counting a
lot.  I used it in teaching, and I used it in dancing; I still do.
Counting for me is essentially a rhythmic thing which is practically
subconscious.  The numbers are the words that I would "doodle" with if
left to my own devices.  I think most of us learn counting rhythmically at
a very early stage, and for many of us it is not unnatural to count
rhythmically to dance music.  

Furthermore, there is a very close correspondence between the concepts in
the dance and the concepts in counting.  In this sort of dance,
especially, where a particular beat is maintained throughout (in most
cases), and where both music and dance are structured in frases or
phigures (NOT an accidental switching of the beginning letters of those
closely-related words!) having a definite number of beats, and where
certain numbers of beats occur with far more than random probability.
What we are trying to achieve, in general, is a particular correspondence
between the "beats" of the dance and the beats of the music.  Numbers, and
counting, aren't directly involved, but they are both an abstraction and
an idealization (in a sense -- not necessarily ideal for dance) of the
process of establishing a correspondence.  Counting is, after all, just
establishing a one-to-one correspondence between an arbitrary set of
discrete objects (e.g. beats in music, steps in dance, eggs in a carton,
etc.) and a specific, ordered set.  Numbers were designed to do just that.
They are a powerful tool for understanding things that have intrinsic in
them some sort of numerical structure, and the kind of dance we are
talking about definitely has that.

But the power of numbers is also their difficulty.  In a sense, they have
meaning of their own which is not part of the dance.  By associating
numbers with steps, or with beats of the music, there is the danger of
being satisfied with that correspondence, and not establishing the
correspondence which we really want to make, which is the correspondence
between the movement and the music.  Numbers and counting can be used to
help establish that correspondence by people who are aware that that is
their goal, and know how to use numbers to help themselves get there, but
they don't do it automatically.  

The argument against using counting as a primary teaching aid, as I
understand it, is that for people who have difficulty hearing the
correspondence between the movement and the music, counting can become a
substitute which, instead of helping them to make the correspondence,
becomes a substitute for it, inhibiting them, or at least diverting them,
from what they really need to learn.  It is believable that this is a
reasonably accurate description of some people.  It is not believable, for
me at least, that it accurately describes everybody.  So, in my opinion,
there may be people who can be aided by counting techniques, and there may
be people who are not, and who may even be held back by them.  

Are there people who might be similarly held back by _not_ using counting
techniques?  For whom establishing the correspondence to the count is
essential in making the connection between the dance and the music?  I
don't know; I felt for myself that it was a very useful aid, but I can't
say that I wouldn't have gotten the idea without that.  However, since I
feel that it was helpful to me, I presume it would have taken me longer
without that aid, so I would have to assume that it would have held me
back not to associate music and moves with counts at some point.

So my own thinking now goes like this:  the essence that I am trying to
teach is the association of movement with music.  How this is done by
individuals doesn't matter to me as long as they get there somehow, but I
don't want to introduce concepts which make it harder for some.  For those
who feel that they would benefit from counting I am willing to work with
them a bit on getting it right for them, but not as my main teaching
approach, and I still try to keep the focus on the music/movement
correspondence.  But I appreciate that this is a much more complex task:
each tune, and each dance, are diffferent.  We who are reasonably familiar
with the tunes and the movements of the dance have a much easier job
fitting them together than does someone who is making these moves and
hearing the music for teh first time.  Furthermore, unless they have good
memory for movement and tunes, every time might as well be the first time.

So perhaps this is about tune and movement memory more than anything else?

To end this treatise with a little anecdote from my own experience:  I
learned much of what I know about ECD from Erna-Lynne Bogue, who was a
very innovative and stimulating teacher.  Some of the things that she
tried, however, I had difficulty with, and one of them was when she would
count backwards in slipping circles -- I never knew when to end, on 1 or
0.  Counting up was no problem; I could still hear the music, and danc e
to it, but when that little uncertainty was thrown in, it would dominate,
and not only would I focus on that instead of the music, I never had the
time to figure out "let's see, she started on 8, so we're done on 1 -- or
did she start on 7? and was that on the first beat of the phrase, or did
the count start on the 2nd?"  So that is one gimmick which I have not
adopted in my own teaching...

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor





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From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
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Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
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On Sat, 29 May 1999, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

[snip]

> An interesting situation which functioned for 25 years in Boston happened
> in Trip to Kilburn, where the circles begin in the middle of the phrase.
> It was the one situation where Helene actually counted, being that I
> believe she did not think counting was the way to go.
> 
> It had an interesting result.

[snip]

> But it had another side effect.  People felt rushed by the pressure to get
> into the circle in the middle of the phrase (on the count of four), and
> thus scurried through the circle arriving at the end of it too early.  The
> effect of this was that the lead down which followed occurred too soon and
> so people were casting up by the end of the A music and had to wait to
> begin the next curcle.

Yes -- but I've had the same result from encouraging folks to speed up one
part by other means; but I consider that a much easier task to address.  
I think it's much more _fun_ to learn to take more time than to take less.
Scott Higgs, I believe it was, who really encapsulated this idea for me,
both kinesthetically and verbally, at a dance a couple of years or so ago.
He also included an element of positive tension -- the kind of tension
which is necessary to experience an artistic climax -- by encouraging us
to make our figures generally as large as space and time would permit, so
that there would always be a question in our minds, as we are moving
through the figure "will I make it to my place on time?  I've got a long
way yet to go, and the last part of the musical phrase is starting -- I'm
not going to make it... maybe I can...  YES!!!  got there, not a bit too
soon, and had a really fine trip!" and so forth.  

It is wonderful to be able to incorporate this kind of excitement and
tension into the dance, and, particularly when one's own partner is
similarly experiencing these feelings.  And when most of the set is into
it, it will tend to sweep those who are not up and along with it and be a
really grand experience for all.

I thank Scott for this little nugget, and try to share the idea when I'm
teaching.

Eric Arnold
 Ann Arbor

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From: julia s sutton <jsutton-AT-
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To all thinking about counting:

As some of you know, one of my goals in life, as musician/dancer/scholar,
is to get musicians and dancers to use the same language!  It does seem to
me it would facilitate communication.

Dancers need to know that when you say 'timing' you mean 'rhythm.'
Musicians use the word 'timing' to mean the number of minutes and seconds
a piece takes!  I strongly recommend dancers to adopt this more precise
term, so you can talk to the musicians!

I note in all this discussion that some people use 'beats' and some use
'counts.'  Again, beats is the more accurate word, understood by all
musicians I've ever known.

Yours for real communication,

Julia Sutton 





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playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Walking to music
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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Emma wrote (I get the digest, so I'm a little late):

 >It's much more satisfying to move up or down in time to the music,
 >but lots of people don't.

If I'm sitting out a dance and take a stroll to the men's room, I
can't help but walk to the beat of the music. It certainly would
never occur to me to move within the dance in any other way. I never
even realized it was an issue. Isn't that why we go to dances?

  ______      /\/\/\/\
 <______>     | | | | |  David Barnert
 <______>     | | | | |  <davbarnert-AT-
aol.com>
 <______>     | | | | |  Albany, N.Y.
 <______>     \/\/\/\/

Ventilator   Concertina
  Bellows      Bellows
(Vocation)   (Avocation)

PS:

Please resist the temptation to start a thread based on my "Trip to
the Men's Room." As many on this list may remember, "A Trip to the
Laundry" has already been done in my honor. I have already replaced
the words "moving" and "behind" from the subject line and the first
sentence, respectively.

:) DB
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:31:08 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 16:33:23 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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At 2:26 PM -0400 5/29/99, julia s sutton wrote:
>I note in all this discussion that some people use 'beats' and some use
>'counts.'  Again, beats is the more accurate word, understood by all
>musicians I've ever known.

And personally, I don't see any connection between counting i.e.
enumerating, and feeling the number of pulses(beats) in tempo.  Certainly
I've met plenty of people who can count from 1 to 8 but cannot feel any
connection between that and the musical pulse.

To me the essential thing is to dance-walk synchronously with the pulse in
the tempo it's being played at, not to count just the right number of
pulses before one is permitted to begin the next movement, or end the
current one.

The object of the game is to cast off, circle and lead down the middle just
in time to cast again at the beginning of the next phrase, not to cast off
for 4 pulses, circle for 8 and lead down for 4!  If we present Kilburn by
musical sections those who can perceive the pulse will aim for the cast at
the beginning of each phrase.  If we present it in bits - first you do
this, then you do that, then you do that, then you do that - people won't
have a clue about how to make the movements fit the music.  Kilburn
especially lends itself to the "break it up into musical phrases and learn
and dance each one, then put it together" method, to me.

So, to me, the real question is: how can we as leaders bring those who
can't feel the pulse (and dance-walk to it) to the point where they can?


                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:24:18 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 18:24:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: RLHAYDEN-AT-
amherst.edu
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: rapturous hush
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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amherst.edu>
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Friends,

As I've been unsuccessful at goading others into introducing this thread,
I'm forced to own it.  :)

Has anyone else noticed an increasing amount of chatter on the dance floor,
both while the caller is teaching, so that those who need to cannot hear
the directions, and during the dancing, so that the rapturous connection
between dancers and musicians is spoiled?  I keep hoping to hear a
respectful hush, so that teaching is fast and efficient and dancing is
musical and sublime.

Robin Hayden
getting crotchety in my old age
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:19:32 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 17:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing <winston-AT-
SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Monthly archives available
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
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SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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ECDers --

In response to a veritable hail of requests -- well, four -- I've made 
monthly list archives available on the web in addition to the searchable
complete archive.

Either go to the ECD home page - 

www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.htmlx

and follow the links from there, or go directly to 

http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/ecd_archive/

to see a directory of the monthly archives.  Click on one to download the
entire month.  The names are ECD.yyyy-mm, so November 1996 is ECD.1996-11

Cautions: Some of these files are large.  The archives include all the 
internet mail headers, which you don't see when looking at the searchable
archive, because I was able to tweak the search program to discard them.
The searchable archive doesn't include messages sent to the list in error,
or apologies for doing so, unless they sparked relevant on-list conversations;
the monthly archives do.  The first couple of monthly archives have copies
of the ever-cumulative digest messages with which we were plagued at the 
start.  Also, the monthly archives start from when I turned on archiving in
the mailing list processor (which was quite soon after the list started); 
the searchable archives start from the beginning.

Techno-drivel:

Plans: Some time in the future I'll implement a an archive-based
full-text search, which would be a real pain to do on the searchable
archive.  (To get remotely acceptable performance, we'd have to save
result sets in temporary files, which the tool I'm using now, hypermail,
doesn't support, so there'd be a lot of coding.)  It's possible that
various search engines will pick these up now.

Implementation: These are the same archives that used to be available 
from the playford system by FTP until SLAC decided that anonymous FTP
access was a security hazard and cut it off at the firewall.    They
still reside on playford, but the playford disk is MSCP-served to
WWW-SSRL, a member of the same  VMScluster.  Clusters are good.


Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.

-- Alan


===============================================================================
 Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT-
SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 06:59:14 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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I'm glad Emily brought up Kilburn. I'd say that the moment the circles 
connect & begin to move is another one of those MMinED. On the other hand, 
the times that  that has occurred at the correct time I can count on one 
hand. (Beat on one hand?) I quite understand the tension that Scott—through 
Eric—describes. Whenever I dance Kilburn — too seldom, alas — I instinctively 
feel the anxiety that everyone won't make it. I'm vaguely conscious of giving 
a subliminal little tug to collect the four at exactly the right moment. I do 
believe it is one of the most delicious events when it happens, but one of 
the most difficult to pull off. This is an example of the really wide gulf 
between doing it "sort of"  & doing it right. I've given alot of thought to 
why teachers rarely mention this. As a dancer, I'm put in the awkward 
position of *insisting* (with my body) that something happen. When the 
teacher hasn't mentioned it, some less experienced dancers must think well, 
why is she (me?) making such a big deal of this? Judy whose timing is perfect 
of course Grunberg
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:08:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:06:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: JBGrun-AT-
aol.com
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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aol.com>
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In a message dated 5/30/99 10:01:01 AM, JBGrun-AT-
aol.com writes:

<< collect the four at exactly the right moment. >>

Oops! I meant six. JG

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:35:55 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:38:42 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v03007800b37719cd0136-AT-
[140.186.62.129]>
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well, sometimes it's four and sometimes it's six!

But the important thing to me is that there's no need to hurry, a
characteristic of the dance which I experience as obscured by the emphasis
on counting!

In fact, the most important thing is to NOT hurry the circles.

                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:02:00 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:01:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Arnold <eba-AT-
umich.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.9905301207540.13025-100000-AT-
moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu>
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On Sun, 30 May 1999 JBGrun-AT-
aol.com wrote:

[snip]

 I quite understand the tension that Scott—through 
> Eric—describes. Whenever I dance Kilburn — too seldom, alas — I instinctively 
> feel the anxiety that everyone won't make it.

Ah! a subtle difference between this and what I had in mind -- The tension
that I was relishing and whose enjoyment I seek to teach is one that
involves only one's own performance in a direct way.  While admittedly the
pleasure is heightened when success is achieved among a group of dancers,
the tension that results from wondering whether _other _dancers will make
it, for me, is negative tension, because I am not responsible for how the
other dancers move except insofar as if they are truly dancing with me,
then their motions to a certain extent reflect what I do. 

When our body language indicates to other dancers that we are not happy
with the way they are dancing, that we want them somehow to do it
differently, that they are not meeting our standards, that creates a
different tension in them which interferes with the enjoyment of the
movement instead of contributing to it.  And for ourselves, too, it is
negative, because we can't guarantee that we will get the desired outcome
even if we strive for it.  We can do this with respect to our own movement
(I am taking that as a premise).  

What we can do, with respect to the way which we interact with others to
encourage the mutual enjoyment of heightened tension and resolution, is to
seek to minimize the tension in ourselves which comes from concern that
others will not "make it on time" and dance as well _with_ them as we can,
so as to establish rapport even if it isn't exactly how we'd like to do
it at first.  If we can let go of our own negative tension which makes us
send subtle messages that we're not pleased, we open up possibilities for
other types of communication, and possibly ones which will be more
effective for persuading others to strive for what we are seeking.  But at
the same time, we have to remain oopen to the possibility that others we
are dancing with have good ideas, too, perhaps ones which we haven't had,
and that trying to work with them makes as much sense as trying to get
them to do what we'd like.

A related idea is that of "being in charge".  One often senses in a set of
dancers that certain people need to be in charge of the dancing in their
sets.  Often this is expressed through early leads into figures, or
through particularly strong grips or pulls which go beyond the essential
concept of "giving weight."  If that person is someone other than
yourself, it generally is not welcome unless you have said "I'm new at
this -- give me all the help you can!" or "I don't know this dance --
guide me through it" or something like that.  If you haven't given your
permission to someone else to do this, it is not a friendly behavior, and
not one that elicits a cooperative response.  If, however, you are the
person who wants to be in charge, you can do something about it -- you can
address address the tension within yourself which makes you want to
dominate and control the set, and perhaps ease it enough that you can
relax more and enjoy the other dancers more, taking pleasure in what you
are responsible for and in the interactions you can participate in with
the other dancers, no matter how they are dancing.  Chances are,
everyone's level of enjoyment will go up, and with it, everybody's level
of dancing.  If you are really dancing very well, it is more likely under
these circumstances that the others will realize that and appreciate it,
and your leadership will come through naturally.  But you may also realize
that others are dancing very well, too, something you may not have had an
opportunity to notice before -- it may be that they weren't late after
all, they were just on time, rather than hurrying into figures with the
feeling that that was necessary to get everyone around in time.

Eric (crawling down from his mountaintop) Arnold

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:26:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:25:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905301825.NAA01238-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Emily L. Ferguson writes:
> 
> The object of the game is to cast off, circle and lead down the middle just
> in time to cast again at the beginning of the next phrase, not to cast off
> for 4 pulses, circle for 8 and lead down for 4!  If we present Kilburn by
> musical sections those who can perceive the pulse will aim for the cast at
> the beginning of each phrase.  If we present it in bits - first you do
> this, then you do that, then you do that, then you do that - people won't
> have a clue about how to make the movements fit the music.  Kilburn
> especially lends itself to the "break it up into musical phrases and learn
> and dance each one, then put it together" method, to me.
> 

   But what is it that tells the inexperienced dancer (whether a real beginner
or a perpetual one) when "just in time" is?  It seems to me there are two
possible ways to know when the time has arrived to do the next figure.  You
can tell by the passage of a certain amount of time (number of beats) or
when the music changes in a certain way.  In my case, when I began dancing,
I couldn't distinguish the differences in the music and I hadn't yet
developed a sense for when the correct amount of time has passed.  I had no
problem hearing the beat and stepping in time to it, but knowing when to
execute was beyond me, and I think this is true of many (though not all)
new dancers.  I think it takes a fair amount of experience for most people
to be able to get a feel for how long a particular figure should take.
Counting the beats is one way to do this and be able to join in the dances
from the very start without having to spend several years fumbling around
until you get the hang of it.  I guess it all depends on what your goals
are.  If I was teaching a dance to very experienced dancers, say a performance
group, I would assume they could "dance to the music" or knew how long
figures should be.  Also if you are teaching a workshop then those who attend
will be willing to spend more time listening and being taught than they do
actually dancing.  However if your purpose is to get people dancing, rather
than standing and watching, then it seems that giving them methods that
they can use to get dancing now, such as counting the beats, is a reasonable
compromise.  Point out that the goal is to dance to the music and demonstrate
that the music does tell you what to do, but don't assume that everyone will
be able to do that from the very beginning.  Some will be able to, but
many will not and we need to let them know that the figures take a certain
amount of time and give them a method to determine that timing until they
can develop the skills to dance with the music.  I have spoken with people
who considered themselves to be experienced dancers (because they've been
dancing for a certain period of time) and who weren't aware that certain
figures took a certain number of beats and that the dance and music
repeated on a regular pattern.  I try to let new dancers know these facts
and give them a variety of methods for successfully doing the dance, but
let them decide what works best for them.  I assume that if they are
successful at this dance they will come back again and if they keep coming
they will develop the skills that we would like them to.  I realize that
some won't develop beyond the beginner level, but that doesn't mean they
shouldn't be able to participate.  I always feel that if I could just think
of the right thing to say it would suddenly all come clear to them.  Perhaps
there is some truth to saying that counting can become a bad habit which is
then hard to break, but it does allow the new dancers to join in more quickly
(which is why they are there) and, as has been mentioned on this thread,
it can be a useful tool in getting through a complex dance or when something
gets messed up.

   Well I guess I've rambled on long enough.

Jonathan

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|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
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================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:51:01 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:51:43 -0400
From: Lou Vosteen <lvosteen-AT-
widomaker.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: rapturous hush
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <l03110701b37733e10c1f-AT-
[209.96.178.105]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robin Hayden wrote:

>Has anyone else noticed an increasing amount of chatter on the dance floor,
>both while the caller is teaching, so that those who need to cannot hear
>the directions, and during the dancing, so that the rapturous connection
>between dancers and musicians is spoiled?  I keep hoping to hear a
>respectful hush, so that teaching is fast and efficient and dancing is
>musical and sublime.

Regarding the _respectful hush_ during teaching, that's called good
manners. It's something we would hope that dancers would bring with them,
because it gets more difficult to teach as children get older. But since
teachers often face the problem, here are some techniques that have worked
for me:

1. Don't say anything. Usually the silence will get the attention of the
talkers when they realize they are the only ones left talking.
2. For frequent offenders, say," Fred, I think you need to hear this."
3. As a last resort, start the music. Invariably, the talkers will stand
there not knowing what to do. Then you can stop and say, " Let me go over
the figures once again."

As for talking during the dance, that is an integral aspect of social
dancing as so well depicted in some of the recent Jane Austin
dramitizations. Fortunately, I haven't found that to be a serious problem
where I dance.

Lou Vosteen


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 15:43:36 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:45:52 -0400
From: "Emily L. Ferguson" <elf-AT-
cape.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v03007800b3776b964212-AT-
[140.186.62.151]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 1:25 PM -0500 5/30/99, Jonathan Sivier wrote:
>Emily L. Ferguson writes:
>>
>> The object of the game is to cast off, circle and lead down the middle just
>> in time to cast again at the beginning of the next phrase, not to cast off
>> for 4 pulses, circle for 8 and lead down for 4!  If we present Kilburn by
>> musical sections those who can perceive the pulse will aim for the cast at
>> the beginning of each phrase.  If we present it in bits - first you do
>> this, then you do that, then you do that, then you do that - people won't
>> have a clue about how to make the movements fit the music.  Kilburn
>> especially lends itself to the "break it up into musical phrases and learn
>> and dance each one, then put it together" method, to me.
>>
>
>   But what is it that tells the inexperienced dancer (whether a real beginner
>or a perpetual one) when "just in time" is?

That's what I was referring to in the final sentence.

If the dance is presented to the dancers musical phrase by musical phrase,
rather than number of counts (beats, pulses), the dancers learn to connect
the movements to the relevant section of music, which is the long-term goal
here in English dancing (since the melodies are unique, in most cases, to
the dances).


Any 8 beats won't do, only the ones that exude from the melody we use for
Kilburn.  So it seems very desirable to me to hook the movements to their
sections of the melody, and the best way I can think of to do that is to
present the movement i.e. have them walk it through, then present it with
it's melody section i.e. have them dance it.

That's what doodling can facilitate, unless you have Earl around, in which
case he'll pick up on the teaching/leading and accompany the walk-through
with the appropriate section of the melody.

> It seems to me there are two
>possible ways to know when the time has arrived to do the next figure.  You
>can tell by the passage of a certain amount of time (number of beats) or
>when the music changes in a certain way.  In my case, when I began dancing,
>I couldn't distinguish the differences in the music and I hadn't yet
>developed a sense for when the correct amount of time has passed.  I had no
>problem hearing the beat and stepping in time to it, but knowing when to
>execute was beyond me, and I think this is true of many (though not all)
>new dancers.  I think it takes a fair amount of experience for most people
>to be able to get a feel for how long a particular figure should take.
>Counting the beats is one way to do this and be able to join in the dances
>from the very start without having to spend several years fumbling around
>until you get the hang of it.  I guess it all depends on what your goals
>are.  If I was teaching a dance to very experienced dancers, say a performance
>group, I would assume they could "dance to the music" or knew how long
>figures should be.

We do assume that certain figures will fit certain amounts of music, I
agree.  And we do have to illustrate that, as well as help new dancers
learn it by doing.  I agree with both of them.

But I prefer to use any method which brings the new dancer into awareness
of the music as quickly as possible, which is different for each person of
course.

However, I prefer also to avoid any method which will distract them from
that end goal.  So I personally would prefer to avoid counting, because I
see it as not encouraging listening to and dancing to the music.

>Also if you are teaching a workshop then those who attend
>will be willing to spend more time listening and being taught than they do
>actually dancing.  However if your purpose is to get people dancing, rather
>than standing and watching, then it seems that giving them methods that
>they can use to get dancing now, such as counting the beats, is a reasonable
>compromise.

Ah, ha.  We may be at the crux of the discussion here.  In Boston our focus
is on the teaching part of leading through the first two hours of our
dance, so there is a general assumption that people come to learn, as well
as have a good time.

This does make it easier for us to wax more poetic on the "teaching" part
than we might at a general dance, what we call a party dance.

However, I am a proponent of the maximum integration of the two things -
teaching and leading.  And I think it can be done without an actual class
environment, over a period of time, without leaving any customers out of
the action due to confusion about how to do the dance.

>I have spoken with people
>who considered themselves to be experienced dancers (because they've been
>dancing for a certain period of time) and who weren't aware that certain
>figures took a certain number of beats and that the dance and music
>repeated on a regular pattern.

I believe this comes from the leaders presenting the dances in such a way
as to obscure this essential aspect of the dancing.  Reciting off a
sequence of figures is certainly one way to convey the order of events in a
dance, but presenting that sequence so that the dancers see and feel the
punctuation points will lead to more skilled dancing and dancers, as well
as less confusion on the floor generally.  And I think even the experienced
dancers would appreciate such an approach, especially when there are
moments when it's not clear how to phrase the figure.

In the above paragraph I'm mostly thinking about how contra dancing is done
now-a-days.  And how it's called.

Sometimes I think the callers don't know how the figure sequence fits the
music!


                            Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts
                                                      elf-AT-
cape.com
                             Photographer, English Country Dance leader

                                              Small brave carnivores
                                             Kill pine cones and mosquitoes.
                                             Fear vacuum cleaner.

from "Kitty Haiku"


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 15:49:19 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:48:14 -0400
From: Albert Blank <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3751C02E.BF3907A3-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <199905301825.NAA01238-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>

Jonathan Sivier wrote (in part):
  	"But what is it that tells the inexperienced dancer (whether a real
beginner or
a perpetual one) when "just in time" is?"

    	Not "what" tells but who.  It is the dance leader.  

	A skill well known to the old time contra callers and honed to razor 
sharpness was "calling down on the cadence."  Ralph Page was a master at
this.  
Nowadays calling too often means just talking.  The more refined art is
to call 
the next move rhythmically so that the last beat of the call coincides
with the 
last beat of the prior musical and dance phrase.

    	This is not an easy skill for the leader.  It takes a good deal of
preliminary
preparation, practicing timing, and a careful choice of words.

  	Many of the problems mentioned in this long thread would be solved if
more
leaders took the time for this extra effort.

--
Albert A. Blank
e-mail: fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:18:39 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:05:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Praetzel <dancer-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Monthly archives available
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905311505.LAA23408-AT-
sca.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

 
> In response to a veritable hail of requests -- well, four -- I've made 
> monthly list archives available on the web in addition to the searchable
> complete archive.

  Hi Alan,

  How did you setup the archive / searching.
  I've got a searchable list-serv on my server; but I'm doing searches with
  grep and it is awfully slow going thru 50 M of archive files!
 
  You seen to be using some type of a search engine that perhaps uses a
  database.  Could you give me some clues on what you've got setup.

Thanks,

  - Eric
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:39:49 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:39:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905311739.MAA11228-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Albert Blank writes:
> 
> Jonathan Sivier wrote (in part):
>   	"But what is it that tells the inexperienced dancer (whether a real
> beginner or
> a perpetual one) when "just in time" is?"
> 
>     	Not "what" tells but who.  It is the dance leader.  

    Ah, but as I understand it the goal in ECD (and contra dance as well)
is to dance to the music without calling.  The caller may prompt the first
few times through the dance, but at some point he/she should drop out and
let the dancers dance.  Thus the dancers need some skill that will enable
them to know when "just in time" is when there is no calling.  You are
correct that there are some callers who are better than others, at calling,
but this discussion, as far as I know, is about how to teach the dancers
skills that will allow them to dance without calling.  The best is for
them to develop the ability to hear the changes in the music and, recognizing
the different parts, anticipate and know when to go on to the next figure.
However, different people learn in different ways and some people have great
difficulty hearing the phrases of the music, especially when they are
beginning to learn to dance.  In no way am I advocating teaching people to
count exclusively, but I do think it is wrong to exclude those who have
difficulty hearing the phrasing of the music when there are alternate
methods they can use (i.e. counting) to be able to participate.  It must be
wonderful to have hours to spend on teaching these sorts of things and I
would probably do things differently in that case, however when you only
have one two hour dance each month you had better make sure that the
teaching to dancing ratio is relatively low or people will become bored
with standing around and go elsewhere.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:03:47 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:03:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sue Wartell <swartell-AT-
cas.org>
Subject: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <199905311803.OAA23866-AT-
cas.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
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One thing that has been hinted at during this discussion, but not 
addressed directly is that fact that people learn differently.  What is 
one person's distraction may be another's learning tool of choice.  
Giving people a variety of tools to use is best.  "To a man with a 
hammer, everything looks like a nail."  Using counting as the only way 
to convey the fit of the steps to the music is not the solution, but 
neither is withholding all explicit inforrmation about the number of 
steps required for a particular move.  In the broader scheme of things, 
people have different preferences for taking in and processing 
information.  Some have to hear it (and they are probably the most 
likely to soonest hear the information in the music), some have to see 
it (either on paper or in their imagination), and some have to feel it 
(actually have to move through space to get the "feel" of it.)  None of 
these modes is wrong, or intrinsically inferior - they are just 
different.  Teaching only to your own preference is not effective, 
because you are guaranteed to miss some of your potential audience.

Some people are very good at recognizing a tune and hearing the phrasing 
in it, and some find that skill a _major_ challenge to learn.  Auditory 
processing is an area of great complexity - and people vary dramatically 
in it.

Learning to dance to the phrase of the music is wonderful - but if I 
don't know that for a particular new dance there are 4 beats for the 
cast, rather than 8, I won't phrase the figure correctly - I'll get 
there late.  And, sorry, but some people's deedling bears so little 
resemblance to the actual music that it is useless to me (unless I try 
to count the beats during the deedling, which distracts my attention 
from the figure I'm supposed to be fitting to the phrase).  The real 
solution may be to clone Earl so that every dance could have him.  :-)  
And that brings up another issue out in the real world - we don't all 
have musicians familiar with the tunes and with playing together, for 
all of our dances - sometimes the music is less useful as a guide than 
you might wish in an ideal world.  (And while recordings are a partial 
solution to that, I much prefer our live music, even when it's not 
perfect.)

Sometimes just a hint about phrasing is enough - if given at the right 
time, i.e., when the preson is ready to process it.  At a contra a few 
months ago, the caller was coping quite well with the large number of 
beginners, and things were OK, as long as she called.  She conveyed the 
sense of the phrasing very well in her calls.  In one dance, my partner 
(one of the new folks) did fine as long as the calling contined, but 
when the caller dropped out, he started running into people - turning 
too soon, or too late, on down the middle and back, or starting or 
ending circles at the wrong time.  He had the pattern down, but despite 
the caller's efforts to link to the music through many repetitions, he 
hadn't "gotten it".  During one of the circles, I mentioned (repeating 
the caller's words from earlier in the evening) that many of the figures 
were 8 steps long and fit to the music.  He was delighted, and counted 
during down and back under his breath a couple times, just to check it 
out - and he finished out that dance quite smoothly (and not counting 
out loud).  He wasn't an accomplished dancer yet, but his expression and 
body language indicated that he was feeling successful, rather than 
frustrated as he had been earlier.   I don't know if it was the counting 
or the phrase of the music that he was using, and it didn't matter to 
me.  On the other hand, my husband is a very accomplished musician who 
has played for dancers for many years, and I doubt that he has "counted" 
the beats in anything in the last 20 or more years.  Yet dancing with 
him can be frustrating, because he is so aware of the phrases of the 
music that he will occasionally start the next figure from wherever he 
is when the music changes, regardless of the fact he's out of position 
to do so.  (As a dancer, he's a beginner; my point is that you can have 
problems, as well as successes,  with either method of fitting motion to 
music.)

Many beginners I've known are so intent on figuring out where their 
bodies need to be and remembering the sequence of moves (many with 
strange or confusing names - turn by the right and turn over your right 
shoulder have some key words in common, but are very different in terms 
of what you do!  and after a couple turns, which way is up?) that 
demanding that they need to remember the melody at the same time seems a 
bit much.  After all, you really can't get "there" on time unless you 
have a notion about where "there" is supposed to be, and how you are 
meant to get there.

To reitereate my main point in this very long ramble, I think we should 
borrow the technique of teaching that seeks to present the same 
information in multiple ways to deal with people's different preferences 
in how to learn.  There is no one "right" way - there are many ways, 
each of which may be right for some of us.

Sue Wartell

P.S. 
One thing that has puzzled me in this thread is the concern that 
counting leads people to be somewhere early.  When I resort to counting, 
it is generally to _counter_ a tendancy to arrive ahead of the music.  
Perhaps it's because I learned Scottish first, but knowing I have 8 
counts to get somewhere, I automatically adjust so that I'm half-way 
there in 4, and if I've messed up and am more than half-way, I can slow 
up and arrive on time.  

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:23:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:17:59 -0400
From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman-AT-
albany.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <v04205102b37882b034f4-AT-
[206.72.193.213]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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cas.org>

>After all, you really can't get "there" on time unless you
>have a notion about where "there" is supposed to be, and how you are
>meant to get there.
>
>To reitereate my main point in this very long ramble, I think we should
>borrow the technique of teaching that seeks to present the same
>information in multiple ways to deal with people's different preferences
>in how to learn.  There is no one "right" way - there are many ways,
>each of which may be right for some of us.
>
>Sue Wartell

Well said Sue!

Mary Beth

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:30:22 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:29:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: JoAnne Rawls <ljrawls-AT-
hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Looking Back at Balls: Your First
To: ecd-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <19990531182943.55354.qmail-AT-
hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello to all!

Is it really true that you never forget your first time? (No - I'm talking 
about your first ECD ball). Most of you who read this list have been dancing 
for twenty, thirty, forty years, or longer - does it become routine? Do the 
balls you attend run together in your mind, or can you pluck one from your 
mental archives and still savor the experience?

I came to English country dancing relatively late in life, and have danced 
less than a year. Nevertheless, I cannot now imagine life without it! This 
past Saturday, my husband and I attended our first ball; it was such a happy 
experience that I want to share it with "those who know." Think back, if you 
will, and remember your first ball. If the memories are too good to keep to 
yourselves, please share.

Nestled in the rolling "horse country" of central Virginia is Louisa County, 
where a thriving ECD group resides. (But don't look for them online; they 
can't be found on the web). Every year around Memorial Day, it has been the 
practice of one Louisa couple to open their plantation home for a ball and 
invite ECD groups from surrounding areas. There is no registration and no 
fee...you just show up. The casual nature of the arrangements and the 
willingness of two Williamsburg dancers to go with us and navigate, 
convinced us that it was time to take the plunge.

We arrived at Glen Beau just before the first dance began. The house is 
hidden away at the end of a long, one-lane, gravel drive, surrounded by 
boxwoods and rose gardens. We followed the brick walkway around to the 
back...and stepped into another time. A deep, wide porch spanned the back of 
the house, with the musicians and caller at one end.  The rest of the porch 
contained a longways set of dancers, and a few chairs and benches. Other 
dancers had formed sets along the walks and the patio below. The costume 
fanciers among you would have been in heaven; almost everyone was in period 
garb. I must confess to a momentary qualm as I watched the first dance, 
wondering what in the world I was doing there...but once we started dancing 
The Young Widow, we became a part of it.

The dances were walked through once, but not prompted. Most of them were 
unfamiliar to us, but easy to learn from the walkthrough. Although we were 
some of only a few in contemporary dress, no one made us feel out of place 
or unwelcome. On the contrary, they were so friendly that we didn't give our 
out-of-period clothes another thought. One of the highlights for me was 
meeting (and dancing with!) people with whom I'd corresponded through this 
list.

I'm told that it was more like an 18th Century house party than a ball. A 
magician from Colonial Williamsburg entertained us with authentic illusions 
during a break, and there were fireworks by the lake as we lined up to 
partake of a splendid buffet supper. The dancers were of all ages, from very 
young children to senior citizens. Sometimes the children would form their 
own set on the grass, and the dance would resemble an exuberant game. A 
flock of pea fowl perched in the trees and called out their raucous comments 
with each burst of applause. One peacock perched on the very top of the 
chimney, playing lord of the manor against the darkening sky. As we danced 
Easter Thursday, a full moon climbed up through the trees by the lake.

Like Cinderella, we had to leave before midnight...it was a long way back to 
Williamsburg and Newport News. But when I close my eyes and think about the 
evening, it all comes back to me. The scent of roses and honeysuckle. The 
cooling breeze after the heat of an early summer day. The smiles of old 
friends and new, as we danced together along the set. The sound of flute, 
harpsichord and strings playing the old, sweet music. The taste of 
chocolate-dipped strawberries. The silvery moonlight making shadows on the 
grass. It was a magical evening, and a beautiful introduction to the larger 
world of English country dancing.

JoAnne Rawls
Newport News, VA
jrawls-AT-
sbo.nn.k12.va.us


_______________________________________________________________


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:44:07 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:43:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905311843.NAA17291-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Sue Wartell writes:
> 
> an excellent message about how different people learn in different ways,
> what works for one won't work for another and vice-versa, so we teachers
> need to try to present the information we are trying to get across in
> multiple ways and let the dancers use the method that works best for
> them.

   You said all of the things I've been trying to say, in a much clearer
and better organized manner.  Thanks.

Jonathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:49:21 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:48:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Sivier <j-sivier-AT-
ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Playford Ball, June 5, Urbana, IL
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <199905311848.NAA17722-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

                  The Central Illinois English Country Dancers
                                Invite You To An

                   E N G L I S H   C O U N T R Y   D A N C E
                           P L A Y F O R D   B A L L


   The Central Illinois English Country Dancers will be holding their fourth
annual Playford Ball on Saturday, June 5, 1999.  The dance will be held
in room 314 of the Illini Student Union, 1401 W. Green, Urbana, IL, on the
campus of the University of Illinois.  There will be  a review of the evening's
dances from 7:00 to 8:00, followed by the Ball from 8:00 to 11:00 p.m.  Fans
and finery are encouraged.  There will be a $5.00 suggested donation to help
cover the cost of the Ball.  All lovers of English Country dance and music are
welcome.

Dances Lead By: Susan Burt, Jane Hobgood and Jonathan Sivier
Music Provided By: The Flatland Consort
Dance Review: 7:00 p.m.
Playford Ball: 8:00 to 11:00 p.m.
Date: Saturday, June 5, 1999
Location: Illini Union, room 314, 1401 W. Green, Urbana, IL
Suggested Donation: $5.00

   There will be refreshments at the break and a party following the dance.

   There will be a costume contest with a Top Couple (King and Queen of the
Ball) being chosen.

Here is the list of dances we will be doing:

Appley House
The Bishop
Chelmsford Assembly
Circle Waltz
The Duke of Kent's Waltz
Gathering Peascods
A Grand March
Indian Queen
Jenny Pluck Pears
La Russe
Lull Me Beyond Thee
Mad Robin
Money In Both Pockets
The Queen's Jig
Sun Assembly

   For further information contact Jonathan Sivier (j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu) at
217/359-8225 or Jane Hobgood at 217/328-1708 or check the webpage at -
http://www.prairienet.org/ciecd/playford.html

   Thanks for the support of the Champaign Park District and the International
Folk Dance Society.

   For those who are interested, the Urbana Country Dancers will be holding a
contra dance on Friday, June 4, from 8 to 11 p.m. at the Phillip's Recreation
Center in Urbana.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |Q: How many angels can dance on the   |
|  j-sivier-AT-
uiuc.edu             |   head of a pin?                     |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |A: It depends on what dance you call. |
|  Beckman Institute             |                                      |
|  405 N. Mathews                |  SWMDG - Single White Male           |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |          Dance Gypsy                 |
|  Work: 217/244-1923            |                                      |
|  Home: 217/359-8225            |  Have shoes, will dance.             |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Home page URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/j-sivier                   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:45:33 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:45:23 -0400
From: Albert Blank <fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Message-ID: <3752E6D3.6C675108-AT-
sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: <199905311739.MAA11228-AT-
staff1.cso.uiuc.edu>

Jonathan Sivier wrote:

> Albert Blank writes:
> >
> > Jonathan Sivier wrote (in part):
> >       "But what is it that tells the inexperienced dancer (whether a real
> > beginner or
> > a perpetual one) when "just in time" is?"
> >
> >       Not "what" tells but who.  It is the dance leader.
>
>     Ah, but as I understand it the goal in ECD (and contra dance as well)
> is to dance to the music without calling.  The caller may prompt the first
> few times through the dance, but at some point he/she should drop out and
> let the dancers dance.

Of course, Jonathan.  The caller should also start compressing calls as soon as
people get it.  He should omit any calls that aren't needed and put them back
when he guesses wrong.  Eventually he should only give one word prompts at the
obvious "forget" points. Finally, nothing.
    It was not my intention to give a long disquisition on the caller's art.
Merely to place responsibility on the dance leader for teaching dancers the
skills in discussion -- more by example than talk.  Good calling teaches phrasing
by example.  No discussion or elaboration is necessary.
---
Albert A. Blank
e-mail: fandango-AT-
sprintmail.com


================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:02:41 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:02:31 -0700
From: Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
CC: hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com
Message-ID: <199905312002.AA043900951-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

"Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com> wrote:
>Bruce Hamilton wrote:
>> [...] The movement is
>> effortless (literally ballistic, if the tempo permits) ...
>[...]  My dictionary says that ballistic relates to the
>flight characteristics of projectiles in free-fall trajectories.

This is exactly what I mean.  In my first country dance class at
Pinewoods, Helene Cornelius criticized my dancing because I simply
took big steps when I wanted to go fast.  That works, but it's effort-
ful and the work is done by your legs.  If you do it ballistically,
then gravity does the work for you.  I remember the first time this
happened (Pinewoods again, a couple of years later) -- there was wind
in my hair, I was going so fast, and I didn't seem to be expending any
effort.  There may be no historical justification for Sharp's running
step, but there's a kinesthetic one: the body clearly says, "hey, this
feels right!"


On the subject of counting, Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
wrote:
>What is clear, helpful, and conducive to good habits for one person
>provokes confusion, frustration and bad habits in another.  A valuable
>technique for good teaching is to offer several verbal descriptions
>and mental models for the same desired skill, behavior or idea,
>allowing different students to latch on to the one that (finally)
>speaks to them.

Right in general, but the way of thinking about the subject is part of
the subject.  I go for visual presentations of dancing, auditory
(verbal and non-verbal) presentations of dancing, and kinetic
presentations of dancing, all in as rich a mix as possible.  But I
don't go for numeric presentations of dancing.  My objection is not
that numbers aren't effective -- they are very effective.  My
objection is that, for many people, numbers displace music.

To cast this in terms of teaching theory, I'd say: if there's a bad
habit that you know is hard to eradicate, don't let your students form
it, even if that means bending some other principles.

Now, this is theory; in practice a hundred other factors arise.  There
are cases where, all things considered, I'd choose to count to my
dancers.  Say, for example, I'm talking one-on-one to a person who
already thinks in numbers -- more numbers won't hurt.  Or someone
still does not get phrasing after many, many attempts with non-numeric
methods -- in that case I'll risk the difficulty that numbers bring.

>Let's not remove a valuable tool from our kit.
Keep a nail gun in your toolkit.  Use it when you have a very hard-
to-drive nail.  Be careful where you point it.


I'll guess that musicians are first taught to count, and later are
taught to sound as though they are not counting.  Gene, Suzanne, other
experienced musicians, how does this work?  How long does it take?
What fraction of musicians reach that second stage?

Bruce Hamilton			Hewlett-Packard Laboratories     MS-4AD
Phone 650-857-2818		PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA  94303-0889
Fax   650-852-8092		bruce_hamilton-AT-
hpl.hp.com
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:51:56 PST
Sender: owner-ecd-AT-
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Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:04:14 -0400
From: sol weber <solweber-AT-
juno.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: COUNTING
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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My own (inflationary) 3 cents re counting, mostly random 
thoughts.

I remember the difficulty I had, years ago, when first learning 
Tallis' Canon, especially when it was being badly taught.  I
finally got it when I began to count the 16 beats in each of the 
4 parts.  I occasionally mention this to someone who is new 
to the dance, and it often helps.  A great crutch when starting
out.

Counting can be very helpful, even to those with SOME experience,
in some dances where the pace changes quite rapidly from one part
to another, as in Mr Bev's Maggot, and arriving somewhere either too
early or too late can easily occur (not to mention the goings-on during 
Trip to Paris).

An occasional interesting dance has a different number of beats in 
the various sections, in sometimes odd ways, and it can be a 
worthwhile intellectual exercise to figure out why it works.    

On a topic that at first I thought was unrelated -- yes, as Robin Hayden
mentioned, there *can* be too much chatter on the dance floor -- but
then it occurred to me that counting can be helpful in overcoming the
noise and other distractions at various times, especially in teaching 
situations and for the less experienced. 


++++++Sol "Roundman"  Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time"
++++++25-14  37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am)
++++++SINGERS and musicians, contact me for info on books, albums, 
++++++     and assorted musical fun;  solweber-AT-
JUNO.com 
+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone.
================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:43:16 PST
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Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:37:00 -1000
From: "Yona B. & Alvin Keali'i Chock" <alchock-AT-
worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD <ECD-AT-
PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
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As a contra prompter and square dance caller who eavesdrops on the ECD
List because we don't have any ECD dancing in Honolulu, I'd like to
catch this thread.  I suggest to new dancers that they step on each beat
of music even when they are standing still.  On any given beat you have
a free foot ready.  If you stop moving and lock your knees, it may take
an extra ½ beat to get going again.  When I'm dancing and I run into a
patch of "rhythmically challenged" dancers, I sometimes count to myself
aloud to preserve my own precarious timing, but also to try to make them
aware that (a) there is a "beat," (b) sometimes even experienced dancers
need to count to be sure , and (c) it's OK to do it if you need it.

It's impossible to generalize on leading up as dancers; timing and
personal styling vary.  I like the look of it and try to catch my
partner's eye in advance.  Sometimes it works.

It seems to be the local custom in Hawai'i in contra lines to walk it
through once or twice, and then :"go back to where you started."  This
usually produces a scrimmage of people blundering up and down the set at
random [and many of the newer (and sometimes even the experienced)
dancers don't remember where they started].  When I'm calling I prefer
not to "reset," but if I must, I ask the active men to take their ladies
by the hand and lead up the center to their starting place.  This gives
everybody a direction - inactives down the outside alone, and actives up
with partners.  It looks better and works faster.  If you are
"resetting" your sets, give it a try.  If you are doing an exhibition it
can cover a multitude of bloopers.

Aloha,
Yona Chock



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Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 21:15:41 PST
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Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:15:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: dance-music connection (was Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Sun, 30 May 1999, Emily L. Ferguson wrote:

> ...it seems very desirable to me to hook the movements to their
> sections of the melody, and the best way I can think of to do that is to
> present the movement i.e. have them walk it through, then present it with
> it's melody section i.e. have them dance it.
> 
> That's what doodling can facilitate, unless you have Earl around, in which
> case he'll pick up on the teaching/leading and accompany the walk-through
> with the appropriate section of the melody.

question for callers: do you try to work with musicians other than earl to
make this happen? 

when it's a dance i already know, i can play along with a walk-through if
it's clear that a caller would like me to.  (they don't often ask.)  if i
don't know the dance, it helps if the caller knows the structure of the
tune well enough to ask for, say, bars 5-8 of the 2nd B.  even more
helpful for a dance i don't know is a copy of the tune on the same page
with the dance instructions (whether or not the tune is found in barnes).  
then i don't have to wait for the dancers to learn it to understand how
the music fits the dance. (and when i play the wrong number of A parts or
B parts, i can correct myself by noticing that the down the hall four in
line, say, should have started on the first B...)

last summer in laurie andres's ecd music workshop at buffalo gap, we had
enough musicians to have some play while others danced.  it really helps
musicians to be able to do this.  

and while i have the floor - it's probably been said here before, but
bears repeating.  callers can increase the chances that the music will be
as good as possible by getting a program to the band well in advance.
has anyone ever tried including with the program some tempo indications
for the unfamiliar tunes?  an approximate metronome marking can be very
helpful.

the germantown country dancers have developed a list of 20 or so
"repertoire dancers" from which a caller can substitute on the fly; local
musicians are expected to be able to play all of them, whether they were
on the program or not. do other groups have similar systems?

susie lorand
princeton, nj, usa
trying to get my eyes off the music and watch the dancers...

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 21:34:28 PST
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Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:34:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Susan R. Lorand" <srl-AT-
phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: dance-music connection (was Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up)
To: ECD-AT-
SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Susan R. Lorand wrote:
> 
> the germantown country dancers have developed a list of 20 or so
> "repertoire dancers"....

i meant "repertoire dances".

susie lorand
who proofreads better on paper than on the screen...

================================================================================
Archive-Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:04:08 PST
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Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:07:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lyrl Ahern <lyrl-AT-
yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ECD-AT-
playford.slac.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: 1s cast down, 2s move up
To: ECD-AT-
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--- Bruce Hamilton <hamilton-AT-
hplbh.hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> "Michael J. O'Connor" <mjoconor-AT-
erols.com> wrote:
> >Bruce Hamilton wrote:
> >> [...] The movement is effortless (literally ballistic, if the >
>> tempo permits) ...
> >[...]  My dictionary says that ballistic relates to the
> >flight characteristics of projectiles in free-fall trajectories.
> 
> This is exactly what I mean. In my first country dance class at
> Pinewoods, Helene Cornelius criticized my dancing because I simply
> took big steps when I wanted to go fast. That works, but it's
> effortful and the work is done by your legs. If you do it 
> ballistically, then gravity does the work for you. I remember the 
> first time this happened (Pinewoods again, a couple of years later)
> -- there was wind in my hair, I was going so fast, and I didn't
seem > to be expending any effort. 
> feels right!"

The style right after WW II was very...leaning. Our Pinewoods
historian, Ed Wilfert, has turned up some pictures from that period
showing the dancers with a definate tilt. 
    Genny Shimer is in some of those pictures, and she was one of my
early teachers. (I went to Pinewoods when I had been dancing about 4
months.) I can remember her speaking about how your body should be
ahead of your feet, and you had to dance to keep from falling on your
face. I connected this idea with that of Dolores Humphries, an early
20th C. Modern Dance choreographer, who saw dance as
fall-and-recover.
    I like Bruce's term "ballistic." It describes so well how I try
to dance, throwing myself into it wholly.

> On the subject of counting, Gene Murrow <gmurrow-AT-
compuserve.com>
> wrote:
> >What is clear, helpful, and conducive to good habits for one
person
> >provokes confusion, frustration and bad habits in another. A 
> >valuable technique for good teaching is to offer several verbal
> >descriptions and mental models for the same desired skill,
behavior > >or idea, allowing different students to latch on to the
one that
> >(finally) speaks to them.
> 
Bruce replies:
> Right in general, but the way of thinking about the subject is part
> of the subject. I go for visual presentations of dancing, auditory
> (verbal and non-verbal) presentations of dancing, and kinetic
> presentations of dancing, all in as rich a mix as possible. But I
> don't go for numeric presentations of dancing. My objection is not
> that numbers aren't effective -- they are very effective. My
> objection is that, for many people, numbers displace music.

This discussion about counting has been fascinating. It got me
thinking about what I do myself. I don't count. Ever. Even in Trip to
Kilburn. There's a note in the tune that says, "Time to circle." When
a leader starts talking about counting, I tune out.
    I have always heard musical phrases, right from the beginning.
What I am wondering about is, how much is learning style affected by
early training? Is my so instinctively hearing the phrases due to the
fact that I learned to read music a few months after I learned to
read words?

Lyrl Ahern
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