Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 05:50:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:50:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: standards To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello comrades, I'm coming late to this discussion and apologize if in fact all is settled. But having spent the last 2 weeks or so in Blighty I come back with earsfull of politics about EFDSS and its troubles. Let me put in a vote against CDSS (or any other body) being promoted to running significant standards and training programs. Speaking strictly as an outsider, it seems to me that most of the methods EFDSS has promoted over the last few decades (by which I mean any sort of centralization, as opposed to local bodies) has hastened its decline. Its membership is about 1/3 of what it was between the wars. People just seem not to like working with it -- except with the Library, for which everyone has only praise. Let's encourage CDSS to continue its model of a relatively weak central body, in balance with strong local bodies and programs. It will keep it healthy. Believe me, it's chilling to read some of the EFDSS debates. Steve Corrsin, in a serious mood ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 04:43:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:45:02 -0500 From: Don Bell Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980806074502.006f9d3c-AT- nycap.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks -- I'm looking for a sheet music source for the popular Christmas tune, "Ding Dong Merrily". The orginal tune was 'Branle l'officiel' from Thoinot Arbeau's 16th century French dance treatise Orchesographie (1589). It's to go with a dance I've written called "Trip to Woodstock". Hopefully, the tune hasn't already been used by someone for an English dance.) It must be in many Christmas carol collections. However, cruising the web I've only located the most expensive edition (CHRISTMAS QUARTETS =B7 10 Christmas Carols arranged for String Quartet by Barrie Carson Turner=B7 ST12502 score and parts - $24.95). (It's a little touch of irony for me now to be seeking out a tune with such a name, given that in my youth I fled from childish taunts beginning with "Ding dong bell, pussy in the well...etc., a folly often shared by anyone with the last name 'Bell'.)=20 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:04:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:03:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808051503.LAA08000-AT- mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Don, I can give you the sheet music, but that's because I wrote a 3-couple set dance to it called Merrily on High which Helene tried out last summer at Pinewoods E&A [inevitably, the band switched the title to Mary Lea Is High]. I've no problem with your setting a dance to the same tune--I know 3 separate dances set to Early One Morning, for example (2 with that same name!), and when you've got a tune that's made for dancing like Branle l'officiel, you're bound to have lots of folks playing around with it. Let me know if you want the sheet music--and I'd love to see Trip to= Woodstock.=20 Hugs, Sharon At 07:45 AM 8/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >Folks -- > >I'm looking for a sheet music source for the popular Christmas tune, "Ding >Dong Merrily". The orginal tune was 'Branle l'officiel' from Thoinot >Arbeau's 16th century French dance treatise Orchesographie (1589). It's to >go with a dance I've written called "Trip to Woodstock". Hopefully, the >tune hasn't already been used by someone for an English dance.) It must be >in many Christmas carol collections. However, cruising the web I've only >located the most expensive edition (CHRISTMAS QUARTETS =B7 10 Christmas >Carols arranged for String Quartet by Barrie Carson Turner=B7 ST12502 score >and parts - $24.95). > >(It's a little touch of irony for me now to be seeking out a tune with such >a name, given that in my youth I fled from childish taunts beginning with >"Ding dong bell, pussy in the well...etc., a folly often shared by anyone >with the last name 'Bell'.)=20 > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:48:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:21:47 -0400 From: solweber-AT- juno.com (sol weber) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Amazing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980805.114225.4310.52.solweber-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The speed with which ecd calls for help are answered never ceases to amaze me. Don Bell made (will make?) a request for info on Ding Dong Merrily on Thurs Aug 6, but Sharon Green supplied the answer on Aug 5. A fast woman, indeed. \+++++Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" ++++++25-14 37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am) +++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:02:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Amazing - The future is yesterday To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980805155846.25603.rocketmail-AT- web4.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---sol weber wrote: > > The speed with which ecd calls for help are answered never ceases to > amaze me. Don Bell made (will make?) a request for info on Ding Dong > Merrily on Thurs Aug 6, but Sharon Green supplied the answer on Aug 5. > A fast woman, indeed. Sol's comment reminds me of the old limerick: There once was a lady from Bright Whose speed was much faster than light. She set out one day in a relative way and returned on the previous night. Clearly someone needs to write a dance on that theme. Any takers? Barbara Ruth (Who is usually still trying to finish up yesterday today, never mind worrying about tomorrow). _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:28:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:27:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Amazing - The future is yesterday To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Barbara Ruth wrote: [snip] > There once was a lady from Bright > Whose speed was much faster than light. > She set out one day > in a relative way > and returned on the previous night. > > Clearly someone needs to write a dance on that theme. Any takers? What's holding you forward? Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:55:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:44:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If all else fails, I believe Dover still publishes a reprint of "Orchesografie" at a more reasonable price. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:26:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:18:00 -0400 From: "Fager, Martin" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" -- BRANLE?? To: "ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU " , Don Bell Message-ID: <199808052219.SAA27737-AT- gate.bowne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT [Snip], I'm looking for a sheet music source for the popular Christmas tune, "Ding Dong Merrily". The orginal tune was 'Branle l'officiel' from Thoinot Arbeau's 16th century French dance treatise Orchesographie (1589)...(Don Bell) ___________________________________________________________________ I've several times come across the term "Branle", also spelled Bransle, it seems. I am under the impression that it was a type of dance done in France in the 1500's. Can anyone shed some light on this dance form, if that is indeed what it is? Thanks. Marty Fager Brooklyn, NY ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:15:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" -- BRANLE?? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: "ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU " , Don Bell Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Marty Fager, All such questions as what is a branle may now be answered by checking in the _International Encyclopedia of Dance_, published by OUP America in February. My article on the branle will probably tell you more than you wanted to know. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:15:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" -- BRANLE?? To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: "ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU " , Don Bell Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Marty Fager, All such questions as what is a branle may now be answered by checking in the _International Encyclopedia of Dance_, published by OUP America in February. My article on the branle will probably tell you more than you wanted to know. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:04:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:06:09 -0500 From: Don Bell Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980806210609.006f7c64-AT- nycap.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks for the info. Don At 10:44 AM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >If all else fails, I believe Dover still publishes a reprint of >"Orchesografie" at a more reasonable price. > >Peace. >Paul > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:32:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:34:31 -0500 From: Don Bell Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Trip to Woodstock To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980806213431.006f5d14-AT- nycap.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 11:03 AM 8/5/98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Don, > >I can give you the sheet music, but that's because I wrote a 3-couple set >dance to it called Merrily on High which Helene tried out last summer at >Pinewoods E&A [inevitably, the band switched the title to Mary Lea Is= High]. Good pun! >I've no problem with your setting a dance to the same tune--I know 3 >separate dances set to Early One Morning, for example (2 with that same >name!), and when you've got a tune that's made for dancing like Branle >l'officiel, you're bound to have lots of folks playing around with it. > >Let me know if you want the sheet music--and I'd love to see Trip to Woodstock.=20 > >Hugs, >Sharon > Hi Sharon! Thanks for your kind offer. I suspected that a dance afficionado such as yourself may have had a pass at this tune before. I'm glad you have no problem with sharing the tune with another dance. I'd like to get a copy of the sheet music and your dance too if possible. It would be fun to try them back-to-back sometime, maybe at a Christmas dance. No doubt you can identify with the title too, if you've ever taken the backroads of Woodstock to call a Woodstock dance. Here it is below in its current state. I keep thinking it's finished and then it changes a little more. The dance began with wanting to have 2 gating figures in succession. I also wanted a light and jumpy feeling in the A part followed by a smooth and flowing B part. I composed the dance and then went looking for a tune. I used Jack's Health at first just to have something to dance to. When I heard the Baltimore Consort's "Ding Dong Merrily", it felt just right. Of course, once I had a good tune, the tune started to modify the dance quite a bit too.=20 Any comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc. are much appreciated. Thanks for your input, Don TRIP TO WOODSTOCK (longways duple minor, proper) Tune: Ding Dong Merrily ('Branle l'officiel' from Thoinot Arbeau, Orchesographie, 1589) Recording by The Baltimore Consort http://sunday.mpr.org/features/9612_baltimore/ A1: (joining hands with neighbor along lines) =B7 ALL BALANCE AWAY(from neighbor)& TOGETHER=20 (moving forward toward partners) =B7 TURN SINGLE AWAY FROM NEIGHBOR (cloverleaf) =B7 All SET RIGHT & LEFT TO CORNER =B7 ALL FALL BACK TO PLACE B1: =B7 1st COUPLE CAST DOWN THE OUTSIDE TO 2nd POSITION, 2s move up =B7 1st COUPLE 1/2 FIGURE 8 UP THROUGH THE 2nd COUPLE ABOVE =B7 1st COUPLE 1/2 GYPSEY (ending proper & progressed) B2: (1s joining hands with 2s along lines) =B7 2s GATE 1s UP THE MIDDLE, THEN DOWN THE OUTSIDE (1s joining hands with new neighbor along lines) =B7 NEW 2s GATE 1s DOWN THE MIDDLE, UP THE OUTSIDE TO PLACE (neighbors keep holding hands for A1) Don Bell 7/25/98 (Written in memory of my roundabout trip to my first Woodstock English Country dance. I would also like to acknowledge dancers who helped me write this dance - the Woodstock English Country dancers, local English Country Dancers and my wife, Diane.) =20 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:06:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 03:06:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Sheet Music for Arbeau's "Ding Dong Merrily" To: Don Bell CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Don Bell wrote: > Folks -- >=20 > I'm looking for a sheet music source for the popular Christmas tune, "Din= g > Dong Merrily". The orginal tune was 'Branle l'officiel' from Thoinot > Arbeau's 16th century French dance treatise Orchesographie (1589). It's t= o > go with a dance I've written called "Trip to Woodstock". Hopefully, the > tune hasn't already been used by someone for an English dance.) It must b= e > in many Christmas carol collections. However, cruising the web I've only > located the most expensive edition (CHRISTMAS QUARTETS =B7 10 Christmas > Carols arranged for String Quartet by Barrie Carson Turner=B7 ST12502 sco= re > and parts - $24.95). You can find the tune in Dover's modern edition of Orchesographie, which should be readily available (ed. & with notes by Julia Sutton), or in a volume of the "Carols for Christmas" series edited by David Willcocks - I think the latter is published by Oxford University Press. Both books are reasonably priced.=20 Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:46:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:25:18 -0700 From: "Gary D. Shapiro" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Sheet Music for Sir Roger de Coverly To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I, on the other hand, am looking for sheet music for Sir Roger de Coverly. Any help, especially if sent yesterday (anyone in Hawaii?), is appreciated. -- Gary D. Shapiro: ECD in Santa Barbara: ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 01:36:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 01:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Sheet Music for Sir Roger de Coverly To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01J09KMMCCKI8WXAQ7-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gary -- The music is notated in Michael Raven's 1000 English Country Dance Tunes, available through CDSS, and full of odd and interesting stuff. I can't seem to find my copy right now, and of course it might be too late. Community Dance Manual gives "Turkey in the Straw" for the Virginia Reel, which is nearly the same dance. James Langdell located a late-1700s arrangement of Roger de Coverly, but he's out of town. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:03:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 10:01:19 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Fried for Fall in PA To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199808061003_MC2-5548-3C2C-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi all - we failed to put a registration deadline on the flier and on notices... This is everyone's invitation to join us for the Fried for Fall on September 11 - 13, 1998. A weekend of dances with Fried de Metz Herman and A Joyful Noise (Barbara Greenberg, Dan Beerbohm and Kathy Talvitie) in a conference center just west of Philadelphia. Friday dinner to Sunday afternoon, housing, meals, use of all outdoor facilities and a beautiful dance hall with a sprung wooden floor await all comers. A check for $ 145 and a business size SASE, arriving here no later than 8/15/98 holds your place. They should be sent to my husband, Raymond P. Tackett 434 E. Woodlawn Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19144-1333 (215) 844-2474 email 76416.276-AT- compuserve.com As mentioned before, this is an attempt to bring the successful Fried for All, an April or May weekend in Lenox, MA, to within practical reach for Mid-Atlantic dancers. Please, if you know of dancers who might be interested to come, give them this information! Hopefully, Hanny Budnick ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:40:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:39:13 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dawn Culbertson and everyone, Please note that Arbeau used the Bouffons tune, which is different from the standard mattachins tune found in many sources. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:40:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:39:13 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dawn Culbertson and everyone, Please note that Arbeau used the Bouffons tune, which is different from the standard mattachins tune found in many sources. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:51:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:51:07 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: (Fwd from Michael Barraclough) C# vs. EFDS To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Just a note--Cecil Sharp's "belief" that 'Shaw's siding' was right should be clarified. Indeed, Sharp reports (I know, but I've lost my reference) that years after he invented his siding he saw some 18th-c. sources showing the side-by-side type. He was right, that's where it can be found by anyone who looks. He also tells of teaching it to his group, who didn't like it and would't accept it. 'Shaw's siding' is of course a misnomer. When I spoke to Shaw about it he told me had looked at the 18th-c. sources. There it is, for anyone to see. If done as a flirtatious movement it is lovely; it should be called 'Old Siding,' and Sharp's, if still used, should be 'New siding.' Julia Sutton On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > From: Michael Barraclough > Subject: C# v EFDS > > > Daniel Walkowitz wrote: > > > > Ah, to reinvent the wheel. Good olde Cecil fought long, hard (and a > > bit ungentlemanly), especially against Mary Neal, to sustain such a > > certificate system with him as the high priest. They did, though, > > have somewhat different notions of what constituted a 'proper' dance > > style. Cecil won, though it is worth noting that Duncan Kennedy in > > his history of EFDSS claims he and his 'mates' (a majority of whom > > were undoubtedly female) came by the mid-thirties to 'recognize' that > > Neal was 'right'. > > Very interesting. This puts more "meat" on some "bones" that I was > vaguely aware of. I think it is important to distinguish between C# the > person and EFDS (as it was then) the organisation. In a lecture to a > group of school teachers in 1923 C# was bemoaning the fact that he had > decided that his original views on siding were almost certainly wrong > but that the EFDS was unprepared to change. (In fact there is clear > evidence from his lecture notes that he believed that what is now often > called Shaw siding or siding into line was the correct way to interpreet > the figure.) This is a clear example of organisational imperatives > creating stagnation. By then all the classes, syllabi (buses if you > prefer) and trained teachers were in place and to change what was to be > taught was more trouble than it was worth. A change could also be seen > to question the validity of what was being taught. He may have been the > high priest but in the end I suspect more of a president as opposed to a > chief executive. > > Michael Barraclough > /NOSIG > > > =============================================================================== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 > Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 > =============================================================================== > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:57:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:56:57 -0700 From: Bruce Hamilton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: What publication is this? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: hamilton-AT- hplbh.hpl.hp.com Message-ID: <199808062356.AA120977817-AT- hplbh.hpl.hp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm looking for the pedigree of two publications. Both are for a dance called "The Lacemaker" and its tune, "The Bukinghamshire Thumper." The dance and tune are both credited to Geoffrey Mendham. One looks like a hand-made leaflet, printed on two sides, which says that the dance was first published by the EFDSS in English Dance & Song in 1974. Does anyone know if this leaflet was part of a larger publication? Is it still sold? The other is a single page, typeset, with an illustration in the upper left corner, and a page number 143 in the bottom center. I think the original was about 8" x 10". This is obviously part of a larger publication. Does anyone know what it was? Does anyone know if Geoffrey Mendham is still alive, and if so how to get in touch with him? Thanks very much. Bruce Hamilton Hewlett-Packard Laboratories MS-4AD Phone 650-857-2818 PO Box 10150, Palo Alto, CA 94303-0889 Fax 650-852-8092 bruce_hamilton-AT- hpl.hp.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:54:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:54:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: (Fwd from Michael Barraclough) C# vs. EFDS To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, julia s sutton wrote: > Just a note--Cecil Sharp's "belief" that 'Shaw's siding' was right should > be clarified. Indeed, Sharp reports (I know, but I've lost my reference) > that years after he invented his siding he saw some 18th-c. sources > showing the side-by-side type. He was right, that's where it can be > found by anyone who looks. He also tells of teaching it to his group, who > didn't like it and would't accept it. Why didn't they like it? I think it's a lovely move, and have never understood why it isn't used more. As you point out, the 18th century sources plainly indicate side-by-side (which probably made more sense then, considering the full skirts worn at the time). Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:44:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 13:41:35 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35CAF5FF.9AF923C3-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia Sutton Wrote: > 'Shaw's siding' is of course a misnomer. When I spoke to Shaw about > it he told me had looked at the 18th-c. sources. There it is, for > anyone to see. If done as a flirtatious movement it is lovely; it > should be called 'Old Siding,' and Sharp's, if still used, should be > 'New siding.' Dawn Cuthbertson wrote: > Why didn't they like it? I think it's a lovely move, and have never > understood why it isn't used more. As you point out, the 18th century > sources plainly indicate side-by-side (which probably made more sense > then, considering the full skirts worn at the time). Julia actually provides the reason for why it is called "Shaw Siding" in suggesting "Old Siding" and "New Siding"! It is an inescapable fact of life that when something different comes along a label has to be invented for the new to distinguish it from the old. Over time the label loses its importance and/or its meaning. A good example of this is "Rock and Roll", a label invented to DISTINGUISH that type of dance from "Ballroom" dance. Now 30/40 years later Rock & Roll is very much PART OF Ballroom dancing. The term "Shaw Siding" arose because it was necessary for callers/dance teachers to distinguish between the movement called Siding as taught by Cecil Sharp/EFDSS and the movement which Pat Shaw introduced to the folk dance world. There has never been any suggestion that the interpretation of the movement as taught by Pat Shaw was original, the label was merely shorthand for the movement. I personally use/prefer the term "Side-by-Side" or "Into-line Siding" as this explains what is wanted. However, in the English folk dance world evoking the "god" Shaw helps overcome resistance to change. It should also be noted that the two movements continue to exist along side each other. Only fools like myself try to encourage use of "Side-by-Side" in established favourites such as Newcastle and Nonesuch. Other wiser people employ "Sharp Siding" in previously well-known dances and "Shaw Siding" in less well-known or unknown dances. I should also add that Pat Shaw neither invented nor used the term. Widespread use of the term is much more recent and the need for it is a good indicator of the growing use of this movement. I must add that whilst the evidence for "Into-line Siding" is compelling it is not absolute. Orseographic evidence means that we can be reasonably sure about that style of siding in the French Court late C17/early C18. Anywhere/time else requires some speculation. Julia's suggestion of "Old" and "New" also causes me some difficulty. From a historical perspective (hers) Shaw Siding is old and Sharp siding is new (Q1 C20) however for the users of the terminogy (English folk dancers) Sharp is old and Shaw is new. My own theory as to why the English folk dancers have not taken to Pat Shaw's interpretation of siding is probably libelous. If you measure standard of dancing in terms of body control and moving to the music then English folk dancers are very poor dancers when compared with the majority of their American counterparts (in England good dancing seems to be measured by being able to follow complicated floor patterns). This being the case, the substitution of a movement which only travels a short distance for one which travels much further (in the same time) causes physical discomfort and/or an early completion of the movement. Personally, I find the into-line interpretation a very "sexy" movement and I teach it with an inclination of the upper part of the body between partners as they come into-line, together with significant eye contact. The demographic composition of the groups who perform this type of dance in England and America is quite different (compared to EDC in the US, folk dance clubs in England, especially those doing a lot of "Playford" are predominantly middle age or elderly and with a high percentage of females). Consequently, the idea of flirting within the dance is a difficult concept. Michael Barraclough [michael.barraclough-AT- tgis.co.uk] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:13:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:13:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808071513.KAA07805-AT- staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT With respect to the debate over which type of siding to use our local group, the Central Illinois English Country Dancers, is split. I tend to favor the Shaw/Old/into-a-line siding and my partner in leading the group, Jane Hobgood, who got her training in the 40's and 50's tends toward the Sharp/New/curvy variety. My tendency is to use the side-by-side siding by default and only use the other when it either seems to fit the dance better or is specifically called for (say in a modern dance composition). In general this means curvy siding for curvy dances and linear siding for linear dances. However I do prefer shoulder siding in Newcastle. Since I've only been doing ECD for 5 years or so I didn't have any preconceived notions and the shoulder siding seemed to generally fit the dances better. The result of this is that our group does both types in an approximately equal number of dances (though not at the same time of course) and there doesn't seem to be any problem switching back and forth between them. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Home page URL: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~j-sivier | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:53:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:53:12 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: (Fwd from Michael Barraclough) C# vs. EFDS To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dawn C. and everyone, The term 'side-by-side' reeks of the impersonal, technological 20th century! It is really 'shoulder-to-shoulder,' a term which suggests that human beings are involved! I'm happy with that, if you don't like 'Old and New'. What is good about it, aside from the time it gives to flirt, is that it is perfectly symmetrical in terms of the floor path; Sharp's is not. Michael Barraclough, I appreciate all the inside information on the 20th-c. revival of ECD. The fact that mostly the middle-aged and older do Playford in England today is probably due to the unendurably slow tempos adopted by the musicians (seen and heard first hand). White notes in the 17th century were not, of course, an indication of a slow tempo. Old dances were not designed for old people, I always say, but for the young of their day. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:50:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:50:05 -0500 (EST) From: morganj-AT- iupui.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Michael Barraclough wrote that in England, the acceptance of "Shaw siding" was limited because it was seen as more flirtatious and required more dance ability. My experience in the US was just the opposite; I remember CDSS teachers spending a lot of time on the flirtatious aspects of "Sharp siding", and I've always found some dexterity necessary to execute the figure with style. In contrast to Michael's description of his teaching of "Shaw siding", I remember it being taught poorly here, with little emphasis on flirting or style. So it came to be seen as a rather wooden alternative to "Sharp siding" for those who wanted to be historically accurate or who were hampered by 18th costumes. Jim Morgan morganj-AT- iupui.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:15:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:14:48 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I too find the "Shaw siding" - call it what you will - more flirtatious, more natural, and in general more satisfying than the more awkward, artificial- feeling Sharp siding. It works in most, if not all, places where the instructions call for siding. Newcastle may be an exception, but it certainly makes more sense in Nonesuch to do Shaw siding, and, to me, the Worrell version (published in Country Dance and Song in 1988 - September, I think) works so much better than the Sharp version. And try Shaw siding in Queen's Jig: it produces nice diagonal lines. Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 18:29:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:28 +0100 From: graham-AT- gcknight.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Re: Trip to Woodstock To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There is also a 4 couple square written by Ellen Taylor in 1982 from her collection of English Country Dances. Graham Knight ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 11:11:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:09:54 -0700 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Subject: Shaw Siding To: ECD List Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35CE1022.4CA4-AT- erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In about seven postings so far on this thread, Shaw siding has been called: 1) into-a-line siding 2) old siding 3) linear siding 4) side-by-side siding 5) into-line siding 6) shoulder siding and, of course 7) Shaw siding. Cecil Sharp's interpretation has attracted a far less varied nomenclature: 1) new siding 2) curvy siding and 3) Sharp siding, although, before Pat Shaw did his research, I presume it was called, more simply, just plain 4) siding. I have also heard it called 5) swirl siding and 6) banana siding. There may be more. Please, enough already! If the context is historical development, old and new may be meaningful, but they are no more descriptive than Sharp and Shaw. As a new dancer four years ago, I could never figure out which one Shaw siding was (or Sharp); I had enough difficulty trying to focus on the pattern without delving into historical issues that dance leaders would occasionally advert to. The fact both names start with the same three letters made trying to construct a mnemonic to aid me more confusing. "Arming" is a nice term because, in a word, you know what to do. To my ears, "banana siding" has the same immediate effect. The problem is its inelegance, lack of dignity, perhaps even incipient lese majeste`. So I vote for "Swirl siding," which describes the motion of the move. The other is a little harder. Into-a-line and linear emphasize the geometricity of how the move looks in the dance pattern; I agree with Jim Morgan that this tends to be the emphasis in the teaching/calling, that there is little emphasis on flirting and style and that it seems wooden. Mostly the emphasis is on keeping your lines straight as you come into the lines, but the dancers aren't generally flirting (unless they're acting goofy), and all too often they're not even *dancing*; they're bored, trying to take short enough steps to get into straight lines. Side-by-side and shoulder-to-shoulder sound to my ears a little more like something a dancer might do, as opposed to geometric points on a two dimensional surface. However, neither of them convey any sense of the movement described by Michael Barraclough, much less any hint of flirtatiousness. I do hope some of those of you who are dance leaders will at least experiment with Michael's idea -- it sounds like a wonderful way to liven up what is often a dead spot in many dances. And until someone can come up with a good word for that particular movement, I suggest that "shoulder siding" is an immediately understandable term that beats out side-by-side siding because the latter term is too repetitive and uses an additional syllable that is not at all needed. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 11:57:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 11:48:46 -0700 From: WPOB Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dancing master Elias Howe To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01bdc3c6$56a162c0$269fb8cd-AT- uspppWPOB> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Can anyone help with information about an English dancing master Elias Howe (19th c. I believe) or a dance called "Cazorty"? Thanks very much, Pat O'Brien ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 17:31:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 20:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: English Country Dance List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To all speculating about the origins of Playford tunes: In the 16th and 17th centuries there was a large body of music--that is, tunes and basses--that migrated freely around the Western world. Finding concordances with Playford in many sources doesn't prove that the origins of the music have been located. Except in a few instances, we have no evidence of 'origins' for most of this music. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 17:31:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 20:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: English Country Dance List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To all speculating about the origins of Playford tunes: In the 16th and 17th centuries there was a large body of music--that is, tunes and basses--that migrated freely around the Western world. Finding concordances with Playford in many sources doesn't prove that the origins of the music have been located. Except in a few instances, we have no evidence of 'origins' for most of this music. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 17:44:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 20:43:46 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For thorough information on popular tunes in Playford see Simpson and Ward. Lots of study has been done on the tunes, so noone needs to start from the beginning. Julia Sutton On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Philippe Callens wrote: > The pre-1651 origins of the material in the English Dancing Master > (1651) is an interesting subject, one that I feel deserves more > research. When John Playford published his EDM, the contents was the > result of ongoing evolution that had started about a hundred years > earlier. Both native English elements and influences from abroad > (especially Italian) can be noticed. > Who on this list can add to this? > > For your information, the tune for Parson's Farewell was also published > in the Netherlands: Amsterdam 1621 and Haarlem 1626. Dean-Smith's > facsimile is still a valuable source for this sort of information as is > "The Playford Ball". There you can find for example that (part of) the > tunes for Grimstock, Broom the bonny broom, Dargason and Gathering > Peascods have older origins. > > I'd like to add an example of a Playford tune that has a continental > origin, i.e. the tune for the dance Mundesse, also in the first edition. > Mundesse is really Mon desir (basse dance), a dance tune written and > published by Tielman Susato in Antwerp in his "Danserye" in 1551, that's > exactly a hundred years before its use in the EDM. In those hundred > years, several rhythmic and melodic changes have occured, but the tune > is still very recognizable. > This has been pointed out to me by Francois Van Laecke, a Belgian > musician, dancer and school teacher. > > Philippe Callens > Antwerp, Belgium > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 17:44:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 20:43:46 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For thorough information on popular tunes in Playford see Simpson and Ward. Lots of study has been done on the tunes, so noone needs to start from the beginning. Julia Sutton On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Philippe Callens wrote: > The pre-1651 origins of the material in the English Dancing Master > (1651) is an interesting subject, one that I feel deserves more > research. When John Playford published his EDM, the contents was the > result of ongoing evolution that had started about a hundred years > earlier. Both native English elements and influences from abroad > (especially Italian) can be noticed. > Who on this list can add to this? > > For your information, the tune for Parson's Farewell was also published > in the Netherlands: Amsterdam 1621 and Haarlem 1626. Dean-Smith's > facsimile is still a valuable source for this sort of information as is > "The Playford Ball". There you can find for example that (part of) the > tunes for Grimstock, Broom the bonny broom, Dargason and Gathering > Peascods have older origins. > > I'd like to add an example of a Playford tune that has a continental > origin, i.e. the tune for the dance Mundesse, also in the first edition. > Mundesse is really Mon desir (basse dance), a dance tune written and > published by Tielman Susato in Antwerp in his "Danserye" in 1551, that's > exactly a hundred years before its use in the EDM. In those hundred > years, several rhythmic and melodic changes have occured, but the tune > is still very recognizable. > This has been pointed out to me by Francois Van Laecke, a Belgian > musician, dancer and school teacher. > > Philippe Callens > Antwerp, Belgium > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:08:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:08:05 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Barbara Ruth, It is now generally accepted that 'country dance,' as represented by Playford, had little if any relationship to what was danced by country folk. The dances in Playford were obtained from dancing masters he knew (e.g. Mr. Isaac's Maggot--Isaac was a famous dancer and dancing master). We know quite a few of the names in England around 1650, we know where Playford published, with whom he conversed (e.g. Pepys). We know quite a lot. But there's still a lot of speculation as to the meaning of 'country dance'--dances done in country houses? dances done in the country of England? dances in the pastoral tradition? The chances are high that Playford expected his book to go to members of the gentry (who would have had dancing lessons since childhood). Julia Sutton On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Barbara Ruth wrote: > ---Philippe Callens wrote: > > > > The pre-1651 origins of the material in the English Dancing Master > > (1651) is an interesting subject, one that I feel deserves more > > research. When John Playford published his EDM, the contents was the > > result of ongoing evolution that had started about a hundred years > > earlier. Both native English elements and influences from abroad > > (especially Italian) can be noticed. > > Who on this list can add to this? > > This raises a question that I have been wondering about for sometime > (at least since last Thursday, when I was interviewed for a local > college radio station about our ECD series in Branford, CT and found > myself trying to explain the origins of English Country dancing). > Where did Playford get his material for the _English Dancing Master_? > I don't mean how did the dances themselves originate. I've seen > enough of that discussion to have some idea both of the answers and > the controversy on the subject. I want to know how Playford himself > found the dances for his book. According to the one book I've read on > the subject, _A Time to Dance_, prior to Playford the way country > dances were done was for the local fiddler to simply string together a > series of figures to whatever tune he was playing (remarkably like the > "origins of square dancing" according to the same book), and that > Playford was the first person to attach particular dances to specific > tunes, starting a fad that lasted the next two centuries. I find that > scenario suspect (and not only because the book is otherwise obviously > out of date - it still maintains that Morris dancing is the remnant of > an archetypal, preChristian, sacred ritual of which all later dance > forms are derivations). > So where did John Playford find the dances he published? Did he go > out and collect them in the field, a la C. Sharp? Was he a country > boy himself and learned them as he grew up? Or, contrary to the myth, > were they already being done in London, at hand, so to speak, and he > was simply the first person to have the brillaint idea of writing a > guide to what was already in style? (Sort of the 1650's version of > being the first one to think of writing a guide to the internet). > Anybody got educated answers, or can point me to publications on the > subject a little more up-to-date (and available to non-specialists)? > Thanks for any info. > > Barbara Ruth > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:12:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric and others, There is strong evidence of some of the dances in Playford 1651 going back into the 16th century. He seems to have been the first to publish them. May I suggest, again, that before speculation goes too wild, reference to the International Encyclopedia of Dance (out since Feb.), published by OUP America, might be in order? Julia sutton On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Eric Arnold wrote: > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Barbara Ruth wrote: > > > ---Philippe Callens wrote: > > > > > > The pre-1651 origins of the material in the English Dancing Master > > > (1651) is an interesting subject, one that I feel deserves more > > > research. When John Playford published his EDM, the contents was the > > > result of ongoing evolution that had started about a hundred years > > > earlier. Both native English elements and influences from abroad > > > (especially Italian) can be noticed. > > > Who on this list can add to this? > > This is a subject that has intrigued me, too. Some of Barbara Ruth's > comments: > > . . . > > > Where did Playford get his material for the _English Dancing Master_? > > I don't mean how did the dances themselves originate. I've seen > > enough of that discussion to have some idea both of the answers and > > the controversy on the subject. I want to know how Playford himself > > found the dances for his book. According to the one book I've read on > > the subject, _A Time to Dance_, . . . [details snipped out] > I find that > > scenario suspect . . . > > I share Barbara's suspicion here. Playford is clearly describing a > well-developed activity -- the dances are sophisticated, they share common > elements in very diverse ways, which suggests to me that this is an > activity which had been going on for some time, evolving rather slowly > into the form that Playford found it in when he published his first book > in 1651. We might assume that the changes that had occurred before 1651 > were similar to those that occurred just after, say from 1651 to 1670 or > so. I don't recall evidence from Playford's first volume that he was > describing something drastically new. What is there seems to me to be > consistent with the idea that he has a new audience rather than new > material -- he has found the opportunity is ripe to sell dance books to > the new holders of power, with the Commonwealth having been established > just two years before. If these dances evolved primarily at the court, > where dancing lessons were part of one's education, there might not have > been much demand for such books, and it would not have been worth the > effort to publish them -- and Playford's books definitely give the > impression that he (and later, others) were in it for the profit). > Publishing capabilities were changing rapidly, too -- compare the quality > of the type fonts through the various editions -- so it would be getting > easier and easier to produce something of this sort as the technology > evolved, and hence more profitable. > > > So where did John Playford find the > dances he published? Did he > go > out and collect them in the field, a la C. Sharp? Was he a country > > boy himself and learned them as he grew up? Or, contrary to the myth, > > were they already being done in London, at hand, so to speak, and he > > was simply the first person to have the brillaint idea of writing a > > guide to what was already in style? > > I find this last idea most believable, except that I think he took > advantage of the changing political situation as well, which perhaps > created rather suddenly a real market for such books. > > There is considerable evidence suggesting that the dance forms reflect the > social situation in which they were done, producing the gradual evolution > from many set dances, suitable for rather small, intimate groups as might > be found in court settings, to the longways set for as many as will, which > came to dominate almost(?) exclusively by about 1700. There seems to be > much comment on the political and social scene within the dances > themselves, so it doesn't seem far-fetched to view them as a mirror, if a > coloured one, of social custom of the time. But the period from 1650 to > 1700 is a period of very drastic political change and upheval, and I think > the dances reflect this quite clearly. It does not take a drastic stretch > of the imagination, I feel, to believe that the dances described by > Playford in 1651 had gradually evolved at the English court and perhaps > elsewhere from Elizabeth's time, and the presence of some names in the > Playford 1st edition which had appeared earlier (e.g. Sellinger's Round, > Mundesse, etc.) fits in with this view very readily, even if it cannot > prove that there was continuity in more than the name. > > . . . > > > Anybody got educated answers, or can point me to publications on the > > subject a little more up-to-date (and available to non-specialists)? > > Maybe not an educated answer, but perhaps at least a somewhat educated > guess. It's a fascinating subject, and it would be wonderful to discover > more about this period. One wonders how many hand-written dance books > might have been lost when the Roundheads burnt so many Royalist houses? > Perhaps John Playford might even have gotten his hands on one of these... > > Eric Arnold > Ann Arbor > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:12:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric and others, There is strong evidence of some of the dances in Playford 1651 going back into the 16th century. He seems to have been the first to publish them. May I suggest, again, that before speculation goes too wild, reference to the International Encyclopedia of Dance (out since Feb.), published by OUP America, might be in order? Julia sutton On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Eric Arnold wrote: > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Barbara Ruth wrote: > > > ---Philippe Callens wrote: > > > > > > The pre-1651 origins of the material in the English Dancing Master > > > (1651) is an interesting subject, one that I feel deserves more > > > research. When John Playford published his EDM, the contents was the > > > result of ongoing evolution that had started about a hundred years > > > earlier. Both native English elements and influences from abroad > > > (especially Italian) can be noticed. > > > Who on this list can add to this? > > This is a subject that has intrigued me, too. Some of Barbara Ruth's > comments: > > . . . > > > Where did Playford get his material for the _English Dancing Master_? > > I don't mean how did the dances themselves originate. I've seen > > enough of that discussion to have some idea both of the answers and > > the controversy on the subject. I want to know how Playford himself > > found the dances for his book. According to the one book I've read on > > the subject, _A Time to Dance_, . . . [details snipped out] > I find that > > scenario suspect . . . > > I share Barbara's suspicion here. Playford is clearly describing a > well-developed activity -- the dances are sophisticated, they share common > elements in very diverse ways, which suggests to me that this is an > activity which had been going on for some time, evolving rather slowly > into the form that Playford found it in when he published his first book > in 1651. We might assume that the changes that had occurred before 1651 > were similar to those that occurred just after, say from 1651 to 1670 or > so. I don't recall evidence from Playford's first volume that he was > describing something drastically new. What is there seems to me to be > consistent with the idea that he has a new audience rather than new > material -- he has found the opportunity is ripe to sell dance books to > the new holders of power, with the Commonwealth having been established > just two years before. If these dances evolved primarily at the court, > where dancing lessons were part of one's education, there might not have > been much demand for such books, and it would not have been worth the > effort to publish them -- and Playford's books definitely give the > impression that he (and later, others) were in it for the profit). > Publishing capabilities were changing rapidly, too -- compare the quality > of the type fonts through the various editions -- so it would be getting > easier and easier to produce something of this sort as the technology > evolved, and hence more profitable. > > > So where did John Playford find the > dances he published? Did he > go > out and collect them in the field, a la C. Sharp? Was he a country > > boy himself and learned them as he grew up? Or, contrary to the myth, > > were they already being done in London, at hand, so to speak, and he > > was simply the first person to have the brillaint idea of writing a > > guide to what was already in style? > > I find this last idea most believable, except that I think he took > advantage of the changing political situation as well, which perhaps > created rather suddenly a real market for such books. > > There is considerable evidence suggesting that the dance forms reflect the > social situation in which they were done, producing the gradual evolution > from many set dances, suitable for rather small, intimate groups as might > be found in court settings, to the longways set for as many as will, which > came to dominate almost(?) exclusively by about 1700. There seems to be > much comment on the political and social scene within the dances > themselves, so it doesn't seem far-fetched to view them as a mirror, if a > coloured one, of social custom of the time. But the period from 1650 to > 1700 is a period of very drastic political change and upheval, and I think > the dances reflect this quite clearly. It does not take a drastic stretch > of the imagination, I feel, to believe that the dances described by > Playford in 1651 had gradually evolved at the English court and perhaps > elsewhere from Elizabeth's time, and the presence of some names in the > Playford 1st edition which had appeared earlier (e.g. Sellinger's Round, > Mundesse, etc.) fits in with this view very readily, even if it cannot > prove that there was continuity in more than the name. > > . . . > > > Anybody got educated answers, or can point me to publications on the > > subject a little more up-to-date (and available to non-specialists)? > > Maybe not an educated answer, but perhaps at least a somewhat educated > guess. It's a fascinating subject, and it would be wonderful to discover > more about this period. One wonders how many hand-written dance books > might have been lost when the Roundheads burnt so many Royalist houses? > Perhaps John Playford might even have gotten his hands on one of these... > > Eric Arnold > Ann Arbor > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:19:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:18:51 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Ian Engle Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary, I suspect you're referring to Margaret Dean Smith's facsimile edition of the first printed collection of country dances. It's excellent, but remember that years have passed since her publication, and we now know lots more about the music, and a little more about the dances. Julia Sutton On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Mary Railing wrote: > I know there was an edition of Playford's _The English Dancing Master_ > that had extensive notes about the music, with references to related tunes > going back to the 1500's. I don't have the reference, but maybe one of > the librarians on the list could find it. Ian Engle showed it to me some > years ago. > > --Mary Railing > mrailing-AT- kiva.net > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:19:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:18:51 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Origins of Playford Tunes (and Dances) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Ian Engle Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary, I suspect you're referring to Margaret Dean Smith's facsimile edition of the first printed collection of country dances. It's excellent, but remember that years have passed since her publication, and we now know lots more about the music, and a little more about the dances. Julia Sutton On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Mary Railing wrote: > I know there was an edition of Playford's _The English Dancing Master_ > that had extensive notes about the music, with references to related tunes > going back to the 1500's. I don't have the reference, but maybe one of > the librarians on the list could find it. Ian Engle showed it to me some > years ago. > > --Mary Railing > mrailing-AT- kiva.net > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 18:38:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:38:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: (Fwd from Michael Barraclough) C# vs. EFDS To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, julia s sutton wrote: > The term 'side-by-side' reeks of the impersonal, technological 20th > century! It is really 'shoulder-to-shoulder,' a term which suggests that > human beings are involved! I'm happy with that, if you don't like 'Old and > New'. What is good about it, aside from the time it gives to flirt, is > that it is perfectly symmetrical in terms of the floor path; Sharp's is > not. And weren't floor patterns very important in dances of this period? Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:09:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:08:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT All this about siding reminds me of an English dance week skit, ca.1990, which featured "safe siding" -- as I recall the dancers wore plastic garbage bags over their heads and upper bodies. This being a sly reference to the fact that the camp store was selling for the first time? or stating for the first time that it sold? condoms. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:56:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:54:49 -0700 From: Stephanie Smith Subject: Documenting current ECD leaders, etc. To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35CFB279.6ADC-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <19980518.190505.3670.7.solweber-AT- juno.com> I'd like to revisit Sol Weber's remarks from May (see below) and suggest that those on the list who are attending either English Week or English-American Week at Pinewoods this year could discuss the possibilities and logistics to set something in motion. I will be attending both weeks, and would love to brainstorm about this. I think it is really important to document what is going on now in the English country dance scene in North America, and in particular to document the older generation of leaders. Being a folklorist into documenting things, I need no persuasion here. It seems to me that if a cogent project proposal or proposals could be put together, it would be possible to get grant funding to support videotaping efforts and some valuable oral history recordings. Any takers? Any developments could be shared with the list for further input and ideas. Stephanie Smith Bethesda, MD sol weber wrote: > > I can't imagine a world without the great dances of Pat Shaw, and one > of these days I'd love to see a film or video about him (and SHOWING > him). Hopefully there are such films, or perhaps the bits and pieces for > assembling them. > > Advancing technology has of course made such projects more manageable, > and how nice it would be if various folks in the best position to do so > could initiate projects to immortalize, on film or video, our premiere > English Dance creators while they're still with us -- Fried Herman, Colin > Hume, Gary Roodman, and so many others. (Please forgive any omissions.) > There could be commentary and footage ABOUT each plus words of wisdom > from their > own lips, interspersed with their dances (teaching demos and/or scenes > from various events). > > Learning tapes for older dances would be useful as well. Since there > are often regional differences -- proper vs. improper, casting vs. > crossovers, duple vs. triple minor versions, etc -- the different customs > should be described or actually shown (rather than endlessly argued > about). > > +++Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" > 25-14 37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:28:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:31:22 +0600 From: Christine Robb Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199808110028.UAA08684-AT- smtp.interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Michael J. O'Connor wrote: > "Arming" is a nice term because, in a word, you know what to do. Although then you get into whether to grip the elbow or hook elbows. Anyone know the historical precedents for each? Christine cedar-AT- interlog.com http://www.interlog.com/~cedar ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:34:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:34:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01J0G388EDSI8WWAI5-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Christine wrote: > On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Michael J. O'Connor wrote: >> "Arming" is a nice term because, in a word, you know what to do. >Although then you get into whether to grip the elbow or hook elbows. >Anyone know the historical precedents for each? As I understand it, there are historical precedents for each. I believe Christine Helwig says the 17th century style would be forearms parallel, perhaps through logistical difficulties in getting close enough to hook elbows in dresses with panniers. I think you'd find elbow-hooking in village dances as actually viewed by Sharp. (And if you're stripping the willow, I think it's easier and quicker to hook elbows than to do finicky finding the forearm and getting parallel to it.) But since the dances work the same way, whichever grip you use, this doesn't take as much legislation as siding. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:45:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:45:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Monterey, and Arcata Revisited To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01J0G20GW88I8WZ1JL-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What I Learned From the Behaviorial Ecologists at Asilomar ========================================================== (1) My notion of "easy" was out of kilter, at least with what's appropriate for hundreds of mostly non-experienced conventioneers in a room with plenty of beer and several hundred more non-dancing people standing around talking loudly. Bonnets So Blue is too hard. (You know, right-hand star, left hands back, ones gallop down the center and back to progressed place, swing and change (once round, not actually changing).) It's not too wearing, but figuring out that whole thing about whether you're a first couple or a second couple ("Ones and Twos are meaningless! Use sensible words like 'actives' and 'inactives'", volunteered one of the few behavioral ecologists who'd ever been contradancing. He'd had been one of the people contributing to the problem by insisting on crossing over with his partner at the end of the set), and how long to wait out before starting up again; that stuff is just too hard. My two lovely assistants wore themselves out running up and down the lines fixing problems; I was tethered to the stage by a mike cable, and it was clear that if I stopped calling, bad things would happen. [In fact, Colin Hume told me last month that the only longways dance he'd ever consider calling for this kind of gig is "Nottingham Swing"; now I know he's right. When I've called for 300 people before, something like 80 of them had some previous country dance exposure; it makes a huge difference.] (2) Wireless mics. Don't do this kind of gig without a wireless mic. [We'd planned to have a wireless mic, and it didn't work out. It turns out that it wouldn't have made a difference, because the sound equipment we'd brought was inadequate for so huge a room with so many people talking so loudly, and I had to use the house PA for voice -- the music was louder and that meant using their mic with the cable on it, but this made demonstrations incredibly difficult.] Other than that, most of the program worked well: Grand March, Lucky 7 mixer, Cumberland Squares, La Russe were all fine; Right and Left Polka was okay except for the Rights and Lefts (which I'm changing into a right-hand star, left-hands back in future); Circle Waltz worked fine, but Come Let's Be Merry was a slog, and Bonnets So Blue was a disaster. I won't make that mistake again. Overall, C+ or B-. Dancers seemed to have fun, but there was too much talking and people were challenged a bit more than they wanted to be in those conditions. That was August 1. August 8 I returned to Arcata for another English night at the contra dance. We had an afternoon barn dance workshop, with interesting demographics. A show of hands revealed that of sixteen people there, four had been to the contra, four had been to the international dance, and the others had just thought they'd check it out. The workshop went well. Dorset Four-Hand Reel, La Russe, Cumberland Square 8, Circle Waltz, Galopede, Roxburgh Castle, Nottingham Swing. (We also did Apley House, not really a barn dance; this turned out to be unexpectedly difficult.) It didn't help that the fiddler's hand went numb repeatedly, which meant some sudden eight and 16 measure stretches of piano boom-chucks and no melody. The evening dance was considerably less of a slog than last time. I was no longer under the mistaken impression that this was a group of sophisticated, experienced contra dancers, so the program looked a lot more like a beginner program. Several teenage couples showed up just after the break, under the impression that there was a swing dance there. I actually talked one of them into trying out the dance, and since we'd just gotten to Cumberland Square 8, they enjoyed it and stayed for the rest of the evening. The last dance was Right and Left Polka with the star substituted for the rights and lefts. That was a big hit. They liked Nottingham Swing a lot, too, and Cumberland Square 8, and seemed enthusiastic about the Dorset Triumph. There was a fair amount of attrition during the evening, though. One of the organizers first suggsted that it was because people were expecting vigorous dancing, and we were doing some things at moderate tempos (because they fell apart at fast tempos). "Nottingham Swing" seemed pretty vigorous. Then she suggested that people were leaving because they were tired, because the organizers let the break go on too long. Another mixed result, but the organizers seemed happy about it, and they say they want me back next year. I'm a little puzzled, but I'll keep on looking for _easy_ dances that can safely go at 120 bpm and still have some non-contra flavor and see how it goes next time. -- Alan A much better balance of dancing to talking than last time. =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:07:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 02:02:54 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35CF983E.6CF2C362-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199808110028.UAA08684-AT- smtp.interlog.com> Christine Robb wrote: > > Although then you get into whether to grip the elbow or hook elbows. > > Anyone know the historical precedents for each? Annoyingly I have lost my notes on where but I once saw a painting which gave what I believe is a a very good clue. As a result I teach arming with each dancer's hand held flat, palm DOWN, under their partner's elbow. You will find this makes an excellent mechanical join between the two dancers and enables the dancers to move as a unit with only a small amount of force from one or other dancer required to initiate movement. Michael Barraclough ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:44:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:43:28 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm very puzzled as to the source of Christine Helwig's statement about 17th-c. arming. Frankly, I've seen no evidence of anything but the elbow hook. Costumes then could take it. If anyone has hrd evidence to the contrary, please tell me what it is. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:58:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:57:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01J0GCJAHX368X2NJX-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia wrote: I'm very puzzled as to the source of Christine Helwig's statement about 17th-c. arming. Frankly, I've seen no evidence of anything but the elbow hook. Costumes then could take it. If anyone has hrd evidence to the contrary, please tell me what it is. This is what I get for writing a citation-free post. Anyway, this is what I recall Christine saying during her dance reconstruction workshop at the Mendocino camp a few years ago; I have no published source, and I don't know where she got it. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:55:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:42:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Easy and lively To: English Dance Maillist Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT No, this isn't the title for a new dance. A year or so ago, the group compiled a list of easy, lively dances suitable for beginners, including some for small sets. Somehow, that got deleted; if someone out there still has that list, could you send it to me? Thanks in advance! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:55:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Monterey, and Arcata Revisited To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > [In fact, Colin Hume told me last month that the only longways dance > he'd ever consider calling for this kind of gig is "Nottingham Swing"; > now I know he's right. When I've called for 300 people before, > something like 80 of them had some previous country dance exposure; it > makes a huge difference.] > I've had similar experiences trying to teach contras to completely naive groups. They could do squares, circle mixers and even Sicilian circles forever, but the two groups moving in opposite directions and the reversal at the end was incredibly intimidating to them. So I bagged it and called other things. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:14:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:13:33 -0400 (EDT) From: JBGrun-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Documenting current ECD leaders, etc. To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <39df515a.35d05f9f-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephanie, I'm encouraged that many of us are having parallel thoughts. = I=0Awould be delighted to be part of a brainstorming session at Pinewoods= (I'll be=0Aat EA Week.) I sent the following to Sol last week: Date: =09Thursday, August 6, 1998 10:36:51 AM From: =09JBGrun Subj: =09Our May 21-22 correspondence To: =09solweber-AT- juno.com Hi Sol! I'd like to continue thinking about your query re documenting Fr= ied,=0A& my response back in May. (I'm forwarding them & Sharon's respons= e as well in=0Acase you've forgotten.) I'd really like to get something t= o happen next June=0Aso I know we have to start working on it soon. I don= 't think I'll have a=0Aproblem with funding, but my biggest concern is fi= nding the exactly right=0Aperson to do the filming=97not to mention the e= diting, but that will come later.=0AShould we organize? The cat will be = at EAD Week. You? Best, Judy Grunberg Date: =09Friday, May 22, 1998 1:20:56 PM From: =09JBGrun Subj: =09Re: permanent record To: =09ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Right on, Sol! We have just concluded the10th Anniversary Fried-for-All= =0AWeekend Workshop at the Lenox (MA) Community Center which, for the 11t= h=0Asuccessive year, has been dedicated to honoring FRIED deMETZ HERMAN &= her=0Adances. Every year since1988 we devotees of Fried have been privil= eged to=0Aexperience her teaching her own dances=97many only recently=97o= r not=0Ayet=97published. I'm sure that the more than 70 experienced Engli= sh dancers that=0Aattended would agree that we need to communicate to the= wider English dance=0Acommunity the extraordinary work of this choreogra= pher. Occasionally Fried=0Awill say "I'm not going to live forever, you k= now," and, in spite of the fact=0Athat her creative energy seems unlimite= d, she undoubtedly feels the pressures=0Aof time. The 12th Annual Fried-f= or-All is set for the weekend of June 11-13=0A1999, at the Lenox Communit= y Center as usual. The musicians, as this year,=0Awill be MGM (Margaret A= nn Martin, Gene Murrow, Mary Lea.) Wouldn't it be=0Aexciting if we could = get the event on video? Preferably in as artful as=0Apossible a manner; n= ot simply as a document, the way one might tape the High=0ASchool graduat= ion. (I would love to hang the camera from the ceiling: one of=0AFried's = new dances, The Severn Bore, is an amazing depiction of the flowing=0Amov= ement of a river.) If we get to work on it now, we might really be able t= o=0Apull something together by next June. I'm in charge of the weekend & = would be=0Ahappy to help in any way I can. Judy Grunberg (Mireille's Daug= hter) Date: =09Friday, May 22, 1998 2:14:21 PM From: =09mls-AT- panix.com Subj: =09 Re: permanent record To: =09ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Re Barbara Ruth's and Judy Grunberg's postings regarding preserving Christine's and Fried's teaching and choreographic heritage: (edited by J= udy=0A8/11/98) When Sol initially posted his suggestion, I emailed several of our local dancers who I believed would be interested in such a project. One of the= m was Suzanne Ford, who attended the most recent Fried for All. Here is th= e relevant portion of her response: Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Monterey, and Arcata Revisited To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808111537.KAA20211-AT- staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT [experiences calling for large numbers of beginners snipped] When I'm calling for a large number of beginners (or even for a small number) who aren't there specifically to learn to dance, I stick with dances composed of figures in which the name more or less describes the figure. That is circles, stars, do-si-dos, allemandes, lines forward and back, etc. When doing longways dances I stick with proper dances (as opposed to improper) to avoid the crossing over problem. I also like to use dances where the progression is by passing the couple you are currently dancing with by and meeting the next. This avoids the problem of knowing which way to go. When leading kids in dancing I use dances where it doesn't matter who your partner is (gender-wise). Figures are done with your partner or your neighbor and don't worry about who are the men and who are the women. Kids will quite often choose their friends as their partners and these will likely be of the same sex so trying to get them to differentiate gender roles is an unnecessary complication. I don't have my notes with me but here are some of the dances I can remember off the top of my head that I like to use: circle mixers: Lucky 7 Heel and Toe Polka Scicilian circles: Sanita Hill Circle Dip for the Oyster Longways: Galopede Thady You Gander Cumberland Reel contras: Jefferson's Reel Haste to the Wedding Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Home page URL: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~j-sivier | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:47:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:47:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01J0H45285IQ8WWAI5-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- At the Mendocino English Week bookstore I bought "Early American Roots", a CD by Hesperus on the Maggie's Music label, and just got around to listening to it last night. Executive Summary: Very pretty. Don't try dancing to it. Hesperus is a trio of performers who also work, in various combinations, with the Folger Consort and the Baltimore Consort. On this recording they play cittern, baroque guitar, viola da gamba, recorder, baroque violin, hammered dulcimer, flageolet. They play these instruments well, and the performance is (according to the CD insert), historically informed. It's not danceably informed, and they don't credit a dance consultant. This is extremely frustrating because of their choices of tunes. (I took this setlist from the Tower Records entry for the album; then annotated it from memory; you can find it by following the link below and then clicking on "Early American Roots" http://www.towerrecords.com/pulse/97/nov/folk.html Following that link will let you hear RealAudio samples of some of the tunes.) * Medley: * Madison's Whim * Merry Strollers, The * Killerman, The {a} * Bobbing Joe {b} (Medley, multiple versions) * Cuckolds All A Row * Rufty Tufty * Parson's Farewell * Captain Kidd {c} * Nashville {c} (Shape note) * Sett Of Hornpipes, A [Purcell: Apollo's Banquet] * Butter'd Peas * Daphne * La Poule [cotillion; later a quadrille] * Childgrove * Spirit Of Gambo * Medley: Portsmouth * Staines Morris * Lusty Gallant * Chelsea Reach * Argeers * Daniel Purcell's Ground * New Jersey * Ball, The * John, Come Kiss Me Now (Shape note instrumental) * Rockbridge * Garden Hymn, The * Sett Of Jiggs, A [Purcell: Apollo's Banquet] * Scotch Cap * Merry Milkmaids, The * President's March, The * Ca Ira * Swallow, The * Colly Flower, The [cotillions] * Johnny Cock Thy Beaver You'll see that there are quite a few "Dancing Master" dances, some of Playford's music publishing, some Purcell, and (what really sold me on the CD), some cotillions other than the usual suspects. I'd love to hear cotillions played plausibly on period instruments. It doesn't happen here. Even though the liner notes discuss longways dances vs. cotillions and seem aware that ECD is done away, these musicians seem never to have danced, played for dancing, or watched country dancing at any time in their lives. In an effort to keep the material interesting, they change tempo at will. Numbers of repeats have little to do with the dances. The Portsmouth Medley is interesting, and might possibly function as a set of change tunes for Portsmouth -- they do some Portsmouth, then some of something else, then some more Portsmouth, then something else, and so on -- but certainly does violence to Chelsea Reach, which as a square isn't likely to be played that way. [I suppose it's only fair to have a ton of late 1600s English publications in "Early American Roots", but I would also have kind of liked it if they'd ditched the Playford material and worked entirely from native dance and tune books. There's certainly enough to fill more than one CD.] The music and playing, considered abstractly, are lovely, and the recording is worth listening to on its own merits. (Check the RealAudio samples and see if you agree.) But I found even thinking about dancing to it a teeth-grinding exercise in frustration. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:48:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: Peter.Fricke-AT- noaa.gov Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:48:01 -0400 From: Peter Fricke Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Cumberland Camp To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <0725935D0AE01013*/c=US/admd=ATTMAIL/prmd=GOV+NOAA/o=CCNMFS/s=Fricke/g=Peter/-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Just came back from a *great* week at the Cumberland Camp sponsored by the Lloyd Shaw Foundation. This camp is the new version of the Kentucky Summer Dance School and had lots of great English classes which really caught the attention of the 130+ campers. Gail and Lee Ticknor were teaching Playford-era classes; Diane Ortner had a marvellous class for those interested in modern ECD in Playford-style; Chris Bischoff taught rapper while Peter Rogers and I taught longsword. Separate barn dance classes (based on the EFDSS CDM series and led by me) for adults and children were fun and well-attended. Great music for classes was provided by members of the "House Band" organized and led by Kimble Howard. For those interested only in ECD, four of the six day-time class slots (three concurrent classes in each slot) had an ECD offering, and about one-third of the evening program comprised ECD. A similar number of time-slots was available to dancers interested in contras, squares and rounds; callers/leaders included Chris Bischoff, Bill Alkire, Lew and Enid Cocke. Music was by "Ten Penny Bit" plus members of the "House Band". As a gauge of interest in ECD, my "Northeast and Northwest contras" class with music by Ten Penny Bit was scheduled at the same time as Diane's modern ECD class... she had 70+ campers to my 12-15. The remaining third of classes had offerings for musicians, Scottish CD, international dances from the Balkans and Holland, Appalachian circles and squares, song, and clogging (Phyllis Rogers). Jack tale sessions were everywhere. My kids (4 and 8 years-old) loved their programs and are pestering me for a return trip next summer. Their programs were age-graded; at the end of the day they were tired but stimulated with new things and ideas. I and they liked the "intergenerational" classes at the end of the day and in the early evening and I really liked the bed-time story/activity and baby-sitting programs. The Kentucky Leadership Center facility was great. Hotel-type rooms for four with private baths; three good dance spaces with wooden floors, plus many other rooms for music, story-telling and song. Everything air-conditioned. Don and Sylvia Coffey were the program directors; for more information contact them at dscoffey-AT- mis.net; they may be less biased than I! Peter Fricke ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:48:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:57:08 +0100 From: mdevlin-AT- teleport.com (Mary Devlin) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Documenting current ECD leaders To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Stephanie Smith suggested brainstorming ideas for how we might go about documenting ECD leaders. I'll be at both English and EA weeks and would love to participate. See you there, Stephanie! Mary Devlin mdevlin-AT- teleport.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:54:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 02:54:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: (Re Hesperus' new CD): > Even though the liner notes discuss longways dances vs. cotillions and seem > aware that ECD is done away, these musicians seem never to have danced, > played for dancing, or watched country dancing at any time in their lives. > I know most of the members and can tell you they haven't. A recent CD by the Baltimore Consort, "Trip to Kilburn," which also features lots of Playford tunes, has the same problem & for the same reason. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 06:34:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:25:55 -0400 From: pam-AT- tedcrane.com (Pamela Goddard) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <98081209255532-AT- tedcrane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dawn C. sent a reply about the Baltimore Consort's "A Trip to Kilburn" recording which is also quite lovely to listen to, but "undanceable"... Shortly after that recording came out the Baltimore Consort played at the Old Songs Festival near Albany NY. They played performance, and also played for a session of English Country dance... and there were some interesting glitches when it became apparent that although they'd played the music they'd never played for dances before. There were some rocky starts, odd tempos, and very frustrated looks on the faces of the musicians. I think they had a learning experience, and it underscored for me that performance musicians and dance musicians are not necessarily the same... or I should say, have the same skills. The members of the Baltimore Consort were adaptable, and "got better" as the dance went on, but clearly it wasn't their strength. And I hope that playing for the dance (& hopefully for more dances later) expanded their understanding of the music. -Pamela Goddard in centrally isolated Ithaca NY ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 06:42:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:41:09 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Re: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <6d848d35.35d19b76-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/12/98 6:56:26 AM, Dawn Culbertson wrote: <> But this CD is wonderful to listen to - especially on a long car ride to Pinewoods! Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:02:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:59:19 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35D19FB7.1FDA444-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <98081209255532-AT- tedcrane.com> Pamela Goddard wrote: > and there were some interesting glitches > when it became apparent that although they'd played the music > they'd never played for dances before. There were some rocky starts, > odd tempos, and very frustrated looks on the faces of the musicians. > > I think they had a learning experience, and it underscored for me > that performance musicians and dance musicians are not necessarily > the same... or I should say, have the same skills. The only problem is that in Playford's time the musicians who played for listening (consorts) were also the same as those who played for dance (the latter often following the former at the same event - there is plenty of evidence for this from contemporary advertisements). This raises a serious question about the authenticity of the performance of present day musicians who claim to be playing "authentically" but who seem unable to play for dancing. Interestingly, I have a recording by (David Munrow if I remember correctly, I am away from my notes) of some Theatre Music by Purcell which includes the Hole In the Wall tune. The musicians did not know that they were playing country dance music but their Hole in the Wall is the most danceable (with baroque dance technique) rendition of that tune I have ever heard. Michael Barraclough ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:41:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:38:09 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <980812103809.1648-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I recall a record by the Baltimore Consort, supposedly for dancing, of the more popular ECD tunes. They short-changed "Jenny Pluck Pears," using the version, in some of the Dancing Masters, with (help! I'm away from my sources) one of the sections (B?) with only two slow "take-out" musics. I asked them why they did the incomplete version. They "liked it," was the reply. They lost credibility with me--big time. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:19:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:19:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Harmonica Boy Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Given the recent "Early American Roots" and Baltimore Consort discussion of what recordings are not dancable, I'd like to ask the opposite.* I've got a small collection of good dancable English cd's, but I'm always looking to get more. Here's what I have: the 3 Bare Necessities cd's (though Nightcap isn't always dancable ...); the Hold the Mustard English cd; the Assembly Players' "A Purcell Ball"; and Susan Worland and Marianne Taylor's cassette from Pinewoods '94. I've also got "A Trip to Kilburn", which is nice to listen to, but just not good for dancing ... What recommendations do people out there have for other recent-enough-to-still-be-available-somewhere recordings that are equally enjoyable for dancing and listening? *if this has been discussed somewhat recently, please pardon me; I've only been subscribed for the past several weeks! --will Will's Hole in the Web http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale Folk Dance Club's Page http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale/dance "Faith manages." -- Delenn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:51:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:48:45 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <980812114845.1d41-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Marshall Barron has been involved with a couple of recordings that are useful. One with Phil Merill on piano and another with a group on the west coast using, among others, Stan Kramer on violin. She has another album featuring Chuck Ward on Harpsichord and a recorder player whose name escapes me (I'm at work, away from my home stash). This works less well for me because there is no bass line with any weight to it. Since music of that period is, invariably, a bass/melody line duet with the harmony ad-libitum, I have the uneasy feeling of an open-faced sandwich held upside down. It's a very personal thing with me, a view not universally shared, but no apologies. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:48:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808121748.NAA24106-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Will: Here's a list of danceable recordings, all available through CDSS [email sales-AT- cdss.org] Orange & Blue The English Dancing Master, vols. 1, 2 & 4 The Ranchers The English Dancing Master, vol. 3 [You may want to argue with the tempos occasionally, but these EFDSS tapes are immensely danceable.] Assembly Players Playford from the New World (contemporary ECDs from USA) Claremont CD Band Popular English Dances of the 17th & 18th Centuries* Barron, Leber & Ward Step Stately* [*Cassette reissues of old CDSS LPs. Two other great albums, By Popular Demand & Juice of Barley, have not yet been reissued on tape, but are still available - on sale, even! - on LPs.] If you scramble, you can also still manage to get copies of some mostly unavailable but very wonderful recordings. When I saw him last year in England, Charles Bolton still had a few "All Alive!" cassettes left. Likewise, Rosie Cross of Pyewackett still has some copies of "7 to Midnight," an absolutely electrifying tape that is not for the purist at heart. However, to get either of these you'll have to email Charles or Rosie and be able to pay in pounds--I don't know whether you want to go to the trouble. Anyway, there *is* good stuff out there. Good luck! Sharon Green At 12:19 PM 8/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Given the recent "Early American Roots" and Baltimore Consort discussion >of what recordings are not dancable, I'd like to ask the opposite.* I've >got a small collection of good dancable English cd's, but I'm always >looking to get more. Here's what I have: the 3 Bare Necessities cd's >(though Nightcap isn't always dancable ...); the Hold the Mustard English >cd; the Assembly Players' "A Purcell Ball"; and Susan Worland and Marianne >Taylor's cassette from Pinewoods '94. I've also got "A Trip to Kilburn", >which is nice to listen to, but just not good for dancing ... > >What recommendations do people out there have for other >recent-enough-to-still-be-available-somewhere recordings that are equally >enjoyable for dancing and listening? > >*if this has been discussed somewhat recently, please pardon me; I've only >been subscribed for the past several weeks! > >--will > > >Will's Hole in the Web http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale >Folk Dance Club's Page http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale/dance > > "Faith manages." -- Delenn > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:07:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:02:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980812210242.13449.rocketmail-AT- attach1.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---Pamela Goddard wrote: > > Dawn C. sent a reply about the Baltimore Consort's > "A Trip to Kilburn" recording which is also quite lovely > to listen to, but "undanceable"... > > Shortly after that recording came out the Baltimore Consort > played at the Old Songs Festival near Albany NY. > They played performance, and also played for a session of > English Country dance... and there were some interesting glitches > when it became apparent that although they'd played the music > they'd never played for dances before. There were some rocky starts, > odd tempos, and very frustrated looks on the faces of the musicians. But in the liner notes on one of their recordings - it may be "Tunes from the Attic" they refer to a high point as playing for dancers in the C# "Shed" at Pinewoods. Or maybe they were just watching the dancers in C#. (Given the marketing aim of the CD as "Early Music") I figured I was probably one of maybe 20 people buying it, who knew what "C# Shed" referred to.) I don't know if that occasion was before or after Old Songs. I was also at the Old Songs Festival when they played there, and I enjoyed their performances so much that I bought a number of their CDs, including The "Trip to Kilburn". Oddly though, I have not been so pleased with the recordings. I don't have an educated enough ear to be able to zoom in on what it is that bothers me, I just know that the recordings while pretty have a kind flat, lifeless sound. Obviously it's not the group per se, since I enjoyed them in performance, but for some reason that doesn't translate into the recorded music, for me. As a general thing I don't see the problem with recordings of ECD made strictly for listening. It's gorgeous music and there are times when one might want to just listen to it without feeling moved to get up and dance - just relax and soak in the sound (listening while driving for instance might be a very good time to not feel the urge to move to the music). Barbara Ruth _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:44:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:43:36 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199808121743_MC2-55EE-D1F-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message text written by Alan Winston: >Folks -- At the Mendocino English Week bookstore I bought "Early American Roots", a CD by Hesperus on the Maggie's Music label, and just got around to listening to it last night. Executive Summary: Very pretty. Don't try dancing to it.< ... Another illustration of the chasm between "Early Music" groups playing dance repertory and the needs of ECD groups for good recorded music for dancing. >Even though the liner notes discuss longways dances vs. cotillions and seem aware that ECD is done away, these musicians seem never to have danced, played for dancing, or watched country dancing at any time in their lives. < As it happens Hesperus folks DID see, do, and play for (!!!) English Country Dancing. I invited them to be on staff for Early Music Week at Pinewoods in 1992. They had just developed their "Crossover" repertory juxtaposing Appalachian dances tunes and medieval tunes, which they were performing and recording. I had performed with Tina Chancey (Hesperus co-director with husband Scott Reiss) in the NY Renaissance Band for a couple of years, and knew her to be a very accomplished, smart, and aware musician, so it seemed like introducing them to ECD via the Pinewoods gig might result in something useful. Oh well. What did result was interest on the part of the Baltimore Consort in doing a CD of Playford-era material, including dances and ballads. So... (ever the optimist), I invited the entire Baltimore Consort to be on Pinewoods EMW staff in 1993! (at some significant out-of-pocket cost to me, and their director Mary Ann Ballard; CDSS staff fees are considerably less than members of a well known touring group expect) They, too, danced and played (in various combinations as individuals) for the evening dances. I spent 3 afternoons going through the "Barnes book" with them, pointing out tunes that were both good and useful to the dance community. Scott Higgs consulted with them as well. The result?... "Trip to Kilburn" on Dorian Records-- very pretty, but don't try dancing to it! Never admitting defeat, I collared fellow faculty member David Douglass, leader of the "King's Noyse" (fantastic Renaissance violin band) to play for an evening ECD session I led last week at the international Amherst Early Music Festival. Of course he was great, and he's already familiar with the repertory (King's Noyse already has a Harmonia Mundi CD out of English music of the 17th C., including several ECD's like Easter Thursday, Childgrove, etc.; very pretty, but don't try....). Playing for English country dancing is a distinct art, and as such requires the skill, study, and experience, that any art demands. So appreciate your local band! Of course the groups noted above had a different agenda-- to produce a "listening" disk. Even our beloved Bare Necessities has done that with "Nightcap" (very pretty, but.... ). Gene Murrow ECD Dancer, Caller, Musician and failed recorded dance music impressario ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:51:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:51:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Pamela Goddard wrote: > Dawn C. sent a reply about the Baltimore Consort's > "A Trip to Kilburn" recording which is also quite lovely > to listen to, but "undanceable"... > Shortly after that recording came out the Baltimore Consort > played at the Old Songs Festival near Albany NY. > They played performance, and also played for a session of > English Country dance... and there were some interesting glitches > when it became apparent that although they'd played the music > they'd never played for dances before. There were some rocky starts, > odd tempos, and very frustrated looks on the faces of the musicians. > I think they had a learning experience, and it underscored for me > that performance musicians and dance musicians are not necessarily > the same... or I should say, have the same skills. > The members of the Baltimore Consort were adaptable, and "got better" > as the dance went on, but clearly it wasn't their strength. > And I hope that playing for the dance (& hopefully for more dances later) > expanded their understanding of the music. I went to school with many of the group members (Peabody Conservatory in Baltimore) and have been playing for English dancing for about 10 years, and can say that classical training really isn't much help in playing for dancing. It does give you the ability to sightread easily and know where chords are, but doesn't really give you improvisational skills, nor does it give you a clue about the proper tempo for these dances. When these dances were initially done, everybody danced starting at a very young age so they developed a sort of "muscle memory" for tempi, and since professional instrumentalists rarely used scores, they were also very skilled improvisers. I've become convinced that the only way musicians can really play properly for English dancing is to have some kind of experience doing the dances themselves. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:53:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:53:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Re: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 CF1125-AT- aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/12/98 6:56:26 AM, Dawn Culbertson wrote: > > < the Baltimore Consort, "Trip to Kilburn," which also features lots of > Playford tunes, has the same problem & for the same reason.>> > > But this CD is wonderful to listen to - especially on a long car ride to > Pinewoods! I didn't mean to imply there's something wrong with the playing per se - I think it's basically good and there are very nice arrangements, and it does make good listening material. It's just not a good CD to dance to. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:55:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:55:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > I recall a record by the Baltimore Consort, supposedly for dancing, of > the more popular ECD tunes. They short-changed "Jenny Pluck Pears," using > the version, in some of the Dancing Masters, with (help! I'm away from my > sources) one of the sections (B?) with only two slow "take-out" musics. I > asked them why they did the incomplete version. They "liked it," was the > reply. They lost credibility with me--big time. That's the CD we're presently discussing: "Trip to Kilburn." Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:03:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:02:15 -0400 (EDT) From: JohnBerni-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #405 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From John Ramsay in St Louis-- A note of encouragement to the video project which Stephanie Smith is proposing. In working up a grant proposal it sometimes helps to have clues about available resources. I shot video footage of Philip Merrill, Otto Woods and Marguerite Woods at the Craftsman's Fair in Asheville NC in 1977, the summer before Otto died. It was made on old reel to reel in black and white and is not very good, but it does show Otto, especially, in action calling half a dozen dances or so. The tape is now in the archives at Berea College's Hutchins Library, along with more than a hundred other tapes of other dance events (Sidmouth's 25th, Sibyl Clark, Ethel Capps, Genny Shimer, etc.). I promised someone a copy of the tape with Philip Merrill but it took me so long to make a copy that now I've forgotten who that person was; his name is buried in the bowels of my computer. If he reads this, please send me you mailing address again. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:11:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:02:36 -0400 From: pam-AT- tedcrane.com (Pamela Goddard) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Early American Roots To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <98081218023674-AT- tedcrane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Following up on the thread of the discussion regarding danceable recordings. I'm sorry we seem to be picking on the Baltimore Consort. I have no problem with their recording (I only have Trip to Kilburn) It's fabulous to listen to, and I really enjoy hearing some words to some of the tunes (which brings up another question for aother time...) Many dance bands have made recordings which were not strickly speaking the way they would play the tunes if they were playing for a dance. Contra dance recordings by Wild Asparagus, Applejack, and many others come to mind, as well as recent recordings by Jacqueline Schwab, Mary Lea & Bare Necessities. These are great listening - as they should be. And in many cases the musicians point out in the notes that the music is played for listening, not for dancing. There's room for both. I have more of a problem with musicians who, conversely, are not able to shift back the other way, and play danceably when that is called for. One could wish that musicians interested in the music would be interested to expand their skills. Yes indeed (hats off to Gene Murrow), we should appreciate our local bands, and let them know when they're doing a great job. -Pamela Goddard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:54:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:53:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: REVIEW: (or disjointed comments) "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808122253.SAA21011-AT- mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re Gene Murrow's note on David Douglass et al: Gene-- Do not despair: the new David Douglass CD of "Apollo's Banquet" has a wonderfully danceable Cockle Shells on it. Of course, most of the other stuff on the CD comes under the "very pretty, but don't try...." rubric, but cut by cut, CD by CD, you can assemble some very danceworthy stuff. And Apollo's Banquet is gorgeous listening. Now when are *you* going to put together a recording? Hugs, Sharon (chief noodge & bottle-washer, CDNY) >Never admitting defeat, I collared fellow faculty member David Douglass, >leader of the "King's Noyse" (fantastic Renaissance violin band) to play >for an evening ECD session I led last week at the international Amherst >Early Music Festival. Of course he was great, and he's already familiar >with the repertory (King's Noyse already has a Harmonia Mundi CD out of >English music of the 17th C., including several ECD's like Easter Thursday, >Childgrove, etc.; very pretty, but don't try....). ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:27:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:28:30 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Likewise, Rosie Cross of Pyewackett still has some copies of "7 to >Midnight," an absolutely electrifying tape that is not for the purist at >heart. However, to get these you'll have to email Charles or >Rosie and be able to pay in pounds-- addresses please for Charles Bolton and Rosie Cross! 7 to midnight is also available as a CD - a wondrous thing is that recording. Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts eferguson-AT- umassd.edu Photographer, English Country Dance leader There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery; and the other that heat comes from the furnace. Aldo Leopold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:34:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:35:34 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I find the Baltimore Consort vocalist totally without dynamic variation, which wears rapidly on my patience. In addition, to me, when the dance tunes go by I mentally play the dances over in my head. It's very frustating to have them not fit together. I bought Trip to Kilburn. It seemed OK for a while until that voice grated on me. Caveat emptor. Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts eferguson-AT- umassd.edu Photographer, English Country Dance leader There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery; and the other that heat comes from the furnace. Aldo Leopold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:04:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:03:38 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1db38be8.35d2659b-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 8/12/98 5:52:17 PM, Dawn Culbertson wrote: <> Amen to that! But anyway, why are we looking for "danceable" recordings? Support your local live dance musicians! Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:40:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:30:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Emily L. Ferguson wrote: > 7 to midnight is also available as a CD - a wondrous thing is that > recording. Yes indeed; it started me on the road to playing this music. Meanwhile, anyone got any feelings on the Broadside Band? Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:47:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 03:47:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Paul J. Stamler wrote: > Meanwhile, anyone got any feelings on the Broadside Band? I think they're great! Generally speaking, their tempos are very danceable and the arrangements are good, but most of the time the tunes aren't repeated more than a few times so you can't do any substantial dancing to them. (In set dances like Newcastle, they do take the correct number of repeats.) Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:39:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:35:36 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35D2B368.52639829-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Emily L. Ferguson wrote: > > addresses please for ... Rosie Cross! > > 7 to midnight is also available as a CD - a wondrous thing is that > recording I have an email address for Rosie Cross (actually Mike Bettison, her partner). I need to check with her before I release it. I will post as soon as I find out. I am glad that you liked 7 to Midnight. It was great fun making it (I was the dance consultant) and having been the caller with them for 10 years I am still in mourning over their demise. Michael Barraclough ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:29:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:29:02 -0400 (EDT) From: RLHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01J0JR3Q8L7C90XXJ7-AT- amherst.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Will, When I was president of the folk Dance Club at Swarthmore in the early eighties :) we still had a collection of the old 78's and a clunky old tunrtable to play them on. Have those disappeared from view at last (along with a huge collection of International Folk Dance LPs)? That would be a sad loss indeed. Robin Hayden in her Swarthmore '83 hat ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:25:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:24:32 -0700 From: giovanni de amici Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35D30530.66F7-AT- trw.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <1db38be8.35d2659b-AT- aol.com> CF1125-AT- aol.com wrote: >... > But anyway, why are we looking for "danceable" recordings? Support your local > live dance musicians! > Because, at least in my local are, "live dance musicians" are: - few - hard to find - unwilling to commit to a regular schedule of performances - greedy (demanding more money than the dance can afford to pay) - unreliable (calling the morning of the dance to say they will not be there, and sometimes not calling at all). Happy dancing. Giovanni ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:55:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:40:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, giovanni de amici wrote: > Because, at least in my local are, "live dance musicians" are: > - few > - hard to find > - unwilling to commit to a regular schedule of performances > - greedy (demanding more money than the dance can afford to pay) > - unreliable (calling the morning of the dance to say they will > not be there, and sometimes not calling at all). As someone who gets paid an average of $6.00 per 2-hour dance, I'm not sure I'd characterize wanting more money as "greedy". Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:48:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:44:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980813164459.12729.rocketmail-AT- web4.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---"Paul J. Stamler" wrote: > As someone who gets paid an average of $6.00 per 2-hour dance, I'm not > sure I'd characterize wanting more money as "greedy". Ooh, we can top that. What are you doing next June and July? Barbara Ruth New Haven Country Dancers _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:57:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:57:11 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199808131257_MC2-5605-B447-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Why are we looking for danceable recordings? Well' up here in Vermont there are lots of musicians but most of them are busy playing for Contra dances where they can afford to pay them lots more than we can manage for English and Scottish classes every week or so. We do use live musicians on occcassion but as a regular thing, with groups our size, it is out of the question. At that we are luckier than many groups who are entirely dependent on recordings. Remember that we have less people in our entire state than most of you have in a suburb. Ben Stein dancers-AT- Compuserve.Com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:42:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:45:45 +0100 From: martin.sheffield-AT- wanadoo.fr (M Sheffield) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > >What recommendations do people out there have for other >... recordings that are equally >enjoyable for dancing and listening? I'm mainly a lurker and by no means an expert, but I'd like to mention some CDs available in Europe. The Assembly Players have produced "A Walsh Ball" (18c), which definitely lives up to its claim to be "for dancing as well as listening" (the leader is both musician and dance leader, so he knows what he is talking about). Ref: APCD 9401. Also by the Assembly Players: "New Wine in Old Bottles" (P Shaw), described as "Playford with a difference". Ref: EFDSS CD01. Their "Purcell Ball" CD has already been mentioned. They have produced other titles, not in my posssession, but I see no reason why they should be any less delightful than the 3 above. Another very nice recording I have recently acquired: Wild Thyme's "Dutch Crossing", Ref: NVS 3CD. Still danceable, though a little less satisfying musically (IMHO): The Old Swan Band's "Still Swanning" compilation, ref: FRCD 31. The Committee Band's "Dance music", tunes of very various origins, decidedly modern, probably more Englsih-ceilidh style than ECD. Ref: WPCD 001. Enjoy both listening and dancing. Martin, Grenoble, France. ------------------ http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scots.in.france/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:23:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:19:26 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Pyewackett Albums/CDs/Cassette Availability To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35D3666E.47D51D24-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Rosie Cross can be reached via Bettison-AT- Bowes.onyxnet.co.uk Availability/media is as follows: Pyewackett - nothing available The Man in The moon Drinks Claret - nothing available but has since been - re-released on CD by the Dutch company Music & Words This Crazy Paradise - vinyl, cassettes and CDs 7 to Midnight - a few cassettes The first three are mainly vocals with the occasional (danceable) tune 7 to Midnight is a dance album with one vocal track. Michael Barraclough ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:03:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:04:58 -0600 From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT So far no-one has mentioned the recordings for Colin Humes' Dances with a Difference. All of them are very danceworthy, though you have to be brave to tackle some of the dances. For favourite Playford dances there is a CD of great charm and usefulness, "Playford Pops" by Chris Dewhurst and Sue Stapledon. These two are very experienced players for dancing, who know all about the correct tempi and numbers of times through. Purists may be upset that their instruments are accordian, violin and electric piano, but they specifically say that their interpretations are for _dancing_ and not meant to be historically accurate. The style of playing is characteristic of _English_ ECD bands. Here is a list of dances: Jack's Maggot, Trip to Paris, Chelsea Reach, Childgrove, Spanish Jigg, Jamaica (4 couple version), Mr Isaac's Maggot, Nonesuch, Mr Cosgill's Delight, Queen's Jig, Mad Robin, Step Stately, My Lord Byron's Maggot, Newcastle, Black Nag, Mr Beveridge's Maggot (Pat Shaw's version), Indian Queen, Never Love Thee More. All the duple minor dances are played 7 times through, except Never Love Thee More, which is played 12 times. You can order this CD (and other useful recordings of generic 32 bar or 48 bar reels, jigs and waltzes) from Cloverleaf Music. Contact Julie Dewhurst, 2 Laurel Close, Lichfield, Staffordshire, WS13 6TT, England. Tel 01543 252120. If calling from USA: 011 44 1543 252120, and don't forget England is 5 to 8 hours ahead. Emma PS I have no connection with Chris and Sue other than having enjoyed dancing to their playing on 4 occasions. - Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112 phone (801) 585-9425, fax (801) 581-4668 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:42:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:43:00 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >I am glad that you liked 7 to Midnight. It was great fun making it (I >was the dance consultant) and having been the caller with them for 10 >years I am still in mourning over their demise. How many years have you been mourning?! What a great band! I remember making a tape of the record for Peter Barnes. He had fun with it for weeks afterward! Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts eferguson-AT- umassd.edu Photographer, English Country Dance leader There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery; and the other that heat comes from the furnace. Aldo Leopold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:54:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:55:07 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Pyewackett Albums/CDs/Cassette Availability To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Rosie Cross can be reached via Bettison-AT- Bowes.onyxnet.co.uk > >Availability/media is as follows: > >Pyewackett - nothing available When can we get this out on CD? >The Man in The moon Drinks Claret - nothing available but has since >been re-released on CD by the Dutch company Music & Words I got it from Roots Records. >7 to Midnight - a few cassettes Need this on CD also. What's the chance of getting these things put out? The two of them could go out on a single CD > >The first three are mainly vocals with the occasional (danceable) tune >7 to Midnight is a dance album with one vocal track. But "Pyewackett" is fabulous also! Lobby for their release!!!!! email Rosie!!!!!! Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts eferguson-AT- umassd.edu Photographer, English Country Dance leader There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery; and the other that heat comes from the furnace. Aldo Leopold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:11:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:10:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Paul J. Stamler wrote: > On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, giovanni de amici wrote: > > > Because, at least in my local are, "live dance musicians" are: > > - few > > - hard to find > > - unwilling to commit to a regular schedule of performances > > - greedy (demanding more money than the dance can afford to pay) > > - unreliable (calling the morning of the dance to say they will > > not be there, and sometimes not calling at all). > > As someone who gets paid an average of $6.00 per 2-hour dance, I'm not > sure I'd characterize wanting more money as "greedy". Yes, Giovanni, how much do your musicians want? Musicians down here get $25 per 2 1/2-hour dance, but in comparison with union scale and the skills needed to do a good job, that's still small potatoes. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:42:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:41:22 -0700 From: giovanni de amici Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35D45AA2.7703-AT- trw.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Dawn Culbertson wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Paul J. Stamler wrote: > > > On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, giovanni de amici wrote: > > > > > Because, at least in my local are, "live dance musicians" are: > > > - few > > > - hard to find > > > - unwilling to commit to a regular schedule of performances > > > - greedy (demanding more money than the dance can afford to pay) > > > - unreliable (calling the morning of the dance to say they will > > > not be there, and sometimes not calling at all). > > > > As someone who gets paid an average of $6.00 per 2-hour dance, I'm not > > sure I'd characterize wanting more money as "greedy". > > Yes, Giovanni, how much do your musicians want? Musicians down here get > $25 per 2 1/2-hour dance, but in comparison with union scale and the > skills needed to do a good job, that's still small potatoes. > I had one musician tell me that for less than 50$ (for a 2-hour dance) she would not play. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:47:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:47:31 -0500 (EST) From: GAFF-AT- neu.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01J0LCBD0AC2ADQ8T6-AT- neu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The use of teh word "greedy" distracts from the realissue which is a mismatch between what musicians need and what the gate at your local dance can support. Recordings are helpful as long as this mismatch exists. Terry Gaffney ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:22:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:22:05 -0500 From: Bob Borcherding Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dance musicians and more... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808141622.LAA17927-AT- mail1.stlnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Because, at least in my local are, "live dance musicians" are: >- few >- hard to find There are many musicians around most anyplace that would love to play, although they might not be aware of the opportunity. A dance group will also have to allow for a learning curve, as the musicians must learn to play for dancing. There are many musicians, classically trained, who would find it delightful to play for a dance. It would help to have someone who could approach members of a community/local/school orchestra, asking if they want to play. Also, contacting instrumental teachers might be something to consider. >- unwilling to commit to a regular schedule of performances Since there are many musicians out there, waiting for an opportunity to play, it would make sense to cultivate a variety of musicians, rather than just one "band", allowing for variety in scheduling. This prevents burn-out of the musicians, and also prevents a strong-willed individual from taking control of "the band" for their own personal (selfish) gratification, and allows for a musical variety from dance to dance. >- greedy (demanding more money than the dance can afford to pay) I belong to an orchestra where classically trained musicians pay to be a member (please don't think this means I'm classically trained). Money will not be an issue if your standards aren't terribly high. Those musicians who want to play for the love and joy of playing will play for free, and you will probably find them to be quite good, especially after time. And they will enjoy it--having a happy group of musicians makes the dancers happier (from my brief personal exposure, it seems that a good contribution of Peter Barnes to dance music is that he projects happiness while playing it). >- unreliable (calling the morning of the dance to say they will > not be there, and sometimes not calling at all). Just as in the remainder of the world, musicians have varying degrees of reliability. One must know who is worthy of working on one's auto, painting one's house, delivering one's baby. Similarly, one must have an assessment of the reliability of the musicians and dance leaders you find. Although in a perfect world it shouldn't be necessary, it is prudent for the organizers of a group to check on the musicians and leaders to be certain of their attendance (this would allow for use of the less-than-totally-reliable dance musician/leader). It is also prudent to recognize that musicians do sometimes have a life that exerts other demands, and will from time-to-time need to cancel. The most important characteristic of a dance leader/dancer/musician is the ability to be accepting and create enjoyment in participants. Technique/ability is secondary, in my book--but combine ability with a good heart, then you've got something. Someone else posted that a musician wouldn't play for a dance for less than $50 for two hours. In regard to this, I would say that I've driven hundreds of miles, paid to go to a dance weekend, cooked a potluck contribution--all for the fun of playing for a dance for an hour or so (and also jamming), IF I EXPECT TO HAVE FUN. Or gone to play for a dance week for a stipend that essentially covered some of my costs. If it's not fun and you're a good friend, I might do it for free or a slight fee. If it's not fun and you are not a friend, prepare to pay (I will still try to have fun, however). So if you want to develop and keep musicians, make sure they are kept happy--this also means that the dancers must be kept happy, because there is a synergy between the dancers and musicians. Pay attention to your musicians, include them into your activities, thank them, talk with them. Bob Borcherding gapbob-AT- stlnet.com, St. Louis, Missouri, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:55:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:40:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, giovanni de amici wrote: > I had one musician tell me that for less than 50$ (for a 2-hour dance) > she would not play. That's still less than the going rate for most professional musicians, at least around here. Typical standard rate is $50-75 for the first hour, $25-50 for each additional hour up to four. So at the very least you'd be paying $75 for a two hour dance. Does this seem excessive? Consider that the professional musician doesn't get paid for the time spent setting up and tearing down, or for time spent rehearsing or practicing. Furthermore, consider that a typical professional musician does not get paid work for 40 hours a week, although s/he is probably working well over that amount on things like setting up bookings and working up new material. There's also little things like the cost of a professional-quality instrument. I'm lucky -- as a guitarist, fully professional instruments are available starting at about $1,300. A violinist or cellist will be paying a lot more. Then there's health insurance... The bottom line is that at almost every English dance I've come across, the people on the bandstand (if professionals) make considerably less than the people on the floor. A generalization -- but a broadly applicable one, in my experience. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:19:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:19:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Harmonica Boy Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Early American Roots" To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Paul J. Stamler wrote: > That's still less than the going rate for most professional musicians, at > least around here. Typical standard rate is $50-75 for the first hour, > $25-50 for each additional hour up to four. So at the very least you'd be > paying $75 for a two hour dance. i realize i'm writing from a somewhat anomalous position, but ... as a student at Swarthmore, i play in the pick-up band for our weekly English classes. some of the student musicians played for Perdues (Scott Higgs's monthly dance, which most months features cassettes) last spring, and it was a joy for everyone. the dancers loved having good live music, and the musicians loved getting to play for them: most nights at class, we do only five or six dances, so a full programme of nearly twenty was exciting! when, as i was putting away my guitar and helping clean up, someone handed me a $20 from the till, i was shocked: i thought we'd been just playing for fun! i'd love to play for them again--or anywhere else, of course!--and getting paid never hurts, but, for me at least, it's for fun first, profit second. of course, i'm a student, and i hope to be a full-time sysadmin when i graduate, so i'm not playing those health insurance blues just yet ... so, if you've got a supply of musicians nearby who aren't full-time dance musicians (you might not have somewhere like Swarthmore nearby where you can actually get experienced amatuer English dance musicians, but you're bound to have musicians you can introduce to a new canon of tunes), you can still get quality music at a much lower price, and the musicians will really appreciate the experience! --will Will's Hole in the Web http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale Folk Dance Club's Page http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale/dance "Faith manages." -- Delenn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:54:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:49:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dance musicians and more... To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980814174955.28434.rocketmail-AT- attach1.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---Bob Borcherding wrote: > So if you want to develop and keep musicians, make sure they are kept > happy--this also means that the dancers must be kept happy, because there > is a synergy between the dancers and musicians. Pay attention to your > musicians, include them into your activities, thank them, talk with them. I have found that a ready supply of chocolate chip brownies has a positive effect on keeping musicians coming back despite awful pay. Lemon bars and anything baked by Helen Davenport are also quite useful in this respect. Barbara Ruth _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:27:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 02:27:40 -0400 From: Albert Blank Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dancable recordings To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35D3D8DC.3D55AB08-AT- sprintmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01J0JR3Q8L7C90XXJ7-AT- amherst.edu> RLHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu wrote (in part): > ... Swarthmore in the early > eighties :) ... still had a collection of the old 78's ... . Have those > disappeared from view at last (along with a huge collection of International > Folk Dance LPs)? That would be a > sad loss indeed. Dear Robin, The Swarthore 78's may have disappeared but I have acted as custodian of the CDSS 78rpm disk archive and have added to it contributions from myself and a number of other collectors and have taped copies of disks still in use by a number of groups in the 70's and early 80's . I have a database of disks in the archive and will be happy to distribute the database in *.dbf format to anyone who sends me a blank floppy with a SASE . --- WARNING! All floppies I receive will be magnetically erased before insertion in my machine. Make sure they contain no data. --- I also have undertaken the job of distributing cassette copies of the CDSS tape series of country dances recorded by Phil Merrill, Marshall Barron & friends (for a minor charge) and the morris dance series by artists unspecified. A printed catalog of these will be sent along as well. In short, most of the archive of old recordings is available. Anything more than 50 years old - that includes all of the 78's - is out of copyright. I've auctioned cassette copies of this material at Pinewoods in the past. If anyone would like to have cassettes made of selections from the archive I will supply for an appropriate contribution to CDSS but, remember, this as a spare time activity for me and it will be done in my own time and at my own convenience. Albert Blank Antiquarian ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:54:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:09:37 +0000 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Callers workshop notes on web To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've just put my notes from the callers workshops that Mike Courthold and I ran at Sidmouth up on the web at: http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/callnote.htm They can also be reached from my main dance page: http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqzz.htm Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 22:43:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 00:59:23 -0400 From: solweber-AT- juno.com (sol weber) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Barbara Ruth : Re: Dance musicians and more... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980816.013723.19214.36.solweber-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have found that a ready supply of chocolate chip brownies has a positive effect on keeping musicians coming back despite awful pay. Lemon bars and anything baked by Helen Davenport are also quite useful in this respect. Barbara Ruth ................as are Werther's Original butterscotch yummies Sol Weber _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 04:51:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: philippe.callens-AT- uia.ua.ac.be Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:51:49 +0200 From: Philippe Callens Subject: Re: What publication is this? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35D81955.2B98-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199808062356.AA120977817-AT- hplbh.hpl.hp.com> The Lacemaker has been recorded on For Your Pleasure, a series of tapes produced by Charles Bolton. He may know more about it. Philippe Callens ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 04:55:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:52:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808171152.HAA03878-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > I too find the "Shaw siding" - call it what you will - more flirtatious, Sigh, I'm forgetting which type was which. I'm hankering more towards the crescant-moon siding these days (Sharp?) because I consider it more flirtatious. It often helps use up the music better and is more "gypsy"-like. Similarily, since all English dance is derived from Italian dance (snicker) I've started to replace set & turns with 2 spetz (ie doing the 2 steps of the set from the set & turn as an approaching flanking sort of thing - ie for the first set step forward to the left and for the 2nd set, step forward to the right diagional). It gets you closer and you can do the bashfull bit when you get close or otherwise have other fun with it. I've found that people don't really have all that much luck flirting with siding or set & turn. Now, given a fan (to shade their eyes) some people can be downright dangerous with their flirting :) - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 05:06:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:03:11 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35D81BFF.85CD17FB-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199808171152.HAA03878-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Eric Praetzel wrote: > Similarily, since all English dance is derived from Italian dance Proof? There was certainly an influence but anything more is conjecture. In fact it is more, rather than less, likely that English Country dancing (structure and choreographic units) went to and was used in Italy in the late C17 and C18. The origins of English Country Dance are still a matter for speculation and academic research but from my work todate there is a good chance that the origin was actually Ireland. Michael Barraclough ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 05:13:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:10:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808171210.IAA03967-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Eric Praetzel wrote: > > Similarily, since all English dance is derived from Italian dance > > Proof? You edited out my "" !!! This was based off of some tidbits of proof from a Pennsic class 2 years ago given by Master Sion. The English courts had copies of the Italian dance manuals and you can see similarities in some of the dance forms. I don't remember the details and the class was not entirely serious. He was teaching about different dance formations; ie how dances tend to mark out the space that they use within the first run-thru of the music ... One of the things that sprang out of that was the impression that EC dancing had taken things from its Italian forebearers. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 05:33:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:37:47 +0000 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35D7DDCA.3E26-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199808171152.HAA03878-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Eric Praetzel wrote: > Similarily, since all English dance is derived from Italian dance (snicker) Eric, you might not want to open this door...again! > I've started to replace set & turns with 2 spetz (ie doing the 2 steps of > the set from the set & turn as an approaching flanking sort of thing - ie > for the first set step forward to the left and for the 2nd set, step > forward to the right diagional). It gets you closer and you can do the > bashfull bit when you get close or otherwise have other fun with it. It's been my experience, both dancing and teaching, that a set and turn single is done approaching the other person on the setting steps and the turn single is back to place. In fact setting as an approach figure is so common, that it often has to be specified *not* approach, if it is to be followed by, for example, a cross-over or some other figure that requires the dancers to have some space between them first. It's hard to change places in four beats when you are already in each other's faces... Mary (Where's that personal space?) Jones Amherst, MA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:10:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:07:07 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <980817080707.29bb-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I remember a great button-message from a dance a year or two ago: something to the effect: I dance I sweat I flirt I leave Any other great dance-button messages out there? Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:11:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dance musicians and more... To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980817130752.7965.rocketmail-AT- web4.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---sol weber wrote: > > > I have found that a ready supply of chocolate chip brownies has a > positive effect on keeping musicians coming back despite awful pay. > Lemon bars and anything baked by Helen Davenport are also quite useful > in this respect. > > Barbara Ruth > > ................as are Werther's Original butterscotch yummies > > Sol Weber Oh do those work on musicians as well? I thought they were just to keep the dancers coming back. Barbara Ruth _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:07:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:07:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: dance origins To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Towarzysze, and believe me I don't mean that lightly, With respect to the messages as to the origins of English country dancing, it's widely recognized that all English country dances are derived from sword dances. It's obvious and needs no explanation. sincerely, Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:16:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:13:00 -0500 From: Anne Marie Edden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Shaw Siding To: uunet!erols.com!mjoconor-AT- uunet.uu.net, ECD List Message-ID: <06E8943101FC4600-AT- GRUZENSAMTON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT FORWARDED MESSAGE from Michael J. O'Connor (uunet$er -AT- GSMAIL {uunet!erols.com!mjoconor}) at 8/09/98 2:09 PM In about seven postings so far on this thread, Shaw siding has been called: 1) into-a-line siding 2) old siding 3) linear siding 4) side-by-side siding 5) into-line siding 6) shoulder siding and, of course 7) Shaw siding. Cecil Sharp's interpretation has attracted a far less varied nomenclature: 1) new siding 2) curvy siding and 3) Sharp siding, although, before Pat Shaw did his research, I presume it was called, more simply, just plain 4) siding. I have also heard it called 5) swirl siding and 6) banana siding. There may be more. Please, enough already! If the context is historical development, old and new may be meaningful, but they are no more descriptive than Sharp and Shaw. As a new dancer four years ago, I could never figure out which one Shaw siding was (or Sharp); I had enough difficulty trying to focus on the pattern without delving into historical issues that dance leaders would occasionally advert to. The fact both names start with the same three letters made trying to construct a mnemonic to aid me more confusing. ***** NOTES from Anne Marie Edden (AEDDEN -AT- GRUSAM) at 8/17/98 9:55 AM Mike, At about the point I was ready to associate names with the two types of siding, a spirited New York dancer refered to them as Sharp siding and Dull siding. Now I know that there is more to Shaw siding than that name implies, but I have never since confused the two. Annie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:24:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:20:34 +0100 From: Michael Barraclough Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shaw Siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <35D83C32.13E784FF-AT- email.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <06E8943101FC4600-AT- GRUZENSAMTON.COM> Anne Marie Edden wrote: > At about the point I was ready to associate names with the two types of > siding, a spirited New York dancer refered to them as Sharp siding and Dull > siding. Now I know that there is more to Shaw siding than that name > implies, but I have never since confused the two. Thankyou for that delightful addition to the nomenclature! Michael Barraclough ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:46:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:38:27 -0400 From: solweber-AT- juno.com (sol weber) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: POSTINGS + Permanent record To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980817.113933.4310.13.solweber-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Two items. 1. A humble request. One of the alarming modern-day fears in the hearts of those returning from lengthy trips is -- How many e-mail messages will be choking my computer? Those of us attending English and/or Eng-Amer weeks (plus maybe a Labor Day Weekend activity) will face this problem, so I beseechingly ask that postings be kept to a minimum from this Fri (Aug 21) till a day or two after the Labor Day Weekend. Yes, I know about digests, but that's a chancy process that sometimes leads to problems. So if the timing is not important and the thought (whether sharp or dull) can wait, do have mercy. 2. It appears that at English Week there will be some discussion about creating permanent records (film and video, etc) of folks like Pat Shaw, Fried Herman, and many others, so if you won't be there but have some useful ideas to contribute (artistic thoughts, funding, equipment availability, various kinds of expertise, etc), now would be a good time to share them. \+++++Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" ++++++25-14 37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am) +++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:26:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:26:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: POSTINGS + Permanent record To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808171626.MAA21007-AT- mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear ECD Folks: For my part, I look forward to your cheery messages whenever I get back from a trip. Post away, if you please. Dear Sol: Two possibilities: 1) With a Palm Pilot or laptop, you can pick up your e-mail on the road. 2) You can always [the horror!] temporarily unsubscribe. Fearlessly into the 21st century, Sharon At 11:38 AM 8/17/98 -0400, Sol wrote: >1. A humble request. One of the alarming modern-day fears in the hearts >of those returning from lengthy trips is -- How many e-mail messages will >be choking my computer? Those of us attending English and/or Eng-Amer >weeks (plus maybe a Labor Day Weekend activity) will face this problem, >so I beseechingly ask that postings be kept to a minimum from this Fri >(Aug 21) till a day or two after the Labor Day Weekend. Yes, I know >about digests, but that's a chancy process that sometimes leads to >problems. So if the timing is not important and the thought (whether >sharp or dull) can wait, do have mercy. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:38:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:35:21 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dance musicians and more... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <980817133521.2491-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Pity the poor flute/clarinet/recorder players when such lures as triple chocolate brownies, lemon bars, etc. are given to the musicians. Forbes/BakerU ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:41:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:38:37 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: dance origins To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <980817133837.2491-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Steve Corrsin writes ". . . all English Country dances are derived from sword dances" Steve, you hit a nerve. Sounds like your "gettin' above yer raisin'," as the southern Appalachian folk would like to say. That idea may be "widely recognized" in your part of the woods, but out here that makes no sense. Either explain or apologize! Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:51:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:42:19 -0400 From: solweber-AT- juno.com (sol weber) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: POSTINGS REVISITED To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980817.144220.4310.17.solweber-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Some folks have politely taken exception to my suggestion. I did mean well, and the benefits would of course accrue to ANYONE on vacation ANYWHERE, but if anyone took umbrage, my sincerest apologies. My greatest fear is that, according to the laws of irony, people getting back from vacation in a few days will find 73 messages on the subject of too many postings! \+++++Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" ++++++25-14 37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am) +++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:52:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:51:56 -0400 (EDT) From: RLHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: explaining and apologizing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01J0PPMOKVO2926OOT-AT- amherst.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Since those of us who know Steve will be relatively sure he will neither explain nor apologize, I will take it upon myself to 1)explain that he was being entirely facetious, and 2)apologize for his being entirely facetious. Robin Hayden, English dancer, and interpreter for dancers of all kinds ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:26:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:23:40 -0700 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35D8BB7C.7B19-AT- erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <980817080707.29bb-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > > Any other great dance-button messages out there? I used to have a great sweatshirt that had a drawing of Snoopy dancing up a storm with a blissful smile on his/her/its face; the back of the shirt read: "To dance is to live." Has anyone seen this available recently? Or know how to contact whoever does merchandising for Peanuts? Mike O'Connor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:39:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:36:44 -0400 From: Daniel Walkowitz Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980817173644.006874cc-AT- is2.nyu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <980817080707.29bb-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> >> Any other great dance-button messages out there? > > I used to have a great sweatshirt that had a drawing of Snoopy dancing >up a storm with a blissful smile on his/her/its face; the back of the >shirt read: > "To dance is to live." > Has anyone seen this available recently? Or know how to contact >whoever does merchandising for Peanuts? > Mike O'Connor Mike, Ballo Ergo Sum. with (apologies to) Des Carte before des walkowitz. Danny Walkowitz Daniel J. Walkowitz Director, Metropolitan Studies, and Professor of History 285 Mercer Street, rm 703, New York University New York, New York 10003-6607 tel. (212) 998-8091 fax (212) 995-4371 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:15:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: dance origins To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hear, hear. I'm astonished at Steve's absolute confidence in a theory I've never heard of! Certainly it would take a lot of hard evidence to convince me of anything so farfetched! Julia Sutton On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > Steve Corrsin writes > > ". . . all English Country dances are derived from sword dances" > > Steve, you hit a nerve. Sounds like your "gettin' above yer raisin'," > as the southern Appalachian folk would like to say. That idea may be > "widely recognized" in your part of the woods, but out here that makes no > sense. Either explain or apologize! > > Forbes/Baker U > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:50:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:54:01 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: dance origins To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 9:14 PM 8/17/98, julia s sutton wrote: >Hear, hear. I'm astonished at Steve's absolute confidence in a theory I've >never heard of! Certainly it would take a lot of hard evidence to convince >me of anything so farfetched! Hmmm, a quick look at _Sword Dancing in Europe: A History_ (by Stephen D. Corrsin) suggests that little or nothing is known of sword dance figuration in the early centuries of historical records concerning sword dancing, and that England is hardly a hotbed of the form until well after the Playford books appeared. Methinks you are being trolled (nor do I think this uncharacteristic of Steve! what he is confident of, and what he betimes expresses confidence in, may be in, ummm, interesting relation.) BTW: I recommend the book. :-) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:22:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Michael Barraclough wrote: > Eric Praetzel wrote: > > Similarily, since all English dance is derived from Italian dance > > Proof? There was certainly an influence but anything more is > conjecture. In fact it is more, rather than less, likely that English > Country dancing (structure and choreographic units) went to and was used > in Italy in the late C17 and C18. The origins of English Country Dance > are still a matter for speculation and academic research but from my > work todate there is a good chance that the origin was actually Ireland. A lot of the figures are similar to French Renaissance branles also, such as the hey. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:40:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:33:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > Any other great dance-button messages out there? "ECD -- The most fun you can have with too many clothes on" Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:55:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:52:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: dance origins To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > With respect to the messages as to the origins of English country dancing, > it's widely recognized that all English country dances are derived from > sword dances. Aha! Now I understand what novelists mean when they say, "He greeted her at the dance, and she cut him dead." Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:12:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:12:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: never apologize, never explain To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Who said that, anyhow? Well, I do sometimes do both. In this case, I'll explain but not apologize. (About my Well Known and Completely Proved statement that all English CD are derived from sword dancing.) Is joke. As such not a damned thing to apologize for. Except I'm surprised that anyone thought it was a serious comment. I was bemused by the developing thread on "origins." I actually think, speaking professionally as an historian, that there are few things as futile as discussions of the "origins" of popular customs. Of course I was joking. In fact, everyone knows that Cecil ("Don't call me See-sill") Sharp invented English country dancing on a rainy Tuesday afternoon in the fall of 1901. He was doing the crossword in the "News of the World," you see, and was stumped ("City in Bohemia: 22 letters, no vowels"), threw down his pencil, and bellowed, "To hell with it! I'm going to invent English country dancing now. I mean, how much worse could it be?" Honest. Steve C. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:54:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:53:07 -0700 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Subject: Dance Origins Research To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35D9BF83.9D5-AT- erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199808171152.HAA03878-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> <35D81BFF.85CD17FB-AT- email.mot.com> This is follow-up to the thread that has recently been captioned "Flirtatiousness in siding," though that seems off the discussion topic. The bibliography in a 1997 book I have indicates that John Ward, at Harvard, was then expecting to have a book he was working on, with the tentative title _Tudor and Stuart Dance and Dance Music_, published by Oxford. Oxford tells me they have two proposals from him, one for _The Morris Tune_, the other for _Terpsichore and Albion_, which sounds like his original title may have been divided into two parts. On the other hand, Oxford is reorganizing editorial responsibility for music books, so this may not be current information. Does anyone from Boston, Cambridge or the academic community know Prof. Ward or have an easy way to contact him to find out either more information about his projected publishing (which seemed a year or more off from my inquiry) or whether he would care to contribute any thoughts to this thread? Mike O'Connor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:25:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:25:01 -0400 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: never apologize, never explain To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199808181925_MC2-5678-13EE-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message text written by Steve Corrsin: >...Sharp invented English country dancing on a rainy Tuesday afternoon in the fall of 1901< Close, but it was actually Summer. That's why "Upon A Summer's Day" is the first dance in the "1651" edition of the Dancing Master (which we all now know was carefully forged/drawn in pen and ink by Maud Karpeles, a skilled draftsperson and Sharp's partner in an "inappropriate" relationship for which he never apologized nor explained). Gene Murrow EC Dancer and Foreman of the Star-Right Grand Jury ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:10:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:08:13 -0400 From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: POSTINGS REVISITED To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808190008.UAA04145-AT- ns.kreative.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 02:42 PM 8/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >Some folks have politely taken exception to my suggestion. I did mean >well, and the benefits would of course accrue to ANYONE on vacation >ANYWHERE, but if anyone took umbrage, my sincerest apologies. My greatest >fear is that, according to the laws of irony, people getting back from >vacation in a few days will find 73 messages on the subject of too many >postings! I hope *I* didn't cause you to take umbrage :-). I understand your point, too: I had 150+ messages in my personal Email box when I got home, not to mention all the bureaucratic trash at work! And, it's too hard to turn some of it off: I just deal w/ it as best I can. Yours, /roger ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:04:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:05:20 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dance Origins Research To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Does anyone from Boston, Cambridge or the academic community know Prof. >Ward My goodness. Is he still alive? Julia Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts eferguson-AT- umassd.edu Photographer, English Country Dance leader There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery; and the other that heat comes from the furnace. Aldo Leopold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:37:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:37:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "m.a.j. mckenna" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: POSTINGS + Permanent record To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980819002441.08cf26a8-AT- pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 12:26 PM 8/17/98 -0400, sharon wrote: > >2) You can always [the horror!] temporarily unsubscribe. > does this list not have a "no mail" option? maryn speaking not at all rhetorically - i'm about to leave on a big trip too... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:19:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:18:27 -0400 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: New siding theory based on proposed origin theory To: Gene Murrow , Stephen D Corrsin , ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT LOL! Thanks youse guys Now getting back to the siding issue - so the different types of sidings can probably be associated with different types of swords? curvy siding with say, large sabres. straight siding with, hmmmmmm, epees? Mary Beth <-- who always KNEW that something was up with Maud Karpeles. At 10:12 AM -0400 8/18/98, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: >Of course I was joking. In fact, everyone knows that Cecil ("Don't call me >See-sill") Sharp invented English country dancing on a rainy Tuesday >afternoon in the fall of 1901. He was doing the crossword in the "News of >the World," you see, and was stumped ("City in Bohemia: 22 letters, no >vowels"), threw down his pencil, and bellowed, >"To hell with it! I'm going to invent English country dancing now. I >mean, how much worse could it be?" At 7:25 PM -0400 8/18/98, Gene Murrow wrote: >Close, but it was actually Summer. That's why "Upon A Summer's Day" is the >first dance in the "1651" edition of the Dancing Master (which we all now >know was carefully forged/drawn in pen and ink by Maud Karpeles, a skilled >draftsperson and Sharp's partner in an "inappropriate" relationship for >which he never apologized nor explained). > >Gene Murrow >EC Dancer and Foreman of the Star-Right Grand Jury ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 06:19:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:16:30 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: never apologize, never explain To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <980819081630.293f-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Was Steve Corsin getting the Playford list ethic confused with that of the Morris Dance Discussion Listserve? Forbes/BakerU ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:17:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:17:22 -0400 (EDT) From: JBGrun-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: POSTINGS REVISITED To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Especially noteworthy are the 29 postings discussing the benefits versus the disadvantages of voluntary message curtailment during vacation periods. Judy- i- think-it's-time-to-jump-in-here-Grunberg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:25:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:21:19 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD in Germany? To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199808191224_MC2-5683-D11F-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi all although there seems to be no German presence on this list: does anyone have any information on ECD groups/events over there? We're going to spend the better part of October visiting... Hanny Budnick ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:25:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:21:24 -0400 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Fried for Fall - felled To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199808191224_MC2-5683-D123-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The project failed.... Unfortunately the Fried for Fall '98 has been cancelled, not enough registrations Fortunately we all plan to live a few more years! So we will try again next year, but with a much earlier deadline, before everyone's dance season ends, for registrations. If you would like to be informed of the details (most likely weekend after Labor Day 1999) please send me an email. And if you receive the contents of this message in different incarnations several times, myu apologies. Hanny Budnick, who wonders why we are so intent on getting a permanent record of the work of our current elder dancing masters and mistresses and yet cannot fill a weekend that features one of them... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:26:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:26:07 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dance Origins Research To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To anyone interested in John Milton Ward: As far as I know he is still very much alive. I have no idea who wrote the message below. Julia Sutton On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Emily L. Ferguson wrote: > > Does anyone from Boston, Cambridge or the academic community know Prof. > >Ward > > My goodness. Is he still alive? > > Julia > > Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts > eferguson-AT- umassd.edu > Photographer, English Country Dance leader > > There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. > One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery; > and the other that heat comes from the furnace. > Aldo Leopold > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:01:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:00:29 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD in Germany? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1e3515ec.35db4aff-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have been to teach ECD in Westphalia for the last three years on the last weekend in September - twice in Neubeckum and once (last September) in Bocholt. If interested, contact me direct for contacts/addresses. Nicolas Broadbridge, Lanark, Scotland. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:01:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:00:36 -0400 (EDT) From: SallenNic-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: never apologize, never explain To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Wicked - I like it! Nicolas B. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:52:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:51:48 +0200 (MESZ) From: Tom Goodale Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD in Germany? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, if you're in Berlin on the 2nd of October we're holding a Barn dance. (I think that's the date anyhow. 8-) Tom On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Hanny D. Budnick wrote: > Hi all > although there seems to be no German presence on this list: does anyone > have any information on ECD groups/events over there? We're going to spend > the better part of October visiting... > Hanny Budnick > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:15:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:08:39 -0400 From: solweber-AT- juno.com (sol weber) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: PERMANENT RECORD, IN BRIEF To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19980820.230839.3734.21.solweber-AT- juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Discussions will be taking place at English and English/American Weeks, so here is some info drawn from recent ECD postings on this subject, plus some misc thoughts, to act as a springboard. I'll see some of you there, and others later on when I pick up future postings on my newly acquired ECD DIGEST. I think some exciting things will get done, and I thank those who have reacted enthusiastically. Among those who have offered to take an active part in some way are Danny Walkowitz (historian, one book, 3 films), Stephanie Smith (folklorist with many projects in mind), John Ramsay (has much material on film), and Suzanne Ford (grant writing). Others who have expressed interest in various ways include Barbara Ruth, Al Blank, Margherita Davis (talking about Joe Delaney), Alan Winston, Judy Grunberg, Sharon Green, Gladys Cerrina, Nicolas Broadbridge (who mentions Betty Chater and Marjorie Fennessy on the east side of the Atlantic), Carol Ferlazzo, and more. Danny W. has spoken to Fried, and she is amenable to his working on a Fried Herman project. He can think about how to proceed, keeping in mind that Fried has a Nov 22, 1998 event in NYC, and her Lenox, Mass. weekend on June 11-13, 1999. One approach could be to name particular worthy subjects, and suggest who might be the people most appropriate to work with those subjects, in terms of geographical convenience, familiarity with subject matter, having necessary skills, availability of equipment and funding (if needed), and imponderables like being comfortable with working together. And yes, funding and grants will be important, so I hope they are looked into by those in a position to do so, and equipment availability as well. Since many possibly interested folks are outside the e-mail world and may have no idea these ideas are being explored, some discussion should be included in future issues of the CDSS News and elsewhere. Let's bring in more support. A philosophical question: Back on May 22, Sharon Green asked, "Does CDSS need/want to set up a committee to help coordinate such projects?" Good question. A committee of SOME kind, under WHATEVER auspices, would probably be helpful, to prevent confusion and avoid duplication, but sensitivity would be important, since so many of us care very much about these things, and have different ideas as to what's best. Let us treat gently with each other. Now, the subject matter. While it would be great to gather whatever material is available on Pat Shaw, to create some coherent and interesting (video) films on this unique man, that can be done in a leisurely manner. (It would be amusing and delightful if that "Margaret's Waltz" from 'Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman' could be included.) More pressing is to create permanent records of those LIVING masters still among us. Fried Herman, with her amazing body of work and unique teaching style, is an obvious candidate. Christine Helwig has also been mentioned by many as one who should be documented, and I understand that there's a fine video interview at a local cable station. Other names to be included, with varying degrees of urgency, are Helene Cornelius, Colin Hume, Gary Roodman, and many, many others. As to the format, I suggest a 2-pronged approach. By all means, prepare scholarly pieces and learning tools, but for each subject it would also be nice to have the simple overview -- what that person is like, what shaped them, and a sampling of their work. That's how *I* see it, anyway. \+++++Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" ++++++25-14 37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am) +++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:52:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:49:35 -0400 From: Daniel Walkowitz Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERMANENT RECORD, IN BRIEF To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980821114935.006d4c80-AT- is2.nyu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For the hamper. Christine Helvig has agreed to be interviewed by me (I am/have been on her Chelsea demo team). She also has an extensive library that she wishes to share with me. I will urge it be placed in an archive, probably the Lincoln Center dance collection of the NY Public. Danny Walkowitz At 11:08 PM 8/20/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Discussions will be taking place at English and English/American Weeks, >so here is some info drawn from recent ECD postings on this subject, plus >some misc thoughts, to act as a springboard. I'll see some of you there, >and others later on when I pick up future postings on my newly acquired >ECD DIGEST. I think some exciting things will get done, and I thank >those who have reacted enthusiastically. > >Among those who have offered to take an active part in some way are Danny >Walkowitz (historian, one book, 3 films), Stephanie Smith (folklorist >with many projects in mind), John Ramsay (has much material on film), and >Suzanne Ford (grant writing). Others who have expressed interest in >various ways include Barbara Ruth, Al Blank, Margherita Davis (talking >about Joe Delaney), Alan Winston, Judy Grunberg, Sharon Green, Gladys >Cerrina, Nicolas Broadbridge (who mentions Betty Chater and Marjorie >Fennessy on the east side of the Atlantic), Carol Ferlazzo, and more. > >Danny W. has spoken to Fried, and she is amenable to his working on a >Fried Herman project. He can think about how to proceed, keeping in mind >that Fried has a Nov 22, 1998 event in NYC, and her Lenox, Mass. weekend >on June 11-13, 1999. > >One approach could be to name particular worthy subjects, and suggest who >might be the people most appropriate to work with those subjects, in >terms of geographical convenience, familiarity with subject matter, >having necessary skills, availability of equipment and funding (if >needed), and imponderables like being comfortable with working together. >And yes, funding and grants will be important, so I hope they are looked >into by those in a position to do so, and equipment availability as well. > >Since many possibly interested folks are outside the e-mail world and may >have no idea these ideas are being explored, some discussion should be >included in future issues of the CDSS News and elsewhere. Let's bring in >more support. A philosophical question: Back on May 22, Sharon Green >asked, "Does CDSS need/want to set up a committee to help coordinate such >projects?" Good question. A committee of SOME kind, under WHATEVER >auspices, would probably be helpful, to prevent confusion and avoid >duplication, but sensitivity would be important, since so many of us care >very much about these things, and have different ideas as to what's best. > Let us treat gently with each other. > >Now, the subject matter. While it would be great to gather whatever >material is available on Pat Shaw, to create some coherent and >interesting (video) films on this unique man, that can be done in a >leisurely manner. (It would be amusing and delightful if that "Margaret's >Waltz" from 'Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman' could be included.) More >pressing is to create permanent records of those LIVING masters still >among us. Fried Herman, with her amazing body of work and unique >teaching style, is an obvious candidate. Christine Helwig has also been >mentioned by many as one who should be documented, and I understand that >there's a fine video interview at a local cable station. Other names to >be included, with varying degrees of urgency, are Helene Cornelius, Colin >Hume, Gary Roodman, and many, many others. > >As to the format, I suggest a 2-pronged approach. By all means, prepare >scholarly pieces and learning tools, but for each subject it would also >be nice to have the simple overview -- what that person is like, what >shaped them, and a sampling of their work. That's how *I* see it, >anyway. > >\+++++Sol "Roundman" Weber --- "So many rounds, so little time" >++++++25-14 37th St, Astoria, NY 11103; 718-278-4389 (after 11am) >+++++Urgent message? If no immediate response, please phone. > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > Daniel J. Walkowitz Director, Metropolitan Studies, and Professor of History 285 Mercer Street, rm 703, New York University New York, New York 10003-6607 tel. (212) 998-8091 fax (212) 995-4371 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:51:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:44:50 -0500 From: Charlene Charette Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: OT: ISO Tomorrow the Fox To: English Country Dance List Message-ID: <35DDA402.72F7A124-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is a bit off-topic, but I thought someone here might be able to help. I have a friend who is looking for a vocal version of "Tomorrow the Fox will Come to Town" (for listening, not dancing). A search of the web found: How the World Wags-Social Music for a 17th C Englishman by City Waites on Hyperion. Does anyone know if this recording has vocals? If there are any other currently-in-print versions? I offered to loan her the Pyewackett album, but she is looking for something in print. Thanks, --Charlene -- When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil. -- Max Lerner ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:17:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:17:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: weekend reading To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Comrades, I expect to spend the weekend reading a new book, Skiles Howard: "The Politics of Courtly Dance in Early Modern England." Perhaps I will learn something. I hope so. See youse by the pool, Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:58:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:58:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Emil Stecher Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: OT: ISO Tomorrow the Fox To: English Country Dance List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Charlene Charette wrote: > help. I have a friend who is looking for a vocal version of "Tomorrow > the Fox will Come to Town" (for listening, not dancing). A search of > the web found: How the World Wags-Social Music for a 17th C Englishman > by City Waites on Hyperion. Does anyone know if this recording has > vocals? Yes, it has vocals. Rosemary Stecher (using svartorm-AT- netaxs.com) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:35:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:31:40 -0400 From: Benjamin Stein Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: OT: ISO Tomorrow the Fox To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199808211732_MC2-56F4-1C9D-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Telll your friend to try "Mudcat Cafe" on the web. Haven't perused it lately but it has the words to about 10,000 Folk, Blues and Popular songs. Ben Stein ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:23:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:23:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: OT: ISO Tomorrow the Fox To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: English Country Dance List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Charlene Charette wrote: > This is a bit off-topic, but I thought someone here might be able to > help. I have a friend who is looking for a vocal version of "Tomorrow > the Fox will Come to Town" (for listening, not dancing). A search of > the web found: How the World Wags-Social Music for a 17th C Englishman > by City Waites on Hyperion. Does anyone know if this recording has > vocals? Yes, it does, and it's an appropriately rowdy arrangement. There are also 2 other ballads set to English dance tunes on the recording: The Jolly Broom Man (Jamaica) and Seldom Cleanly (Upon a Summer's Day). On the LP version, the words are printed on the jacket, but I don't know if that's also true of the CD version (which I assume this is). Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:54:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:50:45 -0400 (EDT) From: CF1125-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: flirtatiousness in siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2e09727c.35e02c46-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT <> Some years ago, when she was camp manager at Pinewoods, Jacqueline Schwab wore a T-shirt that said - on the front - "If you can't dance to the music" - and on the back "Go bowling." Someone else mentioned that she had gotten it from Helene Cornelius, but I can't confirm that. Carl Friedman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:17:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:15:20 +0100 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: UK / USA dance comparison To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have finally got my web page comparing the dance scenes in the UK and the US up. It can be found at: http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:55:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:55:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Harmonica Boy Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: UK / USA dance comparison To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk wrote: > I have finally got my web page comparing the dance scenes in the UK > and the US up. It can be found at: > > http://www.hottub.demon.co.uk/dqcc.htm Bob -- this was an interesting read, thanks! I haven't on this mailing list very long, so I've missed a lot of the discussion about this, though I've caught references. It was nice to see it laid out in such an organized comparison. A question from an American, though: how exactly does the "Playford Plod" go? I'm envisioning a set of sullen folk trudging drearily through the dance and not enjoying themselves, but I'm certain that's not right! What are the characteristics of the walk? Thanks again, --will Will's Hole in the Web http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale Folk Dance Club's Page http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~quale/dance "Faith manages." -- Delenn ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:54:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:52:09 -0400 From: elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com Subject: Shaw & Sharp Siding To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35E2DDA8.D5FE7FA7-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199808071513.KAA07805-AT- staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> I'm just now catching up on the siding discussion. Over a decade ago, Don Theyken and I decided to try an experiment in Ann Arbor, where English dancing was just getting a local foot hold. Although we both learned "Sharp" siding ("curvy" siding) first, we knew that the Shaw side-by-side figure was in fact the more historically accurate. So we decided that we would use Shaw siding all the time, as the default figure, except when we couldn't figure out how to make a dance work with it. There are a few dances written specifically with the Sharp siding in mind (Fentarlarick being one: it just doesn't work the other way). For the most part, after years of using it, I find that there are many dances where some aspect of the figure becomes much more pronounced - in a good way - with the Shaw siding. For instance, the siding figure in Newcastle produces first a "+" and then a very distinct "X" formation. When this is pointed out, dancers really experience the whole set in a way that they don't when siding on the corners of the square. Similarly, the half-side/turn sgl sequence in Nonesuch is *very* nice when done as side fwd right shld turn sgl left (away from ptr) to place side fwd left shld turn sgl right (away from ptr) to place The disadvantages have been few: - when we have visiting callers, they may be caught by surprise as when they see siding, or (worse) call a dance that requires Sharp siding and have to teach basics to otherwise good dancers - when dancers travel to other locations and encounter the other figure and are told it's "the right way" or "the norm" and wonder why they never saw it before - there are a few dances where it's harder to interpret Someone mentioned the way "Shaw" siding is presented in the US as a more wooden alternative. When you *start* with it as the default, all the flirtation - and the many times that it contributes to the patterns or flow of the dance - are easy to find. On the other hand, when you're trying to get people to switch from what they've always done, resistance often comes out as wooden dancing. Erna-Lynne Bogue ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:40:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:39:25 +0100 From: George Marshall Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Tropical Dance Vacations To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199808261536.KAA04317-AT- dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Dancer, I would like to let you know that I've established the dates for the 1999 Tropical Dance Vacation to be held in the Caribbean on St. Croix, USVI. *New* for 1999 is an English Dance week, February 9-16 with Bare Necessities providing the music; Brad Foster and Bruce Hamilton will be leading the dances. The Contra/Square week will run from February 18-25 with Wild Asparagus, The Clayfoot Strutters, and Nightingale. George Marshall and Kathy Anderson will be calling the dances. If you would like more information on either of the dance weeks please check out the web site (URL below) or send me a message. Best regards, George Marshall Tropical Dance Vacation PO Box 602 Belchertown, MA 01007 413-323-9604 gmarshal-AT- tiac.net http://www.he.net/~bmd/TDV.99.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:27:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: philippe.callens-AT- uia.ua.ac.be Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:27:28 +0200 From: Philippe Callens Subject: Re: UK / USA dance comparison To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <35E542A0.2D60-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Bob Archer's comparison on the UK/US dance scenes is a good outline of what a dancer may expect on either side of the Atlantic. Not only for dancers, but for callers alike! As a Belgian, I was lucky to have danced and travelled in both countries before I did any major calling. That has helped a lot, I feel. I'd like to add a few things to the subject that may, or may not, be of interest to this list's readers. And who knows Bob may like to include some to this text? Dance scene in England: - A typical British term, still odd to me, is: "Dancers' dance". This pleonastic term may be unclear to any non-British dancer. So I'd suggest to add it to Bob's text. - Bob says that most English callers would call two dances in the same formation in a row. I haven't experienced that in England very much. - Since many dances offer a mix of Playford, contras, squares, the style of the dance bands tends to be less distinguished, say a bit generic. This hasn't anything to do woth the quality of the music provided. - The one thing I do not agree with, is Bob's impression of tempo. I feel quite sure that for Playford style dances the tempo in the UK is slower, sometimes much slower than in the US. That may explain the so-called Playford Plod. As a dancer, I do like to dance slowly, but there are British recordings that are so slow that one wonders how we should move to that sort of music (Arthur Cornelius calls this a measured walk!). The same is true for live music. On the other hand, I feel that some music provided for ECD in the US, is too fast (and so the dancing gets a bit rowdy). I can still remember rushing through "Hambleton's Round O" one night at Pinewoods in 1994. As for contras, the music in the UK tends to be faster than in the US. That's certainly true if you think of the typical New England style band. However, in the Midwest, for example, contras are sometimes done to old-time string band music. I have danced contras at Elkins, WV, at about 130 bpm, to the music of the Volo Bogtrotters. English dance scene in the States: - Longways for as many as will are more popular than set dances. Also, they are usually done more than 7 times through. Set dances are often done two or three times through. - The programme in the US is not as large as in the UK. In other words, a core programme of mostly classic dances is kept alive and popular. Interestingly enough, some of these classics are virtually unknown in the UK (for example, From Aberdeen as a triple minor longways). Style Bob writes: "Although the dances are walked, the recommended American Playford style has the weight forward, stays up on the balls of the feet, and puts a fair amount of energy into the dancing - a far cry from the Playford Plod." Well, be that as it may, it used to be that way in the UK, too. In the 1980s, callers like Mike Jones and David Anderton all paid attention to style, carriage, etc. during their lessons for the NVS in the Netherlands. I learnt a lot form them! True that there isn't much interest for and attention to style in general in the UK in the 1990s. Two of my very best dancing experiences happened on either side of the Atlantic: Tom Cook's Burton Manor Weekend 1992 and English Week at Pinewoods 1997! Very different, but equalli inspiring. Yours for better dancing, Philippe Callens Antwerp, Belgium ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:48:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:35:25 +0100 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: UK / USA dance comparison To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Harmonica Boy wrote: > A question from an American, though: how exactly does the "Playford Plod" > go? I'm envisioning a set of sullen folk trudging drearily through the > dance and not enjoying themselves, but I'm certain that's not right! What > are the characteristics of the walk? You actually have it pretty much correct. The only thing I would change in your description would be to say " ... and not looking as though they are enjoying themselves". I don't mean to imply that everyone should be grinning inanely, leaping about all over the place or bringing the house down with applause after every dance, but there are times when I've seen (or been one of) the caller and musicians working like crazy on stage and getting no reaction from the audience at all. I assume they're enjoying otherwise they'd be doing something else but a little feedback would be nice. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:49:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:01:33 +0100 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: UK / USA dance comparison To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Philippe Callens wrote: > Bob Archer's comparison on the UK/US dance scenes is a good outline of > what a dancer may expect on either side of the Atlantic. Not only for > dancers, but for callers alike! As a Belgian, I was lucky to have danced > and travelled in both countries before I did any major calling. That has > helped a lot, I feel. That would have helped me. I'm sure I've already told the story of telling 400 contra dancers at Seattle's Folklife festival to do a reel of four and had them all look at me blankly. Fortunately Phil Katz (who was dancing half way down the hall ) shouted out "hey" very loudly and everyone moved. > I'd like to add a few things to the subject that may, or may not, be of > interest to this list's readers. And who knows Bob may like to include > some to this text? I'll be looking to update the page so if anyone has any comments please let me know. > Dance scene in England: > - A typical British term, still odd to me, is: "Dancers' dance". This > pleonastic term may be unclear to any non-British dancer. So I'd suggest > to add it to Bob's text. I think it's an odd term as well. It's also pretty insulting to any other dance form. Unfortunately it's in relatively common use. The other term that is sometimes used is "social dance". There is a discussion going on about terms on the English ceilidh list at the moment. > - Bob says that most English callers would call two dances in the same > formation in a row. I haven't experienced that in England very much. This does depend heavily on the caller. It might just be the style that's prevalent in my area at the moment. I seem to recall Hugh Stewart commenting on this a little while ago. > - Since many dances offer a mix of Playford, contras, squares, the style > of the dance bands tends to be less distinguished, say a bit generic. > This hasn't anything to do woth the quality of the music provided. Are you referring to style between bands or the style within a band when they're playing for a contra as opposed to Playford? One of the things that has struck me about the US dance scene is that dancers are keen to make the "ECD experience" very different to the "contra experience". As I say on the page, I do worry that in the UK we might end up creating an undistinguished mix of the two styles. > - The one thing I do not agree with, is Bob's impression of tempo. I > feel quite sure that for Playford style dances the tempo in the UK is > slower, sometimes much slower than in the US. That may explain the > so-called Playford Plod. As a dancer, I do like to dance slowly, but > there are British recordings that are so slow that one wonders how we > should move to that sort of music (Arthur Cornelius calls this a > measured walk!). The same is true for live music. > On the other hand, I feel that some music provided for ECD in the US, is > too fast (and so the dancing gets a bit rowdy). I can still remember > rushing through "Hambleton's Round O" one night at Pinewoods in 1994. > > As for contras, the music in the UK tends to be faster than in the US. > That's certainly true if you think of the typical New England style > band. However, in the Midwest, for example, contras are sometimes done > to old-time string band music. I have danced contras at Elkins, WV, at > about 130 bpm, to the music of the Volo Bogtrotters. I think I should remove the comment on tempos from the page. They seem to be so variable according to band and area that any general comments are bound to be wrong. I'd be interested to know which British recordings Philippe thinks are too slow. I have some of the EFDSS Playford recordings from the 50s and some of those move at a cracking pace. There's an awesome version of "Goddesses" with some very modern American contra style piano on it. I had a long discussion about tempos (tempi?) with Chris Dewhurst just before he and Sue recorded the "Playford Pops" album. The discussion started from the fact that I like Queens Jig to be played quite slowly, Chris thinks the tune works better slightly faster than I would like it played. We had this discussion at a dance weekend so we actually got the chance to get a set together and experiment. About the only conclusion I really came to was that the dance and tune felt very different at different speeds. > - The programme in the US is not as large as in the UK. In other words, > a core programme of mostly classic dances is kept alive and popular. > Interestingly enough, some of these classics are virtually unknown in > the UK (for example, From Aberdeen as a triple minor longways). I think that the "standard" set of Playford dances in the US is almost entirely distinct to the "standard" set in the UK. When I called at one of Seattle's English dances I did pretty much my standard Playford repertoire, most of which was new to the band. When I go to an English dance in the US many of the dances are new to me. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:08:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: morganj-AT- iupui.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: US-UK programs To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was interested in the comment: "I think that the "standard" set of Playford dances in the US is almost entirely distinct to the "standard" set in the UK. When I called at one of Seattle's English dances I did pretty much my standard Playford repertoire, most of which was new to the band. When I go to an English dance in the US many of the dances are new to me." I presume the US repertoire reflects what's taught at dance camps and the major centers. What dances do you find new, and what in your repertoire was new in Seattle? Jim Morgan morganj-AT- iupui.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:28:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:28:30 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Railing Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Origin (was Re: flirtatiousness in siding) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Steven Corrsin may have been joking, but you weren't, so I have to ask: What evidence is there for an Irish origin to English Country Dance? --Mary Railing On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Michael Barraclough wrote: > Eric Praetzel wrote: > > Similarily, since all English dance is derived from Italian dance > > Proof? There was certainly an influence but anything more is > conjecture. In fact it is more, rather than less, likely that English > Country dancing (structure and choreographic units) went to and was used > in Italy in the late C17 and C18. The origins of English Country Dance > are still a matter for speculation and academic research but from my > work todate there is a good chance that the origin was actually Ireland. > > Michael Barraclough > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:51:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:49:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul and Victoria Bestock Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Home from hospital! (Personal news) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Today is my first day sitting up at the computer for a few minutes between pain bouts, and gosh, you guys have been talking up a storm! I don't think I'll be able to catch up with all the interesting conversation! Just want to let those of you who know me, know that I'm home, recovering from a ruptured apendix that went undiagnosed for a week before exploratory surgery found what the matter was. The gastro guy says its the worst case of appendicitis he's ever seen,and he's going to be presenting my case at a conference,because of its "interesting atypical presentation" that had them fooled on the diagnosis, allowing a week of peritonitis to go untreated. Recovery is going more slowly than "normal" But it isn't normal to have a an undiagnosed ruptured appendix for over a week, (and survive it) and to be trying at the same time to recover from malnutrition (I've lost 15 pounds in three weeks), exhaustion (due to pain, no more than 2-3 hours of sleep a night for the last three weeks), deconditioning (Monday I couldn't stand up unassisted.) and the adverse reactions to the drugs they used to save me (fibrilations, depressed breathing, nausea, etc.) . The very least of my problems is the 6 inch cut down the belly-- hardly any pain from that compared to the internal cramping, that has me feeling I've been in late stage labor for three weeks. The hospital experience was its own nightmare. My chemical injuries make me intolerant to most drugs, and highly reactive to very minute amounts tof solvents, cleansers, fragrances and disinfectants. The hosptial made some attempts to accmmodate me, but didn't understand the seriousness of the condition-- the short version is that I'm lucky to have survived the cardiac fibrilations started by the anesthetic and worsened by the presence of perfumed nurses in the room. I think the third medication they tried is the one that got my heart working again. I won't be dancing for a while, but I'll be at Suttle Lake, hanging out with friends, listening to the music, communing with trees, practicing walking. I'll try to catch up on some of the stuff you guys have been talking about, and in the meantime, I listen to tapes of ECD music to remind me of where I'm headed, if not next month, the month after. I miss you all. See ya dancing one of these days! Vicky Bestock