Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:51:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:54:48 -0500 From: dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712012254.RAA06284-AT- intrepid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello from West Virginia: I have a perhaps rather delicate question that I thought I'd ask of the good folks on this list. I love to dance. Recently, I have started dating a really nice fellow (I'm also male). He has indicated at least a passing interest in dance. I'd love to gradually get him to start coming to some of the various contra & English country dances with me. It would be wonderful to feel comfortable doing at least some of the dances in the course of an evening with him. My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. Keep on dancing, Dan Gillespie Dan Gillespie dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net Dan_Gillespie-AT- usgs.gov Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:32:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:35:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IQNX20XWEI94NY7N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Dan wrote: > My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the >greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've >attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, >except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this >subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. As far as I can tell, this varies considerably by region, and I suspect it varies considerably with age and general mellowness of the dancers. I have absolutely no idea what the story is in West Virginia. I'm told that in England, men _will not_ country dance together. What I've seen on the West Coast of the US is women often dancing together by preference, occasionally driven by gender imbalance, and men very occasionally dancing together by preference, somewhat more often because of gender imbalance. (At contra dances here, if there are "too many men" you'll see a lot of men sitting out, and some of them will leave the dance. This is not so strongly pronounced at English dances. I sometimes ask other "extra" men to dance, and am usually accepted at English dances and declined at contras.) [The men I see occasionally dancing together by preference are usually men assumed to be straight, as in being married to women.] But I think that isn't really what you're asking. I cannot speak for anywhere but the Bay Area, where I live and mostly dance. Here, at least, I wouldn't expect there to be any particular problem with an out male couple that danced several dances together each evening; I haven't seen this, but there hasn't been a problem with out female couples that do this. (The un-coupled dancing lesbians I know of tend to dance as bi.) This is all a good deal easier with English, where the parts are usually quite symmetrical, than with contra where the roles differ so much. I hope this works out well in _your_ community. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:33:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:37:10 -0500 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't imagine a single reason for feeling uncomfortable dancing together. Presuming that you keep within the same bounds as any couple for proper out-in-public behavior (no serious petting etc etc etc) on what grounds could anyone object or feel uncomfortable themselves? I realize of course that one person's bounds aren't another's but your dance community will show you the way. I've felt uncomfortable in the past when people leer, ogle, grope etc or slobber all over each other, or gaze much too longingly into each others eyes, but hey - that's me.... sorta takes the mystery out of it I guess or something. And I particularly dislike it when someone (man OR woman) does any of these things to me without the slightest bit of interest indicated on my part... Since ECD is a social dance and has a great deal of couple-ness as part of it, I'd say go for it! Be happy and go out there and dance! Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:43:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wechsler Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712012345.SAA08391-AT- spork.bbn.com> References: <199712012254.RAA06284-AT- intrepid.net> Michael Cicone runs a gender-free English dance in Jamaica Plain, Boston, MA. I'd guess there must be similar dances in most places where there is a lot of ECD, but I don't know about your area. I understand that people of all sexual preferences attend and enjoy Michael's dances, although I haven't had the pleasure. -A ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:26:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:29:32 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dan, You ask [after some relevant stuff snipped out] > My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the > greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've > attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, > except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this > subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. In Ann Arbor we do have male couples by preference sometimes, and at least one dancer seems very comfortable in that role now. But I think there was a period of "testing the waters", so to speak, to get a sense for how the basically straight community would react. Most of the Ann Arbor folks seemed to accept it quite gracefully, but we do draw from a larger area than the town itself, and not everybody who comes to the dances here appreciates the local mindset on this topic. I think that those in our area who don't find this acceptable don't come back, and our local dance organization strongly supports participation of dancers regardless of sexual preference, so we don't consider this an appreciable loss. We are glad to have folks dancing however they want to dance. In most of the dances, however, the usual gender roles are generally recognized, but folks of any preference can and do mix up those roles from time to time, and aside from sometimes confusing some of the newer dancers a bit, it fits in fine. It does seem, however, that not all of the single-sex couples who want to dance feel comfortable in the regular dance scene. There is a gender-free dance in Ann Arbor, too, and it gets a larger number of same-sex couples, as well as a fair number of the dancers who also attend the gender-structured dances. As a dancer who enjoys the gender differentiation, but who also enjoys dancing in either role with partners of either sex, I feel that I enjoy the dances with gender roles more than those without, but I hope that the gender-role dances can be as welcoming as possible to individuals and couples of all types. I think most our local dancers share this hope, judging by by the way they respond. As a dance leader as well as a dancer, I retain gender roles in dances that have them traditionally or as structural components. As a dancer dancing a woman's role, I feel privileged that I am allowed to do that, and as a leader, I accept people dancing in whichever role suits them at the moment, but I retain the traditional nomenclature. I do not accept the idea that either men or women are degraded by being called by a gender-referencing term which is different from their natural gender. I regard both roles as having their own dignity, and whoever dances in a role accrues the dignity of that role; and if it is different from their natural role, they also retain their natural dignity, unless they choose to lose it by undignified behavior. Good dancing! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor P.S. For some good fun with folks who can take whomever comes at them in the dance set, a turn once-and-a-half at the end of Barbarini's Tambourine isn't bad... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 22:09:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Dan Gillespie wrote: > My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the > greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've > attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, > except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this > subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. As other recipients have mentioned in other notices, it seems to depend on where you are geographically. In the Baltimore-Washington area, where I live, it doesn't seem acceptable, unfortunately. Women do frequently dance together when there is an imbalance, and some men do also, but none of the regular attendees at either the regularly scheduled Baltimore or Washington dances are openly gay, nor is there any effort or seeming interest in getting the gay community in either city involved. (And the gay communities in both cities are quite large, and there seems to be some interest in this sort of thing - there's a gay square dance group that meets regularly, for instance - so this strikes me as a serious omission.) The contra dancers are even worse - in fact, some men won't even dance with women who aren't wearing skirts! Speaking for myself, I think dancing is a wonderful way to relate to a person (and can tell you a lot about a person too!). If the person you're dating is open to the possibility of attending an English dance, I'd say go for it. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:52:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:42:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Dan: I think it's going to be different for each local dance. Sorry to give an ambiguous answer, but dance groups, especially ECD groups, differ an awful lot in their social attitudes. I know that in St. Louis' ECD group lesbian and bi women have regularly danced together and been completely accepted. We haven't had "out" gay men in the group on a regular basis, so I can't say how they would be accepted, but I think our group would be cool with it. And I'm fairly sure the local contra group would be cool -- certainly men dance with one another at our Kimmswick dance weekend, quite aside from gender-imbalance stuff, and women dance together all the time. I know in the Boston area there's a regular gender-free dance scene, incorporating both ECD and contra dances. But how your group will respond, you probably know better than we do. Meanwhile, congratulations and best wishes! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:20:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:23:46 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: music on the web (SCA++) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712022123.QAA15258-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text Hi one and all. I've been putting music on my web page in various forms. This is mainly a collection of SCA dance music and I'm trying to get away from EC; but there will be some EC as well. I've started with the music of Mistress Ellisif. The sheet music is available on the page (basically freely-copyable for not-for-profit groups like the SCA) and so are the wopping big WAVE files (upto CD quality for blasting CDs). I've just setup a Real Audio server on my machine so people who have installed the free (or full blown) version can now listen to the music without having to wait for a big file to download. Basically Real Audio files are compressed by about a factor of 40 (trading off sound quality) and they play as they download (assuming your internet connection is fast enough). The smallest files I have are designed for a 28k baud modem. Check 'em out and let me know what you think. There will not be any recordings of real musicians; just converted MIDI files done with a good sound card (no not a NoiseBlaster 16 or 32). The problem being getting permissions. I'd love to have real recordings and will work on getting permissions ... http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/ellisif.html or more generally http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/sca-music.html or even more generally the page in my sig. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:03:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:06:21 -0600 From: Mike or Norma Briggs Subject: Re: music on the web (SCA++) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3484865D.6644-AT- execpc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712022123.QAA15258-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Eric Praetzel wrote: > > Hi one and all [etc] Sorry for dumb, but could Eric or someone explain what SCA dance music is? I've never heard of it, and I've been around both music and dance for longer than I want to remember. Am I the only dumb one? Mike Briggs -- ************************************************* Norma and Mike Briggs 1.608.2571600 (voice) Briggs Law Office 1.608.2571611 (fax) 1914 Monroe St Madison WI 53711-2057 USA brigglaw-AT- execpc.com ------------------------------------------------- A N E I G H B O R H O O D L A W O F F I C E ************************************************* ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:52:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: More Bernard Thomas Music ? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199712022252.RAA00907-AT- freenet6.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Have any more volumes of the "Playford Dances in 4-part settings", by Bernard Thomas, been published? I've got the first one and like it very much. Also, is the publisher, London Pro Musica, on the Internet? Thanks, Walter Brown Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:12:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:15:47 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: music on the web (SCA++) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712030315.WAA16651-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text Mike asked: > Sorry for dumb, but could Eric or someone explain what SCA dance music is The SCA is a a medieval cult err group :) Society for Creative Anachronism Actually they encompas recreating all aspects of medieval and renaissance life. Some of us like to dance in real costumes to real music done on period instruments. Sometimes we don't have those handy and so I've set up a web page to spread the music. Many of the dances tend to be 1, 2, or 3 couples in varous formations. Some of the really crazy ones take something like 4 men and 1 woman (now you know what to do with all of those extra men at dances!!!) - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 03:18:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: philippe.callens-AT- uia.ua.ac.be Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:19:22 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: New Years Workshop, Mortsel, Belgium To: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk, eba-AT- umich.edu, Veerle.Fack-AT- rug.ac.be, 106474.2112-AT- compuserve.com, dvorana-AT- login.cz, pwb-AT- mitre.org, rpg-AT- inforamp.net, HCORNELIUS-AT- mail.air-inc.com, WenCrouch-AT- aol.com, bernadette.custers-AT- vandale.nl, daa-AT- raayland.nl, michael-AT- dagnall.nl, b.g.donkersloot-AT- dnkrs.edith.antenna.nl, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, W.W.K.v.Eck.d.Vries-AT- urc.tue.nl, jmg-AT- scanview.com, 100331.3540-AT- compuserve.com, 100116.165-AT- compuserve.com, skevra-AT- marlboro.edu, ekorf-AT- worldonline.nl, lammersm-AT- jet.let.vu.nl, dans_lca-AT- knoware.nl, VANNAUI-AT- bp.com, madi.nelson-AT- wanadoo.fr, hall.nielsen-AT- glo.be, j.paul-AT- incaa.nl, l_ramsay-AT- hotmail.com, trio-AT- euronet.nl, Donald.Ross-AT- hks.se, jschreib-AT- eps.agfa.be, hugh-AT- sdl.ug.eds.com, Kerstin-AT- ic.uva.nl, Frans.Tromp-AT- net.HCC.nl, luc.vermeiren-AT- sd.be, vermeirl-AT- dma.be, fredz-AT- pi.net CC: aads-AT- club.innet.be Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34854E4A.4F00-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herewith you are all invited to the AADS NEW YEAR'S WORKSHOP & AFTERNOON DANCE "BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC" at Mortsel, Belgium, January 4, 1998 Every year AADS sponsors a New Year's Workshop on country dancing, followed by an afternoon dance. This year, Philippe Callens will teach the dances of the CD Both Sides of the Atlantic. This CD played by the Little Tinkers was published by the AADS last summer and contains a nice and not too complicated fare of English and American country dances. A great occasion for dancers and callers alike to improve their skills. The CD and the accompanying booklet will be available during the workshop. The morning workshop is followed by an afternoon dance featuring a variety of country dances. Although it is possible to attend only either workshop or dance, we invite you to participate all day long. Please apply for this event in advance. E-mail AADS at aads-AT- club.innet.be Venue: Den Wolschaerder, Liersesteenweg 314, 2640 Mortsel, Belgium. When: Sunday January 4, 1998, from 11 am to 1.15 pm and from 2.30 to 5.30 pm. Price per half day: BEF 125 In the USA, the CD is available through CDSS; in the UK through Cotswold Music; everybode else can purchase it through the AADS sales division. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 07:24:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:26:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. Beware. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 07:24:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:26:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. Beware. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:48:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:52:05 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712031652.LAA00874-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text Steve wrote: > The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live > music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, This experience has been oh so educational for me. I'm trying to get music out to people. "Freely copyable within the SCA" often means that you must copy it with all attributions and it is expected that if you are going to record it; that you have to get the arrangers permission. We often do public demonstrations and little did I suspect that the creater, arranger and musicians all have to give permission. Luckily Playford et al are long dead, the musicians and arrangers distant and everyone ignorant. Either way; what I have on the web is all synth'd; not one real musician. Ok, at some stage real instruments were recordered so I imagine that there were real musicians. Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the music (hence my comment about cards which use samples ie Gravis and cards that don't NoiseBlaster aka SoundBlaster 16/32/64).. For the files that are on the web page I have permission from the arranger and that is why I can't put the MIDI files there. They are small and sound only as good as your sound card is. The other files I have there (WAVE, RealAudio) sound as good as the card they were created on (not really a card; I used some software that emulates the Gravis sound cards - TiMidity) or they sound as good as the compression scheme used. ie I've created 2 types of RealAudio files. One can be heard over a 14k modem but it fairly distorted; while the other sounds half decent considering the file size (ie lacking clarity and brilliance but it is not really muddled as you would expect by lowering the bandwidth). So the files are there. If you've wondered about audio via the WWW I've got some RealAudio files up and running. I've tested them on Mac, Linux and Winblows 95 machines. I'm interested in hearing from people who have played the files via a 28k modem. I don't know which of the 2 RealAudio files they would be playing. I've made the higher quality RealAudio file available and anyone can play that (assuming that you have installed the RealAudio player). If other people want to put music onto the web; this is one way to do it. I'd put up some recordings of real musicians; except that the way music tapes get spread in the SCA (minus attributions); I'm not sure where half the stuff I have is from. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:39:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:42:21 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. Excuse me? My perception is that it was the anachronists who were "hounded off the list" and banished to an SCA-Dance list where we would not bother the "real scholars" who regard it as something done by performers for spectators. If Sharp had taken the attitude these academics do, the ECD movement would not exist. (When I pointed this out to one of them, she replied "But that's FOLK DANCE", as though a reconstruction from Playford was inherently less "worthy" of "protection".) Will Linden wlinden-AT- panix.com http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/ Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:57:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:00:12 -0600 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34859E2C.5DD1-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Will Linden wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > > > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. > Excuse me? My perception is that it was the anachronists who were > "hounded off the list" and banished to an SCA-Dance list where we would > not bother the "real scholars" who regard it as something done by > performers for spectators. OK folks, let's not start *this* flame war again. There were lots of ill manner on *both* sides of this debate. --Charlene (also an SCAer, but sometimes ashamed to admit it) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:36:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:40:19 -0500 From: dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712031840.NAA09808-AT- intrepid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello to the list! I want to send out my deepest thanks to everyone who has responded so openly & positively to my question about same sex dance partners! I am all fired up to give this a try now. Thanks to Alan, MAry Beth, Allan W, Eric, Dawn & Paul & everyone who responded to me privately. Your moral support really means a lot to me. With my fingers crossed for good luck, Dan Dan Gillespie dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net Dan_Gillespie-AT- usgs.gov Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:31:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:34:17 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I > dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) > > The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live > music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to > distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn > well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) > > Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. > Absolutely! (I'm a professional musician, and am only too well aware of the numerous ways professional musicians can be cheated out of their royalties - the method above being but one.) In addition, the SCA group's actions in this regard constitute infringement of copyright, which is simply illegal & can get you some nasty fines if you're caught. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:31:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:34:17 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I > dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) > > The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live > music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to > distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn > well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) > > Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. > Absolutely! (I'm a professional musician, and am only too well aware of the numerous ways professional musicians can be cheated out of their royalties - the method above being but one.) In addition, the SCA group's actions in this regard constitute infringement of copyright, which is simply illegal & can get you some nasty fines if you're caught. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:52:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:47:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Eric Praetzel wrote: > I'm trying to get music out to people. "Freely copyable within the SCA" often > means that you must copy it with all attributions and it is expected that if > you are going to record it; that you have to get the arrangers permission. Unless you have gotten said arranger's permission to copy and circulate his/her arrangements, circulating them is a violation of copyright. > We often do public demonstrations and little did I suspect that the creater, > arranger and musicians all have to give permission. Luckily Playford et al > are long dead, the musicians and arrangers distant and everyone ignorant. If you're using someone else's arrangement or recorded music for a public performance without permission or compensation you are legally liable, and the fact that the musicians and arrangers are distant means that you're in the same moral position as someone who steals from someone's house while they're out of town. Just because they don't know you're doing it doesn't make it legal. Or right. In the United States, the performance rights organizations (ASCAP & BMI) are in charge of selling the right to use a musician's performance, and while I have quite a few quarrels with the way they work, the law is very clear. To put it bluntly, you could get sued for a LOT of money. And if you're using the excuse that the musicians and arrangers are distant and "everyone ignorant", that probably sets you up for punitive damages right there. And, IMHO, rightly so. > Either way; what I have on the web is all synth'd; not one real musician. Ok, at > some stage real instruments were recordered so I imagine that there were real > musicians. Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the > music If I understand you correctly, you are sampling recordings by other musicians, and using the samples to generate MIDI files. The law on sampling is new, and still developing, but it's certainly been held in the courts that using the *sound* of someone's recording as an element in a new recording without permission or royalties is grounds for lotsa lawsuits. I don't know what cases, if any, have been brought over the generation of MIDI files, but if you're using the arrangements from a pre-existing recording without permission or royalties, again you're letting yourself in for a big lawsuit, and IMHO again rightly so. Please quit stealing other people's work. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:25:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:27:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IQRCC7OQMA94XBJN-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Folks -- Could people stop beating up on Eric for a while? As far as I can tell, he has gone to some trouble to produce a web site free of copyright violation - more below. I think Steve Corrsin's post has predisposed some of us to read more evil into what Eric says than is actually there. I'll argue in the rest of the post with Paul's interpretations, because I have them handy. Eric can say whether or not I've understood him correctly. Before proceeding, I'll mention that I'm not an SCA member and it's not my scene at all. I do have some friends who are members. Also, paying attention on the RENDANCE list has shown me that some SCA dance people are extremely serious about their scholarship and about intellectual property rights; some aren't. It isn't a good idea to lump them all together. Oh, and I speak only as myself, without any authority I might be presumed (by the ill-informed) to have as list-owner. > = Eric + = Paul >On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Eric Praetzel wrote: > I'm trying to get music out to people. "Freely copyable within the SCA" often > means that you must copy it with all attributions and it is expected that if > you are going to record it; that you have to get the arrangers permission. +Unless you have gotten said arranger's permission to copy and circulate +his/her arrangements, circulating them is a violation of copyright. I think Eric is talking about arrangements that have been made by SCA people. The arrangers mark them "Freely copyable within the SCA" by which they grant that permission to copy and circulate; one is required to retain attributions, and to go back and get explicit permission if one intends to record them. > We often do public demonstrations and little did I suspect that the creater, > arranger and musicians all have to give permission. Luckily Playford et al >are long dead, the musicians and arrangers distant and everyone ignorant. Note that "little did I suspect" is in the past tense. Now he knows, and he's trying to do better. That "luckily" applies to not getting into trouble for past acts, not as a moral cover for continuing to do this. [My question here: If one buys Marshall Barron's books of ECD arrangements, is one required to write for explicit permission in order to actually use them? I can certainly understand needing to do this, and to pay a royalty, if one records them, but what about just playing them for dancing?] +If you're using someone else's arrangement or recorded music for a public +performance without permission or compensation you are legally liable, +and the fact that the musicians and arrangers are distant means that +you're in the same moral position as someone who steals from someone's +house while they're out of town. Just because they don't know you're +doing it doesn't make it legal. Or right. In the United States, the +performance rights organizations (ASCAP & BMI) are in charge of selling the +right to use a musician's performance, and while I have quite a few +quarrels with the way they work, the law is very clear. To put it +bluntly, you could get sued for a LOT of money. And if you're using the +excuse that the musicians and arrangers are distant and "everyone +ignorant", that probably sets you up for punitive damages right there. +And, IMHO, rightly so. I think Eric is saying that he knows this now. > Either way; what I have on the web is all synth'd; not one real musician. Ok, at > some stage real instruments were recordered so I imagine that there were real > musicians. Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the > music +If I understand you correctly, you are sampling recordings by other +musicians, and using the samples to generate MIDI files. The law on +sampling is new, and still developing, but it's certainly been held in +the courts that using the *sound* of someone's recording as an element in +a new recording without permission or royalties is grounds for lotsa +lawsuits. I don't know what cases, if any, have been brought over the +generation of MIDI files, but if you're using the arrangements from a +pre-existing recording without permission or royalties, again you're +letting yourself in for a big lawsuit, and IMHO again rightly so. I think you understand him incorrectly. I think he's saying that the makers of his synthesizer software once paid a musician to play an "A" on a flute for the purpose of having it digitized and made available to users of the software; now when the MIDI package tells the synth to play an A as though it were a flute, out it comes. All legal and correct. +Please quit stealing other people's work. I believe he has quit stealing other people's work, once he realized that that's what common practice in the SCA was actually doing. Not only that, he's trying to provide a resource of legal, not-copyright-violating, permissions-granted music for other SCA people so they can keep up their dance activities without stealing other people's work. I think this is commendable, and we should stop beating up on him. Nobody here has yet defended the proposition that copyright violation is acceptable. We aren't having an argument. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:41:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 07:44:41 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712041244.HAA11960-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text > If you're using someone else's arrangement or recorded music for a public > performance without permission or compensation you are legally liable, I still find that loony. If someone wrote a book it makes sense to get their permission. But here you have a case where several layers of people are necessary to get the final product and we're just using the music in the context of a not-for-profit group to show people some dances. As far as the SCA goes things have been changing. We have more an more people interested in period arrangements of the music. This has been spured by people using period instruments to play the darn stuff. Most of the society is still involved with fighting, armouring, politics and horsing around; but the arts and sciences are growing. > > Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the music > If I understand you correctly, you are sampling recordings by other > musicians, and using the samples to generate MIDI files. Not really. The instrument is recorded playing anywhere from one to all of the notes that it is capable of playing. A good clean segment of that is selected and they are all grouped together into a "patch" file. The sound card takes those small segments and extends them; adds an envelope (vibrato or whatever) and thereby recreates the sound of the instrument. The idea being that if your sound is created from a sample of the instrument it will have many of the qualities of that instrument. Of course it does not come close to expressing the full voice of any instrument. This is in contast to other sound cards like the Soundblaster which can only play back recorded samples or use modified FM synthesis to try and recreate the sound of an instrument. Does recording an 1/4 note of music amount to having to credit some person blowing into a flute? Gawd I hope not. Wahoo for studio musicians who don't get credit for anything anyway at anytime :) [you may have noticed my tongue in cheek] - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:54:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 01:54:09 -0600 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Redhouse To: English Country Dance List Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3487B320.46E7-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of it? --Charlene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:49:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:51:45 -0700 (MST) From: Rebecca Gore Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051851.LAA12290-AT- amber.math.unm.edu> I have heard of Redhouse Reel which is a Scottish country dance. Think this might be it? Rebecca Gore ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:08:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:11:14 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051911.OAA15978-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:54 AM 12/5/97 -0600, Charlene Charrette wrote: >Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". >I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of >it? Red-House is found in Country Dance Book, New Series, selected by Douglas & Helen Kennedy [English Folk Dance & Song Society, c 1979]. It comes from Volume I (1721) of "The Dancing Master." A1 (1-4) Ones meet & fall back (5-8) " set forward & cast down [Twos move up] A2 (1-4) " meet & fall back (5-8) " set forward & cast up [Twos move down] B1 (1-8) Chase: 1st Man [followed by partner] casts off below 2nd Man & dances up center round 2nd Woman into 2nd Man's place [Twos move up] B2 (1-8) Chase: 2nd Woman [followed by partner] casts below 1st Woman & dances up center round 1st Man into her own place [Ones move up] C1 (1-8) 2nd Man starts Hey for 3 with Ones [skip change] C2 (1-8) 2nd Woman starts Hey for 3 with Ones " Great dance, great music--I should put it on a program sometime soon! Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:11:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:13:44 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051913.OAA16400-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:51 AM 12/5/97 -0700, Rebecca Gore wrote: >I have heard of Redhouse Reel which is a Scottish country dance. Think >this might be it? > Different dance, but also a great one. Sharon Green [swiftly gaining a reputation as never having met a dance she didn't like...] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:45:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:47:24 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wechsler Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051947.OAA19282-AT- spork.bbn.com> References: <3487B320.46E7-AT- flash.net> [Charlene Charette:] Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of it? There certainly is an ECD called that, but I think it's spelled with two words, "Red House". My memory is shaky, but I think it's a brisk 4/4 duple minor. I'm humming what I think is the tune but I don't have a convenient way to type it in. -A ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:27:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:29:38 -0600 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34886432.4DE2-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712051911.OAA15978-AT- mail2.panix.com> Sharon Green wrote: > Red-House is found in Country Dance Book, New Series, selected by Douglas & > Helen Kennedy [English Folk Dance & Song Society, c 1979]. It comes from > Volume I (1721) of "The Dancing Master." I believe this is what he was looking for. Thanks everyone! --Charlene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:37:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Rebecca Gore wrote: > I have heard of Redhouse Reel which is a Scottish country dance. Think > this might be it? "Red House" is definitely an ECD; we've done it in St. Louis. I gather the Scottish version is quite similar, but not identical. As a musician, I can tell you the tune is a great one (we found the tune in Barnes 3.1 and asked the caller of the time if she'd call it; she did, to great acclaim). Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:21:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712052123.QAA05372-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:29 PM 12/5/97 -0800, Paul Stamler wrote: >"Red House" is definitely an ECD; we've done it in St. Louis. I gather >the Scottish version is quite similar, but not identical. Since the Scottish version keeps on coming up, I checked my RSCDS pocket edition index and found Red House [or Where Would Bonnie Annie Lie?] in vol. 7. [This clearly is a s-l-o-w day in Chelsea...] The Scottish version is 40 bars long, not 48: they leave out the advance and retire for the Ones. I don't know whether we're dealing with an abridged version of the tune in Barnes or something entirely different--Bruce Hamilton or Jenny Beer or David Newitt would probably know. The major difference between the Scottish Red House & ours is that theirs is even more stacked in favor of the actives than ours is: in the Scottish version, first the 1st Man leads the chase, then the 1st Woman leads a chase. No pursuit for the Twos. However, given the shortness of a Scottish set, that's fair enough. The second couple gets to be active soon enough. Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:27:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:28:25 -0500 From: bec-AT- pobox.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712052228.RAA19663-AT- sunspot.excalib.com> > The major >difference between the Scottish Red House & ours is that theirs is even more >stacked in favor of the actives than ours is: in the Scottish version, first >the 1st Man leads the chase, then the 1st Woman leads a chase. No pursuit >for the Twos. I've danced this version, with only the ones doing the chase, at an ECD in Philadelphia. bec ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 05:21:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:20:04 +0100 From: Antony Heywood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Survey Pride and Prejudice To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: <199712061324.OAA26197-AT- IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pride and Prejudice Dance Day in Eindhoven, the Netherlands attracted 150 people and because we had originally expected 40 to 50, we decided to hold a survey to ascertain how they heard about it and what attracted them about the day. The results of this survey will be published in our magazine at the beginning of January but they will be in Dutch, so here for members of the list is an English translation. 83 participants (55%) filled in the questionnaire. Sources of information: For members of the NVS, the most important source of information was the society's two-monthly magazine. Non-members obtained their information mainly from friends closely followed by the handbill which had been widely distributed to folk dance groups and placed in large public libraries. Internet was not a source of information which is hardly surprising considering we came on-line only a week before the event! Six people came as a result of an exhibition of costumes from Pride and Prejudice which had been held at the West Fries Museum in Hoorn from December 1996 to March 1997 and where we had had leaflets. Four people (and more who didn't fill in the form) came through a Period Dance Group (Pierewaaiers) in Nijmegen (50 km away). Reasons for coming: Being able to dance and the English tea were given as the most important reasons for coming. Non-members gave watching the dancing, interest in Jane Austen and interest in English culture as important reasons. 95% of members gave dancing as the most important reason aginst 51% of non-members. 8 people gave as reason the meeting of old friends. 38 of the replies (45%) were from members and 81% of these were people who come regularly to society activities. For those who may be interested, nine photos of the event have been posted on the NVS Website http://www.iae.nl/users/antony/ Antony Heywood The Netherlands ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:14:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:23:46 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3489B452.72-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712051911.OAA15978-AT- mail2.panix.com> Sharon Green wrote: > > [Ones move up] > C1 (1-8) 2nd Man starts Hey for 3 with Ones [skip change] > C2 (1-8) 2nd Woman starts Hey for 3 with Ones " > > Great dance, great music--I should put it on a program sometime soon! Sharon and All - I've called a little different version - more egalitarian in the A parts and a slightly different chase figure (though who can tell with everyone caroming all over the place...?) and the heys are with the 2s BUT the progression is a hurried 1s cast and 2s move up on the last two bars of the last C. I've read and read the Sharp directions that you posted and don't see a progression anywhere. Is it me? Mary (Should Probably Double That Old Store-Bought Estrogen) Jones Amherst, MA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:34:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:44:03 +0100 From: Antony Heywood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712070836.JAA13436-AT- IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to come late into this discussion and after Charlene seems to have got a satisfactory reply: > Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". > I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of > it? There are two other ECD dances with this name (well, one English and one Welsh): Red House appears in Neal (c. 1726) and the Welsh one is called Red House of Cardiff, a dance mad popular by Pat Shaw. Antony Heywood ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 09:58:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:00:41 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712071800.NAA24209-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:23 PM 12/6/97 -0500, Mary Jones wrote: >Sharon Green wrote: >> >> [Ones move up] >> C1 (1-8) 2nd Man starts Hey for 3 with Ones [skip change] >> C2 (1-8) 2nd Woman starts Hey for 3 with Ones " >> >> Great dance, great music--I should put it on a program sometime soon! > >Sharon and All - > >I've called a little different version - more egalitarian in the A parts and a >slightly different chase figure (though who can tell with everyone caroming all >over the place...?) and the heys are with the 2s BUT the progression is a hurried >1s cast and 2s move up on the last two bars of the last C. > >I've read and read the Sharp directions that you posted and don't see a >progression anywhere. Is it me? Mary is of course correct--Ones cast in bars 7-8 of C2. I'd started putting in the instructions as an afterthought & had to deal with Yet Another Universal Crisis before I finished. And who rereads? Sharon [Why Progress When You're Having Such Fun Right Where You Are?] Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:31:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RLHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01IQW969ZRUA94FQMB-AT- amherst.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Hello, all, The "more egalitarian" alternate B2 that Mary is referring to, where 2nd woman casts up followed by her partner, is suggested as an alternate figure in the Neal directions. (Does anyone know whether that was an editorial suggestion from Rich Jackson and George Fogg? Rich, are you out there?) We do do this dance in Amherst a lot. It is a favorite with dancers and musicians alike. Robin Hayden ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 13:02:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:04:52 -0500 From: Martin.Fager-AT- bowne.com (Martin Fager) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re[2]: Pride and Prejudice Day of Dance in Eindhoven, Hollan To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <0004BEA5.1618-AT- bowne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A rather late reply - Country Dance New York is doing better, thank you, but most of the newbies that were brought in by the NY Times article have drifted away. (It's been 8 months since the article was published.) I would estimate that we have gained 8-10 regulars. Attendance at our regular Tuesday night English dances is still larger than before, but financially, these dances are only at a breakeven level, and I would love to increase the attendance. We need about two NY Times articles per year! Marty Fager --------------------------------------------------------------------- [Alan Winston wrote] Actually, the last I heard -- which was, admittedly, a little while ago -- CDNY was reeling under the onslaught (I mean, actually, dealing splendidly well with) the huge number of new English dancers brought in by the famed New York Times article, celebrated in song and story, or at least in that dance by Colin Hume. So I thought it vaguely possible that you might not be quite as actively interested in publicity and recruiting right at the moment. -- Alan (PS: Should there be a Scottish dance called "Reeling Under the Onslaught?") =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:26:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:26:39 -0500 From: The Dupre Family Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Was this in YOUR newspaper? To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BD0406.E9C10D60-AT- ppp32.nerc.com> I did a job Saturday night in which I served as dancing mistress for the Coryell Ferry Militia's annual ball - it's a holiday ball for colonial reenactors. I've done this several years, and it was the usual great event (it's one of my favorite calling jobs each year) except that a reporter and a photographer from the Associated Press were in attendance to do an article for publication today. It made it into my paper but of course there's local relevance, but I note it didn't make it into the NY Times. So, I'm curious about how whether it was interesting enough to papers in other regions to get published. Did any of you run across it? I'd better point out that this is not going to make me rich and famous and isn't going to make historic dancing famous either. Although the reporter talked to me for awhile, she focussed the article on the reenactors rather than the dancing, and the closest I come to getting mentioned is the sentence "Amid candlelight and the strains of 18th century jigs and reels and other traditional tunes, gentlemen and their ladies twirled and sashayed to the caller's instructions." Just curious, Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc.com ph: (609) 844-0459 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:06:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: bolker-AT- phoenix.Princeton.EDU Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:07:49 -0500 (EST) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Was this in YOUR newspaper? To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Sue Dupre wrote: > I did a job Saturday night in which I served as dancing mistress for the > Coryell Ferry Militia's annual ball - it's a holiday ball for colonial > reenactors. I've done this several years, and it was the usual great event > (it's one of my favorite calling jobs each year) except that a reporter and > a photographer from the Associated Press were in attendance to do an > article for publication today. It made it into my paper but of course > there's local relevance, but I note it didn't make it into the NY Times. > So, I'm curious about how whether it was interesting enough to papers in > other regions to get published. Did any of you run across it? (hi, sue!) yes, i ran across it, though not in a newspaper: it was on the radio this morning (whyy-fm philadelphia), at about 9 a.m. during morning edition. the organizer, bob gerenser, who plays general washington this year, was mentioned by name, but not the caller. susie lorand ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:52:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:53:02 -0800 From: metis-AT- mcs.mcs.csuhayward.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712090753.XAA03659-AT- seki.mcs> The appended message is reprinted with permission from a recent discussion on the Strathspey Scottish Dance mailing list. Red House has also been interpreted in an RSCDS fashion and appears as Sharon pointed out, in Book VII #2. Having danced both (and this is rare for me in English vs. Scottish comparisons), I actually prefer the SCD version, which is in essence: 1-8 1's set and cast off one place; set again and cast up one place 9-24 1st woman chases partner around the 2's; 1'st man chases 1 woman back to place 25-40 Actives dance 8 bar reel of 3 with 2nd man on men's side of dance; then rell of 3 with 2nd woman on woman's side of dance. In the English version where the 1's chase, then the 2's chase, neither chase is as satisfying; there is less time for frivolity, and the "surprise" of the tables being turned is completely lost. The reels of three in the SCD version are ideosyncratic but very satisfying, with the first man plunging out the bottom of the first reel and into the bottom of the second one. The ECD heys are standard for a triple, but the SCD version is a duple. Did Playford not specify? I'd be very curious to see the full version of the original playford and how these variations may have arisen. The first edition of Playford is on the web (Thanks, Eric), but not one of the later editions with Red House. Tom Tom Roby Department of Math & CS troby-AT- mcs.csuhayward.edu California State University [Fax] 510-885-4169 25800 Carlos Bee Blvd. [Off] 510-885-2691 Hayward, CA 94542-3092 http://www.mcs.csuhayward.edu/~troby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:46:24 -0500 (EST) From: RSCDSSD-AT- aol.com To: strathspey-AT- tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de Subject: Re: Changed Red House tune Message-ID: <971104112930_-291238595-AT- emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-03 03:21:52 EST, Anselm writes: > Red House is one of those dances that go back all the way to Playford's > _Compleat_English_Dancing_Master_. If I remember correctly, the Playford > instructions are something like > > 1-4 1st couple set to partner twice > 5-8 1st couple cast off into 2nd place > 9-12 1st couple set to partner twice > 13-16 1st couple cast up into 1st place > > (apply RSCDS-to-Playford terminology filter to instructions above) and > from then on it goes on as usual. Apparently somebody thought that this > was too much of a good thing and shortened this bit into 8 bars. > Actually, the Playford instructions are slightly different, though the barring does indeed include 8 bars that the RSCDS instructions eliminated. The dance first appears in Playford's 9th edition (1695) and is printed in every subsequent edition through 1728. Walsh, in his usual fashion, lifted it directly from Playford for his 1718 and 1731 publications. It is the Walsh edition of 1731 that the RSCDS cites as its source, but the directions are identical with Playford. The A part of the music is repeated in these original publications, though the dance directions are: "The 1. cu. meet and sett and cast off into the 2. cu. place. Then meet and sett again and cast off into their own places". His use of "cast off" in the second A part is probably a just an idiosyncratic usage. The 1st couple are clearly to end up back in top place. The next instruction is "The 1. Man cast off below the 2. Man . . ." The extra bars come with the figure "meet" which is the instruction now used in English country dances, "meet and fall back a double". It is a four bar advance and retire-like movement and is used in the English Folk Dance and Song Society reconstruction of Red House, a 48 bar dance. I do wish the RSCDS had retained all 48 bars as I think it suits the tune, but at least we've got the basic melody line. As for what happens in the last 16 bars, I'm working on that and hope to write it as an article for TACTalk. Several interesting interpretations present themselves. Marjorie McLaughlin RSCDS SD-AT- aol.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:30:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:32:58 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Red House To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 metis-AT- mcs.mcs.csuhayward.edu wrote: [Hi, Tom! You sure do move around!] [snip] . . . Having danced both (and this is rare for me in > English vs. Scottish comparisons), I actually prefer the SCD version, > which is in essence: > > 1-8 1's set and cast off one place; set again and cast up one place > 9-24 1st woman chases partner around the 2's; 1'st man chases 1 woman > back to place > 25-40 Actives dance 8 bar reel of 3 with 2nd man on men's side of dance; > then rell of 3 with 2nd woman on woman's side of dance. > > In the English version where the 1's chase, then the 2's chase, neither > chase is as satisfying; there is less time for frivolity, and the > "surprise" of the tables being turned is completely lost. The reels of > three in the SCD version are ideosyncratic but very satisfying, with the > first man plunging out the bottom of the first reel and into the bottom > of the second one. The ECD heys are standard for a triple, but the SCD > version is a duple. Did Playford not specify? The ECD version that I have in "normally" (I.e. not a ball program) form comes from Jackson & Fogg's "A Choice Collection..." from Neal (1726, I think, or thereabouts) which I think was published originally in Ireland. They have the original instructions included there, and as I recall their interpretation is closer to that than the version (Sharp?) which Sharon Green gave. It is also closer to the Scottish version you have given here, and is, as I recall, duple minor. But I believe the heys are across the set, not up and down. The original might have been ambiguous on this, if it simply said who was doing the hey, but not where -- it in principle could go across, up and down, or on the diagonal for a hey for three involving the first couple and second man, and this grouping can also be described as the first woman with the two men. In the latter form, it is usually interpreted, I think, as a hey on the side (as in Kelsterne Gardens, Portsmouth, etc.), which became a *very* common figure in the ECDs of the mid- to latter-18th century. Perhaps because of this commonality it might appeal to ECDers more as a hey across... > > I'd be very curious to see the full version of the original playford and > how these variations may have arisen. The first edition of Playford is > on the web (Thanks, Eric), but not one of the later editions with Red > House. If no one else gets to it first (please do!) I'll put up the original instructions as given in Jackson & Fogg, but it might not happen for a day or two, since I have a dance to lead tonight and I just got back from a *delightful* weekend of Bare Necessities revelry in Princeton, Philadelphia, and New York. Eric (a *different* Eric!) Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:52:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:55:25 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Philadelphia Ball (long) To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Mostly Playford Ball held this past Saturday at the Sun Center in Aston, PA with the well-orchestrated efforts of the Germantown Country Dancers was a very remarkable experience for me. The Sun Center, I believe, gets its name from the Sun Oil Company, and it seemed to consist of a *very* large gymnasium with peripheral rooms. It had a wooden floor presumably over concrete, the requsite basketball backboards and nets, and an arched semi-elliptical ceiling supported by massive laminated-wood beams which gave the space a much less cluttered feel than the network of steel girders that one often sees in structures of this type. Between these wood beams, the ceiling was uniformly covered with large slabs of some sort of architectural/acoustical tile that was somewhat porous. I understand that they went to this hall after they were unsuccessful in obtaining the Great Hall of the Thomas Library on the Bryn Mawr campus, where the ball has been held in recent years, and which is a gorgeous room with difficult acoustical properties. I was dismayed at first when I walked into the Sun Center to find myself staring into this huge gym. But there was someone from the practice band there playing for a sound test, and I was immediately struck by how clear the sound was, clear across the room. It was definitely *not* a hall filled with echoes, out of which I had to struggle to identify the tune and the rhythm; but the sound did not feel lost and isolated, either. I looked at the ceiling and noticed the wood beams, the shape, and the tile. The band was placed on one side where the ceiling curved down to meet the wall. Four loudspeakers along the wall by the band were doing quite well at filling the hall, I thought. The room was not full yet -- I was a bit early for the afternoon practice session. Some decorations were up, and some folks were working at putting up more. During the practice session, the dancers made their usual hubbub, and sometimes it was hard to hear things before they settled down to listen, but it did not seem to be too hard to get them to quiet down, and when they did, I found it easy to understand the spoken instructions. I have a bit of a hearing loss in a way that makes it hard for me to understand speech in the presence of background noise, and this is often a difficult time for me if I don't know the dance already. It was not a problem this time, and not because I knew everything -- I didn't. In the evening, the appearance of the gym had been transformed wonderfully by tasteful arrays of greens, lights, and lattice screens; green boughs dripped plentifully from the basket hoops and covered the backboards so that you didn't realize what they were unless you looked closely, or wondered where they went... The lights were strings of tiny, clear bulbs suspended just a bit over the heads of the dancers, along with hazy blue cloth banners and more greens -- an enormous amount of work to put up, I'm sure -- and helped to make us less aware of the cavernous space above that. The lattice screens defined the perimeter of the dance area, and also had greens and lights; arches provided entranceways into the dance space, and it was really delightful. But for me, the absolute best part was the result of the acoustical properties of the space, combined with the superb understanding of how to provide sound reinforcement in such a space by the incomparable Bob Mills. With a band like Bare Necessities, which will frequently take much liberty with the melody and quite a bit with the rhythm as well, it is essential to be able to hear clearly what they are doing, and in a number of the grander halls, unfortunately the acoustical properties of the halls can make dancing more difficult and stressful. In this hall, I felt I could *really* hear what the band was doing, and I sensed that others were having the same experience. People seemed, in general, more relaxed, and were dancing in a way that I found very satisfying. Having ample room contributed to this as well. Perhaps the most remarkable thing that I noticed is that during the dances themselves, people seemed much quieter than usual -- whether they were talking just as much as usual, but it didn't contribute to the usual din, or whether they were actually quieter than usual, I'm not sure -- but I *think* that they were quieter, because for a change they could really hear the wonderful music that Bare Necessities can make, without it all being muddled together for the last two measures by the echos of the typical hall. At the same time, I never felt that the music was painfully loud, except perhaps for one brief time when I was standing out near a loudspeaker at the top, and Peter hit a high not on the flute or a little pipe; and this was also in contrast to my feelings at some events of this type. I did hear of some complaints to the sound person that some people found the sound a little thin toward the back of the dance space, but I hadn't felt that way. I don't know if Bob was able to correct this satisfactorily for them, but if he did, it didn't decrease my enjoyment. I thought it was superb, and that it was a major factor in a very successful event. I asked Mary Lea how it felt for her, and she essentially said that it was a bit hard for the band to hear each other, and that she preferred a hall that felt brighter, such as the place we were in at the time, the Seminary in New York where CD*NY holds its Yuletide Cotillion the following Sunday afternoon. But there is no comparison for me as a dancer -- the music there I find very muddled, and much less satisfying, even though everything else about the location is completely delightful. Perhaps more strength in the musician's monitors in the Sun Center would solve that for the band... I understand the use of the Sun Center was a one-time arrangement, and that it was unusually expensive. But it was a wonderful experience for me, and a rare opportunity to see just how much of an effect the hall acoustics can have on one of these events. The acoustical effects are usually negative... So many thanks to all of the Philly folks who put such an effort into finding this place and transforming it so magically into the site of such a delightful evening! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:51:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: bolker-AT- phoenix.Princeton.EDU Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:53:22 -0500 (EST) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Philadelphia Ball--sound credit To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Eric Arnold wrote: > But for me, the absolute best part was the result of the acoustical > properties of the space, combined with the superb understanding of how to > provide sound reinforcement in such a space by the incomparable Bob Mills. wasn't it david murray who was in charge of sound for the phila. ball? bob mills wasn't at the ball, but he did the sound for the *friday* night dance in princeton with bare necessities. i second eric's praise of the sound arrangements for the ball. much as i love the thomas library's ambience, the music was a great deal easier to hear in the sun center. - susie lorand princeton, nj ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:17:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Philadelphia Ball--sound credit To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Susie Lorand wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Eric Arnold wrote: > > > But for me, the absolute best part was the result of the acoustical > > properties of the space, combined with the superb understanding of how to > > provide sound reinforcement in such a space by the incomparable Bob Mills. > > wasn't it david murray who was in charge of sound for the phila. ball? > bob mills wasn't at the ball, but he did the sound for the *friday* night > dance in princeton with bare necessities. Is that right? If so, my sincere apologies to the *real* sound person -- but I thought I saw Bob there (could I have confused them? I don't know David Murray), and had a recollection of hearing an acknowledgement consistent with what I said. Perhaps I was not listening attentively then, assuming I already knew who did the sound. Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:28:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:18:03 -0500 From: marthacd-AT- juno.com (Martha C Davey) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Philadelphia Ball decorations To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971209.191845.4358.2.marthacd-AT- juno.com> References: On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:55:25 -0500 (EST) Eric Arnold writes: >In the evening, the appearance of the gym had been transformed >wonderfully by tasteful arrays of greens, lights, and lattice screens; green >boughs dripped plentifully from the basket hoops and covered the backboards >so that you didn't realize what they were unless you looked closely, or >wondered where they went... The lights were strings of tiny, clear >bulbs suspended just a bit over the heads of the dancers, along with hazy >blue cloth banners and more greens -- an enormous amount of work to put up, >I'm sure -- and helped to make us less aware of the cavernous space above >that. The lattice screens defined the perimeter of the dance area, >and also had greens and lights; arches provided entranceways into the >dance space, and it was really delightful. Credit for these wonderful decorations should go to Leslie Talon who put in innumerable hours of effort to achieve the wonderful effects. Martha Davey Temporary Phone # (941)792-9323 Probably Back in NY by the Winter Solstice (718)278-4389 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:40:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:43:04 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know what you mean by your comments about scholars. Have you met any real ones? My contention is, as you may know, that if living members of CDS (or non-members, for that matter) would try to do the dances as they were originally done, they'd have a very good time, and do some lovely dancing. Julia Sutton Musicologist, Dance Historian Prof. emerita ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:14:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712101318.IAA20563-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text > I don't know what you mean by your comments about scholars. At this point neither do I! I don't believe that I've used that word in a posting for quite a long time; if ever. Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you are talking about. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:21:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR09Q0TW5294NY7N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Julia Sutton wrote: >I don't know what you mean by your comments about scholars. Have you met >any real ones? I think the first line is in response to my comments about SCA dance people; I said (or meant to say; I haven't gone back to see what I did say) that the level of scholarship varied dramatically. There are definitely folks who've learned only through oral tradition within the SCA, and don't know how much of what they know is in any sense authentic vs. recent invention; there are others who have taught themselves enough Italian to puzzle out some primary sources. On the RENDANCE list I have seen the latter sort asking, collegially, for opinions on their reconstructions or information of variant interpretations. For hobbyists, it seems to me the latter sort are being pretty scholarly. Patri Pugliese, whom I understand to have been an SCA baron, makes available inexpensive photocopies of historical dance texts; my Wilson "Complete System of Country Dancing" is from him. There are people who publish an SCA dance journal, the Letter of Dance, some of the contributions to which are fairly scholarly (and some are merely amusing). [I don't think it's a peer-reviewed journal, though.] Some of the SCA dance people in the Bay Area eagerly flock to any classes held by Angene Feves or Richard Powers. So that's what I mean by scholars in the SCA. >My contention is, as you may know, that if living members >of CDS (or non-members, for that matter) would try to do the dances as >they were originally done, they'd have a very good time, and do some >lovely dancing. It would at least be an interesting exercise. I hope that Julia isn't arguing that 'authentic' dancing be universally substituted for 'Sharp-style' ECD; I suspect many people would simply stop, finding it too great an investment of effort for their reward. (And of course the dances written this century to be done in Sharp's style would have to be discarded.) Whether they'd have a good time would depend on the members and their tastes. I love Sharp-style English Country Dance. (I was just looking at the Country Dance Book again, in aid of setting straight someone on the Morris Dance Discussion List; I was reminded that I admire Sharp's field work, am appalled by his scholarship, and am completely in tune with his aesthetics.) I took Jody McGeen's "ECD with Baroque Steps" workshop (a two-evening course in conjunction with the Stanford Baroque Week) a few years back, and found it interesting and enlightening but not particularly satisfying. (My reaction to Stan Isaacs' multi-week Regency quadrille course was similar, except that I've found more of those steps useful outside of the class; the step vocabulary fits very well into the Revolutionary-era American dance that's a side interest of mine.) Footwork does not come easily to some people; I'm among them. Sharp-style ECD is a very accessible form that lets people like me enjoy dancing full-heartedly to beautiful music; I don't want to lose it. There is, on the other foot, a good deal of satisfaction in doing steps that absolutely fit the music. Drapers' Maggot really wants a minuet step; Fried Herman isn't afraid to call for it in her reconstruction. The timing in Hole in the Wall makes a good deal more sense with the steps Jody taught than with a simple walking step. So I'm not arguing with what Julia wrote, above, although to fully agree with it, I'd have to change it to "they *might* have a very good time". She doesn't actually suggest abandoning Sharp-style ECD; I couldn't support it if she did. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:11:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:13:46 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well yes, I am a purist, and would like everyone to agree with me. If everyone would, then we could treat Sharp's style as an interesting product of a later day having a distant relationship with the originals, and a facet of the history of English Country Dance without giving it the adulation it now receives. Sharp created a "folkdance" in the style of the late-nineteenth century--pictures of his dancers show leanings that perfectly fit the romantic aesthetic of his time, a sense of ecstasy, a notion of simplicity, etc. of his own invention completely except for the figures. BUT I don't expect to see my dream fulfilled, unfortunately. So I go every Wednesday to CDS Boston, and enjoy myself thoroughly without weeping over it. And so, I think, should you! Pax! Hope my disagreeing doesn't upset you. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:53:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:56:13 -0800 (PST) From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Knives and forks To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone tell me how the dance Knives and Forks goes? Our musicians are asking to play it! Emma Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112 phone (801) 585-9425, fax (801) 581-4668 "time is fun when you're having flies" - Kermit the Frog ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:01:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Knives and forks To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR0L8XEIDE94NY7N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Emma Rushton asked: Can anyone tell me how the dance Knives and Forks goes? Our musicians are asking to play it! Knives and Forks is in Neal, as edited by Jackson and Fogg. Published 1726. I don't have that here, but from memory: Longways duple minor, proper. A1: 1s cast off, go below 2s (who wait and lead up); back to back. A2: 1s cast off, go above 2s (who wait and lead down); back to back. B1: Facing out, take inside hands with neighbor and lead out (one bar, but it's 3/2 so that's a longer time than you think), lead back (one bar), cross over with partner (one bar) and make a loop to the right. B2: First man and second woman cross (people, not places); others cross, all turn partners two hands once round. Nice dance, and a pretty tune. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:12:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:40:53 -0500 From: marthacd-AT- juno.com (Martha C Davey) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Knives and forks To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971210.204055.18526.2.marthacd-AT- juno.com> References: <01IR0L8XEIDE94NY7N-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes: >Emma Rushton asked: > > Can anyone tell me how the dance Knives and Forks goes? Our >musicians are > asking to play it! > >Knives and Forks is in Neal, as edited by Jackson and Fogg. Published >1726. >I don't have that here, but from memory: > >Longways duple minor, proper. > >A1: 1s cast off, go below 2s (who wait and lead up); back to back. >A2: 1s cast off, go above 2s (who wait and lead down); back to back. > >B1: Facing out, take inside hands with neighbor and lead out (one bar, >but > it's 3/2 so that's a longer time than you think), lead back (one >bar), > cross over with partner (one bar) and make a loop to the right. > >B2: First man and second woman cross (people, not places); others >cross, > all turn partners two hands once round. > > >Nice dance, and a pretty tune. > >-- Alan Emma- I also suggest that after the partners cross the second corner people make a wider loop while waiting for the first corners to cross, and the first corner people make a wider loop after they cross before turning each other so that no one stops moving during the entire B parts. Martha Davey Temporary Phone # (941)792-9323 Probably Back in NY by the Winter Solstice (718)278-4389 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:36:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:37:32 -0500 From: Erna-Lynne Bogue Subject: Philadelphia Ball (long) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <348F6E06.33FC-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <19971209.191845.4358.2.marthacd-AT- juno.com> I also had an amazingly wonderful time at the Philly Ball. Like Eric, when I first entered the hall, I thought "oh no! an airplane hangar!" The dance area defined by the decorations was in fact much larger than the Great Hall at Bryn Mawr. I truly enjoyed Irish Lamentation for the first time in my life: I could truly surge forward with my partner for 5 1/2 steps, turn out, swoop down the outside with the assistance of my neighbor, surge back for 5 1/2 steps and swoop again. I have *never* enjoyed that much movement in a dance. (Yes, I had a delightful partner too). I also noticed the relative absence of jabbering from the dance floor. I know I talked less. Somehow, the little lights and the big space, both around me and above me, made me want to *just DANCE* and do my social talking elsewhere. The floor was hard. I've had foot problems for some months now and have in fact done very little dancing in anticipation of this weekend. I had to sit out a few dances -- but the rest were well worth it. There were many special moments, musically and in other ways. One of the don't-expect-to-see-this-again was to dance the American Husband in just one circle of couples, with plenty of space all around, and to have everyone seem to know where to go in the Shetland Hey...and we could hear the music. For those of you who wonder if it's really worthwhile to climb in the car and drive 650 miles for a dance event, the answer is: yes, if they are like this one. -------------------------------- Erna-Lynne Bogue / Ypsilanti MI -------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:11:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:12:00 -0800 (PST) From: Larkin Irfona Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: An Enchanted Place To: ECD Message-ID: <34902D14-AT- its.nlc-bnc.ca> Can anyone tell me if Charles Bolton's publication "All Alive" is available anywhere? It doesn't seem to be listed with CDSS. I would like to learn A. Heywood's dance, it sounds like fun. Irfona Larkin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:42:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:44:59 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An Enchanted Place To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712120244.VAA24668-AT- mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:12 AM 12/11/97 -0800, Irfona Larkin wrote: > >Can anyone tell me if Charles Bolton's publication "All Alive" is available >anywhere? It doesn't seem to be listed with CDSS. I would like to learn A. >Heywood's dance, it sounds like fun. >Irfona Larkin > Irfona, hi! My guess is that you'd have to apply directly to Charles for a copy. When I met him in Lichfield this summer, I arranged to get additional copies of the "All Alive" cassette from him. He's an extremely helpful and kind person, and I think you'll enjoy corresponding with him. Write to: Charles Bolton 20 The Woodlands Broom Biggleswade Bedfordshire SG18 9NH ENGLAND Happy dancing! Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:14:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:17:29 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An Enchanted Place To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Irfona, While "All Alive" by Charles Bolton may be hard to find, the dance "An Enchanted Place" by Antony Heywood was reprinted in CDSS News #115 (Nov/Dec 1993), p. 6, as an editorial appendage to a letter from Mr. Heywood in response to a previous letter from David Millstone requesting information about dances written to O'Carolan tunes. Because it is printed with the letters and not listed in the contents as a dance, I searched for some time after hearing that it had been published there. Regards, Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:51:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:54:03 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The essence of the original Red House instructions, paraphrased from Jackson & Fogg, 1990, quoting Neal, 1726: Red house each strain twice 1's cast off to 2nd place; back to back: 2's the same in their own places: 1st man cast off and go around 2's, followed by his partner back to their original places: 1st woman the same, followed by her partner to places: 1st man hey with the 2's: 1st woman hey with the 2's; 1's cast into 2nd place. While the instructions don't say where the hey with the 1st man or the 1st woman with the 2nd couple are to take place, my own interpretation would be to have a hey across the set; if it had said "2nd woman hey with the two men" instead of "1st man hey with the 2nd couple" I would have interpreted it on the side. But that's my own take of the wording, not a scholarly one. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:05:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:08:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Forward from Paul Ross on Knives and Forks To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR6H8DPVSI94ZPQ5-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII [Paul sent this to me and to Emma, and I thought it a valuable contribution and suggested posting it to the list, which I'm doing with Paul's permission. All the rest of this message is from Paul.] Hello, Emma and Alan, this is Paul Ross (CD*NY teacher/caller). May I make a slight refinement of the instructions for Knives and Forks? Let me count out the bars for you (yes, as Alan said, the meter is 3/2): A1 1-4 1C cast to 2 place (2's moving up), 1C only back-to-back A2 1-4 1C cast up to 1 pl (2's moving down), 1C only bk-to-bk B1 1 All lead same-sex neighbor away 2 All turn toward neighbor to face partner 3-4 All cross over with partner by right and loop right B2 1 2 corner positions (1M and 2W) change by right 2 1 corner positions (2M and 1W) change by right 3-4 Partners turn 2 hands 1x From the point of view of dancing this well, the challenge in part A is for the 2 couple to *make something* of the lead up/lead down role. For the 1's, it's a beautiful, flowing movement, especially if the cast is a "cast, goodby" in which partners glance at each other and even take a step toward each other before casting. In part B, the challenge is to keep dancing in the B2 portion. So while 1M / 2W are changing, the other corners should use up the music by elongating their loop to the right after the cross over. Similarly, while 2M / 1W change by right, the other corners dance beyond the line and then loop right back to line to use up the extra bar before the two-hand turn with partner. For the 1C of course, the final two-hand turn leads right into the cast at the beginning of the next tour. =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:08:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:10:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Arcata "contra" - after action report To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR6I0OFLAM94ZPQ5-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, *that* was interesting. I think the event can be termed a qualified success. (A brief recap: An old friend of mine from Los Angeles recently became a member of the committee that programs the monthly contra dance in Arcata, a small city on the North Coast of California. I got hired to call an English dance program and an afternoon workshop on English dances with contra figures to, as I thought, an audience of reasonably-sophisticated contra dancers, and have over the last couple of months pestered the list for advice on program, on dealing with musicians who've done little English, and related topics. The musicians wanted to rehearse any tunes they were going to have to play; sightreading was not an option, so the program needed to be made up weeks in advance, including some backup tunes.) Abut 14 people showed up for the afternoon workshop. Some were reasonably experienced contra dancers, some (as I found out later) were international folk dancers who had come to check out English dancing, for whom the "contra figures" theme wasn't particularly helpful. One couple had an appointment and had to leave early; the rest stayed through. I'd given the band a list of fourteen tunes to have ready, which I hadn't realized would involve the bandleader copying out each tune by hand three times (since only three of the four members were at the workshop) or four times for the evening dances. We did: Levi Jackson Rag (for six, which breaks the mixer part but let everybody dance. Went reasonably well, although I had to keep calling all through six reps.) Young Widow (which seemed to go okay in walk through, even walking it through twice to show the triple-minor progression, but broke down repeatedly. I'd had it in mind to show differences in contra and English style - skipping, etc, but had to give up on doing it both ways because we couldn't do it either way. I had mistakenly assumed an an audience that already knew at least duple minor progression; enough IFD people didn't know it at all that they simply didn't understand which way they were supposed to go. Oops.) The Bonny Breast Knot (Somerset and Devon version) Three couple sets, simple cloverleaf, balancing, contra corners, down the middle and back to the bottom, everybody swing. This went fine, once I'd walked everybody through contra corners (that is, putting each couple in middle place and having them do it before actually dealing with it in the dance.) This worked pretty well, but there was a tremendous tendency to rush the music (which is quite relaxed), despite counting, etc. It only stayed on time [mostly] when I called each little piece. If I Had Maggie in the Wood (Sicilian circle mixer, Colin Hume.) This one worked, but people didn't really retain the figures and I had to keep calling through ten rounds. Even so, there was a tendency to be early or late. This a dance with very clear timing; I'd think you'd have to disregard the music altogether to be early. Duke of Kent's Waltz: Quick teach, worked fine. (Thanks, whoever suggested that. I didn't give a gloss on why all those pieces were contra figures (star, allemande, etc; I had divined by then that hardly anybody cared about it being a contra figures workshop.) I was able to stop calling after five rounds, which was good, since I was dancing in the set to get one of the organizers in. Smithy Hill: This worked pretty well, but the surprising thing to me was that the problems were in the hey for four, which I was still thinking people should know how to do. With a free waltz, that used up the two hours of the workshop. The music had been just fine, and I'd established good communication with the band. The dancers seemed pretty happy, to my moderate surprise; I would not myself have been so happy if I'd struggled as much as some of them had. Off to an early dinner with my buddy, arriving back at the hall about 7:30, a half-hour ahead of the start. (Also twenty minutes ahead of the band, who were still futzing with sound at 8:05; we got started at about 8:15.) At 8:15 there were about twenty dancers in the hall, so I started doing surgery on the planned program, and went with Come, Let's Be Merry instead of Margaret's Waltz. Demonstrated all the bits, defined and demonstrated casting off, worked on making the ring round connect and only turn halfway (which turned out to be a problem; the set that initially didn't pull in on the arms at all and turned only 1/3 got the idea too enthusiastically and kept overshooting dramatically.) Several couples didn't respond to my guidance about timing on the pairs of casts down, and arrived at the bottom two or three measures early -- at which point they'd start to waltz up the middle without waiting for the phrase, or with any apparent sense that there _was_ a phrase. So I called each little piece, six times through. Second, per initial plan, was The Female Saylor. More people had showed up, so I had two lines of about eleven couples each. This is a wonderful dance I love dearly, fits well with the Christmas theme, and has the relentless motion of some modern contras, but it is not a good idea to do this with a group that isn't altogether clear that you don't change from active to inactive after every round of a dance, and of which only two-thirds could correctly execute a half-figure 8 by the end of the dance, despite description and demonstration. (And one guy, who perhaps had a hearing problem or was perhaps not gifted with figures or perhaps just overwhelmed, would respond to calls of "half-figure 8" with random motion ending some different weird place each time. Much running up and down the line and fixing things, which is hard when you have to keep calling every move even on the twelfth round of the dance. (A pair of young women had showed up who had no problems with the figures, but who were skipping madly through the whole thing. I hardly knew what to say, so I didn't address this; they were among the few who were in the right place at the right time.) The dance never got up to the recommended tempo. When this was done, I re-evaluated my position. Under other circumstances, I would have thrown out my entire program and retreated to be as simple as possible. On a scale of 1 to 10, the difficulty of my program varied from 2 to 6; I really needed a range from 1 to 3. But I needed to work out of the tunes already selected; this band couldn't just turn to the right page in Barnes and play something they'd never seen before. So, Margaret's Waltz, which went quite well, and I was able to shut up after about four rounds. Bonny Breast Knot again. I had to dance to fill a set, and couldn't watch all seven sets; apparently one fell apart in contra corners and couldn't get sorted out again. I called a break, and the band set up to sing. (I had hoped to do the break, let people eat, drink, use the bathroom, and have the band call the dancers back in by singing, but when they asked nicely to sing now, I let them. A nice rendition of the Cutty Wren (which I hate, but they did it well) and a cool wassailing song from the Orkney Islands I hadn't heard before. So people sat, then straggled out for refreshments, and the whole thing dragged out to twenty-five minutes. I talked to some of the dancers, which is when I found out how quite a lot of them were IFD people who never or rarely contra dance. I'd known something was different from my expectations; now I knew what. I started the second section with Roxburgh Castle. It was rather gratifying to say "We're going to learn a step -- this involves standing up" and have people say "Cool!" The whole room was ranting within five minutes, and there's so little to the dance that only five minutes later we were doing it. It seemed to me to be the hit of the evening, and I was able to run it longer than I'd ever dare to do it in Palo Alto or San Jose, with people really enjoying it. (The only difficulty was that some people couldn't get the idea that they were supposed to polka around the same couple that they'd just done the rest of the dance with, and would insist on going around the next, which left three polka-ing couples occupying the space of two. But they liked it.) With everyone winded, I went for "Irish Lamentation." This was reasonably successful, although the guy who was doing something random every time I said "half figure 8" was now doing something random every time I said "cross" or "cast" as well. Luckily, it's slow enough that you can recover from almost anything. (The band went with a tempo faster than standard, but still very slow; I decided not to lower it any further, as it _is_ a challenge that the dancers didn't really need.) Finally, "Trip to Paris." Despite my counting out and singing the tune for the trip, people still finished it at random times, often too early, and some still couldn't get the path. (I swear it wasn't me; I've taught this particular dance to first-time or beginner groups many times without so many problems.) But they loved it anyway. Quite a few people, including those who'd struggled so conspicuously, came up after the last waltz to thank me and say what a good time they'd had, with every evidence of sincerity. One of the organizers had been tremendously taken with a couple of the dances and said he'd try to see that they got taught here even in my absence, so I presented him with my dance notes, the ones that had actually been danced marked off in order. (I don't use index cards; I keep dance descriptions in separate text files on the computer, and combine them in portmanteau files for evenings, then print multiple copies since I have a bad habit of putting them down when I need to demonstrate something and then not being able to find them again.) I presented the band leader with a copy of Barnes to keep. The organizers (not just my buddy) said that they'd like to get me back, preferably before next December, and everyone seemed to feel that it was quite a success. I was unhappy that my program had been such a struggle, but resolved to make one that was a better match to the group next time. On the way to my friend's house, she told me for the first time that this group is chronically unable to keep to the phrase of the music in contra dancing,that contra corners baffles them, and that her favorite dance, Rory O' More, never really works there without a struggle. I wish I'd known that before. If I indeed get hired back, with the same band, I'll worry much less about the music and concentrate on an _extremely_ accessible set of dances, maybe including a little more footwork. (Another rant, Nottingham Swing, La Russe Quadrille, as well as more historical dances.) All in all, a qualified success. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:00:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:03:49 -0800 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Subject: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD List Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3496B475.5B80-AT- erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712152352.SAA06361-AT- mail1.panix.com> While listening to a terrific CD of Welsh folk songs this weekend with an international folk (and Scottish) dancer, it suddenly occurred to us that neither of us had ever even heard of Welsh country dancing. Local inquiry produced the following: > We do do one Welsh dance: it's called Oswestry Square. [Martha Davey] > Welsh folk-dancing definitely exists: Pat Shaw was active in the > Welsh Folk Dance Society [indeed, his Waterfall Waltz--tune Caerdroea-- > "won the prize at the National Eisteddfod (Port Talbot 1966) in the > competition for the "Composition of a Twmpath Dance.'"]. The latest > issue of English Dance & Song contains an article that mentions a Welsh > team from Swansea dancing at a huge international festival in Europe. [Sharon Green] And Paul Ross reported that he has an entire record of Welsh country dances. Sharon suggested putting this inquiry out to the ECD List, so: Can anyone elucidate why there seems to be such a large body of English, Scottish and Irish folk dances, yet so few Welsh dances? Is this in fact true, or are there lots of them, and are they just jealously guarded, or not as well researched, or not done much in the States, or otherwise not disseminated widely? No doubt I'll discover that, at least in part, the answer is that I'm more ignorant than I realized, but I see that more and more anyway, and I expect that after the replies are in I'll be wiser, at least in this area. Oh, yes -- anyone know where the hotbed of twmpath dancing is in the Eastern U.S.? Mike O'Connor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:17:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:24:18 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712161707.MAA29559-AT- ns.kreative.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > The essence of the original Red House instructions, paraphrased from > Jackson & Fogg, 1990, quoting Neal, 1726: > > Red house each strain twice > > 1's cast off to 2nd place; back to back: > 2's the same in their own places: > 1st man cast off and go around 2's, followed by his partner back > to their original places: > 1st woman the same, followed by her partner to places: > 1st man hey with the 2's: > 1st woman hey with the 2's; 1's cast into 2nd place. It took me longer than Eric to get back from the Philly ball. After hitting all 3 Bare Necessity dances that weekend, I headed up to the fields of frost and snow in northern New Hampshire for a week of cross-country skiing and other delights. So, I won't apologize for joining this thread so late, but I am happy to answer the earlier request for the full version of Red House from Playford. The _New Series_ ECD version of Red-House is from the 17th edition of the _Dancing Master_. This version differs from the one given above from Neal. As Marjorie McLaughlin noted, "Red-House" was published, almost identically in all editions of the Dancing Master_ from the 9th (1695, Henry Playford) through the 18th (1728, John Young). Walsh also published an identical version in both versions of his _Compleat Country Dancing-Master_ (1718 and 1731). (For trivia nuts, Playford/Young and _New Series_ hyphenate "Red-House," but Walsh spelled it out as 2 separate words.) The tune is essentially the same tune throughout Neal, Playford/Young and Walsh, but variations between editions are common. Eric paraphrased Neal accurately, but I'll play it safe and quote the text exactly. The following is "Red-House" from the 10th edition of the_Dancing Master_: The I. cu. meet and set and cast off into the 2. cu. place_. Then meet and set again, and cast off into their own places_: The I. man cast off below the 2. man, and go above the 2. wo. into the 2. man's place, his wo. following him at the same time_. Then the 2. wo. cast up above the I. wo. and go below the I. man into her own place, the I. man [sic, probably s/b "2. man"] following her at the same time_: Then the I. cu. and 2. man go the Hey till they come into their own places_. Then the I. cu. and 2. wo. go the Hey on the other side, and so cast off into the 2nd cu. place_: Note that the heys are definitely on the sides of the set. The chase is similar to those in the modern ECD as described by Sharon. The back to backs in the A's of the Neal version are lacking. (Although that might be a pleasing reconstruction--e.g., set forward to partner, cast and back to back. All that again, casting up to places.) The probably mistake exists in all editions and was not corrected by Walsh. P.S.: I've always been amused by Dan Seigel's description of Red House. He says the dance has 3 parts: "First the meeting, then the chase and then into the hey." ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:19:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:23:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Davis Subject: Re: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:03:49 -0800 "Michael J. O'Connor" wrote: > Can anyone elucidate why there seems to be such a large body of > English, Scottish and Irish folk dances, yet so few Welsh dances? > I believe that the Welsh dances were suppressed by us nice English when we took over as they were regarded as an expression of nationalism. So they died out a lot and there's only recently been interest in researching and reviving them. John Baker is a name that springs to mind, but I don't have a contact for him Paul ---------------------- Paul Davis Paul.davis-AT- oucs.ox.ac.uk Tel 01865-283414 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:39:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:17:04 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199712162017_MC2-2C37-9589-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Welsh country dancing" was taught at Pinewoods some years ago-- during ESS Week, I believe-- by Ron Wallace, of the Left Coast. The quotation marks are there because virtually all the material was indeed virtual-- R= on indicated the dances were invented in the absence of a continuing traditi= on much as Scottish country dances had been. And yes, Pat Shaw had a hand i= n it. As a musician for the class, I recall the published music for the dances having the crafted look and sound of Sharp's piano arrangements. Perhaps Ron can shed more light on this, if someone can attach him to our= forum... Gene Murrow EC Dancer and Musician and husband of the former Susan Roberts, a Welsh name if ever there was one. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:08:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:11:24 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Ramsay in St Louis A reaction to: > Can anyone elucidate why there seems to be such a large body of > English, Scottish and Irish folk dances, yet so few Welsh dances? I have the impression that many Scottish country dance forms died when the Royal Scottish society captured the field and standardized "acceptable form." Few dances seem to have survived in a robust folk form. In particular, it would seem to me that "set running" from eastern Kentucky and elsewhere in Appalachia would have a related dance in Scotland since so many of the Appalachian settlers were of Scottish origin. Well, yes, they were Scotch- Irish, and Irish traditional dance does seem to have a robust (lively, changeable, adaptive) character. Perhaps set running is entirely Irish. In Denmark the Danish Folk Dance Federation stamped out much indigenous dance by limiting their interest to 1750-1850. Any older dances were ignored and even suppressed. But, last year I did find a Dane who promised to send me a video of one of the old dances from one of the remote islands that he said was the equivalent of set running. A find like this would be evidence of a Nordic circle dance in duple-minor form. Since much Scottish culture is Nordic, one could have reason to be on the lookout for that dance form in Scotland. Folk dances can be victim of inter-ethnic power struggles, but they have also fallen victim to intra-ethnic elitism. I'm glad that country dancing in America seems to be robust. CDSS encourages the many adapting forms of traditional dance which meet the social needs of common folk. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:05:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:08:06 -0400 From: "Howard A. Markham" Subject: Re: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3497CEB5.DC2AEA9F-AT- mitre.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712152352.SAA06361-AT- mail1.panix.com> <3496B475.5B80-AT- erols.com> Just to throw out another name, Sean (sp? a woman) Fricke of Newark, Delaware, who is known to Scottish dancers in the Philadelphia area and English dancers in Dover and probably Philadelphia, teaches Welsh dancing. -- Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:21:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:26:12 -0500 (EST) From: Step