Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:51:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:54:48 -0500 From: dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712012254.RAA06284-AT- intrepid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello from West Virginia: I have a perhaps rather delicate question that I thought I'd ask of the good folks on this list. I love to dance. Recently, I have started dating a really nice fellow (I'm also male). He has indicated at least a passing interest in dance. I'd love to gradually get him to start coming to some of the various contra & English country dances with me. It would be wonderful to feel comfortable doing at least some of the dances in the course of an evening with him. My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. Keep on dancing, Dan Gillespie Dan Gillespie dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net Dan_Gillespie-AT- usgs.gov Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:32:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:35:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IQNX20XWEI94NY7N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Dan wrote: > My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the >greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've >attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, >except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this >subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. As far as I can tell, this varies considerably by region, and I suspect it varies considerably with age and general mellowness of the dancers. I have absolutely no idea what the story is in West Virginia. I'm told that in England, men _will not_ country dance together. What I've seen on the West Coast of the US is women often dancing together by preference, occasionally driven by gender imbalance, and men very occasionally dancing together by preference, somewhat more often because of gender imbalance. (At contra dances here, if there are "too many men" you'll see a lot of men sitting out, and some of them will leave the dance. This is not so strongly pronounced at English dances. I sometimes ask other "extra" men to dance, and am usually accepted at English dances and declined at contras.) [The men I see occasionally dancing together by preference are usually men assumed to be straight, as in being married to women.] But I think that isn't really what you're asking. I cannot speak for anywhere but the Bay Area, where I live and mostly dance. Here, at least, I wouldn't expect there to be any particular problem with an out male couple that danced several dances together each evening; I haven't seen this, but there hasn't been a problem with out female couples that do this. (The un-coupled dancing lesbians I know of tend to dance as bi.) This is all a good deal easier with English, where the parts are usually quite symmetrical, than with contra where the roles differ so much. I hope this works out well in _your_ community. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:33:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:37:10 -0500 From: Mary Beth Goodman Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't imagine a single reason for feeling uncomfortable dancing together. Presuming that you keep within the same bounds as any couple for proper out-in-public behavior (no serious petting etc etc etc) on what grounds could anyone object or feel uncomfortable themselves? I realize of course that one person's bounds aren't another's but your dance community will show you the way. I've felt uncomfortable in the past when people leer, ogle, grope etc or slobber all over each other, or gaze much too longingly into each others eyes, but hey - that's me.... sorta takes the mystery out of it I guess or something. And I particularly dislike it when someone (man OR woman) does any of these things to me without the slightest bit of interest indicated on my part... Since ECD is a social dance and has a great deal of couple-ness as part of it, I'd say go for it! Be happy and go out there and dance! Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:43:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wechsler Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712012345.SAA08391-AT- spork.bbn.com> References: <199712012254.RAA06284-AT- intrepid.net> Michael Cicone runs a gender-free English dance in Jamaica Plain, Boston, MA. I'd guess there must be similar dances in most places where there is a lot of ECD, but I don't know about your area. I understand that people of all sexual preferences attend and enjoy Michael's dances, although I haven't had the pleasure. -A ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:26:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:29:32 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dan, You ask [after some relevant stuff snipped out] > My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the > greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've > attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, > except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this > subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. In Ann Arbor we do have male couples by preference sometimes, and at least one dancer seems very comfortable in that role now. But I think there was a period of "testing the waters", so to speak, to get a sense for how the basically straight community would react. Most of the Ann Arbor folks seemed to accept it quite gracefully, but we do draw from a larger area than the town itself, and not everybody who comes to the dances here appreciates the local mindset on this topic. I think that those in our area who don't find this acceptable don't come back, and our local dance organization strongly supports participation of dancers regardless of sexual preference, so we don't consider this an appreciable loss. We are glad to have folks dancing however they want to dance. In most of the dances, however, the usual gender roles are generally recognized, but folks of any preference can and do mix up those roles from time to time, and aside from sometimes confusing some of the newer dancers a bit, it fits in fine. It does seem, however, that not all of the single-sex couples who want to dance feel comfortable in the regular dance scene. There is a gender-free dance in Ann Arbor, too, and it gets a larger number of same-sex couples, as well as a fair number of the dancers who also attend the gender-structured dances. As a dancer who enjoys the gender differentiation, but who also enjoys dancing in either role with partners of either sex, I feel that I enjoy the dances with gender roles more than those without, but I hope that the gender-role dances can be as welcoming as possible to individuals and couples of all types. I think most our local dancers share this hope, judging by by the way they respond. As a dance leader as well as a dancer, I retain gender roles in dances that have them traditionally or as structural components. As a dancer dancing a woman's role, I feel privileged that I am allowed to do that, and as a leader, I accept people dancing in whichever role suits them at the moment, but I retain the traditional nomenclature. I do not accept the idea that either men or women are degraded by being called by a gender-referencing term which is different from their natural gender. I regard both roles as having their own dignity, and whoever dances in a role accrues the dignity of that role; and if it is different from their natural role, they also retain their natural dignity, unless they choose to lose it by undignified behavior. Good dancing! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor P.S. For some good fun with folks who can take whomever comes at them in the dance set, a turn once-and-a-half at the end of Barbarini's Tambourine isn't bad... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 22:09:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Dan Gillespie wrote: > My question to you all is....how common is this sort of thing in the > greater world of English country dancing? At most of the dances that I've > attended, I don't think I've ever seen a same sex couple dancing together, > except out of necessity, due to a gender imbalance. All thoughts on this > subject are welcome, either posted to the list, or to me directly. As other recipients have mentioned in other notices, it seems to depend on where you are geographically. In the Baltimore-Washington area, where I live, it doesn't seem acceptable, unfortunately. Women do frequently dance together when there is an imbalance, and some men do also, but none of the regular attendees at either the regularly scheduled Baltimore or Washington dances are openly gay, nor is there any effort or seeming interest in getting the gay community in either city involved. (And the gay communities in both cities are quite large, and there seems to be some interest in this sort of thing - there's a gay square dance group that meets regularly, for instance - so this strikes me as a serious omission.) The contra dancers are even worse - in fact, some men won't even dance with women who aren't wearing skirts! Speaking for myself, I think dancing is a wonderful way to relate to a person (and can tell you a lot about a person too!). If the person you're dating is open to the possibility of attending an English dance, I'd say go for it. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:52:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:42:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Dan: I think it's going to be different for each local dance. Sorry to give an ambiguous answer, but dance groups, especially ECD groups, differ an awful lot in their social attitudes. I know that in St. Louis' ECD group lesbian and bi women have regularly danced together and been completely accepted. We haven't had "out" gay men in the group on a regular basis, so I can't say how they would be accepted, but I think our group would be cool with it. And I'm fairly sure the local contra group would be cool -- certainly men dance with one another at our Kimmswick dance weekend, quite aside from gender-imbalance stuff, and women dance together all the time. I know in the Boston area there's a regular gender-free dance scene, incorporating both ECD and contra dances. But how your group will respond, you probably know better than we do. Meanwhile, congratulations and best wishes! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:20:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:23:46 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: music on the web (SCA++) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712022123.QAA15258-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text Hi one and all. I've been putting music on my web page in various forms. This is mainly a collection of SCA dance music and I'm trying to get away from EC; but there will be some EC as well. I've started with the music of Mistress Ellisif. The sheet music is available on the page (basically freely-copyable for not-for-profit groups like the SCA) and so are the wopping big WAVE files (upto CD quality for blasting CDs). I've just setup a Real Audio server on my machine so people who have installed the free (or full blown) version can now listen to the music without having to wait for a big file to download. Basically Real Audio files are compressed by about a factor of 40 (trading off sound quality) and they play as they download (assuming your internet connection is fast enough). The smallest files I have are designed for a 28k baud modem. Check 'em out and let me know what you think. There will not be any recordings of real musicians; just converted MIDI files done with a good sound card (no not a NoiseBlaster 16 or 32). The problem being getting permissions. I'd love to have real recordings and will work on getting permissions ... http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/ellisif.html or more generally http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/sca-music.html or even more generally the page in my sig. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:03:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:06:21 -0600 From: Mike or Norma Briggs Subject: Re: music on the web (SCA++) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3484865D.6644-AT- execpc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712022123.QAA15258-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Eric Praetzel wrote: > > Hi one and all [etc] Sorry for dumb, but could Eric or someone explain what SCA dance music is? I've never heard of it, and I've been around both music and dance for longer than I want to remember. Am I the only dumb one? Mike Briggs -- ************************************************* Norma and Mike Briggs 1.608.2571600 (voice) Briggs Law Office 1.608.2571611 (fax) 1914 Monroe St Madison WI 53711-2057 USA brigglaw-AT- execpc.com ------------------------------------------------- A N E I G H B O R H O O D L A W O F F I C E ************************************************* ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:52:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: More Bernard Thomas Music ? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199712022252.RAA00907-AT- freenet6.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Have any more volumes of the "Playford Dances in 4-part settings", by Bernard Thomas, been published? I've got the first one and like it very much. Also, is the publisher, London Pro Musica, on the Internet? Thanks, Walter Brown Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:12:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:15:47 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: music on the web (SCA++) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712030315.WAA16651-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text Mike asked: > Sorry for dumb, but could Eric or someone explain what SCA dance music is The SCA is a a medieval cult err group :) Society for Creative Anachronism Actually they encompas recreating all aspects of medieval and renaissance life. Some of us like to dance in real costumes to real music done on period instruments. Sometimes we don't have those handy and so I've set up a web page to spread the music. Many of the dances tend to be 1, 2, or 3 couples in varous formations. Some of the really crazy ones take something like 4 men and 1 woman (now you know what to do with all of those extra men at dances!!!) - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 03:18:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: philippe.callens-AT- uia.ua.ac.be Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:19:22 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: New Years Workshop, Mortsel, Belgium To: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk, eba-AT- umich.edu, Veerle.Fack-AT- rug.ac.be, 106474.2112-AT- compuserve.com, dvorana-AT- login.cz, pwb-AT- mitre.org, rpg-AT- inforamp.net, HCORNELIUS-AT- mail.air-inc.com, WenCrouch-AT- aol.com, bernadette.custers-AT- vandale.nl, daa-AT- raayland.nl, michael-AT- dagnall.nl, b.g.donkersloot-AT- dnkrs.edith.antenna.nl, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, W.W.K.v.Eck.d.Vries-AT- urc.tue.nl, jmg-AT- scanview.com, 100331.3540-AT- compuserve.com, 100116.165-AT- compuserve.com, skevra-AT- marlboro.edu, ekorf-AT- worldonline.nl, lammersm-AT- jet.let.vu.nl, dans_lca-AT- knoware.nl, VANNAUI-AT- bp.com, madi.nelson-AT- wanadoo.fr, hall.nielsen-AT- glo.be, j.paul-AT- incaa.nl, l_ramsay-AT- hotmail.com, trio-AT- euronet.nl, Donald.Ross-AT- hks.se, jschreib-AT- eps.agfa.be, hugh-AT- sdl.ug.eds.com, Kerstin-AT- ic.uva.nl, Frans.Tromp-AT- net.HCC.nl, luc.vermeiren-AT- sd.be, vermeirl-AT- dma.be, fredz-AT- pi.net CC: aads-AT- club.innet.be Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34854E4A.4F00-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herewith you are all invited to the AADS NEW YEAR'S WORKSHOP & AFTERNOON DANCE "BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC" at Mortsel, Belgium, January 4, 1998 Every year AADS sponsors a New Year's Workshop on country dancing, followed by an afternoon dance. This year, Philippe Callens will teach the dances of the CD Both Sides of the Atlantic. This CD played by the Little Tinkers was published by the AADS last summer and contains a nice and not too complicated fare of English and American country dances. A great occasion for dancers and callers alike to improve their skills. The CD and the accompanying booklet will be available during the workshop. The morning workshop is followed by an afternoon dance featuring a variety of country dances. Although it is possible to attend only either workshop or dance, we invite you to participate all day long. Please apply for this event in advance. E-mail AADS at aads-AT- club.innet.be Venue: Den Wolschaerder, Liersesteenweg 314, 2640 Mortsel, Belgium. When: Sunday January 4, 1998, from 11 am to 1.15 pm and from 2.30 to 5.30 pm. Price per half day: BEF 125 In the USA, the CD is available through CDSS; in the UK through Cotswold Music; everybode else can purchase it through the AADS sales division. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 07:24:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:26:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. Beware. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 07:24:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:26:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. Beware. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:48:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:52:05 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712031652.LAA00874-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text Steve wrote: > The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live > music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, This experience has been oh so educational for me. I'm trying to get music out to people. "Freely copyable within the SCA" often means that you must copy it with all attributions and it is expected that if you are going to record it; that you have to get the arrangers permission. We often do public demonstrations and little did I suspect that the creater, arranger and musicians all have to give permission. Luckily Playford et al are long dead, the musicians and arrangers distant and everyone ignorant. Either way; what I have on the web is all synth'd; not one real musician. Ok, at some stage real instruments were recordered so I imagine that there were real musicians. Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the music (hence my comment about cards which use samples ie Gravis and cards that don't NoiseBlaster aka SoundBlaster 16/32/64).. For the files that are on the web page I have permission from the arranger and that is why I can't put the MIDI files there. They are small and sound only as good as your sound card is. The other files I have there (WAVE, RealAudio) sound as good as the card they were created on (not really a card; I used some software that emulates the Gravis sound cards - TiMidity) or they sound as good as the compression scheme used. ie I've created 2 types of RealAudio files. One can be heard over a 14k modem but it fairly distorted; while the other sounds half decent considering the file size (ie lacking clarity and brilliance but it is not really muddled as you would expect by lowering the bandwidth). So the files are there. If you've wondered about audio via the WWW I've got some RealAudio files up and running. I've tested them on Mac, Linux and Winblows 95 machines. I'm interested in hearing from people who have played the files via a 28k modem. I don't know which of the 2 RealAudio files they would be playing. I've made the higher quality RealAudio file available and anyone can play that (assuming that you have installed the RealAudio player). If other people want to put music onto the web; this is one way to do it. I'd put up some recordings of real musicians; except that the way music tapes get spread in the SCA (minus attributions); I'm not sure where half the stuff I have is from. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:39:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:42:21 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. Excuse me? My perception is that it was the anachronists who were "hounded off the list" and banished to an SCA-Dance list where we would not bother the "real scholars" who regard it as something done by performers for spectators. If Sharp had taken the attitude these academics do, the ECD movement would not exist. (When I pointed this out to one of them, she replied "But that's FOLK DANCE", as though a reconstruction from Playford was inherently less "worthy" of "protection".) Will Linden wlinden-AT- panix.com http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/ Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:57:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:00:12 -0600 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34859E2C.5DD1-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Will Linden wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > > > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. > Excuse me? My perception is that it was the anachronists who were > "hounded off the list" and banished to an SCA-Dance list where we would > not bother the "real scholars" who regard it as something done by > performers for spectators. OK folks, let's not start *this* flame war again. There were lots of ill manner on *both* sides of this debate. --Charlene (also an SCAer, but sometimes ashamed to admit it) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:36:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:40:19 -0500 From: dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: coming out To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712031840.NAA09808-AT- intrepid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello to the list! I want to send out my deepest thanks to everyone who has responded so openly & positively to my question about same sex dance partners! I am all fired up to give this a try now. Thanks to Alan, MAry Beth, Allan W, Eric, Dawn & Paul & everyone who responded to me privately. Your moral support really means a lot to me. With my fingers crossed for good luck, Dan Dan Gillespie dangilsp-AT- intrepid.net Dan_Gillespie-AT- usgs.gov Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:31:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:34:17 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I > dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) > > The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live > music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to > distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn > well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) > > Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. > Absolutely! (I'm a professional musician, and am only too well aware of the numerous ways professional musicians can be cheated out of their royalties - the method above being but one.) In addition, the SCA group's actions in this regard constitute infringement of copyright, which is simply illegal & can get you some nasty fines if you're caught. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:31:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:34:17 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Beware, oh beware, of the SCA and music. I was once a member of a > Renaissance dance list which became (a few years ago) a mostly-SCA list. I > dropped out after I got into some horrific arguments (moi? argue?) > > The SCA'ers on that list maintained that they had the right to record live > music for dances, regardless of the musicians' wishes, and then to > distribute and use those recordings among themselves as much as they damn > well pleased. (And to do the same with commercial recordings as well.) > > Well I suggested that was, essentially, theft at worst and bad manners at > best, I more or less got hounded off the list. I would assume that most > CDSS-types would agree with me in this regard. > Absolutely! (I'm a professional musician, and am only too well aware of the numerous ways professional musicians can be cheated out of their royalties - the method above being but one.) In addition, the SCA group's actions in this regard constitute infringement of copyright, which is simply illegal & can get you some nasty fines if you're caught. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:52:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:47:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Eric Praetzel wrote: > I'm trying to get music out to people. "Freely copyable within the SCA" often > means that you must copy it with all attributions and it is expected that if > you are going to record it; that you have to get the arrangers permission. Unless you have gotten said arranger's permission to copy and circulate his/her arrangements, circulating them is a violation of copyright. > We often do public demonstrations and little did I suspect that the creater, > arranger and musicians all have to give permission. Luckily Playford et al > are long dead, the musicians and arrangers distant and everyone ignorant. If you're using someone else's arrangement or recorded music for a public performance without permission or compensation you are legally liable, and the fact that the musicians and arrangers are distant means that you're in the same moral position as someone who steals from someone's house while they're out of town. Just because they don't know you're doing it doesn't make it legal. Or right. In the United States, the performance rights organizations (ASCAP & BMI) are in charge of selling the right to use a musician's performance, and while I have quite a few quarrels with the way they work, the law is very clear. To put it bluntly, you could get sued for a LOT of money. And if you're using the excuse that the musicians and arrangers are distant and "everyone ignorant", that probably sets you up for punitive damages right there. And, IMHO, rightly so. > Either way; what I have on the web is all synth'd; not one real musician. Ok, at > some stage real instruments were recordered so I imagine that there were real > musicians. Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the > music If I understand you correctly, you are sampling recordings by other musicians, and using the samples to generate MIDI files. The law on sampling is new, and still developing, but it's certainly been held in the courts that using the *sound* of someone's recording as an element in a new recording without permission or royalties is grounds for lotsa lawsuits. I don't know what cases, if any, have been brought over the generation of MIDI files, but if you're using the arrangements from a pre-existing recording without permission or royalties, again you're letting yourself in for a big lawsuit, and IMHO again rightly so. Please quit stealing other people's work. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:25:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 02:27:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IQRCC7OQMA94XBJN-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Folks -- Could people stop beating up on Eric for a while? As far as I can tell, he has gone to some trouble to produce a web site free of copyright violation - more below. I think Steve Corrsin's post has predisposed some of us to read more evil into what Eric says than is actually there. I'll argue in the rest of the post with Paul's interpretations, because I have them handy. Eric can say whether or not I've understood him correctly. Before proceeding, I'll mention that I'm not an SCA member and it's not my scene at all. I do have some friends who are members. Also, paying attention on the RENDANCE list has shown me that some SCA dance people are extremely serious about their scholarship and about intellectual property rights; some aren't. It isn't a good idea to lump them all together. Oh, and I speak only as myself, without any authority I might be presumed (by the ill-informed) to have as list-owner. > = Eric + = Paul >On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Eric Praetzel wrote: > I'm trying to get music out to people. "Freely copyable within the SCA" often > means that you must copy it with all attributions and it is expected that if > you are going to record it; that you have to get the arrangers permission. +Unless you have gotten said arranger's permission to copy and circulate +his/her arrangements, circulating them is a violation of copyright. I think Eric is talking about arrangements that have been made by SCA people. The arrangers mark them "Freely copyable within the SCA" by which they grant that permission to copy and circulate; one is required to retain attributions, and to go back and get explicit permission if one intends to record them. > We often do public demonstrations and little did I suspect that the creater, > arranger and musicians all have to give permission. Luckily Playford et al >are long dead, the musicians and arrangers distant and everyone ignorant. Note that "little did I suspect" is in the past tense. Now he knows, and he's trying to do better. That "luckily" applies to not getting into trouble for past acts, not as a moral cover for continuing to do this. [My question here: If one buys Marshall Barron's books of ECD arrangements, is one required to write for explicit permission in order to actually use them? I can certainly understand needing to do this, and to pay a royalty, if one records them, but what about just playing them for dancing?] +If you're using someone else's arrangement or recorded music for a public +performance without permission or compensation you are legally liable, +and the fact that the musicians and arrangers are distant means that +you're in the same moral position as someone who steals from someone's +house while they're out of town. Just because they don't know you're +doing it doesn't make it legal. Or right. In the United States, the +performance rights organizations (ASCAP & BMI) are in charge of selling the +right to use a musician's performance, and while I have quite a few +quarrels with the way they work, the law is very clear. To put it +bluntly, you could get sued for a LOT of money. And if you're using the +excuse that the musicians and arrangers are distant and "everyone +ignorant", that probably sets you up for punitive damages right there. +And, IMHO, rightly so. I think Eric is saying that he knows this now. > Either way; what I have on the web is all synth'd; not one real musician. Ok, at > some stage real instruments were recordered so I imagine that there were real > musicians. Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the > music +If I understand you correctly, you are sampling recordings by other +musicians, and using the samples to generate MIDI files. The law on +sampling is new, and still developing, but it's certainly been held in +the courts that using the *sound* of someone's recording as an element in +a new recording without permission or royalties is grounds for lotsa +lawsuits. I don't know what cases, if any, have been brought over the +generation of MIDI files, but if you're using the arrangements from a +pre-existing recording without permission or royalties, again you're +letting yourself in for a big lawsuit, and IMHO again rightly so. I think you understand him incorrectly. I think he's saying that the makers of his synthesizer software once paid a musician to play an "A" on a flute for the purpose of having it digitized and made available to users of the software; now when the MIDI package tells the synth to play an A as though it were a flute, out it comes. All legal and correct. +Please quit stealing other people's work. I believe he has quit stealing other people's work, once he realized that that's what common practice in the SCA was actually doing. Not only that, he's trying to provide a resource of legal, not-copyright-violating, permissions-granted music for other SCA people so they can keep up their dance activities without stealing other people's work. I think this is commendable, and we should stop beating up on him. Nobody here has yet defended the proposition that copyright violation is acceptable. We aren't having an argument. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:41:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 07:44:41 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712041244.HAA11960-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text > If you're using someone else's arrangement or recorded music for a public > performance without permission or compensation you are legally liable, I still find that loony. If someone wrote a book it makes sense to get their permission. But here you have a case where several layers of people are necessary to get the final product and we're just using the music in the context of a not-for-profit group to show people some dances. As far as the SCA goes things have been changing. We have more an more people interested in period arrangements of the music. This has been spured by people using period instruments to play the darn stuff. Most of the society is still involved with fighting, armouring, politics and horsing around; but the arts and sciences are growing. > > Those recordings of the instruments are used to generate the music > If I understand you correctly, you are sampling recordings by other > musicians, and using the samples to generate MIDI files. Not really. The instrument is recorded playing anywhere from one to all of the notes that it is capable of playing. A good clean segment of that is selected and they are all grouped together into a "patch" file. The sound card takes those small segments and extends them; adds an envelope (vibrato or whatever) and thereby recreates the sound of the instrument. The idea being that if your sound is created from a sample of the instrument it will have many of the qualities of that instrument. Of course it does not come close to expressing the full voice of any instrument. This is in contast to other sound cards like the Soundblaster which can only play back recorded samples or use modified FM synthesis to try and recreate the sound of an instrument. Does recording an 1/4 note of music amount to having to credit some person blowing into a flute? Gawd I hope not. Wahoo for studio musicians who don't get credit for anything anyway at anytime :) [you may have noticed my tongue in cheek] - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:54:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 01:54:09 -0600 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Redhouse To: English Country Dance List Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3487B320.46E7-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of it? --Charlene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:49:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:51:45 -0700 (MST) From: Rebecca Gore Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051851.LAA12290-AT- amber.math.unm.edu> I have heard of Redhouse Reel which is a Scottish country dance. Think this might be it? Rebecca Gore ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:08:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:11:14 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051911.OAA15978-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:54 AM 12/5/97 -0600, Charlene Charrette wrote: >Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". >I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of >it? Red-House is found in Country Dance Book, New Series, selected by Douglas & Helen Kennedy [English Folk Dance & Song Society, c 1979]. It comes from Volume I (1721) of "The Dancing Master." A1 (1-4) Ones meet & fall back (5-8) " set forward & cast down [Twos move up] A2 (1-4) " meet & fall back (5-8) " set forward & cast up [Twos move down] B1 (1-8) Chase: 1st Man [followed by partner] casts off below 2nd Man & dances up center round 2nd Woman into 2nd Man's place [Twos move up] B2 (1-8) Chase: 2nd Woman [followed by partner] casts below 1st Woman & dances up center round 1st Man into her own place [Ones move up] C1 (1-8) 2nd Man starts Hey for 3 with Ones [skip change] C2 (1-8) 2nd Woman starts Hey for 3 with Ones " Great dance, great music--I should put it on a program sometime soon! Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:11:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:13:44 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051913.OAA16400-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:51 AM 12/5/97 -0700, Rebecca Gore wrote: >I have heard of Redhouse Reel which is a Scottish country dance. Think >this might be it? > Different dance, but also a great one. Sharon Green [swiftly gaining a reputation as never having met a dance she didn't like...] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:45:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:47:24 -0500 (EST) From: Allan Wechsler Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712051947.OAA19282-AT- spork.bbn.com> References: <3487B320.46E7-AT- flash.net> [Charlene Charette:] Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of it? There certainly is an ECD called that, but I think it's spelled with two words, "Red House". My memory is shaky, but I think it's a brisk 4/4 duple minor. I'm humming what I think is the tune but I don't have a convenient way to type it in. -A ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:27:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:29:38 -0600 From: Charlene Charette Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34886432.4DE2-AT- flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712051911.OAA15978-AT- mail2.panix.com> Sharon Green wrote: > Red-House is found in Country Dance Book, New Series, selected by Douglas & > Helen Kennedy [English Folk Dance & Song Society, c 1979]. It comes from > Volume I (1721) of "The Dancing Master." I believe this is what he was looking for. Thanks everyone! --Charlene ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:37:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Rebecca Gore wrote: > I have heard of Redhouse Reel which is a Scottish country dance. Think > this might be it? "Red House" is definitely an ECD; we've done it in St. Louis. I gather the Scottish version is quite similar, but not identical. As a musician, I can tell you the tune is a great one (we found the tune in Barnes 3.1 and asked the caller of the time if she'd call it; she did, to great acclaim). Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:21:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712052123.QAA05372-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:29 PM 12/5/97 -0800, Paul Stamler wrote: >"Red House" is definitely an ECD; we've done it in St. Louis. I gather >the Scottish version is quite similar, but not identical. Since the Scottish version keeps on coming up, I checked my RSCDS pocket edition index and found Red House [or Where Would Bonnie Annie Lie?] in vol. 7. [This clearly is a s-l-o-w day in Chelsea...] The Scottish version is 40 bars long, not 48: they leave out the advance and retire for the Ones. I don't know whether we're dealing with an abridged version of the tune in Barnes or something entirely different--Bruce Hamilton or Jenny Beer or David Newitt would probably know. The major difference between the Scottish Red House & ours is that theirs is even more stacked in favor of the actives than ours is: in the Scottish version, first the 1st Man leads the chase, then the 1st Woman leads a chase. No pursuit for the Twos. However, given the shortness of a Scottish set, that's fair enough. The second couple gets to be active soon enough. Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:27:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:28:25 -0500 From: bec-AT- pobox.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712052228.RAA19663-AT- sunspot.excalib.com> > The major >difference between the Scottish Red House & ours is that theirs is even more >stacked in favor of the actives than ours is: in the Scottish version, first >the 1st Man leads the chase, then the 1st Woman leads a chase. No pursuit >for the Twos. I've danced this version, with only the ones doing the chase, at an ECD in Philadelphia. bec ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 05:21:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:20:04 +0100 From: Antony Heywood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Survey Pride and Prejudice To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: <199712061324.OAA26197-AT- IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pride and Prejudice Dance Day in Eindhoven, the Netherlands attracted 150 people and because we had originally expected 40 to 50, we decided to hold a survey to ascertain how they heard about it and what attracted them about the day. The results of this survey will be published in our magazine at the beginning of January but they will be in Dutch, so here for members of the list is an English translation. 83 participants (55%) filled in the questionnaire. Sources of information: For members of the NVS, the most important source of information was the society's two-monthly magazine. Non-members obtained their information mainly from friends closely followed by the handbill which had been widely distributed to folk dance groups and placed in large public libraries. Internet was not a source of information which is hardly surprising considering we came on-line only a week before the event! Six people came as a result of an exhibition of costumes from Pride and Prejudice which had been held at the West Fries Museum in Hoorn from December 1996 to March 1997 and where we had had leaflets. Four people (and more who didn't fill in the form) came through a Period Dance Group (Pierewaaiers) in Nijmegen (50 km away). Reasons for coming: Being able to dance and the English tea were given as the most important reasons for coming. Non-members gave watching the dancing, interest in Jane Austen and interest in English culture as important reasons. 95% of members gave dancing as the most important reason aginst 51% of non-members. 8 people gave as reason the meeting of old friends. 38 of the replies (45%) were from members and 81% of these were people who come regularly to society activities. For those who may be interested, nine photos of the event have been posted on the NVS Website http://www.iae.nl/users/antony/ Antony Heywood The Netherlands ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:14:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 15:23:46 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3489B452.72-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712051911.OAA15978-AT- mail2.panix.com> Sharon Green wrote: > > [Ones move up] > C1 (1-8) 2nd Man starts Hey for 3 with Ones [skip change] > C2 (1-8) 2nd Woman starts Hey for 3 with Ones " > > Great dance, great music--I should put it on a program sometime soon! Sharon and All - I've called a little different version - more egalitarian in the A parts and a slightly different chase figure (though who can tell with everyone caroming all over the place...?) and the heys are with the 2s BUT the progression is a hurried 1s cast and 2s move up on the last two bars of the last C. I've read and read the Sharp directions that you posted and don't see a progression anywhere. Is it me? Mary (Should Probably Double That Old Store-Bought Estrogen) Jones Amherst, MA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:34:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:44:03 +0100 From: Antony Heywood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712070836.JAA13436-AT- IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to come late into this discussion and after Charlene seems to have got a satisfactory reply: > Someone emailed me looking for instructions for the dance "Redhouse". > I'm not entirely certain if this is an ECD or what. Has anyone heard of > it? There are two other ECD dances with this name (well, one English and one Welsh): Red House appears in Neal (c. 1726) and the Welsh one is called Red House of Cardiff, a dance mad popular by Pat Shaw. Antony Heywood ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 09:58:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:00:41 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712071800.NAA24209-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:23 PM 12/6/97 -0500, Mary Jones wrote: >Sharon Green wrote: >> >> [Ones move up] >> C1 (1-8) 2nd Man starts Hey for 3 with Ones [skip change] >> C2 (1-8) 2nd Woman starts Hey for 3 with Ones " >> >> Great dance, great music--I should put it on a program sometime soon! > >Sharon and All - > >I've called a little different version - more egalitarian in the A parts and a >slightly different chase figure (though who can tell with everyone caroming all >over the place...?) and the heys are with the 2s BUT the progression is a hurried >1s cast and 2s move up on the last two bars of the last C. > >I've read and read the Sharp directions that you posted and don't see a >progression anywhere. Is it me? Mary is of course correct--Ones cast in bars 7-8 of C2. I'd started putting in the instructions as an afterthought & had to deal with Yet Another Universal Crisis before I finished. And who rereads? Sharon [Why Progress When You're Having Such Fun Right Where You Are?] Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:31:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 14:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RLHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01IQW969ZRUA94FQMB-AT- amherst.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Hello, all, The "more egalitarian" alternate B2 that Mary is referring to, where 2nd woman casts up followed by her partner, is suggested as an alternate figure in the Neal directions. (Does anyone know whether that was an editorial suggestion from Rich Jackson and George Fogg? Rich, are you out there?) We do do this dance in Amherst a lot. It is a favorite with dancers and musicians alike. Robin Hayden ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 13:02:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:04:52 -0500 From: Martin.Fager-AT- bowne.com (Martin Fager) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re[2]: Pride and Prejudice Day of Dance in Eindhoven, Hollan To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <0004BEA5.1618-AT- bowne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A rather late reply - Country Dance New York is doing better, thank you, but most of the newbies that were brought in by the NY Times article have drifted away. (It's been 8 months since the article was published.) I would estimate that we have gained 8-10 regulars. Attendance at our regular Tuesday night English dances is still larger than before, but financially, these dances are only at a breakeven level, and I would love to increase the attendance. We need about two NY Times articles per year! Marty Fager --------------------------------------------------------------------- [Alan Winston wrote] Actually, the last I heard -- which was, admittedly, a little while ago -- CDNY was reeling under the onslaught (I mean, actually, dealing splendidly well with) the huge number of new English dancers brought in by the famed New York Times article, celebrated in song and story, or at least in that dance by Colin Hume. So I thought it vaguely possible that you might not be quite as actively interested in publicity and recruiting right at the moment. -- Alan (PS: Should there be a Scottish dance called "Reeling Under the Onslaught?") =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:26:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:26:39 -0500 From: The Dupre Family Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Was this in YOUR newspaper? To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BD0406.E9C10D60-AT- ppp32.nerc.com> I did a job Saturday night in which I served as dancing mistress for the Coryell Ferry Militia's annual ball - it's a holiday ball for colonial reenactors. I've done this several years, and it was the usual great event (it's one of my favorite calling jobs each year) except that a reporter and a photographer from the Associated Press were in attendance to do an article for publication today. It made it into my paper but of course there's local relevance, but I note it didn't make it into the NY Times. So, I'm curious about how whether it was interesting enough to papers in other regions to get published. Did any of you run across it? I'd better point out that this is not going to make me rich and famous and isn't going to make historic dancing famous either. Although the reporter talked to me for awhile, she focussed the article on the reenactors rather than the dancing, and the closest I come to getting mentioned is the sentence "Amid candlelight and the strains of 18th century jigs and reels and other traditional tunes, gentlemen and their ladies twirled and sashayed to the caller's instructions." Just curious, Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc.com ph: (609) 844-0459 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:06:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: bolker-AT- phoenix.Princeton.EDU Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 20:07:49 -0500 (EST) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Was this in YOUR newspaper? To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Sue Dupre wrote: > I did a job Saturday night in which I served as dancing mistress for the > Coryell Ferry Militia's annual ball - it's a holiday ball for colonial > reenactors. I've done this several years, and it was the usual great event > (it's one of my favorite calling jobs each year) except that a reporter and > a photographer from the Associated Press were in attendance to do an > article for publication today. It made it into my paper but of course > there's local relevance, but I note it didn't make it into the NY Times. > So, I'm curious about how whether it was interesting enough to papers in > other regions to get published. Did any of you run across it? (hi, sue!) yes, i ran across it, though not in a newspaper: it was on the radio this morning (whyy-fm philadelphia), at about 9 a.m. during morning edition. the organizer, bob gerenser, who plays general washington this year, was mentioned by name, but not the caller. susie lorand ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:52:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:53:02 -0800 From: metis-AT- mcs.mcs.csuhayward.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712090753.XAA03659-AT- seki.mcs> The appended message is reprinted with permission from a recent discussion on the Strathspey Scottish Dance mailing list. Red House has also been interpreted in an RSCDS fashion and appears as Sharon pointed out, in Book VII #2. Having danced both (and this is rare for me in English vs. Scottish comparisons), I actually prefer the SCD version, which is in essence: 1-8 1's set and cast off one place; set again and cast up one place 9-24 1st woman chases partner around the 2's; 1'st man chases 1 woman back to place 25-40 Actives dance 8 bar reel of 3 with 2nd man on men's side of dance; then rell of 3 with 2nd woman on woman's side of dance. In the English version where the 1's chase, then the 2's chase, neither chase is as satisfying; there is less time for frivolity, and the "surprise" of the tables being turned is completely lost. The reels of three in the SCD version are ideosyncratic but very satisfying, with the first man plunging out the bottom of the first reel and into the bottom of the second one. The ECD heys are standard for a triple, but the SCD version is a duple. Did Playford not specify? I'd be very curious to see the full version of the original playford and how these variations may have arisen. The first edition of Playford is on the web (Thanks, Eric), but not one of the later editions with Red House. Tom Tom Roby Department of Math & CS troby-AT- mcs.csuhayward.edu California State University [Fax] 510-885-4169 25800 Carlos Bee Blvd. [Off] 510-885-2691 Hayward, CA 94542-3092 http://www.mcs.csuhayward.edu/~troby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:46:24 -0500 (EST) From: RSCDSSD-AT- aol.com To: strathspey-AT- tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de Subject: Re: Changed Red House tune Message-ID: <971104112930_-291238595-AT- emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-03 03:21:52 EST, Anselm writes: > Red House is one of those dances that go back all the way to Playford's > _Compleat_English_Dancing_Master_. If I remember correctly, the Playford > instructions are something like > > 1-4 1st couple set to partner twice > 5-8 1st couple cast off into 2nd place > 9-12 1st couple set to partner twice > 13-16 1st couple cast up into 1st place > > (apply RSCDS-to-Playford terminology filter to instructions above) and > from then on it goes on as usual. Apparently somebody thought that this > was too much of a good thing and shortened this bit into 8 bars. > Actually, the Playford instructions are slightly different, though the barring does indeed include 8 bars that the RSCDS instructions eliminated. The dance first appears in Playford's 9th edition (1695) and is printed in every subsequent edition through 1728. Walsh, in his usual fashion, lifted it directly from Playford for his 1718 and 1731 publications. It is the Walsh edition of 1731 that the RSCDS cites as its source, but the directions are identical with Playford. The A part of the music is repeated in these original publications, though the dance directions are: "The 1. cu. meet and sett and cast off into the 2. cu. place. Then meet and sett again and cast off into their own places". His use of "cast off" in the second A part is probably a just an idiosyncratic usage. The 1st couple are clearly to end up back in top place. The next instruction is "The 1. Man cast off below the 2. Man . . ." The extra bars come with the figure "meet" which is the instruction now used in English country dances, "meet and fall back a double". It is a four bar advance and retire-like movement and is used in the English Folk Dance and Song Society reconstruction of Red House, a 48 bar dance. I do wish the RSCDS had retained all 48 bars as I think it suits the tune, but at least we've got the basic melody line. As for what happens in the last 16 bars, I'm working on that and hope to write it as an article for TACTalk. Several interesting interpretations present themselves. Marjorie McLaughlin RSCDS SD-AT- aol.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:30:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:32:58 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Red House To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 metis-AT- mcs.mcs.csuhayward.edu wrote: [Hi, Tom! You sure do move around!] [snip] . . . Having danced both (and this is rare for me in > English vs. Scottish comparisons), I actually prefer the SCD version, > which is in essence: > > 1-8 1's set and cast off one place; set again and cast up one place > 9-24 1st woman chases partner around the 2's; 1'st man chases 1 woman > back to place > 25-40 Actives dance 8 bar reel of 3 with 2nd man on men's side of dance; > then rell of 3 with 2nd woman on woman's side of dance. > > In the English version where the 1's chase, then the 2's chase, neither > chase is as satisfying; there is less time for frivolity, and the > "surprise" of the tables being turned is completely lost. The reels of > three in the SCD version are ideosyncratic but very satisfying, with the > first man plunging out the bottom of the first reel and into the bottom > of the second one. The ECD heys are standard for a triple, but the SCD > version is a duple. Did Playford not specify? The ECD version that I have in "normally" (I.e. not a ball program) form comes from Jackson & Fogg's "A Choice Collection..." from Neal (1726, I think, or thereabouts) which I think was published originally in Ireland. They have the original instructions included there, and as I recall their interpretation is closer to that than the version (Sharp?) which Sharon Green gave. It is also closer to the Scottish version you have given here, and is, as I recall, duple minor. But I believe the heys are across the set, not up and down. The original might have been ambiguous on this, if it simply said who was doing the hey, but not where -- it in principle could go across, up and down, or on the diagonal for a hey for three involving the first couple and second man, and this grouping can also be described as the first woman with the two men. In the latter form, it is usually interpreted, I think, as a hey on the side (as in Kelsterne Gardens, Portsmouth, etc.), which became a *very* common figure in the ECDs of the mid- to latter-18th century. Perhaps because of this commonality it might appeal to ECDers more as a hey across... > > I'd be very curious to see the full version of the original playford and > how these variations may have arisen. The first edition of Playford is > on the web (Thanks, Eric), but not one of the later editions with Red > House. If no one else gets to it first (please do!) I'll put up the original instructions as given in Jackson & Fogg, but it might not happen for a day or two, since I have a dance to lead tonight and I just got back from a *delightful* weekend of Bare Necessities revelry in Princeton, Philadelphia, and New York. Eric (a *different* Eric!) Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:52:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:55:25 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Philadelphia Ball (long) To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Mostly Playford Ball held this past Saturday at the Sun Center in Aston, PA with the well-orchestrated efforts of the Germantown Country Dancers was a very remarkable experience for me. The Sun Center, I believe, gets its name from the Sun Oil Company, and it seemed to consist of a *very* large gymnasium with peripheral rooms. It had a wooden floor presumably over concrete, the requsite basketball backboards and nets, and an arched semi-elliptical ceiling supported by massive laminated-wood beams which gave the space a much less cluttered feel than the network of steel girders that one often sees in structures of this type. Between these wood beams, the ceiling was uniformly covered with large slabs of some sort of architectural/acoustical tile that was somewhat porous. I understand that they went to this hall after they were unsuccessful in obtaining the Great Hall of the Thomas Library on the Bryn Mawr campus, where the ball has been held in recent years, and which is a gorgeous room with difficult acoustical properties. I was dismayed at first when I walked into the Sun Center to find myself staring into this huge gym. But there was someone from the practice band there playing for a sound test, and I was immediately struck by how clear the sound was, clear across the room. It was definitely *not* a hall filled with echoes, out of which I had to struggle to identify the tune and the rhythm; but the sound did not feel lost and isolated, either. I looked at the ceiling and noticed the wood beams, the shape, and the tile. The band was placed on one side where the ceiling curved down to meet the wall. Four loudspeakers along the wall by the band were doing quite well at filling the hall, I thought. The room was not full yet -- I was a bit early for the afternoon practice session. Some decorations were up, and some folks were working at putting up more. During the practice session, the dancers made their usual hubbub, and sometimes it was hard to hear things before they settled down to listen, but it did not seem to be too hard to get them to quiet down, and when they did, I found it easy to understand the spoken instructions. I have a bit of a hearing loss in a way that makes it hard for me to understand speech in the presence of background noise, and this is often a difficult time for me if I don't know the dance already. It was not a problem this time, and not because I knew everything -- I didn't. In the evening, the appearance of the gym had been transformed wonderfully by tasteful arrays of greens, lights, and lattice screens; green boughs dripped plentifully from the basket hoops and covered the backboards so that you didn't realize what they were unless you looked closely, or wondered where they went... The lights were strings of tiny, clear bulbs suspended just a bit over the heads of the dancers, along with hazy blue cloth banners and more greens -- an enormous amount of work to put up, I'm sure -- and helped to make us less aware of the cavernous space above that. The lattice screens defined the perimeter of the dance area, and also had greens and lights; arches provided entranceways into the dance space, and it was really delightful. But for me, the absolute best part was the result of the acoustical properties of the space, combined with the superb understanding of how to provide sound reinforcement in such a space by the incomparable Bob Mills. With a band like Bare Necessities, which will frequently take much liberty with the melody and quite a bit with the rhythm as well, it is essential to be able to hear clearly what they are doing, and in a number of the grander halls, unfortunately the acoustical properties of the halls can make dancing more difficult and stressful. In this hall, I felt I could *really* hear what the band was doing, and I sensed that others were having the same experience. People seemed, in general, more relaxed, and were dancing in a way that I found very satisfying. Having ample room contributed to this as well. Perhaps the most remarkable thing that I noticed is that during the dances themselves, people seemed much quieter than usual -- whether they were talking just as much as usual, but it didn't contribute to the usual din, or whether they were actually quieter than usual, I'm not sure -- but I *think* that they were quieter, because for a change they could really hear the wonderful music that Bare Necessities can make, without it all being muddled together for the last two measures by the echos of the typical hall. At the same time, I never felt that the music was painfully loud, except perhaps for one brief time when I was standing out near a loudspeaker at the top, and Peter hit a high not on the flute or a little pipe; and this was also in contrast to my feelings at some events of this type. I did hear of some complaints to the sound person that some people found the sound a little thin toward the back of the dance space, but I hadn't felt that way. I don't know if Bob was able to correct this satisfactorily for them, but if he did, it didn't decrease my enjoyment. I thought it was superb, and that it was a major factor in a very successful event. I asked Mary Lea how it felt for her, and she essentially said that it was a bit hard for the band to hear each other, and that she preferred a hall that felt brighter, such as the place we were in at the time, the Seminary in New York where CD*NY holds its Yuletide Cotillion the following Sunday afternoon. But there is no comparison for me as a dancer -- the music there I find very muddled, and much less satisfying, even though everything else about the location is completely delightful. Perhaps more strength in the musician's monitors in the Sun Center would solve that for the band... I understand the use of the Sun Center was a one-time arrangement, and that it was unusually expensive. But it was a wonderful experience for me, and a rare opportunity to see just how much of an effect the hall acoustics can have on one of these events. The acoustical effects are usually negative... So many thanks to all of the Philly folks who put such an effort into finding this place and transforming it so magically into the site of such a delightful evening! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:51:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: bolker-AT- phoenix.Princeton.EDU Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:53:22 -0500 (EST) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Philadelphia Ball--sound credit To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Eric Arnold wrote: > But for me, the absolute best part was the result of the acoustical > properties of the space, combined with the superb understanding of how to > provide sound reinforcement in such a space by the incomparable Bob Mills. wasn't it david murray who was in charge of sound for the phila. ball? bob mills wasn't at the ball, but he did the sound for the *friday* night dance in princeton with bare necessities. i second eric's praise of the sound arrangements for the ball. much as i love the thomas library's ambience, the music was a great deal easier to hear in the sun center. - susie lorand princeton, nj ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:17:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Philadelphia Ball--sound credit To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Susie Lorand wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Eric Arnold wrote: > > > But for me, the absolute best part was the result of the acoustical > > properties of the space, combined with the superb understanding of how to > > provide sound reinforcement in such a space by the incomparable Bob Mills. > > wasn't it david murray who was in charge of sound for the phila. ball? > bob mills wasn't at the ball, but he did the sound for the *friday* night > dance in princeton with bare necessities. Is that right? If so, my sincere apologies to the *real* sound person -- but I thought I saw Bob there (could I have confused them? I don't know David Murray), and had a recollection of hearing an acknowledgement consistent with what I said. Perhaps I was not listening attentively then, assuming I already knew who did the sound. Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:28:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:18:03 -0500 From: marthacd-AT- juno.com (Martha C Davey) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Philadelphia Ball decorations To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971209.191845.4358.2.marthacd-AT- juno.com> References: On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:55:25 -0500 (EST) Eric Arnold writes: >In the evening, the appearance of the gym had been transformed >wonderfully by tasteful arrays of greens, lights, and lattice screens; green >boughs dripped plentifully from the basket hoops and covered the backboards >so that you didn't realize what they were unless you looked closely, or >wondered where they went... The lights were strings of tiny, clear >bulbs suspended just a bit over the heads of the dancers, along with hazy >blue cloth banners and more greens -- an enormous amount of work to put up, >I'm sure -- and helped to make us less aware of the cavernous space above >that. The lattice screens defined the perimeter of the dance area, >and also had greens and lights; arches provided entranceways into the >dance space, and it was really delightful. Credit for these wonderful decorations should go to Leslie Talon who put in innumerable hours of effort to achieve the wonderful effects. Martha Davey Temporary Phone # (941)792-9323 Probably Back in NY by the Winter Solstice (718)278-4389 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:40:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:43:04 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know what you mean by your comments about scholars. Have you met any real ones? My contention is, as you may know, that if living members of CDS (or non-members, for that matter) would try to do the dances as they were originally done, they'd have a very good time, and do some lovely dancing. Julia Sutton Musicologist, Dance Historian Prof. emerita ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:14:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712101318.IAA20563-AT- sca.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text > I don't know what you mean by your comments about scholars. At this point neither do I! I don't believe that I've used that word in a posting for quite a long time; if ever. Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you are talking about. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:21:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR09Q0TW5294NY7N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Julia Sutton wrote: >I don't know what you mean by your comments about scholars. Have you met >any real ones? I think the first line is in response to my comments about SCA dance people; I said (or meant to say; I haven't gone back to see what I did say) that the level of scholarship varied dramatically. There are definitely folks who've learned only through oral tradition within the SCA, and don't know how much of what they know is in any sense authentic vs. recent invention; there are others who have taught themselves enough Italian to puzzle out some primary sources. On the RENDANCE list I have seen the latter sort asking, collegially, for opinions on their reconstructions or information of variant interpretations. For hobbyists, it seems to me the latter sort are being pretty scholarly. Patri Pugliese, whom I understand to have been an SCA baron, makes available inexpensive photocopies of historical dance texts; my Wilson "Complete System of Country Dancing" is from him. There are people who publish an SCA dance journal, the Letter of Dance, some of the contributions to which are fairly scholarly (and some are merely amusing). [I don't think it's a peer-reviewed journal, though.] Some of the SCA dance people in the Bay Area eagerly flock to any classes held by Angene Feves or Richard Powers. So that's what I mean by scholars in the SCA. >My contention is, as you may know, that if living members >of CDS (or non-members, for that matter) would try to do the dances as >they were originally done, they'd have a very good time, and do some >lovely dancing. It would at least be an interesting exercise. I hope that Julia isn't arguing that 'authentic' dancing be universally substituted for 'Sharp-style' ECD; I suspect many people would simply stop, finding it too great an investment of effort for their reward. (And of course the dances written this century to be done in Sharp's style would have to be discarded.) Whether they'd have a good time would depend on the members and their tastes. I love Sharp-style English Country Dance. (I was just looking at the Country Dance Book again, in aid of setting straight someone on the Morris Dance Discussion List; I was reminded that I admire Sharp's field work, am appalled by his scholarship, and am completely in tune with his aesthetics.) I took Jody McGeen's "ECD with Baroque Steps" workshop (a two-evening course in conjunction with the Stanford Baroque Week) a few years back, and found it interesting and enlightening but not particularly satisfying. (My reaction to Stan Isaacs' multi-week Regency quadrille course was similar, except that I've found more of those steps useful outside of the class; the step vocabulary fits very well into the Revolutionary-era American dance that's a side interest of mine.) Footwork does not come easily to some people; I'm among them. Sharp-style ECD is a very accessible form that lets people like me enjoy dancing full-heartedly to beautiful music; I don't want to lose it. There is, on the other foot, a good deal of satisfaction in doing steps that absolutely fit the music. Drapers' Maggot really wants a minuet step; Fried Herman isn't afraid to call for it in her reconstruction. The timing in Hole in the Wall makes a good deal more sense with the steps Jody taught than with a simple walking step. So I'm not arguing with what Julia wrote, above, although to fully agree with it, I'd have to change it to "they *might* have a very good time". She doesn't actually suggest abandoning Sharp-style ECD; I couldn't support it if she did. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:11:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:13:46 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #277:SCA and music To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well yes, I am a purist, and would like everyone to agree with me. If everyone would, then we could treat Sharp's style as an interesting product of a later day having a distant relationship with the originals, and a facet of the history of English Country Dance without giving it the adulation it now receives. Sharp created a "folkdance" in the style of the late-nineteenth century--pictures of his dancers show leanings that perfectly fit the romantic aesthetic of his time, a sense of ecstasy, a notion of simplicity, etc. of his own invention completely except for the figures. BUT I don't expect to see my dream fulfilled, unfortunately. So I go every Wednesday to CDS Boston, and enjoy myself thoroughly without weeping over it. And so, I think, should you! Pax! Hope my disagreeing doesn't upset you. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:53:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:56:13 -0800 (PST) From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Knives and forks To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone tell me how the dance Knives and Forks goes? Our musicians are asking to play it! Emma Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112 phone (801) 585-9425, fax (801) 581-4668 "time is fun when you're having flies" - Kermit the Frog ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:01:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Knives and forks To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR0L8XEIDE94NY7N-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Emma Rushton asked: Can anyone tell me how the dance Knives and Forks goes? Our musicians are asking to play it! Knives and Forks is in Neal, as edited by Jackson and Fogg. Published 1726. I don't have that here, but from memory: Longways duple minor, proper. A1: 1s cast off, go below 2s (who wait and lead up); back to back. A2: 1s cast off, go above 2s (who wait and lead down); back to back. B1: Facing out, take inside hands with neighbor and lead out (one bar, but it's 3/2 so that's a longer time than you think), lead back (one bar), cross over with partner (one bar) and make a loop to the right. B2: First man and second woman cross (people, not places); others cross, all turn partners two hands once round. Nice dance, and a pretty tune. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:12:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:40:53 -0500 From: marthacd-AT- juno.com (Martha C Davey) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Knives and forks To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971210.204055.18526.2.marthacd-AT- juno.com> References: <01IR0L8XEIDE94NY7N-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing writes: >Emma Rushton asked: > > Can anyone tell me how the dance Knives and Forks goes? Our >musicians are > asking to play it! > >Knives and Forks is in Neal, as edited by Jackson and Fogg. Published >1726. >I don't have that here, but from memory: > >Longways duple minor, proper. > >A1: 1s cast off, go below 2s (who wait and lead up); back to back. >A2: 1s cast off, go above 2s (who wait and lead down); back to back. > >B1: Facing out, take inside hands with neighbor and lead out (one bar, >but > it's 3/2 so that's a longer time than you think), lead back (one >bar), > cross over with partner (one bar) and make a loop to the right. > >B2: First man and second woman cross (people, not places); others >cross, > all turn partners two hands once round. > > >Nice dance, and a pretty tune. > >-- Alan Emma- I also suggest that after the partners cross the second corner people make a wider loop while waiting for the first corners to cross, and the first corner people make a wider loop after they cross before turning each other so that no one stops moving during the entire B parts. Martha Davey Temporary Phone # (941)792-9323 Probably Back in NY by the Winter Solstice (718)278-4389 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:36:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:37:32 -0500 From: Erna-Lynne Bogue Subject: Philadelphia Ball (long) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <348F6E06.33FC-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <19971209.191845.4358.2.marthacd-AT- juno.com> I also had an amazingly wonderful time at the Philly Ball. Like Eric, when I first entered the hall, I thought "oh no! an airplane hangar!" The dance area defined by the decorations was in fact much larger than the Great Hall at Bryn Mawr. I truly enjoyed Irish Lamentation for the first time in my life: I could truly surge forward with my partner for 5 1/2 steps, turn out, swoop down the outside with the assistance of my neighbor, surge back for 5 1/2 steps and swoop again. I have *never* enjoyed that much movement in a dance. (Yes, I had a delightful partner too). I also noticed the relative absence of jabbering from the dance floor. I know I talked less. Somehow, the little lights and the big space, both around me and above me, made me want to *just DANCE* and do my social talking elsewhere. The floor was hard. I've had foot problems for some months now and have in fact done very little dancing in anticipation of this weekend. I had to sit out a few dances -- but the rest were well worth it. There were many special moments, musically and in other ways. One of the don't-expect-to-see-this-again was to dance the American Husband in just one circle of couples, with plenty of space all around, and to have everyone seem to know where to go in the Shetland Hey...and we could hear the music. For those of you who wonder if it's really worthwhile to climb in the car and drive 650 miles for a dance event, the answer is: yes, if they are like this one. -------------------------------- Erna-Lynne Bogue / Ypsilanti MI -------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:11:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:12:00 -0800 (PST) From: Larkin Irfona Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: An Enchanted Place To: ECD Message-ID: <34902D14-AT- its.nlc-bnc.ca> Can anyone tell me if Charles Bolton's publication "All Alive" is available anywhere? It doesn't seem to be listed with CDSS. I would like to learn A. Heywood's dance, it sounds like fun. Irfona Larkin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:42:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:44:59 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An Enchanted Place To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712120244.VAA24668-AT- mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:12 AM 12/11/97 -0800, Irfona Larkin wrote: > >Can anyone tell me if Charles Bolton's publication "All Alive" is available >anywhere? It doesn't seem to be listed with CDSS. I would like to learn A. >Heywood's dance, it sounds like fun. >Irfona Larkin > Irfona, hi! My guess is that you'd have to apply directly to Charles for a copy. When I met him in Lichfield this summer, I arranged to get additional copies of the "All Alive" cassette from him. He's an extremely helpful and kind person, and I think you'll enjoy corresponding with him. Write to: Charles Bolton 20 The Woodlands Broom Biggleswade Bedfordshire SG18 9NH ENGLAND Happy dancing! Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:14:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:17:29 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An Enchanted Place To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Irfona, While "All Alive" by Charles Bolton may be hard to find, the dance "An Enchanted Place" by Antony Heywood was reprinted in CDSS News #115 (Nov/Dec 1993), p. 6, as an editorial appendage to a letter from Mr. Heywood in response to a previous letter from David Millstone requesting information about dances written to O'Carolan tunes. Because it is printed with the letters and not listed in the contents as a dance, I searched for some time after hearing that it had been published there. Regards, Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:51:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:54:03 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The essence of the original Red House instructions, paraphrased from Jackson & Fogg, 1990, quoting Neal, 1726: Red house each strain twice 1's cast off to 2nd place; back to back: 2's the same in their own places: 1st man cast off and go around 2's, followed by his partner back to their original places: 1st woman the same, followed by her partner to places: 1st man hey with the 2's: 1st woman hey with the 2's; 1's cast into 2nd place. While the instructions don't say where the hey with the 1st man or the 1st woman with the 2nd couple are to take place, my own interpretation would be to have a hey across the set; if it had said "2nd woman hey with the two men" instead of "1st man hey with the 2nd couple" I would have interpreted it on the side. But that's my own take of the wording, not a scholarly one. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:05:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:08:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Forward from Paul Ross on Knives and Forks To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR6H8DPVSI94ZPQ5-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII [Paul sent this to me and to Emma, and I thought it a valuable contribution and suggested posting it to the list, which I'm doing with Paul's permission. All the rest of this message is from Paul.] Hello, Emma and Alan, this is Paul Ross (CD*NY teacher/caller). May I make a slight refinement of the instructions for Knives and Forks? Let me count out the bars for you (yes, as Alan said, the meter is 3/2): A1 1-4 1C cast to 2 place (2's moving up), 1C only back-to-back A2 1-4 1C cast up to 1 pl (2's moving down), 1C only bk-to-bk B1 1 All lead same-sex neighbor away 2 All turn toward neighbor to face partner 3-4 All cross over with partner by right and loop right B2 1 2 corner positions (1M and 2W) change by right 2 1 corner positions (2M and 1W) change by right 3-4 Partners turn 2 hands 1x From the point of view of dancing this well, the challenge in part A is for the 2 couple to *make something* of the lead up/lead down role. For the 1's, it's a beautiful, flowing movement, especially if the cast is a "cast, goodby" in which partners glance at each other and even take a step toward each other before casting. In part B, the challenge is to keep dancing in the B2 portion. So while 1M / 2W are changing, the other corners should use up the music by elongating their loop to the right after the cross over. Similarly, while 2M / 1W change by right, the other corners dance beyond the line and then loop right back to line to use up the extra bar before the two-hand turn with partner. For the 1C of course, the final two-hand turn leads right into the cast at the beginning of the next tour. =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:08:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:10:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Arcata "contra" - after action report To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IR6I0OFLAM94ZPQ5-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, *that* was interesting. I think the event can be termed a qualified success. (A brief recap: An old friend of mine from Los Angeles recently became a member of the committee that programs the monthly contra dance in Arcata, a small city on the North Coast of California. I got hired to call an English dance program and an afternoon workshop on English dances with contra figures to, as I thought, an audience of reasonably-sophisticated contra dancers, and have over the last couple of months pestered the list for advice on program, on dealing with musicians who've done little English, and related topics. The musicians wanted to rehearse any tunes they were going to have to play; sightreading was not an option, so the program needed to be made up weeks in advance, including some backup tunes.) Abut 14 people showed up for the afternoon workshop. Some were reasonably experienced contra dancers, some (as I found out later) were international folk dancers who had come to check out English dancing, for whom the "contra figures" theme wasn't particularly helpful. One couple had an appointment and had to leave early; the rest stayed through. I'd given the band a list of fourteen tunes to have ready, which I hadn't realized would involve the bandleader copying out each tune by hand three times (since only three of the four members were at the workshop) or four times for the evening dances. We did: Levi Jackson Rag (for six, which breaks the mixer part but let everybody dance. Went reasonably well, although I had to keep calling all through six reps.) Young Widow (which seemed to go okay in walk through, even walking it through twice to show the triple-minor progression, but broke down repeatedly. I'd had it in mind to show differences in contra and English style - skipping, etc, but had to give up on doing it both ways because we couldn't do it either way. I had mistakenly assumed an an audience that already knew at least duple minor progression; enough IFD people didn't know it at all that they simply didn't understand which way they were supposed to go. Oops.) The Bonny Breast Knot (Somerset and Devon version) Three couple sets, simple cloverleaf, balancing, contra corners, down the middle and back to the bottom, everybody swing. This went fine, once I'd walked everybody through contra corners (that is, putting each couple in middle place and having them do it before actually dealing with it in the dance.) This worked pretty well, but there was a tremendous tendency to rush the music (which is quite relaxed), despite counting, etc. It only stayed on time [mostly] when I called each little piece. If I Had Maggie in the Wood (Sicilian circle mixer, Colin Hume.) This one worked, but people didn't really retain the figures and I had to keep calling through ten rounds. Even so, there was a tendency to be early or late. This a dance with very clear timing; I'd think you'd have to disregard the music altogether to be early. Duke of Kent's Waltz: Quick teach, worked fine. (Thanks, whoever suggested that. I didn't give a gloss on why all those pieces were contra figures (star, allemande, etc; I had divined by then that hardly anybody cared about it being a contra figures workshop.) I was able to stop calling after five rounds, which was good, since I was dancing in the set to get one of the organizers in. Smithy Hill: This worked pretty well, but the surprising thing to me was that the problems were in the hey for four, which I was still thinking people should know how to do. With a free waltz, that used up the two hours of the workshop. The music had been just fine, and I'd established good communication with the band. The dancers seemed pretty happy, to my moderate surprise; I would not myself have been so happy if I'd struggled as much as some of them had. Off to an early dinner with my buddy, arriving back at the hall about 7:30, a half-hour ahead of the start. (Also twenty minutes ahead of the band, who were still futzing with sound at 8:05; we got started at about 8:15.) At 8:15 there were about twenty dancers in the hall, so I started doing surgery on the planned program, and went with Come, Let's Be Merry instead of Margaret's Waltz. Demonstrated all the bits, defined and demonstrated casting off, worked on making the ring round connect and only turn halfway (which turned out to be a problem; the set that initially didn't pull in on the arms at all and turned only 1/3 got the idea too enthusiastically and kept overshooting dramatically.) Several couples didn't respond to my guidance about timing on the pairs of casts down, and arrived at the bottom two or three measures early -- at which point they'd start to waltz up the middle without waiting for the phrase, or with any apparent sense that there _was_ a phrase. So I called each little piece, six times through. Second, per initial plan, was The Female Saylor. More people had showed up, so I had two lines of about eleven couples each. This is a wonderful dance I love dearly, fits well with the Christmas theme, and has the relentless motion of some modern contras, but it is not a good idea to do this with a group that isn't altogether clear that you don't change from active to inactive after every round of a dance, and of which only two-thirds could correctly execute a half-figure 8 by the end of the dance, despite description and demonstration. (And one guy, who perhaps had a hearing problem or was perhaps not gifted with figures or perhaps just overwhelmed, would respond to calls of "half-figure 8" with random motion ending some different weird place each time. Much running up and down the line and fixing things, which is hard when you have to keep calling every move even on the twelfth round of the dance. (A pair of young women had showed up who had no problems with the figures, but who were skipping madly through the whole thing. I hardly knew what to say, so I didn't address this; they were among the few who were in the right place at the right time.) The dance never got up to the recommended tempo. When this was done, I re-evaluated my position. Under other circumstances, I would have thrown out my entire program and retreated to be as simple as possible. On a scale of 1 to 10, the difficulty of my program varied from 2 to 6; I really needed a range from 1 to 3. But I needed to work out of the tunes already selected; this band couldn't just turn to the right page in Barnes and play something they'd never seen before. So, Margaret's Waltz, which went quite well, and I was able to shut up after about four rounds. Bonny Breast Knot again. I had to dance to fill a set, and couldn't watch all seven sets; apparently one fell apart in contra corners and couldn't get sorted out again. I called a break, and the band set up to sing. (I had hoped to do the break, let people eat, drink, use the bathroom, and have the band call the dancers back in by singing, but when they asked nicely to sing now, I let them. A nice rendition of the Cutty Wren (which I hate, but they did it well) and a cool wassailing song from the Orkney Islands I hadn't heard before. So people sat, then straggled out for refreshments, and the whole thing dragged out to twenty-five minutes. I talked to some of the dancers, which is when I found out how quite a lot of them were IFD people who never or rarely contra dance. I'd known something was different from my expectations; now I knew what. I started the second section with Roxburgh Castle. It was rather gratifying to say "We're going to learn a step -- this involves standing up" and have people say "Cool!" The whole room was ranting within five minutes, and there's so little to the dance that only five minutes later we were doing it. It seemed to me to be the hit of the evening, and I was able to run it longer than I'd ever dare to do it in Palo Alto or San Jose, with people really enjoying it. (The only difficulty was that some people couldn't get the idea that they were supposed to polka around the same couple that they'd just done the rest of the dance with, and would insist on going around the next, which left three polka-ing couples occupying the space of two. But they liked it.) With everyone winded, I went for "Irish Lamentation." This was reasonably successful, although the guy who was doing something random every time I said "half figure 8" was now doing something random every time I said "cross" or "cast" as well. Luckily, it's slow enough that you can recover from almost anything. (The band went with a tempo faster than standard, but still very slow; I decided not to lower it any further, as it _is_ a challenge that the dancers didn't really need.) Finally, "Trip to Paris." Despite my counting out and singing the tune for the trip, people still finished it at random times, often too early, and some still couldn't get the path. (I swear it wasn't me; I've taught this particular dance to first-time or beginner groups many times without so many problems.) But they loved it anyway. Quite a few people, including those who'd struggled so conspicuously, came up after the last waltz to thank me and say what a good time they'd had, with every evidence of sincerity. One of the organizers had been tremendously taken with a couple of the dances and said he'd try to see that they got taught here even in my absence, so I presented him with my dance notes, the ones that had actually been danced marked off in order. (I don't use index cards; I keep dance descriptions in separate text files on the computer, and combine them in portmanteau files for evenings, then print multiple copies since I have a bad habit of putting them down when I need to demonstrate something and then not being able to find them again.) I presented the band leader with a copy of Barnes to keep. The organizers (not just my buddy) said that they'd like to get me back, preferably before next December, and everyone seemed to feel that it was quite a success. I was unhappy that my program had been such a struggle, but resolved to make one that was a better match to the group next time. On the way to my friend's house, she told me for the first time that this group is chronically unable to keep to the phrase of the music in contra dancing,that contra corners baffles them, and that her favorite dance, Rory O' More, never really works there without a struggle. I wish I'd known that before. If I indeed get hired back, with the same band, I'll worry much less about the music and concentrate on an _extremely_ accessible set of dances, maybe including a little more footwork. (Another rant, Nottingham Swing, La Russe Quadrille, as well as more historical dances.) All in all, a qualified success. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:00:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:03:49 -0800 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Subject: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD List Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3496B475.5B80-AT- erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712152352.SAA06361-AT- mail1.panix.com> While listening to a terrific CD of Welsh folk songs this weekend with an international folk (and Scottish) dancer, it suddenly occurred to us that neither of us had ever even heard of Welsh country dancing. Local inquiry produced the following: > We do do one Welsh dance: it's called Oswestry Square. [Martha Davey] > Welsh folk-dancing definitely exists: Pat Shaw was active in the > Welsh Folk Dance Society [indeed, his Waterfall Waltz--tune Caerdroea-- > "won the prize at the National Eisteddfod (Port Talbot 1966) in the > competition for the "Composition of a Twmpath Dance.'"]. The latest > issue of English Dance & Song contains an article that mentions a Welsh > team from Swansea dancing at a huge international festival in Europe. [Sharon Green] And Paul Ross reported that he has an entire record of Welsh country dances. Sharon suggested putting this inquiry out to the ECD List, so: Can anyone elucidate why there seems to be such a large body of English, Scottish and Irish folk dances, yet so few Welsh dances? Is this in fact true, or are there lots of them, and are they just jealously guarded, or not as well researched, or not done much in the States, or otherwise not disseminated widely? No doubt I'll discover that, at least in part, the answer is that I'm more ignorant than I realized, but I see that more and more anyway, and I expect that after the replies are in I'll be wiser, at least in this area. Oh, yes -- anyone know where the hotbed of twmpath dancing is in the Eastern U.S.? Mike O'Connor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:17:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:24:18 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712161707.MAA29559-AT- ns.kreative.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > The essence of the original Red House instructions, paraphrased from > Jackson & Fogg, 1990, quoting Neal, 1726: > > Red house each strain twice > > 1's cast off to 2nd place; back to back: > 2's the same in their own places: > 1st man cast off and go around 2's, followed by his partner back > to their original places: > 1st woman the same, followed by her partner to places: > 1st man hey with the 2's: > 1st woman hey with the 2's; 1's cast into 2nd place. It took me longer than Eric to get back from the Philly ball. After hitting all 3 Bare Necessity dances that weekend, I headed up to the fields of frost and snow in northern New Hampshire for a week of cross-country skiing and other delights. So, I won't apologize for joining this thread so late, but I am happy to answer the earlier request for the full version of Red House from Playford. The _New Series_ ECD version of Red-House is from the 17th edition of the _Dancing Master_. This version differs from the one given above from Neal. As Marjorie McLaughlin noted, "Red-House" was published, almost identically in all editions of the Dancing Master_ from the 9th (1695, Henry Playford) through the 18th (1728, John Young). Walsh also published an identical version in both versions of his _Compleat Country Dancing-Master_ (1718 and 1731). (For trivia nuts, Playford/Young and _New Series_ hyphenate "Red-House," but Walsh spelled it out as 2 separate words.) The tune is essentially the same tune throughout Neal, Playford/Young and Walsh, but variations between editions are common. Eric paraphrased Neal accurately, but I'll play it safe and quote the text exactly. The following is "Red-House" from the 10th edition of the_Dancing Master_: The I. cu. meet and set and cast off into the 2. cu. place_. Then meet and set again, and cast off into their own places_: The I. man cast off below the 2. man, and go above the 2. wo. into the 2. man's place, his wo. following him at the same time_. Then the 2. wo. cast up above the I. wo. and go below the I. man into her own place, the I. man [sic, probably s/b "2. man"] following her at the same time_: Then the I. cu. and 2. man go the Hey till they come into their own places_. Then the I. cu. and 2. wo. go the Hey on the other side, and so cast off into the 2nd cu. place_: Note that the heys are definitely on the sides of the set. The chase is similar to those in the modern ECD as described by Sharon. The back to backs in the A's of the Neal version are lacking. (Although that might be a pleasing reconstruction--e.g., set forward to partner, cast and back to back. All that again, casting up to places.) The probably mistake exists in all editions and was not corrected by Walsh. P.S.: I've always been amused by Dan Seigel's description of Red House. He says the dance has 3 parts: "First the meeting, then the chase and then into the hey." ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:19:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:23:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Davis Subject: Re: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:03:49 -0800 "Michael J. O'Connor" wrote: > Can anyone elucidate why there seems to be such a large body of > English, Scottish and Irish folk dances, yet so few Welsh dances? > I believe that the Welsh dances were suppressed by us nice English when we took over as they were regarded as an expression of nationalism. So they died out a lot and there's only recently been interest in researching and reviving them. John Baker is a name that springs to mind, but I don't have a contact for him Paul ---------------------- Paul Davis Paul.davis-AT- oucs.ox.ac.uk Tel 01865-283414 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:39:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:17:04 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199712162017_MC2-2C37-9589-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Welsh country dancing" was taught at Pinewoods some years ago-- during ESS Week, I believe-- by Ron Wallace, of the Left Coast. The quotation marks are there because virtually all the material was indeed virtual-- R= on indicated the dances were invented in the absence of a continuing traditi= on much as Scottish country dances had been. And yes, Pat Shaw had a hand i= n it. As a musician for the class, I recall the published music for the dances having the crafted look and sound of Sharp's piano arrangements. Perhaps Ron can shed more light on this, if someone can attach him to our= forum... Gene Murrow EC Dancer and Musician and husband of the former Susan Roberts, a Welsh name if ever there was one. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:08:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:11:24 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Ramsay in St Louis A reaction to: > Can anyone elucidate why there seems to be such a large body of > English, Scottish and Irish folk dances, yet so few Welsh dances? I have the impression that many Scottish country dance forms died when the Royal Scottish society captured the field and standardized "acceptable form." Few dances seem to have survived in a robust folk form. In particular, it would seem to me that "set running" from eastern Kentucky and elsewhere in Appalachia would have a related dance in Scotland since so many of the Appalachian settlers were of Scottish origin. Well, yes, they were Scotch- Irish, and Irish traditional dance does seem to have a robust (lively, changeable, adaptive) character. Perhaps set running is entirely Irish. In Denmark the Danish Folk Dance Federation stamped out much indigenous dance by limiting their interest to 1750-1850. Any older dances were ignored and even suppressed. But, last year I did find a Dane who promised to send me a video of one of the old dances from one of the remote islands that he said was the equivalent of set running. A find like this would be evidence of a Nordic circle dance in duple-minor form. Since much Scottish culture is Nordic, one could have reason to be on the lookout for that dance form in Scotland. Folk dances can be victim of inter-ethnic power struggles, but they have also fallen victim to intra-ethnic elitism. I'm glad that country dancing in America seems to be robust. CDSS encourages the many adapting forms of traditional dance which meet the social needs of common folk. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:05:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:08:06 -0400 From: "Howard A. Markham" Subject: Re: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <3497CEB5.DC2AEA9F-AT- mitre.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199712152352.SAA06361-AT- mail1.panix.com> <3496B475.5B80-AT- erols.com> Just to throw out another name, Sean (sp? a woman) Fricke of Newark, Delaware, who is known to Scottish dancers in the Philadelphia area and English dancers in Dover and probably Philadelphia, teaches Welsh dancing. -- Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:21:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:26:12 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Welsh dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Why so few Welsh dances seem to be around: the explanation I recall hearing is not a national repression issue (e.g. those rude English), but church-related: the churches in Wales (Methodist? which Protestant group dominated outside the cities in Wales?) in the 19th century were particularly strict, and particularly effective at repressing social dancing. That in fact probably applies to many countries. (I wonder if group singing became a replacement for social dancing: just a thought.) Remember that joke about southern Baptists and why they won't make love standing up. (Punch line = too much like dancing.) Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:05:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:07:40 -0500 (EST) From: RSCDS SD Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Welsh/Scottish Country Dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <642c460b.3497f8ce-AT- aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-16 22:46:25 EST, you write: > indicated the dances were invented in the absence of a continuing tradition > much as Scottish country dances had been. I am a little bewildered by this comment. My knowledge of Welsh dancing is almost non-existent, but the idea that Scottish Country dancing lacks a "continuing tradition" is far from accurate. Though clearly adopted from the style of English country dancing as it existed in the late 17th century, Scottish dancing developed its own characteristics, whether in music or figures, soon after. By the mid 18th century dances were being devised and published in Scotland (as opposed to books of dances being imported from London), and by the mid 19th century it can claim to be a distinct variant of country dancing. Perhaps I misunderstood the comment but I do think Scottish dancing has had a continuing tradition since the first country dances appeared there in about 1704. further to another posting on this thread: >I have the impression that many Scottish country dance forms died when the >Royal Scottish society captured the field and standardized "acceptable form." >Few dances seem to have survived in a robust folk form. While it is fair to say that the RSCDS has created a standardized, 20th century form of Scottish Country dancing, I think it is also important to note that it is only one style which continues to flourish. Outside of Scotland there are few alternatives to the RSCDS form, but in Britain Ceilidh dancing, and regional "robust folk forms" certainly exist. In fact, they are enjoying so much popularity that the RSCDS is giving a serious look to its image. Many of us have been taking a good long look at the history and development of country dancing in Scotland and finding styles, ideas, and dances that, while perhaps not encouraged by the Society, have not been lost. Marjorie McLaughlin RSCDSSD-AT- aol.com (Despite the email address, I am not a representative of, nor spokesman for, the RSCDS). ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:52:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:56:24 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Welsh dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Stephen D Corrsin wrote: > Why so few Welsh dances seem to be around: the explanation I recall > hearing is not a national repression issue (e.g. those rude English), but > church-related: the churches in Wales (Methodist? which Protestant group > dominated outside the cities in Wales?) in the 19th century were > particularly strict, and particularly effective at repressing social > dancing. > > That in fact probably applies to many countries. That reminds me of hearing a story on the radio about a dancer/teacher (unfortunately, I don't remember her name) from the French culture of the P.E.I./New Brunswick region a few years back -- as I recall, she described growing up at a time when the Roman Catholic Church in her area repressed the regional folk dancing very severely, but it apparently was still practiced, particularly by the older folks, in their kitchens & parlours, and she decided at some point in her life to go against the dictates of the church and attempt to resurrect as much of this tradition as she could. Similarly, one of our local dancers, who grew up in an area of Minnesota (I believe) settled primarily by Scandinavians, told of dancing being strongly discouraged by their church (Lutheran, I expect), but their pastor was a young fellow who was *very* fond of dancing -- so he organized "singing" regularly on Sunday evening, and she learned to do these dances there... Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:15:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:16:57 -0500 (EST) From: Capersall Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <55d84890.3498171b-AT- aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone mentioned (does anyone care?) that the three parts of the tune can be played at the same time (in other words, it's a round)? Art Munisteri ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:34:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:37:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Capersall wrote: > Has anyone mentioned (does anyone care?) that the three parts of the tune can > be played at the same time (in other words, it's a round)? So it's really "Round House"? Peace. Paul "Head for the round house, Nellie; he can't corner you there" (- Pogo) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:02:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:06:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IRA2CQ168294M0ON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII John Ramsay wrote: [snips of very interesting stuff on folk dance supporters sometimes wiping out indigenous dance] >I'm glad that country dancing in America seems to be robust. CDSS encourages >the many adapting forms of traditional dance which meet the social needs of >common folk. I've read complaints (from a madman named Chris Brady, who in some cases sounds like he has a point) that EFDSS, by standardizing steps, has nearly destroyed the rural English dance traditions, especially where step dancing intersects with country dance. (At one point he claimed that he knew of a case where people stopped doing their dance the way they had always done it and started doing it the way it was in CDM because the book must be right.) I've also read complaints (on rec.folk-dancing, primarily) that contra dancing has tended to wipe out indigenous country dance. That is, it gets done, promoted, and becomes popular even in areas with strong local traditions of squares or, as in Appalachia, big circle dances. Nancy Mamlin writes that she always make a point of teaching Appalachian forms in Appalachia and emphasizing that _they_ are the local heritage. (I'm not suggesting that this is CDSS's fault, and I don't know what CDSS could do about it in any case. CDSS certainly doesn't say "you shall only do dance forms we have approved, and only dances that are found in The Book" and indeed my limited exposure to squares from a Midwest caller or big circle dances have been at (BACDS, a CDSS affiliate) dance camps. A dance series is quintessentially a grassroots effort; if there are organizers in the town with the energy and interest to build a contra/square/IFD/vintage/English/Balkan dance it may happen, and otherwise it won't.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:04:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:09:12 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712172109.QAA15346-AT- staff1.cso.uiuc.edu> Alan Winston writes: >been at (BACDS, a CDSS affiliate) dance camps. A dance series is >quintessentially a grassroots effort; if there are organizers in the town with >the energy and interest to build a contra/square/IFD/vintage/English/Balkan >dance it may happen, and otherwise it won't.) In our area, Champaign-Urbana, IL, we have 3 groups, the Urbana Country Dancers (contra), the Central Illinois English Country Dancers (English) and the Illini Folk Dance Society (interational). There is some overlap in membership and generally we are able to avoid conflicting with each others events. However there has been little direct interaction between the groups. This past summer we held an afternoon of English and international dances followed by a contra dance in the evening. This came about partly because our ECD band (the Flatland Consort) has several members who also play in the local Russian Folk Orchestra. They thought it might be fun to play Russian tunes for Russian dances on Russian instruments. So we had an afternoon of English and Russian dances with American dances in the evening. Attendance wasn't overwhelming for this workshop, but we felt it was a success anyway. Partially as a result of that experience we held what we titled A Traditional Dance Sampler evening this past October. This was an evening of dance sponsored jointly by all 3 groups. Thus we did American, English and international dances, to live music. This was a chance for each group to show dancers from the other groups what they did and let them try the dances out. It also attracted some non-dancers who had a chance to sample a variety of dance forms and decide which ones they might be interested in. This was a very successfull evening and has improved the interaction between the groups. We hope to hold more of these and make this a regular event. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier |Q: How many angels can dance on the | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | head of a pin? | | Flight Simulation Lab |A: It depends on what dance you call. | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Home page URL: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~j-sivier | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:31:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:35:38 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: [snip] > I've read complaints (from a madman named Chris Brady, who in some cases sounds > like he has a point) that EFDSS, by standardizing steps, has nearly destroyed > the rural English dance traditions, especially where step dancing intersects > with country dance. (At one point he claimed that he knew of a case where > people stopped doing their dance the way they had always done it and started > doing it the way it was in CDM because the book must be right.) > > I've also read complaints (on rec.folk-dancing, primarily) that contra dancing > has tended to wipe out indigenous country dance. That is, it gets done, > promoted, and becomes popular even in areas with strong local traditions of > squares or, as in Appalachia, big circle dances. Nancy Mamlin writes that she > always make a point of teaching Appalachian forms in Appalachia and emphasizing > that _they_ are the local heritage. However accomplished a dance researcher/historian/collector/teacher is, whenever the dance traditions of a particular place get funneled through one person, there is a filtering process that goes on, both deliberately and unconsciously. It simply cannot be otherwise. So any dance book, and any dance teacher, has to make condensations, generalizations, and selections at some level; and even if he or she is able to get to know regional styles and details well enough to do justice to their dances and variants, their pupils experience it differently and therefore learn something different, and that is what they take away with them. Things increase in value as they become scarce, and decrease when they become common. To preserve all of the entertainment of today, including the couch-potato/tv show combination that has had a significant role in displacing country dancing from the mainstream in our own culture, would, I think, be a great waste of effort, even though there are certainly gems that are discarded along with the trash -- the mummer's play we did last night, for example, was a crazy mix of contemporary and traditional elements, was great fun, and will be preserved only in the memories of those involved, and tovarying degrees in each. We simply can't preserve everything that was done everywhere and still retain a vibrant, stimulating folk culture -- but without question, the preservation of selected parts of our past and the traditions that it carried on contributes as much to the stimulus as the freedom to bring in new elements representing facets of contemporary life. But we all have to choose which things to sample as we go through our lives, and to what degree we touch these things. To excel in one invariably means to have less time for others, and to sample all means to achieve only modest achievement in most. So individually we experience this filtering, too. It cannot be otherwise. We like to be non-judgemental about the relative merits and virtues of folk traditions and cultural arts, among other things, and yet we are forced to make choices and decisions supporting them or otherwise affecting them, and wise decisions call for judgement. These judgements aren't about whether the things are good or bad so much as about whether we want to do them; but it is easy to slip over to the idea that to preserve certain things in itself is good, to limit them to a single form is bad, etc. I'm reminded of a segment of a radio program I heard as I was driving to the recent Philly ball -- a segment of "All Things Considered" on PBS had an interview with a marriage counselor from a clinic at a university in Washington state, who had studied marriages that worked to find out why. One thing he observed was that in establishing successful long-term relationships, we are taking on problems that we will not solve, and that have no solution within that relationship. We have a similar situation here, it seems to me, in that there is no solution which is completely satisfactory to all country dancers. How well we can deal with that perhaps has something to do with how successful our relation with country dance is; but what country dance is, is not defined by us individually, or by the history and traditions exclusively, but by us collectively along with the traditions that we are able somehow to embrace. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor and not an official historian for any form of country dance (;-) "In Ann Arbor, do they do hands-across stars or wrist-grip stars?" "Yes" (... and thumbs-up stars, and lump-in-the-middle stars, and...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:07:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:11:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IRBIQLHCXI94M0ON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Eric -- That was a very thoughtful and well-written post. If I did a "Best of ECD" that would be on it. You might consider a variant of this as a letter or article for CDSS News. Overall, I agree with you emphatically. There's too much material for everyone to do everything well, or indeed at all, and certainly too much for teachers to learn and teach, and even if they did, students would take away different things. A couple of side points: Indeed, we can't preserve everything, or at least can't revive everything. (I think preserving everything, at least in notes, may be a reasonable (if unattainable) goal for the folklorist or ethnomusicologist; if it isn't preserved, it can't be revived later if we do want it. This may be a different issue from whether it's entirely a good thing for imported 'revival' forms to displace indigenous traditional forms (eg, contra replacing Big Circle dances in Appalachia.) As I indicated elsewhere (though possibly somewhat unclearly), we can only do what we have the energy and enthusiasm for. I don't think the person who has the passion to start an International Folk Dance series in, say, Devon, has a moral obligation to do dances collected in Devon instead. If the local dances are already marginal enough that they aren't automatically getting done at weddings and Christmas parties -- and, speaking entirely without knowledge, I'd imagine that 'indigenous' country dance in Devon is dead as a doornail today -- then their revival and preservation require people who are passionate about doing that, and if there are no such people, then it won't happen. The responsibility doesn't fall on the shoulders of the people who want to do IFD, or contras, or club squares, or EFDS&S English. I do think that the club square people, or the EFDS&S English, or whoever, ought not to say that people who are doing indigenous traditional forms are wrong, or not "real" square dancers. (I have heard reliable reports of the latter, and only what I mentioned earlier about the former.) This is all easy enough for me to say as a native of California, which seems to be entirely free of indigenous country dance. (As a side note to that, I get confused as soon as I start talking about 'indigenous' country dance. [Not that that stops me.] Indigenous country dance is ballroom dance that has escaped into the wild and evolved independently. I may perhaps make an exception for Big Circle dances. Sharp and Karpeles make a - to me, who is not a scholar - wholly unconvincing argument that they represent a primal form of country dance from which ballroom versions with courtesy figures (setting, honoring, etc) are a gentrified and thus degenerate form; further, that their figures derive directly from pagan ritual. (The idea that getting into a basket by having the women go under the men's arms and then the men going under the women's arms is directly linked to well-worship is bad enough, but I have enormous difficulty with the idea that the 'Bird in a Cage' figure is a recollection of ritual sacrifice.)) Part of the value of the contemporary mummers' play -- I mean, the kind that uses the known format of the mummers' play as a peg for contemporary jokes -- is in its ephemeral nature. If you videotaped that play, and the jokes were topical enough, nobody would understand them in 10 years -- just like the succesful skit at a camp or ale that makes reference to events and personalities from the camp, and meaningless outside it. It's part of what makes the experience special and unique to the people having it. [End of file] -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:01:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:00:39 -0500 From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971218170039.0069d7a8-AT- just.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A recent discussion about copyrights, etc., led me to pass this info on to the list. Appearing below is a summary of topics from Brad Templeton's "10 Big Myths about copyright explained", which appears at http://www.clarinet.com/brad/copymyths.html. This will be old news to some. I've seen this info before but still found it to be interesting and worthwhile. Brad's article has some great links, too, e.g., leading to the U.S. copyright act. 1) "If it doesn't have a copyright notice, it's not copyrighted." 2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation." 3) "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain." 4) "My posting was just fair use!" 5) "If you don't defend your copyright you lose it." 6) "If I make up my own stories, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me." 7) "They can't get me, defendants in court have powerful rights!" 8) "Oh, so copyright violation isn't a crime or anything?" 9) "It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising." 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it." 11)"So I can't ever reproduce anything?" Myth #11 (I didn't want to change the now-famous title of this article) ------ Best regards, -- Roger __ _ _________________ _ _______________________________________________ /__) _,___, _ _ /_) Contra dancing fanatic, English country / \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado. Superfluous disclaimer: _/_ Email: my opinions are mine. Kindly direct non- {AT=-AT- } (/ IDo AT exist.com constructive comments to /dev/null. ___________________________________________________________________________ \ NEW Email address: IDo AT exist.com {AT = -AT- } / \____________________________________________/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:47:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:50:16 -0500 From: Brad Foster Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Welsh Country Dancing -- ?? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971218225016.006a96bc-AT- crocker.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mavis Williams taught Welsh step and country dances at English Week twelve years ago. Her last known address for us was: 16 Beaconsfield Way, Sketty, Swansen, Wals. Brad ------------------------------------------------------------------- Brad Foster Country Dance and Song Society Executive and Artistic Director New Address: 132 Main, PO Box 338 brad.foster-AT- cdss.org; office-AT- cdss.org Haydenville MA 01039-0338 http://www.cdss.org/ 413-268-7426; Fax: 413-268-7471 ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:38:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Experimental web archive of ECD list To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IRBSWKR58294M0ON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Folks -- I've been playing around with a program that serves mail archives, and set up a very basic web page that will give you access to it. Try http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/~winston/ecd.html and click on the archive link. There are a number of, um, infelicities with this connection. First, it will try to display 2500 subject lines on your screen. I suggest you use the "Search" capability to restrict the search to something reasonable. Second, it's not terrifically fast. (It has to open the archive and reread all the subject lines every time you go from one message to the next. This is the way the web is, and it's not really fixable, although making the archives smaller will help.) Right now all the messages there ever were are in one "folder"; if I can figure out the right unit to break them down by, I may divide it up into folders. (The hitch with doing that is that subjects will cross over any arbitrary time division, which means you'll have to look in more than one folder to know you've seen everything on a given topic.) Third, searches only work on subject line, not message bodies, so when a topic diverges, you can't find it. You can't search by author, either. Fourth, all the SMTP mail headers show on your screen, which is ugly. Fifth, a feature of the archive program is that it converts email addresses in the text into mailto: links and web addresses into http: links. The headers (item four) contain all kinds of junk that looks like mail addresses and aren't, so spurious mailto: links are generated. Ignore them. I'll happily accept suggestions for improving this, but ones that require rewriting the (freeware) archive program will take a long time to implement. Please don't pass on the URL outside the list, since it may change or go away soon. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:41:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:48:07 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712190231.VAA16763-AT- ns.kreative.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > A recent discussion about copyrights, etc., led me to pass this info > on to the list. Appearing below is a summary of topics from Brad > Templeton's "10 Big Myths about copyright explained", which appears > at http://www.clarinet.com/brad/copymyths.html. This will be old > news to some. I've seen this info before but still found it to be > interesting and worthwhile. Brad's article has some great links, > too, e.g., leading to the U.S. copyright act. Thanks Roger. I found the links especially useful. In particular, check out http://www.aimnet.com/~carroll/copyright/faq-home.html. It answers several questions we've had about copyright. E.g., a couple years ago, someone asked what the rule was for the number of bars of music from one tune can be incorporated into another new tune. While there does not appear to be a definitive answer in law, one publisher uses a rule of thumb of requiring permission of the copyright holder for works including "examples of more than 4 measures." Another question we've asked ourselves is, "how does copyright applies to country dances?" Clearly the written descriptions are copyrighted. But, is the dance itself? According to the article at the site I reference above, the author's copyright includes the display right "to literary, musical, dramatic and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works." I'm not sure that answers the question. Since country dancing is more of a participatory art than a performance art, is it covered under the "display right?" I'd hate to think we've been violating copyrights by dancing the creations of Colin, Fried, Gary Roodman, Pat Shaw and all the other fine ECD choreographers. But, what really bothers me is the thought that someone might NOT dance them for fear of violating a copyright. Surely, that was not their the choreographer's intent? But then, I doubt that the composers of ECD tunes expected royalties to be paid whenever musicians play the tunes for the dances. Yet, performance of a tune appears to fall squarely under the "display rights." I doubt the one could make a case that this is a "fair use." I'm not sure full and absolute compliance with copyright restrictions is possible, desirable, or even intended. But if not, where do we draw the line? I don't know about the rest of you, but the issue of copyright and "folk" arts leaves me feeling uncomfortable. To keep my employers happy, I need to conclude with a disclaimer: P.S. to Sharon McKinley: In this particular case, I am unable to give your style of disclaimer. Think the above satisfies Federal ethics rules? ;-) ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:57:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:01:43 -0500 From: "Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D." Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971219090143.006adcd0-AT- just.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, Rich, a lurker comes out of the wood work and gets a thread going! At 09:48 PM 12/18/97 +0000, Rich wrote: [pruned] >Another question we've asked ourselves is, "how does copyright >applies to country dances?" Clearly the written descriptions are >copyrighted. But, is the dance itself? According to the article at >the site I reference above, the author's copyright includes the >display right "to literary, musical, dramatic and choreographic >works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works." >I'm not sure that answers the question. Since country dancing is >more of a participatory art than a performance art, is it covered >under the "display right?" > >I'd hate to think we've been violating copyrights by dancing >the creations of Colin, Fried, Gary Roodman, Pat Shaw and all >the other fine ECD choreographers. But, what really bothers me is >the thought that someone might NOT dance them for fear of violating a >copyright. Surely, that was not their the choreographer's intent? Thought provoking questions, these. I am reminded of what happened at Pinewoods this Summer: composers who, for a contribution to CDSS, wrote tunes for folks who bid and won in the charity auction. As I recall, the authors retained copyright privileges. I doubt, though, that their intent was to keep folks from playing their music but to ensure garnering royalties should the tunes be published. Then there's the recent cases of greedy folks going after summer camps to collect royalties on camp songs that seemed to many to be in the public domain because they are so common and familiar. Do churches pay royalties every time a tune is played or a modern hymn is sung? >But then, I doubt that the composers of ECD tunes expected royalties >to be paid whenever musicians play the tunes for the dances. Yet, >performance of a tune appears to fall squarely under the "display >rights." I doubt the one could make a case that this is a "fair >use." >I'm not sure full and absolute compliance with copyright restrictions >is possible, desirable, or even intended. But if not, where do we >draw the line? I don't know about the rest of you, but the issue of >copyright and "folk" arts leaves me feeling uncomfortable. Remember: First, kill all the lawyers! >knowledge of copyright law is limited to a very narrow area. Please >do not infer that I know what I'm talking about.> Again, he says: "First, kill all the lawyers." (Is that phrase protected by copyright :-?) Further, on Wednesday I was discussing with a well known (within the CDSS crowd, at least) indexer that I'd seen copies of Playford's original publications posted on the www and opined that was surely OK as they were so ancient as to be beyond copyright protections. Well, he surprised me by saying that there could be problems because the old texts could be owned by a museum, implying they had some rights to be protected. Personally, I'll worry about all of this when I have to and think of this as an 'academic discussion' for the moment. Maybe we'll hear one of the currently active choreographers and/or composers weigh in on this. -- Roger __ _ _________________ _ _______________________________________________ /__) _,___, _ _ /_) Contra dancing fanatic, English country / \__(_) (_/_(/__/(_ /__). dance aficionado. Superfluous disclaimer: _/_ Email: my opinions are mine. Kindly direct non- {AT=-AT- } (/ IDo AT exist.com constructive comments to /dev/null. ___________________________________________________________________________ \ NEW Email address: IDo AT exist.com {AT = -AT- } / \____________________________________________/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:26:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:28:21 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Thoughts (treatise, diatribe) on Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Rich Galloway wrote: [snip] > But then, I doubt that the composers of ECD tunes expected royalties > to be paid whenever musicians play the tunes for the dances. Yet, > performance of a tune appears to fall squarely under the "display > rights." I doubt the one could make a case that this is a "fair > use." I think one could, at least on a rational basis, if not on one that could satisfy all of the legal hounds rabidly infected with greed and a greatly overblown concept of how much "intellectual value" there is in parts of the whole. Please don't misconstrue what I am saying -- I have no problem with the idea that people should be entitled to protect their intellectual property rights. But what these rights are, or should be, I feel, is something that deserves close examination and possible modification so that the maintenance of them serves the public good with the maximum benefit. The "public good" is a pretty elusive concept, admittedly, and even with an agreement on things that might be weighed in consideration of their contribution to the public good, it is hard to imagine that there would be universal agreement on the weight to be given each factor. Nevertheless, some ideas may be broached. One is that there are public as well as private rights in any society. There is a certain right to certain kinds of knowledge that demand that individual rights be limited to various degrees. In our laws, the freedom of information act, the concepts of freedom of speech and of the press in the bill of rights, and laws defining (or attempting to define) what is and isn't libelous all attempt to define some of the boundaries between public and private rights. Copyright law in Britain, from which our own laws and concepts derive, was established early in the 18th century, I believe under William & Mary. Before that there had been various publishing monopolies granted by the monarchy, but as the power of the monarch decreased and British politics became more democratic, the right to publish was acknowledged, and soon thereafter, as publishing became a profession and a principal source of livelihood for some, certain protections were devised to ensure that authors and publishers efforts to produce books repaid them sufficiently to encourage this to happen. This was as much to ensure a vigorous and stable publishing environment, I expect, as it was to preserve individual rights; the regulation promoted the public interest by its positive influence on the health of the industry, which had a great influence on British society in general by aiding literacy and the general dissemination of knowledge. In British law, and to a certain extent in our own, being largly based on British concepts, the concept of "common law" is used to decide questions not explicitly addressed by written statutes. As I understand it, common law basically embraces traditional concepts and customs as they have been known to be practiced before a need was felt to have written descriptions for all legal concepts. In my mind, the essential concepts of folk tradition place them in the same category as common law, and where copyright law is not explicit or is ambiguous, it seems to me that the ideas and concepts implicit to the folk traditions involved are the most appropriate basis for legal decisions regarding copyrights. It seems unlikely to me that many composers of music and dance for English Country dancing are not aware of the context in which their compositions would be used. The idea of writing a dance is, in addition to the joy it gives the creator to create something satisfying, to give people a new dance to enjoy, and new music to dance to. When one does such an act of composition, one _expects_ this to happen, if one is familiar with the traditions. It is a nice courtesy to acknowledge the source of a composition when it is known, and it is good ethics to make an effort to pass that information along when the dance is done, and to enquire after the source for a dance or tune which isn't identified to give credit where possible. But it isn't a folk ethic *not* to do a dance or to play a tune whose source isn't known; in fact, such material forms the bulk of many folk traditions, so it is the rule rather than the exception in those cases. I feel that anyone who voluntarily creates something clearly intended for this context is entitled to expect it to be regarded the same way that other material of the same type is regarded. In the folk tradition one expects material to propogate from person to person: dances led by one person will be remembered and written down by some dancers, and either taught in some othe place by them or given to another person who will teach it, or sometimes it may be included in a published collection of dances. Is this any less legitimate than what Sharp and Karpeles and their contemporaries did at the beginning of this century? Similarly, musicians pick up tunes from each other, consciously or unconsciously add their own twist, and are heard and copied by others. This is a long-established and accepted tradition. Through your collective thought, and your collective influence on legislation, at least as a society, you can write a copyright law which declares this all to be wrong. You can't have a folk tradition as you know it with this sort of a law, however, if the law is to be taken seriously and enforced with vigor. In a sense, laws reflect traditions that we feel strongly about, to the degree that we insist on certain levels of compliance. They, however, are expressions of our culture and society, and should reflect what we want, in some collective sense. If we want a folk tradition, then our laws need to recognize and accomodate that. Usually what we want from a law is fairness. The copyright law deals with aspects of fairness, and is largely necessary because of greed. If it weren't for the fact that under occasional circumstances it permits or prevents enormous profits to accrue to a few people, it is probably an area which would be left up to principles of good manners. But to place a recent law, written by a fairly small group of people with more claim to popular appeal at best and strong political connections and fund-raising ability at worst than to intellectual power, after listening for some weeks to presentations by PACS and other special-interest groups, over centuries of tradition, I think, is to devalue the concept of law itself, in demanding blind obedience to imperfect structures in place of flexible understanding of the intent and purpose for its existence. > I'm not sure full and absolute compliance with copyright restrictions > is possible, desirable, or even intended. But if not, where do we > draw the line? I don't know about the rest of you, but the issue of > copyright and "folk" arts leaves me feeling uncomfortable. Rich, I would second that (if I haven't already)! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:05:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:11:27 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712191711.MAA13756-AT- sca.UWaterloo.CA> Content-Type: text > >I'd hate to think we've been violating copyrights by dancing > >the creations of Colin, Fried, Gary Roodman, Pat Shaw and all That is technically true. If they retained the copyright then we should ask each and every time we use their works. The idea of a copyright is to give them control over their creations; to control how they are used, displayed (public dance demonstrations) or modified in any way. The surprised me when I found out about it because in the SCA we always do public demonstrations of dances and lo and behold we are using songs (author has copyright) that are arranged (arranger holds copyrights) and dito for the creator/arranger of the dance! > Remember: First, kill all the lawyers! Surely that is too swift. Lead poisoning? ie write on paper with lead sticks and make them eat enough of the paper .... > crowd, at least) indexer that I'd seen copies of Playford's original > publications posted on the www and opined that was surely OK as they were Bzzzt. Nope. These copyright threads have been going on other groups that I'm on. The problem in this case is definately how the material was obtained. You can not go and photocopy works of art or books since the _owner_ is the person who then holds all permissions on how the work gets used. They may allow you to look at it; but if you have not asked for permission to copy and publicly display or distribute said works; then you're going straight to jail. The standard phrase by music arrangers I know is: " (c) 199x Joey Whomever Permission to copy and perform this is granted for not-for-profit groups. All other rights reserved. Permission must be obtained to record this work." They are not professional arrangers and are not trying to make any money; they just want it to be known that this is their work and they want control over what happens to it. As Harlan Ellison has said so often; he'll glady give permission for people to use his ideas; you just have to ask. However, that didn't stop them from stealing his works and not giving him credit in the movie Terminator ... Sometimes even if you try to be nice; people take advantage of you. - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:57:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:45:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts (treatise, diatribe) on Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think Eric raises excellent points. As someone who occasionally writes tunes, here's what I think would strike me as fair: 1) If you hear my tune and play it for a dance, more power to you: That's what it was written for. As far as I'm concerned, making a couple of copies to hand out to the band is fair use. 2) If you print the tune in a book, you should get my permission and pay me the standard royalty. Ditto if you record it. I think the same would apply if I wrote a dance: Dance it, and be merry. If you want to publish it, fine; just get my permission and pay the royalty. Does that sound reasonable to you folks? Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:01:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:06:08 -0500 From: walkowit-AT- is2.nyu.edu (Daniel J. Walkowitz) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts (treatise, diatribe) on Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9712192106.AA10146-AT- is2.nyu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am a historian and have been very interested and engaged with the discussion on copyrights and what I would describer as folk 'authenticity.' In recently beginning a new project I have recently been immersed in Sharp's diaries and letters (etc.) I have two brief (and very tentative) thoughts on the discussion: 1. Sharp had terrible problems with the American infringement of his British copyright ca. 1915, esp. with the Morris book. US publishers ignored British copyright, and Sharp, for financial as much as professional reasons, felt deeply abused. 2. Dances written in the manner of the English country dance (generally from Playford forward) are not 'folk' in the sense that they derive from the community dances; they are 'in the manner of' as it was understood and constructed ('invented'). It may be problemmatic to expect authors today to conform to some abstract folk tradition of transmission when that tradition was itself 'invented' and re-invented and bore a questionable relationship to anything done by the so-called 'common people.' I am not sure what these two thoughts mean for the discussion, except that the debate over copyright is not new and IS important to many writers. Danny Walkowitz walkowit-AT- is2.nyu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:57:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:00:09 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts (treatise, diatribe) on Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <971219160009.dd2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:01:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:04:24 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts (treatise, diatribe) on Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <971219160424.dd2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Here's another approach to the 'dances written in the manner of the English Country Dance . . . ." As a librarian, the matter of copyright is part of the fabric of my everyday professional life. Recently, the literature comments upon the idea that cooking recipes can not be copyrighted. No reason why two recipes for the same dish can't be developed by two cooks some geographical and time-distance apart. Contra and those using English figures to create 'new' dances are, as my folklore teacher used to say, making 'recipes.' In short, tunes are unique enough to merit copyright, but perhaps dances may not. I am neither advocating/negating this idea, but tossing it out for the list to 'savor.' Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:06:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:02:05 -0500 From: "Peter M. Price" <103500.1357-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Redhouse To: "INTERNET:ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU" Message-ID: <199712191904_MC2-2C9B-CCAB-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to be so late in responding but I am catching up on a large backlog of e-mail. My $.02 worth: Red House is both English and Scottish, from a common source: Playford. The music for Red House is AABBCC, each phrase being 8 bars long. The ECD version is 48 bars, the SCD version is only 40 bars because they dropped the repeat of the 'A' phrase. The figures are almost identical between the two versions. A1 Foot it; cast. A2 Repeat B1 Chase B2 Repeat C1 Hey (reel) for 3 (1C and 2M) C2 Hey for 3 (1C and 2W) The A and B parts are only variations on the theme. It is in the C parts where there is a most wonderful differance in interpretation. ECD: Heys across, 2nd person cutting up into the hey ACROSS. SCD: C1: 1W crosses down to BELOW 2M to enter the reel as men pass Lsh to begin: the reel is ON THE SIDES and the men progress as 1W dances home. C2: 1M crosses to BELOW 2W to enter the reel as the women pass Rsh to begin. Again the reel is on the sides, and as 1M dances home the two women progress. Personally I prefer the ECD versions of the A and B parts and much prefer the SCD version of part C. Peter M Price New Haven, Ct 103500.1357-AT- compuserve.com To handle yourself, use your head; to handle others, use your heart. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:02:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:06:13 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Welsh/Scottish Country Dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/17/97 10:31:31 AM, you wrote: << Many of us have been taking a good long look at the history and development of country dancing in Scotland and finding styles, ideas, and dances that, while perhaps not encouraged by the Society, have not been lost. >> I am very please to hear that variation in styles, ideas, and dances have not been lost in Scotland and will be encouraged by RSCDS. Organizations such as RSCDS have done a great deal to promote good community dancing. However, as McNeil states in his book on Scottish cooking: standardization is the antithesis of culture. Or as Donald Johanson claims in his wonderful book FROM LUCY TO LANGUAGE, our cultural inheritance is what sets humans apart from all other living forms and a cooperative use of cultural variation is our best hedge against extinction. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:02:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:06:15 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Singing Games To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Ramsay in St Louis I have experienced, first hand ,the semantic trick of using singing games to refer to dancing. During my early years of dancing in Appalachia, 1947-1973, we used the term "singing games" to refer to country dancing in communities where the word dance was objectionable. At times the singing games were danced to singing rather than instrumental music; the fiddle, especially being considered a devilish instrument. Yet the singing games were often identical to country dances and relied on familiar figures such as stars, right (or left) hand turns, sashays, arming, threading the needle, reels, etc. The only difference was in the terminology and at times in the lack of instrumentalization. I am 'right certain' that the objections to DANCE were religious and linked, thru Puritanism (check the name William Prynne, London's most prolific pamphleteer), back to the middle ages. No doubt there were good reasons for the development of this suppression by the church. One can envision carrying revelry too far. In Appalachia there were communities which were known as dancing communities and the members of that community of people generally did not attend church. Sometimes these communities had a deserved reputation for rowdy and irresponsible behavior. Devout church members abstained from attending dances and those who did attend dances kept their participation quiet and were in danger of being 'churched,' i.e. excommunicated. Fortunately, these practices have been on the wane and country dances have found general acceptance as a wholesome form of social recreation; I call country dancing today, the social alternative to that strange cultural phenomenon called jogging. Each age has its excesses, its inhibitions, and its solutions. Life is so very interesting! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:21:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 00:21:47 -0500 (EST) From: Dawn Culbertson Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm not a copyright expert myself, but can perhaps shed some light on some of the points raised herein. On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Roger W. Broseus, CHP, Ph.D. wrote: > Again, he says: "First, kill all the lawyers." > > (Is that phrase protected by copyright :-?) No, it's in the public domain (as are all Shakespeare's works). > > Further, on Wednesday I was discussing with a well known (within the CDSS > crowd, at least) indexer that I'd seen copies of Playford's original > publications posted on the www and opined that was surely OK as they were > so ancient as to be beyond copyright protections. Well, he surprised me by > saying that there could be problems because the old texts could be owned by > a museum, implying they had some rights to be protected. Early musicians like myself have to deal with this a lot because we frequently play from facsimile editions, and in most cases the original from which the facsimile is copied belongs to a museum or library of some kind. As I understand it, the part of the work that is original is in the public domain, but any additional commentary or additions (such as an introduction to the facsimile) are copyrighted. Also, it's usually necessary to ask the owner of a document for permission to publish it, even if they technically do not own the copyright due to the original's age. I hope this sheds some light on this matter. Dawn Culbertson dcculb-AT- peabody.jhu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:13:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:13:48 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alan Winston, I had never heard the idea linking well-worship with "Birdy in a Cage." Now I am once again overwhelmed by awe over the creativity expended on things we can't know! At any rate, I can put the notion to rest regarding "Birdy": the figure occurs also in Negri (1602), for women only. What if anything it may have to do with well-worship I have no idea. The more immediate question is the strong similarities in figures between dances for 2 and more couples between Negri and Caroso and ECD. Note also that those same figures are found today in Portuguese dances! Real mysteries are just as interesting as those that are made up, and more fun to solve if one can! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:26:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:22:20 -0500 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Singing Games To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199712211525_MC2-2CBB-5A6E-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John - in the seventies my kids spent a summer on an Old-order Amish farm, and after the summer the two teenage girls in the family were permitted to spend a week in the city with me. The orders were: no TV, no department stores, no movies. Explicit permission to visit the zoo and my children's school (Germantown Friends) and to accompany me to my adult school folk dance class. The girls - after some coaxing - joined into some of the international circle dances, but told me later that it was a strange experience. "We don't do dances, we do 'games'"..... After church on Sunday, when the whole congregation meets for seven sweets and seven sours and a lot of socializing, the youngsters (starting at age 16 and stopping when they get married) do singing games, it's part of courting. Hanny ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:26:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:22:32 -0500 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Welsh dances To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199712211525_MC2-2CBB-5A70-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm just handing it on ........ H. Sb: Welsh dances = Fm: Sibn Frick 73642,2074 To: Hanny D. Budnick 74031,77 Hello again, Hanny. I discovered I can't send a message directly to the list, so will be glad of your help as a go-between. Thanks! Message as follows: ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:02:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:05:59 -0800 (PST) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Cooking and Creativity (was Re: Thoughts ...) - hardly any ECD content To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971222150559.22032.rocketmail-AT- web2.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ---FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > As a librarian, the matter of copyright is part of the fabric of my everyday > professional life. Recently, the literature comments upon the idea that > cooking recipes can not be copyrighted. No reason why two recipes for the same > dish can't be developed by two cooks some geographical and time-distance > apart. A statement that could only possibly be made by someone who doesn't cook, look inside cookbooks, or have any notion of either the creativity or the amount of experimentation and work that goes into developing new recipes. For a starter introduction I'd recommend my current favorite cookbook, 1995 James Beard Cookbook Award winner, _Chocolate and the Art of Low-Fat Desserts_ by internationally recognized chocolatier Alice Medrich. Try looking at any one of the recipes in that book, and then figuring the statistical odds that another person "geographically and time-distance apart" might come up with the exact same combination of ingredients and techniques. > Contra and those using English figures to create 'new' dances are, as my > folklore teacher used to say, making 'recipes.' In short, tunes are unique > enough to merit copyright, but perhaps dances may not. Your folklore teacher should have taken a cooking class. It's a chancey thing to trying to draw analogies from a field in which one is ignorant. Barbara Ruth ECD dancer and helpless chocoholic. It's not true as my friends claim, that I can't bake anything without chocolate in it. I can bake something without chocolate as long as I'm making something else with chocolate at the same time. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:22:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:20:51 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Cooking and Creativity (was Re: Thoughts ...) - hardly any ECD content To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <971222112051.ed9-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> As a matter of fact, I do cook and quite often. I tend to side with my folk- lore teacher. I know that dance directions, like cooking recipes, are simply the beginning. For years, every recipe I use I begin by converting it into my cooking methods--especially in the area of bread baking where I have a great deal of commercial and domestic experience. It's not the recipe, it's not the dance directions, it's what you do with them once you take them on. The former folklore teacher, from the University of KY, by the way, was speaking strictly in terms of what we were incorrectly naming "folk-dance." His point was, simply, in the true folklore sense of the word, there are no folk dances anymore--Modern square dancing, to my mind, being one of the ultimate examples. John Forbes/Baker University/Director of Libraries/and a fair bread maker ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:55:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Cooking and Creativity (was Re: Thoughts ...) - hardly any ECD content To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > The former folklore teacher, from the University of KY, by the way, was > speaking strictly in terms of what we were incorrectly naming "folk-dance." > His point was, simply, in the true folklore sense of the word, there are > no folk dances anymore--Modern square dancing, to my mind, being one of the > ultimate examples. Then your folklore teacher should come with me to the town of Augusta, Missouri, in the middle of our state's wine country. There he'll find several indigenous dances (schottische variations, a "stomp-waltz", and others) that meet every test for folklore I know. They're only done in that town (well, occasionally in New Melle, an even smaller town a few miles down the road), they're passed on strictly by word of mouth, virtually everyone in town seems to know them, and nobody thinks they're anything special or unusual. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:08:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Cooking and Creativity (was Re: Thoughts ...) - hardly any ECD content To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971222200620.26003.rocketmail-AT- attach1.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ---FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > > For years, every recipe I use I begin by converting it into > my cooking methods--especially in the area of bread baking where I have > a great deal of commercial and domestic experience. In bread baking particularly, where measurements vary depending on a number of factors, the experience and skill of the cook play an important role in determining the results - just as the skill and understanding of a dance leader are important in the interpretation of written instructions. "Converting" a recipe to one's own methods is a form of interpretation, just as is envisioning and teaching a dance according to one's own methods. In both cooking and dance, interpretation may range from following written instructions as closely as one is able, to making relatively minor stylistic changes, to inventing something genuinely new that was inspired by the original. Interpretation however, whether in cooking or in dance, does not diminishes the significance of the original creator. > It's not the recipe, > it's not the dance directions, it's what you do with them once you take > them on. I wonder how Colin Hume feels about the fact that his contributions are of such minor importance. > John Forbes/Baker University/Director of Libraries/and a fair bread maker Stick with it. If you learn to follow recipes better you may yet become a good one. Barbara Ruth _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:41:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Eric, Your comment that certain problems with regard to Country dancing and folk dancing will never be solved to everyone's satisfaction is right on the mark. The point is, Country dance was lucky, in one sense, in having a creative scholar like Cecil Sharp, who joined forces with recreationists in creating a new and easy style for the 20th century. This is quite a phenomenon in dance history, though not unknown in other arts (opera, for example, was created ca.1600 out of notions about Greek and Roman theater). The problem today, of course, is that Sharp's style is not seen, by most of the large group who participate in it around the world, as an historic phenomenon, but as THE ONLY style. Lovely as it is when done well, it is a 20th-c. invention on a 17th-18th-c. base. With our much increased knowledge of the 17th-18th-c. style now, we can put that with the figures and approach the original beauties of country dance. I would urge people to try it--they might like it! Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:41:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Eric, Your comment that certain problems with regard to Country dancing and folk dancing will never be solved to everyone's satisfaction is right on the mark. The point is, Country dance was lucky, in one sense, in having a creative scholar like Cecil Sharp, who joined forces with recreationists in creating a new and easy style for the 20th century. This is quite a phenomenon in dance history, though not unknown in other arts (opera, for example, was created ca.1600 out of notions about Greek and Roman theater). The problem today, of course, is that Sharp's style is not seen, by most of the large group who participate in it around the world, as an historic phenomenon, but as THE ONLY style. Lovely as it is when done well, it is a 20th-c. invention on a 17th-18th-c. base. With our much increased knowledge of the 17th-18th-c. style now, we can put that with the figures and approach the original beauties of country dance. I would urge people to try it--they might like it! Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:40:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:06:43 +0000 From: Derek Andow Subject: Re: Thoughts (treatise, diatribe) on Re: Copyrights To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. Sharp had terrible problems with the American infringement of his > British copyright ca. 1915, esp. with the Morris book. US publishers > ignored British copyright, and Sharp, for financial as much as professional > reasons, felt deeply abused. As someone who has been "lurking" on the list for a while ... It wasn't just Sharp who had this problem. One of the Gilbert & Sullivan comic operas was hurriedly put through a "performance" on the South Coast because of problems with US copyright and I seem to remember that JRR Tolkien had great difficulties .... > I am not sure what these two thoughts mean for the discussion, > except that the debate over copyright is not new and IS important to many > writers. Derek Andow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:52:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:52:44 -0500 (EST) From: walkowit-AT- is2.nyu.edu (Daniel J. Walkowitz) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712231752.MAA11498-AT- is2.nyu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Julia, I agree with your last note with one small caveat. However much good work Sharp did, I think as Douglass Kennedy later wrote, most in the EFDS had agreed by the mid-1930s [and I think it is the dominate view in the folklore/historians world today] that Sharp's was not an "easy style for the twentieth century." Sharp had, for complicated professional, personal and political reasons [for another time-- I am contemplating a biography as Stangway's and Karpeles' are hagiographies], created and enforced an intellectual, aesthetized professional style and systematically worked to repress the more informal, carefree and informal style advanced by people like Mary Neal and her Esperance Working Girls' club dancers. The EFDS self-consciously tried to loosen up and infuse some energy into the dancing in the 30s, ironically after their exposure to international dancing. Danny ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:15:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:13:00 -0400 From: "Howard A. Markham" Subject: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <349FFF2B.D4389F21-AT- mitre.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: julia s sutton wrote: > The problem today, of course, is that Sharp's style is not seen, by most > of the large group who participate in it around the world, as an > historic phenomenon, but as THE ONLY style. Lovely as it is when done > well, it is a 20th-c. invention on a 17th-18th-c. base. With our much > increased knowledge of the 17th-18th-c. style now, we can put that with > the figures and approach the original beauties of country dance. I would > urge people to try it--they might like it! > > Julia Sutton This may be the opening I've been waiting for to raise the subject of ECD style as we know it. (I've also thought it might be best to defer it a couple more years until we can routinely incorporate video clips in our email.) At the risk of seeming to take Julia's reference to "Sharp's style" too literally, given the context of her comment, I suggest that we ECD enthusiasts of the late 20th century do not dance in the style described so meticulously by Sharp, nor do our leaders teach Sharp's style. Of course, there are many leaders whom I have not met, so I don't know what they teach or how they dance. However, in the ten years I have been going to Pinewoods, mostly to English week, I have never heard a dance leader say they were teaching the Sharp style, and, with a few minor exceptions, I have never heard or seen a demonstration or description of ECD style that resembled Sharp's. (Those of us who have seen movies of Sharp's demonstration team at the early Amherst summer camps can attest that they danced in the manner that he describes; the photos in The Playford Ball depict it, also.) How do we dance? Relative to Sharp, I would say we tend to be flatfooted, erect, sometimes bouncy, sometimes affected. We do not use the running step, so our sets are smaller. A smooth, sweeping, pitched-forward motion on the balls of the feet is little seen. (An aside on the running step: I found it to be the perfect way to keep up in the furiously fast Whirley Gig called by Colin Hume last summer at Pinewoods. It also seemed the natural step when we demonstrated Step Stately at Early Music Week a couple of years ago--our 4-couple set used about 1/4 of the C# floor area.) I can think of a handful of individual dancers who seem to be trying to achieve the Sharp style, with varying and usually pleasing degrees of success. Some are older and were probably taught it as the ideal. Occasionally I see a teacher demonstrate the smooth, sweeping, pitched-forward motion for beginners, but for the most part they don't dance that way, and don't carry that style forward into the rest of their teaching. So, my discussion topic is: What style do we dance? What style do we teach? What style is our ideal for ECD? (I'm half waiting for Julia to say that our modern departures from a strict interpretation of the Sharp style are in the direction of the historical style as it is now understood.) -- Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:27:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:27:24 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Lost Scottish Country Dances To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Danny, I stand corrected, and thank you. But what do you mean when you say Sharp used a 'professional' style? In his day pforessional dancers in England were ballet dancers, as far asI know. Yes indeed, his style was an intellectual and aesthetic view of the 'folk.' It's the 'professionalism' that puzzles me. Hope you can clear up my confusion. I certainly know nothing of the inner battles within the revivalist community. Julia On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Daniel J. Walkowitz wrote: > Julia, > I agree with your last note with one small caveat. However much > good work Sharp did, I think as Douglass Kennedy later wrote, most in the > EFDS had agreed by the mid-1930s [and I think it is the dominate view in the > folklore/historians world today] that Sharp's was not an "easy style for the > twentieth century." Sharp had, for complicated professional, personal and > political reasons [for another time-- I am contemplating a biography as > Stangway's and Karpeles' are hagiographies], created and enforced an > intellectual, aesthetized professional style and systematically worked to > repress the more informal, carefree and informal style advanced by people > like Mary Neal and her Esperance Working Girls' club dancers. The EFDS > self-consciously tried to loosen up and infuse some energy into the dancing > in the 30s, ironically after their exposure to international dancing. > > Danny > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:36:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:35:52 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Howard, Mea culpa, I was using "Sharp style" to include it and its descendants--not careful scholarship, I'm afraid. You are, then, quite right. But no, I definitely do not see these descendants as approaching the style of the 17th and 18th centuries! They used specific step patterns from a fairly large step vocabulary involving kneebends and rises to the toes, hops, leaps, and jumps, none of them bearing any resemblance to any 20th-c. style whatsoever! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:00:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:58:48 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712232058.PAA21859-AT- mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:13 PM 12/23/97 -0400, Howard Markham wrote: >How do we dance? Relative to Sharp, I would say we tend to be flatfooted, erect, sometimes bouncy, sometimes affected. We do not use the running step, so our sets are smaller. A smooth, sweeping, pitched-forward motion on the balls of the feet is little seen. >I can think of a handful of individual dancers who seem to be trying to achieve the Sharp style, with varying and usually pleasing degrees of success. Some are older and were probably taught it as the ideal. Occasionally I see a teacher demonstrate the smooth, sweeping, pitched-forward motion for beginners, but for the most part they don't dance that way, and don't carry that style forward into the rest of their teaching. >So, my discussion topic is: What style do we dance? What style do we teach? >What style is our ideal for ECD? Like Howard, I have been pondering the question of how we dance, and agree that we've moved away from the Sharp style as documented in the early films. Part of what's missing, I believe, is the drive and attack found in Morris and the more energetic forms of sword. Once, Morris dancing was taught in New York on our regular Tuesday English dance nights. For more than twenty years now, however, our ritual dancers have split off into separate teams practicing on other weeknights, and the amount of ritual and traditional dancing on Tuesdays has plummeted: we do no Morris at all, and if we do one traditional dance in the course of a month, it's a wonder. We don't even skip-change all that much. My gut feeling is, we need that vitality and exuberance. At the February Fling in Princeton a couple of years back, Gene Murrow had us sweep up and down the hall doing the up a doubles in Maiden Lane, and it was splendid--not plodding, not flat-footed, but urgent and invigorating. I don't believe there's one ideal style for ECD, but I do believe this Sharp-descended, Morris-influenced style is important for us, and one we can't afford to lose. Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:17:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:15:56 -0400 From: "Howard A. Markham" Subject: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34A10B0B.850ED935-AT- mitre.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Correction to yesterday's note: Our Pinewoods Early Music Week Step Stately set was 3 couples, of course, not 4. -- Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:56:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:56:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Priscilla M. Burrage" Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "A smooth, sweeping, pitched-forward motion on the balls of the feet" I would question the 'pitched-forward motion' I learned American square dancing when I was about eight, not in lessons, but in the set for those under twelve in the corner of a long thin room with the band (no electronics) in the opposite corner. After a few months, my mother said, "She's a good dancer; copy her." And I did. I danced on the balls of my feet, and put my heels down for support or to back up. Years later, I started English country dancing and was surprised to be put on the demonstration team after only a few months because of my style of dancing. I was a little bothered because I didn't and still don't pitch forward when I dance; but, when I was in demonstration sets with Lily Conant, I noticed that neither of us had that 'off-balance' appearance to our movement. Later, I had the opportunity to dance frequently with Winnie Christian (sp?), who was on Cecil Sharp's first demonstration team before World War I. Although there was a good fifty years difference in our ages, we had a similar dance style -- not back on our heels like many square and contra dancers or way up on our toes like Scottish dancers; instead our wieght was over the balls of our feet. I believe it is possible to be a vigorous English country dancer and keep one's weight over the balls of one's feet. I think that most people have one style of dancing that they apply to any type of dancing that they are doing regardless of the inherent nature of that type of dancing. Comments? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Priscilla Burrage Vermont US (pburrage-AT- zoo.uvm.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:48:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:48:42 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: in German translations To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yesterday at the Lincoln Center Library's Dance Div (be warned: soon to be closed for reconstruction for 2 yrs), I found the book, "Alte Kontra-Tanze, ubertragen v. Georg Gotsch u. Rolf Gardiner" (1928: Old Contra Dances, translated by GG & RG). It includes selections from Playford, about 50 in all. Some of the titles used were direct translations, but others seemed odd, e.g.: Sage Leaf = Der grosse Strudel Epping Forest = Bohmerwald (Bohemian Forest, now in Czech Rep.) Dull St.John = Am Jungfernstieg (I think that is the name of a street somewhere) Grimstock = Dudelsack (bagpipe). Beats me why they changed the titles. I didn't try to examine the actual dances, I'll stick to Schwerttanze descriptions. Gotsch & Gardiner were good buddies. Gotsch was a choral director involved in the German youth movement of the interwar period (Wandervogel stuff). H.Rolf Gardiner was a founder of the Cambridge Morris Men, the Travelling Morrice, & the Morris Ring. He was also in the 1930s a prominent figure on the English extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeme right, arguing that Nazi Germany wasn't so terrible and those naughty Czechs, Jews, etc. deserved harsh treatment (this was pre-Holocaust: while Gardiner was essentially a fascist, I am not claiming that he was in favor of mass murder. He wasn't a Mosleyite, rather he had more aristocratic, back-to-the-land connections.) On a lighter note, Gardiner also tried to recruit D.H.Lawrence for sword dancing (it's in L's collected letters -- would I make this up?). Who can resist this stuff? I can't, anyhow. I find it much more exciting than questions of how Cecil hopped, though I understand I'm in a tiny minority and I enjoy reading the recent discussions over authenticity and validity of different styles. Incidentally, one thing no one has brought up: Americans and English don't move the same way. We Yanks are notorious for bad posture and flat footedness, compared to the English. Got to have an effect on respective dance styles; look at American vs. English clogging. Just the same way as with U.S. movies of the 1930s: that precise, clipped style of theatrical speech American actors used, now sounds almost English to us. Though I bet to the English it sounds just as American as Will Rogers did. Incidentally, one reason Sharp had trouble enforcing his copyrights was because many people didn't find them valid in the first place. Remember, he was taking other people's material and publishing it with his name on it, and taking the money, the naughty rogue. This was a big political hoo-haw in the EFDS/ EFDSS till, I think, the late 1930s. Take a look at Boyes' "Imagined Village," though I think she demonizes the saucy rascal a little too much. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:36:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:23:47 +0100 From: Antony Heywood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: in German translations To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712241636.RAA14672-AT- IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Corsin wrote: > Yesterday at the Lincoln Center Library's Dance Div (be warned: soon to be > closed for reconstruction for 2 yrs), I found the book, "Alte > Kontra-Tanze, ubertragen v. Georg Gotsch u. Rolf Gardiner" (1928: Old > Contra Dances, translated by GG & RG). It includes selections from > Playford, about 50 in all. Some of the titles used were direct > translations, but others seemed odd, e.g.: > > Sage Leaf = Der grosse Strudel > Epping Forest = Bohmerwald (Bohemian Forest, now in Czech Rep.) > Dull St.John = Am Jungfernstieg (I think that is the name of a street > somewhere) > Grimstock = Dudelsack (bagpipe). > > Beats me why they changed the titles. > I didn't try to examine the actual dances, I'll stick to Schwerttanze > descriptions. About 10 years ago I was invited to teach ECD at a workshop in Kassel, Germany and although my German is quite good (I'd lived in Kassel for 3 years some time earlier), my knowledge of the dance terms was poor so I turned to Goetsch and Gardiner for help. It didn't help much because the language has changed substantially since the 1920s. However, one of the dances I did was The Geudman of Ballangigh and I told the dancers about the book and the fact that the dance there is called Auf abendlaendischen Bahnhoefer or On Evening Country Railway Stations - a strange title I'm sure you'll agree. Imagine my surprise when after the dance an old man came up and asked me if I would like to know where the title came from. Of course I would. Well, in the old days, many dancers were also ramblers (Wandervogel stuff again) and when they reached the station for their train home, they used to dance this dance on the platform while the train waited, each neutral couple stepping into the train. When the last two couples got in, the guard blew his whistle and the train departed! There was a lady in Holland between the wars who had similar views to Rolf Gardiner (a bit fascist) and after the war, the folk dance world would have nothing to do with her and she died almost unnoticed in the dance world in the early 1980s. Her name was Elise van der Ven ten Bensel. Antony Heywood Volksdansvereniging NVS Check out our new website http://www.iae.nl/users/antony/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:55:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:54:29 -0400 From: "Howard A. Markham" Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34A14C4F.5C36D132-AT- mitre.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Priscilla M. Burrage wrote: > > "A smooth, sweeping, pitched-forward motion on the balls of the feet" > > I would question the 'pitched-forward motion' > I agree that being pitched forward or leaning strongly are not intentional parts of the "Sharp" style. Rather, they are byproducts of trying to keep one's balance. They are pronounced only in rapid forward movement or attempts to change direction. The slower the motion, the more upright the posture, even when dancing on the balls of the feet. I was fascinated by the experiences you recounted. > I believe it is possible to be a vigorous English country dancer and keep > one's weight over the balls of one's feet. I agree with this. Indeed, I think it makes it possible to achieve more vigor while maintaining an appearance of control and grace than can be achieved otherwise. > I think that most people have one style of dancing that they apply to any > type of dancing that they are doing regardless of the inherent nature of > that type of dancing. > There is a lot of evidence to support this idea in my experience. At the moment, I'm thinking of contra dancers and Scottish dancers I've seen doing English. For myself, I do contra with an English smoothness, vigor, and of course phrasing. Our Scottish dance friends credit our English training for eye contact and giving of weight that exceed the Scottish norm (so far nobody has intimated that we have also exceeded bounds of decency and discretion, or good Scottish dancing). -- Howard ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:20:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:18:22 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <971224141822.cb5-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> The few photographs of Sharp's demonstration teams that I've seen (and my experience is not at all intensive, I speak only of those generally availa- ble) show a definite 'leaning' style. I can think of one or two from "Parson's Farewll" where, if the dancers were not moving forward at a pretty fair rate, they would fall on their face. I can also remember May Gadd, during one of her last years at Berea's Christmas School, trying very hard to get us (Intermediate English!) to emulate that style--I would place this in the mid-1970s, perhaps a tad later. Forbes/Baker University/Muso--Old Castle Morris & Garland ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:27:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:27:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IRJVA5I3609559X1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Priscilla Burrage wrote: [snippage of very interesting dance background] >I believe it is possible to be a vigorous English country dancer and keep >one's weight over the balls of one's feet. I think that's where the weight is most of the time, but if you're leading with your chest, as I've been taught, there will be times when you're pitched forward or even backwards a bit. Certainly you can be vigorous without doing this, and some people who _do_ do this (I'm thinking of Renaissance Faire dancers doing lusty peasantry) are too vigorous for _my_ tastes. >I think that most people have one style of dancing that they apply to any >type of dancing that they are doing regardless of the inherent nature of >that type of dancing. It depends. (Was that definitive enough?) I know quite a few 'bilingual' English/contra dancers whose body language and style change between those forms (but who do tend to keep the phrase strictly in contra). I haven't seen a lot of primarily-contra dancers easily pick up style changes to English, which may be one reason why a lot of them don't like it; it's harder to do flat-footed. My sample may be contaminated because the Bay Area English and Contra dance scenes contain a whole lot of people who do or have done Scottish, ritual dance, vintage dance, or IFD/Balkan, so they have had classes where their attention was called to stance, style, and quality of motion. What's really not clear to me is whether people imprint on the first dance form they try out, or (as I suspect), people are in some way 'wired' for different dance forms. (Some excellent ballroom dancers, who can do steps, give weight, keep the beat and follow the phrase, don't seem to have the geographical sense that makes country dancing possible. I know at least one of those who _does_ have the geographical sense as well, but just isn't interested in following somebody else's pre-defined pattern; if he can't improvise, it isn't worth it.) I don't know; maybe I've just had the blinding insight that people have different tastes and abilities. Thanks for an interesting post. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:37:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:37:10 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alan Winston's reference to ECD as a "form" raises one of my pet peeves. It would be so helpful if people would keep in mind that "form" has to do with structure--most of us know this when we think of "form" in poetry. Alan, you're talking about a style or a genre (rhyme scheme, no. of lines, etc.) I hope I can start a change to precision in dance terminology here! Julia On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Priscilla Burrage wrote: > > [snippage of very interesting dance background] > > >I believe it is possible to be a vigorous English country dancer and keep > >one's weight over the balls of one's feet. > > I think that's where the weight is most of the time, but if you're leading with > your chest, as I've been taught, there will be times when you're pitched > forward or even backwards a bit. Certainly you can be vigorous without > doing this, and some people who _do_ do this (I'm thinking of Renaissance Faire > dancers doing lusty peasantry) are too vigorous for _my_ tastes. > > >I think that most people have one style of dancing that they apply to any > >type of dancing that they are doing regardless of the inherent nature of > >that type of dancing. > > It depends. (Was that definitive enough?) I know quite a few 'bilingual' > English/contra dancers whose body language and style change between those forms > (but who do tend to keep the phrase strictly in contra). I haven't seen a lot > of primarily-contra dancers easily pick up style changes to English, which may > be one reason why a lot of them don't like it; it's harder to do flat-footed. > > My sample may be contaminated because the Bay Area English and Contra dance > scenes contain a whole lot of people who do or have done Scottish, ritual > dance, vintage dance, or IFD/Balkan, so they have had classes where their > attention was called to stance, style, and quality of motion. > > What's really not clear to me is whether people imprint on the first dance form > they try out, or (as I suspect), people are in some way 'wired' for different > dance forms. (Some excellent ballroom dancers, who can do steps, give weight, > keep the beat and follow the phrase, don't seem to have the geographical sense > that makes country dancing possible. I know at least one of those who _does_ > have the geographical sense as well, but just isn't interested in following > somebody else's pre-defined pattern; if he can't improvise, it isn't worth it.) > > I don't know; maybe I've just had the blinding insight that people have > different tastes and abilities. > > Thanks for an interesting post. > > -- Alan > > > =============================================================================== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 > Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 > =============================================================================== > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:49:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:49:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IRK2H9Z0XC9559X1-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Julia wrote: Alan Winston's reference to ECD as a "form" raises one of my pet peeves. It would be so helpful if people would keep in mind that "form" has to do with structure--most of us know this when we think of "form" in poetry. Alan, you're talking about a style or a genre (rhyme scheme, no. of lines, etc.) I hope I can start a change to precision in dance terminology here! Julia I think I've run into a conflict between everyday use and technical use of these terms. I can try to use "genre" for this, as I'm used to it from literary discussion, where things like science fiction, mystery, romance (sometimes called "category fiction") are different genres, each with their own set of conventions. I would have been inclined to use the word for distinctions like: "traditional", "modern ceilidh", and even "Pat Shaw", or perhaps even "late 18th century dances that are all some variant on star right, star left, ones down the middle and back and cast off, four changes of rights and lefts", all of which fall under the broader rubric of ECD. I will be awfully confused if I try to start using "style" to mean what kind of dancing it is, while still using it to mean the manner in which the dance is done. How do you see "form" being properly used? Should one say that up-a-double, siding, and arming dances, which have a fairly rigid verse-refrain structure, comprise a form, while verse-only dances make up a different form? (It's tempting to use it for what I think is properly called "formation", the actual shape of the set on the floor.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 07:25:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:27:40 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712251510.KAA02876-AT- ns.kreative.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Alan Winston's reference to ECD as a "form" raises one of my pet > peeves. It would be so helpful if people would keep in mind that > "form" has to do with structure--most of us know this when we think > of "form" in poetry. Alan, you're talking about a style or a genre > (rhyme scheme, no. of lines, etc.) I hope I can start a change to > precision in dance terminology here! > > Julia > As I recall Julia, you criticized me for referring to ECD as a dance "style." As you correctly noted, "style" already has a specialized meaning in dance vocabulary. Perhaps, "genre" is the closest to what we mean. Still, it's easy to carry precision too far. A quest for precision that sacrifices communication is counterproductive. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 07:38:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:36:15 -0500 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: in German translations To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199712251038_MC2-2D28-31BF-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve - Gardiner published TWO books of ECD, Alte Kontrat=E4nze and Neue Kontrat=E4nze. The only differences between the dances in those and in Sharp's series are the names. I was in for quite a surprise when I learne= d the REAL names of many of the dances and realized that I knew the dances all along. In the back of each book is the English name and source for ea= ch dance. The names, to a German, are sometimes whimsical - just as the English on= es to a speaker of English. Many of them are totally arbitrary, some are trying to be translations (Gathering Peascods =3D Erbsenpfl=FCcken).'Am Jungfernstieg' refers to Hamburg's most famous downtown (in polite societ= y anyway) boulevard. It borders on the banks of the Alster Lake and has gra= nd shops on the other side. Gardiner was quite an interesting character, Hungarian by birth. Somewhe= re in Kent (?) he established an intentional community (Wellsprings?), where= my cousin was married. He is also the father of conductor John Elliott Gardiner, the Monteverdi specialist. Hanny Budnick ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 07:59:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:36:16 -0500 From: "Hanny D. Budnick" <74031.77-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: in German translations To: Blind.Copy.Receiver-AT- compuserve.com Message-ID: <199712251038_MC2-2D28-31C0-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Antony - I don't have my copy of Alte Kontrat=E4nze handy to shed some light on a= ny of the other 'strange' names in Germany for ECD. However - "Auf abendl=E4ndischen Bahnh=F6fen" translates as "In OCCIDENTAL train station= s". Abendland for the West (occident) and Morgenland for the East (orient) ar= e the accepted German versions. Hanny Budnick ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:03:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:50:26 +0100 From: Antony Heywood Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: in German translations To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712261603.RAA05850-AT- IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hanny D. Budnick wrote > Gardiner was quite an interesting character, Hungarian by birth. Somewhere > in Kent (?) he established an intentional community (Wellsprings?), where > my cousin was married. He is also the father of conductor John Elliott > Gardiner, the Monteverdi specialist. > It was in Dorset and was called Springhead. Antony Heywood ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:30:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:30:11 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alan and all other curious people: A good reason to use 'form' in a specific way, that is--equated with structure, is that it's so very useful when properly used. Literary analogs are quite sound in dance analysis, I think--up-a-double, siding, and arming, for instance, is an important refrain form, shown as RA,RA1,RA2, etc. and verse only dances are in another form, easily shown as A,A1,A2, etc. This kind of categorizing is essential when talking about the dances. I'm fine with keeping 'style' for the manner in which dances are done. And 'type' or 'genre' of ECD itself. Of course I agree that we don't want to become pedantic, but there's a big step between general accuracy and pedantry. I guess I'd agree with the principle that sloppy language makes for sloppy thinking. Julia On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > Julia wrote: > > Alan Winston's reference to ECD as a "form" raises one of my pet peeves. > It would be so helpful if people would keep in mind that "form" has to do > with structure--most of us know this when we think of "form" in poetry. > Alan, you're talking about a style or a genre (rhyme scheme, no. of > lines, etc.) I hope I can start a change to precision in dance terminology > here! > > Julia > > I think I've run into a conflict between everyday use and technical use of > these terms. I can try to use "genre" for this, as I'm used to it from > literary discussion, where things like science fiction, mystery, romance > (sometimes called "category fiction") are different genres, each with their own > set of conventions. I would have been inclined to use the word for > distinctions like: "traditional", "modern ceilidh", and even "Pat Shaw", or > perhaps even "late 18th century dances that are all some variant on > star right, star left, ones down the middle and back and cast off, four changes > of rights and lefts", all of which fall under the broader rubric of ECD. > > I will be awfully confused if I try to start using "style" to mean > what kind of dancing it is, while still using it to mean the manner in which > the dance is done. > > How do you see "form" being properly used? Should one say that up-a-double, > siding, and arming dances, which have a fairly rigid verse-refrain structure, > comprise a form, while verse-only dances make up a different form? > (It's tempting to use it for what I think is properly called "formation", the > actual shape of the set on the floor.) > > -- Alan > > > =============================================================================== > Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 > Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 > =============================================================================== > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:34:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:34:46 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rich, I don't remember a conversation between us about 'style.' At any rate what I'm saying essentially is that using 'form' as synonymous with 'style' does not help, but rather hinders, communication! Please see my new note to Alan Winston for further commentary. Julia On Thu, 25 Dec 1997, Rich Galloway wrote: > > Alan Winston's reference to ECD as a "form" raises one of my pet > > peeves. It would be so helpful if people would keep in mind that > > "form" has to do with structure--most of us know this when we think > > of "form" in poetry. Alan, you're talking about a style or a genre > > (rhyme scheme, no. of lines, etc.) I hope I can start a change to > > precision in dance terminology here! > > > > Julia > > > > As I recall Julia, you criticized me for referring to ECD as a dance > "style." As you correctly noted, "style" already has a specialized > meaning in dance vocabulary. Perhaps, "genre" is the closest to > what we mean. Still, it's easy to carry precision too far. A quest > for precision that sacrifices communication is counterproductive. > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:51:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:45:20 -0800 (PST) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971226214520.26256.rocketmail-AT- web1.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ---Rich Galloway wrote: > > > Alan Winston's reference to ECD as a "form" raises one of my pet > > peeves. It would be so helpful if people would keep in mind that > > "form" has to do with structure--most of us know this when we think > > of "form" in poetry. Alan, you're talking about a style or a genre > > (rhyme scheme, no. of lines, etc.) I hope I can start a change to > > precision in dance terminology here! > > > > Julia > > > > As I recall Julia, you criticized me for referring to ECD as a dance > "style." As you correctly noted, "style" already has a specialized > meaning in dance vocabulary. Perhaps, "genre" is the closest to > what we mean. Still, it's easy to carry precision too far. A quest > for precision that sacrifices communication is counterproductive. Well-said. As Alan points out there is a difference between technical and ordinary usage of language. His plain English use of the word "form" as synonomous with "type" or "category" was perfectly understandable to me, and I suspect to everyone else reading the list, while Julia's presumably more precise use of it in analogy with poetry has me scratching my head in bewilderment (form is structure, but structural elements like number of lines and rhyme scheme are not form, but rather style?). More to the point, it was my understanding that this list was meant as a forum for anyone with an interest in ECD and a point of view they wished to express, not as an on-line equivalent of an academic journal. Those with a background in the academics of dance history should certainly feel free to use whatever language they are most comfortable with, and sometimes the rest of us learn something from it. But I take strong exception to anyone criticizing those who express themselves in perfectly understandable, everyday language on the grounds that it doesn't conform to academic terminology, or trying to impose a standard that would exclude those who do not share that academic interest or background. Barbara Ruth _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:53:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:53:02 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Barbara Ruth, I'm astonished that anyone could be so offended by a gentle suggestion on my part. I am certainly not trying to lay down any rules to anyone, and I marvel at the extreme umbrage you've taken against me. I don't deny being a scholar or an academic. In fact I see no need to defend my profession, or my point, for that matter. And I do believe that ordinary people can speak clearly, indeed. My suggestion was made with the hope of encouraging clear communication--obviously I've stirred up roiling emotions I had no idea were there. Time to turn down the heat under the kettle and let it stop steaming up the issues! And yes, numbers of syllables or lines, rhyme schemes, and other little details of that nature also fall under the heading of form. As far as I know, the shape of a dance on the floor has nothing to do with the use of 'form'as a part of artistic analysis. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:41:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:41:17 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Julia, Thank you for your response to Barbara Ruth. While I am as guilty as the rest of having used "form" in a casual, imprecise manner (my dance cards include a line which says "Form: longways, duple minor" or some other such thing, and I haven't found the time yet to go through them and replace that with more appropriate wording), I support your urging of many of the rest of us to make an effort to use words which have more precise definitions within academic circles when we are trying to talk about issues where those definitions are relevant. I, for one, am glad that some members of the academic world find that there is enough worthwhile discussion on this list to put up with the nonsense that also propogates freely here. I am dismayed when the expression of individual opinions on this list crosses the boundary between vigorous, stimulating discussion of dance issues and attacks on the professions of those contributing their opinions. I feel that the purpose of this list is more to bridge gaps between different points of view rather than to build walls between them. I feel honored by your participation, even if I do not dance at a level which permits me to experiment with all of the ideas which you have put forth in discussions on this list. Perhaps the suggestion of acrimony which seems to have arisen in connection with this discussion comes from a sense of frustration in dealing with the challenge that you give us. I would love to try to learn how to dance ECD in the styles of the 17th and 18th centuries, but I am not such a quick study that such introductions as were presented at Amherst in the summer of 1996 enable me to take away with me more than a concept of what that might encompass, and even if I can find the time to review all of the notes and watch what videos are available, I don't believe that I could learn enough to teach others around here in a competent manner. Persuading enough other dancers in my locale, under these circumstances, to give something like this a try is at least as frustrating an undertaking, and so I must depend on opportunities at workshops and dance camps, which must compete with my other interests, for the realization of this experience. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:00:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:00:08 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Eric, Many thanks for your support and understanding. I was rather astonished to find myself portrayed as a monster, THE WICKED ACADEMIC EXPERT! And I'm delighted to find that my suggestions are not unwelcome. I've always felt that email offered me a chance to touch, to inform, give food for thought, and be informed by, others who love country dancing. If I had thought my comments would insult, I'd have sent them on private email. Keep up your good work. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:28:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:28:40 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: "First footing" To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII With numerous occasions to celebrate at this time of year, finding dances that are in some way connected with traditional celebrations is particularly satisfying to me. Thus I was pleased to find Fried Herman's dance "First Footing" in her collection, "Potters' Porch". The description of the desirable properties that the first visitor on New Year's day should have, from the custom in northern England, reminds me of similar customs my Scottish mother used to tell of what she remembered from her early years there in the first decade of this century, and of the experiences of others who have had the good fortune to be in Scotland on New Year's day. A friend with family in Quebec province said that similar customs existed among the French-speaking population there. I'm wondering how widespread this custom is, so I'm asking how many others have experienced some form of this custom. As Fried describes it in "Potters Porch": "A dark-haired man, bearing a green sprig,should be the first in the New Year to cross the threshold." Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:31:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:30:22 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: POSSIBLY Incomplete Message: Re: ECD Style To: ECD ECD Message-ID: <199712271331_MC2-2D48-F7D8-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll second Eric's defense of Julia's tactful and respectful contribution= towards more clarity in language when talking about dance. We are lucky = to have a scholar of Julia's reputation as an active participant in our non-academic forum, even with her reputation for firmly held opinions eve= n more firmly expressed (that's why we love ya' Julia). There are probably= many others like me, with a serious interest in ECD but lacking ANY forma= l training in dance or dance history, who would just as soon not re-invent too many wheels or go down too many blind alleys (wow, TWO cliche metapho= rs in one sentence!). If the community of folks who think and write serious= ly about dance have found it useful to restrict the use of the word "form" t= o apply to structure, and to replace its colloquial use with another word like genre, that's something we can all benefit from. = Barbara Ruth's also right in asserting that we all know what one means by= "form of dance," and a look at why that's so might be useful as well (or = at least amusing). I've just realized I've never seen a universally accepte= d definition of dance, but I'll offer this (hoo boy!, here goes...) "expression through movement." (The idea of expression is intended to exclude such purposeful and trained movement as a surgeon's one-handed stitching or golfer's swing). Anyway, one can "structure" such movement = in many ways-- from solo, individualistic expressions to the conventions of ballroom dancing to English Country dancing. ECD highly structures movement-- can you think of any meaning in the phrase "free-form English Country Dancing"? Applying the scholar's restricted definition of "form"= to the general concept of dance to distinguish one genre of dance from another according to structure makes sense. So that's why I think referring to ECD as a "form" of dance is intuitively understood-- it is i= ts very structure that defines it (certainly not its "style" which, as we've= been reading, has varied significantly over the centuries). . Now that I've probably confused everyone, including myself, I'm going to prepare for our Country Dancers of Westchester New Year's Eve program, co-MC'd with Christine Helwig. You're all invited! Good program! Come = on over...(short trip from JFK airport for you overseas readers :-) ... Gene Murrow EC Dancer, Musician, Caller and aesthetics scholar wannabe = ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:56:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:31:43 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: POSSIBLY Incomplete Message: Re: ECD Style To: ECD ECD Message-ID: <199712271332_MC2-2D43-E5A-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll second Eric's defense of Julia's tactful and respectful contribution= towards more clarity in language when talking about dance. We are lucky = to have a scholar of Julia's reputation as an active participant in our non-academic forum, even with her reputation for firmly held opinions eve= n more firmly expressed (that's why we love ya' Julia). There are probably= many others like me, with a serious interest in ECD but lacking ANY forma= l training in dance or dance history, who would just as soon not re-invent too many wheels or go down too many blind alleys (wow, TWO cliche metapho= rs in one sentence!). If the community of folks who think and write serious= ly about dance have found it useful to restrict the use of the word "form" t= o apply to structure, and to replace its colloquial use with another word like genre, that's something we can all benefit from. = Barbara Ruth's also right in asserting that we all know what one means by= "form of dance," and a look at why that's so might be useful as well ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:43:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:41:45 -0800 (PST) From: Ric Goldman Subject: E-flyer for the BACDS Playford Ball To: Recipient-list-AT- suppressed.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199712290341.TAA01697-AT- netcom20.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's the details for the 1998 BACDS Playford Ball. My apologies if you're on multiple lists and get duplicates. Please pass this on to your friends, cohorts, partners, or just folk who might be interested. Thanx, Ric ======================================================================== The Bay Area Country Dance Society Presents... A trip to THE PLAYFORD BALL Saturday, March 28, 1998 Doors open at 6:45 p.m. Grande March at 7:15, Dancing until 11:00 p.m. Refreshments provided The Scottish Rite Temple 1547 Lakeside Drive Oakland, California "Journey 'Round the World" Dances will be briefly talked through but not prompted. Formal or Period Dress Encouraged. Our dance master "Ambassador" will be Bob Fraley with music by Bangers and Mash (Craig Johnson, David Strong, Stanley Kramer and Susan Kramer. The "Travel Itinerary" may include the following dances: All Saint's Day The Punch Bowl Barbarini's Tambourine Star of David Correlli's Maggot Sun Assembly Dr. Vincent's Delight Trip O'er Tweed Dunham Oaks Trip to Amsterdam Fenterlarick Trip to Paris Lillibulero Trip to Tunbridge Miss DeJersey's Memorial Wa is Me Prince William Wakefield Hunt Volunteers are welcome! Some work scholarships available. Tickets are $23 if registration is received before March 9th, $28 from March 9th to March 25th (no registrations at the door). Gallery seating with refreshments but no dancing are $8. Need more information? Ok, just contact: Ric Goldman, 650-326-FOOL, timelord01-AT- sprynet.com Lise Dyckman, 650-326-3665, ldyckm-AT- ix.netcom.com Patsy Bolt, 650-856-3038 Don't get caught without your passport - register TODAY! and join the journey. Make checks payable to BACDS. Detach and mail the registration form below to: Playford Ball, c/o Patsy Bolt, 3234 Ramona Street Palo Alto, CA 94306. ======================================================================== BONUS! Workshops to learn the Ball dances - all admissions $7 ($6 for BACDS members) - call for more details: "Itinerary review" In the East Bay on Sunday, February 22, 1998 2 - 5 p.m. Veterans' Hall 6401 Stockton Avenue (1 block east of San Pablo) El Cerrito, CA On the Peninsula on Sunday, March 8th, 1998 2 - 5 p.m. Catholic Charities Hall 600 Columbia Drive (along Avenida de las Pulgas) San Mateo, CA "Last minute packing" Practice dance on Friday night, March 27th, 1998 8 - 11 p.m. Catholic Charities Hall 600 Columbia Drive (along Avenida de las Pulgas) San Mateo, CA (If you're out of the San Francisco Bay Area, contact Ric or Lise above for information on Ball dances, or setting up a local workshop). ======================================================================== BACDS 1998 PLAYFORD BALL REGISTRATION E-FORM Name(s): _______________________________________________________________ Please print your first name as it should appear on your name tag: _______________________________________________________________ Address: _______________________________________________________________ City: ______________________________ State: ______ Zip: _____________ Phone: _________________ I am enclosing $________ for ______ tickets. E-mail: _______________________________________________________________ ___ I can provide hospitality for ____ out-of-towners. ___ I need hospitality for _____ people. ___ I want to be a Ball volunteer ____ before the day _____ on the day. REGISTER SOON! --- SPACE IS LIMITED! --- Final-Deadline MARCH 25TH. Dance booklets (your passport) will be sent out during latter Feburary. ======================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 05:57:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: dancing and Politics To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anthony Heywood mentions Elise van der Ven-ten Bensel. She and her husband D.J. van der Ven seem to have almost single handedly led the Netherlands' folk dance revival. They also wrote articles for EFDS/EFDSS publications; published the newsletter "De volksdansmare;" ran dance workshops at their home (near Nijmegen?), "De Meihof;" and their big book, "De volksdans in Nederland" (Folk Dancing in the Netherlands), published in 1942, has many photos which look like something out of EFDSS events of the time. (Costumes, I mean.) They seem to have been very closely tied to the English revival as early as while Sharp was still alive, and remained connected through the 1930s. And indeed, she was a leading Dutch collaborationist during the war, and as Anthony says was ostracized later. Her husband apparently was treated less harshly; he was more of an academic, or at least less politically involved than she. I hope no one objects to discussing this side of the history of country dancing. Personally I find it fascinating. There is a curious silence about politics, at least in North American country dancing circles, and to some extent in England as well; almost as though it's somehow shameful, or at least embarrassing, to discuss such topics. Perhaps a reaction against some of the politicization (both from right and left) of folk music & dance up to, at least, WW2. Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:52:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:52:25 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gene Murrow, Many thanks for your lovely response to Barbara Ruth's fury. I have one caveat--Though I know I have strong opinions, I insist they be based on fact!! Does that make them factual opinions, knowledgeable opinions, non-opinions, rational opinions, or 'whatever' opinions? My main point in writing to an ECD group is to give information so that others may form their own opinions based on facts. If my views are taken as opinions based on fantasy then I'm not making myself clear. The point is that much of the "history" we've been given up till now is based on fantasy, and I'd like to reduce our dependence on it. As for "form," I still think its colloquial usage as synonymous with style, type, or genre needs to be dropped by people interested in serious discussion who want to think and converse clearly! It's not a crime to become educated or sophisticated in terminology, and anyone can do it! Happy New Year! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:57:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:57:16 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gene again, I always have additional thoughts: this time on your definition of dance. You say nothing about the fact that until very recently all dance we know of has been rhythmic (an aspect shared with music) and organized; furthermore, most of it has been to and with music (that is, organized sound! If you're going to work out a good definition those aspects must be included, I think. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:23:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:23:13 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen D Corrsin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: manners To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII People who know me well will probably say that I'm no one to bring up "manners" as a topic. But I've been a member of various email lists over the past 10 years or so, I've seen them come, go, and go down in flames, and I'd like to make a couple of requests with regard to this mini-tempest in a tiny teapot over Prof Sutton's messages. It was not really appropriate to refer to Barbara Ruth's "fury." She (Barbara) seemed annoyed, but I wouldn't say "fury." Comments like that are best kept to private messages not distributed to the public. If Prof Sutton thought her messages to Gene were private, then perhaps she should review the use of the "reply" function. People should also remember that emailed opinions can seem quite harsh and strident when the sender didn't mean them to. This is a common email problem that comes up repeatedly. And personally, speaking as an academic and historian who has his own books out (from 19th century Poland, to the history of sword dancing), perhaps "ex cathedra" statements telling us how we should improve our thinking, so we'd all be correct, don't seem to be appropriate, for an email list whose members are chiefly experienced dancers, many of them teachers themselves. This is not a lecture hall, nor a master class, or anything of the kind. If I seem to be breaking my own suggestion that things be kept more private: well, I wasn't the one to make this a public issue. thanks Steve Corrsin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:28:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:28:20 -0800 (PST) From: rushton-AT- biology.utah.edu (Emma Rushton) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Copyrights and using recordings for dancing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All this discussion about copyrights has got me wondering - what is the situation with using recordings for dancing to? Many many ECD clubs use tapes most of the time, being unable to find musicians who will commit to a once-a-week event, and being unable to afford professionals. The best recordings for dancing to are those specifically made for the purpose, and it seems obvious that the musicians expect them to be used that way - otherwise, they would not make the tracks dance length, and kindly put on the sleeve notes how many times through the tune is played. Should we pay royalties every time we play a recording at a dance that charges admission? The thing is, I just cannot imagine the admin required to do that - to keep track of recordings used to find the correct addresses to send money to, to find out how much to pay and to send the money in the correct currency, eg pounds sterling to England. If I had to do that, I'd give up. Then there is the murky area of taping recordings for use at dances; for instance I can get a fairly portable machine which will play tapes and CDs but some of my music is on LP, and I have to tape it. If I bequeath the tape to the club, and keep my LP, and move away (say) is the club in breach of copyright for using the tape? What about tapes taken from recordings which are no longer available? What if I leave town, and the club demands I make copies of _all_ my recordings so they can continue to dance? So far this question is academic, as far as I am concerned, though it is not academic for a great many other clubs. In Salt Lake, we _do_ have musicians (I am one, when I'm not calling), but if, as some people have requested, we expand to two monthly dances, one of them would likely be done to recordings (I haven't approached the band about this yet), so I would like to know what the situation is. Just so I don't get flamed, all the recordings I would use are "primary" ie I bought them from music companies or the musicians themselves; they are not pirated. Anyone out there know the answer? Emma Emma Rushton, Department of Biology, University of Utah, 257 South, 1400 East Salt Lake City, UT 84112 phone (801) 585-9425, fax (801) 581-4668 "time is fun when you're having flies" - Kermit the Frog ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:20:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:13:09 -0500 From: marthacd-AT- juno.com (MARTHA C DAVEY) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights and using recordings for dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971230.181641.4246.0.marthaCD-AT- juno.com> References: Emma- I don't know the legal or financial situation regarding use of recorded music for ECD, but I can tell you that on the international folk dance scene the *rule* is recorded music (live music is the exception) and nobody that I have ever heard of pays royaties. Martha Davey 25-14 37 ST, Astoria, NY 11103 (718)278-4389 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:55:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:55:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Copyrights and using recordings for dancing To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IRSHRHAYQA9GVD82-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Emma has some good questions about copyright, and I have answers to some of them. First, Martha's point: in IFD, people dance to recorded music and nobody she knows of pays royalties. Conversely. in Modern Western Squares, the caller's organization has negotiated a deal with the composer's rights organizations (ASCAP/BMI) that allows the caller to pay an annual fee ($125, I think) and have the rights to play any recording for dancing for any club. (Since Modern Western Squares tend to make heavy use of pop music from the last fifty years, this is important.) Also, I'm under the impression that a fair amount of IFD recording was commissioned for this purpose, although I've never held a Folkcraft 45 in my hand and looked at the label to see if it says anything about it. I think there's some legal question about the rights to play recordings "suitable for dancing" for dancing. I have never seen such a recording that explicitly says 'royalty-free' or 'all rights waived'; I have also never heard of a lawsuit based on using recorded country dance music for dancing. Technically, I think the artists haven't given up their rights unless they say so. (And it isn't in their interest to say so, since declaring it 'royalty-free' deprives them of any income if somebody with some money picks up the recording for other uses, as has happened repeatedly with Bare Necessities.) >Then there is the murky area of taping recordings for use at dances; for >instance I can get a fairly portable machine which will play tapes and CDs >but some of my music is on LP, and I have to tape it. If I bequeath the >tape to the club, and keep my LP, and move away (say) is the club in breach >of copyright for using the tape? Actually, _you_ were in breach of copyright as soon as you bequeathed the tape to the club -- copies were no longer for personal use, which means that the tape is a bootleg and you are a pirate -- and the club is in breach of copyright as well. The actual impact of that fact is probably miniscule. The government isn't interested until you get into wide scale piracy of properties owned by commercial enterprises; creator's rights organizations that spend their time policing unauthorized use (at summer camps, etc), aren't interested in music written by people who have been dead for centuries >What about tapes taken from recordings >which are no longer available? Obnoxiously enough, the recordings being out of print has no impact on their copyright status. >What if I leave town, and the club demands >I make copies of _all_ my >recordings so they can continue to dance? This doesn't affect the copyright status. Personal opinions, and Steve Corrsin can certainly jump on me for this if he wishes, and besides, I am neither a lawyer nor a recorded musician nor likely to become one: I don't believe Bare Necessities or Marshall Barron or Ring O'Bells Dance Band are going to be in the least surprised, upset, or unhappy if their suitable-for-dancing recordings are actually used for dancing, and I don't think they'd expect a royalty to be paid, and I wouldn't have a qualm about so using it. I think they'd be unhappy -- though perhaps not surprised -- if pirate copies of their recordings were circulated around, especially when the recordings are still available. Bands that make their own CDs (which now include Bare Necessities) have to sink a fair amount of money into it; pirate copies that keep legit copies from being sold do the band actual harm. So I think the club should either use your copies when you're there or buy its own copies, but that you shouldn't copy stuff out of your collection and give it to anybode else; that's just ripping off the musicians. Is there any chance that you could get some single strong musician to lead an open band for your second series? To me, adequate live music is generally better even than excellent recorded music, and maybe you can use this opportunity to nourish more local talent. (And maybe you can't, or can't right away, in a city with only one dance a month. It took about five years of growing the Bay Area English Regency Society, and the dedication of a strong musician, before we could ditch recordings and go for live music almost all the time, and even then we're piggybacking on the BACDS musical community.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:19:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:18:23 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From John Ramsay in St Louis.=0A=0AThe recent discussions (which I find e= xhilarating and a very proper and=0Acivilized use of the internet) prompt= s me to copy the opening paragraphs of=0Athe book I have been working on.= Here it is:=0A=0A=0AThe Answer is a Question =0A=0AChapter 1.=09Definin= g a Verity=0A =0AAs an initial classroom exercise in my Folk Dance class= es at Berea College, I=0Awould ask each student to bring me five definiti= ons for the word =93dance.=94=0AThe instructions asked students to utiliz= e a variety of sources including=0Adictionaries, encyclopedias, textbooks= , other types of literature about dance,=0Aor even to attempt their own d= efinitions. For me, it was like having twenty-=0Afive hours in the libra= ry looking for the definition myself, except the=0Astudent=92s had a grea= t variety of approaches which resulted in a broad survey=0Aof the literat= ure available in our library, and they did it all in one night!=0AI then = had the fun of assembling these definitions, selecting and arranging=0Ath= em into provocative sequences, and notifying those students who would be= =0Acalled upon to share one of their definitions in an orchestrated class= =0Apresentation. =0A=0AI always loved the next class session. Although = the class met one of the=0Aphysical education requirements at the College= , my hopes for the students (and=0Athe College=92s, I believe) were much = broader, including an attempt to open=0Atheir minds to new insights into = ultimate truth.=0A=0AYou can imagine the animated discussion which follow= ed as one student would=0Aread a definition, followed by another which mi= ght state the same definition=0Awith more color or more succinctly, and t= hen by one which disagreed=0Aemphatically with that one. Invariably the = students would realize that the=0Aexperts really have trouble defining da= nce. This realization would empower=0Athe students with the confidence n= eeded to use their own judgement, an=0Aimportant step in opening minds. = The next step was to call on some students=0Awho had drafted their own de= finition. These were often presented with=0Ayouthful alacrity and the gr= eat native wisdom which students can share in=0Aclass especially after se= eing how much confusion there is in the literature.=0AThere would often b= e a palpable approval of the selected student definitions=0Aas the orches= tration neared its climax. The climax was to call upon those=0Astudents = who bounded beyond the confines of the assignment and submitted their=0Ap= ersonal insight instead of a definition: =93It isn=92t as important to = define=0Adance as to enjoy it.=94 =0A=0ASomeone would always make this o= bservation and it liberated the entire class=0Ato enjoy participating in = a dance class for the rest of the term and even to=0Apossibly dance for t= he rest of their lives. =0A=0AThe paradox is that this exercise in the f= utility of definition does not=0Ademean our need to classify our ideas by= giving them words. Giving words is a=0Away to link our finite minds to = infinite knowledge and to link person to=0Aperson in a joint search for a= n understanding of life.=0A=0AParadoxes are part and parcel of life. Hum= ans both love and loath them; we=0Afind them both intriguing and unaccept= able at the same time. The human=0Apenchant to classify everything is ou= r way of forcing our world to make sense=0Ato us. Words themselves are a= way of classifying the world-- bagging,=0Atagging, and analysing each th= ought in an attempt to understand the experience=0Aof being alive.=0A=0AT= he act of defining words is the ultimate form of classification. It is w= here=0Awe must begin as we grapple with ultimate truth and it is where we= end as we=0Atry to communicate what we understand. But in the end, alth= o we may not be=0Aable to define dance, we can find great pleasure in dan= cing. =A9 JMR=0A ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:07:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:06:45 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: manners To: sdc16-AT- columbia.edu, owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <6a2a9abf.34a9b6c7-AT- aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Ramsay in St Louis responding to the recent discussions: I am excited by the medium of e-mail. To me, the discussions lately have been most interesting, informative, and even productive. Furthermore, I think that they have been civil. I don't consider that anyone has not been listening considerately as well as being freely honest. We have a real, lively society functioning as society must. As long as we are kind, listen, and speak up as we try to find our way, both individually and collectively, we will not become extinct. Keep alive! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:29:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:28:11 -0800 From: "Michael J. O'Connor" Subject: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <34A9F40B.6709-AT- erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: JohnBerni wrote: > > As an initial classroom exercise in my Folk Dance classes at Berea > College, I would ask each student to bring me five definitions for the > word “dance.” The instructions asked students to utilize a variety of > sources including dictionaries, encyclopedias, textbooks, other types > of literature about dance, or even to attempt their own definitions. John: Just curious, but did anyone ever ask "Why?"? Mike ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:42:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:44:57 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights and using recordings for dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199712310426.XAA14715-AT- ns.kreative.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT When you buy a recording, you are purchasing the right to play the recording for personal purposes. However, you may not play it for commercial purposes. Hence, ASCAP is within its rights when it goes after shop keepers and bar owners who use CDs or tapes for background music. Perhaps Western Square dance groups are different, but I can't imagine a commercial ECD group. (Well, I did hear about a commercial American colonial dance group once. The dancers booted out the organizers and formed a new one as soon when they found out where their money was going. I'm baffled though at how such a small group could have turned enough of a profit to make it worth pocketing. I should add that I'm not implying embezzlement. The organizers were honestly running the group to make a few bucks for themselves.) I digress. Even though ECD groups are not commercial, I'm not sure whether playing a recording at an ECD could be considered personal use. I'd say it is, but I suspect the greedy bullies that go after campfire songs at summer camps would disagree. As much as I detest their pettiness, there is a big difference between singing a campfire song and playing a record of the same song. You paid for the right to play the record, but not the right to sing the song. ---------------- John Ramsay, thank you for your elegant post about your class, et al. I hope we can expect to hear even more from you next year. Happy New Year all! ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:25:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:12:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copyrights and using recordings for dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Emma: As I understand it (I am not a lawyer), if you play copyrighted recordings as part of a public event, permission is required and royalties are due. For a small organization, the royalties are correspondingly small. You're right about the administrative difficulty of arranging the royalty payments; in the related case of composers' and arrangers' royalties, places where public performances take place get around that by signing contracts with the performing rights societies (in the USA these are ASCAP and BMI), paying a flat fee to these organizations for the right to use material under their control. How this applies to material whose authorship is in the public domain, but whose performance is copyrighted, I don't know, but probably someone out there does. The achilles heel of these organizations, in the view of many musicians, is that they normally distribute the royalties on the basis of airplay sampling, which means that the royalties you sent them would mean another few cents in the pockets of the Spice Girls or Paul McCartney, rather than being sent to the musicians whose recordings you actually played. It seems likely to me that keeping track of a year's dances in a database wouldn't be all that hard (eight entries per week); sorting at the end of the year and writing checks may not be out of the question. It's not a lot of money (in fact, some checks may be for less than a dollar), but this might be a case where the law, the musicians, and everyone's consciences might be satisfied. My $.02 worth, so to speak. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 06:05:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:05:23 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: POSSIBLY Incomplete Message: Copyrights To: ECD ECD Message-ID: <199712310905_MC2-2D9B-90B0-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a teacher, "consumer," and sometime author of materials for ECD, I've enjoyed the recent thoughtful and informative discussions about copyright= and fair use. It's apparent we operate in a sphere where good will and good judgement, rather than the letter of the law, must guide our behavio= r. About 4 years ago, I set myself some rules to follow. For the sake of discussion, here they are, in general terms: = 1. If a recording exists, we should buy it, rather than tape/duplicate i= t. Don't accept "gifts" of tapes of materials available for sale. 2. If the dance is published, buy the book. Don't ask the caller or auth= or for a copy or simply write down the directions on a card. If an author gives us copies of unpublished material (as Fried Herman, Colin Hume, or Gary Roodman often do for other teachers), make sure to buy the published= book as soon as it is available. 3. If someone asks for a copy of a dance we've called, or the music, suggest he/she buy the book, if it's available. (I used to whip out a pa= ge from my dance direction binder and photocopy it-- no more). = 4. At a workshop, have copies of relevant recordings or books available f= or sale (simple at Pinewoods where the CDSS bookstore in exile exists-- take= s some effort at week-end workshops). = 5. For especially popular items in my work, I buy multiple quantities whi= ch I then have available for sale (or to give away to the enthusiastic and deserving). Examples are Peter Barnes' books or Marshall Barron's books.= = I haven't asked the authors/publishers for quantity discounts, though I suppose I could. It's a no-profit transaction at the moment. Authors of ECD materials, as several people have pointed out, do it with full knowledge of the "folk" milieu in which the materials will be used, and an understanding that it is not big business. Nevertheless, I think = we have a responsibility to ensure that they cover their costs, and make som= e money to provide encouragement and tangible evidence of appreciation. Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:55:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:53:36 -0500 From: Martin.Fager-AT- bowne.com (Martin Fager) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re[3]: ECD Style [Definition, "What Is Dance?"] To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, JohnBerni Message-ID: <0005E1BD.1618-AT- bowne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I go for a simple, open definition of dance: movement to music. For me, this covers it. Anything added to this is not definition, but description or elaboration. The only possible exception I can think of is the occasional modern dance piece I have seen in which the performers move to spoken word, or in silence. Modern dancers do of course look to expand boundaries and definitions. This is much of what makes that particular form/genre/idiom/style (?!) interesting to me. I have on occasion broken into spontaneous dancing by myself (usually when alone) when no music is being played, but when I do this, there is music playing in my head (who needs a Walkman?) and this fits into my definition. This definition would also cover unaccompanied tap or clogging, as the dancer(s) would also be making the music. Marty Fager (speaking only for myself, of course) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:07:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:07:05 -0500 From: Gene Murrow Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Copyrights To: ECD ECD Message-ID: <199712311307_MC2-2DA7-3599-AT- compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a teacher, "consumer," and sometime author of materials for ECD, I've enjoyed the recent thoughtful and informative discussions about copyright= and fair use. It's apparent we operate in a sphere where good will and good judgement, rather than the letter of the law, must guide our behavio= r. About 4 years ago, I set myself some rules to follow. For the sake of discussion, here they are, in general terms: = 1. If a recording exists, we should buy it, rather than tape/duplicate i= t. Don't accept "gifts" of tapes of materials available for sale. 2. If the dance is published, buy the book. Don't ask the caller or auth= or for a copy or simply write down the directions on a card. If an author gives us copies of unpublished material (as Fried Herman, Colin Hume, or Gary Roodman often do for other teachers), make sure to buy the published= book as soon as it is available. 3. If someone asks for a copy of a dance we've called, or the music, suggest he/she buy the book, if it's available. (I used to whip out a pa= ge from my dance direction binder and photocopy it-- no more). = 4. At a workshop, have copies of relevant recordings or books available f= or sale (simple at Pinewoods where the CDSS bookstore in exile exists-- take= s some effort at week-end workshops). = 5. For especially popular items in my work, I buy multiple quantities whi= ch I then have available for sale (or to give away to the enthusiastic and deserving). Examples are Peter Barnes' books or Marshall Barron's books.= = I haven't asked the authors/publishers for quantity discounts, though I suppose I could. It's a no-profit transaction at the moment. Authors of ECD materials, as several people have pointed out, do it with full knowledge of the "folk" milieu in which the materials will be used, and an understanding that it is not big business. Nevertheless, I think = we have a responsibility to ensure that they cover their costs, and make som= e money to provide encouragement and tangible evidence of appreciation. Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:49:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:46:01 -0800 (PST) From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: definitions To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19971231184601.15706.rocketmail-AT- attach1.rocketmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In response to John Ramsay's challenge to use definitions as a way of expanding our understanding rather than a necessarily futile attempt to pin down the "true" meaning of a word (at least that's how I read your missive), I want to throw into the pot, without necessarily subscribing to it as defining, the fact that the word "dance" is used by behavioral biologists to describe stereotyped sequences of movements by animals for communicative purposes. Bees perform "dances" to communicate the location of food sources, and many birds are said to perform "courtship dances." Do those uses have anything to say about our definition of dance as a human activity? I don't know, but there is at least one aspect of the behavior in which some humans and animals share the same motivation to dance - attracting a mate. Barbara Ruth _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free -AT- yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:44:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:43:25 -0500 (EST) From: JohnBerni Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Re: ECD Style To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <6fe621ec.34aaa060-AT- aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Ramsay in St Louis responding to Mike who asked a question about:=0A= =0A>>bring me five definitions for the word =93dance.=94 The instructions= asked=0Astudents to utilize a variety of sources including dictionaries,= =0Aencyclopedias, textbooks, other types > of literature about dance, or= even to=0Aattempt their own definitions.=0A=0A=0AMike's question:=0A=0AJ= ust curious, but did anyone ever ask "Why?"?<<=0A=0AJohn's response:=0ANo= , students in the United States tend to be like a Pakistani friend of min= e=0Awho misquoted Kipling: "Mine not to reason why, Mine but to do and d= ie."=0AAmerican students are trained to be like colonials. But remember,= there were=0Aalways some who "bounded beyond" the assignment.=0A