Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 06:13:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 09:12:54 -0500 (EST) From: jbeer-AT- juno.com (Jennifer Beer) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: 3/4 time--does it fit ECD? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <19970201.091208.7287.1.jbeer-AT- juno.com> English Country Dancing to waltz tunes seems to be growing in popularity by leaps and bounds -- probably because there are so many splendid tunes out there. At the risk of being pelted by e-tomatoes from all sides, I'd much rather *waltz* to these tunes than try to mesh 3/4 timing with the English Country Dance form. The fundamental problem is that the ECD walk step doesn't fit 3/4 music very well. Unless the tempo is unusually relaxed, dancers have to mince / hurry their steps to put one foot down on each beat. For me, not to be able to stretch out to a full walk step feels both constraining and, if the dance has no rest spots, physically tiring. I often end up dancing Swedish style -- stepping on beats 1 and 3. When I watch the dance floor, I see a lot of the dreaded long-short-short step (because it works!). Others who are doing the three-even-steps look like they're scurrying or doing a tight running step, which doesn't fit the flowing, unrushed mood of the music. And of course many folks simply move their feet with minimal reference to the musical beat. Fried's distinction between the flat 3/2 and the DOWN up up of 3/4, though greeted as heresy by dancers here in Philly, does help fit the step to the music better. If you do take full step, you often need much more space to execute the figures than in the usual longways set. (I'd guess because there are 3 steps per measure instead of the usual 2 -- sometimes an issue with 3/2 dances also.) The 3/4 dances that dance nicely are ones that break out of a tight set formation to give the dancers lots of room to swoop: Wood Duck, Sicilians like Waterfall and Margaret's when there's lots of space, Quite Carried Away, Miss dJ's come to mind. Now, don't get me wrong, I like to do an occasional waltz-time dance. This week we did Quite Carried Away with Bob Pasquarello doing his amazing solo piano improv and it was *exquisite*. We had oodles of space and good dancers. But I'd rather keep 3/4 dances for (literally) an occasional change of tempo at most once a night. 3/2 tunes, on the other hand, fit ECD figures and style of movement beautifully even when danced at the most thick honey tempo. Tunemasters, can we have some more scrumptious 3/2 compositions to tempt our choreographers?--there are so few 3/2 dances that are relatively easy to teach. --Jenny Beer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 15:15:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 18:15:33 -0500 From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- compuserve.com> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Heidenroslein To: ECD list Message-ID: <199702011815_MC2-10A5-C93B-AT- compuserve.com> Perhaps someone on the list can shed some light on this other aspect of Heidenroslein... Fried Herman, who boarded at Pat Shaw's house for a time years ago, and who worked with Pat, has always said that Pat never wanted that dance published. She was annoyed that it appeared in the Pat Shaw Dances series published posthumously, and gets more annoyed whenever the dance is scheduled on a program. Further inquiries as to the source of Pat's wishes and Fried's distaste brought forth the story (not from Fried) that Heidenroslein happened to be a favorite of Nazi troops during WW II, oftentimes and especially whistled or sung as they were leaving the scene of some atrocity just committed against "non-Aryans." Fried does not make a big deal of this (and we all know she is capable of making a very big deal of things), but we do not do Heidenroslein at Country Dancers of Westchester events in deference to her sensibilities and Pat Shaw's wishes as he communicated them to her. Does anyone know more about this? Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 07:43:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Other dance lists To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Harold Cheyney wrote: > At 01:41 PM 1/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Now my question: is there a similar list for contra dancers? Can anyone send > >info on that? (Either here or directly to my own email address). > > Ken, > I am not aware of a list but the newsgroup rec.folk-dancing is primarily > centered around contra dancing. And rec.folk-dancing is the same material as the "Folk Dancing" mailing list-- started there, as I recall. Will Linden wlinden-AT- panix.com http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/ Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 08:30:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 16:28:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri Davies Subject: Re: Waltz and Speed (Was "Elizabeth") To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199702021628.QAA20525-AT- paris.esoft.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.69) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII References: <199701311649.LAA05099-AT- mail2.panix.com> >>>>> "Sharon" == Sharon Green writes: Sharon> At 07:16 AM 1/31/97 -0800, you wrote: >> In 3/2 time each beat has equal emphasis. It is more smooth, with >> no up and down to it. Sharon> A note to add: Sharon> Fried often comments that you should the difference in Sharon> the dancers' movements--in the waltz, the bobbing up and down Sharon> of heads; in the 3/2 dances, the smoo-oo-ooth flow. Sharon> [Orthographic game-playing entirely mine; Fried would probably Sharon> be appalled.] Don't bet on *all* 3/2 dances being smooth. In most cases that is almost certainly a 20th century variation. There are dance scholars on this group who probably know a lot more about this than I do, but I'd drawe your attention to the the 3/2 hornpipe tunes common throughout Cheshire and Lancashire. I have seen it suggested that these grew out of the 3/2 dances that will be found in many of the dancing masters, and remained common in these regions after this time signature became less popular elsewhere. Furthermore, although there is no documentary evidence (that I am aware of) of the actual steps used, there is evidence that it must have been a fairly spectacular and difficult step since there is documentary evidence of people dancing it on tables in Alderly Edge and of advertising for a tavern where they invited you to go and see a black boy who was wondersouly dexterous at dancing the Cheshire Hornpipes. I don't have the exact quotations and references to hand at the moment, but I believe you will find them mentined in some work by Wilf Darlington, published by in one of the EFDSS publications in the last year or so. There are several groups around Lancashire and Cheshire doing a lot of work on this style of music and even some attempts at re-creating the step. The best onethat I have seen so far is tricky to get in the first place but once it is ingrained in your feet you can do most things to it -- I've used it for Cheshire Rounds and Hole in the Wall myself. It totally changes the feel of the dances! Some of the bands here put some real drive behind their 3/2 tunes -- as good if not better than using 6/8 for Drops of Brandy. Rhodri Davies ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 09:59:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 12:59:14 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Waltz and Speed (Was "Elizabeth") To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To all who are curious about 3/2 vs. 3/4 There is no inherent difference between them today; 3/2 was more common when the minim (half note) was the basic unit of beat (16th and 17th cs.), and 3/4 became common when the quarter note became the basic unit of beat (18th century). Both can be either slow or fast depending on the dance type. The differences you are really speaking of have to do with harmonic rhythm and the usual tempo for a given type of dance, as well as subtler aspects of the melody--that is, in a Viennese waltz the underlying harmonies change on the downbeat, the usual accompanying pattern is an oom-pa-pa, the usual tempo is fast (essentially one beat to the bar, triply divided). They swoop. English and American waltzes (also 19th c.) are slower, with three real beats per bar, and they don't swoop (they're also usually done backwards, turning left instead of right). You've been trying to take your cue from the notation, which isn't the source of the problem! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 10:12:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 13:08:58 -0500 (EST) From: Margaret Whaley <101454.633-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Last Night at the House To: ECD Message-ID: <970202180857_101454.633_IHP138-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> I also like slow dances - especially Colin's - and last night at Cecil Sharp House - we were treated to quite a few. - Colin was calling - so the dance was a must (Making the most of him before his departure across the "Pond") We did his version of Step Stately (5 couples) - so much nicer than the 3- couple version - and the much discussed "Elizabeth" - My partner accused me of Waltzing! - sorry, Colin - I couldn't help it! Then he called "Midwinter" - his latest. If you want a dance with a challenge - this is it!!!!!!!! It took us quite a while to get it - with comments from Colin like "Trust me - I wrote it!" but in the end we successed - well our set did!! (It was worth waiting for our cuppa to do it a second time!) Done to the carol "In a Bleak midwinter" - it's a 4-couples longways - although you wouldn't think so as the set starts in a single line - men facing down, ladies up - like Dargeson. Somehow, during one sequence of the dance, we turned ourselves into a conventional longways - danced with our partner - and then got back to a long line, - although this time the men were at the bottom facing up, and the ladies at the top facing down - we'd all progressed and were ready to start the 2nd sequence - - It's very, very clever!!! Thank you for a lovely evening, Colin Margaret Whaley Don't stop writing them when you get to th'other side. I'm sorry Gold for Brenda isn't one of my favourites, but you know how much I like Winter Memories!! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 16:34:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 00:35:08 +0000 From: Mitchell Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Waltz and Speed (Was "Elizabeth") To: "'ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU'" Message-ID: <01BC116A.554AC3E0-AT- hmitchell.tcp.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC116A.5553EBA0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC116A.5553EBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rhodri Davies said: Some of the bands here put some real drive behind their 3/2 tunes -- as good if not better than using 6/8 for Drops of Brandy. Well spotted Rhodri. The type of tunes that you mention like the Oldham = Rowling Hornpipe have a tendancy to be in 6/4 rather than 3/2 = particularly with the emphasis on the final two crotchets of the bar. = This fits well with the stepping that Wilf Darlington devised as LLRRLR = within each bar for example in the Red Lion Hornpipe. The two tunes that I mention are from John of the Greeny (or Greene) = Cheshire Way by John Offord. Some time ago I heard John Kirkpatrick = drawing a connection between the tune John of the Greeny Cheshire Way = and other tunes called Jack on (or of) the Green and wondering whether = John of the Green Cheshire Way should in fact be read "John of the = Green", "Cheshire Way". 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Stamler wrote: > Reading the translation: Is that about a rape? Or an encounter with a > femme fatale? Like most poetry, particularly that from masters of the form (Goethe does far more than qualify for this distinction; he contributes to the conceptual definition of a master of the form), there are many levels of interpretation not only possible, but quite conceivably intended. Different parts will be read and understood differently by different people, and all the different possible combinations of of meaning of the separate parts provide a vast range of possible interpretation. For example, we can interpret the rose's (or the maiden's, if we think of the rose representing a maiden) response "Ich steche dich, das du ewig denkst an mich, und ich wills nicht leiden." ("I'll prick you, so that you eternally think of me and I won't be sorry about it" in Emily's rendition.) If we imagine that it is a maiden trying to defend herself against a rape, we might imagine a defense of stabbing (if she has a weapon-shaped object at hand -- a stick, a nitting-needle, a hairpin) or possibly scratching or biting -- the rose uses what it has at hand -- and we might interpret "und ich wills nicht leiden" as "and I won't allow it" or "and I won't suffer that to happen to me". But then we have to wonder why "... half ihm doch kein Weh und Ach" ("...caused him nevertheless no pain nor discomfort" as a possible reading) and "muss es eben leiden" might be read as "(she)had to suffer it anyway." This level suggests a forcible rape, against which the defenses available were not sufficient. But could we not also think if the young, rather wild youth being captivated by the beauty of the maid, and, not having yet experienced tender love, is overcome by lust, and the defense that the rose-maid threatens with is that of Cupid's arrow (remember all of those Valentines with that arrow through the heart?), and though the boy is drawn to her by lust, she will capture him with love, which will never release him. Not that this view is without problems, too, but is there any reason that we should not toy with this idea in reading the poem? We might also do well to understand the social forces implicit in the society at the time of writing. Suppose the act of taking away a maiden's virginity were considered to be the equivalent to a promise to wed, at least if it is discovered, and her weapon is to reveal that he has done this (I have no idea if this makes any sense at all in the German society of the time and place of the poem's creation, but I do now that Goethe wrote very sensitively about the relationships of men and women in the context of their society, and it doesn't seem likely that he would have written something that trivialized rape. So there are my two Groschen. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 18:27:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 21:27:02 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: 3/4 time--does it fit ECD? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Jennifer Beer wrote: > > English Country Dancing to waltz tunes seems to be growing in popularity > by leaps and bounds -- probably because there are so many splendid tunes > out there. At the risk of being pelted by e-tomatoes from all sides, I'd > much rather *waltz* to these tunes than try to mesh 3/4 timing with the > English Country Dance form. > > The fundamental problem is that the ECD walk step doesn't fit 3/4 music > very well. Unless the tempo is unusually relaxed, dancers have to mince / > hurry their steps to put one foot down on each beat. For me, not to be > able to stretch out to a full walk step feels both constraining and, if > the dance has no rest spots, physically tiring. [much additional stuff snipped out] This afternoon at the Lovett Hall dance in Greenfield Village, Dearborn, MI (Glen Morningstar calling; the Michigan Ruffwater String Band playing) we did a dance by David Macemon that was set to a waltz, and while the figures were very smoothly integrated, at the tempo the band played it, it had exactly the character that Jenny describes for the part that was walked -- one was kept very busy taking tiny steps on time to the rhythm, but when it came to the final figure of waltz around the other couple with your partner, the band's tempo was very comfortable. While this event is basically a contra event, the dance itself would fit quite easily into a program of ECD without raising an eyebrow; whether a band used to doing English would have played it slower is hard to know. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 03:57:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:56:30 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: 3/4 - 3/2 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <32F5D26E.39BE-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny Beer wrote: > But I'd > rather keep 3/4 dances for (literally) an occasional change of tempo at > most once a night. I agree with her. One (or two at the most) waltz country dance in an evening's program is just fine. It offers a nice change of pace. > > 3/2 tunes, on the other hand, fit ECD figures and style of movement > beautifully even when danced at the most thick honey tempo. Tunemasters, > can we have some more scrumptious 3/2 compositions to tempt our > choreographers?--there are so few 3/2 dances that are relatively easy to > teach. > Again, I agree with Jenny. Few 3/2 dances are in the category for the less experienced dancer. "Cheshire Rounds", "Knives and Forks" are easy though. I can add that almost all 3/2 dances are longways. I miss 3/2 set dances! Philippe Callens ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 04:04:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:03:22 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: Re: 3/4 time--does it fit ECD? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <32F5D40A.BE3-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Eric Arnold wrote: > This afternoon at the Lovett Hall dance in Greenfield Village, Dearborn, > MI (Glen Morningstar calling; the Michigan Ruffwater String Band playing) > we did a dance by David Macemon that was set to a waltz. That dance must be Cynthia's Waltz. It is in Gems. Helene Cornelius introduced it to the Belgian dancers -- it was well received! Personally, I feel that this dance comes in the category of waltz country dances that do allow you to move well and not just take tiny steps. Movements are spacious in Cynthia's Waltz and the lovely tune askas for such long flowing movements, which are there (circle, cross heys, ...). It is of course all a matter of personal taste. Philippe Callens ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 05:23:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 08:23:08 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: FLOWERS (NO DANCE CONTENT) To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: re: heidenroeslein hmm. it's interesting to note mozart's song Das Veilchen, about a violet in the meadow (male), who sees a maiden lightly tripping through his meadow, and says, ah, if only i were the most beautiful flower of all, until the maiden plucked me and pressed me to her bosom. she unwittingly tromps him to death immediately after, and as he sinks and dies, he says to himself, but i have died through her. poor ole violet. ok, so it's a little different, particularly the form of violence. i never realized them old guys were so good at flower metaphor. sharon "had to sing them lieder in school" mckinley and not an official botanist for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 06:41:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 09:39:31 -0500 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: 3/4 time--does it fit ECD? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702031439.JAA01792-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> ----- Begin Included Message ----- Whether a band used to doing English would have played it slower is hard to know. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ----- End Included Message ----- In my experience, if I am working with a band that hasn't played for ECD much, they will often play the waltz too fast for an ECD. IMHO, if you think the waltz doesn't belong in ECD, then you are probably doing it too fast. Almost all of my favorite dances are in 3/4 or 3/2 time. Rich Jackson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 09:18:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:16:22 -0500 From: Don Bell Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Colin Hume's 'Midwinter' To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <32F61D66.CA9-AT- crisny.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <970202180857_101454.633_IHP138-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Margaret Whaley described a new dance 'Midwinter' by Colin Hume. It sounded like a wonderful, challenging dance I'd like to try, especially since I've always loved the tune "In the Bleak Mid-Winter". Is Colin planning on publishing it sometime soon? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 09:55:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 09:46:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: FLOWERS (NO DANCE CONTENT) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, SHARON MCKINLEY wrote: > ok, so it's a little different, particularly the form of > violence. i never realized them old guys were so good at flower > metaphor. Oh yeah, flower metaphor. In times past there was an entire symbolic vocabulary for flowers, called the "language of flowers", and this was well-known to both the intelligentsia and the common people. Hence in both Shakespeare and traditional songs, we hear elaborate symbolism wound around thyme, violets, roses, etc. etc. etc, which had specific and concrete meanings to the singers. (And by the way, this symbolic language was transnational; the same metaphors show up all over Europe and even in parts of India, perhaps indicating a Romany origin or transmission.) Back to "Heidenroslein"; the more I look at it, the more I think the poem's drama is couched in the flower-language. In this language, "rose" symbolizes Love itself, so the young (presumably naive) man is announcing he will seize Love, and Love announces it will prick him, etc. etc.. This rings more believably for me, given the familiarity of romantic poets with this well-known symbolic language, than any literal interpretation. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:01:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 19:04:29 +0100 From: Martin.Sheffield-AT- wanadoo.fr (Martin Sheffield) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Heidenroeslein To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "... half ihm doch kein Weh und Ach" My school memories tell me this means: It was no use his moaning and groaning (ie: pleading with her), he just had to put up with it (her rejection). For me, it was just the simple account of unrequited love. When I was at school, rape was a tabou subject, but I don't think that was the reason why it wasn't mentioned in connection with this poem. I wonder if, today, when nothing is tabou, the interpretation of "ich steche dich" would be "(if you take me) I'll give you AIDS" ...? And moaning and groaning did him no good -- once he'd caught it, he just had to put up with it. Anderthalb Groschen. Yours, Martin, Grenoble, France. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:05:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:04:02 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Colin Hume's 'Midwinter' To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It appears that again we have the situation of more than one new dance to a particular tune, with Colin's "Midwinter" to the Holst carol "In the Bleak Midwinter", which was also the tune of choice and, I believe, the inspiration for Robin Hayden's dance by the same name as the carol, created, I think, during the bleak midwinter a year ago, and possibly in the publication queue for CDSS News. This is bound to happen, as the interest in writing new dances increases, and while not everybody who does ECD feels that just one dance should be associated with a particular tune (note that the other way around, i.e. more than one tune to a dance, is somewhat more acceptable by many), some people feel rather strongly that it is important to keep the association of particular moves with a certain tune firmly in place in the interests of minimizing confusion and as an aid to dance memory, and it seems to me that they have a point worth considering. Recently there has been some discussion about this on this list with respect to different dances to "Jump at the Sun" and "Early One Morning". In one case, I understand, a new dance from Britain, "Winter Solstice", originally done on this side of the Puddle to "Early One Morning" (which already had two fine dances recently composed to it on opposite sides of said Puddle, one by Scott Higgs and one, I believe, by Ernst van Braekel (sp?)), has had a new tune created especially for it, and that seels like a very appropriate way to deal with this, if it is really an issue that needs to be dealt with. It seems likely that one dance will tend to dominate over the other in a way that seems a bit unfair to the one not selected, particularly if it is not the fault of the dance itself that it has not become widely known before another one comes along to displace it. On the other hand, people are certainly free to write dances to whatever tunes inspire them, and of course it is impossible to know of all of the newly-created dances soon enough to prevent people from using the same tune even if they tried to avoid doing this. While there may be an appropriate selection process at work in that dancers will prefer one dance to another, and that preference will have a lot to do with which dance ultimately gets to claim the disputed tune, other factors which have very little to do with the merits of the dances themselves will also influence this choice. I'm interested in knowing what others think about this. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:35:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:49:14 -0800 (PST) From: bestockp-AT- oz.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: 3/4 - 3/2 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Again, I agree with Jenny. Few 3/2 dances are in the category for the >less experienced dancer. "Cheshire Rounds", "Knives and Forks" are easy >though. I can add that almost all 3/2 dances are longways. I miss 3/2 >set dances! > > >Philippe Callens "St Margaret's Hill" and "The Old Mill" are gorgeous 3 couple set dances in 3/2. Gary Rudman's "A New Beginning" is a 3 couple set dance which is actually in 3/4 but the tune (by Purcell) was written as a minuet, and if its played as such, the dance doesn't turn into a waltz. " The King's Maggot" and "Orleans Baffled", which are 3/2 triple minors can be danced as 3 couple sets very nicely. Enjoy! Vicky ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:46:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:46:01 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: 3/4 - 3/2 To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IEZ5OP3X56BJX9DH-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Vicky Bestock wrote -- >> >>Again, I agree with Jenny. Few 3/2 dances are in the category for the >>less experienced dancer. "Cheshire Rounds", "Knives and Forks" are easy >>though. I can add that almost all 3/2 dances are longways. I miss 3/2 >>set dances! >> >> >>Philippe Callens >"St Margaret's Hill" and "The Old Mill" are gorgeous 3 couple set dances >in 3/2. Gary Rudman's "A New Beginning" is a 3 couple set dance which is >actually in 3/4 but the tune (by Purcell) was written as a minuet, and if >its played as such, the dance doesn't turn into a waltz. " The King's >Maggot" and "Orleans Baffled", which are 3/2 triple minors can be danced as >3 couple sets very nicely. Enjoy! >Vicky I agree with Vicky that "St. Margaret's Hill" and "The Old Mill" are gorgeous 3-couple set dances, and the former works pretty well for a group with many beginners in it, although it helps to have folks who are sure about the difference between right and left. I think "Old Mill" is a bit more challenging, with some unusual figures, so I'd agree with Philippe that it's not for 'less-experienced dancers'. I'll look up "A New Beginning," which I think I recollect seeing in 'Sum Further Calculated Figures.' I called Gary Roodman's "Wibsey Roundabout" for the first time last Wednesday, incidentally, and was pleased to observe what a well-made dance it is. I didn't find it obvious on the page, but in execution it's quite flowy, with each figure leaving the dancer in little doubt about where to go next. (It also looked as though it would be fun to watch from above. As a bonus, the dancers seemed to like it too.) Vicky, is "The King's Maggot" in print anywhere I'm likely to find it? I don't think I've ever even heard of it. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:40:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:39:23 -0500 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: One Dance per Tune or One Tune per Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702031939.OAA01858-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Eric Arnold expressed concern over having more than one dance written for a given tune. There is an extensive history of this sort of thing. I am not a dance historian, but I have seen at least five versions of the dance "Excuse Me", which I understand was a popular tune in the 1700's. Look at the tune Lilliburlero, ECDs, Morris dances, Longsword dances, etc., etc. I agree with the basic concept of One Tune per Dance, although I am not going to stop musicians from ocassionaly trying out a different tune. In an ideal world, I suppose One Dance per Tune is probably preferable, but I wouldn't want to stifle the creativity of a dance composer by saying, "Sorry, that tune is taken." Rich "I claim Jump at the Sun for my dance" Jackson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:42:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:42:23 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: goals for newish ECD group To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702031942.NAA12212-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> I'm involved in running an ECD group in Champaign, IL. We've been more or less formally organized for about 1 1/2 years now. Our initial goals were pretty clear cut; find a space to dance in, set a schedule and promote the dances, organise the loose collection of musicians into a band, find rehearsal space, work on building a repetoire of basic dances and hold a Ball at the end of the season. This has worked out well and now we have a core group of dancers (not as big as I'd like, but OK), a band going along very well, monthly dances scheduled with a few extra thrown in, and we've held two Christmas Ball and a Playford Ball. My question is, what sort of short- and long-term goals should be have now? Obviously we want to maintain what we have and build our attendance, but what other things might we be working on? What should we keep in mind when setting up the programs for future dances? Any advice on directions to take or goals to strive for? Thanks for any thoughts or tips. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:48:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:46:31 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Heidenroeslein To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Martin Sheffield wrote: > "... half ihm doch kein Weh und Ach" > > My school memories tell me this means: > It was no use his moaning and groaning (ie: pleading with her), he just had > to put up with it (her rejection). Ah, Martin, that makes more sense than my reading. I had assumed that the following line, "(subject) muss es eben leiden" kept the same subject as the beginning of the poetical "sentence", namely, Roeslein. With your reading, however, I find that I have to put (subject) = boy, and that hadn't occured to me before, partly because I thought it was saying that the rose had to suffer in spite of her determination not to. > For me, it was just the simple account of unrequited love. > > When I was at school, rape was a tabou subject, but I don't think that was > the reason why it wasn't mentioned in connection with this poem. That would certainly be more in character with other works by the esteemed author. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:51:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:51:27 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702031951.NAA17137-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to get contra dancers to give ECD a try? While there is cross-over between contra and English it seems to me that there are many contra dancers (locally at least) who assume they won't like ECD and thus are unwilling to try it. I always feel if they'd try it they'd like it, but how to get them to try it? Any suggestions on aspects of ECD we can highlight to entice contra dancers to come to the English dance? Later this month our local ECD band (The Flatland Consort) will be playing at the local contra dance. I'll be calling and I'd like to do a couple of English dances during the evening. Does anyone have any suggestions for dances which will show the contra dancers just how enjoyable ECD is? I'm thinking of longways, duple minor dances which are very smooth and flowing. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:05:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:04:32 -0400 From: howardm-AT- mitre.org (Howard A. Markham) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Colin Hume's 'Midwinter' To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9702032004.AA32377-AT- mail90.mitre.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Eric Arnold's comments about more than one dance for a tune: >It appears that again we have the situation of more than one new dance to >a particular tune, with Colin's "Midwinter" to the Holst carol "In the >Bleak Midwinter", which was also the tune of choice and, I believe, the >inspiration for Robin Hayden's dance by the same name as the carol, >created, I think, during the bleak midwinter a year ago, and possibly in >the publication queue for CDSS News. > >This is bound to happen, as the interest in writing new dances increases, >and while not everybody who does ECD feels that just one dance should be >associated with a particular tune (note that the other way around, i.e. >more than one tune to a dance, is somewhat more acceptable by many), some >people feel rather strongly that it is important to keep the association >of particular moves with a certain tune firmly in place in the interests >of minimizing confusion and as an aid to dance memory, and it seems to me >that they have a point worth considering. It seems to me that the most satisfying dances are those that fit the tune so closely that you cannot imagine doing them to another tune, nor another dance to the tune. At the same time, I can more easily imagine the creation of another dance that fits the tune as well as the first and is as pleasing for its dance qualities than I can imagine finding another tune that fits either of the dances as well and is as good a tune. I have heard various attempts at introducing alternate tunes for familiar dances, but have never heard one that satisfied (of course there were other dancers who didn't mind or perhaps thought it did succeed). However, going the other direction (new dance to old tune with good dance) seems to have been carried off nicely in a number of cases, my favorite probably being Colin Hume's Mayfair. This topic may be analogous to writing songs or operas--is it better to find a good text and write a tune to it, or write a tune and fit some words to it? As I recall, there have been good composers and lyricists on both sides, just as some people find geometry easier, some algebra (I don't propose that we carry this analogy further). > >Recently there has been some discussion about this on this list with >respect to different dances to "Jump at the Sun" and "Early One Morning". >In one case, I understand, a new dance from Britain, "Winter Solstice", >originally done on this side of the Puddle to "Early One Morning" (which >already had two fine dances recently composed to it on opposite sides of >said Puddle, one by Scott Higgs and one, I believe, by Ernst van Braekel >(sp?)), has had a new tune created especially for it, and that seels like >a very appropriate way to deal with this, if it is really an issue that >needs to be dealt with. In principle I would be happy to have two good dances to Early One Morning or any other good tune. In fact, I have only done Scott's, which I like immensely. I suspect that in most cases of multiple dances one would emerge as the preferred one. Also, if there were very much of this, it would change the complexion of ECD as we have known it over the years, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that. But if it were to happen, I would find that preferrable to the situation that we have in contra and Scottish, where "any good jig" is a sufficient indication of tune. Of course, in SCD, there is usually a "name" tune for a dance, and often it fits the dance better than other tunes. In contra dancing, there are usually a number of tunes that fit a dance well, although some of the older dances do have a "name" tune that seems particularly right. > >It seems likely that one dance will tend to dominate over the other in a >way that seems a bit unfair to the one not selected, particularly if it is >not the fault of the dance itself that it has not become widely known >before another one comes along to displace it. On the other hand, people >are certainly free to write dances to whatever tunes inspire them, and of >course it is impossible to know of all of the newly-created dances soon >enough to prevent people from using the same tune even if they tried to >avoid doing this. While there may be an appropriate selection process at >work in that dancers will prefer one dance to another, and that preference >will have a lot to do with which dance ultimately gets to claim the >disputed tune, other factors which have very little to do with the merits >of the dances themselves will also influence this choice. I am optimistic that over time the selection process will favor the most meritorious dances by and large. In the near term, such factors as publisher, callers and musicians the writer knows, whether the writer is a caller who serves on camp staffs, etc can have a larger effect than the intrinsic worth of the dance. Another aspect is that, after every dance has had a fair exposure of its qualities, different preferences may develop in different communities or countries. For example, this seems especially likely between American and English dancers, where distinctive ECD esthetics seem to be at work. > >I'm interested in knowing what others think about this. > >Eric Arnold > Ann Arbor Howard Howard A. Markham, Mail Stop W432, The MITRE Corporation. (703) 883-5731 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:13:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:13:22 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Thanks to Alan To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702032013.PAA14105-AT- mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to thank Alan for all he's done for us in making the ECD list happen. Alan, I really love this--it feels as if all the conversations that you mean to have while you're at dance camp but that you seldom have time for are actually happening, and, as I sit here churning out manuscripts for my publisher, it's a joy to take a moment out for a joke from Gene Murrow, or a digression from Sharon McKinley, or an erudite note from Julia Sutton. Much fun! Many thanks, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:13:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:13:31 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IEZ8O3FR9UBJWBF7-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- Actually, I'd been meaning to enquire whether contra/english antipathy was as strong elsewhere as it sometimes seems to be in California. [Actually, most of the BACDS contra-dance callers do English dancing and there isn't any institutional problem, but there are some number of contra dancers who actively discourage people from checking out English dances. Every so often a new english dancer says something like "I don't know why they said this wasn't fun!" In Southern California, I am given to understand, the problem is considerably worse, and some contra callers decline to announce local English dances, although this is not necessarily overtly because they *are* English dances.] Anyway, I don't yet have a good answer for Jonathan's general question of how to entice contradancers to try out English dancing, and would like to hear some, but I have a couple of ideas for English dances to call at a contra dance. 1) "Joy of motion" kinds of dances, which is what I think Jonathan was asking for. "Female Saylor" "Jack's Health" "Dublin Bay" "Knole Park" "Young Widow" [Lots of balances] 2) Another approach would be to do something *really* different, like a dance that isn't a jig or reel. Avoid the sissy, but something dreamy like "Well Hall" "Wood Duck" "Northdown Waltz" "Duke of Kent's Waltz" might go okay. 3) You could even do a Playford-style dance if it didn't take too much teaching, and especially if it had a killer tune. If the Flatland Consort can really punch it, I'd suggest Ashford Anniversary (with side-to-side siding; quicker to teach). I speak from an entire absence of experience here. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:33:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:31:24 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One way to try to sell ECD to contra dancers would be to try to convince them that they will have more fun doing contras (because they will probably become better dancers, not because, like hitting your head against the wall, it feels so good when you stop). Particularly the more difficult contras yeild their charms more readily to contradancers with experience doing ECD, and when you get a whole bunch of ECDers doing contra, boy, does it really flow! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:49:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 16:48:48 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702032148.QAA06440-AT- watt.uwaterloo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, I'd been meaning to enquire whether contra/english antipathy > was as strong elsewhere as it sometimes seems to be in California. When I first saw this I was thinking of apathy. Around here contra dancing is about the biggest thing (if you don't include C&W line "dancing"; and IFD ; ie non-social dances). EC dancing is pretty insignif. with one ball/year. London actually has a "contra" dance that looks, smells and feels like EC! But don't tell anyone that :) I'll take a guess. EC dancing is not contra if you define EC dances as being the style of dance which has verseii and corii; as opposed to progressive contra dances with a trivial 32 bar pattern. I used the word trival to light a few sparks. Some people like to flirt when the dance (fancy that!) and tossing them into 3 couple minor dances with couples 2 and 3 alternating roles pretty well kills all of that. Some people like complexity in dances and other like simpler dances for the joy of interacting with people. By far one of the biggest factors up here is how much fun the people are. Canned music and stuck up dancers repel people. Having people in the same age range in an attraction (as much as I love square dancing; I'm not hot on doing it with people who are on average 35 years older than myself). In certain places (Ann Arbor, Boston, ...) there are so many forms of dance that people can get their fill with just one or two types. In other areas (like up here) I switch between Irish, contra, square, Playford (EC), Vintage and a smattering of ballroom/Scottish because I want to go out and dance. My limitation is if I'm willing to spend more time driving than dancing (ie very few dances are within a 1 hour drive). > , but there are some number of contra dancers who actively > discourage people from checking out English dances. I certainly hope that people don't go that far. But they may do it for the reasons above. I will tell people about certain dances places and my experience with them; but not in a such a way as to discourage them from at least going and verifying my experience. One C&W line "dancer" that I know was really proud of having commited to memory in excess of 60 dances. It seems to me that the good contra dancers never really learn any dances because we don't do the same ones very often. EC dances can be called but most of the time I've seen them taught and later danced at a ball. Any calling would be in the order of "mens hay", "cross-over hay" or sort of a macro command that covers a fairly large number of steps. The only analog I can think of in contra is when they call contra corners. Irish dancing is a curiousity because in the set dances one set of couples is inactive for quite a while. That means that the active couple usually has to know a lot more than 32 bars of music. Also set dances with 5 and 6 versii are pretty common. Whenever they teach them at a Ceili they usually teach one verse at a time and they never attempt to let the dancers do 2 in a row. Different people like different things. I can't see EC and contra as the same type of dance other than that they are "walked". Around here the one nice thing about the rare EC/Playford dances is that they are typically done with a workshop followed by a costume ball. The costume aspect tends to attract a different type of dancer yet again :) - Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:41:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 16:43:32 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Roby Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Other dance lists To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9702032243.AA13724-AT- conley.math.wisc.edu> > And rec.folk-dancing is the same material as the "Folk Dancing" mailing > list-- started there, as I recall. This was true, but the FDML no longer exists (as of last summer). Terry Wood no longer has time to publish it, so the only access to that information is the the newsgroup. Tom ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:57:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:53:39 -0500 (EST) From: Margaret Whaley <101454.633-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: English Folk Dance Band Tour To: ECD Message-ID: <970203225338_101454.633_IHP94-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Blue Mountain Band - a well known English Folk Dance Band is going over to the States in mid July, for a festival in Salt Lake City. They would very much like an opportunity to play for some events after the festival, towards the end of July - before they return to England - to finish off their tour. They specialise in Playford and English styles, but are quite adept at American Squares and Contras. - I can thoroughly recommend them ( They are actually playing for our club's weekend in May) Their leader is Rick Smith - and he can be contacted as follows: Phone No: +44 01844 352468 Address: 51 Elderdene Chinnor Oxon OX9 4EJ England Or if you would like to contact me through e-mail: margaret-AT- mdwhaley.demon.co.uk I will pass your message on. Thanks Margaret Whaley Oxfordshire ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:39:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:58:07 -0500 From: "m.a.j. mckenna" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702032338.SAA91420-AT- mule0.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:31 PM 2/3/97 -0500, eric arnold wrote: >One way to try to sell ECD to contra dancers would be to try to convince >them that they will have more fun doing contras (because they will >probably become better dancers ...) > when you get a whole bunch of ECDers doing >contra, boy, does it really flow! > overheard at an Atlanta ECD mtg a year ago, said by a longtime contra dancer/ECD newcomer to one of the Atlanta callers: "all contra dancers should learn English; this really teaches you to count!" shortly afterward, still mulling over the implication that some dancers don't count, i went to the contra-ECD-and-some-squares Brasstown Spring Weekend; it was the first time i'd been to a dance where at least half the room had no ECD exposure. the difference really *was* marked - they'd get to the end of a move beats before the end of a phrase and then look puzzled that there was nothing to do, because contra conditioned them to expect a swing there. a couple other folks in attendance (ECD dancers with years more contra experience than me) suggested that contra rewards rushing, because the faster you get there the more time you have to swing ("Swing," one guy declared, "is dessert."). but if that's so, that makes ECD a tough sell to at least some primarily-contra dancers, because ECD so much rewards careful matching of the movement to the phrase. i wonder how one explains that, or if one tries. (similarly for the person who's attracted to contra for the chance to spend an evening putting their arms around many different members of the gender-of-their-choice; the partnering-by-the-eyes that makes ECD so subtle and entrancing may be a tough sell to them also.) puzzled, but not enough to stop me wittering, maryn mck. atlanta ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:53:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:56:48 -0500 From: elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com (E.L.Bogue) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ideas for attracting contra dancers to English 1) Give them English dances which have some relatively obvious connection to contra so that they are not totally in a new context. Longways dances that go at a quickish pace are good. One which are quite slow (and so have an entirely foreign mood), or don't progress are hard for contra dancers to understand at first. 2) Give them dances which have something to chew on in the music and in the dance. Indian Queen may be the easiest dance around, but to a contra person, it's just a slow-moving contra without the swing and a dippy tune. Something like Jack's Health, equally easy, gives them a bit more musical feel. Something which has the flow of a good contra dance (Jim Kitch's Lovers Knot) or lots of drive and two hand turns (Colliers Daughter) is good for this. 3) When you do give them a dance for small sets, it's nice to have it be a progressive one (Kelsterne Gardens, Fandango) so that all get a chance to try it, and they can have a second shot at getting it right. 4) BE SURE to teach & show the interactions: how you approach one person but turn another, or the approach-avoidance conflict between partners, or whatever. Contra dancers seem to have an allergy to being told "this is the right style" but can be persuaded to use good style when it's explained as the easiest way to follow this interesting plot line. 5) MOST IMPORTANT: Let your own enthusiasm for ECD break out, and don't teach with the assumption that many of them will dislike it. I once heard a caller say, "You may have disliked English is the past, but let's give it another try." This amounted to saying, "I've picked something you will probably dislike; bear with me." If you can instead say, "This is a different kind of dancing that gives you a chance for a completely wonderful experience of a kind you've never had contra dancing" it's a totally different approach. Good luck Jonathan! I'm rooting for you. Erna-Lynne ----------------------------------------------- "Let us be what we are, and let us be it WELL." -- Francis deSales ----------------------------------------------- Erna-Lynne Bogue / elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com (I read mail at ebogue-AT- umich.edu most often) ----------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:53:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:56:53 -0500 From: elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com (E.L.Bogue) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dance Composition To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Following are some sections of the handout I used for a dance composition workshop last weekend. The workshop focused on composing contra dances, so these notes assume a duple minor set, and ignore the broader range of formation, meter, and style that we are blessed with in English dance. However, I think many of them apply ... I'd be interested to hear what others would add to (or subtract from or differ from) in this quickie listing of opinions and methods. ----------------------------------------- TO MAKE DANCE ENJOYABLE 1) Transitions between figures should not be awkward, but may be challenging. 2) At least one nice moment or interesting figure to focus on; not too many. 3) End of dance flows well into beginning. 4) All of a figure usually occurs within the same phrase or sub-phrase, not crossing from one phrase to the next. PLOT LINE 1) May focus on partner or others. 2) May "lose and find" or hang on to partner. 3) May travel around the set or stay with original foursome. 4) May be choreographed with a particular / local dance style in mind. MATTERS OF TASTE 1) Even (actives & inactive roles quite similar) or uneven (actives & inactives differ a lot) 2) Men or Women take lead in many figures or have solo role 3) Dance is physically demanding or relaxed 4) Dance gives time to correct errors (forgiving) or requires much accuracy. "Take out ratio" is number of couples that can break down when one couples makes an error. COMPOSITION PRACTICES / METHODS 1) Select a single move or figure that you like. Decide who gets to execute it. Provide good lead in and exit from that figure. 2) Select mood. Imagine figures for that mood. Try combinations of those figures. 3) Walk a figure with music playing. Consider: what could I do next? Try alternatives. 4) Consider plot line. What moves give that plot? THEN ADD FIGURES TO FILL OUT DANCE LENGTH, CHECK PROGRESSION. TWEAKING / EDITING 1) Decide best place in sequence for start, end. 2) Dance all 4 roles to check for awkward spots. 3) Consider figures with similar movement but different moods (dosido / gypsy? circle / star) 4) Does dance have a signature that makes it interesting? Does it feel like glossary? ----------------------------------------------- "Let us be what we are, and let us be it WELL." -- Francis deSales ----------------------------------------------- Erna-Lynne Bogue / elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com (I read mail at ebogue-AT- umich.edu most often) ----------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:13:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:29:55 +0000 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <855009043.523451.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> > Different people like different things. I can't see EC and contra as > the same type of dance other than that they are "walked". This whole thread interests me because it's a discussion that just wouldn't happen in England. We make much less of a distinction between Playford (the term we use to refer to English Country Dance) and American contras and traditional style squares. When I'm booked for a Saturday night club dance I will usually be asked to present a mixed programme - some Playford, some contras, some squares, some traditional English dances (although not so many of them, people really don't like to step these days). With the possible exception of patter and singing squares I use I very similar set of calling / teaching techniques for all of them. Whilst it's quite possible to dance nothing but Playford over here, and probably just about possible to do nothing but contras or squares it's pretty rare - there's much less of a split between Playford and contra (there is however a split between Playford / contra and ceilidh dancers but that's another thread). I feel that there are advantages and disadvantages to this lack of a split. I like dancing and calling a mixture of styles - I get to pick the 'best' (in my opinion) dances from each style. There are times when I'm worried that we are in danger of just creating a mid atlantic 'mush' of American and English dances and music without a clear distinction between each style. I have no good conclusions to draw from any of this, it's just a few random late night thoughts. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:46:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:47:33 -0500 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Some people like to flirt >when the dance (fancy that!) and tossing them into 3 couple minor dances >with couples 2 and 3 alternating roles pretty well kills all of that. hmmmmmmm since when has that ever been a problem? Ahem - but seriously..on the topic at hand.... I've run into a similar attitude to that being discussed. Most of it on the contra side stems from the misconception that English dance is PRISSY. I would love sometime to go back in time to where people GOT this idea, but since it seemed for awhile to be a widely held feeling, I have to assume it did not fall from the sky, but came from some demonstration somewhere, sometime. Unfortunately, this prissiness appears from time to time among contra dancers who have tried and apparently liked ECD. This is ECD, so this must be how it's done! The mincing and prissy styling persists despite good role models, teaching, you name it. They of course take this back to their contra communities and even demonstrate it publicly. Now what to do? sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Without a really strong leadership to squash these strange stylings, this just perpetuates the myths I hear about ECD from others. Flame away if you like, only reporting what I've seen, heard and experienced. Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:40:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:26:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Heidenroeslein To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Martin Sheffield wrote: > I wonder if, today, when nothing is tabou, the interpretation of "ich > steche dich" would be > "(if you take me) I'll give you AIDS" ...? > And moaning and groaning did him no good -- once he'd caught it, he just > had to put up with it. Of course, in the time this poem was written, syphilis affected people and society very much the way AIDS does now; it was incurable, sexually transmitted, and its progress was terrifying. Some serious poetry and at least one classic folk song family ("St. James' Hospital") came from the plague of syphilis that began c. 1500 and continued, with ebbs and surges, until the advent of chemotherapy in the early 1900s. In looking at this poem I wondered about that possibility; I don't *think* so, but it's not impossible. In reading things written in that era, one must keep alert for the possibility of allegorical references to disease, especially the unmentionable diseases, which included not only STDs but also, sometimes, tuberculosis. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:56:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Jonathan: My experience has been that contra-heads, like most people, are most attracted by the dances that aren't really that different from what they already know and are used to. I think the contra-dancers' stereotype of English dance is that it's all very slow, gliding and stodgy, no energy, flirtation or fun involved. That stereotype is what we're fighting, at least locally, and we've had the best success at mixed dances (i.e., the Folkfire benefits which involve a dozen or more dance groups) by programming two energetic dances and one slower one, the latter usually done last. It's still an uphill struggle, though. One thing that has helped: we *don't* do costumed demonstration dances at contra-dances anymore. That fed the stereotype, and also gave people the idea that we were entirely performance- and costume-oriented, rather than oriented toward the weekly open participatory dances. We have a performing group, although it hasn't done too much in the last year, but our main focus is now the dances (and the spring Ball and winter Grand Dance). My tuppence' worth. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 03:48:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 06:48:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: OLD TUNES, NEW DANCES To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: re: different dances to the same tunes: the point has been raised tha most ECD dances have a standard tune, and most tunes serve but one dance. any theories as to why this is the case, when your average contra has many possibilities (contras DO run longer, and it would bore the musicians to tears. that's MY personal theory. scottish country dances aren't longer, though, and the same holds true there)? musicians may have some insight into this. thanks. sharon "what, ME digress??" mckinley, and not an official digression for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 04:23:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:22:43 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: Re: 3/4 - 3/2 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <32F72A13.1E3-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <01IEZ5OP3X56BJX9DH-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Vicky and Allan wrote: > I agree with Vicky that "St. Margaret's Hill" and "The Old Mill" are gorgeous > 3-couple set dances, and the former works pretty well for a group with many > beginners in it, although it helps to have folks who are sure about the > difference between right and left. Thanks for the suggestion. You may not believe this, but I find St. Margaret's Hill very uninteresting. It has, in my opinion, a bad story line and even its wonderful tune doesn't make this dance acceptable to me. > Vicky, is "The King's Maggot" in print anywhere I'm likely to find it? I don't > think I've ever even heard of it. The King's Maggot is in Frank Van Cleef's "24 dances from the Playford editions" and also in the booklet that comes with the tape "All Alive" Philippe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 04:26:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:26:08 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: Excuse Me To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <32F72AE0.5B7C-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <199702031939.OAA01858-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Rich Jackson wrote: > I have > seen at least five versions of the dance "Excuse Me", which > I understand was a popular tune in the 1700's. Good you mention "Excuse Me"! I am actually looking for several versions of that dance. Rich, can you mention your sources? I have the Neal version; and Gary Roodman wrote a new dance to it, too. Philippe Callens ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 04:40:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:40:44 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: Excuse Me To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <32F72E4C.2282-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich Jackson mentions that there are at least five different versions of "Excuse Me". That interests me. I have the Neal version; and Gary Roodman wrote a new dance to it, too. Who knows more? Philippe Callens ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 04:41:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:41:33 +0100 From: Philippe Callens Subject: King's maggot To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <32F72E7D.336A-AT- uia.ua.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The King's Maggot is in Frank Van Cleef's "24 dances from the Playford editions" and also in the booklet that comes with the tape "All Alive" Philippe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:32:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:32:10 -0500 (EST) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970204082823.392f0d86-AT- pop.service.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:51 PM 2/3/97 -0600, you wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to get contra dancers to give ECD a >try? ...........snip......... Johnathan I think your idea of introducing a couple of ECD dances at a contra dance is the right approach. I don't know what the majority of contra dancers here think of ECD but conversely almost all of the ECD dancers around here are also contra dancers. The ones that aren't contra dancers do some other folk dancing like Scottish, International, etc. I have always thought of ECD and Contra as being so similar but of different flavor that they could complement each other if done as part of the same evening, just like a waltz complements contra dances by providing a change of pace. I would choose a dance that is smooth and flowing like Well Hall and one that is especially energetic with lots of partner interaction such as two hand turns, siding, etc. I can't think of an example. Harold, Columbus Ohio ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:49:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:49:20 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: King's maggot To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702041549.KAA17320-AT- panix4.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:41 PM 2/4/97 +0100, Philippe Callens wrote: >The King's Maggot is in Frank Van Cleef's "24 dances from the Playford >editions" and also in the booklet that comes with the tape "All Alive" King's Maggot [duple minor version of original triple minor] is in both the "All Alive" booklet and in Fried Herman's "Potter's Porch,"* where Fried provides a transcript of the original wording from Walsh. Van Cleef presents the dance as a 3-couple set, and gives a transcription of the original as well. *As Brad would say, available through the CDSS store. :-) --Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:00:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:59:20 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Cynthia's Waltz? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Philippe Callens wrote: > Eric Arnold wrote: > > > This afternoon at the Lovett Hall dance in Greenfield Village, Dearborn, > > MI (Glen Morningstar calling; the Michigan Ruffwater String Band playing) > > we did a dance by David Macemon that was set to a waltz. > > > That dance must be Cynthia's Waltz. It is in Gems. Helene Cornelius > introduced it to the Belgian dancers -- it was well received! > Personally, I feel that this dance comes in the category of waltz > country dances that do allow you to move well and not just take tiny > steps. Movements are spacious in Cynthia's Waltz and the lovely tune > askas for such long flowing movements, which are there (circle, cross > heys, ...). > > It is of course all a matter of personal taste. > > > Philippe Callens > This one wasn't Cynthia's Waltz -- it was similarly named, but another name was involved, and it was a duple minor, 1st couple improper longways set. The moves, as I recall them, were: Rh across once around, loop left into L shoulder gypsy with partner once and a half. Lh across once around, loop right into R shoulder gypsy with partner once and a half. Taking ballroom position with partner, waltz around other couple counterclockwise, first couple ending on (proper) men's side. (final figure which escapes me at the moment to finish progression and use up 8 bars of music) This should fit to a 32-bar waltz tune. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:05:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:05:09 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dance Composition To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702041605.KAA10011-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> As one who attended the workshop I think it was very informative and worthwhile. I've written a handful of dances, a couple of which I think are good and I'm sure the workshop will help me with future endeavors. We ended up writing 3 dances as a group during the hour. One still needs work to be a usable dance, but the other two are quite nice. I intend to use them when calling in the future under the names "Kristi's Dance" (the first one we worked on) and "Dance By Committee" (the 3rd dance we did). Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:23:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:23:26 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702041623.KAA19590-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> At the contra-English dance weekend in Ann Arbor this past weekend there were many non-English dancers giving ECD a try (or so it seemed to me). The dances that Scott Higgs called at the English dance on Friday, the ECD workshop Saturday and at the contra dance Saturday night seemed to go over very well with the crowd. I think one common denominator was that the dances flowed well. As a long-time contra dancer, I know how important this is to a good dance and have many times heard contra dancers say how much they liked a dance because of the way it flows. I've decided to use "Juice of Barley" and "Geud Man of Ballangigh" as the English dances at the contra dance later this month. I think these meet the requirments set forth by Erna-Lynne. Also since our local ECD group has done GMOB before this is just one new tune for the band to work on. Thanks for all the suggestions. When the discussion dies down, I'll try to put together a synopsis of the ideas. Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:31:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:31:05 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Heidenroeslein (fwd) To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (This seems to have bounced somewhere along the way, so I'm sending it again. My apologies if you get two copies. - Eric) On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Martin Sheffield wrote: > "... half ihm doch kein Weh und Ach" > > My school memories tell me this means: > It was no use his moaning and groaning (ie: pleading with her), he just had > to put up with it (her rejection). Ah, Martin, that makes more sense than my reading. I had assumed that the following line, "(subject) muss es eben leiden" kept the same subject as the beginning of the poetical "sentence", namely, Roeslein. With your reading, however, I find that I have to put (subject) = boy, and that hadn't occured to me before, partly because I thought it was saying that the rose had to suffer in spite of her determination not to. > For me, it was just the simple account of unrequited love. > > When I was at school, rape was a tabou subject, but I don't think that was > the reason why it wasn't mentioned in connection with this poem. That would certainly be more in character with other works by the esteemed author. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:37:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:37:16 -0500 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Reply to: RE>enticing contra dancers -------------------------------------- Later this month our local ECD band (The Flatland Consort) will be playing at the local contra dance. I'll be calling and I'd like to do a couple of English dances during the evening. Does anyone have any suggestions for dances which will show the contra dancers just how enjoyable ECD is? I'm thinking of longways, duple minor dances which are very smooth and flowing. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- I suggest giving 'em Mad Robin. It's fairly simple and for those who are into contra because of the opportunity to flirt, it's a gold mine. Explain the shuttle figure as "eye contact as in a gypsy, but going up and down the set instead of around each other." I'd also think of Knolle Park, because it's sooo much fun walking down the middle of the set all dignified and then coming back up skipping like a kid. Just my suggestions. In any case, let us know how it works out. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:08:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:08:30 -0800 From: dodson-AT- violet.berkeley.edu (allen and alisa dodson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Cynthia's Waltz? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Tues, 4 Feb 1997, Eric Arnold (hi Eric!) wrote: >This one wasn't Cynthia's Waltz -- it was similarly named, but another >name was involved, and it was a duple minor, 1st couple improper longways >set. (Eric goes on to describe the moves...) I think the dance is Laura's Waltz, written to celebrate Laura Robertson's recent wedding last fall. Alisa Dodson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:56:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:49:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: OLD TUNES, NEW DANCES To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, SHARON MCKINLEY wrote: > re: different dances to the same tunes: > the point has been raised tha most ECD dances have a standard > tune, and most tunes serve but one dance. any theories as to why > this is the case, when your average contra has many possibilities > (contras DO run longer, and it would bore the musicians to tears. > that's MY personal theory. scottish country dances aren't longer, > though, and the same holds true there)? musicians may have some > insight into this. I'm afraid I have no insights, but it should be noted that many contra musicians don't play medleys, even for a long dance; they just work through all the corners and twists of the tune. Good players, working on a good tune, don't get bored or boring. I doubt that it's connected, but contra dance survived in New England, where they also used to swap tunes and verses for their hymns. :-)}}} Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:58:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 19:00:55 +0100 From: Martin.Sheffield-AT- wanadoo.fr (Martin Sheffield) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob wrote: >This whole thread interests me because it's a discussion that just >wouldn't happen in England. It didn't happen 40 years ago either -- as far as I know, judging merely from what was being done in the few clubs where I danced, and the few times I went to Cecil Sharp house. I remeber being told things like "They were trad English dances and tunes, that got taken across the Atlantic, and came back years later, sometimes with changed names." There was a difference in style of playing the music, two quite different sounds, for American and English, but the actual execution of the dance figures was the same, except that we skipped and ranted in a few of the English ones. Judging from Bob's remarks, dancing in England has not changed much, though I cannot be sure as I haven't done ECD thee for very many years. I wonder if Playford dances are done in North America in the highly stylized manner in which they are sometimes taught here in France, and which is different from what I remember seeing and doing in GB. This would account for the split between the two dancing communities. In England >there's much less of a split between Playford and >contra (there is however a split between Playford / contra and >ceilidh dancers but that's another thread). Tell us more about that thread, Bob. What do you mean by ceilidh dancers? Royal Scottish country? or hard-shoe reeling? Yours, Martin, Grenoble, France. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:06:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:09:26 -0500 From: elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com (E.L.Bogue) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Jonathan Here's another notion for ECD/contra connections. In GEMS, Jim Kitch wrote a dance called Lovers' Knot which is beautiful and flowing. Jim is really a contra choreographer, and this dance has tremendous flow as a contra dance too. At the Nightingale weekend, I somehow was so tired on Saturday morning (at the 9 am workshop) that I could not face balance, contra-tempo etc. I decided to do this dance but to substitute a short partner swing on the side where the instructions call for a 2 hand turn. It leaves people in the same place, and in fact is just a slightly higher energy version of the same dance. Nightingale provided a tune with lots of drive but no bounce -- just what it needed. It has since occurred to me that one could ask a band to medley together the English tune (Black & Gray, in Barnes under Trip to Kilburn) with a contra tune that is driving and just slightly fasther, and make the transition from two hand turn to swing in the calling -- just move them from English into contra. It would be an intriguing way to help folks see how close in mood the two can be. I'm not yet sure if I'll do that. Erna-Lynne ----------------------------------------------- "Let us be what we are, and let us be it WELL." -- Francis deSales ----------------------------------------------- Erna-Lynne Bogue / elbogue-AT- ix.netcom.com (I read mail at ebogue-AT- umich.edu most often) ----------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:08:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:22:47 -0800 (PST) From: bestockp-AT- oz.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: goals for newish ECD group To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I'm involved in running an ECD group in Champaign, IL. We've been more or >less formally organized for about 1 1/2 years now. Our initial goals were >pretty clear cut; find a space to dance in, set a schedule and promote the >dances, organise the loose collection of musicians into a band, find rehearsal >space, work on building a repetoire of basic dances and hold a Ball at the end >of the season. This has worked out well and now we have a core group of >dancers (not as big as I'd like, but OK), a band going along very well, >monthly >dances scheduled with a few extra thrown in, and we've held two Christmas Ball >and a Playford Ball. My question is, what sort of short- and long-term goals >should be have now? Obviously we want to maintain what we have and build >our attendance, but what other things might we be working on? What should >we keep in mind when setting up the programs for future dances? Any advice >on directions to take or goals to strive for? > > Thanks for any thoughts or tips. > >Jonathan > It sounds as though you are off to a great start! But are you sure you want people in other communities to tell you what you SHOULD be doing now? I think you need to find your own goals, and make the dances work for your particular needs. Here are some questions you might ask yourselves to start on the next set of goals. What is really good about what you have now? What could be better? Do you want to dance more often, or are you happy with the amount you are dancing? What are the advantages and disadvantages of expanding to more dances per month? How fast do you want to expand the numbers of dancers in the group? More people is more exciting, but if you are really successful, you may need to find a bigger hall. Or you may have so many newcomers that you need to slow down the teaching to accommodate the beginners, and the experienced dancers get bored and grumble, or even stop coming. How do you attract new dancers, and how do you make sure they come back again? Is dancing with better style a goal? If you want to improve, how will you do it? Send the leadership to to dance camps? Have people in to teach workshops? Teach workshops yourselves? Just model beautiful dancing at the regular dances so that newcomers are inspired to dance like that? What kinds of repertory does the group like? Do you want more dances that are of this kind? (and how will you get them?) Do you want to try to expand the variety that the group accepts, and see if you can sell dances that are a bit different? What are your social norms? How do they get communicated to newcomers? How are new dancers treated? How do you change patterns of behavior that you see happening and don't like (booking ahead, not changing partners, ignoring newcomers etc.) Is the music glorious, or is improving the band a goal? If the band needs work, how can you get them to make the sounds you'd love to dance to? Do you want to recruit other musicians who can play some of the dances, or do you want to focus on developing the house band you already have? Are there English groups in nearby cities? What do you want the relationship to be? Are they too far away to connect with? Are their ideas for what they are trying to do too different from yours? Will interacting draw them to your group sometimes? Do you want to go dance with them every now and then, or invite their caller to call a dance sometime? What does the group need first or most? How do you go about prioritizing your new goals? How do you keep the good stuff as you start expanding and modifying? Keep us posted on what you come up with. Its always interesting to hear about what other groups are doing. Vicky Bestock, Seattle ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:09:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:22:53 -0800 (PST) From: bestockp-AT- oz.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Bar a Bar To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi friends: Thanks for your help on Scotch Morris! I've another question. The notes I have for Bar a Bar say that the poussette is counterclockwise, M1 and L2 moving forward. But poussette's are almost invariably clockwise, M1 advancing and the only reason I can see for it to be different is if you have to choose between norms because M1 starts progressed, which is not the case here, or because something in the part preceding it makes this the organic direction to go (as in Orleans Baffled with the S-shaped half-poussettes.) which is also not the case, as partners are coming from opposite directions into the poussette, so one or the other has to chance direction whichever way you do it. Are my notes wrong and my instincts right? Or should I believe the written word? Thanks for your help. I'd like to call the dance Friday. Vicky ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:10:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:56:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Collsfield House To: English Dance Maillist Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone out there have the dance for Collsfield (sometimes spelled Coulsfield) House? It's a gorgeous tune, and we'd like to try the dance out. Thanks in advance! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:16:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:16:01 -0800 From: Suzanne Wright Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Baroque Dance Summer Workshop at Stanford To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Baroque Dance at Stanford University 24th Annual Workshop July 28 - August 8, 1997 =46or Dancers, Dance Scholars, Choreographers, Musicians, Musicologists, and Theater Movement Specialists =46ACULTY: Wendy Hilton, Director Linda Tomko, Co-Director Paige Whitley-Bauguess Thomas Baird Bronwen Pugh, Baroque violin The Baroque Dance Summer Workshop at Stanford University offers intensive study in the style, technique and notation of French court and theater dance at beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels. Daily activities include two technique classes, a dance notation class, a music class or lecture-demonstration, and time to use the music library with its extensive dance collection and the Lully Archives. Beginning and intermediate couples are allocated a one hour daily practice slot. Advanced students are allocated practice space and have four private, or semi-private, notation sessions with Wendy Hilton. The Workshop concludes on August 8th with a demonstration followed by a farewell party at 5:00 pm for faculty, students, and guests. This year's focus will be on French dances in France and other European countries, particularly Germany. The couple dance, La Bavaroise, to be reconstructed by intermediate level students, and the contredances for all which conclude each day, will be from a little-explored collection, La Hessoise Darmstat [Munich, 1718], by Jean Pierre Dubreil, a French master employed in Germany. Beginning students will reconstruct Louis P=E9cour's L= a (Die) Bourgogne (1700) (courante, bour=E9e, sarabande, passepied), one of th= e first French danses =E0 deux to appear in print in Germany (I.H. P. 1705). Advanced students may reconstruct a dance of their choice after a consultation with Wendy Hilton. Evening practice space is also available. Choreographed baroque dances will be related to music in dance forms such as the loure, courante, menuet, and gavotte by Bach, Telemann, and Handel. The Stanford Music Library has a large collection of dance source material in addition to its music resources, which include the Lully Archive. Wendy Hilton's book, Dance of Court and Theater: The French Noble Style 1690-1725, is the text used for the workshop. Baroque Dance & Music Faculty Wendy Hilton, Director, is the author of Dance of Court and Theater: The =46rench Noble Style 1690-1725 and co-author with Donald Waxman of Dance Pageant. Her choregraphic credits include La Dafne by Marco de Gagliano, Dardanus by Rameau, and the American premiere of Mary, Queen of Scots by Thea Musgrave. She is on the faculty of The Juilliard School and general editor of the Pendragon Press series Dance and Music: the alliance of the two arts. She has been consulted by such modern choreographers as Jerome Robbins and Trisha Brown. Linda Tomko, Co-Director, leads "Les Menus Plaisirs," a Baroque dance troupe, and she has appeared in reconstructions of Baroque dance throughout the United States, in Canada, and Japan. She holds a Ph.D. in History from UCLA and is Associate Professor of Dance in UC Riverside's Ph.D. program in Dance History and Theory. Paige Whitley-Bauguess holds an M.A. in Dance History from UC Riverside where her specialization in Baroque dance began. She directs the Craven Historical Dancers and owns a dance school. She has lectured and performed 18th-century dance internationally, including engagements in Hong Kong and Japan. Her publications include Dance Music of the French Baroque, a series of scores in modern notation for the music accompanying 18th-century notated dances, and articles in the Dance Notation Journal, and the International Dictionary of Ballet. Thomas Baird, founder and director of the Early Dance Alliance, also directs the dance and music ensemble, "Apollo's Banquet." With his partner, Paige Whitley-Bauguess, he appears frequently as a guest artist with other music ensembles. Mr. Baird has taught ballet at Sarah Lawrence College and been a guest teacher in Baroque dance at The Juilliard School, the Manhattan School of Music, and Princeton University. Bronwen Pugh, a specialist in Baroque violin, studied at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague with Sigiswald Kuijken. She has played in several chamber ensembles and Baroque orchestras throughout Europe. She is a founding member of Restoration and Sonnerie based in Wellington, New Zealand, and she plays regularly in performances of Baroque music and dance. TUITION (non credit): Two weeks (July 28 - August 8) $475. One week (July 28- August 1) $345. Registration: Sunday, July 27 (2 - 6 pm). CONTACT: Baroque Dance Summer Workshop Department of Music Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305-3076 (415) 723-0038 E-mail: melmcgee-AT- leland.stanford.edu Registration: Sunday, July 27 (2 - 6 pm). I am primarily a: ___ musician; ___ dancer; ___ historian/researcher. Explain on a separate sheet if necessary. My level of skill in dance is: ___ BEGINNING ___ INTERMEDIATE ___ ADVANCED ___ PROFESSIONAL Have you ever studied Baroque dance? _________________________ ___ I would like to reserve a copy of Hilton's Dance of Court & Theater (2nd edition 1997) at the special student workshop price of $69. I learned of this workshop from: _______________________________ NAME ______________________________________________________ ADDRESS ___________________________________________________ CITY _____________________________ STATE _____ ZIP _________ COUNTRY __________________________________________________ TELEPHONE ( _____ ) _______________________________________ EMAIL ______________________________________________________ Application Fee is $15 prior to May 31; $30 after May 31. Application Fee is due with this form; course fees must be paid by registration day. Application Fee is non-refundable. ___ Enclosed is my application fee in the amount $_________ Please make check payable to Stanford University. Please send this form with your application fee to: Baroque Dance Summer Workshop Department of Music Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305-3076 If you have any questions regarding the summer program, please contact the Department of Music at (415) 723-0038 or e-mail: melmcgee-AT- leland.stanford.edu. All workshop and housing applications should be sent directly to the Music Deparment. Advance registration is encouraged. Late applications will be accepted only if space permits. Housing Conference Office housing is available at $37 for single or $26.75 for double accommodations per night per person. ___ Yes, please send housing information. ___ No, I will stay off-campus. Housing information will be sent to you upon receipt of this application. Please enclose a note with this form if you have any special housing needs (handicapped access, accompanying family members, etc.). ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:37:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:37:40 -0500 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Reply to: RE>>enticing contra dancers ---------------------------------------------------------------- I've run into a similar attitude to that being discussed. Most of it on the contra side stems from the misconception that English dance is PRISSY. I would love sometime to go back in time to where people GOT this idea, but since it seemed for awhile to be a widely held feeling, I have to assume it did not fall from the sky, but came from some demonstration somewhere, sometime. Unfortunately, this prissiness appears from time to time among contra dancers who have tried and apparently liked ECD. This is ECD, so this must be how it's done! The mincing and prissy styling persists despite good role models, teaching, you name it. They of course take this back to their contra communities and even demonstrate it publicly. Now what to do? sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Without a really strong leadership to squash these strange stylings, this just perpetuates the myths I hear about ECD from others. Mary Beth -------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of the problem attitudes I've encountered with trying to talk contra dancers into trying English is, "if there's no swing it can't be fun." However, I encountered something like what Mary Beth is describing here in the first "International Folk Dance" session that I went to where an English dance was done. It was an absolutely excrutiatingly awful version of "Hole in the Wall", with these elaborate, stiff bows before each movement, which the dancers there seemed to think was correct English styling, and the most lifeless movement I've ever seen done to a dance. "Hole in the Wall" is difficult enough to do well, since it takes such enormous control to fit the steps to the music. Doing that dance as it was done there seemed to me that it would certainly convince anyone who didn't know better that an evening of English dancing would be a most unpleasant experience. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:43:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:43:33 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Bar a Bar To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702041843.NAA15553-AT- panix4.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:22 AM 2/4/97 -0800, Vicky Bestock wrote: >Hi friends: Thanks for your help on Scotch Morris! I've another question. >The notes I have for Bar a Bar say that the poussette is counterclockwise, >M1 and L2 moving forward. But poussette's are almost invariably clockwise, >M1 advancing and the only reason I can see for it to be different is if you >have to choose between norms because M1 starts progressed, which is not the >case here, or because something in the part preceding it makes this the >organic direction to go (as in Orleans Baffled with the S-shaped >half-poussettes.) which is also not the case, as partners are coming from >opposite directions into the poussette, so one or the other has to chance >direction whichever way you do it. > >Are my notes wrong and my instincts right? Or should I believe the written >word? Thanks for your help. I'd like to call the dance Friday. Vicky Vicky: At the end of bar 8 in the B music, the Ones are above and all are once again proper. At this point you have the 1/2 pousette in which to progress. The 1st Woman ADVANCES, 1st man backing, and the 1/2 pousette indeed moves counterclockwise. This results from Fried's strong personal preference: when she is 1st woman, she likes to move forward in the pousette [you can see the same tendency in "First Lady," where she has simultaneous push-pull and draw pousettes so that BOTH women start out dancing forward]. Clearly, Fried does not envision women as being easy to push around. :-) Love, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:54:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:53:53 -0800 From: dodson-AT- violet.berkeley.edu (allen and alisa dodson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: One Dance per Tune or One Tune per Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rich said (in part) > >I agree with the basic concept of One Tune per Dance, although >I am not going to stop musicians from ocassionaly trying out >a different tune. In an ideal world, I suppose One Dance per >Tune is probably preferable, but I wouldn't want to stifle >the creativity of a dance composer by saying, "Sorry, that >tune is taken." Sometimes more than one tune per dance is fun -- I am thinking of Take A Dance and Ore Boggy. Same moves, different tunes, much different feeling. I like and use them both, depending on what mood/kind of energy is wanted. Alisa ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:58:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:58:39 -0500 (EST) From: Sharon Green Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Hole in the Wall/Formerly: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702041858.NAA19437-AT- panix4.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Barbara Ruth wrote: -------------------------------------------------------------------- >Most of the problem attitudes I've encountered with trying to talk contra >dancers into trying English is, "if there's no swing it can't be fun." >However, I encountered something like what Mary Beth is describing here in the >first "International Folk Dance" session that I went to where an English dance >was done. It was an absolutely excrutiatingly awful version of "Hole in the >Wall", with these elaborate, stiff bows before each movement, which the >dancers there seemed to think was correct English styling, and the most >lifeless movement I've ever seen done to a dance. "Hole in the Wall" is >difficult enough to do well, since it takes such enormous control to fit the >steps to the music. Doing that dance as it was done there seemed to me that >it would certainly convince anyone who didn't know better that an evening of >English dancing would be a most unpleasant experience. "Hole in the Wall" does present problems. I was interested in Rhodri Davies' remarks a while back on doing some version of stepping in that dance. I once attended a Baroque workshop with Jody McGeen at which we worked on doing baroque steps to the figures of the dance--I would guess that Rhodri had something else in mind, but I don't know. Any input on how to move in "Hole in the Wall"? Julia, Rhodri, Alisa [Is Jody lurking?], others--? Thanks, Sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:02:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Brief reminder - how to get the DIGEST version of ECD To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IF0KLUXJA8BJX9DH-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- I'm delighted to see the recent volume of discussion on the list, and hope we continue with lots of wide-ranging and interesting conversation. Nobody has mentioned it to me yet, but it's possible that some subscribers may find themselves overwhelmed by the number of messages they get each day. If you'd like to get only one big message a day from the list, you can have it sent to you in digest form. To do so, send mail to ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU with the message body SET DIGEST [Early ECD subscribers may remember that I had a heck of a time getting this feature working properly, but I did finally get it sorted out. I maintain a separate digest subscription for myself so I can be sure that it continues working.] -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:36:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:34:15 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hole in the Wall/Formerly: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Sharon Green wrote: > Any input on how to move in "Hole in the Wall"? Julia, Rhodri, Alisa [Is > Jody lurking?], others--? ^ As one of the "others" -- I recall in my amateurish early music days doing the old hornpipes with a combined 3/2 - 6/8 feel, which gave a very jaunty aspect to it, and they moved right along. Anthony Holborne and Henry Purcell had some wonderful pieces with powerful 3-against-2 rhythms. I wonder if we perhaps are interpreting them too slowly, just to convince ourselves that they aren't waltzes. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:37:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:36:39 -0500 (EST) From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <970204131237_1145981251-AT- emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-03, Maryn McKenna writes: "....... a couple other folks in attendance (ECD dancers with years more contra experience than me) suggested that contra rewards rushing, because the faster you get there the more time you have to swing ("Swing," one guy declared, "is dessert.")." But that swing still feels better when it's on its intended phrase of music; I guess I like savoring the main course before I have dessert! From my very limited experience with contra dancing, it also seems to me to accustom dancers to immediate gratification; figures are often relatively simple and the quickest of walk-throughs can be followed by a rush of exuberant movement. This can make a contra dancer impatient with the more thorough teaching of figures and style that we ECD-ers expect and accept as necessary to our own joy in dancing, and is probably one more factor that makes ECD a "tough sell" for some contra dancers. At a recent New York City event which began with an ECD segment and ended with contras, one of my partners who was new to English dancing fidgeted throughout the excellent teaching of Newcastle, and as the dance was about to begin, said, "All that teaching wasn't necessary!" I needn't describe what followed....... Carol Martinez White Plains, N.Y. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:57:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:55:03 -0500 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: One Dance per Tune or One Tune per Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199702041955.OAA04779-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Alisa said: >Sometimes more than one tune per dance is fun -- I am thinking of Take A >Dance and Ore Boggy. Same moves, different tunes, much different feeling. >I like and use them both, depending on what mood/kind of energy is wanted. I love hearing all these references to the Neal book (Ore Boggy). It reminds me, there is a nice version of Portsmouth in that book. Same (or similar) tune, the dance is a triple-minor with a mirror-image hey. Not bad. I have also written a dance to the tune for The Brittaine (sp?) which is far superior to the original. Philippe: You were looking for easier 3/2 dances, try Dusty Miller from Neal. It has some funny things, like backwards contra-corners, but the dance is definitely worth doing. It is not a beginners dance, though. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:00:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:00:15 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: HOLE IN THE WALL To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: re: hole in the wall: ooh, ooh, push another button, why don't ya. i've always felt that HITW was danced too slowly. i wonder if the musicians think it's prettier that way. it's a legitimate piece of "classical" music (handel, maybe? purcell?), and when i heard it played in context, was delighted with its liveliness. if we danced it closer to that speed than to that normally provided, the dance would work much better. but i learned it as an international dancer too; that and Trip to Paris were our official english dances. i didn't take up ECD for another 12 years. sharon "you're diverting again" mckinley and not an official retired international dancer for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:26:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:25:51 -0500 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: One Dance per Tune or O To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Reply to: RE>>One Dance per Tune or One Tune per Dance -------------------------------------- Philippe: You were looking for easier 3/2 dances, try Dusty Miller from Neal. It has some funny things, like backwards contra-corners, but the dance is definitely worth doing. It is not a beginners dance, though. ----------------------------------------------------------- I believe we just did that one last week at the Providence Ball. I'd never done it before. It was quite surprisingly delightful. Some unexpectedly sexy moves. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:44:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:44:30 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hole in the Wall/Formerly: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Eric: Just what do you mean by 3 to 2 rhythms? Normally these did not exist in the time of Purcell, so I suspect you really mean something else. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:45:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:44:30 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hole in the Wall/Formerly: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Eric: Just what do you mean by 3 to 2 rhythms? Normally these did not exist in the time of Purcell, so I suspect you really mean something else. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:48:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:48:34 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hole in the Wall/Formerly: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sharon, I do believe Hole in the Wall was intended to be done with "steps." The question is, however, which steps? Further, Lorin says they English supplied whatever steps they chose--in other words, the group of dancers would not all do the same steps at the same time. The best we can do now is learn the steps of the period, as codified by the French, and apply them according to our judgment to Hole in the Wall. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:48:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:48:34 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hole in the Wall/Formerly: enticing contra dancers To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sharon, I do believe Hole in the Wall was intended to be done with "steps." The question is, however, which steps? Further, Lorin says they English supplied whatever steps they chose--in other words, the group of dancers would not all do the same steps at the same time. The best we can do now is learn the steps of the period, as codified by the French, and apply them according to our judgment to Hole in the Wall. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:51:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:51:14 -0500 (EST) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: HOLE IN THE WALL To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sharon, In my opinion, Hole in the Wall is done slowly today because "old dances were done by old people, therefore slowly." This is of course nonsense. Please note that in the complete works of Purcell it is called a hornpipe! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:18:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford