Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 12:23:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:16:49 -0500 (EST) From: Margaret Whaley <101454.633-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD Message-ID: <961104201649_101454.633_IHP51-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At the House the other night, a discussion arose as to whether it was the dance steps or the music which was more important. I.e. Is it more important to have a good tune regardless of the steps, or is it better to be dancing a combination of steps one enjoys to what music is best suited, regardless of the actual tune? I was on the side of the Music being more important. What does everybody else think? Margaret Whaley Oxfordshire, England ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 12:36:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:35:59 -0500 From: Jailbait Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dancing in Tampa/St.Pete/Clearwater on 11/5/96? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199611042035.PAA07763-AT- asylum.apocalypse.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm going to be in the Clearwater/Tampa Florida area TOMORROW night and am looking for some dancing. I'm not honestly expecting to find any. :( If anyone wants to prove me wrong, please let me know asap! JB, business traveller. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 13:01:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:00:12 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <961104150012.29b8-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT One of Britain's better Playford teachers/leaders suggests that "Dance is Music Made Visible." I think it was Tom Clark (Help on that one?) You can play music without the dance. In some cases, it works. We play the Bare Necessities recordings around our house as beautiful chamber music. Here, the music, in these performances, stands on its own. I know of very few dances that work without some real/implied music. Some versons of "Kentucky Set Running" come to mind. Perhaps the key is the 'marriage' between the two. Movements are keyed to the phrasing of the music. Some- times, the dance comes first and the music is gathered/composed to fit the physical movements (not always 'figures'). Some people will want to respond to this question by saying "which can exist in performance without the other." I am purposely not mentioning the various arrangements by Holst, Vaughan Williams, et. al., because they have very little to do with music for dancing. Perhaps I too recently read, for the second time, "The Imagined Village." One other thought: Dance music, by this I mean dances where the movements came first, has had a great impact on form and phrasing in later music. A famous woman music historian whose name slips my mind (one of the dangers of getting older) pointed this out while a member of the faculty of Eastern Michigan University. Was it Edith or Elizabeth Borroff (I just looked it up: it's Edith)? Forbes/Baker ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 19:42:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 22:43:14 -0400 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >At the House the other night, a discussion arose as to whether it was the dance >steps or the music which was more important. I'm wondering whether you mean steps here or figures. As an American, the way we do your dances we are eternally eliminating steps - "skip?, rant?, skip-change?, slip? Do we have to?" The other night I did Harlequin, from New Wine in Old Bottles. It was towards the end of the evening. You should have seen the pained expressions on people's faces because of those simple little slipping circles in the B section. If you're actually talking about figures, then I'd like to advance the idea that good figures in a felicitous succession can make a dance, but a dinky tune is a real trial for a dance with good figures. On the other hand, a wondrous tune can overcome almost the dinkyest set of figures in the business. I'll cite Easter Thursday in support of this. That wondrous tune, which isn't the original one I understand, can overcome nearly everyone's clearsightedness about the total lack of originality of the succession of figures. Don't everyone flame me at once. The other week we did Winter Solstice with Wendy's tune. As many of you know we've been doing it to "Early One Morning" here for almost a year. I hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings but, ingenious as the figures are, and graceful as the entire concept is, the tune Wendy supplied is just not the same thrill as the one we've been using for the last year. Maybe it's just our taste. Maybe Americans have a different taste than those good folks whose dances we've so enthusiastically adopted. It definitely was not the band. > Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts Photographer, English Country Dance leader, weaver/spinner No matter which side of the fence you're on, the grass will always turn brown if you don't water it. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 23:24:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 23:15:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm afraid I am not understanding the question very well. Are you posing the question, "Is it better to dance a poor dance to great music, or a great dance to poor music?" Or are you asking about whether, if the tune to a particular dance is a poor one, it's a good idea to find a better tune? Please elucidate. Thanks! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 01:49:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 01:49:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009AAE44.0711E056.16-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Emily mentioned -- >If you're actually talking about figures, then I'd like to advance the idea >that good figures in a felicitous succession can make a dance, but a dinky >tune is a real trial for a dance with good figures. On the other hand, a >wondrous tune can overcome almost the dinkyest set of figures in the >business. I'll cite Easter Thursday in support of this. >That wondrous tune, which isn't the original one I understand, can overcome >nearly everyone's clearsightedness about the total lack of originality of >the succession of figures. >Don't everyone flame me at once. Not flaming, but I think it would be possible to construct a set of figures that would go very badly with the Easter Thursday tune. (However, give the current Easter Thursday figures a generic reel and they'd be of little interest.) This doesn't answer the question of whether tunes are more important than dances, but I note: a) Good tunes tend to accrete dances. Note "The Chestnut", which is now used for "The Pilgrim" and "All Saints' Day", which are distinctly different dances, but all go well with the tune. b) Over in Morris land, quite a few of the collected dances in Bampton are the identical dance to different tunes - which was enough of a difference to give them different names. c) If you want a succession of unoriginal figures, look at the Millar Colonial Dances of Early America. More close variants of "star right, star left, down the middle and back, cast off, rights and lefts" you wouldn't want to see. [Of course, the wonderful "Young Widow" meets that description, but the tune helps.] Sorry if this is scattered. It's late here. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 03:39:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 06:40:00 -0400 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >I'm afraid I am not understanding the question very well. Are you posing >the question, "Is it better to dance a poor dance to great music, or a >great dance to poor music?" Or are you asking about whether, if the tune >to a particular dance is a poor one, it's a good idea to find a better >tune? Please elucidate. > >Thanks! > >Peace. >Paul I think the question really is: is the tune the thing that attracts people to a dance, or is the sequence of figures what makes the dance a hit? Basically, citing Easter Thursday as an example, I suggest that the tune has more power in the equation. A superior melody can overcome even the limitations of a dance such as that. Does anyone have experience with really interesting (=good) dance figure sequences getting lost in the face of boring tunes? Ah, now we can talk about what makes a tune boring and what makes a dance sequence interesting! Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts Photographer, English Country Dance leader, weaver/spinner No matter which side of the fence you're on, the grass will always turn brown if you don't water it. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 07:24:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 09:22:59 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <961105092259.28d4-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My great problem with the Millar book is the section on cotillions. I'm curious about some of the musical considerations as well as a good batch of the figure realizations. I've been away from early American materials for quite some time, only visiting them occasionally. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:39:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:30:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Copy of: Music v Steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Emily L. Ferguson wrote: > Ah, now we can talk about what makes a tune boring and what makes a dance > sequence interesting! Speaking as a musician, I find two classes of boring tunes. The first is the tune with no surprises, no interesting twists; it turns the predictable corners, runs through an absolutely standard set of chord changes, and gets you home, ho-hum. There are a lot of tunes like that, but I notice they aren't danced much. The other class of tunes that's a problem, albeit a more subtle one, is the type of tune with little or no scope for interesting variation. These tunes may be OK to listen to first time round, but they have few if any possible changes in ornamentation, or rhythm, or harmonization. As a result, often there are only one or two possible ways to play them. For a USA dance this isn't necessarily a great drawback,but for a longways set it's deadly. An example that I've found of the latter type of tune is "The Female Saylor" (other musicians may well disagree, but I find this tune hard as hell to squeeze any variety from). Some counter-examples, tunes that I could play for hours and never exhaust the possibilities, include "Jamaica", "Duke of Kent's Waltz" (the original) and Colin Hume's "Elizabeth". My $.02. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:41:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 20:38:05 +0000 From: Mary Stafford Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Steps vs. Music To: 'English Country Dance List' Message-ID: <01BBCB59.5D8D74A0-AT- mes.world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To me a really good dance has both. And it "fits" the music well. "Young = Widow" certainly fits that description. So do "From Aberdeen", "Hudson = Barn", Hambleton's Round O", "Room for Ramblers" and "Knives and Forks". I like dances where one feels caught in music/steps, like some great = ethereal machine. Mary Stafford ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 22:48:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 00:18:10 -0500 (EST) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Problem tunes (was Re: Copy of: Music v Steps) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Paul J. Stamler wrote: > The other class of tunes that's a problem, albeit a more subtle one, is > the type of tune with little or no scope for interesting variation. These > tunes may be OK to listen to first time round, but they have few if any > possible changes in ornamentation, or rhythm, or harmonization. As a > result, often there are only one or two possible ways to play them. For a > USA dance this isn't necessarily a great drawback,but for a longways set > it's deadly. > > An example that I've found of the latter type of tune is "The Female > Saylor" (other musicians may well disagree, but I find this tune hard as > hell to squeeze any variety from). what instrument(s) do you play? i find that "masters in this hall" lends itself well to different ranges on the fiddle (i.e., with only minor adjustment to the bottom of the range, you can play it down an octave from where it's notated) as well as pizzicato (assuming i'm playing into a microphone, or if acoustically, in a small hall) - the notes don't go too fast for plucking. a local (central n.j.) tradition with this tune is to switch keys once or twice to add variety. i often play for performances of english country and 18th-century american all by myself on the fiddle (and sometimes the recorder). tunes that *i* have trouble making interesting without other musicians are fandango and prince william - perhaps because they go six times through the music for three times through the set dance. fortunately, the germantown country dancers demo teams run longways dances only 3-5 times through in performance, far fewer times than they would dance them socially! - susie lorand, using Ben Bolker's e-mail account ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 02:08:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 02:02:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Problem tunes (was Re: Copy of: Music v Steps) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Susie Lorand wrote: > > An example that I've found of the latter type of tune is "The Female > > Saylor" (other musicians may well disagree, but I find this tune hard as > > hell to squeeze any variety from). > > what instrument(s) do you play? i find that "masters in this hall" lends > itself well to different ranges on the fiddle (i.e., with only minor > adjustment to the bottom of the range, you can play it down an octave from > where it's notated) as well as pizzicato (assuming i'm playing into a > microphone, or if acoustically, in a small hall) - the notes don't go too > fast for plucking. a local (central n.j.) tradition with this tune is to > switch keys once or twice to add variety. I'm sorry, I'm afraid should have been clearer: I'm one of the accompanist types, playing fingerpicked guitar. But it always seems like our melody players (flutes, recorder and fiddle) also run out of variations pretty quickly on this one. > i often play for performances of english country and 18th-century american > all by myself on the fiddle (and sometimes the recorder). tunes that *i* > have trouble making interesting without other musicians are fandango and > prince william - perhaps because they go six times through the music for > three times through the set dance. fortunately, the germantown country > dancers demo teams run longways dances only 3-5 times through in > performance, far fewer times than they would dance them socially! Now, that's interesting--because Prince Wm., at least, is one we all find lots of variations on--melody players and me too (I play melody occasionally on about half the tunes). Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 05:30:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 08:30:08 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: DANCES AND TUNES To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: tough tunes to play or dance to: as a dancer, i love some of the oldie moldies with little variation. female saylor is one of them. it's a driving tune, with a dance that is exhilarating. the very repetitiveness of it makes it attractive. some of the international dances i used to do, with 1 simple tune played over and over, and incredibly uncomplicated steps, were the hypnotic ones. it can be truly fun to go on sheer muscle memory. of course, from the musician's point of view, this can be quite boring, especially in a longways. one of our criteria in choosing ball dances in baltimore is to includes ones with great improv potential. but i sure enjoy some of the really basic tunes as well. sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not an official hypnotist for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 12:29:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 20:54:19 +0100 From: Martin Kiff Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #114 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Margaret Whaley <101454.633-AT- CompuServe.COM>, FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU, "Emily L. Ferguson" , "Paul J. Stamler" , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing , Jailbait Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >At the House the other night, a discussion arose as to whether it was the dance >steps or the music which was more important. One vote for 'music'.... ... if only for the reason that steps imply only the feet and good music makes the whole body dance. Regards, Martin Kiff http://www.ftech.co.uk/~webfeet/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 12:29:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 20:54:19 +0100 From: Martin Kiff Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD Digest V1 #114 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-digest-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Margaret Whaley <101454.633-AT- CompuServe.COM>, FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU, "Emily L. Ferguson" , "Paul J. Stamler" , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing , Jailbait Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >At the House the other night, a discussion arose as to whether it was the dance >steps or the music which was more important. One vote for 'music'.... ... if only for the reason that steps imply only the feet and good music makes the whole body dance. Regards, Martin Kiff http://www.ftech.co.uk/~webfeet/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 04:34:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 07:34:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: BONNY HILDITCH To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: bonny hilditch: i hate to post personal news to the list, but here i am. bonny hilditch is very ill and currently in hopkins hospital in baltimore. folks have been emailing me for her address, and since so many people know her and would want to write, i'm providing it here. even if you DON'T know her, send a card anyway. her home address is 2223 E. Baltimore St., Baltimore MD 21231 thanks sharon mckinley ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:13:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:08:53 -0500 (EST) From: Stewart Dean Subject: Tunes given to improv...to each his (or her) own To: ECD Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199611171713.MAA09735-AT- mhv.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was at Northern Week last year when Bare Necessities (less Earl. much missed) was in residence and sat in next to Peter Barnes at one of the more informal evening EC dances. Female Saylor was chosen, as I remember, to Peter's glee and subsequent (considerable) improvisation. I confess I had trouble holding the melody in the B part with all the changes he was ringing on it. So...everybody has a different slant on what can be interesting played again...sometimes it's playing the melody fairly straight but with different phrasing, others with improv. // ...In which Eeyore's birthday is Forgotten ... // "Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyor gloomily. "If it *is* a good // morning, which I doubt," said he. // "Why, what's the matter?' // "Nothing, Pooh Bear, nothing. We can't all, and some of us don't. // That's all there is to it.' // "Can't all *what*?", said Pooh, rubbing his nose. // "Gaiety. Song-and-dance. Here we go round the mulbery bush." // "Oh!" said Pooh. He thought for a long time, and then asked, // "What mulberry is that?" // "Bob-hommy," went on Eeyore gloomily. // "I'm not complaining, but There It Is." // // Stewart Dean Kingston, NY Homepage: www.mhv.net/~sdean/welcome.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:14:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:10:54 -0800 (pst) From: afeldman-AT- oacis.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Resilient floor construction/materials To: BACDS-DISCUSS-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9610228486.AA848679132-AT- ccsmtp.bellahs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Does anyone know of a good source for detailed information about floor construction and materials (and finishes), for a good body-friendly dance floor? Does anyone on the list have technical expertise in this area themselves? Would resilience requirements for a gym floor (basketball, etc.) be equivalent to resilience requirements for a dance floor (including Morris)? Thanks in advance for any pointers. Anise Feldman Novato, CA ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:12:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:11:48 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Resilient floor construction/materials To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199611221711.MAA25748-AT- watt.uwaterloo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anyone know of a good source for detailed information about floor > construction and materials (and finishes), for a good body-friendly dance In what way? > themselves? Would resilience requirements for a gym floor (basketball, Gym floors are built on concrete. No bounce; no thing. Gymnastics floors are at times built with a bit of spring by having 2 layers of plywood with something springy inbetween. They are fun to do flips on :-) Most good dance floors are built with a floor over-top of springs (or car tires!) covered by a hardwood (teak etc). I know of 2 floors like that where you have several inches of bounce; esp. with 300 people on the floor! Really nice church floors use the natural flex of floor that is built above ground. I'm not sure about the longevity of the floor though as the continual flexing will probably drive out the nails by a ratcheting action. Modern floors have the top layer screwed down to prevent nails from poping out. Not much on detail there; but different ways to go about it. Anything that takes the edge off of the impact is a major improvement. Commerical gymnastics floor specs may be available. I'm not sure exactly how the sprung dance floors that I've dance on are made. If you can find one perhaps you could talk to the builder. A quick and dirty solution would be a joist floor built with a few inch gap beneath it. Sizing of the joists would depend upon how much spring you'd like and it would get softer to the middle. Proper sprung dance floors do develope soft spots but they tend to be a uniform spring-ness even to the edges since they are not attached to the wall. I've heard of at least one Judo club using plywood over car tires. Good luck, - Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 20:39:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:39:05 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Mieczkowski Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Resilient floor construction/materials To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199611230439.XAA22694-AT- daisy.snet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Does anyone know of a good source for detailed information about floor=20 >construction and materials (and finishes), for a good body-friendly dance= =20 >floor? Does anyone on the list have technical expertise in this area=20 >themselves? Would resilience requirements for a gym floor (basketball,=20 >etc.) be equivalent to resilience requirements for a dance floor (including= =20 >Morris)? > As a structural engineer, I design floors for a living. Unfortunately, all of them are of steel and concrete. However, after developing some serious tendon problems this summer at Pinewoods, I decided to measure the floor framing for C#. As designed, C# is a very hard floor. Model Building Codes require new dance floors to be designed for 100 pounds per square foot live load, while a crowded dance floor rarely has greater than 20 pounds per square foot. This is one reason why new floors such as C# are so hard. In general, the stronger the floor, the harder it is. The building code is wrong to require such high design loads, but then not many building code officials are dancers. The other reason is that standard building techniques make for very stiff floors. The layout of the joists and beams determines the strength and stiffness of a floor. Unfortunately, the standard framing plan makes for a hard floor. In order to design a floor that is strong yet resilient, an innovative framing plan must be developed. I have designed a small dance hall floor for Tom and Val Medve in Vermont. They built it themselves and are quite pleased with the dance floor. I have also developed a design approach for a large hall that works on a structural analysis computer model (RISA-3D). It is actually a revised plan of C#. It's not possible to describe the framing plan here without drawings. If you are interested, mail to me directly. Otherwise, you would do well to contact a local ballet company. Find out who built their floor and if they are happy with it. I rather doubt that gym floors are built with resilience in mind, but perhaps thay are. Finally, I would be interested in gathering information on dance floors. I can't be the only structural engineer who dances. Please send a subjective opinion of how the floor feels, and any information about its framing, i.e. joist size, spacing, carrying beam sizes, girders and columns. Jim Mieczkowski Corr =E8isc nead ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:07:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:06:59 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Praetzel Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Resilient floor construction/materials To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961123001243.124f09ea-AT- ece.uwaterloo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Are there any building codes regarding a floor built over a spec. stiff floor? I was just doing some repellign and climbing and the floor was a good 4" of foam covered with carpet! I doubt that it is no where near stiff enough given the weight of a real floor. I still like the idea of a floor supported by tires! It would be tempting to try a 1/2" tongue&groove plywood floor held by 2*4's on their side, glued & screwed. I'm not sure about coverage in the way of hardwood since I've only ever done that glued to concrete or pretty solidly nailed onto a plywood floor that does not flex overly much. I consider the min. spec. for houses to be pretty "soft" given 2 people bouncing on the floor. It would probably be quite soft given a few sets of people bouncing a bit (ever tried any Irish Ceili dancing?). >tendon problems this summer at Pinewoods, I decided to measure the floor Pity about that. I hope that you recover fully. One of these years I'll have to make it down there. >Model Building Codes require new dance floors to be designed for 100 pounds >per square foot live load, while a crowded dance floor rarely has greater >than 20 pounds per square foot. This is one reason why new floors such as Come dancing in Ann Arbor some time! I was amazed at how they packed 3 contra lines into a building that I figured would be a bit cramped wtih 2! >C# are so hard. In general, the stronger the floor, the harder it is. The Luckily stiffness and strength don't have to go hand in hand. but if the floor is only going to be supported stiffly, then I think we're stuck. The floor has to float. >I have designed a small dance hall floor for Tom and Val Medve in Vermont. I'm glad to hear that it worked out. We are kind of blessed with the best sprung dance floor in Ontario. Toronto (a city of millions relative to Guelph with the sprung floor; Guelph has a population of about 150,000) could really use a good dance floor; but our estimates show that we can't pull it off finicially. We can't afford a building; never mind building the floor! Truly drepressing compared to Ann Arbor. >Finally, I would be interested in gathering information on dance floors. I We pretty well dance in churches; wooden joists ..... built to spec. from turn of the century. ie stiff; but it beats the concrete that I usually dance on. I've never been under them to see the actual construction though. keep on dancin' - Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:33:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Resilient floor construction/materials To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Our contra-dance group dances on a floor laid on handballs. Well, not *exactly* handballs, perhaps, although I'm told they look a lot like handballs. Anyway, they set the small, resilient rubber things that look like handballs on a grid pattern, one every foot. It makes a floor that's great to dance on. Unfortunately I don't know anything about what's under the handballs. I do know that it cost a small fortune to build. (It's a commercial dance studio and it's used a lot, so they're getting their money's worth.) Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:34:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:34:54 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Resilient floor construction/materials To: ECD-AT- edsug.com Message-ID: <01IC8WESJX6Q00DHDA-AT- UG.EDS.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This was posted on rec.folk-dancing a year or so ago... From: kcw-AT- rac1.wam.umd.edu (kcw) Subject: Re: Instlling a wood dance floor on a cement slab? Date: 18 Feb 1995 21:56:56 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <3i5qf8$8uq-AT- hecate.umd.edu> I have a friend who's installed several sprung floors over cement slabs. He lays down a series of boards (1/3? not sure), one foot o/c, then a series perpendicular to the first, also 1 foot on-center, with 5/8" rubber pads between them at the intersections, and then nails the floor into the top boards. There is actually special rubber made for this purpose. If you can't find info elsewhere, I might be able to track down some more, but I may not get to it immediately. And, I don't always read this newsgroup: mail me personally. Good luck Keith Winston winston-AT- zool.umd.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:39:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:39:46 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Christmas Ball in Illinois 12/21 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199611251639.KAA11637-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The Central Illinois English Country Dancers Present An E N G L I S H C O U N T R Y D A N C E C H R I S T M A S B A L L The Central Illinois English Country Dancers will be holding their second annual Christmas Ball on Saturday, December 21, 1996. The dance will be held at the Channing-Murray Foundation, 1209 W. Oregon, Urbana, IL, on the campus of the University of Illinois. There will be a review of the evening's dances from 7:00 to 8:00, followed by the Ball from 8:00 to 11:00 p.m. Fans and finery are encouraged. There will be a $5.00 suggested donation to help cover the cost of the Ball. All lovers of English Country dance and music are welcome. Dances Lead By: Susan Burt, Jane Hobgood, Patricia Moffitt and Jonathan Sivier Music Provided By: The Flatland Consort Dance Review: 7:00 p.m. Christmas Ball: 8:00 to 11:00 p.m. Date: Saturday, December 21, 1996 Location: Channing-Murray Foundation, 1209 W. Oregon, Urbana, IL Suggested Donation: $5.00 For further information contact Jonathan Sivier (j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu) at 217/359-8225. Thanks for the support of the Champaign Park District and the Urbana Country Dancers. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:04:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:04:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Christmas Ball in Illinois 12/21 To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <01IC9E5PUQT4B120M7-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jonathan -- The Christmas Ball sounds great! I'm curious about a few things. How did you get the support of the Champaign Park District? How many people do you expect? What's the program like, and how did you (plural 'you', I gather) arrive at it? -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:49:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:49:17 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Christmas Ball in Illinois 12/21 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199611252049.OAA03746-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan, et al., Last year when we were looking for a place to hold our dances we checked with the Champaing Park District about having them at their Rec center where they hold their dance classes. I know about this because I had been teaching some contra dance classes there. They were very interested in having us and have llisted us in their schedules. This has lead to good exposure and new people coming and trying ECD out. We do pay a minimal fee for them to have someone there to open the building and sit at the front desk. It works out to about $15 per event. We'll be holding our Ball at a different location for a couple of reasons, primarily for the more formal (Ball-like) atmosphere. We held a Christmas Ball last December and a Playford Ball this past June and had over 30 dancers at each. I hope to have that many this year and possibly more. We are having a meeting tomorrow to discuss the program. It will be composed from dances we have done at our monthly events. We're also talking of having a mummer's play and other things. Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:46:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:44:29 -0500 From: The Dupres Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Pinewoods Web Page & 1997 Schedule To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BBDB19.E39CF3C0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have updated the Pinewoods Web Page. It now contains the 1997 schedule. -Bob ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:38:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:35:43 -0500 From: The Dupres Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Pinewoods URL To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BBDB21.1E4D3280-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Oops! I forgot to say that the URL for the Pinewoods Web page is: www.nerc.com/~dupre/pinewoods.html -Bob ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:30:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:47:02 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Pinewoods URL To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <329A8456.38B2-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <01BBDB21.1E4D3280-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Bob - Thanks for a great job! Pinewoods is my idea of Nirvana... Mary (Sighing AS We Speak) Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:08:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:08:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: CAMP SCHEDULES To: ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: bob and the pinewoods page and schedule: ok, so i've been ignoring it. bob, what's the address, and does it by any chance include bufflao gap (or is there a BG page as well?). sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:23:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:21:11 -0500 From: The Dupres Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Buffalo Gap To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BBDBC6.AA49EE40-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In answer to Sharon's question, Buffalo Gap is not included in the Pinewoods page. The CDSS page has information about Buffalo Gap though next year's schedule was not there when last I checked. The CDSS sessions to be held at BG in 1997 are: English American July 5-12 Sue Dupre (Where have I heard that name before?) Family Week July 12-19 Andy & Robin Davis The CDSS page is at www.cdss.org There is an unofficial (and out of date ) BG page at www.wizard.net/~steve/bgweb/ -Bob ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:57:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:57:14 -0500 (EST) From: "David R. Woolf" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Atlanta's Eng Dance - New home and next dance To: ECD list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT English Country Dance Atlanta has a new home. The folks at Messiah Lutheran Church are graciously opening their doors to us beginning on December 8. Messiah Lutheran is at 465 Clairemont Ave, between Scott Blvd and downtown Decatur square - really just around the corner from Westchester. Also, ECDA will be moving to **second Sundays** in its new home. The music in December will be great. Ruth Purcell on violin, Andrew Smith on piano and Bill Porter on flute. (There's also a rumor of a Briar Rose Garland dancers appearance on the 8th.) *** *** *** *** *** *** ENGLISH COUNTRY DANCE ATLANTA Web site: userwww.service.emory.edu/~dwoolf\ecda.html Atlanta Dance Hotline: 404/351-DANC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Woolf Emory Eye Center W - 404/778-4121 Emory University H - 404/355-2827 Atlanta, GA 30322 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 03:09:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 03:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: St. Louis Holiday Grand Dance To: English Dance Maillist Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The second annual Holiday Grand Dance, sponsored by the St. Louis English Country Dancers, will be held on Saturday evening, Dec. 7th, "A Night that will Live in Infamy". Music will be provided by The Speckled Band, calling by Carol Luer and Peter Wollenberg. The dance will take place at St. Augustine's Episcopal Church, 7039 Bruno, two blocks west of McCausland, near the border of St. Louis and Maplewood. For more information, please call Kevin Keach at 314-427-0108. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:25:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:18:42 -0800 (PST) From: bestockp-AT- oz.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Alan, I haven't gotten anything from the ECD list for more than a week, maybe two weeks. What gives? Are we ALL too busy to write, or are you not in town to post the stuff people are sending, or is something wrong with my e-mail? Vicky