Archive-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:06:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:54:09 +0000 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <841607765.11535.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan Winston wrote: > The EC dance scenes in the UK and US seem to be very different, and I'd like to > hear more about them both. The differences interest be considerably. I'll add a few of my thoughts to the debate. Firstly though, a disclaimer. Imagine that every sentence starts with the words 'In my opinion', these are my opinions based on my experiences dancing, calling and playing in the UK and dancing and calling in the US ( specifically Seattle, Boston and Vermont ). If I say anything wrong about the UK or US scenes or, if what I say doesn't apply to your area please correct me. I am not trying to insult or upset anyone either. If you feel that I have done that please email me privately just to make sure that it isn't purely a misunderstanding due to some bad phrasing on my part. I am not going to deal with the Scottish, Modern Square Dance or Line Dance scenes at all. In the UK these are pretty seperate to the main English / American / ceilidh scenes and my impression is that this is true in the US as well. I am going to try and avoid using the term 'English Country Dance' since I think that this has already been the source of some confusion. Instead I will use 'Playford' to indicate dances from the 17th or 18th centuries. As I see it, the UK scene splits into three sections - Ceilidh, Dance and one night stand. I shall attempt to provide a brief overview: Ceilidh This has really taken off over the past few years. There are a lot of very electric bands playing rocked up versions of traditional tunes. For example, I went to a ceilidh last night with Peeping Tom and Hugh Rippon. Peeping Tom feature melodeon, electric guitars ( bass and rhythym ), electric mandolin, electric keyboard and drums ( also electric as it happens ). The music was loud ( several people including the caller wore earplugs ) and very upbeat. The dances were fairly simple and included a waltz ( St. Bernards Waltz ) and two hornpipes ( Nottingham Swing and Clopton Bridge ). There are a number of ceilidh series - Peeping Tom's monthly series in Coventry springs to mind as do the M27 megabops. This is what is attracting younger people - the spread of ages at a ceilidh is usually very wide. In general, the dances do not have set tunes. If I decided to do "The Willow Tree" I would just ask the band for a set of 48 bar jigs and let them pick whatever they wanted. I would expect the band to have a selection of jigs, reels, polkas, hornpipes ( meaning step hops ) and waltzes. The ceilidhs I've been to at Folklife in Seattle ( with Jiggery Polkery and Fiery Clockface ) have been excellent and very similar to the ceilidhs over here ( although no one knows the works to 'Blaydon Races' and 'Lily the Pink' ). The 'English Barn Dance' I went to at NEFFA was less impressive and less accurate. Other than these isolated examples, I get the feeling that there isn't a ceilidh scene in the States. In addition, the ceilidh scene is expanding the range of music it uses. There are bands specialising in French music, bourees are popular. Token Women are a typical example of this. Just out of interest, 'Black Nag' has recently become popular at ceilidhs. The dance is simple, can be made very exuberant and the tune is great. We do the whole dance through several times, getting louder and faster each time. 'Dance' I've quoted this because I don't like the term, it comes over as snobby but it seems to be the currently accepted term - if someone has a better one please let me know. This covers Playford, American contra and traditional squares, a certain amount of traditional English dance ( although this is now mostly done in the ceilidh scene ) and dances by modern composers in a variety of styles ( I'm thinking about people like Pat Shaw, Colin Hume, Fried de Metz Herman and others ). We tend not to have separate square, contra and Playford dance scenes - although some clubs and callers specialise in one area or another it is quite common to have a Saturday night dance which mixes Playford, square, contra, traditional and modern English dances. We do have special events - particularly at festivals where there might be a Playford Ball and an American night. Bands are expected to be able to play for American and Playford. The dance scene is based around clubs who meet weekly, often dancing to recorded music. The clubs organise Saturday night dances, perhaps 2 or 4 a year with a guest caller and live music. Bands tend to be based around accordion and fiddle - piano has gone out of fashion, we have very few pianists ( by contrast, the Americans seem to have very few accordionists - I must make the effort to get past the first 10 pages of "Interview with a Vamper" ). We tend not to have dance series in the same way as in the US ( there are some exceptions but they are exceptions, the weekly clubs are the rule ). The age range for this is much older than that for ceilidhs. I have gone to dances and been the youngest person in the room by 20 years ( I'm 30 ). This dance scene also seems to be shrinking - attendances at dances are getting smaller, clubs are running fewer Saturday night dances. Alan also wrote: > It appears that the current American ECD style (disregarding > Renaissance Faire, SCA, or other semi-historical recreators) > emphasizes the smooth, flowing, graceful aspect of ECD, usually > found in "historical" dances, over the exuberant aspect usually > found in "traditional" dances. I gather that the situation in > England is different. Music for the bulk of the current American > ECD repertoire can be found in the Barnes book (of 404 tunes), which > is an excellent start for an American ECD musician. I would agree with this. The American style of Playford has always seemed to me to be concerned with grace and style ( 'romantic' is a word I often hear associated with Playford in America ). My feeling is that Americans are more protective of their Playford tradition that the Brits are. I remember one American friend of mine coming out of the Playford Ball at Sidmouth saying indignantly "They don't know how to play for a Playford dance!". The musicians involved ( Chris Dewhurst and Sue Stapledon by the way, and yes, I have told them this story - they weren't offended ) tend to be rather experimental. When Chris gets going the result can end up very 'straight', romantic and lyrical or sounding like Glenn Miller meets John Playford, lots of big 7th and 9th chords and some utterly over the top arrangements. ( Quick ad, Chris has several recordings out featuring himself and a variety of other musicians - they are all excellent, get "Wright's Humours" if you want to hear his approach to Playford ) By the way, the Barnes book is an excellent start for an English Playford musicians as well, it's not as popular over here as in the States but that probably has more to do with the difficulty of getting hold of it than anything else. My feeling is that the American Playford tradition is different to the English Playford tradition, ditto for the contra and square dance traditions. I have American friends who have come out of the American night at Sidmouth without recognising 'their' tradition. As I said before, we do not have the same split between contra, square and Playford that you seem to have in the States ( I'll be very happy to hear of areas where this isn't the case ). This was brought home to me when I went over to Seattle in 1994 and got three bookings in Seattle on consecutive nights. I was worried that the dancers in Seattle would get sick of the sound of my voice but since one of the dances was contras at the Ballard Eagles, one was the Friday English dance and the other was Scotsbroome there was very little overlap between them. This is also an indication of the size of the dance scene in Seattle. One of my most embarassing experiences was calling at Folklife when I asked a room full of contra dancers to start a reel for four. Nobody moved, 300 dancers in the Roadhouse not moving make an awful lot of silence! Luckily, Phil Katz was dancing and shouted out 'hey' very loudly - everyone moved! Apart from the fact that over here we tend to use hey and reel interchangably I would also expect most 'experienced' dancers over here to be familiar with the common terms used in Playford, square and contra dances, even if the dancers themselves had a preference for one dance form. One night stands These are dances for people who are not regular dancers. Howard Mitchell has already described the sort of events that he has played for. The evening consists of simple dances - dances that everyone can join in with without needing any experience. They tend to be traditional English dances, or maybe dances written in a traditional style - see the early Community Dance Manuals for examples of these. I tend not to call any Playford dances at these events although I know some callers who do some of the simpler dances. I also don't call any contras or indeed any longways dances ( too much work explaining the progression and changing numbers at the end ), again I do know callers who do call simple longways though - the emphasis is very much on dances that are quick to walk through and fun to dance. I have no idea whether this is done at all in the States, perhaps someone can enlighten me. Anyway, I've already written far too much which is worrying ( the more I write, the bigger the chances are that I've said something stupid ). To conclude completely subjectively, there are elements in the UK and US dances scenes that I love and elements that I don't love so much. If only the transatlantic air fare were cheaper and I had more time I'd be quite happy to spend my life flitting between the UK and the US getting the best ( in my opinion ) out of both dance scenes. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 02:34:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:33:40 -0300 (BST) From: Interface Analysis Centre Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Newcastle To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear All, Has anyone ever been walked through Newcastle? The other week at Whitby, we had another example of a caller getting people up into four couple squares, then saying the dance was newcastle, then getting the music to start up and that was about it, depsite some shouts from the dance floor. There was calling while the dance was happening, but if you have four couples who don't know where they are going without some warning in advance, all you get is a set (or more) walking off the dance floor. When did this "tradition" of not calling Newcastle come about???? Keith --- Interface Analysis Centre, University of Bristol, Oldbury House, 121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England Telephone: +44 (0)117 925 5666 | Facsimile: +44 (0)117 925 5646 | URL: http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/research/iac/home.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 03:20:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 03:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I8ZLMJ13AQ0002LN-AT- UG.EDS.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'll add one observation to Bob's; I think that the US distinguish Playford from Contra and hence tend to do the slower Playford (and more triple minor) dances than the English, and the more energetic contras (demanding two swings). Since the English dance both they grumble that energetic contras are too much work, and that slow Playford is too slow. Having said I would make one observation, I'll make another and say that Americans do contras for longer than the English. Tony Parkes caused much comment when he did some dance 20+ times through at Sidmouth; as Bob said the English clubs usually dance to records, which typically go through 7 times. I have seen a US caller signal 5 more times to a band; I don't think an English one would ever signal more than twice more. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 04:06:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:05:28 +0000 From: Howard Mitchell Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609021106.MAA01125-AT- zeus.tcp.net.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Keith Hallam asked: > Has anyone ever been walked through Newcastle? > The other week at Whitby, we had another example of a caller getting people up > into four couple squares, then saying the dance was newcastle, then getting the > music to start up and that was about it, depsite some shouts from the dance floor. > There was calling while the dance was happening, but if you have four couples who > don't know where they are going without some warning in advance, all you get is a > set (or more) walking off the dance floor. > When did this "tradition" of not calling Newcastle come about???? I too was at that dance at Whitby and I do think that the caller misjudged his audience. I can remember Newcastle being uncalled in 1971(?) at the Reading Intervarsity Festival and in the intervening years have heard callers say 'Newcastle for those who know it', usually in response to requests from the floor. I don't think this reflects well on the ability of the caller or on his judgment of the audience. Perhaps we have here a dowside to the mixed-ability audiences in the UK when compared with the US. But to redress the balance, I think the number of occasions where I've seen Newcastle appropriately called outnumber other occurences. Howard Mitchell ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 05:56:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:52:35 +0000 From: Bob Archer Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <841665457.25390.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hugh wrote: > I'll add one observation to Bob's; I think that the US distinguish > Playford from Contra and hence tend to do the slower Playford (and more > triple minor) dances than the English, and the more energetic contras > (demanding two swings). Since the English dance both they grumble that > energetic contras are too much work, and that slow Playford is too slow. I must admit the 'standard' Playford repertoire in the States differs quite considerably from the 'standard' repertoire over here. > Having said I would make one observation, I'll make another and say that > Americans do contras for longer than the English. Tony Parkes caused > much comment when he did some dance 20+ times through at Sidmouth; as > Bob said the English clubs usually dance to records, which typically go > through 7 times. I have seen a US caller signal 5 more times to a band; > I don't think an English one would ever signal more than twice more. I've actually increased the number of times through I let contras run as a result of calling and dancing in the U.S. Basically, if a dance is going well and the dancers are enjoying it I don't see much point in stopping it. Even with this change of attitude though I'm still only running contras through for about 12 times, rather than the 20+ I have encountered in the U.S. Just out of interest, does the increase in length apply to Playford as well? How many times through would an American caller do a longways Playford dance? ( say Indian Queen ). If the dance were a three couple set dance ( the Alderman's Hat springs to mind ) would it be done 3 times, 6, 9 or even 12? Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 06:14:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:14:59 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Just out of interest, does the increase in length apply to Playford >as well? How many times through would an American caller do a >longways Playford dance? ( say Indian Queen ). More like 12 times than 20; certainly not like the interminble contras. >If the dance were a >three couple set dance ( the Alderman's Hat springs to mind ) would >it be done 3 times, 6, 9 or even 12? Three couple dances are very often done twice through; that seems not to be the case with square or four-couple dances (though w.r.t. Newcastle, that is often done twice through, especially if it is done for those who "know" -- but maybe are using the first round to remind themselves!) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 07:14:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:29:05 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <322AFD41.75E4-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <841665457.25390.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Dear All - Yesterday afternoon I attended a lovely 'English Country' dance called by Robin Hayden that, while not being a Playford Ball, was a very similar program for here in the US: many lovely, flowing dances with some set (3 couple) dances and a circle mixer included. However, from reading the posts from Howard Mitchell and others, I'm beginning to believe that there are some inherent problems with such a program: the general energy level of the dancers seems to flag as the program goes on because of the dreamy, mesmerizing quality of the dances. If we took a page from the UK callers' book, we would mix in more traditional dances (Community Dance Manual?) that would raise the level of enthusiasm of the dancers - not to mention the band - and would contribute to the whole evening. I'm not sure when we, in the US, stopped dancing the traditional dances at an 'English' dance - when I started dancing 15 years ago, a program included both - but we know-nothings lumped all of them into the 'contra' category (whose origins were unimportant). So as the years progressed, the separation, at least in local dances, became more and more defined. In Amherst, Massachusetts, where I have been living for the past 3 years, there has been a dance on Monday nights for years. The format was half 'English' (Playford style) and half contra (very possibly some traditional English was thrown in then too). When the hall was changed to a non-wood floor due to unfortunate circumstances, the format changed to all 'English' and all the traditional dances (if there were any) were dropped. After reading all the various posts, I think that we have done our own local dances a real disservice. This is even more reinforced by the evening dance selection at Pinewoods Camp English Week this year, which really mixed up the kinds of dances to many people's delight and others' dismay - and yes, as Rich Jackson says, there are many who head for the side when a rant is called, but there are also those who hunger for it - Mary Beth. Who should be excluded? No one! Or everyone - sometime or other. Perhaps part of the reason that the average age of English dancers in the US is getting up there is that we have eliminated traditional dances in our repertoire so often, and while those of us who embody the "full figure of eight" and are grey-haired might not dance all these dances, they would attract and keep the younger (contra) dancers who might then fall in love with the rest of the dances. I would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that programming is affecting attendence. This is a 'burning' issue for us in Amherst and would welcome any others' ideas. Thanks - Mary Jones Amherst, Mass. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:24:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:27:04 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well said Mary! I think your point about pleasing all people is well taken - so what if people have to sit out a dance - socializing is a good thing too. When I choose to sit out a dance, I enjoy watching the people dancing and chatting with people on the sidelines. I agree with Mary that we have lost something by pushing "Traditional" or "Community" dances aside and somehow promoting the notion that if it isn't Playford it's worth sneering at. And I agree that many people new to English might be drawn in by these joyful dances. I mentioned to my husband Ron about this discussion and he said - I don't like _those_ dances. This does not surprise me. He is rather solemn in his dancing style, although he is otherwise a pretty good dancer... (am I digging myself a hole here????) Well, *I* do enjoy traditional dances - I don't do all of them but I always enjoy the ones I do. I think it takes a certain committment to letting yourself have a good time while dancing - being able to let yourself "go" and have fun. And as Mary said, I do love to rant - who knows why? It is a real change from all the smooth gliding dances, even those done with power and verve. Guess balance is good in all things. And just as experiencing a full range of emotions is a good thing in life, perhaps experiencing the full range of English Dance is too. Mary Beth Goodman <-- rant til you can't ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:56:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Mary E Jones wrote: > Perhaps part of the reason that the average age of English dancers in > the US is getting up there is that we have eliminated traditional dances > in our repertoire so often, and while those of us who embody the "full > figure of eight" and are grey-haired might not dance all these dances, > they would attract and keep the younger (contra) dancers who might then > fall in love with the rest of the dances. > > I would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that programming is > affecting attendence. This is a 'burning' issue for us in Amherst and > would welcome any others' ideas. I would say emphatically yes. Our local dance has been "all-Playford, all the time" since its inception, and attendance has been quite sparse, and the age group has been almost entirely over-40. Not to know over 40 (I turn 46 myself on Friday), but if this is going to continue for very long it needs to be attracting younger dancers, who are now going only to contra and swing. Interestingly enough, a few months ago our callers began consciously incorporating a greater number of the more vigorous and aerobic Playford dances into the repertoire, programming evenings to be about half-and-half "vigorous" and "stately". Interestingly enough, the attendance has picked up quite noticeably, and our retention rate of new dancers has gone up as well. Plus the band is having lots of fun with the variety. I too would like to see us include some traditional dances; maybe one of these days! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 16:31:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:36:59 -0500 From: sheilab-AT- tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dance Band Workshop, New Haven CT 9/14 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Renowned violinist MARSHALL BARRON will be leading a dance band workshop for instrumentalists (interested dancers/callers welcomed, too) on Saturday, September 14, from 1-4 PM at the Neighborhood Music School, 100 Audubon Street, New Haven CT. For complete details including fees and specific repertoire to be covered, please contact Marshall directly: 203/776.6929 or write to her at 100 York Street #15E, New Haven CT 06510. [sent in by Sheila Beardslee Bosworth, because Marshall B is not on-line....yet] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:58:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 19:58:32 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960902195832.20d2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: 7 times through a contra. IMHO, I think Americans tend to do contras more than 7 times for 2 reasons: >They would like the dance to last longer than the time it took to learn it. >It's fun to the #1 couple in many contras. This is true when the ones do something while the twos just stand there. "The Female Saylor" is one striking example of a longways where the twos pick their noses while the ones zap up through the couple above, down around the second, etc. Then the twos come alive for a startling moment or two then go back to their noses. Some of the more traditional contras are guilty of some of the same sins. The trend to equal movements among (amoung?) all couples is something I approve and enjoy. Ted Sannella's "Holiday Jig" comes to mind but there are so many others. Anyway, length is sometimes dictated by custom of the event (Berea Christmas School is one of many longer dance week type of occasions. Contras tend to be fairly long there, and even a medly of two contras is not unusual.) Let me also lead a long, loud, well-enunciated cheer for the trend towar non-genter specific calling. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:41:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:32:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903082936.32df8c56-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 10:33 AM 9/2/96 -0300, you wrote: >Dear All, > >Has anyone ever been walked through Newcastle? >The other week at Whitby, we had another example of a caller getting people up >into four couple squares, then saying the dance was newcastle, then getting the >music to start up and that was about it, depsite some shouts from the dance floor. >There was calling while the dance was happening, but if you have four couples who >don't know where they are going without some warning in advance, all you get is a >set (or more) walking off the dance floor. >When did this "tradition" of not calling Newcastle come about???? > >Keith >--- >Interface Analysis Centre, University of Bristol, Oldbury House, >121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England >Telephone: +44 (0)117 925 5666 | Facsimile: +44 (0)117 925 5646 | >URL: http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/research/iac/home.html > > > > > Keith Here in the states we always walk thru each dance. Our EC group is varied enough in experience that a caller could not count on the dancers knowing the dance. This brings up a related question. We perform at a renaissance festival once a year. During these performances we do not use a caller but learn the dances. I have a great deal of difficulty relating a dance to it's name. Once the dance is underway then I remember it but the first couple of figures can be hard to remember. I look to the others for clues. How does an experienced dancer remember what "Newcastle" consists of? Harold __o _`\<, (*)/(*) ----------------- cheyney.1-AT- osu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:41:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:32:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903082937.32df3444-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 01:27 PM 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Well said Mary! > >I think your point about pleasing all people is well taken - so what if >people have to sit out a dance - socializing is a good thing too. When I >choose to sit out a dance, I enjoy watching the people dancing and chatting >with people on the sidelines. > >I agree with Mary that we have lost something by pushing "Traditional" or >"Community" dances aside and somehow promoting the notion that if it isn't >Playford it's worth sneering at. And I agree that many people new to >English might be drawn in by these joyful dances. > >I mentioned to my husband Ron about this discussion and he said - I don't >like _those_ dances. This does not surprise me. He is rather solemn in his >dancing style, although he is otherwise a pretty good dancer... (am I >digging myself a hole here????) > >Well, *I* do enjoy traditional dances - I don't do all of them but I always >enjoy the ones I do. I think it takes a certain committment to letting >yourself have a good time while dancing - being able to let yourself "go" >and have fun. > >And as Mary said, I do love to rant - who knows why? It is a real change >from all the smooth gliding dances, even those done with power and verve. > >Guess balance is good in all things. And just as experiencing a full range >of emotions is a good thing in life, perhaps experiencing the full range of >English Dance is too. > >Mary Beth Goodman <-- rant til you can't > > > > Mary Beth, Our EC group is heavily Playford most of the time. Once in a while someone in the group brings a youth group from his/her church to the dance. On those evenings the caller changes to exuberant traditional dances for much of the evening. I just love those evenings. Contra dancing is my first love and these dances more closely approach that. Some of the Playford dances get a bit complex to be fun although I do enjoy the mental challenge they provide. Harold __o _`\<, (*)/(*) ----------------- cheyney.1-AT- osu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:52:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:48:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903084556.32df641c-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 01:53 PM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Mary E Jones wrote: > >> Perhaps part of the reason that the average age of English dancers in >> the US is getting up there is that we have eliminated traditional dances >> in our repertoire so often, and while those of us who embody the "full >> figure of eight" and are grey-haired might not dance all these dances, >> they would attract and keep the younger (contra) dancers who might then >> fall in love with the rest of the dances. >> >> I would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that programming is >> affecting attendence. This is a 'burning' issue for us in Amherst and >> would welcome any others' ideas. > >I would say emphatically yes. Our local dance has been "all-Playford, all >the time" since its inception, and attendance has been quite sparse, and >the age group has been almost entirely over-40. Not to know over 40 (I >turn 46 myself on Friday), but if this is going to continue for very long >it needs to be attracting younger dancers, who are now going only to >contra and swing. > >Interestingly enough, a few months ago our callers began consciously >incorporating a greater number of the more vigorous and aerobic Playford >dances into the repertoire, programming evenings to be about >half-and-half "vigorous" and "stately". Interestingly enough, the >attendance has picked up quite noticeably, and our retention rate of new >dancers has gone up as well. Plus the band is having lots of fun with the >variety. > >I too would like to see us include some traditional dances; maybe one of >these days! > >Peace. >Paul > > Paul A church youth group visits our ECD group from time to time. On those nights the emphasis changes from "stately" to "vigorous". Those are my favorite evenings. I am also a contra dancer. Lately I have been thinking "Why not combine contra and ECD?". Some recent contributors to this group have mentioned that in some venues they used to be combined but have since split. Harold __o _`\<, (*)/(*) ----------------- cheyney.1-AT- osu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 06:35:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:33:38 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960903083338.20d2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Does the "Newcastle" no-walk-through apply to "Nonesuch" as well? While attending a delightful week at Halsway Manor (England) some years ago, we got into formation and the music started. There may have been calling for the turn, but I don't remember. I do remember that the "natives" step "briskly" into the long line (you remember, it's the one just before arming, and someone always forgets arming just before slipping). It is not considered good form to jump and stomp into the long line, as we often see in the states. Forbes/Baker University DOL ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:36:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 08:29:11 From: MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Noo Shoos To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9608038417.AA841764551-AT- labts.la.btsint.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I live for the events that have wood floors! :) Thanks ever so! Meg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:44:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:44:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609031544.KAA20162-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Harold Cheyney writes: >Our EC group is heavily Playford most of the time. Once in a while someone >in the group brings a youth group from his/her church to the dance. On >those evenings the caller changes to exuberant traditional dances for much >of the evening. I just love those evenings. Contra dancing is my first >love and these dances more closely approach that. Some of the Playford >dances get a bit complex to be fun although I do enjoy the mental challenge >they provide. I'm fairly new to ECD/Playford. Could someone list some examples of these "exuberant traditional dances"? Since our group is very new we haven't yet (hopefully) fallen into the all-Playford trap that everyone is talking about. We try to keep the tempos up and provide a variety of formations and dance types at our evenings. Any suggestions of books and other sources for these dances? Thanks. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:53:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:57:11 -0700 From: dssweet-AT- okway.okstate.edu (Deborah Sweet) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <22C70D60.1991-AT- okway.okstate.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harold wrote: >This brings up a related question. We perform at a renaissance festival >once a year. During these performances we do not use a caller but learn >the dances. I have a great deal of difficulty relating a dance to it's >name. Once the dance is underway then I remember it but the first couple >of figures can be hard to remember. I look to the others for clues. >How does an experienced dancer remember what "Newcastle" consists of? In my region of the SCA we try to not use callers during dancing. Calling is for the teaching time. IMHO, some people just have the natural ability to remember the name of a dance, the steps involved, and recognize the music. Other people can only link any two of these three items, and some people can't link any of them. But once they've started the dance most people go, "Yes, I remember this one!" So you're not alone with your problem. What works for one person to help them remember will not necessarily work for another. I seem to have the ability to remember steps, dance name and music with ease, but then I also have been teaching the dances. Teaching probably reinforces the natural memory capabilities in myself. But as well, I've got all these dance instruction books (and tapes) that I can look at at any time, thus reinforcing the association of name, steps, and music. Not everyone has access to this reinforcement or wants to take the time to do this. Perhaps as an aid to yourself, you could get your local instructor to make a tape of the dances you'll be doing at the festival, and record the name of the dance, and the dance instructions over the music, if possible. Repeatedly playing the tape may reinforce the dances over time. Or something else entirely may work better for you. Debby Sweet ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:14:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:10:13 -0500 (EDT) From: jshelby-AT- ais.autometric.com (Joe Shelby) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609031610.MAA01827-AT- ais> Content-Type: text Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Harold wrote: > > >This brings up a related question. We perform at a renaissance festival > >once a year. During these performances we do not use a caller but learn > >the dances. I have a great deal of difficulty relating a dance to it's > >name. Once the dance is underway then I remember it but the first couple > >of figures can be hard to remember. I look to the others for clues. > >How does an experienced dancer remember what "Newcastle" consists of? > > In my region of the SCA we try to not use callers during dancing. > Calling is for the teaching time. IMHO, some people just have the > natural ability to remember the name of a dance, the steps involved, and > recognize the music. Other people can only link any two of these three > items, and some people can't link any of them. But once they've started > the dance most people go, "Yes, I remember this one!" So you're not > alone with your problem. my trick is to look for patterns...in the case of Newcastle or Nonesuch, its realizing and remembering that the U.S.A. pattern (_U_p a double and back, _S_iding, _A_rming) is still there and keeping it separate in my head...works for most of the non-progressive dances. once i've got that, the music usually reinforces/reminds when there is or isn't a "set and turn single" (or just a turn, as in Gathering Peascods). From there, treat the rest as a chorus, which in the case of the early Playfords, is usually unique each time, but very often flows or still has a pattern that can be seen, like the heys of Grimstock. the harder dances our group (markland & SCA related, performs at the local renfest among other events) performs are the ones without those patterns, like Trip to Tunbridge and Step Stately. Morris dance also often has U.S.A. type patterns (Bantam: half-gyp, whole-gyp; Bucknell: half-gyp, back-to-back; etc...), but does have the advantage that in most traditions the chorus is the same each repetition of a particular dance. :) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5520 Cherokee Ave, Suite 210, Alexandria, VA 22312 (703) 658-6127 http://www.io.com/~acroyear Big Time Television: All Day, Every Day, Making Tomorrow Seem Like Yesterday! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:20:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:20:40 -0400 (EDT) From: M.Beth.Lewis-AT- Dartmouth.EDU (M. Beth Lewis) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <22957610-AT- cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT SIGNOFF ECD ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:34:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:35:54 -0700 From: dssweet-AT- okway.okstate.edu (Deborah Sweet) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <22C7A1B0.1991-AT- okway.okstate.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joseph wrote: >my trick is to look for patterns...in the case of Newcastle or Nonesuch, its >realizing and remembering that the U.S.A. pattern (_U_p a double and back, >_S_iding, _A_rming) is still there and keeping it separate in my >head...works for most of the non-progressive dances. once i've got that, ROTFL, I've never heard it called that! Maybe if I use "U.S.A." at the next dance practice, it'll help someone remember that dance sequence of doubles-siding-arming better. Debby ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:36:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 17:35:14 +0000 From: Howard Mitchell Subject: Fourteen New Country Dances for 1791 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609031636.RAA23588-AT- zeus.tcp.net.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have come across three hand written sheets with a note at the top: 'taken from a fan exhibited at Platt Hall (Manchester) 1964. Fan used as aide memoire' The sheets are entitled 'Fourteen New Dances for 1791 with their proper figures as performed at Court, Bath and all public Assemblys. Published as the act directs by E Sucklow (or Scicllow or Swallow) 13th Decmber 1790' and contain music and brief description of nine dances (not fourteen, perhaps there's a sheet missing). The dances are: Revolution de la France The British Flag Westminster Election The Greenwich Pensioner The Shrubery Bucks of Europa The Triple Alliance The Ultimatum Baroness Nagel's Fancy Does anyone know if these have been published either from the original or from these notes on the fan? Howard Mitchell ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:39:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:36:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903123347.0f771958-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 08:29 AM 9/3/96, you wrote: > > I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on > concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone > have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset > a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And > please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am > limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I > live for the events that have wood floors! :) > > Thanks ever so! > Meg > > I have a pair of shoes with crepe soles that seem to work well as long as the surface is smooth. They provide quite a bit of cushon. I danced on rough concrete once this summer and that was a challenge since I couldn't slide at all. Harold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:35:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:38:37 -0600 From: seniort-AT- newtrier.k12.il.us (Thomas J. Senior) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on > concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone > have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset > a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And > please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am > limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I > live for the events that have wood floors! :) > > Thanks ever so! > Meg I use walking shoes - Rockport has fairly dressy leather ones - that give good support and a fair amount of cushioning. Jogging shoes might help, but they tend to be VERY obviously sporty. Those who can, do. Those who understand, teach. Thomas J. Senior New Trier High School 1232 St. Johns Ave 385 Winnetka Ave Highland Park, IL 60035-3425 Winnetka, IL 60093-4295 847-433-8704 847-446-7000 x2128 seniort-AT- newtrier.k12.il.us ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:56:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: bolker-AT- phoenix.Princeton.EDU Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 15:38:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: web page for English dances in Titusville, NJ To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT greetings to all! i've just added the new schedule for the "first friday" english dance series run by the lambertville country dancers onto lcd's web page. take a peek at http://eno.princeton.edu/~ben/lcd/main.html if you have web access. i welcome comments on the construction of the page. my thanks to ben bolker for hosting it. - susie lorand (using ben bolker's e-mail address, bolker-AT- phoenix.princeton.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:21:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:12:21 +0200 From: Martin Kiff Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <$LkblDAlEJLyEw+z-AT- webfeet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >As I see it, the UK scene splits into three sections - Ceilidh, Dance >and one night stand. I shall attempt to provide a brief overview: Whups.. a fragment of discussion about English Ceilidh and I almost missed it... Perhaps one difference between the dance scenes is that in the UK we do have _different_ names for the high-energy folk dance and the more cerebral/low impact variety. Does calling them 'Ceilidh' and 'Dance' mean that they will continue to diverge? It is a foolhardy caller (or John Kirkpatrick) who attempts a triple-minor in a ceilidh and you get very, very little Reggae in the 'dance' circles... :-) I wonder whether this is a good thing, whether the popularity of English Ceilidh will feed through to the dance community as the knees and ankles get older or whether by that time the two sides will be so far apart as to be in different worlds. The bright spot on the horizon here are bands like Junction 24 who play for both Ceilidh and Dance (although they advertise as J24 or J24 'in dance mode') showing that it is still possible to have a dance with a good swing. (As a disclaimer - the Ceilidh I know is mainly southern English, Scottish Ceilidh, I gather, is quite different) Regards, Martin Kiff English Ceilidh information under http://www.ftech.co.uk/~webfeet/ mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:38:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:36:45 -0400 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (A., C., & M. Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609032336.TAA27368-AT- vicon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Debby wrote: >Joseph wrote: >> ... the U.S.A. pattern (_U_p a double and back, _S_iding, _A_rming) ... >ROTFL, I've never heard it called that! I never have either. I tend to call it "sidearm." This is more generally useful, because it covers the dances where the first figure is circle left two doubles or meet a double and back. By the way, one of the "sidearm" dances from Playford is named The Gun. Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:32:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:31:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com wrote: > I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on > concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone > have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset > a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! I had the same problem at Pennsic--a few dances on the concrete floor and I felt like I had shin splints. The shoes that really helped were a pair of walking shoes that I got at KMart to wear for Morris dancing. There was enough padding and support that they were comfortable, and felt like a really thick pair of jazz shoes (my other preferred footwear) would probably feel. --Kimberly ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:09:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 01:09:06 -0400 From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960903231858_276558615-AT- emout08.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-03 11:43:04 EDT, Meg Miller wrote: << I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? >> In addition to shoes with well-cushioned soles, impact-absorbing inserts may help. The ones that have worked for me are "Sorbothane", available at sporting goods stores and shops that sell shoes for athetics. They come in different thicknesses, and can be used either to supplement or replace the inserts already in your shoes. Do try them on in the shoes they're intended for before buying them, though; they take up space, and you may find you need a larger shoe size. Good luck! Carol Martinez White Plains, N.Y. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 00:25:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:29:03 -0500 From: gapbob-AT- cris.com (Bob Borcherding) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >> I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on >> concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone >> have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset >> a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And >> please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am >> limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I >> live for the events that have wood floors! :) >> >> Thanks ever so! >> Meg I've seen a fellow from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, put round-headed screws (Philips head, I imagine) at several locations in his running shoes. The shoes give enough cushion, whereas the screws (perhaps six) reduce the friction. Seemed like a good idea. I suppose everyone would have a different number of screws for optimal friction. Of course, you wouldn't want to do this to your everday shoes, nor wear them on wooden floors! bob borcherding gapbob-AT- cris.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 04:15:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:15:51 -0400 From: nparr-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu (Nancy Parr (Hitchcock Center)) Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609041115.HAA21191-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >I've seen a fellow from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, put round-headed screws >(Philips head, I imagine) at several locations in his running shoes. The >shoes give enough cushion, whereas the screws (perhaps six) reduce the >friction. Seemed like a good idea. I suppose everyone would have a >different number of screws for optimal friction. Of course, you wouldn't >want to do this to your everday shoes, nor wear them on wooden floors! > > >bob borcherding >gapbob-AT- cris.com Wow. It's too early in the a.m. for this sort of list topic overlap! With sorbathane inserts and screws it sounds like the running list. Runners put flat-headed hex screws in the soles of running shoes for running on ice. Be sure to use short ones. However, I find that they make the shoes slippery on clear pavement or cement, and wouldn't dream of trying to dance them. Also there is great potential for damaging surfaces, the reason studded snow tires are illegal out of season. You sure this dancer wasn't really a runner who took a wrong turn at the light? Nancy Parr > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:09:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:05:30 -0500 From: Tom Roby Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9609041605.AA03484-AT- alpha3.math.wisc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I highly recommend Spenco insoles, particularly theflat, green variety, which last indefinitely, don't absorb oder, and make a remarkable difference in all my dance shoes. I put them in all my regular shoes as well. They are generally available in large or athletic shoesstores, and athletic specialty stores. There are now lots of different styles (with arch supports, etc.) if you care to experiment. For English I usually use one of two kinds of shoes around my Spenco insoles: Capezzio Jazz Oxfords, which are good for pivoting and tacky surfaces but don't provide much support, and Rockport (Rocksport) ProWalkers, which have more support, more cushion, and better traction on the floor. I always try to have the latter on hand (foot?) when heading for a variable or unfamiliar floor. If you like the Capezzios, I recommend getting the style with the rubber heel, which gives you more traction (without interfering with pivoting) than the style where the entire sole is suede. Good luck! Tom ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:21:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:17:41 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Tempos To: The Dupres (Return requested), ECD List (Return requested) Message-ID: <"01F8D322DC7C502C*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Note back to Sue - How fascinating it is to try to describe tempos with words! I agree with you that Colliers Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but it also has a feel to me that is "rompy" , but perhaps there is a better word. to describe what the 1's are doing in the A part - there is a certain joyousness and playfullness in the "pull by" out of a 2 hand turn and going below to meet (not rushed) just in time with the music for the next 2 hand turn - and then they get to do it again! I did like your comment about finding the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance, I will add it to my other two moments that I look for when teaching a dance - the magic moment (or moments!) in each dance and the moment which is likely to give the dancers the most problems (e.g., timing, locational, unusual, habit breaking, etc.) ---------- From: The Dupres To: 'ECD List' Subject: Tempos Date: Saturday, August 31, 1996 5:14PM Good evening, all! To John Forbes' list please add a critical parameter: > The figures of the dance As Gene Murrow suggested in his English dance leadership week last year at Pinewoods, find the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance and set the tempo by that figure. As an example (and pet peeve of mine), I really dislike rushed setting - setting loses energy, spring and athleticism when the tempo is too fast. So I would choose a tempo for a dance with setting based to a large extent on the existence of that figure. (Not surprisingly, I think balancing in contra dances has lost its power and rhythmicity (such a word?) because modern contra dance tempos are too fast to balance to, as I learned to balance in the late 70s). And a quick note to Nan: "Collier's Daughter" rompy?! What different experiences we all have of these dances! (either that, or how differently we all use the English language!) To me, Collier's Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but I'd never call it rompy, quite the contrary. What a surprise! Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:48:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:48:23 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: Tempos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A7DDF.70D3D002.27-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Nan said: How fascinating it is to try to describe tempos with words! I agree with you that Colliers Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but it also has a feel to me that is "rompy" , but perhaps there is a better word. to describe what the 1's are doing in the A part - there is a certain joyousness and playfullness in the "pull by" out of a 2 hand turn and going below to meet (not rushed) just in time with the music for the next 2 hand turn - and then they get to do it again! Interesting. I don't get the "rompy" feel there -- probably because of the smoothness of the music and the key it's in -- but I definitely get it in the same transition in "Jack's Health" using the "Bolt the Door" tune, though not with the original tune. I note that Fried Herman, in "Ease and Elegance", specifically discourages the use of "pull by" in ECD. (She describes an incident where the leader used "pull by", her partner really pulled, and she was injured.) I don't see any harm in it myself. She has an interesting 30 pages on her philosophy of dance, dance teaching, and dance construction, which is unlikely to inspire universal agreement but is good reading nonetheless. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:43:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:21:41 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: FW: Tempos To: ecd (Return requested) Message-ID: <"0708E322E00F5019*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---------- From: EVANS Nan E To: The Dupres; 'ECD List' Subject: RE: Tempos Date: Tuesday, September 03, 1996 12:14PM Note back to Sue - How fascinating it is to try to describe tempos with words! I agree with you that Colliers Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but it also has a feel to me that is "rompy" , but perhaps there is a better word. to describe what the 1's are doing in the A part - there is a certain joyousness and playfullness in the "pull by" out of a 2 hand turn and going below to meet (not rushed) just in time with the music for the next 2 hand turn - and then they get to do it again! I did like your comment about finding the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance, I will add it to my other two moments that I look for when teaching a dance - the magic moment (or moments!) in each dance and the moment which is likely to give the dancers the most problems (e.g., timing, locational, unusual, habit breaking, etc.) ---------- From: The Dupres To: 'ECD List' Subject: Tempos Date: Saturday, August 31, 1996 5:14PM Good evening, all! To John Forbes' list please add a critical parameter: > The figures of the dance As Gene Murrow suggested in his English dance leadership week last year at Pinewoods, find the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance and set the tempo by that figure. As an example (and pet peeve of mine), I really dislike rushed setting - setting loses energy, spring and athleticism when the tempo is too fast. So I would choose a tempo for a dance with setting based to a large extent on the existence of that figure. (Not surprisingly, I think balancing in contra dances has lost its power and rhythmicity (such a word?) because modern contra dance tempos are too fast to balance to, as I learned to balance in the late 70s). And a quick note to Nan: "Collier's Daughter" rompy?! What different experiences we all have of these dances! (either that, or how differently we all use the English language!) To me, Collier's Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but I'd never call it rompy, quite the contrary. What a surprise! Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:40:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:33:59 -0400 From: The Dupres Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BB9AA9.7DF3C9A0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi! Some of my thoughts in response to Jonathan's question: I don't have an extensive repertoire of "traditional dances" but I do love to include some in my programming. The ones in my repertoire (almost all of which are from the Community Dance Manuals) which I think of as exuberant are: The Foula Reel Pins and Needles La Russe Quadrille Virginia Reel Walpole Cottage The Willow Tree But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as exuberant. Without thinking about it too long, here's a quick short list, presented in no particular order at all: The Spaniard Christchurch Bells Mount Hills (from the Fallinbroome Collection) Highland Lilt (from the O'Neal Collection) The Young Widow The Hunting of Foxes (from "Country Dances of Colonial America" by Millar) Dublin Bay Hey, Boys, Up Go We Sellenger's Round The Physical Snob Got other suggestions? I'm not a big fan of dance programs that feature a predominance of romantic, soppy, schmaltzy, flowing dances but I have a great love for many Playford, Playford-style and other historic dances, especially early Playford, and hate to see the whole Playford genre take a bad rap. If you need further information about sources for these dances, please let me know. Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:52:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Films-- Regency Conga? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just finished viewing "Princess Caraboo". The dancing in the ball scene includes one which has Prinny getting everyone into a single-file sort of conga line through the premises. Is this something real of the period? Will ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:04:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 22:19:04 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <322E46A8.52F0-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <01BB9AA9.7DF3C9A0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> The Dupres wrote: > > > But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances > to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as > exuberant. > Highland Lilt (from the O'Neal Collection) Sue - I have had difficulty with the music for this dance and am not sure how it fits. Rich Jackson: are you listening? My edition of the Neal book has 8 bars of music not marked A or B but the bars given in the dance directions indicate 8 bars for an A music and 8 bars for a B section. I would very much like to do this dance but haven't come to any consensus about it. Is the B missing? Is the music really A1, A2, A3, A4, B1, B2, B3, B4? Help! (And Rich, I promise to dance with your little boy any ole day, if you can figure this out for me - actually I would gladly dance with him even if you don't!) Mother Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:23:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:20:18 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Pull By To: ecd (Return requested) Message-ID: <"06A9F322E38E2004*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan said - Fried's discussion in "Ease and Elegance" is an excellent read. But, another comment. There is no excuse for one dancer harming another in any move - a "pull by" or any other. This is one instance when regardless of the terms a teacher uses, a dancer should be dancing in a way to avoid hurting others (of course, accidents do happen, but. we all need to be very aware of/responsible for our movements and actions.) Fried also says that she prefers the elbow turn when doing arming rather than the forearm hold, because of injuries she has received from dancers pinching or gripping so hard that her arm was bruised. I personally like the forearm hold for some dances, it gives me a better sense of connection. I think as a teacher one of my responsibilities is to instill the awareness in the dancers not to give discomfort to others regardless of the specific move. This also applies to an awareness that different dance partners will have different sensitivities and physical limitations. As to the "pull by" in Colliers Daughter. The other option is to drop hands (or disconnect) out of the 2 hand turn and then cross the set without a physical connection between the 1's. I really like to maintain the connection and energy that flows out of the 2 hand turn, a pull by makes sense to me. Nan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:44:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: 'ECD List' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, The Dupres wrote: > But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances > to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as > exuberant. Without thinking about it too long, here's a quick short list, > presented in no particular order at all: [snipped the list] > Got other suggestions? Well, I've always thought "Take a Dance" exuberant, and around here, at least, "Trip to Paris" usually turns into a minor riot. > I'm not a big fan of dance programs that feature a predominance of > romantic, soppy, schmaltzy, flowing dances but I have a great love for many > Playford, Playford-style and other historic dances, especially early > Playford, and hate to see the whole Playford genre take a bad rap. Same here; I for one don't want to give Playford a bad rap, just want to see other dances *in addition to* Playford. (As a musician, I love playing the Playford tunes better than any music I have ever played. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying other things too.) Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 02:24:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:45:40 +0100 From: Rhodri Davies Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9609050845.AA00358-AT- michigan.esoft.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01BB9AA9.7DF3C9A0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> The Dupres writes: > Hi! Some of my thoughts in response to Jonathan's question: I don't have > an extensive repertoire of "traditional dances" but I do love to include > some in my programming. The ones in my repertoire (almost all of which are > from the Community Dance Manuals) which I think of as exuberant are: > > The Willow Tree ...... > But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances > to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as > exuberant. Without thinking about it too long, here's a quick short list, > presented in no particular order at all: > > Mount Hills (from the Fallinbroome Collection) > Highland Lilt (from the O'Neal Collection) ...... > > Got other suggestions? > Calling the Willow tree a traditional dance may be stretching the description a little, though I grant that it is almost universally regarded as such. If memory serves me correctly (I don't have my source material at work), it is based on a traditional Dutch dance called "Gort Med Stroop", but the version in common use was really put together by Hugh Rippon. This is, of course, assuming that it is the same dance on both sides of the Atlantic: 8 couple longways with some galloping ad a strip the willow to the middle. As for some more historic but exuberant dances: Alderman's Hat Miss Sayer's Allemande My Lord Byron's Maggot Geud Man of Ballangigh Rhod -- Dr. Rhodri M. Davies Tel: +44 (0)161 776 4498 Engineering Software Ltd Fax: +44 (0)161 776 2680 Carrington Business Park Email: rhodri.davies-AT- esoft.co.uk Manchester M31 4XL WWW: http://www.esoft.co.uk =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 05:21:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:19:52 -0400 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: An accumulation of thoughts To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609051219.IAA08357-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary: I don't have the Neal book here at work, I will try to remember to look it up for you. "Pulling by": I don't personally like a pull by in Collier's Daughter, I agree with Nan Evans, finish the turn and drop back. It definitely does have a time and place (Jack's Health) Injuring your partner: As a teacher I try to discourage this. When dancing you should be in control of your movements and working with your partner so something like a "pull by" or turning your partner under should be fairly safe. I have taken a cue from Scottish dancers for the fore-arm turn. They teach it with the thumb tucked in next to the rest of the fingers and the hand cupped under your partners elbow, instead of squeezing the forearm between fingers and thumb. I am also tempted to teach this with a contra-style turn at times. "Exuberant" dances: Old Noll's Jig Humors of Dublin (Neal book) Look Both Ways Elverton Grove etc., etc., etc. There is more than one teacher out there who doesn't teach skipping. Either leaving it to the collective memory of the dancers to remember that skipping belongs there, or "letting the dancers decide" when to skip. I never insist that a dancer skip in any part of the dance. I will recommend it either because it is tough to get through the dance in time without it, or because it is fun. ( A quote from a contra dancer after I taught Look Both Ways; "That was the best dance I have ever done that didn't have a swing in it") Tempi Please! Please! Please! Don't fall into the faulty logic trap: Contra dances are faster than English dances More people like Contra dances than like English dances. Therefore, if I make the English dances faster, more people will like them. How about the following logic: Basketball players play in shorts and dribble a ball More people like Basketball than Contra Dancing Therefore if we do contra dancing in shorts and dribbling a ball, more people will like it. I think the reason more people do Contra dancing than English dancing is that it is more approachable. The variety of steps and figures is more limited. It takes less teaching. English Dancing takes a little more work and thus requires a little more dedication. We shouldn't try to turn ECD into contra dancing any more than we should turn Contra Dancing into basketball. We should be finding the dancers who are interested in working a little harder for, in my opinion, a better dance experience. Rich Jackson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:26:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 09:14:48 From: MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Finding music To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9608058419.AA841940088-AT- labts.la.btsint.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have Country Capers on CD by the NY Ren Band, but that's only 25 dances -- more, more, MORE! Does anyone have a good source for recorded Playford music? I've had a friend record a couple tunes on his home synth system, but people mention all these dances I'm unfamiliar with (and boy, do y'all whet my appetite for more), and while I have 1st, 5th and 7th eds of Playford, without musica I'm pretty stuck. The only live music I have access to here in SCA-land have pretty much limited their repetoire to the dances they KNOW the mass of revelers will be able to do on any given evening -- Rufty Tufty, Heart's Ease, Peascods, Sellingers, Jenny PP -- if I want to do more, I need "mechanical minstrels." Thanks all for the shoe tips -- I'm definitely investing in some insoles (now that I actually know what I'm looking for!)! Much obliged! Meg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:34:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: GAFF-AT- neu.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I94DNT8MB290MTFT-AT- neu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Don't forget Old Noll's Jig, Fandango and Barham Down. Many dances are consistent with an exhuberent treatment, or have exhuberent sections. Terry Gaffney ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:56:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If you want to hear more good tunes, try the Broadside Band's recording on the Saydisc label, "English Country Dances". It may be available through CDSS, otherwise Saydisc is carried by many record stores that have a big classical section, and they can order it. The catalog number is CD-SDL 393. The distributor is Qualiton--that may help. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:03:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:59:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960905145607.473703fa-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 09:14 AM 9/5/96, you wrote: > > I have Country Capers on CD by the NY Ren Band, but that's only > 25 dances -- more, more, MORE! Does anyone have a good source > for recorded Playford music? I've had a friend record a couple > tunes on his home synth system, but people mention all these > dances I'm unfamiliar with (and boy, do y'all whet my appetite > for more), and while I have 1st, 5th and 7th eds of Playford, > without musica I'm pretty stuck. The only live music I have > access to here in SCA-land have pretty much limited their > repetoire to the dances they KNOW the mass of revelers will be > able to do on any given evening -- Rufty Tufty, Heart's Ease, > Peascods, Sellingers, Jenny PP -- if I want to do more, I need > "mechanical minstrels." > > Thanks all for the shoe tips -- I'm definitely investing in some > insoles (now that I actually know what I'm looking for!)! Much > obliged! > > Meg > > Broadside Band has a CD of Playford tunes. There are about 22 or so on it from various editions of Playford. I don't remember the exact title of the recording. Harold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:32:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I wonder after I've seen the postings on the subject of "exuberant traditional dances" whether people are using "traditional" in the same sense. The way that I have come to understand this term, and others frequently used to describe different phases of English Country Dance in its various forms, is: Playford: strictly, any of the dances published by either of the two Playfords who published dances from about 1651 to 1728; more broadly, any English Country Dances in the general style of the Playford known principally from other publications from the Playford-era up to the early part of the 19th. century. These dances in general have had to be reconstructed from these published sources; people were not doing these dances anywhere anymore as far as we are aware, when they were "rediscovered" at the beginning of this century. Traditional: old dances with many features similarities of form and movement to the Playford dances, but which were still being danced for social entertainment in parts of Britain and/or in places that had the same traditions of dancing; these had been "preserved" by the tradition itself, but we know them mostly from the works of people who collected them, & may have "standardized" them, when they wrote descriptions of what they saw. Other: I don't know a single, unique term for these, but there is at least a concept: dances written this century in connection with and in the spirit of the revivial of interest in ECD both for entertainment and as an art form, in which the elements of style which define Playford and Traditional English Country Dances are used in new compositions, such as the Maggott Pie dances and many creations of folks like Pat Shaw and contemporary dance composers such as Nicholas Broadbridge, Colin Hume, Fried Herman, and many others both in England and elsewhere. I usually call these "modern", "contemporary", or "20th century" ECD. I find than some of the dances which one finds at ceilidhs and barn dances are sufficiently removed from the stylistic elements that I would not call them "modern ECD" but perhaps just "modern English folk dance". What do others think (particularly across the puddle -- is this distinction at all appropriate? it seems to fit the division of dance events into ECD or non-ECD categories over here, but it sounds less useful for the UK...)? Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 17:12:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Actually, Broadside Band has several albums featuring "Playford". And check whether CDSS still has any of the Orange and Blue Band albums. There is also an album of ECD from the French label Atelier-Danse. One of these is an arrangement of "An Old Man is a Bed Full of Bones" scored to include "chante de diddeling" (mouth music). ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 17:20:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT How does one define "folk"? Bear in mind that very few "Playford dances" have proven origins in anything "folk"! Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:06:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:08:49 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609060309.XAA17767-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > How does one define "folk"? Bear in mind that very few "Playford > dances" have proven origins in anything "folk"! > > Julia Sutton I should know better than starting a discussion of what folk is. There are as many opinions as former Italian governments. But here goes anyway . . . I've always thought of "folk" as applying more to evolution than to origin. A folk song is folk because it has evolved through oral transmission, not because we were unable to trace it to the original author. The folklorist Ken Goldstein even maintained that a folk song stopped being folk when it stopped evolving. IMHO, contra dancing is a folk dance form because the dance form has evolved (and continues to evolve) through whatever you want to call the way we have collectively molded it over the years. It matters not that most of the dances we now do were composed recently by known authors. "Playford" ECD is an odd duck, having been intentionally recreated by Cecil Sharp out of a dance form, from the 17th and 18th centuries, that is not usually considered "folk." Nevertheless, it too has certainly evolved over the last 70 years and now even includes diverging regional styles. To the extent that callers call dances "the way we dance them" rather than by the book, I would argue that we can consider "Playford" ECD a "folk" dance form. Oddly, I've seen little evolution in traditional ECD. That may be because we don't do many traditional dances in our area. We tend to treat them like some exotic spice that we keep on the back shelf for years and use only rarely and sparingly to give a dish an unusual or special flavor. The situation is probably different in other dance communities. Just my highly-biased opinions. YMMV :-) ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:40:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:38:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD list Message-ID: <960906033804_71332.2116_GHL99-3-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Great to see Julia Sutton on the list! Welcome, Julia. Speaking of the difficulty in defining "folk", ECD-ers may have seen the review of Georgina Boyes "Imagined Village" in the CDSS Journal, or heard about it at the Amherst Assembly. This is a comprehensive, well-documented, and eye-opening history of Cecil Sharp's work, the English folk "Revival" and the E.F.D.S.S., with all skeletons brought out from many, many closets (Even that quintessential 1990's issue-- "gender balance"-- has had a long and tumultuous history. For example, Rolf Gardiner's founding of the Teutonic-influenced, all-male Morris Ring in the 30's was in good part a reaction to women's dominance in Revival Morris and country dance classes!) Until recently, the book was only available in a $79.95 university press edition, but it has just been issued in paperback by St. Martin's press for only $ 19.95. Well worth reading by all ECD and "ritual" dance enthusiasts. Wear your seat belt. Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:40:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:38:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Films-- Regency Conga? To: ECD list Message-ID: <960906033801_71332.2116_GHL99-2-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Will! Don't know anything of the film you referred to... I thought "Regency Conga" was a pretty good take on the cast followed by cast followed by cast followed by cast... ending to Mr. Beveridge's Maggot in the recent film of Jane Austen's "Emma" :-) !! Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:40:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD list Message-ID: <960906033759_71332.2116_GHL99-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In my opinion, Rich Jackson's brilliant contra/basketball analogy is right on. It also suggests a great new concept (in my perverted brain) -- a contest for the best English dance or contra which can be done while keeping a basketball dribbled throughout. I've done Geud Man of Ballangigh while playing the tune on an accordion all the way down the set-- probably could be done dribbling a basketball. Gives new meaning to "Playford Ball", consisting, of course, of "court dances". Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:08:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:09:58 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >In my opinion, Rich Jackson's brilliant contra/basketball analogy is right on. > >It also suggests a great new concept (in my perverted brain) -- a contest for >the best English dance or contra which can be done while keeping a basketball >dribbled throughout. Well, there *was* the CD*NY Mardi Gras dance a few years ago in which Sharon came up with the idea of combining Kitchen Triad with a pancake relay -- each active couple had to flip their (plastic lid) pancakes during the stars and then gracefully [sic] turn over the pans and pancakes to the next actives... But for enticing the younger set, basketball dances seem just the thing! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:41:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:28:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Mac McKeever , Jeanette Soleil , Margaret Goodman Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene Murrow's suggestion is a good one: choreograph a dance to be done while dribbling a basketball throughout. My intuitive guess is that this will work better as a contra than ECD, but I may be wrong. Going with that, let's think about which moves will work in such a context: WILL WORK: Allemandes Down hall and back as couples* Courtesy turn* Hey for four Right and left over Do-si-do (hell, they do that in basketball a lot already) Gypsy (if you're careful) WON't WORK: Balance? Swing Down hall and back four-in-line (at least not without some passing) Long lines forward and back Sashay California twirl MAYBE, MAYBE NOT: Box the gnat Stars The moves marked with asterisks will depend on who's carrying the ball(s). If both active man and active woman are dribbling basketballs, one of them will have to work righty, the other lefty, which will require some consideration in choosing partners. This could be fun. What happens to people guilty of travelling? Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 02:24:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:03:49 +0100 From: Rhodri Davies Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9609060903.AA02931-AT- michigan.esoft.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Paul J. Stamler writes: > Gene Murrow's suggestion is a good one: choreograph a dance to be done > while dribbling a basketball throughout. My intuitive guess is that this > will work better as a contra than ECD, but I may be wrong. Going with > that, let's think about which moves will work in such a context: > > WON't WORK: > Balance? I think this one might depend on which kind of balance you use :-) No if you are doing on the the English ceilidh kick balances you could pass the ball from side to side under your legs as you balance. Rhod ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:33:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:32:56 -0400 From: nparr-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu (Nancy Parr (Hitchcock Center)) Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609061132.HAA16222-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From Gene Murrow: >In my opinion, Rich Jackson's brilliant contra/basketball analogy is right on. > >It also suggests a great new concept (in my perverted brain) -- a contest for >the best English dance or contra which can be done while keeping a basketball >dribbled throughout. > >I've done Geud Man of Ballangigh while playing the tune on an accordion all the >way down the set-- probably could be done dribbling a basketball. Here in Amherst, cutting edge of dancing, we have in the past done whole dances keeping ballons aloft or passing nylons frisbees. With a bit of practice, our experienced dancers could extend their skills in this new direction. >Gives new meaning to "Playford Ball", consisting, of course, of "court dances". Also combined dance and basketball camps. Hey, throw in a bit of computer time and thousands of youngsters will sign up. Teachers can start doing ECD workshops for professional athletes. Half-time shows. What potential! [Seriously, the reason I dance contras *in addition* to ECD is that the fun and play factor tends to be higher in proportion to the lecture and "do it just so" factor. Maybe a little basketball wouldn't hurt! ;-)] Nancy Parr ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 05:07:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:05:28 -0400 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: At great risk To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609061205.IAA00689-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At the risk of stretching this discussion any further: If you shoot a three point shot in triple-time, do you get nine points? I want to hear Marv Albert doing the play-by-play: He casts, he shoots, he scores. I promise I will never use a sports analogy again!! Rich ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 05:34:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:34:26 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906073426.2344-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I'm re-reading Georginia Boyes' book just now and have just finished re- reading Roy Judge's very fine "Mary Neal and the Espérance Morris, the American Morris Newsletter reprint of 1993. Both are very fine consider- ations of the early revival situation. They make a fine contrast to the various hagiographies (portrayal of the subject as a saint?) one finds when trying to consider Cecil Sharp. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 06:24:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:24:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Then one could have choreographed professional & serious amateur basketball games, too. They'd be done somewhat like opera & ballet, with named stars in specific roles -- can't you imagine saying "Hey! They're doing `The Royal Dunk' and "Casting for Buckets" back-to-back down at the Playford Arena on Saturday with Michael Jordan [I think he's a basketball player, isn't he???] as Edward VI & The Bouncin' Billies playing!" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 06:33:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:32:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "David R. Woolf" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Atlanta's English Weekend To: ECD list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Once again . . . English Country Dance Atlanta presents the Second Annual Maggots, Gypsies, and Other Divertissements a weekend of English Country (and contra) Dance featuring . . . ********************************************* Earl Gaddis Jacqueline Schwab Daron Douglas with Brad Foster teaching and prompting ********************************************** $36 for the weekend (in advance) September 27, 28 & 29, 1996 Atlanta, Georgia You can find the brochure at: userwww.service.emory.edu/~dwoolf/weekend.html Or e-mail name and address to: dwoolf-AT- emory.edu or call the Atlanta Dance Hotline at 404/351-DANC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Woolf Emory Eye Center W - 404/778-4121 Emory University H - 404/355-2827 Atlanta, GA 30322 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:25:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:44:56 +0000 From: Bob Archer Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <842010383.13574.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric Arnold wrote: > I wonder after I've seen the postings on the subject of "exuberant > traditional dances" whether people are using "traditional" in the same > sense. The way that I have come to understand this term, and others > frequently used to describe different phases of English Country Dance in > its various forms, is: > > Playford I'd agree with Eric's definition of Playford. I know some people in the UK who tend to say '17th and 18th century dances' just to cover themselves on dances from other collections. > > Traditional: old dances with many features similarities of form > and movement to the Playford dances, but which were still > being danced for social entertainment in parts of Britain > and/or in places that had the same traditions of dancing; > these had been "preserved" by the tradition itself, but we > know them mostly from the works of people who collected > them, & may have "standardized" them, when they wrote > descriptions of what they saw. I'm not so sure about this definition of 'traditional'. I think the things that is worrying me is the 'similarities of form and movement to the Playford dances'. It seems to me that this could cover a multitude of dance forms E.g. Playford dances have stars, heys, longways progressions, grand squares etc. as found in many modern contras and squares. I have always tended to think of traditional dances as things like Morpeth Rant, Winster Galop, The Rifleman, Bonny Breast Knot - the sort of dances found in the early Community Dance Manuals ( although the EFDSS did 'standardise' some dances for the CDMs ) > > Other: I don't know a single, unique term for these, but there is > at least a concept: dances written this century in > connection with and in the spirit of the revivial of > interest in ECD both for entertainment and as an art > form, in which the elements of style which define Playford > and Traditional English Country Dances are used in new > compositions, such as the Maggott Pie dances and many > creations of folks like Pat Shaw and contemporary dance > composers such as Nicholas Broadbridge, Colin Hume, Fried > Herman, and many others both in England and elsewhere. I > usually call these "modern", "contemporary", or "20th > century" ECD. This is the really interesting category, and probably the one that most of the dances in my repertoire fit into. Recently composed but drawing on elements of Playford and traditional dances. How should one categorise a dance written entirely in the Playford style done to a tune in the Playford style both of which were composed in the 1990s? > > I find than some of the dances which one finds at ceilidhs and barn dances > are sufficiently removed from the stylistic elements that I would not call > them "modern ECD" but perhaps just "modern English folk dance". What do > others think (particularly across the puddle -- is this distinction at all > appropriate? it seems to fit the division of dance events into ECD or > non-ECD categories over here, but it sounds less useful for the UK...)? I'm not sure what you mean by ECD so I'm not sure how to interpret the term "modern ECD". Certainly many of the dances done at ceilidhs in England are stylistically different to Playford dances ( although still drawing on many of the same elements - stars etc. mentioned above ) but with the emphasis on simple, enjoyable dances. I'm not sure how worried we should get about categories. On the one hand I don't want all forms of dance to end up as a homogeneous mush but on the other hand it's possible to get more involved in categorising dances than in actually dancing them and enjoying them. I recently called at a wedding and was given very firm instructions that they wanted a ceilidh, not a barn dance. Since I have no idea what the difference is I did exactly the same program as I would have done if I had been asked to make it a barn dance rather than a ceilidh. No one seemed to mind. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:55:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:16:51 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrati To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances Rich Galloway wrote > How does one define "folk"? Bear in mind that very few "Playford > dances" have proven origins in anything "folk"! > > Julia Sutton #004#I've always thought of "folk" as applying more to evolution than to origin. A folk song is folk because it has evolved through oral transmission, not because we were unable to trace it to the original author. "Playford" ECD ...... too has certainly evolved over the last 70 years and now even includes diverging regional styles. To the extent that callers call dances "the way we dance them" rather than by the book, I would argue that we can consider "Playford" ECD a "folk" dance form. Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== I think that is one of the best definitions of that slippery category of "folk" things that I have ever come across. This applies very well to the situation of Irish harp music, which was the classical music of it's day, composed by known, named individuals (e.g. O'Carolan), but nowadays, at least in this country, is played pretty exclusively within the "folk" context (and some of the tunes, like "Sheebeg and Sheemore" are passed down as traditional Appalachian tunes with, I am sure, no knowledge of the origins on the part of the players.) Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:56:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:47:26 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An accumulation of thoug To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>An accumulation of thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tempi Please! Please! Please! Don't fall into the faulty logic trap: Contra dances are faster than English dances More people like Contra dances than like English dances. Therefore, if I make the English dances faster, more people will like them. I think the reason more people do Contra dancing than English dancing is that it is more approachable. The variety of steps and figures is more limited. It takes less teaching. English Dancing takes a little more work and thus requires a little more dedication. We shouldn't try to turn ECD into contra dancing any more than we should turn Contra Dancing into basketball. We should be finding the dancers who are interested in working a little harder for, in my opinion, a better dance experience. Rich Jackson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please also don't fall into the trap of thinking that contra dances are wildly successful and for that reason ECD should be emulating them. Speaking as someone heavily involved in organizing contra dancing I can tell you that most dances that I am involved with or hear anything about are struggling to keep going and keep attracting people! In my, anything but humble (and bound to get me into trouble), opinion one of the major reasons for this is that the dance element of contra dancing has become so diluted that people who were originally attracted to the contra scene for the pleasure of dancing (i.e. making specific, choreographed movements in time to music) are leaving it in droves for more disciplined and challenging forms such as swing and, yes, English. Contra dancing has been taken over by an ideology and practice of plain, wild mindless motion, with no discipline, no attention to timing, phrasing or even understanding that the music is there as more than background. Even the concept that people could improve their dancing is attacted as dangerously antidemocratic and counter the "inclusive" spirit of contra dancing which seems to be the lowest common denominator of movement. As a result, the dancers who haven't left are those with the least interest in dance as a discipline, and the new people coming in (and to the extent that our dance is thriving it is because of a large influx of newcomers) have no example of a higher, level of dance ability. Personally, as I have become a better dancer over time, I have found contra less and less satisfying, and English much more so. I realize that one can go overboard in the direction of attention to technical detail to the point of sacrificing all fun, but I would hate to see English go in the direction that I see contra having gone, of turning into simply wild athleticism with a musical background. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:28:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:28:36 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An accumulation of thoug To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906112836.3233-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Some years ago I attended a contra dance evening in another part of the country (No, I won't mention the location--ever). I stayed for two (2) dances and left. I thought I was in the middle of the famous, old Green Bay Packers powere-sweep to the right. And I couldn't tell if I as part of the defense or the offense. Let me hasten to add that I have definitely not given up on contra dancing and had a delightful time in early August at Glen Echo near Wash. D. C. I was especially pleased at the variety of dancing abilities. This was not an 'advanced dance' in any way and the experienced dancers were kind (more than tolerant, I felt) to the beginning/medium level folks. Is the contra dance movement, as described by Barbara Ruth, having attrition problems on the level of the modern square dance folks? Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:30:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:29:47 -0400 From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906122945_278795272-AT- emout18.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-05 18:34:42 EDT, you write: << I have Country Capers on CD by the NY Ren Band, but that's only 25 dances -- more, more, MORE! Does anyone have a good source for recorded Playford music? >> The Broadside Band recordings mentioned in other posts are "English Country Dances from Playford's Dancing Master 1651-1703" and "John Playford's Popular Tunes". The "Orange and Blue Band" recordings to which someone else referred are a set of 4 cassettes entitled "The English Dancing Master." I've purchased all these recently from CDSS (whose catalog of recordings is online at http://www.cdss.org/), so they are available. Carol ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:26:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:22:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT You know, about 15 years ago a local college football team hired a friend of mine, Ruth Birnberg, to give instruction in modern dance to the players. They thought the whole idea was ridiculous at first, until they found out what it did for their coordination...then you should have seen those macho jock-types dance! Ruth said they turned into pretty good dancers, too. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:42:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:42:06 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>Ball dribbling/dancing The astounding modern dance troup Pilobolus got its start when a bunch of jocks at Dartmouth decided to take a modern dance class. . . -------------------------------------- You know, about 15 years ago a local college football team hired a friend of mine, Ruth Birnberg, to give instruction in modern dance to the players. They thought the whole idea was ridiculous at first, until they found out what it did for their coordination...then you should have seen those macho jock-types dance! Ruth said they turned into pretty good dancers, too. Peace. Paul ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by QuickMail.Yale.edu with SMTP;6 Sep 1996 14:34:56 -0400 Received: from SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU by mail-relay1.cis.yale.edu with SMTP id AA01188 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:28:06 -0400 X-Listname: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sender: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:22:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:56:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:56:45 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A7F72.F0C67A32.30-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Can anyone here analyze the basketball/football dribbling/carrying suitability of the following dances: The Goose and the Gridiron Hoop't Petticoat Rural Sports (or, when going for the extra point) Hit and Miss -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:20:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:09:03 -0700 From: robert-AT- slipknot.rain.com Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT pstamler-AT- crl.com wrote: |Gene Murrow's suggestion is a good one: choreograph a dance to be done |while dribbling a basketball throughout. My intuitive guess is that this |will work better as a contra than ECD, but I may be wrong. Going with |that, let's think about which moves will work in such a context: |WILL WORK: |[snip] Basketball players are not limited to dribbling with one hand. Why would you limit these mythical dancers? Several of the figures in your WON'T WORK column become quite feasible when you allow passing from hand to hand. Speculating that every partner has a ball (and has a good time, too ;-), interesting variations could be formed on whether the respective partners/neighors/corners exchange their bounding spheriods in the maneuver or not. [I've lurked on this list long enough. It was time to come out.] ________________________________________________________________________________ Robert Reed Home Animation Limited 503-656-8414 email: robert-AT- slipknot.rain.com West Linn, OR 97068 A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore. --Yogi Berra ________________________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:47:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:47:36 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: Rich Galloway CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Next question: what is "form." In music, drama, painting, art, poetry it means structure. Many dancers use it, however, to mean style or type. I would like to see them join the other arts in their use of terminology, so they can converse with artists and performers in the other arts, and also save the word "form" for a more useful purpose. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:18:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:18:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, julia s sutton wrote: > Next question: what is "form." In music, drama, painting, art, poetry it > means structure. Many dancers use it, however, to mean style or type. I > would like to see them join the other arts in their use of terminology, so > they can converse with artists and performers in the other arts, and also > save the word "form" for a more useful purpose. In my description of what the term "traditional" meant to me when used to qualify English Country dance, I was thinking of the configuration of the set when I used "form". Is this the kind of structure that you are thinking of, Julia, or something more dynamic, as one might think of "structure" in a musical composition? Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:26:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:24:43 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906162443.3522-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia Sutton speaks elegantly to a particularly critical aspect of dance perception. I find the form or pattern of dance movements so very similar to the form of the accompanying music. Think of this in terms "departure and return." In the majority of dances, the music begins in a certain key, starting with the main chord of that key. The music departs to other chords within that key or to other keys/tonal centers. As the round of the dance ends, the music returns to the original key, the key in which the music began. So do the figures, the whole Contra dance concept is predicated upon an opening formation, a series of departures in physical location through a series of physical movements, but always returning to the basic formation but down/up one couple (In 'Beckett' formation, it's one couple's worth around the oblong). Note the number of dance tunes that, say, begin in a minor key, move to the relative major key at the end of the first section, start the second section in that same major key and then return to the opening minor sonority. Scarlatti based much of his musical career on this approach. Many of our favorite "Playford" dances do much the same. Think of where you go and how the formation re-figures in, say, "Newcastle." Weren't you surprised, the first time, when you smashed through the last set of lines and found yourself 'back home?" Another concept of form is the thematic elements that hold the whole together, a combining of aesthetically pleasing units to a satisfying total. Music for "The Black Nag" comes to mind. The A and B parts contrast with one another, but the similarities help hold it together. In the dance proper, it's the combination of USA (Love that concept) as one set of unifying ideas, dance to dance, combined with the repetition of a unique chorus---Upon a Summer's Day, Gathering Peascods, and so many others. Even the 'through-composed' works often have a sense of unity, aided, for the most part, by the use of the dance formation itself. At the personal/emotional level, I believe form is not a carefully observed/ analyzed eleme