Archive-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:06:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:54:09 +0000 From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <841607765.11535.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan Winston wrote: > The EC dance scenes in the UK and US seem to be very different, and I'd like to > hear more about them both. The differences interest be considerably. I'll add a few of my thoughts to the debate. Firstly though, a disclaimer. Imagine that every sentence starts with the words 'In my opinion', these are my opinions based on my experiences dancing, calling and playing in the UK and dancing and calling in the US ( specifically Seattle, Boston and Vermont ). If I say anything wrong about the UK or US scenes or, if what I say doesn't apply to your area please correct me. I am not trying to insult or upset anyone either. If you feel that I have done that please email me privately just to make sure that it isn't purely a misunderstanding due to some bad phrasing on my part. I am not going to deal with the Scottish, Modern Square Dance or Line Dance scenes at all. In the UK these are pretty seperate to the main English / American / ceilidh scenes and my impression is that this is true in the US as well. I am going to try and avoid using the term 'English Country Dance' since I think that this has already been the source of some confusion. Instead I will use 'Playford' to indicate dances from the 17th or 18th centuries. As I see it, the UK scene splits into three sections - Ceilidh, Dance and one night stand. I shall attempt to provide a brief overview: Ceilidh This has really taken off over the past few years. There are a lot of very electric bands playing rocked up versions of traditional tunes. For example, I went to a ceilidh last night with Peeping Tom and Hugh Rippon. Peeping Tom feature melodeon, electric guitars ( bass and rhythym ), electric mandolin, electric keyboard and drums ( also electric as it happens ). The music was loud ( several people including the caller wore earplugs ) and very upbeat. The dances were fairly simple and included a waltz ( St. Bernards Waltz ) and two hornpipes ( Nottingham Swing and Clopton Bridge ). There are a number of ceilidh series - Peeping Tom's monthly series in Coventry springs to mind as do the M27 megabops. This is what is attracting younger people - the spread of ages at a ceilidh is usually very wide. In general, the dances do not have set tunes. If I decided to do "The Willow Tree" I would just ask the band for a set of 48 bar jigs and let them pick whatever they wanted. I would expect the band to have a selection of jigs, reels, polkas, hornpipes ( meaning step hops ) and waltzes. The ceilidhs I've been to at Folklife in Seattle ( with Jiggery Polkery and Fiery Clockface ) have been excellent and very similar to the ceilidhs over here ( although no one knows the works to 'Blaydon Races' and 'Lily the Pink' ). The 'English Barn Dance' I went to at NEFFA was less impressive and less accurate. Other than these isolated examples, I get the feeling that there isn't a ceilidh scene in the States. In addition, the ceilidh scene is expanding the range of music it uses. There are bands specialising in French music, bourees are popular. Token Women are a typical example of this. Just out of interest, 'Black Nag' has recently become popular at ceilidhs. The dance is simple, can be made very exuberant and the tune is great. We do the whole dance through several times, getting louder and faster each time. 'Dance' I've quoted this because I don't like the term, it comes over as snobby but it seems to be the currently accepted term - if someone has a better one please let me know. This covers Playford, American contra and traditional squares, a certain amount of traditional English dance ( although this is now mostly done in the ceilidh scene ) and dances by modern composers in a variety of styles ( I'm thinking about people like Pat Shaw, Colin Hume, Fried de Metz Herman and others ). We tend not to have separate square, contra and Playford dance scenes - although some clubs and callers specialise in one area or another it is quite common to have a Saturday night dance which mixes Playford, square, contra, traditional and modern English dances. We do have special events - particularly at festivals where there might be a Playford Ball and an American night. Bands are expected to be able to play for American and Playford. The dance scene is based around clubs who meet weekly, often dancing to recorded music. The clubs organise Saturday night dances, perhaps 2 or 4 a year with a guest caller and live music. Bands tend to be based around accordion and fiddle - piano has gone out of fashion, we have very few pianists ( by contrast, the Americans seem to have very few accordionists - I must make the effort to get past the first 10 pages of "Interview with a Vamper" ). We tend not to have dance series in the same way as in the US ( there are some exceptions but they are exceptions, the weekly clubs are the rule ). The age range for this is much older than that for ceilidhs. I have gone to dances and been the youngest person in the room by 20 years ( I'm 30 ). This dance scene also seems to be shrinking - attendances at dances are getting smaller, clubs are running fewer Saturday night dances. Alan also wrote: > It appears that the current American ECD style (disregarding > Renaissance Faire, SCA, or other semi-historical recreators) > emphasizes the smooth, flowing, graceful aspect of ECD, usually > found in "historical" dances, over the exuberant aspect usually > found in "traditional" dances. I gather that the situation in > England is different. Music for the bulk of the current American > ECD repertoire can be found in the Barnes book (of 404 tunes), which > is an excellent start for an American ECD musician. I would agree with this. The American style of Playford has always seemed to me to be concerned with grace and style ( 'romantic' is a word I often hear associated with Playford in America ). My feeling is that Americans are more protective of their Playford tradition that the Brits are. I remember one American friend of mine coming out of the Playford Ball at Sidmouth saying indignantly "They don't know how to play for a Playford dance!". The musicians involved ( Chris Dewhurst and Sue Stapledon by the way, and yes, I have told them this story - they weren't offended ) tend to be rather experimental. When Chris gets going the result can end up very 'straight', romantic and lyrical or sounding like Glenn Miller meets John Playford, lots of big 7th and 9th chords and some utterly over the top arrangements. ( Quick ad, Chris has several recordings out featuring himself and a variety of other musicians - they are all excellent, get "Wright's Humours" if you want to hear his approach to Playford ) By the way, the Barnes book is an excellent start for an English Playford musicians as well, it's not as popular over here as in the States but that probably has more to do with the difficulty of getting hold of it than anything else. My feeling is that the American Playford tradition is different to the English Playford tradition, ditto for the contra and square dance traditions. I have American friends who have come out of the American night at Sidmouth without recognising 'their' tradition. As I said before, we do not have the same split between contra, square and Playford that you seem to have in the States ( I'll be very happy to hear of areas where this isn't the case ). This was brought home to me when I went over to Seattle in 1994 and got three bookings in Seattle on consecutive nights. I was worried that the dancers in Seattle would get sick of the sound of my voice but since one of the dances was contras at the Ballard Eagles, one was the Friday English dance and the other was Scotsbroome there was very little overlap between them. This is also an indication of the size of the dance scene in Seattle. One of my most embarassing experiences was calling at Folklife when I asked a room full of contra dancers to start a reel for four. Nobody moved, 300 dancers in the Roadhouse not moving make an awful lot of silence! Luckily, Phil Katz was dancing and shouted out 'hey' very loudly - everyone moved! Apart from the fact that over here we tend to use hey and reel interchangably I would also expect most 'experienced' dancers over here to be familiar with the common terms used in Playford, square and contra dances, even if the dancers themselves had a preference for one dance form. One night stands These are dances for people who are not regular dancers. Howard Mitchell has already described the sort of events that he has played for. The evening consists of simple dances - dances that everyone can join in with without needing any experience. They tend to be traditional English dances, or maybe dances written in a traditional style - see the early Community Dance Manuals for examples of these. I tend not to call any Playford dances at these events although I know some callers who do some of the simpler dances. I also don't call any contras or indeed any longways dances ( too much work explaining the progression and changing numbers at the end ), again I do know callers who do call simple longways though - the emphasis is very much on dances that are quick to walk through and fun to dance. I have no idea whether this is done at all in the States, perhaps someone can enlighten me. Anyway, I've already written far too much which is worrying ( the more I write, the bigger the chances are that I've said something stupid ). To conclude completely subjectively, there are elements in the UK and US dances scenes that I love and elements that I don't love so much. If only the transatlantic air fare were cheaper and I had more time I'd be quite happy to spend my life flitting between the UK and the US getting the best ( in my opinion ) out of both dance scenes. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 02:34:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:33:40 -0300 (BST) From: Interface Analysis Centre Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Newcastle To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear All, Has anyone ever been walked through Newcastle? The other week at Whitby, we had another example of a caller getting people up into four couple squares, then saying the dance was newcastle, then getting the music to start up and that was about it, depsite some shouts from the dance floor. There was calling while the dance was happening, but if you have four couples who don't know where they are going without some warning in advance, all you get is a set (or more) walking off the dance floor. When did this "tradition" of not calling Newcastle come about???? Keith --- Interface Analysis Centre, University of Bristol, Oldbury House, 121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England Telephone: +44 (0)117 925 5666 | Facsimile: +44 (0)117 925 5646 | URL: http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/research/iac/home.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 03:20:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 03:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I8ZLMJ13AQ0002LN-AT- UG.EDS.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'll add one observation to Bob's; I think that the US distinguish Playford from Contra and hence tend to do the slower Playford (and more triple minor) dances than the English, and the more energetic contras (demanding two swings). Since the English dance both they grumble that energetic contras are too much work, and that slow Playford is too slow. Having said I would make one observation, I'll make another and say that Americans do contras for longer than the English. Tony Parkes caused much comment when he did some dance 20+ times through at Sidmouth; as Bob said the English clubs usually dance to records, which typically go through 7 times. I have seen a US caller signal 5 more times to a band; I don't think an English one would ever signal more than twice more. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 04:06:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:05:28 +0000 From: Howard Mitchell Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609021106.MAA01125-AT- zeus.tcp.net.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Keith Hallam asked: > Has anyone ever been walked through Newcastle? > The other week at Whitby, we had another example of a caller getting people up > into four couple squares, then saying the dance was newcastle, then getting the > music to start up and that was about it, depsite some shouts from the dance floor. > There was calling while the dance was happening, but if you have four couples who > don't know where they are going without some warning in advance, all you get is a > set (or more) walking off the dance floor. > When did this "tradition" of not calling Newcastle come about???? I too was at that dance at Whitby and I do think that the caller misjudged his audience. I can remember Newcastle being uncalled in 1971(?) at the Reading Intervarsity Festival and in the intervening years have heard callers say 'Newcastle for those who know it', usually in response to requests from the floor. I don't think this reflects well on the ability of the caller or on his judgment of the audience. Perhaps we have here a dowside to the mixed-ability audiences in the UK when compared with the US. But to redress the balance, I think the number of occasions where I've seen Newcastle appropriately called outnumber other occurences. Howard Mitchell ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 05:56:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:52:35 +0000 From: Bob Archer Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <841665457.25390.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hugh wrote: > I'll add one observation to Bob's; I think that the US distinguish > Playford from Contra and hence tend to do the slower Playford (and more > triple minor) dances than the English, and the more energetic contras > (demanding two swings). Since the English dance both they grumble that > energetic contras are too much work, and that slow Playford is too slow. I must admit the 'standard' Playford repertoire in the States differs quite considerably from the 'standard' repertoire over here. > Having said I would make one observation, I'll make another and say that > Americans do contras for longer than the English. Tony Parkes caused > much comment when he did some dance 20+ times through at Sidmouth; as > Bob said the English clubs usually dance to records, which typically go > through 7 times. I have seen a US caller signal 5 more times to a band; > I don't think an English one would ever signal more than twice more. I've actually increased the number of times through I let contras run as a result of calling and dancing in the U.S. Basically, if a dance is going well and the dancers are enjoying it I don't see much point in stopping it. Even with this change of attitude though I'm still only running contras through for about 12 times, rather than the 20+ I have encountered in the U.S. Just out of interest, does the increase in length apply to Playford as well? How many times through would an American caller do a longways Playford dance? ( say Indian Queen ). If the dance were a three couple set dance ( the Alderman's Hat springs to mind ) would it be done 3 times, 6, 9 or even 12? Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 06:14:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:14:59 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Just out of interest, does the increase in length apply to Playford >as well? How many times through would an American caller do a >longways Playford dance? ( say Indian Queen ). More like 12 times than 20; certainly not like the interminble contras. >If the dance were a >three couple set dance ( the Alderman's Hat springs to mind ) would >it be done 3 times, 6, 9 or even 12? Three couple dances are very often done twice through; that seems not to be the case with square or four-couple dances (though w.r.t. Newcastle, that is often done twice through, especially if it is done for those who "know" -- but maybe are using the first round to remind themselves!) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 07:14:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:29:05 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <322AFD41.75E4-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <841665457.25390.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Dear All - Yesterday afternoon I attended a lovely 'English Country' dance called by Robin Hayden that, while not being a Playford Ball, was a very similar program for here in the US: many lovely, flowing dances with some set (3 couple) dances and a circle mixer included. However, from reading the posts from Howard Mitchell and others, I'm beginning to believe that there are some inherent problems with such a program: the general energy level of the dancers seems to flag as the program goes on because of the dreamy, mesmerizing quality of the dances. If we took a page from the UK callers' book, we would mix in more traditional dances (Community Dance Manual?) that would raise the level of enthusiasm of the dancers - not to mention the band - and would contribute to the whole evening. I'm not sure when we, in the US, stopped dancing the traditional dances at an 'English' dance - when I started dancing 15 years ago, a program included both - but we know-nothings lumped all of them into the 'contra' category (whose origins were unimportant). So as the years progressed, the separation, at least in local dances, became more and more defined. In Amherst, Massachusetts, where I have been living for the past 3 years, there has been a dance on Monday nights for years. The format was half 'English' (Playford style) and half contra (very possibly some traditional English was thrown in then too). When the hall was changed to a non-wood floor due to unfortunate circumstances, the format changed to all 'English' and all the traditional dances (if there were any) were dropped. After reading all the various posts, I think that we have done our own local dances a real disservice. This is even more reinforced by the evening dance selection at Pinewoods Camp English Week this year, which really mixed up the kinds of dances to many people's delight and others' dismay - and yes, as Rich Jackson says, there are many who head for the side when a rant is called, but there are also those who hunger for it - Mary Beth. Who should be excluded? No one! Or everyone - sometime or other. Perhaps part of the reason that the average age of English dancers in the US is getting up there is that we have eliminated traditional dances in our repertoire so often, and while those of us who embody the "full figure of eight" and are grey-haired might not dance all these dances, they would attract and keep the younger (contra) dancers who might then fall in love with the rest of the dances. I would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that programming is affecting attendence. This is a 'burning' issue for us in Amherst and would welcome any others' ideas. Thanks - Mary Jones Amherst, Mass. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:24:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:27:04 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well said Mary! I think your point about pleasing all people is well taken - so what if people have to sit out a dance - socializing is a good thing too. When I choose to sit out a dance, I enjoy watching the people dancing and chatting with people on the sidelines. I agree with Mary that we have lost something by pushing "Traditional" or "Community" dances aside and somehow promoting the notion that if it isn't Playford it's worth sneering at. And I agree that many people new to English might be drawn in by these joyful dances. I mentioned to my husband Ron about this discussion and he said - I don't like _those_ dances. This does not surprise me. He is rather solemn in his dancing style, although he is otherwise a pretty good dancer... (am I digging myself a hole here????) Well, *I* do enjoy traditional dances - I don't do all of them but I always enjoy the ones I do. I think it takes a certain committment to letting yourself have a good time while dancing - being able to let yourself "go" and have fun. And as Mary said, I do love to rant - who knows why? It is a real change from all the smooth gliding dances, even those done with power and verve. Guess balance is good in all things. And just as experiencing a full range of emotions is a good thing in life, perhaps experiencing the full range of English Dance is too. Mary Beth Goodman <-- rant til you can't ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:56:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Mary E Jones wrote: > Perhaps part of the reason that the average age of English dancers in > the US is getting up there is that we have eliminated traditional dances > in our repertoire so often, and while those of us who embody the "full > figure of eight" and are grey-haired might not dance all these dances, > they would attract and keep the younger (contra) dancers who might then > fall in love with the rest of the dances. > > I would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that programming is > affecting attendence. This is a 'burning' issue for us in Amherst and > would welcome any others' ideas. I would say emphatically yes. Our local dance has been "all-Playford, all the time" since its inception, and attendance has been quite sparse, and the age group has been almost entirely over-40. Not to know over 40 (I turn 46 myself on Friday), but if this is going to continue for very long it needs to be attracting younger dancers, who are now going only to contra and swing. Interestingly enough, a few months ago our callers began consciously incorporating a greater number of the more vigorous and aerobic Playford dances into the repertoire, programming evenings to be about half-and-half "vigorous" and "stately". Interestingly enough, the attendance has picked up quite noticeably, and our retention rate of new dancers has gone up as well. Plus the band is having lots of fun with the variety. I too would like to see us include some traditional dances; maybe one of these days! Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 16:31:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:36:59 -0500 From: sheilab-AT- tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Dance Band Workshop, New Haven CT 9/14 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Renowned violinist MARSHALL BARRON will be leading a dance band workshop for instrumentalists (interested dancers/callers welcomed, too) on Saturday, September 14, from 1-4 PM at the Neighborhood Music School, 100 Audubon Street, New Haven CT. For complete details including fees and specific repertoire to be covered, please contact Marshall directly: 203/776.6929 or write to her at 100 York Street #15E, New Haven CT 06510. [sent in by Sheila Beardslee Bosworth, because Marshall B is not on-line....yet] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:58:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 19:58:32 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960902195832.20d2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: 7 times through a contra. IMHO, I think Americans tend to do contras more than 7 times for 2 reasons: >They would like the dance to last longer than the time it took to learn it. >It's fun to the #1 couple in many contras. This is true when the ones do something while the twos just stand there. "The Female Saylor" is one striking example of a longways where the twos pick their noses while the ones zap up through the couple above, down around the second, etc. Then the twos come alive for a startling moment or two then go back to their noses. Some of the more traditional contras are guilty of some of the same sins. The trend to equal movements among (amoung?) all couples is something I approve and enjoy. Ted Sannella's "Holiday Jig" comes to mind but there are so many others. Anyway, length is sometimes dictated by custom of the event (Berea Christmas School is one of many longer dance week type of occasions. Contras tend to be fairly long there, and even a medly of two contras is not unusual.) Let me also lead a long, loud, well-enunciated cheer for the trend towar non-genter specific calling. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:41:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:32:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903082936.32df8c56-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 10:33 AM 9/2/96 -0300, you wrote: >Dear All, > >Has anyone ever been walked through Newcastle? >The other week at Whitby, we had another example of a caller getting people up >into four couple squares, then saying the dance was newcastle, then getting the >music to start up and that was about it, depsite some shouts from the dance floor. >There was calling while the dance was happening, but if you have four couples who >don't know where they are going without some warning in advance, all you get is a >set (or more) walking off the dance floor. >When did this "tradition" of not calling Newcastle come about???? > >Keith >--- >Interface Analysis Centre, University of Bristol, Oldbury House, >121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England >Telephone: +44 (0)117 925 5666 | Facsimile: +44 (0)117 925 5646 | >URL: http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/research/iac/home.html > > > > > Keith Here in the states we always walk thru each dance. Our EC group is varied enough in experience that a caller could not count on the dancers knowing the dance. This brings up a related question. We perform at a renaissance festival once a year. During these performances we do not use a caller but learn the dances. I have a great deal of difficulty relating a dance to it's name. Once the dance is underway then I remember it but the first couple of figures can be hard to remember. I look to the others for clues. How does an experienced dancer remember what "Newcastle" consists of? Harold __o _`\<, (*)/(*) ----------------- cheyney.1-AT- osu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:41:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:32:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903082937.32df3444-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 01:27 PM 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Well said Mary! > >I think your point about pleasing all people is well taken - so what if >people have to sit out a dance - socializing is a good thing too. When I >choose to sit out a dance, I enjoy watching the people dancing and chatting >with people on the sidelines. > >I agree with Mary that we have lost something by pushing "Traditional" or >"Community" dances aside and somehow promoting the notion that if it isn't >Playford it's worth sneering at. And I agree that many people new to >English might be drawn in by these joyful dances. > >I mentioned to my husband Ron about this discussion and he said - I don't >like _those_ dances. This does not surprise me. He is rather solemn in his >dancing style, although he is otherwise a pretty good dancer... (am I >digging myself a hole here????) > >Well, *I* do enjoy traditional dances - I don't do all of them but I always >enjoy the ones I do. I think it takes a certain committment to letting >yourself have a good time while dancing - being able to let yourself "go" >and have fun. > >And as Mary said, I do love to rant - who knows why? It is a real change >from all the smooth gliding dances, even those done with power and verve. > >Guess balance is good in all things. And just as experiencing a full range >of emotions is a good thing in life, perhaps experiencing the full range of >English Dance is too. > >Mary Beth Goodman <-- rant til you can't > > > > Mary Beth, Our EC group is heavily Playford most of the time. Once in a while someone in the group brings a youth group from his/her church to the dance. On those evenings the caller changes to exuberant traditional dances for much of the evening. I just love those evenings. Contra dancing is my first love and these dances more closely approach that. Some of the Playford dances get a bit complex to be fun although I do enjoy the mental challenge they provide. Harold __o _`\<, (*)/(*) ----------------- cheyney.1-AT- osu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:52:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:48:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903084556.32df641c-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 01:53 PM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Mary E Jones wrote: > >> Perhaps part of the reason that the average age of English dancers in >> the US is getting up there is that we have eliminated traditional dances >> in our repertoire so often, and while those of us who embody the "full >> figure of eight" and are grey-haired might not dance all these dances, >> they would attract and keep the younger (contra) dancers who might then >> fall in love with the rest of the dances. >> >> I would be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that programming is >> affecting attendence. This is a 'burning' issue for us in Amherst and >> would welcome any others' ideas. > >I would say emphatically yes. Our local dance has been "all-Playford, all >the time" since its inception, and attendance has been quite sparse, and >the age group has been almost entirely over-40. Not to know over 40 (I >turn 46 myself on Friday), but if this is going to continue for very long >it needs to be attracting younger dancers, who are now going only to >contra and swing. > >Interestingly enough, a few months ago our callers began consciously >incorporating a greater number of the more vigorous and aerobic Playford >dances into the repertoire, programming evenings to be about >half-and-half "vigorous" and "stately". Interestingly enough, the >attendance has picked up quite noticeably, and our retention rate of new >dancers has gone up as well. Plus the band is having lots of fun with the >variety. > >I too would like to see us include some traditional dances; maybe one of >these days! > >Peace. >Paul > > Paul A church youth group visits our ECD group from time to time. On those nights the emphasis changes from "stately" to "vigorous". Those are my favorite evenings. I am also a contra dancer. Lately I have been thinking "Why not combine contra and ECD?". Some recent contributors to this group have mentioned that in some venues they used to be combined but have since split. Harold __o _`\<, (*)/(*) ----------------- cheyney.1-AT- osu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 06:35:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:33:38 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960903083338.20d2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Does the "Newcastle" no-walk-through apply to "Nonesuch" as well? While attending a delightful week at Halsway Manor (England) some years ago, we got into formation and the music started. There may have been calling for the turn, but I don't remember. I do remember that the "natives" step "briskly" into the long line (you remember, it's the one just before arming, and someone always forgets arming just before slipping). It is not considered good form to jump and stomp into the long line, as we often see in the states. Forbes/Baker University DOL ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:36:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 08:29:11 From: MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Noo Shoos To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9608038417.AA841764551-AT- labts.la.btsint.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I live for the events that have wood floors! :) Thanks ever so! Meg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:44:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:44:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609031544.KAA20162-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Harold Cheyney writes: >Our EC group is heavily Playford most of the time. Once in a while someone >in the group brings a youth group from his/her church to the dance. On >those evenings the caller changes to exuberant traditional dances for much >of the evening. I just love those evenings. Contra dancing is my first >love and these dances more closely approach that. Some of the Playford >dances get a bit complex to be fun although I do enjoy the mental challenge >they provide. I'm fairly new to ECD/Playford. Could someone list some examples of these "exuberant traditional dances"? Since our group is very new we haven't yet (hopefully) fallen into the all-Playford trap that everyone is talking about. We try to keep the tempos up and provide a variety of formations and dance types at our evenings. Any suggestions of books and other sources for these dances? Thanks. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:53:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:57:11 -0700 From: dssweet-AT- okway.okstate.edu (Deborah Sweet) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <22C70D60.1991-AT- okway.okstate.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harold wrote: >This brings up a related question. We perform at a renaissance festival >once a year. During these performances we do not use a caller but learn >the dances. I have a great deal of difficulty relating a dance to it's >name. Once the dance is underway then I remember it but the first couple >of figures can be hard to remember. I look to the others for clues. >How does an experienced dancer remember what "Newcastle" consists of? In my region of the SCA we try to not use callers during dancing. Calling is for the teaching time. IMHO, some people just have the natural ability to remember the name of a dance, the steps involved, and recognize the music. Other people can only link any two of these three items, and some people can't link any of them. But once they've started the dance most people go, "Yes, I remember this one!" So you're not alone with your problem. What works for one person to help them remember will not necessarily work for another. I seem to have the ability to remember steps, dance name and music with ease, but then I also have been teaching the dances. Teaching probably reinforces the natural memory capabilities in myself. But as well, I've got all these dance instruction books (and tapes) that I can look at at any time, thus reinforcing the association of name, steps, and music. Not everyone has access to this reinforcement or wants to take the time to do this. Perhaps as an aid to yourself, you could get your local instructor to make a tape of the dances you'll be doing at the festival, and record the name of the dance, and the dance instructions over the music, if possible. Repeatedly playing the tape may reinforce the dances over time. Or something else entirely may work better for you. Debby Sweet ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:14:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:10:13 -0500 (EDT) From: jshelby-AT- ais.autometric.com (Joe Shelby) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609031610.MAA01827-AT- ais> Content-Type: text Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Harold wrote: > > >This brings up a related question. We perform at a renaissance festival > >once a year. During these performances we do not use a caller but learn > >the dances. I have a great deal of difficulty relating a dance to it's > >name. Once the dance is underway then I remember it but the first couple > >of figures can be hard to remember. I look to the others for clues. > >How does an experienced dancer remember what "Newcastle" consists of? > > In my region of the SCA we try to not use callers during dancing. > Calling is for the teaching time. IMHO, some people just have the > natural ability to remember the name of a dance, the steps involved, and > recognize the music. Other people can only link any two of these three > items, and some people can't link any of them. But once they've started > the dance most people go, "Yes, I remember this one!" So you're not > alone with your problem. my trick is to look for patterns...in the case of Newcastle or Nonesuch, its realizing and remembering that the U.S.A. pattern (_U_p a double and back, _S_iding, _A_rming) is still there and keeping it separate in my head...works for most of the non-progressive dances. once i've got that, the music usually reinforces/reminds when there is or isn't a "set and turn single" (or just a turn, as in Gathering Peascods). From there, treat the rest as a chorus, which in the case of the early Playfords, is usually unique each time, but very often flows or still has a pattern that can be seen, like the heys of Grimstock. the harder dances our group (markland & SCA related, performs at the local renfest among other events) performs are the ones without those patterns, like Trip to Tunbridge and Step Stately. Morris dance also often has U.S.A. type patterns (Bantam: half-gyp, whole-gyp; Bucknell: half-gyp, back-to-back; etc...), but does have the advantage that in most traditions the chorus is the same each repetition of a particular dance. :) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5520 Cherokee Ave, Suite 210, Alexandria, VA 22312 (703) 658-6127 http://www.io.com/~acroyear Big Time Television: All Day, Every Day, Making Tomorrow Seem Like Yesterday! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:20:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:20:40 -0400 (EDT) From: M.Beth.Lewis-AT- Dartmouth.EDU (M. Beth Lewis) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <22957610-AT- cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT SIGNOFF ECD ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:34:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:35:54 -0700 From: dssweet-AT- okway.okstate.edu (Deborah Sweet) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <22C7A1B0.1991-AT- okway.okstate.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joseph wrote: >my trick is to look for patterns...in the case of Newcastle or Nonesuch, its >realizing and remembering that the U.S.A. pattern (_U_p a double and back, >_S_iding, _A_rming) is still there and keeping it separate in my >head...works for most of the non-progressive dances. once i've got that, ROTFL, I've never heard it called that! Maybe if I use "U.S.A." at the next dance practice, it'll help someone remember that dance sequence of doubles-siding-arming better. Debby ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:36:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 17:35:14 +0000 From: Howard Mitchell Subject: Fourteen New Country Dances for 1791 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609031636.RAA23588-AT- zeus.tcp.net.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have come across three hand written sheets with a note at the top: 'taken from a fan exhibited at Platt Hall (Manchester) 1964. Fan used as aide memoire' The sheets are entitled 'Fourteen New Dances for 1791 with their proper figures as performed at Court, Bath and all public Assemblys. Published as the act directs by E Sucklow (or Scicllow or Swallow) 13th Decmber 1790' and contain music and brief description of nine dances (not fourteen, perhaps there's a sheet missing). The dances are: Revolution de la France The British Flag Westminster Election The Greenwich Pensioner The Shrubery Bucks of Europa The Triple Alliance The Ultimatum Baroness Nagel's Fancy Does anyone know if these have been published either from the original or from these notes on the fan? Howard Mitchell ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:39:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:36:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960903123347.0f771958-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 08:29 AM 9/3/96, you wrote: > > I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on > concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone > have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset > a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And > please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am > limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I > live for the events that have wood floors! :) > > Thanks ever so! > Meg > > I have a pair of shoes with crepe soles that seem to work well as long as the surface is smooth. They provide quite a bit of cushon. I danced on rough concrete once this summer and that was a challenge since I couldn't slide at all. Harold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:35:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:38:37 -0600 From: seniort-AT- newtrier.k12.il.us (Thomas J. Senior) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on > concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone > have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset > a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And > please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am > limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I > live for the events that have wood floors! :) > > Thanks ever so! > Meg I use walking shoes - Rockport has fairly dressy leather ones - that give good support and a fair amount of cushioning. Jogging shoes might help, but they tend to be VERY obviously sporty. Those who can, do. Those who understand, teach. Thomas J. Senior New Trier High School 1232 St. Johns Ave 385 Winnetka Ave Highland Park, IL 60035-3425 Winnetka, IL 60093-4295 847-433-8704 847-446-7000 x2128 seniort-AT- newtrier.k12.il.us ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:56:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Return-Path: bolker-AT- phoenix.Princeton.EDU Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 15:38:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Susie Lorand Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: web page for English dances in Titusville, NJ To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT greetings to all! i've just added the new schedule for the "first friday" english dance series run by the lambertville country dancers onto lcd's web page. take a peek at http://eno.princeton.edu/~ben/lcd/main.html if you have web access. i welcome comments on the construction of the page. my thanks to ben bolker for hosting it. - susie lorand (using ben bolker's e-mail address, bolker-AT- phoenix.princeton.edu) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:21:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:12:21 +0200 From: Martin Kiff Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Differences between UK and US dance scenes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <$LkblDAlEJLyEw+z-AT- webfeet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >As I see it, the UK scene splits into three sections - Ceilidh, Dance >and one night stand. I shall attempt to provide a brief overview: Whups.. a fragment of discussion about English Ceilidh and I almost missed it... Perhaps one difference between the dance scenes is that in the UK we do have _different_ names for the high-energy folk dance and the more cerebral/low impact variety. Does calling them 'Ceilidh' and 'Dance' mean that they will continue to diverge? It is a foolhardy caller (or John Kirkpatrick) who attempts a triple-minor in a ceilidh and you get very, very little Reggae in the 'dance' circles... :-) I wonder whether this is a good thing, whether the popularity of English Ceilidh will feed through to the dance community as the knees and ankles get older or whether by that time the two sides will be so far apart as to be in different worlds. The bright spot on the horizon here are bands like Junction 24 who play for both Ceilidh and Dance (although they advertise as J24 or J24 'in dance mode') showing that it is still possible to have a dance with a good swing. (As a disclaimer - the Ceilidh I know is mainly southern English, Scottish Ceilidh, I gather, is quite different) Regards, Martin Kiff English Ceilidh information under http://www.ftech.co.uk/~webfeet/ mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:38:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:36:45 -0400 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (A., C., & M. Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609032336.TAA27368-AT- vicon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Debby wrote: >Joseph wrote: >> ... the U.S.A. pattern (_U_p a double and back, _S_iding, _A_rming) ... >ROTFL, I've never heard it called that! I never have either. I tend to call it "sidearm." This is more generally useful, because it covers the dances where the first figure is circle left two doubles or meet a double and back. By the way, one of the "sidearm" dances from Playford is named The Gun. Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:32:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:31:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com wrote: > I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on > concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone > have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset > a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! I had the same problem at Pennsic--a few dances on the concrete floor and I felt like I had shin splints. The shoes that really helped were a pair of walking shoes that I got at KMart to wear for Morris dancing. There was enough padding and support that they were comfortable, and felt like a really thick pair of jazz shoes (my other preferred footwear) would probably feel. --Kimberly ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:09:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 01:09:06 -0400 From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960903231858_276558615-AT- emout08.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-03 11:43:04 EDT, Meg Miller wrote: << I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? >> In addition to shoes with well-cushioned soles, impact-absorbing inserts may help. The ones that have worked for me are "Sorbothane", available at sporting goods stores and shops that sell shoes for athetics. They come in different thicknesses, and can be used either to supplement or replace the inserts already in your shoes. Do try them on in the shoes they're intended for before buying them, though; they take up space, and you may find you need a larger shoe size. Good luck! Carol Martinez White Plains, N.Y. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 00:25:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:29:03 -0500 From: gapbob-AT- cris.com (Bob Borcherding) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >> I've just spent the weekend dancing in the wrong shoes on >> concrete. Can't do anything about the concrete, but does anyone >> have any suggestions for dancing shoes that will at least offset >> a little of the concrete-inflicted damage? Feet hurt! (And >> please don't suggest a better floor -- I teach in the SCA and am >> limited to what the sites, frequently campgrounds, provide. I >> live for the events that have wood floors! :) >> >> Thanks ever so! >> Meg I've seen a fellow from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, put round-headed screws (Philips head, I imagine) at several locations in his running shoes. The shoes give enough cushion, whereas the screws (perhaps six) reduce the friction. Seemed like a good idea. I suppose everyone would have a different number of screws for optimal friction. Of course, you wouldn't want to do this to your everday shoes, nor wear them on wooden floors! bob borcherding gapbob-AT- cris.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 04:15:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:15:51 -0400 From: nparr-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu (Nancy Parr (Hitchcock Center)) Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609041115.HAA21191-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >I've seen a fellow from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, put round-headed screws >(Philips head, I imagine) at several locations in his running shoes. The >shoes give enough cushion, whereas the screws (perhaps six) reduce the >friction. Seemed like a good idea. I suppose everyone would have a >different number of screws for optimal friction. Of course, you wouldn't >want to do this to your everday shoes, nor wear them on wooden floors! > > >bob borcherding >gapbob-AT- cris.com Wow. It's too early in the a.m. for this sort of list topic overlap! With sorbathane inserts and screws it sounds like the running list. Runners put flat-headed hex screws in the soles of running shoes for running on ice. Be sure to use short ones. However, I find that they make the shoes slippery on clear pavement or cement, and wouldn't dream of trying to dance them. Also there is great potential for damaging surfaces, the reason studded snow tires are illegal out of season. You sure this dancer wasn't really a runner who took a wrong turn at the light? Nancy Parr > > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:09:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:05:30 -0500 From: Tom Roby Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Noo Shoos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9609041605.AA03484-AT- alpha3.math.wisc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I highly recommend Spenco insoles, particularly theflat, green variety, which last indefinitely, don't absorb oder, and make a remarkable difference in all my dance shoes. I put them in all my regular shoes as well. They are generally available in large or athletic shoesstores, and athletic specialty stores. There are now lots of different styles (with arch supports, etc.) if you care to experiment. For English I usually use one of two kinds of shoes around my Spenco insoles: Capezzio Jazz Oxfords, which are good for pivoting and tacky surfaces but don't provide much support, and Rockport (Rocksport) ProWalkers, which have more support, more cushion, and better traction on the floor. I always try to have the latter on hand (foot?) when heading for a variable or unfamiliar floor. If you like the Capezzios, I recommend getting the style with the rubber heel, which gives you more traction (without interfering with pivoting) than the style where the entire sole is suede. Good luck! Tom ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:21:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:17:41 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Tempos To: The Dupres (Return requested), ECD List (Return requested) Message-ID: <"01F8D322DC7C502C*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Note back to Sue - How fascinating it is to try to describe tempos with words! I agree with you that Colliers Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but it also has a feel to me that is "rompy" , but perhaps there is a better word. to describe what the 1's are doing in the A part - there is a certain joyousness and playfullness in the "pull by" out of a 2 hand turn and going below to meet (not rushed) just in time with the music for the next 2 hand turn - and then they get to do it again! I did like your comment about finding the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance, I will add it to my other two moments that I look for when teaching a dance - the magic moment (or moments!) in each dance and the moment which is likely to give the dancers the most problems (e.g., timing, locational, unusual, habit breaking, etc.) ---------- From: The Dupres To: 'ECD List' Subject: Tempos Date: Saturday, August 31, 1996 5:14PM Good evening, all! To John Forbes' list please add a critical parameter: > The figures of the dance As Gene Murrow suggested in his English dance leadership week last year at Pinewoods, find the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance and set the tempo by that figure. As an example (and pet peeve of mine), I really dislike rushed setting - setting loses energy, spring and athleticism when the tempo is too fast. So I would choose a tempo for a dance with setting based to a large extent on the existence of that figure. (Not surprisingly, I think balancing in contra dances has lost its power and rhythmicity (such a word?) because modern contra dance tempos are too fast to balance to, as I learned to balance in the late 70s). And a quick note to Nan: "Collier's Daughter" rompy?! What different experiences we all have of these dances! (either that, or how differently we all use the English language!) To me, Collier's Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but I'd never call it rompy, quite the contrary. What a surprise! Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:48:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:48:23 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: Tempos To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A7DDF.70D3D002.27-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Nan said: How fascinating it is to try to describe tempos with words! I agree with you that Colliers Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but it also has a feel to me that is "rompy" , but perhaps there is a better word. to describe what the 1's are doing in the A part - there is a certain joyousness and playfullness in the "pull by" out of a 2 hand turn and going below to meet (not rushed) just in time with the music for the next 2 hand turn - and then they get to do it again! Interesting. I don't get the "rompy" feel there -- probably because of the smoothness of the music and the key it's in -- but I definitely get it in the same transition in "Jack's Health" using the "Bolt the Door" tune, though not with the original tune. I note that Fried Herman, in "Ease and Elegance", specifically discourages the use of "pull by" in ECD. (She describes an incident where the leader used "pull by", her partner really pulled, and she was injured.) I don't see any harm in it myself. She has an interesting 30 pages on her philosophy of dance, dance teaching, and dance construction, which is unlikely to inspire universal agreement but is good reading nonetheless. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:43:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:21:41 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: FW: Tempos To: ecd (Return requested) Message-ID: <"0708E322E00F5019*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ---------- From: EVANS Nan E To: The Dupres; 'ECD List' Subject: RE: Tempos Date: Tuesday, September 03, 1996 12:14PM Note back to Sue - How fascinating it is to try to describe tempos with words! I agree with you that Colliers Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but it also has a feel to me that is "rompy" , but perhaps there is a better word. to describe what the 1's are doing in the A part - there is a certain joyousness and playfullness in the "pull by" out of a 2 hand turn and going below to meet (not rushed) just in time with the music for the next 2 hand turn - and then they get to do it again! I did like your comment about finding the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance, I will add it to my other two moments that I look for when teaching a dance - the magic moment (or moments!) in each dance and the moment which is likely to give the dancers the most problems (e.g., timing, locational, unusual, habit breaking, etc.) ---------- From: The Dupres To: 'ECD List' Subject: Tempos Date: Saturday, August 31, 1996 5:14PM Good evening, all! To John Forbes' list please add a critical parameter: > The figures of the dance As Gene Murrow suggested in his English dance leadership week last year at Pinewoods, find the most tempo-dependent figure in the dance and set the tempo by that figure. As an example (and pet peeve of mine), I really dislike rushed setting - setting loses energy, spring and athleticism when the tempo is too fast. So I would choose a tempo for a dance with setting based to a large extent on the existence of that figure. (Not surprisingly, I think balancing in contra dances has lost its power and rhythmicity (such a word?) because modern contra dance tempos are too fast to balance to, as I learned to balance in the late 70s). And a quick note to Nan: "Collier's Daughter" rompy?! What different experiences we all have of these dances! (either that, or how differently we all use the English language!) To me, Collier's Daughter is mesmerizing and driving, but I'd never call it rompy, quite the contrary. What a surprise! Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:40:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:33:59 -0400 From: The Dupres Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BB9AA9.7DF3C9A0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi! Some of my thoughts in response to Jonathan's question: I don't have an extensive repertoire of "traditional dances" but I do love to include some in my programming. The ones in my repertoire (almost all of which are from the Community Dance Manuals) which I think of as exuberant are: The Foula Reel Pins and Needles La Russe Quadrille Virginia Reel Walpole Cottage The Willow Tree But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as exuberant. Without thinking about it too long, here's a quick short list, presented in no particular order at all: The Spaniard Christchurch Bells Mount Hills (from the Fallinbroome Collection) Highland Lilt (from the O'Neal Collection) The Young Widow The Hunting of Foxes (from "Country Dances of Colonial America" by Millar) Dublin Bay Hey, Boys, Up Go We Sellenger's Round The Physical Snob Got other suggestions? I'm not a big fan of dance programs that feature a predominance of romantic, soppy, schmaltzy, flowing dances but I have a great love for many Playford, Playford-style and other historic dances, especially early Playford, and hate to see the whole Playford genre take a bad rap. If you need further information about sources for these dances, please let me know. Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:52:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Films-- Regency Conga? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just finished viewing "Princess Caraboo". The dancing in the ball scene includes one which has Prinny getting everyone into a single-file sort of conga line through the premises. Is this something real of the period? Will ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:04:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 22:19:04 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <322E46A8.52F0-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <01BB9AA9.7DF3C9A0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> The Dupres wrote: > > > But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances > to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as > exuberant. > Highland Lilt (from the O'Neal Collection) Sue - I have had difficulty with the music for this dance and am not sure how it fits. Rich Jackson: are you listening? My edition of the Neal book has 8 bars of music not marked A or B but the bars given in the dance directions indicate 8 bars for an A music and 8 bars for a B section. I would very much like to do this dance but haven't come to any consensus about it. Is the B missing? Is the music really A1, A2, A3, A4, B1, B2, B3, B4? Help! (And Rich, I promise to dance with your little boy any ole day, if you can figure this out for me - actually I would gladly dance with him even if you don't!) Mother Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:23:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:20:18 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Pull By To: ecd (Return requested) Message-ID: <"06A9F322E38E2004*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan said - Fried's discussion in "Ease and Elegance" is an excellent read. But, another comment. There is no excuse for one dancer harming another in any move - a "pull by" or any other. This is one instance when regardless of the terms a teacher uses, a dancer should be dancing in a way to avoid hurting others (of course, accidents do happen, but. we all need to be very aware of/responsible for our movements and actions.) Fried also says that she prefers the elbow turn when doing arming rather than the forearm hold, because of injuries she has received from dancers pinching or gripping so hard that her arm was bruised. I personally like the forearm hold for some dances, it gives me a better sense of connection. I think as a teacher one of my responsibilities is to instill the awareness in the dancers not to give discomfort to others regardless of the specific move. This also applies to an awareness that different dance partners will have different sensitivities and physical limitations. As to the "pull by" in Colliers Daughter. The other option is to drop hands (or disconnect) out of the 2 hand turn and then cross the set without a physical connection between the 1's. I really like to maintain the connection and energy that flows out of the 2 hand turn, a pull by makes sense to me. Nan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:44:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: 'ECD List' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, The Dupres wrote: > But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances > to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as > exuberant. Without thinking about it too long, here's a quick short list, > presented in no particular order at all: [snipped the list] > Got other suggestions? Well, I've always thought "Take a Dance" exuberant, and around here, at least, "Trip to Paris" usually turns into a minor riot. > I'm not a big fan of dance programs that feature a predominance of > romantic, soppy, schmaltzy, flowing dances but I have a great love for many > Playford, Playford-style and other historic dances, especially early > Playford, and hate to see the whole Playford genre take a bad rap. Same here; I for one don't want to give Playford a bad rap, just want to see other dances *in addition to* Playford. (As a musician, I love playing the Playford tunes better than any music I have ever played. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying other things too.) Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 02:24:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:45:40 +0100 From: Rhodri Davies Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9609050845.AA00358-AT- michigan.esoft.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01BB9AA9.7DF3C9A0-AT- dupre.nerc.com> The Dupres writes: > Hi! Some of my thoughts in response to Jonathan's question: I don't have > an extensive repertoire of "traditional dances" but I do love to include > some in my programming. The ones in my repertoire (almost all of which are > from the Community Dance Manuals) which I think of as exuberant are: > > The Willow Tree ...... > But you don't have to look outside Playford-style or other historic dances > to find some great dances that, by my definition and experience, qualify as > exuberant. Without thinking about it too long, here's a quick short list, > presented in no particular order at all: > > Mount Hills (from the Fallinbroome Collection) > Highland Lilt (from the O'Neal Collection) ...... > > Got other suggestions? > Calling the Willow tree a traditional dance may be stretching the description a little, though I grant that it is almost universally regarded as such. If memory serves me correctly (I don't have my source material at work), it is based on a traditional Dutch dance called "Gort Med Stroop", but the version in common use was really put together by Hugh Rippon. This is, of course, assuming that it is the same dance on both sides of the Atlantic: 8 couple longways with some galloping ad a strip the willow to the middle. As for some more historic but exuberant dances: Alderman's Hat Miss Sayer's Allemande My Lord Byron's Maggot Geud Man of Ballangigh Rhod -- Dr. Rhodri M. Davies Tel: +44 (0)161 776 4498 Engineering Software Ltd Fax: +44 (0)161 776 2680 Carrington Business Park Email: rhodri.davies-AT- esoft.co.uk Manchester M31 4XL WWW: http://www.esoft.co.uk =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 05:21:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:19:52 -0400 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: An accumulation of thoughts To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609051219.IAA08357-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary: I don't have the Neal book here at work, I will try to remember to look it up for you. "Pulling by": I don't personally like a pull by in Collier's Daughter, I agree with Nan Evans, finish the turn and drop back. It definitely does have a time and place (Jack's Health) Injuring your partner: As a teacher I try to discourage this. When dancing you should be in control of your movements and working with your partner so something like a "pull by" or turning your partner under should be fairly safe. I have taken a cue from Scottish dancers for the fore-arm turn. They teach it with the thumb tucked in next to the rest of the fingers and the hand cupped under your partners elbow, instead of squeezing the forearm between fingers and thumb. I am also tempted to teach this with a contra-style turn at times. "Exuberant" dances: Old Noll's Jig Humors of Dublin (Neal book) Look Both Ways Elverton Grove etc., etc., etc. There is more than one teacher out there who doesn't teach skipping. Either leaving it to the collective memory of the dancers to remember that skipping belongs there, or "letting the dancers decide" when to skip. I never insist that a dancer skip in any part of the dance. I will recommend it either because it is tough to get through the dance in time without it, or because it is fun. ( A quote from a contra dancer after I taught Look Both Ways; "That was the best dance I have ever done that didn't have a swing in it") Tempi Please! Please! Please! Don't fall into the faulty logic trap: Contra dances are faster than English dances More people like Contra dances than like English dances. Therefore, if I make the English dances faster, more people will like them. How about the following logic: Basketball players play in shorts and dribble a ball More people like Basketball than Contra Dancing Therefore if we do contra dancing in shorts and dribbling a ball, more people will like it. I think the reason more people do Contra dancing than English dancing is that it is more approachable. The variety of steps and figures is more limited. It takes less teaching. English Dancing takes a little more work and thus requires a little more dedication. We shouldn't try to turn ECD into contra dancing any more than we should turn Contra Dancing into basketball. We should be finding the dancers who are interested in working a little harder for, in my opinion, a better dance experience. Rich Jackson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:26:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 09:14:48 From: MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Finding music To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9608058419.AA841940088-AT- labts.la.btsint.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have Country Capers on CD by the NY Ren Band, but that's only 25 dances -- more, more, MORE! Does anyone have a good source for recorded Playford music? I've had a friend record a couple tunes on his home synth system, but people mention all these dances I'm unfamiliar with (and boy, do y'all whet my appetite for more), and while I have 1st, 5th and 7th eds of Playford, without musica I'm pretty stuck. The only live music I have access to here in SCA-land have pretty much limited their repetoire to the dances they KNOW the mass of revelers will be able to do on any given evening -- Rufty Tufty, Heart's Ease, Peascods, Sellingers, Jenny PP -- if I want to do more, I need "mechanical minstrels." Thanks all for the shoe tips -- I'm definitely investing in some insoles (now that I actually know what I'm looking for!)! Much obliged! Meg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:34:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: GAFF-AT- neu.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Exuberant Tradirional Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I94DNT8MB290MTFT-AT- neu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Don't forget Old Noll's Jig, Fandango and Barham Down. Many dances are consistent with an exhuberent treatment, or have exhuberent sections. Terry Gaffney ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:56:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If you want to hear more good tunes, try the Broadside Band's recording on the Saydisc label, "English Country Dances". It may be available through CDSS, otherwise Saydisc is carried by many record stores that have a big classical section, and they can order it. The catalog number is CD-SDL 393. The distributor is Qualiton--that may help. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:03:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:59:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Harold Cheyney Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960905145607.473703fa-AT- magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 09:14 AM 9/5/96, you wrote: > > I have Country Capers on CD by the NY Ren Band, but that's only > 25 dances -- more, more, MORE! Does anyone have a good source > for recorded Playford music? I've had a friend record a couple > tunes on his home synth system, but people mention all these > dances I'm unfamiliar with (and boy, do y'all whet my appetite > for more), and while I have 1st, 5th and 7th eds of Playford, > without musica I'm pretty stuck. The only live music I have > access to here in SCA-land have pretty much limited their > repetoire to the dances they KNOW the mass of revelers will be > able to do on any given evening -- Rufty Tufty, Heart's Ease, > Peascods, Sellingers, Jenny PP -- if I want to do more, I need > "mechanical minstrels." > > Thanks all for the shoe tips -- I'm definitely investing in some > insoles (now that I actually know what I'm looking for!)! Much > obliged! > > Meg > > Broadside Band has a CD of Playford tunes. There are about 22 or so on it from various editions of Playford. I don't remember the exact title of the recording. Harold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:32:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I wonder after I've seen the postings on the subject of "exuberant traditional dances" whether people are using "traditional" in the same sense. The way that I have come to understand this term, and others frequently used to describe different phases of English Country Dance in its various forms, is: Playford: strictly, any of the dances published by either of the two Playfords who published dances from about 1651 to 1728; more broadly, any English Country Dances in the general style of the Playford known principally from other publications from the Playford-era up to the early part of the 19th. century. These dances in general have had to be reconstructed from these published sources; people were not doing these dances anywhere anymore as far as we are aware, when they were "rediscovered" at the beginning of this century. Traditional: old dances with many features similarities of form and movement to the Playford dances, but which were still being danced for social entertainment in parts of Britain and/or in places that had the same traditions of dancing; these had been "preserved" by the tradition itself, but we know them mostly from the works of people who collected them, & may have "standardized" them, when they wrote descriptions of what they saw. Other: I don't know a single, unique term for these, but there is at least a concept: dances written this century in connection with and in the spirit of the revivial of interest in ECD both for entertainment and as an art form, in which the elements of style which define Playford and Traditional English Country Dances are used in new compositions, such as the Maggott Pie dances and many creations of folks like Pat Shaw and contemporary dance composers such as Nicholas Broadbridge, Colin Hume, Fried Herman, and many others both in England and elsewhere. I usually call these "modern", "contemporary", or "20th century" ECD. I find than some of the dances which one finds at ceilidhs and barn dances are sufficiently removed from the stylistic elements that I would not call them "modern ECD" but perhaps just "modern English folk dance". What do others think (particularly across the puddle -- is this distinction at all appropriate? it seems to fit the division of dance events into ECD or non-ECD categories over here, but it sounds less useful for the UK...)? Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 17:12:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Actually, Broadside Band has several albums featuring "Playford". And check whether CDSS still has any of the Orange and Blue Band albums. There is also an album of ECD from the French label Atelier-Danse. One of these is an arrangement of "An Old Man is a Bed Full of Bones" scored to include "chante de diddeling" (mouth music). ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 17:20:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT How does one define "folk"? Bear in mind that very few "Playford dances" have proven origins in anything "folk"! Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:06:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:08:49 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609060309.XAA17767-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > How does one define "folk"? Bear in mind that very few "Playford > dances" have proven origins in anything "folk"! > > Julia Sutton I should know better than starting a discussion of what folk is. There are as many opinions as former Italian governments. But here goes anyway . . . I've always thought of "folk" as applying more to evolution than to origin. A folk song is folk because it has evolved through oral transmission, not because we were unable to trace it to the original author. The folklorist Ken Goldstein even maintained that a folk song stopped being folk when it stopped evolving. IMHO, contra dancing is a folk dance form because the dance form has evolved (and continues to evolve) through whatever you want to call the way we have collectively molded it over the years. It matters not that most of the dances we now do were composed recently by known authors. "Playford" ECD is an odd duck, having been intentionally recreated by Cecil Sharp out of a dance form, from the 17th and 18th centuries, that is not usually considered "folk." Nevertheless, it too has certainly evolved over the last 70 years and now even includes diverging regional styles. To the extent that callers call dances "the way we dance them" rather than by the book, I would argue that we can consider "Playford" ECD a "folk" dance form. Oddly, I've seen little evolution in traditional ECD. That may be because we don't do many traditional dances in our area. We tend to treat them like some exotic spice that we keep on the back shelf for years and use only rarely and sparingly to give a dish an unusual or special flavor. The situation is probably different in other dance communities. Just my highly-biased opinions. YMMV :-) ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:40:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:38:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD list Message-ID: <960906033804_71332.2116_GHL99-3-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Great to see Julia Sutton on the list! Welcome, Julia. Speaking of the difficulty in defining "folk", ECD-ers may have seen the review of Georgina Boyes "Imagined Village" in the CDSS Journal, or heard about it at the Amherst Assembly. This is a comprehensive, well-documented, and eye-opening history of Cecil Sharp's work, the English folk "Revival" and the E.F.D.S.S., with all skeletons brought out from many, many closets (Even that quintessential 1990's issue-- "gender balance"-- has had a long and tumultuous history. For example, Rolf Gardiner's founding of the Teutonic-influenced, all-male Morris Ring in the 30's was in good part a reaction to women's dominance in Revival Morris and country dance classes!) Until recently, the book was only available in a $79.95 university press edition, but it has just been issued in paperback by St. Martin's press for only $ 19.95. Well worth reading by all ECD and "ritual" dance enthusiasts. Wear your seat belt. Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:40:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:38:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Films-- Regency Conga? To: ECD list Message-ID: <960906033801_71332.2116_GHL99-2-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Will! Don't know anything of the film you referred to... I thought "Regency Conga" was a pretty good take on the cast followed by cast followed by cast followed by cast... ending to Mr. Beveridge's Maggot in the recent film of Jane Austen's "Emma" :-) !! Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:40:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 23:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD list Message-ID: <960906033759_71332.2116_GHL99-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In my opinion, Rich Jackson's brilliant contra/basketball analogy is right on. It also suggests a great new concept (in my perverted brain) -- a contest for the best English dance or contra which can be done while keeping a basketball dribbled throughout. I've done Geud Man of Ballangigh while playing the tune on an accordion all the way down the set-- probably could be done dribbling a basketball. Gives new meaning to "Playford Ball", consisting, of course, of "court dances". Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:08:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:09:58 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >In my opinion, Rich Jackson's brilliant contra/basketball analogy is right on. > >It also suggests a great new concept (in my perverted brain) -- a contest for >the best English dance or contra which can be done while keeping a basketball >dribbled throughout. Well, there *was* the CD*NY Mardi Gras dance a few years ago in which Sharon came up with the idea of combining Kitchen Triad with a pancake relay -- each active couple had to flip their (plastic lid) pancakes during the stars and then gracefully [sic] turn over the pans and pancakes to the next actives... But for enticing the younger set, basketball dances seem just the thing! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:41:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:28:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: Mac McKeever , Jeanette Soleil , Margaret Goodman Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene Murrow's suggestion is a good one: choreograph a dance to be done while dribbling a basketball throughout. My intuitive guess is that this will work better as a contra than ECD, but I may be wrong. Going with that, let's think about which moves will work in such a context: WILL WORK: Allemandes Down hall and back as couples* Courtesy turn* Hey for four Right and left over Do-si-do (hell, they do that in basketball a lot already) Gypsy (if you're careful) WON't WORK: Balance? Swing Down hall and back four-in-line (at least not without some passing) Long lines forward and back Sashay California twirl MAYBE, MAYBE NOT: Box the gnat Stars The moves marked with asterisks will depend on who's carrying the ball(s). If both active man and active woman are dribbling basketballs, one of them will have to work righty, the other lefty, which will require some consideration in choosing partners. This could be fun. What happens to people guilty of travelling? Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 02:24:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:03:49 +0100 From: Rhodri Davies Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9609060903.AA02931-AT- michigan.esoft.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: Paul J. Stamler writes: > Gene Murrow's suggestion is a good one: choreograph a dance to be done > while dribbling a basketball throughout. My intuitive guess is that this > will work better as a contra than ECD, but I may be wrong. Going with > that, let's think about which moves will work in such a context: > > WON't WORK: > Balance? I think this one might depend on which kind of balance you use :-) No if you are doing on the the English ceilidh kick balances you could pass the ball from side to side under your legs as you balance. Rhod ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:33:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:32:56 -0400 From: nparr-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu (Nancy Parr (Hitchcock Center)) Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609061132.HAA16222-AT- k12.oit.umass.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From Gene Murrow: >In my opinion, Rich Jackson's brilliant contra/basketball analogy is right on. > >It also suggests a great new concept (in my perverted brain) -- a contest for >the best English dance or contra which can be done while keeping a basketball >dribbled throughout. > >I've done Geud Man of Ballangigh while playing the tune on an accordion all the >way down the set-- probably could be done dribbling a basketball. Here in Amherst, cutting edge of dancing, we have in the past done whole dances keeping ballons aloft or passing nylons frisbees. With a bit of practice, our experienced dancers could extend their skills in this new direction. >Gives new meaning to "Playford Ball", consisting, of course, of "court dances". Also combined dance and basketball camps. Hey, throw in a bit of computer time and thousands of youngsters will sign up. Teachers can start doing ECD workshops for professional athletes. Half-time shows. What potential! [Seriously, the reason I dance contras *in addition* to ECD is that the fun and play factor tends to be higher in proportion to the lecture and "do it just so" factor. Maybe a little basketball wouldn't hurt! ;-)] Nancy Parr ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 05:07:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:05:28 -0400 From: rjackso1-AT- mcfly.sanders.lockheed.com (Richard Jackson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: At great risk To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609061205.IAA00689-AT- thole.sanders.lockheed.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At the risk of stretching this discussion any further: If you shoot a three point shot in triple-time, do you get nine points? I want to hear Marv Albert doing the play-by-play: He casts, he shoots, he scores. I promise I will never use a sports analogy again!! Rich ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 05:34:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:34:26 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906073426.2344-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT I'm re-reading Georginia Boyes' book just now and have just finished re- reading Roy Judge's very fine "Mary Neal and the Espérance Morris, the American Morris Newsletter reprint of 1993. Both are very fine consider- ations of the early revival situation. They make a fine contrast to the various hagiographies (portrayal of the subject as a saint?) one finds when trying to consider Cecil Sharp. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 06:24:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:24:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Then one could have choreographed professional & serious amateur basketball games, too. They'd be done somewhat like opera & ballet, with named stars in specific roles -- can't you imagine saying "Hey! They're doing `The Royal Dunk' and "Casting for Buckets" back-to-back down at the Playford Arena on Saturday with Michael Jordan [I think he's a basketball player, isn't he???] as Edward VI & The Bouncin' Billies playing!" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 06:33:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:32:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "David R. Woolf" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Atlanta's English Weekend To: ECD list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Once again . . . English Country Dance Atlanta presents the Second Annual Maggots, Gypsies, and Other Divertissements a weekend of English Country (and contra) Dance featuring . . . ********************************************* Earl Gaddis Jacqueline Schwab Daron Douglas with Brad Foster teaching and prompting ********************************************** $36 for the weekend (in advance) September 27, 28 & 29, 1996 Atlanta, Georgia You can find the brochure at: userwww.service.emory.edu/~dwoolf/weekend.html Or e-mail name and address to: dwoolf-AT- emory.edu or call the Atlanta Dance Hotline at 404/351-DANC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Woolf Emory Eye Center W - 404/778-4121 Emory University H - 404/355-2827 Atlanta, GA 30322 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:25:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:44:56 +0000 From: Bob Archer Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <842010383.13574.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric Arnold wrote: > I wonder after I've seen the postings on the subject of "exuberant > traditional dances" whether people are using "traditional" in the same > sense. The way that I have come to understand this term, and others > frequently used to describe different phases of English Country Dance in > its various forms, is: > > Playford I'd agree with Eric's definition of Playford. I know some people in the UK who tend to say '17th and 18th century dances' just to cover themselves on dances from other collections. > > Traditional: old dances with many features similarities of form > and movement to the Playford dances, but which were still > being danced for social entertainment in parts of Britain > and/or in places that had the same traditions of dancing; > these had been "preserved" by the tradition itself, but we > know them mostly from the works of people who collected > them, & may have "standardized" them, when they wrote > descriptions of what they saw. I'm not so sure about this definition of 'traditional'. I think the things that is worrying me is the 'similarities of form and movement to the Playford dances'. It seems to me that this could cover a multitude of dance forms E.g. Playford dances have stars, heys, longways progressions, grand squares etc. as found in many modern contras and squares. I have always tended to think of traditional dances as things like Morpeth Rant, Winster Galop, The Rifleman, Bonny Breast Knot - the sort of dances found in the early Community Dance Manuals ( although the EFDSS did 'standardise' some dances for the CDMs ) > > Other: I don't know a single, unique term for these, but there is > at least a concept: dances written this century in > connection with and in the spirit of the revivial of > interest in ECD both for entertainment and as an art > form, in which the elements of style which define Playford > and Traditional English Country Dances are used in new > compositions, such as the Maggott Pie dances and many > creations of folks like Pat Shaw and contemporary dance > composers such as Nicholas Broadbridge, Colin Hume, Fried > Herman, and many others both in England and elsewhere. I > usually call these "modern", "contemporary", or "20th > century" ECD. This is the really interesting category, and probably the one that most of the dances in my repertoire fit into. Recently composed but drawing on elements of Playford and traditional dances. How should one categorise a dance written entirely in the Playford style done to a tune in the Playford style both of which were composed in the 1990s? > > I find than some of the dances which one finds at ceilidhs and barn dances > are sufficiently removed from the stylistic elements that I would not call > them "modern ECD" but perhaps just "modern English folk dance". What do > others think (particularly across the puddle -- is this distinction at all > appropriate? it seems to fit the division of dance events into ECD or > non-ECD categories over here, but it sounds less useful for the UK...)? I'm not sure what you mean by ECD so I'm not sure how to interpret the term "modern ECD". Certainly many of the dances done at ceilidhs in England are stylistically different to Playford dances ( although still drawing on many of the same elements - stars etc. mentioned above ) but with the emphasis on simple, enjoyable dances. I'm not sure how worried we should get about categories. On the one hand I don't want all forms of dance to end up as a homogeneous mush but on the other hand it's possible to get more involved in categorising dances than in actually dancing them and enjoying them. I recently called at a wedding and was given very firm instructions that they wanted a ceilidh, not a barn dance. Since I have no idea what the difference is I did exactly the same program as I would have done if I had been asked to make it a barn dance rather than a ceilidh. No one seemed to mind. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:55:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:16:51 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrati To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances Rich Galloway wrote > How does one define "folk"? Bear in mind that very few "Playford > dances" have proven origins in anything "folk"! > > Julia Sutton #004#I've always thought of "folk" as applying more to evolution than to origin. A folk song is folk because it has evolved through oral transmission, not because we were unable to trace it to the original author. "Playford" ECD ...... too has certainly evolved over the last 70 years and now even includes diverging regional styles. To the extent that callers call dances "the way we dance them" rather than by the book, I would argue that we can consider "Playford" ECD a "folk" dance form. Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== I think that is one of the best definitions of that slippery category of "folk" things that I have ever come across. This applies very well to the situation of Irish harp music, which was the classical music of it's day, composed by known, named individuals (e.g. O'Carolan), but nowadays, at least in this country, is played pretty exclusively within the "folk" context (and some of the tunes, like "Sheebeg and Sheemore" are passed down as traditional Appalachian tunes with, I am sure, no knowledge of the origins on the part of the players.) Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:56:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:47:26 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An accumulation of thoug To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>An accumulation of thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tempi Please! Please! Please! Don't fall into the faulty logic trap: Contra dances are faster than English dances More people like Contra dances than like English dances. Therefore, if I make the English dances faster, more people will like them. I think the reason more people do Contra dancing than English dancing is that it is more approachable. The variety of steps and figures is more limited. It takes less teaching. English Dancing takes a little more work and thus requires a little more dedication. We shouldn't try to turn ECD into contra dancing any more than we should turn Contra Dancing into basketball. We should be finding the dancers who are interested in working a little harder for, in my opinion, a better dance experience. Rich Jackson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please also don't fall into the trap of thinking that contra dances are wildly successful and for that reason ECD should be emulating them. Speaking as someone heavily involved in organizing contra dancing I can tell you that most dances that I am involved with or hear anything about are struggling to keep going and keep attracting people! In my, anything but humble (and bound to get me into trouble), opinion one of the major reasons for this is that the dance element of contra dancing has become so diluted that people who were originally attracted to the contra scene for the pleasure of dancing (i.e. making specific, choreographed movements in time to music) are leaving it in droves for more disciplined and challenging forms such as swing and, yes, English. Contra dancing has been taken over by an ideology and practice of plain, wild mindless motion, with no discipline, no attention to timing, phrasing or even understanding that the music is there as more than background. Even the concept that people could improve their dancing is attacted as dangerously antidemocratic and counter the "inclusive" spirit of contra dancing which seems to be the lowest common denominator of movement. As a result, the dancers who haven't left are those with the least interest in dance as a discipline, and the new people coming in (and to the extent that our dance is thriving it is because of a large influx of newcomers) have no example of a higher, level of dance ability. Personally, as I have become a better dancer over time, I have found contra less and less satisfying, and English much more so. I realize that one can go overboard in the direction of attention to technical detail to the point of sacrificing all fun, but I would hate to see English go in the direction that I see contra having gone, of turning into simply wild athleticism with a musical background. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:28:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:28:36 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: An accumulation of thoug To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906112836.3233-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Some years ago I attended a contra dance evening in another part of the country (No, I won't mention the location--ever). I stayed for two (2) dances and left. I thought I was in the middle of the famous, old Green Bay Packers powere-sweep to the right. And I couldn't tell if I as part of the defense or the offense. Let me hasten to add that I have definitely not given up on contra dancing and had a delightful time in early August at Glen Echo near Wash. D. C. I was especially pleased at the variety of dancing abilities. This was not an 'advanced dance' in any way and the experienced dancers were kind (more than tolerant, I felt) to the beginning/medium level folks. Is the contra dance movement, as described by Barbara Ruth, having attrition problems on the level of the modern square dance folks? Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:30:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:29:47 -0400 From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Finding music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906122945_278795272-AT- emout18.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-05 18:34:42 EDT, you write: << I have Country Capers on CD by the NY Ren Band, but that's only 25 dances -- more, more, MORE! Does anyone have a good source for recorded Playford music? >> The Broadside Band recordings mentioned in other posts are "English Country Dances from Playford's Dancing Master 1651-1703" and "John Playford's Popular Tunes". The "Orange and Blue Band" recordings to which someone else referred are a set of 4 cassettes entitled "The English Dancing Master." I've purchased all these recently from CDSS (whose catalog of recordings is online at http://www.cdss.org/), so they are available. Carol ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:26:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:22:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT You know, about 15 years ago a local college football team hired a friend of mine, Ruth Birnberg, to give instruction in modern dance to the players. They thought the whole idea was ridiculous at first, until they found out what it did for their coordination...then you should have seen those macho jock-types dance! Ruth said they turned into pretty good dancers, too. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:42:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:42:06 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>Ball dribbling/dancing The astounding modern dance troup Pilobolus got its start when a bunch of jocks at Dartmouth decided to take a modern dance class. . . -------------------------------------- You know, about 15 years ago a local college football team hired a friend of mine, Ruth Birnberg, to give instruction in modern dance to the players. They thought the whole idea was ridiculous at first, until they found out what it did for their coordination...then you should have seen those macho jock-types dance! Ruth said they turned into pretty good dancers, too. Peace. Paul ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by QuickMail.Yale.edu with SMTP;6 Sep 1996 14:34:56 -0400 Received: from SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU by mail-relay1.cis.yale.edu with SMTP id AA01188 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:28:06 -0400 X-Listname: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sender: owner-ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:22:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:56:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:56:45 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A7F72.F0C67A32.30-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Can anyone here analyze the basketball/football dribbling/carrying suitability of the following dances: The Goose and the Gridiron Hoop't Petticoat Rural Sports (or, when going for the extra point) Hit and Miss -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:20:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:09:03 -0700 From: robert-AT- slipknot.rain.com Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT pstamler-AT- crl.com wrote: |Gene Murrow's suggestion is a good one: choreograph a dance to be done |while dribbling a basketball throughout. My intuitive guess is that this |will work better as a contra than ECD, but I may be wrong. Going with |that, let's think about which moves will work in such a context: |WILL WORK: |[snip] Basketball players are not limited to dribbling with one hand. Why would you limit these mythical dancers? Several of the figures in your WON'T WORK column become quite feasible when you allow passing from hand to hand. Speculating that every partner has a ball (and has a good time, too ;-), interesting variations could be formed on whether the respective partners/neighors/corners exchange their bounding spheriods in the maneuver or not. [I've lurked on this list long enough. It was time to come out.] ________________________________________________________________________________ Robert Reed Home Animation Limited 503-656-8414 email: robert-AT- slipknot.rain.com West Linn, OR 97068 A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore. --Yogi Berra ________________________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:47:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:47:36 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: Rich Galloway CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Next question: what is "form." In music, drama, painting, art, poetry it means structure. Many dancers use it, however, to mean style or type. I would like to see them join the other arts in their use of terminology, so they can converse with artists and performers in the other arts, and also save the word "form" for a more useful purpose. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:18:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:18:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, julia s sutton wrote: > Next question: what is "form." In music, drama, painting, art, poetry it > means structure. Many dancers use it, however, to mean style or type. I > would like to see them join the other arts in their use of terminology, so > they can converse with artists and performers in the other arts, and also > save the word "form" for a more useful purpose. In my description of what the term "traditional" meant to me when used to qualify English Country dance, I was thinking of the configuration of the set when I used "form". Is this the kind of structure that you are thinking of, Julia, or something more dynamic, as one might think of "structure" in a musical composition? Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:26:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:24:43 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960906162443.3522-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia Sutton speaks elegantly to a particularly critical aspect of dance perception. I find the form or pattern of dance movements so very similar to the form of the accompanying music. Think of this in terms "departure and return." In the majority of dances, the music begins in a certain key, starting with the main chord of that key. The music departs to other chords within that key or to other keys/tonal centers. As the round of the dance ends, the music returns to the original key, the key in which the music began. So do the figures, the whole Contra dance concept is predicated upon an opening formation, a series of departures in physical location through a series of physical movements, but always returning to the basic formation but down/up one couple (In 'Beckett' formation, it's one couple's worth around the oblong). Note the number of dance tunes that, say, begin in a minor key, move to the relative major key at the end of the first section, start the second section in that same major key and then return to the opening minor sonority. Scarlatti based much of his musical career on this approach. Many of our favorite "Playford" dances do much the same. Think of where you go and how the formation re-figures in, say, "Newcastle." Weren't you surprised, the first time, when you smashed through the last set of lines and found yourself 'back home?" Another concept of form is the thematic elements that hold the whole together, a combining of aesthetically pleasing units to a satisfying total. Music for "The Black Nag" comes to mind. The A and B parts contrast with one another, but the similarities help hold it together. In the dance proper, it's the combination of USA (Love that concept) as one set of unifying ideas, dance to dance, combined with the repetition of a unique chorus---Upon a Summer's Day, Gathering Peascods, and so many others. Even the 'through-composed' works often have a sense of unity, aided, for the most part, by the use of the dance formation itself. At the personal/emotional level, I believe form is not a carefully observed/ analyzed element by most of us. The dance is fun or it's not. It gives aesthetic return for the effort or it does not (Think of 'ranting' here). In part, this is because the dances, as we do them today, are non-competitive in nature. Morris is competitive. A minuet, in my mind, was originally a competitive dance--not only for the dancers but for their personal dancing masters as well. Here, form, physical/personal, the necessity to follow fairly exact floor patterns, the form of your clothing and its impact on the dance, these (and more) are the varieties of formal arrangements that impact on (a) dance and our likely, personal, thoughts regarding it. Sorry to be so long. If you need anything translated, let me know. John Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 15:42:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 18:41:57 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric, By structure in dance I mean exactly what is meant by structure in music: the large and small elements that together make up a "form" such as ternary, binary, variation, refrain, etc. Does that help? So little analysis of dance has been done that it's wide open for careful work and publication. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 15:51:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 18:51:16 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John, Despite some very good ideas, John, your particular parallels with music are questionably. In the early period of the Playford dances, for example, it was not customary to modulate away from the home key, or tonic, as we call it. The return to home place in the dance form has more to do, I think, with the aesthetic requirement of symmetry--a very powerful one at that time--than with the tonic key (later, of course, your parallel may apply; that is, when the concept of tonality became fully established, and leaving it and returning to it became an important principle of musical composition). Other concepts, such as variation form, refrain form, ternary form, were the same in music and dance; the comparison of dance form with poetic form is also quite close. I'll look at your letter in more detail again, and respond further, after I've recovered from jet lag! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:41:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:21:57 +0000 From: Bob Archer Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <842041385.8690.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Robert Reed wrote: > Basketball players are not limited to dribbling with one hand. Why would you > limit these mythical dancers? Several of the figures in your WON'T WORK column > become quite feasible when you allow passing from hand to hand. Speculating > that every partner has a ball (and has a good time, too ;-), interesting > variations could be formed on whether the respective partners/neighors/corners > exchange their bounding spheriods in the maneuver or not. A couple I know in England used to take their small children to festivals and dance whilst carrying them. They'd hold them in the crook of their left arm whilst doing a right hand star, then swap them ( with practised ease ) to the other arm to come back with a left hand star. I never actually saw them swap the children between each other though. I almost put a new subject in the heading - "Dribbling babies" but decided against it. Off topic slightly, there is a branch of juggling known as joggling where people run whilst juggling up to 5 balls and set some extremely impressive times ( my 1990 copy of Guiness lists 100m in 11.9s whilst juggling 3 and 100m in 13.8s whilst juggling 5 although I think that both of these records have been broken ). Veering slightly back towards the topic, there was a dance at Sidmouth a few years ago where a number of people turned up with helium balloons tied to themselves. The dip and dives were great!! Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 07:42:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John, I've just looked at your letter on form in dance again, and this time want to comment on your view of the minuet. I have studied it extensively, and written a fairly extensive monograph on the various theories of its origin, the factual bases for those theories, and on its history--it's in Dance Chronicle 8, 1985. On the basis of my studies I would have to say that competition plays no part in any minuet I know of. If you have any concrete evidence to the contrary I'd appreciate hearing of it and seeing it. Fundamentally, the minuet is typical of couple dances, the chief purpose is flirtation while making beautiful designs on the floor and demonstrating oneself to the opposite sex (and the onlookers) as a work of art. The minuet is a variation form, each figure done to one playing of the music. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:04:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 14:04:19 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960907140419.3522-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia Sutton/John Forbes Thank you for your comments on the minuet. The difficulty in dealing with dance history is the ideal "ought to" vs. the realities of social context. I respect your work very much and have followed a good deal of it over the years. But I have also chosen to read the writings of those who satirize, poke fun, indicate the realities of the given situation where the minuet (a dance type I chose at random as one of the three dances likely to be done at, say, a ball in late 18th centuy America) is more than just a dance event, more than music and figure execution. IMHO, dancing masters competed for pupils. To do that, the efforts of their pupils had to serve as part of their advertising. Also, the general impact I get is that the men had less time and interest in dancing well, spent less time studying/practicing. Thus, the dancing master's unenviable task was to make the couple, his students, look good in their dance without unduly taxing the male half of the pair, yet pleasing the female portion. I came to these ideas some years ago when I did a fairly intensive study of dancing masters in early Baltimore. I'm at work, away from my sources, so I can only recall that the 20th century secondary material covering that period, profession, and intent of periodical ads, was relatively poor. A fairly complete survey of the ads from the newspapers themselves had much to say about the up-and-coming, established, and tutors of the rich dancing masters. It became apparent to me, through that work and other context reading of the day, that this was indeed the case, competition between dancing masters was carried out, in part, through the dance performance image created by their students on the dance floor. While contra and, in a sense, ECD too, are primarily social dances, done for enjoyment, interaction, and responding to the music, I hold a number of them as being somewhat competitive. One that comes to mind is "Well Hall." To do the dance gracefully, not maudlin, not mawkish, to get the timing right in terms of the phrases, to do the turn singles in time and in the right direction, and to do so (with my partner) better than anyone else in the longways set--that's competition to me. I write a column, "Thinking About Dance," in the Lloyd Shaw Foundation quarterly, "The American Dance Circle." About six years to eight years ago (again, I'm away from my sources) I covered the Baltimore situation and my concepts of different dance "Communities," from a community of one, to the whole group dancing at a given evening. I believe some of my views, held then and now, are described there. With all good wishes and respect, John M. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:51:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:51:39 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John, Some further thoughts re the minuet and your theory of competition: 1) "Competitive" types of dances usually involve an alternation between partners, not to be found in the minuet. 2) Real competition would not, of course, have been conceived of between male and female in the 17th and 18th centuries. Playful competition is another matter, of course. Two dance types of the 16th century alternate from one partner to the other: the galliard and the canary. Even here, however, each member of the couple is hoping to enamor the other rather than truly compete. To my knowledge there are no such dances in the 17th and 18th centuries. I have presented a paper on form in music and dance in the manuals of Caroso and Negri. It's a fair size, but I'd be happy to send you a copy if you'd have time to read it. It would make clear how I, as a dancing musicologist, view form in dance and relate it to form in music. Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:09:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 23:11:45 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Tempi used historically To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609080312.XAA03718-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sorry, I didn't save the message, but someone mentioned not too long ago that we know very little about the tempi used for dancing in the 17th and 18th centuries. While that is generally true, we are not totally in the dark. Many of the dance tunes were also used for songs or for theater music. Although we can't assume that the same tempo would have been used for dancing, the words and singability(??) can at least give us some clues. We also have some contempory guidance in Playford's Introduction to the Skill of Music (1654-1730), which explains what the various time signatures mean. (Harvard's Houghton Library has a nearly complete set of editions of the Introduction to the Skill of Music.) William MacPherson's thesis "The Music of the English Country Dance (1651-1728)" gives a very convenient outline of the time signatures and there meanings (pp. 161-165). E.g., he explains that a cut time (cents) symbol opening to the left means a faster tempo. ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:09:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 23:11:45 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609080312.XAA03721-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sorry, I did not keep John's message, but if I recall correctly, he had said that some ECD tunes start in the major, move to the minor and then return home to the major. He noticed a parallel in the returning home theme to the structure of a typical country dance. (I know I've oversimplified. Forgive me if I've misrepresented what was said.) Julia Sutton replied, > Despite some very good ideas, John, your particular parallels with > music are questionably. In the early period of the Playford dances, > for example, it was not customary to modulate away from the home > key, or tonic, as we call it. By "modulation," are you including the kind of movement between major to minor that John spoke of? I don't read music and know almost zip about music theory and terminology. So, the best I can do is go on feel. Since a fairly large number of ECD tunes "feel" to me like they move between minor and major, I checked further in William MacPherson's thesis "Music of the English Country Dance (1651-1728)." According to MacPherson, although other kinds of modulation are indeed rare in the early Playford period (1651-1657), minor/major movement is fairly common. After that, modulating tunes become much more common. Here is an excerpt (p. 273) that summarizes his conclusions: "In terms of tonal design, country dance tunes may be divided into three classes: those that do not modulate, those that do and a third group that we will call "minor/major tunes." Non-modulating tunes constitute the bulk of the repertoire in the early sources, but by the fourth edition of the _DM_ [Playford's Dancing Master], the numbers of non-modulating and modulating tunes added to each book are almost equal. (see Table 5-VI) Percentage of New Tunes that are Non-modulating, Modulating, or Minor/Major _DM_ editions: 1-3 3(2)A-&A3 8-10 11-18 --------------- --- --------- ---- ----- Non-modulating 65% 39 40 33 Modulating 5 41 38 47 Minor/Major 30 20 22 20" [End of excerpt] ========================================================== Rich Galloway Home: galloway-AT- xis.com 2115 Hanover St. Work: richard_galloway-AT- ed.gov Silver Spring, MD 20910 Fax at work: 202-708-8376 ========================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:09:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 23:11:44 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: julia s sutton , ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609080312.XAA03724-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Next question: what is "form." In music, drama, painting, art, > poetry it means structure. Many dancers use it, however, to mean > style or type. I would like to see them join the other arts in > their use of terminology, so they can converse with artists and > performers in the other arts, and also save the word "form" for a > more useful purpose. > > Julia Sutton I called contra dancing (and later ECD) a dance "form" to try to convey a sense of the interconnections that make it a cohesive entity as opposed to a collection of dances done in a particular style. I intentionally chose a word with connotations of shape and structure. However, your point is well taken. It's best to reserve the word "form" for its more precise meaning. ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 08:10:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 11:09:44 -0400 From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960908110943_474132218-AT- emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-07 23:13:31 EDT, Rich Galloway quotes: << "In terms of tonal design, country dance tunes may be divided into three classes: those that do not modulate, those that do and a third group that we will call "minor/major tunes." >> I've been lurking through this discussion with great interest, but need some help with the distinction between minor/major tunes and modulation! By major/minor tunes, do you mean, for example, a tune in which the A music is in a minor key and the B music in major key, as opposed to a change in key within the same part of the tune? Thanks! Carol Martinez White Plains, N.Y. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 08:47:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 11:46:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Robb Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, julia s sutton wrote: > [competition plays no part in any minuet I know of] > Fundamentally, the minuet is typical of couple dances, the chief > purpose is flirtation while making beautiful designs on the floor and > demonstrating oneself to the opposite sex (and the onlookers) as a work of > art. As wild speculation, wouldn't there have been something of the ilk of competition between the couples who danced it? Just for my own clarification, was the minuet danced one couple at a time, such as in a Caroso Ball, or would there have been many couples on the floor at once? Christine ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 09:31:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 09:31:20 -0700 From: Diane Schmit Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Baltimore Playford Ball To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609081631.JAA20502-AT- dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The 15th Annual Baltimore Playford Ball is Saturday, October 5, with music by Devil Among the Taylors. Details, including the program and registration info, are included at the new BFMS web site, http://www.satelink.net/bfms/events/playfordball.html or contact co-chair Bec Hamadock at bec-AT- pobox.com. Diane Diane Schmit dschmit-AT- ix.netcom.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:19:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Minuets were normally danced one couple at a time, and yes of course there would have been competition among the dancing couples, but that is not built into the dance. Eventually the minuet appears to have succumbed to the contredance craze, and was danced in line or square formations--most of this occurred late in the life of the minuet (that is, toward the end of the 18th century), but there are many exceptions. Julia On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Christine Robb wrote: > On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, julia s sutton wrote: > > > [competition plays no part in any minuet I know of] > > > Fundamentally, the minuet is typical of couple dances, the chief > > purpose is flirtation while making beautiful designs on the floor and > > demonstrating oneself to the opposite sex (and the onlookers) as a work of > > art. > > As wild speculation, wouldn't there have been something of the ilk > of competition between the couples who danced it? > > Just for my own clarification, was the minuet danced one couple at > a time, such as in a Caroso Ball, or would there have been many > couples on the floor at once? > > > Christine > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 13:12:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:09:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD list Message-ID: <960908200946_71332.2116_GHL137-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As this is one of my "pet" topics, I'll join the fray... Discussing major key vs. minor key and the concept of modulating from one key to another in connection with Playford dance tunes can be somewhat useful, but is stretching things a bit for several reasons. First of all, each strain of music is only 8 bars (in many cases 6 or 4 bars) long, so the idea of establishing a new key or tonal center in such a short span of musical time is tenuous. Indeed, the whole concept of tonal center and major or minor key and the structural formalisms supporting these ideas were in an embryonic state at this time (mid to late 17th C.-- Bach wasn't even born 'til 1685). Also, all we have to work with in most cases is the tune itself, without any bass line or other indication of harmony. In the relatively few cases where we have bass lines (I've seen some of Bray's), the implied harmonies are either pedestrian, amateurishly odd, or just plain wrong (careless typos). One of the joys of playing for English dancing (and listening to folks like Jacqueline Schwab, Peter Barnes, Laurie Andres, Bill Peek, etc., etc.) is the opportunity the performer has to CREATE harmony for the tune. A lot of what we "hear" in Playford tunes is actually the legacy of Cecil Sharp's piano arrangements. Seventeenth century dancers would barely recognize the tunes with the inventive harmonic treatments we give them these days. This whole discussion is anachronistic. (Let's face it, we're probably all anachronisms-- we should be out there doing the Macarena). Having said all that, there is SOME sense to speaking of a tune's traversal of one or more keys. Opening Peter Barnes' English Country Dance Tunes book at random (now removing hands from computer keyboard q#*&$#Efsd...), I see "Lull Me Beyond Thee" from 1651. The whole "A" music is in D minor, sort of (there's no 6th in the melody, it starts on the 5th degree of the scale, it's an early 17th century tune, so who knows...). The "B" music kinda wants to start in F major (the formal "relative major" of D minor), but after the first 5 bars it drifts back to D minor. So I'd agree with John Forbes' and Rich Galloway's observations that the music starts somewhere, goes off to another related place, and returns "home". Here below it is "Mad Robin" from 1686. Pretty clearly in B-flat major. Again, the "B" music starts elsewhere, this time in the relative minor-- G minor, and again drifts back "home" to B-flat major over the course of a few beats (less than 2 seconds). Are these major/minor tunes? Do they modulate? I don't know exactly what that might mean as applied to such snippets of musical material... It is true that as you move into the later years of the 17th C and into the 18th, the tunes are more clearly structured according to the more well-defined rules of major and minor keys (and consequently often less interesting than the quirky "transitional" earlier tunes). And, I think it's important for dance leaders to be aware of a tune's key, as the sequence of keys during an afternoon or evening of dance does have a subtle effect on the dancers and their perception of the quality of the dance. But that's a whole other subject... Gene Murrow ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:37:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 20:37:42 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Gene, Hi--and thanks for the careful explanation you gave everyone about modulation. You saved me a lot of time! Julia P.S. I enjoyed the comments on Amherst you sent on, and also the comments on the CDS newsgroup. Obviously everyone learned that "country dance" is a GREAT BIG SUBJECT. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 06:09:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 08:09:27 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Tempi used historically To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960909080927.1bd7-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For those who have not encountered McPherson's work, it is MacPherson, William Alan. The Music of the English Country Dance, 1651-1728: with Indexes of the Printed Sources. Harvard Ph.D. Thesis, October 1984. UMI #8503553. Here is a quote from p.1 "Each dance consists of several figures (e.g., movements back and forth, crossing between the lines, swinging one's partner [sic.], weaving between the other dancers, etc.) chosen from a stock repertoire. From pp 1/2 The end of the dance is signalled by the couples' return to their original positions. I submit these as statements dealing with ECD, but I do not necessarily endorse them. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 06:25:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 08:24:40 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960909082440.1bd7-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene Murrow makes some good points. As I use the terms, modulation means moving to another key, definitely, and staying there for a while, even unto the end of the work. The 'trio' sections of standard American marches have been doing this for years. All you former high school band members will remember the trio section. The Key signature always added a flat or took away a sharp. ("Stars and Stripes goes from Eb/3 flats to Ab/4 flats). If Memory serves me, Mozart's Overture to the "Marriage of Figaro" starts in one major key, moves up to the dominant/fifth note of the scale key and stays their for the remainder of the overture. Shifting from one tonal center to another implies a very short duration at this second level, and a fairly prompt departure. The clues/keys to where it is going is usually done through the placement of accidentals in the melodic line. This coupled with a cadence (V/I) to the new tonal center nails it down. There are many, many exceptions to this principle so don't take this as more than the "most often occuring scenaria." I have always found Playford melodies especially harmonic in nature. By applying early Baroque harmonic practices, maybe even some of the later ones too, one can find a fairly accurate harmonic foundation for the tunes. This spring I did a workshop on Playford Dance Tunes/Their harmonization, performance, and countermelody construction. I took one of the dances from the Barnes book and compared it's harmonization with three other presentations of the same tune/suggested harmonies. All four contained substantial differences. Courtesy forbids my mentioning the tune and the other sources on line. I will provide this information for snail-mail correspondents. John Forbes Baker University Library Box 65 Baldwin, KS 66006 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 06:40:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 09:40:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Tempi used historically To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > For those who have not encountered McPherson's work, it is Thanks for the reference! [snip] > Here is a quote ... > >From pp 1/2 > > The end of the dance is signalled by the couples' return to their original > positions. [end of quote from McPherson] > I submit these as statements dealing with ECD, but I do not necessarily > endorse them. > > Forbes/Baker University Insofar as I cannot tell from the context whether he was speaking about one time through the dance or when the music would stop & people would head for the seats, I can imagine that he might be speaking about running the dance until the head couple had returned to the top place in longways sets, which I understand was common practice in those times; in dances of definite set size, either they were non-progressive, so the dancers would be in their original places at the end of one time through, or they would be progressive, in which case dancing them a number of times equal to the number of couples in the set should return them to their original places. Do you think this might be what he meant? (An interesting exception, in current practice, is Nonesuch, which ends in an order different from its original one, but which is rarely repeated from the new positions, and in my experience, never danced through until all are returned to the original places. Also any dance which ends up in a different configuration from its beginning would not follow this general rule -- I can think of a few of those.) Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 08:27:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:27:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: [snip] > This spring I did a workshop on Playford Dance Tunes/Their harmonization, > performance, and countermelody construction. I took one of the dances This sounds like an interesting topic for discussion & dissemination of useful information. I have always been very impressed by the abilities of the better musicians (many of whom don't read music!) to create harmony on the fly, and while there obviously is a lot of experience and aesthetic judgement involved, the essential rules for doing this must have some sort of essential simplicity behind them. While I don't expect or aspire to rival those who are out there creating fine dance music from single melody lines, I would like to learn how to create at least acceptable bass and intermediate harmony/countermelody lines from single melody-line sources such as we find in the Playford publications & their successors. I am starting from the standpoint of an amateur musician who has played early music for many years on a variety of instruments, but not including keyboard instruments. I have a programmable electronic keyboard-thing or PSO ("piano-shaped object") which makes it possible for me to try out my experiments without inflicting them on others until they reach some sort of level of acceptability. I play from time to time with a group of assorted (*VERY* assorted...) instrumentalists, most of whom end up playing either the melody line or some sort of chord pattern. I know that even when the source suggests certain chords, some folks prefer to use their own (or can only use their own), and that two folks doing this at the same time don't always get along, & have to agree somehow to make it sound good. What I know about "music theory" includes knowledge of major & minor & some modal scales, chord structure, & a very little bit about using certain chords at cadences. I also know a fair amount about the physical aspects of tuning and temperament, but rather little about its direct influence on specific chords and keys. I know very little about using chords (choosing chords?) to create a harmony, or to try to create a particular effect that fits the music, and I know essentially nothing about how to create a simple countermelody, although I have a slight sense of what I would like to accomplish with such a line. Is there an obvious way to proceed from here short of enrolling in music school? Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 10:11:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 13:07:04 +0000 (GMT) From: cclark-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (A., C., & M. Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Ball dribbling/dancing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609091307.NAA23257-AT- vicon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Robert Reed says: >variations could be formed on whether the respective partners/neighors/corners >exchange their bounding spheriods in the maneuver or not. This could give new meaning to terms like "pass through." Just think how confusing it would get at an SCA Hole in the Wall Basket-Ball when half the dancers are stealing each other's partners and the other half are stealing balls! Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:01:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:00:53 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric, Any good school of music will have elementary harmony courses which would give you the basis to work with and build on. While you wouldn't have to enroll in a degree program, you would of course have to pay! The problem with Early Playford music is determining whether it is tonal or modal or somewhere in between--that takes more sophisticated knowledge to determine. Even more sophisticated would be the knowledge of what to do with your determination--modal harmony courses are hard to find. Carol Marsh has found a number of basses to Playford tunes from the time in which they appeared. Just what was done to "fill in" the parts is not so clear, but check out her writings and you'll find the basses she has brought to light. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:10:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 13:50:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Koeppen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I99TY8SILK00052N-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene Murrow wrote: >Here below it is "Mad Robin" from 1686. Pretty clearly in B-flat major. Again, >the "B" music starts elsewhere, this time in the relative minor-- G minor, and >again drifts back "home" to B-flat major over the course of a few beats (less >than 2 seconds). > >Are these major/minor tunes? Considering that in Mad Robin the first 4 bars of the B section land very solidly on a G and contain an E natural and F#, there isn't much doubt that this is G melodic minor. And it doesn't exactly "drift" back to Bb, the next 4 bars *are* in Bb. It looks like a major tune with a modulation to minor for 4 bars to me, I wouldn't call it major/minor unless the entire B section was minor. >Do they modulate? I don't know exactly what that >might mean as applied to such snippets of musical material... I'd say they do. I mean, if jazz musicians can say that John Coltrane's Giant Steps modulates on every beat (it's essentially a cycle of fifths and it's 2/2 with a key change twice a measure), I think that it's perfectly OK to say that a 4 bar key change is a modulation. Also, 4 and 8 bar key changes are quite common in contemporay popular music and are generally considered modulations. I kind of doubt that the composers of these simple tunes called them modulations, chances are that they just memorized what sounded good without thinking about the theory behind why it worked. But this doesn't mean they aren't modulations. > And, I think it's important for dance >leaders to be aware of a tune's key, as the sequence of keys during an afternoon >or evening of dance does have a subtle effect on the dancers and their >perception of the quality of the dance. But that's a whole other subject... I'd like to hear your comments on it though. It's always bothered me when tunes are put together in a set and are in different keys where the transition from one to another doesn't make sense musically. Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:17:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:17:23 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Traditional, Tradirrational, and other Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MacPherson has analyzed many more country dance tunes than I. Nevertheless, in dealing with major/minor changes one enters a sort of gray area. That is, change to major or minor tonality can be done "by form", i.e., by simply changing with the beginning of a new strain; or by chordal manipulation within a strain. But we don't always know when the latter occurs, since we lack fully-chorded settings. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 16:21:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 19:23:45 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Getting back to where you start.... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric Arnold wrote: >(An interesting exception, in current practice, is Nonesuch, which ends >in an order different from its original one, but which is rarely repeated >from the new positions, and in my experience, never danced through until >all are returned to the original places. I've never done it back to original place, but I do note a growing trend to do it a second time from the new position.... And having now done Step stately for 5 couples, I feel prepared for whatever comes my way! Come to think of it, I like Nonesuch so much that I don't think it would ever be a problem doing it 4 or 5 times through if that's what it takes.... Mary Beth <-- dances off humming Nonesuch to herself and the cats ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 16:34:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 16:34:23 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: Getting back to where you start.... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A81F5.38F914F2.34-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Incidentally, if you follow Colin Hume's reconstruction of Nonesuch, you do end up back where you started. (It takes longer, but it does make more sense.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 17:11:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 20:13:28 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Getting back to where you start.... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Incidentally, if you follow Colin Hume's reconstruction of Nonesuch, you >do end up back where you started. (It takes longer, but it does make more >sense.) > >-- Alan Yes! I do remember that..... we did Nonesuch and some other really illuminating dances Colin had reconstructed in Pinewoods a couple years ago..... Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:49:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:51:24 +0100 From: Michael_A_Barraclough-QSWI971-AT- notes.ecid.cig.mot.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Getting back to where you start.... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <"802563A1:003B3DB9.00"-AT- notes.ecid.cig.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan I am sure that Colin would be the first to acknowledge, but I believe that the interpretation Colin uses and has published is mine (as acknowledged in his book). I will try and find the time to put a copy of the interpretation, together with the reasoning behind it, onto the maillist. (It is likely to a while, however, as all my research materials are at home which I only get to every couple of weeks.) Michael Barraclough Document Classification: Personal ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:20:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:20:48 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: Getting back to where you start.... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A82A3.581A4C12.10-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Michael Barraclough wrote: > Alan > I am sure that Colin would be the first to acknowledge, but I believe > that the interpretation Colin uses and has published is mine (as > acknowledged in his book). I will try and find the time to put a copy of > the interpretation, together with the reasoning behind it, onto the > maillist. (It is likely to a while, however, as all my research > materials are at home which I only get to every couple of weeks.) > Michael Barraclough > Document Classification: Personal Oops! I'm very sorry to have misattributed the interpretation. I'm sure the error is mine, not Colin's. (Naturally, I posted off the cuff at work without checking "Playford With a Difference", which is at home.) At Mendocino, Colin made a very convincing case for that reconstruction, and I'm sold. (I'll admit, however, that quirky and inauthentic as it seems to be, I enjoy Sharp's version more. I'm not sure how much of that is just familiarity.) Once again, my apologies. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:42:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:35:12 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Tempi used historically To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960910083512.39a2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT IMHO many folks resist the curious symmetry and planning in "Rufty Tufty." Many find it a dance with little aesthetic return. I like the way the planning at the end of the chorus leads so easity into siding and arming and the final honor to your partner. In many others, "Sellenger's Round" for one, you must turn and face your partner after the chorus for arming, siding, and final honor. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:42:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:50:46 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960910085046.39a2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For bass line development, listen to J.S. Bach. I know he's a bit past the two Playfords' time, but his examples of bass line construction are incredible. Remember that the bass line is a melody too. Compared to the melody on top, it moves in longer notes and larger intervals. One key is to get away from just the notes of the named chords. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:00:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:05:42 -0500 From: sheilab-AT- tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John Forbes wrote: >For bass line development, listen to J.S. Bach. I know he's a bit past >the two Playfords' time, but his examples of bass line construction are >incredible. Remember that the bass line is a melody too. Compared to >the melody on top, it moves in longer notes and larger intervals. One >key is to get away from just the notes of the named chords. I might suggest for a more period feel that you look a little BEFORE Playford to some of Michael Praetorius' dances....it could show you how to make a very simple bass line (based on but not solely naming the chords). Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- tiac.net Editor, Boston Early Music News >>next BEMN Deadline 9/22 for 10/15 issue! 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice: 508/263.9926 fax: 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:03:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:03:04 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Best of all as a model, probably, is Henry Purcell. Not only did Playford use tunes by Purcell to which we have his own basses, but the two knew each other. Bach is more contrapuntal (and later); Praetorius is too early. Julia Sutton On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Sheila Beardslee Bosworth wrote: > John Forbes wrote: > > >For bass line development, listen to J.S. Bach. I know he's a bit past > >the two Playfords' time, but his examples of bass line construction are > >incredible. Remember that the bass line is a melody too. Compared to > >the melody on top, it moves in longer notes and larger intervals. One > >key is to get away from just the notes of the named chords. > > I might suggest for a more period feel that you look a little BEFORE > Playford to some of Michael Praetorius' dances....it could show you how > to make a very simple bass line (based on but not solely naming the > chords). > > Sheila Beardslee Bosworth > sheilab-AT- tiac.net > > Editor, Boston Early Music News > >>next BEMN Deadline 9/22 for 10/15 issue! > 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 > voice: 508/263.9926 > fax: 508/263.2366 > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:31:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD list Message-ID: <960912012839_71332.2116_GHL100-6-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well, this certainly has been interesting... and now we're down to semantics, so.. let's just dance! Charlie Koeppen wrote re: importance of sequence of keys for dance tunes "I'd like to hear your comments though..." Briefly (at risk of boring everyone even further), I think that a program planner should avoid: a) more than 2 tunes/dances in the same key sequentially b) more than 2 minor keys sequentially c) stepwise downward sequence of keys (C to B-flat to A) as this produces a subtle ennervating effect d) non-harmonic juxtapositions (B-flat major to E major, for example) ECD-list folks who'd like a copy of my 1-page "Almost Reliable Guide to Determining a Tune's Key" designed for dance leaders who are not musicians may send a SASE to Riverview Farm Road, Ossining, NY 10562. Or I can e-mail it as a Microsoft Word 6.0 document-- lemme know your pleasure. It comes from my textbook for the "English Dance Leadership Training in Music" session I did at Pinewoods in 1995, and folks have said it has helped them in their program planning. I agree with Julia Sutton's recommendation of Purcell as the natural source for contemporary harmonization. Interestingly, we did a concert at Pinewoods a couple of years ago where we performed Purcell's own arrangements of some dance tunes we all know and love ("Hole in the Wall" - Hornpipe: Abdelazar, Well's Humour, "Siege of Limerick - Hornpipe:Dioclesian, among others), and then performed the same tunes in modern arrangements by Marshall Barron. * Everyone* preferred Ms. Barron to Mr. Purcell his-self!!! Now, if you don't think Purcell was one of the most inventive "harmonizers" of all time, just listen to some of his 4-part Fantasias. But we're listening to and attempting to analyze 17th C. dance tunes with "modern" ears (while looking perhaps at Peter B's modern chord markings), so modern treatments do sound "better" (assuming they're done by someone of the caliber of Marshall, who is a BRILLIANT arranger of these tunes). Which brings us to this central paradox of the whole "historically informed performance" movement (racket?), with an e-mail forum (rec.music.early) and endless discussions all their own... Gene Murrow EC Dancer and Card-carrying Early Music-nik ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 02:23:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:39:04 +0100 From: Rhodri Davies Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609120839.JAA01096-AT- sfo.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <960912012839_71332.2116_GHL100-6-AT- CompuServe.COM> Gene, I'd be interested in receiveing that document you mentioned: The Almost relilable guide to determining a Tune's Key. I can cope with a word document if you could uuencode it or something similar suitable for email transmission. Thanks Rhod -- Dr. Rhodri M. Davies Tel: +44 (0)161 776 4498 Engineering Software Ltd Fax: +44 (0)161 776 2680 Carrington Business Park Email: rhodri.davies-AT- esoft.co.uk Manchester M31 4XL WWW: http://www.esoft.co.uk =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 06:55:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:54:51 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960912085451.3912-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:13:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:11:29 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960912091129.3912-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: Marshall Barron's arrangements: Playford arrangements (I've done some 35 for SATB recorder ensemble and keyboard with figured bass) present a variety of interesting problems. Which of the various principles do you emphasize: Decorating various inner and outer lines? Top and bottom reasonably strict/inner parts ad-libbed on the spot? The Ideal of Bass line (cello?), improvised keyboard part, decorated melody line Two top lines as in a tri sonata approach? And there are many more. In Barron vs. Purcell his-self, there would be/shoud be no contest. I do hesitantly suggest two observations of the current scene: In preparing and producing Playford Balls or their equivalent, much attention is given to costume, decor of the hall, the right food for the period, the right etiquette/deportment. We are slaves to the period. Good. When it comes to music, however, we want what we want when we want it. There is no attempt, usually, to bring the same care to the music. There are many reasons, most prominent being that the average dancer/listener has little background in assessing what's needed and evaluting it when attempts are made. We love the 19th/20th century sound because of its richness of style and familiarity. I think this is good. I dance to it often. I enjoy. But I would hope that the musicians could use their backgrounds to do at least some of the dances, earlier in the evening, in an earlier style. Second, Because we want what we want when we want it in the music, this is reflected in the recordings available. I have heard Playford done in a style more akin to Renaissance practices, a classical style, and the aforementioned 19th and 20th century styles. I can count on the fingers of a maimed hand the number of recordings of Playford dances, available to general public distribution, that follow the late 17th century style, Sutton's mention of Purcell is an excellent choice, that Playford (and his friend who comments on him now and again: Samuel Pepys) might have recog- nized in his own lifetime. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:14:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:14:16 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Major/Minor/Modulation in Playford tunes To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960912091416.3912-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene's parenthetical suggestion that early music folks have a 'racket' is so tempting. But I'll leave that to the professionals in the field who are on the list. Remember where you read it first! Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:44:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:49:36 -0500 From: sheilab-AT- tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: recorded Playford dances... (was M/m/mod...) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Second, Because we want what we want when we want it in the music, this is >reflected in the recordings available. I have heard Playford done in a >style more akin to Renaissance practices, a classical style, and the >aforementioned 19th and 20th century styles. I can count on the fingers >of a maimed hand the number of recordings of Playford dances, available to >general public distribution, that follow the late 17th century style, >Sutton's mention of Purcell is an excellent choice, that Playford (and his >friend who comments on him now and again: Samuel Pepys) might have recog- >nized in his own lifetime. The Boston-based Renaissance violin band, The King's Noyse, led by fiddler David Douglass, has some ECD tunes on its newest English ballads recording (Harmonia Mundi)....they sound great. As music. But it's clear from listening to the musicians that THEY DON'T DANCE. urgh! Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- tiac.net Editor, Boston Early Music News >>next BEMN Deadline 9/22 for 10/15 issue! 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice: 508/263.9926 fax: 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:04:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:00:44 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>Period slavery -------------------------------------- From: Forbes Re: Marshall Barron's arrangements: In preparing and producing Playford Balls or their equivalent, much attention is given to costume, decor of the hall, the right food for the period, the right etiquette/deportment. We are slaves to the period. Good. When it comes to music, however, we want what we want when we want it. There is no attempt, usually, to bring the same care to the music. *Food for the period*? I've been to many balls where the food has been outstanding, but I have yet to attend a single one where any effort was made to make it conform to "period." Or decor, for that matter, and while there are inevitably some number of people in period dress, most dancers simply wear dressy, modern clothes. As to etiquette and deportment, far from discouraging "booking ahead" as we do now, people were expected to contract for specific dances well in advance, women were not encouraged or even allowed to ask men for dances, and the "problem" of excess numbers of women was not solved as it is nowadays by women dancing the man's part with other women, which I suspect would have been looked at as rather a scandal. You may consider yourself a "slave to the period." I am not. Personally, I dance modern-day post-Sharp revival, Playford-style, English country dancing, whatever one wants to label it, for the simple reason that I, as a 20th century individual enjoy doing it. I enjoy it *as* a 20th century event with all the sensibilities and privileges of my time, not because I am under the impression that I am somehow momentarily living in another time, or that I am involved in reconstructing history. I admit I am interested in the history for purely intellectual reasons, and the fact that the dancing is in some sense a continuation of something that was done a hundred or more years ago gives it an added dimension to me. BUT it is a *continuation* not a reinactment, I am not dancing in order to be authentic, I don't feel any need to apologize for the fact that my sensibilities are different than those in Playford's own time, or alter the way things are done to better reflect some other historical period unless it can be demonstrated to me that such an alteration will improve my modern-day enjoyment. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:25:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:25:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Barbara Ruth wrote: > Reply to: RE>Period slavery > > > > -------------------------------------- > From: Forbes > Re: Marshall Barron's arrangements: > > In preparing and producing Playford Balls or their equivalent, much attention > is given to costume, decor of the hall, the right food for the period, the > right etiquette/deportment. We are slaves to the period. Good. When it > comes to music, however, we want what we want when we want it. There is > no attempt, usually, to bring the same care to the music. > *Food for the period*? I've been to many balls where the food has been > outstanding, but I have yet to attend a single one where any effort was made to > make it conform to "period." Or decor, for that matter, and while there are > inevitably some number of people in period dress, most dancers simply wear > dressy, modern clothes. When readying for my first Ball, I assumed that by "period dress", they meant _Playford's_ period. On arriving, I found that my lady and I were the only ones wearing anything from that far back. "The" period? Give me a break! Will Linden ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:24:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:24:25 -0800 (PST) From: meier-AT- SSRL.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <009A84A3.25594655.1-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >From: Barbara Ruth > Reply to: RE>Period slavery >*Food for the period*? I've been to many balls where the food has been >outstanding, but I have yet to attend a single one where any effort was made to >make it conform to "period." Or decor, for that matter, and while there are >inevitably some number of people in period dress, most dancers simply wear >dressy, modern clothes. As to etiquette and deportment, far from discouraging >"booking ahead" as we do now, people were expected to contract for specific >dances well in advance, women were not encouraged or even allowed to ask men >for dances, and the "problem" of excess numbers of women was not solved as it >is nowadays by women dancing the man's part with other women, which I suspect >would have been looked at as rather a scandal. This is an interesting discussion for me, as I'm involved not only in "modern-day post-Sharp revival, Playford-style" English country dancing, but also in ECD that leans more toward historical re-creation and re-enactment, specifically from the period of the English Regency. As part of the latter I have actually been to a number of balls where there's been attention paid to having period food and accurate costumes. We've gone back and forth on what portions of etiquette we wish to adhere to: We used to have dance cards (though they're rather more Victorian), and women ask men for dances without fear. It's our understanding that while women might not have danced with women at formal balls, they might well have stood up with each other at a small gathering or a country dance if necessary (rather as we do today (with more complaining and no waltzing)). But we can't avoid having 20th-century sensibilities, so we avoid any number of little customs, even though we *are* trying to momentarily live in another time. And we DO pay a great deal of attention to having good period music. As for modern-day Playford-style dancing, I agree with you that it's a different matter. This is part of what it means to have a continuing tradition: Customs evolve. It's "period" for that to happen too. Vanessa Schnatmeier =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER-AT- SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 04:12:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 06:18:34 -0500 From: sheilab-AT- tiac.net (Sheila Beardslee Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Playford basses/other parts... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On the subject of making your own arrangements of ECD Playford tunes: Gene Murrow wrote: >I agree with Julia Sutton's recommendation of Purcell as the natural source for >contemporary harmonization. OK, but this presumes some knowledge on the part of the keyboard/bass player... I still think Praetorius is a better place to _start_.....the next thing would be til fill in passing tones and mirror rhythms in melody lines... I assumed that in talking about "arrangements" you meant doing your own and not reading someone else's....and that not everyone will have a great understanding of good part-writing! The keyboard player with NO experience who is faced with suddenly FILLING out chords will almost always go root-root-root positions, not thinking (on the fly) that they could use inversions of chords to make a more melodic bass line. That's my experience based on several years of "faking" at the keyboard and having to coach students who know that a G chord is G-B-D, but aren't ready to think in mid piece of using a non-root chord tone as the actual bass note. Please note I'm talking ON THE FLY, not working out in advance.... with careful preparation ANYTHING can (and usually will!) happen. Gene continues: >couple of years ago where we performed Purcell's own arrangements of some dance >tunes we all know and love ("Hole in the Wall" - Hornpipe: Abdelazar, Well's >Humour, "Siege of Limerick - Hornpipe:Dioclesian, among others), and then >performed the same tunes in modern arrangements by Marshall Barron. * I would point out that while I like MANY of Marshall's arrangements, they are very often in unfriendly format to recorders (keys, range of parts, etc...). She is brilliant, but she writes for STRINGS and keyboard, and recorders and other historical winds don't necessarily like to play the way strings do (nor do they necessarily like to play in sharp keys to the extent that strings do!). Anything for recorders works for strings, not everything for strings works for recorders.... This was a point brought to some dance leaders' attention over a year ago by Judy Klotz, a Princeton NJ-based musician who plays for ECD. If your band doesn't include instruments like recorder, baroque flute or baroque oboe, then this will certainly not be an issue for you. But if it *does*, then as an arranger, you must keep these things in mind. >But we're listening to and attempting >to analyze 17th C. dance tunes with "modern" ears (while looking perhaps at >Peter B's modern chord markings), so modern treatments do sound "better" >... Which brings us to this central paradox of the whole >"historically informed performance" movement (racket?), with an e-mail forum >(rec.music.early) and endless discussions all their own... In one of his Erasmus Professor visiting lectures at Harvard, Frans Bruggen, the bad-boy of the recorder world, pointed out that to treat *any* period of music as "modern" you must (as a player) be intimately knowledgable about the style immediately preceding it....so that you hear the harmonies, inflections and style of the one growing out of the other. This makes sense to me... Purcell was born in 1659 and died in 1695. Playford I was out in 1651.... Perhaps someone might sent a TIME LIST of tunes frequently used and their publication date paralleled by composers who wrote dance music incorporating those tunes... If you wish a set of arrangements which reflect a period awareness and style, I highly recommend Bernard Thomas' edition (vol. 1, so this implies more are coming) in the outstanding London Pro Musica series. They are in 4-parts, done in the style of late renaissance consorts and easily managed by musicians of all levels. For those who are inspired to write their own *in period style* or those who need a place to start (thinking ahead to ornamentation/divisions or even creating their own counter melodies on the fly, these are an excellent place to start. I know they are available in the Boston area through the Early Music Shop of NE (aka The von Huene Workshop), conveniently on-line: vonhuene-AT- world.std.com Cheers! Sheila B Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- tiac.net Editor, Boston Early Music News >>next BEMN Deadline 9/22 for 10/15 issue! 29 Main Street, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice: 508/263.9926 fax: 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 04:17:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:16:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: RE: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT re: period slavery: oh, ho. dump the piano, the clarinet, the modern strings. oh, and the sound system, too. and gee, i was planning to wear my new fake renaissance outfit to MY ball. should i reconsider? oops, do i sound facetious, there? like it or not, ECD is actually a folk form; it's been evolving forever, and changing things to suit modern sensibilities and taste is the only logical way to preserve it. no, we don't necessarily need basketballs, but you can't let any folk process freeze, or it'll die out long before we do. using modern instruments, encouraging musicians to be creative (keeps them from getting bored, too), and adapting and modifying the dance are healthy, in my opinion. i don't always like the results (i prefer the awkward but lovely nonesuch that is the result of how much fit on the old sound recording to more accurate reconstructions i've done lately), but viva the attempt. to say nothing of creating new tunes and dances in the older styles. what an exciting thing to be part ofÿ sorry i don't have enough time to think this out carefully, and i hope someone else can pick up this thread, because it's one of my favorites. but i really felt moved to jump into this one. BTW, barbara, that was a lovely posting. thanks. sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not an ossified folkie for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:48:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:47:52 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I thought the notion that ECD is a folk dance had been finally dropped. All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. Sorry. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:06:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:07:53 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>PERIOD SLAVERY -------------------------------------- Date: 9/13/96 12:00 PM I thought the notion that ECD is a folk dance had been finally dropped. All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. Sorry. Julia Sutton -------------------------------------- Dropped by whom? The point was made that "folk" as a category had less to do with origins of something than in how it has been transmitted and changed over the years. I don't know that much about what's being done in England, but in the U.S. at this point in time ECD is most definitely not done in court. (Although it would undoubtedly improve proceedings there if it were.) Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:12:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:12:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609131612.LAA09982-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT julia s sutton writes: >I thought the notion that ECD is a folk dance had been finally dropped. >All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. Sorry. I may be that the Playford dances were done primarily by the court and upper gentry, as you say. However I think it could be argued that any dance form that evolves and is done primarily for recreation (as opposed say to ballet, which is primarily for performance) could be viewed as a "folk" dance, in that the folk-process is in effect. Be that as it may, I think that ECD, as it is done today, is certainly a folk dance. I think this is what was being referred to in the original message. Jonathan Central Illinois English Country Dancers ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:52:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:52:32 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT you've got the wrong court! The point, really, is that Cecil Sharp invented a "folk" style in keeping with the fantasies of his time about what folk was. The reality, with regard to Playford, was quite different. Julia Sutton On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Barbara Ruth wrote: > Reply to: RE>>PERIOD SLAVERY > > > > -------------------------------------- > Date: 9/13/96 12:00 PM > I thought the notion that ECD is a folk dance had been finally dropped. > All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. Sorry. > > Julia Sutton > > -------------------------------------- > Dropped by whom? The point was made that "folk" as a category had less to do > with origins of something than in how it has been transmitted and changed over > the years. I don't know that much about what's being done in England, but in > the U.S. at this point in time ECD is most definitely not done in court. > (Although it would undoubtedly improve proceedings there if it were.) > > Barbara Ruth > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:26:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 18:25:24 -0500 (EDT) From: jshelby-AT- ais.autometric.com (Joe Shelby) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609132225.SAA08809-AT- ais> Content-Type: text Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > > I thought the notion that ECD is a folk dance had been finally dropped. > > > All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. Sorry. > > Dropped by whom? The point was made that "folk" as a category had less to do > > with origins of something than in how it has been transmitted and changed over > > the years. I don't know that much about what's being done in England, but in > > the U.S. at this point in time ECD is most definitely not done in court. > > (Although it would undoubtedly improve proceedings there if it were.) > > Barbara Ruth > you've got the wrong court! The point, really, is that Cecil Sharp > invented a "folk" style in keeping with the fantasies of his time about > what folk was. The reality, with regard to Playford, was quite different. > Julia Sutton the debate is _far_ from over, and the issue _far_ from dropped. Hugh Foss, in "Notes on Evolution in Scottish Country Dance" talks about the "rediscovery" of ECD, particularly mentioning the parallels between the "set" dances (as opposed to the duple minors) and the Morris dance forms (the "U.S.A." pattern matching the up&back/half-gyp/whole-gyp or up&back/half-gyp/back2back in _most_ (like > 95%) of the Cotswold traditions). The implication is that the "set" dances with this pattern most likely had a connection to the "folk", either by the "folk" developing them as a "social" form of morris, or from the "court" (both england and scotland) socializing the morris performed in the court (morris was performed before both Elizabeth I and James IV; James VI&I enjoyed ECD, but hated Morris as much as he hated the Gael of the highlands). the EFSDS (through Sharpes research) also supports the morris connection to the "U.S.A." pattern dances. (for those who don't remember, by "U.S.A." i refer to "Up a double and back", "Siding", "Arming"; the pattern in most of playford '51. Varients are abound, in particular "Gathering Peascods", "Selingers Round", and "Jenny Pluck Pears", which circle w/ slip step instead of up-and-back; or "Nonesuch", where the pattern is there, but doesn't correspond to a verse & chorus form. "U.S.A." has nothing to do with the united states, but becomes just an easy mnemonic; its use is quite common within the SCA groups i know of on the east coast) the aspect of ECD that is most likely "upper classes" is the duple minor form, since most researchers seem to trace the decendence of the "progression" to round-the-room dances and "contredances" from the continent (particularly italy). From the duple-minor, the triple-minor is a very easy developement, but does seem to be unique to english (the contra/contre dances of france and italy (what few they know) don't have them). joe xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5520 Cherokee Ave, Suite 210, Alexandria, VA 22312 (703) 658-6127 http://www.io.com/~acroyear Big Time Television: All Day, Every Day, Making Tomorrow Seem Like Yesterday! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:44:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:43:52 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8512.D41BF902.34-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Joe Shelby wrote: >the debate is _far_ from over, and the issue _far_ from dropped. >Hugh Foss, in "Notes on Evolution in Scottish Country Dance" talks about the >"rediscovery" of ECD, particularly mentioning the parallels between the >"set" dances (as opposed to the duple minors) and the Morris dance forms >(the "U.S.A." pattern matching the up&back/half-gyp/whole-gyp or >up&back/half-gyp/back2back in _most_ (like > 95%) of the Cotswold >traditions). The implication is that the "set" dances with this pattern >most likely had a connection to the "folk", either by the "folk" developing >them as a "social" form of morris, or from the "court" (both england and >scotland) socializing the morris performed in the court (morris was >performed before both Elizabeth I and James IV; James VI&I enjoyed ECD, but >hated Morris as much as he hated the Gael of the highlands). >the EFSDS (through Sharpes research) also supports the morris connection to >the "U.S.A." pattern dances. Except that Mr. Foss, and for that matter Mr. Sharp (although I don't know where he is supposed to say this, or where the EFDSS is supposed to "support" this ) could very well have it backward. There is as far as I know no evidence suggesting that late-Victorian morris, as collected by Sharp and his followers, has any particular connection to whatever Elizabethans were calling morris. Morris seems to have largely died out under Cromwell, and when restarted later it may well have been very heavily influenced by social dance. (Molly dancing, for example, is in one analysis explicity a cross-dressing parody of country dance.) [On a side note, if you'll forgive the expression, while half-gyp would appear to come from siding, the fact that whole-gyp exists in many traditions and looks a lot like an ECD gypsy leads me to think that the name comes from the 'gypsy' move -- which messes up the USA connection a little bit. Also, most Cotswold traditions have 'rounds', which doesn't show up so well in UGAR set dances.] >the aspect of ECD that is most likely "upper classes" is the duple minor >form, since most researchers seem to trace the decendence of the >"progression" to round-the-room dances and "contredances" from the continent >(particularly italy). From the duple-minor, the triple-minor is a very easy >developement, but does seem to be unique to english (the contra/contre >dances of france and italy (what few they know) don't have them). Curious, when the documented renaissance court dances are generally non-progressing small set dances. (I'm sure Julia, John, or one of the many people here who know more about it than I do will correct me if I have this wrong.) -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:58:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:58:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Roby Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9609132258.AA02336-AT- conley.math.wisc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia, I'm pretty sure that Barbara Ruth was intentionally punning on "court" in her last missive. (But she can correct me if I'm wrong.) Your point about Cecil Sharp inventing a "folk" style is well-taken, but I'm not sure you've understood the position that some here seem to be taking. Namely, that "English Country Dancing" has evolved via a true folk process to become a folk style, albiet one whose roots were misunderstood somewhere along the way. There are plenty of examples of dances that are/were considered "folk" influencing dances that are not considered "folk" and vice-versa. For example, in the Val Resia on the Slovenian-Italian boarder there is a group of ethnic slovenes who do wonderful partner dances in contra lines that have been taught as folkdances in the US, but would seem to be based ultimately on hand-me-downs from the upper class. NE contradancing has drastically changed from its origins, adding modern choreography, figures, and music, very much in parallel with current ECD practice. I'd be willing to hear arguments that contradancing is not a "folk" dance, depending upon your definition, but I'd find it hard to put say that contradancing is a folkdance while ECD is not. BTW, it's really nice to have someone with your historical knowledge around. I'd be curious if you know anything about more about the Rezijank dances (which are Italian, after all, but probably after the time periods you've studies?) Tom ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:58:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:58:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Roby Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9609132258.AA02336-AT- conley.math.wisc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Julia, I'm pretty sure that Barbara Ruth was intentionally punning on "court" in her last missive. (But she can correct me if I'm wrong.) Your point about Cecil Sharp inventing a "folk" style is well-taken, but I'm not sure you've understood the position that some here seem to be taking. Namely, that "English Country Dancing" has evolved via a true folk process to become a folk style, albiet one whose roots were misunderstood somewhere along the way. There are plenty of examples of dances that are/were considered "folk" influencing dances that are not considered "folk" and vice-versa. For example, in the Val Resia on the Slovenian-Italian boarder there is a group of ethnic slovenes who do wonderful partner dances in contra lines that have been taught as folkdances in the US, but would seem to be based ultimately on hand-me-downs from the upper class. NE contradancing has drastically changed from its origins, adding modern choreography, figures, and music, very much in parallel with current ECD practice. I'd be willing to hear arguments that contradancing is not a "folk" dance, depending upon your definition, but I'd find it hard to put say that contradancing is a folkdance while ECD is not. BTW, it's really nice to have someone with your historical knowledge around. I'd be curious if you know anything about more about the Rezijank dances (which are Italian, after all, but probably after the time periods you've studies?) Tom ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:37:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:36:58 -0500 (EDT) From: jshelby-AT- ais.autometric.com (Joe Shelby) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609132336.TAA08959-AT- ais> Content-Type: text Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > >the EFSDS (through Sharpes research) also supports the morris connection to > >the "U.S.A." pattern dances. > Except that Mr. Foss, and for that matter Mr. Sharp (although I don't know > where he is supposed to say this, or where the EFDSS is supposed to "support" > this ) could very well have it backward. i can site Foss's references later this weekend...my copy of his "mini-book" (its only about 36 pages or so, the size of an RSCDS publication) is at home. its definetely to an EFDSS publication, late 1940's. > There is as far as I know no evidence suggesting that late-Victorian morris, as > collected by Sharp and his followers, has any particular connection to whatever > Elizabethans were calling morris. Morris seems to have largely died out under > Cromwell, and when restarted later it may well have been very heavily > influenced by social dance. (Molly dancing, for example, is in one analysis > explicity a cross-dressing parody of country dance.) i accept that "Sharpe"'s morris is not _necessarilly_ 15th+ century morris. _Undocumented_ living traditions do have a habit of changing to a certain extent; they also have a habit of not changing at all, particularly in isolation (see cape breton island, for example). the odd differences between rapper and longsword (considered related traditions to morris) and cotswold (and for that matter, welsh-border morris, although like N.W. clog, it is known to be a broken tradition) do show that the traditions may have been more varied than that now practiced, but the ritual aspect of the dance implies that it would not have been something easy to change; expandable, possibly, but not to any dramatic extent. either theory (19th and 15th, same or different) is equally valid, but neither is even remotely provable; there just isn't any documentation describing morris, only that it existed. the "died out under cromwell" is not something i'd ever heard before in the history of morris. my understanding of the revolution is that most of the puritan "prohibitions" seemed isolated to the cities. also, the revolution couldn't have done that much damage to dancing, as playford '51 was published in the middle of it all :) rituals do not die easily (do you carve out a turnip or a pumpkin on October 31?, do you bring a tree into your house sometime near the winter solstice? how about painted hard-boiled eggs on easter sunday? even the _name_ "Easter" is a reference to absolutely _nothing_ christian, but to a teutonic goddess) the reasons (or "justifications") for a ritual may change, but the rituals do not die so easily. Shakespeare in Henry V implies not only that morris dance existed (both in 1598 & potentially 1415, although his tennis-balls reference is a blunt anachronism to 1415, and probably not the only one), but that it was related directly to whitsontide (where it still is in sharpe's time and today), and that it was well known enough even then for the French court to know of its existence. such a well established ritual would not be so easily dismissed just because of 10 or so years of distant rule (and london is _very_ distant to Oxfordshire by 1651 standards; even the next county over was considered "foreign lands" to the average person) by "non-dancing religious fanatics" (my phrase). it takes a lot more than that to kill a tradition (like, maybe a world war killing off most of your village's male population, say around 1916...) > [On a side note, if you'll forgive the expression, while half-gyp would appear > to come from siding, the fact that whole-gyp exists in many traditions and > looks a lot like an ECD gypsy leads me to think that the name comes from the > 'gypsy' move -- which messes up the USA connection a little bit. Also, most > Cotswold traditions have 'rounds', which doesn't show up so well in UGAR set > dances.] its also possible that "gypsy" as a name for the figure ("turn by the eyeball" is how i like to think about it) was a later addition, once parallels between dance traditions were discovered. Many of the scottish steps now have french names used in SCD (pas-de-basq, etc.), but these are not the names the highlanders used for those same steps. I believe this happened in ECD as well, as playford '51 makes no references to "gypsy" as a figure at all. if you figure that morris came first (just a theory), with its hankies and sticks (or swords); the socialization of "morris" into "U.S.A. style ECD" comes first by dropping the hankies and sticks. now that the hands are free, "arming" becomes possible as a replacement for "whole-gyp". > >the aspect of ECD that is most likely "upper classes" is the duple minor > >form, since most researchers seem to trace the decendence of the > >"progression" to round-the-room dances and "contredances" from the continent > >(particularly italy). From the duple-minor, the triple-minor is a very easy > >developement, but does seem to be unique to english (the contra/contre > >dances of france and italy (what few they know) don't have them). > > Curious, when the documented renaissance court dances are generally > non-progressing small set dances. (I'm sure Julia, John, or one of the many > people here who know more about it than I do will correct me if I have this > wrong.) again, i'll site Foss's reference on the continental origin of the "progression". if not to a primary source, then its to a EFDSS publication. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5520 Cherokee Ave, Suite 210, Alexandria, VA 22312 (703) 658-6127 http://www.io.com/~acroyear Big Time Television: All Day, Every Day, Making Tomorrow Seem Like Yesterday! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:20:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:22:42 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609140426.AAA23429-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > [On a side note, if you'll forgive the expression, while half-gyp > would appear to come from siding, the fact that whole-gyp exists in > many traditions and looks a lot like an ECD gypsy leads me to think > that the name comes from the 'gypsy' move -- which messes up the USA > connection a little bit. It's more likely the other way around. The ECD gypsy may be based on the Morris gyp. Cecil Sharp created the gypsy after having seen the Morris whole-gyp. Indeed to the best of my knowledge and research, Sharp never used the word "gypsy;" it was introduced by his followers. E.g. see _Maggot Pie_. Neither term (gypsy nor gip) is ever used in historical dance books and you would be hard pressed to find a figure resembling a gypsy. The move we now call a gypsy was a creation of Cecil Sharp. Sharp uses "gip" or "whole-gip" to interpret figures described in historical text as "go about your partner not turning your faces" or something similar. With the resources we now have available, most researchers would now interpret this as simply a back to back. The word "gyp" or "gip" deserves further research. The following is conjecture only. But, from what I have been able to find so far, it appears the word "gip" may have come into the English language in the early 19th century from the Dutch word "gyben", which referred to moving a sail from side to side. In English "gip" referred to the side to side movement of a horse that was bulking under halter. ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:05:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 01:07:50 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609140511.BAA23517-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. It does? I'm sure you are referring to the early period of ECD, but did you intend this statement as narrow as it sounds? I'd agree that ECD was done at court and by the gentry. Lower classes sought to emulate higher classes, so in that sense ECD might be considered an entity of the court or upper gentry. I can't speak for the 17th century, but by the early 18th century, we certainly have adequate evidence to show that ECD was widely danced by the merchant classes, among others. Guild halls were major dance venues. Plus we have references to classes as low as servants participating in dances. Ryder's reference to "rakes and whores" dancing at Bath, although surely not meant literally, gives some idea that ECD was fairly widely spread among at least the better off layers of urban society. I would be surprised to find that the lower classes did ECD, but then the illiterate don't keep diaries. Further, is the term "folk" reserved for peasants or the lower classes? Surely the upper gentry had their own folk customs. P.s., Even though I have a keen interest in the history of ECD, I much prefer dancing in the 20th century--and hopefully the 21st soon. :-) Rich Galloway An unreconstructed country dancer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 07:45:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Rich, Of course I was discussing the early history of ECD. Nevertheless, may I suggest that looking into the arguments on the definition of "folk" could be useful? The wonderful thing about ECD is that it's fun no matter how we do it. Having danced it 20th-c. style for close to 60 years I do know that! It's the general concept of its early history that needs to be straightened out, and Sharp's inventions recognized for what they were. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 08:02:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:02:11 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Joe, If you will read Foss carefully I'm sure you'l see just how much conjecture he's using. This is what I'm opposed to--the point is, to find hard evidence. Barring that, to recognize guesswork for what it is, and to avoid building huge constructions upon it. I am no authority on morris, whose history is tangled indeed. As for USA, those figures are common in 16th-c. Italian couple and longways dances! We of course don't know which came first, or what the specific connections between Italy and England were (my best authority, John Ward, assures me that there is no record of any Italian dancing masters in England in the 16thc.). The Italian manuals we have were written for the uppermost aristocracy. Progression (now termed duple minor and triple minor) is first described in words and diagrams by Lorin, I believe, in 1685, though of course it's in Playford. I'm editing a facsimile reprint edition with studies, translation, transcription, etc. Contributors are Marsh, Needham, Helwig, Worrell, Keller, and me. Pendragon Press will publish it. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:55:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:53:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Shedding light To: ECD list Message-ID: <960914185308_71332.2116_GHL24-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The discussions on this list have been so informative and fun, I think we deserve our own "light bulb" joke: Q. How many folk dance historians does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. While we argue about whether it turns Right or Left, the "folks" in the room have replaced it with a flourescent fixture. :-) Gene Murrow EC Dancer, Card-carrying Early Music-nik, and "stand-up" wannabe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:50:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:52:42 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shedding light To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT THANKS Gene! I'm ROFLOL! Mary Beth >The discussions on this list have been so informative and fun, I think we >deserve our own "light bulb" joke: > >Q. How many folk dance historians does it take to change a light bulb? > >A. None. While we argue about whether it turns Right or Left, the "folks" in >the room have replaced it with a flourescent fixture. > >:-) > >Gene Murrow >EC Dancer, Card-carrying Early Music-nik, and "stand-up" wannabe ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:33:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:48:53 -0500 From: Mary E Jones Subject: Re: Shedding light To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <323B6085.69CE-AT- javanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Mary Beth Goodman wrote: > > THANKS Gene! I'm ROFLOL! > Guys - When I started dancing years ago, I hadn't a clue what FTWK was on the Pinewoods dance program - and it took me awhile to figure out IMHO and a few others but ROFLOL...? Sheesh!!!! Mary (Dinosaur) Jones RO - right on...? This is going to drive me nuts! And I still have to come up with a dance program for my half of this Monday night's dance... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:41:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:43:28 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shedding light (this time, net shortcuts) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Mary E Jones Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Guys - > >When I started dancing years ago, I hadn't a clue what FTWK was on the >Pinewoods dance program - and it took me awhile to figure out IMHO and a >few others but ROFLOL...? Sheesh!!!! Sorry Mary et al ROFLOL = Rolling on Floor, Laughing out loud... Mary Beth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:30:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:32:17 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: (Fwd) [Fwd: Halloween: E.C. Dances?] To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609150436.AAA01625-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Roger Broseus posted the following to the Newsgroup rec.folk-dancing. Since he is not on the ECD list (yet?), I'm sure he would appreciate any Halloween dance ideas you could send to him at RogerB-AT- cais.com. Might be an fun topic for this list, too. I'd add some ideas myself, but it's well past the pumpkin hour. (BTW, Roger is the primary organizer for the FSGW English country dance in Glen Echo, MD, a fine dancer and wonderfully friendly and welcoming person.) Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: rogerb-AT- cais.cais.com (Roger W. Broseus) Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing Subject: Halloween: E.C. Dances? Date: 12 Sep 1996 15:27:35 GMT Organization: Dis(-organized) Message-ID: <519a57$f15-AT- news2.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cais.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Looking for titles of English country dances that would be good for an evening of E.C. dancing w/ a Halloween theme. If you add a reason why it's related, that would be especially appreciated (knowing this group, I'll bet that was a rhetorical statement). Thanks. -- Roger ______________________________________________________________________ Roger W. Broseus RogerB-AT- cais.com Contra dancing fanatic; English country dance aficionado. Superfluous disclaimer: my opinions belong to me. (Kindly direct non-constructive comments to /dev/null.) ______________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:43:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 09:39:18 +0000 (GMT) From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (A., C., & M. Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: (Fwd) [Fwd: Halloween: E.C. Dances?] To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609150939.JAA04186-AT- vicon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Looking for titles of English country dances that would be good for an >evening of E.C. dancing w/ a Halloween theme. From the first edition of Playford (some of them had to have something added to make them have anything to do with Halloween). An Old Man is a Bed Full of Bones Gray's Inn Mask Jack a Lent (ern) Bobbing (for apples) Joe The Bonny Bonny (witch's) Broom Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 09:10:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:08:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Halloween EC Dances To: ECD list Message-ID: <960915160835_71332.2116_GHL91-3-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For many years, Fried Herman MC'd the annual Halloween Dance at Country Dancers of Westchester. She always made up a special program for the occasion, including such items as Wince Prilliam (Prince William), Dread House (Red House), Skull's Victory (Hull's Victory), Lethal Waltz (Leah's Waltz), The Shrew Buries Lasses (you guess), Ghoul's Best Friend (Girl's Best Friend), etc. We had a grand march to judge the best costumes, and a good time was had by all. This year, our "Halloween" dance falls on November 1st (with Sue Dupre as MC), so really it should be an All Saints Dance. Lots of "saint" ECD's. All you saints are welcome! Gene Murrow Shameless ECD flak ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 06:25:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:24:40 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960916082440.3fd2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sharp entitled his work "The Country Dance Book" even though parts one and five deal with acknowledged folk dances. Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 06:30:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:29:45 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: period slavery To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960916082945.3fd2-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At one time Tony Barrand suggested that Morris and Mumming waxed when authorities permitted them and waned when they were prohibited. I do not know if he still holds to this idea. Forbes/Baker U ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:09:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:55:12 +0000 From: Bob Archer Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <648.bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > -------------------------------------- > Dropped by whom? The point was made that "folk" as a category had less to do > with origins of something than in how it has been transmitted and changed over > the years. I don't know that much about what's being done in England, but in > the U.S. at this point in time ECD is most definitely not done in court. > (Although it would undoubtedly improve proceedings there if it were.) > > Barbara Ruth The only evidence I have of the royal family dancing at all is from a television programme a couple of years ago which showed them at a Scottish ball. ( Now there's another argument to get into - is Scottish dancing 'folk' ? ) Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:29:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:29:24 -0700 From: dgilli-AT- slip.net (Dan Gillespie) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Jack's Health To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello from West Virginia: This weekend I went to the Ec dance in Silver Spring MD for the first time & had a nice time. One dance that was new to me was Jack's Health. Where & when does this one come from...it's a blast. The band played an alternate tune, "Bolt the Door" which fit the dance very nicely. Any details about this one would be much appreciated (especially a cheat sheet of the steps) With thanks, Dan Gillespie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:29:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I9JG8QLNO2000F3N-AT- UG.EDS.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bob Archer asked >> is Scottish dancing 'folk' ? ) I believe the RSCDS assert that since the Queen does it then it is not folk; however Princess Margaret is President of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, and she has danced at Cecil Sharp house on occasion. (On the last occasion I think it would be fair to say she danced better than her partner, the then Chairman -- who, unusually, was a musician rather than a dancer.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:11:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:11:38 -0700 From: dodson-AT- violet.berkeley.edu (allen and alisa dodson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Halloween ECD Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well, now that we are talking about *dance names*, I'd better quit lurking and get involved! We had one Halloween ECD in the SF Bay Area where there were clever dance names, such as Gene reported of Fried's Halloween dances. We did: Zombies and Flora Grimstock Collier's Devil Old Witch with a Mole Morbid Rant Mr. Beelzebub's Maggot Wizard's Walk Darkcastle Bat's Carnival Kelsterne Goblins Come Let's Be Scary Jack O'lantern's Maggot This year we have a Halloween (10/30) contra/English dance -- should be way fun! Alisa Dodson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:32:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: Jack's Health To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A874B.29DBF772.10-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dan -- Jack's Health is published in A Choice Collection of Country Dances As Printed and Sold by John and William Neal in Christ Church Yard, Dublin, c. 1726 (Rich Jackson and George Fogg, CDS Boston Centre, 1990) Should be available by mail from CDSS. and was also in Country Dance & Song volume 5. But if memory serves, there's some slight difference between the way it's printed in the Neal volume and the way it's done out here. How I'm used to doing it: longways duple minor 1s cross ["pull by", I think, but Fried Herman explicitly objects to that terminology], cast below the 2s, and turn 2 hands once round, open facing up, improper. On the line, 1s back to back with 2s (of other gender). Taking inside hands, 1s and 2s fall back to the walls, set right and left [unclear whether you face partner or opposite here], come forward, cloverleaf turn single, 4 changes of circular hey, partners turn two hand until proper. [1s get a nice transition from the turn into the next "pull by".] "Bolt the Door" is almost always used here, and is the only tune given in Barnes. I've danced it to the original tune twice, once to Brad Foster and once to Fried Herman, and the character it gives the dance is completely different. (And considerably less robust; in comparison, almost wimpy.) But that's modern taste for you. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:43:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:40:08 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>PERIOD SLAVERY you've got the wrong court! The point, really, is that Cecil Sharp invented a "folk" style in keeping with the fantasies of his time about what folk was. The reality, with regard to Playford, was quite different. Julia Sutton How silly of me. You are, however, now trying to argue out of both sides of your hat. You claim that Sharp's reconstructions are quite different from the reality of Playford, but when those of us doing *modern* ECD, which owes as much to Sharp's imaginative interpretations as to Playford (certainly part of the folk process), refer to it as folk dance you argue that it is a court dance. It can't be both ways. In any case, it should be quite clear from the ongoing discussion that the question has been far from dropped. Barbara Ruth > > > -------------------------------------- > Date: 9/13/96 12:00 PM > I thought the notion that ECD is a folk dance had been finally dropped. > All evidence points to the court and upper gentry. Sorry. > > Julia Sutton > > -------------------------------------- > Dropped by whom? The point was made that "folk" as a category had less to do > with origins of something than in how it has been transmitted and changed over > the years. I don't know that much about what's being done in England, but in > the U.S. at this point in time ECD is most definitely not done in court. > (Although it would undoubtedly improve proceedings there if it were.) > > Barbara Ruth > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:08:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:08:07 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960916140807.42d9-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Barbara Ruth: It would be useful to your reputation and the quality of this discussion list if you would tone down the tension energy of your replies. Try and find a calmer, gentler way to make your points. You are currently revealing too much about yourself. Also, it would be useful to your position to assure us you have read The Imagined Village" and are aware of that work's unique, yet important view on Cecil Sharp. Flame if you wish, I've enjoyed my share on various discussion lists, but check out your viewpoints too. Decide what really does (and does not) matter. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:12:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:11:59 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8759.1B6C4152.3-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- By Usenet standards, at least, Barbara is being the soul of moderation. (But perhaps I've been spoiled by reading alt.fandom.cons, where one contributor commonly spreads threats of lawsuits and jail time, even though I'm staying away from alt.flames and alt.peeves.) Anyway, I think we're arguing about more than one thing at a time, and that this is producing the frustrating talking-past-each-other result. (Feel free to disagree with me -- not that anyone possibly could, of course.) 1) I believe Barbara was joking about "court" dances improving the tone of our present legal system. However, don't forget that Playford's shop was near the Inns of Court, where country dancing was frequently done -- see Patri Pugliese and Joseph whose-last-name-I-can't-remember-offhand -- and law students were in fact among his clientele. I still don't think this means we need to wear long white wigs and black robes at Playford Balls. 2) Setting aside for the moment the question of what a folk dance *is*, recognize that whether ECD was folk dance in 1651 is a different question from whether ECD is a folk dance now, which is yet a different question from whether people at the turn of the last century wanted to pretend that it was one. Without exactly defining folk dance, here's what I think we know. a) Playford and Playford-style dances were 'court' dances, or at least not village dances. Dancing masters taught them, were sometimes credited with creating them, and they were done with considerable styling and special steps. b) At the turn of the century and after, villagers were doing country dances, and many of them were doing stepping or 'clogging', either as solo performance or embellishment of country dances. While these might be considered folk dances, it's interesting to note that not-dissimilar dances had been published earlier, and in at least one case ('Black Jack') an identical dance had been published 200 years before being collected. c) Sharp was looking for a national folk dance of England and siezed on country dancing. He collected some, found Playford, and started to interpret Playford with the robust, simple style seen in village dances -- cheerfully choosing new tunes or new figures to make the dances fit his aesthetics. His concern was not authenticity, and his style is far from authentic or historically correct. [And I love it, and think it's far more sustainable under modern conditions than an authentic style would be -- but we shouldn't claim authenticity.] d) Since then, especially since ECD took off in the US, it's been diffusing in a bunch of different directions. There is no central Academy as there is for the French language or for the (apparently largely-made-up) Scottish country dance, and various people and groups have adopted/adapted Sharp-style ECD for their own purposes. Dances are transmitted by imperfect memory or through forums like this, people experiment with new tunes, dances and tunes are newly composed, there are noticeable local variances in style, and there are divergent strains like Renaissance Faire dance (hyper-Sharp, participants think they're being traditional villagers), SCA dance (which might include doing Pat Shaw to music by Tangerine Dream), and CDSS-style, which I hear is significantly different from current English Playford style. To me, it looks like a folk movement *now*. Please, correct me if I have any of this wrong. Thanks, -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:33:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:32:49 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A875C.044EDE32.42-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Forgot to mention a couple of things: 1) John's post to Barbara might better have gone in private email than to the whole list. (And so might this, except that I want to make that clear to the whole list. Corrections of fact should go to the list, corrections of manners are more personal. I post this one to the whole list because I want to make it clear to everybody.) 2) in my point b) > b) At the turn of the century and after, villagers were doing > country dances, and many of them were doing stepping or > 'clogging', either as solo performance or embellishment of > country dances. While these might be considered folk dances, > it's interesting to note that not-dissimilar dances had been > published earlier, and in at least one case ('Black Jack') an > identical dance had been published 200 years before being > collected. I should have added that dancing masters were roaming the English countryside through the 19th century (grazing here and there, but not destroying much property), and what Sharp collected had probably been influenced by them already -- including the clogging, so even the village dancing is documentably suspect as 'folk'. See Flett & Flett, Traditional Dancing in the Lakelands. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:42:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:41:48 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Barbara Ruth, Sorry, but I fail to see that Sharp's interpretrations have anything to do with a real folk tradition. I suspect that you and I are defining "folk" very differently. Since this subject has received considerable attention from scholars recently, may I suggest that you refer to their discussions and then write to me regarding your definition of the word? Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:43:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thank you with regard to Barbara Ruth. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:16:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:11:54 -0700 From: EVANS Nan E Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Jack's Health To: ecd (Return requested) Message-ID: <"05D7E323DC29A010*/c=us/admd= /prmd=or.gov/o=PRD/ou=MSMail/s=EVANS/g=Nan/i=E/"-AT- MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT <"Bolt the Door" is almost always used here, and is the only tune given in Barnes. I've danced it to the original tune twice, once to Brad Foster and once to Fried Herman, and the character it gives the dance is completely different. (And considerably less robust; in comparison, almost wimpy.) But that's modern taste for you.> I am familiar with Jack's Health as described by Alan - with "Bolt the Door" (and I learned it on the east coast, but have danced it many times on the west coast, too). But I have always been curious how the Jack's Health I know evolved from what is described in Neal. My memory is that they are considerably different (but, then my menory doesn't have a Sharp reference for Jack's Health...) Does anybody know more about the version we dance today ? Nan Evans Portland OR ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:05:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:10:21 +0000 From: Mary Stafford Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: "Flaming" To: 'English Country Dance List' Message-ID: <01BBA412.D860A6C0-AT- mes.world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am posting this to the list because I feel it is for all of us, not = for the current participants in the somewhat ascerbic discussion on = "folk" and "court". Alan has kindly stepped in and spelled out a bit of = netiquet, but perhaps more of us should comment. I am frequently alarmed at the degree to which all the lists I subscribe = to have regular flaming going on. While we sign our names- and some of = us know one another in person- there does seem to be an element in = posting which *feels* anonymous, and encourages sharpness, rudeness, in = short, the sort of conversation which in person would certainly be = considered not in the realm of politeness. I, for one, do not enjoy it. Can't we discuss issues here in a less = "Sharp" manner? Mary Stafford A Boston area dancer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:15:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:14:40 -1000 From: Patricia Anne Moffitt Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: "Flaming" To: Mary Stafford CC: 'English Country Dance List' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello mary- I would agree with you, I think. Would you be willing to offer suggestions to the list?! Thanks. Patricia Moffitt formerly of Illinois, now in Hawaii! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:56:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:57:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Mieczkowski Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609170257.WAA08240-AT- mail.snet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, I've read some recent articles titled "Discussions of modern and historical english country dance" listed under "X-Listname" at this address. I and my wife Cathy are active in English, Irish, and Scottish Country Dance and found the articles interesting. Can we be put on your mailing list and/or join the discussion group? Jim ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:28:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:27:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: BE NICE (NO DANCE CONTENT) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT hey, fellow ECD lovers; i love a nice discussion, and i especially enjoying reading all that research that others have done on my behalf, and enjoy impassioned statements of one's views. but there is no reason for anyone to get huffy, either about anyone else's apparent uncouth lack of scholarship, or for anyone's apparent smug erudition. i, for one, am a good example of the unwashed masses. i have neither the time nor the inclination to do a bunch of scholarly reading. this does not diminish the validity of my views on life and dance. i appreciate your thinking i need to read more. you may be right, and you certainly may teach me something in the process of telling me so. but turning this into the barbara ruth discussion list is definitely a waste of time. moi, paragon of internet virtue, wrote her personally to tell her i enjoy her postings. if i'd really wanted to flame her, i'd have done it the same way. please let's remember that we're all here because we love the dance (it's NOT an actual scholarly list. i'm on one of those, too. different creature altogether), and that varying viewpoints are to be encouraged if we're not to get awfully bored, and that there's no reason for anyone to be mean. be gentle. there's more than enough mean in this world. sorry, no dance comment here. just a plea to share rather than fight. sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not a mediator for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:02:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:50:40 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Oil in the Court To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: Oil in the Court Alan, thank you. One clarification. While my apparently lame attempt at a play on the word "court" was indeed meant to be humorous, I have to say that I am *not* convinced that introducing ECD into legal proceedings would not improve their tone. I do agree with you, however, on the long white wigs issue. Barbara Ruth -------------------------------------- By Usenet standards, at least, Barbara is being the soul of moderation. (But perhaps I've been spoiled by reading alt.fandom.cons, where one contributor commonly spreads threats of lawsuits and jail time, even though I'm staying away from alt.flames and alt.peeves.) 1) I believe Barbara was joking about "court" dances improving the tone of our present legal system. However, don't forget that Playford's shop was near the Inns of Court, where country dancing was frequently done -- see Patri Pugliese and Joseph whose-last-name-I-can't-remember-offhand -- and law students were in fact among his clientele. I still don't think this means we need to wear long white wigs and black robes at Playford Balls. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:02:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:50:34 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: RE>>PERIOD SLAVERY -------------------------------------- Also, it would be useful to your position to assure us you have read The Imagined Village" and are aware of that work's unique, yet important view on Cecil Sharp. Given that my only "position" is that people whose opinions differ from Julia Sutton's (or anyone else's) deserve to be allowed to express them without being summarily dismissed, it is difficult to see what bearing my having read or not read that book has on the matter. Someone, I don't recall who, sent a post in which he or she referred to contemporary ECD as folk-dancing, and Ms. Sutton posted back that the notion of ECD as a folk-dance had been dropped, end of story. As I pointed out, and the subsequent discussion has demonstrated that notion has been far from dropped. Whether or not *contemporary* ECD is properly considered a folk-dance is, I think, an interesting though to be honest fairly trivial, question, involving all sorts of issues such as our definitions of "folk", how those definitions mesh with modern technology and its effect on modes of transmission, how much importance people place on history and development of a particular form etc. These are all clearly matters of opinion, and every person on this list has the right to hold and express their opinion without being treated like a foolish child speaking out of turn in school. Regarding the *history and origins* of ECD I am extremely ignorant and so have no opinion as it its "folkiness". I have, however, been learning a lot from the quite lively discussion that has been going among people who do have knowledge on the subject, many of whose points seem to be in direct contradiction to Ms. Sutton's assertions. While I do not have the knowledge to evaluate who's positions are more accurate, the fact that this interesting and informative discussion resulted from my disputing her statement that the matter had been dropped suggests to me that my doing so was a productive move. I certainly did not intend to start any kind of feud situation, but I get the impression from both this post and private messages that among some people any questioning of Julia Sutton is viewed as a vicious attack. Regarding the book in question, I am in fact quite interested in reading it. I understand that it has just lately come out in a paperback (and therefore affordable) edition. I would have expected it to be in the CDSS catalogue, however I didn't find it listed on-line. If anyone has information on obtaining a paperback copy I would be grateful for it. Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:25:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:25:10 -0400 From: MartinezPC-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Lightly troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960917142510_286909730-AT- emout18.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was so sure Gene Murrow's lightbulb joke would calm those waters...... Just a few days before the recent rather tense exchange, I was telling some non-dancer friends how impressed I was with the manner in which ideas were expressed on this list. It's true that our shared love of ECD is what brings us here, and we're lucky to be such a diverse group who can approach our subject from different perspectives and enjoy it at different levels. Let's put this minor discord behind us and go back to learning from each other in this wonderful forum Alan Winston has provided. Carol Martinez ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:34:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:34:01 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT With regard to Barbara Ruth's most recent and enlightening letter, I need only say that I was speaking, of course, of the origins of ECD, a subject on which I and other scholars can now claim some degree of authority based on available factual evidence. As to what it is today, I agree that that is a matter of opinion and depends on how one defines "folk" today. I also agree that, as I had hoped, my comment at the beginning of this controversy seems to have stirred up some active thinking. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:26:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:25:40 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Lightly troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960917142540.4958-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks Carol. You have helped us keep sight of the fact that we are a discussion list, not a persuasion list. Also, as many of you have noticed, the ECD world is relatively small. Imagine flaming someone and meeting them as a staff member at a dance week or weekend. Hmmmmm. Here's to respect and tranquility. John Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:30:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:20:39 -0400 From: The Dupres Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Jack's Health To: 'ECD List' Message-ID: <01BBA4BD.A43C2580-AT- dupre.nerc.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dan, much joy to you on your discovery of Jack's Health! It has always been a standard of the English dance repertoire in the Playford/CDSS circles in which I dance, and I've never grown tired of it. I remember dancing it once at Pinewoods in an extraordinarily happy state and thinking that, if I were going to pick the time of my death, doing it while dancing that Jack's Health would be perfectly fine. In the Princeton area, we have occasionally used the Irish song "Follow Me to Carlow" in a medley with "Bolt the Door" for Jack's Health. Follow Me to Carlow is similar in flavor to Bolt the Door and a very good match for it. Sue Dupre Lawrenceville, NJ dupre-AT- nerc1.nerc.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:24:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:27:30 -0400 From: John Castleton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609180019.UAA27693-AT- marlo.eagle.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe jrcastle-AT- eagle.ca John Castleton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:23:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:25:47 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Sharon W. Green) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Fried's Birthday SURPRISE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello to All! This is an open invitation to all of you to join in Country Dance * New York's surprise celebration of the birthday of choreographer/country dance teacher Fried de Metz Herman. Fried's birthday falls on Wednesday, Nov. 13th. Not quite by chance, we have her scheduled to lead our New York dance on Tuesday, Nov. 12th [7:00-10:15 pm, Metropolitan Duane Church, 201 W. 13th St., NYC]. We plan to surprise her with cakes (no ale--church is dry), cards, and, from her dancing friends, a personal copier to lessen her problems duplicating dances for musicians, importunate callers, et al. If you can, please come. If you can't come but want to send a card or note to be given to her at the dance, mail it to: Fried Herman c/o Sharon Green 175 Ninth Avenue New York, NY 10011 If you want to get in on the New York copier gift (and it's really fine to send a note without getting in on the gift--the copier's just something the New York crowd wanted to do for her), send a check for $5 or $10 made out to me, Sharon Green, at the above address or give me money when you see me at a dance. (But make me write it down, please!) I'll add your $ to the kitty and put your name on the gift contributors' list that we'll give Fried on the 12th. Thanks for giving your time to reading this -- and thanks above all for keeping this project a secret from Fried and Al. Much love, Sharon PS. General apology in advance: Because I'm not sure who all actually subscribes to this group, I may wind up sending some of you folk duplicate e-mails. I apologize for the clutter. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:31:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:33:30 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fried's Birthday SURPRISE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Technical note: the misformatting of Sharon's message was my fault, as I pasted it from her copy into my emailer; please pardon the occasional abrupt lines. Michael Siemon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:56:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:56:39 -0800 (PST) From: meier-AT- SSRL.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <009A8852.6C0F298B.5-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding the origins of ECD... Okay, my curiosity is whetted. I'm familiar with the way court dances worked their way elsewhere, but it's not necessarily clear to me that the directions pointed only from the court to the lower classes. Just as a for-instance, I'm imagining The Black Nag starting out as a court dance. On the one hand, it's well suited to dancers wearing panniers, and I know that "court dance" doesn't equal "glacial in speed." On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be the most courtly of dances in tone. Is that merely my modern eyes and ears at work? I furrow my brow in puzzlement. And if The Playford Ball readily at hand is to be believed, the dance may have been kissin' cousins with another dance and tune called "Millison's Jig," which sounds even less upper-crust. (Of course we'll never know who borrowed what from whom.) And there are other dances that are part of the modern ECD repertoire that I have serious trouble imagining as originating at court, such as Sellenger's Round. Perhaps that follows on from the way we've gathered our repertoire, "traditional" dances here and "court" dances there. But if that's true, that would seem to answer my question by default: Isn't it likely that ECD has multiple origins? I think of the way that other dances have moved across classes, often from lower to upper, and back and forth across the Continent, and continue to do so today on a global scale. And I see what look like obvious links between Renaissance popular dancing and Playford dances. Of course, this might be a definitional issue (which courts are we talking about as the sun-source for ECD; do we ignore "traditional" contributions to the dance, or...?), in which case some defining of terms might clear up my confusion. Vanessa Schnatmeier =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER-AT- SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:30:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:30:41 -0800 (PST) From: meier-AT- SSRL.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <009A8857.2CE4C5CC.2-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan -- > a) Playford and Playford-style dances were 'court' dances, or at least > not village dances. Dancing masters taught them, were sometimes > credited with creating them, and they were done with considerable > styling and special steps. I'm not sure that you and I share a definition of 'court' dances, by the above. The published Playford manuals were aimed at the middle classes, I've been told, rather than the upper crust, though the middle classes may have been doing them *because* the upper classes were doing them. But those mass printings of the Playford books would have exhausted their market among the upper class within one or two printings, surely. > b) At the turn of the century and after, villagers were doing > country dances, and many of them were doing stepping or > 'clogging', either as solo performance or embellishment of > country dances. While these might be considered folk dances, > it's interesting to note that not-dissimilar dances had been > published earlier, and in at least one case ('Black Jack') an > identical dance had been published 200 years before being > collected. ...while I had a whole paragraph ready to put in here, it strikes me that it depends on how one defines "folk dance," and since if we're lucky that very discussion will be starting shortly I'll hold off until we've got more agreement within the list, or at least have two or three clear though different definitions. Vanessa Schnatmeier =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER-AT- SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:02:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:01:37 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960918090137.4b14-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It's been awhile since I looked at this sort of thing at one of the many Rare Book Schools at Virginia, some years back. But I recall a discussion on press runs for music or music/dance works in the late 17th century. The typical press run was, at most, about 250. The publisher (who arranged and financed most of this) paid the printer (who actually set typ and ran press) out of his pocket and hoped to meet expenses by selling the necessary number of copies. By selling a few more, he might even make a profit or two. If you look through the Various Dancing Master editions, you will note a lack of listed subscribers, those who would pay in advance and underwrite the cost of the published work. John Carter's "ABC for Book Collectors" ( (I"m using the 6th edition) suggests that subscribers funded "expensive books, pravately printed books, special copies, or even the whole edition would sometim es be issued on subscription." (p. 198) Lack of subscribers would suggest a speculative venture for middle- or upper-middle buyers. See also Samuel Pepys encounters with John Playford's store and materials (I prefer the Latham/armstrong, et.al. version--well edited!). Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:44:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:43:54 -0800 (PST) From: meier-AT- SSRL.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <009A88EF.E5858CCC.4-AT- ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Barbara Ruth's most recent posting sheds some light on why I didn't see an immediate flurry of postings in response to my inquiry. I was sure that there would be at least as many opinions as there are vocational and avocational dance historians here on the list, even if only to explain to me exactly where and how I had gone wrong :-), and I looked (and still look) forward to hearing what people have to say. I know I don't have any animosities or set positions regarding the origins of ECD, only my observations over the period of time I've been studying the history of dance. (Only a decade, which is much less than some people here, but from a different viewpoint.) If historians have agreed on something that hasn't percolated down to the masses yet, I for one would like to hear more details. I might ask "*which* historians," though. From watching the endless discussions on the origins of Morris dancing I know that there can be several viewpoints held by different and equally well-qualified groups. I think of mailing lists like these as reasonably level playing fields where practitioners, theorists and novices can trade information back and forth. Was there discussion on the topic of ECD origins at the Amherst Assembly? I'd love to hear about it; I'm still dying to hear more about the content of the workshops in general. Inviting an informative, light-hearted discussion, Vanessa Schnatmeier (not an upstart, but an inquiring mind) =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER-AT- SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:03:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:03:42 -0400 From: Jailbait Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Subscriptions. Not really ecd related, To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609182103.RAA23282-AT- asylum.apocalypse.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT But I think it's worth mentioning. Limited editions with advance subscriptions were alive and well at least up through the mid 1980's. A small british record company, variously known as Reccommended Records, Re Records, and the ^R Records, and the ReR Megacorp, put out a great many of its titles in the mid-80s using an advance subscription plan to finance the venture. The subscribers usually received an extra tidbit as thanks for parting with their money up to a year before the record was printed. And it seems to me that what Forbes is describing in his(?) first paragraph is what's known today as "Vanity Press", another practive that's alive and well in the current day. Plus ca change, and all that... JB ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:34:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There was indeed a day on the origins of ECD at Amherst, and I did it. I'm still exhausted, though, so I hope someone else will sum it up for ms. meier. Any takers? Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:41:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:39:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD as folk dance (too long) To: ECD list Message-ID: <960918223916_71332.2116_GHL131-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As we veer dangerously close to a discussion thread on "what is 'folk'" (after which we can tackle the situation in Bosnia-Herzogovina)... It was great to read Alan's succinct summary of what many proposed as a useful distinction between the *origins* of ECD (often not-folk)) and its *evolution* through means of transmission that seem " folk." My mouse skipped a click as I thought we had come to a neat way of resolving the issue, but then some thoughts intruded... When my Morris team dances out, inevitably some onlookers ask "Is this Greeek dancing, or what??", and we say "No, it's English Morris dancing," and they say "You mean, like, English folk dancing?", and we unhesitatingly say "Yes." Now do a thought experiment substituting "Apley House" for a Morris dance; or for more clarity substitute "Margaret's Waltz." I find the "yes, it's a folk dance" sticking a bit, regardless of evolutionary mode. A few years back, Francis Fukuyama wrote a seminal essay in Foreign Affairs Quarterly popularly referenced as "The End of History" in which he argued that the end of the Cold War had also brought to an end history itself (in its Hegelian, dialectical sense-- whew! I haven't used those words since those college all-nighters!! Great article, nonetheless!). About 2 years ago environmentalist Bill McKibben wrote "The End of Nature" arguing that the overwhelming influences of humankind's activity, artifacts, and technology had ended "wilderness" and even nature itself as an entity apart from human society. Some scientists are now seriously discussing (often under the rubric "ironic science") the "end of science" (following nearly complete breakthroughs in our understanding of so many areas). Well, perhaps we're seeing the "end of foik" in our post-industrial societies. It may be, now, a useless concept. Three years ago, some suggestive movements by a female singer in a South American night club were answered by some rude taunts from the band-- their improvisations became a "song and dance" part of their act. A few months ago, it was recorded by a different band, and became a dance craze around the globe. Is the Macarena a folk dance? If English Morris dance is a folk tradition, than so is American cheerleading-- it has distinctive village traditions, is done in "teams" of common folk, is passed on by demonstration and integration of new people into existing teams, serves a ritual purpose, is often competitive, is performed on specified days, marks the cycles of the year regulating an activity important to the community (e.g. football in Texas or basketball in Indiana), and has origins "lost in the mists of time." Weird, eh? To point those of us who are interested in such issues in a fruitful direction, perhaps Julia could share some of the current scholarly views or references she has alluded to. And finally, please add my voice to those who find the tone of discourse on this forum most acceptable and enjoyable, and giving no offense whatsoever. Without passionate argument, snippy retorts, sarcastic comments, bad jokes, pompous self-aggrandizement-- think how dull it would be! Gene Murrow EC Dancer and idle thinker (sitting in a hotel room at a conference waiting for an evening session to start) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:41:57 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:39:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE:Jack's Health To: ECD list Message-ID: <960918223919_71332.2116_GHL131-2-AT- CompuServe.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jim Morrison introduced Jack's Health to the CDSS crowd back in the early 70's. He found the tune "Bolt the Door" in one of the O'Neill collections of Irish tunes, and asked that it be used for the dance whenever he called it (much scrambling among us musicians who were used to reading from big bound volumes of Sharp's piano arrangements or from the Community Dance Manuals). I don't know whether he did the actual reconstruction-- at the time he was working on a lot of early American dances. Somebody ask him! Gene Murrow Celebrating Jack (Shimer)'s Health and impending marriage at age 83+ to Joan Carr, former Pinewoods/CDSS Camp Manager! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:54:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD as folk dance (too long) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Gene Murrow wrote: > Well, perhaps we're seeing the "end of foik" > in our post-industrial societies. It may be, now, a useless concept. > [snip] > > If English Morris dance is a folk tradition, than so is American cheerleading-- > it has distinctive village traditions, is done in "teams" of common folk, is > passed on by demonstration and integration of new people into existing teams, > serves a ritual purpose, is often competitive, is performed on specified days, > marks the cycles of the year regulating an activity important to the community > (e.g. football in Texas or basketball in Indiana), and has origins "lost in the > mists of time." Weird, eh? You know, I'd never even considered that, but on reflection, I'll buy it lock, stock and barrel unless someone can give me a helluva good reason why not. Which means, of course, that the concept of "folk" is, in fact, alive and well even in this post-industrial society of ours. (It survives in other contexts too, most notably "urban legend". Get that poodle out of the microwave, honey!) BTW, *does* anyone have any idea where the cheerleaders' movements came from? And does anyone besides me think the resemblance to Morris movements is pretty strong? Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:01:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:00:25 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It is extremely likely, but unprovable, that ECD has multiple origins. As I have pointed out, the coincidence of some highly sophisticated as well as simpler figures, with Italian court dance of the 15th and 16th centuries is very clear. As for "folk" origins, the problem is that until the 19th century noone recorded dances done by the folk (i.e., rural, lower-class, illiterate, people depending upon oral tradition), and so stated. So we have no evidence! Our evidence, from Playford and others in the 17th c., was designed for the gentry (who could read), and the dancing masters named by Playford, like Mr. Isaac, taught only the upper upper crust. Julia Sutton ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:04:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:03:23 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John, Pepys was in fact upper upper middle class--not an aristocrat by birth; but he walked in Whitehall and conversed, if I remember, with the king! Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:15:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD as folk dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Gene, For some discussions and bibliography on what is folk, see some of the articles in Kitty's wonderful collection for the Amherst Assembly. The New Grove article also sums up the issues. Some of the questions scholars have asked recently about "folk": Does it come from rural origins only? Is it "folk" if the author of the dance is known? Is it "folk" if the people who are doing it can read? Operate computers? Own dishwashers? That is, must it depend on oral tradition only? How does it differ from 'traditional" or "popular"? Note that even Chambers's great collection is titled "Popular Music of the Olden Time." Julia ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:08:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:02:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Koeppen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD == Folk Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I9NSTOA1YM000201-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think ECD is a folk dance if you call the bowed string instrument a fiddle. It's a court dance if you call it a violin. :) Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:28:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:25:52 -0700 From: Graham Baldwin Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: ECD as folk dance (too long) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960919192552.006ec818-AT- mail.info-mine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 11:48 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Paul wrote: >BTW, *does* anyone have any idea where the cheerleaders' movements came >from? And does anyone besides me think the resemblance to Morris >movements is pretty strong? I am lead to believe that the cheerleaders movements are derived from "carnival" morris, which is derived from northwest morris. "Carnival" morris began during the 1st World War when there was a shortage of men to dance - it has continued as an "offshoot" ever since. Hence, the resemblance between cheerleaders and morris is unsurprising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham J. Baldwin Tel: +1 (604) 322-5476 Vancouver Morris Men Fax: +1 (604) 681-4166 2211 Portside Court, Vancouver, BC E-mail: gbaldwin-AT- info-mine.com CANADA V5P 4T9 URL: http://www.info-mine.com/vmm/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:04:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:02:34 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: cheerMorris dancers To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: cheerMorris dancers >BTW, *does* anyone have any idea where the cheerleaders' movements came >from? And does anyone besides me think the resemblance to Morris >movements is pretty strong? I am lead to believe that the cheerleaders movements are derived from "carnival" morris, which is derived from northwest morris. "Carnival" morris began during the 1st World War when there was a shortage of men to dance - it has continued as an "offshoot" ever since. Hence, the resemblance between cheerleaders and morris is unsurprising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham J. Baldwin Lending further credence to Gene's assertion that cheerleading is a form of folk-dance! Hmmm, Gene had us viewing modern ECD as a kind of basketball dance (which of course ties into it's origins as a "court" dance) and now Morris dance as cheerleading . . . are we starting to see a pattern here? Barbara Ruth ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:57:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:59:52 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE:Jack's Health To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609200159.VAA13854-AT- xis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Jim Morrison introduced Jack's Health to the CDSS crowd back in the > early 70's. He found the tune "Bolt the Door" in one of the O'Neill > collections of Irish tunes, and asked that it be used for the dance > whenever he called it (much scrambling among us musicians who were > used to reading from big bound volumes of Sharp's piano arrangements > or from the Community Dance Manuals). I don't know whether he did > the actual reconstruction-- at the time he was working on a lot of > early American dances. Somebody ask him! > Thanks Gene! I'm curious what Jim's source was. CDS 5 may also tell us something if anyone has a copy. Jack's Health was widely published (Playford/Young, Walsh, Neal and Johnson at least), but I don't believe it was in an American source. It's not listed in Bob Keller's "Dance Figures Index" and that's pretty definitive. As Nan noted, the version of Jack's Health "we" do differs a bit from the Jackson/Fogg interpretation of Neal. At the dance last night, I asked Ian MacFarlane if he remembered how they danced it in England. Ian commutes from England for our Wednesday English dance in Glen Echo (and occasionally stops in at his company's offices in nearby Virginia) ;-). He told me an amusing anecdote. After returning to England from one of his frequent visits here, Ian started to call Jack's Health at his local club. Not far into the dance, the dancers clamoured, "No, that's not how it goes." He had started teaching the "American" version a la Jim Morrison. From his description, it sounds like his club in England may dance the Jackson/Fogg version, which has a 2-hand turn after the back to back with neighbors. That leaves me all the more curious about where Jim Morrison may have found his version. Jack's Health is one of the very few dances where the descriptions in the published sources differ. Playford/Young, Walsh and Neal all have slightly different versions. There is also a Iack's [sic] Health in Johnson (Wright's Compleat Collection of Celebrated Country Dances . . . 1742). According to Kitty Keller's National Tune Index, it is the same tune. Since I don't have access to that edition of Johnson, I can't say if the dance figures are the same. Also, Tom Cook's "The Assembly" (if I am deciphering it correctly) says that the 17th edition of the Dancing Master has a different dance from the other editions. > Gene Murrow > > Celebrating Jack (Shimer)'s Health and impending marriage at age 83+ > to Joan Carr, former Pinewoods/CDSS Camp Manager! > What wonderful news! Two things that stand out in my mind from my first week at Pinewoods many years ago are Joan's fine piano music and Jack's welcoming smile toward a clumsy novice dancer. ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:47:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:45:17 +0000 From: Howard Mitchell Subject: Cheerleaders and Carnival Morris To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199609200947.KAA12910-AT- zeus.tcp.net.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Graham Baldwin wrote: > I am lead to believe that the cheerleaders movements are derived from > "carnival" morris, which is derived from northwest morris. "Carnival" > morris began during the 1st World War when there was a shortage of men to > dance - it has continued as an "offshoot" ever since. Hence, the > resemblance between cheerleaders and morris is unsurprising. This subject has been discussed before on the Morris Dance Discussion List I'm not sure that Carnival Morris was started entirely because of a lack of men. Nor am I aware of any direct connection from Carnival Morris to cheer leaders, though I would agree that they share some stylistic points. I think in relatively recent years there has been some influence in the opposite direction with American-style marching bands accompanying carnival morris and the inclusion of modern dance steps. Carnival Morris can (probably) trace it's origins to a single team, the so-called 'Cranford Team'. There were a number of teams of young boys and girls in the 1920's, trained by men who had danced before the first world war but generally these have not survived. For example at Hayfield teams of boys were trained by former dancers and at Clitheroe Chris Winkley, leader of a pre-war men's team trained a troupe of girls in 1920 and appeared with them as late as 1935. Not all teams were, however, so firmly rooted in the older tradition. At Knutsford there was formed in about 1918 a girls' troupe - later mixed - which based its dance on what it remembered from seeing the Peover men dance at Knutsford May festival before the war. The girls who trained this team added figures of their own, and in the years following taught the resultant dance to many other newly formed troupes (between 1924 and 1930, three members of the Cranford team alone trained new troupes at Alderley Edge, Altrincham, Aughton, Morley and Mobberley) who no doubt passed it on again to others. Indeed it is probable that most of the troupes now dancing are in some way descended from this Cranford team. Carnival Morris, tracing it's routes to a single example of NW morris became preponderant in 1920-30 when judges appointed by carnival organizations favoured the style adopted by the Cranford team. Howard Mitchell Today in my temporary capacity as Archivist of the Manchester Morris Men ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 06:31:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:30:36 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960920083036.4955-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I remember reading his excitement upon return of the King ending the Commonwealth. He was a naval clerk who had a little corporation "on the side" for supplying goods to ships. He was very jealous and upset at the possibilty of his wife having an affair with her dancing master. Pepys talks of going to church and getting angry at seeing the dancing master present and wondering if he and Pepys' wife were exchanging glances or comminicating in any way. He was apparently a good singer and owned various string instruments. His diary reports the making of a new one and the repair of an old one--such anguish. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 06:53:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:53:00 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: ECD == Folk Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960920085300.4955-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It's been some years since I took a folklore class. For materials to be classified as folklore (and "folkdance" or "folk dance" by name seems to fit that definition) they must be disseminated through oral processes and, as part of that process, changed by those who receive it. There were a few other elements too, erased by time in my mind. Since we are struggling so hard to hold fast to a firm, disciplined Playford concept of teaching and practice, it is hard to imagine them as folk dances in our day. Historically, that's another story. We don't really get the materials until they've been codified, standardized by dancing masters and their followers. Playford was publishing for a modestly mass audience. His was a commercial venture, not a vanity press matter at all. He did it to make money. Vanity press/self publishing is for those who have other sources of income and wish to self-aggrandize themselves in society. Munstedt, in his excellent dissertation, has identified 84 items published by Playford, includ- ing two or more items combined in one. Munstedt also suggests 25 additional items presumed to be lost. Of these possible 109 items, 11 (depending how you count the various addenda) or more were given to the Dancing Master sequence. That would put our beloved materials at about ten to twelve per cent of the total. We know that son Henry Playford continued the series and more volumes were added after his death using the same title and many of the same dances. My carefully obscured point is, when we got them they were not folk dances at all. John Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:04:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:04:13 -0400 From: FarMcTrav-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960920140413_289312869-AT- emout01.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-16 10:16:57 EDT, you write: > I don't know that much about what's being done in England, but in >> the U.S. at this point in time ECD is most definitely not done in court. >> (Although it would undoubtedly improve proceedings there if it were.) >> >> Barbara Ruth > >The only evidence I have of the royal family dancing at all is from a >television programme a couple of years ago which showed them at a >Scottish ball. ( Now there's another argument to get into - is >Scottish dancing 'folk' ? ) > >Bob > >---------------------------------------------------------- >-- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk > > I've been happy to lurk in the wings, and am happy to be learning from the discussion group, and hesitant to contribute because my knowledge of ECDing is less then my knowledge and experience with SCDing. The conversation above is something that I feel I can contribute to. While ECDing is not done by the Royals, SCding is *very definitely* done by them. The current Queen learned SCDing from private tutors in about 1939 - 40, when she and Princess Margaret were sent to Holyrood Palace in Edinburgh, at the beginning of WWII. (King George sent them to be out of the way of expected German bombings). It was then Queen Elizabeth, now Queen "Mum", who comes from a very old Scottish noble family (one Scottish historian describes her family as being far more distinguished then the German antecedents of King George), who requested Jean Milligan from the Scottish Country Dance Society to send over tutors for private lessons. I know this from having known one of the tutors for many years, and asking him to tell me the entire story. An interesting side note to his story, by the way, is that the much vaunted Scottish "technique" in doing steps was changed in several steps so that the Princesses would not ruin their silk stockings! In any case, Queen Mum knew how to dance from having grown up at Glamis Castle where they did still dance in early 20th C, the current Queen and Princess Margaret learned from tutors (though they dance in a very distinctive style which varies from the orthodox RSCDS), and they have attempted to teach the other members of the Royal family. (Prince Andrew was taught by a friend of mine at Gordonstoun some years ago. She describes him as "energetic".) In the late 1980's I developed a friendship with one of Queen Mums cousins, who lives primarily in Scotland, and who always goes to the Scottish Ball mentioned in the thread (and shown on TV). That specific ball is the Ghillies Ball held at Balmoral in the month of September when the Royal family is in residence there; the rest of the year the ballroom serves as the display room / museum for Balmoral. According to the Queens cousin, the tradition of having the Ghillies Ball dates to Queen Victoria's time, and has been held ever since. Some members of the Royals apparently enjoy SCDing and others put up with it (sound familiar?) Prince Philip is not fond of it, but the Queen, Princess Anne and the younger ones enjoy it on occasion. Malcolm (the cousin) could not tell me how often they danced, because he usually sees them when they're in Scotland, but he did say that it was not unusual for country dancing to take place when the Queen attended "modern" balls. (This would not be unusual, because within mainstream Scottish society it is very typical to have a few country dances in the course of a modern formal evening dance). In summary, there is lots of evidence to suggest that the Royals do Scottish country dancing. I was glad that no one picked up the "is Scottish dancing folk?" thread, because that's a debate that sometimes rages within the SCD teachers community, and we have gone round many times on it, and have never resolved it! I think it's very sad that King George did not encourage the incorporation of ECDing in his family upbringing, and agree with Barbara Ruth that it would undoubtably improve proceedings there if it were. Ken McFarland ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:04:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:04:15 -0400 From: FarMcTrav-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960920140415_289312897-AT- emout03.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-16 11:35:00 EDT, you write: >Bob Archer asked >>> is Scottish dancing 'folk' ? ) > >I believe the RSCDS assert that since the Queen does it then it is not folk The primary argument that Scottish country dancing is not folk came from Jean Milligan, one of the founders of the SCDS, who wrote it into the manual. RSCDS teachers still debate the point in much the same way that this group is debating the definition and full meaning of the word folk in reference to ECDing. The RSCDS maintains that because the dances were done by the entire spectrum of Scottish society, not just by the folk but also by the court & nobility, that it should not be called folk dancing. To my knowledge, there is no one who argues that because the current Queen does it that it must not be called folk. In other words, the argument within that community of dancers is much the same as here: did the dancing originate with "folk", how does one define folk within the country dance world, and which came first, the chicken or the ghillie? Ken McFarland ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:04:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:04:17 -0400 From: FarMcTrav-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960920140416_289312914-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In a message dated 96-09-16 16:25:25 EDT, you write: > d) Since then, especially since ECD took off in the US, it's been > diffusing in a bunch of different directions. There is no central > Academy as there is for the French language or for the (apparently > largely-made-up) Scottish country dance, I would take exception to the choice of words "apparently largely-made-up". Care to quote your authority for this? The debate about "interpretation" is shared by both English and Scottish country dancing communities; the arguments are just as heated. I know these words were not your major point, but IMHO you generalized and give incorrect information. There are good written dance MSS which I have personally seen, and while it is true that the RSCDS has had to interpret some individual figures within them, it's also true that some of them are perfectly clear and have been re-published exactly as they were originally danced. If the RSCDS is subject to criticism, it would be on the subject of how footwork was interpreted. Ken McFarland ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:22:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Dancing among the Royals To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Ken! Welcome to the Lists! (Pun Intended!) Thanks for a delightfuk & informative contribution on a side country dancing that most of us don't get to see! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:09:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:08:02 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Re: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8A74.D60961F2.16-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ken McFarland quoted me: >> d) Since then, especially since ECD took off in the US, it's been >> diffusing in a bunch of different directions. There is no >central >> Academy as there is for the French language or for the >(apparently >> largely-made-up) Scottish country dance, >I would take exception to the choice of words "apparently largely-made-up". >Care to quote your authority for this? The debate about "interpretation" is >shared by both English and Scottish country dancing communities; the >arguments are just as heated. "Traditional Dancing in Scotland" by Flett talks about -- you guessed it -- traditional dancing in Scotland, and it doesn't seem to closely resemble what little I've seen of RSCDS dancing. (Isolated communities were found that only knew one dance -- the reel -- until itinerant dancing masters arrived there, sometimes as late as the end of the 19th century.) I don't think Flett explicitly addresses RSCDS dancing; the 'largely-made-up' part was my own conclusion. [And I don't think there's anything wrong with being an invented tradition, incidentally, only with pretending to be an accurate reconstruction when you aren't. Much of RSCDS style, barring the Strathspey step, looks to me like early-19th-century English style, which was not resurrected with ECD.] >I know these words were not your major point, but IMHO you generalized and >give incorrect information. There are good written dance MSS which I have >personally seen, and while it is true that the RSCDS has had to interpret >some individual figures within them, it's also true that some of them are >perfectly clear and have been re-published exactly as they were originally >danced. If the RSCDS is subject to criticism, it would be on the subject of >how footwork was interpreted. Are these manuscripts explicitly Scottish? When do they date from? I may have mistakenly bought into some of Chris Brady's ranting on rec.folk-dancing, where he swears that RSCDS founders ignored what was really in their backyards in favor of importing 18th-century English dances from published sources. (While intemperate, he's actually been pretty good on citing sources elsewhere, and this didn't seem completely out of keeping with what Sharp was known to be doing at that time.) In any case, I apologize if I've given incorrect information. I don't know very much about Scottish dancing. -- Alan PS: It's ironic that I managed to give offense in a posting meant to calm down a situation in which some people had taken offense. Life is like that. --APW =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:11:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:10:59 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: (List Stuff) Outage this Weekend To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8A75.3F728D12.10-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- There will be a sitewide power outage at SLAC this weekend, so the list will not be functioning during that time. If you send mail to the list it will probably wait on the originating system until playford.slac.stanford.edu is again available, but that depends on how the originating system is configured. Anyway, if you send something don't be surprised if it doesn't go out until Monday. I'll be shutting this system down sometime after midnight PDT Friday, and bringing it back up sometime late Sunday evening. Sorry for the inconvenience. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:13:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT All true, but he kept moving up until he was in charge of all purchases for the Admiralty, I think. Something like that--so he was indeed a yuppy by today's standards. The dancing master stayed in his household while teaching him and his wife; the purpose of the lessons, again, was to help them move upward socially. No question he was jealous of the dancing master, perhaps with good reason; certainly his wife enjoyed the dancing lessons more than he did! Pepy's diary also tells of their discussion about getting a coach, gold lace on their clothing, etc. All sorts of things associated then with getting richer and richer. What I'm saying is that his acquaintance with Playford, his dancing lessons, etc. all took place after his fortune had become considerable, and he was a personage worthy of being acknowledged by the king. I forgot to keep your original mention of Pepys--was the publication you recommended the complete diary? Would your mind repeating it? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:15:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: ECD == Folk Dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes, that's the point indeed. Julia Sutton On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU wrote: > It's been some years since I took a folklore class. For materials to > be classified as folklore (and "folkdance" or "folk dance" by name seems > to fit that definition) they must be disseminated through oral processes > and, as part of that process, changed by those who receive it. There were > a few other elements too, erased by time in my mind. Since we are struggling > so hard to hold fast to a firm, disciplined Playford concept of teaching and > practice, it is hard to imagine them as folk dances in our day. > Historically, that's another story. We don't really get the materials > until they've been codified, standardized by dancing masters and their > followers. Playford was publishing for a modestly mass audience. His was > a commercial venture, not a vanity press matter at all. He did it to make > money. Vanity press/self publishing is for those who have other sources of > income and wish to self-aggrandize themselves in society. Munstedt, in his > excellent dissertation, has identified 84 items published by Playford, includ- > ing two or more items combined in one. Munstedt also suggests 25 additional > items presumed to be lost. Of these possible 109 items, 11 (depending how > you count the various addenda) or more were given to the Dancing Master > sequence. That would put our beloved materials at about ten to twelve per > cent of the total. We know that son Henry Playford continued the series > and more volumes were added after his death using the same title and many > of the same dances. > My carefully obscured point is, when we got them they were not folk > dances at all. > > John Forbes/Baker University > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:33:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:33:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609201933.OAA19667-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm going to try teaching Newcastle this weekend for the first time. I've danced it before, but it's been a while. I need some help with part 3. I don't see how everyone gets back to their original spot. I've tried working it out on paper, but I keep ending up with everyone in the wrong place, opposite where they should be. It seems like if we kept the women on the right as usual (as opposed to the left as instructed) and the original heads were always on the inside positions of the lines, that it would work out. What am I not seeing? Perhaps it will become clear when I have bodies to move around. If anyone has any clues or tips for me let me know. Thanks. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:59:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:11:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Koeppen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD as a folk dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I9PAZ30AAE000272-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I understand that it's a common problem for people researching folk music and dance that if they go about to notating it, whether you still call it a folk form or not, it can spoil the folk processing by essentially freezing the state of a dynamic entity. I'm inclined to think that no folk processing can exist for people in the "information age". There is just too much opportunity for outside influence. Unlike a turn of century hills fiddler or clogger, for us the term "music" means much more than one of many bluegrass tunes and the term dancing encompasses much more than clogging. For the old-time fiddler to folk process something means to add a few turns here and there or slightly alter the melody. For a modern fiddler to folk process something may mean to add some jazz or middle Eastern influence. For an old-time clogger to folk process something means to invent a new clog step. For a modern clogger it might mean throwing in some Macarena moves. What we are likely to do for fun, and it may catch on, is too drastic to be called folk processing. Our scope is too large to understand the inventiveness boredom inspires. If an old-time fiddler gets bored of playing something, he'll add something new to it out of his pool of creativity consisting of things resulting from all the bluegrass tunes he already knew. If one of us adds something, it'll be something we learned from growing up to Beatles tunes if we aren't very selective. And that kind of selectivity isn't something that is a part of the natural folk process. The notated stuff from the past was frozen and brought to us to use as we please. We don't even need to try to folk process it, so much of it has been notated that if we don't like it or grow bored with it there is more to chose from. Whether it originated from a folk form or not doesn't matter, it's not a folk form anymore. OTOH, there's no harm in pretending that it is :) Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:16:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:15:47 -0500 (EST) From: AAHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I9PHRZ9P2AAOL7EA-AT- amherst.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jonathan, The key to getting back to your own place is that when the lines pass through and opposites change places, the dancers on the inside of the old line go to the ends of the new line, while the dancers on the ends of the old line form the middle of the new line. This is true for both crossings. You are right, it will be much clearer with bodies. (Have you tried using playing cards, or my favorites, Playschool people?) Good luck, Robin Hayden ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:49:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:49:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609202049.PAA21503-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'll have to try using cards, I don't have any playschool people. :-) Hopefully it will become clear. It seems though, just thinking it through, that the original heads are at the sides and thus in the center of the lines along the sides. Then they pass through, go to the ends of the lines and when they pass through their still at the sides, not back at the heads. It also seems like the sides never meet up with their original partner. I'll have to walk it through step-by-step and see if I can figure it out. Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:07:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:07:12 -0500 (EST) From: AAHAYDEN-AT- amherst.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I9PLMZQE2EAKU2KO-AT- amherst.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jonathan, Is it possible you're having people progress too far around the circle (all right, square) during the arming? As in the siding, the second arming (the arm left) happens at the corners, on the diagonal as it were, so that the head women end up as ends in the first lines, and the side women are middles. I could figure it out for the men, but I suppose it must be the same for them. Robin ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:12:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:12:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199609202312.SAA27109-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT That may be where I'm going wrong. I'll try it with the cards and see what comes out. I'm usually pretty good at visualizing dances in my head, but this one has turned out to be confusing. Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:28:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:28:48 PST From: winston-AT- SLAC.Stanford.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCA.DA70C9B2.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: (list stuff) ECD List back on line Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:28:40 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: (list stuff) ECD List back on line To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-to: winston-AT- SLAC.Stanford.EDU Message-id: <009A8CCA.D521B570.38-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Folks -- The ECD list is available again. (SLAC has finished its power outage and brought up its network connections again, so you can post away.) Also, please note that I will be on vacation (away from computers, oh my) for a week starting tomorrow, 9/24, so any list problems will have to wait for my return on Tuesday, 10/1. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:26 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:21 PST From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCC.E2891BF2.6-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:41:40 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <960921134140.5d4c-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT one of the advantages of being a librarian in this dance business! Latham, Robert and Willam Matthews. The Diary of Samuel Pepys. Berkley: University of California Press, 1970. About twelve volumes. The editing is first rate as specific individuals and places mentioned in the diary are described in context and, where appropriate, Pepys' ideas or figures (concerning the plague of 1666[?], for example) are amplified and/or corrected. Curiosly, to my taste, the music is rather badly handled. I have an on/off-again project of reading each diary and extracting the various music and dance references verbatim. Pepys, you will recall, wrote in an easily translatable shorthand or code, and occasionally in French when dealing with affairs of the heart. He had, it is easy to discern, at least on extra-marital affair. You need to know almost no French to read between the lines and the editors, in the first introductory pages, discuss it quite openly. Happy reading Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:38 PST From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCC.EC7FEADC.15-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:17:22 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Subject: Re: PERIOD SLAVERY To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <01I9Q4XW27CI00094S-AT- UG.EDS.COM> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU X-VMS-To: MAILER::IN%"ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >> The RSCDS maintains that because the dances were done by the entire >> spectrum of Scottish society, not just by the folk but also by the court & >> nobility, that it should not be called folk dancing. Thanks -- I stand corrected. This sounds much more plausible than my vague memory of someone quoting someone else quoting ... I must admit that when I dance I don't care whether you choose to call it a folk dance or not, especially when the argument seems to be more about the definition of the word "folk" than about my dance. On the other hand I do think there should be academic honesty in the system -- I have fits of hysterics when I see a display team dressed up in ancient costume doing Cecil Sharp siding. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:40 PST From: jsutton-AT- world.std.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCC.EDE9657E.18-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:57:59 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Subject: RE: Oil (a flammable liquid) on lightly-troubled waters In-reply-to: To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I forgot to say, when I sent this out, that it's with regard to John Forbes's letter about Pepys. On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, julia s sutton wrote: > All true, but he kept moving up until he was in charge of all purchases > for the Admiralty, I think. Something like that--so he was indeed a > yuppy by today's standards. The dancing master stayed in his household > while teaching him and his wife; the purpose of the lessons, again, was to > help them move upward socially. No question he was jealous of the dancing > master, perhaps with good reason; certainly his wife enjoyed the dancing > lessons more than he did! > > Pepy's diary also tells of their discussion about getting a coach, gold > lace on their clothing, etc. All sorts of things associated then with > getting richer and richer. What I'm saying is that his acquaintance > with Playford, his dancing lessons, etc. all took place after his fortune > had become considerable, and he was a personage worthy of being > acknowledged by the king. > > I forgot to keep your original mention of Pepys--was the publication you > recommended the complete diary? Would your mind repeating it? > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:48 PST From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCC.F25D694D.26-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: RE: ECD as a folk dance Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:45:12 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: RE: ECD as a folk dance To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <960921134512.5d4c-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ah, yes, you do receive it in notes. But after you've played it a few hun- dred times, changes creep in. Someone learns it, aurally, from you and after a few hundred times more, additional, subtle changes creep in. That is the folk process at work. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:50 PST From: galloway-AT- xis.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCC.F3A1F017.29-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:04:15 +0000 From: Rich Galloway Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609230304.XAA06500-AT- xis.com> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Comments: Authenticated sender is > It seems though, just thinking it through, that the original heads > are at the sides and thus in the center of the lines along the > sides. Then they pass through, go to the ends of the lines and > when they pass through their still at the sides, not back at the > heads. It also seems like the sides never meet up with their > original partner. I'll have to walk it through step-by-step and > see if I can figure it out. > > Jonathan > I recently had a similar problem "just thinking it through." I had forgotten that each siding and arming progression moved you only 1/8 the way around the circle/square. Anyway, the lines start with the original Heads on the ends of the lines, far from home. I've sketched out just the places the dance progresses below in the hope it may help. Best of luck with your teaching. Part I No progression; all home. Part II 1. Partners side and change places. All now on corners of set, near partner's home place. 2. Side and change places with the next. Heads are at sides; Sides are at heads. All now opposite original partner's. Part III 1. Current partners arm & change places. All now on corners of set. 2. Arm & change places with the next. Momentarily, this would put the Heads at heads with everyone in their opposite's partner's place, except you: 3. Form lines facing across the set with Sides in the middle; Heads at the ends. 4. Pass through to new lines facing up/down Heads in the middle; Sides at the ends. (In the lines, Heads are now opposite their home places; and Sides are in home place improper, facing their partners.) 5. Pass through to home places. All home. ==================================================== Rich Galloway Silver Spring, MD ==================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:52:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:52:01 PST From: pstamler-AT- crl.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CCE.185FEA25.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: ECD as a folk dance Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:59:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Subject: Re: ECD as a folk dance In-reply-to: <01I9PAZ30AAE000272-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Charles Koeppen wrote: [snip] >I'm inclined to think that no folk > processing can exist for people in the "information age". There is just too > much opportunity for outside influence. Unlike a turn of century hills fiddler > or clogger, for us the term "music" means much more than one of many bluegrass > tunes and the term dancing encompasses much more than clogging. For the > old-time fiddler to folk process something means to add a few turns here > and there or slightly alter the melody. For a modern fiddler to folk > process something may mean to add some jazz or middle Eastern influence. [snip]> Our scope is too large to understand the > inventiveness boredom inspires. If an old-time fiddler gets bored of > playing something, he'll add something new to it out of his pool of > creativity consisting of things resulting from all the bluegrass tunes > he already knew. If one of us adds something, it'll be something we > learned from growing up to Beatles tunes if we aren't very selective. > And that kind of selectivity isn't something that is a part of the natural > folk process. I have two comments on Charlie's posting, one a nit to pick, one a fundamental disagreement. The nit is that no turn of the century player knew any bluegrass tunes, because bluegrass is a modern form, invented ca. 1938. A lot of people think it's been around for centuries, but it hasn't. The fundamental disagreement is with the notion that "folk-processing" (a) involves only small, incremental changes within the framework of a fairly constant tune/song/dance; and (b) has stopped happening in modern society. I'd disagree with both. To take the second idea first, the fact that people will vary tunes by incorporating radically new material these days (last weekend one of our best local contra dance bands folded Pachelbel's Canon in D into a dance tune) does not preclude their also making the incremental changes in phrasing, melody, etc. that musicians have always made for the reasons you stated. In my experience, those of us who play music continue to do that, with or without the more drastic variations. An example: our band plays the tune for "Ashford Anniversary" with an F-natural, rather than an F-sharp as notated in Barnes 95. (Musicians: try it sometime!) We picked up the idea from the Camerata Hungarica, who play it that way (and who list it as a Hungarian Renaissance dance tune). Incremental change. But I also disagree that incremental change is the only way true folk processing occurs. The "folk" have seldom been as isolated from outside influences as many scholars seem to assume, except in a few geographically isolated pockets where communications were poor. Travellers, be they professional musicians or amateurs, gypsies, peddlers, beggars or whatever, brought radically divergent music, songs and (presumably) dances with them, and we have many examples of the adoption of radical changes into folk culture. It may be the less common mechanism, but it did happen--witness the widespread adoption of the banjo in the 19th century, for musical styles quite different from its original African-American roots. In this century, the creation of bluegrass is a textbook example--it differs from other stylistic shifts only in that we can trace its origin through the recordings made at the time, and through interviews with still-living participants. Bluegrass came about when a few musicians, most notably Bill Monroe, Earl Scruggs and Lester Flatt, synthesized a new musical style from old-time/traditional Anglo-American music, white-gospel vocal harmonies, jazz phrasing, structure and bass styles, a new three-finger playing method on the banjo (adapted from medicine-show performers like Snuffy Jenkins), and commercial country-music styles (Sara Carter's guitar flatpicking, 'brother-act' vocal timbres). This new style, which was a classic example of synthesis within a folk culture but with assistance from mass culture media (radio, records), incorporated elements far from the original old-time music base. Similar processes have taken place in the past; we see drastic changes, for example, in traditional ballads when they cross the ocean (they lose most of their supernatural elements) or move from rural to urban settings, even hundreds of years ago. Likewise, we see bleedover between court and folk music and dances, probably arising from musicians who moonlighted by playing for both. (See, for example, O'Carolan.) So, IMHO, the folk process continues wherever there is a culture or subculture where a particular cultural form is treasured. That process, says I, can be incrememtal (with small changes derived from within) or drastic (with new styles or materials imported from elsewhere), but it goes on. Oh yeah, one more thing. Only in a predominantly illiterate culture is folk transmission limited to oral methods. Broadside ballads, itinerant fiddlers' tune books, family song collections, etc. have been around for a very long time. Songs and folk-poetry also were transmitted among the "folk" by newspapers and even graffitti. ("Here I sit, broken hearted...") My $.02. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:13:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:13:26 PST From: j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CD1.16662C22.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:13:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609231913.OAA27804-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I used the playing cards as suggested and worked it through and was able to teach Newcastle successfully. One additional question came up though. It was suggested by someone to do Shaw siding in Part II, and that is my personal preference most of the time. However it isn't clear whether it should be right shoulder siding with the first person and left shoulder with the next, or the same shoulder with both or what. Does anyone have an opinion on this? (Need I ask) :-) Thanks for your assistance. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:30:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:30:24 PST From: eba-AT- umich.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CD3.7544502D.11-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Arnold Subject: Re: newcastle In-reply-to: <009A8CD1.16662C22.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> X-Sender: eba-AT- tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote: > I used the playing cards as suggested and worked it through and was able > to teach Newcastle successfully. One additional question came up though. > It was suggested by someone to do Shaw siding in Part II, and that is my > personal preference most of the time. However it isn't clear whether it > should be right shoulder siding with the first person and left shoulder > with the next, or the same shoulder with both or what. Does anyone have > an opinion on this? (Need I ask) :-) Erna-Lynne Bogue has taught Newcastle in the Ann Arbor area and at selected other places where there isn't an existing tradition with "Shaw siding" right on the first one, then left the second. The honours that follow similarly are to the right the first time, to the left the second. It works quite nicely, I think, and if folks are well synchronized and they don't go past each other, nice diagonal lines appear briefly and as quickly vanish, which in my mind enhances the character of this dance which already has a lot of play with dissolving one geometrical formation and creating another. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:32:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:32:22 PST From: jailbait-AT- apocalypse.org Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CD3.BB8AF785.16-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:31:49 -0400 From: Jailbait Subject: Re: newcastle To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609231931.PAA19401-AT- asylum.apocalypse.org> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT My...what a nice religious war you've just opened up the door to...:) IMESHO, to use anything OTHER than 'Shaw Siding' - or as Colin Hume prefers to call it, 'Siding Into Lines' - in Newcastle is to break the dance. No, admittedly, I come at this as an amateur reconstructor...I first learned Newcastle from someone who had done the reconstruction himself, and who always used SIL because it's more likely the historically 'correct' choice. When I went back to the original text to decide how I felt it ought to be done, I came to the same conclusions about how to side in this dance. Given that, to do the dance as Sharpe reconstructed it - Side and back, slow set to the right, honor, move on to the next - is to make is a dance that is not Newcastle and is to make it a less elegant dance.\ To actually answer your question: Yes. Side right shoulders and back. Side Left shoulder and then progress, more or less a double, to the next. I thank CS for all he did to bring ECD back to popularity, but he realized that his reconstructions were wrong before he finished the CDB series. It would make me SO happy if the modern ECD community would take this correction to heart. If you want to write a new dance that uses Sharpe siding, that's all well and good, but if you're going to do a historical dance, why can't it be done 'right'? Sorry for the emphatic (but I think non-flaming) nature of this post, but it's one of my favorite dances that I just HATE doing in a modern ECD context. JB ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:03:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:03:53 PST From: jsutton-AT- world.std.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CE8.E63E6B4B.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:47:20 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Subject: Re: newcastle In-reply-to: <009A8CD3.7544502D.11-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Please let's remember that Shaw didn't invent what others have named "Shaw siding." He found it, as had others like me, in 18th-century Feuillet notations of country dances (now easily available through Gregg). Sharp, in fact, late in his career found it too, and if my memory serves me, wrote that he had tried to teach it to his dancers but they didn't like it. SIL is a poor term, because the significant thing is that those doing it TOUCH SHOULDERS!! That is, it's a flirtatious interpersonal gesture in which the head and eyes, of course, look to the other. Technically speaking I'd call it 18th-c. siding (there's a 16th-c. type that's highly flirtatious too, but different). When doing dances from 1651, we don't know at present which one they used. But Sharp's invention is not symmetrical, so it would not have been acceptable. Julia Sutton On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 eba-AT- umich.edu wrote: > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:30:07 -0400 (EDT) > From: Eric Arnold > Subject: Re: newcastle > In-reply-to: <009A8CD1.16662C22.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> > X-Sender: eba-AT- tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu > To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Message-id: > X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > > > On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote: > > > I used the playing cards as suggested and worked it through and was able > > to teach Newcastle successfully. One additional question came up though. > > It was suggested by someone to do Shaw siding in Part II, and that is my > > personal preference most of the time. However it isn't clear whether it > > should be right shoulder siding with the first person and left shoulder > > with the next, or the same shoulder with both or what. Does anyone have > > an opinion on this? (Need I ask) :-) > > Erna-Lynne Bogue has taught Newcastle in the Ann Arbor area and at > selected other places where there isn't an existing tradition with "Shaw > siding" right on the first one, then left the second. The honours that > follow similarly are to the right the first time, to the left the second. > It works quite nicely, I think, and if folks are well synchronized and > they don't go past each other, nice diagonal lines appear briefly and as > quickly vanish, which in my mind enhances the character of this dance > which already has a lot of play with dissolving one geometrical formation > and creating another. > > Eric Arnold > Ann Arbor > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:41:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:41:14 PST From: ebogue-AT- pdq.psc.lsa.umich.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8CEE.1DC72F5D.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:36:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Erna-Lynne Bogue Subject: Re: newcastle In-reply-to: <009A8CD3.BB8AF785.16-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT JB says, "If you're doing a historical dance, why don't you do it RIGHT?" in reference to siding in Newcastle. Odd argument when in fact, by these terms, almost all the ECD done in modern recreational circles is historically WRONG. We don't do the footwork. The clothing we wear drastically affect the ways we move as we do the dances, and is quite inauthentic. Ditto the shoes. We have instruments capable of providing a much more forceful rhythm and drive than was common at that time. We harmonize the tunes in ways which are quite definitely not authentic. We mix dance across a wide variety of time periods, something which probably did not occur before. By the 17th Edition of Playford, many of the dances from the 1st Edition were gone: already out of circulation. The short version of this is to say: we are pursuing a recreation which is based strongly in a historical dance form. It is no doubt worth striving to understand the original method of dancing as much as possible so as to derive greater enjoyment from our current dancing. In fact, I do favor side-by-siding in Newcastle. It does seem to be closer to the original intent. But my primary reason for teaching it is not that it is *correct* in some way, but that it seems much more asthetically pleasing. There are groups and individuals who participate in ECD primarily as a form of historical re-enactment. For those people, the arguments that something is the "original way" and "the right way" are in fact closely tied. For the rest of us, the link is not so automatic. Erna-Lynne Bogue ebogue-AT- umich.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:24:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:24:35 PST From: 71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8D04.EF894BF5.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: English Ceilidh dances Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:22:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Subject: English Ceilidh dances To: ECD list Message-id: <960924012233_71332.2116_GHL90-2-AT- CompuServe.COM> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I for one am sorry to see the ceilidh dance (traditional/tradirrational) thread dropped. 'allo, 'allo-- you blokes on the other side of the pond still out there? Anyway, can someone suggest some (written) sources for some of the more popular current ceilidh dances? That would be about 40% of the battle. Another 50% is getting the right band together (though with Susan Kevra, Bill Tomczek, Peter Barnes, Jack O'Connor, and some percussion playing friends we might be off to a good start). The last 10% is a caller who ought to know what he's doing... thus this post/request. Thanks, Gene Murrow EC Dancer and "wild and crazy guy" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:54:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:54:35 PST From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8D09.20B74FB6.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: English Ceilidh dances Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:55:17 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Subject: Re: English Ceilidh dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:22:34 -0400 (EDT) >From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> >Subject: English Ceilidh dances > >I for one am sorry to see the ceilidh dance (traditional/tradirrational) thread >dropped. 'allo, 'allo-- you blokes on the other side of the pond still out >there? > Hey Gene, were you at camp the year Roy Dommett was there? I have an enormous mimeo (yes, remember mimeo) of the dances he did in the barn dance class. If you're interested in seeing it, I can get a copy to you (for a small consideration of money, of course). Emily L. Ferguson - Cape Cod, Massachusetts Photographer, English Country Dance leader, weaver/spinner No matter which side of the fence you're on, the grass will always turn brown if you don't water it. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:09:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:09:53 PST From: c_marsh-AT- hamlet.uncg.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8D0B.43B21F3A.8-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Call for Papers - SDHS (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:09:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Carol G. Marsh" Subject: Call for Papers - SDHS (fwd) To: English Country Dance Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Please forward and post widely. Thank you. Also, please address email inquiries to the address below, rather than to me. Thanks. CALL FOR PAPERS The Society of Dance History Scholars Conference 1997 '79 / '97: Reflecting our Past, Reflecting on our Future Barnard College New York City June 19-22, 1997 In 1979 at a conference at Barnard College in New York City, the Society of Dance History Scholars was formed. In 1997 SDHS will return to Barnard in celebration of the breadth and vigor our field has achieved in the intervening years. The return to our organizational birthplace offers us an opportunity for reflection both on issues that have engaged the minds and bodies of our members since the origin of the Society, and on the broadening parameters of dance studies as we approach the 21st century. In order to display the full range of interests of our membership at this anniversary conference, the Program Committee welcomes submissions on a broad spectrum of topics within dance history and related disciplines. The open framework for the 1997 conference offers members exciting opportunities to propose panels or sessions on themes of their own devising. People with related interests are encouraged to come together to propose group sessions organized around a central topic. As always, the Program Committee also welcomes individual submissions. In both cases the Committee will aim to structure sessions in order to allow ample time for discussion and the exchange of ideas. The Committee is also interested in soliciting proposals for movement workshops and lecture-demonstrations. An innovation at the 1996 conference in Minneapolis was the formation of informal Working Groups that brought together different constituencies within the Society. This conference introduced the idea modestly with only two such groups, Early Dance and Ethnicity and Dance, but the experiment was so successful that the Board is eager to make such Working Groups a regular part of every conference. The Program Committee would therefore like to solicit ideas and organizers for other such interest groups. DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS: NOVEMBER 20, 1996 Please send five copies of each proposal, postmarked by November 20, 1996 to: Rebecca Harris-Warrick questions may be sent by mail or via Department of Music e-mail: rh14-AT- cornell.edu Lincoln Hall 607-255-7141 (o) Cornell University 607-254-2877 (fax) Ithaca, NY 14853-4101 607-257-0195 (h) Submitters will be notified by February 1, 1997. Program Committee: Rebecca Harris-Warrick (Cornell University), Chair; George Dorris (Dance Chronicle; City University of New York), Veta Goler (Spelman College), Ellen Graff (Barnard College), Marian Smith (University of Oregon) Guidelines for Proposals The Program Committee welcomes proposals in the categories listed below: Research papers Lecture-Demonstrations Workshops Panel discussions, roundtables, or other formats 1. Research Papers Research papers should be based on a topic of original research which has not been published previously. They should be designed to take no more than 30 minutes to present, including any audio-visual materials. Proposals may be submitted in one of two forms. Option A) an abstract of no more than two pages in length. The first paragraph should state the topic, research method or framework of analysis, and conclusion. Subsequent paragraphs should outline how the presentation is developed and describe type and amount of illustrative material, if used. A bibliography or statement of sources is required, which may require an additional page. Option B) a complete paper, submitted in the form in which it will be presented. The paper should include a bibliography. Students wishing to apply for the Selma Jeanne Cohen Young Scholars Program must submit a complete paper. Research papers may be submitted either individually or as part of a panel with a unifying theme. 2. Lecture-Demonstrations A proposal for a lecture-demonstration should include a complete description of the material to be covered, a bibliography of sources, and a statement of the time and space required. A lecture-demonstration may take from 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. If more than one presenter is involved, the proposal should outline the contribution of each person. 3. Workshops A proposal for a workshop should include a written description of the movement material, accompanied by a list of sources, a statement of the time and space required, and of appropriate attire for the participants. A workshop may not exceed 1 1/2 hours. 4. Panel discussions, roundtables, or other formats Those wishing to propose an entire panel, a round table discussion or a session that deviates from the traditional paper or lecture-demonstration format, should explain their idea and chosen format, the topic(s) to be discussed, and the desired length of time. The proposal should include a list of participants and a brief abstract of each person's intended contribution. All submissions should include a statement of audio-visual needs and, as relevant, statements of the amount of time requested, space requirements, and recommendations for attire. Submitters are encouraged to time their presentations in advance to make sure that they adhere to the time limitations. (Previous experience indicates that 12 double-spaced pages usually require about 30 minutes to present orally, with slides or overhead projections requiring 30-60 seconds each. Please guage your paper's length accordingly.) Only one submission is allowed per person. In order to be considered, proposals must conform to the guidelines and meet the deadline for submission. Note: all presenters must be members of SDHS or join before the conference, and must pay the registration fee for the conference. Submissions should be accompanied by a stamped (excepting foreign submissions), self-addressed postcard that will be used to confirm receipt of the proposal. Guidelines for the Selma Jeanne Cohen Young Scholars Program In recognition of Selma Jeanne Cohen's great contributions to dance history, the Society of Dance History Scholars inaugurated an award in her name at its 1995 conference. The program is intended to encourage graduate students by recognizing excellence in scholarship in the field of dance history. Up to three prizes will be offered at each conference. Each will consist of 1) an invitation to present a paper on one of the conference panels; 2) a waiving of the conference fee; 3) an award of up to $400 to assist the student's travel and other expenses. A student wishing to apply for the 1997 Selma Jeanne Cohen Award should submit his or her paper to the Program Committee, along with a cover letter asking that the paper be placed in competition. The full text of the paper, requiring no more than 30 minutes to present, must be submitted. It should be on a topic of original research and must include a bibliography. If the paper is accepted by the Program Committee, it will be sent to a separate SJC Award Committee, whose members will read it and rank the student's work. The papers will be adjudicated upon originality and excellence of research, plus clarity of writing. Students will be notified of the results of the award deliberations within one month of the acceptance of their papers. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:21:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:21:33 PST From: jmcewen-AT- hawaii.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8D15.46B8E010.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:20:55 -1000 From: Jan McEwen Subject: Re: newcastle In-reply-to: <009A8CE8.E63E6B4B.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> X-Sender: jmcewen-AT- uhunix5 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Julia wrote: > SIL is a poor term, because the significant thing is that those doing it > TOUCH SHOULDERS!! That is, it's a flirtatious interpersonal gesture in > which the head and eyes, of course, look to the other. Technically > speaking I'd call it 18th-c. siding (there's a 16th-c. type that's > highly flirtatious too, but different). When doing dances from 1651, we > don't know at present which one they used. But Sharp's invention is not So, Julia, what is the 16th-c. type? Jan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan McEwen, Department of Horticulture, University of Hawaii SCA: Catriona Stewart of the Glens, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid Internet: jmcewen-AT- hawaii.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:54:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:54:06 PST From: raymond-AT- belldans.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8D97.8D26550A.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: RE: Jack's the Lad Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 17:59:13 From: Raymond Wright Subject: RE: Jack's the Lad To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-to: raymond-AT- belldans.demon.co.uk Message-id: <50-AT- belldans.demon.co.uk> Organization: None X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU X-Mailer: Newswin Alpha 0.7 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lines: 12 I have been looking for instructions for the dance Jack's the Lad. Could anyone on this list help? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Raymond Wright EMail raymond-AT- belldans.demon.co.uk | | Morris Dancer and Bell-Ringer --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:54:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 12:54:19 PST From: jsutton-AT- world.std.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8D9F.F6FEB80C.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: newcastle Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:53:49 -0400 (EDT) From: julia s sutton Subject: Re: newcastle In-reply-to: <009A8D15.46B8E010.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jan: 16th "siding" is called for by Caroso and Negri. The partners approach and retreat from each other by turning their sides toward or away from their partners, while doing seguiti spezzati. The degree of turn is not specified. It would be easy to see it as it is done today in Spanish dance, or it could be done on a diagonal. In either case, though there is of course a geometic design involved, the purpose is clearly flirtatious. Caroso describes "fiancheggiare" in Nobilta di dame. Does his style apply in England? We don't know, but he gives the earliest known description of something called "siding." We tried it at Amherst, and I think people were intrigued. Julia On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 jmcewen-AT- hawaii.edu wrote: > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:20:55 -1000 > From: Jan McEwen > Subject: Re: newcastle > In-reply-to: <009A8CE8.E63E6B4B.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> > X-Sender: jmcewen-AT- uhunix5 > To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > Message-id: > X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Julia wrote: > > SIL is a poor term, because the significant thing is that those doing it > > TOUCH SHOULDERS!! That is, it's a flirtatious interpersonal gesture in > > which the head and eyes, of course, look to the other. Technically > > speaking I'd call it 18th-c. siding (there's a 16th-c. type that's > > highly flirtatious too, but different). When doing dances from 1651, we > > don't know at present which one they used. But Sharp's invention is not > > So, Julia, what is the 16th-c. type? > > Jan > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jan McEwen, Department of Horticulture, University of Hawaii > SCA: Catriona Stewart of the Glens, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid > Internet: jmcewen-AT- hawaii.edu > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:24:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:24:31 PST From: roby-AT- math.wisc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8DBD.5471D015.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: More Playford Dance Music Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:25:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Roby Subject: More Playford Dance Music In-reply-to: <9608058419.AA841940088-AT- labts.la.btsint.com> (MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <9609242325.AA05979-AT- conley.math.wisc.edu> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The well-respected early music group, the Baltimore Consort, has a CD out on Dorian (DOR-90238) called "A Trip to Killburn: Playford Tunes and Their Ballads". It has musically excellent renditions of a number of well-known tunes, and ballads for a few of them ("The French Report" to Nonesuch, "The Jovial Broome Man" to Jamaica.) The ballads alone make this CD worth having, even were it not for some excellent instrumentals. On the other hand, not all of the tunes are played in such a way that one would wish to dance to them. Since the version of Nonesuch is sung as a ballad, the rhythm sections backing (like a slow march) seems reasonable. But on "Trip to Killburn", which they play as a straight tune, the choppy guitar backing has a feeling of hesitation every measure which irritates my dance sensibilities. In the A part of "Jenny Pluck Pears" they leave out two measures compared with BarneSoft 1.0. I suppose some edition of Playford may be missing a repeat? Is there room for disagreement about whether the A should be 6 or 8 measures? I was impressed with the Baltimore Consort when I saw them live in Portland a couple of years ago. In that case I was unfamiliar with most of the music they played, but I greatly enjoyed the improvisational energy they brought to early music. I enjoy this CD too, but am probably a bit pickier about music I've listened to regularly for a decade. Tom Tom Roby Department of Mathematics metis-AT- math.wisc.edu University of Wisconsin [Off] 608-263-3971 480 Lincoln Drive [Fax] 608-263-8891 Madison, WI 53706-1388 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:24:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:24:36 PST From: roby-AT- math.wisc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8DBD.571331E7.12-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: More Playford Dance Music Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:25:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Roby Subject: More Playford Dance Music In-reply-to: <9608058419.AA841940088-AT- labts.la.btsint.com> (MMiller-AT- la.btsint.com) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <9609242325.AA05979-AT- conley.math.wisc.edu> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The well-respected early music group, the Baltimore Consort, has a CD out on Dorian (DOR-90238) called "A Trip to Killburn: Playford Tunes and Their Ballads". It has musically excellent renditions of a number of well-known tunes, and ballads for a few of them ("The French Report" to Nonesuch, "The Jovial Broome Man" to Jamaica.) The ballads alone make this CD worth having, even were it not for some excellent instrumentals. On the other hand, not all of the tunes are played in such a way that one would wish to dance to them. Since the version of Nonesuch is sung as a ballad, the rhythm sections backing (like a slow march) seems reasonable. But on "Trip to Killburn", which they play as a straight tune, the choppy guitar backing has a feeling of hesitation every measure which irritates my dance sensibilities. In the A part of "Jenny Pluck Pears" they leave out two measures compared with BarneSoft 1.0. I suppose some edition of Playford may be missing a repeat? Is there room for disagreement about whether the A should be 6 or 8 measures? I was impressed with the Baltimore Consort when I saw them live in Portland a couple of years ago. In that case I was unfamiliar with most of the music they played, but I greatly enjoyed the improvisational energy they brought to early music. I enjoy this CD too, but am probably a bit pickier about music I've listened to regularly for a decade. Tom Tom Roby Department of Mathematics metis-AT- math.wisc.edu University of Wisconsin [Off] 608-263-3971 480 Lincoln Drive [Fax] 608-263-8891 Madison, WI 53706-1388 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:59:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:59:18 PST From: bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8DC2.3079C712.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: English Ceilidh dances Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 23:16:45 +0000 From: Bob Archer Subject: Re: English Ceilidh dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <843603804.20469.0-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.30) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal > > I for one am sorry to see the ceilidh dance (traditional/tradirrational) thread > dropped. 'allo, 'allo-- you blokes on the other side of the pond still out > there? Still here, just taking a breather. > > Anyway, can someone suggest some (written) sources for some of the more popular > current ceilidh dances? That would be about 40% of the battle. Another 50% is > getting the right band together (though with Susan Kevra, Bill Tomczek, Peter > Barnes, Jack O'Connor, and some percussion playing friends we might be off to a > good start). The last 10% is a caller who ought to know what he's doing... thus > this post/request. I have had a quick trawl through my dance book collection and have come up with a few suggestions: The Community Dance Manuals have a number of suitable ceilidh dances in them along with music, the same can be said for the two Callers' Choice books ( the CDMs have been reprinted by CDSS I think ) Hugh Rippon has just brought out a new book called "The Willow Tree and other English Folk Dances" containing dances and tunes. Eddie Upton's book "Caedmon Capers" contains dances and music. "Ring O' Bells" country dance band have a number of books and tapes out with titles like "Square Dance Saturday Night" and "Barn Dance Saturday Night". They also publish a couple of books by Peggy Hazell ( I can't find them at the moment so I can't give you the titles ) which have a lot of useful material in. The Peeping Tom Tunebook has 63 original tunes in by two of the musicians from the ceilidh band "Peeping Tom". "Music for Australian Folk Dancing with Instructions" contains dances and music which are pretty much indistinguishable from the normal range of English ceilidh dances. Probably the best book to get hold of initially is "The Barn Dance Book" by John Reay also published by Ring O' Bells. It contains 65 dances with tunes. This is only a brief list, I haven't started on the many privately produced books and pamphlets that individual callers put out - I'm sure that Rhod can come up with a few I've missed. It's also late and I need some sleep so I'm not putting all of the bibliographic data on right now - if people are interested though I can post addresses of publishers etc. CDSS might stock some of these. I don't know how good mail order is from the EFDSS Folk Shop - perhaps someone else can comment. Alternatively if you ask me nicely enough I can bring some across when I visit Boston and Seattle at the end of November ( last time I brought 2 dozen diapers over to the States, this time it's dance books! ) The other good reference is Thomas Green's beginning callers web page at http://www.mrc-apu.cam.ac.uk/personal/thomas.green/BarnDances/ This has dance notations as well as information for callers. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- -- Bob Archer bob-AT- hottub.demon.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:08:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:08:01 PST From: cclark-AT- vicon.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8DED.50D50235.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: More Playford Dance Music Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 01:03:46 +0000 (GMT) From: cclark-AT- vicon.net Subject: Re: More Playford Dance Music X-Sender: cclark-AT- vicon.net To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609250103.BAA19187-AT- vicon.net> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >In the A part of "Jenny Pluck Pears" they leave out two measures >compared with BarneSoft 1.0. I suppose some edition of Playford may be >missing a repeat? Is there room for disagreement about whether the A >should be 6 or 8 measures? I don't think so. 8 measures fits the dance, and 6 doesn't. The one place where I know that those two measures were left out is in a *modern* edition of _The_English_Dancing_Master_. Those two measures are in Playford's first edition, and also in the seventh (there's a handy facsimile in _The_Playford_Ball_). I don't know whether they might have been omitted elsewhere, but I would hardly be surprised. There's a similar omission of two measures from the second strain of the tune in the seventh edition. Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 06:54:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 06:54:21 PST From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8E36.D7E0F1BE.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: RE: More Playford Dance Music Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:24:32 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: RE: More Playford Dance Music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <960925082432.6645-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "Jenny Pluck Pears" is a fun, problem for me. Most of the time the A-sec- tion is played too fast, the B-section too slow for my taste. As to the "Missing" two measures in A, that occurs in later appearances of the dance in Playford's Dancing Master. In a word, the 6-mesure A appears more often than the 8-measure A. Seems that ought to do it, right? Maybe! Omissions additions, and other kinds of errors are rampant through the Dancing Master Corpus. That's part of the editing challenge. Sharp chose the first edition version with the 8-measure A-section. It may not matter in the first figure, the slipping and turn single, as long as you know to stop after two measures, then set/turn single. The symmetry is destroyed, however, for the siding and arming, for these must become either 2/4 measure moves which fit the melodic phrasing, or 3/3 which fit the measures available while ignoring the musical phrasing. Bridgewater and Mellors in the 1930s transcription of what they think is the first issue, The English Dancing Master, have the six measure section a in "Jenny" which the cobbed from a later issue. Sometimes, in looking over their work, I'm fairly sure they consulted the first edition least of all. Another element, today we are used to 8-measure musical units, with perhaps a division of 4-measures and 4-measures for the half phrases too. Contras and traditional squares thrive on this structure. We're used to it, we expect it. One of the (to me) exotic elements of ECD is the use of non-8 measure phrasings. "Gathering Peascods," for example, uses 6-6-8 for its three sections of music. Sorry to be so long, but these kinds of alterations/accomodations have always fascinated. I remember hearing Hans David, one of the truly great Bach/ Baroque music specialists, saying in a public lecture that, to paraphrase, in music of the Baroque era, almost anything is possible. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:46:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:46:34 PST From: mls-AT- panix.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8E3E.237B0BC1.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Fourteen New Country Dances for 1791 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:48:20 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) Subject: Re: Fourteen New Country Dances for 1791 To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT At 1:35 PM 9/3/96, Howard Mitchell wrote: >I have come across three hand written sheets with a note at the top: > >'taken from a fan exhibited at Platt Hall (Manchester) 1964. Fan used >as aide memoire' > >The sheets are entitled 'Fourteen New Dances for 1791 with their >proper figures as performed at Court, Bath and all public Assemblys. > Published as the act directs by E Sucklow (or Scicllow or Swallow) >13th Decmber 1790' and contain music and brief description of nine >dances (not fourteen, perhaps there's a sheet missing). > >The dances are: > >Revolution de la France >The British Flag >Westminster Election >The Greenwich Pensioner >The Shrubery >Bucks of Europa >The Triple Alliance >The Ultimatum >Baroness Nagel's Fancy > Pat Woods [UK] has put out a recent pamphlet of these dances plus Amazonian Archers. There's an accompanying recording by Steve Hunt [Treglemeth, Dorchester Road, WOOL, BH20 6EL]. Perhaps they can help you. Good luck! Sharon Green ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:16:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:16:51 PST From: barbara.ruth-AT- yale.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8E42.5E89D108.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Baltimore Consort CD (was M Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:11:04 -0400 From: Barbara Ruth Subject: Baltimore Consort CD (was M To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.3 b1 d5 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reply to: Baltimore Consort CD (was More Playford Dance Music And on the subject of horse races, I agree that the CD in general is lovely, but I would have said, except for those stupid ballads. I find having to listen to them sung to be an extremely irritating interruption to what by themselves are exquisitely lovely tunes. Actually hearing the words to "The French Report" and "The Jovial Broome Man" once or twice is interesting as a novelty, but neither song has a lot to recommend them as ballads (i.e. a captivating story in song or especially beautiful lyrics) and they are both interminable. Let's face it, topical humor goes only so far even in its own time - satire from two or three centuries ago wears thin very quickly. The singer (Custer LaRue?) has a lovely voice, but given the nature of the songs there is no varying her expression and that "funny" phony accent in "The French Report" is especially grating. I am curious as to other folks' opinions on the subject. Any other "Trip to Kilburn" CD owners out there? Barbara Ruth -------------------------------------- The well-respected early music group, the Baltimore Consort, has a CD out on Dorian (DOR-90238) called "A Trip to Killburn: Playford Tunes and Their Ballads". It has musically excellent renditions of a number of well-known tunes, and ballads for a few of them ("The French Report" to Nonesuch, "The Jovial Broome Man" to Jamaica.) The ballads alone make this CD worth having, even were it not for some excellent instrumentals. ------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:43:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:43:18 PST From: ckoeppen-AT- VNET.IBM.COM Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8E80.BC756F87.2-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: More Playford Dance Music Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:43:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Koeppen Subject: Re: More Playford Dance Music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <01I9W2K1V8IW0000F0-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT George Forbes wrote: >"Jenny Pluck Pears" is a fun, problem for me. Most of the time the A-sec- >tion is played too fast, the B-section too slow for my taste. I thought the B section was supposed to be played same tempo as the A section, so 1 beat of the 6/8 A section is the same duration as 3 beats of the 3/4 B section. This seems most natural to me, is it wrong? >Another element, today we are used to 8-measure musical units, with perhaps >a division of 4-measures and 4-measures for the half phrases too. Contras >and traditional squares thrive on this structure. We're used to it, we >expect it. Add to this that almost every popular tune from the 1940's on uses this same structure and it's just as ingrained as if you grew up listening only to contradance music. Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:04:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:04:48 PST From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8E8C.1F31A027.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: More Playford Dance Music Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:04:00 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: More Playford Dance Music To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <960925190400.5b34-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Charlie: In "JPP" I think you're right about the 6/8 count equals the 3/4 count. My preference is for a bit more: two eighth notes in A-section (slightly less than a beat) equals two eighth notes (one beat) in the B-section. That's my preference, but it's based on my long-term exposure to the slow (!) version of the B-section I usually get. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:39:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:38:59 PST From: 71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8E99.47C28DF0.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Jack's Health Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 21:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Subject: Jack's Health To: ECD list Message-id: <960926013759_71332.2116_GHL42-1-AT- CompuServe.COM> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aha! The version of Jack's Health we do is by none other than Pat Shaw! (Just found this among the notes taken during Pat's 1974 visit to Pinewoods, while looking for something else, of course...) Jim Morrison did find/specify the Bolt the Door tune, as stated earlier. Gene Murrow EC Dance and keeper of all scraps of paper ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:37:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:37:51 PST From: 71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8EA1.807DD485.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: RE: More Playford Dance Music Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:34:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Gene Murrow <71332.2116-AT- CompuServe.COM> Subject: RE: More Playford Dance Music To: ECD list Message-id: <960926023445_71332.2116_GHL181-2-AT- CompuServe.COM> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Regarding the Jenny Pluck Pears A music vs. B music tempo/meter issue, John Forbes wrote: "In "JPP" I think you're right about the 6/8 count equals the 3/4 count. My preference is for a bit more: two eighth notes in A-section (slightly less than a beat) equals two eighth notes (one beat) in the B-section. That's my preference, but it's based on my long-term exposure to the slow (!) version of the B-section I usually get. Forbes" IMHO, John's right. A little more simply stated, his suggestion is "one measure in the B music equals one measure in the A", which I agree is the most pleasing relationship for dancing. It is also the "proportion" (3 beats in the time of 2) most commonly used in the Continental and English instrumental music of the time (canzonas, fantasias, etc.) which used both duple and triple meters within a single piece. If my memory serves me, there's even a technical term for this proportion-- "sesquialtera." (Sheila B.-- you out there?) Gene Murrow EC Dancer and proponent of universal understanding ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:59:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:59:07 PST From: ckoeppen-AT- VNET.IBM.COM Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8FDA.9A9C4619.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:45:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Koeppen Subject: Jenny Pluck Pears To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <01I9YUN0PMU20000OK-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I was playing around with what you guys (I think Gene and George) were saying about this tune and I don't agree yet. If I understood correctly you were saying the an eighth note in the 6/8 A section should be the same duration as an eighth note in the 3/4 B section, which would make a measure in the 6/8 A section the same duration of a measure of the 3/4 B section. Reasons why I disagree are: 1) It seems to me it would be awful hard for the dancers to find the beat in the B section. Either they have to keep plugging away at the same tempo trying to "feel" the 3 beats in the 3/4 melody against the 2 beats of their dance steps, or they have to change tempo. The 1st alternative here is very difficult and the 2nd is awkward. 2) The last 3 measures of the B section mimics the last 2 measures of the A section both in rhythm and melody if you make a quarter note of the 3/4 equal to an eigth note of the 6/8, which is the way I think it should go. If you do it your way the B section feels twice slower than the A section, which not only feels wierd, but makes the mimicry of the phrase endings meaningless. 3) The historical examples you gave don't quite convince me. Yes, I have run across 3/2 phrases stuck in between 6/8 phrases before, but not in country dance music. The only other place I can think of that has the 2 against 3 feel in English country dance music is the quarter note triplet in Shrewbury Lasses, but that tune is in cut time so to the dancers it is a 1 against 3 feel and pretty natural to modern dancers. 4) Making the quarter note of the 3/4 equal to an eighth note of the 6/8 (my way) makes the 3/4 comfortably fast with respect to a moderately tempo 6/8 A section. This takes care of the problem you guys were complaining about, namely a too fast A section and a too slow B section. I'm not sure what the manner of playing is that caused this problem which you say your way fixes, possibly a dotted quarter note of 6/8 being equal to a quarter note of the 3/4, which would make the B section *way* slow. But I personally can't see how anyone could ever do this and think that it's right. As it is with your way of doing it, I can possibly see thinking it's right because of historical reasons, but personally, I need some more evidence to start believing that something that sounds wrong is probably right. Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:05:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:05:04 PST From: herbwein-AT- intac.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A8FFC.F6613631.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:04:59 -0400 (EDT) From: herbwein-AT- intac.com Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears In-reply-to: <009A8FDA.9A9C4619.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609272004.QAA23579-AT- mailhost.intac.com> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit cancel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:42:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:42:10 PST From: cclark-AT- vicon.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9105.FC6E90FF.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:37:43 +0000 (GMT) From: cclark-AT- vicon.net Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears X-Sender: cclark-AT- vicon.net To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609282337.XAA26183-AT- vicon.net> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In response to Charlie's arguments for playing the B strain in Jenny Pluck Pears twice as fast (in terms of note values) as the A strain: 1) I've never noticed any dancers, even the ones who have hardly any rhythm, having serious trouble with the change in rhythm in the B strain. This is because there are very few steps (and no specific steps other than the honor) to be done, besides which only one dancer goes on dancing at the beginning of the B strain while the only step at the end is the honor. The usual problem is not matching the *phrases* of the music, but this happens when they are simply not familiar with the music and the dance, and would not necessarily be fixed by playing at any other tempo. 2) If you play the B strain twice as fast as the A strain (i. e. a quarter note in the B strain equals an eighth in the A), the music might not sound too hurried but the *dance* will be. Compare the honors in both of the other first-edition round dances for six (Kemps Jegg and Mundesse), which take two measures in 6/8. If you play the B strain that fast then the honors will be unusually hasty. The other figures are also fast enough at that tempo to "feel weird." As for the correspondence between the endings of the strains, it cannot possibly be necessary for variations on a tune to be played at exactly the same tempo. For example, the fast section of the Allemande from _Orchesographie_ by Arbeau is a variation on the slow part, but the tune that served for four doubles in the slow part is adapted for two doubles in the fast part. This means that a portion of the tune that accompanied two steps in the slow part has only one step in the fast part, while the tempo is apparently faster besides. But it is quite obvious that they are two variations of the same tune. 3) No matter how you slice it, Jenny Pluck Pears is not typical country dance music. To play the B strain as if it were four more measures in 6/8 is to ignore the question of why it wasn't written that way in the first place. 4) Some musicians play the B strain at a slow tempo that seems to be unrelated to the tempo of the A strain. I suppose they just love the B strain so much that they want to savor every note. Playing the tune with all eighth notes equal solves this problem. Playing the B strain much faster just trades one problem for an equal but opposite one. You are welcome to your opinion about how fast the B strain should be played, but please don't ever play it that fast for me. I probably won't even try to keep up. Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:29:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:29:14 PST From: zander-AT- pop.mhv.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A91CD.57F0C2FF.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:32:44 -0400 From: zander-AT- pop.mhv.net (Judith E. Zander) Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT signoff - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - Zander Universal Home Page: - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - [ in service to the unknowable & infinite ] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:57:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:57:16 PST From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9225.1461EB15.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:56:22 -0500 (CDT) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <960930085622.7820-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT One last note on "Jenny pluck Pears" I've stubbed my toe on this tune/dance at least three times on internet discussion lists. Each time it seems I'm at work, away from my sources, in a hurry (and, away from my sources). In the Mellor/Bridgewater edition of "The English Dancing Master" (I'm using the Dance Books Ltd. issue of 1984), Leslie Bridgewater handles the music. Pretty badly, too. First issued in 1933, this is a good picture of musical practices of then and before. I can hardly refer to this as musicological practices. Bridgewater leaves out measures three and four of the original, as I check it against my copy of the EDM. But he does get the B-section right. As previously reported, the music sections, A&B are 8/8 in the first edition and both issues of the second (1652/53) In both third editions and on through the 8th edition (1690) the sections are presented 8/6. As to the tempo relationship between A-section and B-section, I have tried to adopt a procedure more familiar to Renaissance music practices: A dotted half note in A equals a dotted half note in B. That way, you can assume an appropriate speed for the first part, then do the second as if handling quarter-note triplets, three pulses where you had two. Jazz and pop music performers today have this as common rhythmic vocabulary. I don't worry about the figures in the tempo change because dancers are being put in or taken out of the center of the circle. The dancer moving is the one who must make adjustments to the tempo, only one at a time. Can any of the musicologists/early music practice folks confirm or deny the use of proportion/meter change in the Renaissance continuing up into the Baroque? or is "Jenny" a Renaissance tune that didn't get changed? The spelling above is correct. In all appearances, the second word in the title starts lower case: "Jenny pluck Pears." So long Jenny, it's been good to know you again. Forbes/Baker ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:16:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:16:15 PST From: j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9227.BB5D3837.8-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:16:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609301416.JAA22502-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Not being much of a musician I can't really comment on the musicology of JPP, but as a dancer I think I can comment on the tempo change. It seems to me that the amount of movement in the B part is very limited and so the tempo is not as critical as in the A part where it needs to be an appropriate speed for dancing [not too fast, but not too slow either, just right ;-) ]. It also seems to me that this is a time for the band to join in the fun and play with the dancers, especially on the last time through. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:02:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:02:03 PST From: zander-AT- pop.mhv.net Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A923E.E463196A.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:05:14 -0400 From: zander-AT- pop.mhv.net (Judith E. Zander) Subject: Albany & Woodstock Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am a newcomer to this list. The list is not speaking to me, as of yet. Before I unsubscribe [successfully] I present a plea to it's members for ECDance information. I subscribed fully unaware that this was an intellectual insider musician's list. What I am hoping to find is a true Internet resource of English Country Dances _going on_ upstate NY and the surrounding areas (presumably, dances around the world as well, since this is the Internet). Are there other subscribers who have interest in this? Here are ones I am sure of: 1) Albany, New York, USA $5, 8-10pm at EBA, which is a center for dance and movement at 351 Hudson Ave., Albany (by Ben and Jerrys). It's got a great floor. Telephone: 518/489 7720. This dance goes on monthly, third Fridays; if interested 'e' the caller Don Bell (belld-AT- crisny.org) or call him at 518 489 7720 to verify the above information. 2) Woodstock, New York, USA $[forgot] Second Fridays, 7:30-10:30 p.m. at the rec. hall on Rock City Rd. in Woodstock. No experience or partner necessary. Info: Stewart Dean (music) 914 336 4815 or Howard Rust (callers) 914 657 6643. Thank you! - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - Zander Universal Home Page: - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - [ in service to the unknowable & infinite ] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:02:05 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:02:03 PST From: j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9247.46291561.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:01:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609301801.NAA03527-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT People subscribe to this list from all over the world. To merely use it to announce the regular monthly or weekly dances of your local area would seem to me to be a waste of this resource. This would be more appropriately done by a local or regional mailing list or a listing on the CDSS homepage. I haven't looked recently do they have the groups directory on-line (or will they in the future)? I run a mailing list for the Central Illinois English Country Dancers in which announcements of upcoming events are posted. The subscribers are those people interested in the day-to-day activities of our group. I think it would be very inappropriate for me to post those messages to this mailing list. A better use of this list is for discussions on the hows and whys of ECD music and dances, with the occasional when and where of special dances, which you might expect people to travel to a different state or country to attend (i.e. Playford Balls and dance weekends, etc.) My impression is that the list has been for the most part fulfilling it's charter. I've learned many new things, some from questions I have asked and some from questions others have asked, and I look forward to learning much more. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:55:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:54:59 PST From: pstamler-AT- crl.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9257.0D2F79ED.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances In-reply-to: <009A923E.E463196A.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Cc: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 zander-AT- csbh.mhv.net wrote: > I am a newcomer to this list. The list is not speaking to me, as of yet. > Before I unsubscribe [successfully] I present a plea to it's members for > ECDance information. > > I subscribed fully unaware that this was an intellectual insider musician's > list. To what, precisely, are you referring? As far as I know, this list is essentially unmoderated, and open to discussion of any and all ECD-related topics, from timing and chording to basketballs. However, you do have a point that we've not had much posting of information about whens and wheres. Perhaps one participant from each city could post information about their home dance. I'll start: St. Louis English Country Dancers meet for dances on the second and fourth Monday of every month, at 7:30 pm in the church hall of St. Augustine's Episcopal Church, corner of Bruno and Blendon (7039 Bruno; that's one block N of Manchester, 2 blocks W of McCausland). There are also workshops on the first Monday of every month; same time, place, etc...basically regular dances with more teaching and style points. There is an annual Playford Ball, a Christmas Ball (we think!) and a performing troupe. Live music by the Speckled Band; callers Carol Luer & Jeff Sadler. Contact person: Kevin Keach, 314-427-0108. For info about dances not found here, try the CDSS directory. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:27:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:27:44 PST From: j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A925B.A07D0AA9.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:27:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <199609302027.PAA10613-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> X-Envelope-to: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'll follow Paul's example. The Central Illinois English Country Dancers meet monthly at the Springer Recreation Center in Champaign, IL. We'll have a Christmas Ball on Saturday, December 21 and a Playford Ball in June. The dates, times and places do vary, so contact me for further information on our schedule. Music is provided by the Flatland Consort and instruction is by myself, Jane Hobgood, Susan Burt and others. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:31:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:31:05 PST From: mls-AT- panix.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A925C.1829AB1B.18-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:33:42 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Sharon Green) Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >Before I unsubscribe [successfully] I present a plea to it's members for >ECDance information. Given your location, you'll probably find the following useful: Country Dance * New York [NYC] http://www.panix.com~cdny; email: cdny-AT- panix.com The Dance Gypsy [newsletter for Northeast region] http://pages.prodigy.com/dancegypsy/ email: dancegypsy-AT- prodigy.com You also want to become a member of the Country Dance & Song Society, 17 New South Street, Northampton MA 10060, and get the annual guide to groups all over the US. Don't necessarily give up on the list--the chatter's not always so rarefied, and there are good folks all over the world to link up with. Happy dancing-- Sharon Green (Occasional caller at Woodstock and ECD Flak [in the Gene Murrow tradition] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:36:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:36:36 PST From: mls-AT- panix.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A925C.DD653896.23-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:39:20 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Sharon Green) Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Judith: Correction on the CDSS ZIP code: 01060. Cheers, Sharon Green Fumble-fingered typist and ECD flake/flak/fluke [NOT in the Gene Murrow mode....:-)] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:05:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:05:00 PST From: rcohen-AT- alewench.engr.sgi.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9260.D562FA26.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:04:55 -0700 From: Robin Cohen Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances In-reply-to: j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu "Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances" (Sep 30, 11:02am) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <9609301404.ZM15855-AT- alewench.engr.sgi.com> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <009A9247.46291561.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Reading and posting to the newsgroup rec.folk-dancing (for those with internet access) is also a good way to get information on dances of all kinds around the world. Seems like that would also be a good place for the discussion on whether ECD is folk dance or not. -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Robin Cohen, DMS Admin. phone - 415-933-1368 Silicon Graphics, Inc. fax - 415-967-8496 M/S 9U-505 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:07:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:07:33 PST From: mls-AT- panix.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A9261.30514F28.22-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:10:15 -0400 From: mls-AT- panix.com (Sharon Green) Subject: Re: Albany & Woodstock Dances X-Sender: mls-AT- panix.com (Unverified) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT At 1:27 PM 9/30/96, j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu wrote: > I'll follow Paul's example. I know a bandwagon when I see one.... Country Dance * New York holds English dances on Tuesday evenings from 7:00-10:15pm, September - June, at Metropolitan Duane Church, 201 West 13th Street, off Seventh Avenue, New York City. That's the same hall where May Gadd and Genevieve Shimer taught English country dancing back when CDSS was still located in New York City. Our current teachers are: Beverly Francis, Yonina Gordon, Bertha Hatvary, Fried Herman, Gene Murrow, and Paul Ross. We hold experienced English dances on occasional Friday nights (currently 3rd Fridays), special events: True Brit fundraising weekend, Columbus Day weekend in alternate years (next True Brit, October 1997); Yuletide Cotillion in December (this December 8, 3-6pm, with Helene Cornelius & Bare Necessities); plus a Playford Ball in April (19 April 1997, Gene Murrow & Yonina Gordon, MCs, and Earl Gaddis, Ros Morley, Jessica Murrow, and Bill Peek as the band). Our dance phone is (212) 459-4080. This October 11-12 we're having a 2-day mini-festival consisting of a Friday night dance with Gene Murrow and Jacqueline Schwab followed by an all-day music & dance & songfest with Scottish and Scandinavian and ritual dancing and great concerts, plus a family dance that should be great fun. For more details, call me at (212) 741-5192 or email me off-list. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:08:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:08:53 PST From: ckoeppen-AT- vnet.IBM.COM Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <009A929C.0C63BD3B.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:27:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Koeppen Subject: Re: Jenny Pluck Pears To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-id: <01IA3QZSCMHW0001GV-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Alex Clark wrote: >3) No matter how you slice it, Jenny Pluck Pears is not typical country dance > music. To play the B strain as if it were four more measures in 6/8 is to > ignore the question of why it wasn't written that way in the first place. The B section isn't 6/8. The 6/8 section consists of 2 measure sub-phrases, each of these building tension and releasing it. So does the 3/4 section. If the 3/4 section were written in 6/8 the sub-phrases in it would be 1 measure each, and 1 measure sub-phrases aren't typical anywhere that I know of. > You are welcome to your opinion > about how fast the B strain should be played, but please don't ever play it > that fast for me. I probably won't even try to keep up. Don't worry, you've convinced me with the other stuff you wrote. Thanks for the input. Charlie