Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 18:08:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 18:08:38 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Administrivia: Getting a digest version of the ECD list To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099EF10.6869932E.25-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- I've had a couple of requests to get a DIGEST version of this list, where all the messages are bundled together every so often and sent out as one message. I've done what was needed to make this work, so you can do it if you choose. To get the digest version, send mail to ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU with the body SET DIGEST To get the undigested version, send mail to the same place, with the body SET NODIGEST Do NOT send this command to ECD. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 18:30:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 21:30:11 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Sounding Period? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603070232.VAA20227-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:15:45 -0800, Ray Price wrote: | Toby Koosman wrote: | | >Do people think we should try to sound period at all? | | I think that sounding period is wonderful in its place and I would never | want groups who perform 'authentically' to change. IMHO, if the dance | form is to be relevant to future generations, there is a need for us to put | ourselves (this time frame) into it. I am perplexed. One the one hand, my traditional musician side says that traditions should grow in order to prosper. And, it is exciting to watch the evolution of traditional music, particularly, for me, Celtic music. On the other, I remember a Greek teacher (Bill Arrowsmith a long time ago) pointing out that the essence of a culture is expressed in those words which are quite literally not translateable to terms in current language/culture (and that when they are translated carelessly, essence is lost). I also have a great love for Baroque and early musics performed on authentic instruments in an authentic style; and I cannot stand [for instance] Bach played by a large contemporary orchestra in a Romantic style, and especially sung with vibrato. This leaves me perplexed, or perhaps schizophrenic. My only useful thought is that it is at least important to *distinguish* between older dances done in an authentic style and those done in a contemporary style. Which is better is a personal preference item. For me, authentic performance by a demonstration troupe is preferable to multi-century mush stylizing. As a participative form, I am less clear but believe that (at a minimum) dancers should know what is authentic and what isn't--and then do what they enjoy most. David Marcus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 00:58:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 00:48:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Toby Koosman wrote: > So, how should we harmonize? Do we know what's "period"? Would that mean > sparser? One of the dances we do, Beggar Boy (or is it Jovial Beggar? It's > the one in Phrygian mode) I feel strongly should have no chording at all. > > Are people familiar with Nicholas Broadbridge's playing? I have dots to the > tunes on his Walsh recording (provided by Nicholas), which are harmonized > even more densely--way too many chord changes sometimes. But I play the > squeezebox and find his interpretation a better model for me than Bare > Necessities. > > Do people think we should try to sound period at all? Bare Necessities (or > Marshall Barron) sound, too me, Romantic, not Baroque; and Broadbridge > sounds 19th C. Steve Hickman's playing sounds like contemporary contra. > Are there other interpretations out there that any of you prefer (or despise)? Our dance band in St. Louis, the Speckled Band, takes a good deal of its inspiration from British folk revival performers, i.e. Martin Carthy & Nic Jones's guitar techniques, and Sue Harris's woodwind playing. One of our regulars has a backgroound in orchestra playing (interestingly enough, she is by far our best improviser), another in Irish music. It's a hodgepodge in a sense, but it's an effective one. And I think the styles themselves are not "authentic" in any literal sense (after all, British folk revival guitar techniques come from a cross between classical guitar and African-American blues!), but the very cross-pollinated nature of the playing is authentic. As Alistair Anderson once put it after a few beers, "The same musicians would play for the laird's dance in the hall after dinner, then go down the hill and play tunes for the lads in the pub. If they did both, they could scrape out something of a living." I think we preserve that sense of a cross between gentrified and vernacular music. In a more refined way, I get that same sense from the Broadside Band. > Is ECD a contemporary dance or historical recreation? If it's a historical re-creation (we need the hyphen), it's of necessity an extremely inaccurate one. Too much information has been lost for us to be able to reconstruct it accurately. (My $.02.) Regarding instrumentation, it has always seemed to me that the authentic instrumentation for ECD has always been "whatever the popular bands are playing right now". So in the 1800s it was small orchestras, in the 1920s it was saxophones and trap sets. Taking that to its logical end, the Albion Band's electric-guitar-and-bass experiments in the 1970s were sociologically perfectly authentic. These days, I guess it would be synths. Peace while opening up more cans of worms. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 02:36:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 02:38:38 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I21HV4ZFZM003E46-AT- UG.EDS.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Toby Koosman wrote >> Some criticize the (contra inspired?) American emphasis on eye contact; >> others prefer it. (Any brits on this list?) Yes - me! Here goes with standard essay on pondside differences. Firstly you (i.e. Americans) say 'English Country Dance' where we (English) would say 'Playford'; in general if we talk about Country Dance we tend to mean Virginia Reel or whatever -- dances done by country folk. This means that you ask English people for authoritative interpretation of Playford dances, and since I have no more experience of England 300 years ago that you I don't feel in a good position to give that advice. I think that there is a cultural difference that Americans tend to take things more seriously than us, but for shorter periods -- as a sweeping generalisation they tend to have fits of enthusiasm. This shows up in dancers where most English dance clubs have a stronger social element, and less emphasis on dance than the American equivalent. The result is that here people are aware of the concept that they should look at their partner, but frequently ignore it; Americans have been taught the concept and follow the teaching to the letter -- possibly ignoring the spirit. Since you ask; I prefer the American version. Being fussy I would prefer something that didn't give the impression of having been drilled in -- that people were looking at me out of delight in my company rather than out of instructions for how to do the dance. I should also note that if someone goes to the effort of finding a foreign dance to go to then they must have some degree of enthusiasm for dancing -- in other words the foreign dancers we see will, on average, be 'better' than the local ones. Hence I see American dancers in general as being better dancers than English ones, but it is quite possible that you see exactly the opposite. The other part of the standard essay on pondside differences is that you tend to have 'English' dance on the one hand and 'American' (read Contra) on the other; we tend to have 'Country Dance' clubs which mix the two. The result is that you emphasise the differences and do Playford dances slower than us, and Contra dances faster (well, actually I mean 'more energetically' -- contras without swings are quite acceptable here and those with three swings are sometimes called as an example of how ridiculous things can get). Hugh Stewart Cambridge, England ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 04:36:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 07:35:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: BANDS AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: bands and harmony and other things (and i was planning on just being a lurker on this list. oh, well): as a musician, i love hearing bands who can play with the music and make it interesting. we have some wonderful musicians in the baltimore-washington area who can really run with it, and they love it when we notice. just hearing the bare melody (as some seemed to be suggesting) would be pretty darn boring, altho it's effective when it's done judiciously. as a dancer, however, i love hearing those bands do all that without losing the phrasing or the essence of the melody. our dances are more bound to a particular melody than, say, contras, so it's much more important to be able to figger out where we are. the best musicians are those who manage to give us both variety and steadiness. i love bare necessities, but they're difficult to dance to. give me liz donaldson, david wiesler, marty taylor, and many, many more. as for the authenticity question, if you're in a performance group specializing in a certain era of dance, it's all well and good to try to have a consistent style, although nobody really can decipher those old written directions. maybe it's a GOOD thing there were no camcorders back then, or the folk process might have died out long ago. and i suspect that one reason we call it ECD in the US is that we mix our metaphors; we do playford dances, and pseudo-playford dances, and newly-composed dances (send me an SSAE and i'll send you mine), and community dances, with maybe a viennese waltz or scandinavian hambo thrown in at break-time. so it makes good sense not to call all of that playford. i'll shut up now. enjoy... p.s. no, i never use caps. i'm a bad enuf typist as it is. sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not an official typist for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:06:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:04:59 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: BANDS AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603071404.AB04972-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sharon McKinley wrote, i suspect that one reason we call it ECD in > the US is that we mix our metaphors; we do playford dances, and > pseudo-playford dances, and newly-composed dances (send me an SSAE > and i'll send you mine), and community dances, with maybe a > viennese waltz or scandinavian hambo thrown in at break-time. so > it makes good sense not to call all of that playford. I believe we call it country dancing because C# did. If I've got this story straight, he started out collecting traditional social dances--those done in living memory--and then became interested in Playford-era dances, which he began to include in his publications of "country dances", continuing to call it that even when historic dances predominated in his collections and revival efforts. A lot of confusion is wrought by failing to recognize a distinction between "historic" and "traditional". We inherited Playford from a Victorian era revival, and reformed it both in light of new historical interpretation and the contemporary contra dance "revival" (which itself owes less and less to either tradition or history). What kind of animal does that leave us with? Should we agonize over that classification? It's taken on its own life, and let's not kill it by forcing it to declare an identity. I think we all have a sensibility that certain innovations or interpretations feel "true" and others "false", either because they violate the integrity of the thing or because they are artificially, self-consciously "historic"--that is, you can err by being too modern or too period alike. I'm speaking both to the dance and the music. I agree that those who want to create a credible historic performance should take as much care to get the music right as the dancing. I would be very interested to hear a historically faithful interpretation--but I would not necessarily adopt historical practice in my own playing. Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:07:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:13:35 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Toby Koosman recently wrote: >So, how should we harmonize? Do we know what's "period"? For those who are interested in a "period" sound for the 1st edition Playford dances, please get yourself a copy of Bernard Thomas's 4-part arrangements now available (or at least Vol. 1 is) from the distinguished early music publisher London Pro Musica. These are Bernard's own arrangements, following the period style of dance collections from the early and mid-17th c., and IMHO as a professional early musician and dancer he's done a A+++ job. The music is easy to read, easy to play and simple enough to not get in the way of dancing (unlike other arrangements which Toby mentioned). It is easy to add simple ornamentation for the (endless) repetitions needed to do a dance (one or more times); and those of you who can read short score in the fly can reduce the 4-parts to chord patterns as needed. I know it's distributed by MagnaMusic (Sharon CT), and can be ordered through your local music store. The Early Music Shop of New England (aka The von Huene Workshop) is on line at vonhuene-AT- world.std.com; others are probably out there but I don't have their references handy (besides, Eric and I e-mail each other about 5x a day!). I don't remember the price and am guessing somewhere between $7-10. I've told my students to GET IT NOW! You should, too! Cheers! Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:40:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:41:51 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960307084151.19d5-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If you are going to make all that effort to get the steps as correct as possible, the costumes at least a reasonable facsimile of the period, even the decorations around the dance area (here, I have access to a late 17th century room, originally part of an English manor house), why cheat on the music of the period. Although Playford is at least 95% solo instrument lines (not counting things with a 'ground' or the inherent round in Christ Church Bells[sp.?]), we know of many period harmonizations of these tunes ("Hole in the Wall" is a particularly good example.) Would you be interested in, say, one or two violins or flutes (or one of each) for the melody/harmony/countermelody chores, a 'cello for the bass line and a harpsichord for the fill-in, extemporized harmony? What could put us in a better, cheerful, "now we got it all right" mood? Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:54:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:59:58 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Sharon, you wrote: > as for the authenticity question, if you're in a performance > group specializing in a certain era of dance, it's all well and > good to try to have a consistent style, although nobody really can > decipher those old written directions. As a EM performer and student of historical dance (I came to ECD from Ren court dance), I would strongly disagree. While the instructions in Playford don't tell you when to do a specific foot pattern (the instructions give geography telling you where to go, not how to get there!), I think it is possible to dance the 17th & 18th c. dances with an awareness and with an application of historical step patterns. Perhaps others with better knowledge of historical dance sources can provide more information. I am now working with Julia Sutton on a new edition of Lorin's dance MS (French) with complete footwork details of many English dances he observed in the last quarter of the 17th c. I can share more as I know it, but this MS does give unbelievably detailed instructions for hands and feet. Regards, Sheila B Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 07:18:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Authenticity etc. To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi all! (Lots of familiar names here!) Thanks, Sheila, for the note about the London Pro Musica editions; they will be very welcome. What puzzles me is the prominence of "should" in some of the queries; eg "what should we (they) do for [fill in blank here]?" As a necessarily imperfect re-construction, the dance & music both suffer from a lack of sufficient knowledge to enable us to re-create them in a manner which would not seem somewhat strange if the event were somehow to be translated temporally back to the era when it was commonly done. One of the things that is fun to do with this material, and for some people more than others, depending on their interests, is to try to discover as many details as possible about how things really were done, and to capture as much of that spirit as possible in the re-creation. That is certainly a legitimate way to enjoy this music and dance. As someone who was on the fringes of the early music movement which started up in earnest in the 60's, I appreciate this. At the same time it is clear that the essential spirit of any age is embodied in what is happening in a culture at that time, and what we do today has as much legitimacy as whatever people did in 1650 or 1728 or whatever, in a sense: what we find fun to do, for for our own innocent pleasure, so far as it is consistent with the values of our own time, has the same kind of contemporary legitimacy that we sometimes would like to re-create for other periods. In other words, ALL of the things we like to do with the various forms of ECD which people find fun to do have some kind of place. We don't have to like them all, or restrict ourselves to one form. It is nice to distinguish between the differences, too, but even that isn't required for the enjoyment of them by some of us. However, the enjoyment is required if it is to continue to be a living tradition, which it truly is in that there is evidence that at least some of the dances that can be traced to the Playford era apparently have been in the active dance tradition continuously from then to the present time (e.g. Black Joak), with CS's revivial of interest in the traditional dances coming at precisely the right time to preserve this thread. The main point is that there needs to be room for more than one approach. Historical accuracy is sufficiently difficult to limit what one can do to a much smaller body of material than what we currently enjoy, and I would be loath to discard many wonderful dances simply because they are imperfect reconstructions of earlier ones. At the same time, I feel that it is important to recognize that we are not doing historical reconstruction when we are not, and not try to pass it off as historical either deliberately or accidently. Further, as has been realized in early music, there is MUCH to learn & to enjoy from the work of those who concentrate on historical reconstruction, and it would be folly to ignore this in dance. But we know that in the Playford era itself, it was a living tradition, & what was done at one place & one time was not the same as what was done ten miles away ten years later. Comment to the Brits: In my experience as an American "English Country Dancer", over here ECD doesn't map to Playford, but to Playford+Traditional+Contemporary English, and is distinguished from contra. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:29:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 11:27:14 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603071627.AB06100-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lest anyone feels I am against historic performance (and I have received some email to that effect), let me clarify that the Barnes' book, which provoked my comments, is a fakebook for musicians working the contemporary social ECD scene. I would expect anyone interested in period arrangements to look elsewhere. I apologize if I come off sounding as though no one should dance Playford or play Playford for reasons other than social recreation. I just assume that because the topic is Peter's book--clearly a timely topic for this list--we are speaking for a certain dance culture and its needs. Mea culpa if that is taken as discouragement to discussion of historic dance. Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:43:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Authenticity etc. To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Eric Arnold wrote: [plenty of stuff that I agree with snipped] > Comment to the Brits: In my experience as an American "English Country > Dancer", over here ECD doesn't map to Playford, but to > Playford+Traditional+Contemporary English, and is distinguished from contra. Depends where you are. In St. Louis, it *does* map to PLayford, with a few recent dances in Playford style; none of our callers is working on traditional dances. Pity, since they're good dances with great tunes, and adding them would give a broader perspective on this hybrid cultural form. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:57:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:01:09 -0500 (EST) From: morganj-AT- indyunix.iupui.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: HUGH-AT- edsug.com CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just caught Toby's mention of eye contact, and thought she'd got it upside down: all the emphasis I've had on eye contact has come from CDSS teachers, and is derived from the way they and EFDSS teach. It comes through a lot in their dance material and I think dates back to Sharp. I haven't seen much emphasis on it among contra callers, although now that the gypsy figure has been brought into contras there may be more attention paid to eye contact. Jim Morgan morganj-AT- indyunix.iupui.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:13:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:07:21 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603072314.SAA19149-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:59:58 +0100, Sheila Bosworth wrote: | Hi Sharon, you wrote: | | > as for the authenticity question, if you're in a performance | > group specializing in a certain era of dance, it's all well and | > good to try to have a consistent style, although nobody really can | > decipher those old written directions. | | As a EM performer and student of historical dance (I came to ECD from Ren | court dance), I would strongly disagree. | | While the instructions in Playford don't tell you when to do a specific foot | pattern (the instructions give geography telling you where to go, not how to | get there!), I think it is possible to dance the 17th & 18th c. dances with an | awareness and with an application of historical step patterns. | Actually, some of the dances in Playford were written down in Beauchamps/Feuillet notatation in the Receuil de Contredances (1706), two that come to mind are The Female Saylor/La Matellote and Lilliburlero/La Lirboulaire. From these you can get very precise indications of the steps that would have been used for these dances and others like them--at least at the turn of the century. I also heartily disagree, that "nobody really can decipher those old written directions". I've been doing Renaissance and Baroque dance for years, and feel comfortable both with the French and English Renaissance sources, and with Baroque sources in B/F notation. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 17:38:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:39:10 -0500 (EST) From: Erna-Lynne Bogue Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Steps, Authenticity and the like To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think the basic question a dancer, and dance leader, needs to ask is: what am I doing this for? If the intent is to re-create the sense of the original, to have something of the experience that people did at the time the dances were originally done, it *IS* possible to do that. But, as folks have pointed out, it requires not only "authentic" music but also learning a set of steps, re- interpreting dances from original instructions, learning/re-creating particular styles of steps (which are not immediately easy for the general person-on-the-street to pick up). To really re-create the feeling, one could go so far as to dance in poorly heated and poorly lit rooms without amplification, and of course with no one to prompt the dances. And I'm sure that there is a real joy that could be had in such an endeavor, although it's never been one that tempted me. The other path is to take the tunes, and the patterns, and interpret them in ways which are fun and approachable to modern people. When one starts to do this, there is a continuum of how much "adapting" to do, and how far one goes is a matter of taste. I once saw what purported to be Scottish country dancing at the Minnesota Ren Faire. It was a romp much more like the rowdiest of English village dancing than anything the RSCDS would recognize. In my eyes, these folks had gone "too far" in adapting. But for the crowd of spectators, the bawdy fun was exactly what they wanted, while the more sedate, elegant English country dancing we did seemed less fun. As Eric pointed out quite a while back, the constant use of the word "should" implies that the person using it has some standard against which to compare various options. Most of us do -- and rarely do we take the steps to clarify it for ourselves, much less state it openly so we all know what the options are. Erna-Lynne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | "To enjoy a thing exclusively is commonly to exclude yourself | | from the true enjoyment of it." Thoreau | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | Erna-Lynne Bogue / Univ of Michigan / ebogue-AT- umich.edu | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:28:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:24:57 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: "Bonnets So Blue" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099EFEC.9D805908.13-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT [Reposted since there are twice as many people on the list now as when I posted it first, and it didn't get any response the last time.] Folks -- "Bonnets So Blue" has one of my favorite tunes, and should be a dead easy dance. (From memory: This is in the Community Dances Manual, and is just Right hands across, left hands back 1s take two hands and slip down the center and back to 2nd place, 2s moving up (prgsv) In ballroom hold, 1s and 2s dance round other couple ending in progressed place. Feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.) When I actually try this, it seems like there's an awful lot of music for the slip-down-the-center-and back, and dancers tend to pile up at the bottom of the set. Is this merely a feature of the dance, or is it something that should be fixed? (If the dancers are in the right mood, it's fun in itself, but not very tidy.) Should we be taking little teeny slips? (Not very satisfying.) Is there some convention for where the 1s should go when they fall out the bottom of the set, remembering that they need to stay in order or risk messing up the progression? Also, for dancing round the other couple, is there a good alternative to the polka step? The music is a jig in 6/8, not polka time (2/4), although you can make a polka fit it. A tangentially related anecdote: I recently called this dance at a cast party for a Christmas show consisting mostly of singers with little or no country dance experience (and many of them several sheets to the wind). I was surprised that the most difficult thing was getting the 1s to stop when they got back below the 2s, rather than going all the way back to place, and ended up instructing the 2s to stop their 1s and keep them from going too far, which worked. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 03:54:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 06:53:55 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603081153.GAA06815-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >... >I also heartily disagree, that "nobody really can decipher those old written >directions". I've been doing Renaissance and Baroque dance for years, and >feel comfortable both with the French and English Renaissance sources, and >with Baroque sources in B/F notation. > >Peggy In the case of the music, I was at a flute Masterclass with Peter Lloyd, a year ago, where he discussed the interpretation of this music. Since there are no recordings from this period, musicians are even more at a loss when it comes to recreating the sounds. But after many years of playing the old scores, today's musicians have discovered that only certain phrasings make musical sense. Thus they have "learned" the old style just by playing the notes so many times, that they have rediscovered the old musical phrases. Maybe the same thing will happen if you do the dances often enough? - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 06:38:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:44:06 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Boy, how to keep this straight?! Peggy Marcus zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) added to my reply to Sharon... >In email on Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:59:58 +0100, Sheila Bosworth wrote: >| While the instructions in Playford don't tell you when to do a specific foot >| pattern (the instructions give geography telling you where to go, not how to >| get there!), I think it is possible to dance the 17th & 18th c. dances >with an >| awareness and with an application of historical step patterns. >| >Actually, some of the dances in Playford were written down in >Beauchamps/Feuillet notatation in the Receuil de Contredances (1706), two >that come to mind are The Female Saylor/La Matellote and Lilliburlero/La >Lirboulaire. Thank you, Peggy, of course I should have mentioned the R. de Contredances! Thank you for covering my lapse! I think I did mention that I am working with Julia Sutton on a late 17th c. French MS which includes VERY detailed patterns with footwork and hands for many of the popular early ECD. I've only just begun, and I'm sure Julia will want to let folks know about it. It's about a year from completion. Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 06:46:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:52:46 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown replied to Peggy Marcus: >In the case of the music, I was at a flute Masterclass with Peter Lloyd, a >year ago, where he discussed the interpretation of this music. > >Since there are no recordings from this period, musicians are even more at >a loss when it comes to recreating the sounds. But after many years of >playing the old scores, today's musicians have discovered that only >certain phrasings make musical sense. > >Thus they have "learned" the old style just by playing the notes so many >times, that they have rediscovered the old musical phrases. Maybe the same >thing will happen if you do the dances often enough? Whoops?! Maybe I missed something here .. Walter, are you talking about people playing period instruments in period style? modern instruments in period style? some instruments in any old style? There are PLENTY of places to go to study historical performance practice for instrumental and vocal music of the Renaissance and Baroque -- even the early Classical periods. Watch out, the HIP (awful acronym for "Historically Informed Performance) world is about to take over Brahms and Schubert, too. Please, Walter, could you explain what you mean by your statements? I must have missed your point totally. Thanks, Sheila B Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 07:40:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:40:32 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603081540.KAA12465-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Whoops?! Maybe I missed something here .. Walter, are you talking about >people playing period instruments in period style? modern instruments in >period style? some instruments in any old style? > >There are PLENTY of places to go to study historical performance practice >for instrumental and vocal music of the Renaissance and Baroque -- even >the early Classical periods. Watch out, the HIP (awful acronym for >"Historically >Informed Performance) world is about to take over Brahms and Schubert, too. > >Please, Walter, could you explain what you mean by your statements? I >must have missed your point totally. > >Thanks, > >Sheila B Recreating old dances and old music is much the same problem. The information, which has come down to us, is enough to tell us approximately what they did, but not enouph for us to easily imitate them. To imitate dance, you really need to see a video, and for music we need to hear a tape. The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. The people who rediscovered the old musical phrases have been playing period instruments. But what they have learned can be readily transfered to modern instruments. The person who explained this, Peter Lloyd, is a Professor of Flute in Great Britain, and one of the top flute (modern Boehm system) teachers in the world. In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:27:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 12:33:26 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Whither Steps... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown to me: >>Whoops?! Maybe I missed something here .. [snip in my own post] >>Please, Walter, could you explain what you mean by your statements? I >>must have missed your point totally. >Recreating old dances and old music is much the same problem. The >information, which has come down to us, is enough to tell us approximately >what they did, but not enouph for us to easily imitate them. To imitate >dance, you really need to see a video, and for music we need to hear a >tape. > >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > >The people who rediscovered the old musical phrases have been playing >period instruments. But what they have learned can be readily transfered >to modern instruments. The person who explained this, Peter Lloyd, is a >Professor of Flute in Great Britain, and one of the top flute (modern >Boehm system) teachers in the world. > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. OK, I'm going to take a deep breath, and count to, oh, about a million. Back in the old days (1978) when I did my graduate work in performance of early music at New England Conservatory I learned lots of things about EM performance. I unlearned lots of things about playing modern instruments. I learned that old and new often times don't agree. I have also found that many many things which come quite naturally to me perhaps *because* I've been playing early instruments for so long (recorders, historical flutes -- never did the silver flute thing -- viols and keyboard) and because I've been teaching them for so long I take much of what I do for granted. Like following the phrase of a dance -- let's take some of those wonderful Purcell dance tunes used in ECD as examples -- that sarabande rhythm has a double downbeat feeling; that a bouree has a single quarternote pick up, that an allemande is probably going to be tending towards double-dotting at the 8th note level... Once you know those things, you find them all over the place in the music...and in the dances, too. Walter, I think you're preaching to the converted here, but I think it's nice that you've found that for your own playing. Would that many other modern instrumentalists can, too! An interesting dichotomy for me is that -- keeping Playford style to Playford's own time here -- the musical pick-ups from a purely musical point of view require a lift so that one arrives on the downbeat. If you watch dancers who are doing Baroque or Baroque-style dance the exact opposite is true, that the preparation is down (sinking) before the downbeat (which is often a step where the heel is raised off the floor). Try getting a bunch of musicians to do that! What an adventure! I shall confess to being the person who took Toby to task about "periodness" in the music and the LACK of actually DANCING discussion on this list. As many of you many know, Alan Winston set up ECD after reading many wishes to discuss ECD on the RenDance list. FYI, the RenDance list deals about 99% with historical dance in a historical context, and discussion of ECD when dealing with 1st edition Playford is on the far edge of its limits. There is also another dance list for SCA types (Society for Creative Anachronism -- often subtitled The Middle Ages, not as they WERE, but as they Should have Been! -- and NO, I did not make that up), called SCA-dance. As I confessed privately to Toby and to Alan, I thought we would be discussing issues about the DANCES -- Sharp vs. what Playford actually says; just what is the best way to finish off this tricky figure, Playford contemporary dance sources..., etc. -- and I am most surprised (and quite disheartened) to find that we're spending a lot of time talking about what kind of chords Peter Barnes uses in his piano playing and stuff like this. I come to Playford and Playford-style from 15th c. and 16/17th c. Ren court dance; I come to the music from decades of playing early instruments in early music styles. I feel exhausted after a week on the topics that have shown up here and wonder if the past can ever be reclaimed by the directions that this has taken. So, please, folks, try to appreciate (as I am trying to appreciate) that there are many paths to dancing [enlightenment] and that you or my method is only one of many. Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:15:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:13:13 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: dance and music: sheila expressed what appeared to be concern about too much music discussion on what is supposed to be a dance list. i hope that music-making continues to be discussed, because the music and the dance would seem to be inextricably related, and the more one knows about one, the more one knows about the other. there are music issues that are well worth discussing; for example, 1-note vs. phrase-length intros to dances. this can go too far, of course, but on the whole, i think i would find a list that only spoke of how to do things in dance terms becoming boring rather quickly. viva a bit of variety..... sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not an official spokes-dancer for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:32:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:38:17 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > re: dance and music: > sheila expressed what appeared to be concern about too much > music discussion on what is supposed to be a dance list. No, what I am distressed by is a lot of time spent on playing dance music and hardly ANY time on actually DANCING... Sharon, I have no objection to people talking about PLAYing dance music, or even how long to hold notes or where to breathe or what instrument to play them on....but if you would be kind enough to re-read my post, you'll see WHERE this list came from and what it was REASONABLE to expect the focus of this list to be. The other lists WHENCE this list came do just that. The focus is DANCE, not the MUSIC, although music is certainly included within relevant topics. The other lists deal with reconstruction, conflict resolution of differing source material, etc... ...and I DON'T see that being discussed here... I am expressing my frustration at that lack. Somehow, I feel that discussion Peter Barnes' chord patterns and are they really appropriate to other dance bands is NOT what this list was set up to be about. If it was, then I'm obviously in the wrong place. Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:48:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: music and dance steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ECD-AT- playford) Message-ID: <9603081847.AA14215-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay here is a pithy one, who should lead the dance? Musician or top couple? one to chew over, and nothing to do with exact music. Another problem is who tells you when you are wrong?!! Other dilemmas of an on going morris team soon. Craig Turner. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:52:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 01:46:30 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Lorin MS To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603081854.NAA22908-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:44:06 +0100, Sheila Bosworth wrote: | | I think I did mention that I am working with Julia Sutton on a late 17th c. | French MS which includes VERY detailed patterns with footwork and hands | for many of the popular early ECD. I've only just begun, and I'm sure Julia | will want to let folks know about it. It's about a year from completion. | | | Sheila Beardslee Bosworth Sheila, This is VERY exciting, and I'm anxiously awaiting it! I'm assuming this is the Andre Lorin collection of country dances? I've never seen anything from this--so I'm thrilled to hear you and Julia are working to make it accessible to the rest of us. Oh boy--now I'm going to be on pins and needles waiting for it! Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 11:40:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:41:41 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: music and dance steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960308134141.1448-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What dance are you doing? Where? Under what circumstances? Your answer depends on these and other variables too. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 11:49:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 12:04:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:05:31 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Whither Steps... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960308140531.1448-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sheila: I'm at work, away from my sources, but here are a couple of thoughts on your frustration: First, Peter Barnes has set chords to Playford melodies, and suggested a number of sources for them. Many of these dances are from your Playford 1st edition. He is dealing with material I hold dear in a way that raises a number of concerns. "ECD" or "Playford.Slace" or whatever is a way of my finding out I am not alone in these and similar concerns about the music, not Mr. Barnes per.se. Second, as you well know, music and dance movement combine to form an incredible whole, when all works right, that neither can be by itself. To talk about one and not the other is to do injustice to both. Third, it's been awhile since I tackled this in a formal way, but I recall that even in what we generally refer to as the "Baroque Period" in music, one of the main functions of the bar-line or measure line was to aid in organizing the music, not necessarily to indicate strong and weak (and even weaker) beats. This helps explain, at least to me, your description of the various dance music forms. Even a casual glance at a random selection of Playford tunes, in their original appearance, will reveal some tunes that start at an odd place in the measure or the triple time tune that somehow got cast into a duple time framework. "Cool, careful reality is superior to inappropriate angst and hand- wringing." McIntyre John M. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 12:58:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 15:57:03 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: music and dance steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603082057.PAA13637-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Okay here is a pithy one, who should lead the dance? >Musician or top couple? >one to chew over, and nothing to do with exact music. >Another problem is who tells you when you are wrong?!! > >Other dilemmas of an on going morris team soon. > >Craig Turner. In Balkan dancing, which is usually done in a circle, the musicians follow the tempo of the dancer who is leading the line. Often in these countries, you pay the musicians to play your tune, and then you get to lead your dance! - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:14:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:09:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Sheila Bosworth wrote: > The other lists WHENCE this list came do just that. The focus > is DANCE, not the MUSIC, although music is certainly included > within relevant topics. > > The other lists deal with reconstruction, conflict resolution of differing > source material, etc... ...and I DON'T see that being discussed here... > > I am expressing my frustration at that lack. > > Somehow, I feel that discussion Peter Barnes' chord patterns and > are they really appropriate to other dance bands is NOT what this > list was set up to be about. If it was, then I'm obviously in the > wrong place. Sheila, if you're interested in seeing more discussion about reconstruction, resolution, etc., *post about it*. IMHO, as a musician who plays for ECD, this place is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss aspects of the music *as well as* the dancing itself. I'd much rather see the concerns integrated in the maillist, as they are in the dances. We could, of course, set up a separate mailing list devoted entirely to musical issues, but I suspect that if we did, the musicians would seldom see what the dancers were talking about, and vice versa, and I think that would be a decidedly unhealthy situation. Check out rec.folk-dancing for a good example of how *all* the concerns of dancers, callers, and musicians can co-exist and cross-fertilize. We've been, in the week this group has existed, talking about a current issue raised by the publication of an important new book. No doubt other issues will arise, ranging from dance steps to food to sexual harassment on the dance floor to acoustics to...all the things that concern a dance community. And that is how it should be. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 21:15:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition (Dance & Music, No 6 by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) Hardcover List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 Published by Pendragon Pr Publication date: July 1992 ISBN: 0945193319 Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 03:08:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 06:07:46 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603091107.GAA27156-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >... >Sheila, if you're interested in seeing more discussion about >reconstruction, resolution, etc., *post about it*. IMHO, as a musician >who plays for ECD, this place is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss >aspects of the music *as well as* the dancing itself. I'd much rather see >the concerns integrated in the maillist, as they are in the dances. We >could, of course, set up a separate mailing list devoted entirely to >musical issues, but I suspect that if we did, the musicians would seldom >see what the dancers were talking about, and vice versa, and I think that >would be a decidedly unhealthy situation. >... >Paul When I first started doing International Folk Dancing, about 15 years ago, we were taught that a "Kolo" was the general name Balkan circle dances. Later at a Balkan workshop, I learned that a "Kolo" is actually a big party which includes feasting, music, and dance. The circle dance "Kolo" was just part of the entire event and didn't have any special name. If fact, some Balkan languages don't even have a word for dance, even though they are famous for it. So this separation of culture into cuisine, music, dance, ... is really a symtom of modern specialist thinking. - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 07:43:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 22:37:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603091545.KAA08397-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: | Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which | is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: | | A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : | Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century | English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition | (Dance & Music, No 6 | | by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) | | Hardcover | List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 | Published by Pendragon Pr | Publication date: July 1992 | ISBN: 0945193319 | | Mary Beth Goodman | I have a copy of it. Jennifer Shennan is a Baroque dancer in New Zealand. I met her at the Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop. The manuscript turned up in New Zealand a few years ago, and the owners contacted Jennifer and some other Baroque folks, including my friend Baroque violinist Bronwen Pugh, just to try and find out whether the manuscript had any value or not. The book includes biographical and contextual material on Tomlinson, provenance of the MSS, commentary on the dances included, and a facsimile reproduction of the MSS itself. All of the dances are in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation. The dances in it are: Published elsewhere: Mr. Caverley's Slow Minuitt 5 Dances by Louis Pecour from the 1704 Recueil de Dances Sarabande pour deux hommmes Entree pou un Homme et une Femme Entree a Deux Sarabande a Deux Entre Espagnolle pour un Homme et une Femme Not published elsewhere: Minevit [Minuet] for a Woman Rigadon for a Woman Entree (Rigadon) for a Man Entree (for a Man and a Woman) Canary (for a Man and a Woman) Saraband for a Man Most of the new dances were reconstructed and performed at Stanford in 1994. I did the minuet and rigadon for a woman, which are both _very_ easy. Some of the others are considerably more difficult. None of the dances in the book are country dances, unfortunately. So, if you're not interested in theatrical pieces and/or court danses a deux, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book. If you are, it is an interesting and valuable new source. Peggy Lamberson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 09:23:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Robb Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Shrewsbury Lasses To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was looking at a friend's copy of Keller and Shrimer and noticed that the K&S version of this dance had A, B1, B2. The facsimile of an old manuscript at the bottom had only A and B1. (I forget who's manuscript it was. T-something, I seem to recall.) B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing it in three couple sets. I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have any idea when B2 came into being? Christine ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:18:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0500 From: Cadwal yr Caerfor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3141D911.5328-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I intend to insert my two cents worth and ask for some help now. I have been reading thru Scotch Cap from 1st ed (1933 ed reprint) and I am having a little trouble with some of it. Admittedly, I have not tabulated many dances (in fact zero that I would really attribute to myself). I strongly believe in "and this is an exercise left for the student" but I also learn strongly by example. I would appreciate it if someone would post/mail me a tab of this dance that they have or know by heart (even if it is in general terms). I am familiar with ECD somewhat (as danced in the SCA) and know enough of them that the structure and very basic steps are well known, but some of the interpretations get me sometimes. Particularly, the first figure in Scotch Cap seems to be saying: Lord 2 and 3 back a double while Lady 1 and 2 do likewise Now they cross (meaning ??? Lady 1 and Lady 2 cross with Lord 2 and 3 with Lord 2 ending in the Lady 1 spot with her in his -OR- Lady 1 and Lady 2 exchanged as do the men (I doubt it)) Lord 1 and Lady 3 do a similar movement. So, advice? tab? Also, and I have a feeling I will get shouted at...is there an archive of tabs somewhere? Cadwal -- Two can eat as cheaply as one...if one doesnt eat. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 15:04:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:00:18 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603092300.AA03918-AT- world.std.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cadwal- As a Boston area ECdancer, I haven't a clue what "tabs" are, but as to the exchange you are asking about, indeed it is the first interpretation: Lady 1 and 2 exchange places with Lord 2 and 3; then Lord 1 and Lady 3 cross to each other's places. Most Playford dances are written out in modern terms, because there is so much danced these days. You should be able to connect, if not here, with people wh can give you clear instructions (though they probably won't use "lord" and "lady"). MaryS. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 19:11:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:10:14 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960309221012_442426652-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cadwal- For those of us who come to ECD more obliquely and not through the halls of EM academe, a wonderful beginning place is: THE PLAYFORD BALL 103 Early Country Dances 1651-1820 As Interpreted by Cecil Sharp and His Followers Kate Van Winkle Keller and Genevieve Shimer A copublication of A Cappella Books and The Country Dance and Song Society 2nd Edition The dance figures are described very clearly, includes the music for each dance and often gives copies of original MS along with tantalizing bits of historical background. When I began teaching a beginner's ECD class with Joyce Crouch of Pleasures of the Town, I was advised to begin with this book and happily pass that advice on. Mary Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 19:20:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:21:50 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Mary! I can't believe I'm meeting you in *this* list! ;-D Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 21:19:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: Cadwal yr Caerfor CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is how I notated it for my WWW site (following the account in "The Playford Ball") First Figure A 8 Up a double and back twice B1 4 First and second ladies facing second and third men, balance back and change places diagonally 4 First man change with third lady B2 8 Repeat, ending in original places Second Figure A 8 Partners side twice B1 4 Take hands along the sides, and lines fall back a double and forward 4 First and third men, first and third ladies, second couple: arm right and fall back to place B2 4 Lines fall back as before 4 Turn partner both hands Third Figure A 8 Partners arm right and left B1 2 Men four slips up, ladies four slips down, ending in a line in the center (third man facing first lady). 6 Third man and first lady being progressive hey, handing back to place B2 8 Do the same with men slipping down and ladies slipping up. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:56:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 03:44:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ------------------------------------------------------------- BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------- X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ------------------------------------------ THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ------------------------------------------ toby; thanks. sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 05:42:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:35:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:15:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:30:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: set and turn To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:57:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 09:31:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ECD-AT- playford) Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:11:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:15:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:46:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:51:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:18:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:33:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:47:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:59:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Subscription To: 'ECD' Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subscribe Tim Scott ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:26:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:13:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:53:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subscribe Tim Scott ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:23:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #3 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:04 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:01 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7663EC74.12-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #4 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: Re: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------ X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ----------------------------------------- THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ----------------------------------------- toby; thanks. sharon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #4 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:07 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.79F2538A.17-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #5 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest V1 #3 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #3 ****************************** ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #5 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:18 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:15 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7ED87A0F.22-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #6 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #4 ECD Digest V1 #5 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:01 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #4 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7663EC74.12-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: Re: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------ X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ----------------------------------------- THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ----------------------------------------- toby; thanks. sharon ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #4 ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:07 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #5 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.79F2538A.17-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest V1 #3 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #3 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #5 ****************************** ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #6 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:21 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.827002A5.27-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #7 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap (5 msgs) Shrewsbury Lasses Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0500 From: Cadwal yr Caerfor Subject: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <3141D911.5328-AT- ix.netcom.com> I intend to insert my two cents worth and ask for some help now. I have been reading thru Scotch Cap from 1st ed (1933 ed reprint) and I am having a little trouble with some of it. Admittedly, I have not tabulated many dances (in fact zero that I would really attribute to myself). I strongly believe in "and this is an exercise left for the student" but I also learn strongly by example. I would appreciate it if someone would post/mail me a tab of this dance that they have or know by heart (even if it is in general terms). I am familiar with ECD somewhat (as danced in the SCA) and know enough of them that the structure and very basic steps are well known, but some of the interpretations get me sometimes. Particularly, the first figure in Scotch Cap seems to be saying: Lord 2 and 3 back a double while Lady 1 and 2 do likewise Now they cross (meaning ??? Lady 1 and Lady 2 cross with Lord 2 and 3 with Lord 2 ending in the Lady 1 spot with her in his -OR- Lady 1 and Lady 2 exchanged as do the men (I doubt it)) Lord 1 and Lady 3 do a similar movement. So, advice? tab? Also, and I have a feeling I will get shouted at...is there an archive of tabs somewhere? Cadwal -- Two can eat as cheaply as one...if one doesnt eat. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:00:18 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <199603092300.AA03918-AT- world.std.com> Cadwal- As a Boston area ECdancer, I haven't a clue what "tabs" are, but as to the exchange you are asking about, indeed it is the first interpretation: Lady 1 and 2 exchange places with Lord 2 and 3; then Lord 1 and Lady 3 cross to each other's places. Most Playford dances are written out in modern terms, because there is so much danced these days. You should be able to connect, if not here, with people wh can give you clear instructions (though they probably won't use "lord" and "lady"). MaryS. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:10:14 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960309221012_442426652-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Cadwal- For those of us who come to ECD more obliquely and not through the halls of EM academe, a wonderful beginning place is: THE PLAYFORD BALL 103 Early Country Dances 1651-1820 As Interpreted by Cecil Sharp and His Followers Kate Van Winkle Keller and Genevieve Shimer A copublication of A Cappella Books and The Country Dance and Song Society 2nd Edition The dance figures are described very clearly, includes the music for each dance and often gives copies of original MS along with tantalizing bits of historical background. When I began teaching a beginner's ECD class with Joyce Crouch of Pleasures of the Town, I was advised to begin with this book and happily pass that advice on. Mary Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:21:50 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: Hi Mary! I can't believe I'm meeting you in *this* list! ;-D Mary Beth Goodman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: This is how I notated it for my WWW site (following the account in "The Playford Ball") First Figure A 8 Up a double and back twice B1 4 First and second ladies facing second and third men, balance back and change places diagonally 4 First man change with third lady B2 8 Repeat, ending in original places Second Figure A 8 Partners side twice B1 4 Take hands along the sides, and lines fall back a double and forward 4 First and third men, first and third ladies, second couple: arm right and fall back to place B2 4 Lines fall back as before 4 Turn partner both hands Third Figure A 8 Partners arm right and left B1 2 Men four slips up, ladies four slips down, ending in a line in the center (third man facing first lady). 6 Third man and first lady being progressive hey, handing back to place B2 8 Do the same with men slipping down and ladies slipping up. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Robb Subject: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: I was looking at a friend's copy of Keller and Shrimer and noticed that the K&S version of this dance had A, B1, B2. The facsimile of an old manuscript at the bottom had only A and B1. (I forget who's manuscript it was. T-something, I seem to recall.) B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing it in three couple sets. I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have any idea when B2 came into being? Christine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 22:37:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603091545.KAA08397-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: | Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which | is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: | | A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : | Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century | English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition | (Dance & Music, No 6 | | by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) | | Hardcover | List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 | Published by Pendragon Pr | Publication date: July 1992 | ISBN: 0945193319 | | Mary Beth Goodman | I have a copy of it. Jennifer Shennan is a Baroque dancer in New Zealand. I met her at the Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop. The manuscript turned up in New Zealand a few years ago, and the owners contacted Jennifer and some other Baroque folks, including my friend Baroque violinist Bronwen Pugh, just to try and find out whether the manuscript had any value or not. The book includes biographical and contextual material on Tomlinson, provenance of the MSS, commentary on the dances included, and a facsimile reproduction of the MSS itself. All of the dances are in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation. The dances in it are: Published elsewhere: Mr. Caverley's Slow Minuitt 5 Dances by Louis Pecour from the 1704 Recueil de Dances Sarabande pour deux hommmes Entree pou un Homme et une Femme Entree a Deux Sarabande a Deux Entre Espagnolle pour un Homme et une Femme Not published elsewhere: Minevit [Minuet] for a Woman Rigadon for a Woman Entree (Rigadon) for a Man Entree (for a Man and a Woman) Canary (for a Man and a Woman) Saraband for a Man Most of the new dances were reconstructed and performed at Stanford in 1994. I did the minuet and rigadon for a woman, which are both _very_ easy. Some of the others are considerably more difficult. None of the dances in the book are country dances, unfortunately. So, if you're not interested in theatrical pieces and/or court danses a deux, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book. If you are, it is an interesting and valuable new source. Peggy Lamberson ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #7 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:33 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.899DA726.32-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #8 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #6 ECD Digest V1 #7 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:15 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #6 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7ED87A0F.22-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #4 ECD Digest V1 #5 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:01 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #4 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7663EC74.12-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: Re: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------ X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ----------------------------------------- THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ----------------------------------------- toby; thanks. sharon ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #4 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:07 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #5 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.79F2538A.17-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest V1 #3 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #3 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #5 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #6 ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:21 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #7 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.827002A5.27-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap (5 msgs) Shrewsbury Lasses Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0500 From: Cadwal yr Caerfor Subject: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <3141D911.5328-AT- ix.netcom.com> I intend to insert my two cents worth and ask for some help now. I have been reading thru Scotch Cap from 1st ed (1933 ed reprint) and I am having a little trouble with some of it. Admittedly, I have not tabulated many dances (in fact zero that I would really attribute to myself). I strongly believe in "and this is an exercise left for the student" but I also learn strongly by example. I would appreciate it if someone would post/mail me a tab of this dance that they have or know by heart (even if it is in general terms). I am familiar with ECD somewhat (as danced in the SCA) and know enough of them that the structure and very basic steps are well known, but some of the interpretations get me sometimes. Particularly, the first figure in Scotch Cap seems to be saying: Lord 2 and 3 back a double while Lady 1 and 2 do likewise Now they cross (meaning ??? Lady 1 and Lady 2 cross with Lord 2 and 3 with Lord 2 ending in the Lady 1 spot with her in his -OR- Lady 1 and Lady 2 exchanged as do the men (I doubt it)) Lord 1 and Lady 3 do a similar movement. So, advice? tab? Also, and I have a feeling I will get shouted at...is there an archive of tabs somewhere? Cadwal -- Two can eat as cheaply as one...if one doesnt eat. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:00:18 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <199603092300.AA03918-AT- world.std.com> Cadwal- As a Boston area ECdancer, I haven't a clue what "tabs" are, but as to the exchange you are asking about, indeed it is the first interpretation: Lady 1 and 2 exchange places with Lord 2 and 3; then Lord 1 and Lady 3 cross to each other's places. Most Playford dances are written out in modern terms, because there is so much danced these days. You should be able to connect, if not here, with people wh can give you clear instructions (though they probably won't use "lord" and "lady"). MaryS. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:10:14 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960309221012_442426652-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Cadwal- For those of us who come to ECD more obliquely and not through the halls of EM academe, a wonderful beginning place is: THE PLAYFORD BALL 103 Early Country Dances 1651-1820 As Interpreted by Cecil Sharp and His Followers Kate Van Winkle Keller and Genevieve Shimer A copublication of A Cappella Books and The Country Dance and Song Society 2nd Edition The dance figures are described very clearly, includes the music for each dance and often gives copies of original MS along with tantalizing bits of historical background. When I began teaching a beginner's ECD class with Joyce Crouch of Pleasures of the Town, I was advised to begin with this book and happily pass that advice on. Mary Jones ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:21:50 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: Hi Mary! I can't believe I'm meeting you in *this* list! ;-D Mary Beth Goodman ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: This is how I notated it for my WWW site (following the account in "The Playford Ball") First Figure A 8 Up a double and back twice B1 4 First and second ladies facing second and third men, balance back and change places diagonally 4 First man change with third lady B2 8 Repeat, ending in original places Second Figure A 8 Partners side twice B1 4 Take hands along the sides, and lines fall back a double and forward 4 First and third men, first and third ladies, second couple: arm right and fall back to place B2 4 Lines fall back as before 4 Turn partner both hands Third Figure A 8 Partners arm right and left B1 2 Men four slips up, ladies four slips down, ending in a line in the center (third man facing first lady). 6 Third man and first lady being progressive hey, handing back to place B2 8 Do the same with men slipping down and ladies slipping up. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Robb Subject: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: I was looking at a friend's copy of Keller and Shrimer and noticed that the K&S version of this dance had A, B1, B2. The facsimile of an old manuscript at the bottom had only A and B1. (I forget who's manuscript it was. T-something, I seem to recall.) B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing it in three couple sets. I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have any idea when B2 came into being? Christine ----------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 22:37:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603091545.KAA08397-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: | Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which | is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: | | A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : | Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century | English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition | (Dance & Music, No 6 | | by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) | | Hardcover | List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 | Published by Pendragon Pr | Publication date: July 1992 | ISBN: 0945193319 | | Mary Beth Goodman | I have a copy of it. Jennifer Shennan is a Baroque dancer in New Zealand. I met her at the Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop. The manuscript turned up in New Zealand a few years ago, and the owners contacted Jennifer and some other Baroque folks, including my friend Baroque violinist Bronwen Pugh, just to try and find out whether the manuscript had any value or not. The book includes biographical and contextual material on Tomlinson, provenance of the MSS, commentary on the dances included, and a facsimile reproduction of the MSS itself. All of the dances are in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation. The dances in it are: Published elsewhere: Mr. Caverley's Slow Minuitt 5 Dances by Louis Pecour from the 1704 Recueil de Dances Sarabande pour deux hommmes Entree pou un Homme et une Femme Entree a Deux Sarabande a Deux Entre Espagnolle pour un Homme et une Femme Not published elsewhere: Minevit [Minuet] for a Woman Rigadon for a Woman Entree (Rigadon) for a Man Entree (for a Man and a Woman) Canary (for a Man and a Woman) Saraband for a Man Most of the new dances were reconstructed and performed at Stanford in 1994. I did the minuet and rigadon for a woman, which are both _very_ easy. Some of the others are considerably more difficult. None of the dances in the book are country dances, unfortunately. So, if you're not interested in theatrical pieces and/or court danses a deux, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book. If you are, it is an interesting and valuable new source. Peggy Lamberson ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #7 ****************************** ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #8 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:46 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.91681662.37-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #9 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #8 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:33 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #8 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.899DA726.32-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #6 ECD Digest V1 #7 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:15 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #6 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7ED87A0F.22-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #4 ECD Digest V1 #5 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:01 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #4 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7663EC74.12-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: Re: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------ X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ----------------------------------------- THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ----------------------------------------- toby; thanks. sharon ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #4 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:07 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #5 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.79F2538A.17-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest V1 #3 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #3 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #5 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #6 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:21 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #7 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.827002A5.27-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap (5 msgs) Shrewsbury Lasses Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0500 From: Cadwal yr Caerfor Subject: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <3141D911.5328-AT- ix.netcom.com> I intend to insert my two cents worth and ask for some help now. I have been reading thru Scotch Cap from 1st ed (1933 ed reprint) and I am having a little trouble with some of it. Admittedly, I have not tabulated many dances (in fact zero that I would really attribute to myself). I strongly believe in "and this is an exercise left for the student" but I also learn strongly by example. I would appreciate it if someone would post/mail me a tab of this dance that they have or know by heart (even if it is in general terms). I am familiar with ECD somewhat (as danced in the SCA) and know enough of them that the structure and very basic steps are well known, but some of the interpretations get me sometimes. Particularly, the first figure in Scotch Cap seems to be saying: Lord 2 and 3 back a double while Lady 1 and 2 do likewise Now they cross (meaning ??? Lady 1 and Lady 2 cross with Lord 2 and 3 with Lord 2 ending in the Lady 1 spot with her in his -OR- Lady 1 and Lady 2 exchanged as do the men (I doubt it)) Lord 1 and Lady 3 do a similar movement. So, advice? tab? Also, and I have a feeling I will get shouted at...is there an archive of tabs somewhere? Cadwal -- Two can eat as cheaply as one...if one doesnt eat. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:00:18 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <199603092300.AA03918-AT- world.std.com> Cadwal- As a Boston area ECdancer, I haven't a clue what "tabs" are, but as to the exchange you are asking about, indeed it is the first interpretation: Lady 1 and 2 exchange places with Lord 2 and 3; then Lord 1 and Lady 3 cross to each other's places. Most Playford dances are written out in modern terms, because there is so much danced these days. You should be able to connect, if not here, with people wh can give you clear instructions (though they probably won't use "lord" and "lady"). MaryS. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:10:14 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960309221012_442426652-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Cadwal- For those of us who come to ECD more obliquely and not through the halls of EM academe, a wonderful beginning place is: THE PLAYFORD BALL 103 Early Country Dances 1651-1820 As Interpreted by Cecil Sharp and His Followers Kate Van Winkle Keller and Genevieve Shimer A copublication of A Cappella Books and The Country Dance and Song Society 2nd Edition The dance figures are described very clearly, includes the music for each dance and often gives copies of original MS along with tantalizing bits of historical background. When I began teaching a beginner's ECD class with Joyce Crouch of Pleasures of the Town, I was advised to begin with this book and happily pass that advice on. Mary Jones ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:21:50 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: Hi Mary! I can't believe I'm meeting you in *this* list! ;-D Mary Beth Goodman ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: This is how I notated it for my WWW site (following the account in "The Playford Ball") First Figure A 8 Up a double and back twice B1 4 First and second ladies facing second and third men, balance back and change places diagonally 4 First man change with third lady B2 8 Repeat, ending in original places Second Figure A 8 Partners side twice B1 4 Take hands along the sides, and lines fall back a double and forward 4 First and third men, first and third ladies, second couple: arm right and fall back to place B2 4 Lines fall back as before 4 Turn partner both hands Third Figure A 8 Partners arm right and left B1 2 Men four slips up, ladies four slips down, ending in a line in the center (third man facing first lady). 6 Third man and first lady being progressive hey, handing back to place B2 8 Do the same with men slipping down and ladies slipping up. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Robb Subject: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: I was looking at a friend's copy of Keller and Shrimer and noticed that the K&S version of this dance had A, B1, B2. The facsimile of an old manuscript at the bottom had only A and B1. (I forget who's manuscript it was. T-something, I seem to recall.) B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing it in three couple sets. I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have any idea when B2 came into being? Christine ----------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 22:37:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603091545.KAA08397-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: | Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which | is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: | | A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : | Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century | English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition | (Dance & Music, No 6 | | by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) | | Hardcover | List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 | Published by Pendragon Pr | Publication date: July 1992 | ISBN: 0945193319 | | Mary Beth Goodman | I have a copy of it. Jennifer Shennan is a Baroque dancer in New Zealand. I met her at the Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop. The manuscript turned up in New Zealand a few years ago, and the owners contacted Jennifer and some other Baroque folks, including my friend Baroque violinist Bronwen Pugh, just to try and find out whether the manuscript had any value or not. The book includes biographical and contextual material on Tomlinson, provenance of the MSS, commentary on the dances included, and a facsimile reproduction of the MSS itself. All of the dances are in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation. The dances in it are: Published elsewhere: Mr. Caverley's Slow Minuitt 5 Dances by Louis Pecour from the 1704 Recueil de Dances Sarabande pour deux hommmes Entree pou un Homme et une Femme Entree a Deux Sarabande a Deux Entre Espagnolle pour un Homme et une Femme Not published elsewhere: Minevit [Minuet] for a Woman Rigadon for a Woman Entree (Rigadon) for a Man Entree (for a Man and a Woman) Canary (for a Man and a Woman) Saraband for a Man Most of the new dances were reconstructed and performed at Stanford in 1994. I did the minuet and rigadon for a woman, which are both _very_ easy. Some of the others are considerably more difficult. None of the dances in the book are country dances, unfortunately. So, if you're not interested in theatrical pieces and/or court danses a deux, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book. If you are, it is an interesting and valuable new source. Peggy Lamberson ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #7 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #8 ****************************** ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #9 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:47:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:49:14 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Today I received all these digests and I don't know why -- did someone reset me to digest and give me all the back issues as well? I was paying attention really I was! Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:17:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:00:14 -0500 From: "m.a.j. mckenna" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603130417.XAA00293-AT- borg.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 10:49 PM 3/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >Today I received all these digests and I don't know why -- did someone >reset me to digest and give me all the back issues as well? > >I was paying attention really I was! > >Mary Beth Goodman me too. is this a wholesale change? maryn mckenna ('cause, look, i *never* buy retail...) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:34:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:33:35 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: IMage To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ECD-AT- playford) Message-ID: <9603130933.AA16598-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually I was looking for opinions on reasons for not dancing to the music. I used Morris as an example not as the catch all. Sprry for the confusion. I must say it is nice that it seems less of a problem in America, but then maybe you have more people interested in their past roots? Craig. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:00:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:00:03 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F433.2B057084.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #10 ECD Digest Wed, 13 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #9 IMage Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list (2 msgs) Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:46 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #9 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.91681662.37-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #8 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:33 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #8 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.899DA726.32-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #6 ECD Digest V1 #7 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:15 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #6 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7ED87A0F.22-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #4 ECD Digest V1 #5 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:01 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #4 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.7663EC74.12-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: Re: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------ X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ----------------------------------------- THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ----------------------------------------- toby; thanks. sharon ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #4 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:07 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #5 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.79F2538A.17-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest V1 #3 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #3 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #5 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #6 ****************************** ----------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:52:21 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #7 Message-ID: <0099F3CD.827002A5.27-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Scotch Cap (5 msgs) Shrewsbury Lasses Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0500 From: Cadwal yr Caerfor Subject: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <3141D911.5328-AT- ix.netcom.com> I intend to insert my two cents worth and ask for some help now. I have been reading thru Scotch Cap from 1st ed (1933 ed reprint) and I am having a little trouble with some of it. Admittedly, I have not tabulated many dances (in fact zero that I would really attribute to myself). I strongly believe in "and this is an exercise left for the student" but I also learn strongly by example. I would appreciate it if someone would post/mail me a tab of this dance that they have or know by heart (even if it is in general terms). I am familiar with ECD somewhat (as danced in the SCA) and know enough of them that the structure and very basic steps are well known, but some of the interpretations get me sometimes. Particularly, the first figure in Scotch Cap seems to be saying: Lord 2 and 3 back a double while Lady 1 and 2 do likewise Now they cross (meaning ??? Lady 1 and Lady 2 cross with Lord 2 and 3 with Lord 2 ending in the Lady 1 spot with her in his -OR- Lady 1 and Lady 2 exchanged as do the men (I doubt it)) Lord 1 and Lady 3 do a similar movement. So, advice? tab? Also, and I have a feeling I will get shouted at...is there an archive of tabs somewhere? Cadwal -- Two can eat as cheaply as one...if one doesnt eat. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:00:18 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <199603092300.AA03918-AT- world.std.com> Cadwal- As a Boston area ECdancer, I haven't a clue what "tabs" are, but as to the exchange you are asking about, indeed it is the first interpretation: Lady 1 and 2 exchange places with Lord 2 and 3; then Lord 1 and Lady 3 cross to each other's places. Most Playford dances are written out in modern terms, because there is so much danced these days. You should be able to connect, if not here, with people wh can give you clear instructions (though they probably won't use "lord" and "lady"). MaryS. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:10:14 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960309221012_442426652-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Cadwal- For those of us who come to ECD more obliquely and not through the halls of EM academe, a wonderful beginning place is: THE PLAYFORD BALL 103 Early Country Dances 1651-1820 As Interpreted by Cecil Sharp and His Followers Kate Van Winkle Keller and Genevieve Shimer A copublication of A Cappella Books and The Country Dance and Song Society 2nd Edition The dance figures are described very clearly, includes the music for each dance and often gives copies of original MS along with tantalizing bits of historical background. When I began teaching a beginner's ECD class with Joyce Crouch of Pleasures of the Town, I was advised to begin with this book and happily pass that advice on. Mary Jones ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:21:50 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: Hi Mary! I can't believe I'm meeting you in *this* list! ;-D Mary Beth Goodman ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: This is how I notated it for my WWW site (following the account in "The Playford Ball") First Figure A 8 Up a double and back twice B1 4 First and second ladies facing second and third men, balance back and change places diagonally 4 First man change with third lady B2 8 Repeat, ending in original places Second Figure A 8 Partners side twice B1 4 Take hands along the sides, and lines fall back a double and forward 4 First and third men, first and third ladies, second couple: arm right and fall back to place B2 4 Lines fall back as before 4 Turn partner both hands Third Figure A 8 Partners arm right and left B1 2 Men four slips up, ladies four slips down, ending in a line in the center (third man facing first lady). 6 Third man and first lady being progressive hey, handing back to place B2 8 Do the same with men slipping down and ladies slipping up. ----------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Robb Subject: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: I was looking at a friend's copy of Keller and Shrimer and noticed that the K&S version of this dance had A, B1, B2. The facsimile of an old manuscript at the bottom had only A and B1. (I forget who's manuscript it was. T-something, I seem to recall.) B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing it in three couple sets. I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have any idea when B2 came into being? Christine ----------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 22:37:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <199603091545.KAA08397-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: | Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which | is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: | | A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : | Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century | English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition | (Dance & Music, No 6 | | by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) | | Hardcover | List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 | Published by Pendragon Pr | Publication date: July 1992 | ISBN: 0945193319 | | Mary Beth Goodman | I have a copy of it. Jennifer Shennan is a Baroque dancer in New Zealand. I met her at the Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop. The manuscript turned up in New Zealand a few years ago, and the owners contacted Jennifer and some other Baroque folks, including my friend Baroque violinist Bronwen Pugh, just to try and find out whether the manuscript had any value or not. The book includes biographical and contextual material on Tomlinson, provenance of the MSS, commentary on the dances included, and a facsimile reproduction of the MSS itself. All of the dances are in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation. The dances in it are: Published elsewhere: Mr. Caverley's Slow Minuitt 5 Dances by Louis Pecour from the 1704 Recueil de Dances Sarabande pour deux hommmes Entree pou un Homme et une Femme Entree a Deux Sarabande a Deux Entre Espagnolle pour un Homme et une Femme Not published elsewhere: Minevit [Minuet] for a Woman Rigadon for a Woman Entree (Rigadon) for a Man Entree (for a Man and a Woman) Canary (for a Man and a Woman) Saraband for a Man Most of the new dances were reconstructed and performed at Stanford in 1994. I did the minuet and rigadon for a woman, which are both _very_ easy. Some of the others are considerably more difficult. None of the dances in the book are country dances, unfortunately. So, if you're not interested in theatrical pieces and/or court danses a deux, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book. If you are, it is an interesting and valuable new source. Peggy Lamberson ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #7 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #8 ****************************** ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #9 ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:33:35 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: IMage Message-ID: <9603130933.AA16598-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Actually I was looking for opinions on reasons for not dancing to the music. I used Morris as an example not as the catch all. Sprry for the confusion. I must say it is nice that it seems less of a problem in America, but then maybe you have more people interested in their past roots? Craig. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:49:14 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Subject: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list Message-ID: Today I received all these digests and I don't know why -- did someone reset me to digest and give me all the back issues as well? I was paying attention really I was! Mary Beth Goodman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:00:14 -0500 From: "m.a.j. mckenna" Subject: Re: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list Message-ID: <199603130417.XAA00293-AT- borg.mindspring.com> At 10:49 PM 3/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >Today I received all these digests and I don't know why -- did someone >reset me to digest and give me all the back issues as well? > >I was paying attention really I was! > >Mary Beth Goodman me too. is this a wholesale change? maryn mckenna ('cause, look, i *never* buy retail...) ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #10 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:08:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:09:57 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960313090957.541-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cadwal: I misinformed you yesterday regarding Jenny Pluck Pears. It's been too many years since I looked at that matrix of related problems. The melody as used by Sharp, Barnes, Shimer/Keller, et. al., appears in the first edition. The same melody appears, according to my own notes in tes in Mellor and Bridgewater, in the 2nd edition (both issues) and the 3rd edition (both issues). It is B&M's reliance on the 7th edition (I mistakenly said the 4th or the 6th) that gets into trouble. Also, B&M leave two measures out of the A part (I mistakenly said the B part). Curiously, the 7th edition, ca. 1686, (p. 7) does have two measures missing in the B section. Bridge- water (who did the music) overcame that problem but not the two missing measures in the A part. In his introduction, he only mentions the 7th edition as a source, but since he thanks the British Museum in his "Preface to the Music," he easily could have had access to other editions. More ways to contact CDSS: Their Fax is 413-585-8728 Their e-mail: 71231.2526-AT- compuserve.com Hope this clarifies instead of muddling Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:14:21 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:14:10 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Digest To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960313101408_349909220-AT- emout10.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If we are getting the Digest version, will we no longer receive the original versions? AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:20:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:19:16 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960313101915_244927343-AT- mail04.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, After ASC, I participated in a Scottish Country Dance group in Birmingham for a while, and also joined the Society for Creative Anachronism (I had found out about them during college, but just couldn't find the time...). I'm still a member of the SCA, and do a lot of reconstruction and teaching of Medieval and Renaissance dances. At the tail end of the time period the SCA re-enacts is ECD, so that's how I was introduced to that dance genre. I would love to come up and dance sometime! I'm living in Columbus, GA, right now, so it would be an easy drive. Even if it weren't an easy drive, I would still love to come! (As a matter of fact, I'm attending a Playford Ball in Nashville with some SCA friends next weekend. That's about six hours for me, taking a detour through Birmingham to drop off my boys (Brion, almost 7, and Connor, 4) at my parents' for the weekend.) How did I end up in Columbus? Joel and I divorced in 1981, and I couldn't get a job in my field after that (the church is more forgiving of divorce now than it was 15 years ago) -- I was a Director of Christian Education. So I got certified to teach English and history, and found a job in Mobile, AL. I started dating a handsome young man (Richard) who was in nursing school on an ROTC scholarship, and we were married in 1986. Since that time, we've lived in Oklahoma (Ft. Sill), Texas (Ft. Sam Houston and Ft. Hood), and now Columbus (Ft. Benning). He's now an anesthetist, and I've mostly continued teaching (sporadically - I have to look for a new job every time we move). He's also in the SCA, and he mostly fights, but he also enjoys dancing. He might be able to get time off to go to the Playford Ball in Nashville with me. He's getting out of the military next February, and we plan to move back to Birmigham (both of our families live there). Let me know when your next dance is, and Richard and I will try to make it! Bye for now, Katrina P.S. Tell Sarah I said, "Hi!" P.P.S. From now on, I'll send all personal notes like this directly to you, instead of through the mailing list. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:56:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:56:47 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603131556.AA05110-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Someone was asking about Shrewsbury Lasses originally being a triple- minor longways which was converted at some point to a 3 couple dance. At the ECD workshop at the Knoxville dance weekend last month we did Shrewsbury Lasses as a triple-minor longways dance. As I recall we only used the B1 music and did just the B1 figures. I believe the teacher's name was Karen Dotson. It seemed to work fine. I suspect that this was how it originally was and the the B music was repeated to allow an additional progression (and longer dance) when it was turned into a triplet. Perhaps Toby Koosman (who was in the band) can give us more information. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:59:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:59:42 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603131559.AA06679-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I also got all the digests. In addition may I suggest that when replying to a digest, don't include the entire text of the digest, jus the pertinent parts. These files are getting big and there is so much extra text it's hard to see the actual replies. Jonathan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:11:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F45A.6E49A708.89-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- As you can tell, the DIGEST processing seems to be completely screwed up. (I knew it was a mistake to tell people that it was supported and then go out of town for four days, but I believed the documentation for the mailing list software.) Initially, the people who'd selected the digest version weren't getting anything. Now, everybody gets the digest whether they've selected it or not, and if they haven't selected it, they also get the original postings. Worse yet, previous digests are included in the digest, so it just keeps getting bigger. I'm sorry for the problems, and am working to fix them. If I can't get something working today or tomorrow, I will disable digest processing altogether. Again, my apologies. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:54:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:55:11 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960313145511.c14-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan: Hang in there! Overall, this is a wonderful addition to the internet. Keep chugging along. Forbes/Baker ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:47:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:47:50 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F496.0B0349E2.25-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #11 ECD Digest Wed, 13 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Digest From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses Tomlinson Workbook Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:14:10 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Digest Message-ID: <960313101408_349909220-AT- emout10.mail.aol.com> If we are getting the Digest version, will we no longer receive the original versions? AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:55:11 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest Message-ID: <960313145511.c14-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Alan: Hang in there! Overall, this is a wonderful addition to the internet. Keep chugging along. Forbes/Baker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation Message-ID: <0099F45A.6E49A708.89-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Folks -- As you can tell, the DIGEST processing seems to be completely screwed up. (I knew it was a mistake to tell people that it was supported and then go out of town for four days, but I believed the documentation for the mailing list software.) Initially, the people who'd selected the digest version weren't getting anything. Now, everybody gets the digest whether they've selected it or not, and if they haven't selected it, they also get the original postings. Worse yet, previous digests are included in the digest, so it just keeps getting bigger. I'm sorry for the problems, and am working to fix them. If I can't get something working today or tomorrow, I will disable digest processing altogether. Again, my apologies. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:09:57 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960313090957.541-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Cadwal: I misinformed you yesterday regarding Jenny Pluck Pears. It's been too many years since I looked at that matrix of related problems. The melody as used by Sharp, Barnes, Shimer/Keller, et. al., appears in the first edition. The same melody appears, according to my own notes in tes in Mellor and Bridgewater, in the 2nd edition (both issues) and the 3rd edition (both issues). It is B&M's reliance on the 7th edition (I mistakenly said the 4th or the 6th) that gets into trouble. Also, B&M leave two measures out of the A part (I mistakenly said the B part). Curiously, the 7th edition, ca. 1686, (p. 7) does have two measures missing in the B section. Bridge- water (who did the music) overcame that problem but not the two missing measures in the A part. In his introduction, he only mentions the 7th edition as a source, but since he thanks the British Museum in his "Preface to the Music," he easily could have had access to other editions. More ways to contact CDSS: Their Fax is 413-585-8728 Their e-mail: 71231.2526-AT- compuserve.com Hope this clarifies instead of muddling Forbes/Baker University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:56:47 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603131556.AA05110-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Someone was asking about Shrewsbury Lasses originally being a triple- minor longways which was converted at some point to a 3 couple dance. At the ECD workshop at the Knoxville dance weekend last month we did Shrewsbury Lasses as a triple-minor longways dance. As I recall we only used the B1 music and did just the B1 figures. I believe the teacher's name was Karen Dotson. It seemed to work fine. I suspect that this was how it originally was and the the B music was repeated to allow an additional progression (and longer dance) when it was turned into a triplet. Perhaps Toby Koosman (who was in the band) can give us more information. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:19:16 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960313101915_244927343-AT- mail04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, After ASC, I participated in a Scottish Country Dance group in Birmingham for a while, and also joined the Society for Creative Anachronism (I had found out about them during college, but just couldn't find the time...). I'm still a member of the SCA, and do a lot of reconstruction and teaching of Medieval and Renaissance dances. At the tail end of the time period the SCA re-enacts is ECD, so that's how I was introduced to that dance genre. I would love to come up and dance sometime! I'm living in Columbus, GA, right now, so it would be an easy drive. Even if it weren't an easy drive, I would still love to come! (As a matter of fact, I'm attending a Playford Ball in Nashville with some SCA friends next weekend. That's about six hours for me, taking a detour through Birmingham to drop off my boys (Brion, almost 7, and Connor, 4) at my parents' for the weekend.) How did I end up in Columbus? Joel and I divorced in 1981, and I couldn't get a job in my field after that (the church is more forgiving of divorce now than it was 15 years ago) -- I was a Director of Christian Education. So I got certified to teach English and history, and found a job in Mobile, AL. I started dating a handsome young man (Richard) who was in nursing school on an ROTC scholarship, and we were married in 1986. Since that time, we've lived in Oklahoma (Ft. Sill), Texas (Ft. Sam Houston and Ft. Hood), and now Columbus (Ft. Benning). He's now an anesthetist, and I've mostly continued teaching (sporadically - I have to look for a new job every time we move). He's also in the SCA, and he mostly fights, but he also enjoys dancing. He might be able to get time off to go to the Playford Ball in Nashville with me. He's getting out of the military next February, and we plan to move back to Birmigham (both of our families live there). Let me know when your next dance is, and Richard and I will try to make it! Bye for now, Katrina P.S. Tell Sarah I said, "Hi!" P.P.S. From now on, I'll send all personal notes like this directly to you, instead of through the mailing list. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:59:42 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list Message-ID: <199603131559.AA06679-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> I also got all the digests. In addition may I suggest that when replying to a digest, don't include the entire text of the digest, jus the pertinent parts. These files are getting big and there is so much extra text it's hard to see the actual replies. Jonathan ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #11 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:50:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:50:33 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F496.6BF35274.34-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #12 ECD Digest Wed, 13 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: ECD Digest V1 #11 Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:47:50 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: ECD Digest V1 #11 Message-ID: <0099F496.0B0349E2.25-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> ECD Digest Wed, 13 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Digest From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation Scotch Cap Shrewsbury Lasses Tomlinson Workbook Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:14:10 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Digest Message-ID: <960313101408_349909220-AT- emout10.mail.aol.com> If we are getting the Digest version, will we no longer receive the original versions? AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!! ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:55:11 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest Message-ID: <960313145511.c14-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Alan: Hang in there! Overall, this is a wonderful addition to the internet. Keep chugging along. Forbes/Baker ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation Message-ID: <0099F45A.6E49A708.89-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Folks -- As you can tell, the DIGEST processing seems to be completely screwed up. (I knew it was a mistake to tell people that it was supported and then go out of town for four days, but I believed the documentation for the mailing list software.) Initially, the people who'd selected the digest version weren't getting anything. Now, everybody gets the digest whether they've selected it or not, and if they haven't selected it, they also get the original postings. Worse yet, previous digests are included in the digest, so it just keeps getting bigger. I'm sorry for the problems, and am working to fix them. If I can't get something working today or tomorrow, I will disable digest processing altogether. Again, my apologies. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:09:57 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: Scotch Cap Message-ID: <960313090957.541-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Cadwal: I misinformed you yesterday regarding Jenny Pluck Pears. It's been too many years since I looked at that matrix of related problems. The melody as used by Sharp, Barnes, Shimer/Keller, et. al., appears in the first edition. The same melody appears, according to my own notes in tes in Mellor and Bridgewater, in the 2nd edition (both issues) and the 3rd edition (both issues). It is B&M's reliance on the 7th edition (I mistakenly said the 4th or the 6th) that gets into trouble. Also, B&M leave two measures out of the A part (I mistakenly said the B part). Curiously, the 7th edition, ca. 1686, (p. 7) does have two measures missing in the B section. Bridge- water (who did the music) overcame that problem but not the two missing measures in the A part. In his introduction, he only mentions the 7th edition as a source, but since he thanks the British Museum in his "Preface to the Music," he easily could have had access to other editions. More ways to contact CDSS: Their Fax is 413-585-8728 Their e-mail: 71231.2526-AT- compuserve.com Hope this clarifies instead of muddling Forbes/Baker University ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:56:47 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses Message-ID: <199603131556.AA05110-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Someone was asking about Shrewsbury Lasses originally being a triple- minor longways which was converted at some point to a 3 couple dance. At the ECD workshop at the Knoxville dance weekend last month we did Shrewsbury Lasses as a triple-minor longways dance. As I recall we only used the B1 music and did just the B1 figures. I believe the teacher's name was Karen Dotson. It seemed to work fine. I suspect that this was how it originally was and the the B music was repeated to allow an additional progression (and longer dance) when it was turned into a triplet. Perhaps Toby Koosman (who was in the band) can give us more information. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:19:16 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook Message-ID: <960313101915_244927343-AT- mail04.mail.aol.com> To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, After ASC, I participated in a Scottish Country Dance group in Birmingham for a while, and also joined the Society for Creative Anachronism (I had found out about them during college, but just couldn't find the time...). I'm still a member of the SCA, and do a lot of reconstruction and teaching of Medieval and Renaissance dances. At the tail end of the time period the SCA re-enacts is ECD, so that's how I was introduced to that dance genre. I would love to come up and dance sometime! I'm living in Columbus, GA, right now, so it would be an easy drive. Even if it weren't an easy drive, I would still love to come! (As a matter of fact, I'm attending a Playford Ball in Nashville with some SCA friends next weekend. That's about six hours for me, taking a detour through Birmingham to drop off my boys (Brion, almost 7, and Connor, 4) at my parents' for the weekend.) How did I end up in Columbus? Joel and I divorced in 1981, and I couldn't get a job in my field after that (the church is more forgiving of divorce now than it was 15 years ago) -- I was a Director of Christian Education. So I got certified to teach English and history, and found a job in Mobile, AL. I started dating a handsome young man (Richard) who was in nursing school on an ROTC scholarship, and we were married in 1986. Since that time, we've lived in Oklahoma (Ft. Sill), Texas (Ft. Sam Houston and Ft. Hood), and now Columbus (Ft. Benning). He's now an anesthetist, and I've mostly continued teaching (sporadically - I have to look for a new job every time we move). He's also in the SCA, and he mostly fights, but he also enjoys dancing. He might be able to get time off to go to the Playford Ball in Nashville with me. He's getting out of the military next February, and we plan to move back to Birmigham (both of our families live there). Let me know when your next dance is, and Richard and I will try to make it! Bye for now, Katrina P.S. Tell Sarah I said, "Hi!" P.P.S. From now on, I'll send all personal notes like this directly to you, instead of through the mailing list. ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:59:42 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Subject: Re: Why am I Getting a digest version of the ECD list Message-ID: <199603131559.AA06679-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> I also got all the digests. In addition may I suggest that when replying to a digest, don't include the entire text of the digest, jus the pertinent parts. These files are getting big and there is so much extra text it's hard to see the actual replies. Jonathan ----------------------------- End of ECD Digest V1 #11 ****************************** ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #12 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:07:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:06:52 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Digest follies, concluded To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F498.B3C5DAE8.19-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- I think this is all resolved now. (Famous last words?) If any non-digest subscriber gets a digest in future, or if any digest subscriber doesn't get anything, please let me know. Sorry about all the confusion. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:16:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:50:41 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: RE: From the list-owner: apologies and an update on the digest situation To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960313195039_167906155-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alan- Please accept my (and all our) apologies. You are doing a wonderful service for all of us! I should be the last to complain (as if I never prompted late or lost it while teaching). It's great! Mary Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:24:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:22:02 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603142122.AA25108-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >From: Jonathan Sivier > At the ECD workshop at the Knoxville dance weekend last month we did >Shrewsbury Lasses as a triple-minor longways dance. As I recall we only used >the B1 music and did just the B1 figures. I believe the teacher's name was >Karen Dotson. It seemed to work fine. I suspect that this was how it >originally was and the the B music was repeated to allow an additional >progression (and longer dance) when it was turned into a triplet. Perhaps >Toby Koosman (who was in the band) can give us more information. Hi Jonathan. Glad to be back. I was one of the unlucky souls who subscribed to the digest and have missed everything said since last friday, 'till now. To clarify, this version of Shrewsbury uses two As and one B, and yes, according to Karan, it was a longways before it was a triple minor. She says her sources are Playford and the Pride and Prejudice sequence people have mentioned. "The set and step-and-honor are interpretation." Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:31:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:31:36 -0500 From: renee-AT- ai.mit.edu (Renee Camus) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RenDance?; and the Tomlinson Book To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603151531.KAA02473-AT- guppy.ai.mit.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sheila Beardslee-Bosworth mentioned something about a RenDance List? I'm fairly new to the whole internet thing. Is this a list like this one, or a rec. or alt. news group? (Not that I really know the difference...) How can I log on to this? (I heard about the ECD list from the Morris Discussion List) Thanks. Also, Mary Beth Goodman asked about the Kellom Tomlinson book by Jennifer Shennan. I've seen the book, but haven't read it. I'd like to. Mostly, I remember meeting her in 1992? when she had pretty much just discovered the notes, and begun working on it (I think). It was at the International Early Dance Institute that Elizabeth Aldrich and Charles Garth used to put on at Goucher College in Maryland. Ms. Shennan gave a talk and demonstration. I believe she had discovered some notes that belonged to this man, Kellom Tomlinson, who I think was a dancing master in the Eighteenth Century. I think they are his choreographies of court dances in Feuillet notation, not so much English Country Dances. Ms. Shennan is from New Zealand, and possibly Mr. Tomlinson was, too. I don't know. Unfortunately I don't remember that much about it. Hope this was helpful. :) Renee Camus renee-AT- ai.mit.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:22:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 23:14:49 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: RenDance & Baroque mailing lists To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603151623.LAA10516-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199603151531.KAA02473-AT- guppy.ai.mit.edu> In email on Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:31:36 -0500, Renee Camus wrote: | | Sheila Beardslee-Bosworth mentioned something about a RenDance List? | I'm fairly new to the whole internet thing. Is this a list like this | one, or a rec. or alt. news group? (Not that I really know the | difference...) How can I log on to this? (I heard about the ECD list | from the Morris Discussion List) Thanks. | Renee, To subscribe to the RenDance list, send e-mail to: listserve-AT- morgan.ucs.mun.ca (no subject line) For your message, simply put: subscribe rendance There's also a Baroque dance mailing list. To subscribe, send e-mail to: csmall_feuillet-AT- indiana.edu (no subject line) Include the message: subscribe csmall_feuillet Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:18:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:05:16 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: what makes a dance difficult? To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For two years now, as part of preparing for the request hour at our dance, I've been creating a card file in Hypercard - a card for each dance. (It's up to 425 dances now.) The wonderful thing about a computer is that sorts are easy. So I set up the fields so that I could sort for various aspects, like modern printed source, sequence of sections of the tune, formation and level of difficulty. In Boston, we have a tradition of alternating longways dances with closed set dances. This enables (some might say forces) us to explore the obscure depths of the repertoire, most of which are in the set dances (Maggot Pie, New Wine in Old Bottles). So a sort by formation is kind of important if one is going to call in the Boston Centre. But level of difficulty is a matter of opinion. So I want to ask all of you: What makes an English Country dance, Playford or otherwise, easy? What makes a dance difficult? On a scale of 1(easy) to 6(very hard), how would you rate Mr. Beveridge's Maggot? Why? Apley House? Why? Hole in the Wall? Why? Prince William? Why? Margaret's Waltz? Why? The Quaker's Wife? Why? Picking Up Sticks? Why? **************** Man soll dem Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben. **************** **** The Truth in Photography: Dust spots are always attracted to sky areas : - ( **** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:23:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 21:21:40 -0500 From: LIPWAK-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603160221.VAA09927-AT- emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I get just the digest? Thank you. John L ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:25:50 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:25:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: RE: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F636.0B271D30.13-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT [Emily wrote] >In Boston, we have a tradition of alternating longways dances with closed >set dances. This enables (some might say forces) us to explore the obscure >depths of the repertoire, most of which are in the set dances (Maggot Pie, >New Wine in Old Bottles). So a sort by formation is kind of important if >one is going to call in the Boston Centre. I would be interested in hearing whether this is traditional elsewhere. Certainly I'm used to trying to maintain the use of a variety of formations, but not necessarily by strict alternation. >But level of difficulty is a matter of opinion. >So I want to ask all of you: >What makes an English Country dance, Playford or otherwise, easy? >What makes a dance difficult? What great questions! I hope this kicks off a good discussion. Of course, there isn't a simple answer. When you say a dance is easy, do you mean: Easy for experienced English dancers? Easy for new English dancers? Easy to teach? Easy to do at all? Easy to do well? Easy once you get it? And similar questions apply for how difficult it is. Here are some factors, not in any order. FORMATION: If an as-many-as-will dance has the same complexity as an n-couple set it may seem easier because people get to keep the same position longer and practice it more. Triple minors may tend to confuse new dancers even if they're quite simple. COMPLEXITY: How many bits does the dance have? If there are a lot, it's harder to remember them all and keep the order straight. Has something deliberately been done to make them difficult, perhaps by the antic Pat Shaw? (Canons or rounds typically introduce difficulty, as seen in "John Tallis's Canon", "Round Pond", or "Mr. Ganiford's Maggot.") It seems to me that "Parson's Farewell" has high complexity as well as a lot of novelty (see below), but I don't have references here and don't remember the dance well enough to justify this claim. A favorite dance of mine, "Joy After Sorrow", also has high complexity and novelty, and requires counting to one and two-thirds, so it seems to be quite difficult for most people. Are many different things happening at once? Is it physically possible for one person to call the dance? NOVELTY: If the components are all standard, the dance may seem easier to experienced dancers because they only have to learn the order, not the individual pieces. (New dancers have to learn the individual pieces anyway.) Forward-and-back, siding, and arming dances (henceforeward FSA) at least have a a familiar structure which can rescue experienced dancers even if they have trouble with the verses. For experienced dancers, "The Black Nag" is pretty easy because the components are standard and there aren't that many of them. For new dancers, it can be difficult because they don't know any of the pieces and you have to teach the hey, which can be troublesome. Many experienced dancers (including me) seem to have trouble with Colin Hume's lovely and satisfying "Mayfair," which is, I think, because of the novelty of the figures. Over in contraland, there's a tendency (at least here in the San Francisco Bay area and apparently in Boston) toward standardization on fairly equal duple-minor improper dances with at least a partner swing. When callers try triple-minors, proper dances, or unusual figures like the half figure eight, there's trouble. Sometimes novelty produces a dance that's harder to "get" but easy enough once gotten. An example is "Barbarini's Tambourine," where people often have initial problems with the opening figure (first corners cast off around their partner and then half figure eight to end in their corner's place), but which flows smoothly once gotten. Another interesting case is "The Punchbowl," which has lots of novelty, since it's a duple minor where you deal with something like three other couples during each round of the dance, and there's an unusual weaving figure. ("Barham Down" has some similar problems.) This tends to take quite a while to teach and is prone to break down if you have dancers who aren't confident about where they need to end up. Once enough people have it, everyone can fall into a "Punchbowl" trance and just do it without much conscious effort. MUSIC: How well does the music prompt the dance? Are there landmarks in the music that say to do something _now_? Do major actions start in the beginning of a phrase or the middle? "Joy After Sorrow" suffers somewhat from this. Is there just a _lot_ of music for some actions and not that much for others? (I remember feeling this way about "Volpony".) FLOW: Does the dance require sudden changes of direction? Does it lead the dancers to do the right thing next? TIMING: Is the timing relatively consistent, or do the dancers need to change speed very much? Is there "too much time" for some figures or "too little" for others? This is likeliest to screw up new dancers. Sometimes there's little enough time that it makes the dance physically challenging. I've probably gone on long enough on this general topic. On your specific questions: >On a scale of 1(easy) to 6(very hard), how would you rate Mr. Beveridge's >Maggot? 3 >Why? There's some tricky timing, especially at the beginning. >Apley House? 2 >Why? It's a bit more complicated than "Hole in the Wall", but doesn't have a lot of novelty or complexity, or major timing challenges. >Hole in the Wall? 1 >Why? The only difficult thing about it is that, at the tempo ordinarily used, there's way too much time and it can be difficult to fill that gracefully without adding irrelevant embellishment. (A few years back Jody McGeen did a short course on ECD with baroque steps, and suddenly the timing on "Hole in the Wall" all made sense.) >Prince William? 3 >Why? The normal tempo makes the dance unforgiving if people screw up. The novelty of the contra corners (which the 1s start from the top, man taking right of way) sometimes confuses people. >Margaret's Waltz? 2 >Why? Excellent flow. "Ladies chain" might be novel to exclusive English dancers, but not difficult. Music marks every figure. >The Quaker's Wife? >Why? I don't know this dance. >Picking Up Sticks? 4 >Why? A lot of novelty, including multiple diagonal exchanges, the shuttle-and-skip figure, and the sheepskin hey (which new dancers never seem to get the first time). Medium complexity. -- Alan PS: Will you make your Hypercard stack available, perhaps through anonymous ftp, when it's done? Does it include publication information and author for modern dances? Do you have instructions and music for the dance that totally baffled me when I visited Boston in May of 1994, which involved a hey for three along the diagonal of the set? -- APW =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 00:16:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 00:14:11 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Triple minor or triplet? (was Shrewsbury Lasses) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603160814.AAA27338-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >To clarify, this version of Shrewsbury uses two As and one B, and yes, >according to Karan, it was a longways before it was a triple minor. She > ... >Toby Koosman There's something else I'd like to see clarified (if this is even possible): when we say "triple minor" do we mean a long line subdivided into triple minor- sets, or do we mean "triplet," i. e. longways for three couples (six dancers)? The way it seems to me, "triple minor" means a long line subdivided into three- couple groups. But I've occasionally seen or heard it being used with reference to three-couple sets. Is there any general agreement about this term? Alex Clark ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 05:07:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:10:34 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Triple minor or triplet? (was Shrewsbury Lasses) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >There's something else I'd like to see clarified (if this is even possible): >when we say "triple minor" do we mean a long line subdivided into triple >minor- sets, or do we mean "triplet," i. e. longways for three couples (six >dancers)? > >The way it seems to me, "triple minor" means a long line subdivided into >three- couple groups. But I've occasionally seen or heard it being used with >reference to three-couple sets. Is there any general agreement about this term? > >Alex Clark Minor sets are longways sets for "as many as will" divided up in "minor" groups. Duple minor is division by 2, triple minor is division by 3. "Triplet" is a term invented by Ted Sannella to describe, in his ineffable Ted way, a closed longways set of three couples. "Three-couple set" is the term used in English Dancing, since triplet is really only for Ted's inventions and those in his style. I like to stick to these differences since doing this 1) shows an understanding, on the part of the leader, of the provenance of these terms, 2) creates a knowledgable group of dancers (i.e. they understand that triplets are contra-dance-type affairs and three couple sets are English-dance-type affairs) and 3) is in line with the other terminological differences between the two styles. Where I dance, for example, "star" is still barely accepted for "hands across" and then only in the contra-y kinds of English Dances. "Back-to-back" is still the only term, even though everyone knows that there's another one in the other culture, "turn by the left" is still there even though we all know about "allemand". To me a triplet is something radically different in style from English 3 couple sets. For instance, triplets come in generally only one tempo (brisk), regularly have swings, are numbered (and cheers always follow the announcement of the number). 3 couple sets come at a variety of tempi and two different formations (longways and round) and have names. I have to admit that I don't regularly contra dance in the Boston area, only here on the Cape where I live, so triplets may have acquired names since I last regularly danced up there. But the variety of tempi I believe still holds (St. Margaret's Hill/Picking Up Sticks) as well as relatively infrequent swings. Any other differences? In one of the introductions to the Country Dance Books, I forget which volumn, Sharp clearly lays out this major/minor set distinction. ************ Man soll dem Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben. ************ The Truth in Photography: Dust spots are always attracted to sky areas : - ( ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:30:59 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:30:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603161632.LAA28883-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:05:16 -0500, Emily L. Ferguson wrote: | What makes an English Country dance, Playford or otherwise, easy? | What makes a dance difficult? I want to give this more thought and reply again, but the first thing that occurs to me is the flow of the choreography. I've done some very complex dances that were difficult to learn and never very satisfying to dance. I've also done very complex dances that were easy to learn and a joy to dance. The biggest difference, for me, is how intuitive the choreography was. In some cases, the next move seems to be so perfect that nothing else would be as good. You flow from one part of the dance to the next smoothly and immediately. After you've done it a few times, it feels natural, and it's hard to imagine doing any other sequence of patterns. Other dances have the feeling of an assemblage of challenging bits and pieces that bear no relationship to one another. You can never relax and flow with the dance, because there is no flow in the choreography. I've found this to be true, not only in ECD but in every other type of dance I've done: Renaissance, Baroque, Ballet, Modern and international. So, I feel like one part of the answer to your question is the quality of the choreography. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:54:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:54:36 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Triple minor or triplet? (was Shrewsbury Lasses) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603161754.AA24937-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) writes: >There's something else I'd like to see clarified (if this is even possible): >when we say "triple minor" do we mean a long line subdivided into triple >minor- sets, or do we mean "triplet," i. e. longways for three couples (six >dancers)? >The way it seems to me, "triple minor" means a long line subdivided into >three- couple groups. But I've occasionally seen or heard it being used with >reference to three-couple sets. Is there any general agreement about this >term? You are correct "triple minor" refers to a longways set subdivided into "minor" sets of 3 couples. In the same way "duple minor" means a longways set subdivided into minor sets of two couples (hands-four). As far as I know this is the standard usage and to refer to a triplet (3 couple) dance as a triple minor dance would be incorrect and confusing. Jonathan My email address will be changing soon to j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu. To ensure that I continue to get your mail use the short form address j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 12:30:01 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:29:53 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For me, there are two ways a dance can be difficult: it can be difficult to teach, and it can be difficult to dance. Since I believe that ideally in ECD the leader is a teacher rather than a caller, and that good teaching (and good dancers!) should enable the teacher to shut up and let the dancers concentrate on the dance and its connection to the music, the question (for me) becomes: how hard is it to get a dance into the dancers' heads, & how hard is it for them once it is there? As Fried Herman puts it, "It's easy if you know where you're going."! Thus the difficulty of the dance is relative to the skill of the teacher and the dancers to some extent. Because people learn things like dance movements in many different ways, what is easy for one teacher may be hard for another, and concepts that some dancers find difficult to grasp are easily comprehended by others. I feel that I know a dance when my concept of it includes a sense of the movement from each position as it flows with the music, and I feel that I know how to achieve that motion in any of the positions. If I have the figures in my head but don't know how to move to dance them as I feel them, or if I don't have a feel for how they fit together, then it is either a new dance or a difficult dance for me. Dances which I feel that I can dance well are the dances which I regard as "easy", but that doesn't mean that they are easy to teach, or that someone else would find them easy. Similarly, dances that I find hard could be easy for you. Some dances, e.g. Barham Down, appear to me to be difficult to teach because they require an unusual amount of cooperation between all of the dancers to enable the dancers in the more demanding role to get to the right place at the right time in a graceful manner. Others are difficult because the figures are not confined to the minor sets and some dancers become spatially disoriented in them (e.g. The Punch Bowl). Some, like Pat Shaw's Kaleidescope, are almost trivial in the figures themselves but are mind-boggling because the figures depend on the particular gender make-up of the minor sets. Some, like Dutch Crossing, require not only a lot of cooperation from the set as a whole, but a lot of faith and a good sense of spatial symmetry, although the figures themselves are not particularly difficult. Yet others, like Argeers, require the memorization of a particulary long string of moves that may seem to be rather arbitrarily chosen. I recall that the "Experienced" ECD class at CDSS' Buffalo Gap E&A week a couple of years ago spent a good fraction of one week working with Helene Cornelius on "The Lover's Farewell" from Shaw's "New Wine..." collection, and I was very interested to note that Shaw rated it himself as 2 on a scale of 1 to 5 in that collection. We also worked on Tom Cook's "Aughton Green" with somewhat less success, possibly because some of the figures were difficult for individual dancers to fit smoothly into their overall concepts of the dance. Colin Hume's "Dunant House Waltz" enjoyed a reputation not so long ago as a difficult dance, as I recall from the play it got at that time on rec.folk.dancing, but I find it easier to teach to fairly inexperienced dancers than almost anything with a double figure 8. If a dance requires an unusual degree of cooperation & synchronization between dancers who only dance together in passing, as in longways duple & triple minor set dances, then that probably qualifies it as "difficult" even if you find the figures easy. For some, "Hambleton's Round O" falls into this category. As far as listing the difficulty of the named dances is concerned: I also don't know "The Quaker's Wife", but with the remaining dances, it seems to me that it is the difficulty of teaching that is the uppermost question, and that depends strongly on both the teacher & the dancers, and I feel that a range could be applied to each of at least + or - 1 in degree of difficulty depending on these factors. I find in my own teaching that the hardest part is anticipating the "squirrel in the road" moves that some of the (possibly more creative?) dancers will come up with. In my mental walk-throughs, ALL of the dancers are neatly in place... An afterthought: for me, perhaps the most fun in learning a new dance comes in the period between when the basic figures of the dance have been learned and when I am able to fit them together into a coherent whole. I think it's really fun to work out the details! Happy dancing! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:37:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:34:28 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603170034.AA14525-AT- world.std.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hmmmm. An interesting topic/question, Emily. Beveridge has a couple of movements that do not exactly flow, to my mind, and even if one works hard (not necessarily what I want to do dancing) the reward for getting it right is not great. I usually avoid dancing it. Apley House is easy, fits the music, nothing weird about what one does, no tricksy timing. Fun, easy, nice. Hole in the Wall- less easy than it seems just reading the figure. Timing is everything and it's hard to stretch it out to fit the music. Prince William- I like it a lot, it has some very satisfying movements. Not hard-hard, but not easy for beginners. Margaret's Waltz and Quaker's Wife- I don't really "know" them well enough to comment. (How, you may ask, have I avoided them dancing in Boston? Well......) Picking Up Sticks- Charity says it's not really hard, I disagree. I think the combination of a unique hey and a fair number of different figures makes it hard. It was a dance that daunted me when I was a beginner; it still challenges me to think hard all the way through- though, unlike Beveridge, I feel the reward is greater. Easy dances- Mad Robin, Good Man of B., Indian Queen. All very straightforward figures, timing smooth and easy, not too fast and not too slow. Harder- but I love them- Hudson Barn, Knives and Forks, From Aberdeen. In all of these, the payoff in enjoyment is worth the work of getting the figures and music tied together. And since when did we have a tradition of longways followed by set dance? Mary S. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:34:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:37:25 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Hmmmm. An interesting topic/question, Emily. Beveridge has a couple >of movements that do not exactly flow, But so neat to do! The handing up before the whole skipped figure of 8, hardly flows until you do it really well. The solo turn single, how do you interpret that? Throw it away the way Chris does, or play it for its flirtatious or stately possibilities? >to my mind, and even if one >works hard (not necessarily what I want to do dancing) the reward for >getting it right is not great. Hmmm... To me the reward is magnificent. --------------------------------------------------------- > >Apley House is easy, fits the music, nothing weird about what one >does, no tricksy timing. Fun, easy, nice. Apl is hard to me, fussy, lines up to the presence with the opportunity to lunge, whether to cloverleaf or not, where do you end up on the lines, do you relate to partner or the person you lead/follow in the cast, what do you do when it's crowded on the fall backs at the opening, very fast. ---------------------------------------------------------- > >Hole in the Wall- less easy than it seems just reading the figure. >Timing is everything and it's hard to stretch it out to fit the >music. I think it's a 3 because of this. ---------------------------------------------------------- >Margaret's Waltz and Quaker's Wife- I don't really "know" them well >enough to comment. (How, you may ask, have I avoided them dancing >in Boston? Well......) I chose these because one has waltzing, the other ranting. > >Picking Up Sticks- More than any dance I know, this one succumbs to poor leadership. I think it is hard, but has charms which make it very accessible when presented well. > >Easy dances- Mad Robin, Good Man of B., Indian Queen. All very >straightforward figures, timing smooth and easy, not too fast and >not too slow. > >Harder- but I love them- Hudson Barn, Knives and Forks, From Aberdeen. >In all of these, the payoff in enjoyment is worth the work of getting >the figures and music tied together. > Opinion - what a wondrous variety. I'm hoping here for more concrete standards. Does CS siding make a dance more difficult, just by being there? Does ranting & waltzing make a dance more difficult just because it's there? Do rapid sequences of figures make it harder? How about 3/2 time? Triples turned duple? Of course, if the sequence of figures seems inevitable, i.e. flows with some ineffable logic, the dance may not seem as difficult as one the sequence of which doesn't. But when does some tricky transition, which flows with practice but seems strange at the learning, make a dance more difficult? Of course, good presentation, (teaching, if you must) can make a dance seem easier, but it seems to me that for a leader to achieve that illusion s/he has to be clear about the true difficulty of the dance. This is where my notion of classifying dances by level comes in. In my schedule most of them are 3s, and only four or five of them actually achieve 6 status. ************ Man soll dem Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben. ************ The Truth in Photography: Dust spots are always attracted to sky areas : - ( ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:38:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:39:18 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960317133918.100f-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT One aspect of "easy" vs. "difficult" we have avoided mentioning so far: It is the quality of instruction. We've all seen good teachers make "difficult" dances relatively easy, and easy dances relatively difficult. It's not the daytime classes so much as the evening dance parties at dance camps where this phenomenon occurs. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:53:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:52:28 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603172352.AA11373-AT- world.std.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Onne of the problems for me to rate dances for difficulty may be that I am only a dancer, never a teacher. So I see dances only from the learning perspective. Emily asks about Cecil Sharp siding: I do not see this as a difficult figure at all, thus I don't see that it contributes to a dance's difficulty rating. Ranting is another issue. I have never satisfactorily mastered a rant step (too old, fat and arthritic?), and thus any rant step dance is hard for me. Though an English waltz step is not intuitive, it does not to me seem hard to learn, or to contribute to dance diffi- culty. The last three, however- 3/2 time, rapid sequences of figures, and triples turned duple- all significantly add to difficulty. Something we are not talking about here (yet?) is to what level of dancers the dances are difficult. Beginners are still learning basic figures, and the timing of dances, and staying on the music. More experienced dancers, though they may really enjoy learning more complex dances, have an end-of-evening burn-out point when anything not known is more than they want. Emily, I'm curious- what are your 6 dances? And give us a few 5s and 4s as well. Mary S. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:09:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:12:24 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >One of the problems for me to rate dances for difficulty may be >that I am only a dancer, never a teacher. So I see dances only from >the learning perspective. This is a very valuable perspective to me. > >Emily asks about Cecil Sharp siding: I do not see this as a difficult >figure at all, thus I don't see that it contributes to a dance's >difficulty rating. Ranting is another issue. I have never satisfactorily >mastered a rant step (too old, fat and arthritic?), and thus any rant >step dance is hard for me. I, personally, think, from watching dancers who are learning to rant, that the step is hard to grasp for most people. Maybe not for those who come from international folk dance, maybe even not for Scotties who skip-change every day, but the general English or contra dancer? Stepping in place is tricky, travelling with that step is trickier still - also showing off one's footwork, I think, embarasses some people and makes it even harder. >Though an English waltz step is not intuitive, >it does not to me seem hard to learn, or to contribute to dance diffi- >culty. It seems, also, to me (from watching people at dances), that waltzing in line of direction confuses them for a while, especially the idea of moving continuously forward. > >Emily, I'm curious- what are your 6 dances? And give us a few 5s and 4s >as well. > >Mary S. OK Level 6s Step Stately Old Noll Aily Level 5s Barham Down Chigwell Row Monica's Delight Oil the Locks Siege of Limerick Beveridge - Sharp style Level 4s TV Diamond Quite Carr-ied Away Slaughter House Sticks Night Cap Old Mill Mayfair Tallis' Greensleeves & Yellow Lace Dick's Bryon's Boutade Easter Thursday Fandango Hambleton's LJ Rag DeJersey Fandango Ganniford All the level 6s, I think, are there because they are my idea of very hard to dance well as well as, in the case of Step Stately, filled with stuff to keep track of. ************ Man soll dem Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben. ************ The Truth in Photography: Dust spots are always attracted to sky areas : - ( ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:11:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:10:31 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960317231029_248602095-AT- mail02.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Emily- While I'm in total agreement with all those who mentioned that the degree of difficulty of a dance depends on a great many factors, one of the most important seems to be, not just the complexity of figures but the ease of transition from one to the next - the choreography. When the figures flow into each other following the line of momentum, that dance seems easy because it requires more effort to 'go wrong'. Dances that may not seem that smooth to begin with often can be so after a few rounds and that discovery is one of the delights of English dance. And while the leader must choose his/her words carefully, the dancers must discover what works for each of them, whether it be thinking in terms of space (inside/outside) or direction (right/left). Again that revelation is part of the joy of the dance - the Aha. No one has made an issue over repetition but I think that it is important. Set dances are more difficult (as a general rule) simply because the lack of repetition doesn't allow for the "muscle memory" to kick in. In the class that Joyce Crouch and I teach for beginners, in the early going, we only dance 2-or 3- couple set dances that have a repeated chorus such as Upon A Summer's Day and Rufty Tufty. I also find that the symmetry of the dance contributes to it's difficulty: the more symmetrical, the easier; not only because there are fewer new figures to learn but also there seems to be a visceral reaction when the geometry of the dance is not in balance. I am finding that I have trouble with some of these triple minor dances that are being danced as duples for that reason. I would like to dance/teach some of them as triple minors to see if that feeling of something being out of kilter disappears. And now for something completely different: what do you do when you have someone in a class who is hopeless? We are having to deal with a person who, after seven weeks is still clueless but who has been hostile and angry from the start. Any suggestions? Mary Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:20:54 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:20:44 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT (Please pardon if multiple copies of this arrive. I seem to be having some difficulty posting tonight. -- EBA) On Sun, 17 Mar 1996 EngDancer-AT- aol.com wrote: [editorial snip] > And now for something completely different: what do you do when you have > someone in a class who is hopeless? We are having to deal with a person who, > after seven weeks is still clueless but who has been hostile and angry from > the start. > Any suggestions? > > Mary Jones > > > Mary, Perhaps only whatever comfort there is in knowing that you're not alone in having to deal with this sort of problem. Doesn't every group have its share (we'd like to export some from time to time!)? Perhaps a teacher could talk to the Hopeless One (the HO, in the rest of this entry) on a personal basis, in a way which doesn't make the HO feel as "singled out" as a direct approach during a class or walk-through, or even a dance. One of the teachers in this area does attempt to teal with this situation sometimes by direct intervention & guidance during a dance, if everyone else has it but can't get the HO going by their example. Of course, there is always the chance that the reaction will be even more anger & difficulty; there is also the possibility that the HO will take offense & leave, never to return... which may actually solve the problem, if not in the manner originally intended... which opens up the danger of using this approach deliberately to try to drive out those who don't respond to the teaching & as a result hold back the whole group from the achievement & enjoyment that they might otherwise realize. This opens up some very interesting questions about what the social responsibilities are in groups of this sort. At what level does the goal of dancing take precedence over the goal of building & maintaining a community that can support the tradition of dancing? If the community is too exclusive, it will die from its lack of acceptance of new life; if it cannot maintain a sufficient quality of dancing to maintain the interest of those who want to grow both individually & collectively from the experience, it may lose its more talented members and descend to a level of mediocrity that is insufficient to maintain the interest of the remaining dancers enough to keep the group alive. Many dance communities work hard to be welcoming and as nearly all-inclusive as they can be, and the openness and friendliness of these communities is wonderful for newcomers and for many folks who have a hard time finding community in other aspects of their lives, a problem which is not necessarily located in the individual. But those who require a continuing sense of personal growth become excluded as they reach the limits of the community just as realistically as the untallented are excluded by a community that sets standards that they cannot meet. It is easy enough to say "dance snobs" at the former, and dismiss them with hardly a second thought in a wave of political correctness, but in fact the presence of a few really good dancers in a group can do far more than raise the overall level by the amount of their skill -- the other dancers aill tend to dance better than they normally do and will have more fun, and will begin to get a sense of how & why to try to dance better. I know from my own experience that I have a lot more fun at the best of English Country dances than I do at contradances that really go well (& which I do enjoy thoroughly), & I have as a goal in teaching to try to get some of this experience across to others. However, this requires a significant improvement in the general level of dancing that is not easily reached with the participation of a HO or two, or in dances that always assume, and often have, a significant number of absolute beginners. Interestingly enough, this problem seems to me to be solved more effectively among musicians than among dancers; if a group sounds bad, they don't get gigs; if they don't get gigs, either they figure out why not & fix it, often by changing personnel, or they vanish as a group. Informal groups which don't depend on gigs do depend on the satisfaction being sufficient to sustain the group, & that requires a certain compatibility, in which the musicianship is probably more important than the social compatibility. So what is it that makes the dancers so different, or are they, in fact that different? No answers here, Just lots more questions... Eric Arnold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:24:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:21:00 -0500 (EST) From: Stewart Dean Subject: This list cries out for a digest To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9603181226.AA24433-AT- mhv.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Please might there be a digest format available....? didn't see that option in the signup reply //"Hoeheren Orts" is an almost obsolete term, from Prussian and the Kaiser's // times, meaning "by the authorities", or "by the powers that be"; this term // was often used to indicate personal involvement of the emperor. ("Man war // hoeheren Ortes nicht erfreut" == "His Majesty was not amused".) // ---from Otto Stolz by way of the comp[.risks newsgroup // Stewart Dean Kingston NY Homepage: http://www.mhv.net/~sdean/welcome.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:25:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:23:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: EASY HARD DANCES AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT well, i was gonna try and just lurk, but it's not going to work. re: easy vs. hard dances: just a few tiny observations: 1. hole in the wall is always excruciating because of the speed of the music. someone noted that with "period" stepping it fits just fine, but i've heard the piece played as part of whatever whole piece it was extracted from, and it's played much faster. why do i think this was handel or someone equally entertaining? was that composer stealing, er, borrowing an earlier tune? i would love to do the dance at a faster speed sometime and see how it works. 2. good man of b. is only easy if you have enough people who remember what to do. i have found that beginners, especially the guys, because they have to move immediately after the 1st couple, have trouble remembering to go, and everyone tends to get behind on the figure-8 bits. so it's a hard easy dance. re: awful dancers: ooh, this is a real toughie. eric wonders if dancers are different from musicians. you bet they are. nobody's paying THEM to come. there's no competition, and we NEED their money. unless you have a performing group, it's pretty darn hard to exclude anyone. so you might as well try to INclude them. yes, it's a form of social work sometimes, and there's folks who just Never Get It. but some of those folks enjoy themselves SO much that they're worth 3 of person X, who's a dance snob, or always bored, or rather full of themselves. it's a trade-off, and remember, it IS called social dancing. in baltimore, we had one fellow who went from seemingly autistic, never spoke, didn't have the slightest clue of How To Do It, to being able to lead beginners through an average dance, and speak to them before and after the dance. it took two years, and then he took off for scottish country dancing. but he went from social work to being tolerable. who's to say he didn't belong there, or have something, however small, to add to the dance? i myself get frustrated with the perpetual beginners (10 years and they STILL don't have a clue), but i try to remind myself that it just ain't brain surgery....there, i'm off the soapbox now. thanks, and enjoy..... sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov and not an official anything for any government agency (that's a disclaimer, folks) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:49:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:47:03 -0500 From: Barbara Ruth Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Etiquette Suggestion To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply to: Etiquette Suggestion I'm new to this list (which I gather is itself rather new) and haven't posted before, but I'd like to make a request or suggestion that posters include a signature line. Since the posts always come from ECD-AT- SSR etc. etc., it's not otherwise obvious who the correspondents are without digging. I don't know about other people, but I find it disconcerting to read anonymous messages and would like to get to know the other people contributing to this list. Barbara Ruth New Haven, English, Morris, Contra (and most recently a little Scottish) dancer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:01:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:53:59 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: EASY HARD DANCES AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603181703.MAA27544-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:23:07 -0500 (EST), SHARON MCKINLEY wrote: | 1. hole | in the wall is always excruciating because of the speed of the | music. someone noted that with "period" stepping it fits just | fine, but i've heard the piece played as part of whatever whole | piece it was extracted from, and it's played much faster. why do i | think this was handel or someone equally entertaining? was that | composer stealing, er, borrowing an earlier tune? i would love to | do the dance at a faster speed sometime and see how it works. The tune for Hole in the Wall is the hornpipe from the play Abdelazer by Henry Purcell, 1695. I have never read anything to indicate that he stole the tune or based it on an earlier tune, tho that can't be ruled out. I have always heard it played fast and lively, which is appropriate since it's a hornpipe. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:18:34 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:20:21 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603181720.AA04480-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary, Concerning your comment, >And now for something completely different: what do you do when you have >someone in a class who is hopeless? We are having to deal with a person who, >after seven weeks is still clueless but who has been hostile and angry from >the start. >Any suggestions? I have sometimes been that person. Not for English Country dancing, but for some other types that require fancier footwork. The anger arises from frustration when everyone else is getting it but you're not. It is reinforced then the teacher seems to ignore your difficulties and teaches to the level of the rest of the class. At this point, I start to feel that I have already been excluded from the group. With regards to helping someone like this, my first suggestion is to change the way you describe the figures. Each of us has to form a mental picture of how the dance works, and each picture is different. Usually, there is enough similarity between our pictures that I can interpret your verbal description of your picture and create one of my own. However, for some people, the differences may be too great. Changing your description may result in a closer match with how the student sees the dance. (When the slow learner is a male, I like to use sports imagery. I still remember the double-take from one experienced dancer when I described the start of Prince William as "cross over and run for daylight".) If different ways of explaining the dance or figure fails, another possibility is to have one or two experienced dancers take the student aside and work with him individually while the teacher continues with the rest of the class. This needs to be agreed to ahead of time, however. I know some teachers who want everyone to be paying attention to them at all times and feel that private lessons only confuse the student. Something that I seems to me as not given enough emphasis is the help that the dancers give to each other during the dance. Dancers are not taught to look for clues and they are not taught how to give them. I think more needs to be done in this area. After all, we are dancing with other people. Victor Skowronski ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:19:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:00:59 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Koeppen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I2HB8P3L0W0002RO-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Eric Arnold wrote: >Perhaps a teacher could talk to the Hopeless One (the HO, in the rest of >this entry) OK, first I'd like to input that labeling someone as hopeless isn't called for. From my limited experience with English Country Dance (but fair amount with contra) and good amount of experience with swing (ECS, WCS, and Carolina shag), hustle, and Texas 2-step, I find it appalling that any ECD or contra dancer would ever be snobbish enough to call someone a hopeless dancer. I know perfectly well that I could easily be labeled as hopeless at an ECD despite that most ECD-only and contra-dance- only people haven't put in nearly as many hours practicing dance as I have, and that they'll never need to because it doesn't take as much practice. The problem is you can't really go home and practice the techniques needed to dance ECD by yourself, maybe a few, but you'll have exhausted and mastered this stuff in a few hours. So, everybody who learns it simply went to a lot of dances, and is a "hopeless dancer" until they've gained the experience by attending many dances. If it were swing, the "hopeless dancer" would be hopeless until he/she put in the hours working on balance, all of many types spins, body waves, camel walks, syncopations, etc, plus the hours in social situations. A little more related to ECD, a Scottish country dancer is going to be hopeless until they get down those padebasques (sp?) and difficult skipping steps, all stuff that they can get better at by practicing at home, of course with the social dance time also being required. I guess that what I'm getting at is that while you may get away with calling someone who never puts in the hours woodshedding hopeless, it is a misnomer for uncommitted. If the person in question has some mental or physical disability, then you may be justified but it's still not nice. Otherwise you're calling beginners hopeless, which is just short of atrocious. >on a personal basis, in a way which doesn't make the HO feel >as "singled out" as a direct approach during a class or walk-through, or >even a dance. Given that the person in question was not only a beginner but one who was behaving inappropriately, it mostly depends on a mystical sort of revelation as to what to do. Sometimes a humiliating scolding or gentle correction in front of everyone else will work, other times taking the person aside and telling him one-to-one in one of a variety of different possible ways will work best. >Interestingly enough, this problem seems to me to be solved more >effectively among musicians than among dancers... > ... So what is it that makes the dancers so >different, or are they, in fact that different? The answer's easy. Since dances are open to public participation, the dancers are less inclined to argue. You find the same problem at open jam sessions. I've found that lots of hints from many people generally work in this situation, but not always. Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:58:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Sue M. Dupre" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I2HCF2LBO60003GA-AT- SERV02.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Good afternoon, all! Just a comment regarding the level of difficulty of dances such as Apley House. I dearly love Apley House but have come to under- stand that any dance which features two couples crossing and moving to new places at the end of the figures must be carefully taught. I've seen Apley House danced countless times by mixed crowds containing beginners or people with limited ECD dance experience and watched the mad rush during the final cross & cast/cross & lead up and into the start of the men falling back as the newer dancers scramble to figure out where they should be. Thank good- ness Apley House follows that final figure with a sort of zero movement figure like the men/women falling back. In any crowd featuring a significant number of newer dancers, I consider Apley House to be a 2.5 to 3 in level of difficul- ty. Sue Dupre dupre-AT- princeton.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:18:00 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:17:50 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Hopeless and difficult - was re: what makes a dance difficult To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F845.02212990.10-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Victor wrote: >I have sometimes been that person. Not for English Country dancing, but for >some other types that require fancier footwork. The anger arises from >frustration when everyone else is getting it but you're not. It is reinforced >then the teacher seems to ignore your difficulties and teaches to the level >of the rest of the class. At this point, I start to feel that I have already >been excluded from the group. The situation of the slow learner can be painful for everybody. One of the (many) reasons I like modern ECD is that I pick up this kind of floor pattern very quickly, while learning stepping requires a lot of work for me. (I'm in awe of people who can see something demonstrated once and just do it. Curiously, I know some people like that who are amazed that people can easily pick up floor patterns.) I've attended the last couple of Stanford Victorian and Ragtime dance weeks, and haven't enjoyed having the class move on while I still haven't got the step, but wouldn't like making forty people while I got it, either. (I really need to understand it well enough that I can, as Charlie says in another post, take it to the woodshed for practice later -- something that just isn't practical when you're covering a century and a half in six days.) I don't think I get angry and hostile, but I do grow miserable -- What am I doing here? I'll never get this! -- and really don't want attention focused on me. (If I'm doing something that's basically right but has some aspect that can be improved, great, I'd love to be told that, but if I just can't yet physically do the thing at all, I don't want forty people standing around with the clock ticking while we try to figure it out.) >Something that I seems to me as not given enough emphasis is the help that the >dancers give to each other during the dance. Dancers are not taught to look for >clues and they are not taught how to give them. I think more needs to be done >in this area. After all, we are dancing with other people. Bruce Hamilton did an ECD style workshop at a BACDS weekend a few years back. One exercise was to send half the class out of the room, teach the other half a new dance invented for the exercise, then bring the other half back in and do the dance. The ones who knew the dance were prohibited from _speaking_, but could give any other clues necessary. This was entertaining in itself, and certainly gave practice in leading, following, clue-seeking and clue-giving. Of course, this kind of activity is a little extreme for a social dance, and the people who come to workshops are usually the ones who need them least. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:06:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:58:14 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: EASY HARD DANCES AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603182007.PAA00778-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199603181703.MAA27544-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:53:59 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | The tune for Hole in the Wall is the hornpipe from the play Abdelazer by | Henry Purcell, 1695. I have never read anything to indicate that he stole | the tune or based it on an earlier tune, tho that can't be ruled out. I have | always heard it played fast and lively, which is appropriate since it's a | hornpipe. | | | Peggy | I need a proofreader. The play Abdelazer is not by Purcell--only the *music* is. Geesh. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:22:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 03:15:12 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603182024.PAA01211-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <01I2HB8P3L0W0002RO-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In email on Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:00:59 -0500 (EST), Charles Koeppen wrote: | Eric Arnold wrote: | >Perhaps a teacher could talk to the Hopeless One (the HO, in the rest of | >this entry) | | OK, first I'd like to input that labeling someone as hopeless isn't | called for. |I guess that what I'm getting at is that while you may get away with | calling someone who never puts in the hours woodshedding hopeless, it | is a misnomer for uncommitted. If the person in question has some | mental or physical disability, then you may be justified but it's still | not nice. Otherwise you're calling beginners hopeless, which is just | short of atrocious. | While the use of the word "hopeless" didin't bother me as much as it did Charlie, I have to admit it's a judgement that's sometimes applied unfairly to someone who's slow or whose "brain just isn't wired that way". The only dancer I ever worked with to whom I'd apply the label "hopeless" was a person who combined several problems that you often see separately, but rarely see in one person: 1. He had not started dancing until in his 50's and was neither physically fit nor accustomed to thinking and moving in a quick, coordinated way. 2. He was totally unmusical. Apparently, he really could not tell the end of a musical phrase from the beginning, and therefore was unable to get any cues or help from the music. 3. He didn't like to take direction/instruction. I know that sometimes experienced dancers can be overbearing in their desire to "guide" beginners, but sometimes beginners are so thin-skinned that they reject all help, no matter how gently offered. 4. He had trouble focussing on what he was doing. This may have been a clinical problem, or he may just have been insufficiently interested to pay close attention. These are all problems which teachers/callers encounter regularly. Usually, a person doesn't have all of them working against him at the same time! This particular person was dancing with a small Renaissance court dance group, not ECD (though I've seen all of these problems at English and American dances). I honestly don't know what our small group could have done to turn this "hopeless" dancer into a smoothly integrated member of the group. We ended up having to disband and reform in order to escape from him without hurting his feelings. I'd be curious to know from experienced teachers/callers if you've got any successful techniques for handling people with the above-mentioned problems (not necessary all of them in one individual). Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:09:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:10:13 -0600 (CST) From: seniort-AT- newtrier.k12.il.us (Thomas J. Senior) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello All. I usually lurk on list serves, but i actually think i have a bit to add here, so i'll go out on the perverbial limb, A consideration of difficulty might include the various forms of contact; holding hands, holding gazes, etc can help people see where to go next. A few gestures from someone more experienced can help greatly (though if not requested can annoy. Subtlety is an art.). So a dance in a mixed crowd will be easier than one in a group of beginners. The difficulty scale is situationally determined. What we do at Pinewoods is vastly different than what we can do with less experienced clientele. What is difficult in Boston might well be impossible in Chicago. So your scale of difficulty depends on your group. It may be hard to get agreement on any dance accross the country. Perhaps it would be wise to shrink the scale to 1,2,3 ? The discussion of difficulties in learning/teaching dances is very interesting though. The hypercard idea sounds great. I would like to encourage Emily to make her work available to rest of us. Thanks, Tom Those who can, do. Those who understand, teach. Thomas J. Senior New Trier High School 1232 St. Johns Ave 385 Winnetka Ave Highland Park, IL 60035-3425 Winnetka, IL 60093-4295 847-433-8704 847-446-7000 x2128 seniort-AT- newtrier.k12.il.us ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:36:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:03:44 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: EASY HARD DANCES AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960318150344.1440-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The reference to "Hole in the Wall" has come up in term's of Purcell and, possibly, George Frederic Handel's borrowing of "Hole in the Wall." Good Trick! We just passed the 300th anniversary of Purcell's death (1695 - 1995). Handel was born in February 1685 (It's given as 1684 in his West- minster Abbey crypt--consistent with calendar usage of the day) and died in 1759. Thus hardly ten years old when Purcell passed on. And Handel was, many of you know, born in Halle Germany. John Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:36:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:06:33 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: EASY HARD DANCES AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960318150633.1440-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The reference to "Hole in the Wall" has come up in terms of Purcell possi- bly borrowing it from Handel. Good trick! We just passed the 300th anniversary of Purcell's death (1695 - 1995). Handel was born in Halle Germany, February 1685 (given as 1694 on his Westminster Abbey Crypt--consistent with calendar organization of the day) and died in 1759. Thus Handel was about ten years of age when Purcell died. John Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:40:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:39:46 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Charles Koeppen wrote: > Eric Arnold wrote: > >Perhaps a teacher could talk to the Hopeless One (the HO, in the rest of > >this entry) > > OK, first I'd like to input that labeling someone as hopeless isn't > called for. From my limited experience with English Country Dance (but Sorry if I offended. With the capitalization & abbreviation in the creation of the "label", I had hoped to indicate that the purpose of the label was for efficiency in the following text, and was facetious, since it wasn't being directed at a particular person. I believe that the rest of my post suggests that in fact I don't regard them as hopeless. On the other hand, it is not realistic to assume that all people have in them the latent abilities to do all things. There are some things that I am reasonably confident that I will never do, because I don't have sufficient ability to learn to do them within my lifetime. They are my disabilities; I am not called "disabled" because they are not very conspicuous things that people immediately pick up on, but they are disabilities nevertheless. Some other people can do some of these things with perfect ease, and have no comprehension why I can't do them. Because of our genetic makeup & the fact that we are all wired somewhat differently, we all have our abilities & disabilities. Considering that the entire segment of the population which does contra and English country dancing is substantially less than 1%, I would guess that there are actually many more folks out there who have rather little dancing ability but who know it, or at least have an intuitive feel that they don't have much ability for it, and it probably doesn't bother them, because they also don't want to do it. That doesn't lessen my desire to make the opportunity available to them to try it to find out, and I know that a fair number of folks who are reluctant to try at first discover that in fact they love it, and that is one of the great things about it. But we continually hear about groups which are trying to recruit new dancers, and they always wonder why some of those who try it never come back. We like it so much, we expect everybody else to, too. But it isn't so. [snip] > .... So, everybody who > learns it simply went to a lot of dances, and is a "hopeless dancer" > until they've gained the experience by attending many dances. By no means. There is an enormous difference between a beginner and a HO. One can observe the typical beginner learning things, and if you ever wondered why people bother to try to teach, there is the principle reason, probably more so even that having around you people who have been taught. Even the "slow learners" provide this, or possibly even more, satisfaction: the dancer in whom you begin to notice improvement after two or three years is not the HO, but they're out there. The HO is the one who doesn't respond to your teaching at all, yet presists in coming. Putting the label on this person in this discussion isn't, in my mind, so much labelling the person as labelling the situation. I think every teacher who takes her or his job seriously considers the HO as much as his or her own failure as a disability on the part of the HO; someone who is a HO for one teacher may very well be an apt pupil for another. But probably every teacher can think of someone who appeared to pick up nothing despite the teacher's best efforts, and this is very draining and frustrating for a teacher, and it can sidetrack the teaching effort so much that the others who are getting it get shortchanged. I feel that the original question raised has to do with how to balance the effort in a way that is most beneficial overall. [snip] > I guess that what I'm getting at is that while you may get away with > calling someone who never puts in the hours woodshedding hopeless, it > is a misnomer for uncommitted. I think you have something there. > Given that the person in question was not only a beginner but one who No, I do not grant that. > was behaving inappropriately, it mostly depends on a mystical sort of > revelation as to what to do. Sometimes a humiliating scolding or gentle > correction in front of everyone else will work, other times taking the > person aside and telling him one-to-one in one of a variety of different > possible ways will work best. This is pretty dangerous if it's someone new that you don't know yet, and still pretty risky if you think you know them. If it doesn't work, chances are pretty good that you will never see them again, or if you do, it will be at someone else's dance. I think the focus for me is how to find a way as a teacher that either makes a breakthrough to the former HO or at least helps the HO realize for him- or herself that this form of activity, at least with this teacher, is a futile pursuit. If you grant that the HO is just as mature as the teacher and just as responsible and capable of making decisions for her- or himself, as any respectful, normal adult education program ought to be, you as a teacher have a right to expect a mature adult response from your pupils, and one of the reasonable things for adult pupils to do is to choose teachers that they can learn from. Perhaps a teacher could say to someone who seems to be making no progress and who absorbs an undue share of the teacher's energy, "Bert(m/f), I don't feel that I'm doing a very good job of getting through to you. You seem to have a strong desire to dance since you keep coming back, and I wonder if you have considered trying [_fill_in_blank_] with [_so_and_so_]. I thought that might help break up the logjam that seems to have developed here..." I think what we are looking for is new, creative ideas for dealing with situations like this, which I sense is a reasonably familiar experience among dance teachers. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:07:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:07:10 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Purcell dance tunes & borrowing, etc. To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A little bit to add to the discussion about Purcell tunes & "borrowing": the tune to "The Juice of Barley" was used by Purcell as the bass line in one of the pieces that make up the "Ode to Queen Mary" (at least, I think it was Mary...). The piece in question is played with a nearly dirge-like tempo in a vinyl recording of the ode which I had long before I started dancing, and the notes on the jacket (remember record jackets?) commented that it appeared that Purcell had intended this as a joke, because he was somewhat miffed that the Queen preferred someone else's common dance music to his. I don't have the source of this at my fingertips, but I can check the jacket & see if the composer of the dance tune is mentioned there, and also if the notes themselves are attributed to someone specific. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:05:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:05:40 -0800 From: jsalt-AT- ccnet.com (John Salter) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At 1:00 PM 3/18/96, Charles Koeppen wrote: > I guess that what I'm getting at is that while you may get away with >calling someone who never puts in the hours woodshedding hopeless, it >is a misnomer for uncommitted. If the person in question has some >mental or physical disability, then you may be justified but it's still >not nice. Otherwise you're calling beginners hopeless, which is just >short of atrocious. Charles, I agree that it is atrocious to call people hopeless, but it is possible for it to be true. I've been dancing folk and ECD for a couple of years, and have met people whom I would consider "hopeless". These are not beginners - they've been doing the dances for several (more than 5) years. They are not uncommitted - they go to many dance classes and workshops. They are not mentally or physically disabled - at least to my eye. They seem quite normal, but no matter how many times the dance is taught, they just don't get it. Ever. We've asked the teachers many times (several times a year) to give them special attention and additional instruction on the dances, after most of us are comfortable with it. After a while, it is -- I shudder to think that I could say this -- just plain impossible to dance with them. They don't get it, and possibly never will. What else to do? I still dance with them, but how can I enjoy myself? What is amazing is that one of the men in question is amazingly good at waltz, but can't do any sets (such as Shiftin' Bobbins) or polka well. And one of the women can do most Greek dances extremely well, but has serious problems with many Balkan or EC dances. Go figure. ******************************************************** John Salter Building Weight Estimators, Inc ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:59:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:02:07 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >>Otherwise you're calling beginners hopeless, which is just >>short of atrocious. > >Charles, >I agree that it is atrocious to call people hopeless, but it is possible >for it to be true. I've been dancing folk and ECD for a couple of years, >and have met people whom I would consider "hopeless". These are not >beginners - they've been doing the dances for several (more than 5) years. We call them perennial beginners, but we also have perennial intermediates. We had them in international folk dancing too, and there are lots of them at the contra dances (the intermediates, I mean). I ws saddened to hear from Peggy Lamberson about her solution where she said "We ended up having to disband and re-form in order to escape from him without hurting his feelings." And even in that situation I wonder whether his feelings didn't get hurt all the same. Most people, I suspect, don't miss a trick like that, even though it may have not been done as a trick, so much as to save face. Sooner or later it comes out. But other solutions I've observed are not a whole lot nicer. The fact of the matter is that there are perennial beginners and there really is nothing one can do to bring them to be more than that. You can only seek a way to help them gracefully leave. ************ Man soll dem Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben. ************ The Truth in Photography: Dust spots are always attracted to sky areas : - ( ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:56:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:58:14 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary Stafford said ( among other things) >Ranting is another issue. And yet ranting and other types of movement, whether skipping, or skip change or more obscure things like the "touch balance"in Valpony really do belong to the world of ECD. While I occasionally sit out some of the so-called community dances, I do enjoy them when I participate. On the other hand, unless physically injured, I would NEVER pass up the opportunity to rant. And each time I see the Cornelius' do north country polka, I am amazed by the subtlety of it all. I've been known to waltz til I puke, or something like that.... so no problem there. I think we do a disservice to newcomer dancers by presenting these dances as novelties rather than as part of the body of dances we call ECD. Ranting is just as legitimate as the most stately dance. Perhaps it would help smooth out some of that prissy dancing I see around if people were exposed to it more! Mary Beth <--remember, I wear iron clad clogs and am prepared to use them! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:28:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:21:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Purcell dance tunes & borrowing, etc. To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Eric Arnold wrote: > A little bit to add to the discussion about Purcell tunes & "borrowing": > the tune to "The Juice of Barley" was used by Purcell as the bass line in > one of the pieces that make up the "Ode to Queen Mary" (at least, I think > it was Mary...). The piece in question is played with a nearly > dirge-like tempo in a vinyl recording of the ode which I had long before > I started dancing, and the notes on the jacket (remember record jackets?) > commented that it appeared that Purcell had intended this as a joke, > because he was somewhat miffed that the Queen preferred someone else's > common dance music to his. I don't have the source of this at my > fingertips, but I can check the jacket & see if the composer of the dance > tune is mentioned there, and also if the notes themselves are attributed > to someone specific. And it also got pushed and pulled a bit, and folk-processed into the slightly bawdy English folk-song "Cold and Raw". (Or possibly Purcell adapted a folk tune, but in this case my seat-of-the-pants guess is that it went the other way.) Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:58:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:50:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, John Salter wrote: > I agree that it is atrocious to call people hopeless, but it is possible > for it to be true. I've been dancing folk and ECD for a couple of years, > and have met people whom I would consider "hopeless". These are not > beginners - they've been doing the dances for several (more than 5) years. > They are not uncommitted - they go to many dance classes and workshops. > They are not mentally or physically disabled - at least to my eye. They > seem quite normal, but no matter how many times the dance is taught, they > just don't get it. Ever. We've asked the teachers many times (several times > a year) to give them special attention and additional instruction on the > dances, after most of us are comfortable with it. After a while, it is -- I > shudder to think that I could say this -- just plain impossible to dance > with them. They don't get it, and possibly never will. What else to do? I > still dance with them, but how can I enjoy myself? > > What is amazing is that one of the men in question is amazingly good at > waltz, but can't do any sets (such as Shiftin' Bobbins) or polka well. And > one of the women can do most Greek dances extremely well, but has serious > problems with many Balkan or EC dances. Go figure. Interesting. We have a dancer at contras (he doesn't, thank God, come to English) who can do many of the moves but has certain blank spots, almost all of which have to do with what direction he should be facing. So it's not at all uncommon to see a set turn into scrambled eggs around him as he stands stationary in the middle, facing the wrong way, and clearly unable to figure out which way to turn. I'd have to guess some kind of wiring problem is present. He's a very nice guy, and very bright; also very conscientious about his responsibilities to the group. In other words, he's very good about asking new people to dance. Sigh. I would guess, reading your post, that this directional disability, to coin a phrase, may be operating in the dancers you're describing as well. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:13:40 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:56:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: > Mary Stafford said ( among other things) > > >Ranting is another issue. > > And yet ranting and other types of movement, whether skipping, or skip > change or more obscure things like the "touch balance"in Valpony really do > belong to the world of ECD. While I occasionally sit out some of the > so-called community dances, I do enjoy them when I participate. [snipsnip] > I think we do a disservice to newcomer dancers by presenting these dances > as novelties rather than as part of the body of dances we call ECD. Ranting > is just as legitimate as the most stately dance. Perhaps it would help > smooth out some of that prissy dancing I see around if people were exposed > to it more! I think we do even more of a disservice to not present these dances at all. I dance in St. Louis, where the only ranting that has ever happened was when Alistair Anderson, after his concert at the local folk club, asked that the seats be removed. He then proceeded to call 45 minutes of community dances, including ranting, while playing concertina at the same time. It was a great night (among other reasons, because it reminded me just what it's like to be a beginner again) and I wish we'd do it here. The callers of the ECD group have no interest in anything but Playford, and none of the dancers (all of whom came to ECD through this group) have any idea there *is* anything but Playford. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:09:31 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:09:24 -0500 From: Linda Repasky Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I2IGRBXRYQ00I9AX-AT- rfd.oit.umass.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary Jones set off quite a debate with her question about what to do with the ECD student who is both clueless and hostile. I, too, respectfully disagree with Charles Koeppen and others who feel that there are no hopeless dancers, only beginners. If only that were so. I was a beginner not that long ago, so I remember vividly what it felt like -- frustrating to try to figure out what seemed so elusive, embarrassing to make mistakes that scrambled the set, discouraging at times that it was taking me so long to figure things out. (I went to a few local dances and gave up because I felt I was too much of a problem for other dancers). But I never, ever felt hostile toward others. Then Mary and Joyce offered their beginning ECD course, and I had countless moments of "aha!" as the figures were explained and described. Now, as a more experienced dancer, I come to the beginning class to help out. And there are all kinds of beginners -- some pick things up quickly, others try so hard and yet have trouble with timing, or remembering figures, or just concentrating. Some have high commitment, others have medium, a few low (they generally drop out of the class quickly). The one commonality is that virtually all of the people who take the classes are having fun, and it shows, even when they slip up. They know (and Mary and Joyce remind them) that they're in the class to learn, that it's a safe environment for making mistakes. So you can imagine the frustration of having a student who seems to have absolutely no investment in the process of learning, who is clearly not having fun, and who is angry and hostile about the dancing, the class, and the other dancers. She is definitely not having fun. This "clueless" student still cannot remember (or understand) how to do a simple right-shoulder corner crossing, no matter how many times or ways the movement is described. Picture her confusion when she tries to do a circular hey or a half-figure-eight. We've tried walking with her, to let her feel the movements. We've demonstrated what movements and figures look like. And yet, there's nothing there. It adds to the frustration to see seemingly minimal effort on her part, and lots of hostility toward others. Why does she dance? We also have lots of "perennial beginners" at our local dances. Many of them complain when they feel the caller is spending too much time teaching or explaining (even though they are the ones who most need this guidance). But none of these can be labeled "hopeless." Most of them can figure out where they need to be, even if their timing is off or they forget what figure they're doing. They're not great dancers, and will probably never be great dancers; they're there simply to enjoy the social and physical aspects of dancing. While at times it can be trying to dance with them (I don't particularly enjoy feeling like I'm pulling someone throughout a dance), they are just as viable a part of the dance community as the more experienced dancers. Some beginners blossom quickly, others develop over time, and a few unfortunate souls never get the hang of it. Maybe it's simply a matter of gently suggesting to the clueless one that ECD is not her forte -- not an easy action to contemplate, much less carry out. Sounds almost heartless, yet when an individual not only can't dance, but is also so angry about it, what other options are there? Linda Repasky ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:58:28 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:42:48 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ECD-AT- playford) Message-ID: <9603191142.AA26206-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SIGNOFF ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 05:18:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:18:30 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: digest request To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603191318.IAA12430-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT set digest ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:03:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:04:01 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: EASY HARD DANCES AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960319080401.123c-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT OOPS! There is no editing capability on our primitive system, so the Handel date at Westminster Abbey should have been 1684! Mea Culpa x 3. Forbes/Baker ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:07:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:08:57 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Purcell dance tunes & borrowing, etc. To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960319080857.123c-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Check out some of Purcell's compositions under the heading of "Catch," elaborate sung rounds with (musical) rests placed here and there. Sung straight, they are innocent. When sung as a round, the words appearing in the rests then make the text quite ribald! Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:04:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:03:59 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Linda, that's a wonderful contribution! The first-person descriptions of the learning process help to remind those who would be teachers (such as myself) how helpful it can be to tailor the instruction to the student. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:14:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:14:34 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603191614.AA26626-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Paul Stamler writes: >Interesting. We have a dancer at contras (he doesn't, thank God, come to >English) who can do many of the moves but has certain blank spots, >almost all of which have to do with what direction he should be facing. >So it's not at all uncommon to see a set turn into scrambled eggs around >him as he stands stationary in the middle, facing the wrong way, and >clearly unable to figure out which way to turn. I'd have to guess some >kind of wiring problem is present. He's a very nice guy, and very bright; >also very conscientious about his responsibilities to the group. In other >words, he's very good about asking new people to dance. Sigh. >I would guess, reading your post, that this directional disability, to >coin a phrase, may be operating in the dancers you're describing as well. Working at a human factors lab I have picked up a bit of the jargon and thus know that comprehension skills can be divided into two types, verbal and spatial. Verbal skills relate to reading, writing, math and in our case the sequence of figures in a dance as called by the caller. Spatial skill relate to orientation in space, relative location of objects of places in space, or in dance knowing which way to face and travel. Some people have very different levels of ability in these two areas. They may have great verbal skills, but no spatial skills or vice-versa. Most people have reasonable amounts of both, but everyone favors one over the other. This is related to, but not the same as, the left brain/right brain dicotomy. It is possible to overcome the lack of spatial skills (for instance) by the use of verbal skills, but this requires much extra effort on the part of both the dancer and the teacher(s). For example in case of peogression where the person always faces the wrong way, the caller could emphasise and the the dancer repeat to him/herself "Turn to face a NEW neighbor". This of course requires the teacher to recognise the problem, and the dancer to admit there is a problem and be willing to put in the extra effort to overcome it. It may not always be possible though, or may be too difficult. The other dancers can help out as well, by calling out the persons name or making gestures to attract their attention, etc. As a caller and a dancer I understand the frustation of not being able to get the point across to these people. I usually think that maybe if I just worded the instructions a bit differently they would understand. However at some point, when everyone else has got the dance down and the dancers are getting impatient, you have to just do the dance and let the Unenlightned One (UO, is that better than HO?) do the best they can. Additional instruction outside the dance can help, but many times the UO is the last person to think he/she needs instruction. After all they have danced for XX years and thus are experienced and know what they are doing. Telling them they need extra help quite often doesn't sink in. True beginners know they are beginners and thus come to workshops, good dancers know where they need some work and so also come to workshops, perpertual beginners think they know what they are doing and thus don't. Jonathan My email address will be changing soon to j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu. To ensure that I continue to get your mail use the short form address j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:30:19 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:33:00 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Mary Stafford said ( among other things) > >>Ranting is another issue. > And each time I see the Cornelius' Cornelii >do north country >polka, I am amazed by the subtlety of it all. > ************ Man soll dem Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben. ************ The Truth in Photography: Dust spots are always attracted to sky areas : - ( ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:21:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:56:58 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Koeppen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I2IPJFO11A0002ZY-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jonathan Sivier wrote: > It is possible to overcome the lack of spatial skills (for instance) by the >use of verbal skills, but this requires much extra effort on the part of both >the dancer and the teacher(s). For example in case of peogression where the >person always faces the wrong way, the caller could emphasise and the the >dancer repeat to him/herself "Turn to face a NEW neighbor". This of course >requires the teacher to recognise the problem, Turning to face the wrong way possibly may not be a spatial problem. If you're moving forward, and you're going to turn, it's most natural to turn toward the left if you're wieght is on your left leg and to the right if your wieght is on the right leg. So, say that to face the new neighbor the dancer has to take 4 steps across and turn right on the 4th beat. If he started on his right leg, fine, he takes three steps, his wieght is on his right leg, and then he pivots to the right a little as he steps with his left on the 4th beat. If he started with his left leg, it isn't going to work unless he subdivides the last beat into two steps. This is often why turns feel awkward sometimes but not others, or seem to feel awkward for you and about half the other dancers but the other dancers think it's just fine. It could be that the dancer doesn't really have a learning disability cause by spatial perception, but that what's really going on is that he hasn't been taught which leg to start on and always turns in the most natural direction. Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:32:13 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:31:56 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Jonathan Sivier wrote: > Paul Stamler writes: > > >Interesting. We have a dancer at contras (he doesn't, thank God, come to > >English) who can do many of the moves but has certain blank spots, > >almost all of which have to do with what direction he should be facing. [snip] > Working at a human factors lab I have picked up a bit of the jargon and > thus know that comprehension skills can be divided into two types, verbal and > spatial. Verbal skills relate to reading, writing, math and in our case the > sequence of figures in a dance as called by the caller. Spatial skill relate > to orientation in space, relative location of objects of places in space, or > in dance knowing which way to face and travel. > > Some people have very different levels of ability in these two areas. They > may have great verbal skills, but no spatial skills or vice-versa. Most > people have reasonable amounts of both, but everyone favors one over the > other. This is related to, but not the same as, the left brain/right brain > dicotomy. Good stuff, Jonathan! > It is possible to overcome the lack of spatial skills (for instance) by the > use of verbal skills, but this requires much extra effort on the part of both > the dancer and the teacher(s). For example in case of peogression where the [snip] > As a caller and a dancer I understand the frustation of not being able to > get the point across to these people. I usually think that maybe if I just > worded the instructions a bit differently they would understand. However at > some point, when everyone else has got the dance down and the dancers are > getting impatient, you have to just do the dance and let the Unenlightned One > (UO, is that better than HO?) do the best they can. But then you've given up, so in effect you're regarding him/her as a HO, not an UO. > Additional instruction outside the dance can help, but many times the UO > is the last person to think he/she needs instruction. After all they have > danced for XX years and thus are experienced and know what they are doing. > Telling them they need extra help quite often doesn't sink in. True beginners It seems what we need is the dance equivalent of John Krumm's workshop for people who were told never to try to sing again, except that we also need a way of telling them that they need the workshop in a way that is consistent with the dance community's nature/policy/desire to be open and accepting to everyone who wants to participate. So here are two things to work on: developing a workshop that works for the UO/HO set, and developing an effective approach to encourage those who need it to attend. As a final comment, even if it is a bit off the main subject of this post, I'd like to offer this opinion about good dancing, particularly regarding English Country Dance: Good dancing is not dancing without mistakes: it is making those mistakes gracefully. (;-) Creative dancing, I like to call it! Cheers! Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:41:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:41:27 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Charles Koeppen wrote: [snip of a quote from Jonathan Sivier] > Turning to face the wrong way possibly may not be a spatial problem. > If you're moving forward, and you're going to turn, it's most natural > to turn toward the left if you're wieght is on your left leg and to > the right if your wieght is on the right leg. So, say that to face Funny, but I would have said the opposite; if my weight is on my left leg, it's easier for me to place my right foot more to the right than to the left, which has to cross over my left or have them in very close proximity, which reduces my stability; but perhaps we're counting the steps differently: I'm thinking of my weight on my left foot before I turn anything, in other words still in the preceeding line of direction. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:41:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:43:28 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603191943.AA05161-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Charles Koeppen wrote: >[snip of a quote from Jonathan Sivier] >> Turning to face the wrong way possibly may not be a spatial problem. >> If you're moving forward, and you're going to turn, it's most natural >> to turn toward the left if you're wieght is on your left leg and to >> the right if your wieght is on the right leg. So, say that to face >Funny, but I would have said the opposite; if my weight is on my left >leg, it's easier for me to place my right foot more to the right than to >the left, which has to cross over my left or have them in very close >proximity, which reduces my stability; but perhaps we're counting the >steps differently: I'm thinking of my weight on my left foot before I >turn anything, in other words still in the preceeding line of direction. >Eric Arnold >Ann Arbor There are two ways to turn. You can either pivot on your inside foot, which is what Jonathan Sivier is describing, or you can plant your outside foot and push off from it, which is what football players do. I suspect that in real life we do a combination of both. However, this means that what foot you start on is irrelevant to the way you want to turn. Something that I have seen often is, during rights and lefts, the person continues holding the last hand a little too long and this spins him in the wrong direction. Whenever you are doing rights and lefts in a set of four people, those who pass on the inside will be pulled away from the center of the set by the handshake. If they do not have a clear idea where they are going, this usually means they turn the wrong way. Victor Skowronski ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:43:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:58:59 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Koeppen Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Impossible... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I2ISF1PIPM0002ZY-AT- SERV04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I said: >> Turning to face the wrong way possibly may not be a spatial problem. >> If you're moving forward, and you're going to turn, it's most natural >> to turn toward the left if you're wieght is on your left leg and to >> the right if your wieght is on the right leg. So, say that to face To which Eric Arnold replied: >Funny, but I would have said the opposite; if my weight is on my left >leg, it's easier for me to place my right foot more to the right than to >the left, which has to cross over my left or have them in very close >proximity, which reduces my stability; Think of walking along. Eventually you want to turn to face left. If you put your right foot down in front of you, the only way you can turn left is by abruptly stopping and pivoting left. This isn't natural for most. If you put your left foot in front, you continue as in normal walking to bring your right foot past your left, but as you do you pivot towards your left and then place your right foot to the side, most naturally about shoulder distance from your left. Notice that if you're doing this to 4 beats of music the 1st way allows only 3 steps of travel (three steps then pivot but don't step on beat 4) while the other allows 4 steps of travel (three steps then step and pivot on beat 4). > but perhaps we're counting the >steps differently: I'm thinking of my weight on my left foot before I >turn anything, in other words still in the preceeding line of direction. I'm not sure, I'm thinking of my weight on my left before turning too. And also, I'm not saying that you can't turn left when your weight is on your right (in fact, it's called a pivot turn), just that it's not as much like walking as otherwise, and for most beginner dancers things similar to walking will be most natural. Charlie ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:44:11 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:18:21 +0000 From: Jerry Fox Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <96Mar19.193654gmt.487890-AT- oveja.u-net.net> (1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've been interested to follow this discussion, and thought you might like a slightly different viewpoint... I live in the UK, currently in Wales but before that in Surrey, England, and have been dancing what I considered to be 'Folk Dance' since I was at university some 35 years ago. When I lived in Surrey, I went every week to a 'folk dance club', which was *not* run as a 'class', but as a social club where we all went to enjoy a pleasant evening of folk & square dance. There was no 'teacher', but each evening there was a designated 'caller' for the evening, who would try to bring along at least a couple of dances that were new or unfamiliar. We never went in much for 'international' dancing, but English Country, Playford, East Coast longways dances and East/West coast squares were all regularly on the list. Mostly we danced to records, having no regular musician. We used to try to vary the *shape* of dance, simply to provide variety; a longways followed by a square followed by a circle followed by a set dance, etc. I have just unearthed a small book where I have noted down the programme for a couple of club evenings: you may find some of the names unfamiliar, but the same applies to the names I read in your postings! 1. My own club, wide variety of ability but tried hard) Fandango Squares (I didn't note down what they were) British Sorrow Sellengers Round Quaker's Wife Old Nick's Lumber Room (I remember this as being very difficult!) Elegance and Simplicity (*I* liked this but no-one else did!) Childgrove Nonesuch Phoenix Mairi's Wedding Pins and Needles Gypsy Hill jig Circassian Circle (ALWAYS our last dance, by 'tradition') 2. A day when I went as a guest caller for a rather larger club. Live music, probably 4 or 5 piece, accordion or fiddle lead. Morpeth Rant British Sorrow Freda's Favourite Old Nick (kept trying it!) Miss Sayers' allemande Oswestry Square Long Odds '3-some' (I wonder what that was? Probably a 3-facing-3) Walpole Cottage Dorset 4-hand reel Margaret's Waltz Pins & Needles Mexican Waltz (couple dance) Cochico hornpipe Washington Quickstep Broken Sequence By the way, I would expect to walk through (ie teach) every one of these before starting the music. In a day or two I may put some thoughts about the other side of my dancing, ie going out with a band to non-dancing occasions (PTA, wedding, golf club social etc) and how one might go about giving 100 non-dancers a satisfactory evening (8-midnight) doing things they've never done before. The concept of 'difficult' then changes a bit! Jerry Fox, Monmouth, Wales ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:27:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:27:11 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603192027.AA14319-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Victor Skowronski said: >There are two ways to turn. You can either pivot on your inside foot, >which is what Jonathan Sivier is describing, or you can plant your >outside foot and push off from it, which is what football players do. >I suspect that in real life we do a combination of both. >However, this means that what foot you start on is irrelevant to the >way you want to turn. >Something that I have seen often is, during rights and lefts, the person >continues holding the last hand a little too long and this spins him in >the wrong direction. Whenever you are doing rights and lefts in a set >of four people, those who pass on the inside will be pulled away from >the center of the set by the handshake. If they do not have a clear >idea where they are going, this usually means they turn the wrong way. This is where spatial skills can come in handy. Knowing which way to face and thus which way to turn. Verbally it would be 'turn left' (or right depending on the situation), spatially it would be 'face your partner' (or whatever). Either could work, but if the dance was explained spatially (i.e. turn to face your partner) rather than verbally (men turn right, women turn left), then a person with poor spatial skills will have difficulty. That isn't to say they don't know where their partner is, just that it takes longer from them to figure that out and they don't use that method to remember the dance anyway. So they turn the wrong way, or pause and thus miss the next figure. In some cases explaining the figure differently can help, but it is my impression that people with poor spatial skills often have difficulty differentiating their right and left hands (quickly and easily) during a dance. Thus telling them to turn left won't always help. At some point figures (like rights and lefts) become part of muscle memory and this problem goes away, for most people, but some people will always have trouble. One thing that can help, in this particular situation, is for the partner who doesn't have trouble to hold out his (or her) hand behind the back of the couple being passed by for his or her partner to see. This visual cue of the hand to take can help the other person turn the correct way. Jonathan My email address will be changing soon to j-sivier-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu. To ensure that I continue to get your mail use the short form address j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:28:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:19:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Eric Arnold wrote: > Good dancing is not dancing without mistakes: it is making those mistakes > gracefully. (;-) Wow! Eric, could we frame that? Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:43:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Impossible... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To clarify: The directionally confused dancer in the original post has a problem above and beyond direction of turn: I think he actually cannot tell where the head of the set is, so instead of down the hall, he tries to march up the hall, sees everyone coming toward him, knows he hasn't got it right, and freezes in place. I think he literally doesn't know up from down, right from left, and goes into short-circuit whenever something goes wrong. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:57:44 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:56:42 -0500 From: Jailbait Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603192056.PAA10981-AT- asylum.apocalypse.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Could someone define 'Ranting', in this context? Thanks... JB - who's seen folks standing on the sidelines Ranting and raving, but not Ranting and dancing...:) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:26:03 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:24:44 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960319162443_450178380-AT- emout10.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To all who offered suggestions and new ideas about teaching and dancing with the terpsichorially-challanged, thank you. It has been invaluable to hear so many points of view and, more to the point, so much practical advice. Thanks again (and my next query will be much more innocuous, say, What do you do if rains on class night?) Mary (Pandora) Jones Amherst, Mass. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:50:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:50:17 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear Pandora, On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 EngDancer-AT- aol.com wrote: > To all who offered suggestions and new ideas about teaching and dancing with > the terpsichorially-challanged, thank you. It has been invaluable to hear so ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > many points of view and, more to the point, so much practical advice. And thank you for solving one of our problems with a pc term to replace HO & UO! Perhaps we can abbreviate it to TC? (;^} > > Thanks again (and my next query will be much more innocuous, say, What do you > do if rains on class night?) > > Mary (Pandora) Jones > Amherst, Mass. > Only proper way to do English Country Dance! Why, dance with umbrellas, of course! Eric ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:51:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:49:31 -0600 (CST) From: Helen Mayo Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Impossible... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'd like to add my two cents worth on this, since, as a dyslexic who *loves* to dance, I can easily identify with not knowing up from down or left from right. I have fairly good spatial skills, which helps some. One trick I've found, if others in the set are sympathetic, is to orient the set the same way each week, i.e. if you're used to the convention of "up the hall" being west, don't change and make it east. It's a small thing to do which can help people who sometimes can't even articulate why they're having a problem. Someone else also mentioned muscle memory, which I agree is very importent. I know that I "pattern" a dance, much in the way a kid learns to ride a bike by "patterning" coordinated muscle moves. I remember driving my husband nuts by walking through the SCA version of John Tallow's Canon over and over again, until I got it right...and it looks pretty strange when it's only one person walking through the set for four, sans music. Something that is obvious to many dancers and musicians, but not to a novice is the idea of "counting." Strange but true, and I don't think it's been mentioned explicitely in this discussion. We had one guy that had *no* sense of rhythm. He just couldn't hear the beat of the music...but he finally, through practice and dogged persistence, became an ok dancer because he counts out (to himself now :-) and through each piece. On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Paul J. Stamler wrote: > To clarify: The directionally confused dancer in the original post has a > problem above and beyond direction of turn: I think he actually cannot > tell where the head of the set is, so instead of down the hall, he tries > to march up the hall, sees everyone coming toward him, knows he hasn't > got it right, and freezes in place. I think he literally doesn't know up > from down, right from left, and goes into short-circuit whenever > something goes wrong. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:59:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:58:28 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Hopeless & Impossible (was: what makes a dance difficult?) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960319165825_356048294-AT- emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In regards to the subject of "Hopless Ones," I have seen a lot of sympathy, but very little practical advice. Perhaps I can offer a few suggestions. The vast majority of my dance instruction experience has been in the Society for Creative Anachronism, which (hopefully) encourages chivalry and courtesy. The term some of us (instructors) use for a "Hopeless One" is "Dance Challenged." Since we are trying to encourage chivalry and courtesy, telling the DC to get lost is not an option. If you're teaching a regularly-meeting group (i.e., once-a-week, twice-a-month, once-a-month, etc.), the problem can be addressed by breaking down your instruction time into segments. Say you have a three-hour session twice a month. You can: 1)have "beginners to intermediate" one night, and "intermediate to advanced" the next meeting -- beginners are welcome to come and watch, but they need to have mastered certain dances before participating in the "intermediate to advanced" class. 2)break down your three-hour sessions into hour-and-a-half sessions, with beginners and advanced on the same night, but at different hours. These first two methods work best if you publish a schedule of dances to be covered at each session. That way, dancers will know into which category they fit, without you having to assign them to a mastery level. This has worked well for me and my dancers -- the newcomers are happy, because you spend an hour and a half with them, reviewing steps, patterns, and calls, and then they get to watch the advanced dancers later, doing really neat things that they want to work on. The advanced dancers are happy because you don't keep going over the same old things week after week. (It also helps if some of the advanced dancers show up early and disperse through the beginners' sets, to help the instructions and walk-throughs go a little more smoothly.) Teaching at a seminar is a lot more difficult if you have a DC in your class. (I'm talking about -- he doesn't know right from left, can't even master a call like "Turn Single," etc.) Show a sense of humor! Say something like, "Now, those who can't get the steps right have to dance with the teacher." Try to get one of your experienced dance friends who owes you a favor to partner him. Believe me, the worse the DC, the better his partner needs to be to lead (or drag) him through the sets. (I am using "he" and "him" in a generic sense, y'all.) Sometimes, I have shown up to a dance class with no knowledge of the dance level of my students for that day. I have had to chuck my prepared lessons and do some easy dances that everyone could master. I have also found it very useful to review verbally the sequence of steps after learning one section, before going on to the next pattern; and then I have the students verbally repeat the sequence of steps with me after we have done one or two walk-throughs. That way, they can mentally master the sequence of steps, even if their feet might be a little slower to follow. It also shows me that they understand the calls, whether or not their feet can do them. The bottom line is -- these people are here to have fun, and it is my responsiblity as the teacher to make sure that happens. With a performing troupe, the solution is even more simple. Have try-outs for every dance you are going to perform, and include a few easy ones. The DC might surprise you and be able to do one. At least you could include him in the production or publicity crews. I hope this helps, and I hope others might have some more practical suggestions, too. I'm always looking for more techniques to pull out of my bag of tricks. Katrina C. Sokoll 3513 Oberlin Dr. Columbus, GA 31909 (706)324-1993 Rsokoll-AT- aol.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:53:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:52:57 -0600 From: Jonathan Sivier Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Impossible... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603192252.AA26904-AT- ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Helen Mayo said: >Something that is obvious to many dancers and musicians, but not to a >novice is the idea of "counting." Strange but true, and I don't think >it's been mentioned explicitely in this discussion. We had one >guy that had *no* sense of rhythm. He just couldn't hear the beat of the >music...but he finally, through practice and dogged persistence, became >an ok dancer because he counts out (to himself now :-) and through each >piece. This is good advice and something I always tell new dancers, that it is all right to count (to yourself) to know where in the dance you are. This is very helpful in contras where the dance is always the same length, but is also very helpful in ECD and other dance forms. Whe I was first dancing 8 years ago, I could not hear the phrasing at all. I could hear the beat, but not the musical phrases. I counted to know when to stop the current figure and go on to the next. After a while (a year or two) I stopped needingt to do that since I had learned to hear the phrases. When I began calling 4 years ago, I went back to counting because of all the other things a caller has to be thinking about. That is the workload had increased and I didn't have the mental resources available to listen to the phrases (in human factors jargon). Now that I am more experienced I no longer need to count (except on very tricky calls) because I don't need to concentrate as much on the calling and can listen to the music. Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. | | j-sivier-AT- uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) | | Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright | | Beckman Institute | | | 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male | | Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy | | Work: 217/244-1923 | | | Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:20:24 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:18:06 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603192318.AA25295-AT- world.std.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mary Beth says "Ranting is just as legitimate as the most stately dance" and a part of the repertoire of ECD. Mary Beth, I do most emphatically agree with that statement; it is just that I know I am "hopeless" as a ranter and will not enjoy being a klutz, so I do not dance rant dances if I can at all avoid them. In Boston Centre dancing, alas, dances are not identified before one has already accepted a partner and lined up, so I cannot always be so kind to myself or the set :-) Mary Stafford, a Boston Centre ECDancer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:29:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:32:09 -0500 From: eferguson-AT- umassd.edu (Emily L. Ferguson) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: what makes a dance difficult? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="u