Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 18:08:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 18:08:38 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Administrivia: Getting a digest version of the ECD list To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099EF10.6869932E.25-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Folks -- I've had a couple of requests to get a DIGEST version of this list, where all the messages are bundled together every so often and sent out as one message. I've done what was needed to make this work, so you can do it if you choose. To get the digest version, send mail to ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU with the body SET DIGEST To get the undigested version, send mail to the same place, with the body SET NODIGEST Do NOT send this command to ECD. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 18:30:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 21:30:11 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Sounding Period? To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603070232.VAA20227-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:15:45 -0800, Ray Price wrote: | Toby Koosman wrote: | | >Do people think we should try to sound period at all? | | I think that sounding period is wonderful in its place and I would never | want groups who perform 'authentically' to change. IMHO, if the dance | form is to be relevant to future generations, there is a need for us to put | ourselves (this time frame) into it. I am perplexed. One the one hand, my traditional musician side says that traditions should grow in order to prosper. And, it is exciting to watch the evolution of traditional music, particularly, for me, Celtic music. On the other, I remember a Greek teacher (Bill Arrowsmith a long time ago) pointing out that the essence of a culture is expressed in those words which are quite literally not translateable to terms in current language/culture (and that when they are translated carelessly, essence is lost). I also have a great love for Baroque and early musics performed on authentic instruments in an authentic style; and I cannot stand [for instance] Bach played by a large contemporary orchestra in a Romantic style, and especially sung with vibrato. This leaves me perplexed, or perhaps schizophrenic. My only useful thought is that it is at least important to *distinguish* between older dances done in an authentic style and those done in a contemporary style. Which is better is a personal preference item. For me, authentic performance by a demonstration troupe is preferable to multi-century mush stylizing. As a participative form, I am less clear but believe that (at a minimum) dancers should know what is authentic and what isn't--and then do what they enjoy most. David Marcus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 00:58:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 00:48:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Toby Koosman wrote: > So, how should we harmonize? Do we know what's "period"? Would that mean > sparser? One of the dances we do, Beggar Boy (or is it Jovial Beggar? It's > the one in Phrygian mode) I feel strongly should have no chording at all. > > Are people familiar with Nicholas Broadbridge's playing? I have dots to the > tunes on his Walsh recording (provided by Nicholas), which are harmonized > even more densely--way too many chord changes sometimes. But I play the > squeezebox and find his interpretation a better model for me than Bare > Necessities. > > Do people think we should try to sound period at all? Bare Necessities (or > Marshall Barron) sound, too me, Romantic, not Baroque; and Broadbridge > sounds 19th C. Steve Hickman's playing sounds like contemporary contra. > Are there other interpretations out there that any of you prefer (or despise)? Our dance band in St. Louis, the Speckled Band, takes a good deal of its inspiration from British folk revival performers, i.e. Martin Carthy & Nic Jones's guitar techniques, and Sue Harris's woodwind playing. One of our regulars has a backgroound in orchestra playing (interestingly enough, she is by far our best improviser), another in Irish music. It's a hodgepodge in a sense, but it's an effective one. And I think the styles themselves are not "authentic" in any literal sense (after all, British folk revival guitar techniques come from a cross between classical guitar and African-American blues!), but the very cross-pollinated nature of the playing is authentic. As Alistair Anderson once put it after a few beers, "The same musicians would play for the laird's dance in the hall after dinner, then go down the hill and play tunes for the lads in the pub. If they did both, they could scrape out something of a living." I think we preserve that sense of a cross between gentrified and vernacular music. In a more refined way, I get that same sense from the Broadside Band. > Is ECD a contemporary dance or historical recreation? If it's a historical re-creation (we need the hyphen), it's of necessity an extremely inaccurate one. Too much information has been lost for us to be able to reconstruct it accurately. (My $.02.) Regarding instrumentation, it has always seemed to me that the authentic instrumentation for ECD has always been "whatever the popular bands are playing right now". So in the 1800s it was small orchestras, in the 1920s it was saxophones and trap sets. Taking that to its logical end, the Albion Band's electric-guitar-and-bass experiments in the 1970s were sociologically perfectly authentic. These days, I guess it would be synths. Peace while opening up more cans of worms. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 02:36:25 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 02:38:38 -0700 (PDT) From: HUGH-AT- edsug.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <01I21HV4ZFZM003E46-AT- UG.EDS.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Toby Koosman wrote >> Some criticize the (contra inspired?) American emphasis on eye contact; >> others prefer it. (Any brits on this list?) Yes - me! Here goes with standard essay on pondside differences. Firstly you (i.e. Americans) say 'English Country Dance' where we (English) would say 'Playford'; in general if we talk about Country Dance we tend to mean Virginia Reel or whatever -- dances done by country folk. This means that you ask English people for authoritative interpretation of Playford dances, and since I have no more experience of England 300 years ago that you I don't feel in a good position to give that advice. I think that there is a cultural difference that Americans tend to take things more seriously than us, but for shorter periods -- as a sweeping generalisation they tend to have fits of enthusiasm. This shows up in dancers where most English dance clubs have a stronger social element, and less emphasis on dance than the American equivalent. The result is that here people are aware of the concept that they should look at their partner, but frequently ignore it; Americans have been taught the concept and follow the teaching to the letter -- possibly ignoring the spirit. Since you ask; I prefer the American version. Being fussy I would prefer something that didn't give the impression of having been drilled in -- that people were looking at me out of delight in my company rather than out of instructions for how to do the dance. I should also note that if someone goes to the effort of finding a foreign dance to go to then they must have some degree of enthusiasm for dancing -- in other words the foreign dancers we see will, on average, be 'better' than the local ones. Hence I see American dancers in general as being better dancers than English ones, but it is quite possible that you see exactly the opposite. The other part of the standard essay on pondside differences is that you tend to have 'English' dance on the one hand and 'American' (read Contra) on the other; we tend to have 'Country Dance' clubs which mix the two. The result is that you emphasise the differences and do Playford dances slower than us, and Contra dances faster (well, actually I mean 'more energetically' -- contras without swings are quite acceptable here and those with three swings are sometimes called as an example of how ridiculous things can get). Hugh Stewart Cambridge, England ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 04:36:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 07:35:07 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: BANDS AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: bands and harmony and other things (and i was planning on just being a lurker on this list. oh, well): as a musician, i love hearing bands who can play with the music and make it interesting. we have some wonderful musicians in the baltimore-washington area who can really run with it, and they love it when we notice. just hearing the bare melody (as some seemed to be suggesting) would be pretty darn boring, altho it's effective when it's done judiciously. as a dancer, however, i love hearing those bands do all that without losing the phrasing or the essence of the melody. our dances are more bound to a particular melody than, say, contras, so it's much more important to be able to figger out where we are. the best musicians are those who manage to give us both variety and steadiness. i love bare necessities, but they're difficult to dance to. give me liz donaldson, david wiesler, marty taylor, and many, many more. as for the authenticity question, if you're in a performance group specializing in a certain era of dance, it's all well and good to try to have a consistent style, although nobody really can decipher those old written directions. maybe it's a GOOD thing there were no camcorders back then, or the folk process might have died out long ago. and i suspect that one reason we call it ECD in the US is that we mix our metaphors; we do playford dances, and pseudo-playford dances, and newly-composed dances (send me an SSAE and i'll send you mine), and community dances, with maybe a viennese waltz or scandinavian hambo thrown in at break-time. so it makes good sense not to call all of that playford. i'll shut up now. enjoy... p.s. no, i never use caps. i'm a bad enuf typist as it is. sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not an official typist for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:06:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:04:59 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: BANDS AND MORE To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603071404.AB04972-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sharon McKinley wrote, i suspect that one reason we call it ECD in > the US is that we mix our metaphors; we do playford dances, and > pseudo-playford dances, and newly-composed dances (send me an SSAE > and i'll send you mine), and community dances, with maybe a > viennese waltz or scandinavian hambo thrown in at break-time. so > it makes good sense not to call all of that playford. I believe we call it country dancing because C# did. If I've got this story straight, he started out collecting traditional social dances--those done in living memory--and then became interested in Playford-era dances, which he began to include in his publications of "country dances", continuing to call it that even when historic dances predominated in his collections and revival efforts. A lot of confusion is wrought by failing to recognize a distinction between "historic" and "traditional". We inherited Playford from a Victorian era revival, and reformed it both in light of new historical interpretation and the contemporary contra dance "revival" (which itself owes less and less to either tradition or history). What kind of animal does that leave us with? Should we agonize over that classification? It's taken on its own life, and let's not kill it by forcing it to declare an identity. I think we all have a sensibility that certain innovations or interpretations feel "true" and others "false", either because they violate the integrity of the thing or because they are artificially, self-consciously "historic"--that is, you can err by being too modern or too period alike. I'm speaking both to the dance and the music. I agree that those who want to create a credible historic performance should take as much care to get the music right as the dancing. I would be very interested to hear a historically faithful interpretation--but I would not necessarily adopt historical practice in my own playing. Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:07:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:13:35 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Toby Koosman recently wrote: >So, how should we harmonize? Do we know what's "period"? For those who are interested in a "period" sound for the 1st edition Playford dances, please get yourself a copy of Bernard Thomas's 4-part arrangements now available (or at least Vol. 1 is) from the distinguished early music publisher London Pro Musica. These are Bernard's own arrangements, following the period style of dance collections from the early and mid-17th c., and IMHO as a professional early musician and dancer he's done a A+++ job. The music is easy to read, easy to play and simple enough to not get in the way of dancing (unlike other arrangements which Toby mentioned). It is easy to add simple ornamentation for the (endless) repetitions needed to do a dance (one or more times); and those of you who can read short score in the fly can reduce the 4-parts to chord patterns as needed. I know it's distributed by MagnaMusic (Sharon CT), and can be ordered through your local music store. The Early Music Shop of New England (aka The von Huene Workshop) is on line at vonhuene-AT- world.std.com; others are probably out there but I don't have their references handy (besides, Eric and I e-mail each other about 5x a day!). I don't remember the price and am guessing somewhere between $7-10. I've told my students to GET IT NOW! You should, too! Cheers! Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:40:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:41:51 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960307084151.19d5-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If you are going to make all that effort to get the steps as correct as possible, the costumes at least a reasonable facsimile of the period, even the decorations around the dance area (here, I have access to a late 17th century room, originally part of an English manor house), why cheat on the music of the period. Although Playford is at least 95% solo instrument lines (not counting things with a 'ground' or the inherent round in Christ Church Bells[sp.?]), we know of many period harmonizations of these tunes ("Hole in the Wall" is a particularly good example.) Would you be interested in, say, one or two violins or flutes (or one of each) for the melody/harmony/countermelody chores, a 'cello for the bass line and a harpsichord for the fill-in, extemporized harmony? What could put us in a better, cheerful, "now we got it all right" mood? Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:54:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:59:58 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Sharon, you wrote: > as for the authenticity question, if you're in a performance > group specializing in a certain era of dance, it's all well and > good to try to have a consistent style, although nobody really can > decipher those old written directions. As a EM performer and student of historical dance (I came to ECD from Ren court dance), I would strongly disagree. While the instructions in Playford don't tell you when to do a specific foot pattern (the instructions give geography telling you where to go, not how to get there!), I think it is possible to dance the 17th & 18th c. dances with an awareness and with an application of historical step patterns. Perhaps others with better knowledge of historical dance sources can provide more information. I am now working with Julia Sutton on a new edition of Lorin's dance MS (French) with complete footwork details of many English dances he observed in the last quarter of the 17th c. I can share more as I know it, but this MS does give unbelievably detailed instructions for hands and feet. Regards, Sheila B Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 07:18:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Arnold Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Authenticity etc. To: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi all! (Lots of familiar names here!) Thanks, Sheila, for the note about the London Pro Musica editions; they will be very welcome. What puzzles me is the prominence of "should" in some of the queries; eg "what should we (they) do for [fill in blank here]?" As a necessarily imperfect re-construction, the dance & music both suffer from a lack of sufficient knowledge to enable us to re-create them in a manner which would not seem somewhat strange if the event were somehow to be translated temporally back to the era when it was commonly done. One of the things that is fun to do with this material, and for some people more than others, depending on their interests, is to try to discover as many details as possible about how things really were done, and to capture as much of that spirit as possible in the re-creation. That is certainly a legitimate way to enjoy this music and dance. As someone who was on the fringes of the early music movement which started up in earnest in the 60's, I appreciate this. At the same time it is clear that the essential spirit of any age is embodied in what is happening in a culture at that time, and what we do today has as much legitimacy as whatever people did in 1650 or 1728 or whatever, in a sense: what we find fun to do, for for our own innocent pleasure, so far as it is consistent with the values of our own time, has the same kind of contemporary legitimacy that we sometimes would like to re-create for other periods. In other words, ALL of the things we like to do with the various forms of ECD which people find fun to do have some kind of place. We don't have to like them all, or restrict ourselves to one form. It is nice to distinguish between the differences, too, but even that isn't required for the enjoyment of them by some of us. However, the enjoyment is required if it is to continue to be a living tradition, which it truly is in that there is evidence that at least some of the dances that can be traced to the Playford era apparently have been in the active dance tradition continuously from then to the present time (e.g. Black Joak), with CS's revivial of interest in the traditional dances coming at precisely the right time to preserve this thread. The main point is that there needs to be room for more than one approach. Historical accuracy is sufficiently difficult to limit what one can do to a much smaller body of material than what we currently enjoy, and I would be loath to discard many wonderful dances simply because they are imperfect reconstructions of earlier ones. At the same time, I feel that it is important to recognize that we are not doing historical reconstruction when we are not, and not try to pass it off as historical either deliberately or accidently. Further, as has been realized in early music, there is MUCH to learn & to enjoy from the work of those who concentrate on historical reconstruction, and it would be folly to ignore this in dance. But we know that in the Playford era itself, it was a living tradition, & what was done at one place & one time was not the same as what was done ten miles away ten years later. Comment to the Brits: In my experience as an American "English Country Dancer", over here ECD doesn't map to Playford, but to Playford+Traditional+Contemporary English, and is distinguished from contra. Eric Arnold Ann Arbor ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:29:06 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 11:27:14 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603071627.AB06100-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lest anyone feels I am against historic performance (and I have received some email to that effect), let me clarify that the Barnes' book, which provoked my comments, is a fakebook for musicians working the contemporary social ECD scene. I would expect anyone interested in period arrangements to look elsewhere. I apologize if I come off sounding as though no one should dance Playford or play Playford for reasons other than social recreation. I just assume that because the topic is Peter's book--clearly a timely topic for this list--we are speaking for a certain dance culture and its needs. Mea culpa if that is taken as discouragement to discussion of historic dance. Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:43:23 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Authenticity etc. To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD Mailing List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Eric Arnold wrote: [plenty of stuff that I agree with snipped] > Comment to the Brits: In my experience as an American "English Country > Dancer", over here ECD doesn't map to Playford, but to > Playford+Traditional+Contemporary English, and is distinguished from contra. Depends where you are. In St. Louis, it *does* map to PLayford, with a few recent dances in Playford style; none of our callers is working on traditional dances. Pity, since they're good dances with great tunes, and adding them would give a broader perspective on this hybrid cultural form. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 12:57:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:01:09 -0500 (EST) From: morganj-AT- indyunix.iupui.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Harmonizing & History (was Re: The new Barnes book) To: HUGH-AT- edsug.com CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just caught Toby's mention of eye contact, and thought she'd got it upside down: all the emphasis I've had on eye contact has come from CDSS teachers, and is derived from the way they and EFDSS teach. It comes through a lot in their dance material and I think dates back to Sharp. I haven't seen much emphasis on it among contra callers, although now that the gypsy figure has been brought into contras there may be more attention paid to eye contact. Jim Morgan morganj-AT- indyunix.iupui.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:13:36 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 06:07:21 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603072314.SAA19149-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:59:58 +0100, Sheila Bosworth wrote: | Hi Sharon, you wrote: | | > as for the authenticity question, if you're in a performance | > group specializing in a certain era of dance, it's all well and | > good to try to have a consistent style, although nobody really can | > decipher those old written directions. | | As a EM performer and student of historical dance (I came to ECD from Ren | court dance), I would strongly disagree. | | While the instructions in Playford don't tell you when to do a specific foot | pattern (the instructions give geography telling you where to go, not how to | get there!), I think it is possible to dance the 17th & 18th c. dances with an | awareness and with an application of historical step patterns. | Actually, some of the dances in Playford were written down in Beauchamps/Feuillet notatation in the Receuil de Contredances (1706), two that come to mind are The Female Saylor/La Matellote and Lilliburlero/La Lirboulaire. From these you can get very precise indications of the steps that would have been used for these dances and others like them--at least at the turn of the century. I also heartily disagree, that "nobody really can decipher those old written directions". I've been doing Renaissance and Baroque dance for years, and feel comfortable both with the French and English Renaissance sources, and with Baroque sources in B/F notation. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 17:38:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:39:10 -0500 (EST) From: Erna-Lynne Bogue Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Steps, Authenticity and the like To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think the basic question a dancer, and dance leader, needs to ask is: what am I doing this for? If the intent is to re-create the sense of the original, to have something of the experience that people did at the time the dances were originally done, it *IS* possible to do that. But, as folks have pointed out, it requires not only "authentic" music but also learning a set of steps, re- interpreting dances from original instructions, learning/re-creating particular styles of steps (which are not immediately easy for the general person-on-the-street to pick up). To really re-create the feeling, one could go so far as to dance in poorly heated and poorly lit rooms without amplification, and of course with no one to prompt the dances. And I'm sure that there is a real joy that could be had in such an endeavor, although it's never been one that tempted me. The other path is to take the tunes, and the patterns, and interpret them in ways which are fun and approachable to modern people. When one starts to do this, there is a continuum of how much "adapting" to do, and how far one goes is a matter of taste. I once saw what purported to be Scottish country dancing at the Minnesota Ren Faire. It was a romp much more like the rowdiest of English village dancing than anything the RSCDS would recognize. In my eyes, these folks had gone "too far" in adapting. But for the crowd of spectators, the bawdy fun was exactly what they wanted, while the more sedate, elegant English country dancing we did seemed less fun. As Eric pointed out quite a while back, the constant use of the word "should" implies that the person using it has some standard against which to compare various options. Most of us do -- and rarely do we take the steps to clarify it for ourselves, much less state it openly so we all know what the options are. Erna-Lynne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | "To enjoy a thing exclusively is commonly to exclude yourself | | from the true enjoyment of it." Thoreau | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | Erna-Lynne Bogue / Univ of Michigan / ebogue-AT- umich.edu | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:28:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:24:57 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: "Bonnets So Blue" To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099EFEC.9D805908.13-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT [Reposted since there are twice as many people on the list now as when I posted it first, and it didn't get any response the last time.] Folks -- "Bonnets So Blue" has one of my favorite tunes, and should be a dead easy dance. (From memory: This is in the Community Dances Manual, and is just Right hands across, left hands back 1s take two hands and slip down the center and back to 2nd place, 2s moving up (prgsv) In ballroom hold, 1s and 2s dance round other couple ending in progressed place. Feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.) When I actually try this, it seems like there's an awful lot of music for the slip-down-the-center-and back, and dancers tend to pile up at the bottom of the set. Is this merely a feature of the dance, or is it something that should be fixed? (If the dancers are in the right mood, it's fun in itself, but not very tidy.) Should we be taking little teeny slips? (Not very satisfying.) Is there some convention for where the 1s should go when they fall out the bottom of the set, remembering that they need to stay in order or risk messing up the progression? Also, for dancing round the other couple, is there a good alternative to the polka step? The music is a jig in 6/8, not polka time (2/4), although you can make a polka fit it. A tangentially related anecdote: I recently called this dance at a cast party for a Christmas show consisting mostly of singers with little or no country dance experience (and many of them several sheets to the wind). I was surprised that the most difficult thing was getting the 1s to stop when they got back below the 2s, rather than going all the way back to place, and ended up instructing the 2s to stop their 1s and keep them from going too far, which worked. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 03:54:02 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 06:53:55 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603081153.GAA06815-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >... >I also heartily disagree, that "nobody really can decipher those old written >directions". I've been doing Renaissance and Baroque dance for years, and >feel comfortable both with the French and English Renaissance sources, and >with Baroque sources in B/F notation. > >Peggy In the case of the music, I was at a flute Masterclass with Peter Lloyd, a year ago, where he discussed the interpretation of this music. Since there are no recordings from this period, musicians are even more at a loss when it comes to recreating the sounds. But after many years of playing the old scores, today's musicians have discovered that only certain phrasings make musical sense. Thus they have "learned" the old style just by playing the notes so many times, that they have rediscovered the old musical phrases. Maybe the same thing will happen if you do the dances often enough? - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 06:38:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:44:06 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Boy, how to keep this straight?! Peggy Marcus zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) added to my reply to Sharon... >In email on Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:59:58 +0100, Sheila Bosworth wrote: >| While the instructions in Playford don't tell you when to do a specific foot >| pattern (the instructions give geography telling you where to go, not how to >| get there!), I think it is possible to dance the 17th & 18th c. dances >with an >| awareness and with an application of historical step patterns. >| >Actually, some of the dances in Playford were written down in >Beauchamps/Feuillet notatation in the Receuil de Contredances (1706), two >that come to mind are The Female Saylor/La Matellote and Lilliburlero/La >Lirboulaire. Thank you, Peggy, of course I should have mentioned the R. de Contredances! Thank you for covering my lapse! I think I did mention that I am working with Julia Sutton on a late 17th c. French MS which includes VERY detailed patterns with footwork and hands for many of the popular early ECD. I've only just begun, and I'm sure Julia will want to let folks know about it. It's about a year from completion. Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 06:46:55 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:52:46 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown replied to Peggy Marcus: >In the case of the music, I was at a flute Masterclass with Peter Lloyd, a >year ago, where he discussed the interpretation of this music. > >Since there are no recordings from this period, musicians are even more at >a loss when it comes to recreating the sounds. But after many years of >playing the old scores, today's musicians have discovered that only >certain phrasings make musical sense. > >Thus they have "learned" the old style just by playing the notes so many >times, that they have rediscovered the old musical phrases. Maybe the same >thing will happen if you do the dances often enough? Whoops?! Maybe I missed something here .. Walter, are you talking about people playing period instruments in period style? modern instruments in period style? some instruments in any old style? There are PLENTY of places to go to study historical performance practice for instrumental and vocal music of the Renaissance and Baroque -- even the early Classical periods. Watch out, the HIP (awful acronym for "Historically Informed Performance) world is about to take over Brahms and Schubert, too. Please, Walter, could you explain what you mean by your statements? I must have missed your point totally. Thanks, Sheila B Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 07:40:53 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:40:32 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603081540.KAA12465-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Whoops?! Maybe I missed something here .. Walter, are you talking about >people playing period instruments in period style? modern instruments in >period style? some instruments in any old style? > >There are PLENTY of places to go to study historical performance practice >for instrumental and vocal music of the Renaissance and Baroque -- even >the early Classical periods. Watch out, the HIP (awful acronym for >"Historically >Informed Performance) world is about to take over Brahms and Schubert, too. > >Please, Walter, could you explain what you mean by your statements? I >must have missed your point totally. > >Thanks, > >Sheila B Recreating old dances and old music is much the same problem. The information, which has come down to us, is enough to tell us approximately what they did, but not enouph for us to easily imitate them. To imitate dance, you really need to see a video, and for music we need to hear a tape. The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. The people who rediscovered the old musical phrases have been playing period instruments. But what they have learned can be readily transfered to modern instruments. The person who explained this, Peter Lloyd, is a Professor of Flute in Great Britain, and one of the top flute (modern Boehm system) teachers in the world. In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:27:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 12:33:26 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Whither Steps... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown to me: >>Whoops?! Maybe I missed something here .. [snip in my own post] >>Please, Walter, could you explain what you mean by your statements? I >>must have missed your point totally. >Recreating old dances and old music is much the same problem. The >information, which has come down to us, is enough to tell us approximately >what they did, but not enouph for us to easily imitate them. To imitate >dance, you really need to see a video, and for music we need to hear a >tape. > >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > >The people who rediscovered the old musical phrases have been playing >period instruments. But what they have learned can be readily transfered >to modern instruments. The person who explained this, Peter Lloyd, is a >Professor of Flute in Great Britain, and one of the top flute (modern >Boehm system) teachers in the world. > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. OK, I'm going to take a deep breath, and count to, oh, about a million. Back in the old days (1978) when I did my graduate work in performance of early music at New England Conservatory I learned lots of things about EM performance. I unlearned lots of things about playing modern instruments. I learned that old and new often times don't agree. I have also found that many many things which come quite naturally to me perhaps *because* I've been playing early instruments for so long (recorders, historical flutes -- never did the silver flute thing -- viols and keyboard) and because I've been teaching them for so long I take much of what I do for granted. Like following the phrase of a dance -- let's take some of those wonderful Purcell dance tunes used in ECD as examples -- that sarabande rhythm has a double downbeat feeling; that a bouree has a single quarternote pick up, that an allemande is probably going to be tending towards double-dotting at the 8th note level... Once you know those things, you find them all over the place in the music...and in the dances, too. Walter, I think you're preaching to the converted here, but I think it's nice that you've found that for your own playing. Would that many other modern instrumentalists can, too! An interesting dichotomy for me is that -- keeping Playford style to Playford's own time here -- the musical pick-ups from a purely musical point of view require a lift so that one arrives on the downbeat. If you watch dancers who are doing Baroque or Baroque-style dance the exact opposite is true, that the preparation is down (sinking) before the downbeat (which is often a step where the heel is raised off the floor). Try getting a bunch of musicians to do that! What an adventure! I shall confess to being the person who took Toby to task about "periodness" in the music and the LACK of actually DANCING discussion on this list. As many of you many know, Alan Winston set up ECD after reading many wishes to discuss ECD on the RenDance list. FYI, the RenDance list deals about 99% with historical dance in a historical context, and discussion of ECD when dealing with 1st edition Playford is on the far edge of its limits. There is also another dance list for SCA types (Society for Creative Anachronism -- often subtitled The Middle Ages, not as they WERE, but as they Should have Been! -- and NO, I did not make that up), called SCA-dance. As I confessed privately to Toby and to Alan, I thought we would be discussing issues about the DANCES -- Sharp vs. what Playford actually says; just what is the best way to finish off this tricky figure, Playford contemporary dance sources..., etc. -- and I am most surprised (and quite disheartened) to find that we're spending a lot of time talking about what kind of chords Peter Barnes uses in his piano playing and stuff like this. I come to Playford and Playford-style from 15th c. and 16/17th c. Ren court dance; I come to the music from decades of playing early instruments in early music styles. I feel exhausted after a week on the topics that have shown up here and wonder if the past can ever be reclaimed by the directions that this has taken. So, please, folks, try to appreciate (as I am trying to appreciate) that there are many paths to dancing [enlightenment] and that you or my method is only one of many. Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:15:09 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:13:13 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT re: dance and music: sheila expressed what appeared to be concern about too much music discussion on what is supposed to be a dance list. i hope that music-making continues to be discussed, because the music and the dance would seem to be inextricably related, and the more one knows about one, the more one knows about the other. there are music issues that are well worth discussing; for example, 1-note vs. phrase-length intros to dances. this can go too far, of course, but on the whole, i think i would find a list that only spoke of how to do things in dance terms becoming boring rather quickly. viva a bit of variety..... sharon mckinley mckinley-AT- mail.loc.gov, and not an official spokes-dancer for any government agency ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:32:27 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:38:17 +0100 From: sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu (Sheila Bosworth) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > re: dance and music: > sheila expressed what appeared to be concern about too much > music discussion on what is supposed to be a dance list. No, what I am distressed by is a lot of time spent on playing dance music and hardly ANY time on actually DANCING... Sharon, I have no objection to people talking about PLAYing dance music, or even how long to hold notes or where to breathe or what instrument to play them on....but if you would be kind enough to re-read my post, you'll see WHERE this list came from and what it was REASONABLE to expect the focus of this list to be. The other lists WHENCE this list came do just that. The focus is DANCE, not the MUSIC, although music is certainly included within relevant topics. The other lists deal with reconstruction, conflict resolution of differing source material, etc... ...and I DON'T see that being discussed here... I am expressing my frustration at that lack. Somehow, I feel that discussion Peter Barnes' chord patterns and are they really appropriate to other dance bands is NOT what this list was set up to be about. If it was, then I'm obviously in the wrong place. Sheila Beardslee Bosworth sheilab-AT- biosun.harvard.edu Editor, Boston Early Music News 29 Main St, Acton MA 01720-3505 voice 508/263.9926 fax 508/263.2366 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:48:47 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: music and dance steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ECD-AT- playford) Message-ID: <9603081847.AA14215-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay here is a pithy one, who should lead the dance? Musician or top couple? one to chew over, and nothing to do with exact music. Another problem is who tells you when you are wrong?!! Other dilemmas of an on going morris team soon. Craig Turner. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:52:56 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 01:46:30 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Lorin MS To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603081854.NAA22908-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:44:06 +0100, Sheila Bosworth wrote: | | I think I did mention that I am working with Julia Sutton on a late 17th c. | French MS which includes VERY detailed patterns with footwork and hands | for many of the popular early ECD. I've only just begun, and I'm sure Julia | will want to let folks know about it. It's about a year from completion. | | | Sheila Beardslee Bosworth Sheila, This is VERY exciting, and I'm anxiously awaiting it! I'm assuming this is the Andre Lorin collection of country dances? I've never seen anything from this--so I'm thrilled to hear you and Julia are working to make it accessible to the rest of us. Oh boy--now I'm going to be on pins and needles waiting for it! Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 11:40:41 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:41:41 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: music and dance steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960308134141.1448-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What dance are you doing? Where? Under what circumstances? Your answer depends on these and other variables too. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 11:49:46 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 12:04:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:05:31 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Whither Steps... To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960308140531.1448-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sheila: I'm at work, away from my sources, but here are a couple of thoughts on your frustration: First, Peter Barnes has set chords to Playford melodies, and suggested a number of sources for them. Many of these dances are from your Playford 1st edition. He is dealing with material I hold dear in a way that raises a number of concerns. "ECD" or "Playford.Slace" or whatever is a way of my finding out I am not alone in these and similar concerns about the music, not Mr. Barnes per.se. Second, as you well know, music and dance movement combine to form an incredible whole, when all works right, that neither can be by itself. To talk about one and not the other is to do injustice to both. Third, it's been awhile since I tackled this in a formal way, but I recall that even in what we generally refer to as the "Baroque Period" in music, one of the main functions of the bar-line or measure line was to aid in organizing the music, not necessarily to indicate strong and weak (and even weaker) beats. This helps explain, at least to me, your description of the various dance music forms. Even a casual glance at a random selection of Playford tunes, in their original appearance, will reveal some tunes that start at an odd place in the measure or the triple time tune that somehow got cast into a duple time framework. "Cool, careful reality is superior to inappropriate angst and hand- wringing." McIntyre John M. Forbes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 12:58:37 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 15:57:03 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: music and dance steps To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603082057.PAA13637-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Okay here is a pithy one, who should lead the dance? >Musician or top couple? >one to chew over, and nothing to do with exact music. >Another problem is who tells you when you are wrong?!! > >Other dilemmas of an on going morris team soon. > >Craig Turner. In Balkan dancing, which is usually done in a circle, the musicians follow the tempo of the dancer who is leading the line. Often in these countries, you pay the musicians to play your tune, and then you get to lead your dance! - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:14:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:09:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul J. Stamler" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Sheila Bosworth wrote: > The other lists WHENCE this list came do just that. The focus > is DANCE, not the MUSIC, although music is certainly included > within relevant topics. > > The other lists deal with reconstruction, conflict resolution of differing > source material, etc... ...and I DON'T see that being discussed here... > > I am expressing my frustration at that lack. > > Somehow, I feel that discussion Peter Barnes' chord patterns and > are they really appropriate to other dance bands is NOT what this > list was set up to be about. If it was, then I'm obviously in the > wrong place. Sheila, if you're interested in seeing more discussion about reconstruction, resolution, etc., *post about it*. IMHO, as a musician who plays for ECD, this place is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss aspects of the music *as well as* the dancing itself. I'd much rather see the concerns integrated in the maillist, as they are in the dances. We could, of course, set up a separate mailing list devoted entirely to musical issues, but I suspect that if we did, the musicians would seldom see what the dancers were talking about, and vice versa, and I think that would be a decidedly unhealthy situation. Check out rec.folk-dancing for a good example of how *all* the concerns of dancers, callers, and musicians can co-exist and cross-fertilize. We've been, in the week this group has existed, talking about a current issue raised by the publication of an important new book. No doubt other issues will arise, ranging from dance steps to food to sexual harassment on the dance floor to acoustics to...all the things that concern a dance community. And that is how it should be. Peace. Paul ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 21:15:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition (Dance & Music, No 6 by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) Hardcover List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 Published by Pendragon Pr Publication date: July 1992 ISBN: 0945193319 Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 03:08:10 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 06:07:46 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Re: DANCE AND MUSIC To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603091107.GAA27156-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >... >Sheila, if you're interested in seeing more discussion about >reconstruction, resolution, etc., *post about it*. IMHO, as a musician >who plays for ECD, this place is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss >aspects of the music *as well as* the dancing itself. I'd much rather see >the concerns integrated in the maillist, as they are in the dances. We >could, of course, set up a separate mailing list devoted entirely to >musical issues, but I suspect that if we did, the musicians would seldom >see what the dancers were talking about, and vice versa, and I think that >would be a decidedly unhealthy situation. >... >Paul When I first started doing International Folk Dancing, about 15 years ago, we were taught that a "Kolo" was the general name Balkan circle dances. Later at a Balkan workshop, I learned that a "Kolo" is actually a big party which includes feasting, music, and dance. The circle dance "Kolo" was just part of the entire event and didn't have any special name. If fact, some Balkan languages don't even have a word for dance, even though they are famous for it. So this separation of culture into cuisine, music, dance, ... is really a symtom of modern specialist thinking. - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 07:43:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 22:37:15 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603091545.KAA08397-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:17:05 -0400, Mary Beth Goodman wrote: | Anyone heard of this book? I was searching in http://www.amazon.com which | is an interesting place to, as Marshall Barron would say, rummage: | | A Work Book by Kellom Tomlinson : | Commonplace Book of an Eighteenth-Century | English Dancing Master, a Facsimile Edition | (Dance & Music, No 6 | | by Kellom Tomlinson , Jennifer Shennan(Editor) | | Hardcover | List: $32.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $32.00 | Published by Pendragon Pr | Publication date: July 1992 | ISBN: 0945193319 | | Mary Beth Goodman | I have a copy of it. Jennifer Shennan is a Baroque dancer in New Zealand. I met her at the Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop. The manuscript turned up in New Zealand a few years ago, and the owners contacted Jennifer and some other Baroque folks, including my friend Baroque violinist Bronwen Pugh, just to try and find out whether the manuscript had any value or not. The book includes biographical and contextual material on Tomlinson, provenance of the MSS, commentary on the dances included, and a facsimile reproduction of the MSS itself. All of the dances are in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation. The dances in it are: Published elsewhere: Mr. Caverley's Slow Minuitt 5 Dances by Louis Pecour from the 1704 Recueil de Dances Sarabande pour deux hommmes Entree pou un Homme et une Femme Entree a Deux Sarabande a Deux Entre Espagnolle pour un Homme et une Femme Not published elsewhere: Minevit [Minuet] for a Woman Rigadon for a Woman Entree (Rigadon) for a Man Entree (for a Man and a Woman) Canary (for a Man and a Woman) Saraband for a Man Most of the new dances were reconstructed and performed at Stanford in 1994. I did the minuet and rigadon for a woman, which are both _very_ easy. Some of the others are considerably more difficult. None of the dances in the book are country dances, unfortunately. So, if you're not interested in theatrical pieces and/or court danses a deux, you probably wouldn't be interested in this book. If you are, it is an interesting and valuable new source. Peggy Lamberson ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 09:23:08 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Robb Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Shrewsbury Lasses To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was looking at a friend's copy of Keller and Shrimer and noticed that the K&S version of this dance had A, B1, B2. The facsimile of an old manuscript at the bottom had only A and B1. (I forget who's manuscript it was. T-something, I seem to recall.) B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing it in three couple sets. I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have any idea when B2 came into being? Christine ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:18:33 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0500 From: Cadwal yr Caerfor Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <3141D911.5328-AT- ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I intend to insert my two cents worth and ask for some help now. I have been reading thru Scotch Cap from 1st ed (1933 ed reprint) and I am having a little trouble with some of it. Admittedly, I have not tabulated many dances (in fact zero that I would really attribute to myself). I strongly believe in "and this is an exercise left for the student" but I also learn strongly by example. I would appreciate it if someone would post/mail me a tab of this dance that they have or know by heart (even if it is in general terms). I am familiar with ECD somewhat (as danced in the SCA) and know enough of them that the structure and very basic steps are well known, but some of the interpretations get me sometimes. Particularly, the first figure in Scotch Cap seems to be saying: Lord 2 and 3 back a double while Lady 1 and 2 do likewise Now they cross (meaning ??? Lady 1 and Lady 2 cross with Lord 2 and 3 with Lord 2 ending in the Lady 1 spot with her in his -OR- Lady 1 and Lady 2 exchanged as do the men (I doubt it)) Lord 1 and Lady 3 do a similar movement. So, advice? tab? Also, and I have a feeling I will get shouted at...is there an archive of tabs somewhere? Cadwal -- Two can eat as cheaply as one...if one doesnt eat. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 15:04:12 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:00:18 -0500 From: mes-AT- world.std.com (Mary E Stafford) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603092300.AA03918-AT- world.std.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cadwal- As a Boston area ECdancer, I haven't a clue what "tabs" are, but as to the exchange you are asking about, indeed it is the first interpretation: Lady 1 and 2 exchange places with Lord 2 and 3; then Lord 1 and Lady 3 cross to each other's places. Most Playford dances are written out in modern terms, because there is so much danced these days. You should be able to connect, if not here, with people wh can give you clear instructions (though they probably won't use "lord" and "lady"). MaryS. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 19:11:32 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:10:14 -0500 From: EngDancer-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960309221012_442426652-AT- emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cadwal- For those of us who come to ECD more obliquely and not through the halls of EM academe, a wonderful beginning place is: THE PLAYFORD BALL 103 Early Country Dances 1651-1820 As Interpreted by Cecil Sharp and His Followers Kate Van Winkle Keller and Genevieve Shimer A copublication of A Cappella Books and The Country Dance and Song Society 2nd Edition The dance figures are described very clearly, includes the music for each dance and often gives copies of original MS along with tantalizing bits of historical background. When I began teaching a beginner's ECD class with Joyce Crouch of Pleasures of the Town, I was advised to begin with this book and happily pass that advice on. Mary Jones ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 19:20:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 22:21:50 -0400 From: mgoodman-AT- albany.net (Mary Beth Goodman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Mary! I can't believe I'm meeting you in *this* list! ;-D Mary Beth Goodman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 21:19:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Linden Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Scotch Cap To: Cadwal yr Caerfor CC: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is how I notated it for my WWW site (following the account in "The Playford Ball") First Figure A 8 Up a double and back twice B1 4 First and second ladies facing second and third men, balance back and change places diagonally 4 First man change with third lady B2 8 Repeat, ending in original places Second Figure A 8 Partners side twice B1 4 Take hands along the sides, and lines fall back a double and forward 4 First and third men, first and third ladies, second couple: arm right and fall back to place B2 4 Lines fall back as before 4 Turn partner both hands Third Figure A 8 Partners arm right and left B1 2 Men four slips up, ladies four slips down, ending in a line in the center (third man facing first lady). 6 Third man and first lady being progressive hey, handing back to place B2 8 Do the same with men slipping down and ladies slipping up. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:56:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:54:26 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Shrewsbury Lasses To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603101754.JAA17207-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >B2 is the part of the dance when the first couple who are now in second >place move to third place. It completes the dance very nicely when doing >it in three couple sets. > >I tried asking on rec.folk-dancing, but got no reply. Anyone here have >any idea when B2 came into being? > >Christine I've just looked over it in my copy of _The_Playford_Ball_. It looks to me like it was a longways dance for as many as will, with triple minor-sets. If the figures given for the 1780 version are done slowly, they can take up all the music of B1 and B2 (as indicated in the facsimile). In the modern version they are done quickly (including some skipping steps) to B1. I would guess that the dance was speeded up and the figures of the modern B2 added by W. S. Porter, who is credited with a 1931 interpretation of the dance. Porter would also be responsible for the three-couple set. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 03:44:14 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: SHARON MCKINLEY Subject: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ------------------------------------------------------------- BELOW ARE THE DISTRIBUTION LIST ENTRIES THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT TO BUT CANNOT BE REPLIED TO: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------- X-ListName: Discussion of modern and historical English Country Dance Warnings-To: <> Errors-To: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:48:05 -0500 From: tkoosman-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Steps (was BANDS AND MORE) To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603081948.AA24349-AT- utkux.utcc.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Walter Brown wrote, >The point is that we can "fill in" the missing information, from the past, >just by repeating as much as they have told us. With practice, we will >eventually re-learn the entire musical phrase or dance movement. > ... > >In other words, the music and dance of the past, is still inside us. Just >keep doing the basic steps or notes and it will eventually appear. I'm not especially knowledgeable about period music and dance but these comments invite skepticism. Music is cultural, not genetic, beyond what proceeds from the physical principals of harmonics. We know a lot about the past (someone does, anyway, not necessarily me) and can interpolate what we don't know to produce a satisfactory reconstruction. But how can you validate the interpolated material? Are you saying that new discoveries about past practice have in fact borne out techniques that were developed in ignorance, more often than compelled us to revise them? That isn't the way history or science generally work. The cultural historian Robert Darnton has argued that the key to understanding the past is to examine those things which do *not* resonate: the jokes we don't get, the morals we reject. The goals of those who want to understand history on its own terms, then, are in conflict with the more popular uses to which history is put, to inspire, flatter, reflect, and otherwise serve the present. I'm afraid I belong to the unwashed masses on this list, of dancers and musicians who do ECD because it feels good, with backbeat and loose undergarments. But I see Sheila's point. I should never have said "should"--what you should do depends on what your goals are. I *do* want to talk about how to play the damn tunes, for practical, not historical, purposes. If not here, where? Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tennessee USA tkoosman-AT- utkux.utk.edu http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~tkoosman ------------------------------------------ THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ABOVE MESSAGE SUBJECT OF THE REPLY: RE: STEPS (WAS BANDS AND-REPLY ------------------------------------------ toby; thanks. sharon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 05:42:17 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500 From: RSokoll-AT- aol.com Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Peggy Lamberson: Dear Peggy, I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I finally remember where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a country dance. It might be the same one. Sincerely, Katrina Clifford Sokoll (used to be Katrina Clifford Thomason, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...) Agnes Scott College, Class of '79 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:35:52 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Scotch Cap To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU CC: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Message-ID: <960311083707.282-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I assume by the 1933 edition you are referring to the Bridgewater/Mellor (at least I think that's who they are; I'm at work, away from my materials) edition. Sorry, this work is not to be trusted. Better to to get Margaret Dean-Smith's facsimile or, better, yet, the various editions with scotch cap can be obtained from any number of sources. For openers, try the Lloyd Shaw Foundation Archives c/o Dr. William Litchman, 1620 Los Alamos SW, Albuquerque, NM 87104. I know they have complete copies (and Bill has some originals) of all the Dancing Master series. John Forbes/Baker University Library/Baldwin, KS ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:15:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:08:43 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Tomlinson Workbook To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603111516.KAA13406-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <960311084057_347690706-AT- emout04.mail.aol.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:40:58 -0500, RSokoll-AT- aol.com wrote: | To Peggy Lamberson: | | Dear Peggy, | | I have seen your name come up several times on this mailing list, and I | finally remember | where I've seen it before! Are you an alum of Agnes Scott College, Class of | '77 or '78? If you are, then I do remember you. I was a member of Studio | Dance Theatre, a year or two behind you. Yes!! I graduated in '78. I do remember you, Katrina. I hadn't realized that you were interested in historical/country dance. Is this something youv'e gotten into since ASC? | By the way, you listed that the dance "Canary" (for a Man and a Woman) is not | published elsewhere. There is a dance called "Canary" in Thoinot Arbeau's | "Orchesography" (translated by Mary Stewart Evans, 1967 Dover Publications, | ISBN 0-486-21745-0). It is for a man and a woman, and definitely not a | country dance. It might be the same one. | There are bunches of Canaries. It was a type of dance just like the pavane, galliard, minuet, etc. The conventional wisdom is that the canary was named for the Canary islands, which were discovered in the 16th century. Renaissance canaries often have lots of stamping steps in them which (it is thought) were meant to mimic the dances of savages (from the Canary islands and elsewhere). The canary in Tomlinson is a Baroque dance which would have retained only the name and the fiery, lively character. So far as I know, the one in the Tomlinson workbook was choreographed by Tomlinson, and never written down elsewhere. It's delightful to hear from you. Where are you and what are you up to? Are you an active English Country dancer? We had a GREAT ECD festival in Decatur last year. Sarah Campbell and her husband were there. If we do it again this year, maybe you could come? Take care, Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:30:38 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: set and turn To: ecd-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:57:35 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 09:31:39 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (ECD-AT- playford) Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:11:20 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:15:48 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: RE: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:46:15 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:51:07 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could be done either side to side, or forward then back. One caveat, it was considered *acceptable* to do balance' onto a flat foot, tho probably only old folks did it that way. I also have been trying to think if I've ever done setting to the left first. Again, I can't think of an example, but that doesn't mean it's never done. One thing to look at is the step which precedes the set. Usually that step will determine how awkward/easy it is to go in a particular direction next. I believe that "that again" means exactly what it says. Do the same thing again (same direction, etc.). Again, that's how I was taught--no reference. I'll have to see what I can turn up in support of this practice! (Happy Hunting! ) Hope this helps, rather than fogging up the issue! Interesting question, BTW. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:18:45 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:51 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603121420.JAA04643-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT References: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: | Starting balance' to the right is enough of a | convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is | nothing to indicate which way you go first. | | | Peggy | Boy, this is what I get for answering stuff at midnight. I don't believe I wrote that. Yes, the notation _does_ indicate that you start on the right foot first. The pin for the right foot step symbol is slightly ahead of the pin for the left foot step symbol along the line of the tract. AAAARRRGGHH, and apologies. Peggy ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:33:51 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Image To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:47:30 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:59:22 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Subscription To: 'ECD' Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subscribe Tim Scott ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:26:16 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:13:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: set and turn To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:53:43 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ECD Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subscribe Tim Scott ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:29 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:23:49 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians To: ECD-AT- SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:42 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:39 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.690953CA.1-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #2 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: (2 msgs) Finding Musicians set and turn (3 msgs) Subscription Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Message-ID: <31460018-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing Subject: Message-ID: <0099F3B6.BCA65468.40-AT- ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> Tim -- Send to ECD-REQUEST-AT- playford.SLAC.stanford.edu, not ECD, if you wish to subscribe. -- Alan =============================================================================== Alan Winston --- WINSTON-AT- SSRL750.BITNET or WINSTON-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 415/926-3056 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210 =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:23:36 -0500 From: ab684-AT- freenet.carleton.ca (Walter Brown) Subject: Finding Musicians Message-ID: <199603130023.TAA23920-AT- freenet3.carleton.ca> A couple of years ago, the Ottawa English Country Dance Club organized a one day musicians' workshop. They arranged for some experienced players, from Peterborough, Ontario, and invited several local folk musicians to come. The idea had come from another ECD club, which had been successful at starting their own live music. I attended the workshop with a friend who plays recorder. It was very useful and we learned quite a bit about ECD music styling. We have performed ECD music, as a duet (flute & recorder), a few times since then. Soon I hope to get my Scottish folk musician friends (enough for a complete Country Dance band) to play the English dances too! I think this muddle, along with some Irish jigs, is where Canadian Square Dancing came from... - Walter Brown, Ottawa, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: vskowron-AT- geos.rdrc.rpi.edu Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <9603121549.AA01010-AT- geo7.rdrc.rpi.edu> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | One thing that I have noticed when setting to the right first is that the next figure flows more naturally. If it is a turn single, you have space for the move to your right. If you are going to be doing something with the other person (two-hand turn, pass by the right shoulder, etc.), the setting has started you off in the right direction. With regards to how you set, I find myself to that of the other person. After all, we are dancing with other people. Also, I suspect that, even in highly stylized situations like a Playford Ball (perhaps even especially there), the opportunity for flirtation was important, and individual style was an important part of that (eighteenth century body language?). Victor Skowronski ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:23:53 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603121923.LAA01876-AT- phoenix> The thought occurs to me that Playford defines "set" as "a single to one hand, and a single to the other." If it were done invariably to the right, I would think that he could have said "a single to the right hand..." I haven't looked it up recently, but I think there was a dance (perhaps Bonny Breast Knot?) in Cecil Sharp's _Country_Dance_Book_, part 1, which called for a set to the left. This would have been a modern traditional dance. Alex Clark cclark-AT- vicon.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) From: FORBES-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <960312141442.4b6-AT- GEORGE.BAKERU.EDU> Yes indeed, part 1 is not, as I recall, given to the Dancing Master oeuvre. Only parts 2, 3, 4, and 6. Part five, you'll recall, deals with the Kentucky Running Set. Forbes/Baker University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott, Tim Mr" Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <3145C92F-AT- fsc-gw.vafb.af.mil> Subscribe Tim Scott ------------------------------ End of ECD Digest V1 #2 ****************************** ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:58 PST Sender: owner-ecd-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:51:55 PST From: system-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Reply-To: ECD-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu To: ecd-digest-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu Message-ID: <0099F3CD.72F0268E.7-AT- playford.slac.stanford.edu> Subject: ECD Digest V1 #3 ECD Digest Tue, 12 Mar 1996 Volume 1 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Image (4 msgs) set and turn (5 msgs) Tomlinson Workbook Send digest submissions to. . . . . . ECD-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . .LISTSERV-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU or ECD-REQUEST-AT- PLAYFORD.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . .winston-AT- SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Archives for ECD are on playford.slac.stanford.edu FTP as user "anonymous" with any password; then "cd arch". Past issues of the digest are in the "ECD/MAIL" directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "CP. Turner" Subject: Image Message-ID: <9603111730.AA08311-AT- mail.bris.ac.uk> Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Craig. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:53 -0500 From: Joe Shelby Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <9603111256.ZM1515-AT- reddog.autometric.com> On Mar 11, 5:30pm, CP. Turner wrote: > Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun > side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of > hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. > Any ideas on revolutionising the image? move to america? seriously, it seems that in america dancers of whatever genre seem to have more respect for dancers/dancing from other genres...Morris is highly respected here by Contra, English, and Scottish country dancers throughout the east coast, and there is quite an amount of overlap of dancers between the genre (Especially w/ Contra). i've seen a few exceptions of course...(high-technique dancers, e.g. Scottish or Irish, sometimes harp on contra as being "too easy"; the young competing girls in scottish highland don't really respect social scottish country dancing very much (tho that might just be the age)...) joe -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Joseph Shelby : Software Engineer jshelby-AT- autometric.com 5301 Shawnee Rd. Alexandria, VA 22312-2333 (703) 658-4071 http://www.io.com/~acroyear I'm not sure who he is, but I've heard he's got his hand in a lot of things. --Kermit, about Jim Henson xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:15 +0000 (UT) From: MGK-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK (Martin Kiff) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <0099F2FF342BD340.E9A3-AT- NEWTON.NPL.CO.UK> > .... Morris .... Any ideas on revolutionising the image? Play them the 'Morris On' CD perhaps... and the Morris list has had some discussions recently about other recently recorded Morris tunes played with a certain edge to them... (I rather like the Edward II reggae versions). Regards, Martin Kiff mgk-AT- newton.npl.co.uk / mgk-AT- webfeet.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:32:16 +0000 (GMT) From: hmitchell-AT- tcp.co.uk (Howard Mitchell) Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <199603121432.OAA22890-AT- zeus.tcp.co.uk> Craig, I wonder if you might get further advice on this subject from the Morris Dance discussion list. See http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/mddl/faq/ for details. There was a discussion on image recently which seems to be quite different in the UK and in other places. For my part as bandmaster of Manchester Morris Men, we have difficulty attracting new dancers and musicians which is reflected in the average age of the team (probably over 40!). This in itself then alters our image. A few years ago when Manchester was competing for the Olympic Games, I naively wrote to the organizers offering to put the olympic bid logo on our advertising material and offering our services in whatever form they thought suitable. The answer was short and (not so) sweet. There's a long way to go on the image front! Howard Mitchell High Jinks Country Dance Band Merlin Country Dance Band Manchester Morris Men >Right on the back of the who's in charge of tempo debate, here is another >little teaser. I live in jolly old England home of the Morris Dance and >full of historic dance and music culture. So my abiding aim is to locate >musicians who would enjoy playing folk music for fun. Within our team we >have a few dancers who can play instruments, but no muscians who can play. > >Asking round to recruit a few of the above, for what is essentially a fun >side. I find mentioning the word Morris either provokes giggles of >hilarity or the person concerned clams up and never speaks to me again. >Any ideas on revolutionising the image? > >Craig. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: set and turn Message-ID: Hello, everyone-- I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. To the Left or to the Right first? Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to the side? I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Thanks, Lizbeth Langston ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Ian Engle Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, lizbeth langston wrote: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are > re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to > the side? > I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you > are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. Probably this won't be a useful answer, but... It all depends. Upon the music (determines amount of bounce or gravity), upon the venue the dance will be done in (as above, social vs. serious demonstration), and upon what period of the country dance you are trying to represent (it probably was not standard from time to time, place to place,) Also, "that again" very seriously depends upon the dance, I believe. Obviously the lack of a nice diagram like the ones in Receuil is infuriating when dealing with the set and turn. Frightfully inconsiderate of them, wasn't it? --Sion ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:43:55 -0800 From: cclark-AT- vicon.net (Carolyn Clark) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603111843.KAA23421-AT- phoenix> Lizbeth Langston said: > I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are >re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. > To the Left or to the Right first? > Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? Practically always to the left the first time, and to the right the second time. I have no evidence to support this for Playford dances, but there is a little evidence that the figure was done this way in the measures which were still being done in Playford's time. From the Queen's Almaine, the same figure (or slightly different figures occupying the same part of the dance) in various sources: "A double forward & a double backe to single sides face to face & turne a double round in your place that part over againe with the other... [figure apparently repeats later on with forward and back] then sett to singles face to face & turn a double round in your place as much with the other foote..." "[fwd. & back] .2. singles syde & a .d. rounde on your lefte hande. [fwd. & back] .2. S. syde & a .d. round on your right hande ..." (.d. = double) "[fwd. & back, set & turn] a duble forwarde with the right legge & backe with the left legge [set & turn, etc.]" (the writer found it necessary to specify right and left only for the doubles forward and back the second time) "A Double forwards and a double back with the left Legg turne face to face, and sett and turne with the Left Legg A Double forward and a double back with the Right legg turne face to face and sett and Turne with the right legg, ..." (I would assume that "with the Left Legg" (for instance) means beginning with the left leg.) All instructions are quoted as transcribed by D. W. Wilson in "Dancing in the Inns of Court" (Historical Dance Vol. 2. No. 5. 1986/7). The transcriptions of Cunningham in his pamphlet _Dancing_in_the_Inns_of_Court_ are for the most part identical. The instructions, covering approximately the period 1600-1670, seem to be consistent in their preferences for doing it starting with the left leg the first time, or the right leg the second time, or one way the first time and the other way the second time, or two or three of these. This is consistent with the Renaissance customs of beginning most dances with the left foot, and doing some steps or figures alternately with the left and the right. The most specific one is the only one written (apparently) after the early editions of Playford (nearly identical instructions appear in another manuscript in the same hand). And the second quotation here might be taken as implying that one started the double forward with the left foot the first time, but the right foot the second time. This would be entirely consistent with the alternation of feet described in the same quotation. A few other measures have setting, but there are no others in which any one dancer sets and turns (or even sets) twice without many other intervening figures. It is indicated several times in instructions for measures that the dancers set face to face with someone. The indication is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit. Playford was approximately contemporary with these instructions for the measures, and was (like the measures and some of the manuscripts describing them) associated with the Inns of Court (his shop was in one of them). I tend to assume that the dances in his books were done with the same kind of setting. This could hardly be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, but it is indicated by the only evidence that I know of. > How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to >the side? I do it directly to the side, since the instructions for measures only indicate that direction (except for the earliest instructions for certain dances, which might be describing different figures). I think I tend to set without bouncing, though I don't teach that it should be one way or the other. Alex Clark (known in the SCA as Henry of Maldon) cclark-AT- vicon.net Author of _Court_and_Country_Dances_of_the_Renaissance_in_England_and_France_. Contact me for purchasing information. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:44:18 -0500 From: zorro-AT- netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: set and turn Message-ID: <199603120452.XAA29473-AT- jupiter.netdepot.com> In email on Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:24:37 -0800 (PST), lizbeth langston wrote: | Hello, everyone-- | I have a few questions about the set and turn for those of you who are | re-constructing Playford, since I have seen the figure done many ways. | To the Left or to the Right first? | Is "that again" also to the same direction or to the opposite direction? | How do you perform the set: with or without a bounce/lilt? directly to | the side? | I would like to know the assumptions you are making, the evidence you | are using, and the logic you have used for your decisions. | Thanks, | Lizbeth Langston | | I am one of those who believes that the set evolved from the 17th century step balance', which probably evolved from singles done to the side in the Renaissance. There are numerous 17th c. contradances that are available in Beauchamps/Feuillet notation which use the balance', tho it is not followed by a turn. (One I happen to have on hand is the English dance, The Tost, which was published in The Tatler--I'm afraid I don't know what year. All the balance's in this begin on the right foot. I'm pretty sure Les Contrefaiseurs uses balance', too, but I'll have to check on that.) I've been trying to think if I've ever seen a dance where a balance' was done first on the left foot, then the right. I'm not going to say it never happens, but I can't think of an example. I can think of many dances that use balance' starting to the right (if you want some citations, let me know). In any 17th-18th c. country dance that would have been done using minuet step, you certainly would have started to the right, as the minuet step always starts on the right (and leaves the right foot free at the end, to begin the next step). Starting balance' to the right is enough of a convention that, when it is notated in country dance notations, there is nothing to indicate which way you go first. When I do "modern" English country dance, I always do setting with lilt. (I have no reference for this--it's just the way I was taught by caller/teacher Ginger Pyron, who is very knowledgeable.) If setting did evolve from the balance', this would be appropriate, as balance' is done onto demi-pointe. How much lift, and how much you are going to the side, as opposed to forward and back, depends on the particulars of the dance. Balance' could b